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farmermac
Feb 16, 2012, 03:29 PM
Has expose/spaces been fixed in mountain lion?



wiz7dome
Feb 16, 2012, 03:52 PM
Has expose/spaces been fixed in mountain lion?

This is what I'd like to know as well.


That AND "Save As"

HabSonic
Feb 16, 2012, 03:55 PM
Nope and nope. These features will probably never comeback.

lordj4000
Feb 16, 2012, 03:56 PM
Has expose/spaces been fixed in mountain lion?

You'll have to clarify for me, what's currently broken about it?

Cougarcat
Feb 16, 2012, 03:58 PM
You'll have to clarify for me, what's currently broken about it?

Some people are upset that there is no Expose for all windows, and Spaces customization is drastically reduced.

CrzyCanuck72
Feb 16, 2012, 03:58 PM
Nope and nope. These features will probably never comeback.

well there goes my hope of installing Mountain Lion

Glassed Silver
Feb 16, 2012, 04:28 PM
Some people are upset that there is no Expose for all windows, and Spaces customization is drastically reduced.

I'm extremely pi**ed when I want to move some item into a certain window of an applications with a bunch of windows open.

It's so "unapple-ish" it's beyond belief...
No... I don't think I should press Space for any of those... say maybe sometimes 5 windows to see which one it is...

Glassed Silver:mac

farmermac
Feb 16, 2012, 04:35 PM
You'll have to clarify for me, what's currently broken about it?

its unuseable productivity-wise with more then 1 window per app open. Multiple windows get stacked on top of each other so you can't see anything.

I don't care how they fix it, but we need some sort of feature to see all windows for all open apps with a press of a button

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Nope and nope. These features will probably never comeback.

Did you install it yet, or speculating?

laudern
Feb 16, 2012, 04:39 PM
its unuseable productivity-wise with more then 1 window per app open. Multiple windows get stacked on top of each other so you can't see anything.

I don't care how they fix it, but we need some sort of feature to see all windows for all open apps with a press of a button

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Did you install it yet, or speculating?

He is speculating. But what I just did was pure speculation as well

baryon
Feb 16, 2012, 04:52 PM
I'd love it if they just had a checkmark to "Group" or "Ungroup" windows from the same app… That alone would make me happy.

Spaces in a grid would make me even happier, and All-Window Exposé without the desktops thumbnails at the top would make me jump from joy. And ONE desktop background instead of one per desktop would make me even happier, I hate having to set a background for each one of my 6 desktops, one by one.

djrod
Feb 16, 2012, 04:55 PM
I'm extremely pi**ed when I want to move some item into a certain window of an applications with a bunch of windows open.

It's so "unapple-ish" it's beyond belief...
No... I don't think I should press Space for any of those... say maybe sometimes 5 windows to see which one it is...

Glassed Silver:mac

All app windows exposé is still in lion you know?

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its unuseable productivity-wise with more then 1 window per app open. Multiple windows get stacked on top of each other so you can't see anything.

I don't care how they fix it, but we need some sort of feature to see all windows for all open apps with a press of a button

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Did you install it yet, or speculating?
In mission control try hitting the spacebar once and then, move the mouse cursor across the windows apps

baryon
Feb 16, 2012, 05:03 PM
All app windows exposé is still in lion you know?

No, it's not. You either get Mission Control, which only shows one window per app, all other windows are behind it, or you can get App Exposé, which only shows windows of one app. You cannot see all windows, regardless of what you do.


In mission control try hitting the spacebar once and then, move the mouse cursor across the windows apps

While that worked in Snow Leopard, it doesn't work in Lion.

motorazr
Feb 16, 2012, 05:27 PM
I'm extremely pi**ed when I want to move some item into a certain window of an applications with a bunch of windows open.

It's so "unapple-ish" it's beyond belief...
No... I don't think I should press Space for any of those... say maybe sometimes 5 windows to see which one it is...

Glassed Silver:mac

That's my point .... all the sudden I'm forced to have window on top of window on top of window to move things around .... and if I want to use mission control, I need to press the space bar over and over and over .... it used to be one space, and I could arrow through to find what I needed. There are a lot of great people working at apple .. hasn't someone noticed how many key strokes and mouse clicks they've added?

romills
Feb 16, 2012, 06:49 PM
That's my point .... all the sudden I'm forced to have window on top of window on top of window to move things around .... and if I want to use mission control, I need to press the space bar over and over and over .... it used to be one space, and I could arrow through to find what I needed. There are a lot of great people working at apple .. hasn't someone noticed how many key strokes and mouse clicks they've added?

try this.. 4 finger slide up to mission control, hover mouse over application you want to open, then two finger slide up to separate the open windows, then select the window you want.. Is this the type of control you want?

bushido
Feb 16, 2012, 07:06 PM
thank god they didnt bring it back, i may be in the minority but i never used spaces before lion. its so neat to simply swipe left and right

klaxamazoo
Feb 16, 2012, 07:23 PM
try this.. 4 finger slide up to mission control, hover mouse over application you want to open, then two finger slide up to separate the open windows, then select the window you want.. Is this the type of control you want?

Doesn't work. The Windows still overlap and I can't see my content. This is not a good substitute for showing all Windows.

And why should it take so many more steps?
10.6 took one mouse move to a corner, followed by selecting the window.
10.7 requires a mouse move/gesture, followed by a selection of an app, followed by another gesture to kind of spread out the windows more, or some Space bar clicks or selecting App Expose and then selecting the window.

klaxamazoo
Feb 16, 2012, 07:25 PM
thank god they didnt bring it back, i may be in the minority but i never used spaces before lion. its so neat to simply swipe left and right


There is no reason a swipe left-right couldn't work if an All Window Expose was enabled and/or a See All Spaces either. The swipe gesture is just navigation...

cmChimera
Feb 16, 2012, 07:53 PM
I just want to name my desktops instead of having generic desktop 2 and desktop 3. That and a way to invoke app expose from mission control. That's all I ask.

philxor
Feb 16, 2012, 08:21 PM
In addition to the other issues mentioned they completely took away the usability of Spaces/Expose when using multiple monitors. As much as I hope they add a checkbox in ML for "Turn off MC and use SL Expose/Spaces" I've resigned myself to the fact Apple completely broke it and will never fix it.

mrblack927
Feb 16, 2012, 08:40 PM
In addition to the other issues mentioned they completely took away the usability of Spaces/Expose when using multiple monitors. As much as I hope they add a checkbox in ML for "Turn off MC and use SL Expose/Spaces" I've resigned myself to the fact Apple completely broke it and will never fix it.

Amen. Lately Apple had been completely ruining the experience for those of us with multiple monitors. I don't get it.

djrod
Feb 17, 2012, 02:06 AM
No, it's not. You either get Mission Control, which only shows one window per app, all other windows are behind it, or you can get App Exposé, which only shows windows of one app. You cannot see all windows, regardless of what you do.



While that worked in Snow Leopard, it doesn't work in Lion.

Sorry,I meant App Expose, that's the one is not gone, but the spacebar trick works for me in Lion 10.7.3

motorazr
Feb 17, 2012, 12:29 PM
try this.. 4 finger slide up to mission control, hover mouse over application you want to open, then two finger slide up to separate the open windows, then select the window you want.. Is this the type of control you want?

I wish it were... when I found that it gave me hope... but if I need to see specific file details, I still have to use the space bar and mouse over each individual window, or go into the app and use app expose ... my specific example of when this is a problem is when I've got 3-4 ftp windows open in cyber duck and they all look moderately similar.. as well as 2-20 things in dreamweaver that look nearly identical :(

I'll still keep my faint hope glowing that apple will decide to change their mind. I really liked most of the UI refinements of lion (though I'd say the scroll bars could stay visible but transparent...).. its just little workflow changes / shortcomings that add up to major frustration on projects.

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Amen. Lately Apple had been completely ruining the experience for those of us with multiple monitors. I don't get it.

Funny how that seems to be the case, even though they're touting how many displays you can daisy chain with thunderbolt..

mobilehaathi
Feb 17, 2012, 12:34 PM
try this.. 4 finger slide up to mission control, hover mouse over application you want to open, then two finger slide up to separate the open windows, then select the window you want.. Is this the type of control you want?

How can I do that with one flick of my mouse into a corner?

dba415
Feb 17, 2012, 01:19 PM
Has there ever been an explanation from Apple on why they inexplicably removed one of the best functions/features in Leopard and Snow Leopard. Everyone I know back then championed how amazing Expose was, and they removed it from Lion and replaced it with something that is MUCH WORSE.

Expose is THE REASON I downgraded from Lion to Snow Leopard, and will continue to be the reason I may not upgrade to Mountain Lion despite it having some cool features. Expose is the MOST IMPORTANT feature for me.

That and also I never understood the "versions" feature, just bring back "save as".

klaxamazoo
Feb 17, 2012, 01:21 PM
How can I do that with one flick of my mouse into a corner?

It doesn't work anyway because it only moves the Windows a little. They still overlap. I posted a screenshot earlier.

mobilehaathi
Feb 17, 2012, 01:27 PM
It doesn't work anyway because it only moves the Windows a little. They still overlap. I posted a screenshot earlier.

Oops, I missed that.

Ugh, worthless. This is one of the major reasons I haven't updated any of my computers to Lion.

WSR
Feb 18, 2012, 02:02 PM
Though I'm sure many will like the new features of ML, Apple has continued to ignore the mistakes of Lion.

By removing features like Expose and Spaces as it is in SL, they have made many users upset, and Apple continues to ignore this part of its user base.

I'm not planning to change from SL until they address these and other issues.

