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mmmdreg
Oct 14, 2002, 07:06 AM
The news was pretty big in Australia with those hundreds killed, lots being Aussie tourists...what do you think of this car bomb attack? terrorism? if so, what are your views?

freedom
Oct 14, 2002, 08:19 AM
I´m sticking my chin out on this one...

As long as the US keep sanctioning Israel in their
crusade against the muslim (and christian) palestinians
the "terror" will go on.
Muslim groups around the world will keep on
trying to kill westeners in general, "guided"
by the Saudi Scheik bin Laden.
(Big brother is watching...)
Not "guided" as in controlled by, but rather
inspired and/or trained by his network.
It´s really sad, but a change has to come.
Why can´t the UN act as "world-police" instead
of the US?
Imagine if USA and the UK start bombing Iraq.
That would really tick off muslims around the globe,
fuelling the extremists/terrorists to kill even more
westeners.
All acts of terrorism are horrible and I hope
we all can live in peace one day.

My thoughts are with all of you who have lost
someone in the recent acts of terrorism.

Mr. Anderson
Oct 14, 2002, 08:43 AM
Saturday night, a bunch of us went out to dinner (Moroccan) and discussion turned to terrism in general (might have been influenced by the venue or the belly dancer) and someone mentioned that the US State Department had issued a warning for travelling to Indonesia. But we also decided that Bali probably wouldn't be as affected, being mostly a Hindu enclave the worlds most populous Muslim Nation.

How shocked and amazed was I reading the paper the next morning! Damn, its totally stupid - and they even hit the American Embassy on Bali as well.

They're only hurting themselves, tourism is the main income for the island and by scaring money away its going to cause even more problems. Idiots and fools who listen to zealots, its such a stupid waste of purpose. I just hope it doesn't continue.

D

jelloshotsrule
Oct 14, 2002, 08:54 AM
sorry for my lack of knowledge here... but was the act performed by bali natives or whatever?

if not, then i don't think they would care much about the tourism of the place....

and i agree, the US foreign policy needs a drastic change... it's all about stubbornness at this point...

stepping back from the massive pro israel stance would be seen as admitting defeat/being wrong/etc.... egos in washington are the only thing they have really. certainly no dignity there.

freedom
Oct 14, 2002, 08:58 AM
Me and my girlfriend are (still) planning on going
to Indonesia this spring. But right now it seems
a bit too risky.

Yes, they´re destroying the tourism industry,
and it will be a devastating blow to many
Indonesians trying to make a living.
But creating an economic turmoil might
result in the overthrowing of Indonesia´s
present government, which is led by a hindu.
The people responsible for this deed want
Indonesia to become an Islamic state,
with sharia and all…
The problem is really that this is not an isolated
problem, it seems to be going on in all Eurasia
and in some parts of Africa as well.

The next decade might get scary...

Mr. Anderson
Oct 14, 2002, 09:00 AM
Its assumed that its Muslim extremist, but no ones sure yet. Balinese people are a little different from the rest of the islands, not only just because they're mostly Hindu. Its a note worthy target for terrorists - because out of all of the areas, its the most visited by foriegners. Bastards

mymemory
Oct 14, 2002, 09:20 AM
Guys, it is not Indonesia, it is happening in the entire world. Politicians are doing nothing, Bush wants a bigger war, the media just want the best selling news in place of inform. CNN is called "Comunist News Network" the filtering everything until is too late for every body. They do not talk about Venezuela, Colombia, Argentina, Brazil. CNN doesn't touch anything about comunism or guerrilla, just light "news". Jimmy Carter is messing our country with his intervention.

The entire world is falling in to a sublime civil war and thats include the US. Right now you are terrify because ONE serial killer in Washington, here in Caracas we have at list 40 death just in week ends. What are you gonna do when you have not one, but 30 serial killers in every city?

Now you can understand some of my rush.

