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medea
Oct 22, 2002, 02:41 PM
LONDON, England -- A woman injured while squeezed next to an obese passenger on a trans-Atlantic flight has been given 13,000 ($20,000) by the airline.
Barbara Hewson, 63, was offered damages by Virgin Atlantic after suffering a blood clot, torn leg muscles and sciatica following a flight to Los Angeles in January 2001, the UK's Press Association reported.
She said the woman passenger was so large she had to sit with the arm rests up, but when she complained, the crew said there was nothing they could do as the plane was full.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/22/virgin.payout/index.html

CNN followed up this story with a poll asking:
If an obese passenger requires two seats on an aircraft, who should bear the cost?
The airline or
The passenger

My personal vote is for the passenger, but airlanes should perhaps install a number of extra large seats for extra large people, and those seats would be required for obese people and maybe they would charge more if you needed one, kind of like a weight limit.

ShaolinMiddleFinger
Oct 22, 2002, 03:31 PM
Is she's a fat cow, make her pay for the extra room. It's all her fault anyway.

IndyGopher
Oct 22, 2002, 03:39 PM
Here's the problem as I see it. On one hand, a lot of people are obese because they don't practice restraint. I am one of those. Other people are obese for reasons truly beyond their control. (I think this is a damned small percentage, though) However, we both are the same size and take up the same amount of room.

A person who is in a wheelchair because they ran their car into a tree while drunk off their butts requires the same assistance as someone who is in a wheelchair because some OTHER loser wrecked into them while drunk. Same idea. One is their fault, the other isn't.

In both of the above examples, additional considerations are required. But if you suggested for an INSTANT that it would be ok to charge a person in a wheelchair extra because you had to expend extra resources/people/etc to help them, your business would be burned to the ground by irate liberals.

Obese people are the last group it is socially acceptable to discriminate against... and straight white males, of course. Personally, I feel like if I needed two seats (I don't, and frankly can't imagine how people let themselves go enough to need two seats.. but again, some are not obese by choice, and don't get to do much about how many seats they need) it would be my responsibility to pay for them.. but I certainly do not advocate asking people if they are obese by choice. Tough call.

blackpeter
Oct 22, 2002, 03:40 PM
Yep. Air travel is not a right. If you need 2 seats, pay for them.

IndyGopher
Oct 22, 2002, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by tfaz1
Yep. Air travel is not a right. If you need 2 seats, pay for them.
For every wheelchair spot in a movie theater, they have to take out 4 seats. Do we charge someone in a wheelchair $32 to see a movie?

alex_ant
Oct 22, 2002, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by IndyGopher
Here's the problem as I see it. On one hand, a lot of people are obese because they don't practice restraint. I am one of those. Other people are obese for reasons truly beyond their control. (I think this is a damned small percentage, though) However, we both are the same size and take up the same amount of room.

A person who is in a wheelchair because they ran their car into a tree while drunk off their butts requires the same assistance as someone who is in a wheelchair because some OTHER loser wrecked into them while drunk. Same idea. One is their fault, the other isn't.
(Edit: This part added)
I think there is a difference though; this reckless driver you describe is wheelchair-bound for the rest of his/her life. Society will make accomodations for this person, but it will also punish this person for his/her stupidity by arresting them and charging them with a DUI offense, paralyzed or not, which is supposed to do justice. (We can't hold their paralysis against them for the rest of their life.) Someone who is fat as a result of eating too many Big Macs and not getting enough exercise has committed no crime; they're only being asked to pay extra for two seats on an airplane if that's what they need. I, a skinny person, would have to pay for two seats if I wanted to stretch out and be comfortable. Why should a person who is fat as a result of their own lifestyle choices be allowed to get the same two seats for the price of one? (I bring up medical-related fatness in the next para)
In both of the above examples, additional considerations are required. But if you suggested for an INSTANT that it would be ok to charge a person in a wheelchair extra because you had to expend extra resources/people/etc to help them, your business would be burned to the ground by irate liberals.

Obese people are the last group it is socially acceptable to discriminate against... and straight white males, of course. Personally, I feel like if I needed two seats (I don't, and frankly can't imagine how people let themselves go enough to need two seats.. but again, some are not obese by choice, and don't get to do much about how many seats they need) it would be my responsibility to pay for them.. but I certainly do not advocate asking people if they are obese by choice. Tough call.
I think what would work in this case is the institution of a policy whereby fat people (I use that term non-disparagingly, as I refuse to use the P.C. term "obese") who need more than one seat are charged for more than one seat by default, but the airline is legally required to pay for that second seat if the fat person can present proof that their fatness is the result of a medical condition. I agree that there is a clear distinction between being fat as a result of a metabolic disorder and being fat as a result of poor lifestyle choices.

Sun Baked
Oct 22, 2002, 04:04 PM
Take the massive lard butt example one step further into insanity ;)

1. Do these people really have the right to take the revenue for the second seat for free? It is after all a business your dealing with, with the right to collecting revenue for every seat filled.

2. In the event of an emergency, one big butt wedged in the emergency window can cost everybody staring at that big stuck ass their lives.

3. In the event of on emergency air lift, are you really going to place that lard butt into two seats, or four small children?

4. How many bags of peanuts are these people entitled to?

IndyGopher
Oct 22, 2002, 04:08 PM
first, there is a difference between "fat" and obese. Just as there is a difference between stupidity and idiocy. One has clinical definition, one is just a disparaging term. I personally don't mind.. I'm not blind, I know good and well I am fat. I also think your solution makes good sense.. but it would never work. It suffers the same problem most good ideas do.. it relies on people being forthright, honest, responsible... all those things people hate.

alex_ant
Oct 22, 2002, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by IndyGopher
first, there is a difference between "fat" and obese. Just as there is a difference between stupidity and idiocy. One has clinical definition, one is just a disparaging term.
I disagree, but whatever.
I also think your solution makes good sense.. but it would never work. It suffers the same problem most good ideas do.. it relies on people being forthright, honest, responsible... all those things people hate.
I think it could only be susceptible to fraud/abuse to the extent that people are skilled at forging doctors' notes or governmentally-recognized classifications. If you need two seats, for whatever reason, you pay for them, unless you can provide suitable proof that you need those two seats because you have a recognized disability / what have you.

medea
Oct 22, 2002, 05:00 PM
what if a plane has 250 seats but 125 "overweight" people buy tickets and at a price of $250 roundtrip, If the airline sold all seats on that trip they should make a total of $62,500 , but if they had to give these 125 people an extra seat that they dont have to pay for then the will lose $31,250. Since keeping an airplane running is expensive (ie. gas, maintenece, pilots and other staff,etc.) then the airlines would have to raise their ticket prices considerably to make up for the loss. yeah ok, I doubt there is going to be a plane full of just 125 big people at the same time but you get the picture. Is it really reasonable to make everyone else pay extra because some people cant control their weight? imagine the taxes!

medea
Oct 22, 2002, 05:01 PM
Ok I think there might have been some "mean-ness" in that last post and for that I apologize.

DavisBAnimal
Oct 22, 2002, 05:05 PM
The real question here is whether or not these Airlines are REQUIRING big people to purchase two seats in order to fly. We're not talking about people wanting a free seat just to make themselves more comfortable. If the airline sees it in their best interest to avoid injury to other passengers (like what happened in the news article that spawned this thread), or to improve general comfort on their flights, then they - the airline - should be the ones to pay for it because it is their own decision.

Whether or not your size is a matter of choice or of birth isn't really an issue - no one would expect someone to have to pay for extra seats because they don't wear deodorant and smell really bad, or because they are obnoxiously talkative and will chew the ear off of whoever is seated next to them.

If an airline wants to improve the safety and/or comfort of their own flights they should pay for it themselves - not charge the individuals they hold responsible.

Of course they can do whatever they want - just be prepared for a justified backlash by an extremely overweight populace.

Davis

Hemingray
Oct 22, 2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by IndyGopher

For every wheelchair spot in a movie theater, they have to take out 4 seats. Do we charge someone in a wheelchair $32 to see a movie?

Apples and oranges.

I say if someone is that large that they require more than one seat, then they need to pay for it. The sad fact is that not too many people have a bona fide medical excuse for being that overweight. If they do... then I would accept some sort of compromise.

zarathustra
Oct 22, 2002, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by IndyGopher

For every wheelchair spot in a movie theater, they have to take out 4 seats. Do we charge someone in a wheelchair $32 to see a movie?

Apples and oranges, man. Until the gov't declares obesity a disability, there is no basis for letting fat people sprawl into two seats for the price of one.

I am very tall - 6'4" - and many transatlantic flights left me feeling like a sardine. It could have been my choice to purchase an extra seat to sit sideways (or buy first-class tickets), but I did not/would not ask the person next to me to skooch over so I can sit sideways.

I have very little control over my height - almost like clinically obese people do over their weight. But rarely do these people grow to grotesque sizes. I have known many people who are just BIG - they work out more than I do, they can run longer and faster than me, but they are still big. They CAN'T loose weight. While they might feel uncomfortable in your standard airplane seat, they can fit in a single seat.

Morbidly obese people, as a rule, have mental or psychological reason for being fat: satisfaction from food, depression, etc. You can argue that this is clinical as well, but I don't subscribe to it. With therapy and/or help their will to loose weight can be brought back and they CAN loose weight.

It boils down to choice: if you want to remain fat, you will have to buy two plane tickets to accomodate your fat behind.

alex_ant
Oct 22, 2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by DavisBAnimal The real question here is whether or not these Airlines are REQUIRING big people to purchase two seats in order to fly. We're not talking about people wanting a free seat just to make themselves more comfortable. If the airline sees it in their best interest to avoid injury to other passengers (like what happened in the news article that spawned this thread), or to improve general comfort on their flights, then they - the airline - should be the ones to pay for it because it is their own decision.

Whether or not your size is a matter of choice or of birth isn't really an issue - no one would expect someone to have to pay for extra seats because they don't wear deodorant and smell really bad, or because they are obnoxiously talkative and will chew the ear off of whoever is seated next to them.

If an airline wants to improve the safety and/or comfort of their own flights they should pay for it themselves - not charge the individuals they hold responsible.
What the airlines should do is a matter of opinion. What they should be required to do is another matter.

One's body odor or talkativeness can't injure another person. In those tiny aircraft seats, being greatly overweight can. Jet planes are already sufficiently safe and comfortable for the vast majority of people who fly on them, disabled or not. The bottom line is that the vast majority of the tiny "2-seat minority" require two seats because of an outcome (their size) that has been brought on by their own personal decisions in regards to their health. In effect, they are asking that a separate entity (the airlines) be required to front the cost for their decisions to eat a poor diet, not get enough exercise, and as a result, become pathologically overweight.

Kid Red
Oct 22, 2002, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by IndyGopher

For every wheelchair spot in a movie theater, they have to take out 4 seats. Do we charge someone in a wheelchair $32 to see a movie?