Blipp
Feb 18, 2012, 03:40 PM
well there goes my hope of installing Mountain Lion

I sympathize with the fact that you miss Expose and Spaces but being left 2 OS's behind is going to put you in an even worse state. I wish you luck but I don't expect you'll be able to hold on to Snow Leopard for much longer.

Krazy Bill
Feb 18, 2012, 03:50 PM
I wish you luck but I don't expect you'll be able to hold on to Snow Leopard for much longer.Why not? Will Apple send us a mysterious firmware update that nukes it? Will all the apps currently on my SL system suddenly stop working the day ML is released? :eek:

Jagardn
Feb 18, 2012, 07:06 PM
Why not? Will Apple send us a mysterious firmware update that nukes it? Will all the apps currently on my SL system suddenly stop working the day ML is released? :eek:

Yup, or maybe do something like...stop developing any updates. In another year or two 3rd party developers will probably drop it too.

farmermac
Feb 18, 2012, 07:43 PM
there's still lots of mac's running leopard, and tiger.

I guess im not too concerned with the lack of updates. Of the people I know using Mac's, only one person liked the changes of Lion overall (my dad, basically computer illeterate)

wafl iron
Feb 18, 2012, 08:03 PM
http://cdn.dipity.com/uploads/events/a997631eb8d88a0e2c28de5be2cbffd4_1M.png

Krazy Bill
Feb 18, 2012, 09:14 PM
Of the people I know using Mac's, only one person liked the changes of Lion overall (my dad, basically computer illeterate)And this folks... pretty much sums up Lion. (And OS X in general from this day forward).

I've just spent the last 2 hours in Mountain Goat... running it from an external. My wife thought I'd finally gone off the deep end when I rebooted back into Snow Leopard, got on my knees and kissed my macbook. :(

DeckMan
Feb 19, 2012, 04:19 PM
Did you all post feedback? http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

I'm not saying they definitely will fix the problems with it if enough people complain, but it's more likely to help than chatting about it here. Just saying. :)

Also, you can add me to the list of people who actually liked the changes, because I always found it really hard to find the right window in Exposé if I have ~ 15 windows or more.

finkmacunix
Feb 19, 2012, 04:41 PM
thank god they didnt bring it back, i may be in the minority but i never used spaces before lion. its so neat to simply swipe left and right

Same here, Spaces confused me before Lion. I use Mission Control all the time...
I even try to three-finger swipe up in Windows... Of course it doesn't work...

Now, I admit that when you have a lot of windows open, it's hard to see which one is which, But I usually have them Minimized, or in a different space.

As for "Save As"...

Ever heard of "Save a Copy"?

WSR
Feb 19, 2012, 04:56 PM
Speaking for myself, I have sent a complaint to Apple and will probably will again once ML has come out and I have a better impression of what ML has changed. I'm sure others have done the same.

We know that some like the changes, but others like myself see Lion and in turn ML as losing many of the feature that we use frequently, and want to see the features returned without the loss of the new features that some do like.

SL's Expose: This should be able to easily work in Lion beside Mission Control since it is just a way of viewing open windows like the Dock and Apps Switcher.

Also, you can add me to the list of people who actually liked the changes, because I always found it really hard to find the right window in Exposé if I have ~ 15 windows or more.

This is what makes Spaces especially as it is in SL so great. You can just sort your apps by the task, i.e. email in 1 Space, word processor in a 2nd, etc. Then, you only worry about the number of windows per Space. Also, if you want an App to be always visible like Quicktime, you just set to be in all Spaces.
If Apple just gave us an option between Classic Spaces and Spaces in Mission Control, this would make many, if not all, people happy.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 05:03 PM
Doesn't work. The Windows still overlap and I can't see my content. This is not a good substitute for showing all Windows.

And why should it take so many more steps?
10.6 took one mouse move to a corner, followed by selecting the window.
10.7 requires a mouse move/gesture, followed by a selection of an app, followed by another gesture to kind of spread out the windows more, or some Space bar clicks or selecting App Expose and then selecting the window.

I have mouse button 4 and button 5 set to respectively : "Mission Control" and "App Expose". So it's button 4, choose app, button 5.

And guess what, if I have 3 or more apps with 3 or more Windows each, pressing 3 clicks to achieve what 1 click did before is still a time saver, since I save in overall visual scanning.

Before, All Windows expose would be just a big mess. App expose and your favorite app switching method is cleaner and faster for me, as I don't like visual scanning.

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This is what makes Spaces especially as it is in SL so great. You can just sort your apps by the task, i.e. email in 1 Space, word processor in a 2nd, etc. Then, you only worry about the number of windows per Space. Also, if you want an App to be always visible like Quicktime, you just set to be in all Spaces.
If Apple just gave us an option between Classic Spaces and Spaces in Mission Control, this would make many, if not all, people happy.

Uh ? I do this with Mission Control on Lion. Chrome is set to Desktop 1, Xcode to desktop 2, Photoshop/Illustrator to Desktop 3, Virtual Box to desktop 4. I have itunes set to "All desktops" so it's just stickied whereever I am working so I can change out my tunes...

And then I get App Expose to switch between the windows of only the active application, so I get less visual scanning (iTunes doesn't pop up into my XCode windows).

Frankly, I love Mission Control. I must be computer illiterate or something listening to some folks around here. :confused:

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 05:16 PM
This is what makes Spaces especially as it is in SL so great. You can just sort your apps by the task, i.e. email in 1 Space, word processor in a 2nd, etc. Then, you only worry about the number of windows per Space. Also, if you want an App to be always visible like Quicktime, you just set to be in all Spaces.
If Apple just gave us an option between Classic Spaces and Spaces in Mission Control, this would make many, if not all, people happy.

What you describe hasn't been removed, it still exists in MC. Just because you can't find it, doesn't mean it ain't there :)

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Frankly, I love Mission Control. I must be computer illiterate or something listening to some folks around here. :confused:

Don't be silly. You're not illiterate, you're just not a "power" user ;).

But seriously, your solution, or doing the same with hot corners (or even assigning a desktop for each app that you use with multiple windows and then assigning a hotkey to it), achieves things more quickly and elegantly. Of course, it requires remembering your customizations, and taking the time to customize things... Maybe that's what people are complaining about? They don't like to configure their computer experience to make their individual work environments optimal. This whole mission control business boggles my mind.

The more I read about it, the more I get the distinct impression everyone who is complaining simply doesn't want to think of new, and often better, ways of doing things and just want to stick with the old things. But in that case, I don't see why they want to upgrade to a new OS. Perhaps one day I'll understand though.

DeckMan
Feb 19, 2012, 05:32 PM
The more I read about it, the more I get the distinct impression everyone who is complaining simply doesn't want to think of new, and often better, ways of doing things and just want to stick with the old things. But in that case, I don't see why they want to upgrade to a new OS. Perhaps one day I'll understand though.

This might apply to a lot of people who complain, but I accept that some could really be more productive with Exposé than with Mission Control. For example, I really didn't like the grid-based changes they made in Snow Leopard, because all windows turned to the same size in Exposé - no more recognizing a window based on its size in comparison to other windows. So I was thrilled to see they brought back comparative sizes in Mission Control.

What you describe hasn't been removed, it still exists in MC. Just because you can't find it, doesn't mean it ain't there :)

Wait, what do you mean by that? Is there a way to make Mission Control display all windows, the old way?

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 05:38 PM
Wait, what do you mean by that? Is there a way to make Mission Control display all windows, the old way?

That's not what his example described. So far as I know, no that feature doesn't exist. But there are comparable alternatives, see KnightWRX's example as a case in point.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 05:48 PM
Don't be silly. You're not illiterate, you're just not a "power" user ;).

I remember when "Power User" defined users that actually knew how to use a computer and understood how computers/OSes/software worked. It seems a lot of people in the Mac/Apple community thinks "Power User" means users who use fast processors and tons of RAM whether they need them or not.

Baffling.

DeckMan
Feb 19, 2012, 05:49 PM
That's not what his example described. So far as I know, no that feature doesn't exist. But there are comparable alternatives, see KnightWRX's example as a case in point.

Oh, okay. Yeah, the described use case would still work pretty much the same, just with App Exposé instead of Mission Control - and the new Spaces implementation would make it even easier because the number of desktop can be modified right from within MC and doesn't have to be a product (i.e. can be any number now, even prime). And QuickTime can still be set to be on all spaces, in case you meant that :)

farmermac
Feb 19, 2012, 06:19 PM
Well the 2 circle jerkers in this thread can agree all they want that Mission Control is better then Expose, but it's just not the reality. You can tell yourself over and over that Apple can do no wrong, but the fact is Apple screws up often. sometimes they fix their mistakes (3rg gen ipod shuffle buttons brought back in 4th gen). They like to dumb down certain features until there's really no way to use an app or feature in a professional environment. It's good for the large percentage of Apple users who check email, facebook and itunes but sucks for people who have to work on a computer for 6-8 hours a day as part of their job.

Another fumble with Lion is the way Apple changed virtually all the trackpad gestures around. What a cluster...Its akin to taking the option, control and command button on the keyboards and switching their locations and functions around for no reason. Even if Apple did that, knightWRX would come in here and tell us it makes sense.

Let me guess, knightWRX, you use "natural" scrolling?

DeckMan
Feb 19, 2012, 06:24 PM
Rofl. Are you seriously playing the fanboy card? Well I do use natural scrolling (though you didn't ask me). I guess I must really be in love with Apple. If they advertised jumping off cliffs, I would totally do it. (Just saying, I realize you might not even have meant me.)

Apple does screw up often, but I don't consider Mission Control one of their screwups - at least not completely, just in part. That's just my opinion though, just like your opinion is that the old Exposé is superior.

