Dell: $298 delivered.

[iGary]

:rolleyes:

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=D24L1&s=dhs

[Tech^salvager]

:rolleyes:

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=D24L1&s=dhs
and whats with the roll eyes? so what if the desktop is going for cheap

[qzak]

i'm sorry.. but thats awesome

for a lower income family who doesn't have a computer, that would be just fine for basic functions. maybe add MS Word and speakers if the kids want to play some games (i'm talking little kids games, not DOOM or something like that).

i know a family like this, looking for their first computer just for basic internet/ word processing use and kids games. this would be great for them.

[Tech^salvager]

i'm sorry.. but thats awesome

for a lower income family who doesn't have a computer, that would be just fine for basic functions. maybe add MS Word and speakers if the kids want to play some games (i'm talking little kids games, not DOOM or something like that).

i know a family like this, looking for their first computer just for basic internet/ word processing use and kids games. this would be great for them.
usually comes with MS works that should perfrom as good enough to replace MS word for a while. But in all I have to agree with you.

[iGary]

i'm sorry.. but thats awesome

for a lower income family who doesn't have a computer, that would be just fine for basic functions. maybe add MS Word and speakers if the kids want to play some games (i'm talking little kids games, not DOOM or something like that).

i know a family like this, looking for their first computer just for basic internet/ word processing use and kids games. this would be great for them.

Does said family realize that their computer will be rendered imobile on the Internet within about five minutes unless they buy virus, malware and spyware protection?

No backup abilities, no speakers, no iLife apps....

Still a crappy deal when stacked against a mini.

[qzak]

i said add speakers. windows comes with builtin firewall now, and yeah i would tell my friends family to add anti virus. i think that would be fine then. ilife apps, who cares.. all most people need is a word processor

No Productivity Suite - Corel WordPerfect® word processor only

and it comes with WordPerfect.

or u can add Word...
*
Microsoft Works Suite 2005 - Includes Word 2002, Streets & Trips 2005 [add $39 or $2/month2

still looks good to me, comes with a monitor and keyboard/mouse unlike the mini

[calyxman]

I don't get it. So what's your point in posting about that deal, that's it's real good or is it a cynical jab at Dell?

[cr2sh]

FREE Dell Color Printer 720!
Cables for Dell Printers - None
Dell USB Printer Cable - 10 ft black [add $25 or $1/month2] Required to connect to PC

Wow, a real deal there.

[cr2sh]

:rolleyes:

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=D24L1&s=dhs

If you go through and add all of the "DELL RECOMENDED" items, this 2.4GHz Celeron machine costs $1300.

:eek:

[calyxman]

i said add speakers. windows comes with builtin firewall now, and yeah i would tell my friends family to add anti virus. i think that would be fine then. ilife apps, who cares.. all most people need is a word processor


Norton's 2005 AV software was actually advertised by Staples this weekend with $50 in rebates. $20 is if your upgrading, but still, if you're not upgrading the AV software only costs you like $20.

I would up the memory to 512Mb, but I wouldn't do it through Dell. I'd just buy a 256 MB stick from Newegg.com for $20 and slap it in there. Speakers are dirt cheap.

And at least the system comes with a monitor, keyboard and mouse. Mac mini doesn't include those.

[iGary]

I don't get it. So what's your point in posting about that deal, that's it's real good or is it a cynical jab at Dell?

The deal is, to be a real computer that real people could actually be productive with, you'd have to add about 250.00 to the price. And then, you'd still have a POS.

[iGary]

With a cable for the printer, virus software, MS Works, speakers, 512 MB of RAM, a CD burner....

$537.00

What a deal.

[Bigheadache]

The deal is, to be a real computer that real people could actually be productive with, you'd have to add about 250.00 to the price. And then, you'd still have a POS.

I don't know about that argument. Even if you buy a mac mini you still have to add RAM, a monitor, keyboard, etc. And as long as it has a G4 processor its still a POS.

Anyway in case anyone is thinking about that deal, I found this one is actually better - $498 including 17inch LCD and a P4 not a celeron.
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&oc=2d30h3&s=bsd

[calyxman]

Well what do you think the Mac mini is? You don't get a free monitor, mouse and keyboard with that system. 256Mb RAM stock. Go price a Mac mini with all the bells and whistles and slap on the extra warranty and you have a system for around $1000, without the monitor, and without a printer.

Deals like this are actually very common. eMachines offers very nice configurations with AMD chips. Sure some require a mail in rebate but you're still getting a kick ass deal. I'd personally would go AMD over Intel, especially when you're talking the Celeron chip--8K L1 Cache? Bleh!

Plus, any BTO system will have inflated prices for their upgrades (with some exceptions like TechDepot's offers). No one would pay $50 for a 256MB stick when you can buy it from newegg.com for under $20.

It gets even worse when you're pricing out notebook deals and comparing the bargains against what you pay for in a new Powerbook/iBook.

[iGary]

And as long as it has a G4 processor its still a POS.

So you're telling me all the G4 owners on this board own junk?

[calyxman]

Here's a great system from eMachines that doesn't go cheap on its power-packed features:

http://www.emachines.com/products/products.html?prod=eMachines_T6212

$579 after a mail-in rebate. Athlon 64 3200 2.0 GHZ, 512 Mb stock, 160 gig 7200 rpm drive, DVD +/- RW, ATI xpress 200m with 128 Mb dedicated memory, 7 usb 2.0 ports, 1 firewire, 8-1 digital media reader, keyboard, mouse. It could use gigabit ethernet, but hey what it has is fine enough.