That's a crippling condition and permanent. Obesity is not. They can not eat lunch and have enough money to pay for the extra ticket. Also, a plane isn't a movie theater, you can't sit on the floor. Also, in a movie theater you pay for the movie, in a plane you pay for the travel. If your fat ass can't fit in a seat buy 2.

uhlawboi80
Oct 22, 2002, 06:51 PM
well most airlines that do charge for the extra seat make the person pay for it up front to make sure the plane doesnt get full and the situation from the news story doesnt occur. BUT, they usualy will refund the cost of the extra seat if the flight isnt full. Even with a plane thats not full i am not sure they should refund the extra seat.

now i know that some people have a valid medical excuse for being obese, but most dont.For people who its not a medical issue, there is just no excuse, and for those for who it IS a medical excuse there are treatments available. Besides, in the end, your body cant store all those excess calories if you dont ingest them.

I should also point out that i dont think obese people are bad people but all the same, i dont feel i should pay for them to get an extra seat in the movie theater (and YES, its happened in NYC) or on a plane flight. and yes, thats what it really amounts to, the extra cost gets spread out to the consumer.

Doctor Q
Oct 22, 2002, 07:02 PM
Might a profit-minded airline reduce the size of their seats by 5%, thereby increasing the number of people who have to pay for two seats?

Do you judge whether a person needs to pay for two seats based on how many standard deviations over "normal width" they are?

Is "normal width" defined based on world population, or only those people who fly, or people in the city/state/province/country of the flight's origin or destination? Are adjustments made for height, body mass index, pregnancy, etc.?

Regulating this will certainly make the lawyers rich.

Sun Baked
Oct 22, 2002, 07:30 PM
The standards for seat size were set years ago, but worldwide it's mostly the lard butt Americans that need the big seats.

Check out the car sites, if they send over a new car for testing with euro-seats the comment will be - seats too narrow for comfort.

While the airlines can accomodate the US passenger girth, why should they?

The US portion control is out of hand - the typical US meal is super-sized. And the weak willed public cannot walk away and leave half the food on the plate.

Remember - "Spoons didn't make Rosie FAT, Rosie made Rosie FAT"

Mr. Anderson
Oct 22, 2002, 07:58 PM
Obesity is the problem of the individual. If they're too big for one seat, they should pay for two. Its just rude if you have to spend hours with someone leaning against you the whole way, especially if its for a long period of time. I know, I've had to do it. Not fun.

But its a delicate situation and at what point do you decide a person needs two seats?

Hemingray
Oct 22, 2002, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Sun Baked
The standards for seat size were set years ago, but worldwide it's mostly the lard butt Americans that need the big seats.

Do us all a favor and don't drag nationality into this. That's all we need is another French iPod dB thread. Did you read where the article was from? Hint: It wasn't America. The point is, there are obese people in every country, not just the U.S.

Just like we'll never stop smokers from smoking, that doesn't mean we have to encourage it. You'll always see smoking ads, and you'll always see McDonald's ads. But when it comes to sitting down in an airplane, you WILL pay.

uno1234
Oct 22, 2002, 08:59 PM
Being fat is a result of a slow metabolism. If you, the skinny person, and he, the fat person, eat the exact same fattening food for a year, the fat person will gain weight, and the skinny person will not.

Now, you're saying it's the fat person's fault for being fat? Yes, they can control what they eat, and how much they exercise. But you don't have to worry about that, so it's easy for you to blame them for their obesity.

Sun Baked
Oct 22, 2002, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by uno1234
Being fat is a result of a slow metabolism. If you, the skinny person, and he, the fat person, eat the exact same fattening food for a year, the fat person will gain weight, and the skinny person will not.

Now, you're saying it's the fat person's fault for being fat? Yes, they can control what they eat, and how much they exercise. But you don't have to worry about that, so it's easy for you to blame them for their obesity.

So are you saying it's not their fault they're fat, it's always metabolism?

And if it's not the metabolism it's McDonald's fault for serving too much?

And in your fattening food example, are you talking fat intake, or calories consumed?

Remember - at some point people have to take responsibility for their own lives... if that doesn't work there's always Richard Simmons.

[Edit: to increase the calorie content of the SPAM in this post...]

medea
Oct 22, 2002, 09:24 PM
um, off topic but you (uno123) registered in july and this is your first post? I've often wondered if some people register several names so they can get their point across as being 4-5 or more people with the same opinions. I'm not saying this is the case with you at all, your post just made me think about that again.

Americans are fatter than most people overseas because we generally have worse eating habits and you'll notice I used the word "generally."
Personally I do not feel that I should be made uncomfortable because of someone else's handicap (lets not even go into whether or not obsesity is a "handicap") and it is a horrible shame that this women in the article was injured because someone was too big for their seat. Should the airline have had to pay for damage caused by this other person, In this case I think it was very smart for them to do so. But if a passenger boards a plane that has some sort of schizophrenia and attacks the person next to them, who will to be blamed in that case? Honestly the overweight person should have known better.
In the end I think the airline should now check passengers weight when they purchase a ticket and if the person exceeds the safe weight limit for the chairs then the person buying the ticket should then have to take what ever means needed for them to board the plane and keep the safty issue at check. This is about the safety of the passenegers as much as it is about the "fat" people wanting bigger chairs because they feel discriminated against. maybe the fat people should start up their own airline.
Someone just brought up the fact that buisnesses are required to install handicap accessable ramps etc. under penalty of law, so why shouldnt airlines have to install handicap accessable seats (and they mean big seats)?
My answer is that you have a choice on whether or not you want to fly and if you require any special means above what the other passengers need in order to fly you should have to pay for those means.

alex_ant
Oct 22, 2002, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by uno1234
Being fat is a result of a slow metabolism. If you, the skinny person, and he, the fat person, eat the exact same fattening food for a year, the fat person will gain weight, and the skinny person will not.
Being fat is a result of a metabolism that does not metabolize nutrients as fast as they are consumed. If all you do is practice for triathlons all day, every day, then you should be able to get by on as much greasy garbage as you want without having to worry about gaining weight (as long as what you eat provides the proper nutrients of course). On the other hand, if you eat at McDonald's four times per week and at other times eat moderately healthy, "average" American meals, but get absolutely NO exercise, you'll probably slowly gain weight. Some metabolisms work faster than others, to be sure, but this is the case in all countries, many of which have much lower percentages of obesity.
Now, you're saying it's the fat person's fault for being fat? Yes, they can control what they eat, and how much they exercise. But you don't have to worry about that, so it's easy for you to blame them for their obesity.
As a skinny person, I don't know what being fat is like, but I'm sure it can't be all that great. I can imagine for some it must be quite awful. But as hard as it is to overcome, it is still that person's problem, as much as I or anyone else sympathizes. If you'd like to volunteer to allow someone else to smother you with their immense folds of fat on your next trans-oceanic flight in order to save them from having to pay for 2 seats, you should be welcome to.

How much the airlines will sympathize, though, should be up to the airlines, and I for one hope they don't choose to pass the costs of someone else's lifestyle choice onto me. I pay enough to subsidize fat peoples' lifestyles already, from my college meal plan ($7 per crappy all-you-can-eat meal! Thanks fat people!) to my health insurance (which helps cover the staggering number of heart disease and diabetes cases amongst the overweight). It's not that I don't sympathize, it's just that I don't wish to subsidize other people's irresponsibility.

Alex

razorme
Oct 22, 2002, 11:32 PM
The airlines should change the ticket price to be based on seat AND weight together. After all, a portion of their cost is from the fuel required, and the more weight, the more fuel. For a $500 fare, why not charge $300 for the seat, and $1 per pound, or whatever the average weight x cost would equal $200.

People would whine and complain all over, I am sure. But if one airline did this, all the others would go bankrupt because all of the overweights would fly on the competitors hehe...

Hey, your luggage kind of works this way, except you are allowed a certain amount of weight before paying extra. Maybe 250 pounds free, and then $10 per pound? :D

uno1234
Oct 23, 2002, 12:20 AM
Should the Gap charge more for an XXL t-shirt because it uses more thread?

It IS a matter of personal responsibility, and I don't think airlines should benefit overweight people with a free seat, but everyone here acts like people are fat because they eat mcdonalds every meal and sit on the couch all day. For most people, that is not the case.

I have no idea why I registered in july and didn't post, but I don't have any other screen names.

springscansing
Oct 23, 2002, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by uno1234
Should the Gap charge more for an XXL t-shirt because it uses more thread?


Actually, many XXL shirts DO cost more. :-)

Not that I wear them, I'm 6'2", 162lbs, heh. Then again, I'm 17.. so.. that helps.

In my opinion, if you take up two seats, pay for two seats. If its a medical condition and airlines charge twice as much for obese people, maybe their insurance would start to pick up the rest or something?

MacBandit
Oct 23, 2002, 01:31 AM
Personally I think they ought to do what they do at carnival rides. If you aren't at least this high you can't ride.

So in this situation instead of a annoying clown plackard sticking it's hand out there will be a scale with simple sayings on it. (I'll let you think of what it could say).

I had a similar thing at the end of my bed for years saying if you weigh over this much you can't ride this ride.

MacBandit
Oct 23, 2002, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by uno1234
Should the Gap charge more for an XXL t-shirt because it uses more thread?

It IS a matter of personal responsibility, and I don't think airlines should benefit overweight people with a free seat, but everyone here acts like people are fat because they eat mcdonalds every meal and sit on the couch all day. For most people, that is not the case.

I have no idea why I registered in july and didn't post, but I don't have any other screen names.

Actually there are a lot of industries that do charge for larger clothing items. Motorcycle clothing is one of them.

Oh, by the way it's not the persons fault for eating too much. They didn't know they would get fat if they ate at McDonalds or Burger King or the like. That's at least what current law suits are implying.

If it isn't simply a case of eating the wrongs foods in huge proportions and getting no exercise in most cases of obese people. Then what is the problem?

Sun Baked
Oct 23, 2002, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by MacBandit
If it isn't simply a case of eating the wrongs foods in huge proportions and getting no exercise in most cases of obese people. Then what is the problem?

Blame the media, and the people getting rich off the media scare campaign.

Over the past twenty years we've gone through:

Salt is bad... Cholesterol is bad... Fat is bad... etc.

Sure now we have these low fat/low salt/low cholesterol meals that taste bad. But at least they're advertised as healthy, just high in calories.

Doesn't help that during this same period the average meal size has doubled/tripled. Sure the eat out meals are awesome values - but check the calorie content.

And in the same time period, the amount of time spent sitting and storing calories has also increased - thank you TV and internet.

But wait, all you have to do is buy the latest miracle diet book and you can sit on your ass, eat all you want, and still lose weight.

Get real... Take some responsibility for your life.

If you smoke a cig, expect to die - stop blaming tobacco.

If you eat a ton of Big Macs, expect to swell - calorie count or exercise.

If you drink and drive - what are you and idiot?

