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MacRumors
Dec 13, 2011, 02:21 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/12/13/american-airlines-receives-faa-approval-for-ipads-in-cockpit/)


The FAA has granted approval to American Airlines to use the iPad during all phases of flight, according to ZDNet (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/apple/faa-approves-ipads-in-the-cockpit-american-airlines-to-start-friday/11865). The first iPad-enabled flights are set to begin Friday on American's Boeing 777 aircraft.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/12/aaipad.jpg

On Friday, American Airlines is the first airline in the world to be fully FAA approved to use iPads during all phases of flight. Pilots will use iPads as electronic chart and digital flight manual readers. The airline will begin iPad operations on B-777 aircraft, and then implement across all other fleets. By using electronic charts and manuals, the safety and efficiency on the flight deck is significantly enhanced. Both the iPad I and the iPad II have been approved for use. Other airlines such as United, Alaska, and UPS are also reviewing this potential, but none have been approved to conduct flight operations in all phases of flight except American. This FAA approval cumulates the results from a 6 month test period whereby American flew thousands of hours with iPads to test and evaluate the product.A number of aviators (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/21/marine-corps-and-civilian-aircrews-replacing-maps-with-ipads/), including those in the Marine Corps and Alaska Airlines, have begun using iPads to reduce the number of paper maps flight crews must carry and fly with. The switch saves paper, and thus fuel, by reducing the weight of flight bags which can weigh several dozen pounds.

Article Link: American Airlines Receives FAA Approval for iPads in Cockpit (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/12/13/american-airlines-receives-faa-approval-for-ipads-in-cockpit/)



PlaceofDis
Dec 13, 2011, 02:23 PM
this is awesome. as someone who is working on entering the aviation industry, having iPads in the cockpit will only help pilots in so many ways. glad to see it being approved.

*LTD*
Dec 13, 2011, 02:26 PM
Wasn't there someone around here who said these things were just gimmicks?

ritsard
Dec 13, 2011, 02:31 PM
Pilots can now checkin using their favorite social network haha

Drunken Master
Dec 13, 2011, 02:32 PM
As long as they don't play Words with Friends!

(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

nagromme
Dec 13, 2011, 02:39 PM
Where can I get that awesome iPad dock that looks like a commercial airplane cockpit?

(P.S. Is that pilot flying in socks? I thought the iPad would allow time for things like shoes.)

Shrink
Dec 13, 2011, 02:40 PM
VERY DANGEROUS!!!

If there is an atomic explosion nearby, the electromagnetic pulse will knock out the iPads and, boy, will they be in trouble then.:eek:


:rolleyes: :p

Eauboy
Dec 13, 2011, 02:43 PM
I totally did not know that airplanes had tillers.

mp0890
Dec 13, 2011, 02:43 PM
Great...so I can now use mine during takeoff and landing....right?

Alexs5
Dec 13, 2011, 02:47 PM
Didn't American Airlines filed for bankruptcy?.... and they can afford ipads? lol

Peace
Dec 13, 2011, 02:47 PM
Cool. They can now navigate the planes to another air carrier since they are going bankrupt.

rickdollar
Dec 13, 2011, 02:50 PM
Wasn't there someone around here who said these things were just gimmicks?

Yeah, you know, gimmicks. Like digital photography.

Darreners
Dec 13, 2011, 02:50 PM
Didn't they just go out of business?

kdarling
Dec 13, 2011, 02:55 PM
The FAA has granted approval to American Airlines to use the iPad during all phases of flight...

My question is, why was American so cheap the past decade that they had to wait until a less expensive tablet came along.

Military, charter and private pilots have been using EFBs since the mid-1990s, and tablets since about 2000. (I know, because I used one back then for flight planning and charts.)

The switch saves paper, and thus fuel, by reducing the weight of flight bags which can weigh several dozen pounds.

Depends on how many backup paper sets they will now keep in the aircraft. And if every pilot only flies planes equipped with an iPad, and is thus able (and willing) to leave his paper behind.

I would also personally note that although it's often boring to keep paper updated, something can be said for being forced to notice that something has changed about an airport you frequent.

PS. I do love the spot they made to mount them!

TheMirrorsTruth
Dec 13, 2011, 03:14 PM
iPod is to CD wallet as iPad is to flight bag (i.e. charts, maps, manuals, etc)

ritsard
Dec 13, 2011, 03:24 PM
I thought the ipad used the flight control app to fly the plane hehe jk :)

Cereal
Dec 13, 2011, 03:46 PM
I totally did not know that airplanes had tillers.

You know, I was thinking the same thing but then realized it might be the steering mechanism on large aircraft. A little google search and wala - a steerable nose wheel!