[Bigheadache]

So you're telling me all the G4 owners on this board own junk?

Only if they bought it in 2005. Come on seriously, even fanboys know its well past its expiry date.

[Maxiseller]

Ok, I think we should all have some group medatation here...

(hums in unison)

The Dell deal is great - come on, you can't deny it. If you add all the extras yeh, its a hell of a lot more expensive, but that is all too true of the mac mini too.

The software is why we're all on mac right? Just because somthing is a great price, it doesn't mean it's going to work like a dream - Especially if it's got windows behind it!!

The important thing here is that while we all love macs, this is an undeniably great price for what the package contains. It's like £200 in the UK!! I can't buy an external Hard drive for much less than that!

[Bozola]

Hey now.. my 500mhz G3 iMac still rocks... at least IMHO... :) Only if they bought it in 2005. Come on seriously, even fanboys know its well past its expiry date.

[Bigheadache]

Hey now.. my 500mhz G3 iMac still rocks... at least IMHO... :)

Hey man no disrespect.

What I meant was if you bought a G4 when it was competitive then your equipment is now 'heritage' or 'classic'. Buying a new G4 in 2005 is a bit of a laugh surely.

[1macker1]

Blah..that's not true.
Does said family realize that their computer will be rendered imobile on the Internet within about five minutes unless they buy virus, malware and spyware protection?

No backup abilities, no speakers, no iLife apps....

Still a crappy deal when stacked against a mini.

[asif786]

the processor speed arguement is one that always annoys me, because half of the time it doesn't even matter. unless you're doing video editing or something like that, it really hardly makes a difference.

it's the ram that matters. try comparing a pbg4 with 1 gig ram to say a pm with 256mb ram.

im sure many people aren't going to turn around and say 'im not buying this laptop because it's a g4.' that's just silly. i use a pb and an imac g5 all the time, and in all honesty there's no massive difference.

oh, and lastly, whenever pc users ask me what pc to buy, i always say hp. to me, they're machines seem good. with dell, as soon as you make the system even usable (cd-rw, extra ram, speakers, etc) the price has shot up. hp machines are cool - a great mix between value and quality imho.

[Lancetx]

Only if they bought it in 2005. Come on seriously, even fanboys know its well past its expiry date.

But a Dell with a 2.4 GHz Celeron isn't well past it's expiration date? A G4 running at 1.25GHz or better still has enough horsepower to get the job done for most consumers. A Mac mini is definitely a more capable computer than this $298 Dell system.

Of course, if you're one of those "my gigahertz is bigger than yours" types, then there are machines like that out there for you (for a considerably higher cost) from both Dell and Apple as well. But to say a G4 is a "POS" and totally outdated is rather silly...

[_pb_boi]

If you go through and add all of the "DELL RECOMENDED" items, this 2.4GHz Celeron machine costs $1300.

:eek:

Buy a 1.25GHz mini with BTO options and it'll cost $1072.

Add a monitor and it'll cost ~$2600.

So?

andy.

[IJ Reilly]

At least this cheap Dell doesn't require any rebates. I shopped for a similar eMachines box a few weeks ago and discovered that the $300 computer requires the purchase of a monitor and printer. The price out the door is closer to $700. Then you mail in and wait for as many as five, separate rebates. If by chance you really want to buy just the computer, the rebates are fewer, but the final price is actually higher. We walked out without buying anything.

[cr2sh]

Buy a 1.25GHz mini with BTO options and it'll cost $1072.

Add a monitor and it'll cost ~$2600.

So?

andy.

The Dell recommended items are things such as an anti-virus, a usb cable, and media creation software.

And in the end, you're paying $1300 for a celeron.

Besides, who spends $1600 on a monitor?

[iGary]

But a Dell with a 2.4 GHz Celeron isn't well past it's expiration date? A G4 running at 1.25GHz or better still has enough horsepower to get the job done for most consumers. A Mac mini is definitely a more capable computer than this $298 Dell system.

Of course, if you're one of those "my gigahertz is bigger than yours" types, then there are machines like that out there for you (for a considerably higher cost) from both Dell and Apple as well. But to say a G4 is a "POS" and totally outdated is rather silly...

The Celeron is a Pentium II, folks. Talk about ancient technology.

[IJ Reilly]

If the point is a one-to-one comparison between a Mac mini and the cheap Dell, then at a minimum you'd need to add a combo drive to the Dell ($99), which brings the price to $400. You won't be able to add a reasonable video subsystem to the Dell because it simply isn't available. In fact, IIRC, the Dell doesn't even have an AGP slot. This is even before you get into the issue of whether the Celeron compares favorably to the G4.

[apple2991]

What I meant was if you bought a G4 when it was competitive then your equipment is now 'heritage' or 'classic'. Buying a new G4 in 2005 is a bit of a laugh surely.

Sure, there are faster machines out there, but that doesn't mean people need that extra speed. And G5's existing doesn't take away from the fact that G4's are still just fine and dandy for a LOT of Mac users (see: everyone who owns a *Book.)

You're right. Pentium 4's are definitely "classic" and "heritage" processors. I mean, come one, they were released at the end of 2000! They are OBVIOUSLY out of date.

