The U.S. GP Thread

[iGav]

Just a quick one today... even though I missed posting for the last 2 races (for those not in the know, I've been sampling some of Bavaria's finest V10's myself ;)) qualifying has just finished and Trulli has nicked it for Toyota's first ever pole position.

However, the big news of the event, is that Michelin have requested that they be allowed to ship over new 'Barcelona' spec tyres for their teams, as they've admitted that it's unlikely that their current tyres will last the race distance.

Indeed such is the seriousness of the situation, Renault have already stated that they won't race with their current tyres, and BAR-Honda and Red Bull Racing are awaiting clarification with regards to their decision. Only McLaren seem happy with the tyre.

It'll be interesting to see how this pans out, because Brundle speculated that they'd be in breach of around 5 regulations if the teams do swap rubber, which surely cannot go unpunished?

Funnily it comes only a couple of weeks after the FIA issued a statement to the teams warning that the tyres should be durable enough to complete a race distance, without safety concerns.

Qualifying

1. Trulli
2. Räikkönen
3. Button
4. Fisichella
5. Schumacher
6. Alonso
7. Barrichello
8. Sato.

That order might change though pending the outcome of the Michelin crisis.

Thoughts?

[evoluzione]

guess i'll be watching this one as i'm stateside...missed a race or two this season, saw some top stuff so far mind.

so how about some write ups about your test drives or whatever you've been up to eh???? or did i miss those already?

what exactly am i missing this year though, why is schuey not challenging for anything these days??


oh, and my bet is, kimi will win (or alonso) :)

[barneygumble]

raikkonen for the win, probably first by the first corner, providing no mechanical failures. Now i have to stay up till 3:30 am to watch it

[mad jew]

Never one to be different, I'm thinking Kimi too. :)

[iGav]

so how about some write ups about your test drives or whatever you've been up to eh???? or did i miss those already?

You haven't, I've not had time to write them up yet... in a nutshell it involved the new M5 :) but not the 'Ring though :(

what exactly am i missing this year though, why is schuey not challenging for anything these days??)

Several reasons... but basically rule changes designed at stopping their domination. Been that way since 2002.

Now i have to stay up till 3:30 am to watch it

I forget how bad it must be for you guys down their, I hate getting up early to watch the Aussie and Japanese GP, but you guys have to do that for a large chunk of the season, kudos. ;)

Anyway... Michelingate continues... at the moment their request for a temp chicane at Turn 13 has been turned down, as seemingly has their request to be allowed to use new 'Barcelona' spec tyres.

And rightly so IMHO.

ORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN REPRESENTATIVES OF MICHELIN IN INDIANAPOLIS AND THE FIA FORMULA ONE RACE DIRECTOR
19.06.2005

Letter from Representatives of Michelin to Charlie Whiting, the FIA Formula One Race Director:

Saturday June 18 2005
Indianapolis

Charlie Whiting, FIA Race Director and Safety delegate

Dear Mr Whiting

Having analysed and fully evaluated the tyre failures that have occurred over the Indianapolis Grand Prix practice sessions we have been unable to identify a root cause.

The current rules and timescale do not permit the use of an alternative tyre solution and the race must be performed with the qualifying tyres.

Michelin has in the sole interest of safety informed its partner teams that we do not have total assurance that all tyres that qualified the cars can be used unless the vehicle speed in turn 13 can be reduced.

Michelin very much regrets this situation, but has taken this decision after careful consideration and in the best interests of safety at the event.

We trust that the FIA can understand our position and we remain at your disposal if you want any further information.

Pierre Dupasquier
Michelin Motorsport Director

Nick Shorrock
Director of Michelin F1 activities

Cc:
Bernie Ecclestone
Michelin teams
Ron Dennis (West McLaren-Mercedes)
Flavio Briatore (Mild Seven Renault F1)
Frank Williams (BMW WilliamsF1 Team)
Peter Sauber (Sauber Petronas)
Christian Horner (Red Bull Racing)
Nick Fry (B-A-R Honda)
John Howett (Panasonic Toyota Racing)


Letter from Charlie Whiting, the FIA Formula One Race Director, in reply to above letter from Representatives of Michelin:

19 June, 2005

Dear Mr Dupasquier,
Dear Mr Shorrock,

We have received your letter of 18 June.

We are very surprised that this difficulty has arisen. As you know, each team is allowed to bring two different types of tyre to an event so as to ensure that a back-up (usually of lower performance) is available should problems occur. It is hard to understand why you have not supplied your teams with such a tyre given your years of experience at Indianapolis.

That the teams you supply are not in possession of such a tyre will also be a matter for the FIA to consider in due course under Article 151c of the International Sporting Code.

No doubt you will inform your teams what is the maximum safe speed for their cars in Turn 13. We will remind them of the need to follow your advice for safety reasons. We will also ask them to ensure their cars do not obstruct other competitors.

Some of the teams have raised with us the possibility of running a tyre which was not used in qualifying. We have told them this would be a breach of the rules to be considered by the stewards. We believe the penalty would not be exclusion but would have to be heavy enough to ensure that no team was tempted to use qualifying tyres in the future.

Another possibility would be for the relevant teams repeatedly to change the affected tyre during the race (we understand you have told your teams the left rear is safe for a maximum of ten laps at full speed). If the technical delegate and the stewards were satisfied that each change was made because the tyre would otherwise fail (thus for genuine safety reasons) and that the relevant team were not gaining an advantage, there would be no penalty. If this meant using tyres additional to a teams’ allocation, the stewards would consider all the circumstances in deciding what penalty, if any, to apply.