The attack in Indonesia is comunist, just because the comunist are pointing to the economy of each region so they can destroy the industry, blame the companies and buy the people for a very low amount of money and creatting anarqui makeing people to fight agains each others, rich agains pour and blacks against white. Remember what I just said because that is what is going on in my country in the last 4 years, it is like a cancer.

jelloshotsrule
Oct 14, 2002, 09:51 AM
a serial killer is very different from a civil war.

you are in the midst of a more war oriented time in your country. that is to say, to you it is more commonplace to see 40 people killed in a weekend... and the government is in turmoil. etc

however, in the us, we are not in the state of war (on our own ground) in the sense that we are not carrying guns around in our daily lives and such.... so for us, the 8(?) people killed in a very sniper like fashion is a big deal. it is called perspective. it's terrible that 40 people died in your country. terrible that 8 people died here. and terrible that however many died in bali.

also, i don't think communism is the root of all this evil being done as you seem to think. heck, america is not communist (by any stretch) and we're not exactly doing things right.

and yeah, of course cnn is a joke. just as with all news stations. they are pandering to the people and the politicians. you seem to think that all americans therefore think this way, and you're wrong there. americans have far less control over their news than you might think. we cannot even have our candidates participate in fair campaigns, debates, etc.

etc etc.

not knowing anything about bali, it's interesting to see the reasoning behind it (hindu population/leader with lots of foreigners visiting)... ahhh.

Jays
Oct 14, 2002, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by freedom
As long as the US keep sanctioning Israel in their crusade against the muslim (and christian) palestinians the "terror" will go on.


I am not sure if you are a muslim or just an anti-Semite, but what exactly do you mean by the Israeli crusade? Israel is just trying to protect it's civilians from more than 50 years from terrorist acts, no other nation had to deal with so much terror!
If the U.S. stop backing up Israel then most likely Israel will be destroyed and millions will die. Not that you seem to care when Israeli's die.
If the Palestinian plight was really important to the Muslim / Arab world then they would have helped the Palestinian people a long time ago, the arab world is just using the Palestinian people to try and destroy the state of israel and they don't care a dam if all Palestinians will die for the "cause".
I do believe that the situation will get worse before it gets any better, but fighting terror is and should be the priority of every country right now, and the US should lead the effort as it is the most powerful nation at the moment.
Peace will come to the world but good faith and nice words don't impress terrorists, there goal is to kill as many as possible innocent people, people like this should be struck down before they strike at you. And that does include Sadam!

marcsiry
Oct 14, 2002, 11:02 AM
This and other incidents demonstrates that recent events aren't a case of the "opressed world" vs. the U.S.

That club in Bali was well known as an Australian hangout, according to a friend who traveled their many times.

This should serve as a wake-up call to all Westerners- don't think you're safe just because you've sewn a Canadian flag to your backpack. It isn't US support of Israel that fundamentalists are fighting against- it's the pervasive influence that Western culture is effecting on their backwards beliefs (radical notions like women should be able to read, etc.)

This is a culture clash but it's not Christian vs. Muslim, or anyone vs. Muslim. It's the developed/developing world vs. fundamentalists of every stripe... regardless of religion.

Television, internet, air travel- all these things destroy distance and isolation, and threaten those cultures that can't stand the competition. Those cultures respond by lashing out, and sowing intolerance of anyone perceived to be threatening their way of life.

Paradoxically, in the modern world the one thing we can't afford to tolerate is intolerance.

macktheknife
Oct 14, 2002, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by freedom
Why can´t the UN act as "world-police" instead
of the US?

Why do people believe that the UN is some sort of benevolent world government? It is merely an organization and forum for countries to iron out their differences. It is a body consisting of many countries whose interests are divergent and very different. For instance, the US was kicked off the UN human rights committee, and the whole world wagged their fingers at the US in delight (China was particularly thrilled). What was not said by much of the media was who the UN human rights committee was. Besides Western European countries like France, Vietnam and Saudi Arabia (countries hardly known for the humane treatment of their people) were part of the committee.

Anyhow, I'll end my rant. Just an opinion, so no flames. We Mac users--whatever religion and ethnicity--can at least get along, right? :D

agreenster
Oct 14, 2002, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Jays

Israel is just trying to protect it's civilians from more than 50 years from terrorist acts, no other nation had to deal with so much terror!


Dont forget though, the Palestinians had been occupying that land for 1000 years before the 1950's when Isreal was reformed as a nation. I realize you could argue that the Jewish people were there 'first,' but to put it in perspective, let me make an analogy:

Imagine how upset you would be if millions of Native Americans suddenly took over YOUR house and YOUR land, and told you to get lost (and was backed by one of the most powerful nations on earth)... Regardless of how RIGHT they would be, you would still be willing to kill and be killed to get 'your' land back for future generations.

So be careful, because the above poster had a good point: It really shouldnt be OUR war anymore. We (the US) have helped the israelis as much as we could, and we should no longer feed them heaps of weapons to kill Palestinians.

