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MacBytes
May 16, 2005, 12:29 PM
http://www.macbytes.com/images/bytessig.gif (http://www.macbytes.com)

Category: Microsoft
Link: Microsoft employees claim Apple lifted 'Spotlight' idea straight out of early builds of Longhorn (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20050516132907)

Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug

mkrishnan
May 16, 2005, 12:37 PM
Tiger *is* an early build of Longhorn. One and half years early, at least! :p ;) :D

rockandrule
May 16, 2005, 12:42 PM
They're just trying to cover their own butts since one of their higher ups promised that this would be the first exclusively Microsoft built OS by them.

iGary
May 16, 2005, 12:48 PM
Micorsoft sure has been spreading the FUD lately.

iPod's dead.

Spotlight ours.

Duh.

PlaceofDis
May 16, 2005, 12:53 PM
wow, MS likes to talk **** these days dont they?

i thought their great search might have been on hold? i think they are starting to fear the competition now. aren't they just a great company?!

nagromme
May 16, 2005, 12:55 PM
MS really can't win this one... but it's interesting that they're feeling defensive :D

If MS did search "first" and then Apple got the idea from Longhorn, then they sure worked fast... they surpassed MS's head start and went from zero to a complete as-you-type solution integrated with the OS, in a fraction the time it has taken MS to even get started... with Longhorn still just a vague hope for late next year. Why so slow, MS, if Apple can start late and still do so much more in so little time? Why, I hear that Apple even has a robust new metadata system under the hood, still largely untapped, waiting to make Spotlight even better....

But all evidence is that Apple was working on Spotlight long before Longorn was shown. Spotlight is inspired by iTunes search, Sherlock, even BeOS (apple hired someone from Be) and, of course, the OBVIOUS need that people have always had for searching. It's just that the time has come to do it well.

Besides, MS is about the fifth company to make an awkward, slap-on, non-instant, non OS-integrated search bar add-on for Windows. They weren't even first with the half-way solutions!

See also this article:

http://money.cnn.com/2005/05/16/technology/personaltech/microsoft_search.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes

The latest Mac OS, called Tiger, includes a fast desktop search tool called "Spotlight."

Christopher Payne, vice president of MSN Search, said Microsoft's desktop search tool was more flexible, offering users the ability to exclude sensitive information from the search index.
Funny, I see a prefs panel in Tiger that does that too. Not to mention, if you use File Vault, that stuff is indexed within the vault. That's right: if your data's encrypted, then the index OF that data is automatically encrypted too.

dejo
May 16, 2005, 12:57 PM
The new toolbar promises to give a taste what search experience Longhorn is expected to bring.

So what will Longhorn search have that this new MSN Desktop Search doesn't have, since this is only a taste? Tabs perhaps? Or integration with the OS?...

Applespider
May 16, 2005, 01:06 PM
We need a 'yawn' smiley just for stories like this

I agree completely with Nagromme's points on speed of development and earlier iTunes search etc

capacity
May 16, 2005, 01:26 PM
How about LaunchBar from back in 2001?

keysersoze
May 16, 2005, 01:41 PM
How about LaunchBar from back in 2001?

Next thing you know, Microsoft will be complaining they invented Dashboard and that Apple stole it. Oops, I mean Konfabulator.

:D

mkrishnan
May 16, 2005, 01:45 PM
Next thing you know, Microsoft will be complaining they invented Dashboard and that Apple stole it. Oops, I mean Konfabulator.

*counts seconds until thread devolves into an argument over who owns props to GUIs* ;) :eek: :D

tace
May 16, 2005, 01:50 PM
As obsurd a thought it is that Apple Stole search/spotlight from M$, let's remember who stole what from who first. Ofcourse half of these M$ developers aren't old enough to remember those days ;) :eek:

PlaceofDis
May 16, 2005, 01:58 PM
We need a 'yawn' smiley just for stories like this

I agree completely with Nagromme's points on speed of development and earlier iTunes search etc

you mean a yawn likt this one? ;)

http://www3.telus.net/poojja/s/yawn.gif

iGary
May 16, 2005, 02:08 PM
Who cares who got who, whatever.