Finally, it has been suggested that a chicane should be laid out in Turn 13. I am sure you will appreciate that this is out of the question. To change the course in order to help some of the teams with a performance problem caused by their failure to bring suitable equipment to the race would be a breach of the rules and grossly unfair to those teams which have come to Indianapolis with the correct tyres.

Yours sincerely,

Charlie Whiting
FIA Formula One Race Director

cc: Bernie Ecclestone
Ron Dennis (West McLaren-Mercedes)
Flavio Briatore (Mild Seven Renault F1)
Frank Williams (BMW WilliamsF1 Team)
Peter Sauber (Sauber Petronas)
Christian Horner (Red Bull Racing)
Nick Fry (B-A-R Honda)
John Howett (Panasonic Toyota Racing)
Jean Todt (Scuderia Ferrari)
Colin Kolles (Jordan Grand Prix)
Paul Stoddart (Minardi F1 Team)

Formula One Press Corps

[iGav]

I honestly can't believe the stance Michelin are taking on this... unbelievable. :mad: wanting to change the tyre specs or wanting the layout of the circuit changed and if the FIA don't, then they'll throw a paddy and won't compete... or in otherwords. Blackmail.

Rinky dink link (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/190605-03.html)

[MacRy]

It is a bit childish of Michelin really isn't it. They've known about the problems awaiting them with the Indie track for months now and should have thought about it beforehand. Let's hope that it isn't just a six car race this afternoon though ;)

[russed]

how bizzare!

i know michelin are in trouble, but once again ferarri are being childish.

[Don't panic]

how bizzare!

i know michelin are in trouble, but once again ferarri are being childish.


???????
I can't believe you want to peg this on ferrari!!!
man, some people really WANT to be blind!

[russed]

???????
I can't believe you want to peg this on ferrari!!!
man, some people really WANT to be blind!

well to be honest, i cant actually watch it - we are having a thunder storm and all tv is off (bummer had better be back for top gear). i know it is michelins problem, but if ferarri had voted to put in a chicane in the last lap the race would have happened. surely there could have been some form of compromise - all bridgestone drivers start ahead of the michelins. there are about 150000 people there who have paid good money to see a race, one could have happend but ferarri were the only team to stop it happening at that point.

[Leeloo the 5th]

Let's hope that it isn't just a six car race this afternoon though ;) Well it is! The public is angry and leaving, some are throwing garbage on the track. It isn't much of a competition, really...

[russed]

Well it is! The public is angry and leaving, some are throwing garbage on the track. It isn't much of a competition, really...

f1 has been getting stupid for a few years now. the politics is crazy and now this just takes the biscuit.

[garybUK]

Well because Bridgestone and associated with Firestone who supply tyres for the Indie cars... why should they have an advantage... why is it even being raced there on their stupid track?? there arn't any American teams in the race anyway.

[dobbin]

Watching the ITV coverage - I can't understand why everyone seems to be blaming the FIA, Ferrari, the Michelin teams, Indianapolis circuit officials, the drivers, Ecclestone etc etc.

No-one seems to have a bad word to say about Michelin, who in my opinion are entirely responsible for the problem.

Michelin are paid millions to develop tyres for each race-track and they have got this one totally wrong. They should be compensating the teams, the spectators etc, but no-one seems to blame them at all. Martin Brundle is the worst - he doesn't seem to understand that this is serious sport and there are rules that have to be followed. They can't just change the rules or the track because Michelin messed up.

Or am I missing something?

[skunk]

I agree: 100% Michelin's fault.

[CmdrLaForge]

Michael wins.

I cannot believe why everyone blames Ferrari. Its Michelins fault. Period.

[Symtex]

I think Max Mosley is the one to blame. His lack of understanding the F1 motorsports and refusal to bend the rules to accomodate thousand of spectator who has paid hard working money on this event is the cause in all of this.

[CmdrLaForge]

I think Max Mosley is the one to blame. His lack of understanding the F1 motorsports and refusal to bend the rules to accomodate thousand of spectator who has paid hard working money on this event is the cause in all of this.

It is a very sad day for the sport and formula one. I am not sure why you blame Mosley.

But again - very very sad day for the sports and for everyone who went there and paid a lot of money.

:mad: :(

[takao]

i blame them all together.. michelin for the tyres, all the teams for not getting a agreement, the FIA who weren't able to prevent this farce and perhaps even the track itself...i mean a track who is in worse condition than normal streets ..

well at least the 3. austrian got his points this year... looks like that's a record for a century

[mac-er]

I didn't think anyone watched the U.S. Grand Prix in the U.S.

[Toeknee]

I watched it... just to see how the fans reacted at the end. I'd be pretty pissed if I paid $85-180 to watch a quality race just to see 6 cars (4 of which bring up the rear in the points) parade around a race track. I'd be asking for a refund... not sure if I would get it though. But I agree you do have to blame Michellin for the fiasco. Can't blame the Bridgestone teams for running nothing was wrong with their tires. Should be an interesting race in Magny-Cours as far a the points standings are concerned.

[Veldek]

Can anyone please answer my question? The teams wanted a chicane in the last lap to have less speed. Why didn't they just drive slower in this lap instead of blaming the raceway?

[dobbin]

Don't get me wrong - I am sorry for the fans today - but $85 is cheap for F1.

Its £95 for the cheapest ticket at the British GP ($173.43)

[dobbin]

Can anyone please answer my question? The teams wanted a chicane in the last lap to have less speed. Why didn't they just drive slower in this lap instead of blaming the raceway?

It could be dangerous with the 6 bridgestone cars still going full speed.