[calyxman]

Well I think the thing that would turn me away from a deal like this if I were looking for a desktop is the Celeron processor. AMD all the way for me. I'd take a Sempron over a Celeron any day.

At least this cheap Dell doesn't require any rebates. I shopped for a similar eMachines box a few weeks ago and discovered that the $300 computer requires the purchase of a monitor and printer. The price out the door is closer to $700. Then you mail in and wait for as many as five, separate rebates. If by chance you really want to buy just the computer, the rebates are fewer, but the final price is actually higher. We walked out without buying anything.

Well the emachines that I linked to had a $50 rebate, so nothing to write home about. Yeah you gotta wait for awhile to get your money back, but you do get it back. My mother purchased an eMachines last year, Celeron D 2.53 Ghz, with a free monitor and printer. After getting all the rebates back, the system cost $350. I threw in an extra 256 Mb of RAM and for $20.

Better yet, if you want to see a good deal, check out what Office Depot (http://officedepot.crossmediaservices.com/officedepot/circular_browse_listing_detail.asp?storeid=2279411&pagenumber=1&rapid=141813&listingid=-2096949862&) has for this week. It's a BTO system, and the upgrades are usually very low in price. Of course you have to send in for rebates but I just got notification of my HP rebate today. So yeah you gotta have patience but in the end it's worth it.

[IJ Reilly]

Well the emachines that I linked to had a $50 rebate, so nothing to write home about. Yeah you gotta wait for awhile to get your money back, but you do get it back. My mother purchased an eMachines last year, Celeron D 2.53 Ghz, with a free monitor and printer. After getting all the rebates back, the system cost $350. I threw in an extra 256 Mb of RAM and for $20.

Better yet, if you want to see a good deal, check out what Office Depot (http://officedepot.crossmediaservices.com/officedepot/circular_browse_listing_detail.asp?storeid=2279411&pagenumber=1&rapid=141813&listingid=-2096949862&) has for this week. It's a BTO system, and the upgrades are usually very low in price. Of course you have to send in for rebates but I just got notification of my HP rebate today. So yeah you gotta have patience but in the end it's worth it.

I really dislike rebates. They're as close to the classic bait-and-switch tactic as you can get without being illegal. They take forever to arrive, and sometimes they never do. I've never seen so many rebates on one product as I did on the eMachines boxes at both Circuit City and Best Buy. To make matters worse, if you refuse to take add-on products you don't necessarily want or need, you're penalized with a higher price. That reeks. Anybody who plays that stupid trick on me isn't going to get my business.

[mkrishnan]

I thought it was interesting that there isn't even an option of a combo drive (you have to get two separate drives to have DVD/CDRW functionality). Is that common in the PC desktop world, and have I not been paying attention? Dell must get an amazing supply chain deal on those limited drives. I didn't even think you could get a CDRW that couldn't read DVDs anymore.

[calyxman]

To be fair, when I bought my iBook back in 2001, there was a $100 rebate from Apple. That's right, an Apple product, and I did get the rebate btw, but it took several weeks as usual.

[mkrishnan]

To be fair, when I bought my iBook back in 2001, there was a $100 rebate from Apple. That's right, an Apple product, and I did get the rebate btw, but it took several weeks as usual.

I got a $100 rebate (as a way to get a free printer) from Apple when I purchased my iBook at the end of 2003.

[xli_ne]

I don't get it. So what's your point in posting about that deal, that's it's real good or is it a cynical jab at Dell?

jab at dell and microsoft it sounds like

[calyxman]

oh, and lastly, whenever pc users ask me what pc to buy, i always say hp. to me, they're machines seem good. with dell, as soon as you make the system even usable (cd-rw, extra ram, speakers, etc) the price has shot up. hp machines are cool - a great mix between value and quality imho.

I like HP's offerings. I noticed that on one of their desktop systems, there's a built-in iPod dock on the top part of the case. Nice idea.

HP's notebooks are great too (alright I'm biased :p). But I'd only recommend them if you're serious about a DTR type system, because some of their notebooks are big! In fact, my system doesn't contain a mobile chip. The Sempron core runs at 1.5V and the fan runs continuously, although its not that bad.

[IJ Reilly]

I got a $100 rebate (as a way to get a free printer) from Apple when I purchased my iBook at the end of 2003.

And the Mac would have cost $150 more if you hadn't wanted the printer, right?

[_pb_boi]

The Dell recommended items are things such as an anti-virus, a usb cable, and media creation software.

And in the end, you're paying $1300 for a celeron.

Besides, who spends $1600 on a monitor?

Um, anyone buying a 23in Apple monitor (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/72702/wo/M85D95F7xtNR237g4490igWxW1X/0.0.11.1.0.6.23.1.6.1.3.0.0.1.0)...

The recommended items also include more RAM, a bigger hard drive, a better optical drive and speakers.

andy.

[calyxman]

You know what, people who buy from the value line of any product are not enamored by glamorous specs or slick packaging. Buying a computer for them is like buying a microwave for their kitchen.

So they'll be content with their Celeron's, G4s, 15" monitors, lackluster speakers, MS Works, Appleworks, and so forth.

Secondly, this fuss about rebates is fine. But at the same time, experienced computer buyers don't simply shop at one place when buying a new system; they shop around for deals, just like I do. Sometimes vendors will include extra bonuses like additional RAM, a carrying case, or free printer just to get business. I bought my iBook through Mac Connection because they offered an extra 256 MB of RAM free. At that time, that may have been a $50-$100 add-on from the Apple Store.

