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woland8816
Feb 5, 2012, 09:47 AM
Hi,

So I've spent the lat 20 years in a successful career that no longer interests me at all. Though it sounds crazy, I have always been interested in software development. My question is, given that my degrees are not in math and science, let alone computer science, is there any possibility of becoming a programer or engineer without going for a BA in computer science at least?

Feel free to convince to stop thinking about this. However, if there is some practical advice you might have about actually making this change, I would appreciate it.



wpotere
Feb 5, 2012, 10:00 AM
Hi,

So I've spent the lat 20 years in a successful career that no longer interests me at all. Though it sounds crazy, I have always been interested in software development. My question is, given that my degrees are not in math and science, let alone computer science, is there any possibility of becoming a programer or engineer without going for a BA in computer science at least?

Feel free to convince to stop thinking about this. However, if there is some practical advice you might have about actually making this change, I would appreciate it.

Yes, it is possible, anything is possible. However, it will depend on your abilities. Are you already writing code, or are you talking about trying to start now?

If you have no coding experience then you really don't know what it is like and may find that it is not what you thought it would be like once you start.

woland8816
Feb 5, 2012, 10:04 AM
I did take a couple of programming classes in college, and I taught myself HTML. I also know a bit about the industry so I'm not entirely naive to the realities, or maybe I am, in which case I would appreciate "real world" perspectives.

balamw
Feb 5, 2012, 10:08 AM
Changing careers is always a challenge, but it can be done.

I'd suggest taking it on as a serious hobby first to see if there is a real "fit" there and see where it goes from there. (Presuming your current employment allows you to spend some real time away from work).

Network: Look for a local users' group, e.g. http://cocoaheads.org/ (if Mac/iOS programming is what floats your boat).

B

wpotere
Feb 5, 2012, 10:19 AM
I did take a couple of programming classes in college, and I taught myself HTML. I also know a bit about the industry so I'm not entirely naive to the realities, or maybe I am, in which case I would appreciate "real world" perspectives.

If it isn't HTML 5 then you are likely looking at more scripting than programming. As B said, you may want to start doing it as a hobby to see if this is the direction you want to go. I am a C# programmer and school helped, but it didn't really give me the advanced skill set I needed in the real world. It simply taught me the basics and got me in the right frame of mind for it.

There are a lot of directions to go so you will need to figure out what you want to do. I don't know anything about programming for Mac and if you are looking for work, I would suggest looking at a Windows platform as there is likely to be more work available.

woland8816
Feb 5, 2012, 10:23 AM
Grateful for the responses. What are some of the other resources for the hobbyist programmer?

Huge thanks

balamw
Feb 5, 2012, 10:24 AM
I don't know anything about programming for Mac and if you are looking for work, I would suggest looking at a Windows platform as there is likely to be more work available.

This, I actually disagree with, because there will also be a lot more competition from younger/cheaper "talent."

IMHO a mid-career person needs to create a niche where their value is more than just writing code. e.g. bring code to an area where you already have expertise, or bring your expertise to the code. Random example: If you've been working as a restaurant manager, what tools would have made that job easier?

B

wpotere
Feb 5, 2012, 10:29 AM
This, I actually disagree with, because there will also be a lot more competition from younger/cheaper "talent."

IMHO a mid-career person needs to create a niche where their value is more than just writing code. e.g. bring code to an area where you already have expertise, or bring your expertise to the code. Random example: If you've been working as a restaurant manager, what tools would have made that job easier?

B

Fair enough, but out of many of the programming jobs that I have recently looked at none of them were OSx. There were, however, a lot of windows programmer slots out there and if he is going to swap jobs, it will be entry level. If he is waning to jump into a new career, it will not be as a senior, especially in this market.

balamw
Feb 5, 2012, 10:49 AM
There were, however, a lot of windows programmer slots out there and if he is going to swap jobs, it will be entry level. If he is waning to jump into a new career, it will not be as a senior, especially in this market.

