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josh1231
Dec 10, 2011, 11:02 PM
I just formatted my drive and installed Snow Leopard.

Having always been a person who has to have the latest gadget/computer/software, I purchased OS X Lion the day it came out. What a mistake. A few of my least favorite features.

Though I googled several different articles about disabling the opening of documents and apps during a reboot, I never could get it to completely stop opening them. It would still have the check box that I would inevitably forget to check upon rebooting that would then cause a 10-minute delay (not really but it seemed like it) when booting up while acrobat/photoshop/indesign/word/excel/outlook started. I don't get this feature. If I want a program to start, I can pretty easily click it on the dock and start it.

The one I really enjoyed was the software update a few weeks ago that disabled my HP Color Laser printer, and made it impossible to print to it even with the generic PCL 5 driver. It simply stopped working. This wasn't on the lion install, it worked for 3 months after installing lion, it just stopped one day after an update. No mind you this printer was just released in May 2010.

My Canon printer also doesn't work any longer. This was released 3 years ago, so it is not that new, however the canon download from apple states that it will work. When installing the printer though, I point to the newest downloaded driver, both from canon and the apple web site, and get an error when the OS attempts to download its own driver.

I feel better now as I write this from my fresh Snow Leopard install.



Amazing Iceman
Dec 10, 2011, 11:18 PM
Did you install Lion from scratch or was it an update?

I have no major problems with it.

And sooner or later you will have to update to Lion, so why wait? Better to get used to it now.

Sometimes after you update you'll need to reset the PRAM too.

josh1231
Dec 10, 2011, 11:38 PM
I bought it from the App Store, so it was an upgrade. It wasn't so much a problem getting used to it, it was just a problem of it not operating correctly. I was able to live with Apple reversing the scroll direction of my mouse instead of simply allowing me to choose scroll direction... (please let me know if anything I'm complaining about has an easy fix, I'm not an OS 10 Expert by any means).

I might have to break down and buy a disk and do a fresh install, unless someone knows of a way to do it without the disk. I have been rather disappointed with it, however, both at work and at my home. My work computer crashes on a pretty regular occasion, and I haven't installed a piece of software on it since installing Lion.

Who knows, maybe a fresh install is what I need. If anyone can let me know if a fresh install is possible through the App store, I would appreciate it.

Did you install Lion from scratch or was it an update?

I have no major problems with it.

And sooner or later you will have to update to Lion, so why wait? Better to get used to it now.

Sometimes after you update you'll need to reset the PRAM too.

----------

Did you install Lion from scratch or was it an update?

I have no major problems with it.

And sooner or later you will have to update to Lion, so why wait? Better to get used to it now.

Sometimes after you update you'll need to reset the PRAM too.

btw, what is updating pram? Never heard of that before.

blueroom
Dec 10, 2011, 11:43 PM
Easy to turn off inverse scrolling (under the mouse preferences) I turned it off as I never got used to it.

You can boot (Hold down Option) to get to the recovery partition, or simply create your own boot image.
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4848

josh1231
Dec 10, 2011, 11:57 PM
It appears I need to spend less time complaining, and more time googling answers to my problems.

Easy to turn off inverse scrolling (under the mouse preferences) I turned it off as I never got used to it.

You can boot (Hold down Option) to get to the recovery partition, or simply create your own boot image.
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4848

iDuel
Dec 11, 2011, 12:11 AM
Everything you mentioned can either be easily fixed or changed in System Preferences.

josh1231
Dec 11, 2011, 12:19 AM
Everything you mentioned can either be easily fixed or changed in System Preferences.

The fact that my Color Laser printer does not work, unfortunately cannot be easily fixed. I did actually put some time into researching this. That being said, I did sell that printer because it did not work, so I no longer have it.

Lion still is significantly less stable than Snow Leopard, however having just done a fresh install, I'm going to download it again and see if I have better luck this time.

MisterMe
Dec 11, 2011, 12:35 AM
I just formatted my drive and installed Snow Leopard.

...Did you have a reason to reformat your hard drive?

The one I really enjoyed was the software update a few weeks ago that disabled my HP Color Laser printer, and made it impossible to print to it even with the generic PCL 5 driver. ...Which HP Color Laser printer?

josh1231
Dec 11, 2011, 01:10 AM
Did you have a reason to reformat your hard drive?
After resetting my printing system among other attempted fixes, my Canon MP620 still would not install. Being that it worked fine prior to the printing update that was installed ~ a month ago as well as Apple's documentation stating it did work with Lion, I felt the easiest course of action was a format.


Which HP Color Laser printer?

The 1525NW

iThinkergoiMac
Dec 11, 2011, 07:07 AM
Did you have a reason to reformat your hard drive?

That's one of two ways to install an older version of OS X overtop a newer one. You can either Archive and Install, or Erase and Install. The latter option reformats the drive/partition.

MisterMe
Dec 11, 2011, 09:32 AM
That's one of two ways to install an older version of OS X overtop a newer one. You can either Archive and Install, or Erase and Install. The latter option reformats the drive/partition.That's just it. Reformatting is the more radical of the two options. It erases all of your applications and all of your data. If you are not a working person and don't have a lot of data and applications, then I suppose that you have the time to do the job. But if you are a working person who relies on your Mac, then restoring your applications and data from back-up or original distribution [if you have them] will put you in for a bag of hurt.

iThinkergoiMac
Dec 11, 2011, 09:44 PM
That's just it. Reformatting is the more radical of the two options.

It's also faster, and doesn't matter if you have a good backup system.

At pretty much any given moment I wouldn't really hesitate to reformat my internal drive if I thought it needed it. I have a nightly clone going, so I'd be set back, at most, 24 hours.

thejadedmonkey
Dec 11, 2011, 09:50 PM
Did you install Lion from scratch or was it an update?

I have no major problems with it.

And sooner or later you will have to update to Lion, so why wait? Better to get used to it now.

Sometimes after you update you'll need to reset the PRAM too.

...or he could just switch to Windows 7 ;)

MrNomNoms
Dec 11, 2011, 10:09 PM
I bought it from the App Store, so it was an upgrade. It wasn't so much a problem getting used to it, it was just a problem of it not operating correctly. I was able to live with Apple reversing the scroll direction of my mouse instead of simply allowing me to choose scroll direction... (please let me know if anything I'm complaining about has an easy fix, I'm not an OS 10 Expert by any means).

I might have to break down and buy a disk and do a fresh install, unless someone knows of a way to do it without the disk. I have been rather disappointed with it, however, both at work and at my home. My work computer crashes on a pretty regular occasion, and I haven't installed a piece of software on it since installing Lion.

Who knows, maybe a fresh install is what I need. If anyone can let me know if a fresh install is possible through the App store, I would appreciate it.

How to do a fresh install of Lion has been covered many times:

http://mashable.com/2011/07/20/lion-clean-install-guide/

Download, copy the dmg out of the installer, grab a 8GB thumb drive, make sure that the 8GB is formatted using HFS+ Journalled, restore the DMG to the thumb drive and then boot off it by holding down the option key during reboot and select your thumb drive. Again, this issue has been covered many times.

Quite frankly Apple promoting an upgrade is probably the stupidest idea they've had so far - the pain and grief caused by upgrades far outweighs the few extra minutes spent backing up your documents, formatting with a clean install then restoring everything back again.

josh1231
Dec 11, 2011, 11:38 PM
That's just it. Reformatting is the more radical of the two options. It erases all of your applications and all of your data. If you are not a working person and don't have a lot of data and applications, then I suppose that you have the time to do the job. But if you are a working person who relies on your Mac, then restoring your applications and data from back-up or original distribution [if you have them] will put you in for a bag of hurt.

I guess I used Windows Vista too long, because I don't consider a format that radical of a move. The only part I dislike about it is the 200GB backup of my documents, and reinstalling all of my applications. It's really a pretty easy process, though all told did take about 6.5 hours, an hour of which I was actually at the machine, 3 to backup, .5 to install Snow Leopard, .5 to download Lion, .5 to install Lion, 1 to re-install all of my applications and 1 to download and install the 2GB worth of updates (I was really regretting my decision to downgrade my internet from 25/25 to 8/8 at 3:00 in the morning). It was a pain, however my printer now works fine even after doing all the updates, and the machine runs so much better.

Actually the whole process was very Windows Vista'esque, complete with the 2GB OS update.

For the person who said I could switch to Windows 7, I do use Windows 7 a lot and do prefer it easily over Lion because it doesn't crash nearly as much as Lion does, at least in my experience. Hopefully my new experience with Lion will go much better. I'm so happy with how much better it is running at home, that tomorrow I am going to do my iMac at work.

jameslmoser
Dec 13, 2011, 12:06 AM
And sooner or later you will have to update to Lion, so why wait? Better to get used to it now.



Why do so many of you think this? No we won't have too. We can skip lion all together... And if apple doesn't get there crap together by 10.8 (or 11.0...) we can use a different OS all together. lion is a joke... An iOS themed sales pitch for their notebooks. If people don't like it, then we wont use it. And based on the growth rate... that's quite a few people. Especially considering apple forces you to run it on new hardware.

Dsync
Dec 13, 2011, 12:28 AM
Why do so many of you think this? No we won't have too. We can skip lion all together... And if apple doesn't get there crap together by 10.8 (or 11.0...) we can use a different OS all together. lion is a joke... An iOS themed sales pitch for their notebooks. If people don't like it, then we wont use it. And based on the growth rate... that's quite a few people. Especially considering apple forces you to run it on new hardware.

Agreed. Couldn't have said it better myself. I love apple, but as a professional, I don't care for the choices they have made regarding the direction of Mac OS.

Mackilroy
Dec 13, 2011, 11:05 AM
Why do so many of you think this? No we won't have too. We can skip lion all together... And if apple doesn't get there crap together by 10.8 (or 11.0...) we can use a different OS all together. lion is a joke... An iOS themed sales pitch for their notebooks. If people don't like it, then we wont use it. And based on the growth rate... that's quite a few people. Especially considering apple forces you to run it on new hardware.
Are you willing to make the investment in software and hardware simply to run a different OS? Do you know if Windows 8 (or future versions) won't frustrate or annoy you as much as Lion does? Do you really think that Lion is an iOS sales pitch? If so, that's a foolish idea. Lion may have a few elements borrowed from iOS, but they're ones that you do not HAVE to use if you don't want to. For some people they're useful, and for the ones who hate them, they're out of the way.

Oh, I'll also note Snow Leopard got a huge amount of hate after it was released, too. Just in case some of you are thinking of saying, "But Snow Leopard was NEVER this bad!"

Joos24
Dec 13, 2011, 02:21 PM
Oh, I'll also note Snow Leopard got a huge amount of hate after it was released, too. Just in case some of you are thinking of saying, "But Snow Leopard was NEVER this bad!"

Here here! When Snow Leopard came out it got MUCHO bad press. I just love how people here hate Mission Control and have a short memory of Snow Leopard's big problems and then pretend like it's the end-all OS. Snow Leopard's Expose was changed from Leopard and many people hated Snow Leopard's version and complained so badly about it that I actually though Apple was going to change it back out of pressure.
Snow Leopard also had massive install issues. Most people couldn't even get it installed. It wasn't until 10.6.3 before people calmed down with all the Snow Leopard complaints.
Lion is a very stable OS and it is much more stable than Snow Leopard was when it first arrived.

klaxamazoo
Dec 13, 2011, 03:05 PM
Are you willing to make the investment in software and hardware simply to run a different OS? Do you know if Windows 8 (or future versions) won't frustrate or annoy you as much as Lion does? Do you really think that Lion is an iOS sales pitch? If so, that's a foolish idea. Lion may have a few elements borrowed from iOS, but they're ones that you do not HAVE to use if you don't want to. For some people they're useful, and for the ones who hate them, they're out of the way.

Oh, I'll also note Snow Leopard got a huge amount of hate after it was released, too. Just in case some of you are thinking of saying, "But Snow Leopard was NEVER this bad!"

I switched from Windows to Mac because of Windows' poor UI. There is no reason I can't switch again in the future. This is a likely scenario if OSX continues to decline in usability and an alternative OS provides a superior experience.

OSX's decline is even more likely given the fact that Steve Jobs was probably the primary "NO" person at Apple and had strict standards for simplicity and usability. For example, would iOS centered around a touch screen without Steve's instance on a one button phone and no keyboard? I don't see anyone at Apple that loves UI the way that Steve did. The closest similarity is Jon Ives, and his focus is on hardware.

