Apple Q4 Results and Notes

[MacRumors]

Apple webcast (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/earningsq402/) their Q4 2002 Financial Results:

Press Release (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/oct/16earnings.html): Apple® today announced financial results for its fiscal 2002 fourth quarter ended September 28, 2002. For the quarter, the Company posted a net loss of $45 million, or $.13 per share. These results compare to a net profit of $66 million, or $.19 per diluted share, in the year-ago quarter. Revenues for the quarter were $1.44 billion, flat with the year ago quarter, and gross margins were 26.4 percent, down from 30.1 percent in the year-ago quarter. International sales accounted for 35 percent of the quarter’s revenues.

MacNN provides (http://www.macnn.com/news.php?id=17021) detailed notes from the conference call, noting that PowerBook and PowerMac sales are sluggish.

[bobindashadows]

Hmm... I read at i think www.apple-x.net that Apple had a bunch of reasons as to where the money went, and that if those circumstances had been reversed then they actually would have had a profit of $7 million. Still sucks, though. At least the whole industry is feeling it (as far as i know)

I think i got the first post this time!

[e-coli]

Originally posted by Macrumors
PowerBook and PowerMac sales are sluggish.

hmmm....could that be because the not-so-Power-Macs are slow and overpriced?

no....surely not. :rolleyes:

[carta]

Just read MacInTouch's analysis of the quarterly results. Seems that the CRT-based iMac and the eMac swamped the new LCD iMac in sales.

I suppose that a percentage of eMac sales belongs to the education market. But I wondered if people who bought an all-in-one would rather go for a kid-proof CRT model as opposed to the delicate LCD model.

Shopping between an iMac and eMac recently, I thought that perhaps the new iMac design was not going to be with us as long as the CRT variety. The eMac looks more stable, rugged, and unstealable.

[shadowfax]

they really need to update those darn powerbooks. who would pay 3200$ for just better than imac level performance? it's unfeasible. we need 933 MHz/1 GHz and radeon 9000 THIS MONTH. urgh

[weezer]

All I have to say about powerbook sales being slow is duh!

Bring us an update, and sales will increase. . .

[Macette]

it's forums like this that screw apple :)

we all 'know' that something big is just around the corner, so why buy now? this has been a particularly bad quarter in that respect, and it's only going to get worse until the G4 gets bumped for something EXCITING and NEW.

come on apple. i'm bored with waiting.

[impierced]

Originally posted by Macette
it's forums like this that screw apple :)

we all 'know' that something big is just around the corner, so why buy now? this has been a particularly bad quarter in that respect, and it's only going to get worse until the G4 gets bumped for something EXCITING and NEW.

come on apple. i'm bored with waiting.

Yeah I know something big is just around the corner, I've known for the past 4 years, but amazingly it never shows it's face.

[Maclicious]

I'm sitting here waiting to jump on a powerbook, when an upgrade comes. But, I'm greedy. I'm worried there will be yet another update in March-April or thereabouts. And now with the 64 bit chip... I'm wondering if I shouldn't wait another year and more through.... Then again, it's hard to play Warcraft III on my iBook--a little too jerky. I think Santa will be bringing me a new powerbook, whatever it is, come December :-).

[ibrainch]

Last year Apple announced the iPod the week after earnings. I would suspect the same this time, if all rumors are true - question is will it just be upgrade or new device? It seems like the new pda/phone rumors are starting to die though. Also, I didn't hear anything about pc iPod sales? Did anyone hear anything about these numbers? They did mention something about a lot of ipods and ibooks under christmas trees...

[Spock]

Apple,
LOWER YOUR F&%?$N PRICES.


Spock.

[arn]

Originally posted by Maclicious
I'm sitting here waiting to jump on a powerbook, when an upgrade comes. But, I'm greedy. I'm worried there will be yet another update in March-April or thereabouts. And now with the 64 bit chip... I'm wondering if I shouldn't wait another year and more through.... .

There will always be another update in 6-9 months... no matter when you buy.

If you follow this logic, you will never get a new computer. Get one after a new release and you'll have the longest life with that particular machine.

arn

[arn]

Originally posted by ibrainch
Last year Apple announced the iPod the week after earnings. I would suspect the same this time, if all rumors are true - question is will it just be upgrade or new device? It seems like the new pda/phone rumors are starting to die though. Also, I didn't hear anything about pc iPod sales? Did anyone hear anything about these numbers? They did mention something about a lot of ipods and ibooks under christmas trees...

The MacNN article linked in the original article quotes all the figures.

arn

[bidge]

Originally posted by arn


There will always be another update in 6-9 months... no matter when you buy.

If you follow this logic, you will never get a new computer. Get one after a new release and you'll have the longest life with that particular machine.

arn

Or if you got a FP imac at the very beginning of the year, you will still be having life out of it...

4:25 minutes through it says 50,000 PC iPods.

All MP3 players sold in Japan was made up of 42% iPods.

[MacBandit]

Yeah Apple lower your pices. Reduce your margins and make less money. Go further in the hole. Go out of business.

Some people don't get it. Also the current line of PowerMac are the best buy Apple has ever had the most power for the dollar. They are also all priced lower then the ones they replaced and 2 of the three models are now dual where the previous models were single processor.

I personally have spent a lot of time pricing PCs and if you add up everything you get with a Mac and get a PC with comparable hardware you end up with a PC costing withing a couple hundred dollars of any of the tower except the top one. This though has always been the case if you want the fastes you will always pay the most by a large margin.

