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MrAndy1369
Mar 1, 2012, 07:50 AM
Wow. Some thoughts... I'm actually a new Apple user - quite a recent convert in December. I've seen all the complaints about Apple turning OSX into iOS, and agreed with some of the complaints. I was actually dreading seeing what ML was all about, only seeing iOS features being brought over, without any true innovation to the OS.

Then I saw the pictures (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-consumer-preview-screenshot-extravaganza) of the Windows 8 Consumer Review...and WOW. All I can say is, I'm so grateful I switched over to Apple. OSX may be becoming a bit iOS-like, especially with ML, but seeing the mess Windows 8 is, I'm incredibly looking forward to ML now. Yes, Apple is porting iOS features over to OSX, and there may be an endgame of full unification between the two OSes, but Apple is doing a much better job than Microsoft. At least we still get full control through System Preferences, Terminal, Single User Mode, and the Finder in ML. iOS apps (such as Reminders, iMessages) may not exactly conform to the UI guidelines for OSX, but they blend in reasonably well compared to the Metro and all the ugly, overly colorful apps. Orange? Lime green? Gag me. Explorer may still give the user control in W8, but it's still just a jumbled mess and IMHO looks ugly and inconsisent. Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Other than iOS apps sticking out just a teeny bit in ML, the overall look and feel of OSX is still beautiful, simple, and clean.

All this, coming from a formerly loyal Windows user. I used to live and breathe Microsoft/Windows. I still love Windows 7. But, Windows 8...forget it. Others may love it, embrace it, but I'm going to stick with a slightly iOSized ML desktop, thankyouverymuch.

We're lucky. My two cents.



Doombringer
Mar 1, 2012, 08:08 AM
You can disable the Metro interface in 8, and go back to a very 7-esque desktop. But I agree, the Win OS is becoming more and more 'streamlined' -- I don't think you can get a Start button back in 8, no matter what -- which, really, is something that started in Vista and has continued on through 7, plus feature creep from Office 2007/2010's ribbon. Clearly it is Microsoft's initiative and there's no getting around it.

I like OSX, and iOS, and I'm all for more unificiation, but I think Apple understands the aesthetics more, and will know there will remain a separation between desktop/laptop and mobile device UIs. iCloud and other backend improvements will do wonders to 'unify' the two OSes without necessarily changing their feel... and yes, getting your application/service names consistent across both platforms is also key. Contacts should be Contacts on the desktop and when mobile; it just makes sense.

Kilamite
Mar 1, 2012, 08:34 AM
Windows 8 is pretty awesome as a concept. But what a mess it is for a desktop/laptop. While you can disable Metro, it is clear that perhaps Windows 9 will no longer include the Windows Desktop.

Live tiles, and being able to display two apps at once is great for tablets, and something the iPad really needs to catch up on. The multitasking gestures and application switcher is nice too.

I think tablets and laptops will live together for a long time, rather than tablets replacing laptops. While tablets are becoming more powerful in what they can do, a laptop will always be preferred for doing real work. Tablet for consuming, laptop for producing.

Windows 8 seems to just splatter everything across all devices. Metro tiles and interactions aren't ideal for a laptop, even with a multitouch trackpad. I think Windows 8 should be tablet only, with a PC version that has many of the features but optimised for a keyboard and mouse. I've watched the demonstration videos where Microsoft has implemented "hot corners" etc, but the Metro interface is really for consuming, not producing.

It's not clear what direction Microsoft wants to go in. Apple is introducing iOS features to the Mac slowly, but they are keeping it as a desktop operating system rather than a new OS concept which makes producing and multitasking not so effective.

Bending Pixels
Mar 1, 2012, 08:37 AM
One has to wonder what Microsoft is thinking when the Windows 8 Metro interface is based on/looks almost exactly like the Windows Phone 7.5 interface....and we all know how successful Windows Phone has been for Microsoft.

Like MrAndy, I used to love Windows (even beta tested Win95). But given the hardware inconsistancies between manufacturers, and related driver issues (along with virus and hacking exposures with Windows), I have no regrets about switching to the Mac.

Microsoft seems to lack the ability to find out what their customers really want from them.

MonkeySee....
Mar 1, 2012, 08:41 AM
OSX = ease users into and IOS intergration

MS = BOOM. What the what!?

ct2k7
Mar 1, 2012, 09:13 AM
One has to wonder what Microsoft is thinking when the Windows 8 Metro interface is based on/looks almost exactly like the Windows Phone 7.5 interface....and we all know how successful Windows Phone has been for Microsoft.

Windows Phone 7.x is based on the Metro design language, and so is Windows 8. Not the other way round.

If you've used a Windows Phone device, you'll know that it (Metro) is actually better in some ways than iOS. The perceived failure is due to multiple issues, not forgetting the lack of applications available for the platform. In fact, my friend was having issues with battery life with his Windows Phone, and though he is an Apple fan, that was the only thing stopping him switching over completely to Windows Phone.

roadbloc
Mar 1, 2012, 09:45 AM
I don't like the iOS stuff in OS X and downgraded back to Snow Leopard when Lion was released. I doubt that I'll like Mountain Lion much, although I do think that it'll be like what Lion should have been like. I do however think iOS is great for tablets and phones.

Trying out Windows 8 today. I'll see if Microsoft have taken the right approach to making a tablet/PC hybrid OS.

MrAndy1369
Mar 1, 2012, 09:49 AM
Also, one thing I forgot to mention that I noticed on the demo videos (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-57388413-2/windows-8-keynote-demo-videos-now-online/) of Windows 8 - NONE of them showed a mouse pointer at all. Only touch. It's very clear the direction MS is going - making Windows 8 a tablet OS while abandoning the desktop (but leaving it there for this release).

On the other hand, OSX Mountain Lion's demo (http://www.apple.com/macosx/mountain-lion/) on Apple's website does show a mouse pointer in action in the demo video! iOS doesn't have a mouse pointer ;)

Blipp
Mar 1, 2012, 10:20 AM
I don't like the iOS stuff in OS X and downgraded back to Snow Leopard when Lion was released. I doubt that I'll like Mountain Lion much, although I do think that it'll be like what Lion should have been like. I do however think iOS is great for tablets and phones.

Trying out Windows 8 today. I'll see if Microsoft have taken the right approach to making a tablet/PC hybrid OS.

OS X is far from a tablet/PC hybrid OS. Which of the iOS inspired features were so disruptive for you that you switched back to Snow Leopard?