Those of us rallying against Lion tend to have specific UI expectations that used to be met but appear lacking in Lion, which was not under the full scrutiny Steve's watchful eye. Thus, Lion serves as evidence for a painful decline in the UI experience of OSX. Hopefully, someone at Apple will step up to the plate, but if not, well, we switch to something else when it presents itself.

fisherking
Dec 13, 2011, 03:56 PM
these threads are at least worth a laugh. i mean, why go back to snow leopard? why not 10.3? 10.2?? os9??

there are things i do not like in lion, but...there's enough TO like.

working great here (both late 2008 macbook, new macbook pro).
stable, fast. and there are some hacks to trick things out
(like killing the ugly in ical).

sure there's room for improvement, so will wait for 10.7.3, 10.7.4, etc.
either way, the world moves forward, and we can choose to move with it..
or be left behind.

scottsjack
Dec 13, 2011, 05:15 PM
Here here! When Snow Leopard came out it got MUCHO bad press.

Even though Snow leopard is easier to use, works more like a real desktop OS and definitely looks better than Lion the fact is that Apple's new software releases are often buggy. Considering how few hardware combinations Apple has to write for the fact that they release beta quality software just baffles me to no end.

The poor quality of the initial Snow Leopard release definitely caused some problems. Lion's bad press seems to come from a double punch of buggy release and just plain stupid OS design decisions some which seem to be designed more for kids than adults.

Also note that despite being available in public beta for Aperture 3 was especially crappy causing lost libraries and really lousy performance. Let's be honest here. As much as I like Macs it is a fact that Apple's software engineering is really sloppy. "It just works" is not a motto that can be applied to Snow Leopard, Lion or Aperture 3 at release. Even Microsoft's products often work better at release.

klaxamazoo
Dec 13, 2011, 05:59 PM
these threads are at least worth a laugh. i mean, why go back to snow leopard? why not 10.3? 10.2?? os9??


Simple

1) You can't. Apple does not release drivers for new hardware. If I could put Snow Leopard on my Macbook Air I would.

2) Normally Apple improves the experience. i.e. OS9 < 10.2 < 10.3 < 10.4 < 10.5 ≈ 10.6 > 10.7
10.7 is the first time there has been a major decrease in UI quality. Most of the other releases were merely buggy until the .3 release or so. The problems with Lion are not bugs; they are symptoms of a poor design philosophy.

marc11
Dec 13, 2011, 06:15 PM
I disagree I find the new ui to be great and the use of gestures to be very fluid once you adapt. UI is perhaps a matter of opinion and not fact.

klaxamazoo
Dec 13, 2011, 06:40 PM
I disagree I find the new ui to be great and the use of gestures to be very fluid once you adapt. UI is perhaps a matter of opinion and not fact.

It is a matter of opinion.

Some like it, some don't.
Just like some people approve of the new iCal desk calendar skin while I find it tasteless.

dba415
Dec 13, 2011, 06:52 PM
Welcome back

Mackilroy
Dec 13, 2011, 07:02 PM
Even though Snow leopard is easier to use, works more like a real desktop OS and definitely looks better than Lion the fact is that Apple's new software releases are often buggy. Considering how few hardware combinations Apple has to write for the fact that they release beta quality software just baffles me to no end.
Easier to use? Lion is just as easy to use as Snow Leopard. If you don't like the changes, by and large you don't have to use them.

The poor quality of the initial Snow Leopard release definitely caused some problems. Lion's bad press seems to come from a double punch of buggy release and just plain stupid OS design decisions some which seem to be designed more for kids than adults.
Yes, clearly it's for adults if it's designed to be inaccessible and hard to use. Making things easier to use for the general public is a no-no and means it's for kids. Don't be so pretentious.

There will always be people who have legitimate problems with Lion. But opinion doesn't equal actual problems. I happen to like Lion's UI changes for the most part – I'm not sold on iCal, but I don't use it anyway.

Steve's Barber
Dec 13, 2011, 07:03 PM
I thought Lion screamed on an SSD but soon realized how inefficient and sluggish it is once I went back to SL.

And for the Lion naysayers... I pretty much found a way to "undo" just about all the new features with the exception of Mission Control. That alone was what prompted me to go back to Expose/Spaces in SL.

squeakr
Dec 13, 2011, 07:47 PM
I was in the same camp about contemplating moving back to SL specifically for Expose/ Spaces, but then started really using a second screen and found that is where for me Lion shines when compared to SL. I love the fact that when I open my work VM and place it on the secondary desktop, it stays there no matter which desktop I am on on the main desktop. That was one major complaint for me with spaces is that when I switched desktops I lost my VM, as it stayed on the desktop I just switched from. If I could merge spaces and the open desktop docking system of Lion it would be super joy for me. I have found Lion has been more productive for me once I abandoned the SL way of thinking.

benthewraith
Dec 13, 2011, 08:43 PM
but then started really using a second screen and found that is where for me Lion shines when compared to SL.

So Lion shines compared to SL when working with a second screen? Funny, that hasn't been my experience with it.

Steve's Barber
Dec 13, 2011, 09:55 PM
I love the fact that when I open my work VM and place it on the secondary desktop, it stays there no matter which desktop I am on on the main desktop. So basically, the quirks of one app made you stay with Lion... that's fine. But many of us that went back to SL can say the same thing... Mission Control just handled things "wrong" for us.

Joos24
Dec 13, 2011, 10:11 PM
So basically, the quirks of one app made you stay with Lion... that's fine. But many of us that went back to SL can say the same thing... Mission Control just handled things "wrong" for us.

Uh, correction, just few of you really. Re-check that awesome pole you created that shows that the MOST of us here like Lion. We don't need to use an aging OS such as Snow Leopard to get work done. :D

miata
Dec 13, 2011, 11:44 PM
Simple

1) You can't. Apple does not release drivers for new hardware. If I could put Snow Leopard on my Macbook Air I would.

2) Normally Apple improves the experience. i.e. OS9 < 10.2 < 10.3 < 10.4 < 10.5 ≈ 10.6 > 10.7
10.7 is the first time there has been a major decrease in UI quality. Most of the other releases were merely buggy until the .3 release or so. The problems with Lion are not bugs; they are symptoms of a poor design philosophy.
Well put.

10.6 was the first MacOS release that I did not upgrade within a week of availability.Before 10.6. I was willing to give up a little stability to experience that latest greatest OS in the world. I waited at least a year. I currently plan on skipping over Lion or sitting on old hardware until a better OS comes along. Yesterday I purchased a refurbed low end iMac, since that may be the last to run Snow Leopard.

jameslmoser
Dec 14, 2011, 02:27 AM
Are you willing to make the investment in software and hardware simply to run a different OS? Do you know if Windows 8 (or future versions) won't frustrate or annoy you as much as Lion does? Do you really think that Lion is an iOS sales pitch? If so, that's a foolish idea. Lion may have a few elements borrowed from iOS, but they're ones that you do not HAVE to use if you don't want to. For some people they're useful, and for the ones who hate them, they're out of the way.

Oh, I'll also note Snow Leopard got a huge amount of hate after it was released, too. Just in case some of you are thinking of saying, "But Snow Leopard was NEVER this bad!"

I already know I like windows 7 better than lion. I use more than one os on my current hardware. And because ms has public betas, I will know if I want to use the next version before it comes out. And who said I had to use windows? Most of my software is free or has versions for windows, Mac, and Linux. The few software apps I bought that don't I will find alternatives too. Using a system that slows down productivity for me ( and lion definately does) would cost me more than buying a few new apps. I would have to probably do so in the future anyways.

lion is a joke...and there is nothing foolish about that. Paying for an upgrade that is less stable and slower,... Now that's foolish.

Simplicated
Dec 14, 2011, 03:33 AM
I, too, have downgraded (or upgraded?) to Snow Leopard after trying to work with Lion for the past two months. There are just too many features that were not thought out well and eventually only hinder productivity (read: Mission Control, multimonitor mess, etc).

And I made the mistake to move from MobileMe to iCloud, a step that is irreversible... So for the time being I'll just move everything from iCloud to Google since Apple obviously doesn't like its 28 month old operating system, but loves the competitor's 58 month old OS...

Amazing Iceman
Dec 14, 2011, 08:06 AM
Why do so many of you think this? No we won't have too. We can skip lion all together... And if apple doesn't get there crap together by 10.8 (or 11.0...) we can use a different OS all together. lion is a joke... An iOS themed sales pitch for their notebooks. If people don't like it, then we wont use it. And based on the growth rate... that's quite a few people. Especially considering apple forces you to run it on new hardware.

We'll see that...

Regarding Apple forcing you to run it in new hardware, what are you talking about? I'm running it on a 2007 MBP, and it runs great, even with just 4GB.

----------

Uh, correction, just few of you really. Re-check that awesome pole you created that shows that the MOST of us here like Lion. We don't need to use an aging OS such as Snow Leopard to get work done. :D

And we don't blame the computer for not getting our work done, unless it doesn't boot.

squeakr
Dec 14, 2011, 08:13 AM
So basically, the quirks of one app made you stay with Lion... that's fine. But many of us that went back to SL can say the same thing... Mission Control just handled things "wrong" for us.


Wow why so defensive, is no one allowed to like anything about Lion since you hate it so much? I was just stating my opinion. Why does it have to be a quirk? It was designed that way, so isn't that considered a design feature, just like the design features of SL (expose, Spaces, etc)? I too hate Mission Control, but I never use it, so it doesn't bother me any more (did after first).

I do miss Spaces, but was just pointing out that with SL the desktop was tied to a Space and caused me lost productivity. Most of what I do at work can be accomplished in OSX, but unfortunately there are certain Software packages I am required to use at work that will more than likely never be ported to Mac (CRM 4.0 for Outlook, there is rumored to be a version in development for Mac, but it won't be 4.0 and will require the entire organization to upgrade, and several HP products and Internet Explorer to run them due to Active X components needed).

The fact that my VM running these versions needs to be up the entire time I am working and the QUIRK of Lion keeping it locked on mty second scene while I navigate around on my main screen increases my productivity. Sorry you don't like this I was just stating a fact that some might not have found if you don't use it.

Amazing Iceman
Dec 14, 2011, 08:14 AM
I was in the same camp about contemplating moving back to SL specifically for Expose/ Spaces, but then started really using a second screen and found that is where for me Lion shines when compared to SL. I love the fact that when I open my work VM and place it on the secondary desktop, it stays there no matter which desktop I am on on the main desktop. That was one major complaint for me with spaces is that when I switched desktops I lost my VM, as it stayed on the desktop I just switched from. If I could merge spaces and the open desktop docking system of Lion it would be super joy for me. I have found Lion has been more productive for me once I abandoned the SL way of thinking.


Heheh, in SL, you could configure any app to show on one specific VM or in all VMs.
The multi-monitor issue in Lion appears only when switching an app to Full Screen mode. SL doesn't support full screen mode, so you don't really loose SL functionality in Lion by not using Full screen mode.

Just like a few others, I believe that the changes to the UI in Lion are in preparation for touch screen enabled Macs, maybe even a tablet that will run OS X.

Simplicated
Dec 14, 2011, 08:16 AM
so you don't really loose SL functionality in Lion by not using Full screen mode.

iTunes and QuickTime both force you into full screen when you want to watch something in full screen mode.

fisherking
Dec 14, 2011, 08:20 AM
i started out on 10.2. with every new OS, i watch people wonder when the new OS is coming, craving change, enhancements, new stuff.

when the next OS comes, a lot of the same people get hysterical:
why'd they change that? why doesn't it work the way it used to?

then they adapt, time goes on, and they start craving...change, enhancements, new stuff.

eventually, most of these people will move to lion. then, one day, there will be 10.8, and the cycle will start over again.

hey, just my thoughts...! :rolleyes:

Amazing Iceman
Dec 14, 2011, 08:27 AM
iTunes and QuickTime both force you into full screen when you want to watch something in full screen mode.

I use VLC or another player I have to avoid this, or simply use my iPad to play videos. Now the question is: wouldn't watching videos at Full Screen while working affect my productivity?

----------

i started out on 10.2. with every new OS, i watch people wonder when the new OS is coming, craving change, enhancements, new stuff.

when the next OS comes, a lot of the same people get hysterical:
why'd they change that? why doesn't it work the way it used to?

then they adapt, time goes on, and they start craving...change, enhancements, new stuff.

eventually, most of these people will move to lion. then, one day, there will be 10.8, and the cycle will start over again.

hey, just my thoughts...! :rolleyes:

There are three kinds of people in this world:
1) Those who like change and adapt.
2) Those who complain and don't want to adapt, but eventually will adapt.
3) Those who completely refuse to adapt and are proud of it,

squeakr
Dec 14, 2011, 08:29 AM
Heheh, in SL, you could configure any app to show on one specific VM or in all VMs.