[superfoo]

No, Apple *DOES* need to lower their prices, and No, a similarly configured PC is not even close to the price of a Mac... it is A LOT less than a Mac.

Example, the closest configured Dell Inspiron 8200 laptop to an Apple PowerBook Ti 800MHz is almost $1,000.00 less!

Dell system:

- Inspiron 8200
- 1.8GHz P4 CPU (about the same as the G4 800MHz, maybe even a little better)
- 15.0" UXGA display (which, while not as "wide" as the PB display, does a higher resolution.)
- 768MB DDR RAM (I chose this rather than 1GB, as DDR RAM is faster and more expensive than the SDRAM that the PB uses)
- 60GB 5200RPM hard drive
- DVD/CDRW drive
- Internal 802.11b wireless
- Internal 10/100 LAN (yes, I know the PB is 10/100/1000, so we'll give another $100 to the Dell price to compensate for this)
- Internal 56kbps modem
- 32MB 4xAGB Nvidia GeForce 2
- Same type of 1yr warranty as with the PB

COST: $2362.00 with current promotions accounted for + $100 for lack of 10/100/1000 = $2462.00

Apple System:
- 800MHz PowerPC G4
- 1GB SDRAM
- 60GB Ultra ATA drive
- AirPort Card
- DVD-ROM/CD-RW Combo
- LAN, modem, etc., etc.

COST: $3,439.00 with current promotions accounted for

I want desperately to get an Apple portable... As an avid Linux and BSD user, OSX is EXACTLY what I am looking for....

I get the solid UNIX core that I use Linux and BSD for to begin with, plus, I get good hardware support, industry standard software support, and a great GUI... The lacking of these features (with the exception of the GUI), is what prevents my using ONLY Linux or ONLY BSD for both my business and personal computing...

I have $4000 burning a hole in my wallet (well, credit card anyway) just waiting to buy an Apple portable, but with the glaring over-inflated prices and comparably lousy hardware specs, I REFUSE to buy an Apple portable until they wake up and upgrade their products.

(edited to fix typos)

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by superfoo
No, Apple *DOES* need to lower their prices, and No, a similarly configured PC is not even close to the price of a Mac... it is A LOT less than a Mac.

Example, the closest configured Dell Inspiron 8200 laptop to an Apple PowerBook Ti 800MHz is almost $1,000.00 less!

Dell system:

- Inspiron 8200
- 1.8GHz P4 CPU (about the same as the G4 800MHz, maybe even a little better)
- 15.0" UXGA display (which, while not as "wide" as the PB display, does a higher resolution.)
- 768MB DDR RAM (I chose this rather than 1GB, as DDR RAM is faster and more expensive than the SDRAM that the PB uses)
- 60GB 5200RPM hard drive
- DVD/CDRW drive
- Internal 802.11b wireless
- Internal 10/100 LAN (yes, I know the PB is 10/100/1000, so we'll give another $100 to the Dell price to compensate for this)
- Internal 56kbps modem
- 32MB 4xAGB Nvidia GeForce 2
- Same type of 1yr warranty as with the PB

COST: $2362.00 with current promotions accounted for + $100 for lack of 10/100/1000 = $2462.00

Apple System:
- 800MHz PowerPC G4
- 1GB SDRAM
- 60GB Ultra ATA drive
- AirPort Card
- DVD-ROM/CD-RW Combo
- LAN, modem, etc., etc.

COST: $3,439.00 with current promotions accounted for

I want desperately to get an Apple portable... As an avid Linux and BSD user, OSX is EXACTLY what I am looking for....

I get the solid UNIX core that I use Linux and BSD for to begin with, plus, I get good hardware support, industry standard software support, and a great GUI... The lacking of these features (with the exception of the GUI), is what prevents my using ONLY Linux or ONLY BSD for both my business and personal computing...

I have $4000 burning a hole in my wallet (well, credit card anyway) just waiting to buy an Apple portable, but with the glaring over-inflated prices and comparably lousy hardware specs, I REFUSE to buy an Apple portable until they wake up and upgrade their products.

(edited to fix typos)

Sorry I haven't been shopping laptops so I haven't compared prices on them. I do know that desktop prices are very close.

Also I would not consider a low power version of the P4 at 1.8 to even be in the same ball park as a full on 800Mhz G4.

[superfoo]

Originally posted by MacBandit


Sorry I haven't been shopping laptops so I haven't compared prices on them. I do know that desktop prices are very close.

Also I would not consider a low power version of the P4 at 1.8 to even be in the same ball park as a full on 800Mhz G4.

Sorry, now that I look at your origional post, I see that you mentioned PowerMacs... I was really anticipating an update to the PBs and have laptops on the brain :-) .... Also, from the research that I have done, a P4 1.8GHz is comprable to a G4 800MHz.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by superfoo


Sorry, now that I look at your origional post, I see that you mentioned PowerMacs... I was really anticipating an update to the PBs and have laptops on the brain :-) .... Also, from the research that I have done, a P4 1.8GHz is comprable to a G4 800MHz.

You might be right. It's just that all the tests I've seen of PC laptops to Mac Laptops show the G4 on top no matter what the PC Laptop has in it.