Here's a picture along with the empty space for an iPad.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/pilotboy523/100_1862_ReallySM.jpg

JonneyGee
Dec 13, 2011, 03:47 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/9A405)

Great...so I can now use mine during takeoff and landing....right?

THIS. The pilot can use an iPad whenever but if I pull one out I'm a safety risk? The FAA is so full of it...

morespce54
Dec 13, 2011, 04:03 PM
[Insert joke about pilots playing "FlightControl" here]

Cjm1
Dec 13, 2011, 04:07 PM
Didn't they just go bust? and yet there spending thousands on iPads. how people spend there money these days!

People say money is what makes the world go round, but in this day and age its whats stopping it!

*LTD*
Dec 13, 2011, 04:13 PM
Didn't they just go bust? and yet there spending thousands on iPads. how people spend there money these days!

People say money is what makes the world go round, but in this day and age its whats stopping it!

The full story:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/30/us-americanairlines-idUSTRE7AS0T220111130

Not quite "bust", but not quite rosy, either.

kdarling
Dec 13, 2011, 04:18 PM
THIS. The pilot can use an iPad whenever but if I pull one out I'm a safety risk? The FAA is so full of it...

This is one specific aircraft model that has been tested with two iPads in known locations.

Another model and/or one with more iPads around, is not the same setup and hasn't been tested.

For example, during recent testing for in-flight WiFi service, it was found that one particular Boeing model's cockpit displays could go blank if the WiFi power cranked up with more users.

That's the kind of situation that the FAA wants to avoid... and as a passenger with my family aboard, so do I.

Edit: I bet they added another item to their preflight checklist: make sure cockpit iPads are in Airplane Mode! No WiFi, no Bluetooth radios.

hortod1
Dec 13, 2011, 04:38 PM
I totally did not know that airplanes had tillers.

The tiller is for nose-wheel steering while on the ground during taxi.

hob
Dec 13, 2011, 04:56 PM
Isn't it crazy that it took :apple: to come along with the iPad before air crews through "we could save fuel by not carrying all this paper". I'm amazed terminals weren't in use 5 years ago for this sort of thing...!

Machoo
Dec 13, 2011, 05:44 PM
Well I'm pretty stoked about this. As a private pilot I am using my ipad for preflight, weather, and charts. It has been working very well. I have only tested it in the simulator. I wanted to make sure it works as it should and that I feel comfortable with it. After several flights I am sold big time! It saves so much time. It is more than paper savings for me, and I will still fly with paper backup so I will not even realize that savings. I am most happy about the way it is so easy to access information very quickly without juggling papers, charts, or books in the cockpit. Just one device strapped to your leg. My first flight with it in the cockpit is this weekend!

Gemütlichkeit
Dec 13, 2011, 08:11 PM
Airlines still won't let you use electronics during take off and landings.

isaacdull
Dec 13, 2011, 08:55 PM
But what sucks is they have to turn it off within ten thousand feet of landing and takeoff.

Spencie
Dec 13, 2011, 10:18 PM
Amazing. Hope to see something saved because of the use of iPad. That would be awesome

----------

But what sucks is they have to turn it off within ten thousand feet of landing and takeoff.

Haha. Thats a problem...

iVoid
Dec 14, 2011, 12:39 AM
I guess American can't force people to turn off their iPads now. :)

But your pilots are using them RIGHT NEXT TO THEW CONTROLS, how can my playing words with friends out here hurt anything?

theBB
Dec 14, 2011, 02:50 AM
Paper flight plans do not run out of battery and they are very unlikely to freeze on you.

justperry
Dec 14, 2011, 03:52 AM
Paper flight plans do not run out of battery and they are very unlikely to freeze on you.

Oh, and airplanes fly without juice:rolleyes:
(Just plug it in)
Do iPads crash:confused:
(Barely)

adder7712
Dec 14, 2011, 04:02 AM
An EFB solution from Jeppesen is already available for the Boeing 777 and is available for factory install. In non EFB (which includes the product below and iPads), the space is occupied by paper charts.
http://jeppesen.com/corporate/images/commercialaviation/product_services/ca-efb-product.jpg

Oh yeah, the tiller is for ground steering.

farleysmaster
Dec 14, 2011, 04:21 AM
Aren't electronics banned during take offs and landings because they want everyone to be alert and not miss safety announcements?

JakeK
Dec 14, 2011, 05:03 AM
Aren't electronics banned during take offs and landings because they want everyone to be alert and not miss safety announcements?

YES. Sleeping and looking out of the window are forbidden during that time for the same reason.

kdarling
Dec 14, 2011, 06:12 AM
The tiller is for nose-wheel steering while on the ground during taxi.

Just to be clear to non-pilots, it's usually the big airplanes that have tillers.