Not sure what you are saying, unless you think VM means Virtual Monitor???
By VM I don't mean Virtual Monitor, I mean Virtual Machine (what a VM is). I have to run windows in a VM (I use Fusion, but that is my choice for compatibility with others in my organization). In SL when I opened my VM in the second monitor, it always locked there and didn't move when I switched windows. So if it was the on the second monitor in Desktop1, when I went to Desktop 6, my second monitor would display a blank desktop, and I had to go to Desktop 1 to get access to it again. Maybe there was something with my SL if it wasn't behaving the way Lion does now (doesn't matter which desktop is on main monitor, monitor2 always has my VM Fusion image accessible. If my SL worked the way Lion does, then I would have had even greater productivity.

Amazing Iceman
Dec 14, 2011, 08:34 AM
Not sure what you are saying, unless you think VM means Virtual Monitor???
By VM I don't mean Virtual Monitor, I mean Virtual Machine (what a VM is). I have to run windows in a VM (I use Fusion, but that is my choice for compatibility with others in my organization). In SL when I opened my VM in the second monitor, it always locked there and didn't move when I switched windows. So if it was the on the second monitor in Desktop1, when I went to Desktop 6, my second monitor would display a blank desktop, and I had to go to Desktop 1 to get access to it again. Maybe there was something with my SL if it wasn't behaving the way Lion does now (doesn't matter which desktop is on main monitor, monitor2 always has my VM Fusion image accessible. If my SL worked the way Lion does, then I would have had even greater productivity.


I messed up in my comment... :D I meant desktop. Sorry for the confusion.
I know what a VM is. I have used VMWare, Parallels and VirtualBox since the first one came out.
In SL, when you go to spaces, you could add your app to the list and say for example to Show VMWare on All Desktops.
I did it with Skype, so I could continuously chat or use the webcam in full screen even when changing desktops.

The problem with FullScreen using multiple monitors is being fixed. Actually it's up to the FullScreen app to handle what to do with the second monitor, and if not used, it should be handled by the second application.
Either some flake at Apple designed this without noticing this problem, or it was still released on purposes in its current state with the missing functionality being release in a future update.

Regarding Mission Control, once you figure out how it works, it turns out to be better that what SL has.

squeakr
Dec 14, 2011, 08:52 AM
I see. Mine never gave me that functionality on the second screen only my main screen had the floating functionality (which I keep as the built in display on my MBP). When I moved my Fusion to the second screen to display, it locked it to whatever desktop was displayed at the time. I always liked to use my second screen, as that is the larger of the two displays (and I hate running into strange issues when the screen was disconnected as I had in the past when I swapped them). I can definitely see the increase in productivity if mine worked that way (which is why I originally stated that if I had that functionality with Spaces functionality I would absolutely love it).

I can somewhat see the use of Mission Control, but honestly hate launchers and prefer to just use the dock (same impression about SL as well). I just open everything that I need and minimize into the dock or in the odd event I need something I don't normally use, I have the Application folder in the dock to get to it quickly (although lately have been relying on finder more and more). I am trying to refine my workflow to work more with me than against me! :)

klaxamazoo
Dec 14, 2011, 09:02 AM
I use VLC or another player I have to avoid this, or simply use my iPad to play videos. Now the question is: wouldn't watching videos at Full Screen while working affect my productivity?

----------



There are three kinds of people in this world:
1) Those who like change and adapt.
2) Those who complain and don't want to adapt, but eventually will adapt.
3) Those who completely refuse to adapt and are proud of it,

4) Those who follow without thinking

Not everybody opens their mouth when it starts raining piss

Steve's Barber
Dec 14, 2011, 09:49 AM
Uh, correction, just few of you really. Re-check that awesome pole you created that shows that the MOST of us here like Lion. We don't need to use an aging OS such as Snow Leopard to get work done. :DWhere did *I* create a pole[sic]. Show me please.

I'll wait here.

Joos24
Dec 14, 2011, 10:16 AM
Where did *I* create a pole[sic]. Show me please.

I'll wait here.

OH....my apologies sir..:rolleyes:..you didn't actually create that poll, you just put up a retarded chart and trying to say that the poll that you did post in reflects the declining ratings of Lion which was BS to say the least. Sorry if it bothers you that Lion is here to stay and Snow Leopard is being buried into the earth as we speak but you'll have to deal with it.


You've already said you hate Lion or in different words so why not go to the Snow Leopard forum and enjoy being around members that say good things about it? What's the point of you constantly coming here to piss on Lion and attempt to annoy people with sarcastic remarks? There's a "T" word for that. :p

Amazing Iceman
Dec 14, 2011, 10:30 AM
I see. Mine never gave me that functionality on the second screen only my main screen had the floating functionality (which I keep as the built in display on my MBP). When I moved my Fusion to the second screen to display, it locked it to whatever desktop was displayed at the time. I always liked to use my second screen, as that is the larger of the two displays (and I hate running into strange issues when the screen was disconnected as I had in the past when I swapped them). I can definitely see the increase in productivity if mine worked that way (which is why I originally stated that if I had that functionality with Spaces functionality I would absolutely love it).

I can somewhat see the use of Mission Control, but honestly hate launchers and prefer to just use the dock (same impression about SL as well). I just open everything that I need and minimize into the dock or in the odd event I need something I don't normally use, I have the Application folder in the dock to get to it quickly (although lately have been relying on finder more and more). I am trying to refine my workflow to work more with me than against me! :)

Heheh! I hardly ever use the dock. In reality, I found out it's much faster for me to COMMAND-SPACEBAR and type the name of the app I want.
Mission Control is great to delete apps and to group these into categories.
I have an iPad and I'm used to the same layout, but don't really have the time to arrange things. I mainly use it when I forget the name of the app I want to run. With a Magic Trackpad is easy to get to it with a simple gesture.

----------

4) Those who follow without thinking

Not everybody opens their mouth when it starts raining piss

In case you didn't noticed, my post was about 'adapting' not 'following', two different words with two different meanings. Hence, your post and #4 don't apply here.

squeakr
Dec 14, 2011, 10:37 AM
Heheh! I hardly ever use the dock. In reality, I found out it's much faster for me to COMMAND-SPACEBAR and type the name of the app I want.
Mission Control is great to delete apps and to group these into categories.



Might try this shortcut (I am open to trying new things that makes things easier), I just don't type very fast or accurate!

Amazing Iceman
Dec 14, 2011, 11:02 AM
Might try this shortcut (I am open to trying new things that makes things easier), I just don't type very fast or accurate!

It's all a matter of practice. It took a while for me to get used to the new Apple keyboard, after using the standard PC keyboard for about 28 years. Now I love it!

I used to do more Keyboard shortcuts in Windows than using the mouse to get things accomplished.
Now I'm learning to do the same in OS X.

squeakr
Dec 14, 2011, 11:07 AM
It's not the keyboard. It's that I never learned to type. I went to school when the rage was typewriters, and I never took that class. Computers were just becoming a staple when I graduated. Although I do type better and faster on the bluetooth Mac keyboard than any other I have encountered!

scottsjack
Dec 14, 2011, 11:30 AM
I use VLC or another player I have to avoid this, or simply use my iPad to play videos. Now the question is: wouldn't watching videos at Full Screen while working affect my productivity?

----------



There are three kinds of people in this world:
1) Those who like change and adapt.
2) Those who complain and don't want to adapt, but eventually will adapt.
3) Those who completely refuse to adapt and are proud of it,

Two more. . .
4) Those who like good or useful change but reject change for the sake of change.
5) Those who work with what they perceive is as the best whether it's the latest or nor.

fisherking
Dec 14, 2011, 04:39 PM
Two more. . .
4) Those who like good or useful change but reject change for the sake of change.
5) Those who work with what they perceive is as the best whether it's the latest or nor.

we could make these lists up all day, to accommodate our opinions.

change is NOT always good, but it happens just the same.
and lion will mutate into the best it can be, whether we like it or not.

at SOME POINT in the future, most of us will move to it, or 10.8, or...etc..

who runs 10.3 anymore??

steveOooo
Dec 14, 2011, 05:12 PM
I went from 10.4 - 10.5 then within a week went to 10.6 - now I've recently got a new mac pro with lion - its overall usable / ok ish but I found a few apps crashing on open, QuickTime pro not working and general stuff not 100% so after a week, went to 10.6.8

S looks like I'll be missing 10.7, but will be going to 10.8 / 11.0 or windows as my next Os.

fisherking
Dec 14, 2011, 05:21 PM
I went from 10.4 - 10.5 then within a week went to 10.6 - now I've recently got a new mac pro with lion - its overall usable / ok ish but I found a few apps crashing on open, QuickTime pro not working and general stuff not 100% so after a week, went to 10.6.8

S looks like I'll be missing 10.7, but will be going to 10.8 / 11.0 or windows as my next Os.

hear u, but...whatever was happening (i.e. QT not working) suggests a specific problem, not a general OS issue. were the other apps NOT compatible with lion??

and what if 10.8 requires 10.7.x to update? what if you want to buy an app that requires 10.7? what if 10.7.4 is near-perfect? :rolleyes:

Steve's Barber
Dec 14, 2011, 06:15 PM
OH....my apologies sir..:rolleyes:..you didn't actually create that poll, you just put up a retarded chart… and trying to say that the poll that you did post in reflects the declining ratings…

And seriously, did you even read the "source" link I provide with the "retarded" chart? They're the ones talking about Lion sales leveling off. And the App store rating for Lion is a significant drop compared to what it was the first 2 months it was released. No hate from me... just sharing the facts as observed by others my friend.

Snow Leopard is being buried into the earth as we speak but you'll have to deal with it.I am dealing with it by actually using it. And ironically, with the exception of iCloud and the iOS eye-candy crap it runs everything you're using on Lion. Much faster I might add. Not bad for a dead OS. :) I can even run PowerPC apps just a good as you... oh wait. :eek:

You've already said you hate Lion or in different words so why not go to the Snow Leopard forum and enjoy being around members that say good things about it?

There are more people here in this forum to save from Evil Lion. I shall prevail. :D

Dude. I didn't start this thread. For god's sake man… read the title. What would you expect to find in here?

and what if 10.8 requires 10.7.x to update?Just like users have a way now going from 10.5 to 10.7 Apple will always offer an upgrade path. Shouldn't be a problem.

Besides, I own Lion anyway. (Free upgrade with MBP purchase).

what if you want to buy an app that requires 10.7?Never happen. "Under the hood", iLion is the virtually the same as SL once you get past the iOS clutter.

Jethryn Freyman
Dec 14, 2011, 06:33 PM
Never happen. "Under the hood", iLion is the virtually the same as SL once you get past the iOS clutter.
It already IS happening, for whatever reasons.

jameslmoser
Dec 15, 2011, 12:47 AM
It already IS happening, for whatever reasons.

Really? I havent found an app yet that requires Lion.

steveOooo
Dec 15, 2011, 02:15 PM
hear u, but...whatever was happening (i.e. QT not working) suggests a specific problem, not a general OS issue. were the other apps NOT compatible with lion??

and what if 10.8 requires 10.7.x to update? what if you want to buy an app that requires 10.7? what if 10.7.4 is near-perfect? :rolleyes:

i think qt pro is hit / miss - if you update from 10.6 with qtpro already installed its ok, but clean install on 10.7, and ive heard issues
also mpeg streamclip doesnt work properly, i cant remember exact apps - the biggies, adobe master collection and final cut studio loaded up ok.

Ill see what 10.7.8 is like / 10.8 before deciding - at the moment 10.6.8 is fine, for me as all apps i need for work are fine. An alternative would be a pc with adobe master collection only. :(

klaxamazoo
Dec 15, 2011, 03:47 PM
Really? I havent found an app yet that requires Lion.

I imagine some new applications will start requiring it. The ARC memory management scheme does seem rather nice, not nice enough for me to switch my deploy build to 10.7 but I could see how other developers might.

laudern
Dec 15, 2011, 07:08 PM
People need to get over this. yes we all know lion is ****. Get over it. Those who claim to like it, let them live their denial. We have all been screwed in the past by buying something we thought would be good but turns out a dud. But its only $30, so it wasn't that bad of a scam...life goes on, thread locked...

*LTD*
Dec 15, 2011, 09:51 PM
People need to get over this. yes we all know lion is ****. Get over it. Those who claim to like it, let them live their denial.

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/10/18/apples-record-mac-quarter-almost-unbelievable-in-face-of-ipad-cannibalization/

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/12/12/quarterly_us_mac_sales_up_13_expected_to_grow_in_december.html

All with Lion.

