Someone needs to pay for all my childrens

[ericrwalker]

Someone needs to be held accountable? :eek:

I found this story to be interesting, actually makes me a little angry and sad. I can barely afford the one I got and I have a good job and my wife works as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bavou_SEj1E

[Zombie Acorn]

Obama! Why you no pay for my kids!!/

Worthless people like this shouldn't be allowed to have kids. Meanwhile other people put off having any kids until they are financial sound so they can afford to raise them. Idiocracy might be a depiction of true events.

[cshearer]

If you can't afford to support a child, then just be more responsible in terms of sex? Aka, don't do it? I'm all for sex, but not if you're going to push out 12 babies and then beg the state to help. I think social safety nets are flawed, but necessary. This lady just gives ammo to conservatives.

[ericrwalker]

I am not heartless, and I know people fall on hard times.

The thing is the lady didn't say, I don't like like other people paying for my responsibilities...she said someone needs to take responsibility. She needs to start with the mirror, take a look at herself and make a change. (not sure why MJ is in my head)

[mkrishnan]

If you can't afford to support a child, then just be more responsible in terms of sex? Aka, don't do it? I'm all for sex, but not if you're going to push out 12 babies and then beg the state to help.

I haven't been able to watch the video yet, but the problem is that this appears to be exactly the opposite of human behavior. Those least qualified to raise children are the most prolific, while more qualified people defer having children longer and longer until we're no longer viable or have to go through fertility hoops to create them.

EDIT: Mein Gott im Himmel. Those bishops who don't want the church to have to pay health insurance companies to provide contraception should be made to watch this video over and over until they gain some common sense.

[ericrwalker]

Yeah Mike Judge made the movie about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy


I haven't been able to watch the video yet, but the problem is that this appears to be exactly the opposite of human behavior. Those least qualified to raise children are the most prolific, while more qualified people defer having children longer and longer until we're no longer viable or have to go through fertility hoops to create them.

[mkrishnan]

Yeah Mike Judge made the movie about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

Oh, sorry I missed the reference. :o I think when I had Netflix, this was on my queue, but I never got around to watching it. I'll have to see if I can pick it up.

[cshearer]

I haven't been able to watch the video yet, but the problem is that this appears to be exactly the opposite of human behavior. Those least qualified to raise children are the most prolific, while more qualified people defer having children longer and longer until we're no longer viable or have to go through fertility hoops to create them.

EDIT: Mein Gott im Himmel. Those bishops who don't want the church to have to pay health insurance companies to provide contraception should be made to watch this video over and over until they gain some common sense.I mean, looking at it in the evolutionary psychological sense, it somewhat makes sense. Of course we're not evolving anymore, but old habits die hard. In the grip of poverty and lack if proper food and nutrition, some people may succumb to their instinct of proliferating heavily in an attempt to ensure the survival of their genes.

Of course, I agree with what you said about contraception. This whole war on Planned Parenthood and the like is really somewhat scary; the fact that access to contraceptives and proper education could prevent cases like in the OP really makes you wonder about the "moral majority".

[ericrwalker]

You didn't miss a great movie, at best it was an okay movie with a few "stupid funny" scenes. It does play 100% in the dumb over breeding and the smart under breeding.

Oh, sorry I missed the reference. :o I think when I had Netflix, this was on my queue, but I never got around to watching it. I'll have to see if I can pick it up.

[mkrishnan]

I mean, looking at it in the evolutionary psychological sense, it somewhat makes sense. Of course we're not evolving anymore, but old habits die hard. In the grip of poverty and lack if proper food and nutrition, some people may succumb to their instinct of proliferating heavily in an attempt to ensure the survival of their genes.

Yes, I don't think just blaming poor people will solve anything. Arguably moving as many of them as possible into some kind of middle class lifestyle should produce the same benefits for them as it did for the rest of us. My parents had 8 and 9 siblings, respectively, which was common in India in the 30s and 40s when they were born, for the infant mortality and eldercare reasons you raise, and I don't think any of that small army of uncles and aunties has more than three kids, which of course still gives me an insane number of cousins :D In India, you still see that in poor populations but it's pretty unheard of in the middle class, which of course is still not enough for them to tame their population growth curve.

I wonder what else is necessary. Forced sterilization programs were an awful idea, but you do almost wonder if at some point there is some kind of competency issue involved (and women like this one would arguably be no longer competent to continue making their own reproductive choices).

Just looking actuarially, the likely costs associated with those 15 children over the next 70-80 years when they may be alive is frightful, including the fact that, statistically, it is highly likely that some of them will end up incarcerated at some point, others will end up on some kind of welfare program, etc. Our society does not have a structure that is likely to lead many of these children to an adulthood in which they are independent living and gainfully employed.

It raises a hard question also of how we are supposed to compete with the developing world if we spend our resources on solving this kind of problem instead of developing talent.

[mscriv]

Of course, I agree with what you said about contraception. This whole war on Planned Parenthood and the like is really somewhat scary; the fact that access to contraceptives and proper education could prevent cases like in the OP really makes you wonder about the "moral majority".

Here's the thing we have to remind ourselves. Access to contraception is irrelevant if the person is not willing to be responsible in the first place. Do you really believe someone who wants others to "take responsibility" for them would be responsible enough to "take responsibility" for themselves in the heat of the moment?


Our society does not have a structure that is likely to lead many of these children to an adulthood in which they are independent living and gainfully employed.

Actually, foster care and adoption do provide many children with the opportunity to learn the skills they need to be independent and responsible. Does it save every child? No, but each one it does save matters.

[ericrwalker]

It raises a hard question also of how we are supposed to compete with the developing world if we spend our resources on solving this kind of problem instead of developing talent.


This. I hate the idea of "I am my brother's keeper". I am not nor do I wish to be. I have no problem with pointing my brother in the right direction, but I refuse to take responsibility for you.

[mkrishnan]

Here's the thing we have to remind ourselves. Access to contraception is irrelevant if the person is not willing to be responsible in the first place. Do you really believe someone who wants others to "take responsibility" for them would be responsible enough to "take responsibility" for themselves in the heat of the moment?

This is where I think the hard question (like whether someone who is not MR or otherwise significantly decision-impaired in a general way can be incompetent to make reproductive choices) comes up.

Actually, foster care and adoption do provide many children with the opportunity to learn the skills they need to be independent and responsible. Does it save every child? No, but each one it does save matters.

Yes, Michigan is putting some good infrastructure in place to increase access to college and job training for kids who are aging out of foster care. I don't know that much about outcome rates in this population; I would be particularly concerned about young African American kids, especially if they don't make it through high school by the time they age out of foster care.

This. I hate the idea of "I am my brother's keeper". I am not nor do I wish to be. I have no problem with pointing my brother in the right direction, but I refuse to take responsibility for you.

Yeah... I guess the problem with this is always, once the child has been created, what does one do? If one doesn't do anything now, one doesn't necessarily escape cost (e.g. having to pay for incarcerating them as well as the cost to productivity their crime creates in the first place, which is not cheap).

[ericrwalker]

Yeah... I guess the problem with this is always, once the child has been created, what does one do? If one doesn't do anything now, one doesn't necessarily escape cost (e.g. having to pay for incarcerating them as well as the cost to productivity their crime creates in the first place, which is not cheap).

Yeah, it's a catch 22. I don't blame a child for their parents' lack of responsibility.

[Ugg]

Obama! Why you no pay for my kids!!/

Worthless people like this shouldn't be allowed to have kids. Meanwhile other people put off having any kids until they are financial sound so they can afford to raise them. Idiocracy might be a depiction of true events.

What's the alternative? Let this family live on the street?

This lady just gives ammo to conservatives.