Sort of funny that people are eating healthier than ever, but are now fatter than ever. :rolleyes:

medea
Oct 23, 2002, 08:34 AM
You know what is sad is that in the United States the people spend millions of dollars a year on books and such trying to learn how to LOSE weight, while there are some countries where the people are dying of starvation. just a thought.......

diorio
Oct 23, 2002, 08:39 AM
Just goes to show how America has a severe weight problem, getting worse all the time.

mcrain
Oct 23, 2002, 09:04 AM
The airlines should treat us all like what we are. Cargo.

If your bag weighs more than a certain amount, you get charged extra. They should have a scale next to the check-in, and if you plus your bags weigh more than a certain amount, you are required to pay extra. Or, set ticket prices by weight. If Joe is 220 pounds (with baggage), he should pay half as much as Bob with his 440 pounds (including baggage). That way, if Bob requires two seats, he takes two seats.

The real cost for airlines is fuel and capacity. Right now their equations for calculating ticket prices is based on the number of passengers. It really should be on the weight of the cargo carried by the aircraft, with certain minimums so routes that are not full are still profitable.

This eliminates discrimination. If Bob, Susie and Joe are all 300 pounds total, it doesn't matter that Bob is skinny but has 3 bags that are stuffed, Susie is in a 50 pound wheelchair with a bag, or that Joe only has a 5 pound carryon filled with extra food.

Roger1
Oct 23, 2002, 09:32 AM
Treating us as cargo, then charging us accordingly would be very fair. I have flown only once, but in order to get a seat for my (then) one year old child, I had to pay full price. It cost something like $800 for three tickets, 2 adults, one toddler, price divided equally 3 three ways. So I think this way has some merit. And then go ahead and put larger storage areas (seats) on the plane, for "oversized cargo".

MacBandit
Oct 23, 2002, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Sun Baked


Blame the media, and the people getting rich off the media scare campaign.

Over the past twenty years we've gone through:

Salt is bad... Cholesterol is bad... Fat is bad... etc.

Sure now we have these low fat/low salt/low cholesterol meals that taste bad. But at least they're advertised as healthy, just high in calories.

Doesn't help that during this same period the average meal size has doubled/tripled. Sure the eat out meals are awesome values - but check the calorie content.

And in the same time period, the amount of time spent sitting and storing calories has also increased - thank you TV and internet.

But wait, all you have to do is buy the latest miracle diet book and you can sit on your ass, eat all you want, and still lose weight.

Get real... Take some responsibility for your life.

If you smoke a cig, expect to die - stop blaming tobacco.

If you eat a ton of Big Macs, expect to swell - calorie count or exercise.

If you drink and drive - what are you and idiot?

Sort of funny that people are eating healthier than ever, but are now fatter than ever. :rolleyes:

I agree totally. Except most people aren't eating healthier then ever. The division between the Healthy and unhealthy in this country is worse then the one between the rich and poor. There is a very small group of very fit people and then the masses in general are exceedingly unhealthy and unfit. Most people that aren't fat are still unfit.

jayscheuerle
Oct 23, 2002, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by uno1234
Being fat is a result of a slow metabolism. If you, the skinny person, and he, the fat person, eat the exact same fattening food for a year, the fat person will gain weight, and the skinny person will not.

Now, you're saying it's the fat person's fault for being fat? Yes, they can control what they eat, and how much they exercise. But you don't have to worry about that, so it's easy for you to blame them for their obesity.

Anyone can increase their metabolism by increasing their muscle mass. Your body burns more calories maintaining/feeding muscle than it does fat, even when you're resting. It's called "working out" and it contains the word "work". Diet alone won't transform Mr. Tubbs..

MacBandit
Oct 23, 2002, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by jayscheuerle


Anyone can increase their metabolism by increasing their muscle mass. Your body burns more calories maintaining/feeding muscle than it does fat, even when you're resting. It's called "working out" and it contains the word "work". Diet alone won't transform Mr. Tubbs..

Very good. It's nice to see someone else in here that's educated in the realm of fitness.

jayscheuerle
Oct 23, 2002, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by diorio
Just goes to show how America has a severe weight problem, getting worse all the time.

Saying "America" is like saying "Europe". It's too big and too diverse to qualify everything under one umbrella. You'll find that in the bigger cities, where people walk around more and have a variety of interesting food choices, people are slimmer (and better dressed!). You go out to your suburbs or almost anywhere in the MidWest, and the girth goes up as the requirement to drive everywhere along with the lack of dining choices (McDonalds and Burger King are EVERYWHERE), yep, fatties become the rule, not the exception.

The United States is not the only country with a bunch of lard butts, but there aren't many other countries where there is wealth coupled with instances of homes being 8 hours away from any cities.

MacBandit
Oct 23, 2002, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by jayscheuerle


Saying "America" is like saying "Europe". It's too big and too diverse to qualify everything under one umbrella. You'll find that in the bigger cities, where people walk around more and have a variety of interesting food choices, people are slimmer (and better dressed!). You go out to your suburbs or almost anywhere in the MidWest, and the girth goes up as the requirement to drive everywhere along with the lack of dining choices (McDonalds and Burger King are EVERYWHERE), yep, fatties become the rule, not the exception.

The United States is not the only country with a bunch of lard butts, but there aren't many other countries where there is wealth coupled with instances of homes being 8 hours away from any cities.

This isn't exactly true. It's just those that can walk do. These cities usually have large traffic problems and if you were to take a look through the windows of most of these cars you would see where the heavy people are hiding.

mcrain
Oct 23, 2002, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Saying "America" is like saying "Europe".

Not to be picky, but that is absurd. America is one country. Europe is a continent consisting of multiple countries. If the statement was that North America was typically obese for whatever reason, then your statement makes more sense. However, because many individual countries have censuses and health care systems that report various health concerns, it is relatively easy to make statements comparing the inhabitants and their health in one country compared to others.

Mr. Anderson
Oct 23, 2002, 10:39 AM
Exercise has a lot to do with it. On a recent trip to Italy, my wife and I noticed no 'fat' people. But we also noticed that in the country side most people would walk a couple miles to get to work, go shopping, etc. Even a small amount of regular exercise makes a difference.

And another issue is fast food in general - its a convenience, makes eating large quantities simple. There was a recent study, can't find the damn thing, but it said that famillies that say grace before a meal tended to be thinner on average. Why? Because it makes you calm down and relax before you dig in - it slows you down a bit and sets the tone for the meal.

D

jayscheuerle
Oct 23, 2002, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by mcrain


Not to be picky, but that is absurd. America is one country. Europe is a continent consisting of multiple countries. If the statement was that North America was typically obese for whatever reason, then your statement makes more sense. However, because many individual countries have censuses and health care systems that report various health concerns, it is relatively easy to make statements comparing the inhabitants and their health in one country compared to others.

America is not a country. It is two continents. The United States is a HUGE country with an extreme variety of inhabitants and cultures that are tied together by mutilations of the English language and a penchant for bullying. Using a single statistic for the United states is a meaningful as using one for Europe. It disregards the wide ranges of differences that you would get between New York and Wyoming or Germany and Spain. Any census reporting on the U.S. is absolutely worthless on an individual basis. There is too much variety.

MacBandit
Oct 23, 2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by dukestreet
Exercise has a lot to do with it. On a recent trip to Italy, my wife and I noticed no 'fat' people. But we also noticed that in the country side most people would walk a couple miles to get to work, go shopping, etc. Even a small amount of regular exercise makes a difference.

And another issue is fast food in general - its a convenience, makes eating large quantities simple. There was a recent study, can't find the damn thing, but it said that famillies that say grace before a meal tended to be thinner on average. Why? Because it makes you calm down and relax before you dig in - it slows you down a bit and sets the tone for the meal.

D

I will not argue with you about there being fat people in Italy or not but I do believe in a lot of places in the world there are large numbers of fat people. It's just these are the people that stay at home all day and aren't seen outside running the errands.

idkew
Oct 23, 2002, 11:25 AM
i agree with most-> if your fat a$$ can't fit in a seat, buy another.

off on a rant-> i see al these commercials for super diets. I wish we people would get smart and realize that there is a simple diet out there. cut down on calories and fat and WORK OUT! people are too damn lazy to get off their two-seat a$$ and lose some weight.


and also- you all do realize the WE (everyone) pays for a fat person? wether it be the extra fuel needed to cart then somewhere, or the costs to your insurance company for the triple by-pass, cholesterol medication, and fat person wheelchair, we end up paying a portion of that. same goes with smokers, drinkers....

Doctor Q
Oct 23, 2002, 11:54 AM
Weighing people won't identify those who need two seats. A 6'6" man can be trim and weigh more than a 5'6" man with a "widebody" shape. A tape measure around the waist is a more appropriate measurement.

Some airports now have a display set up where you can test that your carry-on luggage fits within the height/width/depth limits. Maybe they need a similar display to see who fits a human width restriction. Or make the metal detector you walk through so skinny that it can identify those who need two seats because they can't fit through!

Edit: Oops, I see a mistake in my own argument. A tape measure across the middle, not around the middle, is required to measure width. Duh!

Kid Red
Oct 23, 2002, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by uno1234
Should the Gap charge more for an XXL t-shirt because it uses more thread?

It IS a matter of personal responsibility, and I don't think airlines should benefit overweight people with a free seat, but everyone here acts like people are fat because they eat mcdonalds every meal and sit on the couch all day. For most people, that is not the case.

I have no idea why I registered in july and didn't post, but I don't have any other screen names.

As said, yes they do/should. Are you saying Outback shouldn't charge more for a bigger steak? Ford shouldn't charge more for it's bigger SUV? Your point makes no sence.

The point is is that airlines lose one seat for every fat passenger it has on every flight. During a recesion that can add up. Do you get 2 seat at a broadway play? Or rock concert? I could go on, and I don't really see a logical argument against it.

They are asking people to pay for the seats they need. Granted maybe a too fat for one seat discount should apply tho.

bobindashadows
Oct 23, 2002, 12:29 PM
Personally, it is my opinion that since the amount it costs the airline to transport someone depends on how much they weigh, how much they add to the mileage of the plane, then the airlines should charge by weight. Flame me if you want, but I think that's how it should equal out. Give them as much room as necessary. I think that obese people should understand the fact that their weight is resulting in less profit for the airline, and that the only fair way for the airline is to charge by weight. That's just me, though.

BobtheTomato
Oct 23, 2002, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by alex_ant

How much the airlines will sympathize, though, should be up to the airlines, and I for one hope they don't choose to pass the costs of someone else's lifestyle choice onto me. I pay enough to subsidize fat peoples' lifestyles already, from my college meal plan ($7 per crappy all-you-can-eat meal! Thanks fat people!) to my health insurance (which helps cover the staggering number of heart disease and diabetes cases amongst the overweight). It's not that I don't sympathize, it's just that I don't wish to subsidize other people's irresponsibility.

Alex [/B]

Very well, I hope that if you ever take a corner too fast and wind up pinned under your car that you won't expect us to subsidize your irresponsibility by providing a rescue squad and an ambulance to rescue your sorry carcass. A society based on no mercy works well, doesn't it?