Apple's is obviously superior and it is here and now, not vaporware like Longhorn.

iJaz
May 16, 2005, 02:13 PM
If MS did search "first" and then Apple got the idea from Longhorn, then they sure worked fast... they surpassed MS's head start and went from zero to a complete as-you-type solution integrated with the OS, in a fraction the time it has taken MS to even get started... with Longhorn still just a vague hope for late next year. Why so slow, MS, if Apple can start late and still do so much more in so little time? Why, I hear that Apple even has a robust new metadata system under the hood, still largely untapped, waiting to make Spotlight even better....

But all evidence is that Apple was working on Spotlight long before Longorn was shown. Spotlight is inspired by iTunes search, Sherlock, even BeOS (apple hired someone from Be) and, of course, the OBVIOUS need that people have always had for searching. It's just that the time has come to do it well.

Besides, MS is about the fifth company to make an awkward, slap-on, non-instant, non OS-integrated search bar add-on for Windows. They weren't even first with the half-way solutions!

My thoughts exactly. Wow, Apple must be copying fast!
I actually think it's the other way around, as Steve Jobs said: "They can't even copy fast" :D

asif786
May 16, 2005, 02:38 PM
My thoughts exactly. Wow, Apple must be copying fast!
I actually think it's the other way around, as Steve Jobs said: "They can't even copy fast" :D

exactly; longhorn just shows how inefficient ms really are. as i've said before, anyone would think ms is paying their developers to be slow..!

oh, and lol at that steve jobs comment. i love his lil' quips at ms / billy g.

jimsowden
May 16, 2005, 02:46 PM
Name one innovative thing from Windows, just one. really, what have they thought up?

PlaceofDis
May 16, 2005, 02:48 PM
Name one innovative thing from Windows, just one. really, what have they thought up?

ummmm.... they recycle rather than trash? :p :rolleyes:

mainstreetmark
May 16, 2005, 02:57 PM
ummmm.... they recycle rather than trash? :p :rolleyes:

The arrow to denote an alias/shortcut?


Anyways, I can recall about 10 or so years ago that some Help program in windows had results-as-you-type. Not exactly meta-data, but just plain data.

The whole thing is really quite silly. "We thought up searching first!" It's an obvious path that the evolution of computers must go down. Who really cares who came up with it first -- It's always been here, now it's just better. I don't really even call this an invention.

Like the people that say that if Otis had not invented the elevator, there'd be no skyscrapers.

shamino
May 16, 2005, 02:59 PM
But all evidence is that Apple was working on Spotlight long before Longorn was shown. Spotlight is inspired by iTunes search, Sherlock, even BeOS (apple hired someone from Be) and, of course, the OBVIOUS need that people have always had for searching. It's just that the time has come to do it well.
Let's not forget Jef Raskin. His book The Humane Interface (http://jef.raskincenter.org/humane_interface/summary_of_thi.html) describes (among many other things) the need for a fast and robust search system. This way, users don't have to concern themselves with the mechanics of where their data is stored, and can simply focus on the data itself. (Actually, Jef was opposed to the whole concept of files and file names as well. If you have a sufficiently robust search system, and you have an inkling of what you're looking for, then you don't need to know what the file's name/location is or even that there is such a thing as a file.)

shamino
May 16, 2005, 03:01 PM
Like the people that say that if Otis had not invented the elevator, there'd be no skyscrapers.
If there were no elevators, then there would be no skyscrapers. This much is obvious.

But that's not the same as saying "if Otis didn't invent the elevator...". If he didn't, somebody else would have.

MontyZ
May 16, 2005, 03:05 PM
Everything Microsoft has ever sold has been "invented" by someone else, so, they don't have a leg to stand on with this argument. Sour grapes.

narco
May 16, 2005, 03:16 PM
If I remember correctly, isn't the Longhorn search based on a completely different technology? Well, maybe not completely different, but I remember reading that Spotlight is more of a basic version of the future Longhorn search thing. Still, if I also remember correctly, Spotlight production started before Longhorn. Did I read correctly?

Fishes,
narco.

shamino
May 16, 2005, 04:21 PM
If I remember correctly, isn't the Longhorn search based on a completely different technology? Well, maybe not completely different, but I remember reading that Spotlight is more of a basic version of the future Longhorn search thing. Still, if I also remember correctly, Spotlight production started before Longhorn. Did I read correctly?
All search is based, ultimately, on reading every file and building a database containing everything you find, working fromthe (usually reasonable) assumption that searching the database will be much faster than reading every file at the time of a search.