I also think its wrong that the US is so drawn to sticking their nose into everyone elses business and plays police officer of the world.

Jays
Oct 14, 2002, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by agreenster


Dont forget though, the Palestinians had been occupying that land for 1000 years before the 1950's when Isreal was reformed as a nation.

I understand your analogie, but you can not compare the tragic Native American history to the Palestinians witch never had a state of there own, they definitely where not there for 1000 years, they are refugees, they live in Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon... they are mistreated and have been oppressed in Arab countries too, Jordan for instance is mostly a Palestinian country with a very small minority which rules them with a much "harder hand" than Israel does.
If Israel wanted to "get rid" of the palestinians they could do it in 24 hours, but that would be against what most Israelis believe in, having the might but not using it, been restraint, is a very nobel thing in my opinion, what do you think would have happened if the Palestinians had the might in there hands... not one Israeli would be alive today. Palestinians are a frustrated people and they chose Israel as the one to blame for all there problems.

The u.s. is not just poking it's nose around the world, there is more to it, politics, money and the fact that it is the currant empire of the world and it has to show the world that it is powerful, thats how it always been, Greek, Roman, British... empires, Microsoft.!!!

Chaszmyr
Oct 14, 2002, 04:00 PM
Why can't the UN act as world police instead of the US? Have you ever taken notice of whenever the UN or NATO does anything? 80% of the force usually comes from the US anyway... In terms of saving time its in the US' best interest to act unillaterally.

e-coli
Oct 14, 2002, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by marcsiry
This and other incidents demonstrates that recent events aren't a case of the "opressed world" vs. the U.S.

That club in Bali was well known as an Australian hangout, according to a friend who traveled their many times.

This should serve as a wake-up call to all Westerners- don't think you're safe just because you've sewn a Canadian flag to your backpack. It isn't US support of Israel that fundamentalists are fighting against- it's the pervasive influence that Western culture is effecting on their backwards beliefs (radical notions like women should be able to read, etc.)

This is a culture clash but it's not Christian vs. Muslim, or anyone vs. Muslim. It's the developed/developing world vs. fundamentalists of every stripe... regardless of religion.

Television, internet, air travel- all these things destroy distance and isolation, and threaten those cultures that can't stand the competition. Those cultures respond by lashing out, and sowing intolerance of anyone perceived to be threatening their way of life.

Paradoxically, in the modern world the one thing we can't afford to tolerate is intolerance.

This is the most intelligent dissection I have ever heard regarding this subject.

You know, I go to the BBC site a lot (because it's the least jigoistic and sensationalized news), and I read some of those "talking points" comments. It never ceases to amaze me. I think so many people (particularly Europeans) are living in this cute little cushy fantasy warld. They all talk about "global equality" and "western opression", and call for a distribution of the worlds wealth. Well, that's a fine solution, but it's hardly going to change things. It's hardly going to give the Muslim world determination to advance on multiple fronts.

I hate to see the West faulted and chastised for inventing the airplane, the automobile, the telephone, the computer, high-strength steel, the light bulb, harnessing electricity, making dramatic strides in science and medicine, and contributing to countless other civilized advancements. The "poor, downtrodden" peoples, as we so tactfully call them, have contributed little - a minuscule lot in comparison - to the advancement of mankind. Like it or not it's, sadly, true.

Yet we are being made to feel guilty because of our hard work, our research, and our ability to fend for ourselves, establish our own governments, and choose our own destiny. Those that hate the West are simply trying to justify their relatively dim contributions to civilization through moral fabrications, manipulation of ignorant, and terror. If they wanted to attack the true causes of their opression, they should attack, and rebuild, their own socio-economic institutions.

We shouldn't be so quick to blame the West for the world’s problems. If we want to pinpoint a true cause, we should blame lack of civilized advancement amongst these peoples.

Just my $.02

macktheknife
Oct 14, 2002, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by e-coli


This is the most intelligent dissection I have ever heard regarding this subject.

You know, I go to the BBC site a lot (because it's the least jigoistic and sensationalized news), and I read some of those "talking points" comments. It never ceases to amaze me. I think so many people (particularly Europeans) are living in this cute little cushy fantasy warld. They all talk about "global equality" and "western opression", and call for a distribution of the worlds wealth. Well, that's a fine solution, but it's hardly going to change things. It's hardly going to give the Muslim world determination to advance on multiple fronts.