[shadowfax]

while i agree that powerbooks need updating and are about 400$ overpriced right now, i don't think you [superfoo, or anyone for that matter] should be comparing them to Dells. dell is really not a very good laptop manufacturer. they shine in bulky desktop design; my old dell p3 is unbelievably quiet and cool (except when the hard drive clunks). in laptops, you will find that the main premium you pay for is compression. that is why the powerbook costs so much more than, say, the 17 inch imac with most of the same specs. on a powerbook. you are getting quite literally almost double the compression of the dell laptops. of course it is going to be more expensive. have you looked at the alienware laptops with the desktop processor in them?

so as i said, they are not too heavily overpriced... try comparing to an IBM thinkpad T30... that's the only PC laptop i have seen that comes close to the powerbook's zen of performance and portability. my dad works for dell. i am not dissing them. they do try on their laptops, but they are after the wrong market or something. in japan, they have less than 1% of the notebook market. i don't have any clue what apple has there, but i can imagine it's considerably more.

[superfoo]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
while i agree that powerbooks need updating and are about 400$ overpriced right now, i don't think you [superfoo, or anyone for that matter] should be comparing them to Dells. dell is really not a very good laptop manufacturer. they shine in bulky desktop design; my old dell p3 is unbelievably quiet and cool (except when the hard drive clunks). in laptops, you will find that the main premium you pay for is compression. that is why the powerbook costs so much more than, say, the 17 inch imac with most of the same specs. on a powerbook. you are getting quite literally almost double the compression of the dell laptops. of course it is going to be more expensive. have you looked at the alienware laptops with the desktop processor in them?

so as i said, they are not too heavily overpriced... try comparing to an IBM thinkpad T30... that's the only PC laptop i have seen that comes close to the powerbook's zen of performance and portability. my dad works for dell. i am not dissing them. they do try on their laptops, but they are after the wrong market or something. in japan, they have less than 1% of the notebook market. i don't have any clue what apple has there, but i can imagine it's considerably more.

The compression point that you mention is a very good one... I'm a bit more of a function over form kind of guy for the most part, so I never even thought about that... On the other hand, the "compression" ratio on the PowerBook vs the Dell isn't something that I think is worth almost $600.

I would say though, that you are right in the price comparison to the "ultra portables" of the PC world not being as greatly divided as with the "portable" PCs.

On an off note, I did LAN support for my previous employer (Earthlink), and ALL we bought our employees for laptops were Dell Latitude series systems... I can say from that experience that they were very solid, durable, and reliable systems. I now personally have a Dell Inspiron 8200 w/ a 1.6GHz P4 + 1600x1200 15" UXGA+ display, which as lived up to that same standard. Even while my Dell is hitting eBay as soon as I buy a new PowerBook (if/)when they come out this year, I do have to disagree with your assessment that Dell is a poor laptop mfg.

Anyhow, thanks for the feedback.

[j763]

Macs are more expensive than PCs.

duh.

you get what you pay for... truly the world's best operating system (i'd never use anything else).

[bkassing]

Yes, you CAN compare Apple PB to Dell.

I have a 3 year old Inspiron 7000. I am a consultant who travels every week. I use my laptop for e-mail and your basic office work (MS OFFICE). And of course some fun stuff like DVDs and games (well...not on a 3 year old computer). I know that my Inspiron was made better 3 years ago than new ones today. The warranty was 3 years! Now, you have to pay for it to get it and they are a lot more reluctant to fix warranty issues (from people whom I work with that have newer Dells).

Less than 1% of the market? What crack are you smoking? Not possible.

I have a mac at home and have been on mac at home forever. I want a powerbook. $3,200 for a PB800 stinks. It is $1,000 overpriced. Sure a burner in it laptop is nice, but really, how many DVD's are you going to burn? Do you do it every day? Once per week? Why not lower the price and just put a DVD drive in? Airport card? Make it an option? What if I don't have or want wireless? (I do).

So for someone like myself who uses my PB to travel, e-mail, web, MS office.....why would I pay a huge premium for a 9 month old Apple? If it was faster by a long shot, yep! But it is not. So only 512K Ram, decent processor and $1000 overpriced with no "specials" from Apple to incent me (bundles with IPOD, etc).

I love Apple. I'd much rather use it. But not now. I'm still using my tired ole slow piece of crap 80 pound laptop until Apple give me a competive offering.

[e-coli]

Originally posted by j763
you get what you pay for... truly the world's best operating system (i'd never use anything else).

yes, true. But the hardware certainly isn't the world's best. So they should crank up the price on the operating system and quit making people pay through the nose for the hardware.

just my opinion.

[blogo]

Originally posted by bkassing
Yes, you CAN compare Apple PB to Dell.

I have a 3 year old Inspiron 7000. I am a consultant who travels every week. I use my laptop for e-mail and your basic office work (MS OFFICE). And of course some fun stuff like DVDs and games (well...not on a 3 year old computer). I know that my Inspiron was made better 3 years ago than new ones today. The warranty was 3 years! Now, you have to pay for it to get it and they are a lot more reluctant to fix warranty issues (from people whom I work with that have newer Dells).

Less than 1% of the market? What crack are you smoking? Not possible.

I have a mac at home and have been on mac at home forever. I want a powerbook. $3,200 for a PB800 stinks. It is $1,000 overpriced. Sure a burner in it laptop is nice, but really, how many DVD's are you going to burn? Do you do it every day? Once per week? Why not lower the price and just put a DVD drive in? Airport card? Make it an option? What if I don't have or want wireless? (I do).