I was under the impression (based on Jobs' presentations) that Spotlight was integrated down into the file system, making it more efficient than would be possible with a standalone application. But after seeing many reports from actual users, I don't think this is what they're doing. There appears to be a utility program that runs in the background indexing files when they are created/changed. I assume this program gets OS-level support about when files are changed so it doesn't have to scan the entire drive looking for changes (the way Microsoft's FindFast utility does), but there doesn't seem to be any integration beyond this.

There is, of course, beautiful integration at the desktop/application level, but a good UI is rarely something that I would consider groundbreaking. Especially when the UI has been implemented in iTunes for over a year.

WRT Longhorn, I don't know what they're doing, so I can't say if Spotlight is similar. I know that the much-ballyhooed "WinFS" file system (which makes an entire drive a huge database that can be quickly indexed and searched) was dropped from Longhorn. MS's current search products (a suite of toolbars) don't appear very much different from everything that's come before (FindFast, Google, etc.)

As for who started first, we'll never know. Apple has been developing various search technologies for a long time (starting from Sherlock in, I think, MacOS 8). Microsoft has also been developing this for a long time (starting from FastFind in, I think, Office '95). And Jef Raskin wrote about the need for fast and accurate search technologies for quite a long time, and actually implemented some of these ideas in the Canon Cat.

aswitcher
May 16, 2005, 04:37 PM
I am pretty sure Apple will have or wll be getting a patent for Spotlight...MS cant do much about that.

ham_man
May 16, 2005, 04:45 PM
Man, Apple sure can copy fast. What, with the Spotlight being integrated into the whole OS and whatnot, that would be a big task to do in a little time... ;)

ReanimationLP
May 16, 2005, 04:56 PM
ummmm.... they recycle rather than trash? :p :rolleyes:

lol. Good one. ;)

SeaFox
May 16, 2005, 07:34 PM
I don't see how it really matters who "thought" of it first. They didn't patent it and Apple shipped with it first. They have nothing but their own delays to blame.

snkTab
May 16, 2005, 09:07 PM
Umm... is it just me, or don't we hear stories of MS paying big bucks to higher Apple employees.

I'm sure MS is just hiring them for the talent.

angelneo
May 16, 2005, 09:39 PM
This is so duh.... Desktop search has been around for a very long time. Apple just improves the whole thing. Even Google has their own version of desktop search....

cwtnospam
May 16, 2005, 10:03 PM
If MS did search "first" and then Apple got the idea from Longhorn, then they sure worked fast...
But they "love to be first!" Just ask Steve Balmer.

I'm loving this one! If they're seriously going to claim that they were first, then they have to admit to complete failure to execute the idea!

bousozoku
May 16, 2005, 10:22 PM
Name one innovative thing from Windows, just one. really, what have they thought up?

I like the file management features in the file browser so that u can rename something prior to saving a document. If it's not available in Tiger, it should be.

macFanDave
May 16, 2005, 10:36 PM
and it is a confused clunky clusterf-koo!

The indexing takes forever. (I can't wait to see how huge the index file is going to end up being!)

It gives out results in huge clumps. Everything is called "text" and it's impossible (or at least it is very hidden away) to filter through the results in any natural way.

Spotlight handles PDF and graphics files (JPG, GIF, etc.) out of the box, but you have to download and install third-party "filters" to search them. Outlook (or OE) has to be open to search mail messages.

This is so typical of Microsoft's hatred for the concept of "ease of use." Microsoft apologists (and douchebags) like John Dvorak, Paul Thurrott and Rob Enderle will always look at the superficial similarities and say that Windows is just as good (wink, wink) as a Mac. In reality, Spotlight and MSN Desktop Search are like chalk and cheese. Now, MicroShaft has 1-1/2 years (if you believe the bloviations from Redmond) to catch up to the way it ought to be done!

snkTab
May 16, 2005, 10:40 PM
Please, how about Windows media player? I don't think there were video players before WM. And Window's messenger came out way before AIM. And word was the first text editing software ever! Before word you had to use a typewriter.

dejo
May 16, 2005, 11:04 PM
I was under the impression (based on Jobs' presentations) that Spotlight was integrated down into the file system, making it more efficient than would be possible with a standalone application. But after seeing many reports from actual users, I don't think this is what they're doing. There appears to be a utility program that runs in the background indexing files when they are created/changed. I assume this program gets OS-level support about when files are changed so it doesn't have to scan the entire drive looking for changes (the way Microsoft's FindFast utility does), but there doesn't seem to be any integration beyond this.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Unix OSes were not just one single process but rather a collection of integrated processes with the kernel being the "master". Therefore having the Spotlight "indexer" running as a separate process is "normal".