Apple is taking what works in iOS, optimizing their functionality for a desktop environment, and bringing them to OS X. They are not touch apps ported over to the desktop. I just don't see how this is a bad thing. This is a far cry from what MS is doing with Windows 8 where they are shoehorning a "desktop" into a tablet OS and delivering it on all platforms. No one bought Windows Phone 7 yet they decided to bring that UI to their entire product line. Smart.

DavoteK
Mar 1, 2012, 10:32 AM
Apple is taking what works in iOS, optimizing their functionality for a desktop environment, and bringing them to OS X. They are not touch apps ported over to the desktop. I just don't see how this is a bad thing.
Fully agree. Perhaps people are used to convoluted, complicated and less functional ways of things syncing between devices. Change is not good.

kirky29
Mar 1, 2012, 12:02 PM
OSX = ease users into and IOS intergration

MS = BOOM. What the what!?

Fully agree, my mother will not have a clue how to do several things now on Windows 8, she's just learnt the start menu! haha

(:

ayeying
Mar 1, 2012, 12:25 PM
Mountain Lion and Windows 8 are nothing alike right now. There was more in common with Windows 7 & Lion.

Mountain Lion has features of iOS but it's still primarily used as a desktop system. The notification center is a welcome change because what have we been using before? Growl to notify us but nothing to see a list of our past notifications that we've missed. Launchpad, it's still pretty similar to Lion right now. Messages, just combines iMessage from iOS with the desktop interface, something the Androids have already. However, even with those features listed, it's still a desktop OS.

Windows 8 is basically an extended version of Windows Phone. It's primary usage is the Metro UI as seen on Windows Phone. It took me 5 minutes to figure out where the original control panel is. Windows 8 seems to be moving users over to a more touch based interface, like iOS but still have a desktop retainability in the background. This is actually a good advantage for most consumers who don't care how their system is used, just as long as they can surf the net, write e-mails, listen to music and watch a few videos. However for a power user, it's a nightmare trying to find where everything is.

Sooner or later, OS X will be integrated in with iOS but I still believe that Apple would keep a desktop platform the primary choice of UI compared to Microsoft where they're pushing the Metro/Touch UI as primary.

thundersteele
Mar 1, 2012, 12:38 PM
Windows 8 looks interesting. Essentially they get rid of the desktop and the file system as integral parts of the user interaction, and move them to the background. I think this could work for the consumer market, and might help windows phone sales.

MS dared to be much more innovative than Apple here. Maybe it will end up being a disaster, like Vista, but it might also work. In comparison, Apple chose a safe path here... somehow not surprising, since Apple now can be considered as market leader for mobile OS, although MS of course is still huge on laptops...

maflynn
Mar 1, 2012, 12:42 PM
If you've used a Windows Phone device, you'll know that it (Metro) is actually better in some ways than iOS.
Just because it may be better then iOS as a mobile OS, doesn't translate into it being a better desktop OS.

I played with the developer preview, and I have the consumer preview ready to install once I get home from work. I have some serious concerns about the Metro UI, but I'll wait to see how this shakes out.

scottsjack
Mar 1, 2012, 01:00 PM
I really like using Windows 7. On my MP Photoshop CS5, Excel and Word operate faster and better than on Lion. Then there is Quicken which just can't seem to make it to Mac. W7 strikes me as the better OS but of course it's lacking in the wealth of interconnected, fantastic apps that are available on Mac.

Having used Windows 8 Developers Preview for awhile I installed the Consumer Preview last night on my late 2009 mini 2.6C2D. The installation from the ISO image burned to a DVD was flawless. I haven't even installed the bootcamp drivers yet.

It looks like Microsoft, trying to be all Apple-like and "innovative", has really screwed up Windows 8. Metro looks like crap on a 24in display. The colors are horrible, the icons are really ugly.

Without the traditional Start menu the desktop is not so easy to use. I had to keep going back and forth between desktop and Metro just to perform formerly simple tasks. If that's the best that Microsoft can do I'll take Lion over Windows 8 in a heartbeat.

roadbloc
Mar 1, 2012, 05:19 PM
OS X is far from a tablet/PC hybrid OS. Which of the iOS inspired features were so disruptive for you that you switched back to Snow Leopard?

Lack of decent spaces/expose, useless features such as launchpad and gestures (I know I don't have to use them but a lot of emphasis is put on them), autosave (can't stand it), and the fact that it was buggy and seemed inconsistent. Mountain Lion seems to introduce a lot of consistency again, but I still don't like it. Hate on me all you want, I don't like it.

Brad9893
Mar 1, 2012, 05:29 PM
Lack of decent spaces/expose, useless features such as launchpad and gestures (I know I don't have to use them but a lot of emphasis is put on them), autosave (can't stand it), and the fact that it was buggy and seemed inconsistent. Mountain Lion seems to introduce a lot of consistency again, but I still don't like it. Hate on me all you want, I don't like it.

How are gestures a useless part of Lion? I think they are an integral part of the OS. The gestures are one of the best parts IMO.

roadbloc
Mar 1, 2012, 05:47 PM
How are gestures a useless part of Lion? I think they are an integral part of the OS. The gestures are one of the best parts IMO.
As I said. I don't like it. Try and justify it to me all you want, I don't like it. You obviously do and I'm pleased for you that you are happy with the way OS X is going. I don't like it and I'm not pleased with the way OS X is going, no matter how much you downvote my posts or try and make my opinions out to be flawed.

That is why I'm hoping Windows 8 will be good.

Brad9893
Mar 1, 2012, 05:57 PM
As I said. I don't like it. Try and justify it to me all you want, I don't like it. You obviously do and I'm pleased for you that you are happy with the way OS X is going. I don't like it and I'm not pleased with the way OS X is going, no matter how much you downvote my posts or try and make my opinions out to be flawed.

That is why I'm hoping Windows 8 will be good.

I was asking why you don't like it; I obviously realize that you don't. I never said that I was pleased with the way OS X is going. Pretty much all of the features being put into it these days are for iOS integration. As someone who has no iOS devices, I don't see much of anything in it for me. However, I don't see how multitouch gestures say anything.

If you think Lion is bad, then I can't see you liking Windows 8. I think the Metro UI is awful and the tablet integration is worse than with Apple.