The conservatives with their "Go forth and multiply (without contraceptives or family counseling or easy access to abortion)" have created the situation for her.

I am not heartless, and I know people fall on hard times.

The thing is the lady didn't say, I don't like like other people paying for my responsibilities...she said someone needs to take responsibility. She needs to start with the mirror, take a look at herself and make a change. (not sure why MJ is in my head)

The thing is, it's too late for her. What would her child care bill be?


Of course, I agree with what you said about contraception. This whole war on Planned Parenthood and the like is really somewhat scary; the fact that access to contraceptives and proper education could prevent cases like in the OP really makes you wonder about the "moral majority".

Right wing fundamentalists rejoice when it comes to the Duggars making a fortune off their reality "human breeder" shows but find it repulsive when the people involved have a different color skin.

It's really scary.

Here's the thing we have to remind ourselves. Access to contraception is irrelevant if the person is not willing to be responsible in the first place. Do you really believe someone who wants others to "take responsibility" for them would be responsible enough to "take responsibility" for themselves in the heat of the moment?

Actually, foster care and adoption do provide many children with the opportunity to learn the skills they need to be independent and responsible. Does it save every child? No, but each one it does save matters.

So you don't think the national discussion on reproductive rights and responsibilities has anything to do with it? I think it does.

[kavika411]

Right wing fundamentalists rejoice when it comes to the Duggars making a fortune off their reality "human breeder" shows but find it repulsive when the people involved have a different color skin.

And left wing culture warriors rejoice when it comes to needlessly playing the race card.

[Macky-Mac]

And left wing culture warriors rejoice when it comes to needlessly playing the race card.

but how can you complain? it gives right wing culture warriors a chance to rejoice and play the "left wing culture warriors" card! :p

[obeygiant]

but how can you complain? it gives right wing culture warriors a chance to rejoice and play the "left wing culture warriors" card! :p

I only have reverse and a draw two....

[ericrwalker]

I only have reverse and a draw two....

Hold on, I think I have a wild card.

[newappleboy]

Saw this last night and was very frustrated with it. One on hand I want to feel sorry for the situation she and her kids are currently in, but on the other hand I want her to realize that it's nobody's responsibility but hers to take care of those kids. It would be one thing if she asked for help, but to demand it and act as though she has had no fault in their current situation is an entirely different matter.

This isn't someone who accidentally ended up with multiple sets of twins or triplets, or someone who was raped and ended up with children she didn't want - this woman had a large number of children with the same man, and then turns around with her hands out asking for others to support her active decision to have sex and reproduce. She takes it a step further to threaten social service workers when they try to assess the situation and help.

Her sister even chimes in about how they just want to get their family back and they just want everyone to leave them alone, yet I don't remember seeing anything about the sister trying to help feed them when they had no food, or get them clothes when they were wearing the same dirty clothes for 3 days, or offering her home as a place to help them stay when they were all squeezed in a motel room. It seems she's more than willing to allow the state to support her sister rather than help support her herself. Not saying that family members have to do this, just saying that I don't think it's right for her to chime in without being willing to do anything (at least as far as we've seen thus far). Another family member was supposed to take the children (or some of them) to help, but after meeting with the mother about it he decided he didn't want to anymore. Really? Those kids need stability and food and shelter, it is way beyond what the mother wants at this point. :confused:

[obeygiant]

This is a sad situation, for this lady.

[samiwas]

I certainly hope that people don't think that "liberals" or pretty much anyone supports people like this. I'm pretty darn liberal, but I don't believe anyone who isn't well off should be having twelve kids (well, I don't think ANYONE should have twelve kids, but that's my opinion). And, forgive me for believing that this lady was never well off.

I fully support public programs to assist families in need, but this is beyond what I can support.

[Gelfin]

Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

[kavika411]

Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

No, but there are strawman arguments.

[torbjoern]

No, but there are strawman arguments.
Like this:

[kavika411]

Like this:

Yep, but more like this:

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/5555/boysinfactory.jpg

[mscriv]

Here's the thing we have to remind ourselves. Access to contraception is irrelevant if the person is not willing to be responsible in the first place. Do you really believe someone who wants others to "take responsibility" for them would be responsible enough to "take responsibility" for themselves in the heat of the moment?

So you don't think the national discussion on reproductive rights and responsibilities has anything to do with it? I think it does.

Sorry Ugg, but I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make. Please expound.

I agree with you that "after the fact" we have to deal with the problem before us instead of complaining about what could have been. With that in mind, what I'm saying is that the debate regarding education and abstinence vs. education and contraception is an irrelevant debate in the case of irresponsibility. Both abstinence and contraception fail when the individual involved takes no responsibility and ignores either option.

[ericrwalker]

I like the fact that you put rights and responsibilities together. Some people only look at the individuals rights and responsibilities. I think this woman has the right to produce "unlimited" children, but she also has the responsibility to care for (food, clothes, medical).

When she fails to provide for her kids, I (we) become responsible for them. Where is my right to be free from her? Can I opt out? The only way for me to opt out of be responsible for her and her kids is to be a loser myself and receive from the same system.

I believe I can assume that this woman is a produce of social services, and even before her boyfriend went to jail, they were collecting, welfare, food stamps, WIC, HUD and other services provided by "US".






So you don't think the national discussion on reproductive rights and responsibilities has anything to do with it? I think it does.

[mkrishnan]

^^ Even freedom of speech has responsibilities associated with it, which is why most countries do not allow you to scream "fire" in a crowded movie theatre for no reason, without consequences. Of all the things we do, sex is certainly huge in that our reproductive freedom does come with substantial responsibility.

Like this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_t_xlGGymR7U/TAPRp2MRlPI/AAAAAAAAD9s/vAxWoe5f85A/s1600/I+Have+Seen+the+End+No+One+Was+Spared,+Not+Even+the+Children.jpg

[ericrwalker]

That can proven in something as simple as the old "FIRE" in a crowded theater. Yeah I know it can go way beyond that too.

^^ Even freedom of speech has responsibilities associated with it.

[likemyorbs]

The conservatives with their "Go forth and multiply (without contraceptives or family counseling or easy access to abortion)" have created the situation for her.

Give me an effing break and don't turn this into a political debate. This has nothing to do with conservatives. They had no influence on this woman's decisions, i doubt this woman votes republican, actually i doubt she votes at all. As wrong as "abstinence only" education is, it has NOTHING to do with this. This woman failed to use protection and said her children are a "gift from god". She put herself into this situation, she needs to learn to close her legs. I'm as liberal as they come, but i don't have an ounce of compassion for this "woman". I don't normally advocate taking children away in most cases, but she's an unfit mom and i think the kids would be better off without her, even in the overburdened foster care system. Her attitude is the worst part of the situation, she actually has the audacity to say society owes her something. She deserves everything she brought upon herself. I don't think she should ever be allowed to have kids again, she needs to be monitored constantly, if she ever gets pregnant again the baby should immediately be taken from her after birth and adopted out right away. It may be difficult to get the older kids adopted out, but lots of couples are looking for newborns.

[ericrwalker]

Thanks, Nice to see a liberal defend us conservatives when someone makes an obviously stupid comment. I didn't see that post from ugg until you replied.


Give me an effing break and don't turn this into a political debate. This has nothing to do with conservatives. They had no influence on this woman's decisions, i doubt this woman votes republican, actually i doubt she votes at all.

[bradl]

I am not heartless, and I know people fall on hard times.

The thing is the lady didn't say, I don't like like other people paying for my responsibilities...she said someone needs to take responsibility. She needs to start with the mirror, take a look at herself and make a change. (not sure why MJ is in my head)

Don't worry.. I was thinking the same:


If you can't feed your baby (yeah, yeah)
then don't have a baby (yeah yeah)
And don't think maybe (yeah yeah)
if you can't feed your baby (yeah yeah)

You'll be always tryin'
to stop that child from cryin'
hustlin', stealin', lyin'
now baby's slowly dyin'


Whether you liked him or not, Mike wrote and sang some pretty powerful ****.