840quadra
May 16, 2005, 11:16 PM
This is so duh.... Desktop search has been around for a very long time. Apple just improves the whole thing. Even Google has their own version of desktop search....

That is my thought too.

Sotlight to me feels allot like "locate" in Unix based systems, with respect that it is more database driven. But any way you want to look at it. Desktop searches have been available for years.

ifjake
May 16, 2005, 11:48 PM
i was under the impression that spotlight-type of searching really came on to the Mac first through iTunes and then rewritten system wide after realizing it worked so nicely.

snkTab
May 17, 2005, 12:06 AM
i was under the impression that spotlight-type of searching really came on to the Mac first through iTunes and then rewritten system wide after realizing it worked so nicely.

I think 3rd partys brought lauchers with this type of capability first, although I might be wrong.

solvs
May 17, 2005, 01:49 AM
Well, considering they both ripped it off of BeOS... :p

Kidding. It's very similar to the Xerox thing. Just like Xerox wasn't doing anything with their software, Be isn't exactly using theirs either. So Apple hires the guys who were working on something Apple was already trying to do. Microsoft rips it off, says they did it first before they even have a product, and people know they're just copying, but excuse them because of course Apple just does the same thing. :rolleyes: At least they admitted when they copied Fast User Switching (not that UNIX didn't already have that capability).

And for the record, Apple did try to hire that Watson guy and the Audion guys who were competing with SoundJam (which was bought by Apple, and some of the designers hired). I'm sure they would have tried to hire the Konfabulator guy before Dashboard, but he actually already worked at Apple. More info on that here (http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator), before it gets bad.

shamino
May 17, 2005, 01:26 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Unix OSes were not just one single process but rather a collection of integrated processes with the kernel being the "master". Therefore having the Spotlight "indexer" running as a separate process is "normal".
Yes, it's perfectly normal for all modern operating systems (and especially microkernels like the one in OS X) to have large numbers of concurrently running processes providing application services.

But when Jobs first spoke about Spotlight, he said it was integrated into the file system. This means (to me, at least) that it is a part of the HFS+ file system driver/task/process, not an application-level process (which is what it appears we've actually got in the shipping product.)

Now maybe it was that tightly integrated when it was first announced at last year's WWDC, and engineering later decided that decoupling it would be better. This, if true, would be quite reasonable for many different reasons.

It might also be that Jobs didn't understand the nuts-and-bolts of Spotlight that well and made an incorrect statement.

I'm simply surprised at the apparent discrepancy between that early presentation and what has actually shipped.

CaptainHaddock
May 17, 2005, 03:45 PM
But when Jobs first spoke about Spotlight, he said it was integrated into the file system. This means (to me, at least) that it is a part of the HFS+ file system driver/task/process, not an application-level process (which is what it appears we've actually got in the shipping product.)

It is integrated into both the file system, and the kernel. You're just thinking about it the wrong way.

1. The ability of HFS+ to store unlimited extensible meta-data is a key piece of Spotlight's functionality.

2. Spotlight's indexing is integrated at the kernel level as part of the file I/O routines.

That a separate process actually maintains the indexes and provides hooks for the UI has no bearing on the fact that Spotlight is integrated at a very low level with the file system and kernel. Stop worrying so much about the applications that maintain and use Spotlight data. :)

shamino
May 17, 2005, 04:31 PM
It is integrated into both the file system, and the kernel. You're just thinking about it the wrong way.