So to each his own.

[zap2]

its a bad deal becuase it runs on windows and u spend all that money keeping it safe get a mac ,it's safer( and uses osx)

[mkrishnan]

And the Mac would have cost $150 more if you hadn't wanted the printer, right?

No, the printer was an additional $100 and entitled you to a $100 rebate. So if you didn't want the printer, I believe the price was the same.

[plinden]

Whatever the merits or otherwise of this Dell, if you buy a Dell never get the Dell printer option, even if it's free. Their printers take only Dell cartridges, which are way too expensive. Here is a link the ink cartridges for the 720 Inkjet in that configuration: http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/printerconfigproductlisting.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=19&ManufactSelection=694&ModelSelection=166545

[IJ Reilly]

No, the printer was an additional $100 and entitled you to a $100 rebate. So if you didn't want the printer, I believe the price was the same.

Right, that was my point. With the eMachines deals, you actually pay more to get less. I make a beeline for the exit when I see that sort of thing.

[IJ Reilly]

You know what, people who buy from the value line of any product are not enamored by glamorous specs or slick packaging. Buying a computer for them is like buying a microwave for their kitchen.

So they'll be content with their Celeron's, G4s, 15" monitors, lackluster speakers, MS Works, Appleworks, and so forth.

Secondly, this fuss about rebates is fine. But at the same time, experienced computer buyers don't simply shop at one place when buying a new system; they shop around for deals, just like I do. Sometimes vendors will include extra bonuses like additional RAM, a carrying case, or free printer just to get business. I bought my iBook through Mac Connection because they offered an extra 256 MB of RAM free. At that time, that may have been a $50-$100 add-on from the Apple Store.

So to each his own.

I am a very experienced computer buyer and certainly know how to shop for deals. Why would you assume otherwise?

[mkrishnan]

Right, that was my point. With the eMachines deals, you actually pay more to get less. I make a beeline for the exit when I see that sort of thing.

Ahh, I'm with you now. Yes, I back away slowly towards the door, clutching my wallet tightly, and then turn and run to the car when I see that kind of thing too. ;)

In further Apple defense, unlike the printers plinden was talking about with Dell, the Epson C84 I got has very affordable ink / TCO. :)

[bluemouse]

Hey man no disrespect.

What I meant was if you bought a G4 when it was competitive then your equipment is now 'heritage' or 'classic'. Buying a new G4 in 2005 is a bit of a laugh surely.

Surely? I disagree. I just bought myself a nice new Powerbook that I love. I don't care that it's a G4, because the damn thing runs like a clock. Couldn't be happier with my "outdated" technology over here. Surely you meant in a desktop sense.

bluemouse

[Capt Underpants]

Does said family realize that their computer will be rendered imobile on the Internet within about five minutes unless they buy virus, malware and spyware protection?

No backup abilities, no speakers, no iLife apps....

Still a crappy deal when stacked against a mini.

A crappy deal? This thing comes with a printer, keyboard, mouse, and monitor! What's up with this mac elitist thing lately? So what if Apple has some freakin competition. I'm happy for anyone who gets this as their first computer, and you should be too. Besides, with the monitor, keybaord, and mouse that you have to buy with the mini, you're looking at another $150. $650 is too much for some people, and I don't blame them for going with the dell.

[Capt Underpants]

The Celeron is a Pentium II, folks. Talk about ancient technology.

And the G4 isn't? I've used a celeron, and it's PERFECT for prudictivity apps, especially for a family's first computer.

[CanadaRAM]

:rolleyes:

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=D24L1&s=dhs
They fooled even you -- it ain't delivered -- the prominent Free Shipping offer is only for purchases over $499 before tax. So the $299 machine has a $99 shipping charge.

[Bigheadache]

Sure, there are faster machines out there, but that doesn't mean people need that extra speed. And G5's existing doesn't take away from the fact that G4's are still just fine and dandy for a LOT of Mac users (see: everyone who owns a *Book.)

My mistake. I didn't realise you had such low performance expectations for a new computer purchase in 2005. I personally think that the world's best OS should be backed up by decent hardware (at least a G5).

You're right. Pentium 4's are definitely "classic" and "heritage" processors. I mean, come one, they were released at the end of 2000! They are OBVIOUSLY out of date.

Won't get any disagreement out of me. The whole Netburst architecture is dumb compared to an A64 or the POWER architecture.

But a Dell with a 2.4 GHz Celeron isn't well past it's expiration date? A G4 running at 1.25GHz or better still has enough horsepower to get the job done for most consumers. A Mac mini is definitely a more capable computer than this $298 Dell system.

Of course, if you're one of those "my gigahertz is bigger than yours" types, then there are machines like that out there for you (for a considerably higher cost) from both Dell and Apple as well. But to say a G4 is a "POS" and totally outdated is rather silly....

You're making the same mistake in comparison as iGary. Whilst the Dell may be equally crap as a Mac Mini its only $298 to get it up and running. A Mac Mini is $499 without a monitor/keyboard/mouse. By the time it gets fully operational you've spent over twice as much as the Dell.

[CanadaRAM]

My mistake. I didn't realise you had such low performance expectations for a new computer purchase in 2005. I personally think that the world's best OS should be backed up by decent hardware (at least a G5).