[Toeknee]

Well from what the Speed Channel said was that they wanted a chicane at turn 13 to slow the cars down. This would have stayed throughout the race. Teams also said that they would have 3 practice laps to get used to the track configuration but Trulli would not have been able to complete these 3 laps because he didn't have enough fuel. Talk about running light. :o And yes $85 is pretty cheap compared to other tracks (although this isn't really a track built for F1 just one built inside an oval) but its not cheap when you're a poor starving college student as I am. :) I was actually considering going to see this race too.

[Veldek]

It could be dangerous with the 6 bridgestone cars still going full speed.Not more dangerous than in other races when the top drivers are much faster than the slower ones. And as everybody knew they were going slower, I don't see the problem.

[skunk]

The problem is that if Michelin refused their approval for using their tyres, can you imagine the insurance problems if they went ahead?

[Toeknee]

hmm you think that USGP banner that I got will be worth something couple years down the road? heh. Not since Champ Cars refusing to run at Texas Motor Speedway because of the G loads going around the turn has something like this happened. Granted no one raced there.

[iGav]

Michelin are paid millions to develop tyres for each race-track and they have got this one totally wrong. They should be compensating the teams, the spectators etc, but no-one seems to blame them at all. Martin Brundle is the worst - he doesn't seem to understand that this is serious sport and there are rules that have to be followed. They can't just change the rules or the track because Michelin messed up.

What's incredible is that the Michelin's were likely only capable of 10 laps before their safety was compromised, yet the message via pit-to-car to Schu in the Ferrari indicated that their tyre wear was normal and that the tyre was good for 100 laps :eek: that's not even a slight miscalculation though is it on Michelin's part, the advantage that gave them in qualifying alone is incredible, those tyres amounted to qualifiers so the whole grid was compromised right from the start.

Also I can't believe some of the fans behaviour... what kind of simpleton throws bottles and beer cans at and into the paths of a racing car? :rolleyes: :mad: there's no excuse. Wankers.

Finally Michelin's sheer arrogance throughout this affair has been utterly astounding, either way I expect that the ramifications for their actions will be very serious indeed... and rightly so. Maybe even to the point of their exclusion from the 2005 World Championships, either way... I can't see this being allowed to slip, especially considering the FIA's recent statement regarding tyre safety.

Big thumbs up to Ferrari, Jordan and Minardi and their respective drivers for performing in the most difficult of circumstances though, they were in a totally no-win situation.

All in all though it's a very sorry state of affairs, and I really just can't see F1 racing in the U.S. again.

[skunk]

Apparently the Michelins weighed 6 Kg less than the Bridgestones. Hardly surprising they weren't up to it if they skimped on 6 Kg of rubber per tyre.

[barneygumble]

I am glad my alarm clock did not go off at 3:30 am like i programmed it to.

Arrogance is expected they are french after all, sorry for pigeon holing a culture but hey it is true :rolleyes:

Another dark day in the saga of formula one.

I respect everybody's decision in this case, especially the likes of mclaren, renault and williams who knew what they were going to lose, but saety is paramount for all concerned. Ferrari are playing hardball, good for them they had not won a race till now, and this is just like them but within the rules.

Oh well, i wonder how many fans will turn up to next years race not many i suspect

Makes me glad there will be a control tyre in 2008, hopefully bridgestone

[evoluzione]

Arrogance is expected they are french after all, sorry for pigeon holing a culture but hey it is true :rolleyes:


hey, sterotypes exist for a reason mate, i'm with ya.



well, i actually watched the whole race, i couldn't quite believe they were going to carry on, but i think they did the right thing by running it with 6 cars. Michelin should be penalised, and no-one else. Max Mosely i believe is right, although i did not think so at first. i still can't quite believe it all.


hey, anyone want to help me out with ideas for my new website??? i just registered saveF1.com

[Symtex]

Those who blame Michelin for the 6 car race are getting it all wrong. Michelin has admitted their mistake but had made several proposition to the FIA. It's the FIA that refuses every single proposal. I blame the FIA.

[evoluzione]

Those who blame Michelin for the 6 car race are getting it all wrong. Michelin has admitted their mistake but had made several proposition to the FIA. It's the FIA that refuses every single proposal. I blame the FIA.


i also thought that at first, but then there is no excuse for Michelin's **** up with regard to the tyres, is there???

[takao]

i also thought that at first, but then there is no excuse for Michelin's **** up with regard to the tyres, is there???

well it depends when or better if they were informed about the changed track conditions at indy ... sombody said that they didn't get informed (but that could be a rumour)

it's kinda ironic how the "roughening up the track" to get more grip for nascar,cart with their conservative designed slicks but lacking aerodynamical downforce completly ruined the michelins on the F1 cars who didn't needed that additional grip because they have more aerodynamical downforce...

[mac-er]

This thread brings up a question...

I don't know anyone in the US who follows F1 or even CART with any seriousness, or even watches it for that matter.

Does anyone in Europe follow NASCAR or understand it?

[skunk]

Those who blame Michelin for the 6 car race are getting it all wrong. Michelin has admitted their mistake but had made several proposition to the FIA.Exactly: it's Michelin's mistake. It's not really up to the FIA to let them off the hook.

[skunk]

This thread brings up a question...

I don't know anyone in the US who follows F1 or even CART with any seriousness, or even watches it for that matter.

Does anyone in Europe follow NASCAR or understand it?
Nobody I know. Going around and around all those oval tracks for hours on end? Is that NASCAR? Makes no sense to me. :confused:

[barneygumble]

This thread brings up a question...

I don't know anyone in the US who follows F1 or even CART with any seriousness, or even watches it for that matter.