Upcoming:

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/11/14/apples-october-mac-sales-lining-up-for-record-5-million-units-in-quarter/

Also with Lion.

So who exactly is in denial here?

fisherking
Dec 15, 2011, 10:00 PM
People need to get over this. yes we all know lion is ****. Get over it. Those who claim to like it, let them live their denial. We have all been screwed in the past by buying something we thought would be good but turns out a dud. But its only $30, so it wasn't that bad of a scam...life goes on, thread locked...

that's just sad.

with EVERY OS (and for that matter, apps, movies, life, everything), some people are happy, some aren't.

if lion isn't working for you, so it goes. if it IS...so it goes.

this forum is so much better served by peeps helping each other with issues, rather than griping because they're not getting what they want...

Kornelis
Dec 17, 2011, 01:11 PM
After resetting my printing system among other attempted fixes, my Canon MP620 still would not install. Being that it worked fine prior to the printing update that was installed ~ a month ago as well as Apple's documentation stating it did work with Lion, I felt the easiest course of action was a format.

I managed to get my MP620 (WIFI) working under Lion, but this wasn't without a struggle. I had to install it in Cups first before the OSX install program was able to see the printer. I even had to stop my firewall to get it installed.

WSR
Dec 17, 2011, 02:23 PM
that's just sad.

with EVERY OS (and for that matter, apps, movies, life, everything), some people are happy, some aren't.

if lion isn't working for you, so it goes. if it IS...so it goes.

this forum is so much better served by peeps helping each other with issues, rather than griping because they're not getting what they want...

Tough I can agree with you in part, if we don't say what is wrong, Apple won't know what to fix. Hopefully those with either bugs or dislike for the new "features" have sent their grievances directly to Apple, but by also complaining here, we help to make sure Apple knows what is wanted.

Nameci
Dec 17, 2011, 02:24 PM
Tough I can agree with you in part, if we don't say what is wrong, Apple won't know what to fix. Hopefully those with either bugs or dislike for the new "features" have sent their grievances directly to Apple, but by also complaining here, we help to make sure Apple knows what is wanted.

If you complain here, apple will not know. File a complaint direct.

jameslmoser
Dec 17, 2011, 03:00 PM
I imagine some new applications will start requiring it. The ARC memory management scheme does seem rather nice, not nice enough for me to switch my deploy build to 10.7 but I could see how other developers might.

Not likely... Lion didn't provide any new Frameworks that app developers will take advantage of that aren't already in Snow Leopard. Lion really wasn't much of an upgrade. I'll say it again, Lion is an iOS themed commercial for apple to sell its notebooks to people who have iphones and ipads. Thats pretty much it... its garbage. Its like the marketing department took control when Steve wasn't able to fend them off anymore, and the took a great intuitive OS and make it a sales pitch.

MartiNZ
Dec 17, 2011, 03:31 PM
...or he could just switch to Windows 7 ;)

That's what Lion made me do! I was already bootcamped since Vista, which made it easier to just switch. I think it might be time for MS to do some switcher marketing :D.

Joos24
Dec 17, 2011, 04:05 PM
Tough I can agree with you in part, if we don't say what is wrong, Apple won't know what to fix. Hopefully those with either bugs or dislike for the new "features" have sent their grievances directly to Apple, but by also complaining here, we help to make sure Apple knows what is wanted.

Nice try but Apple doesn't follow these boards. This is just a place where people come to share their miseries. And thank goodness Apple doesn't follow these boards, there are some new things about Lion I actually like and this forum is so mean vocally that we could lose them if Apple obeyed their every command. :rolleyes:

phyrexia
Dec 17, 2011, 08:53 PM
I think you guys are kidding yourselves if you think corporations don't pay attention to user forums. This is the biggest Apple forum on the internet, isn't it? Much smaller companies than Apple have employees that look at sites like this.

I doubt Apple would ever have an active presence here, but someone is looking at some point.

frnak
Dec 17, 2011, 09:48 PM
I beg you to unstack windows in Lion Apple...


http://cl.ly/CgGb/Screeny.png
http://cl.ly/Cgr3/12380447.jpg

Steve's Barber
Dec 17, 2011, 09:56 PM
Not likely... Lion didn't provide any new Frameworks that app developers will take advantage of that aren't already in Snow Leopard. Lion really wasn't much of an upgrade. I'll say it again, Lion is an iOS themed commercial for apple to sell its notebooks to people who have iphones and ipads. Thats pretty much it... its garbage. Its like the marketing department took control when Steve wasn't able to fend them off anymore, and the took a great intuitive OS and make it a sales pitch.Probably the best definition of Lion I've read to date.

Sorry... I could only take away 1 of your negs. :D

Joos24
Dec 17, 2011, 09:57 PM
I think you guys are kidding yourselves if you think corporations don't pay attention to user forums. This is the biggest Apple forum on the internet, isn't it? Much smaller companies than Apple have employees that look at sites like this.

I doubt Apple would ever have an active presence here, but someone is looking at some point.

Uh, the biggest Apple forum on the internet?? Well I dunno about that but you should keep in mind that this is "Rumor Site" and it's not the best place for a company to take extremely seriously. Apple does have their own discussion forums. Another thing, there's a major difference between complaining and constructive criticism, MR does more complaining and that tends to get overlooked due to being overly excessive and annoying.

Although many people have legitimate issues I hardly ever see a post where someone takes responsibility for their system issues, they always blame Apple or Lion. When someone comes here with a major rant they always leave out the important things like their system type, all softwares and haxies installed and such. This leaves them open game to press blame without accepting it. Do you honestly think Apple can take posts like that into consideration? That's why they prefer to have people report issues on their website in the designated area.
When people complain here they are looking for the majority to join in on them and gang up on Apple. When you have to send your concerns to Apple you are alone, but I'm sure Apple takes you more seriously that way. Just sayin'.

Simplicated
Dec 17, 2011, 10:17 PM
I beg you to unstack windows in Lion Apple...


Image (http://cl.ly/CgGb/Screeny.png)
Image (http://cl.ly/Cgr3/12380447.jpg)

Oh look at the Lion brigade who downvotes anything anti-Lion... They must think stacking windows is a very practical way to show your windows. :rolleyes:

vitzr
Dec 17, 2011, 11:03 PM
And sooner or later you will have to update to Lion, so why wait?

That's just one way to look at it.

While it's true that Lion will be the sole version of OS X going forward, that in no way is an indicator that it's better for all users.

I've spent quite some time optimizing 10.6.8, and its ideal for me.

In addition because I tend to be an early adopter, I took a slightly different approach. Always one to be Pro-Apple and eager to experience their latest, I bought a new 13" Lion equipped MBA.

This allows me to have the best possible Lion experience since it's sure to have the appropriate combination of hardware & software direct from Apple. My take on Lion? It's not bad, yet there are "features" that I find annoying, that I don't need, and that even when turned off or ignored, still have a negative impact on my work flow.

Am I condemning Lion? Absolutely not.

As an individual who's computer use is as a professional in a demanding work environment, speed and efficiency are paramount. Therefore I'm not inclined to jump on the bandwagon just because Apples anointed Lion as "The Greatest". What I have now is the fastest & best solution for my requirements.

For those with different needs I can see where Lion is the best for them. I'm not one that has to "be right" to be happy or effective. Nor do I bash a product because it may not fit my current needs.

Finally, I wouldn't be surprised that as Apple has more time to work on future revs, that it may end up being just right for me. That's one aspect of Apple I like and why I've remained loyal for two decades. Apple is a company that continues to refine and improve.

phyrexia
Dec 17, 2011, 11:05 PM
Uh, the biggest Apple forum on the internet?? Well I dunno about that but you should keep in mind that this is "Rumor Site" and it's not the best place for a company to take extremely seriously. Apple does have their own discussion forums. Another thing, there's a major difference between complaining and constructive criticism, MR does more complaining and that tends to get overlooked due to being overly excessive and annoying.

Although many people have legitimate issues I hardly ever see a post where someone takes responsibility for their system issues, they always blame Apple or Lion. When someone comes here with a major rant they always leave out the important things like their system type, all softwares and haxies installed and such. This leaves them open game to press blame without accepting it. Do you honestly think Apple can take posts like that into consideration? That's why they prefer to have people report issues on their website in the designated area.
When people complain here they are looking for the majority to join in on them and gang up on Apple. When you have to send your concerns to Apple you are alone, but I'm sure Apple takes you more seriously that way. Just sayin'.

Aside from Apple's official forums, this forum is easily the largest Apple forum on the internet. There are 6500 individuals browsing this forum right now. There are 1.2 million active threads. And yes, the domain is macrumors.com, but this is a forum for discussion about lots of things aside from rumors (this comes as no to surprise to any of us).

mac-forums.com comes up ahead of this place when you google "apple forums", but is much smaller. The most users ever at mac-forums.com was about 8500. forums.macrumors.com's highest user count is 46,157. :eek:

Of course there are lots of complainers here. That's how it works. The people who are happy aren't yelling about how happy they are, or how not-broken their machine is. :) And I agree a lot of people complaining are crazy or haven't tried to figure out how to solve their problem.

edit: and I am in no way asserting that Lion is perfect. I have a couple major gripes but I deal.

fisherking
Dec 18, 2011, 09:27 AM
i don't care about the eye candy. i don't use mission control. in fact, i don't use the dock, haven't for years.

what i love about lion is that it's been stable, and fast for me. i earn my living on my macbook pro, and that's what i need most.

i wish apple, (& microsoft, for that matter) would focus on this:
speed, stability, invisibility, simplicity.

i don't want to be thinking about the OS, i want to be focused on the WORK (or play) that i'm doing...

colourfastt
Dec 18, 2011, 10:31 AM
i don't care about the eye candy. i don't use mission control. in fact, i don't use the dock, haven't for years.

what i love about lion is that it's been stable, and fast for me. i earn my living on my macbook pro, and that's what i need most.

i wish apple, (& microsoft, for that matter) would focus on this:
speed, stability, invisibility, simplicity.

i don't want to be thinking about the OS, i want to be focused on the WORK (or play) that i'm doing...

Both Apple and Microsoft are "dumbing down" their OSes to the point that you won't have a computer; you'll have a toy you bought at Toys-R-Us.

Mackilroy
Dec 18, 2011, 10:49 AM
Both Apple and Microsoft are "dumbing down" their OSes to the point that you won't have a computer; you'll have a toy you bought at Toys-R-Us.
Adding features similar to what iOS has to OS X to make using a computer easier for the general public is not dumbing it down. You still have the command line, you still have most of the software (sans PPC, and if you're still on that you should have found a Universal solution years ago, as Apple hasn't sold a PPC Mac since 2006), you still have everything available that allows you to do real work. Where exactly is this phantom "dumbing down" you speak of? Features borrowed from iOS aren't it.

LxHunter
Dec 18, 2011, 01:48 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

Both Apple and Microsoft are "dumbing down" their OSes to the point that you won't have a computer; you'll have a toy you bought at Toys-R-Us.
Adding features similar to what iOS has to OS X to make using a computer easier for the general public is not dumbing it down. You still have the command line, you still have most of the software (sans PPC, and if you're still on that you should have found a Universal solution years ago, as Apple hasn't sold a PPC Mac since 2006), you still have everything available that allows you to do real work. Where exactly is this phantom "dumbing down" you speak of? Features borrowed from iOS aren't it.

Address book is now useless for work.
iCal looks like a Cabbage Patch app.
Expose is pooched.
Yes, Apple has dumbed down OS X

StevenMeyer
Dec 18, 2011, 02:05 PM
Look if you do not like these changes lrn2unix/linux. If you want powerful applications buy Office.

LxHunter
Dec 18, 2011, 02:40 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

Since I use the full Office suite for work I am planning my switch back to PC. Also means I have no reason not to switch my iPhone 4S for Android.
I am not complaining - I am switching.

StevenMeyer
Dec 18, 2011, 02:44 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

Since I use the full Office suite for work I am planning my switch back to PC. Also means I have no reason not to switch my iPhone 4S for Android.
I am not complaining - I am switching.

This is why my main desktop is a Win7 and my main laptop in Lion/win7/Backtrack. Also if your not using an android you should be, it is farrrrrrr superior (not locked up and 4g for years now). Understand that no one OS is the best or most progressive.

Steve's Barber
Dec 18, 2011, 02:59 PM
Since I use the full Office suite for work I am planning my switch back to PC. Also means I have no reason not to switch my iPhone 4S for Android.
I am not complaining - I am switching.I'm not quite there yet but did go back to Snow Leopard. Liberating to say the least. When 10.8 comes out I'll give it some scrutiny and decide from there but I have a feeling that iLion is just the beginning of the iOS takeover.