Nope, have to disagree with you there. My Mini is a dream for office work, it's an absolute pleasure to use with Firefox and the Office suite, and will be on my desk for at least 3 years.

You're making the same mistake in comparison as iGary. Whilst the Dell may be equally crap as a Mac Mini its only $298 to get it up and running. A Mac Mini is $499 without a monitor/keyboard/mouse. By the time it gets fully operational you've spent over twice as much as the Dell.

Clue into the Big Lie: IT's NOT $299. It's $398 shipped to get it "up and running". Plus US$25 for the freakin' USB cable or you can't use the "free" printer. Dell has run their shipping price scam forever.

[Bigheadache]

Clue into the Big Lie: IT's NOT $299. It's $398 shipped to get it "up and running". Plus US$25 for the freakin' USB cable or you can't use the "free" printer. Dell has run their shipping price scam forever.

And your point? Its still a lot less than a Mac Mini with keyboard and mouse and monitor.

[Bigheadache]

Nope, have to disagree with you there. My Mini is a dream for office work, it's an absolute pleasure to use with Firefox and the Office suite, and will be on my desk for at least 3 years.


Good for you. I have alot higher expectations for my hard earned.

[calyxman]

You know what? Who cares. I brought up the question of what the point of this thread was. The answer is obvious. So what else is there to accomplish? What other "bargains" can you deride? :rolleyes:

[IJ Reilly]

And your point? Its still a lot less than a Mac Mini with keyboard and mouse and monitor.

Not really. Add another $100 for a combo drive and the price is the same. The only difference is the keyboard and mouse, a lousy 17" CRT -- $60, tops? And the Dell still has crummy integrated graphics, no firewire...

[Bigheadache]

Not really. Add another $100 for a combo drive and the price is the same. The only difference is the keyboard and mouse, a lousy 17" CRT -- $60, tops? And the Dell still has crummy integrated graphics, no firewire...

$60 tops???... yeah right. Even the crap 17inch CRTs on newegg are close to $100 before shipping. Any other prices you want to make up?

[840quadra]

$60 tops???... yeah right. Even the crap 17inch CRTs on newegg are close to $100 before shipping. Any other prices you want to make up?

$60 is a bit low, but I was able to do a quick Froogle search and find many NEW monitors under $100 shipped. Newegg is nice, but it isn't the end all of online computer hardware purchases.

I think this kind of deal is great, I am pushing a Mini for my friends kids computer, but if they didn't have the other parts they need, I may have pushed this Dell!

[Passante]

:rolleyes:

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=D24L1&s=dhs

Only 256 meg ram and no floppy?? That's not a pc its junk :cool:

[iGary]

What's the point, he asks?

Dell uses bait and switch tactics.

For shame.

[ReanimationLP]

And as long as it has a G4 processor its still a POS.

You're just begging for a beating arent you. :mad:

[iGary]

You're just begging for a beating arent you. :mad:

He is. My 1.25 G4 is only 10 bench points behind my iMac G5 and actually handles a lot of PS tasks better.

[ewinemiller]

The Celeron is a Pentium II, folks. Talk about ancient technology.

Umm, no. The original Celeron 7 years ago was a Pentium II based chip. The new one is based on the P4, with a slower bus and less L2 cache. That Dell machine is quite usable.

BTW, for home use, you can get free antivirus so that's not really an extra cost. Check out http://free.grisoft.com.

[iGary]

Umm, no. The original Celeron 7 years ago was a Pentium II based chip. The new one is based on the P4, with a slower bus and less L2 cache. That Dell machine is quite usable.

BTW, for home use, you can get free antivirus so that's not really an extra cost. Check out http://free.grisoft.com.

Never said it wasn't usable, but if you want to do business with a company the likes of a used car dealer, cool.

[ewinemiller]

Never said it wasn't usable, but if you want to do business with a company the likes of a used car dealer, cool.

Never really found them to be used car dealeresque. Sitting next to my powermac and ibook are 3 dells. I've had about a half dozen dells, all have been good deals, built well, and when I needed support, they were quite helpful. I'd consider them in the same space for quality and support as Apple. Where's the used car dealer in that?

Do you consider them a used car dealer because they let you buy a striped down machine and let you pick the options you want, because they charge shipping?

You don't have to buy the USB cable if you already have one, or you can pick up one up some place cheaper. It's not a bait and switch, it's choice. It doesn't come with virus, but you can get a free one from AVG that has been rated some place better than Norton or McAfee. The place I noticed this deal at, suggested buying a pair of them so that you don't pay shipping! Go in with a friend and you've got your $298 machine.

Slap Open Office on there, free, AVG virus, free, XP's firewall, included. Memory is cheap if you don't buy it from Dell, same thing as Apple. Buy a $50 dual layer 16x DVD burner and it will come with Nero which is quite nice for burning DVDs and CDs. Use the built in MS Movie editor, not as nice as iMovie, but sufficient. Grab iTunes from Apple. You're all set.

Yes it's not as pretty and compact as the mini and won't be a good game machine, but those are not everyone's top buying priority. This is a great deal for someone who just needs a basic computer. My mother went with a similar deal a few months back, it works great for them.

[ewinemiller]

Come to think if it, I wish Apple's pricing stucture was more like Dells. I'd like to pick up a dual 2.7 with no iApps, no burner, minimum memory, and small harddrive.