Does anyone in Europe follow NASCAR or understand it?

nope, probably the most boring form of motorsport possible, the only good thing is the monumental crashes that happen regularly :D They even turn each other around with no penalty that ainyt right

[skunk]

nope, probably the most boring form of motorsport possible, the only good thing is the monumental crashes that happen regularly :D They even turn each other around with no penalty that ainyt rightIn my country, that's called stock car racing. And you're not even from Europe...
:rolleyes:

[barneygumble]

In my country, that's called stock car racing. And you're not even from Europe...
:rolleyes:

I know isn't it goood!!! :p

[mac-er]

Nobody I know. Going around and around all those oval tracks for hours on end? Is that NASCAR? Makes no sense to me. :confused:

Stock car racing is fun!

And they will be on a road course next week. :)

[pinks]

Exactly: it's Michelin's mistake. It's not really up to the FIA to let them off the hook.

I don't think Michelin were asking to be let off the hook, as you suggest. Rather, they were putting forward proposals to salvage a bad situation - proposals which were universally rejected by the FIA and Ferrari.

Yes, Michelin are at serious fault and should (and will) be heavily penalised; but, by refusing to negotiate a safe and workable solution, the FIA and Ferrari turned a genuine health-and-safety concern into a globally televised farce.

[mad jew]

I blame Michelin for not providing appropriate tyres however the point of F1, like all motorsport, is entertainment and as such, a race with more than six cars should have taken place.

[Counterfit]

Even if Ferrari had agreed to the chicane, nothing would have changed:
Finally, it has been suggested that a chicane should be laid out in Turn 13. I am sure you will appreciate that this is out of the question. To change the course in order to help some of the teams with a performance problem caused by their failure to bring suitable equipment to the race would be a breach of the rules and grossly unfair to those teams which have come to Indianapolis with the correct tyres. Last paragraph of Charlie Whiting's letter to Michelin. Linky-poo (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/190605-02.html).

Between this monumental cock-up (sometimes British slang fits best ;)) and Bernie's comments on Friday/Saturday regarding (and basically restating for us old-hands) his view on women driving in F1, which got plastered on SportsCenter, F1 in the US has taken quite the popularity hit.

my FantasyF1 results: Rubens: 39 points, Nick: 0, Toyota -10, BMW: 0, Bridgestone: 12. The fantasy winner has 175 points, to move up 46 spots in 191st (versus my gain of 6 places for 196th). His team: Monteiro/Karthikeyan: 48 each, Ferrari/Ferrari 45/22, Bridgestone: 12. Each of the overall top 3 gained 5 points, but held their position.

Any other Yank that still cares about F1, and is willing to put a minimal effort into a free fantasy league is welcome to join my group at FantasyF1 (http://fantasyf1.org.uk). Group name: Yanks R Us. Group Password: unclesam.

[anonymous161]

First of all, Ferrari had nothing to do with the decision of whether the other teams raced or not. Let's put that to bed. Ferrari did an excellent job this weekend.
That said, the regulations tell the tire supplier to bring two compounds of tire to each grand prix, so Michelin should have had a more reserved, "safer" tire for it's teams to use. By not doing this, the entire weekend was Michelin's fault, plain and simple. None of the proposals that the Michelin teams made were fair to the three teams that came to the grand prix with the "proper equipment." Adding a chicane would have been changing the race course to benefit the teams with the defect. I think putting a tire chicane in an untested corner like that would have been quite dangerous.

The FIA offered to set up a speed trap like that used in the pits, for the Michelin teams to use but the teams turned that down because Ferrari (and Jordan and Minardi) wouldn't have had to slow down in the corner. The teams simply wanted the FIA to do whatever they asked them to and they thought that their majority status would allow them to push everyone around. I wouldn't mind if the teams were penalized and Michelin were kicked out of the sport.

The teams should have just changed their tires in the pitlane and taken whatever penalty came from that. They wouldn't have been excluded and most of all they would have won a moral victory against the FIA. Instead, they and Michelin simply look like spoiled children.

I live in the US and I watch F1 and I probably will no matter what happens after this, but any chance at increasing the overall popularity of F1 here was pretty much murdered today.

[mad jew]

Ferrari did an excellent job this weekend.


Don't confuse an excellent result with an excellent job. Ferrari did neither a good nor a bad job this weekend but rather a mediocre job, as they have pretty much all season. I agree that they don't deserve any blame here though.

[Don't panic]

I don't think Michelin were asking to be let off the hook, as you suggest. Rather, they were putting forward proposals to salvage a bad situation - proposals which were universally rejected by the FIA and Ferrari.

Yes, Michelin are at serious fault and should (and will) be heavily penalised; but, by refusing to negotiate a safe and workable solution, the FIA and Ferrari turned a genuine health-and-safety concern into a globally televised farce.

that's complete BS. especially putting ANY blame on ferrari, jordan or minardi. just imagine if in the first three GP bridgestone would have come with unrunnable tires that lasted ten laps and then saying: our tires suck. can you put in a couple chicanes so we can be competitive? this is EXACTLY what michelin proposed. everybody else would have (rightly so) laughed it off
sorry but the blame goes squarely on michelin, briatore and the other team managers.
they had options: first and foremost, slow down on the dangerous turn or come back to the pit to legally change the compromised tires (yes, one at the time, but hey if it's safety they are after...). if they cared about the public they could have changed the tires and be disqualified later.
to DEMAND to change the track so your subpar material can have advantages is ridiculous.
It was just blackmail and politics.
they should get an additional penalty (in points) for the damage they brought to the sport to be decided upon at the end of the season.
I think they (michelin and the 7 chicken teams) also should directly reinbourse the fans there not only of the ticket, but of hotel and airfare money (and send a set of signed hats for boost :) ).
Man, I am glad I went to montreal and not here.
I would be fuming.