Back on topic, Octomom and the Old Woman/Shoe nursery rhyme completely come to mind as this does give those on the right ammo, especially when it comes to entitlements. I'd be surprised if this doesn't end up as a clip on some Beck/Coulter/Savage show..

BL.

[likemyorbs]

Thanks, Nice to see a liberal defend us conservatives when someone makes an obviously stupid comment. I didn't see that post from ugg until you replied.

I think there are extreme views on both sides of the political spectrum, and i think Ugg's comment came from the extreme left. I have no issue whatsoever speaking out against that kind of nonsense. It pisses me off.

[mcrain]

How can this not be a political issue when one party pushed for the complete elimination of welfare based on the "welfare queen" driving in her caddy. Remember that figmant of a senile man's imagination? I do.

So, this woman presumably doesn't qualify for unemployment, there are no jobs because the 1% farmed them out to illegal immigrants or moved the jobs overseas, and on top of that, there's no welfare to protect children who share NONE OF THE BLAME.

Every poor child, regardless of how sick and twisted or lazy their parents are, deserve to have a chance to grow up healthy, get an education, and maybe even live the American Dream.

It sickens me to watch today's GOP **** all over people who don't have money for no reason other than they don't have money. It's wrong.

[leekohler]

Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

Once Newt gets the child labor laws abolished, we'll have plenty! Yay! We can let the free market take care of it. I mean, with all those kids willing to work for low wages, just think- we could have manufacturing back in the States in no time!

[renewed]

Every poor child, regardless of how sick and twisted or lazy their parents are, deserve to have a chance to grow up healthy, get an education, and maybe even live the American Dream.

Leaving out the GOP hate... (literally shook my head)...

How would you implement this? I absolutely 1000000% agree that children should not be a victim of their parents. These kids need help. But giving mom $ because she pushed out a football team isn't the answer. The only way it would work would be to have an overseer 24/7 to distribute the welfare FOR the children and only the children.

IMO this lady should somehow be punished for her irresponsibility and expense to society but the children do not deserve to be punished along with her.

[leekohler]

Leaving out the GOP hate... (literally shook my head)...

How would you implement this? I absolutely 1000000% agree that children should not be a victim of their parents. These kids need help. But giving mom $ because she pushed out a football team isn't the answer. The only way it would work would be to have an overseer 24/7 to distribute the welfare FOR the children and only the children.

IMO this lady should somehow be punished for her irresponsibility and expense to society but the children do not deserve to be punished along with her.

You take the kids out of the situation. There is no other truly responsible action.

[mcrain]

Leaving out the GOP hate... (literally shook my head)...

How would you implement this? I absolutely 1000000% agree that children should not be a victim of their parents. These kids need help. But giving mom $ because she pushed out a football team isn't the answer. The only way it would work would be to have an overseer 24/7 to distribute the welfare FOR the children and only the children.

IMO this lady should somehow be punished for her irresponsibility and expense to society but the children do not deserve to be punished along with her.

It's not GOP hate if that's what actually happened.

How would you implement this? Well, first you start reversing the massive transfer of wealth that has occurred in this country over the last 30+ years. Second, you make it unprofitable to ship jobs overseas. Third, you give the government the authority to deny a corporation the right to create subsidiaries, move, or otherwise change structure. Fourth, you put people in charge of the secretary of state offices with the direction to revoke corporate charters. Fifth, you make it a corporate death sentence to donate money to not-for-profits or political campaigns. Sixth, you impose a profit sharing rule requiring a minimum percentage of profits be used for worker wages. Seventh, we put in place real tariffs similar to our competitors. Eighth, remove all limits on unemployment duration. Ninth, put in place healthcare and other basic services so that companies and individuals don't need to worry about that. Tenth, put in place minimum safety net welfare type programs so that even a bum on the corner can eat. Eleventh, massively rework and grow our infrastructure. If China can have a 300mph train, why can't we?

There are a thousand things we could do, every single one of which would help our economy, our people, and even the very people who are opposed to doing them.

(edit) I support taking the kids if you put the poorest kid with the richest family; the second poorest kid with the second richest family, and so on all the way down the line. (edit2) Mandetory with rights of inheiratence.

[Zombie Acorn]

What's the alternative? Let this family live on the street

A birth control shot with her welfare check would have went a long way.

[mcrain]

A birth control shot with her welfare check would have went a long way.

Yeah, how about giving her the option of getting a free birth control shot along with other basic healthcare? Of course that would help!

[likemyorbs]

Yeah, how about giving her the option of getting a free birth control shot along with other basic healthcare? Of course that would help!

Free birth control is available in so many different ways. She CHOSE not to get it. It's 100% her fault. Not the republicans, not the "system", HER fault. She's all hormones and no brains, people like her are what is wrong with society.

[.Andy]

In my mind the worst thing about the whole situation is that it was actually deemed a "news article" and broadcast and followed up multiple times. It's not a story remotely in the public or the children's interest. It's a cynical story just to raise the ire and sanctimony of viewers. It's journa-trolling.


edit: the youtube comments are absolutely disgusting. Rampant racism abounds.

[likemyorbs]

edit: the youtube comments are absolutely disgusting. Rampant racism abounds.

Let's not pretend like this isn't more common in the black community. Racist comments are not right, but blatantly ignoring the problem in the black community and saying "this could be someone of any race" is counterproductive.

[.Andy]

Let's not pretend like this isn't more common in the black community. Racist comments are not right, but blatantly ignoring the problem in the black community and saying "this could be someone of any race" is counterproductive.
Those blacks.

[Aldaris]

Worthless people like this shouldn't be allowed to have kids. Meanwhile other people put off having any kids until they are financial sound so they can afford to raise them. Idiocracy might be a depiction of true events.

And the cycle will continue, exponentially of course.

[torbjoern]

A birth control shot with her welfare check would have went a long way.

Or maybe a tube of superglue.

[likemyorbs]

Those blacks.
Yeah, when will we get to the point where we can discuss a racial issue without be labeled "racist"? You can't keep pretending as if every problem in society is equally spread out among the different races, because that's just not true.

[.Andy]

Yeah, when will we get to the point where we can discuss a racial issue without be labeled "racist"? You can't keep pretending as if every problem in society is equally spread out among the different races, because that's just not true.
If you can please post evidence that being black is causative of "societal problems" which cannot be attributed to confounders like poverty or education level.

If you are unable to do so perhaps you can rethink your claims about "blacks". Being "black" is not the problem despite you zeroing in on it as an issue.

[likemyorbs]

If you can please post evidence that being black is causative of "societal problems" which cannot be attributed to confounders like poverty or education level.

If you are unable to do so perhaps you can rethink your claims about "blacks". Being "black" is not the problem despite you zeroing in on it as an issue.

Did i say being black is the problem? There you go putting words in my mouth, and subtly trying to label me racist. This is exactly the problem i was talking about. It's not their skin color or their genetics that are the problem. It's a problem within their community and their culture. Yes, poverty and education levels in their community are a huge problem. But i don't believe those problems come from the racist white man because he won't hire them or let them into school. I think they create the problem for themselves.

[.Andy]

Did i say being black is the problem? There you go putting words in my mouth, and subtly trying to label me racist. This is exactly the problem i was talking about. It's not their skin color or their genetics that are the problem. It's a problem within their community and their culture.
I see. It's not their black skin it's their "culture" that goes with their black skin that cause societal problems. Perhaps you could post this evidence then?