BobtheTomato
Oct 23, 2002, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by bobindashadows
Personally, it is my opinion that since the amount it costs the airline to transport someone depends on how much they weigh, how much they add to the mileage of the plane, then the airlines should charge by weight. Flame me if you want, but I think that's how it should equal out. Give them as much room as necessary. I think that obese people should understand the fact that their weight is resulting in less profit for the airline, and that the only fair way for the airline is to charge by weight. That's just me, though.


Since males are statistically much more likely to cause a disturbance or hijack an aircraft than females and such disturbances cost the airlines quite a bit of money, maybe the airlines should charge extra for males. Perhaps males should understand that such actions result in less profit for the airline and it is only fair that they pay up.

uhlawboi80
Oct 23, 2002, 01:09 PM
Well considering that we cant point to a class of people and say they will be hijackers and therefore charge them more thats not reasonable. Would you then charge middle eastern men more since they are more likely than an american male to hijack a plane?

Things like that end up being passed on to the consumer. Its called social insurance. Now, i already pay social insurance for obese people who are more likely to have a heart attack or have diabetes or a host of other health problems. If they are on government assistance then we are obviously paying, and if not we are paying by way of higher across the board premiums for our health insurance.

I guess sometimes we just need to draw a line and make people responsible for themselves. The airlines did it, and its benefiting US. I am not going to be paying a little more so that an obese person can have two seats for the price of one, and frankly i am glad that someone is sticking up for majority rights as opposed to minority rights for a change.

unfortunately obesisty is fast becoming the norm...maybe a little deterent if we charge them more will change this.

Doctor Q
Oct 23, 2002, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by BobtheTomato
Since males are statistically much more likely to cause a disturbance or hijack an aircraft than females and such disturbances cost the airlines quite a bit of money, maybe the airlines should charge extra for males. Perhaps males should understand that such actions result in less profit for the airline and it is only fair that they pay up.
:) Good way to make your point!

Since it is never fair to the individual to charge based on group statistics (you're left-handed, so you are more likely to have trouble with the right-handed crank on the towel dispenser, so we'll charge you more in case you need help), they should instead charge by actual usage: If you, in actual fact, take more seating space, or require more jet fuel to haul you, or cause a disturbance that requires an Air Force escort, or eat two packages of pretzels, then you have to pay more as you exit the plane. :)

You don't pay in advance for a restaurant meal based on the average amount a person eats. Why should charges for flying have to be settled in advance?

idkew
Oct 23, 2002, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by BobtheTomato


Very well, I hope that if you ever take a corner too fast and wind up pinned under your car that you won't expect us to subsidize your irresponsibility by providing a rescue squad and an ambulance to rescue your sorry carcass. A society based on no mercy works well, doesn't it?

We pay taxes for those types of things, not to mention I would personally pay for the doctors and ambulances.

I do not see fat people paying for their extra burden on society.

Sun Baked
Oct 23, 2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by MacBandit
I agree totally. Except most people aren't eating healthier then ever. The division between the Healthy and unhealthy in this country is worse then the one between the rich and poor. There is a very small group of very fit people and then the masses in general are exceedingly unhealthy and unfit. Most people that aren't fat are still unfit.
I was trying to make fun of the way the media has "shaped" our eating habits over the past twenty years.

A diet from twenty years ago would have included more fat, more cholesterol, more salt, more media scare buzzword bad stuff. But most likely fewer calories and/or smaller portions.

Something is wrong, and it's most likely a national view of food as shaped by the media.

Of course the easy access to empty calories like Starbuck style coffee, and high calorie health drinks/foods doesn't help.

And the massive portions on the plates won't help, with peoples unwillingness to walk away and leave 1/2 to 2/3 of the food on the plate.

[edit: no change]

DavisBAnimal
Oct 23, 2002, 02:55 PM
Just a question for anyone who would know (and I am assuming that is no one here) - if a 747 weighs hundreds of tons, how much extra money would it cost for it to fly if it had an extra 100-200 lbs on board because of an obese passenger?

I also think this is all pretty ironic - it has been pretty well established here that people from the states (can we stop calling oursleves "Americans"?) are generally more obese than the rest of the world. At the same time, I think the US is the only country in the world that would ever consider charging big people for extra seat - the only country that would be so quick to place fault on individuals, and to expect fat people to "pay for their burden on society".

It's the selfish jack-asses like yourselves that are the true burden on our society.

I am disgusted by these boards sometimes.

Davis

idkew
Oct 23, 2002, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by DavisBAnimal

It's the selfish jack-asses like yourselves that are the true burden on our society.

I am disgusted by these boards sometimes.

Davis

Selfishness is not necessarily a bad thing. My guess is that you enjoy paying for people's heart diseases.... Right now, my car insurance is real high b/c of speeding tickets. Would you please send me a check to make up the difference from the "normal" person, after all, that is what you are preaching. I think it is only about $600 extra a year.

Oh- you don't think you should pay for my fast driving decision? Well then stop complaining that we want people to pay because they choose to be gluttonous and slovenly.

diorio
Oct 23, 2002, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by DavisBAnimal
Just a question for anyone who would know (and I am assuming that is no one here) - if a 747 weighs hundreds of tons, how much extra money would it cost for it to fly if it had an extra 100-200 lbs on board because of an obese passenger?

I also think this is all pretty ironic - it has been pretty well established here that people from the states (can we stop calling oursleves "Americans"?) are generally more obese than the rest of the world. At the same time, I think the US is the only country in the world that would ever consider charging big people for extra seat - the only country that would be so quick to place fault on individuals, and to expect fat people to "pay for their burden on society".

It's the selfish jack-asses like yourselves that are the true burden on our society.

I am disgusted by these boards sometimes.
Davis

You're probably one of the fat a$$es burdening society. Sure, why would you want to pay for being fat, it doesn't hurt you any. Fat people should be charged for two seats if they can't fit in one. Why shouldn't they? When you buy a seat, you but a certain area of space to occupy during the flight, if your fat a$$ can't fit in that area, you should be charged. And as one of the few "Americans" that is fit, I believe I can say that the fat people are at fault for being fat. A little excersise, a little moderation, and you won't have that problem, and I won't end up paying extra on my insurance to pay the medical bills for your failing heart.


:rolleyes: Sheesh

Sun Baked
Oct 23, 2002, 03:56 PM
Equal rights, yeah right...

That doesn't mean everyone has the right to consume as much as they wish of whatever they wish, and blame society and/or the manufacturers when they end up with cancer or a big fat ass.

diorio
Oct 23, 2002, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Sun Baked
Equal rights, yeah right...

That doesn't mean everyone has the right to consume as much as they wish of whatever they wish, and blame society and/or the manufacturers when they end up with cancer or a big fat ass.

I know, its weird how some people can justify those who blame society on their heart problems and cancer, and a big fat ass. It's like they still have the childlike attitude that they are not responsible for their actions.

jayscheuerle
Oct 23, 2002, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by DavisBAnimal
At the same time, I think the US is the only country in the world that would ever consider charging big people for extra seat - the only country that would be so quick to place fault on individuals, and to expect fat people to "pay for their burden on society".

Davis

Who can you place fault on for being obese if not for the individuals? It's not like anybody's tied in a chair and having Cheetoh's shoveled down their throats.

I'd say you're off about 180 degrees here Davis. Those in the States are the first to shrug off personal responsibility and blame someone, ANYONE, for their problems and then SUE them for their own inability to resist temptation. It's pathetic. NOBODY in this country "pays for their [own] burden on society". Our high insurance rates should tell you that we're all sharing that burden. What you're seeing is how many people are sick of holding up their own end while others let their own sink. It's why communism failed. For every driven hard-worker, there's a dozen slackers who want he/she to give them a free ride.

The most pathetic aspect of this is that the very same people who fight for their right to eat/drink/smoke what they want are the ones who want the rights to sue somebody else for this very behavior.

RESPONSIBILITY - It's not a 4 letter word.

diorio
Oct 23, 2002, 04:01 PM
Well, it seems to me that most of the people are totally opposite of the Davis's opinion. I guess we're all tired of putting up with those who the rest of the world looks at as pigs.

DavisBAnimal
Oct 23, 2002, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by idkew

Oh- you don't think you should pay for my fast driving decision? Well then stop complaining that we want people to pay because they choose to be gluttonous and slovenly.

How hard you push your accelerator is an easy decision - one that in no way involves the array of mental and physiological factors behind obesity. I think people are forgetting this.

For those people who argue that US media and its fast food culture are in part to blame for "american obesity", then shouldn't we as creators of this culture be held responsible?

And for those who think a person's weight is a result of nothing but easy to make personal decisions - well to them I don't think there is much I can say to change their minds, and I don't think there is much within them that I will ever find beneficial or rewarding. So to those people - well, for all I care, you can crawl into a fetal ball of your own feces, punk popsicles.

Davis

PS In reference to the guy who just called me a "fat a$$" - I am 6'1" and weigh roughly 180 pounds. I play soccer for my College. I have never once been overweight and feel blessed with a high metabolism. The personal insult is a bit much, don't you think? And yes, you should pay for my heart, I should pay for your hear, and you and I both should pay for the heart of the derelict on the street, we all should work to ensure the health and safety of everyone - I think the US is one of the only countries so incredibly opposed to this idea.

So you can suck a thick one, buddy.

Thank you.

jayscheuerle
Oct 23, 2002, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by DavisBAnimal

...the array of mental and physiological factors behind obesity.


Somebody's been watching too much Jenny Jones...

New Hampshire + Animal + College = liberal idealist one half-step away from Socialist (with a potty mouth to boot).

Aaaah... the ignorance of youth. I remember when I thought I had it all figured out...

Sun Baked
Oct 23, 2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by DavisBAnimal
For those people who argue that US media and its fast food culture are in part to blame for "american obesity", then shouldn't we as creators of this culture be held responsible?
NO, you cannot media and the fast food culture for the national mindset - it's still the ultimate consumer that makes the final decision.

If there is a cultural problem, start a counter culture revolution.

Remember the creators of this culture are the consumers, the manufacturers and media are only there to profit off what the consumers desire.

We're the land of the Miracle Diets and are a nation awaiting the next Miracle Drug to melt away the pounds, about the only thing that'll change the eating habits of the nation are a new scare campaign that'll change the national focus and make people aware of the calories they consume.

alex_ant
Oct 23, 2002, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by BobtheTomato
Very well, I hope that if you ever take a corner too fast and wind up pinned under your car that you won't expect us to subsidize your irresponsibility by providing a rescue squad and an ambulance to rescue your sorry carcass. A society based on no mercy works well, doesn't it?
So flying and being near death in an auto accident have what in common?