[anonymous161]

Yes, I think F1 owes the fans (and Tony George) quite a bit of money on this deal.

[mac-er]

Also I can't believe some of the fans behaviour... what kind of simpleton throws bottles and beer cans at and into the paths of a racing car? :rolleyes: :mad: there's no excuse. Wankers.


That is the way a lot of American race fans show displeasure.
They did it when a NASCAR race ended under caution last year and the most popular driver lost because of it.

They threw seat cushions one time.

At least they don't riot and throw each other off the side of stadium railings. :rolleyes: :D

[Counterfit]

I don't think the team managers really should be held to much blame. If I were one, and was told "Our tyres suck, and your drivers could crash in the fastest turn of the circuit", I'd pull them out too. Of course, good ol' Pauly blames the FIA and Ferrari (http://www.minardi.it/press/dettaglio.asp?IDComunicato=1873&LN=UK&IDGara=131&IDComunicatiTipo=5) for the lack of a compromise. Nevermind Charlie's statement this morning (the 19th) that such a change to the track would be a) illegal and 2) unfair to teams running equipment that can endure the stress.

[Rod Rod]

Michelin's real penalty will be outside of F1. All this bad publicity should cost them lots of sales.

I missed today's event and I'm sorry I did. It would have been neat to see a six car race. It must have looked like either qualifying runs or practice laps.

[clayj]

Michelin's real penalty will be outside of F1. All this bad publicity should cost them lots of sales.

I missed today's event and I'm sorry I did. It would have been neat to see a six car race. It must have looked like either qualifying runs or practice laps.Seriously... I would definitely think twice about buying Michelins after hearing about the screw-up yesterday. How they can spend as much money as they do on those tires and to claim they'd wear out so quickly boggles the mind.

[Toeknee]

I dunno both of our cars have Michellins and they've done exceptionally well. I'd only buy Bridgestones as a last resort... ::cough:: tread seperation ::cough. As far as CART goes they do go to many road courses notably Laguna Seca but most of the time i'm watching they are on 1.5mi or mile ovals.... tons of fun. NASCAR but with less bodywork.

[aloofman]

This thread brings up a question...

I don't know anyone in the US who follows F1 or even CART with any seriousness, or even watches it for that matter.

Does anyone in Europe follow NASCAR or understand it?

It's amazing how auto racing has conspired to kill my interest in it.

NASCAR's obsession with huge ovals mars what is often pretty competitive racing. And the redneck faction of their fanbase annoys me.

CART/IRL is practically dead, with only the Indy 500's name generating any kind of excitement now. They probably have about 1/50th the TV audience of televised poker on cable.

I've never warmed up to Formula 1 much. I really admire the cars' performance, but it seems like most races are decided in qualifying because there's a distinct lack of passing. I've watched a couple of races in which the same three drivers held the first three places the whole race.

Today's fiasco alienated many of the small number of Americans who cared about F1. I'm sure it will go on for years elsewhere, but I doubt it will ever be back in the U.S. Let's put it this way: results of the college baseball tournament got higher mention on sports highlight shows here.

I guess it's back to MotoGP and small circuit races for me. :rolleyes:

[Counterfit]

I'd only buy Bridgestones as a last resort... ::cough:: tread seperation ::cough. Funny, that's part of the reason why I wouldn't buy a Ford... :rolleyes:

[Diatribe]

Don't confuse an excellent result with an excellent job. Ferrari did neither a good nor a bad job this weekend but rather a mediocre job, as they have pretty much all season. I agree that they don't deserve any blame here though.

Huh. What are you smoking? They placed fifth with race tires and decent fuel, while Trulli for example had almost no fuel in his car and all Michelins drove with qualification tires... how is that not a great job?

[iGav]

Those who blame Michelin for the 6 car race are getting it all wrong. Michelin has admitted their mistake but had made several proposition to the FIA. It's the FIA that refuses every single proposal. I blame the FIA.

But likewise Michelin turned down the FIA's 3 propositions, all of which were pretty sensible ;)

Either way, you cannot have a governing body held to ransom because a tyre manfacturer (despite repeated warnings) cannot produce a tyre which is safe and conforms to the regulations.

But what's really astounding is how Michelin got it so wrong, 10 laps... compared to Bridgestones 100 laps. I've been reading comments on some of the F1 sites that Michelin weren't even sure that their 'Barcelona' spec tyres would be up to the job either, meaning that had the FIA allowed them to break 4 regulations by allowing them to change their tyre spec, it's possible that the situation could have been even more dangerous because of the unknown qualities and performance of those tyres.

Funnily enough... I don't remember Bridgestone threatening the FIA when they were having issues earlier in the season.

I don't think the team managers really should be held to much blame

Absolutely... you can't blame the teams for not wanting to endanger their drivers lives. As soon as Michelin released their statement... that was pretty much the final nail in the coffin, especially in a country such as the U.S.

Interestingly Schumacher made a comment in the post race press conference that one of the other drivers said that a chicane would have made no difference and that they would have had the same problems anyway.

[mad jew]

Huh. What are you smoking? They placed fifth with race tires and decent fuel, while Trulli for example had almost no fuel in his car and all Michelins drove with qualification tires... how is that not a great job?


Before the tyre fiasco, the good money was on McLaren and Renault. Hell, even Toyota showed a bit of promise. Ferrari wasn't all that competitive, certainly not like they were in the dominating races of yesteryear. They benefited hugely from this Michelin screw up, no doubt. They were not the best team on the day though, in my opinion. :)

For the record, never smoked anything, an I'll keep it that way. :p

[byla]

I am glad my alarm clock did not go off at 3:30 am like i programmed it to.