Oh, and I am not trying to make out your opinions to be flawed. Nor did I downvote your post. I think the whole rating system is silly. I just wanted to know why you don't like it. Swiping between spaces, the two finger pinch, move windows with three fingers, etc. I am honestly just trying to see what you dislike about these things. That's it.

thejadedmonkey
Mar 1, 2012, 05:58 PM
Microsoft seems to lack the ability to find out what their customers really want from them.

To be fair, if Henry Ford had listened to his customers we'd all be driving horses.

Personally, I really like Windows 8. The whole split screen paradigm is amazing.

roadbloc
Mar 1, 2012, 06:11 PM
I just wanted to know why you don't like it. Swiping between spaces, the two finger pinch, move windows with three fingers, etc. I am honestly just trying to see what you dislike about these things. That's it.

I'm more of a keyboard shortcuts sorta guy. Podgy fingers result in gestures failing or acting wrongly. Also activating them during what I'd call normal trackpad usage.

rocknblogger
Mar 1, 2012, 06:16 PM
I installed Win 8 in Parallels and I can't get it to register mouse clicks. The curser moves around and when it first boots, for a split second I can see a tile highlight and then lose focus.

Keyboard works and with the trackpad I can zoom in and out but no clicks.

I've searched Google but no help yet. If any of you who installed it have any suggestions I'm all ears.

Brad9893
Mar 1, 2012, 06:34 PM
I'm more of a keyboard shortcuts sorta guy. Podgy fingers result in gestures failing or acting wrongly. Also activating them during what I'd call normal trackpad usage.

At least you can turn the gestures off if you really don't like them. It's not like Launchpad which you can't turn off. You don't have to use it either, but everytime you download a MAS app it pops up which can get annoying.

ayeying
Mar 1, 2012, 07:02 PM
I installed Win 8 in Parallels and I can't get it to register mouse clicks. The curser moves around and when it first boots, for a split second I can see a tile highlight and then lose focus.

Keyboard works and with the trackpad I can zoom in and out but no clicks.

I've searched Google but no help yet. If any of you who installed it have any suggestions I'm all ears.

It's an issue with Parallels' Tools. You have to wait until they update the Parallels' Tools before it'll work properly.

Krazy Bill
Mar 1, 2012, 07:33 PM
Those of you using Win8 on a mac... do any of the trackpad gestures work? Does the trackpad "swiping" work in Metro or do you need to grab the scrollbar?

rocknblogger
Mar 1, 2012, 08:14 PM
It's an issue with Parallels' Tools. You have to wait until they update the Parallels' Tools before it'll work properly.

Thank you I appreciate the heads up. Do you have a link or anything I can read to stay on top of it?

ayeying
Mar 2, 2012, 12:09 AM
Thank you I appreciate the heads up. Do you have a link or anything I can read to stay on top of it?

check this link

http://forum.parallels.com/showthread.php?t=257731

scottsjack
Mar 2, 2012, 01:46 PM
After Wednesday night's Windows 8 install on a mini 2.6GHz I put it on a late 2008 MBP 15 2.4GHz. This time, instead of a clean install, it upgraded Windows 7. That took a lot longer than the clean install but except for not making some Metro/start page icons for pre-existing Photoshop and Office 2010 apps it went OK.

I haven't had a chance to really test drive it yet but Metro looks a lot better on a laptop than on a 24in monitor. It might even be useful.

That said Mac laptops do not make very good Windows computers due to the lack of support for the dual GPUs and the keyboard that doesn't include two Command keys and other Windows specific keys.

All in all the MBP is much nicer to use on Lion. OS X is looking pretty good at this point and Mountain Lion appears to be an improvement over Lion.

kirky29
Mar 2, 2012, 03:06 PM
It's an issue with Parallels' Tools. You have to wait until they update the Parallels' Tools before it'll work properly.

Same for me, best to get another mouse, plug that in and under devices (on parallels) select the mouse and it'll work :)

Turning off SmartMouse also gets it to work, but I found with my MagicMouse it was just jumping like crazy!

Sometimes the mouse has been disappearing too, if that happens press CTRL+DEL under Win8 and then escape back to the desktop/start screen and it'll work again :)

Tmelon
Mar 2, 2012, 11:48 PM
I'm dual booting ML and W8 and I have to say that Windows 8 is probably the least user friendly OS that I've ever used. Here are my observations.


Start menu is completely removed. Simple things like shutting down your computer just got a lot harder.
Metro UI seems to be slapped on top of Windows 7. Feels like two separate operating systems.
Gestures are awful. Things involve clicking and dragging from random places on the screen to get to options and menus and it's extremely unintuitive. I've used PCs for years before getting a Mac and the learning curve for Windows 8 is tremendous. New PC users will be confused as hell trying to get used to this.
(In my opinion) Metro just sucks. Things are forced to be full screen, there's no menus and it's just counter productive. Serious hinderance of multitasking.
Speaking of Multitasking, there's no way to close opened Metro apps.
There's no connection between Metro apps and normal apps. Bookmarks and passwords on Metro IE are separate from normal IE for example. Metro IE also lacks plugins and flash. No reason to use it over normal IE.
Native apps have not been updated. You'd expect Windows Media Center and apps like that to get a metro makeover, but they're still no different from Windows 7.
Boots up quickly and runs applications very fast. This is the strongest point of the OS.
Very touch friendly, but not good for keyboard/mouse. No multitouch gestures on trackpads
App store is pretty populated, but Metro apps are just no good with keyboard and mouse.


I'm not a Windows hater, but I honestly can't stand Windows 8. It just feels like a mess. I could never picture any business taking this whole metro thing seriously. I'd give it a 2/10, but just because it's fast.

LachlanH
Mar 3, 2012, 12:33 AM
Long time Windows/PC fan here. Last year I needed a new laptop for work, and more and more people at work were using Mac's which I was expected to support so to be better at my job I decided to get a Macbook Pro, I figured if I used one every day at work I would get to know the OS much better and be able to support others more effectively.

The MBP is the best computer I have ever owned, Laptop or Desktop. And it's down to OSX and apples integration of the hardware into the OS. (I'm talking about gestures and all the little touches)

I have used windows 3.11, 95, 98, ME, 2000, XP, Vista and am now running windows 7 on my home desktop and I can honestly say, if Windows 8 actually ends up looking as fugly as it does in those screenshots, this desktop will be my last PC for some time.

Honestly WTF.....it looks HORRIBLE. Steve Jobbs, despite what you may or may not think about him, was right about one thing. Microsoft (and others) Just Don't Get It.