I need it for is 3D modeling and rendering, the occasional compile. I want fast CPU, but don't need big harddrive, overpriced bundled memory, etc. I'd like to pick a different video card and my only choices are crappy and the best, but really expensive. I can get the mac 9800 pro from buy.com for $220, but I have to throw away or sell a 256 meg card from the 2.7. I'd love to be able to pick a cheaper 64meg 5200 as an option so that I'm not throwing away as much.

[apple2991]

Good for you. I have alot higher expectations for my hard earned.

Great. I'm really happy to hear about your personal needs. Now let's look at the needs of the consumers who are much more likely to buy this $298 Dell or a Mac Mini. They don't even know what G5 and P4 mean. Do you really think that they are EVER going to use a computer for anything more than email, Office, and web-browsing? Hey, maybe they'll even use it to sync up their iPod.

For all of these tasks, a G4 is more than enough hardware. You needing to calculate floating points or render digital video doesn't make the G4 a POS.

[newwavedave]

:rolleyes:

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=D24L1&s=dhs


I think what all you M$ zealots are missing is that to get all of the specs that you get with a Mac mini out of the box, the price is more for the Dell. I configured this system with firewire (most inexpensive video cams for the home use it to connect to the computer), this thing only comes with a 90 day guarantee. I then added the photo, music and file transfer software (all standard on a mini.) I added works and quickbooks (the mini comes with quicken and AppleWorks.) I even took the price of the Monitor off. I had to add a combo drive and to compare correctly I added a keyboard and mouse and printer cable (mini comes with free printer upgrade) to the price of the Mac mini so that the prices were correct. The price of the Dell, $639.40 and the cost of the mini, $557.00.

Of course there is no reason why some people need everything in the mini. But in order to come up to an equal value, especially for someone who is looking to take a computer home and have it up and running in seconds, with all the features above. The mini is the clear winner. There is no arguing that. All of that free software you are talking about takes time to download. With the Mac mini, it comes out of the box with it all and is ready to go. You just need to find a monitor for it... ;)

[newwavedave]

Come to think if it, I wish Apple's pricing stucture was more like Dells. I'd like to pick up a dual 2.7 with no iApps, no burner, minimum memory, and small harddrive.

I need it for is 3D modeling and rendering, the occasional compile. I want fast CPU, but don't need big harddrive, overpriced bundled memory, etc. I'd like to pick a different video card and my only choices are crappy and the best, but really expensive. I can get the mac 9800 pro from buy.com for $220, but I have to throw away or sell a 256 meg card from the 2.7. I'd love to be able to pick a cheaper 64meg 5200 as an option so that I'm not throwing away as much.

I have to agree with you on that, I wish apple aloud you to downgrade a lot more. Although, after dealing with all of the crap that you have to go through to order a computer on the Dell sight. I hope that Apple NEVER gets like that.

[IJ Reilly]

I think what all you M$ zealots are missing is that to get all of the specs that you get with a Mac mini out of the box, the price is more for the Dell. I configured this system with firewire (most inexpensive video cams for the home use it to connect to the computer), this thing only comes with a 90 day guarantee. I then added the photo, music and file transfer software (all standard on a mini.) I added works and quickbooks (the mini comes with quicken and AppleWorks.) I even took the price of the Monitor off. I had to add a combo drive and to compare correctly I added a keyboard and mouse and printer cable (mini comes with free printer upgrade) to the price of the Mac mini so that the prices were correct. The price of the Dell, $639.40 and the cost of the mini, $557.00.

... and the mini still has the superior graphics subsystem. Of course you could add a PCI graphics card to the Dell (after-market, Dell doesn't offer a BTO option), but that would push the cost closer to $700.00.

The main complaint against Apple here seems to be that they don't offer a stripped to the bare bones Mac that needs to be upgraded just to be fully functional. And before anyone responds with the argument that the $299 Dell is fully functional, I'd ask what they're going to use for backing up, lacking a CD-RW or even a floppy drive.

[_pb_boi]

My mistake. I didn't realise you had such low performance expectations for a new computer purchase in 2005. I personally think that the world's best OS should be backed up by decent hardware (at least a G5).

Classic elitism at its most evident. At least a G5? Now let's see, the previous gen iMac had a G5 1.6 variant, while the latest Powerbooks hit G4 1.67 - widely accepted as offering *very* similar performance. Yet the new Powerbook won't be good enough for ya, then?

Interesting.

andy.

[ewinemiller]

... and the mini still has the superior graphics subsystem. Of course you could add a PCI graphics card to the Dell (after-market, Dell doesn't offer a BTO option), but that would push the cost closer to $700.00.

The main complaint against Apple here seems to be that they don't offer a stripped to the bare bones Mac that needs to be upgraded just to be fully functional. And before anyone responds with the argument that the $299 Dell is fully functional, I'd ask what they're going to use for backing up, lacking a CD-RW or even a floppy drive.

I think your assumption that everyone cares about backing up is wrong. It may not be the smartest thing to do, but most folks I've met don't back up. Back up is what they do when they copy all the stuff from their old machine to their new. You could use this machine in a business or as a second machine without any need to back up, everything kept on a fileshare.

Granted the onboard video is crap, but it's good enough to play the minesweeper, blackjack and golf games this machine's target market wants to play.

The stripped down product fits a need and is fully functional for that market, it's not supposed to be the same machine as the mini, though you can bring it up to that for a reasonable investment. They just keep getting compared because they are about the cheapest you can get from each vendor.