[likemyorbs]

I see. It's not their black skin it's their "culture" that goes with their black skin that cause societal problems. Perhaps you could post this evidence then?

Do you deny that black people have their own sub-culture within this country? And do you also deny their crime rates are higher than other races and that they have more fatherless households than other races, partially related to their crime rate?

[mkrishnan]

I think they create the problem for themselves.

You're probably on your own defending that one.

There are structural issues that are unique, as far as I understand, to poor black Americans vs. the poor in general -- particularly, rates of incarceration of men who are young, black, and have a <HS education. I'm having the hard time finding exactly the right statistics, but my understanding is that the likelihood of incarceration is much higher for that combination than for {young, white, and have a <HS ed}.

I don't think this is "black people's fault" in any meaningful way, but perhaps there is some ground for race-targeted programs or interventions to try to fix this problem.

[likemyorbs]

I don't think this is "black people's fault" in any meaningful way, but perhaps there is some ground for race-targeted programs or interventions to try to fix this problem.

But there will never be any race targeted programs as long as people keep refusing to acknowledge race.

----------

You're probably on your own defending that one.


So whose fault is it that she failed to use birth control 15 times and her baby daddy went to jail? Mine?

[.Andy]

Do you deny that black people have their own sub-culture within this country? And do you also deny their crime rates are higher than other races and that they have more fatherless households than other races, partially related to their crime rate?
Given you are answering a very simple question with other questions it's plain that you can't back up your claims about "blacks" or "black culture" being causative of any of societal problems.

[likemyorbs]

Given you are answering a very simple question with other questions it's plain that you can't back up your claims about "blacks" or "black culture" being causative of any of societal problems.

And given that you're talking in circles you can't back up your claims that it doesn't. And you failed to answer my questions. Whose fault is the black crime rate and fatherless household rate? Clearly, it's a cultural issue. You would have to be completely blind to deny that, or you just put on your rose colored glasses. I'm really very curious to hear your theory on it.

[Zombie Acorn]

It would be much easier if it were a skin color problem. Unfortunately its something more insidious. A self perpetuating system created by the government to keep people in poverty and not able to help themselves. Don't worry folks, vote for us and we will handle your problems. You can keep living on welfare and having Kids and your kids can follow your example.

If poverty stricken black kids were brought up in an upper class area, with proper parents, and proper schools and sent all the white kids to live in the poor neighborhoods we would see a reversal no doubt.

[likemyorbs]

If poverty stricken black kids were brought up in an upper class area, with proper parents, and proper schools and sent all the white kids to live in the poor neighborhoods we would see a reversal no doubt.

Absolutely, as i said, it's not a color issue, it's a culture issue, and when a certain group of people lives in poverty, it shapes their culture. I do however disagree with your first point, i don't think the government created this problem. You can't just cut all welfare, there are some people who genuinely need it. Not everyone is just lazy and doesn't feel like working like this woman.

[Neolithium]

Skin color = BS. The city I used to live in I volunteered in the lower income areas for school programs and there were plenty of white women with white kids that couldn't afford a thing and they had a different father for each kid. One thing I can't fathom is how someone can be the father of a child and not pay for them. Me and my wife have 4 kids, and yeah it's expensive but I consider it all worth it. (Yes they were all planned and not oopsies :P)

[renewed]

Clearly, it's a cultural issue. You would have to be completely blind to deny that, or you just put on your rose colored glasses. I'm really very curious to hear your theory on it.

It's absolutely a cultural issue but when you dig deeper to find the causation of such an issue it isn't so black and white (aha!).

Speaking about African Americans (USA blacks) you have an entire culture that was left behind for many years. They were slaves while whites were progressing. They weren't allowed the same education, jobs, benefits, rights etc as the rest of the country a little over a half-century ago.

You can't think that a whole culture that was pretty much cutoff from society is going to reform and "fit in" to the rest of society overnight. There is generations of learned behavior that will take time to overcome.

I don't think the cause is because they are "black" but more so because (and .Andy forgive me if I misread you) like .Andy said education and poverty and what I added about being generationally cut off from society.

[.Andy]

And given that you're talking in circles you can't back up your claims that it doesn't
Where did I claim anything? I just asked you a couple of simple questions about your assertions on "blacks" which you were unable to back up. You are making the claims. The onus is on you to back them up with evidence. If you can't (which is clear is the case) your ruminations on "societal ills caused by blacks" is just hot air.

[mkrishnan]

If poverty stricken black kids were brought up in an upper class area, with proper parents, and proper schools and sent all the white kids to live in the poor neighborhoods we would see a reversal no doubt.

Or at least a good Eddie Murphy movie. :)

Look, it's not Likemyorbs' fault that this woman had 15 babies, obviously. I don't think fault is a helpful concept here. As far as responsibility is concerned, she (and the babies' fathers) carry prime responsibility. I think almost everyone agrees with this. But everyone can also agree that they will not be able to bear this load. They carried prime responsibility before the babies were born, and they didn't carry that load, either.

Saying this situation is the "fault" of black people is counterproductive. To Zombie's point, as far as I know the children of the black middle and upper class are not going out there and having 15 babies. And even if it is the "fault" of poor black people, where does that get us?

I don't think it necessary to attribute fault in order to work in a culturally sensitive way to solve this problem as it exists within a variety of communities (poor blacks, whites, Latinos, etc.). I can't speak for .Andy but I don't think the fact that different approaches to solving poverty issues are going to work in Appalachia, downtown Miami, and the South Side of Chicago is a racist statement, and I doubt that's the point being made.

[likemyorbs]

It's absolutely a cultural issue but when you dig deeper to find the causation of such an issue it isn't so black and white (aha!).

Speaking about African Americans (USA blacks) you have an entire culture that was left behind for many years. They were slaves while whites were progressing. They weren't allowed the same education, jobs, benefits, rights etc as the rest of the country a little over a half-decade ago.

You can't think that a whole culture that was pretty much cutoff from society is going to reform and "fit in" to the rest of society overnight. There is generations of learned behavior that will take time to overcome.

I don't think the cause is because they are "black" but more so because (and .Andy forgive me if I misread you) like .Andy said education and poverty and what I added about being generationally cut off from society.

But at some point, there has to be a sense of personal responsibility. And i think you meant to say half-century, not half-decade. The woman in the OP was born after segregation, she grew up with affirmative action and scholarships for blacks to go to college. Regardless of all that, she chose not to use birth control, probably because it "feels better" without a condom, without anymore philosophical reason. And the only explanation she has after the fact is "they were gifts from god". Please, they were gifts from her negligence.

[Zombie Acorn]

Absolutely, as i said, it's not a color issue, it's a culture issue, and when a certain group of people lives in poverty, it shapes their culture. I do however disagree with your first point, i don't think the government created this problem. You can't just cut all welfare, there are some people who genuinely need it. Not everyone is just lazy and doesn't feel like working like this woman.

Its the state of mind that is perpetuated. If you don't work for what you have you can never fully appreciate anything. I'm all for short time welfare and safety nets, but what are willing to do in return for that help? Its not free and its not the governments money, it came out of someones pocket that is busting their ass to get ahead in a society where the middle class is being crushed.

[Neolithium]

But at some point, there has to be a sense of personally responsibility. And i think you meant to say half-century, not half-decade. The woman in the OP was born after segregation, she grew up with affirmative action and scholarships for blacks to go to college. Regardless of all that, she chose not to use birth control, probably because it "feels better" without a condom, without anymore philosophical reason. And the only explanation she has after the fact is "they were gifts from god". Please, they were gifts from her negligence.

Not 100% on her for that either. Her babies' daddeh's didn't exactly seem to say "HEY! You're not getting on this until it's wrapped..."