So for someone like myself who uses my PB to travel, e-mail, web, MS office.....why would I pay a huge premium for a 9 month old Apple? If it was faster by a long shot, yep! But it is not. So only 512K Ram, decent processor and $1000 overpriced with no "specials" from Apple to incent me (bundles with IPOD, etc).

I love Apple. I'd much rather use it. But not now. I'm still using my tired ole slow piece of crap 80 pound laptop until Apple give me a competive offering.

2 mistakes here

1. You can't burn DVD's on the PowerBook, just CD's

2. It comes with 512mb ram not 512k

[copperpipe]

i just went on road for six weeks. the business i was working for gave me a toshiba using a p4 (i forget the exact mgz, sorry). I brought along my g3 ibook for personal use. Now here's the thing: The toshiba was a clunky piece of cr*p, that crahsed fairly frequently, had a lot of quirky behavior, weighed more, had less battery life, and in general was something I was always glad to shut down and be finished with. The ibook, on the other hand, was something i enjoyed, something i looked forward to working with-something i found excuses to use! I was using OS X.1, and yes it took a little while to startup, and it probably was slower than the toshiba running photoshop or some other intense program. And they both probably cost about the same.

And most of the idiot-geeks here on these forums say speed! speed! megahertz! *choke* *cough* speed! But I say this-

Quality! Quality! Quality!

Go back to your PC's people please! I don't wanna hear your shallow rants and raves!

[Chad4Mac]

"yes, true. But the hardware certainly isn't the world's best. So they should crank up the price on the operating system and quit making people pay through the nose for the hardware."

Isn't the OS included in the hardware purchase? If you decrease the hardware price, and increase the OS price, you'll still get the same price (depending on the margin). But I feel it wouldn't make a difference.

I love how many of the people complaining about the price of the PB, do not currently own one. Wait for the update, and buy. You won't be disapointed.

To further prove the point, try and get a couple people on the site who own a PB to complain about their PB -- and the price they paid for it.

And people that compare prices of PC laptops to PBs.
On the PB side:
add
iTunes
iMovie
iCal
iSnyc
Address Book
iPhoto
Sherlock
Mail
iChat
iChat
the difference in price should drop

It's like comparing Mac Apples to bad apples (XP) -- it just ain't worth biting into a bad apple.

[hesdeadjim]

Yes, you CAN compare Apple PB to Dell.

I have a 3 year old Inspiron 7000. I am a consultant who travels every week. I use my laptop for e-mail and your basic office work (MS OFFICE). And of course some fun stuff like DVDs and games (well...not on a 3 year old computer). I know that my Inspiron was made better 3 years ago than new ones today. The warranty was 3 years! Now, you have to pay for it to get it and they are a lot more reluctant to fix warranty issues (from people whom I work with that have newer Dells).

Less than 1% of the market? What crack are you smoking? Not possible.

I have a mac at home and have been on mac at home forever. I want a powerbook. $3,200 for a PB800 stinks. It is $1,000 overpriced. Sure a burner in it laptop is nice, but really, how many DVD's are you going to burn? Do you do it every day? Once per week? Why not lower the price and just put a DVD drive in? Airport card? Make it an option? What if I don't have or want wireless? (I do).

So for someone like myself who uses my PB to travel, e-mail, web, MS office.....why would I pay a huge premium for a 9 month old Apple? If it was faster by a long shot, yep! But it is not. So only 512K Ram, decent processor and $1000 overpriced with no "specials" from Apple to incent me (bundles with IPOD, etc).

I love Apple. I'd much rather use it. But not now. I'm still using my tired ole slow piece of crap 80 pound laptop until Apple give me a competive offering.

Honestly, it doesn't even sound like you need a PB. It sounds like you just need an iBook maybe one of the 14 in screen ones. If you are just going to travel, e-mail, web, MS Office why do you need everything else a PG gives you.

To further prove the point, try and get a couple people on the site who own a PB to complain about their PB -- and the price they paid for it.

I couldn't agree more. I just got my 800 MHz PB, you know what, I haven't complained about the price at all. For everything I got, I'm happy and really feel like I've repalaced my desktop in a nice, easy, and portable package.
I feel happy using my laptop, something I think is worth the extra cost. And yes, I did reasearch, and I think the costs are compariable when you consider everything I got.

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by MacBandit
Yeah Apple lower your pices. Reduce your margins and make less money. Go further in the hole. Go out of business.

Some people don't get it. Also the current line of PowerMac are the best buy Apple has ever had the most power for the dollar. They are also all priced lower then the ones they replaced and 2 of the three models are now dual where the previous models were single processor.

I personally have spent a lot of time pricing PCs and if you add up everything you get with a Mac and get a PC with comparable hardware you end up with a PC costing withing a couple hundred dollars of any of the tower except the top one. This though has always been the case if you want the fastes you will always pay the most by a large margin.

I agree.

The new power macs are a good deal, especially the 867. Its got at least a 50% peformance increase over the last low end Powermac and it costs only $100 bucks more. You can't beat that.

I also find when i price a pc for someone it comes out to damn near what a mac would cost. I think the average consumer gets caught up when dell has those sales with 1.3 ghz celerons, cheap components and no monitor, for 600 bucks. They don't realize that when you start to customize it at the dell store and add a moniter its the same price as the iMac or damn near to it.