Fair enough, but as a hiring manager why would I hire woland8816 over someone fresh out of school that is more likely to be willing to work 80+ hours a week for peanuts or simply a Rent-A-Coder in India?

This should not be seen as a quick/easy process, and one of the challenges a mid-career person always faces is that jobs have to made not found. (More about who you know and your past experience than what you can do today).

EDIT: What are some of the other resources for the hobbyist programmer?

That really depends on what kind of programming you intend to do.

You've already say you do not have a STEM (Science/Technology/Engineering/Math) background and have some background in HTML. Maybe focus on learning how to make iOS apps using HTML5/Javascript?

e.g. http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596805791.do

B

woland8816
Feb 5, 2012, 11:13 AM
The age thing is of real concern for me,but I like the suggestion of writing something for my industry.

In terms of the age question, is it a moot point in an age of global sourcing? I mean, there's always someone willing to do it cheaper somewhere. Still people work and are well compensated. Or is there a youth bias in general?

balamw
Feb 5, 2012, 11:24 AM
In terms of the age question, is it a moot point in an age of global sourcing?

In my experience it's really more that those willing to hire really underestimate or undervalue what it takes to do things right. Ultimately, this tends to bite them in the behind, because in the end it ends up costing more and/or taking longer by the time you are done.

It's this undervaluing that provides the youth/outsourcing bias. EDIT: and why you need to try and add value by bringing your own experience into the mix.

B

lloyddean
Feb 5, 2012, 12:02 PM
The age thing is of real concern for me,but I like the suggestion of writing something for my industry.

In terms of the age question, is it a moot point in an age of global sourcing? I mean, there's always someone willing to do it cheaper somewhere. Still people work and are well compensated. Or is there a youth bias in general?

Yes there is an age bias. Younger people are willing to start at lower wages and cost less to provide health insurance for. They likely don't have the distraction of wife and family taking their minds from the task at hand making for better concentration to the task.

balamw
Feb 5, 2012, 12:17 PM
They likely don't have the distraction of wife and family taking their minds from the task at hand making for better concentration to the task.

In this case concentration just means more time, but it doesn't mean more productivity/effectiveness.

More life experience = more mistakes = more learning from said mistakes and not taking those paths again. Even if you are entering another field some learning from your mistakes will carry over.

JMHO.

B

lloyddean
Feb 5, 2012, 12:22 PM
Nothing I don't already know. But here in the shadow of Redmond HR departments are staffed by HR people with this thinking. Boeing is particularly bad in my opinion. Then there are all the startups of ex Microsoft employee ...

subsonix
Feb 5, 2012, 12:26 PM
So Boeing is staffed with cheap unexperienced labour? I'll make sure I travel with Airbus the next time. :D

lloyddean
Feb 5, 2012, 12:29 PM
New hires in their computer related fields are being replaced as the they retire with nearly only recent college graduates. So in a way yes!

subsonix
Feb 5, 2012, 12:38 PM
New hires in their computer related fields are being replaced as the they retire with nearly only recent college graduates. So in a way yes!

But then there is all the others, you know, between college grads and retirement. In my experience it's not uncommon at all that developer job ads look something like this: "solid knowledge of x and y with at least five years experience of z."

lloyddean
Feb 5, 2012, 12:50 PM
Politics and legal requirements ...

Of course this will vary by area and availability of possible applicants.

firewood
Feb 5, 2012, 04:35 PM
For engineering, you'll need a degree.

For programming, you always have the option to ignore employers and start your own software business. If it's successful (a small, but non-zero chance), a bigger company might buy your software company and thus potentially employ you as a software type as part of the buyout.

Catfish_Man
Feb 5, 2012, 09:56 PM
I got a software engineering job on a very good team at a good company with no degree. Thousands of hours of open source experience counts for a lot.

lloyddean
Feb 5, 2012, 10:20 PM
But that doesn't make you an engineer.

balamw
Feb 5, 2012, 10:41 PM
But that doesn't make you an engineer.