My company provided me an iPhone so I'm stuck with it. I've often said it does everything amazingly well except it's just a lousy phone. Were it up to me I'd just duct tape a crappy $19 Nokia to the back of an ipod touch. :D

Mackilroy
Dec 18, 2011, 06:16 PM
Address book is now useless for work.
iCal looks like a Cabbage Patch app.
Expose is pooched.
Yes, Apple has dumbed down OS X
You're talking about looks, not actual use. Address Book still allows you to add people in and keep track of their contact info, right? iCal still allows you to keep track of events and such, right? You don't like how it looks – fine, but that is not equivalent to it being useless. And if you do dislike them, there are readily available alternatives. I don't use iCal or Address Book at all, even on my old MacBook which is only capable of running up to 10.6.

GermanyChris
Dec 18, 2011, 07:13 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)



Address book is now useless for work.
iCal looks like a Cabbage Patch app.
Expose is pooched.
Yes, Apple has dumbed down OS X

LOL

I use address book for work

iCal looked stupid in Snow Leopard and Lion..no change

I know windows not laid out in a 3x3 grid are more than you can handle, I'm sorry..oh wait you can't move apps from a non-active window to another non-active window...thats why you give each app it's own desktop.

No it's not been dumbed down, smart people have figure out how to bring Snow Leopard to Lion..

laudern
Dec 18, 2011, 07:38 PM
No it's not been dumbed down, smart people have figure out how to bring Snow Leopard to Lion..

no, just dumb people believe anything smart people tell them

klaxamazoo
Dec 19, 2011, 07:03 AM
LOL

I use address book for work

iCal looked stupid in Snow Leopard and Lion..no change

I know windows not laid out in a 3x3 grid are more than you can handle, I'm sorry..oh wait you can't move apps from a non-active window to another non-active window...thats why you give each app it's own desktop.

No it's not been dumbed down, smart people have figure out how to bring Snow Leopard to Lion..

Address Book is pathetic in Lion. A 2 column view with a stupid, worthless page flipping is annoying as all hell. Do you have any idea how many Wong's, Wang's and Lin's there are? Putting people into their respective groups makes life a lot easier and it is annoying to have to flip pages just to see groups and individuals. Stupid ****ing design.

iCal sucks harder in Lion. No mini-month? Really? That is pathetic.

In terms of Mission Control. Most likely you have a simple workflow with only a few Applications and windows open. I typically have 40+ windows at any given time. You see, I am a scientist, I use my computer for work, not making iPhoto vacation albums to send to grandma.
And NO, App Expose is not a subsitute because it takes you out of Mission Control and now you can't drag you windows between Spaces.
I do not want to have 10 - 15 spaces and separating content by Application is a ****** workflow.

Typical Content for writing a research paper includes:

Application
- # of Windows open
- Use
Microsoft Word:
-2 - 3
- Writing articles, referencing old work
Papers:
- 1
- For organizing journal articles
Bookends:
- 1 - 2
- For organizing references cited
Microsoft Excel
- 1 - 5
- This is data. I write about data
DataGraph
- 1 - 5
- Excel's graphing process sucks
iView Media Pro
- 1
- For organizing images
Adobe Photoshop
- 1 - 10
- For measuring/adjusting images
Adobe Illustrator
- 1 - 4
- For making Figures
Adobe Bridge
- 1
- For organizing Illustrator templates
Preview
- 10 - 20
- For seeing individual images, copy/paste from journal articles
Finder
- 5 - 10
- For organizing individual files
BusyCal
- 1
- iCal sucks these days, even in Snow Leopard
Address Book
- 1
- I have a lot of people to e-mail and call during the day
Mail
- 1 - 3
- Primary window plus some e-mails I might be writing
iTunes
- 1
- Music
Custom Programs
- 4
- For custom data collection, measurement, organization, reporting



I do NOT have the option to organize content by Application and put each application in its own Space. Content is organized by use. The images I'm writing about are opened on the display next to the Word documents. Excel is paired with Datagraph except for the graphs that I am currently writing about, which go on the screen next to the Word Documents. Etc. Etc.

Maybe you have a simple workflow. Good for you. Sometimes I wish I could be content with simple things, but then I remember that being able to do complicated things in a simple manner rocks. Snow Leopard lets me do complicated things in a simple manner. Lion is Simplistic and cannot handle workflows with lots of content.

The #1 advantage that OSX had over Windows as Content/Window management. That was the reason I have loved Apple, because Apple made it easy to handle a lot of content. Lion does NOT handle a lot of content very well at all. Lion barely handles dual monitors.

So don't pretend that Lion is a capable OS as compared to Snow Leopard. Lion's Mission Control, Address Book, iCal, etc. is a pathetic attempt at content management. Version Control could have been great, but is horribly implemented, iCloud is still buggy and doesn't provide basic syncing of Contacts and Calendars with Snow Leopard, gestures are nice but that is about it.

This is the first OS release where content management got worse. Starting from 10.4, I have enthusiastically upgraded every time and been really, really happy with it (except for 10.6 Expose, but there's a hack for that). Lion, was taken off my main computer within 2 weeks. If I could put Snow Leopard on my macbook air I would, but luckily I only have to use the macbook air when I travel.

Hopefully Windows or someone else will pick up the slack by the time 10.8 comes out. I doubt that Apple will get better under Tim Cook. Tim is not a product person. He has no taste and no vision. He is good at supply management, not product design.

GermanyChris
Dec 19, 2011, 07:44 AM
Address Book is pathetic in Lion. A 2 column view with a stupid, worthless page flipping is annoying as all hell. Do you have any idea how many Wong's, Wang's and Lin's there are? Putting people into their respective groups makes life a lot easier and it is annoying to have to flip pages just to see groups and individuals. Stupid ****ing design.

iCal sucks harder in Lion. No mini-month? Really? That is pathetic.

In terms of Mission Control. Most likely you have a simple workflow with only a few Applications and windows open. I typically have 40+ windows at any given time. You see, I am a scientist, I use my computer for work, not making iPhoto vacation albums to send to grandma.
And NO, App Expose is not a subsitute because it takes you out of Mission Control and now you can't drag you windows between Spaces.
I do not want to have 10 - 15 spaces and separating content by Application is a ****** workflow.

Typical Content for writing a research paper includes:

Application
- # of Windows open
- Use
Microsoft Word:
-2 - 3
- Writing articles, referencing old work
Papers:
- 1
- For organizing journal articles
Bookends:
- 1 - 2
- For organizing references cited
Microsoft Excel
- 1 - 5
- This is data. I write about data
DataGraph
- 1 - 5
- Excel's graphing process sucks
iView Media Pro
- 1
- For organizing images
Adobe Photoshop
- 1 - 10
- For measuring/adjusting images
Adobe Illustrator
- 1 - 4
- For making Figures
Adobe Bridge
- 1
- For organizing Illustrator templates
Preview
- 10 - 20
- For seeing individual images, copy/paste from journal articles
Finder
- 5 - 10
- For organizing individual files
BusyCal
- 1
- iCal sucks these days, even in Snow Leopard
Address Book
- 1
- I have a lot of people to e-mail and call during the day
Mail
- 1 - 3
- Primary window plus some e-mails I might be writing
iTunes
- 1
- Music
Custom Programs
- 4
- For custom data collection, measurement, organization, reporting



I do NOT have the option to organize content by Application and put each application in its own Space. Content is organized by use. The images I'm writing about are opened on the display next to the Word documents. Excel is paired with Datagraph except for the graphs that I am currently writing about, which go on the screen next to the Word Documents. Etc. Etc.

Maybe you have a simple workflow. Good for you. Sometimes I wish I could be content with simple things, but then I remember that being able to do complicated things in a simple manner rocks. Snow Leopard lets me do complicated things in a simple manner. Lion is Simplistic and cannot handle workflows with lots of content.

The #1 advantage that OSX had over Windows as Content/Window management. That was the reason I have loved Apple, because Apple made it easy to handle a lot of content. Lion does NOT handle a lot of content very well at all. Lion barely handles dual monitors.

So don't pretend that Lion is a capable OS as compared to Snow Leopard. Lion's Mission Control, Address Book, iCal, etc. is a pathetic attempt at content management. Version Control could have been great, but is horribly implemented, iCloud is still buggy and doesn't provide basic syncing of Contacts and Calendars with Snow Leopard, gestures are nice but that is about it.

This is the first OS release where content management got worse. Starting from 10.4, I have enthusiastically upgraded every time and been really, really happy with it (except for 10.6 Expose, but there's a hack for that). Lion, was taken off my main computer within 2 weeks. If I could put Snow Leopard on my macbook air I would, but luckily I only have to use the macbook air when I travel.

Hopefully Windows or someone else will pick up the slack by the time 10.8 comes out. I doubt that Apple will get better under Tim Cook. Tim is not a product person. He has no taste and no vision. He is good at supply management, not product design.

For you it is....

The rest is just a rant

klaxamazoo
Dec 19, 2011, 07:48 AM
For you it is....

The rest is just a rant

Or it is data showing why Mission Control does not work. Separating Applications into different Spaces does not work when that content must be viewed together with 15 other applications.

Are you telling me you use 15 Spaces in Mission Control and 40+ windows?

GermanyChris
Dec 19, 2011, 08:41 AM
Or it is data showing why Mission Control does not work. Separating Applications into different Spaces does not work when that content must be viewed together with 15 other applications.

Are you telling me you use 15 Spaces in Mission Control and 40+ windows?

I use 12 spaces not arranged by usage..and the number of windows depends on what I'm doing..

You're obviously quite smart I'm sure you'll figure out a way to make it work..

It was a rant because the system is crap because it doesn't work for you.. but that does not by definition make it crap..but it does workfor me, now that I've used on and off again since July.. I like it in many ways better, but that doesn't make Snow Leopard crap..

P.S. are you from Kalamazoo?

klaxamazoo
Dec 19, 2011, 11:01 AM
I use 12 spaces not arranged by usage..and the number of windows depends on what I'm doing..

You're obviously quite smart I'm sure you'll figure out a way to make it work..

It was a rant because the system is crap because it doesn't work for you.. but that does not by definition make it crap..but it does workfor me, now that I've used on and off again since July.. I like it in many ways better, but that doesn't make Snow Leopard crap..

P.S. are you from Kalamazoo?

How do you work with such small Spaces? All, that swiping back and forth just to move windows around, or dealing with all that windows sliding animation.

I guess it is a rant because I have very low tolerance for anything that, in my opinion, is wasteful. I find the UI of Lion to be full of wasteful, inefficient steps. i.e. why Duplicate a document and make me close the old one? That is just one more, extraneous step that isn't needed. Bugs me every time.

Overall, there are very few bugs in Lion, but a lot of things that bug me.

I'm not from Kalamazoo, but I do have an old Gibson Mercury Amp that was built there.

tkermit
Dec 19, 2011, 12:09 PM
How do you work with such small Spaces? All, that swiping back and forth just to move windows around, or dealing with all that windows sliding animation.

You can option-click on inactive spaces in Mission Control. No swiping necessary.

Amazing Iceman
Dec 19, 2011, 12:19 PM
In Lion, I move apps between spaces with no trouble at all. Not sure what the previous posters are talking about.
Anyway, I'm still making money and getting my work done with Lion, so I have no complains.

The little annoyances will eventually get fixed.
I'll never go back to Windows... Sorry, not now not ever.

And those people talking about Lion apps looking like toys, wait until you see Windows 8.

gumblecosby
Dec 19, 2011, 12:21 PM
Address Book is pathetic in Lion. A 2 column view with a stupid, worthless page flipping is annoying as all hell. Do you have any idea how many Wong's, Wang's and Lin's there are? Putting people into their respective groups makes life a lot easier and it is annoying to have to flip pages just to see groups and individuals. Stupid ****ing design.

iCal sucks harder in Lion. No mini-month? Really? That is pathetic.

In terms of Mission Control. Most likely you have a simple workflow with only a few Applications and windows open. I typically have 40+ windows at any given time. You see, I am a scientist, I use my computer for work, not making iPhoto vacation albums to send to grandma.
And NO, App Expose is not a subsitute because it takes you out of Mission Control and now you can't drag you windows between Spaces.
I do not want to have 10 - 15 spaces and separating content by Application is a ****** workflow.