[likemyorbs]

Its the state of mind that is perpetuated. If you don't work for what you have you can never fully appreciate anything. I'm all for short time welfare and safety nets, but what are willing to do in return for that help? Its not free and its not the governments money, it came out of someones pocket that is busting their ass to get ahead in a society where the middle class is being crushed.
But then what's to be done when the time limit expires? There are some people who will ALWAYS be a burden on society because they just don't feel like working. I don't think the government is perpetuating that attitude, they're just trying to not let people starve.

----------

Not 100% on her for that either. Her babies' daddeh's didn't exactly seem to say "HEY! You're not getting on this until it's wrapped..."

True, but there are more forms of female birth control than male birth control. She had many more options, not just condoms.

[Mac'nCheese]

Yeah, when will we get to the point where we can discuss a racial issue without be labeled "racist"? You can't keep pretending as if every problem in society is equally spread out among the different races, because that's just not true.

The op putting a "s" on the end of the word children didn't help.

[Neolithium]

True, but there are more forms of female birth control than male birth control. She had many more options, not just condoms.

So? Getting knocked up isn't the only issue. Diaphragms, the pill, IUD's, etc still don't protect from STD's. Basically everyone that was doing the horizontal mambo in that whole setup was a moron. The taxpayers and those kids will suffer. Not like the parents of any of them seem to give a damn.

[renewed]

True, but there are more forms of female birth control than male birth control. She had many more options, not just condoms.

But this is assuming she had the proper education to know the potential consequences from having unprotected or un-brith-controlled (add it to the dictionary!) sex.

I'm not condoning her actions but just because proper education is available doesn't mean that it reaches all ears and that the ears it does reach know how to respond to it.

[likemyorbs]

So? Getting knocked up isn't the only issue.

True, but it is the only issue we're talking about in this situation. What's better, getting pregnant and getting an std or just getting an std? I choose the latter.

----------

But this is assuming she had the proper education to know the potential consequences from having unprotected or un-brith-controlled (add it to the dictionary!) sex.

She should have figured that out the first time she had unprotected sex and a human started growing inside of her. Everyone knows that sex=baby

[renewed]

----------

[/COLOR]
She should have figured that out the first time she had unprotected sex and a human started growing inside of her. Everyone knows that sex=baby

Yeah. Apparently she wanted children. They are her "gifts from God". Consequences exist past giving birth, obviously, and that is what I am focusing on. She obviously cares about her kids she just doesn't realize how her irresponsibility has effected others.

[Mac'nCheese]

Yeah. Apparently she wanted children. They are her "gifts from God". Consequences exist past giving birth, obviously, and that is what I am focusing on. She obviously cares about her kids she just doesn't realize how her irresponsibility has effected others.

I don't think she obviously cares about her kids. If she did, she would have stopped having new ones and concentrated on trying to take care of the ones she already has. And to whomever made the point before about some people not being educated about birth control: that may be true for the first kids but after 3 or 4, you think she would have figured out how this sex thing works.

[Macky-Mac]

I only have reverse and a draw two....

and even worse for you, everybody knows your tell

[Zombie Acorn]

But then what's to be done when the time limit expires? There are some people who will ALWAYS be a burden on society because they just don't feel like working. I don't think the government is perpetuating that attitude, they're just trying to not let people starve.

----------



True, but there are more forms of female birth control than male birth control. She had many more options, not just condoms.

I'd suggest a government back to work program. Once welfare time expires they are.put to work to earn their check. There is a lot of clean up type of jobs the city could put them on. A) work experience b) they realize their job sucks and get a better one.

I'd rather the government subsidize the daycare completely then allow this lazy **** to stay at home and soak in tax dollars.

[leekohler]

As far as homelessness goes, read:

http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_02_13_a_murray.html

We can do better, and pay far less.

[ericrwalker]

The op putting a "s" on the end of the word children didn't help.

The OP wanted to quote her.

[chris200x9]

The more children you have the more money you get from the government, so there is an incentive for those taking aide to have as many children as possible. One cannot have aide diminish per additional child to try to curb this because it would be very unfair to the children that might still be born. If you talk about sterilization it conjures up images of nazis and eugenics. What I am trying to say is this case is very frustrating and infuriating, but guess what? There is nothing you can do about stuff like this without beig labled a "nazi" or people saying you don't care about children, sad but true. DEAL WITH IT!

[CalWizrd]

... Well, first you start reversing the massive transfer of wealth that has occurred in this country over the last 30+ years. Second, you make it unprofitable to ship jobs overseas. Third, you give the government the authority to deny a corporation the right to create subsidiaries, move, or otherwise change structure. Fourth, you put people in charge of the secretary of state offices with the direction to revoke corporate charters. Fifth, you make it a corporate death sentence to donate money to not-for-profits or political campaigns. Sixth, you impose a profit sharing rule requiring a minimum percentage of profits be used for worker wages. Seventh, we put in place real tariffs similar to our competitors. Eighth, remove all limits on unemployment duration. Ninth, put in place healthcare and other basic services so that companies and individuals don't need to worry about that. Tenth, put in place minimum safety net welfare type programs so that even a bum on the corner can eat. Eleventh, massively rework and grow our infrastructure. If China can have a 300mph train, why can't we? ... I support taking the kids if you put the poorest kid with the richest family; the second poorest kid with the second richest family, and so on all the way down the line. Mandatory with rights of inheiratence.

Wow. Now I know whose vote is canceling out mine every election day.

[CorvusCamenarum]

I'd suggest a government back to work program. Once welfare time expires they are.put to work to earn their check. There is a lot of clean up type of jobs the city could put them on. A) work experience b) they realize their job sucks and get a better one.

I'd rather the government subsidize the daycare completely then allow this lazy **** to stay at home and soak in tax dollars.

No reason we couldn't do that now. Only were I king, if you go on the dole, you'd spend half your "work" day doing community service type projects, and the other half doing some form of job/vocational/trade training. I'd even support paying for the training. If you drop out, though, you're on your own.

[iJohnHenry]

DEAL WITH IT!

Well, the Chinese "dealt" with it, but they have the base numbers to do that.

As for "us", the thought of only 2 children per family sends the financial planners in this World all a-tizzy.

Capitalists societies require that the base of the pyramid keep growing, exponentially.

Just look what is happening now, with Baby Boomers living too long. ;)

[ericrwalker]

Epic :D

Wow. Now I know whose vote is canceling out mine every election day.

----------

I would say it only needs the base to grow exponentially because of social programs like medicare and social security.


Capitalists societies require that the base of the pyramid keep growing, exponentially.

Just look what is happening now, with Baby Boomers living too long. ;)

[Grey Beard]

If you talk about sterilization it conjures up images of nazis and eugenics.

I understand there is such a thing as a (female) reversible sterilization. Deal to her procreation in this way, until she sorts her **** out.
KGB

[kavika411]

The op putting a "s" on the end of the word children didn't help.

The OP was quoting. So, why do you comment, "putting an 's' on the end of the word children didn't help." I'm interested. Thanks.

[Mac'nCheese]

The OP was quoting. So, why do you comment, "putting an 's' on the end of the word children didn't help." I'm interested. Thanks.

People were wondering why this turned into a "racist" thing. Putting in the 's' seemed to me as if the op was mocking the way poor black people speak. He could have easily typed the word correctly, used a different quote, etc, but instead needed to point out the way uneducated, poor blacks speak.

[likemyorbs]

People were wondering why this turned into a "racist" thing. Putting in the 's' seemed to me as if the op was mocking the way poor black people speak. He could have easily typed the word correctly, used a different quote, etc, but instead needed to point out the way uneducated, poor blacks speak.