Microsoft needs to hit a home run with Windows 8. They really do. I believe much of the Mac's recent popularity in the last 4-5 years has been due to the complete train wreck that was Vista. 7 is a MUCH better OS, but it came out too late to stop many users looking elsewhere for a computer that was actually an enjoyable experience to use.

If Windows 8 sucks, I fear Microsoft may be severely damaged by this, and the market share of OSX vs Windows could accelerate rapidly towards Mac dominance.

Obviously OSX has a LOOOONG way to go if it ever were to exceed Windows in market share, however another crap OS from Microsoft at a time when Apple seems to be on their game more than they ever have been could spell disaster for MS.



Haven't used ML yet, but I really liked 10.6, I find 10.7 to be excellent and the new features of 10.8 I am excited for.

Having said all this, I have used a Windows Phone running 7.5 and found it to be quite a nice experience. However taking that UI and making it your desktop OS....ew. Pull it together MS.

limo79
Mar 3, 2012, 04:43 AM
Keep in mind that Steve Jobs started a discussion about a "post PC" era and we have also tablet and notebook tablet like Lenovo X220T (which is a full performance notebook, but with touchscreen) users in this world ;-)

If we take a look in the past - Apple was perceived as a revolutionary corporation with very courageus ideas. But the last OS X changes are perceived more like evolution than revolution. Transition from OS X to iOS is more smooth and less dramatic, but it still exists... and most professional Mac users do not like it. They do not like it in the same way when Apple decided to address Mac computers mainly to the Facebook and iTunes/AppStore generation (i.e. glossy displays instead of matte displays etc.).

During last years Microsoft was perceived as lazy and cowardly corporation that do not change anything and stay in one point. Now they change it... and this is also bad ;-)

Currently Microsoft follow the philosophy like Apple in the past - making huge jump in vision of product. They even go further because the base idea was to make one platform for x86 and ARM machines. Apple still keep OS X and iOS as separate environments, but I am sure that they will follow the same path like Microsoft in close future. I believe that business expects such consolidation and unification - less problems exchanging data/informations.

As I know we still include Desktop mode which is very similar to Windows 7, so there is an option.

OS interface is just one factor. We can not judge OS base just on this. Take a look on this before you start Windows 8 criticizm:

http://www.itworld.com/windows/254380/hands-windows-8-cp-battery-life-test

http://www.itworld.com/sites/default/files/image004.png

"Microsoft has done its homework. Idle performance of Windows 8 seems to best that of Windows 7 SP1 in every case. This is especially true on the MacBook Air: Here, idle battery life increased by 51 minutes. Even under the PCMark 7 workload, it managed to squeeze 24 minutes of additional battery life out of the machine."

50 minutes and 24 minutes on the latest MBA is a huge boost in mobile world.

imacken
Mar 3, 2012, 05:08 AM
Speaking of Multitasking, there's no way to close opened Metro apps.

Simply not true. There are several ways of closing Metro apps. The simplest way is to right-click on their Windows in the left hand list and click on 'close'! There are other ways, like dragging the icon to the bottom of the screen, but you don't have to close apps like you used to as the memory management works in a very different way in W8, like iOS and OS X.

Tmelon
Mar 3, 2012, 09:02 AM
Simply not true. There are several ways of closing Metro apps. The simplest way is to right-click on their Windows in the left hand list and click on 'close'! There are other ways, like dragging the icon to the bottom of the screen, but you don't have to close apps like you used to as the memory management works in a very different way in W8, like iOS and OS X.

Oh thank you. I'm not sure how I missed that.

deconstruct60
Mar 3, 2012, 10:25 AM
Also, one thing I forgot to mention that I noticed on the demo videos (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-57388413-2/windows-8-keynote-demo-videos-now-online/) of Windows 8 - NONE of them showed a mouse pointer at all.

In the limited amount of time for the keynote they are going to talk about what is "New" not what is "Old". It doesn't make sense. 10 Mins of "here look, you can do the same things you could before.... please pay us more money". Yeah right.

There are buckets of features Microsoft didn't fit into the keynote coverage. Including the video you missed on the page the article referenced above refers to.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/presskits/windows/videogallery2.aspx

Namely the
"Using a Mouse and Keyboard with Windows 8 " video.

Probably also missed that Microsoft has a keyboard/Mouse video at there Window 8 Getting started website....

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/get-started


There are others though.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/1/2835586/windows-8-keyboard-shortcuts-video

http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows8/windows-8-consumer-preview-windows-key-keyboard-shortcuts-142358


http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2012/02/getting-started-with-the-windows-8-consumer-preview.ars

"... Because Windows 8 is intended as unified system for both PC and tablet, it works as well with a keyboard and mouse as it does with touch. ..." http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13970_7-57386760-78/windows-8-beta-hands-on-with-microsofts-tablet-friendly-os/#ixzz1o4SRJy5G






Only touch. It's very clear the direction MS is going - making Windows 8 a tablet OS while abandoning the desktop (but leaving it there for this release).

No it is more clear that much of the ruckus with these introductions are folks hand waving about things they haven't really studied in any significant detail.

tkermit
Mar 3, 2012, 10:47 AM
Apple still keep OS X and iOS as separate environments, but I am sure that they will follow the same path like Microsoft in close future. I believe that business expects such consolidation and unification

When has Apple ever cared about that? And thank God they don't. Metro makes it painfully obvious that different input methods demand different UIs.

deconstruct60
Mar 3, 2012, 11:03 AM
I'm dual booting ML and W8 and I have to say that Windows 8 is probably the least user friendly OS that I've ever used. Here are my observations.


Perhaps need to look a bit harder.


Start menu is completely removed. Simple things like shutting down your computer just got a lot harder.


Start screen ===> Press "Windows" key.

Shutdown/hibernate options ===> Ctr/Alt/Delete

Perhaps you classify those as hard, but they are relatively easy to do.

Yeah "knowing" you have to put the mouse into the "start screen" corner is something to learn, but it isn't hard. It is just new.




Metro UI seems to be slapped on top of Windows 7. Feels like two separate operating systems.


LOL. Go to your Mac OS X dock and press the "dashboard" icon. ( or just mouse-wheel click. )

Yeah one is "non-overalpping windows" and the other is the more classic mode but different operating system. Go pop open a book on Operating Systems.


Gestures are awful. Things involve clicking and dragging from random places on the screen to get to options and menus and it's extremely unintuitive.