Small aircraft usually steer with the rudder pedals, either via propeller thrust or linkage to the nose wheel. Other steering variations also exist, even a link to the yoke on planes trying to be like cars.

Isn't it crazy that it took :apple: to come along with the iPad before air crews through "we could save fuel by not carrying all this paper". I'm amazed terminals weren't in use 5 years ago for this sort of thing...!

As noted above, there have been computers and tablets in the cockpit for over a decade. That's where the FAA certification rules came from.

A big reason this makes news now is because it's Apple.

Well I'm pretty stoked about this. As a private pilot I am using my ipad for preflight, weather, and charts. (..) Just one device strapped to your leg. My first flight with it in the cockpit is this weekend!

Hey, what are you using for a leg strap mount?

paj
Dec 14, 2011, 07:49 AM
Well I'm pretty stoked about this. As a private pilot I am using my ipad for preflight, weather, and charts. It has been working very well. I have only tested it in the simulator. I wanted to make sure it works as it should and that I feel comfortable with it. After several flights I am sold big time! It saves so much time. It is more than paper savings for me, and I will still fly with paper backup so I will not even realize that savings. I am most happy about the way it is so easy to access information very quickly without juggling papers, charts, or books in the cockpit. Just one device strapped to your leg. My first flight with it in the cockpit is this weekend!

As a private pilot, you'll be operating under part 91. FAA approval is not required to use any kind of electronic EFB. The iPad was also approved for part 135 operators some time ago.

yg17
Dec 14, 2011, 08:13 AM
Aren't electronics banned during take offs and landings because they want everyone to be alert and not miss safety announcements?

It's not like anyone pays attention to those things anyways. If you fly enough, you've had the whole thing memorized.

PracticalMac
Dec 14, 2011, 09:30 AM
But what sucks is they have to turn it off within ten thousand feet of landing and takeoff.

Negative.
FAA now approves it for use in ALL PHASES of flight, from the moment they turn power on in aircraft, to when they turn it off, on all the time.


Here is a thread on all the news and discussion on iPad in airplanes. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1219312)

----------


Here's a picture along with the empty space for an iPad.

Image (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/pilotboy523/100_1862_ReallySM.jpg)

Space is to hold charts and plates, which happens to be just about right size for iPad.

It will have to be modified to more securely hold the iPad, and power connection.

PracticalMac
Dec 14, 2011, 09:43 AM
My question is, why was American so cheap the past decade that they had to wait until a less expensive tablet came along.

Military, charter and private pilots have been using EFBs since the mid-1990s, and tablets since about 2000. (I know, because I used one back then for flight planning and charts.)

....

I would also personally note that although it's often boring to keep paper updated, something can be said for being forced to notice that something has changed about an airport you frequent.



More like too expensive to use custom EFB's
It is not just the hardware, but getting FAA approval, and finally TRAINING. All that could run into the thousands, and that is not including repairs and service (chart updates).

The COTS approach of mass market device that the pilots may already have in their house and are familiar with does have substantial savings in every metric.

....
I think it is a very silly argument that a pilot would see changes between paper charts. I never do, and cant look at old ones because they are long gone.
Conversely, and EFB *can* do this far, far better then the best pilot!
The digital plate can have the ability to hold both plates (old and new) with notes so pilot can much more easily see the changes.

After a few years of experience, one day 90% of paper will vanish from airline cockpits.

David Webb
Dec 14, 2011, 09:44 AM
British Airline Flybe are also to go all iPad. I believe it is currently being trialled and should be rolled out in the next few months.

John.B
Dec 14, 2011, 09:48 AM
I'd hope Apple will make them pay cash, on the barrelhead:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/30/us-americanairlines-idUSTRE7AS0T220111130

AA will screw over their creditors, suppliers, and employees with a bankruptcy filing, but they have money for a planeload of iPads? WTF? Who is the judge overseeing this?

kdarling
Dec 14, 2011, 01:13 PM
More like too expensive to use custom EFB's

I'm not necessarily talking about custom EFBs. Publicly available EFB software for regular tablets has been around for at least a decade, if not longer. Heck, charter carriers have been using PCs since 1995 or so, and FedEx first deployed a COTS laptop in 1991.

It is not just the hardware, but getting FAA approval, and finally TRAINING. All that could run into the thousands, and that is not including repairs and service (chart updates).

All of those criteria applied to the iPad as well. It had to go through the exact same certification process as any other COTS computer.

Again, the main thing "new" here is that Apple happens to be the maker.

I think it is a very silly argument that a pilot would see changes between paper charts. I never do, and cant look at old ones because they are long gone.