Arrogance is expected they are french after all, sorry for pigeon holing a culture but hey it is true :rolleyes:

Another dark day in the saga of formula one.

I respect everybody's decision in this case, especially the likes of mclaren, renault and williams who knew what they were going to lose, but saety is paramount for all concerned. Ferrari are playing hardball, good for them they had not won a race till now, and this is just like them but within the rules.

Oh well, i wonder how many fans will turn up to next years race not many i suspect

Makes me glad there will be a control tyre in 2008, hopefully bridgestone



Well, at least French were not killing natives 30 years ago like pigeons.

I just f*ckin hate stereotypes. Have you perhaps ever been in france, or for that matter, out of Australia?

[mad jew]

Well, at least French were not killing natives 30 years ago like pigeons.


We don't have any native-killing pigeons down here anymore. We shot them all. :D

[pinks]

Interesting article on BBC news (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4110170.stm) website.

[iGav]

Before the tyre fiasco, the good money was on McLaren and Renault. Hell, even Toyota showed a bit of promise. Ferrari wasn't all that competitive, certainly not like they were in the dominating races of yesteryear. They benefited hugely from this Michelin screw up, no doubt. They were not the best team on the day though, in my opinion. :)

It's hard to gauge who was going to be the strongest when we consider that 7 teams did their qualifying on tyres that would only last 10 or so laps, so qualifying itself was a farce. For the record though, Ferrari were looking the strongest in race pace, their times in Friday practice were consistantly the quickest throughout their stints.

It's all academic though, the pace of the Michelin teams were distorted by the fact that their tyres only had a very limited life... potentially giving them a massive performance advantage.

One things for sure though, Ferrari have benefitted massively from it, and it really does catapult them back into contention for the Championships.

[Diatribe]

Before the tyre fiasco, the good money was on McLaren and Renault. Hell, even Toyota showed a bit of promise. Ferrari wasn't all that competitive, certainly not like they were in the dominating races of yesteryear. They benefited hugely from this Michelin screw up, no doubt. They were not the best team on the day though, in my opinion. :)

For the record, never smoked anything, an I'll keep it that way. :p

Hehe, good for you, welcome to the club :D I guess we have a different opinion on that. I think the Michelin teams would have never been so good with a tire that would've lasted the race. I think Ferrari has made some nice progress over the last weeks. Oh well, I guess we'll see in Magny-Cours.

[mad jew]

I hope you're right Diatribe. It'd be nice to see the Reds truly competitive again.

[anonymous161]

One of Michelin's suggestions that no one is talking about is for the teams to inflate the tires to a higher pressure, but the teams didn't want to do that because they would have to run more wing to compensate for their lack of tire grip.
We don't know how much fuel the Renault's were carrying, but we know that Trulli had only 3+ laps of fuel, because Toyota said so. My guess is that Kimi was empty too. The Ferrari's were obviously brim full with gas and in qualifying they looked it. It's all academic anyway, because the six bridgestone cars lapped the field oh, about 73 times :)
Ferrari have been off the pace most of the season and I doubt they will dominate any race this season, but they had great pace today.
The easiest thing for Ferrari to do would be to drive into the garage with the other teams, instead they drove around an empty track with fans booing and throwing bottles at them, giving those that stayed at least something to watch. So honestly, yes, I think they did an excellent job.

[iGav]

FIA Statement hot off the press. (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/200605-01.html)

[craigdawg]

It's amazing how auto racing has conspired to kill my interest in it.
I'm not sure what's in worse shape in the US:

1. The heavyweight division of boxing
2. Horse racing
3. Open wheel racing

Hint: I think the last movie made about open wheel racing was Sly Stallone's Driven (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1107198-driven/). :)

Put the race in Vegas and the fans will come back.

[Diatribe]

FIA Statement hot off the press. (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/200605-01.html)

Ooh, that makes the Michelin teams and Michelin themselves look really really bad. I hope there are more repercussions for this.

[aloofman]

I'm not sure what's in worse shape in the US:

1. The heavyweight division of boxing
2. Horse racing
3. Open wheel racing

Hint: I think the last movie made about open wheel racing was Sly Stallone's Driven (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1107198-driven/). :)

Put the race in Vegas and the fans will come back.

Well, I could care less about horse racing. Heavyweight boxing has always had kind of an element of farce to it though. Boxing fans kind of set common sense aside to enjoy themselves. But twenty years ago, the Indy 500 mattered. Even more recently than that, I remember watching an exhilirating Indy where Unser, Jr., won by a fraction of a second. Today it's hard to keep track of who the drivers are. They needed a female driver to generate any interest this year. If she had placed fourth in the 1979 Indy 500, it would have been absolutely huge.

I didn't watch Sunday's race, but I've been hearing conflicting reports about how many spectators were there. Some said 200,000, but others said it was "barely" 100,000. For a track that holds over 300,000, that doesn't look very good. They should cancel next year's U.S. Grand Prix, if only to avoid the embarrassment of a race attended by fewer people than an NBA basketball game.

And that Sly movie was on local TV here the other day. I came back into the room after a phone call and saw Stallone pushing Burt Reynolds in a wheelchair. Good God.

[jimsmac]

FIA Statement hot off the press. (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/200605-01.html)

Superb! The pdf copy of the letter referred to has the Cell / Mobile number of the Michelin Director involved.

Maybe fans who paid to see it can call him direct for a refund. :)

[dobbin]

FIA Statement hot off the press. (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/200605-01.html)

Do you think the Michelin director bloke minded that the FIA published his mobile phone number in that letter?

Mind you, I guess thats the least of his worries today.