Typical Content for writing a research paper includes:

Application
- # of Windows open
- Use
Microsoft Word:
-2 - 3
- Writing articles, referencing old work
Papers:
- 1
- For organizing journal articles
Bookends:
- 1 - 2
- For organizing references cited
Microsoft Excel
- 1 - 5
- This is data. I write about data
DataGraph
- 1 - 5
- Excel's graphing process sucks
iView Media Pro
- 1
- For organizing images
Adobe Photoshop
- 1 - 10
- For measuring/adjusting images
Adobe Illustrator
- 1 - 4
- For making Figures
Adobe Bridge
- 1
- For organizing Illustrator templates
Preview
- 10 - 20
- For seeing individual images, copy/paste from journal articles
Finder
- 5 - 10
- For organizing individual files
BusyCal
- 1
- iCal sucks these days, even in Snow Leopard
Address Book
- 1
- I have a lot of people to e-mail and call during the day
Mail
- 1 - 3
- Primary window plus some e-mails I might be writing
iTunes
- 1
- Music
Custom Programs
- 4
- For custom data collection, measurement, organization, reporting



I do NOT have the option to organize content by Application and put each application in its own Space. Content is organized by use. The images I'm writing about are opened on the display next to the Word documents. Excel is paired with Datagraph except for the graphs that I am currently writing about, which go on the screen next to the Word Documents. Etc. Etc.

Maybe you have a simple workflow. Good for you. Sometimes I wish I could be content with simple things, but then I remember that being able to do complicated things in a simple manner rocks. Snow Leopard lets me do complicated things in a simple manner. Lion is Simplistic and cannot handle workflows with lots of content.

The #1 advantage that OSX had over Windows as Content/Window management. That was the reason I have loved Apple, because Apple made it easy to handle a lot of content. Lion does NOT handle a lot of content very well at all. Lion barely handles dual monitors.

So don't pretend that Lion is a capable OS as compared to Snow Leopard. Lion's Mission Control, Address Book, iCal, etc. is a pathetic attempt at content management. Version Control could have been great, but is horribly implemented, iCloud is still buggy and doesn't provide basic syncing of Contacts and Calendars with Snow Leopard, gestures are nice but that is about it.

This is the first OS release where content management got worse. Starting from 10.4, I have enthusiastically upgraded every time and been really, really happy with it (except for 10.6 Expose, but there's a hack for that). Lion, was taken off my main computer within 2 weeks. If I could put Snow Leopard on my macbook air I would, but luckily I only have to use the macbook air when I travel.

Hopefully Windows or someone else will pick up the slack by the time 10.8 comes out. I doubt that Apple will get better under Tim Cook. Tim is not a product person. He has no taste and no vision. He is good at supply management, not product design.


You will be OK on snow leopard until 10.8. Apple will provide security updates for 10.6 until then.

Swapping windows between spaces in Mission Control is a bit of a nuisance. You have to visit each space individually to move the window.

When an program has more than 5 windows open, ungrouping them still does not display all the windows clearly.

Here is a basic example of this problem along with what Apple should do instead when you spread the windows in Mission Control:

Joos24
Dec 19, 2011, 01:01 PM
You will be OK on snow leopard until 10.8. Apple will provide security updates for 10.6 until then.



Firstly, regardless of past history, please don't post something as fact when you can't provide anything to back that up.



Swapping windows between spaces in Mission Control is a bit of a nuisance. You have to visit each space individually to move the window.


Agreed, Apple could make transferring application windows between spaces much easier.


When an program has more than 5 windows open, ungrouping them still does not display all the windows clearly.



I would certainly like to know how you made that screenshot? :confused: When in All App Expose the menubar doesn't remain on the desktop . Did you just manually put those windows together to make a point? ;) Also, isn't that Snow Leopard you're using??? I can tell. Please be legit if you're gonna shoot Lion down. :rolleyes:
I have 6 application windows ungrouped and they are perfectly aligned as shown in my screenshot vs. yours.

jameslmoser
Dec 19, 2011, 01:10 PM
No it's not been dumbed down, smart people have figure out how to bring Snow Leopard to Lion..

Its dumb that you would have to do this! Why would you "upgrade" just to disable all the stupid crap the upgrade gave you and have to figure out how to get it to work like the previous system? I would say its has been dumbed down.

gumblecosby
Dec 19, 2011, 01:15 PM
Firstly, regardless of past history, please don't post something as fact when you can't provide anything to back that up.



Agreed, Apple could make transferring application windows between spaces much easier.




I would certainly like to know how you made that screenshot? :confused: When in All App Expose the menubar doesn't remain on the desktop as in my attached screenshot. Did you just manually put those windows together to make a point? ;)
I have 6 application windows ungrouped and they are perfectly aligned.

Well the first seems to be common practice for apple when it comes to security updates for previous versions of Mac OS. But your right, its not set in stone anywhere.

The first screenshot is if you have six windows spread in Mission Control.
The second screenshot is just expose, the 10.5 and earlier version, which I used as a suggestion for a solution to the issue

Joos24
Dec 19, 2011, 01:19 PM
Well the first seems to be common practice for apple when it comes to security updates for previous versions of Mac OS. But your right, its not set in stone anywhere.

The first screenshot is if you have six windows spread in Mission Control.
The second screenshot is just expose, the 10.5 and earlier version, which I used as a suggestion for a solution to the issue

But you're not being honest in posting illegitimate screenshots. This is the issue with Macrumors. It creates FUD. A newcomer that might want to switch from Windows to OS X will see your post and the wrong screenshot showing the supposedly "Lion Expose" and it scare them from wanting to use Lion.

If you need to prove a problem about Lion post a Lion screenshot as I did above. I am not experiencing this defect in All App Expose in Lion.

gumblecosby
Dec 19, 2011, 01:32 PM
But you're not being honest in posting illegitimate screenshots. This is the issue with Macrumors. It creates FUD. A newcomer that might want to switch from Windows to OS X will see your post and the wrong screenshot showing the supposedly "Lion Expose" and it scare them from wanting to use Lion.

If you need to prove a problem about Lion post a Lion screenshot as I did above. I am not experiencing this defect in All App Expose in Lion.

I dont get what is illegitimate. One screenshot is from Lion, as I said , and the other is just a shot of an older form of expose in Leopard.

Im not talking about app expose in Lion by the way. Just Mission Control. App expose is fine in Lion.

Joos24
Dec 19, 2011, 02:02 PM
I dont get what is illegitimate. One screenshot is from Lion, as I said , and the other is just a shot of an older form of expose in Leopard.

Im not talking about app expose in Lion by the way. Just Mission Control. App expose is fine in Lion.

Okay, my apologies for misunderstanding your post. I see what you were saying now. While I do agree that App Expose feature should be incorporated in MC, the feature is available at least. Your post made it seem like there was no way to fully expose app windows.

Mackilroy
Dec 19, 2011, 02:26 PM
Its dumb that you would have to do this! Why would you "upgrade" just to disable all the stupid crap the upgrade gave you and have to figure out how to get it to work like the previous system? I would say its has been dumbed down.
False argument – you do not have to. You may want to, but you certainly do not have to. I didn't want to, as Lion works perfectly fine for me.

scottsjack
Dec 19, 2011, 05:41 PM
I use 12 spaces not arranged by usage..and the number of windows depends on what I'm doing..

You're obviously quite smart I'm sure you'll figure out a way to make it work..

It was a rant because the system is crap because it doesn't work for you.. but that does not by definition make it crap..but it does workfor me, now that I've used on and off again since July.. I like it in many ways better, but that doesn't make Snow Leopard crap..

P.S. are you from Kalamazoo?

No, the system really is crap. It's just that some people don't mind, don't notice or can live with crap. Such is life.

frnak
Dec 19, 2011, 09:46 PM
From what I can see from Apple, is that they're incredibly focused on one portion of their business. After the invention of the iOS, Apple has slowly pulled out of innovating for Mac OS X, but who could blame them, it has hit a critical point where the desktop OS cannot grow as fast as it did before.


That being said though, I'm a little disappointed at just the sheer amount of inconsistencies and mistakes that Apple is making with their desktop softwares. Mission Control is a big one, as I've posted many times in this forum, but other things such as Final Cut Pro and the inconsistencies in full screen apps just makes Apple feel "dumbed down", at least not as perfect as it was before. I used to be super jealous of Mac users and OS X, eventually I got a Macbook Pro, and truly enjoyed the elegance and efficiency of Snow Leopard. But ever since Lion came out, problems (or perhaps bad features) started to show up, and I can no longer distinctively say that the Apple platform is better than Windows.

Maybe it's just because I've been exposed to the Mac side, I'm starting to be more critical of the software, but it certainly seems less "perfect" than it did a few years ago. Aside from that, iOS is probably the most crisp and well done software to date. I just wish if they intend on going to that direction, that they tread carefully in adding new features or changing current features in their operating systems for desktops.

I love Apple, and I love Mac, I just hope they can be perfected like it was a few years ago.

thestickman
Dec 19, 2011, 10:04 PM
I came to Mac during 10.4 from Windows to find a stable platform for DAW work. Tiger was good. Leopard was better. SL was way better--for me. Lion hasn't started out as well as SL did for me & I've gone back to SL for a time but recently returned to Lion on all my macs because plugins were updated, etc...

I don't run anything beside Logic or Waveburner when I am working so I've not had to deal with the issues some in this thread report because that have x number of apps running at once, etc. Lion is now rock solid stable for me & I can get my work done without issue.

If you don't like Lion, don't use it.
If you like it, use it.

Just my 3.5 cents :)

r0k
Dec 19, 2011, 10:10 PM
I've upgraded all our machines to Lion. On my Macbook, the beachball is my constant companion. I'm not sure what is causing it. Is it that I leave 3 Chrome windows open with 20 tabs each on my second monitor? Is it that I use ripit and handbrake non stop? Is it TurboCad? Is it the half dozen terminals open with ssh sessions? Is it Xcode? Is it my 20 Totalfinder tabs? All I know is I hear my fan whenever ripit or handbrake is going. I'm tired of that fan. And I'm tired of that spinning beachball. I don't see it as often as I see the snake eating itself on Windows 7, but the beachball should really be a novelty not a constant companion.

Would I blame this stuff on Lion? Not especially, but I do notice less stability than I once enjoyed under SL. I've turned off backwards scrolling. I've turned off open every window of every app every time I reboot or log out and log back in. I'd be hard pressed to come up with "features" I like in Lion beyond iCloud. I don't like the way address book and ical look but I hardly use them anyway. I never touch that "rocket thing" and scrolling endlessly through dozens of pages to find one of 400 apps is something I really don't like about iOS. Mission control works ok for me but I must admit I never made heavy use of expose anyway.

Would I consider going back to SL? I can't think of a scenario where I would consider it but I do wish Apple would tighten up the stability and performance to be on par with Snow Leopard. I hope Apple makes iCloud available to SL users before June 2012. I imagine there are quite a few who want to hold on to SL, as evidenced by this thread, and kicking them out of Apple's cloud for not being on the latest OS is heavy handed, IMHO. I should also mention I have a G4 mini on the other side of the room for that handful of Rosetta apps I simply cannot live without.

GermanyChris
Dec 20, 2011, 01:28 AM
No, the system really is crap. It's just that some people don't mind, don't notice or can live with crap. Such is life.

As all the positive that show up in this thread show it's not crap..good and bad are subjective..

I does/doesn't work for me I love/hate Lion..

Lion is fine it just "feels heavy" that feeling is unpleasant. Lion feels a lot like Ubuntu does in Linux.

cubbie5150
Dec 21, 2011, 05:26 PM
Can't believe it, but I'm gonna ditch Lion & go back to Snow Leopard too. Guess Lion just wasn't meant for an older machine like mine (2.16GHz C2d, pre-Santa Rosa MBP; maxed-out 3 GB RAM). I'm getting tired of all the system lock-ups when watching video (especially HD, 720p vid regardless of whether I'm using QT/Perian, VLC or M PlayerX). I have to do a hard shut-down (hold down power button, then re-start); PITA also since auto-resume always makes all apps start-up upon re-boot. Also lots of random graphics glitches (go away w/ either mouse or keyboard input). I have Snow Leo on an external FW drive, and watching the same video causes zero issues. It HAS to be Lion....

r0k
Dec 21, 2011, 10:00 PM
Can't believe it, but I'm gonna ditch Lion & go back to Snow Leopard too. Guess Lion just wasn't meant for an older machine like mine (2.16GHz C2d, pre-Santa Rosa MBP; maxed-out 3 GB RAM). I'm getting tired of all the system lock-ups when watching video (especially HD, 720p vid regardless of whether I'm using QT/Perian, VLC or M PlayerX). I have to do a hard shut-down (hold down power button, then re-start); PITA also since auto-resume always makes all apps start-up upon re-boot. Also lots of random graphics glitches (go away w/ either mouse or keyboard input). I have Snow Leo on an external FW drive, and watching the same video causes zero issues. It HAS to be Lion....