Why are the old ones "long gone" when you're replacing them? And if you're not noticing changes, then you're probably not complying with the primary directive to have "all available information" before flying :)

Personally I found it quite handy to notice that there's a new obstacle is in a landing path. But yeah, a lot of pilots just mass replace them and depend on NOTAMs if they exist.

Conversely, and EFB *can* do this far, far better then the best pilot!
The digital plate can have the ability to hold both plates (old and new) with notes so pilot can much more easily see the changes.

I agree, although I don't think this is being done yet.

After a few years of experience, one day 90% of paper will vanish from airline cockpits.

Perhaps one day.

It hasn't happened so far in the 20 some years since pilots started using portable computers in the cockpit.

David Webb
Dec 14, 2011, 01:56 PM
Why are the old ones "long gone" when you're replacing them? And if you're not noticing changes, then you're probably not complying with the primary directive to have "all available information" before flying

Personally I found it quite handy to notice that there's a new obstacle is in a landing path. But yeah, a lot of pilots just mass replace them and depend on NOTAMs if they exist.


Most airlines (certainly the one i fly for) have the plates changed by a 3rd party company. Whenever they need updating you can land at an airport you are met by someone who quickly changes all the plates in one quick go, it can take 10mins and the old ones are gone for good. But saying that we use Jeppesen plates and at the very bottom of each page any changes are listed. So no big deal.

vincenz
Dec 14, 2011, 03:09 PM
"Pilots will use iPads as electronic chart and digital flight manual readers and to play Angry Birds."


There, I fixed it.

Pigumon
Dec 14, 2011, 04:10 PM
I think you got it backwards, AA is bankrupt BECAUSE they bought iPads for everyone. HAW HAW :D

Truffy
Dec 15, 2011, 03:42 AM
Great...so I can now use mine during takeoff and landing....right?
This...
Edit: I bet they added another item to their preflight checklist: make sure cockpit iPads are in Airplane Mode! No WiFi, no Bluetooth radios.
The airlines can limit the use of wifi/GSM/BT for their pilots, but going through the cabins checking that all iPads/iWhatevers are also restricted puts too much onus on the flight attendants during the pre-flight/-landing checks.
Didn't American Airlines filed for bankruptcy?.... and they can afford ipads? lol
Why do you think they filed for bankruptcy protection? :p
Paper flight plans do not run out of battery and they are very unlikely to freeze on you.
This is what worries me! :(

kdarling
Dec 15, 2011, 08:18 AM
FAA now approves it for use in ALL PHASES of flight, from the moment they turn power on in aircraft, to when they turn it off, on all the time.

The iPad was approved that way for American Airlines, at least. It doesn't apply to any carrier that hasn't gone through its own certification process.

According to the relevant AC, it looks like each carrier has to first spend six months testing out the devices in real life usage, plus they have to certify non-interference with the aircraft models involved... among other things like crew training and observation, and perhaps getting an STC for mounting gear.

Then they still have to carry backup paper for at least a while, just in case both iPads fail. One way around that requirement is to use two different types of tablets, e.g. one iPad, one Android. That hopefully insures that both will not fail for the same software glitch at the same time. (Unless it's a global WebKit bug!)

iSellMyiPhone
Dec 15, 2011, 08:58 AM
Do the pilots have to turn the iPad off during takeoff, landing, and taxi? Should have thought that one thru FAA ;)

jzuena
Dec 15, 2011, 12:10 PM
I guess American can't force people to turn off their iPads now. :)

But your pilots are using them RIGHT NEXT TO THEW CONTROLS, how can my playing words with friends out here hurt anything?

Because you are probably closer to the antennas than the flight crew and that's whats really important when it comes to interference? The displays in a glass cockpit are going to be well shielded; the GPS, UHF and VHF antennas -- which are spread out along the body of the plane so that they won't interfere with each other -- not so much. If you happen to be in the seat right above/below one, you could interfere and the pilots won't have any way of quickly troubleshooting the problem.

Do the pilots have to turn the iPad off during takeoff, landing, and taxi? Should have thought that one thru FAA ;)

I'm pretty sure this was covered several times in the thread. AA has FAA certification to allow the flight crew to continuously run their iPads from startup to shutdown.

PracticalMac
Dec 15, 2011, 01:09 PM
The iPad was approved that way for American Airlines, at least. It doesn't apply to any carrier that hasn't gone through its own certification process.

According to the relevant AC, it looks like each carrier has to first spend six months testing out the devices in real life usage, plus they have to certify non-interference with the aircraft models involved... among other things like crew training and observation, and perhaps getting an STC for mounting gear.

Then they still have to carry backup paper for at least a while, just in case both iPads fail. One way around that requirement is to use two different types of tablets, e.g. one iPad, one Android. That hopefully insures that both will not fail for the same software glitch at the same time. (Unless it's a global WebKit bug!)