Neither does a degree, on it's own. ;)

B

ytk
Feb 6, 2012, 04:09 AM
If it isn't HTML 5 then you are likely looking at more scripting than programming.

Scripting is programming. HTML is not scripting. HTML is (as the name implies) a markup language, used for laying out documents.

To the OP: Don't make the mistake of thinking you need to learn a really "advanced" language like Java or C (or any C derivative). JavaScript would be a good starting choice (it's a completely different language from Java), as would Ruby or Python. These languages will allow you to get a strong grasp on the fundamental concepts of programming before you have to deal with the messy guts of the computer itself that a statically typed language throws you right into from the outset. Ruby is my personal language of choice (and it's a good one if you want to develop Mac applications), mainly because it's powerful, incredibly flexible, and just plain fun to write code in. But if you're more interested in Web based stuff JavaScript is probably a better bet.

At some point in your career, you will need to understand at least the basics of C. Not necessarily enough to write entire applications with it, but enough to be able to hold a conversation about "returning floats" and "dereferencing pointers" without sounding like a jackass. This is mainly because C is pretty much the "common denominator" programming language, and is often the baseline which functionality in other languages is compared to. But don't worry too much about it when you're just starting out. If you try to throw yourself headlong into learning, say, C#, simply because that's what someone told you you have to do to be an engineer, you'll probably just get discouraged and frustrated. I know, because I know several people who have fallen into that trap. Learn the basics first, then worry about where you go from there—the path will be clear when you get there.

firestarter
Feb 6, 2012, 05:00 AM
So I've spent the lat 20 years in a successful career that no longer interests me at all. Though it sounds crazy, I have always been interested in software development. My question is, given that my degrees are not in math and science, let alone computer science, is there any possibility of becoming a programer or engineer without going for a BA in computer science at least?

Can I ask what your speciality is at the moment?

I don't think this is going to work out for you. It's not the fact that you don't have the education (formal qualifications keep HR people happy, but they're not where most programmers get their skills from).

The big problem is that you're coming from zero, and up to this point you seem to have had little interest in the subject. There's a lot of sense behind the theory that it takes 10000 hours to master a discipline, and many good coders have put those 10000 hours in during their teen years. You're not going to have the deep background exposure to different problems and methods that most decent graduate-age programmers have.

Secondly, are you sure you want to spend your days doing that sort of detailed work? I started off as a programmer, but over time moved into management... as coding became a bit same-y and it became more interesting to 'hack' people. If you've spent 20 years doing people oriented work, you may find it very difficult to sit in a corner and code all day.

Finally, I think you'll have problems getting hired. Junior programmer to senior programmer/team lead to management from 20-35 or so is a standard career path... except these days a lot of low grade programming is outsourced (to India and the like). As a newbie low grade programmer appearing on the scene at 40yrs old (I'm making assumptions based on your 20 year career) you're going to be hard to manage... and you probably won't get hired by a 35 year old team lead. Ageist? Probably. Realistic? Yes. In my experience most older coders are contract staff with deep skills (and as a contractor, they're not in the politics or progression game).

A prospective manager will see you as bringing too much experience to the table to be a placid code-head, sitting getting stuff done and meeting deadlines.

Feel free to convince to stop thinking about this. However, if there is some practical advice you might have about actually making this change, I would appreciate it.
If you're interested in coding, why aren't you?

Spend a hundred bucks, join the iOS developer program, learn Objective C (loads of good resources around... the O'Reilly 'Head First' books are great; there's a free Stanford university iOS course on iTunes U in video). In a year's time if you've produced a high quality app that's getting some sales on the app store - and you're driven to program more, then you might have the beginnings of something. If you can't concentrate on it, you can't learn on your own or you just plain hate it - then you're only down some time and a couple of hundred bucks.