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 06:25 PM
Rofl. Are you seriously playing the fanboy card? Well I do use natural scrolling (though you didn't ask me). I guess I must really be in love with Apple. If they advertised jumping off cliffs, I would totally do it.

Apple does screw up often, but I don't consider Mission Control one of their screwups - at least not completely, just in part. That's just my opinion though, just like your opinion is that the old Exposé is superior.

Agreed, and well said. I too use natural scrolling, and though I appear the fanboy of MC in this thread, I have complained my fair share regarding Apple on prior occasions.

klaxamazoo
Feb 19, 2012, 06:33 PM
I have mouse button 4 and button 5 set to respectively : "Mission Control" and "App Expose". So it's button 4, choose app, button 5.

And guess what, if I have 3 or more apps with 3 or more Windows each, pressing 3 clicks to achieve what 1 click did before is still a time saver, since I save in overall visual scanning.

Before, All Windows expose would be just a big mess. App expose and your favorite app switching method is cleaner and faster for me, as I don't like visual scanning.

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See that is the difference between those that Like Mission Control and those that don't.

If you organize content by association i.e. by App. Then MC is wonderful. However, if content is just content, independent of its associated Application, then MC is a pain.

Everybody's mind works differently. Personally, I am incredibly visual, I can scan through 40-60 windows in OSX 10.5 Expose/Spaces (10.6 ruined it because it messes up the proportional sizing) spread across 4 different Spaces much faster than I can remember which application had the content I am looking for, switch to that application, then invoke App Expose, and then try to find the non-proportionally scaled window.

For me content is simply a visual image and finding a matching image is incredibly simple when that content is not covered up by five other windows.

MC requires much more active thinking for me than 10.5 Expose/Space and I find that MC breaks my concentration and flow of thought.

I think the MC versus 10.5 Expose/Spaces argument/discussion comes down to the fact that peoples minds work differently and MC reverses which type of mind benefits. i.e. people who found 10.5 messy and too much work seem to enjoy MC. People that liked the visual nature of 10.5 find MC too much work and annoying.

Can I work with MC. Sure, but it is annoying every time I use it. Hopefully a developer will be able to work out a powerful alternative. I pretty sure someone will because things like TotalFinder exist and that brought a good tabbed Finder experience.

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 06:46 PM
See that is the difference between those that Like Mission Control and those that don't.

If you organize content by association i.e. by App. Then MC is wonderful. However, if content is just content, independent of its associated Application, then MC is a pain.

Everybody's mind works differently. Personally, I am incredibly visual, I can scan through 40-60 windows in OSX 10.5 Expose/Spaces (10.6 ruined it because it messes up the proportional sizing) spread across 4 different Spaces much faster than I can remember which application had the content I am looking for, switch to that application, then invoke App Expose, and then try to find the non-proportionally scaled window.

For me content is simply a visual image and finding a matching image is incredibly simple when that content is not covered up by five other windows.

MC requires much more active thinking for me than 10.5 Expose/Space and I find that MC breaks my concentration and flow of thought.

I think the MC versus 10.5 Expose/Spaces argument/discussion comes down to the fact that peoples minds work differently and MC reverses which type of mind benefits. i.e. people who found 10.5 messy and too much work seem to enjoy MC. People that liked the visual nature of 10.5 find MC too much work and annoying.

Can I work with MC. Sure, but it is annoying every time I use it. Hopefully a developer will be able to work out a powerful alternative. I pretty sure someone will because things like TotalFinder exist and that brought a good tabbed Finder experience.

Excellent description of the difference, so far as I can tell. You helped me sympathize with the complaints, finally. I guess my brain just remembers what apps I have open, even when there are many, so I only need to find the windows within them. And since I pretty much always work with the same groups of apps, force of habits makes me remember my hotkeys/configurations. But, if remembering all that requires effort, that would probably slow down my work and constantly irritate me to no end.

Thanks for making things clear.

NZPilgrim
Feb 19, 2012, 06:49 PM
From what I keep seeing in all these mission control sucks threads it is a vocal few that are touting the benefits of spaces/expose rather than the majority. I do think you have to start realising that you're now an edge case, and Apple don't really do edge cases.

Some of the arguments put forward for spaces/expose have been quite compelling and if those people haven't already then I would suggest sending that constructive feedback directly to Apple. It's possible that if enough people provide intelligent discourse then Apple might have an incentive to add the functionality back in (as they have done in the past).

Beyond that, there's nothing stopping any of you from learning how to program and creating your own version of spaces/expose. Or see if someone in the open source community feels the same way as you and is willing to commit time to creating it. Apple aren't the only ones who can provide this functionality you know.

astrorider
Feb 19, 2012, 06:53 PM
try this.. 4 finger slide up to mission control, hover mouse over application you want to open, then two finger slide up to separate the open windows, then select the window you want.. Is this the type of control you want?

This is great! Coupling this two finger slide up with the spacebar on the window works really well. I thought I knew all the mission control tricks but I guess I missed this. I wish this two finger slide up would work on the desktop icons too, though.

I definitely found the changes from Exposé/Spaces to Mission Control jarring. After all I do all my programming on a 13" Macbook Air, never hooked up to an external monitor, so Exposé/Spaces were a pretty fundamental part of my workflow. However, with a little research and time learning the new way I've pretty well warmed up to Mission Control. I'm hopeful they keep improving Mission Control over time...I'm not sure I can take any more paradigm shifts in window management.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 06:57 PM
Well the 2 circle jerkers in this thread can agree all they want that Mission Control is better then Expose, but it's just not the reality.

Ad-hominem aside (did you really need to insult people based on the fact they have a different opinion than you ? Debate the content, not the posters), reality is not your subjective opinion, no matter how much you want it to be. Mission Control is better than Expose for me and others. That's the reality of it. You may not like for whatever reason (be it lack of understanding of how it works or plain resistance to change), but your opinion is not more real than mine on the subject.

So please, refrain from insulting me and others because we happen to disagree with you. In fact, just today, I showed a few people a few tricks with the new features that changed, at least partly I hope, their minds about it. Keep an open mind about things and you'll be amazed at how much your stress levels diminish in life.

Let me guess, knightWRX, you use "natural" scrolling?

First thing I disabled on Lion. Works great on touch screens, works like crap with scroll wheels and touch pads.

Second was "Hide scrollbars", I want my scrollbars on all the time, they are an indication of how much document is available up and down from the position I am in and having to "scroll" to show them is a waste of time.

Third was "display dock blueish spots". I want to know what apps are running by quickly scanning the dock, so I can close whatever needs closing depending on what I'm about to do (plugging into the LAN at work with Skype running = Big no no).

In fact, there's tons of stuff I reverted back to "Snow Leopard" mode, I don't like all the changes in Lion. Launchpad ? Haven't seen it yet, probably never will. iCloud ? Nope, not for me.

But feel free to make assumptions about me just because I happen to like Mission Control and how it fixed Spaces/Expose for me.

I'm far from a "Apple does no wrong" kind of guy. If you've even read my post history, you'd know I'm very often critical of Apple and what they do. Mission Control just isn't one of those things. Neither is Gatekeeper yet (though I remain cautious about it) or the removal of X11 and Java or Autosave/Versions.

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Excellent description of the difference, so far as I can tell. You helped me sympathize with the complaints, finally. I guess my brain just remembers what apps I have open, even when there are many, so I only need to find the windows within them. And since I pretty much always work with the same groups of apps, force of habits makes me remember my hotkeys/configurations. But, if remembering all that requires effort, that would probably slow down my work and constantly irritate me to no end.

Thanks for making things clear.

I'm too OCD to have more than 1 app for a kind of content. I like organization and discipline on my computer. Code ? Xcode. Image manipulation ? Gimp. HTML ? Chrome. Everything works by app. So be it using Mouse 4 or 4 fingers up or CMD-TAB, I switch to the app for the content I need and then use Button 5 or 4 fingers down to get app expose and find the actual content I want.

So really, just popping up a bunch of Windows of different apps to me was complete lunacy. I never used Expose prior to Lion, everytime I did I would cry a little inside to the big mess that would pop up.

klaxamazoo
Feb 19, 2012, 07:22 PM
I'm too OCD to have more than 1 app for a kind of content. I like organization and discipline on my computer. Code ? Xcode. Image manipulation ? Gimp. HTML ? Chrome. Everything works by app. So be it using Mouse 4 or 4 fingers up or CMD-TAB, I switch to the app for the content I need and then use Button 5 or 4 fingers down to get app expose and find the actual content I want.

So really, just popping up a bunch of Windows of different apps to me was complete lunacy. I never used Expose prior to Lion, everytime I did I would cry a little inside to the big mess that would pop up.

See, that is why people like me in an uproar over Mission Control. We had something that, for us, was pure beauty. It was why I switched to OS X. To have that replaced with something that makes me "cry a little" is so tragic (for me, wonderful for you).

It would be great if Apple figured out a method that made everyone feel that little tinge of joy when something "just works" they way that they do.

For me, MC would work well enough if the two finger up to spread actually spread the windows enough such that they didn't overlap.

It would work even better if it could show more than one Space at at time because, for me, Applications like Preview are usually open on every Space because different content is mixed together. i.e. I'll have Preview windows of images that I'm bringing into InDesign for the next figure all together on one Space, and then Preview will have pdf's of Papers I'm citing on another Space combined with "Papers2" by Mekentosj, Bookends and Bibdesk, while a third Space might have static .pdf's of papers I've already written along with .doc versions of my current paper to make sure that what I'm writing is both consistent and different enough to avoid self-plagiarism.