Granted there is still a blizzard of paperwork to go though (you know the old axiom about weight), but like a From 337, once approved by FAA it can be a boiler plate to apply to all same model aircraft.
Procedures too.

My FAR's is rusty, but I think the hardware options are: STC, 337, and kits sold by the aircraft maker (cant recall if those need STC or 337).
Then again if it is not a permanent installation but snaps into place somehow, none of those are required (not considered part of aircraft).

I seriously doubt any airline will test both platforms, becuase it simply means double the work, and for Android it could mean even more concerning the different flavors of OS. The highly controlled iOS environment, highly supported hardware, reputation, give iPad a big advantage.

Tablet computers, like EFB's, where in development for decades, but for many reasons neither found the sweet point of cost/performance.

TechKnow
Dec 15, 2011, 02:43 PM
Has anyone told Alex Baldwin about this? :D

Parsec
Dec 15, 2011, 02:48 PM
VERY DANGEROUS!!!

If there is an atomic explosion nearby, the electromagnetic pulse will knock out the iPads and, boy, will they be in trouble then.:eek:


:rolleyes: :p

I think...if there's a nuclear explosion nearby, you'd be in trouble anyways! If the plane is far enough to survive the shockwave, it will lose most of it's electronics. To include the control logic for the control surfaces. There is a trend to move towards fiberglass for data-transfer which is not affected by EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse), but there is still logic necessary to translate the received data. If it is not protected enough, the plane will lose control. The only aircraft that I know of that is EMP-proof is the Eurocopter Tigre gunship. I would imagine that modern aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 are/will be EMP-proof. I would be disappointed if they weren't.

Parsec
Dec 15, 2011, 03:11 PM
My question is, why was American so cheap the past decade that they had to wait until a less expensive tablet came along.

Military, charter and private pilots have been using EFBs since the mid-1990s, and tablets since about 2000. (I know, because I used one back then for flight planning and charts.)

The difference I believe lies in the fact that it is now approved to be used as the primary and sole chart reference. Leaving behind the paper, which wasn't allowed earlier. If you left your paper behind before, you were doing so illegally (though I do understand why you would have).

Depends on how many backup paper sets they will now keep in the aircraft. And if every pilot only flies planes equipped with an iPad, and is thus able (and willing) to leave his paper behind.

I would also personally note that although it's often boring to keep paper updated, something can be said for being forced to notice that something has changed about an airport you frequent.

I've done tons of Jeppesen updates myself and I loathed it. Your point is partially valid in that you need to keep up to date on changes to approaches you use. However, far too often, I've encountered errors in the kit. Mainly people performing updates and making mistakes. I'm sure, although I did my best not to, I made some too. The chance to make a mistake is now liminated to only one source (Jeppesen). The app will warn you when you need to update and it will update easily.

There safety is improved, fuel economy (though fractional) is improved. The upgrade will pay for itself, both financially and environmentally (production cost measured as energy).

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Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/9A405)



THIS. The pilot can use an iPad whenever but if I pull one out I'm a safety risk? The FAA is so full of it...

This iPad has been tested (I'm sure) for interference with on-board systems. Since it is probably unmodified, it is safe to assume that the use of an iPad2 by passengers has no effect either, however, this cannot be said (yet) for other tablets. Since cabin crew cannot oversee the cabin to selectively target passengers to stow away their electronic devices, the rule (rightfully so) is to generalize all devices during take-off and landing.

kdarling
Dec 15, 2011, 03:32 PM
The difference I believe lies in the fact that it is now approved to be used as the primary and sole chart reference. Leaving behind the paper, which wasn't allowed earlier.

I doubt that any carrier will do so for a while yet. The liability in the case of a crash... man.

I mean, the only practical way, without paper, to get around a failure of all EFBs is to print out new info from a fax or backup storage device.

You can imagine the extra workload finding and printing the right documents during an emergency, and that's assuming the printing device even works.

Imagine trying to print out emergency ditching instructions when your engines fail and all you have is a ram generator for a few instruments... and you've got just moments to do it. Asking for a company fax sure won't cut it.

Or finding and printing out an approach chart, etc. You can imagine even more scenarios where a paperless cockpit would be an invitation to disaster.

Sure, losing both EFBs is a "remote possibility", but then, doesn't that exactly describe one of the chain of events in almost every airplane crash?

Regards.

PracticalMac
Dec 15, 2011, 03:58 PM
I'm not necessarily talking about custom EFBs. Publicly available EFB software for regular tablets has been around for at least a decade, if not longer. Heck, charter carriers have been using PCs since 1995 or so, and FedEx first deployed a COTS laptop in 1991.