Poor white people often talk funny too, bet you wouldn't have commented on it if he quoted them. You turned it into a racial thing. You racist or something? :rolleyes:

[Mac'nCheese]

Poor white people often talk funny too, bet you wouldn't have commented on it if he quoted them. You turned it into a racial thing. You racist or something? :rolleyes:

Yes I am.

[kavika411]

the way uneducated, poor blacks speak.

I didn't realize uneducated, poor blacks have a different way of speaking. You may want to talk to .Andy about that. He, I believe, would strongly disagree with you (see this thread) that the color of someone's skin makes them different, culturally or otherwise.

[Mac'nCheese]

I didn't realize uneducated, poor blacks have a different way of speaking. You may want to talk to .Andy about that. He, I believe, would strongly disagree with you (see this thread) that the color of someone's skin makes them different, culturally or otherwise.

Its not the color of their skin that makes them speak differently, its the culture they grow up in. Do you really not know that different cultures have different manners of speaking, different slang, different accents. Are you so politically correct that pointing out any difference between different people is wrong?

[likemyorbs]

Are you so politically correct that pointing out any difference between different people is wrong?

Apparently you are since you're the one who started criticizing the OP for quoting the woman.

[Mac'nCheese]

Apparently you are since you're the one who started criticizing the OP for quoting the woman.

Ah, the "I know you are but what am I" defense. Well played.

[likemyorbs]

Ah, the "I know you are but what am I" defense. Well played.

Sucks to be caught in your own political correctness huh?

[kavika411]

Sucks to be caught in your own political correctness huh?

I don't know that we've ever agreed on anything in the PRSI, but.this.is.poetry.

[likemyorbs]

I don't know that we've ever agreed on anything in the PRSI, but.this.is.poetry.

I do my best. :D

[Mac'nCheese]

Sucks to be caught in your own political correctness huh?

Not at all since I never criticized anyone, just pointed out how racism was first introduced into this thread. You, on the other hand, keep avoiding the issue. Sucks to be proved wrong and not big enough to admit it, huh?

[likemyorbs]

The op putting a "s" on the end of the word children didn't help.

People were wondering why this turned into a "racist" thing. Putting in the 's' seemed to me as if the op was mocking the way poor black people speak. He could have easily typed the word correctly, used a different quote, etc, but instead needed to point out the way uneducated, poor blacks speak.

And then....
Its not the color of their skin that makes them speak differently, its the culture they grow up in. Do you really not know that different cultures have different manners of speaking, different slang, different accents. Are you so politically correct that pointing out any difference between different people is wrong?

Not at all since I never criticized anyone, just pointed out how racism was first introduced into this thread. You, on the other hand, keep avoiding the issue. Sucks to be proved wrong and not big enough to admit it, huh?
Wanna try that again?

[Macky-Mac]

I didn't realize uneducated, poor blacks have a different way of speaking...

...Are you so politically correct that pointing out any difference between different people is wrong?

don't you think it's unfair to accuse kavika of being politically correct when he's made it quite clear that he's simply poorly informed :p

[Mac'nCheese]

Wanna try that again?

Like you did by editing your own post in record time. Not sure what you guys are missing. Someone asked how the post turned into a racial issue, I pointed out that it started in the op, someone called be racist for daring to suggest that people of different cultures speak differently and its too pc to suggest otherwise....What are you confused about?

[ericrwalker]

I didn't bring race in here. There are cases like this in white trailer trash families as well. Don't put words in my mouth when you were the one who made this a race issue.

Like you did by editing your own post in record time. Not sure what you guys are missing. Someone asked how the post turned into a racial issue, I pointed out that it started in the op, someone called be racist for daring to suggest that people of different cultures speak differently and its too pc to suggest otherwise....What are you confused about?

[likemyorbs]

Like you did by editing your own post in record time. Not sure what you guys are missing. Someone asked how the post turned into a racial issue, I pointed out that it started in the op, someone called be racist for daring to suggest that people of different cultures speak differently and its too pc to suggest otherwise....What are you confused about?

What did i edit? I just added another quote. What's your point? You pointed out that people of different races speak differently (some might consider that racist, but we'll let it slide), but then you also criticized the OP for pointing it out in the thread title. So you basically contradicted yourself. What are YOU confused about?

And dammit stop up voting your own posts, it's like putting the first dollar in a tip jar.

[Mac'nCheese]

Let's not pretend like this isn't more common in the black community. Racist comments are not right, but blatantly ignoring the problem in the black community and saying "this could be someone of any race" is counterproductive.

Those blacks.

Yeah, when will we get to the point where we can discuss a racial issue without be labeled "racist"? You can't keep pretending as if every problem in society is equally spread out among the different races, because that's just not true.

If you can please post evidence that being black is causative of "societal problems" which cannot be attributed to confounders like poverty or education level.

If you are unable to do so perhaps you can rethink your claims about "blacks". Being "black" is not the problem despite you zeroing in on it as an issue.

Did i say being black is the problem? There you go putting words in my mouth, and subtly trying to label me racist. This is exactly the problem i was talking about. It's not their skin color or their genetics that are the problem. It's a problem within their community and their culture. Yes, poverty and education levels in their community are a huge problem. But i don't believe those problems come from the racist white man because he won't hire them or let them into school. I think they create the problem for themselves.

I didn't bring race in here. There are cases like this in white trailer trash families as well. Don't put words in my mouth when you were the one who made this a race issue.

Really? Those posts and half a dozen more made before my first post. You should read your own thread before posting such nonsense.

----------

What did i edit? I just added another quote. What's your point? You pointed out that people of different races speak differently (some might consider that racist, but we'll let it slide), but then you also criticized the OP for pointing it out in the thread title. So you basically contradicted yourself. What are YOU confused about?

And dammit stop up voting your own posts, it's like putting the first dollar in a tip jar.

You took out "Care to tell me how i'm wrong?" Its not racist to point out that different cultures speak differently. Its out and out ridiculous to say other wise. And one more time, I never, once criticized the op. I pointed out what he did. That is not a judgement.

[ericrwalker]

Oh Mac you must be reading between the lines(and adding what you want there)

[Mac'nCheese]

Oh Mac you must be reading between the lines(and adding what you want there)

Talk about not being able to admit when you are wrong. You accuse me of bringing race into this thread when there are dozens of post about race before my first post. Some one wrote THOSE BLACKS. That's not reading between the lines.

[ericrwalker]

That would be Andy. You accused me. (the OP).

Talk about not being able to admit when you are wrong. You accuse me of bringing race into this thread when there are dozens of post about race before my first post. Some one wrote THOSE BLACKS. That's not reading between the lines.

[torbjoern]

I'm a bit puzzled that some people seem to believe in evolution yet at the same time claim that all races are 100% equal (except for a few external features such as skin colour). You want to learn about racism? If you're white, tell an African-American guy that you want to marry his sister/daughter (whatever is more applicable). Then you will see what real racism is about.

[Mac'nCheese]

That would be Andy. You accused me. (the OP).

My god, what are you missing? You accused me of bringing race into this. When I posted all the people who did so before me, you said I read between the lines. I was just showing you were wrong to say I brought up race.

[ericrwalker]

I am not missing anything. You said by my spelling of "childrens" I was bringing in race. That's my only gripe.

My god, what are you missing? You accused me of bringing race into this. When I posted all the people who did so before me, you said I read between the lines. I was just showing you were wrong to say I brought up race.

[Mac'nCheese]

i am not missing anything. You said by my spelling of "childrens" i was bringing in race. That's my only gripe.

ok....

[likemyorbs]

This is the dumbest argument ever. This thread IS about race, whether we want to admit it or not. So let's all stop dancing around it and quit the politically correct BS.

[Mac'nCheese]

This is the dumbest argument ever. This thread IS about race, whether we want to admit it or not. So let's all stop dancing around it and quit the politically correct BS.