It is a different workflow and everybody works different. I really hope that Apple or someone else can bring the 10.5 visual experience to 10.7/10.8 (without sacrificing the MC workflow that works for others) because Apple added a lot of nice features that are nice but not worth living with the current version of MC for me.

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 07:22 PM
I'm too OCD to have more than 1 app for a kind of content. I like organization and discipline on my computer. Code ? Xcode. Image manipulation ? Gimp. HTML ? Chrome. Everything works by app. So be it using Mouse 4 or 4 fingers up or CMD-TAB, I switch to the app for the content I need and then use Button 5 or 4 fingers down to get app expose and find the actual content I want.

Exactly. And it's not just about "preferences", having order and discipline actually saves substantial amounts of time in the long run (making it more productive). So to avoid clutter, I just have one desktop for each of those apps. Now, some apps I really like in full-screen, others not, so I do wish I could set a strict order in MC that never moves, from most used app/desktop/screen far left, to the least used one on the far right. But MC won't let that happen. You either let it rearrange things for you, in which case a few bugs can make it do weird tricks from time to time, or you can deselect auto-arrange, but then all the desktops are before the full screen apps, which can be annoying. Small complaint on MC. By and large though, it's pretty nice and have greatly optimized the way I work. Much faster than expose/spaces. Wasn't spaces limited in the number of them you could have? If I remember I'd have to have a bunch of apps all congested within a single desktop. It was a mess.


So really, just popping up a bunch of Windows of different apps to me was complete lunacy. I never used Expose prior to Lion, everytime I did I would cry a little inside to the big mess that would pop up.

I always had to, and still always feel the need to, actively resist from trying to optimize other people's workflows. It seems so simple to me. Invest a little time now, get huge returns in time saved over prolonged periods. Who wouldn't want that? Unless your idea of a break is scanning a cluster f*&ck of a desktop/computing environment. But as klaxa said, perhaps that is simplifying things.

I do think though, there is a technique, skill, art, to working efficiently.

philxor
Feb 19, 2012, 07:23 PM
From what I keep seeing in all these mission control sucks threads it is a vocal few that are touting the benefits of spaces/expose rather than the majority. I do think you have to start realising that you're now an edge case, and Apple don't really do edge cases.

Some of the arguments put forward for spaces/expose have been quite compelling and if those people haven't already then I would suggest sending that constructive feedback directly to Apple. It's possible that if enough people provide intelligent discourse then Apple might have an incentive to add the functionality back in (as they have done in the past).

Beyond that, there's nothing stopping any of you from learning how to program and creating your own version of spaces/expose. Or see if someone in the open source community feels the same way as you and is willing to commit time to creating it. Apple aren't the only ones who can provide this functionality you know.

It isn't really a vocal few, there are quite a few people who would rather have Expose/Spaces back the way it was as opposed to using MC. From MacRumors to plenty of blog comments and even some tech blogs themselves. I have sent feedback to Apple which was constructive and outlined my workflow which MC eliminated.

The biggest issue for me is the multiple monitor support, there is just no way to duplicate the previous functionality in any way. Previously I could do one motion and move a window from any desktop on any other screen to a desktop on any other screen. Now I have to switch monitors, move stuff around between the same desktop on two monitors, then move things around between desktops...

NZPilgrim
Feb 19, 2012, 08:10 PM
It isn't really a vocal few, there are quite a few people who would rather have Expose/Spaces back the way it was as opposed to using MC. From MacRumors to plenty of blog comments and even some tech blogs themselves. I have sent feedback to Apple which was constructive and outlined my workflow which MC eliminated.

The biggest issue for me is the multiple monitor support, there is just no way to duplicate the previous functionality in any way. Previously I could do one motion and move a window from any desktop on any other screen to a desktop on any other screen. Now I have to switch monitors, move stuff around between the same desktop on two monitors, then move things around between desktops...

I understand where you are coming from but you need to look at this as a percentages game. If you look at the sales figures Apple keep releasing the number of Macs being purchased have increased every year for the past number of years. That's a whole lot of new people in the eco-system who for the most part are probably pretty happy with the direction of things (or who just don't care either way).

In the past techies and professionals made up a larger percentage of Mac users but these days we are in the minority. Even if every single one of us agreed that spaces/expose was the right way to do things (and we don't all agree) what percentage of total Mac users would we be? Even if thousands of tech bloggers complained they're still a minority.

You only have to read Job's biography to note that Apple generally does it's own thing and only reverses course when it faces significant resistance. If you all believe so passionately in spaces/expose then get that groundswell of support, engage with Apple and make them see that providing an option to switch between the old and new is something a lot of people want.

Ultimately, while debating things on Mac Rumors is fun, it's not really going to advance your cause.

Jagardn
Feb 19, 2012, 08:15 PM
So really, just popping up a bunch of Windows of different apps to me was complete lunacy. I never used Expose prior to Lion, everytime I did I would cry a little inside to the big mess that would pop up.

My thoughts exactly, Mission Control has made it much better in my opinion. I must fall in computer illiterate group as well. I guess being a developer and graphic designer takes me out of the "Power User" group.:D

NZPilgrim
Feb 19, 2012, 08:46 PM
My thoughts exactly, Mission Control has made it much better in my opinion. I must fall in computer illiterate group as well. I guess being a developer and graphic designer takes me out of the "Power User" group.:D

Never thought I'd see the day when us developers were removed from the power user group :)

Forgot to mention in my previous reply to philxor that I fully agree on the multi-monitor issue. While I don't currently use multiple monitors in my Mac setup I spent the better part of the last decade with dual monitors in the Windows world and so far everything I've read about Lions multi-monitor support seems a bit brain dead. Definitely something to keep an eye on as further developer releases of Mountain Lion are dropped.

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 09:22 PM
Ultimately, while debating things on Mac Rumors is fun, it's not really going to advance your cause.

I disagree, I bet many very intelligent people at Apple carefully thought this change through, so to have a marginal amount of complaints sent their way isn't going to cause them to reconsider their position. However, if after arguing with a bunch of us here as to what needs to be improved in MC, you are capable of formulating a very well thought out response to Apple's change of course, then, and only then, they might just listen, should you have enough support behind that proposal.

Hashing things out here, so far as I can see, would help ameliorate what needs to be changed, or can be changed, provided of course that the way we argue about things here doesn't result in hurling "fanboy, computer newbie, etc." at each other.

Krazy Bill
Feb 19, 2012, 11:33 PM
Hashing things out here, so far as I can see, would help ameliorate what needs to be changed,Pissin' in the wind iffen you ask me.

Apple already answered the volley of complaints to show how much they didn't listen. Their reply simply ML. All is still well inside that distortion field it seems.

I'm actually kind of glad they showed their hand this early. Give some of us time to decide if OS X is really the platform we want.

KnightWRX
Feb 20, 2012, 04:06 AM
I'm actually kind of glad they showed their hand this early. Give some of us time to decide if OS X is really the platform we want.

Yeah, there's so many other choices out there with "All Windows Expose" over every "Spaces". :rolleyes:

baryon
Feb 20, 2012, 10:24 AM
Consider Spaces:

http://gigapple.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/all-spaces-plus-expose.jpg

… and Mission Control:

325407

In the first screenshot, I can see ALL open windows, in all spaces, at once, in the largest possible size they can fit. Pressing Space over each one will make that one even bigger.

In the second screenshot, try to quickly tell which is the current desktop (tip: it's the one with the white border around the thumbnail). Moreover, try to quickly preview other windows, on other desktops. You can't. You have to swipe to those desktops one by one, linearly. THEN you really lose track of which desktop you're on now.

Another issue is this: no, I don't instinctively know what app the window I'm looking for is in. Sometimes I have a PDF open in Safari, and another PDF in Preview. All I know is that I want to get to a certain PDF, I don't remember which was the one in Preview and which was in Safari. What if I have 4 Pages documents open on 4 different desktops, clicking "Pages" in the dock will only show me one of the documents. If I want to use App Exposé, I need to first click Pages in the dock, which will yank me to another desktop, and THEN activate App Exposé, and then choose the window I want, which will probably also yank me to yet another desktop.

The only thing I like about Mission Control are the gestures. But why couldn't Apple just implement gestures to control Spaces? 3-finger swipe up/down/left/right to navigate between spaces, 4-fingers-up to enter Spaces Overview Mode (like top screenshot), and 4-fingers down to enter Exposé without entering Spaces. Why not?

I think that in Mission Control, it's extremely confusing that the top thumbnails are a different size than the large "current desktop" in the middle, which, in case you're in a full screen app, isn't even your current desktop, but rather Desktop 1 for some baffling reason.

Basically, in Mission Control, there is absolutely no way to see all your open windows at once if you have more than one desktop, while in Snow Leopard there is. To me, that makes Snow Leopard's window management better, no matter what.

KnightWRX
Feb 20, 2012, 10:56 AM
Basically, in Mission Control, there is absolutely no way to see all your open windows at once if you have more than one desktop, while in Snow Leopard there is. To me, that makes Snow Leopard's window management better, no matter what.

They're all there at the top. :rolleyes:

I suggest you use different wallpapers (which you now can) if you can't see that the middle one is the one you wanted. I didn't even need to click your thumbnail to recognize it.

klaxamazoo
Feb 20, 2012, 11:36 AM
They're all there at the top. :rolleyes:

I suggest you use different wallpapers (which you now can) if you can't see that the middle one is the one you wanted. I didn't even need to click your thumbnail to recognize it.

They aren't there at the top. The Spaces at the top show the current State of that Space i.e. if you have a five windows open and with a large excel sheet, then you only see the Excel sheet.

Here is a good example. Somewhere in this Setup is 14 images that I am currently analyzing. Can you find it with just two mouse moves as 10.5 Expose/Spaces could?