I'm not saying, "let's be merciless to fat people." I'm saying, let's not require airlines to allow passengers who need two seats to fly for the price of one seat.

uhlawboi80
Oct 23, 2002, 04:53 PM
Again, i dont see how anyone here can argue that its a deep seeded psychological issue or some dire health woe. its not. Plain and simple. It is lack of self control and irresponsibility. Our culture is one of excess. we do everything bigger and better than the next nation, including eat. We (unlike many nations) can afford to go and gorge ourselves on 8000 calories a day and many people think because they can they should. Thats simple irresponsible, and its things like this that are ruining our society.

look at the health care industry. it is being ruined because people are lazy and irresponsible. They dont take care of themselves which causes them to end up having major health issues. THEN these same irresponible people never go in for check ups or listen to Dr.'s advice and end up in the emergency room, thereby costing society and themselves (ie their insurance) a ton of money. A single stroke costs 10 lifetimes worth of preventative medicine and checkups, but we just live irresponsibly and hope for the next big miracle pill or what have you to drag us back from deaths door when if we had the self control and responsibility that we expect of a 10 year old we wouldnt have gotten their to begin with.

All the same, everyone is responsible for him or herself. I cant drag you to the gym with me 6 times a week and make you work out. People need to decide to take responsibility for their own actions. I think this is a societal backlash that has been coming for a while, and its just showing up in this instance first.

applemacdude
Oct 23, 2002, 05:06 PM
if shes that fat to be able to squish someone she must disabled

applemacdude
Oct 23, 2002, 05:10 PM
he/she is so fat when she was wearing yellow a man said taxi taxi:p


u got any better ones?

DavisBAnimal
Oct 23, 2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Sun Baked


If there is a cultural problem, start a counter culture revolution.


What do you think I'm doing wasting my time on MacRumors message boards, spreading my naive liberal gooble-dee-gook, trying to convince all of my friends to buy Apple computers?

idkew
Oct 23, 2002, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by DavisBAnimal


How hard you push your accelerator is an easy decision - one that in no way involves the array of mental and physiological factors behind obesity. I think people are forgetting this.

Thank you.
Also- it is an east decision to pass up mickey d's two big macs and go to the grocery store, wendy's, subaway, whatever and get a salad or vegge sub. Maybe 1% of people suffer from real medical problems causing weight gain. the rest just let themselves go.

Well, if you have ever had to go to driving school b/c of too many tickets, you might find this comment untrue. The VAST majority of people there speed because "i can't stand being passed". the rest were moms pushing their son's mustang to the limit.

i would consider this a mental problem that leads to driving faster. maybe now we should forgive them, and why not throw in some free counseling to help them shake this horrible mental disability. we could even pay with everyone else's insurance.

idkew
Oct 23, 2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by DavisBAnimal
[B] The personal insult is a bit much, don't you think? And yes, you should pay for my heart, I should pay for your hear, and you and I both should pay for the heart of the derelict on the street, we all should work to ensure the health and safety of everyone - I think the US is one of the only countries so incredibly opposed to this idea. /B]

you truly are an idiot. goto some socialist county. this is the US. we are capitalists. it is not my job to look out for your a$$. i have enough trouble looking out for my own. why would i ever want to pay your bills?

we are opposed to this due to the declaration of independence, the bill of rights... remember those things? you are in new england, i bet they teach that stuff there.

DavisBAnimal
Oct 23, 2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by idkew

we could even pay with everyone else's insurance.

It's called universal health care, and its already well established in many countries in the western world - right next door in Canada even.

And before you all go bonkers with "dude, Canada sucks blah de blah blah" let me just go back to saying the US is different (and worse) than most the rest of the western world because of our refusal as individuals to take responsibility for the well being of our country-mates.

And this is something I recognize. To quote Ellen Feiss "it's kind of...a bummer".

Now if you'll excuse me I have some legalization of marijuana posters to put up around campus, some hemp necklaces to make, and a non-competitive hackey-sack tournament to attend.

Davis

Mr. Anderson
Oct 23, 2002, 05:39 PM
Lets keep the personal attacks and insults off the thread, ok? Discuss this, but don't throw around comments that will cause the thread to be sent off to the wasteland.....

D

scem0
Oct 23, 2002, 05:43 PM
LOL, you gotta love stories like that. Just imagine the damaged woman as a grandma.

Grandchild:
"Grandma, where did you get that huge scar"

Grandmother:
"I was squished by a fat person, honey"

Grandchild:
"Oh"

uhlawboi80
Oct 23, 2002, 05:52 PM
no the US is NOT worse than most of the western world for one. and Two, the problem isnt that we wont be responsible for everyone else, the problem is everyone cant be responsible for themselves.

if i was paying for a 4 year olds heart transplant for a congenital heart defect via "social insurance" i wouldnt care. In fact i would be proud that things like this can be done in the US and are done.

Now me paying for the heart transplant of a 500 lb man who wouldnt need operation but for the fact that he was unable to control himself to begin with and became obese.

idkew
Oct 23, 2002, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by DavisBAnimal


It's called universal health care, and its already well established in many countries in the western world - right next door in Canada even.
Davis


damn socialists.

Hemingray
Oct 23, 2002, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by DavisBAnimal
Now if you'll excuse me I have some legalization of marijuana posters to put up around campus, some hemp necklaces to make, and a non-competitive hackey-sack tournament to attend.

Davis

Oh brother... :rolleyes:

I'd like to see some fat person squash you, and see how you react. :D

medea
Oct 23, 2002, 07:17 PM
Dukestreet is right, we can all share our opinions without attacking each other, unless your point is to get threads like this shut done in which case you should do us a favor and leave macrumors.
has anyone heard any follow up stories in the news about this?

oh and apparently this women (the obese one) did book two seats on her outward bound flight to London, but not on the return leg. So in my opinion this woman knew ahead of time she was going to need two seats to be able to fly but put someone elses safty at risk (and her own comfort) so she could save some money. If she knew she needed two seats ahead of time I would have sued her for the damages.

and on a side note in the US Southwest Airlines now charges larger passengers for two seats.

Sun Baked
Oct 23, 2002, 08:04 PM
Don't think I need to say more... but if you were that lady, you'd know how the poor dog feels.

MacBandit
Oct 23, 2002, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by Sun Baked

I was trying to make fun of the way the media has "shaped" our eating habits over the past twenty years.

A diet from twenty years ago would have included more fat, more cholesterol, more salt, more media scare buzzword bad stuff. But most likely fewer calories and/or smaller portions.

Something is wrong, and it's most likely a national view of food as shaped by the media.

Of course the easy access to empty calories like Starbuck style coffee, and high calorie health drinks/foods doesn't help.

And the massive portions on the plates won't help, with peoples unwillingness to walk away and leave 1/2 to 2/3 of the food on the plate.

Here's on for you. All these energy bars people eat to snack on. They are designed as meal replacements. They contain huge amounts of calories. Yes they are a healthy meal in general but not if you eat one then an hour later eat a full meal. This is something most people never realize because they never bother to read the nutrional data.

uhlawboi80
Oct 23, 2002, 11:28 PM
Blah, thats a hilarious cartoon! Some small child prolly will have to be crushed like that dog before some people well think obese people need to pay for that extra seat :p

MacBandit
Oct 24, 2002, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by uhlawboi80
Blah, thats a hilarious cartoon! Some small child prolly will have to be crushed like that dog before some people well think obese people need to pay for that extra seat :p

I would be surpised if an obese parent hasn't already sat on ther infant child and killed them.

ShaolinMiddleFinger
Oct 24, 2002, 02:12 AM
I still would charge the fat bitch....it's all her fault. She knows how fat she is, she should have warned the airlines.

bobindashadows
Oct 24, 2002, 06:08 AM
Originally posted by BobtheTomato



Since males are statistically much more likely to cause a disturbance or hijack an aircraft than females and such disturbances cost the airlines quite a bit of money, maybe the airlines should charge extra for males. Perhaps males should understand that such actions result in less profit for the airline and it is only fair that they pay up.

But you are talking only about a chance that the guy would hijack the aircraft. Does the airline have to pay more if a guy doesn't hijack a plane? no.... and dude, we're not talking about a whole society here, we're talking about business. business is business is business, and there is no way around that. An ambulance and rescue squad isn't about business. If we want these businesses to stay alive, which we do, then we have to be willing to let them run their businesses fairly, not at a loss.

mcrain
Oct 24, 2002, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Doctor Q
Since it is never fair to the individual to charge based on group statistics (you're left-handed, so you are more likely to have trouble with the right-handed crank on the towel dispenser, so we'll charge you more in case you need help), they should instead charge by actual usage:

I haven't read the rest of the posts, so I don't know if anyone else pointed out the complete wrongness of that quote yet.

Anyway, have you ever purchased insurance? Have you ever heard of a field of study or profession called actuary?

Of course individuals are charged based on group statistics all the time. Males between 18-25 have higher car insurance rates than females in the same age group. Why? STATISTICS.

otis
Oct 24, 2002, 10:52 AM
Middle finger and sun baked, you are not good people. You both deserve the miserable lives that your empty-headed comments suggest you are living. I'm sure you have a whole roster of people that you hate, and equally intelligent reasons for hating them. And now you have computers, so you can spread your bile around the world with ease.

I love the internet.

medea
Oct 24, 2002, 11:03 AM
See, another person who registered in July and this is their first post, it's a conspiracy I tell you. (read my post earlier in this thread.)
:confused:

jayscheuerle
Oct 24, 2002, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by MacBandit


Here's on for you. All these energy bars people eat to snack on. They are designed as meal replacements. They contain huge amounts of calories. Yes they are a healthy meal in general but not if you eat one then an hour later eat a full meal. This is something most people never realize because they never bother to read the nutrional data.

Energy bars are not the calorific equivalent of a meal replacement. They usually run between 200 & 290 calories apiece, which is nowhere near that of a typical meal. But, most "energy bars" are crap with sugars making up between 20% and 50% of their content, which is fine for a short term boost, but not exactly good for your body. If you have to eat these things, the high-protein bars are a better choice, especially if you're exerting yourself. A smarter move would be to snack on fruit and veggies, crack open a can/pouch of tuna or chicken for lunch (use whole grain bread if sandwiching) & eat whatever the heck you want for dinner, but with a reasonable portion. Walk. Do some sit-ups. Do ANYTHING other than watch the boob tube or surf the web. Most people take better care of their cars than they do their bodies, and one has to last 80 years running 24/7. Except for the aforementioned lardass. She'll be lucky to make it to 60.

diorio
Oct 24, 2002, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by DavisBAnimal


PS In reference to the guy who just called me a "fat a$$" - I am 6'1" and weigh roughly 180 pounds. I play soccer for my College. I have never once been overweight and feel blessed with a high metabolism. The personal insult is a bit much, don't you think? And yes, you should pay for my heart, I should pay for your hear, and you and I both should pay for the heart of the derelict on the street, we all should work to ensure the health and safety of everyone - I think the US is one of the only countries so incredibly opposed to this idea.

So you can suck a thick one, buddy.

Thank you.

Umm, hmmm, I believe you said this to all the posters on this thread earlier.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DavisBAnimal


It's the selfish jack-asses like yourselves that are the true burden on our society.[QUOTE]

So don't get all offended and act like I attacked you out of nowhere. You had it coming. Don't say one thing in one post, and then when someone calls you up on it, say, oh my god, he responded negatively. You d*** hypocrite. I hope you can play soccer good, because your probably not on an academic scholarship.