Anyone want to try ringing it to tell him he spoilt the GP yesterday?

[Savage Henry]

FIA Statement hot off the press. (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/200605-01.html)
Man .... that sings a very bitter, but clear, song.

I actually managed to catch the closing 20 laps on telly, and continued to watch out of novelty. It was like saying behind to watch the last marathon runner to cross the line.

[iGav]

Looks like the FIA are really wanting to hand a smack down to not only Michelin but also the 7 teams. :eek:

Rinky dink link (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/200605-02.html)

[Don't panic]

Looks like the FIA are really wanting to hand a smack down to not only Michelin but also the 7 teams. :eek:

Rinky dink link (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/200605-02.html)
I think the teams deserve it, but at this point it would just exacerbate the situation, so I don't think anything more will happen

[LethalWolfe]

For what Tony George has done to open wheel racing in the states I really can't feel bad for this happening, although I do hope every ticket holder gets a refund.

Also I can't believe some of the fans behaviour... what kind of simpleton throws bottles and beer cans at and into the paths of a racing car? :rolleyes: :mad: there's no excuse. Wankers.

I'm sorry, but I just can't take any comments on proper spectator civility from a Brit seriously. ;)


Lethal

[mad jew]

I'm sorry, but I just can't take any comments on proper spectator civility from a Brit seriously.


We probably shouldn't generalise about an entire nation when we're only looking at a select few who attend these races/events. ;)

[Cooknn]

Just jumping into this thread I have to say I too was embarassed for F1 Sunday. Michelin was at fault, but what about the team managers who should have made sure they had that second set of tires?

I was at the Indy 500 a few weeks ago. It was a blast. I feel sorry for all those fans who dropped a week's vacation pay + air fare + car rental + hotel + strip clubs (oops!) and then got screwed out of the US Grand Prix :( Open wheel racing in the US just took another punch in the gut. People are in disbelief that this could even happen. You know what could save it? Sorry, it's not F1. What we need is for Danica (http://www.danicaracing.com/images/photos/danica-sparco.jpg) to win a race in the IRL :p

Bernie voiced his opinion (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3298669/) about women in racing, though."You know,” he said to live television cameras, “I've got one of those wonderful ideas — women should be dressed in white like all the other domestic appliances." That isn’t funny, it’s despicable.What an idiot :mad:

[EDIT]Although I quoted the writer from MSNBC, I don't agree with his comments regarding Europeans. He's as much of a jerk as Bernie IMHO.

[barneygumble]

Well, at least French were not killing natives 30 years ago like pigeons.

I just f*ckin hate stereotypes. Have you perhaps ever been in france, or for that matter, out of Australia?

I take it slovenians do not understand sarcasm :D , And in the immortal words of britney spears "Ooops i did it again"

and in all honesty its been at least 15 yrs since we stopped killing the natives, oh wait we slaughter thousands of kangaroos each year, they are delicious ;)

[iGav]

I think the teams deserve it, but at this point it would just exacerbate the situation, so I don't think anything more will happen

After reading up on it some more, it does seem like the Michelin teams were responsible for a major part in the boycott, not just Michelin themselves. Infact Mr Dupasquier of Michelin stated that they never asked for a chicane, just that they had to run with reduced speed through corner 13, it was the Michelin teams that demanded a chicane.

It'll be interesting to see what happens next Wednesday, Michelin and their teams surely cannot go unpunished for bringing the sport into disrepute in such a spectacular way.

I very much doubt that Michelin will be thrown out of this season, but wouldn't be at all surprised if they are for next season.

As for the teams, it's conceiveable that BAR-Honda might be kicked out, as they are already on a suspended sentence, but that the other teams might suffer a similar fate of being deducted of all of their championship points so far, like how BAR-Honda were earlier in the season.

We probably shouldn't generalise about an entire nation when we're only looking at a select few who attend these races/events.

Considering we're a footballing nation, we'd be screwed if that was the way. :p

I still can't believe what some of the fans at the U.S. GP did... throwing bottle and beer cans at the teams who were actually doing what they were there to do. Race. :rolleyes:

Simpletons... actually, probably inbred ones at that. :p

[anonymous161]

I think the USGP debacle constitutes enough of a safety concern for Max to institute a single manufacturer/control tire for next season, which he has wanted to do for a long time. I would imagine Bridgestone will get the contract.
I'm beginning to wonder if the GPWC can get up and going by next year, because it seems that is what the rebel teams want. Michelin would probably be willing to supply tires since they won't be doing that for F1 next year.
Very sad.

[aloofman]

Just jumping into this thread I have to say I too was embarassed for F1 Sunday. Michelin was at fault, but what about the team managers who should have made sure they had that second set of tires?

I was at the Indy 500 a few weeks ago. It was a blast. I feel sorry for all those fans who dropped a week's vacation pay + air fare + car rental + hotel + strip clubs (oops!) and then got screwed out of the US Grand Prix :( Open wheel racing in the US just took another punch in the gut. People are in disbelief that this could even happen. You know what could save it? Sorry, it's not F1. What we need is for Danica (http://www.danicaracing.com/images/photos/danica-sparco.jpg) to win a race in the IRL :p

Bernie voiced his opinion (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3298669/) about women in racing, though.What an idiot :mad:

[EDIT]Although I quoted the writer from MSNBC, I don't agree with his comments regarding Europeans. He's as much of a jerk as Bernie IMHO.

Danica wouldn't save it either. The unfortunate truth is that she qualified for Indy in an IRL that is a shadow of what CART used to be. CART and IRL are basically minor circuits at this point. It would be like saying that a female pitcher could revitalize minor league baseball. I'm not saying she can't compete in IRL, just that IRL doesn't have much going for it.