Guess what, you can't see it. I have to flick through six different Spaces to find it. Or go through what baryon described. What a pain in the ass compared to 10.5 Expose/Spaces where everything was laid out, easy to find, and easy to move around. None of this Hide-and-Seek junk.


KnightWRX, it is great that you categorize and organize by content. That makes Mission Control easy for you to use and better than 10.5 Expose/Spaces, which, as you said, was too unorganized.

But there are a lot of people like me that are Visually oriented. Content is content, and exists solely as an image in my head and all I need is that content laid out with proportional scaling and I can find it is less time than it takes Mission Control to go through its animation. Visual pattern recognition dominates as an organization scheme for people like me. Mission Control requires that Content be associated with both an App and a Space. 10.5 Expose/Spaces just requires that you know what you content looks like, seems like a lot less work.

Can Mission Control still get the job done? Sure, but I cry a little each time I invoke it. Just like I could drive to work, but I die inside a little each time I do so I moved close to the University in an area with a decent bike path.

The MC process is a bad experience for me, and it leaves me wanting for something else. This feeling was the same reason I left Windows XP for OSX 10.3. Windows XP has sub-par Content Management as compared to OSX 10.3. For 10.7/10.8, if a Developer doesn't fill the Expose/Spaces void I leave OSX once I need new hardware. Expose and Spaces clones exist for Windows and now Papers2 will be on Windows, so all the major things I need already exist. Hopefully a Developer will make a good OSX 10.5 Expose/Spaces replacement in the next couple years before it is time to upgrade my system again.

daniel-b
Feb 20, 2012, 02:25 PM
Consider Spaces:

What if I have 4 Pages documents open on 4 different desktops, clicking "Pages" in the dock will only show me one of the documents. If I want to use App Exposé, I need to first click Pages in the dock, which will yank me to another desktop, and THEN activate App Exposé, and then choose the window I want, which will probably also yank me to yet another desktop.



Hi all,

This is my first ever post to this forum. I have a 2011 Mac Mini which is my first Mac since 1999 and my first experience with Mac OSX ( I used to be an administrator of a big Mac network in the 90s and I owned a blue iBook). I mostly use it for music (Live and Logic + Lemur and some other stuff on my iPad. I am quite blown away by the ease of configuring wireless Midi and other esoteric stuff) but since I am also a closet Linux geek, I am getting to know the the more hardcore Unix side of Mac OSX too.

Anyway, to the point. I have never seen this mentioned anywhere on the forum, but if you do cmd-tab to switch between apps, and then press up- or down-arrow while switching, it will take you into expose for the selected app, and allow you to select any window, regardless of which desktop it's on. This should at least solve the above-mentioned issue. If you continue to press cmd-tab in expose, it will take you from app to app, showing all windows for each one.

Daniel

[Edit: I just realized this is the Mountain Lion forum. I was talking about how it works in Lion. No idea if this is still valid in ML]

Jagardn
Feb 20, 2012, 02:34 PM
For me, MC would work well enough if the two finger up to spread actually spread the windows enough such that they didn't overlap.

I could agree with that, or the same three finger down swipe for App Expose when your mouse pointer is over the windows.

DeckMan
Feb 20, 2012, 03:42 PM
For me, MC would work well enough if the two finger up to spread actually spread the windows enough such that they didn't overlap.

+1. That is my single gripe with Mission Control, and the one I posted as feedback (http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html), because it's nigh impossible now to find the right window if an app has three or more on one desktop. (unless I switch to App Exposé, of course)

Krazy Bill
Feb 20, 2012, 03:47 PM
Yeah, there's so many other choices out there with "All Windows Expose" over every "Spaces". :rolleyes:Ironically, there are tons of 'em available for Windows. (rolling eyes back at you).

I'm using one right now... just a "flick" to a screen hot corner and viola... all my windows appear side-by-side and not stacked. :eek:

Apple should come out with something like this. :)

DeckMan
Feb 20, 2012, 04:25 PM
Ironically, there are tons of 'em available for Windows. (rolling eyes back at you).

...over every "Spaces"?

KnightWRX
Feb 20, 2012, 06:11 PM
Ironically, there are tons of 'em available for Windows. (rolling eyes back at you).

I see nothing of the sort on Microsoft's site.

klaxamazoo
Feb 21, 2012, 07:19 AM
I see nothing of the sort on Microsoft's site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expos%C3%A9_clone
http://sourceforge.net/projects/openexpose/

Doesn't matter if Microsoft makes it. I couldn't care less who built Expose for Windows, all that matter is that it is available for Windows, and there are a lot of Expose Clones available.

Montys
Feb 21, 2012, 01:55 PM
Apple will have to "fix" Spaces and Expose eventually if they want customers to upgrade. Otherwise things might keep looking like this:

http://content.screencast.com/users/elements/folders/Jing/media/feaa8899-7285-48b2-bada-95a19d2e02da/00001225.png

Despite the fact that Lion was released 6 months ago, people are still holding on to 10.6 and I doubt this will change with 10.8. I think 10.8 brings a number of great features but I think, as it has been pointed out, that Apple did not really think things through when they released 10.7.

Statistics from: netmarketshare.com

xgman
Feb 21, 2012, 02:45 PM
Apple simply wants you to do things their way, and not the easy way. I've given up on hoping for an expose comeback and just use Hyperdock and Mission Control to navigate.

BaldiMac
Feb 21, 2012, 02:54 PM
Apple will have to "fix" Spaces and Expose eventually if they want customers to upgrade. Otherwise things might keep looking like this:

Image (http://content.screencast.com/users/elements/folders/Jing/media/feaa8899-7285-48b2-bada-95a19d2e02da/00001225.png)

Despite the fact that Lion was released 6 months ago, people are still holding on to 10.6 and I doubt this will change with 10.8. I think 10.8 brings a number of great features but I think, as it has been pointed out, that Apple did not really think things through when they released 10.7.

Statistics from: netmarketshare.com

Goes to show that you can prove anything when you take statistics out of context. :)

http://gigaom.com/apple/snow-leopards-been-out-for-six-months-why-are-so-many-of-us-still-using-leopard/

Adoption of Snow Leopard after 6 months was only slightly higher (around 38%. And that's ignoring 10.3 and earlier, so the real number is actually lower.)

baryon
Feb 21, 2012, 04:58 PM
I think that 90% of people just don't care how windows are managed: they store all their icons on the desktop, all of their apps are constantly running (they just close windows, they don't quit the apps) and when a window is hidden behind another, they think the window doesn't exist so they click on the app icon to open the app, which brings the already-open window to the front. It works perfectly well for most people, even though it makes me cringe when I see it.

And no, it's not just grannies and parents that do this: young, intelligent people often do this too.

These kind of people really need the OS to do everything for them, since they can't care about organizing their workspace. But either way, they don't care much, so they won't complain.

For people who really care about how their workspace is organized, it's extremely frustrating to see yet another level of control taken away from them.


The reason Apple uses linear desktops instead of a grid is because of full screen apps. Full screen apps act like new desktops, and are created/removed on the fly, which means there is often an odd number of "desktops", which wouldn't work with Spaces in a grid. However, I hate full screen apps and I don't ever use them, so for me, this would not be an issue.

I think that since Apple introduced so many new strange things into Lion such as AutoSave, Versions, Resume and Mission Control, things got a hell of a lot more confusing. Sure, you can turn some off, but for example, if you open an image in Preview, then quit Preview, and then open another image 2 weeks later, you'll have your old image reappear and you won't even know why it's there. If you open a new text document in Pages and then close it, it won't ask you to Save or not, it will just reopen it next time. I often start typing then decide to scrap the document, in which case I never want to see it again, so I don't save it. This option isn't even offered when I quit.

These things all seem to take control out of the user's hand, as if Apple was saying "Oh don't bother with that, you're too stupid to understand how that works. Here, let us organize things for you."

Edit: One last thing I hate about Mission Control: Say you're on Desktop 6, and you click iTunes in the dock, which happens to be on Desktop 1. Your desktop slides ONCE to the right, revealing iTunes directly on the left, as if iTunes was right next to Desktop 6. It feels like there's nothing in between, but when you swipe right, you'll notice that you're not back on Desktop 6, but rather Desktop 2, then 3, and 4, 5, and finally 6. It's super confusing for me. With Spaces, when you activated an app that was a few desktops away, you actually saw the contents fly through in between, making you feel the "distance travelled", helping you know where you are, in addition to the little HUD display that mapped it for you too.

newagemac
Feb 22, 2012, 09:06 AM
I'm too OCD to have more than 1 app for a kind of content. I like organization and discipline on my computer. Code ? Xcode. Image manipulation ? Gimp. HTML ? Chrome. Everything works by app. So be it using Mouse 4 or 4 fingers up or CMD-TAB, I switch to the app for the content I need and then use Button 5 or 4 fingers down to get app expose and find the actual content I want.

So really, just popping up a bunch of Windows of different apps to me was complete lunacy. I never used Expose prior to Lion, everytime I did I would cry a little inside to the big mess that would pop up.

Yep, this is exactly how I work. Snow Leopard's Expose just wasn't very useful in my opinion but Lion/Mountain Lion's MC was a godsend. Look folks, the difference is clear. If you are app centric like KnightWRX explained above, then Mission Control is awesome. Best productivity enhancer for an OS I've seen in a long time.

However, if you use a bunch of different apps to open the exact same content you might prefer the old Exposé way. But I never understood why people do this anyway. Seems pretty disorganized and requiring more apps to be opened and closed, therefore more messy and more RAM and CPU resources used, more organization needed, and more apps to learn. Doesn't seem very productive overall to me in comparison in the long run.