I returned my Santa Rosa Macbook for my Penryn Macbook so I'm only a generation newer than you. Lion is on all our machines, including several Minis with only 2 gig of RAM. It runs fine (for casual use). In my Macbook, I have 4 gig of RAM and a "hybrid" SSD HDD. I see the beachball entirely too much. I had to hold power down to restart my machine several times the other day. But it was software, not Lion. Chrome's wheels come off almost daily and I had some DVD ripper that lost its brains and murdered my session (requiring a power button hold to reboot). But these minor quirks are very rare and are not enough to make me consider going back to SL.

BTW, you do realize you can shut off many of the things in Lion that annoy you, right? Getting rid of backwards scrolling is a few clicks in system preferences and so is getting rid of opening applications with all their previous documents. Lastly, getting rid of opening everything after a reboot is another quick preference toggle (as far as I can recall - I reboot so rarely these days). The biggest offending hoggish apps I have are Chrome, Safari, iPhoto (if I leave it running), and especially handbrake.

Once I get beyond this rash of DVD ripping I'm into, I expect things to settle down nicely again. When I'm done ripping I can put those stinking DVD disks down in the basement next to the Blu Ray disks, CD roms, SD cards, vinyl records, 8 tracks, reel to reel tapes, film cameras and buggy whips. Oh, yeah. I've got some older OS X DVDs and CDs down there as well.

vitzr
Dec 21, 2011, 11:19 PM
I'm continuing to acclimate & evaluate Lion as it came on my 2011 MBA. In fairness to both Apple & my own preferences, I cannot say it's an upgrade _Yet.

My highly optimized, fast & stable Snow Leopard Macs still rule the roost. I'm so glad I did not compromise my workflow by installing Lion on them.

That said, as I continue to wait and see, perhaps Apple's future revs of Lion will elevate it to where it should be as Apples best work.

As of the present, it seems secondary as they continue their laser like focus on iOS. It's an understandable addiction Apple has developed, due to their insatiable appetite for more fame, more money, more headlines, more influence, power and control.

iToyz saved Apple & introduced them to mass market retailing. Perhaps it's fitting that Lion has less of a roar, so as not to overshadow iOS.

After all Apple did forewarn us. It's Apples Post PC Era now.

sectime
Dec 22, 2011, 09:21 AM
This is why my main desktop is a Win7 and my main laptop in Lion/win7/Backtrack. Also if your not using an android you should be, it is farrrrrrr superior (not locked up and 4g for years now). Understand that no one OS is the best or most progressive.
4g FOR YEARS??? That's a good one...

tigres
Dec 22, 2011, 10:27 AM
As a business user, I cannot use Lion.
I would if I could, and try as I did; SMB, and finder just does not act on my network as SL does- don't ask me why.

So, SL is here to stay for me.

phyrexia
Dec 24, 2011, 09:00 AM
4g FOR YEARS??? That's a good one...

I've been using T-Mobile's HSPA+ network for almost 18 months. You shouldn't jump to conclusions if you are not completely certain of yourself.

----------

As a business user, I cannot use Lion.
I would if I could, and try as I did; SMB, and finder just does not act on my network as SL does- don't ask me why.

So, SL is here to stay for me.

Apple is using a different SMB client in Lion now. They dropped the open source client.

jameslmoser
Dec 25, 2011, 02:46 AM
False argument you do not have to. You may want to, but you certainly do not have to. I didn't want to, as Lion works perfectly fine for me.

I didn't say you have to... You toke my comment out of context. I'm happy your computing needs are simple enough to be satisfied by Lion. But it does not for me or most complaining. The simple fact is that previous versions of os x did. Lion is no upgrade in any sense of the word.

Mackilroy
Dec 25, 2011, 09:33 AM
I didn't say you have to... You toke my comment out of context. I'm happy your computing needs are simple enough to be satisfied by Lion. But it does not for me or most complaining. The simple fact is that previous versions of os x did. Lion is no upgrade in any sense of the word.
You have no idea what my computing needs are, so don't be patronizing. You also don't understand why I said that the way I did. If someone upgrades to Lion but then wants some of the OS behaviors from SL, then yes, they do have to. Or they should have remained on Snow Leopard. There's a good many people who upgrade simply without thinking and then complain *this happened when we went from OS 9 to OS X, from PPC to Intel and now it's happening again. I'm not saying you do this, mind you but a good many people have.

Lion is an upgrade in many senses of the word. Whether you recognize that or not is your own choice.

BeverleyPrice
Dec 26, 2011, 03:43 AM
does it have reader receipt facility and can you create a default stationery?

jameslmoser
Dec 26, 2011, 05:00 AM
You have no idea what my computing needs are, so don't be patronizing. You also don't understand why I said that the way I did. If someone upgrades to Lion but then wants some of the OS behaviors from SL, then yes, they do have to. Or they should have remained on Snow Leopard. There's a good many people who upgrade simply without thinking and then complain –*this happened when we went from OS 9 to OS X, from PPC to Intel – and now it's happening again. I'm not saying you do this, mind you – but a good many people have.

Lion is an upgrade in many senses of the word. Whether you recognize that or not is your own choice.

Can youname one thing that lion provides the user that they couldn't get with snow leopard by some other software? and the fact that it was an option to add is also a benefit of running snow leopard. If you can name any, I bet I can name twice as many things lion took away.

Lion is no upgrade... There is nothing for me to recognize. It Apple's iOS based sales pitch attempt at selling more notebooks to iPhone and iPad users.

Mackilroy
Dec 26, 2011, 10:58 AM
Can youname one thing that lion provides the user that they couldn't get with snow leopard by some other software? and the fact that it was an option to add is also a benefit of running snow leopard. If you can name any, I bet I can name twice as many things lion took away.

Lion is no upgrade... There is nothing for me to recognize. It Apple's iOS based sales pitch attempt at selling more notebooks to iPhone and iPad users.
Why pay for third-party software when it's built into the OS? And it may not be done as well (or better, perhaps, but Apple generally has excellent UI design). Say you're a PC user with an iOS device that you really like, and you're contemplating switching to the Mac. However, you're unsure you'll be able to get used to the way OS X works. Taking cues from iOS such as multitouch gestures (built in, not from third-party sources such as BetterTouchTool) for easy control, Launchpad to find all your apps, Auto Save so you don't lose documents, and Resume so things are where you left them – while long-time users sometimes find those irritating, for someone brand-new to the Mac, they're a Godsend.

And no, you are wrong. Lion is not an iOS-based sales pitch. It's still OS X, but in this case happens to have features borrowed from iOS to make computing easier for new people and switchers. If you happen not to like that, that's your problem.

Try and look at Lion from the perspective of someone new or unfamiliar with the OS. Your viewpoint (and the viewpoint of people who hate or dislike Lion) isn't the only one, and I would wager that it's a smaller one than of those who don't mind, don't care, or do like Lion. If you want to convince Apple to return features you preferred, more power to you – but at the same time, try and walk in someone else's shoes before pretentiously dismissing something.

Joos24
Dec 26, 2011, 11:14 AM
Can youname one thing that lion provides the user that they couldn't get with snow leopard by some other software? and the fact that it was an option to add is also a benefit of running snow leopard. If you can name any, I bet I can name twice as many things lion took away.

Lion is no upgrade... There is nothing for me to recognize. It Apple's iOS based sales pitch attempt at selling more notebooks to iPhone and iPad users.

OMG, are you serious? Why should anyone have to install 3rd party software to do Full Screen, Cut N Paste, Auto Correct, Spotlight Enhancements, etc..? That's stupid for anyone to have to do. By your logic we all might as well have stayed on Tiger or Leopard or even 10.1 since we can add 3rd party software to get the same features as the newer OS. :rolleyes:

I can wholeheartedly name a piece of software you should use in lieu of Lion if Lion bothers you so much, it's called "Windows". Enjoy. :p

jameslmoser
Dec 26, 2011, 06:37 PM
OMG, are you serious? Why should anyone have to install 3rd party software to do Full Screen, Cut N Paste, Auto Correct, Spotlight Enhancements, etc..? That's stupid for anyone to have to do. By your logic we all might as well have stayed on Tiger or Leopard or even 10.1 since we can add 3rd party software to get the same features as the newer OS. :rolleyes:

I can wholeheartedly name a piece of software you should use in lieu of Lion if Lion bothers you so much, it's called "Windows". Enjoy. :p

Again, both of you.. I never said have to, not having to is an option, an added feature.. Unlike with lion it's shoved down your throat if you want it or not. And you guys seriously need to discover open source software. I didn't mean pay for any of it. Apple uses so much open source software to put together their os it's not funny. They didn't write the whole thing.

And you say windows like its a bad thing.. Compared to lion it is not. And I am quite happy with snow leopard. iOS X Lion isn't an upgrade, so snow leopard is still the best version of os x.

----------


Try and look at Lion from the perspective of someone new or unfamiliar with the OS. Your viewpoint (and the viewpoint of people who hate or dislike Lion) isn't the only one, and I would wager that it's a smaller one than of those who don't mind, don't care, or do like Lion. If you want to convince Apple to return features you preferred, more power to you – but at the same time, try and walk in someone else's shoes before pretentiously dismissing something.

I work in IT. I know of no one personally who likes lion over snow leopard, or any one who switched to macs because of lion. I do know people who are going to windows because of lion. Also, since lion has been out about 6 months now and Mac os share in total is declining, and snow leopard is still over 50% of the Mac share while lion is less than 20%, I would like to know what you are basing your wager on.

Nameci
Dec 26, 2011, 06:53 PM
I like Lion, you should know me. Kidding aside. There is no sense ranting here. If you like SL more than Lion, then downgrade. That is all you have to do. It is like picking an orange that you wanted to taste like an apple. It just can't be.

tigres
Dec 26, 2011, 06:59 PM
I like Lion, you should know me. Kidding aside. There is no sense ranting here. If you like SL more than Lion, then downgrade. That is all you have to do. It is like picking an orange that you wanted to taste like an apple. It just can't be.

Can't buy a new MBA and run SL. That's a fail by apple- Lion does NOT play nice in anything to do with windows networks like SL. SL is a perfect companion with my windows domain and Lion is an ass.

Nameci
Dec 26, 2011, 07:02 PM
Then stick with Lion if that serves you best. I have Lion on an old macbook and I don't have any issues connecting on a windows network...

PinkyMacGodess
Dec 26, 2011, 07:04 PM
Oh, I'll also note Snow Leopard got a huge amount of hate after it was released, too. Just in case some of you are thinking of saying, "But Snow Leopard was NEVER this bad!"

YES SIR!

I hated Snow Leopard when it came out. I did a system with it and stuff just started failing all over the place. No printers, no scanner, no practically everything. As Uncle Steve would probably say 'This is a piece of ****!!!'...

But after a total wipe/reinstall on that system, and waiting for the newer distro, the problems went away. Like magic... I waited until .2 was released to upgrade the rest of the systems here. Same for Lion... Just did the last of the upgrades last week. (No issues so far, except for the dial up I posted today)

On HP color laser printers: We had one that we just, and to our credit HP couldn't either, get to work. Ever. Even though the box said 'MAC OSX COMPATIBLE'. The printer evidently can't read... Again, Uncle Steve would say 'What a piece of ****!!!'. Donated it to a church and got a newer one and things have been good...

(I remember yelling at the HP 'technician' at the other end of yet another support call on that older HP color LaserJet... After going through the same **** over and over again. Finally I got 'expedited' to a real tech, not from HP, who said that nothing in that printer was HP (except the label) and that they themselves (wouldn't tell me what company he worked for - odd) had a real problem getting it to work with the Mac too. He suggested that we take it back (too late) or sell it and get a different model. So far we have had no issues (knock on wood) on the replacement, but that earlier one sucked... Evidently many of the earlier HP models were in that 'major suck' category...)

Joos24
Dec 26, 2011, 07:18 PM
Can youname one thing that lion provides the user that they couldn't get with snow leopard by some other software?

Yeah, Cut, Copy N Paste in Finder, especially the way it works in Lion. Windows 7 doesn't even do Cut, Copy N Paste the intuitive way Lion does it. So show me that 3rd party piece of software for Snow Leopard that will do this Mr. Balmer. :p

jameslmoser
Dec 26, 2011, 09:53 PM
Then stick with Lion if that serves you best. I have Lion on an old macbook and I don't have any issues connecting on a windows network...