[bkassing]

Rumor has it that a DVD burner is coming. Why? I dunno.

OS X is slow on my G3 B&W updagraded to G4 with plenty of RAM. G3 ibook has to be worse. G4 ibook. Yes, I'm there.

Call me a geek, but speed matters to me. Speed, speed, speed, speed. I want it. The faster the better. Additionally, the faster processor you get, the longer your purchase lasts. And when you are dropping 3 large, that a key.

Anyone who thinks that nobody with a powerbook complains needs to get their head out of the sand. Nothing is perfect. Why do sites advertise TI paint if the powerbook is perfect? Compare the apple warranty to others. Not good. Just a few.

Yes, Apple has a nice set of software feature. I'm a .mac subscribers. Again, let's not be stupid and pretend that stuff doesn't exist on the dark side as well.

Like I said, I'll pay the premium. Just give me the best. A 9 month old g4 with a 40GB harddrive isn't. Speed. speed. Speed.

Bring it.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by bkassing
Rumor has it that a DVD burner is coming. Why? I dunno.

OS X is slow on my G3 B&W updagraded to G4 with plenty of RAM. G3 ibook has to be worse. G4 ibook. Yes, I'm there.

Call me a geek, but speed matters to me. Speed, speed, speed, speed. I want it. The faster the better. Additionally, the faster processor you get, the longer your purchase lasts. And when you are dropping 3 large, that a key.

Anyone who thinks that nobody with a powerbook complains needs to get their head out of the sand. Nothing is perfect. Why do sites advertise TI paint if the powerbook is perfect? Compare the apple warranty to others. Not good. Just a few.

Yes, Apple has a nice set of software feature. I'm a .mac subscribers. Again, let's not be stupid and pretend that stuff doesn't exist on the dark side as well.

Like I said, I'll pay the premium. Just give me the best. A 9 month old g4 with a 40GB harddrive isn't. Speed. speed. Speed.

Bring it.

What version of OSX are you running? I have 10.2 on my old B/WG3 400 and it is quite acceptable without a G4 Upgrade. Yes is could be faster but I have my Dual/Ghz/DDR for real speed.

[evilfunkgenius]

In an economy where most people are trying to save their jobs (no not steve... employment), going out and spending money on a newer faster computer that is only going to be replaced in a few months by something faster is out of the question. This is the primary reason why Apple and most other companies are losing money right now. No one is spending.

I think this also shows a little reason why .Mac is being charged for, and why they are charging 10.2 as a full upgrade, etc. I think that Apple used to think, "Well we charge a little more for our hardware, and throw in all these little software goodies" and then everyone complains that the prices are too high. Then they start using less powerful components and they start making everyone pay for more of the software and goodies, and then they will be able to lower the price.

Ultimately, business is about making money, and Apple (as much as we all think it is some sort of cult) is a business. So my guess is to expect lower priced computers but with a lot of the "goodies" removed from the package.

(NOTE: personally, I found the little extra things included in my recent 20gb iPod very very cool. It has always been such a pleasant surprise to open a beautifully designed Apple package to remove an equally beautiful device only to discover little additions that I was not expecting. I think that is one of the best kept secrets about Apple, which you would never get from a manufacturer like Dell.)

-efg

[bkassing]

One other item I don't see Apple doing in bunding their digital products.

Sure we get the monitor/powerbook thing. But they advertise the digital hub and need to package it up.

powerbook---ipod--camera....or any combination. I want an ipod and a powerbook. It would seem to make sense to bring these supersize combos together and CREATE the digital hub.

[multifinder]

Originally posted by carta
Just read MacInTouch's analysis of the quarterly results. Seems that the CRT-based iMac and the eMac swamped the new LCD iMac in sales.

I suppose that a percentage of eMac sales belongs to the education market. But I wondered if people who bought an all-in-one would rather go for a kid-proof CRT model as opposed to the delicate LCD model.

Shopping between an iMac and eMac recently, I thought that perhaps the new iMac design was not going to be with us as long as the CRT variety. The eMac looks more stable, rugged, and unstealable.

I thought that was interesting too--the 15" LCD iMac seems to be Steve's second dud, after the Cube. In Steve/Apple's perfect world the 15" iMac would have sold like crazy and they wouldn't have needed to roll out the eMac. It'll be interesting to see what replaces the 15" iMac in January.

I think Apple's finding the hard way that in a recession, other than fanatics most people just aren't going to shell out over $1500 for a computer. I'm worried with sales like this their market share will be 1% in a couple years. Having said that, I'm looking at buying a PowerMac...

[mr evil brkfast]

I am really suprised by the CRT sales of the G3 imac. Only one model and it sold 76,000!!

The new G4 imac only cleared 113,000. I think it may have sold more if the 17" had shipped right away.

The emac (129,000) and ibook (180,000) seem to be the only products that are selling decently (considering they both need an update).

[Spidermanjohn]

One minute to air on our technology TV show's new season, our hosts are comfortable in their chairs. A Mac Titanium 500 and a spankin' new Dell Inspiron are on the set. Roll open--ready camera 2, host on camera left is jumping up and down the Dell/XP has died for no reason!!! Luckily the hosts are very good with both platforms. Host camera right is able to restart the Dell while opening the show. Show goes as planned. This has been the story for three years now. Darn PC's give us fits all year long on the show.