And that model is going to be more difficult as time goes on because it seems Apple is moving more to the app centric model rather than the document centered one in more places. iCloud for example is app centric. You have a presentation to work on, you switch to Keynote and open your presentation from there. And what's cool about the newer way is that you don't even have to remember what file you were working on because it should be right there in front of you after opening or switching to the Keynote app.... even if you just rebooted.

Same thing for other apps. Working on HTML code for example, the idea is to just switch to the app first rather than the document first. The document should then be there waiting for you and if there are a bunch of them, App Exposé in Lion makes it really easy to find the one you want rather than Snow Leopard's Exposé which would instead throw up ALL windows which doesn't make sense when you are already on the desktop/app you're going to be working with. And again this works best if you have already decided that Coda or Dreamweaver or whatever is your HTML editor of choice as then you always know which app to switch to for that particular kind of document and that particular type of document isn't spread across different App desktops.

In other words, Lion and Mountain Lion's desktops are more App centric with their related documents neatly organized along with them. Which is how iCloud is also set up to work. Over time, most apps will have moved to accommodate this workflow by integrating Lion's new features. And if you aren't adapting, you will miss out even more on the productivity gains we're already experiencing.

Of course you can stay with Snow Leopard and the old way of doing things but others will be passing you in productivity and efficiency as time goes on and they adapt to the more efficient workflows. For now, experience and muscle memory might serve you well but that never lasts in the grand scheme of things. Just ask those who didn't want to learn a new workflow when Leopard/SL was released.

newagemac
Feb 22, 2012, 09:17 AM
Apple will have to "fix" Spaces and Expose eventually if they want customers to upgrade. Otherwise things might keep looking like this:

Image (http://content.screencast.com/users/elements/folders/Jing/media/feaa8899-7285-48b2-bada-95a19d2e02da/00001225.png)

Despite the fact that Lion was released 6 months ago, people are still holding on to 10.6 and I doubt this will change with 10.8. I think 10.8 brings a number of great features but I think, as it has been pointed out, that Apple did not really think things through when they released 10.7.

Statistics from: netmarketshare.com

That graphic says the exact opposite of what you are attempting to prove.

I just did a quick search and this article came up:

http://gigaom.com/apple/snow-leopards-been-out-for-six-months-why-are-so-many-of-us-still-using-leopard/

So after six months, Leopard still had 2.2% global share while Snow Leopard had 1.8% share. Someone might be able to find numbers that only compare between Apple's OS but Apple has already stated it was the fastest adoption they have ever had. Which is pretty significant seeing that unlike Snow Leopard, Lion dropped support for a large number of Macs that could use the previous OS.

xgman
Feb 22, 2012, 09:23 AM
I think that 90% of people just don't care how windows are managed: they store all their icons on the desktop, all of their apps are constantly running (they just close windows, they don't quit the apps) and when a window is hidden behind another, they think the window doesn't exist so they click on the app icon to open the app, which brings the already-open window to the front. .

I see you know my wife. :D

Jagardn
Feb 22, 2012, 10:00 AM
I see you know my wife. :D

Mine minimizes every window til she finds the one she wants. If she doesn't find it, she somehow scours through 20 or more tiny icons on her Dock. :rolleyes:

CodeBreaker
Feb 22, 2012, 12:50 PM
Consider Spaces:

http://gigapple.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/all-spaces-plus-expose.jpg

… and Mission Control:

325407

In the first screenshot, I can see ALL open windows, in all spaces, at once, in the largest possible size they can fit. Pressing Space over each one will make that one even bigger.

In the second screenshot, try to quickly tell which is the current desktop (tip: it's the one with the white border around the thumbnail). Moreover, try to quickly preview other windows, on other desktops. You can't. You have to swipe to those desktops one by one, linearly. THEN you really lose track of which desktop you're on now.

Another issue is this: no, I don't instinctively know what app the window I'm looking for is in. Sometimes I have a PDF open in Safari, and another PDF in Preview. All I know is that I want to get to a certain PDF, I don't remember which was the one in Preview and which was in Safari. What if I have 4 Pages documents open on 4 different desktops, clicking "Pages" in the dock will only show me one of the documents. If I want to use App Exposé, I need to first click Pages in the dock, which will yank me to another desktop, and THEN activate App Exposé, and then choose the window I want, which will probably also yank me to yet another desktop.

The only thing I like about Mission Control are the gestures. But why couldn't Apple just implement gestures to control Spaces? 3-finger swipe up/down/left/right to navigate between spaces, 4-fingers-up to enter Spaces Overview Mode (like top screenshot), and 4-fingers down to enter Exposé without entering Spaces. Why not?

I think that in Mission Control, it's extremely confusing that the top thumbnails are a different size than the large "current desktop" in the middle, which, in case you're in a full screen app, isn't even your current desktop, but rather Desktop 1 for some baffling reason.

Basically, in Mission Control, there is absolutely no way to see all your open windows at once if you have more than one desktop, while in Snow Leopard there is. To me, that makes Snow Leopard's window management better, no matter what.

This has forced me to limit myself to two spaces at the most. So I don't have to search for a window. Really, what kind of crazy man would murder Spaces?

Saturn1217
Feb 23, 2012, 03:47 PM
However, if you use a bunch of different apps to open the exact same content you might prefer the old Exposé way. But I never understood why people do this anyway. Seems pretty disorganized and requiring more apps to be opened and closed, therefore more messy and more RAM and CPU resources used, more organization needed, and more apps to learn. Doesn't seem very productive overall to me in comparison in the long run.


For the record even though I dislike a lot of things in Lion/ML MC is far down the list and I do appreciate some of the benefits over Expose/Spaces (although I would prefer the SL way)

But seriously?! People who use more than one app to open the same content don't do it for fun. We use more than one app because different apps do different things...

Ex: I will open up a pdf file in preview if I want to highlight it. I will open it up in adobe reader if I need to fill out a form that isn't supported by preview or if I want to check cross platform compatibility...I will open a jpeg in photoshop if I want to edit it but I will open the same jpeg in preview if all I want to do is view/rotate it. This seems extremely reasonable/essential depending on your work flow so I don't understand why you think people would be making their lives more complicated just because they can...(I hope I don't sound rude)

Windows management in OSX has always been less than stellar (yes expose has its downsides too). I am disappointed that with MC Apple chose to make things worse rather than really sitting down and trying to make things better. It is hard to manage multiple windows for the same application in OSX (this is not Lion specific). Sometimes that is exactly what people need to do to get work done. I would love to see Apple attempt to address this without all the overly cutesy graphical clutter that they seem to trend towards these days...

Basic75
Feb 27, 2012, 05:35 AM
I don't care how they fix it, but we need some sort of feature to see all windows for all open apps with a press of a button[COLOR="#808080"]


The way that Expose and Spaces worked (also together) in Snow Leopard wasn't bad, only issue was the limitation to a mere 4 x 4 = 16 Spaces, but at least there was a grid...

stevemiller
Mar 2, 2012, 11:55 PM
Yep, this is exactly how I work. Snow Leopard's Expose just wasn't very useful in my opinion but Lion/Mountain Lion's MC was a godsend. Look folks, the difference is clear. If you are app centric like KnightWRX explained above, then Mission Control is awesome. Best productivity enhancer for an OS I've seen in a long time.

However, if you use a bunch of different apps to open the exact same content you might prefer the old Exposé way. But I never understood why people do this anyway. Seems pretty disorganized and requiring more apps to be opened and closed, therefore more messy and more RAM and CPU resources used, more organization needed, and more apps to learn. Doesn't seem very productive overall to me in comparison in the long run.

And that model is going to be more difficult as time goes on because it seems Apple is moving more to the app centric model rather than the document centered one in more places. iCloud for example is app centric. You have a presentation to work on, you switch to Keynote and open your presentation from there. And what's cool about the newer way is that you don't even have to remember what file you were working on because it should be right there in front of you after opening or switching to the Keynote app.... even if you just rebooted.

Same thing for other apps. Working on HTML code for example, the idea is to just switch to the app first rather than the document first. The document should then be there waiting for you and if there are a bunch of them, App Exposé in Lion makes it really easy to find the one you want rather than Snow Leopard's Exposé which would instead throw up ALL windows which doesn't make sense when you are already on the desktop/app you're going to be working with. And again this works best if you have already decided that Coda or Dreamweaver or whatever is your HTML editor of choice as then you always know which app to switch to for that particular kind of document and that particular type of document isn't spread across different App desktops.

In other words, Lion and Mountain Lion's desktops are more App centric with their related documents neatly organized along with them. Which is how iCloud is also set up to work. Over time, most apps will have moved to accommodate this workflow by integrating Lion's new features. And if you aren't adapting, you will miss out even more on the productivity gains we're already experiencing.