His point was you can't stick with Snow Leopard if you have to buy a new machine. Its another short coming of how apple handles its OS upgrades, but until now didn't matter to much because their new OSes were improvements... now thats simply not true.

Mackilroy
Dec 26, 2011, 09:59 PM
Again, both of you.. I never said have to, not having to is an option, an added feature.. Unlike with lion it's shoved down your throat if you want it or not. And you guys seriously need to discover open source software. I didn't mean pay for any of it. Apple uses so much open source software to put together their os it's not funny. They didn't write the whole thing.
You can generally not use the features that irritate you. But admitting that would destroy your argument. Since you asked, I don't use much of Apple's software beside iTunes and the Mac App Store. I don't use iCal, Address Book, or Quicktime. Instead, I use options from other sources, such as LibreOffice, VLC, and so on. Why do you keep jumping to conclusions about what other people use?

And you say windows like its a bad thing.. Compared to lion it is not. And I am quite happy with snow leopard. iOS X Lion isn't an upgrade, so snow leopard is still the best version of os x.
Lion is not iOS X, no matter how much you want to pretend otherwise. Your belief that Snow Leopard is the best version of OS X is an opinion, also no matter how much you believe otherwise. SL is certainly a fine OS but it is not the last word in desktop OSes. Neither is Lion. At this point, everything you write reads like you're complaining just to complain.

I work in IT. I know of no one personally who likes lion over snow leopard, or any one who switched to macs because of lion. I do know people who are going to windows because of lion. Also, since lion has been out about 6 months now and Mac os share in total is declining, and snow leopard is still over 50% of the Mac share while lion is less than 20%, I would like to know what you are basing your wager on.
Anecdotal evidence is awesome, isn't it? I know plenty of people who like Lion over Snow Leopard, and more of the people I know switch to OS X from Windows every month.

jameslmoser
Dec 27, 2011, 12:13 AM
Anecdotal evidence is awesome, isn't it? I know plenty of people who like Lion over Snow Leopard, and more of the people I know switch to OS X from Windows every month.

Who is being patronizing now? I didn't provide anecdotal evidence... look it up. The stats I gave are available online.

http://insights.chitika.com/2011/operating-system-market-share-report-november-2011/
http://insights.chitika.com/2011/mac-os-x-lion-fails-to-roar/

Here some more actual evidence to support my "opinion":
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1297875

There are more examples, but I'm not going to bother looking them up for you, you probably won't bother looking anyways.

You can say "why would I buy additional software to do what the new OS provides", which was dumb, because you had to buy the new OS. And if people didn't have the latest version of Office and so many other programs, they probably had to spend money on that too. By your own admission, most of the software you use is opensource free software, so I don't know why you ever brought up that cost arguement.

As far as not using the features that irriate me, thats "a false arguement" as you would say, too! I used spaces, and I use expose, sometimes together, but mostly not. I had those options. I don't any more.

I share files between my windows machines and macs all the time... Lion doesn't want to work with windows... how do I not use that feature??? Hmm?

There are more holes in all of the arguements you provided than there was in any or mine. And yes most of what I say is my opinion, so is what you say your opinion. I started commented on this thread because I agreed with the OP, who also shares my opinion (judging by the threads that have been on going since Lion was released, we are far from the minority). So yes, I will complain. WTH are you still here?

----------

Yeah, Cut, Copy N Paste in Finder, especially the way it works in Lion. Windows 7 doesn't even do Cut, Copy N Paste the intuitive way Lion does it. So show me that 3rd party piece of software for Snow Leopard that will do this Mr. Balmer. :p

I thought this was a joke, but I'm starting to think people are taking this seriously? Its almost an insult to all versions of Mac OS X to even bring this up.

rocknblogger
Dec 27, 2011, 12:21 AM
Yeah, Cut, Copy N Paste in Finder, especially the way it works in Lion. Windows 7 doesn't even do Cut, Copy N Paste the intuitive way Lion does it. So show me that 3rd party piece of software for Snow Leopard that will do this Mr. Balmer. :p

Windows 7: Right click on file select cut/copy, click on other Explorer window right click select paste, done.

Yeah I guess thats not intuitive.

jameslmoser
Dec 27, 2011, 12:31 AM
False argument you do not have to. You may want to, but you certainly do not have to. I didn't want to, as Lion works perfectly fine for me.

Also, if you want to keep using your .Mac, err.. MobileMe,... er iCloud, right now you do HAVE to upgrade to Lion when June comes. If enough people "complain" then maybe Apple will actually do something, like release the fabled 10.6.9. The only reason they haven't already is because its one of the few things Lion has going for it over snow leopard.

Mackilroy
Dec 27, 2011, 12:34 AM
Then you're better off using Apple's feedback page and writing them a well-reasoned, thoughtful note. Complaining about it here is as useful as spitting into the ocean.

jameslmoser
Dec 27, 2011, 01:00 AM
Then you're better off using Apple's feedback page and writing them a well-reasoned, thoughtful note. Complaining about it here is as useful as spitting into the ocean.

Complaining about my complaining some how is more useful? At least my complaining was supportive of the thread topic.

I already gave them feedback...

Mopar
Dec 27, 2011, 01:18 AM
Then you're better off using Apple's feedback page and writing them a well-reasoned, thoughtful note. Complaining about it here is as useful as spitting into the ocean.

Not really. I'd argue that a lot of current and future Mac owners read these forums and will base their next purchasing decision - at least in some part - on what sort of feedback is provided by those who already have experience.

I find other people's "real-world" experiences invaluable when deciding on which bit of hardware or software I'm next likely to buy.

After all, you can complain all you like to Apple, but it doesn't mean they'll fix it . . . Not unless people start voting with their wallets and stop buying a product because so many people are complaining.

Here's a great example of the power of persuasion: Lion uptake has almost flatlined (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/report-mac-os-x-lion-uptake-has-almost-flatlined/16215)

These forums have a lot more influence on the company's decisions than you probably give them credit for. Especially this one, as it's been around for years.

Mackilroy
Dec 27, 2011, 01:46 AM
Here's a great example of the power of persuasion: Lion uptake has almost flatlined (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/report-mac-os-x-lion-uptake-has-almost-flatlined/16215)
Funny, only three days later Lion has doubled in percentage (http://netmarketshare.com/report.aspx?qprid=11&qpaf=&qpcustom=Mac+OS+X+10.7&qpcustomc=2&qpcustomb=0).

I would argue that the average computer user neither knows about these forums nor cares. They're more likely to ask someone they know in person whom they assume knows more about technical issues (which could easily be someone on this forum, which partially supports your point) or to go to a big box store such as Best Buy and try the devices they want in person.

And you certainly can vote with your wallet, but the problem for the people who despise Lion is that their vote is a drop in the bucket. Despite the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands on multiple forums Apple's sales have kept going up (22 percent growth (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/12/26/how-apple-made-history-this-year.aspx) for the Mac unit this year, compared to 2.8 percent for the general PC market). That's pretty good.

jameslmoser
Dec 27, 2011, 03:29 AM
And you certainly can vote with your wallet, but the problem for the people who despise Lion is that their vote is a drop in the bucket.

There you go again, doing what you are telling others not to.

By the source you gave, mac market share is still declining... most be a very BIG drop in that bucket.

Mopar
Dec 27, 2011, 09:49 AM
Funny, only three days later Lion has doubled in percentage (http://netmarketshare.com/report.aspx?qprid=11&qpaf=&qpcustom=Mac+OS+X+10.7&qpcustomc=2&qpcustomb=0).

Even funnier how those stats are exactly the same for the month: http://netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0&qpcustomb=*2&qptimeframe=M

Compared to the quarter: http://netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0&qpcustomb=*2&qptimeframe=Q

Go on - try it yourself. Obviously not the most reliable of figures ;)

Mopar
Dec 27, 2011, 10:01 AM
I would argue that the average computer user neither knows about these forums nor cares. They're more likely to ask someone they know in person whom they assume knows more about technical issues (which could easily be someone on this forum, which partially supports your point) or to go to a big box store such as Best Buy and try the devices they want in person.

Whereas I'd argue that many people looking to buy a new Mac are likely to Google up a bit of research and end up at a site like this (though not necessarily this one - it could be the Apple Support forums, which have just as many people complaining about Lion). I think you underestimate the power of online review and opinion. Everyone is online now. Everyone has access to sites like these. I research almost everything I buy online, and I know a lot of people like me. The number is growing, too. How do you think we all ended up here?

Joos24
Dec 27, 2011, 10:08 AM
I thought this was a joke, but I'm starting to think people are taking this seriously? Its almost an insult to all versions of Mac OS X to even bring this up.

Why don't you quit while you're not ahead. That's why you keep getting rated down so often. No jokes.

Windows 7: Right click on file select cut/copy, click on other Explorer window right click select paste, done.

Yeah I guess thats not intuitive.

Oh, how I just love the lack of knowledge from these armchair technicians. On Lion you select "Copy" then go anywhere in the system and either Paste the object or Move it to that area. All this is done in one sequence. It makes it very proficient and productive for the user when they want to paste the same object in multiple files and/or completely move it. In Windows you can only either Copy n Paste or Cut n Paste, but you don't have the option to do both in one sequence.
Oy Vey, even on a Mac forum we have to be careful not to offend the Windows lovers. :rolleyes:

I never said Windows 7's cut n paste was unintuitive, but Lion does it much better. :p

Mackilroy
Dec 27, 2011, 10:36 AM
Whereas I'd argue that many people looking to buy a new Mac are likely to Google up a bit of research and end up at a site like this (though not necessarily this one - it could be the Apple Support forums, which have just as many people are complaining about Lion). I think you underestimate the power of online review and opinion. Everyone is online now. Everyone has access to sites like these. I research almost everything I buy online, and I know a lot of people like me. The number is growing, too. How do you think we all ended up here?
A good many people end up here or on Apple's forums because they have an axe to grind. Or because they have a genuine problem. Unless you're otherwise interested though, why would the average person sign up for an electronics forum? Even then, wouldn't the average person read a tech review site over a web forum? I know a lot of people in real life who are like you too but they're a niche. They have always been a niche. They may not always be a niche, but they certainly are now.

Martyimac
Dec 27, 2011, 10:37 AM
Just to throw another voice in the mix, I just posted this on the why do users hate lion thread. http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1297083&page=3 post # 73.

Shazaam!
Dec 27, 2011, 11:08 AM
About six years ago Mac OS Tiger was introduced. Some people balked at the changes and stubornly decided to not upgrade. In retrospect, was this a good decision?

jameslmoser
Dec 27, 2011, 12:11 PM
Why don't you quit while you're not ahead. That's why you keep getting rated down so often. No jokes.

I'm rated up more than I'm rated down. Where do you get off saying this?

Mopar
Dec 27, 2011, 01:06 PM
A good many people end up here or on Apple's forums because they have an axe to grind. Or because they have a genuine problem.

Or because they want to read what real people in the real world have to say about a product - not just the professional reviewers.

Unless you're otherwise interested though, why would the average person sign up for an electronics forum?

You don't have to sign up to read most forums.

Even then, wouldn't the average person read a tech review site over a web forum? I know a lot of people in real life who are like you too but they're a niche. They have always been a niche. They may not always be a niche, but they certainly are now.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Have a look at all the comments at the bottom of almost any review site - that tells you online research is not a niche anymore.

This thread has already had 7200 views. That's a lot.


About six years ago Mac OS Tiger was introduced. Some people balked at the changes and stubornly decided to not upgrade. In retrospect, was this a good decision?

I know I skipped OSX10.0 and 10.1 when they first came out more than 10 years ago. I certainly wouldn't recommend upgrading to Lion to anyone who doesn't need to. I'd recommend they wait until it gets sorted first.

linuxcooldude
Dec 27, 2011, 03:15 PM
A good many people end up here or on Apple's forums because they have an axe to grind. Or because they have a genuine problem.

Or because they want to read what real people in the real world have to say about a product - not just the professional reviewers.

Macrumors would be the last place I would come for a product review. Like one poster mentioned, too many people with axes to grind. Can't really get an unbiased opinion from here. Both pro & con about Apple products.

sectime
Dec 28, 2011, 04:24 PM
I've been using T-Mobile's HSPA+ network for almost 18 months. You shouldn't jump to conclusions if you are not completely certain of yourself.

You mean 3.5G, you know that right?? :D

phyrexia
Dec 29, 2011, 01:22 AM
You mean 3.5G, you know that right?? :D

touche! it was still the fastest cell connection in town until Verizon brought LTE in. :)