DavisBAnimal
Oct 24, 2002, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by diorio

I hope you can play soccer good, because your probably not on an academic scholarship.

Just so you know, I'm god awful at soccer and dink around for fun on a univeristy club team (but its fun and good excersize) and I'm at school with a full acedemic scholarship.

I'm not one to critisize people on their grammar and english, so I am going to assume you said "play soccer good" instead of "well" and spelled "you're" as "your" to further emphasize your point that I am dumb.

And you're right, I did insult you and the rest before I was personally attacked, and I apologize for that. However, keep in mind my insult wasn't personal, since it wasn't directed at any one person, and came only after a whole boat-load of insults directed towards obese people.

I got a little heated - my mother died recently of heart failure due to CLYNICAL obesity caused by physiological factors. It exists, I have seen it, and I have lost because of it. It's just upsetting to see so many people be so closed minded.

Davis

diorio
Oct 24, 2002, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by DavisBAnimal


Just so you know, I'm god awful at soccer and dink around for fun on a univeristy club team (but its fun and good excersize) and I'm at school with a full acedemic scholarship.

I'm not one to critisize people on their grammar and english, so I am going to assume you said "play soccer good" instead of "well" and spelled "you're" as "your" to further emphasize your point that I am dumb.

And you're right, I did insult you and the rest before I was personally attacked, and I apologize for that. However, keep in mind my insult wasn't personal, since it wasn't directed at any one person, and came only after a whole boat-load of insults directed towards obese people.

I got a little heated - my mother died recently of heart failure due to CLYNICAL obesity caused by physiological factors. It exists, I have seen it, and I have lost because of it. It's just upsetting to see so many people be so closed minded.

Davis

Well, in that case I also apologize. I'm sorry about your mother, my aunt recently died from being grossly obese. She was down syndrome. While some have medical conditions that cause obesity, most are obese due to excessive eating and lack of excersise.

Sun Baked
Oct 24, 2002, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by otis
Middle finger and sun baked, you are not good people. You both deserve the miserable lives that your empty-headed comments suggest you are living. I'm sure you have a whole roster of people that you hate, and equally intelligent reasons for hating them. And now you have computers, so you can spread your bile around the world with ease.

I love the internet.

Yay, I'm slighted by a "newbie". Like I'm really going to feel bad. :(

Yeah, right... :D

If you're fat, pay for it.

There can't be that many medical cases, or it's as rampant a medical condition as male pattern baldness - but a potentially lethal one.

Stop blaming others, there's only one person that can reverse the condition call lard butt, the person feeding that huge fat ass.

There is no quick fix - except a change in the way you view food, and READ THE NUTRITION LABEL - calories.

Food doesn't make you fat, the person shoveling loads of calories down your maw makes you fat, oh wait - THAT's YOU.

Like alchoholics/drugs, when it's come right down to it there is only one person that can truly break the addiction - the addict - drugs and mental therapy may help pave the way towards recovery, but if the addict doesn't really want to change there will be a relapse.

otis, 999 times out of 1000, you're fat because you made yourself fat.

If you consider that a bile filled hateful message, it's only the first step towards breaking your addiction... ;)

diorio
Oct 24, 2002, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by otis
Middle finger and sun baked, you are not good people. You both deserve the miserable lives that your empty-headed comments suggest you are living. I'm sure you have a whole roster of people that you hate, and equally intelligent reasons for hating them. And now you have computers, so you can spread your bile around the world with ease.

I love the internet.

What's up with the newbies making their first post here flaming people. It is a conspiracy, their gathering their friends to post in this thread and give them a number advantage.

alex_ant
Oct 24, 2002, 03:40 PM
1) What's with the frightening amount of times "your" and "you're" are misused in place of each other? Honestly - how hard can it be to get those right? I've been seeing this being done by those on both sides of this argument. It's hilarious to see the same people who appeal to their own educated intelligence proceed to totally dismantle their own credibility by making the same grammar mistakes a third-grader would.

2) Could we do without all the awful insults directed towards fat people (to use that term non-offensively)? I'm not in favor of the airlines being required to provide that second seat for free, but that's not to say I'm in favor of treating fat people like animals or degenerates. They are people, after all, unhealthy as they may be. If dropping down to 160 were so easy, I think more of them would be doing it. Imagine how much strength and maturity it must take to put up with other people's bile day in and day out - strength and maturity that so many of the smug, pathetic asses who have voiced their opinions so far in this thread don't see when they look in the mirror.

3) Newbies or old-timers, it doesn't matter. There are plenty of bright and insightful newbies just as there are plenty of ****ing idiots with thousands of posts. People should be judged by what they say, not by how much they speak.

diorio
Oct 24, 2002, 04:04 PM
Dis is a mesage bord. Nobudy cares howw you spel.

Sun Baked
Oct 24, 2002, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by alex_ant
1) What's with the frightening amount of times "your" and "you're" are misused in place of each other? Honestly - how hard can it be to get those right? I've been seeing this being done by those on both sides of this argument. It's hilarious to see the same people who appeal to their own educated intelligence proceed to totally dismantle their own credibility by making the same grammar mistakes a third-grader would.
I just wanted you to know, that this third-grader is definitely a better speller than me.

And I feel absolutely no shame in my poor spelling and/or grammar - I'm either doing the best I can, or I am too lazy to go back and fix my mistakes.

I am average, and darn proud of it.

Anyway, what do you expect from someone with a free public education from a mediocre educational system?

[edit: add more sugar to the SPAM.]

jayscheuerle
Oct 24, 2002, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Sun Baked

I just wanted you to know, that this third-grader is definitely a better speller than me.

And I feel absolutely no shame in my poor spelling and/or grammar - I'm either doing the best I can, or I am too lazy to go back and fix my mistakes.

I am average, and darn proud of it.

Anyway, what do you expect from someone with a free public education, from a mediocre educational system?

[edit: add more sugar to the SPAM.]

Back on topic:

I just wanted you to know, that this third-grader is definitely a healthier eater than me.

And I feel absolutely no shame in my poor eating and/or exercise habits - I'm either doing the best I can, or I am too lazy to get in shape and start eating healthy.

I am average, and darn proud of it.

Anyway, what do you expect from someone with a free public education, from a mediocre educational system?

;)

otis
Oct 24, 2002, 04:50 PM
Half baked, all I meant was that you are a miserable person. Sorry to have wasted your intelligent and insightful argument. Obviously the issue of obesity really bothers you, so why not help the people afflicted instead of insulting them? Read about it and become educated. And if you use your knowledge to help people instead of to hurt them, maybe you will become less angry. And if you become less angry, maybe there is a small chance that you can have children one day and not completely mess them up.

It's a simple equation: You hate, and hate is what comes back to you.

Sun Baked
Oct 24, 2002, 05:28 PM
OOOOoooo, insults... must be another one of the people who feel that the fat people are not responsible for their own condition.

If you're fat, and it's not an actual physical problem, food is probably an addiction/crutch, or you just plain can't manage your own diet.

You may want to blame mental problems, "slow metabolism", or even society for YOUR problems.

But the only way for someone out of their situation is for the actual person with the problem to learn about their problem and change THEIR attitude toward food, heck it may be as simple as actually reading the nutrition labels and managing their calorie intake instead of buying low-fat/diet foods.

If I'm ANGRY, it's because people are blaming others for something only they can fix.

If it's not a medical condition, change your diet.

If it's slow metabolism, change your diet.

If you have a mental problem, so what - stop blaming someone else, and change your diet.

Get it - the dancing pink elephant isn't stuffing the food down your mouth, you are.

Even if you win against McDonald's in court for providing high calorie/fattening meals, 10 years down the road you may get a couple bucks, but chances are you'll still be fat - even without Mcdonald's to feed your sorry fat ass.

Otis, stop blaming others and take responsibility for your own life.

Sometimes reality is the most hateful message of all...

So welcome to reality Otis.

PS - Take responsibility for your own life, and stop blaming others for your problems.

otis
Oct 24, 2002, 06:48 PM
half-baked , all I meant to say is that you are a sad, angry person. I suppose though, that after all of your hard work (not to mention the thinking you had to do!) in presenting your argument against which I never argued, I may as well comment:

You, half-baked , are the problem. Your ideas, comments, and beliefs cause eating disorders (and so much more). If you have a daughter, doubtless she will have an eating disorder. And if she is never hospitalized, you will probably not be aware of it. She will have a low self-esteem because of the damage that you do to her. And probably she will learn to hate and be unhappy as you have.

I agree that people must take responsibility for their own lives. So then, must we all take responsibility for our country and its people. If you really want to learn a little about how womens self esteem is destroyed and how we have developed into a culture of sedentary fast-food junkies from people who have actually done some research, you could start with "The Beauty Myth," (Naomi Wolf) "Fast Food Nation" (Eric Schlosser) and "4 Arguments for the Elimination of Television" (Jerry Mander).

Half-baked , re-read your posts. Spelling and grammar aside, is this really how you wish to present yourself? As a loathsome, uncaring, sad, uninformed person? That's what I see.

Wow, macrumors is getting heavy. (no pun intended)

Sun Baked
Oct 24, 2002, 07:33 PM
If you're insulted and confused by my low-quality SPAM, maybe we should go find that intelligent third-grader - mentioned previously - so you'll at least have a fighting chance of winning an insult flinging contest.

By all means, feel free to go out and educate the public on the error of my ways, and write another Miracle Diet book blaming society for the ills of obesity.

People have a choice in their destiny, if you don't believe this than my comments will not mesh with your disturbing vision of the world.

While culture helps influence the way you see the world, it's YOU that ultimately decides when and how much to eat.

---

Your take on the books is a little different from mine, you blame society for the ills, and obviously believe McDonald's should pay for making the world fat.

My take is a complete 180 from yours, people are 100% responsible for buying into the BS they are being fed. Stop being a lemming and take destiny into your own hands.

If saying people are responsible for their own lives makes me a sad, angry, miserable person - then I'd rather live with free will than wait for the lawyers to lead the fat lemmings to the promised land.

Remember, businesses and the media make money by selling the consumer what they want, if you believe they are selling the consumer something bad - then team up with Ralph Nader and inform the public of their purchasing errors.

---

Right now, the consumer is only interested in the Miracle Diet/Drugs, they don't want to hear that the calories they are consuming at Starbucks and McDonald's are making them fat.

It's been decades since the public has truly been aware that calories can also make you fat.

---

But reality is, the only person who can make a fat person thin is - the person living inside the fat suit.

Nobody else can make that choice for any adult, any attempt to try it is usually considered unlawful confinement.

PS. It's only an opinion, if you don't like it too bad.

So YES, the fat person taking up two seats should pay for the two seats if they use them.