1. The ability of HFS+ to store unlimited extensible meta-data is a key piece of Spotlight's functionality.
This is definitely a prerequisite, but it's not part of the feature.
2. Spotlight's indexing is integrated at the kernel level as part of the file I/O routines.
Are you sure? I haven't seen any tech notes or developer notes that say this. Have you? I have, however, seen this article (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Carbon/Conceptual/MetadataIntro/Concepts/HowDoesItWork.html) from Apple, which strongly implies that the level of kernel integration is simply a notification system, so Spotlight can find out about changed files without repeatedly searching the drive. This is important, but it hardly qualifies for calling the system "integrated".

Additionally, I've read reports from users (on MacInTouch (http://www.macintouch.com/) that when they save files, Spotlight's index sometimes doesn't get updated for 30 minutes. This sounds like what I'd expect from a stand-alone program that watches the system for file updates, not like what I'd expect from something integrated into the I/O subsystem.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not belittling the tremendous amount of work that went into Spotlight. It is an amazing feature. But it would appear that Apple's marketing people have been stretching the truth a bit when it comes to talking about the internals.

wdlove
May 17, 2005, 04:39 PM
Apple innovates and brings to market new features. Windows is in the position of only complaining.

mkrishnan
May 17, 2005, 05:06 PM
1. The ability of HFS+ to store unlimited extensible meta-data is a key piece of Spotlight's functionality.

So is the meta-data stored by HFS+ in some direct way, or is it just stored in the big index files that Spotlight creates? Any file system supports unlimited extensible meta-data in the sense that it'll let the OS make a big data file within a folder in the mounted volume! ;)

Applespider
May 17, 2005, 05:14 PM
Additionally, I've read reports from users (on MacInTouch (http://www.macintouch.com/) that when they save files, Spotlight's index sometimes doesn't get updated for 30 minutes.

I wonder what they are doing - or what apps they're doing it in? Any file I've tried saving and searching for has turned up immediately. In Smart Folders, you can watch it update and appear in the folder window as the save process finishes.

The only delay I've had in it finding something was when I changed some iPhoto titles. The keywords were being picked up immediately I changed them in iPhoto but for some reason the titles weren't. This may have to do with the iPhoto metadata not being written to the files in question but saved elsewhere.

AlmostThere
May 17, 2005, 05:48 PM
There is a description of spotlight here : http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10.4.ars/9

Scroll down to Spotlight implementation.

It seems in part to be an issue of semantics but my reading is that Spotlight isn't integrated into the kernel or I/O BUT the functionality that spotlight depends on has been added (to the Tiger kernel) so that the higher level process (Spotlight) can function.

To clarify, I would say that if Spotlight was "integrated" into the filesystem and kernel there would be no need for any initial indexing (it is part of the filesystem). Spotlight would efficiently access the HFS meta-data directly rather than waiting for kernel signals to notify it of change. My reading is that Spotlight integrates kernel and FS level features, rather than being integrated into ... As I say, largely sematics.

The earlier part of the ars trechnica article discusses some of the limitations of spotlight.

James Philp
May 17, 2005, 06:08 PM
To me, when Job's says "Integrated into the OS" it means that to the normal user, it will work on startup, without having to open an app, and this is what both spotlight and dashboard do.
Back onto topic now
Apple have done pretty well to copy something and implement it before the original! It would be like glancing over in an exam and seeing the person's first question answer, and then completing the whole exam before them. Now sure how something can be "copied" when it doesn't yet exist!?

CaptainHaddock
May 17, 2005, 08:08 PM
I think it's futile to make up one's own definition of what "integration" means, and then complain that Apple's extremely talented engineers haven't done it exactly the same way. But that's just me. :)

If the HFS+ file system is designed specifically to hold Spotlight meta-data, and the kernel has been altered specifically to update Spotlight in real-time, isn't that close enough to be called "integration"? :)

Additionally, I've read reports from users (on MacInTouch that when they save files, Spotlight's index sometimes doesn't get updated for 30 minutes.

Definitely not true! Try the smart folder experiment: make a directory containing all files with the text "fortune cookie" in them. Then make and save a text file with those words in it. The file appears instantly in the smart folder. That's Spotlight, adjusting its index in realtime according to file I/O calls.

So is the meta-data stored by HFS+ in some direct way, or is it just stored in the big index files that Spotlight creates?

Spotlight indexes the meta-data that is stored directly in the HFS+ file system, and the index is updated in real-time. No periodic file scanning is required, unlike Microsoft's "desktop search" hacks.