I don't think its the dumbest. You obviously are not married.....but I COMPLETELY AGREE!!!! Of course its about race. Let me ask everyone a question and be honest for christ's sake: how come when black people rally and march for help for their community, when their leaders talk about needing extra help in their communities to catch up to white communities, etc etc, that's perfectly fine....but when white people dare to say, hey, this problem is a black problem....BAM! they are racists? Sure there are white people who abuse the system and sit around and have baby after bay while on the dole, but can anyone really deny more black people are poorer then white people, tend to live in worse communities, have sub-par education, etc?

[likemyorbs]

I don't think its the dumbest. You obviously are not married.....but I COMPLETELY AGREE!!!! Of course its about race. Let me ask everyone a question and be honest for christ's sake: how come when black people rally and march for help for their community, when their leaders talk about needing extra help in their communities to catch up to white communities, etc etc, that's perfectly fine....but when white people dare to say, hey, this problem is a black problem....BAM! they are racists? Sure there are white people who abuse the system and sit around and have baby after bay while on the dole, but can anyone really deny more black people are poorer then white people, tend to live in worse communities, have sub-par education, etc?

Couldn't have said it better myself. Actually, i said almost exactly that at the beginning of the thread. But then .Andy automatically started accusing me of racism when i said it.

[Mac'nCheese]

Couldn't have said it better myself, actually, i said almost exactly that at the beginning of the thread. But then .Andy automatically started accusing me of racism when i said it at the beginning of the thread.

I think a lot of us who have been arguing actually agree but got caught up in semantics. But hey, its a serious issue and we all care about the childrens involved.

[likemyorbs]

I think a lot of us who have been arguing actually agree but got caught up in semantics. But hey, its a serious issue and we all care about the childrens involved.

Yeah, that tends to happen often on forums, that's the problem with the internet. And yeah, it's a VERY serious issue, and it IS a black issue. They have some serious problems in their communities that must be addressed. If those issues are not addressed, those 15 kids will end up repeating the same cycle. However, the issues can't be addressed if people refuse to talk about them out of fear of being accused of racism by Al Sharpton....and .Andy.

[Mac'nCheese]

Yeah, that tends to happen often on forums, that's the problem with the internet. And yeah, it's a VERY serious issue, and it IS a black issue. They have some serious problems in their communities that must be addressed. If those issues are not addressed, those 15 kids will end up repeating the same cycle. However, the issues can't be addressed if people refuse to talk about them out of fear of being accused of racism by Al Sharpton.

http://youtu.be/wOWcFHnYfuo

[likemyorbs]

http://youtu.be/wOWcFHnYfuo

msnbc should be ashamed of themselves for hiring him. he acts like he's the spokesman for an entire race, and all he does is stir s*** up and looks for racism where it doesn't exist. I think he's the biggest racist of them all. He doesn't care about the best interests of black people, he cares about his own best interests. Pig.

[Mac'nCheese]

msnbc should be ashamed of themselves for hiring him. he acts like he's the spokesman for an entire race, and all he does is stir s*** up and looks for racism where it doesn't exist. I think he's the biggest racist of them all.

Here's my problem with him on MSNBC. Forget all the stuff you just wrote (which is true), he is simply horrible. He stumbles, and misreads the prompter and then screams for no reason. He cuts off his guests more then anyone I have ever seen (which is a lot, since they all do it). He is completely close-minded to anyone else point of view. He is, simply, terrible at his job. I should have posted this one, its a classic:

http://youtu.be/2CifYWxJXaI

[likemyorbs]

Here's my problem with him on MSNBC. Forget all the stuff you just wrote (which is true), he is simply horrible. He stumbles, and misreads the prompter and then screams for no reason. He cuts off his guests more then anyone I have ever seen (which is a lot, since they all do it). He is completely close-minded to anyone else point of view. He is, simply, terrible at his job. I should have posted this one, its a classic:

http://youtu.be/2CifYWxJXaI

LOL. Yeah, msnbc really should have thought twice about that hasty decision. He's hurting their image. That's like fox news giving Ann Coulter her own show (and i wouldn't put it past them).

[Iscariot]

we all care about the childrens involved.

I care very deeply about Dr. Joe and Ruth Martin, David Hayward, and the shocking return of Adam Chandler.

[Mac'nCheese]

I care very deeply about Dr. Joe and Ruth Martin, David Hayward, and the shocking return of Adam Chandler.

Are those all your children?

Anyway, maybe tomorrow this thread will be back on track. Thanks for making the last few hours of my dreary overtime shift fly. Gonna go home and try to bang my babies' mama.

[CorvusCamenarum]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Actually, i said almost exactly that at the beginning of the thread. But then .Andy automatically started accusing me of racism when i said it.

Here's how it works:

It's not racist to notice it.
It is racist to point it out.

[hulugu]

...how come when black people rally and march for help for their community, when their leaders talk about needing extra help in their communities to catch up to white communities, etc etc, that's perfectly fine....but when white people dare to say, hey, this problem is a black problem....BAM! they are racists?..

Well, because you run the risk of arguing (or at least appearing to) that the problem is because of race rather than poverty, education, and the after-image of generations of poor treatment.
There's some double-standards here, of course, because blacks (and latinos) are allowed to criticize their neighborhoods in language that whites cannot. However, I think framing the issue in racial terms has always been a problem. In poor neighborhoods, there are poor whites, poor asians, poor blacks, and poor latinos. And, all of them live within communities that are poorly served by the larger society: bad schools, lack of infrastructure, fewer parks or recreation areas, no grocery stores, etc.

Sure there are white people who abuse the system and sit around and have baby after bay while on the dole, but can anyone really deny more black people are poorer then white people, tend to live in worse communities, have sub-par education, etc?

On average, yes, but you can't really argue that the kind of backbreaking poverty in Kentucky isn't in some way related to the shattered neighborhoods of Detroit. The cities and cultures are different, but people who can't get ahead rarely raise children who can, so cycles continue.

No reason we couldn't do that now. Only were I king, if you go on the dole, you'd spend half your "work" day doing community service type projects, and the other half doing some form of job/vocational/trade training. I'd even support paying for the training. If you drop out, though, you're on your own.

The current structure of welfare seems devoted to punishing people for being on welfare rather than bootstrapping them out. Give people choices to work on community projects or take job training, work on developing skills (even the most rudimentary), etc. Make sure there's support for childcare and basic health services and you break down the reasons people don't go back to work.

More jobs would help too.

[iJohnHenry]

"No, a quote is a quote. What kind of a quote? It's a quote. A quote is a quote, and when you have a good quote, it's because it's (a) quote." - Jean Chretien :D

She could sell a few, just to get by. She has plenty, no need to be a hog.

<Slavery rant line forms here.>

START

[mkrishnan]

The current structure of welfare seems devoted to punishing people for being on welfare rather than bootstrapping them out. Give people choices to work on community projects or take job training, work on developing skills (even the most rudimentary), etc. Make sure there's support for childcare and basic health services and you break down the reasons people don't go back to work.

For better or worse a disability check too is sometimes a barrier to returning to the work force -- but I agree, you have to create an environment where the barriers are reduced to being able to work as much as possible.

As far as creating jobs, I think that's the million dollar question -- if there were a magical tool to create sustainable job growth, I think that high unemployment is the single biggest barrier to people being in the workforce, whether they qualify for disability or not. What I mean isn't that everyone who receives SSI/SSD would work if the unemployment rate were 2 or 3%, but that many would work, as long as they had an opportunity for a job that clearly gave them more than SSI/SSD does.