All of those criteria applied to the iPad as well. It had to go through the exact same certification process as any other COTS computer.

Again, the main thing "new" here is that Apple happens to be the maker.


Why are the old ones "long gone" when you're replacing them? And if you're not noticing changes, then you're probably not complying with the primary directive to have "all available information" before flying :)

Personally I found it quite handy to notice that there's a new obstacle is in a landing path. But yeah, a lot of pilots just mass replace them and depend on NOTAMs if they exist.

I agree, although I don't think this is being done yet.

Perhaps one day.

It hasn't happened so far in the 20 some years since pilots started using portable computers in the cockpit.

I have seen some of those past EFB's and they where never a pretty picture.
Laptops where still large, bulky, possibly heavy, and rarely had battery life longer then 3 hours. Those that used Palm or WinCE/PocketPC OS, some with GPS, had a small screen and limited memory (and battery) but was certainly easier to work with then laptops. In short the hardware was not ideal.

Of course this is hind sight but the magic formula was light weight (and thin), long battery life, GPS, big screen, with gobs of memory and a powerful CPU to do it all.
Jobs made it happen, and it happens to be great for a whole bunch of tasks.


Changes to chart or plate are not easy to see sometimes, and it is better to simply review the entire object again then hunt for changes.

The problem with EFB's is that they are simply digital pictures (.jpg's) of the paper ones!
Why can't it be fully interactive, showing all shorts of info on request, even laying over the wind direction and speed, pattern alt, etc? Those software developers are not really thinking out of the box, are they. I basically see digitizing of traditional flight planning, not planning based on origin -> destination.

For example:
2 weeks ago I did a 8 hour flight, and one of the things I noticed is no range calculation based on power settings. For that I need to open my OM and read up a crude table on % power vs GPH.
Another item was Winds Aloft. I sent a lot of time considering what alt and direction I should fly to take the most advantage of that bit of info. It would be nice if it suggested the course.
ForeFligth and MyCast did not have notes on MOA either (that I found), had to look in sectional to find that info.
Or for that matter what freq I need to use.

Much can be done.

----------


Imagine trying to print out emergency ditching instructions when your engines fail and all you have is a ram generator for a few instruments... and you've got just moments to do it. Asking for a company fax sure won't cut it.

Or finding and printing out an approach chart, etc. You can imagine even more scenarios where a paperless cockpit would be an invitation to disaster.

Sure, losing both EFBs is a "remote possibility", but then, doesn't that exactly describe one of the chain of events in almost every airplane crash?


I think you are over reacting, and not seeing alternatives.

Emergency will always have to be on paper, but not routine becuase its not an emergency!

And why print paper in cockpit? A set for the flight with emergency alternatives can be printed at the airport to take in cockpit.

kdarling
Dec 15, 2011, 04:34 PM
I have seen some of those past EFB's and they where never a pretty picture.

*grin* Everything is relative. It was state of the art at the time. Heck, ten years from now, the current iPad will be seen as ridiculously slow and heavy compared to future paper thin displays or holographic projections or direct retina video injection :)

Of course this is hind sight but the magic formula was light weight (and thin), long battery life, GPS, big screen, with gobs of memory and a powerful CPU to do it all.

At the time, that's what we thought we had, compared to the previous ... nothing :)

I used a convertible tablet with a serial port GPS puck. The laptop was plugged into the lighter socket. Some of my friends were using Windows CE PDAs. Again, it was all state of the art at the time, just as the iPad is now, but nothing stays that way.

Changes to chart or plate are not easy to see sometimes, and it is better to simply review the entire object again then hunt for changes.

Ah. My point was that just knowing there was a change... because of having to replace a known airport... heightened my awareness.

Why can't it be fully interactive, showing all shorts of info on request, even laying over the wind direction and speed, pattern alt, etc?
I totally agree. Right now, the FAA seems a bit leery of the idea of too much info overloading the user. Younger administrators will change that :)

And why print paper in cockpit? A set for the flight with emergency alternatives can be printed at the airport to take in cockpit.

Edit: You're right and now I remember why I wrote that. It was because I misread the FAA's recommendation to upload emergency instructions to the cockpit to cover dead EFBs. I thought they meant during the emergency, but now I realize they meant before take-off as you suggested. Sigh. Getting old! :)

In any case, the upshot is that it appears there will always be a paper backup around... just perhaps a lot less of it at one time.

Shrink
Dec 15, 2011, 04:50 PM
I think...if there's a nuclear explosion nearby, you'd be in trouble anyways! If the plane is far enough to survive the shockwave, it will lose most of it's electronics. To include the control logic for the control surfaces. There is a trend to move towards fiberglass for data-transfer which is not affected by EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse), but there is still logic necessary to translate the received data. If it is not protected enough, the plane will lose control. The only aircraft that I know of that is EMP-proof is the Eurocopter Tigre gunship. I would imagine that modern aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 are/will be EMP-proof. I would be disappointed if they weren't.