Let's put it this way: as talented as she seems to be, I have no reason to believe that she could qualify for a Nextel Cup NASCAR race.

[Cooknn]

Danica wouldn't save it either. The unfortunate truth is that she qualified for Indy in an IRL that is a shadow of what CART used to be. CART and IRL are basically minor circuits at this point. It would be like saying that a female pitcher could revitalize minor league baseball. I'm not saying she can't compete in IRL, just that IRL doesn't have much going for it.

Let's put it this way: as talented as she seems to be, I have no reason to believe that she could qualify for a Nextel Cup NASCAR race.OT: The IRL is doing road courses this year and the season is looking more and more like Nascar with regards to the track selection. The racing is side by side on the ovals and is quite exciting. The road courses are as fun to watch as any other open wheel series IMHO.

Cart isn't looking too good though... As far as Danica is concerned, I and 300,000 were on their feet as we watched her lead the Indy 500 with like 6 laps to go. TV ratings went through the roof. America will come back to open wheel if she does well this year. Couple that with the fact that Dale Jr. and Jeff Gordon might not even make the Nascar "Chase for the Cup" and the IRL will be looking pretty good. As far as a female in Nascar, Sara Fisher was spotting for Richard Childress that weekend in the Busch race. She might just get a shot at Nextel Cup.

I'm sure you watched when Juan Montoya and Jeff Gordon swapped cars at Indy for some laps. As good as Gordon did in Montoya's F1 car, how much better would Danica have done? So much of it is the ride...

[iGav]

Pretty damning...

* “Failed to ensure that you had a supply of suitable tyres for the race."

* "Wrongfully refused to allow your cars to start the race."

* "Wrongfully refused to allow your cars to race subject to a speed restriction at one corner, which was safe for such tyres as you had available."

* "Combined with other teams to make a demonstration damaging to the image of Formula 1 by pulling into the pits immediately before the start of the race."

* "Failed to notify the stewards of your intention not to race.”

Rinky dink link (http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1962994930__21_06_2005_wmsc_letters.pdf)

[brap]

* "Wrongfully refused to allow your cars to race subject to a speed restriction at one corner, which was safe for such tyres as you had available."They're living in la-la land.

Smells of a frantic blame-shifting exercise -- onto anybody that's not the FIA. There was a chain of events, and each party deserves to share blame. Indeed, perhaps they could take some responsibility for allowing the tyre war to go ahead in the first place; it didn't take a genius to work out it was getting a little out of hand.

[takao]

They're living in la-la land.

Smells of a frantic blame-shifting exercise -- onto anybody that's not the FIA.

yeah looks like everybody is doing that at the moment .... heck nearly everybody besides the pit crews,drivers and the fans are to blame

[mac-er]

I still can't believe what some of the fans at the U.S. GP did... throwing bottle and beer cans at the teams who were actually doing what they were there to do. Race. :rolleyes:

Simpletons... actually, probably inbred ones at that. :p

Actually, Americans that watch F1 and CART in the U.S. tend to be the most intelligent, "snobs" of racing compared to NASCAR fans.

[mad jew]

Actually, Americans that watch F1 and CART in the U.S. tend to be the most intelligent, "snobs" of racing compared to NASCAR fans.


Everything is relative. ;)

[evoluzione]

Actually, Americans that watch F1 and CART in the U.S. tend to be the most intelligent, "snobs" of racing compared to NASCAR fans.


whilst i can't disagree with you there, i can say that looking at the TV pictures of the race, they looked more like inquisitive nascar fans than F1 fans.

[Cooknn]

whilst i can't disagree with you there, i can say that looking at the TV pictures of the race, they looked more like inquisitive nascar fans than F1 fans.The city of Indianapolis is all about open wheel racing. Think about it. Yeah, maybe a lot of the fans came in from other places, but then I would suspect they were pretty in to F1. An expensive trip if you're just inquisitive :cool:

[takao]

The city of Indianapolis is all about open wheel racing. Think about it. Yeah, maybe a lot of the fans came in from other places, but then I would suspect they were pretty in to F1. An expensive trip if you're just inquisitive :cool:

actually ecclestone (or somebody else) complained about lacking promotion done prior to the US GP ... weren't very happy with that..so i suspect that and the race scandal will lead to no US GP anytime soon

[aloofman]

actually ecclestone (or somebody else) complained about lacking promotion done prior to the US GP ... weren't very happy with that..so i suspect that and the race scandal will lead to no US GP anytime soon

That could be, but I'm not sure what other marketing would have helped. American fans of open-wheel racing have become more rare. The people who really cared about it already knew when and where the U.S. Grand Prix was held. Among those fans, there's genuine excitement about an F1 race being held at Indy. When should they have been promoting it? During NASCAR races? I knew the race was on Sunday, but I never knew what channel it was broadcast on, or even if it was. As a casual racing fan, I would seem to be the sort of person that Ecclestone is trying to attract, yet I wasn't motivated enough to watch.

[anonymous161]

I would seem to be the sort of person that Ecclestone is trying to attract, yet I wasn't motivated enough to watch.

What a appropriate name, aloofman :)

[LethalWolfe]

The city of Indianapolis is all about open wheel racing.

That just got me thinking about when Tony George announced that there would be a NASCAR race at the IMS. Boy, there were a lot people pissed off at first that "NASCRAP" was gonna run on the sacred brickyard. Obviously people have settled down, but boy did it ruffle a lot of feathers when it was first announced.


Lethal

[Cooknn]

OMG! Bernie is a freaking lunatic (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?series=irl&id=2092194) :eek:

[edit] something is definitely wrong with the timeline in that article though...