I hate to see the West faulted and chastised for inventing the airplane, the automobile, the telephone, the computer, high-strength steel, the light bulb, harnessing electricity, making dramatic strides in science and medicine, and contributing to countless other civilized advancements. The "poor, downtrodden" peoples, as we so tactfully call them, have contributed little - a minuscule lot in comparison - to the advancement of mankind. Like it or not it's, sadly, true.

Yet we are being made to feel guilty because of our hard work, our research, and our ability to fend for ourselves, establish our own governments, and choose our own destiny. Those that hate the West are simply trying to justify their relatively dim contributions to civilization through moral fabrications, manipulation of ignorant, and terror. If they wanted to attack the true causes of their opression, they should attack, and rebuild, their own socio-economic institutions.

We shouldn't be so quick to blame the West for the world’s problems. If we want to pinpoint a true cause, we should blame lack of civilized advancement amongst these peoples.

Just my $.02

Oh boy. I think you should be very careful about what you say. While it is true that the oppressors of the people of the Third World are their own governments or elite, we should not forget that it was Western Imperialism that got many of these countries in their present predicament. Many of these countries--rightly or wrongly--still harbor deep resentment against the West for past subjugation and exploitation. Easy enough for the West to let bygones be bygones; much more difficult more someone living in some African country torn by civil war because the Western Powers drew some lines on a map without regard to region's ethnic makeup.

e-coli
Oct 14, 2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by macktheknife


Oh boy. I think you should be very careful about what you say. While it is true that the oppressors of the people of the Third World are their own governments or elite, we should not forget that it was Western Imperialism that got many of these countries in their present predicament. Many of these countries--rightly or wrongly--still harbor deep resentment against the West for past subjugation and exploitation. Easy enough for the West to let bygones be bygones; much more difficult more someone living in some African country torn by civil war because the Western Powers drew some lines on a map without regard to region's ethnic makeup.

This has happened all over the world, in every reagion of the globe. it's nobody's "fault". The same thing happened here in America. the French, British and Spanish were happily divvying up the territoy; it's just that we were having nothing to do with it. We took it upon ourselves to reject the manner in which we were to be divided and governed. In many ways we innovated our way into conquering huge armies, and unnecessary division. And it brought about a renaissance like the world has never seen. The same thing could happen in other countries, with other cultures.

All I'm saying is, the problem lies within the respective societies which are feeling the pressure of Western influence. It's up to the people to force change in their own institutions. I mean all institutions; economic, educational, religious, governmental. If it isn't working it needs reformed. Attacking the Western World is hardly going to help the economic and social advancement of the people in underdeveloped societies. Education, economic, and political reform will. Leaders can't lead if nobody is following.

mymemory
Oct 14, 2002, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by Chaszmyr
Why can't the UN act as world police instead of the US? Have you ever taken notice of whenever the UN or NATO does anything? 80% of the force usually comes from the US anyway... In terms of saving time its in the US' best interest to act unillaterally.

Your statistics are nicer than mine, when the UN does anything 80% OF THE COUNTRY is already destroyed. 8 years ago we had 16 death during week ends in my country, today the president is shootint civilians (the 40 people we have every weekend are death by political reasons). Is the UN doing something? of course not. 2 month ago a lady president of one of the civiliand groups against the president went to the UN to ask for intervention and took a bunch of documents with her, they told her "we are very bussy for that kind of things right now".

madamimadam
Oct 14, 2002, 10:56 PM
I do not see that these recent events are anything different from those that have been happening previously. Indonesia has ALWAYS been the target of bombings but because it happens so often people stopped caring but now that it happens in Bali everyone thinks a new war is beginning.

Indonesia is no less safe now than it ever was and I would not decide not to go to Bali tomorrow because of this.

In fact, one terrorist analysit I was listening to made a fantastic point that Muslums are against music and dancing and the attack was likely just an extremest protesting.

Let us not be swayed by a media with crocodile tears.

The US gets hit and suddenly the world is going to end.... I am suprised is has not happened sooner.

In Australia people are even saying it was an attack against Australians because it is a huge Australian tourist area. Now THAT is just ************. Can we be hit by terrorism here in Australia, yes, are we more likely to be hit than any other country, hell no. If we get hit, it will not be some continuation of the US events it will be an unrelated event that would have happened no matter what occured on Sept. 11.