(Don't get too hung up on languages at this point. If you learn to program using a language that's reminiscent of C, then your skills will be transferrable).

Good luck!

rjbruce
Sep 21, 2012, 09:45 AM
To the OP: Don't make the mistake of thinking you need to learn a really "advanced" language like Java or C (or any C derivative). JavaScript would be a good starting choice (it's a completely different language from Java), as would Ruby or Python.

+1 to Ruby for simplicity. I wouldn't start with JavaScript though, it's not nearly as refined as some other languages and may lead to some confusion unless you know that's what you want to do, then by all means jump right in.

blesscheese
Sep 21, 2012, 12:46 PM
This, I actually disagree with, because there will also be a lot more competition from younger/cheaper "talent."

IMHO a mid-career person needs to create a niche where their value is more than just writing code. e.g. bring code to an area where you already have expertise, or bring your expertise to the code. Random example: If you've been working as a restaurant manager, what tools would have made that job easier?

B

I see this discussion has spilled onto a second page, so I'll be brief and just make some bullet points:

1. Yes, there is an age bias and has been for quite a time (not just software, but engineering in general);

2. If you want to program, your completed work / samples of work will probably be more important than any degree or qualification;

3. As you are likely aware, being mid-life and mid-career already, there is a lot more than just the work that makes a career and job fun/interesting;

4. If you are really looking at a total career change, have you ever thought about taking vocational interest tests? When I talk to people who have taken such testing (good tests, not the online quickie stuff, or people moonlighting on the side doing such things) have uniformly told me that it was invaluable for them. If I ever decided to change careers (currently, love my career, but don't love the job), I would probably do that first.

Good luck!

blesscheese
Sep 29, 2012, 03:48 PM
Coincidentally, this was just up on the Science Careers page:

Once again, Microsoft Tells Policymakers It Needs More Skilled Workers; Critics Respond (http://blogs.sciencemag.org/sciencecareers/2012/09/microsoft-sound.html)

Apparently, it is the usual, big company (i.e., M$ in this case) telling Congress it can't hire enough skilled programmers in this country so it needs more visas, etc.

But, this time, people are fighting back, esp. with higher unemployment and seemingly qualified people here raising a stink, saying M$ is addicted to cheap labor.

We shall see what happens...again, this might influence your ideas about a career change, and how you go about it.

chrono1081
Sep 30, 2012, 11:48 AM
Coincidentally, this was just up on the Science Careers page:

Once again, Microsoft Tells Policymakers It Needs More Skilled Workers; Critics Respond (http://blogs.sciencemag.org/sciencecareers/2012/09/microsoft-sound.html)

Apparently, it is the usual, big company (i.e., M$ in this case) telling Congress it can't hire enough skilled programmers in this country so it needs more visas, etc.

But, this time, people are fighting back, esp. with higher unemployment and seemingly qualified people here raising a stink, saying M$ is addicted to cheap labor.

We shall see what happens...again, this might influence your ideas about a career change, and how you go about it.

I take this as the "well rounded education" ******** colleges push just isn't working.

I've had the opportunity to work with a lot of people from other countries and they are undoubtedly leaps and bounds above us education wise. Why? "Well rounded" ended for them between 8 and 12th grade. College didn't have garbage like "WWF (wrestling) studies" (a class found at Penn State) or basket weaving (another Penn State class) or "Simulation design" (a crappy intro to flash course found at DeVry), or any numerous other garbage classes. Its straight job training for the industry you want to go in to in almost every other country.

Pile that on to nearly useless public schools and its not hard to see why there are a lack of skilled workers in the U.S..

----------

Oops at the OP:

Its never too late for a career change as others have stated. I've worked in IT for over 12 years professionally and I hate it.

I thought I wanted to be a programmer (something I've done since 16 as a hobby) but at 29 I took a class in college for 3D animation and fell in love with it.