We moved to Mac form PC four years ago and have never looked back. Our Mac maintenance is next to nothing, it was daily with the PC's. I was a PC snob for 15+ years and am now a Mac snob because my/our computing life is soooo much better:-)

The Dell is not near the rich multimedia experience that the Mac offers. The DVD controls really stink. Windows XP is way tooooo controlling. Our IT department doesn't even like XP. The Dell Inspiron is VERY heavy. I can edit using FCP or iMovie out of the box on our Titanium’s. Heck, I still use my three-yea- old G3 500 PowerBook as my main office and traveling computer. OS X 10.1.5 and Classic open all day long. I can remember the last time I have shut down my PowerBook. I take my PowerBook home, join my Airport network without restarting and continue to work. I also have the new Insiron to take home, it sit in the box waiting for the next show. I have offered the Dell to my employees to take home. A few have tried it and give it back saying they would rather use their G3 and G4 PowerBooks. Hooking up a Mac to a projector or scan converter is muck more reliable too.

If all you are doing is getting email and using Word, then save your money and buy a Dell. If you want a pleasurable multimedia rich experience get the G4 Titanium for editing video or the iBook to save a few $$$. I use each platform for its strengths.

However, I will continue to use my G3 PowerBook until it dies. My kids use it, my wife uses it, I take it camping, edit home movies in our RV, it sits by the campfire playing DVD's, the battery life is still great, it has been dropped and it keeps on working. Our TiBooks on the other hand, are fragile and scratch easily. We have a few with broken chassis and most a scratched. I miss being able to slide out my CD and replace it with a ZIP drive. I will probably replace my G3 PowerBook with an iBook if that time comes.

Take my experiences it for what they are worth.

[e-coli]

Originally posted by Chad4Mac
I love how many of the people complaining about the price of the PB, do not currently own one. You won't be disapointed.

I have a TiBook and I absolutely love it...best $4500 I ever dropped.

[Chad4Mac]

"I have a TiBook and I absolutely love it...best $4500 I ever dropped."

My point exactly :)

I have a Powerbook and I absolutely love it...best $3000 I have ever spent.

[vixapphire]

$4500? *gulp*

is that in US currency? if so, what exactly is the configuration of your computer? i'm anticipating upgrading out of my b&w g3 450 into either a pb 1gig (if/when) or one of the new disco dually powermacs, but i'll be damned if the laptop's gonna cost that much by the time i take it out of the wrapper! form factor's cool 'n all, but the sheer power differential between, say, an 800 pb and a dual 1.25 makes the fact that the 1.25 is cheaper than the 800 a little hard to swallow at this point. apple needs either to rebate soon to bridge until the next pb update, or to bring the new product. preferably asap on either/both counts.

[UnixMac]

Apple can add $4000 to their Q4 revenue if they give me a faster and better new PB NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1.0GHz
ATI 9000 w/ 64Mb
Bluetooth
60 Gig 5400RPM
512 MB DDR
167Mhz Bus

[Somebody]

Rumor has it that a DVD burner is coming. Why? I dunno.

Likely for the same reason that some desktop models include DVD burners. Someone who's looking for a desktop replacement will need a machine with all the capabilities they would demand from a desktop. For some people, this will include DVD burning

Also, a couple of points on the Inspiron vs. PB comparison:

First, in addition to being thinner than the Dell, the PB is about 30% lighter (5.4 lbs vs. 7.64 lbs). Judging from my experiences working as a traveling consultant and dragging a laptop everywhere I went, every ounce counts. You're getting less value out of the Dell if the added weight and bulk mean that you're going to leave it at home more often than you would the PB.

Second, when comparing prices, you need to consider the fact that Macs generally retain resale value somewhat better than PCs. Sure, that PB may cost more than the Dell now, but it'll also be worth more in 2 years when you've bought a replacement machine and want to sell it off. Is the difference in resale value big enough to make up for the difference in purchase prices? I doubt it. But it's probably enough to make that initial difference seem a lot less dramatic.

I'm planning to buy a PB after the next upgrade, and I admit that when I look at the price of a comparably equiped PC laptop, I get a bit of reverse sticker shock and start wondering whether my plan is such a good one. But I know I'll get a lot more use out of the PB than I would out of a PC, and that settles the issue, for me.

[bkassing]

"Likely for the same reason that some desktop models include DVD burners. Someone who's looking for a desktop replacement will need a machine with all the capabilities they would demand from a desktop. For some people, this will include DVD burning"

I'll take a cheaper price over DVD burner. What a waste of a feature. For people that want that go buy a firewire dvd burner.

"First, in addition to being thinner than the Dell, the PB is about 30% lighter (5.4 lbs vs. 7.64 lbs). Judging from my experiences working as a traveling consultant and dragging a laptop everywhere I went, every ounce counts. You're getting less value out of the Dell if the added weight and bulk mean that you're going to leave it at home more often than you would the PB."

Yes, my Dell is a brick. But ya know the base pounds are deceptive. Once you drop in a magazine or two, power cords, anything else you carry, the different is small. How something 8 pounds is heavy and 5 pounds is light is to me a ridiculous comparison.

"Second, when comparing prices, you need to consider the fact that Macs generally retain resale value somewhat better than PCs. Sure, that PB may cost more than the Dell now, but it'll also be worth more in 2 years when you've bought a replacement machine and want to sell it off. Is the difference in resale value big enough to make up for the difference in purchase prices? I doubt it. But it's probably enough to make that initial difference seem a lot less dramatic."