If I wanted a new machine for my Grandmother or Mom, I'd recommend this machine. Grandma doesn't need anything else, mom can move her burner from her existing machine and just did when a similar deal came up a few months back. To my co-worker who spends a lot of time burning DVDs and editing home movies I recommended a mini when he asked about getting a new computer. Each has it's place.

[xli_ne]

Use the built in MS Movie editor, not as nice as iMovie, but sufficient.



Not as nice as imovie is putting it nicely. That program is so basic its not even funny.

[IJ Reilly]

I think your assumption that everyone cares about backing up is wrong. It may not be the smartest thing to do, but most folks I've met don't back up. Back up is what they do when they copy all the stuff from their old machine to their new. You could use this machine in a business or as a second machine without any need to back up, everything kept on a fileshare.

Granted the onboard video is crap, but it's good enough to play the minesweeper, blackjack and golf games this machine's target market wants to play.

The stripped down product fits a need and is fully functional for that market, it's not supposed to be the same machine as the mini, though you can bring it up to that for a reasonable investment. They just keep getting compared because they are about the cheapest you can get from each vendor.

If I wanted a new machine for my Grandmother or Mom, I'd recommend this machine. Grandma doesn't need anything else, mom can move her burner from her existing machine and just did when a similar deal came up a few months back. To my co-worker who spends a lot of time burning DVDs and editing home movies I recommended a mini when he asked about getting a new computer. Each has it's place.

I'm not making any assumption, just pointing out that the Dell can't be backed up. It's about as bare-bones as a new computer can be and still be of any value. I think most people will recognize fairly quickly (I'd hope before their PC is hosed by a virus) that buying a computer that can't be backed up isn't a very wise choice. Even Grandma is going to figure that out, and Grandma is going to have a tough time negotiating the after-market for a CD-RW and installing it. So the idea that this rock-bottom PC is perfect for Grandma is the argument that eats itself.

[Chappers]

And half the fight for Dell is getting customers through the door (or onto their web page).

$298 PC not enough for you - well what about this one then.

[ewinemiller]

I'm not making any assumption, just pointing out that the Dell can't be backed up. It's about as bare-bones as a new computer can be and still be of any value. I think most people will recognize fairly quickly (I'd hope before their PC is hosed by a virus) that buying a computer that can't be backed up isn't a very wise choice. Even Grandma is going to figure that out, and Grandma is going to have a tough time negotiating the after-market for a CD-RW and installing it. So the idea that this rock-bottom PC is perfect for Grandma is the argument that eats itself.

Ah, but it is the perfect machine for her, Grandma falls squarely in that population who doesn't bother backing up even if she did have the means so why pay extra.

You're right that Granny isn't going to have the skills to add a aftermarket part, but really she's going to need someone to handhold her though getting the machine configured for her whether she buys this or a Mac.

It just occured to me, I'm typing this on an old IBM that doesn't have a working optical drive (it was just a plain CD-ROM when it did work) and hasn't for about 2 years. Everything is saved to source control and installed from the network, it's not an issue. It's got a slower P4 and more RAM, very little difference CPU performance-wise between it and the Dell in question. I did add spare PCI video card, but just to run a second monitor not because of any shortcomings of the onboard video.

Also the idea that every PC gets hosed by some virus is just not the reality these days. All you need to do is run a virus scanner (free), firewall (included), and let your OS updates auto-install (the default I think for XP sp2). Most ISPs do server side scanning these days so a reasonably wary user could probably even get away with no virus protection. I haven't seen a virus actually hit my mailbox in probably two years.

[newwavedave]

Hmmm, what happened to bigheadache? I was expecting a serious flaming from him. Oh well, I guess his POC died. :D

[IJ Reilly]

Ah, but it is the perfect machine for her, Grandma falls squarely in that population who doesn't bother backing up even if she did have the means so why pay extra.

You're right that Granny isn't going to have the skills to add a aftermarket part, but really she's going to need someone to handhold her though getting the machine configured for her whether she buys this or a Mac.

It just occured to me, I'm typing this on an old IBM that doesn't have a working optical drive (it was just a plain CD-ROM when it did work) and hasn't for about 2 years. Everything is saved to source control and installed from the network, it's not an issue. It's got a slower P4 and more RAM, very little difference CPU performance-wise between it and the Dell in question. I did add spare PCI video card, but just to run a second monitor not because of any shortcomings of the onboard video.

Also the idea that every PC gets hosed by some virus is just not the reality these days. All you need to do is run a virus scanner (free), firewall (included), and let your OS updates auto-install (the default I think for XP sp2). Most ISPs do server side scanning these days so a reasonably wary user could probably even get away with no virus protection. I haven't seen a virus actually hit my mailbox in probably two years.

I hardly know any PC users who haven't been hit by a virus and a great many of them have lost everything at least once. A recent study concluded that a substantial majority of PCs are infested with spyware and half of the owners didn't even know it. So the idea that this has suddenly become a non-issue is just plain silly, counterfactual and bad advice besides. Do Grandma a favor. Buy her a Mac.

[FadeToBlack]

I hardly know any PC users who haven't been hit by a virus and a great many of them have lost everything at least once. A recent study concluded that a substantial majority of PCs are infested with spyware and half of the owners didn't even know it. So the idea that this has suddenly become a non-issue is just plain silly, counterfactual and bad advice besides. Do Grandma a favor. Buy her a Mac.