Now in my spare time at work and home I build 3D assets for a portfolio to hopefully land a job doing what I truly love someday.

I can't imagine the next 20 years in IT : /

jrlepage
Sep 30, 2012, 06:36 PM
Hello sorry to slightly change the subject, but I actually have a very similar question and happened to stumble upon this thread.

I've just turned 30 and have a B.S. in Mathematics and an M.S. in Math Education with a couple of years of high school teaching experience. I'm very interested in getting into the "computer field" although I know that's very broad and I'm not sure where I'd fit in best.

I took courses in Visual Basic, C, and C++ back when I was 18, and I've definitely logged hundreds of hours messing around with piddly little coding projects, Linux, etc. Computers (especially gaming) have been a lifelong hobby of mine. Still would have to do LOTS of work to fill in tons of knowledge gaps and get up to speed with everything.

Would I need to go back and get a B.S. in Computer Science? Is a "software engineer" just a fancy name for a programmer or is there some distinction?

Specific to gaming, I see lots of these small, private Fine Arts schools offering programs in Game Development, but the way they advertise I'm a little wary that they're more of a scam than a way into a real career.

I'd love to get serious about joining the iOS Developer's program and actually teaching myself to write a few little apps as a hobby, but I'm afraid that unless I devote myself to it full-time, it's just going to be one of those projects that keeps getting put on the back burner while I'm busy with work.

lee1210
Sep 30, 2012, 07:50 PM
...


Do you need a B.S. in CS? No. But it would help. If you have all the basics and math from your existing degrees, the additional requirements for a CS degree may only be a few dozen credit hours, and might be worthwhile. If you have to put in all 120-130 hours from scratch, that would be a harder pill to swallow. The problem is you need the degree OR experience and you have niether. You should pursue outside projects even if you do go back to school. Getting the experience you need will be hard on your own. It's not just coding, but algorithms, problem solving (you may already have grounding here), etc. It's possible to self-teach all this, but not easy.

Software Engineer is a title. Sometimes all this means is programmer, but often it involves soup-to-nuts system-building. This means ingesting and refining requirements, system architecture, design, implementation (the coding), testing, documentation, delivery, support, and more. If you asked a Software Engineer what makes them different from a programmer they will probably tell you things like "I'll do it right", "You won't have to have me re-write the programmer's code later", "My version will work", "I'm more than just a code monkey", etc. (Yes, this is a generalization. Yes, I am a Software Engineer.) Some engineers/programmers/developers don't care if you call them any of those things, some imbue their title with great meaning. I'd take this with a grain of salt.

Regarding game schools, I'd watch this:
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/on-game-schools

No matter what else you do, definitely work on coding as a hobby. If it doesn't hold your interest, I'd discourage you from going for it professionally. If you don't love it when it's for fun, you'll hate it when it's your job.

Whatever tact you take, good luck! Also, come here with questions once you get rolling. We try to be as helpful as possible without spoon-feeding answers.

-Lee

Mikey7c8
Oct 1, 2012, 02:21 AM
It definitely can be done.

From my point of view, I'd look more at:

1. The types of programs you want to build.

Are you passionate about building desktop stuff, mobile apps or stuff that runs on the web? This will have a huge bearing onto which languages you should be looking at, as software development is not a one-size-fits-all gig - despite what some people may tell you :p

2. The people building those programs in your local area.

Local user groups (which has been mentioned) are a massively big resource esp if you're just starting out, and can also be a great source of job offers / referrals and so on.

Some languages / methodologies are bigger in some areas than others, and picking out where to start based on this may do something for you.

Do make sure you're comfortable with the idea that you'll probably have to take a massive pay / responsibility cut and will likely report to people younger than you. Am sure you've already thought this part through though.