Nobody buys a computer for resale value. This isn't a BMW. Especially a used laptop.

"I'm planning to buy a PB after the next upgrade, and I admit that when I look at the price of a comparably equiped PC laptop, I get a bit of reverse sticker shock and start wondering whether my plan is such a good one. But I know I'll get a lot more use out of the PB than I would out of a PC, and that settles the issue, for me."

I'll love it too. I just want more speed.

[MacBandit]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bkassing
"Likely for the same reason that some desktop models include DVD burners. Someone who's looking for a desktop replacement will need a machine with all the capabilities they would demand from a desktop. For some people, this will include DVD burning"

I'll take a cheaper price over DVD burner. What a waste of a feature. For people that want that go buy a firewire dvd burner.


Nobody buys a computer for resale value. This isn't a BMW. Especially a used laptop.[\Quote]

You can always buy the PowerBook with or without the DVD Burner if they do include it. For those people out there who want it this will be great. The whole idea is to have to carry less crap with you. So why would they want an external device that weighs as much as the laptop almost?

Also resale value has and always be a consideration to me when I buy a computer. I typically sell my old computers and I typically upgrade every couple years.

[Somebody]

I'll take a cheaper price over DVD burner. What a waste of a feature. For people that want that go buy a firewire dvd burner.


So buy a model that doesn't include the DVD burner. Even now, the lowest end PowerMac doesn't include a SuperDrive. It'll be a long time before Apple stops shipping SuperDrive-less PowerBooks. I'm betting that at first, only the very top end


Yes, my Dell is a brick. But ya know the base pounds are deceptive. Once you drop in a magazine or two, power cords, anything else you carry, the different is small. How something 8 pounds is heavy and 5 pounds is light is to me a ridiculous comparison.


8 lbs isn't 'heavy' in any absolute sense, but it is 60% *heavier*. The difference seems small if you pick one up, hold it a few seconds, then put it down and pick the other up. But it doesn't seem small when you've got the thing dangling off of your shoulder for the better part of an hour at a time, as you work your way through check-in and security lines. If the difference is insignificant, then why is it that even on the PC side, there's a strong market for lighter machines? Maybe saving a couple of pounds isn't valuable to you, but clearly it is to a lot of people.


Nobody buys a computer for resale value. This isn't a BMW. Especially a used laptop.


Nobody buys a computer strictly for its resale value, but that's no excuse for leaving said value out of a price/performance comparison altogether.

[superfoo]

While nobody on this board will ever agree 100% on weather or not the inflated price of an Apple vs a PC is worth it (hell, not even 70% would agree), I think we all can agree that Apple needs to get their act together, and quickly when it comes to their portable lineup.

Yes, Apple uses higher quality hardware than MOST PC OEMs... BUT:

When compared to the PC OEMs that DO use quality hardware, like Dell (Regardless of if thier systems are "too heavy" or "ugly", they still pump out a SOLID, HIGH QUALITY product. No cheap Via chipsets, no cheap software-based NICs, top-notch mobile video cards, etc., etc., cutting corners with this is common to many portable PC OEMs), the Apples still come up short, because they are *outdated* when compared to the configurations availible from Portable PC OEMs.

Yes, I know that a G4 is notably FASTER than an equally clocked P4, but the bottom line is that fastest G4 availible in a portable is still notably SLOWER than the fastest P4 availible in a portable.... AND the slower Apple is STILL more expensive.

That, combined with the fact that several other key components in the top-end Apple portables do not stack up to their PC rivals (video card GPU/memory, screen resolution, and front-side bus speed) makes the increaesed cost of the Apples even more outstanding.

Bottom line, a reasonable portable from Apple should meet the following points:

* A faster CPU. AT LEAST 1GHz. Yes, Apple, it's amazing that you've managed to fit so much good stuff into such a good small space, but be a bit more objective. Most users would rather deal with a .4" thicker top-end system than a top-end system with at least 40% less speed than the top-end PC portable. Especially when they're paying a premium for it.

* Higher screen resolution. Come-on! The PowerBooks have one of THE largest and most breathtaking displays availible on a portable computer today, yet they have THE most sorry resolution for a display of that size. This is my #1 complaint about the current PBs.

* A faster bus! PC133 is OK, but DDR does make a very notable difference... Especially for those doing graphics, sound, or video... more specifically, those in Apple's target audience!

* USB 2.0!!!

* An upgraded video card would be nice. Not necessary, but certainly nice... this doesn't need to be something with a godly amount of RAM, but a GPU like that in the Radeon 9k or GeForce 4 would compliment the PowerBook very well.

* A longer-life battery if you can swing it.

The real Bottom Line? How about starting at $2,700 - 2,900 US for the 1GHz system with 512MB RAM and a 40GB drive. I'd buy one within the first 5min they went on sale.