While the charms hot corners are new the "start" hot corner is the same corner

Random is a gross characterization. New perhaps. Random .... not any more random that tapping the home key twice. Or swiping left to get to volume/music controls or down for notifications.

Anyone who sits down and moves the mouse around to the sides, corners, right clicks in some areas , etc. will be exposed to and will act in predictable ways.

Does all the facets of the interface work without instruction? No. But neither does OS X or iOS.


I've used PCs for years before getting a Mac and the learning curve for Windows 8 is tremendous.

If open to learning, not really. The disconnect is having a high expectation that things are exactly the same as Windows NT or 2000.



New PC users will be confused as hell trying to get used to this.


Probably because more PC (and Mac ) instruction is oriented around giving people a fixed set of incantations to invoke. "Do X and Y will happen" "Do Z " "Click Y". There is almost no instruction on problem solving or how to explore a new interface. Almost all of it is oriented to mapping down into the some very limited set of concepts.



There's no connection between Metro apps and normal apps. Bookmarks and passwords on Metro IE are separate from normal IE for example. Metro IE also lacks plugins and flash. No reason to use it over normal IE.


Not sure what the problem is with having two different web browsers on the computer. I have Safari , Firefox , and Chrome installed. Each have different strengths and weakness. Same is going to be true of the Metro vs. classic IE . It is like having just one hammer in the toolbox.

When fully baked I suspect that the Metro IE will probably auto-sync when logged into the Microsoft cloud.



Native apps have not been updated. You'd expect Windows Media Center and apps like that to get a metro makeover, but they're still no different from Windows 7.


Apps are not an operating system. The should have their own update cycle. Tightly coupling them to the OS release cycle is a fundamentally flawed concept. There is zero reason to force everything into Metro all at once. That some of the flawed sillyness that blew Vista up.



Very touch friendly, but not good for keyboard/mouse. No multitouch gestures on trackpads


Trackpads need to have multitouch sensors to encode multitouch gestures. That is a hardware integration thing not a generic public beta issue. When new machines are released with the production OS this will probably sort itself out better a drivers stabilize and vendors converge on a tractable subset of sensors.



I'm not a Windows hater, but I honestly can't stand Windows 8. It just feels like a mess. I could never picture any business taking this whole metro thing seriously. I'd give it a 2/10, but just because it's fast.

What is missing from much of this knee jerk reaction is that the start screen is customizable. I would suspect that most businesses to remove much of the "social network" tiles from the start screen and develop a custom screen that they deploy by default that has the core company apps much more prominent. Similarly install the internal "social" network tiles (internal wiki's, IT's dashboard/help desk, etc. )

Lots of companies develop internal "dashboards" for the employees. Metro is an opportunity to install at least a portion of that onto each start screen of every computer inside the business. Frankly, there is alot of Flash/proprietary IE5-IE6 web apps that can be sent to the trash can if replaced with much more sensible Metro (HTML5 scripted ) apps.

Again the core issue here is a lack of problem solving skills. "What can be done with this tool" as opposed to "What is the minimal amount of anything new I need to know".

Similar for non business. Don't like colors of start screen or tiles on screen ..... customize it to something different.


There are bigger problems for regimented business IT for the WOA devices not being as centrally manageable as the the x86 ones.

tkermit
Mar 3, 2012, 11:23 AM
Yeah one is "non-overalpping windows" and the other is the more classic mode but different operating system. Go pop open a book on Operating Systems.

If Apple combined iOS and OS X to be the same operating system (which, from a certain layer on, they of course already are), you'd get the same reaction from users. Imagine if Apple had OS X users boot into the iOS Springboard from where you'd be able to either start up iOS apps, or enter into a regular Desktop interface. Of course it would feel like using two different operating systems. Because a user's primary impression of what the OS is, depends almost entirely on the UI that is provided, not on the deeper layers of the operating system – even though they are very relevant to the experience of course.

limo79
Mar 3, 2012, 11:43 AM
I realize that Metro UI changes a lot and there is a lot of mixed feelings about it, but please do not judge OS this way, because there are many important factors that make OS good: power management (battery time and heat dissipation) also overall performance and responsiveness, boot /sleep /hibernation time. Let me give you an example:

You have OS A that has good interface, but gives you just 2 hours on battery and bottom enclosure of your MacBook is hot and has higher system requirements, good responsiveness and quite fast web browser.

You have OS B that has a new interface that you must explore and learn with 4 hours on battery and MacBook bottom enclosure cool and lower system requirements, significantly better responsiveness and much faster web browser.

In my opinion it is better firstly try to learn and explore OS B and maybe change some habits. If operation will be not succesfull I decide to switch to OS A, but not after few minutes or hours. It is the same like to feel a new car or to know a new person. It needs a time to catch all advantages and disadvantages. First experience is sometimes misleading - yeah this awful Nissan designed in Asia. It is ugly, design is horrible but after few years you are sure that this is a car you can rely on. Almost failure-free with no significant defects.

Give a credit to the new product and remember that OS X is also not so perfect. Users still notice many important issues with OS X Lion 10.7.3 related to memory leak/RAM consumption etc. Also wireless issues are real nightmare in almost every OS X release.

thundersteele
Mar 3, 2012, 12:52 PM
Start menu is completely removed. Simple things like shutting down your computer just got a lot harder.
Gestures are awful. Things involve clicking and dragging from random places on the screen to get to options and menus and it's extremely unintuitive. I've used PCs for years before getting a Mac and the learning curve for Windows 8 is tremendous. New PC users will be confused as hell trying to get used to this.
(In my opinion) Metro just sucks. Things are forced to be full screen, there's no menus and it's just counter productive. Serious hinderance of multitasking.
Very touch friendly, but not good for keyboard/mouse. No multitouch gestures on trackpads


I'm not a Windows hater, but I honestly can't stand Windows 8. It just feels like a mess. I could never picture any business taking this whole metro thing seriously. I'd give it a 2/10, but just because it's fast.

I haven't tried it myself yet, but I'm sure your overall picture, "a mess", is accurate. I want to address a few of the points above however:

* OSX goes with very little use of the start menu. Since I don't shutdown/reboot more than once a month, I only use it to access "About this Mac." It would be viable to get rid of the start menu in my opinion - also since in the spirit of tablets, you don't shut down your PC anymore.

* New PC users will be just fine - they have to learn it anyways. Its only for the more experienced users that everything seems unintuitive.