Luck! :)

nws0291
Oct 1, 2012, 03:08 PM
I work at a multi billion dollar a year type software company and interview a lot of people for my team. Most of the college level candidates that make it to me are masters students in IT or Computer Science (top schools) for automation test engineers or straight up developers. These are what HR screens and passes along. That being said there are plenty of those that have failed miserably with their masters degress and high GPA becuase they share work and never learn themselves.

We have older guys working that might not have the schooling because it was different back in the day. Now it would be hard to get interviews at companies without connections to get past the initial screening phases.

jrlepage
Oct 1, 2012, 04:15 PM
Thanks for the feedback. I know there's a lot of crossover at the school I went to in terms of the CS program and the Math program (some math electives can be used towards the CS bachelor's and vice versa), so I might be better off than I think. I'll have to do some research on how a second bachelor's degree works... I would assume they don't make you re-take all of the general ed. stuff (things like history, english, etc.).

I'm also curious whether with my background I could just register as non-degree seeking and take the basic coursework needed to start a master's program in CS. So rather than do a whole B.S. in CS, just do what's needed to get into the M.S. program and then get an M.S. From a hiring standpoint, would someone with a B.S. in Math, M.S. in Math Ed., and M.S. in Computer Science (but zero experience) have any chance of getting their foot in the door somewhere?

I'm not even going to ask about salary, because I can almost guarantee whatever it is, it's higher than what I make as a high school teacher (at least in my state).

Thanks again,... it's a lot to think about. By the way, good luck to the OP also, and sorry for throwing my question into your thread. Just figured our questions were so similar it didn't warrant creating an entire new thread.

robvas
Oct 1, 2012, 05:35 PM
If you're a good programmer, you'll do fine. Many programmers have degrees in other fields. Out of the 5 programmers I work with, one has a degree in technical writing, two have business degrees, one has a MIS degree and the other has a CS degree. I don't have one at all.

Some companies won't even bother interviewing you if you don't have the right degree, but I think that's dumb. We've interviewed people with computer science degrees that literally can't write a function to parse a string or do a simple loop.

A masters in CS is pretty useless without experience.

See what's available in your area. Web development is probably the easiest to get into, learn HTML/Javascript/jQuery, get familiar with PHP/Python/Ruby and some frameworks like CodeIgnitor, Rails, and django. You could probably get your foot in the door as a junior dev. Read the help wanted ads in your area to figure out what to learn.

We have candidates take a 'test' where we have them fix bugs in a simple program, add a couple features, and then talk about the app and their code with them. If we think they are at least smart enough to 'get it' in a few months, they pass. But, the people who say they know this and that on their resume bomb it and we never call them back.

nws0291
Oct 1, 2012, 07:59 PM
I can't stress it enough but experience trumps paper. We recruit heavy from schools that emphasize on co-op as part of their degrees. If you can try to get an internship or paid co-op while doing your studies. Most of the time you will get offers at that company or get you interviews easier.

jrlepage
Oct 4, 2012, 12:48 PM
Hey guys, just wanted to give you an update. I spoke with an advisor at the school where I did my B.S. in Math and M.S. in Math Ed. They said that it would make the most sense (time and money-wise) to take the pre-requisites for the M.S. in Computer Science as non-degree seeking and then apply for the M.S.

The pre-reqs could be done in one semester and the M.S. could be done in three semesters (full-time). They do have internship/co-op programs with local companies.

The things I'm still debating are whether to do their combined M.S./M.B.A., or whether that would be pointless if I'm mainly interested in programming. My dream at this point is to move out to Silicon Valley and get a job out there with a decent salary as a programmer,... Only worry is whether as someone in their early 30's who just switched careers and only has a year or so of co-op/internship experience, would I be able to find a job at all?

robvas
Oct 4, 2012, 01:01 PM
"Computer science is as much about programming as astronomoy is about telescopes"

nws0291
Oct 4, 2012, 02:21 PM
I would consider the combined MS/MBA if it saves significant time and money. Otherwise you would not really use/need the MBA if you wanted to be a programmer. I would wait until the company you work for pays for the MBA when needed.