[shadowfax]

i don't think apple can do USB 2 for the same reason intel won't put firewire on their motherboards. time will tell though.

powerbooks are slower than the fastest IBM T30s of course. they put them out in april. but you are kidding yourself if you think there is a 40% overall difference between fast PC laptops and the G4. that 1 MB of L3 does essentially the same thing as DDR, albeit not as fast, but my bet's that it's significantly powersaving over DDR. a powerbook with jaguar is FAST. i've messed around with them in compUSA. i'll guarantee you they will do a number of things, namely altivec stuff (like, hmmm, a lot of the UI) faster than a p4 laptop.

it's a tradeoff on everything. i admit that the powerbook is overall slower, and if you read my past posts you will notice i have as much as a vested interest in a new powerbook as any other prospective buyer, but let's NOT say 40% speed difference, that's a little extreme.

and i laugh at you if you actually think you'll be paying under 3000$ for a 1GHz powerbook within the next 9 months. that's probably the biggest pipe dream you could have about these things, unless you are going for some serious education discounts..

[superfoo]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
i don't think apple can do USB 2 for the same reason intel won't put firewire on their motherboards. time will tell though.

powerbooks are slower than the fastest IBM T30s of course. they put them out in april. but you are kidding yourself if you think there is a 40% overall difference between fast PC laptops and the G4. that 1 MB of L3 does essentially the same thing as DDR, albeit not as fast, but my bet's that it's significantly powersaving over DDR. a powerbook with jaguar is FAST. i've messed around with them in compUSA. i'll guarantee you they will do a number of things, namely altivec stuff (like, hmmm, a lot of the UI) faster than a p4 laptop.

it's a tradeoff on everything. i admit that the powerbook is overall slower, and if you read my past posts you will notice i have as much as a vested interest in a new powerbook as any other prospective buyer, but let's NOT say 40% speed difference, that's a little extreme.

and i laugh at you if you actually think you'll be paying under 3000$ for a 1GHz powerbook within the next 9 months. that's probably the biggest pipe dream you could have about these things, unless you are going for some serious education discounts..

1MB of L3 cache *is* a *huge* performance booster, but it still doesn't compensate for a slower front-side bus and a slower bus for the CPU. When you compare the 266MHz FSB as found in the P4's to the 133MHz bus found in the PowerBook G4, you'll see that L3 cache doing a lot less levelling to the playing field than you might have first thought.

Aside from that, and most importantly, you're looking at a minimum 20% overall performance boost when comparing a SDRAM-based mac to a DDR-based mac.

Also, you're right. Maybe 40% is a bit off. I see that the fastest avail x86-based notebooks have 2.2GHz P4s and Athlon XP 1800+'s.... maybe 50% slower overall would be a more accurate comparison for the G4s.

Yes, DDR uses more power.... But then again, my PC laptop has 512MB of DDR, AND a P4. Both of these are huge power hogs, yet my battery life still averages about 3hrs and 45min.

And no, less than $3k for a 1GHz PowerBook is not laughable, it's reasonable.

As for "pipe dream", if you will read my origional post, the things I mention in it are not those of a wish list, rather they things that Apple NEEDS to do in order to bring their portable line back on par and be compeditive in the portable computing market.

Don't beleive me? Go read some 3rd party benchmarks (with numbers, not phrases like "it feels fast"). Do some price comparisons while keeping those benchmarks in mind. Weather you're wililng to admit it or not, you will see that I said is just about right.

[shadowfax]

i'm still not buying your argument. G4's even at just 800 MHz scream on altivec. there's no way it's half as fast.

screw 3rd party measurements. those are always controversial. it's about user experience. if there was a 50% gap between the uber PC laptops and the powerbook, you would actually be able to tell. that's not a difference like between a 2.0 GHz P4 and a 2.2 GHz. that you would never know about unless you looked at specs or benchmarks. 50% overall difference is HUGE. you would have to wait twice as long for photoshop to load, twice as long for it to render a gaussian blur, twice as long for the computer to boot, twice as long to encode an mp3... no. there are no thoroughly accurate "overall" benchmarks between macs and PCs, between laptops or in general.

i don't essentially disagree with most of your criticism. there are a lot of things that need to be fixed on the powerbook. 1440 x 1024 resolution, radeon M 9000 w/ 64 MB, faster FSB, 1GHz G4, more L3 DRAM or just DDR SDRAM, all 5400 rpm HDs, and a faster internal drive are all on the list of more or less gaping incongruities on their top-of-the-line laptop. but 50% slowdown? no way.

[bkassing]

Wait a second! I thought powerbooks were perfect and nobody complained about powerbooks. Only pc folks complained about their laptops.

Another thread talks about how much power pb use with OS X.

The bottom line on the hardware side is that you can get more dollar for your money on the PC side. If Apple wants me to pay premium, then give me premium features.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by bkassing
Wait a second! I thought powerbooks were perfect and nobody complained about powerbooks. Only pc folks complained about their laptops.

Another thread talks about how much power pb use with OS X.

The bottom line on the hardware side is that you can get more dollar for your money on the PC side. If Apple wants me to pay premium, then give me premium features.

If you were to ask those people that are complaining about the power usage if they were at all dissapointed in there powerbook. I think you get the same answer from all of them saying absolutely not. Everyone that I know that has ever used a powerbook finds it to be worth every penny.

[skunk]

To those who are saying that the price difference is compensated for by the OS, I say "How many people would buy Jaguar for $1129.00?" :confused:

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by skunk
To those who are saying that the price difference is compensated for by the OS, I say "How many people would buy Jaguar for $1129.00?" :confused:

How many people would be willing to pay $600 (the difference between a decent PC and a low end Powermac.) just to run Mac OS.

I'm guessing everyone who has a Mac.