Of course you can stay with Snow Leopard and the old way of doing things but others will be passing you in productivity and efficiency as time goes on and they adapt to the more efficient workflows. For now, experience and muscle memory might serve you well but that never lasts in the grand scheme of things. Just ask those who didn't want to learn a new workflow when Leopard/SL was released.

how does making mission control favour app-centric searches become a productivity gain? if you want to find an app, you've always had the dock AND command+tab at your disposal. and if you're properly gonna be OCD about that kind of organization, i'd think those clean lists of app icons would be preferable to the additional visual clutter of multiple piles of document windows (ew documents, who'd want to search for those?). you are saying people should search for app first, document second, but apps in mission control are most strongly visually defined by a single document at the top of each collected pile.

if i may make a modest proposal, maybe we should just take things a step further and completely do away with multiple documents open at once. work on one, close it and then open the next. nice and clean. actually lets get rid of multiple windows of any kind for that matter. full screen apps do seem to be the future. come to think of it, even multitasking is just another word for mental unfocus. i guess even iOS has gone too far in that regard... hopefully they'll give us another productivity boost and scrap multitasking from iOS6 :)

ps. yes i know my snark meter is off the charts here, but i just feel like i'm living in bizarro land when taking a really useful feature for finding an open document and reducing it to essentially a listing of running apps (which as i pointed out, already existed in no less than 2 other forms) is considered the best productivity enhancer of recent times.

thejadedmonkey
Mar 3, 2012, 12:01 AM
how does making mission control favour app-centric searches become a productivity gain? if you want to find an app, you've always had the dock AND command+tab at your disposal. and if you're properly gonna be OCD about that kind of organization, i'd think those clean lists of app icons would be preferable to the additional visual clutter of multiple piles of document windows (ew documents, who'd want to search for those?). you are saying people should search for app first, document second, but apps in mission control are most strongly visually defined by a single document at the top of each collected pile.

if i may make a modest proposal, maybe we should just take things a step further and completely do away with multiple documents open at once. work on one, close it and then open the next. nice and clean. actually lets get rid of multiple windows of any kind for that matter. full screen apps do seem to be the future. come to think of it, even multitasking is just another word for mental unfocus. i guess even iOS has gone too far in that regard... hopefully they'll give us another productivity boost and scrap multitasking from iOS6 :)

ps. yes i know my snark meter is off the charts here, but i just feel like i'm living in bizarro land when taking a really useful feature for finding an open document and reducing it to essentially a listing of running apps (which as i pointed out, already existed in no less than 2 other forms) is considered the best productivity enhancer of recent times.
Well, actually if Apple did this, all the MS fanboys would be complaining that Apple copied Windows 8

And just go to any windows forums to see how much they like that :rolleyes:

Djesys
Mar 12, 2012, 03:30 PM
Guys, just found this: http://switchstep.com/ReSpaceApp

Havent tried it, because I Love me SL...but it would be cool if you could test it, and tell if it brings the space-experience back !

Thanx

WSR
Mar 12, 2012, 05:47 PM
Guys, just found this: http://switchstep.com/ReSpaceApp

Havent tried it, because I Love me SL...but it would be cool if you could test it, and tell if it brings the space-experience back !

Thanx

I know I've sen someone mention this app before.
Try searching the forum and you should be able to find more info on it.

I'm still with SL also. So I don't know how well it works. The impressions I got was that it's not perfect, but it might work for some.

ixthy
Mar 16, 2012, 10:55 PM
I have tried respace app, but I don't like it. No active corners and no all windows expose is a deal breaker for me.

klaxamazoo
Mar 17, 2012, 07:26 AM
I have tried respace app, but I don't like it. No active corners and no all windows expose is a deal breaker for me.

The developer comments in the forums show that he is making progress toward that functionality. I'm pretty sure he is aiming at a good 10.5/10.6 style Expose/Spaces clone.

Spanky Deluxe
Mar 17, 2012, 08:00 PM
Guys, just found this: http://switchstep.com/ReSpaceApp

Havent tried it, because I Love me SL...but it would be cool if you could test it, and tell if it brings the space-experience back !

Thanx

Excellent! One step closer! I hate Lion as it is right now. The opening windows where they closed thing is good and all and there are loads of things that are nicer but usability has seriously decreased. It feels like Vista vs XP to me and I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

All windows exposé was what made me switch to mac in the first place. It was when I saw how you could switch between open windows in Tiger that I became hooked. Not only that but it's the biggest selling point I've used to switch my friends - many, many of them. They all now, like I, strongly dislike Lion due to the bastardisation of Exposé. Those of them that used to use Spaces hate Lion even more.

Doing actual work on Lion has become a real chore compared to Snow Leopard. I usually have at least ten safari windows, about ten textedit windows, several TextWrangler coding windows, Matlab, 4-10 terminal windows, MSN, Skype, Twitter and Mail open. It used to be easy to find the particular Safari window I wanted or the textedit note that I wanted. Now it takes an awful amount of clicking to do what was a one click operation (move to hot corner to expose, then click on what I want). What's even better is it was just as effective on my 30" ACD as it is on my 15" MBP.

If anything, features such as the restart-windows-on-reboot just exacerbates the problem as I often have several unneeded windows open from my previous shutdown so there's even more clutter.

I can't understand why Apple would destroy Spaces and Expose like this. All they had to do was leave an option for 'classic Expose and Spaces' and we would have been happy. It's not like they would have had to recode anything, just copy and paste the Snow Leopard code.

As it stands, Mac OS X is not fit for purpose for production purposes for a good number of people. It could be fixed with the addition of a simple check box.

Cougarcat
Mar 17, 2012, 08:33 PM
If anything, features such as the restart-windows-on-reboot just exacerbates the problem as I often have several unneeded windows open from my previous shutdown so there's even more clutter.


This is fixed in ML. If you check the box when restarting, it'll stick.

WSR
Mar 17, 2012, 09:18 PM
I can't understand why Apple would destroy Spaces and Expose like this. All they had to do was leave an option for 'classic Expose and Spaces' and we would have been happy. It's not like they would have had to recode anything, just copy and paste the Snow Leopard code.

As it stands, Mac OS X is not fit for purpose for production purposes for a good number of people. It could be fixed with the addition of a simple check box.

I 100% agree. This is the #1 reason I'm still with SL, and will be in the future.

rheb1026
Mar 20, 2012, 06:17 PM
I 100% agree. This is the #1 reason I'm still with SL, and will be in the future.

I'm in the same boat. I liked a lot of things about Lion when I tried it out, but I switched back to SL because of spaces and expose. If they integrated that option into Lion I'd never look back

kemo
Mar 21, 2012, 04:49 AM
Guys, just found this: http://switchstep.com/ReSpaceApp

Havent tried it, because I Love me SL...but it would be cool if you could test it, and tell if it brings the space-experience back !

Thanx


Looks promising, though. Anyway I have no success to get it running on Mountain Lion DP2 :)

----------

I'm in the same boat. I liked a lot of things about Lion when I tried it out, but I switched back to SL because of spaces and expose. If they integrated that option into Lion I'd never look back

Many of us still keeping SL as their main OS, and I believe they will for a long time, because of Expose, and I would stay even longer if they would add iCloud support for SL. PhotoStream would be great though.

thearmlesswonde
May 14, 2012, 12:56 AM
This has forced me to limit myself to two spaces at the most. So I don't have to search for a window. Really, what kind of crazy man would murder Spaces?

Seriously I have to strongly agree. People's argument that client's mission control feature is equivalent to the exposed a/spaces feature in Snow Leopard is lacking experience or understanding of what this really does.

I am also forced to use Snow Leopard without upgrading because I would be looking at a major setback and productivity. I love the ability to hold Adobe Photoshop file on the left of my screen and automatically extract over to the illustrator program I have opened an adjacent cell or grid.

As far as stacking up white windows on top of one another, that's just annoying. If I had three Microsoft Word or iWork pages open up at the same time I want to see them all at same times I can remember which one I meant to go back and type something.

Sure on a laptop this white feature might come in handy, what's the point of owning a Mac Pro if you can't be a pro ? needless to say that I am disabled on one of my arms so swiping is just not going to be feasible.

Maybe if we get millions of people to complain to Apple about this problem will finally give us a choice between Mission control in the spaces feature that would be reasonable. Even if it eats up memory, Just by more lol

also you can re-arranger spaces while looking at the grid by holding cursor down and dragging the grid space were ever you would like. You can also grab individual windows while looking at this space in the grid view and also drag them to other spaces without moving the grid space.

Bottom line, mission control is a flop just like Vista. It should only be used by lightweight users.

----------

Looks promising, though. Anyway I have no success to get it running on Mountain Lion DP2 :)

----------



Many of us still keeping SL as their main OS, and I believe they will for a long time, because of Expose, and I would stay even longer if they would add iCloud support for SL. PhotoStream would be great though.


I have tested out this feature on my Mac Pro laptop and it is something fun to play around with and somewhat practical for a laptop user. However it could not handle running for Adobe CS5 programs and alternate between them seamlessly. It is a good start I think but still has a very long ways to go. Perhaps a year.

It is also missing a lot of the features. It overlaps the grid on top of your existing window instead of zooming out and fading to a solid blue screen with a simple grid showing all open windows like in the Snow Leopard version. You also can't drag windows to other grids or rearranged grids themselves while looking at it. A lot of the functionality is very basic, which I do understand that is just the start like I said.

D-a-a-n
May 14, 2012, 10:23 AM
Hi all,

This is my first ever post to this forum. I have a 2011 Mac Mini which is my first Mac since 1999 and my first experience with Mac OSX ( I used to be an administrator of a big Mac network in the 90s and I owned a blue iBook). I mostly use it for music (Live and Logic + Lemur and some other stuff on my iPad. I am quite blown away by the ease of configuring wireless Midi and other esoteric stuff) but since I am also a closet Linux geek, I am getting to know the the more hardcore Unix side of Mac OSX too.

Anyway, to the point. I have never seen this mentioned anywhere on the forum, but if you do cmd-tab to switch between apps, and then press up- or down-arrow while switching, it will take you into expose for the selected app, and allow you to select any window, regardless of which desktop it's on. This should at least solve the above-mentioned issue. If you continue to press cmd-tab in expose, it will take you from app to app, showing all windows for each one.

Daniel

[Edit: I just realized this is the Mountain Lion forum. I was talking about how it works in Lion. No idea if this is still valid in ML]

That is amazing! Did not know that one..