[CorvusCamenarum]

Well, because you run the risk of arguing (or at least appearing to) that the problem is because of race rather than poverty, education, and the after-image of generations of poor treatment.
There's some double-standards here, of course, because blacks (and latinos) are allowed to criticize their neighborhoods in language that whites cannot. However, I think framing the issue in racial terms has always been a problem. In poor neighborhoods, there are poor whites, poor asians, poor blacks, and poor latinos. And, all of them live within communities that are poorly served by the larger society: bad schools, lack of infrastructure, fewer parks or recreation areas, no grocery stores, etc.
If that's the case, then how do we explain things like the education gap, and that everything we've done and the umpteen billions of dollars we've thrown at it has done exactly squat?

On average, yes, but you can't really argue that the kind of backbreaking poverty in Kentucky isn't in some way related to the shattered neighborhoods of Detroit. The cities and cultures are different, but people who can't get ahead rarely raise children who can, so cycles continue.
Sounds like you're willing at entertain the notion that heritability does play a part.

The current structure of welfare seems devoted to punishing people for being on welfare rather than bootstrapping them out. Give people choices to work on community projects or take job training, work on developing skills (even the most rudimentary), etc. Make sure there's support for childcare and basic health services and you break down the reasons people don't go back to work.

More jobs would help too.
So does wanting to get off the dole. The problem is that we teach that putting your hand out is preferable to putting your nose to the grindstone.

[hulugu]

If that's the case, then how do we explain things like the education gap, and that everything we've done and the umpteen billions of dollars we've thrown at it has done exactly squat?

Well, just because we've spent billions on education doesn't mean we've addressed the harder and more complex problems that face poor neighborhoods. Building a few new schools and running an education program for a few years isn't enough to deal with what's essentially a generational issue.

Sounds like you're willing at entertain the notion that heritability does play a part.

Well, I fall on the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture argument. I think if you took Bill Gates and in some pocket universe put him in a home with crushing poverty in a neighborhood were school was a joke and everyone survived by theft or by welfare, I'm not so sure that he would have come out of our universe's Hell's Kitchen to found Microsoft. Certainly, some extraordinary people do, but a lot more fail.

Meanwhile, if you took your meanest gang-banger and raised him up in a middle-class Seattle neighborhood, you would probably end up with a better person, but not necessarily Bill Gates.

Heritability plays a part, but I think many give it far too much weight.

So does wanting to get off the dole. The problem is that we teach that putting your hand out is preferable to putting your nose to the grindstone.

I'm not sure that lesson is taught as a societal goal. This culture seems conflicted about work, but the larger US culture has never really celebrated handouts. Dumb luck and legacy, sure, but handouts are looked down on.

[mcrain]

It's not that they are black.
It's not that they have a different culture.

The problem is that they have very little money, very little opportunity, and are in a situation where they live separate from those with money and opportunity. That was something created by those with money, and those who feared people who looked different. It's a long term problem that has many symptoms and no simple solutions.

Half a century ago, there were vibrant successful African-American communities. There were businesses and opportunities within the community for success, power and wealth. Harlem back in the day was a far cry from its reputation today.

Times have changed. Today, a massive number of young black men are being put into jail. Many of the crimes they are being arrested for are due either to drug use/possession or crimes related to poverty (theft, burglary, etc.) It's clear that our drug enforcement laws were tailored to target minorities. Crack v. cocaine. Marijuana. Heroin. Drugs that were commonplace in white society became illegal, and are now disproportionately used to imprison minorities.

Is drug use down among whites? If you include prescription drugs, I really doubt it. Watch any of the Desperate Housewives, those women are always loaded!

I believe that if there were jobs and opportunities and a real chance for success, the issues discussed would drop dramatically. Easiest way to fix that is a magic trick. It's called reasonable tariffs. For reasons that only benefitted multi-national corporations, our government decided to reduce our tariffs to ridiculously low levels. Far, far lower than anyone we compete with. Speaking of which, we are competing with China, a country that doesn't "play by our rules."

The reason we don't fix the problem is because billionaires make massive amounts of money paying next to nothing to some 14 year old chinese kid instead of making their products here.

[ericrwalker]

This is also the reason why we can afford so much crap these days. Products are so cheap now because some 14 year old Chinese kid is making my iPhone. Imagine if it was made by union workers here in the USA. It would probably cost 3 times the amount.


The reason we don't fix the problem is because billionaires make massive amounts of money paying next to nothing to some 14 year old chinese kid instead of making their products here.

[Gelfin]

This is also the reason why we can afford so much crap these days. Products are so cheap now because some 14 year old Chinese kid is making my iPhone. Imagine if it was made by union workers here in the USA. It would probably cost 3 times the amount.

Maybe not. Workers in China are pushing back, and the price of shipping things across an ocean has gone way up. The cost gap in manufacturing is smaller than you'd think for many items. The idea that an American manufacturer can't compete is approaching the status of "conventional wisdom" that some ambitious and innovative soul needs to challenge, probably by producing much higher quality for only a nominal premium.

[mcrain]

This is also the reason why we can afford so much crap these days. Products are so cheap now because some 14 year old Chinese kid is making my iPhone. Imagine if it was made by union workers here in the USA. It would probably cost 3 times the amount.

It may cost more, but more people would be able to afford more stuff. In addition, the buying power of the dollar would be different. Keep in mind however, that if the tariffs were reasonable (like they used to be), it would be less profitable to build overseas, and manufacturing would shift back here. The price of a plastic widget made by a union worker vs. a 14 year old Chinese kid aren't much different. Those costs are spread out on a per unit basis, as are all the other expenses. The bigger question is not will you still be able to afford your iPhone, but will the company make as much profit selling it to you?

Right now, they are making money hand over fist. They would still be profitable here. They were profitable before they left, they would be again. There is just such an incentive to move overseas right now due to ridiculous tariff and trade policies enacted over the last 30+ years.

(edit) Current average tariff is 1.3%. Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs_in_United_States_history)

1980s to presentThe GOP under Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush abandoned the protectionist ideology, and came out against quotas and in favor of the GATT/WTO policy of minimal economic barriers to global trade. Free trade with Canada came about as a result of the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement of 1987, which led in 1994 to the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). It was based on President George H. W. Bush's plan to enlarge the scope of the market for American firms to include Canada and Mexico. US President Bill Clinton, with strong Republican support, pushed NAFTA through Congress over the vehement objection of labor unions.

Likewise, in 2000 Clinton worked with Republicans to give China entry into WTO and "most favored nation" trading status (i.e., low tariffs). NAFTA and WTO advocates promoted an optimistic vision of the future, with prosperity to be based on intellectuals skills and managerial know-how more than on routine hand labor. They promised that free trade meant lower prices for consumers. Opposition to liberalized trade came increasingly from labor unions, who argued that this system also meant lower wages and fewer jobs for American workers who could not compete against wages of less than a dollar an hour. The shrinking size and diminished political clout of these unions repeatedly left them on the losing side. Ibid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs_in_United_States_history)

[iJohnHenry]

It would probably cost 3 times the amount.

Only that?? :eek:

What AAPL charges for their products seems to have little to do with their actual unit costs.

Maybe not.

Oh boy. :rolleyes:

[skunk]

It's absolutely a cultural issue but when you dig deeper to find the causation of such an issue it isn't so black and white (aha!).

Speaking about African Americans (USA blacks) you have an entire culture that was left behind for many years. They were slaves while whites were progressing. They weren't allowed the same education, jobs, benefits, rights etc as the rest of the country a little over a half-century ago.

You can't think that a whole culture that was pretty much cutoff from society is going to reform and "fit in" to the rest of society overnight. There is generations of learned behavior that will take time to overcome.

I don't think the cause is because they are "black" but more so because (and .Andy forgive me if I misread you) like .Andy said education and poverty and what I added about being generationally cut off from society.Excellent post.