SiliconAddict
May 17, 2005, 08:32 PM
I don't know who copied who but.....

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23983&stc=1


The thing is the core tech of the search engine has been there since Windows 2000. Windows Indexing Service. The problem was that it sucked badly in 2000. In XP is was better but had (until MSN utility.) no front end to the service. That being said, as you can see, I've played with both the desktop utility and Spotlight. As you can see in screenshot the thing is crude. It doesn't provide any way to add plungins like Spotlight and doesn't index metadata. Personally I think everyone was heading in this direction. I don't think anyone copied anyone else. Its like adding a doorhandle to the car. Its the natural progression of the beast. MS may have gotten there first. (This utility has been out for months.) But Apple refined it enough to make it more then just a toy. I find the MSN search bar useful for e-mail searches, running a quick app, but forget about diving deep into the data. This utility is pretty much a surface skimmer. IMHO. Oh and that is pretty much all I use it for. Web searches? MS? whatever. Iím a Google whore. :D

mac15
May 18, 2005, 07:15 AM
Apple could only patent the Spotlight UI (parts of atleast), putting a patent on searching your HD would kill everyone

shamino
May 18, 2005, 05:07 PM
To clarify, I would say that if Spotlight was "integrated" into the filesystem and kernel there would be no need for any initial indexing (it is part of the filesystem).
Well, it would still have to create the metadata for drives that were last written to using older versions of the OS.

shamino
May 18, 2005, 05:20 PM
To me, when Job's says "Integrated into the OS" it means that to the normal user, it will work on startup, without having to open an app, and this is what both spotlight and dashboard do.
... and I consider a misuse of the term.

You might as well say that my Palm HotSync Monitor is integrated with the system, because it auto-launches whenever I log in. But it's still just a standalone application. I can easily stop it from auto-launching, and then it will behave like any other app.

Ironically, Dashboard is more integrated than that. Although the widgets run as separate processes, the launcher is a part of the Dock's process.

Spotlight, on the other hand, is completely separable from the rest of the system. Sure, it requires a few new kernel APIs, but that's no different from other apps that require new APIs - like an image editor app that requires CoreImage.

Yes, it's quibbling over semantics, but it bothers me when marketing people decide they can redefine terminology that engineers have been using for a long time.
Apple have done pretty well to copy something and implement it before the original!
Does anybody (other than blatant MS advocates) actually believe anything said by the folks in Redmond?

It's not like this is the first time they've made stuff up about their competition.

shamino
May 18, 2005, 05:24 PM
I think it's futile to make up one's own definition of what "integration" means, and then complain that Apple's extremely talented engineers haven't done it exactly the same way. But that's just me. :)

If the HFS+ file system is designed specifically to hold Spotlight meta-data, and the kernel has been altered specifically to update Spotlight in real-time, isn't that close enough to be called "integration"? :)
If I make an image-editor program that requires CoreImage, does that mean my app is integrated with the OS? Obviously not. Would it change anything if Apple bundled the app with the OS instead of my selling it separately? It shouldn't matter.

This is no different. A bundled app is not a part of the OS, simply because it makes use of some special-purpose APIs.

UNIX systems include dozens of ubiquitous command-line utilities. But they're not a part of the OS. They're included with the OS.

Similarly for Spotlight, the Finder, the Dock, Safari, Mail, and most other stuff users interact with. They are included with the OS. They are not a part of the OS.

shamino
May 18, 2005, 05:28 PM
Apple could only patent the Spotlight UI (parts of atleast), putting a patent on searching your HD would kill everyone
You can't (or shouldn't be able to) patent the concept of searching. That's been done hundreds of times by lots of vendors for over 20 years.

You can, however, patent specific algorithms, optimizations and techniques for searching that are truly unique.

For instance, I'm sure Google has patents on the parts of their algorithm that distinguish them from everybody else (like their PageRank system). It is likely that Apple has patented many aspects of Spotlight as well, depending on how original their optimizations really are.

CaptainHaddock
May 18, 2005, 10:59 PM
If I make an image-editor program that requires CoreImage, does that mean my app is integrated with the OS?

If the kernel and file system were modified just to inter-operate with your program, then I would indeed say your app has been integrated with the OS. Otherwise, your analogy is inaccurate.