* I thought it was possible to have "split fullscreen", e.g. half screen for one app, and half for the other. That would be useful, and a feature I would also like for the OSX fullscreen feature.

* if they don't implement multitouch thouchpads on PCs, then it's a big fail of course!

baller1308
Mar 3, 2012, 01:18 PM
Seems like Windows OS alternate between good and bad every new release. So XP = Good, Vista = Bad, Windows 7 = Good, Windows 8 = ?

deconstruct60
Mar 3, 2012, 01:26 PM
If Apple combined iOS and OS X to be the same operating system (which, from a certain layer on, they of course already are), you'd get the same reaction from users.

The same knee-jerk , uninformed reaction? .... sure.

But that is primarily negative reaction to change. You could not including any iOS elements at all , but something distinctly knew and you'd get the exact same reaction. [ There was similar "you'll pry OS 9 from my cold dead fingers" when Mac OS X appeared from hardcore OS 9 users. Were users confused and befuddled by when using Mac OS X's Classic Mode? Not really. ]


Of course it would feel like using two different operating systems. Because a user's primary impression of what the OS is, depends almost entirely on the UI that is provided, not on the deeper layers of the operating system – even though they are very relevant to the experience of course.

Just because it is skewed notion doesn't make it right. This bastardized notion of OS as the set of apps the users use is partially an artifact Microsoft perpetrating that fraud during their antitrust trail ( "Oh we can't remove IE it is part of the OS" fraud ). It isn't very helpful to view a Windows app in Unity mode as an Mac OS X app when running it via Fusion. Even though they have similar window frame wrappings. People can invoke superficial mental models of how things work ( "flat earth" ) , but that typically doesn't work all that well when the reality actually matters ( "the world is a sphere").


Users primarily use applications, not operating systems. As long as the user leverage the same set of apps it is not an issue. The only new issue is how do they mix. Mixing one Metro app with the desktop just works. ( earlier pointer to the getting started with keyboard/mouse video) that Microsoft did. The metro app can be used as a "pinned to the side" window alongside the desktop. Similar to the "snap to side" windows that were available in Windows 7. Some of this is new because folks have been hiding in their XP caves for a long time.

Krazy Bill
Mar 3, 2012, 02:10 PM
if they don't implement multitouch thouchpads on PCs, then it's a big fail of course!

Synaptics has supposedley worked on this. (http://techcrunch.com/2011/11/07/synaptics-demonstrates-windows-8-trackpad-gestures-on-video/)

My concern is what kind of trackpad drivers in Boot Camp for Win8 Apple decides to write. I doubt they'll go "all out" with gesturing even though Metro is made for it.

tkermit
Mar 3, 2012, 02:10 PM
The only new issue is how do they mix. Mixing one Metro app with the desktop just works

Nothing about the mixture of Metro apps and the Desktop "just works". The simple fact is that the user interface that Metro apps provide, even if you consider them to be efficient and enjoyable to use with a keyboard, a mouse and a large monitor, is in no way consistent with what Desktop apps offer, and you're currently forced to switch between them for the simplest of tasks. Want to open a PDF? That's possible now, but only in Metro, and only one document at a time. Want to open a picture? You're thrown into Metro, again with only one picture at a time. If you want to compare different pictures, you can launch the photos viewer on the Desktop with an entirely different UI. You also have a choice of different Internet Explorers, Control Panel UIs and different solutions for adjusting the settings of apps. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. Maybe MS will manage to improve on all of this, even though I don't see how you can successfully provide a single Ui solution that works on tablets just as well as it does on Desktop computers. We'll see. Personally, I'm just glad Apple are taking another approach.

Oh, and, by the way, a resolution of 1280x800 is not sufficient for Metro Snap to work.

Krazy Bill
Mar 3, 2012, 02:20 PM
Nothing about the mixture of Metro apps and the Desktop "just works".

This marriage of Desktop and Metro will never be elegant. And considering the established user base MS has, I don't see how they could have done it any differently.

I find easier to think of the old Win "Desktop" (and everything running inside it) as simply a metro app all by itself. It actually reminds me of running Windows7 on a mac inside a virtual machine. Given this analogy I think it's quite possible that OSX users will grasp Windows 8 functionality more quickly than Windows users will. (For those of us that also have Windows on our macs of course).

deconstruct60
Mar 3, 2012, 03:33 PM
The simple fact is that the user interface that Metro apps provide, even if you consider them to be efficient and enjoyable to use with a keyboard, a mouse and a large monitor, is in no way consistent with what Desktop apps offer,


Forced consistency is just an argument for them being the same. They are different. There is no reason everything has to be homogenous. OS X Dashboard or Windows Widgets don't have to act exactly like the more traditional apps. Desk accessories from early Mac OS days didn't act exactly like "normal" apps.



and you're currently forced to switch between them for the simplest of tasks. Want to open a PDF? That's possible now, but only in Metro,


Really? Adobe Reader stopped working in Windows 8?


Want to open a picture? You're thrown into Metro, again with only one picture at a time.


I guess Photoshop stopped working in Windows 8 too.

That is a gratuitously binding file extensions to one app problem and a default setting to Metro app problem. Flip the settings and/or use a different apps and this largely made up problem is solved.



Maybe MS will manage to improve on all of this, even though I don't see how you can successfully provide a single Ui solution that works on tablets just as well as it does on Desktop computers.

One flaw here is that the majority of even classic PCs are not desktops. They are laptops. In a couple of years what Intel is currently labeling "ultrabooks" will by themselves dominate the number of desktop computers.
Some of the constraints of tablets are going to be shared with more classic PC market merely because the form factors are similar.

The era of the "big box with slots and a monitor dangling off of it" being the dominate PC driver is over. Windows and OS X could ignore that but they'd be eaten alive by the attack of the killer tablets.



We'll see. Personally, I'm just glad Apple are taking another approach.


Apple's "full screen" apps aren't too substantially different.



Oh, and, by the way, a resolution of 1280x800 is not sufficient for Metro Snap to work.

Either you have large desktop monitor(s) or you don't. If you don't then compromises like spaces (OS X ) , dashboard mode (OS X) , full screen VM , etc you have to make. Metro is that much different.

----------


I find easier to think of the old Win "Desktop" (and everything running inside it) as simply a metro app all by itself. It actually reminds me of running Windows7 on a mac inside a virtual machine. Given this analogy I think it's quite possible that OSX users will grasp Windows 8 functionality more quickly than Windows users will.

This.