You gave an interesting and informative answer to my silly joke.

I put enough smilies in the post to make clear it was a joke, but thanks for the cogent reply to my jest.:D

Parsec
Dec 16, 2011, 03:40 PM
You gave an interesting and informative answer to my silly joke.

I put enough smilies in the post to make clear it was a joke, but thanks for the cogent reply to my jest.:D

Yes, despite that you made a joke, I'm sure many people out there do come to wonder whether or not it is a true statement. Had I not acquired more knowledge, I may have been one of them. ;)

Parsec
Dec 16, 2011, 04:06 PM
Some things I've noticed in the posts:

Dead battery: Very unlikely. iPad will be powered (charged) in the cockpit. If that system fails, you will have 10 hours of use. If you keep it standy most of the flight, it will have ample juice for any commercial flight to complete from start to finish.

Emergency: I think that this type of EFB can excel for in-flight emergency situations. Selecting nearest suitable airport for instance (may need software updates/revisions). Or continuously depicting the name, direction and distance to nearest suitable emergency airport.

I would much rather be in an emergency situation where I don't have to go and look into the Jeppesen kit (thousands of pages for one region) to try and find at the info and approaches of the nearest suitable emergency field.

Also, if I'd have to look into the flight-manual or Minimum Equipment List (MEL) to find help to deal with an emergency, I'd much rather do that on an electronic device due to the ability to search by keywords and use links within the document or multiple documents to get to the right information quickly. Didn't read about this feature, but I assume they already have it implemented or will have it in due time.

Pattern altitude: This news was pertaining the IFR Jeppesen kit. While flying IFR, pattern altitude is merely a nice to know item in my opinion.

JPEG scans: This app isn't merely a scanned version of the plates themselves. They are vector-graphic based depictions. So, no matter how far you zoom in, the lines/curves will still be sharp and crisp.

Extra info: The display of real-time info like wind-vector etc, would require an internet connection or connection to on-board systems other than just electric power. The internet connection would require to be one that will have restrictions to achieve certification as it may not come from an internet-source that is shared by the passengers. You don't want some hacker in the back, or hacked in through the internet being able to feed the plane with erroneous info.

The second source of information (from on-board systems) makes certification more difficult too (more expensive).

An internet connection, or other networked connection would give more interesting possibilities like real-time display of aircraft in a certain region. No need to have a radar for that then (most planes have a weather-radar only, if the even have that). It would be possible to display actual location of dangerous weather, predicted location of dangerous weather and stuff like that.

paj
Dec 16, 2011, 04:59 PM
Another item was Winds Aloft. I sent a lot of time considering what alt and direction I should fly to take the most advantage of that bit of info. It would be nice if it suggested the course.
ForeFligth and MyCast did not have notes on MOA either (that I found), had to look in sectional to find that info.
Or for that matter what freq I need to use.

Foreflight does show MOA and other SFOs by simply tapping and holding within the area. Here's a screenshot showing weather, winds aloft and the Gamecock MOA information. Tapping the field show additional information, including frequencies where applicable.

paj
Dec 16, 2011, 05:07 PM
JPEG scans: This app isn't merely a scanned version of the plates themselves. They are vector-graphic based depictions. So, no matter how far you zoom in, the lines/curves will still be sharp and crisp.
To be fair, the 'plates' in the Jepp app are not vector depictions... although they are of high enough resolution for it not to matter. The enroute charts, however, are indeed vector graphics and as you zoom in, more detail appears.

All the other apps that use NOS charts (Foreflight, Garmin Pilot My-Cast, WingX, etc) use high resolution scans for both charts and approach plates.

kdarling
Dec 16, 2011, 09:05 PM
Some things I've noticed in the posts:

Dead battery: Very unlikely. iPad will be powered (charged) in the cockpit. If that system fails, you will have 10 hours of use. If you keep it standy most of the flight, it will have ample juice for any commercial flight to complete from start to finish.

Never say never. In fact, I'd say it's a good probability. Consider:

If, as with some other airlines, the iPads are handed out to each pilot, then yes a crew could easily board with dead iPads, plug them in, then need them soon afterwards. If the power source fails (or you have to turn if off because of say, smoke in the cockpit), then they'll run out of juice much quicker.

Emergency: I think that this type of EFB can excel for in-flight emergency situations. Selecting nearest suitable airport for instance (may need software updates/revisions). Or continuously depicting the name, direction and distance to nearest suitable emergency airport.