Similarly for Spotlight, the Finder, the Dock, Safari, Mail, and most other stuff users interact with. They are included with the OS. They are not a part of the OS.

May I respectfully observe that you didn't read my post very carefully? :) Spotlight is not merely a new application included with Tiger. Core aspects of Tiger have been altered to inter-operate with Spotlight and make it possible.

shamino
May 19, 2005, 03:51 PM
If the kernel and file system were modified just to inter-operate with your program, then I would indeed say your app has been integrated with the OS. Otherwise, your analogy is inaccurate.
No. Not even then.

I'm a developer writing an app. Let's say I have a friend in Apple. I start talking about my app and mention that I could make it so much nicer if they would add one particular API to the kernel.

If my friend speaks to a few people and gets that API added, does my app all of a sudden become a part of the OS? Of course not.
May I respectfully observe that you didn't read my post very carefully? :) Spotlight is not merely a new application included with Tiger. Core aspects of Tiger have been altered to inter-operate with Spotlight and make it possible.
I did read your posts. I also read many articles on Apple's developer site, and I think your statements are exaggerations based on marketing hype.

Apple added an API to allow applications to know when files are created/modified. They wrote an indexing utility that uses this API to avoid having to scour the entire hard drive. They updated their pre-existing SearchKit APIs to use the new index. They developed a GUI interface to the pre-existing SearchKit APIs.

This is not rewriting the OS to provide a service. It's one API, that isn't even specific to Spotlight. Everything else is application-level code that anybody else could have written.

triangle
Apr 13, 2006, 02:52 PM
Hello,

Winfs seems quite and interesting filesystem. If you wish to find out more of it, you can give a glance to this source:
http://www.ntfs.com/

kgarner
Apr 13, 2006, 03:58 PM
Hello,

Winfs seems quite and interesting filesystem. If you wish to find out more of it, you can give a glance to this source:
http://www.ntfs.com/
You know that they dropped WinFS from Vista, right? It looks cool and everything, but we are who knows how many years away from ever seeing it implemented.

SC68Cal
Apr 13, 2006, 04:00 PM
sarcasm on the internet is like trying to find a mindfield by walking through it

solvs
Apr 13, 2006, 10:46 PM
You are a moron, goodbye.
I believe that was sarcasm. Silly. And why did someone resurrect this ancient thread just to talk about something that isn't even going to be in the finished version of Longhorn... er, Vista?

SC68Cal
Apr 13, 2006, 11:20 PM
I believe that was sarcasm.


Oh, don't mind me then.

:makes durrr face:

devman
Apr 14, 2006, 11:10 AM
time to restate Petreley's (old) first law of I.T. journalism.

"No technology exists until Microsoft invents it."

tjwett
May 18, 2006, 03:52 PM
...But all evidence is that Apple was working on Spotlight long before Longorn was shown. Spotlight is inspired by iTunes search, Sherlock, even BeOS (apple hired someone from Be)...

his name is Dominic Giampaolo. he wrote the entire Be file system "BFS" and for a while now he has been at Apple working on OS X file system and Spotlight. if one person could hold the title of "Spotlight Inventor" it's him and him alone. it's lean, mean and BeOS had Spotlight (even more powerful than Apple's) way back then. the OS was known for its ability to create and save dynamically updating queries and all sorts of cool meta data "they called it "Attributes" stuff. BeOS is the greatest OS that never was. it's a shame that it didn't make it.

jsw
May 18, 2006, 04:00 PM
BeOS is the greatest OS that never was.
My dual-603 BeBox and I agree completely.

tjwett
May 18, 2006, 04:49 PM
My dual-603 BeBox and I agree completely.

JEALOUS! drop me a line if that thing's ever for sale. :)

jsw
May 18, 2006, 04:50 PM
JEALOUS! drop me a line if that thing's ever for sale. :)
I will. Just don't hold your breath. I love that little guy.

truz
May 18, 2006, 05:09 PM
This is funny.. Microsoft is looking like assclowns with there vista release so they try and attack apple and make themselfs look like total *******s..

Dillenger
May 19, 2006, 08:48 AM
It sounds like Goliath is really pi$$ed at David for another whack between the eyes.