The "Finder" or "Window's desktop" is just an app. They have always been just apps. That people's mental models were flawed in not mapping this reality just makes them members of the "Flat earth" OS society.


Also folks who use VNC or remote desktop software. "Computer in a framed box by an application" concept. Neither a new concept nor a huge impediment to getting work done.

xTRIGGER092x
Mar 3, 2012, 03:39 PM
I'll take Mountain Lion over Windows 8 anyday. I actually like W8's slick aesthetics and the app store is quite nice - but it's a mess to navigate:

1. Getting to the Start menu, viewing your open programs, and getting to settings is awkward - you have to hover your mouse pointer to the precise corner of your screen, and then click (and sometimes the box to do so fades if you oh so slightly take the mouse off the corner) what you want to do.

2.Hibernation/Restart/Shut Down is more complicated than it should be - hover mouse pointer in the bottom right corner, select Settings, and then hover over Power, where a pop-up menu appears where you select what to do.

3. Getting to programs through the desktop (which, by the way, makes W8 feel very inconsistent since it's split between Metro and the traditional Windows interface); because the Start button is gone, you can't quickly access programs through the desktop unless you make a shortcut (which I had difficulty in doing - instead of dragging a program from the Start Menu to the desktop like I used to, I now had to find the program in Explorer and create a shortcut using the right-click menu) or pin to the taskbar. I later found out you can access desktop programs through the Start screen - but by default, they're not on it. You have to bring up the Metro search menu to be able to see them all in a list.

On Mountain Lion (which is pretty much Lion with a few new applications), the experience is consistent, pretty, and easy to use. Windows 8 is just pretty. It's funny how the removal of the Start button, something most Windows users take for granted, turns a relatively user-friendly OS into quite the confusing experience. Maybe I'm doing some things wrong, but that doesn't really matter; I'm a proficient user of the Windows operating system, and if I was having trouble knowing how to perform tasks in Windows 8, then chances are many average users will have trouble too.

tkermit
Mar 3, 2012, 03:58 PM
@deconstruct60:
Windows 8 is basically a superset of Windows 7. Of course you can just continue using your old programs (except for the Metro launcher which you are forced to use). If you don't touch the Metro apps, I could imagine Windows 8 working great on a Desktop and offer a relatively consistent experience (except for the odd remaining Metro parts in the UI)...Of course, Windows 7 would work just as well. If you don't use Windows 8 like it's intended to be used, it works great.

Windows and OS X could ignore that but they'd be eaten alive by the attack of the killer tablets.
Yes. I'm sure Apple is terrified of their Mac products being cannibalized by the iPad, eh, I mean tablet market.

imacken
Mar 3, 2012, 04:21 PM
Apple's "full screen" apps aren't too substantially different.

No, but they do have the option whether to use in full screen or not.
I like Metro, but my biggest gripe is the way it works on a 2560x1440 screen.
In the Start screen, the tiles are lost as there is so much screen real estate, and in the full screen Metro apps, text is too large, and again, there is way too much wasted space.
I can see how the whole would work really well on smaller screens, but on large ones, not so good.

markrox7
Mar 3, 2012, 04:31 PM
I have tried out Windows 8, and I get what all the hype is about. It's truly a revolutionary OS, because it's the first OS that really combines desktop and mobile (albeit not perfectly…). OS X iss also evolving into a desktop/mobile operating system, it's just gradually getting there. This is why Windows 8 will be like Vista, IMO. OS X is keeping many elements, adding more mobile elements to it, and getting rid of old stuff from the OS that wouldn't really fit with the desktop+mobile approach. Microsoft isn't taking gradual steps to this unification like Apple is, it's instead jumping right to the point, something users aren't ready for, and this Apple understands and Microsoft doesn't. Both operating systems (OS X ML and Windows 8) are good, the difference is OS X is gradually getting to what Windows (8) abruptly became, which IMO is a much better approach.
By the time people get accustomed to Windows 8, OS X will have blended with iOS much more gradually, so users won't be overwhelmed with so much change at once. Both companies are revolutionizing mobile and desktop OSes into one, the difference is Apple is taking its time while Microsoft is pushing it out as quickly as it can.

fattire357
Mar 3, 2012, 08:52 PM
I just tried using Windows 8 Consumer Preview, and yeah its a beta, but WOW, if the final product is anything similar to the preview, that thing is a mess.

They changed everything, but it feels really dumb where things are placed. The cool thing about a mac is that it is intuitive enough that most people can pick it up and know how to work it.

I spent the greater part of 30 minutes trying to figure out how to restart it to go back into OSX.

The solution? You have to click the bottom left hand part of the screen (despite nothing to clue you into that) - then click your name on the top right part of the screen and log yourself out - then you have to click and drag the entire screen up so you can see another set of icons in the bottom right hand corner that includes a shutdown screen.

There may be an easier solution than that - but it really shouldn't be THAT hard to find out.

This is a huge mess.

----------

I'm dual booting ML and W8 and I have to say that Windows 8 is probably the least user friendly OS that I've ever used. Here are my observations.


Start menu is completely removed. Simple things like shutting down your computer just got a lot harder.
Metro UI seems to be slapped on top of Windows 7. Feels like two separate operating systems.
Gestures are awful. Things involve clicking and dragging from random places on the screen to get to options and menus and it's extremely unintuitive. I've used PCs for years before getting a Mac and the learning curve for Windows 8 is tremendous. New PC users will be confused as hell trying to get used to this.
(In my opinion) Metro just sucks. Things are forced to be full screen, there's no menus and it's just counter productive. Serious hinderance of multitasking.
Speaking of Multitasking, there's no way to close opened Metro apps.
There's no connection between Metro apps and normal apps. Bookmarks and passwords on Metro IE are separate from normal IE for example. Metro IE also lacks plugins and flash. No reason to use it over normal IE.
Native apps have not been updated. You'd expect Windows Media Center and apps like that to get a metro makeover, but they're still no different from Windows 7.
Boots up quickly and runs applications very fast. This is the strongest point of the OS.
Very touch friendly, but not good for keyboard/mouse. No multitouch gestures on trackpads
App store is pretty populated, but Metro apps are just no good with keyboard and mouse.


I'm not a Windows hater, but I honestly can't stand Windows 8. It just feels like a mess. I could never picture any business taking this whole metro thing seriously. I'd give it a 2/10, but just because it's fast.

This.