I concur.

I've had a few people get me to "fix their computers." All that was wrong was that they were TOTALLY infested with spyware. I'm talking BAD, too. Like 500-1000 matches in Ad Aware, if I remember correctly. It's crazy stuff. They didn't have working virus scanners, either.

[jackieonasses]

Only if they bought it in 2005. Come on seriously, even fanboys know its well past its expiry date.

expiry?

I guess most people here became fanboys - I think the G4 is no longer the Premiere chip.. (the G5 took that spot) And i have a G5 at my job... and a G4 at home and see little difference (except for massive h.264 encoding of course)

you are silly.

kyle

[dotdotdot]

FREE PRINTER!!! BUT, it costs $25 to connect it to your computer... riiight...

[CanadaRAM]

Do you consider them a used car dealer because they let you buy a striped down machine and let you pick the options you want, because they charge shipping?
Because they prominently advertise a price $299 right beside a prominient "Free Shipping" banner, with a teeny weeny "*on purchases over $499" and then sock you $79 - $129 (depending on what day it is and what product it is) for ground shipping that costs $20. Classic, sleazy sales tactics.

[Dr.Gargoyle]

After reading this thread and a couple of others, I have one question. What is so bad with the G4? Ok, it is a bit slower than the G5, big deal. My guess is that most people are packing waaayy to much computing power. Some people in video editing might push their machines to the limit, but I doubt this goes for the majority of users here.
I am still playing around with a PM G4 with dual 1.25GHz. To call this machine outdated is absurd. It will fulfill my need many years to come, since I don't use it as a playbox nor for video editing. Those of you that claim the G4 is outdated should dropby your local university so you can have a look at what the scientists use. I can't talk for all of us, but most people in research use oldish machines. Smaller computations/simulations can be made on your "oldish" computer without any problem. (so it might take 5 min longer than on the latest machine....big deal) When you need to do some serious heavy duty computing, you use server clusters. you NEVER your desktop then.
My very unscientific conclusion is that people with the latest and greatest are often people with the least need of computing power.

Moreover, if you use your computer professionally you should value reliability much more higher than x% faster machine. It just takes one big crash to lose the advantage you get from a faster machine.
Sidenot: This insight was what finally made me leave the windows platform. One hickup and two weeks of work was gone forever.
Ask yourself how much of your day you spend waiting for the computer to complete its task. You have now also answered how much you need a faster machine.

[jsw]

After reading this thread and a couple of others, I have one question. What is so bad with the G4?
I think one often-overlooked advantage to the G4 is its efficiency - an iBook can run for 5-6 hours per charge (a bit less for PBs). That is much longer than comparably quick PCs. If you need vast CPU power, then, no, an xBook isn't for you, but if you want something that will last an entire flight/day at class/etc., the G4 is quite a nice chip. And it's faster than it's given credit for.

[Dr.Gargoyle]

I think one often-overlooked advantage to the G4 is its efficiency - an iBook can run for 5-6 hours per charge (a bit less for PBs). That is much longer than comparably quick PCs. If you need vast CPU power, then, no, an xBook isn't for you, but if you want something that will last an entire flight/day at class/etc., the G4 is quite a nice chip. And it's faster than it's given credit for.
My point was just too question some peoples irrational need for speed. As you pointed out, I need reliability over anything else. Who doesn't prefer a slower computer that is actually working, than a fast computer with a dead battery.
Consequently, I might be one of very few here that doesn't long for the G5 PB, unless it has equal or superior battery time.
Well, I would appriciate if it didn't cought fire too. ;)

[Bigheadache]

expiry?

I guess most people here became fanboys - I think the G4 is no longer the Premiere chip.. (the G5 took that spot) And i have a G5 at my job... and a G4 at home and see little difference (except for massive h.264 encoding of course)

you are silly.

kyle

Fanboy? that's funny since i don't actually own my own G5. Only a G4 and an A64. You might want to check iCal... you'll find its 2005 and the world has developed since FSBs were 166mhz. I wouldn't buy a G4 in 2005.


Hmmm, what happened to bigheadache? I was expecting a serious flaming from him. Oh well, I guess his POC died.

I actually work everyday. If I my Mac was not a POS then I could probably have more time to chat with you.


Great. I'm really happy to hear about your personal needs. Now let's look at the needs of the consumers who are much more likely to buy this $298 Dell or a Mac Mini. They don't even know what G5 and P4 mean. Do you really think that they are EVER going to use a computer for anything more than email, Office, and web-browsing? Hey, maybe they'll even use it to sync up their iPod.

For all of these tasks, a G4 is more than enough hardware. You needing to calculate floating points or render digital video doesn't make the G4 a POS.

Hmm, don't know about that. Have you seen Apple's advertising? A big deal is made of photo/video editing and media related stuff. Sounds like G5 territory to me.


Classic elitism at its most evident. At least a G5? Now let's see, the previous gen iMac had a G5 1.6 variant, while the latest Powerbooks hit G4 1.67 - widely accepted as offering *very* similar performance. Yet the new Powerbook won't be good enough for ya, then?

Interesting.

andy.

Interesting.

Not doubting you but that's pretty disappointing if thats true. Mac hardware is further behind than I originally thought.

[IJ Reilly]

Or maybe it's the PC hardware that's further behind than you thought.