Now a lot of companies love technical background with MBA for PM type positions.

lee1210
Oct 4, 2012, 03:14 PM
If you may want to manage people or projects later, an MBA may not be a bad idea. If it's only an extra 6 months and a few thousand dollars it may be worth it. If nothing else you could help disprove the myth that engineers can't hold their own with the business types.

I haven't lived there, but I'd encourage you to broaden your idea of where you can go to get a coding job. Entryish dev in silicon valley may be a far worse quality of life than teacher wherever you are now. I just left Austin, TX and the balance of available software jobs vs. cost of living is pretty good. Not saying just look there, but silicon valley isn't "it".

-Lee

MagnusVonMagnum
Oct 4, 2012, 04:12 PM
I take this as the "well rounded education" ******** colleges push just isn't working.

A student with skills in ONE thing results in a worker class with no brains for anything else. You get engineering students that can't write properly. You get lawyers with no background in ethics or philosophy. And you get zero creativity since the students know nothing about anything but their field they are expected to get a job in. That might be great for a sweatshop like Foxconn in China, but it's no way to run a 1st world country. Creativity doesn't come from focusing on ONE thing either.


Pile that on to nearly useless public schools and its not hard to see why there are a lack of skilled workers in the U.S.

I went to a public school (and skipped my senior year to take all my classes at the local university and now have two degrees in electronic engineering and a minor in English) and let me tell you, it's not really public schools that are "useless", it's the kids in those schools that are useless. You can have the best school in the world and if kids don't want to learn or study or do homework or TRY, it won't matter ONE BIT.

You want to know what makes students from Asia different from the U.S.? It's not that our schools "suck" or that we have stupid education programs. SOME of us did QUITE WELL in public school and had zero trouble getting a scholarship, degree and job afterwards from a University or College. Rather it's the CULTURE that is different. Japan was well known for their traditional work ethic and national pride in education. They were (less so today IMO as they have become more Westernized and China has taken over the world instead) operating in a different Universe than kids in the United States. Now whether that kind of environment is one YOU might enjoy is another matter. All work and no play makes Jack a very dull boy.

And YET, all those countries you are talking about that supposedly have better schools and priorities seem to want to send their best students HERE to go to college. If our schools suck so bad, why would they send their kids to go to places like MIT and Harvard? Sorry, but you're barking up the wrong tree. Our schools don't suck. Our society/lazy-arse attitude/culture SUCKS. Kids don't want to learn to type. They want to "TEXT" with short-cut crap like "LOL". Hell, they're so lazy in the current generation they don't even want to learn to drive because they'd rather sit there and text on their iPhone instead while mommy drives. We've created a lazy-arse culture in this country and it's that culture that is driving the lack of educated students (well take that and the fact we've moved all our blue-collar jobs overseas to sweatshop labor forces like China) and those that would get a traditional middle class manufacturing job now have to get a service job instead like Burger King that pays nothing.

Combine that with corporations that no longer want to train anyone to do a job (not even college graduates) and you have a situation where even college graduates can't find a job. What good is a course in welding when they only want someone who has 10 years experience in welding? What good is a degree in engineering when they want someone who has 8 years experience in Industrial Power Systems? How many people have 5+ years experience in repairing elevators right out of school? So you have a lot of jobs out there that need very specific skills and the companies don't want to train anyone anymore because they want that money to be in profits instead. So then they whine they can't find anyone despite a glut of college student graduates with degrees in the proper field so they find some guy from India that has worked on elevators for 5 years and bring him over rather than train someone over here to do it.

No, it's not schools that are the problem. It's the lazy students on one end and the greedy corporations on the other end.

Dixi1801
Oct 5, 2012, 01:14 PM
To the OP: if you decide to do this, the best of luck to you :)

A ballsy move, but I hope you succeed and become happy with your career once again!