ShaolinMiddleFinger
Oct 24, 2002, 09:24 PM
Otis, Scrotis, whatever you call yourself. I still say the fat woman should have paid for the two seats! If you're gonna take up the room, pay for it! Just like luggage, if it takes up more space/weight, then she should be charged for doing so.

topicolo
Oct 24, 2002, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by otis
Middle finger and sun baked, you are not good people. You both deserve the miserable lives that your empty-headed comments suggest you are living. I'm sure you have a whole roster of people that you hate, and equally intelligent reasons for hating them. And now you have computers, so you can spread your bile around the world with ease.

I love the internet.

I bet you're fat

Mr. Anderson
Oct 24, 2002, 11:01 PM
guys, come on, no personal attacks, this is the second time I've mentioned it.

And yes, I too think that if you use the seats, you should pay for them.

MacBandit
Oct 25, 2002, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by jayscheuerle


Energy bars are not the calorific equivalent of a meal replacement. They usually run between 200 & 290 calories apiece, which is nowhere near that of a typical meal. But, most "energy bars" are crap with sugars making up between 20% and 50% of their content, which is fine for a short term boost, but not exactly good for your body. If you have to eat these things, the high-protein bars are a better choice, especially if you're exerting yourself. A smarter move would be to snack on fruit and veggies, crack open a can/pouch of tuna or chicken for lunch (use whole grain bread if sandwiching) & eat whatever the heck you want for dinner, but with a reasonable portion. Walk. Do some sit-ups. Do ANYTHING other than watch the boob tube or surf the web. Most people take better care of their cars than they do their bodies, and one has to last 80 years running 24/7. Except for the aforementioned lardass. She'll be lucky to make it to 60.

A meal should not in most cases be larger then about 400 Calories. This is about the most your body can really absorb and deal with properly at a time. You should eat at least 5 meals a day. At 400 calories for 5 meals that's 2000 Calories which is more then the average American can burn in a day. Most Powerbars and the like have between 400-500 Calories. I have seen more and I have seen less but these are considered meal replacements.

MacBandit
Oct 25, 2002, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by otis
half-baked , all I meant to say is that you are a sad, angry person. I suppose though, that after all of your hard work (not to mention the thinking you had to do!) in presenting your argument against which I never argued, I may as well comment:

You, half-baked , are the problem. Your ideas, comments, and beliefs cause eating disorders (and so much more). If you have a daughter, doubtless she will have an eating disorder. And if she is never hospitalized, you will probably not be aware of it. She will have a low self-esteem because of the damage that you do to her. And probably she will learn to hate and be unhappy as you have.

I agree that people must take responsibility for their own lives. So then, must we all take responsibility for our country and its people. If you really want to learn a little about how womens self esteem is destroyed and how we have developed into a culture of sedentary fast-food junkies from people who have actually done some research, you could start with "The Beauty Myth," (Naomi Wolf) "Fast Food Nation" (Eric Schlosser) and "4 Arguments for the Elimination of Television" (Jerry Mander).

Half-baked , re-read your posts. Spelling and grammar aside, is this really how you wish to present yourself? As a loathsome, uncaring, sad, uninformed person? That's what I see.

Wow, macrumors is getting heavy. (no pun intended)


You are the definition of someone who plays the, "Blame Game". This is when someone places the blame on someone else for the problems they have. In doing so they have rendered themselves helpless in fixing the problem because the problem is not theres but someone elses. Therefore it's someone else who needs to change.

People are changed by other people I will admit that but in the end anything a person does is by there own doing.

MacBandit
Oct 25, 2002, 12:24 AM
I believe that the pay by weight is an execelent idea. Planes function by weight. They figure there weight before take off so they know how much fuel they need and how much thrust they will need based on the length of the runway. To give you an idea how much weight is a factor to a plane commercial jets have scales built into there running gear that give the cockpit up to the minute measurements on the weight of there bird.

I for one have been on a commercial jet that once all the people were loaded we had to wait for luggage to be unloaded so that the plane wasn't over loaded. The luggage had to make it to the airport by another plane. Luckily my luggage wasn't among the ones that were taken off (I usually pack one backpack for a 4 or 5 day trip and carry it on with me). The people who's luggage that was taken off showed up 5 hours later.

vniow
Oct 25, 2002, 12:44 AM
Hey see you're almost @ 1000 now MacBandit.

Or should I call you Mr. Spam?

MacBandit
Oct 25, 2002, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by edvniow
Hey see you're almost @ 1000 now MacBandit.

Or should I call you Mr. Spam?

Thanks V.. No no spam from me just spend way too much time here. Also having a fairly high WPM helps a lot.


What's with your fetish for rabbits? I have a pet house rabbit.

If you want to talk Spam talk to Jello he has an insanely high posts/day number.

vniow
Oct 25, 2002, 01:23 AM
Ha, it's cool.

Just noticed you posted an unusually high amount of posts today, but so did I, I guess.

Busy day on the forums.

MacBandit
Oct 25, 2002, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by edvniow
Ha, it's cool.

Just noticed you posted an unusually high amount of posts today, but so did I, I guess.

Busy day on the forums.

Hey you ever read Bunicula in school. It's about a vampire rabbit that sucks vegetables dry. Your current tar made me think about it. I was probably in 6th grade when I read it so that would have been about '87-'88.

It was a very busy day hear on the forums. A lot of newbies have been posting so there was a lot of work correcting and replying to them.

vniow
Oct 25, 2002, 01:37 AM
I did read Bunnicula!

Never got all the series, but absolutely luved the ones I did read.

The zombie veggies are after you!

jayscheuerle
Oct 25, 2002, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by MacBandit
Most Powerbars and the like have between 400-500 Calories. I have seen more and I have seen less but these are considered meal replacements.

That may be Bandit. Let me know who makes these loaf-sized meal replacements. The only PowerBars I can reference are the ones stashed here at work. There is a variety of Balance Bars @ 50g & 200 calories apiece and the exceedingly dense PowerBar Protein Plus (Powerbar's biggest), which weigh in at a whopping 78g (2.75 oz) & 290 calories apiece. These are the largest/heaviest bars that Fresh Fields sells. The only way I've seen to hit 500 calories in a single bar is to buy one of those Snicker's King Size Bars that weighs almost a quarter pound and has somewhere around 520 calories. If I ate two of those Protein Plus bars, I wouldn't be able to crap for two days. I've certainly never considered one of these to be a meal replacement, but I normally don't eat 5 meals a day either. I HAVE dropped around 20 lbs. since January by avoiding starches and eating nothing but fruit before noon, while joining a climbing gym (great fun!).

Whatever works I guess. I'm dying to hear who makes these 400 & 500 calorie PowerBars. Clue me in!

-Gotta love the internet. I checked out:

Comparisions (http://bicycling.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.runnersworld.com/nutrition/nuenergybar2.html)

and it pretty much tops out the Bars at 290 calories, with my aforementioned Protein Plus and the Opti-Pro Meal Bars the only ones in that spot. There's a wealth of other info there. Seems that runners are pretty obsessive... - j

MacBandit
Oct 25, 2002, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by jayscheuerle


That may be Bandit. Let me know who makes these loaf-sized meal replacements. The only PowerBars I can reference are the ones stashed here at work. There is a variety of Balance Bars @ 50g & 200 calories apiece and the exceedingly dense PowerBar Protein Plus (Powerbar's biggest), which weigh in at a whopping 78g (2.75 oz) & 290 calories apiece. These are the largest/heaviest bars that Fresh Fields sells. The only way I've seen to hit 500 calories in a single bar is to buy one of those Snicker's King Size Bars that weighs almost a quarter pound and has somewhere around 520 calories. If I ate two of those Protein Plus bars, I wouldn't be able to crap for two days. I've certainly never considered one of these to be a meal replacement, but I normally don't eat 5 meals a day either. I HAVE dropped around 20 lbs. since January by avoiding starches and eating nothing but fruit before noon, while joining a climbing gym (great fun!).

Whatever works I guess. I'm dying to hear who makes these 400 & 500 calorie PowerBars. Clue me in!

-Gotta love the internet. I checked out:

Comparisions (http://bicycling.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.runnersworld.com/nutrition/nuenergybar2.html)

and it pretty much tops out the Bars at 290 calories, with my aforementioned Protein Plus and the Opti-Pro Meal Bars the only ones in that spot. There's a wealth of other info there. Seems that runners are pretty obsessive... - j

I'll have to stop back by my local sports health store. I need some protein bars any way. Keep in mind that 300 Calories plus a sports drink or soda or something else adds up to meal. Also most people have a crutch they drink coffee or lattes or something else that adds calories to there overall daily allowance. So it really doesn't take much when you add everything together for the day to come up with a meal replacemnt. This is because quite frankly with all the little crap most people consume in a day they really should be eating smaller meals. Even if they are only eating actual meals 2 or 3 times a day.

Here is an excellent way to lose weight you might try. Cut out the carbs and sugars and to cut back on the calories a bit. At least keep track of everything. Go on a protein diet and do some exercise while drinking a ton of water. Walking on a tread mill at about 2.5-3MPH at maximum incline while consuming around 1/2 gallon of water every 1/2 hour you spend on the tread mill. If you do this twice a day for 1/2 hour you can drive your metabolism through the roof. Also eating more frequently in smaller amounts will also help increase your metabolism.

This will work for nearly everyone but some people have special needs. So if you have a health problems and you know who you are do not do this. If you have something that is working for you stick with it. This is just a suggestion of something I have seen work with many people.

jayscheuerle
Oct 25, 2002, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by MacBandit

The best way to lose weight is to basically cut out the carbs and sugars and to cut back on the calories a bit.

This is a personal pet peve of mine! People use the word "carbs" (even fitness and diet authors) when they mean starchy simple sugars such as flour (breads!), rice, corn, pasta, potatoes- things that can raise your insulin levels. Carbs also include all fruits and vegetables, where the majority of one's vitamins and minerals come from. I'm from Philadelphia (last year rated the fattest city in America!) and we have a print vendor who stops by every Wednesday with a big box of hot, soft-pretzels (and a brown mustard to boot) and then plops them down next to my work-area because I send him a lot of work. I haven't eaten these dough-balls in MONTHS, but I love the smell! It's tortuous self-denial and it only hardens my resolution. I can't deal with the boredom of a regular gym or treadmill, but I get around 3 miles of brisk walking to and from work every day, rain or shine, and the climbing gym has been a challenging way to put a protein-demanding workload on my muscles, so that I haven't lost much of them while dropping the lbs.

The crazy thing is that most people, even the grotesquely rotund ones, know good and well what healthy foods are, and if we just ate like the big naked monkeys we are instead of the processed food junkies we've become, we'd all be in better shape. More power to ya! - j

Currently 6'1", 178lbs., 20% body fat, & 37 yrs....

MacBandit
Oct 25, 2002, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by jayscheuerle


This is a personal pet peve of mine! People use the word "carbs" (even fitness and diet authors) when they mean starchy simple sugars such as flour (breads!), rice, corn, pasta, potatoes- things that can raise your insulin levels. Carbs also include all fruits and vegetables, where the majority of one's vitamins and minerals come from. I'm from Philadelphia (last year rated the fattest city in America!) and we have a print vendor who stops by every Wednesday with a big box of hot, soft-pretzels (and a brown mustard to boot) and then plops them down next to my work-area because I send him a lot of work. I haven't eaten these dough-balls in MONTHS, but I love the smell! It's tortuous self-denial and it only hardens my resolution. I can't deal with the boredom of a regular gym or treadmill, but I get around 3 miles of brisk walking to and from work every day, rain or shine, and the climbing gym has been a challenging way to put a protein-demanding workload on my muscles, so that I haven't lost much of them while dropping the lbs.