WSR
May 14, 2012, 02:47 PM
Hi all,

This is my first ever post to this forum. I have a 2011 Mac Mini which is my first Mac since 1999 and my first experience with Mac OSX ( I used to be an administrator of a big Mac network in the 90s and I owned a blue iBook). I mostly use it for music (Live and Logic + Lemur and some other stuff on my iPad. I am quite blown away by the ease of configuring wireless Midi and other esoteric stuff) but since I am also a closet Linux geek, I am getting to know the the more hardcore Unix side of Mac OSX too.

Anyway, to the point. I have never seen this mentioned anywhere on the forum, but if you do cmd-tab to switch between apps, and then press up- or down-arrow while switching, it will take you into expose for the selected app, and allow you to select any window, regardless of which desktop it's on. This should at least solve the above-mentioned issue. If you continue to press cmd-tab in expose, it will take you from app to app, showing all windows for each one.

Daniel

[Edit: I just realized this is the Mountain Lion forum. I was talking about how it works in Lion. No idea if this is still valid in ML]


Also works in Snow Leopard.

FlatlinerG
May 15, 2012, 06:02 PM
Personally, I think Lion is great and that MC is a great step up from Expose & Spaces. If you constantly have one space for a whole bunch of files, of course you are going to get confused, it's basically a desk with overlapping files..

Use full screen apps when possible, and limit each desktop to a couple of documents.

The only real way to make something work for you is to completely embrace it and work with what you have to make it functional. Whining about missing the past isn't going to get you anywhere. If you don't like the current setup, apple.com/feedback and hope that enough people feel the same way.

baryon
May 15, 2012, 06:41 PM
Personally, I think Lion is great and that MC is a great step up from Expose & Spaces. If you constantly have one space for a whole bunch of files, of course you are going to get confused, it's basically a desk with overlapping files..

Use full screen apps when possible, and limit each desktop to a couple of documents.

The only real way to make something work for you is to completely embrace it and work with what you have to make it functional. Whining about missing the past isn't going to get you anywhere. If you don't like the current setup, apple.com/feedback and hope that enough people feel the same way.

Full screen apps are not a solution: there is no way to see the desktop, and any popup dialog and window easily gets lost behind the full screen app, never to be found ever again. Moreover, full screen apps appear on the rightmost side of all your desktops, which is completely confusing and illogical to me. This is why I don't use full screen, even though it would be a good idea if it worked.

I have one space per app, mostly, and I end up with lots of spaces. Swiping between 6 spaces is annoying, since it's all linear. In Snow Leopard, you could just go to any desktop in one or two steps, even when you had loads. Moreover, Spaces in Snow Leopard helped you to VISUALLY remember locations of desktops: you could remember things like "Safari is ABOVE Mail" or "Photoshop is to the LEFT of Bridge", etc… Now that's pretty much gone.

I am whining about losing something, because I don't see WHY this is necessary. It's like someone suddenly deciding that you no longer have the internet. Sure, our parents lived fine without it. But once you've experienced it, you no longer want to live without it, especially if there is no logical REASON to live without it.

bedifferent
May 15, 2012, 06:46 PM
This has forced me to limit myself to two spaces at the most. So I don't have to search for a window. Really, what kind of crazy man would murder Spaces?

TotalSpaces is a few days from 1.0 release, beta testing 0.9.9 now between Lion and Mountain Lion. It is FANTASTIC! Works exactly as Spaces did prior to Lion. Some screen shots attached. I use dual displays, support for dual displays is coming in the 1.0 release as well as other features.

FlatlinerG
May 15, 2012, 07:16 PM
...
Moreover, full screen apps appear on the rightmost side of all your desktops, which is completely confusing and illogical to me. This is why I don't use full screen, even though it would be a good idea if it worked.
...

You know that full screen apps, and desktops for that matter, can be rearranged right?

Basic75
May 16, 2012, 01:58 AM
You know that full screen apps, and desktops for that matter, can be rearranged right?

Yes, but only manually, i.e. since the assignment of apps to spaces is gone you are forced to manually rearrange every time you launch something, else you mind-map is off.

(And this is ignoring other productivity reducing facts like that I am now forced to a 1D mind-map where previously I could use a 2D arrangement of spaces.)

CodeBreaker
May 16, 2012, 05:19 AM
TotalSpaces is a few days from 1.0 release, beta testing 0.9.9 now between Lion and Mountain Lion. It is FANTASTIC! Works exactly as Spaces did prior to Lion. Some screen shots attached. I use dual displays, support for dual displays is coming in the 1.0 release as well as other features.

I am using it since a week, and it is awesome. The only gripe with the current version is full screen apps. But regarding spaces, they got it right. And they will definitely cover full screen apps in coming versions.

baryon
May 16, 2012, 07:25 AM
TotalSpaces is a few days from 1.0 release, beta testing 0.9.9 now between Lion and Mountain Lion. It is FANTASTIC! Works exactly as Spaces did prior to Lion. Some screen shots attached. I use dual displays, support for dual displays is coming in the 1.0 release as well as other features.

Wow! This seems really good, how come heard much more about ReSpaces App, which is totally buggy? This seems like they're taking things seriously!

Too bad you now have to pay for something that used to be free though...

bedifferent
May 16, 2012, 01:01 PM
Wow! This seems really good, how come heard much more about ReSpaces App, which is totally buggy? This seems like they're taking things seriously!

Too bad you now have to pay for something that used to be free though...

Be careful, I updated to the latest version this morning, 0.9.9.1 or such, and Mountain Lion's Dock began crashing in an infinite loop. My Mac Pro was useless. I uninstalled it (carefully) and removed any remnants of TotalSpaces, fixed permissions, searched any remaining files in system folders, reset PRAM. Nada. Had to "Time Machine" back to before the update. Using 0.9.9 works perfectly, the only change to the current version is something about not being told to enter a license as it's still beta. I reported the crash logs to the developer.

(oh, and ReSpaceApp is TotalSpaces now, if that's what you meant, same app just bought by BinaryAge, same company that makes TotalFinder, sorry if I mentioned that already)

baryon
May 16, 2012, 01:19 PM
Be careful, I updated to the latest version this morning, 0.9.9.1 or such, and Mountain Lion's Dock began crashing in an infinite loop. My Mac Pro was useless. I uninstalled it (carefully) and removed any remnants of TotalSpaces, fixed permissions, searched any remaining files in system folders, reset PRAM. Nada. Had to "Time Machine" back to before the update. Using 0.9.9 works perfectly, the only change to the current version is something about not being told to enter a license as it's still beta. I reported the crash logs to the developer.

(oh, and ReSpaceApp is TotalSpaces now, if that's what you meant, same app just bought by BinaryAge, same company that makes TotalFinder, sorry if I mentioned that already)

Hmm okay then, sounds like this IS the very buggy app that I heard about then :D Not going to install it soon then…

I don't like how the "bird's eye view" is on an overlay, instead of the way it used to be in Snow Leopard, i.e. that it zooms out to make room for every space, making it very smooth and obvious which one is your space (as you can follow it through with your eye).

bedifferent
May 16, 2012, 01:38 PM
Hmm okay then, sounds like this IS the very buggy app that I heard about then :D Not going to install it soon then…

I don't like how the "bird's eye view" is on an overlay, instead of the way it used to be in Snow Leopard, i.e. that it zooms out to make room for every space, making it very smooth and obvious which one is your space (as you can follow it through with your eye).

Oh I recommend it, this is the only time I've had an issue with it and I assume it is related (I wasn't able to fully examine my crash logs to determine what exactly was causing the Dock to crash over and over). There wasn't any direct reference to TotalSpaces in the crash log (although it may have modified a system file, I do not know 100%), and was hard as the error window kept popping up re: Dock crashing making use impossible. Yet it only started occurring after I updated to the latest version. I have version 0.9.9 that works 100% in 10.7.4 and 10.8 DP3.1 if you'd like, I can send it email or dropbox (got it direct from Stephen, not available on BinaryAge). The full retail release should be available soon.

I actually don't mind the overlay versus complete change in desktop when called up. I rather prefer it as I still have the same functionality as pervious Spaces while seeing my display desktops in a HUD interface. All that's left is dual display implementation :)

Thunderbird
May 16, 2012, 07:59 PM
Another tool to help manage windows is Optimal Layout

http://most-advantageous.com/optimal-layout/

I've used it since day one, and it's pretty good for arranging windows and switching between them. OL is actively being developed and is always improving.

LeandrodaFL
Jun 18, 2012, 08:58 PM
I almost cried when I looked at TotalSpaces page. Finally the grid back, and most likely, the functionality of Snow Leopard's Expose/Spaces combo.

Now I can consider upgrading my hardware someday.

Qustion. Can I configure buttons to activate Expose/Spaces with Total Space, besides the corners?

For example, I have the lower-right corner for show desktop, and F3 to show all windows Expose, and F5 to spaces. and pressing F5 and F3 gives the complete view of everything in your Mac. Can this be done with totalspace?

Cowicide
Nov 28, 2012, 02:51 PM
Agreed. Such a shame Apple made this blunder. Except for running Lion on a external drive for testing purposes, I completely skipped Lion because of this blunder and have been continuing to run Snow Leopard instead. It made me join others to petition Adobe to bring Creative Suite to run natively in Ubuntu Linux so I could switch away from Mac.

One of the worst blunders Apple ever made. I haven't skipped a Mac OS since I've started using it in Mac OS 7 days. The blunder is THAT BAD.

Expose is THE REASON I downgraded from Lion to Snow Leopard, and will continue to be the reason I may not upgrade to Mountain Lion despite it having some cool features. Expose is the MOST IMPORTANT feature for me.