Not in this case of course, since they're mostly being used as e-books with no inputs. Also, those are Type B applications and I'm not sure they're certified for those yet. Have to look.

Hmm. A pilot might be smart to bring their own personal device onboard in case of emergency. As you know, thousands of private pilots use personal computers and handhelds for what you're talking about, all the time. It's like the way I always carried my own handheld aviation transceiver with localizer, just in case. You can never have too many backups :)

Parsec
Dec 17, 2011, 06:22 AM
Yes, it would be smart to bring your own device (if they have an iPad at least). However, it is questionable that Jeppesen will allow pilots to have an updated subscription on their personal devices as well. I'm sure they'll make the airlines pay for that, which I doubt they will (those subscriptions are not cheap), unless they successfully negotiate that during the purchase of such a mass-license.

I just thought of another consideration: exploding batteries. It's happened before in mobile devices. Also with iPods, iPhones and iPhone 4(S)s. That could become nasty (possible hot battery fluids/shattered glass spraying through the cockpit, fire-hazard, startling the pilot(s) with the bang).

PracticalMac
Dec 17, 2011, 09:12 AM
*grin* Everything is relative. It was state of the art at the time. Heck, ten years from now, the current iPad will be seen as ridiculously slow and heavy compared to future paper thin displays or holographic projections or direct retina video injection :)
At the time, that's what we thought we had, compared to the previous ... nothing :)
I used a convertible tablet with a serial port GPS puck. The laptop was plugged into the lighter socket. Some of my friends were using Windows CE PDAs. Again, it was all state of the art at the time, just as the iPad is now, but nothing stays that way.


Yes, never does, but the iPad and other tabs finally hit the magic point of ideal hardware. Of course it will get better, but now we have something affordable, easy to use, and even MORE useful when not in airplane!
(Angry Birds as home!! yuk yuk yuk)

PS, I applaud you pioneers of early EFB's. At the very least it created a foundation of developers and designers ready to seize the moment.


I totally agree. Right now, the FAA seems a bit leery of the idea of too much info overloading the user. Younger administrators will change that :)

Edit: You're right and now I remember why I wrote that. It was because I misread the FAA's recommendation to upload emergency instructions to the cockpit to cover dead EFBs. I thought they meant during the emergency, but now I realize they meant before take-off as you suggested. Sigh. Getting old! :)

In any case, the upshot is that it appears there will always be a paper backup around... just perhaps a lot less of it at one time.

We all get OMS, welcome to the club!
(OMS Old Man Syndrome) (Least you have a beautiful woman to make you forget!)


As to FAA fear of "Info Overload", simple:
Keep the extra info out of sight (plate looks same as paper version) until asked for (button in corner or something), just like Apple does. Ease the transition to new features as on-call, then as people get used to it make it standard.

jane doe
Dec 20, 2011, 04:53 PM
The FAAs entire view is changing on these devices, more and more training is also relying on using tablets and computers.

AA using the iPads are just the start. And by the way, its not like they are using generic data or charts, they are using the same Jeppesen charts they have always used. The same that are provided to the US Government for navigation.

----------

this is awesome. as someone who is working on entering the aviation industry, having iPads in the cockpit will only help pilots in so many ways. glad to see it being approved.

I would run, Don't walk away from the aviation industry...

kasei
Dec 20, 2011, 05:27 PM
I don't get why people are so anal about turning off their electronic devices for 10 - 20s minutes. It's like the rule don't apply to everyone and they are entitled despite the risk. If it means the plane will stay in the air longer if you turn your damn phone, iPad, laptop, iPod, Zune or whatever off then, YEAH turn it off.

dmr727
Dec 20, 2011, 06:57 PM
I would run, Don't walk away from the aviation industry...

PoD is being smarter than most about this!

kdarling
Dec 20, 2011, 08:16 PM
AA using the iPads are just the start. And by the way, its not like they are using generic data or charts, they are using the same Jeppesen charts they have always used. The same that are provided to the US Government for navigation.

Jeppesen charts and NACO (US government) charts are not the same thing.

Parsec
Dec 21, 2011, 10:43 AM
Jeppesen charts and NACO (US government) charts are not the same thing.

You are right. I know that the USAF prohibits the use of Jeppesen charts. They have their own DoD FLIP (FLight Information Publication). Only in the absence of an approach of their own, one may request to use a Jeppesen chart which will be reviewed by some kind of board and give the go, if the procedure meets Dod criteria.

If I remember correctly, the USArmy does use Jeppesen, at least sometimes. I'm not sure about the USNavy.

eNcrypTioN
Dec 21, 2011, 12:28 PM
Seems logical. Most things these days are going digital. I'm sure newspapers will eventually go digital so why not everything else.