The crazy thing is that most people, even the grotesquely rotund ones, know good and well what healthy foods are, and if we just ate like the big naked monkeys we are instead of the processed food junkies we've become, we'd all be in better shape. More power to ya! - j

I understand that Carbs and Starch = Sugar. I just used carbs separate from sugars in my post to simplify things and cut down on the length of the post. Fruits can be bad for you in large enough quantities because they too are basically nothing but sugar. Yes it's a type of sugar that's easier for you body to deal with but none the less it's sugar which equals fat. For everyone else out there sugar=fat it's just the way it is unless you have an extremely high metabolism.

I'm glad to see that you know that you have to exercise while dieting otherwise you will lose muscle mass which really isn't a problem for most very heavy people because it take a lot of muscle to tote around a lot of fat. When dieting you are starving you self this is how you trick your body into consuming the fat in your body but if you aren't exercising instead of eating the fat it will consume muscle first because it's easier for the body to absorb and use. The body can not consume muscle that is being used though so by exercising you prevent the muscle loss.

jayscheuerle
Oct 25, 2002, 11:23 AM
Obesity On The Rise (http://theonion.com/onion3839/wdyt_3839.html)

diorio
Oct 25, 2002, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by otis
half-baked , all I meant to say is that you are a sad, angry person. I suppose though, that after all of your hard work (not to mention the thinking you had to do!) in presenting your argument against which I never argued, I may as well comment:

You, half-baked , are the problem. Your ideas, comments, and beliefs cause eating disorders (and so much more). If you have a daughter, doubtless she will have an eating disorder. And if she is never hospitalized, you will probably not be aware of it. She will have a low self-esteem because of the damage that you do to her. And probably she will learn to hate and be unhappy as you have.

I agree that people must take responsibility for their own lives. So then, must we all take responsibility for our country and its people. If you really want to learn a little about how womens self esteem is destroyed and how we have developed into a culture of sedentary fast-food junkies from people who have actually done some research, you could start with "The Beauty Myth," (Naomi Wolf) "Fast Food Nation" (Eric Schlosser) and "4 Arguments for the Elimination of Television" (Jerry Mander).

Half-baked , re-read your posts. Spelling and grammar aside, is this really how you wish to present yourself? As a loathsome, uncaring, sad, uninformed person? That's what I see.

Wow, macrumors is getting heavy. (no pun intended)

Well,you better count me as part of the problem also, because I also believe that fat people are responsible for their fat asses. Sun Baked tried to tell you so several times, but you just come back and tell him that his is an inconsiderate a** h***. Maybe you should reread your posts and sunbaked posts and then reconsider.

alex_ant
Oct 25, 2002, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by diorio
Well,you better count me as part of the problem also, because I also believe that fat people are responsible for their fat asses.
I don't think anyone is arguing that they aren't... I think what otis was getting at was that perhaps it's not right to treat them with such disrespect? Surely you must know some fat people yourself - would you tell them that e.g. "you're responsible for your own fat ass" to their face? If so, then I think you're more cruel than most. I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to debate this without resorting to insults. Like I said before, I think if it were so simple to become slender and healthy, more fat people would be doing it - saying "just exercise and eat better" is probably more like asking an aquaphobic person to jump into the deep end or telling a shy person to "just talk" or telling a smoker or drug addict to "just stop."

jayscheuerle
Oct 25, 2002, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by diorio

an inconsiderate a** h***.

Now maybe it's just me, but I don't think anyone read that and said "ant hill" or "ape hand", so what's the point in putting the asterixs there? (asterae?)

You meant "ass hole".
I read "ass hole" and said "ass hole" in my mind.
Everyone knows a** h*** is a cover for "ass hole".

Why not say "ass hole"? You certainly didn't have to modify "hole" at all. Is it less offensive to imply the word than to actually spell it out? I don't think so. There are certainly more accurate descriptions than a slang term for one's sphincter that could apply.

Here's a test. Are these any less offensive because I blotto'd them?

F*ckface
C*nt Breath
N*gger Lover
C*mel Jockey
D*ck Wad
Fist *******
Dipsh*t (okay, this is getting fun)

I don't think so.

Perhaps we could say that one group takes the "Apologist" viewpoint and the other takes the "Personal Responsibility" side, but that might be too specific, eh?..... - j

jayscheuerle
Oct 25, 2002, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by alex_ant

Like I said before, I think if it were so simple to become slender and healthy, more fat people would be doing it

It is simple. Burn more calories than you take in.

It's just not easy or effortless.

otis
Oct 25, 2002, 01:21 PM
half-baked, middle finger, and the rest of you name-calling twits...the reason that you are part of the problem is because of your attitudes. You throw around "lard-ass" and other names like white people used to use the word "******." Do you see the connection? The hate that you harbor for people only because of their weight puts you in the same class as any other rascist or sexist fool. I'm not talking about whether or not someone should have to pay for two seats on an airplane. I have not given my opinion on that. I am not talking about blaming unseen forces for my weight problem or inablility to maintain a healthy diet. I am quite healthy, active, and don't have a weight problem, I just happen to care about people. I am talking about the prevailing attitudes toward over-weight people in our society that seem to make it ok to insult and ridicule them as was done in this thread by the use of derogatory terms such as "fat-ass."

The fact that some of you have so little conscience as to be able to throw around insults and hateful attitudes toward over-weight people after one person in this thread already admitted to being obese and another wrote of his moms recent death due to clinical obesity is quite sad. More sad for you, though, then for the people that you insulted. I'm sure that they are used to the bile that people like you spew out. But you, half-baked, middle finger, and your morally vacant peers, can not hope to escape the hate that you have inside of you.

Please do not breed.

jayscheuerle
Oct 25, 2002, 01:37 PM
"******"!

You said "******"??!!

Listen up you *** **** *** ******* ****** ******, I'm tired of hearing you go off on your ****** little tirades about a bunch of ******* ******* that you don't give a ****** **** about. What ******* ******* holier than though ******* perch are you standing on? Is this a ******* insensitivity issue or is it about some ******* not wanting to be burdened with taking up the slack of some *** ***'s lifestyle CHOICE? So *** *** people are seen as being lazy and cursed with a lack of self control. ******* homeless people are seen as lazy too. Everybody's got a ******* excuse for why their lifestyle choice was not their choice. There is no ******* hate implied here, just a lack of compassion. Big ******* deal. MVP. I ******* like that you ******* genius. How 'bout I stop breeding, by pulling my ******* **** out right before I shoot my ******* **** a blow it all over your ******* smug-*** face? Works for me. *******, you ******* pinhead...

otis
Oct 25, 2002, 02:08 PM
Hit a nerve there, did I Jay? No hate there, you are all love.

Now, think for a moment about why you had to use the * key so much. Let me make it easier for you, your head is probably aching. Why do you think we aren't allowed to use all those bad words in forums like this? Because they offend people, Jay-bird! It's not helpful or productive or, darnit, it's just not nice to be so offensive. It makes people sad, Jay. It makes them cry. And your last post helped to prove my point. Now give me that asterisk key and go do your geometry homework.

vniow
Oct 25, 2002, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by otis
half-baked, middle finger, and the rest of you name-calling twits...the reason that you are part of the problem is because of your attitudes. You throw around "lard-ass" and other names like white people used to use the word "******." Do you see the connection? The hate that you harbor for people only because of their weight puts you in the same class as any other rascist or sexist fool. I'm not talking about whether or not someone should have to pay for two seats on an airplane. I have not given my opinion on that. I am not talking about blaming unseen forces for my weight problem or inablility to maintain a healthy diet. I am quite healthy, active, and don't have a weight problem, I just happen to care about people. I am talking about the prevailing attitudes toward over-weight people in our society that seem to make it ok to insult and ridicule them as was done in this thread by the use of derogatory terms such as "fat-ass."

The fact that some of you have so little conscience as to be able to throw around insults and hateful attitudes toward over-weight people after one person in this thread already admitted to being obese and another wrote of his moms recent death due to clinical obesity is quite sad. More sad for you, though, then for the people that you insulted. I'm sure that they are used to the bile that people like you spew out. But you, half-baked, middle finger, and your morally vacant peers, can not hope to escape the hate that you have inside of you.

Please do not breed.


You know what?
I've just looked through all your 5 posts and this is pretty much what you say every time.
You just sit there and type insults at people without even attempting to explain your side of things.

If this kind of ***** keeps up, I'm going to have this thread closed.

jayscheuerle
Oct 25, 2002, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by otis
Hit a nerve there, did I Jay? No hate there, you are all love.

Now, think for a moment about why you had to use the * key so much. Let me make it easier for you, your head is probably aching. Why do you think we aren't allowed to use all those bad words in forums like this? Because they offend people, Jay-bird! It's not helpful or productive or, darnit, it's just not nice to be so offensive. It makes people sad, Jay. It makes them cry. And your last post helped to prove my point. Now give me that asterisk key and go do your geometry homework.

Ummm, Otis... you missed the point. An asterix does absolutely nothing to remove the offensiveness from the words. It just masks the spelling. Either use the offensive word in all its glory, or find a more accurate word to convey a thought.

The last time I had geometry homework was during the Carter Administration....

mymemory
Oct 25, 2002, 03:16 PM
As a exchange student twice in my life in the US and based of the point of view of the rest of the students with who I exchage thoughts I can say:

We have never seen so many fat people in out entire live as we saw when we where in the United State.

In my personal case, last night I saw a really fat guy on tv, it was funny, he was one of the people protesting about something. The thing is that this man is not even the shadow of the fat people I have seen in the US.

For all of you to know, I'm 100% convence that there are extra ingredients to make people fat in the foot in the united state. There is not reason why every body that comes from traveling in the US comes fater even with the same diet we have here.

You can eat the same thing, even going to mac donalds, wendis, burger king every day for a week here and you are not gonna get as fat as you get in the US.

There is the mith that fat people looks healthier and I sure the goverment in the US is doing something to make people in the US looks like that no matter what they eat.

otis
Oct 25, 2002, 03:55 PM
Well, Ms V, if you really read my posts you would see that I have, indeed, explained my side of things. Forums like this provide an easy way for people to disrespect and offend without having to answer for it. Beside suggesting some reading material that is pertinent to the subject of the thread, that is my side of things. This is not the first time I have seen such disrespect and cruelty directed at a group of people here at MacRumors. Gay people have also been a popular target. Having two members of my family with eating disorders made me want to speak up this time.

Yes, Ms V, perhaps this thread should be shut down. It's just too bad you didn't see that after the fourth or fifth "lard-ass."

Who's really bein' nasty?