LachlanH
Mar 3, 2012, 09:23 PM
Here is one issue I can see with Windows 8 that may or may not become a reality.


Every PC laptop I get handed to look at while at work all work slightly different. Want to switch display modes to connect to a projector? Thats Function+F7.....or F5...........or F6...or Ctrl+Function+F3.........

Want to turn the sound up or down? Brightness? Wireless on/off?

It's different on every laptop depending on what the manufacturer decides on.
You use any Mac and the controls are the same. A White macbook running Lion has the same gestures as a 17" Macbook Pro running Lion, which are also the same as an iMac with a magick trackpad.

My big concern is that Windows 8 will allow for manufactures to each customise their own gestures, meaning NOTHING is standard. 3 finger swipe on an Asus laptop might do something totally different to a Lenovo laptop. It's not so bad if you only ever use the one laptop but as someone who uses all sorts of different brands and models each day it would be a major hassale and completely non user friendly.

Microsoft needs to somehow come up with a set of gestures that they mandate are the same across all machines regardless of model. They may already be doing this, but I can totally see Asus/Acer/HP/Lenovo all writing their own 'custom' drivers with different gestures.


Which is actually my biggest gripe with any non Mac laptop. The crapware each company loads onto their laptop is SO horrible it kills the user experience. Who the HELL wants the first time they bootup their laptop to be full of popups for registering Norton antivirus, accepting the agreement to start using MS Office TRIAL, and all the other crap they have.

Honestly I saw one the other day, you turn it on and the first thing it does is INSTALL the operating system, followed by the drivers. It took 4 reboots and THREE hours for it to complete this setup before the laptop was actually useable. Total garbage IMO.

Krazy Bill
Mar 3, 2012, 10:14 PM
Microsoft needs to somehow come up with a set of gestures that they mandate are the same across all machines regardless of modelCan't be done. No more than MS deciding what external monitor you attach to that laptop. And you can't expect that either. There are just too many manufacturers that need the ability to tout their machine as better than everyone else's.

You use any Mac and the controls are the same. A White macbook running Lion has the same gestures as a 17" Macbook Pro running Lion, which are also the same as an iMac with a magick trackpad.Yes, this is one of the finer points of taking the "walled garden" approach by building both the hardware and the OS that runs it. Of course along with that comes the "my way or the high way" mentality.

But I do agree on how important gestures are to the experience. Occasionally I get stuck on a Lenovo at work and have to master physical trackpad buttons all over again. :(

pdjudd
Mar 3, 2012, 10:31 PM
Can't be done. No more than MS deciding what external monitor you attach to that laptop. And you can't expect that either. There are just too many manufacturers that need the ability to tout their machine as better than everyone else's.

Well it can be technologcally done - it would just require MS to exert extreme control over their OS (via licensing requirements). Trouble is, the third parties (of course) would never sign on to such an operation. MS would have to do an Apple and make the hardware essentially internal. MS of course would be as successful with that as they were the Zune - they know what happens when you compete with an Apple in a position of power.

As you said - it just aint happening.

Brad9893
Mar 3, 2012, 10:38 PM
I just tried using Windows 8 Consumer Preview, and yeah its a beta, but WOW, if the final product is anything similar to the preview, that thing is a mess.

They changed everything, but it feels really dumb where things are placed. The cool thing about a mac is that it is intuitive enough that most people can pick it up and know how to work it.

I spent the greater part of 30 minutes trying to figure out how to restart it to go back into OSX.

The solution? You have to click the bottom left hand part of the screen (despite nothing to clue you into that) - then click your name on the top right part of the screen and log yourself out - then you have to click and drag the entire screen up so you can see another set of icons in the bottom right hand corner that includes a shutdown screen.

There may be an easier solution than that - but it really shouldn't be THAT hard to find out.

This is a huge mess.

----------



This.

I found an easier way to restart. In the desktop, hover over one of the right corners to get the charms bar to pop up. Then hit the charm for "Settings". There should be a power button for shutdown/restart at the bottom.

throAU
Mar 3, 2012, 11:32 PM
I've had a brief play with Windows 8 and my initial thoughts are:

- my end users are going to be totally lost with the new UI
- trying to find settings to change stuff is a total PITA
- the start button menu is finally gone. you can see the beginnings of this back in Vista and 7 with the search box. I never bother using the menu anymore, just type the name of the app...


However, I actually think the new UI may work out. The transition is going to be a massive pain though, and trying to support both this and Windows 7 during a transition phase will be a nightmare. I don't like using it at the moment, but I've only spent about 45 minutes with it so far.

Personally, I find it is interesting that Apple has taken the more conservative approach and kept OS X mostly the same in terms of UI since 2001. Apple is usually the one to break compatibility, instigate major change, and to hell with the old way things are done. Microsoft is usually the ultra-conservative, "backwards compat at any cost!" enterprise friendly vendor. They're taking a massive gamble here, that if they throw that out the Window their customer base will stay.

Home users, given the choice between staying with MS and having to re-learn everything, or going to a Mac, that has nicer hardware and a proven solid OS with extensive online tutorials, documentation, etc that talks to their iDevices way better may well pick the Mac.

Its a massive gamble by MS here, I suspect they're betting the farm on metro, and hoping that Metro on the desktop will accelerate adoption of Windows mobile (and vice versa).

blackhand1001
Mar 4, 2012, 01:20 AM
Here is one issue I can see with Windows 8 that may or may not become a reality.


Every PC laptop I get handed to look at while at work all work slightly different. Want to switch display modes to connect to a projector? Thats Function+F7.....or F5...........or F6...or Ctrl+Function+F3.........

Want to turn the sound up or down? Brightness? Wireless on/off?

It's different on every laptop depending on what the manufacturer decides on.
You use any Mac and the controls are the same. A White macbook running Lion has the same gestures as a 17" Macbook Pro running Lion, which are also the same as an iMac with a magick trackpad.

My big concern is that Windows 8 will allow for manufactures to each customise their own gestures, meaning NOTHING is standard. 3 finger swipe on an Asus laptop might do something totally different to a Lenovo laptop. It's not so bad if you only ever use the one laptop but as someone who uses all sorts of different brands and models each day it would be a major hassale and completely non user friendly.

Microsoft needs to somehow come up with a set of gestures that they mandate are the same across all machines regardless of model. They may already be doing this, but I can totally see Asus/Acer/HP/Lenovo all writing their own 'custom' drivers with different gestures.


Which is actually my biggest gripe with any non Mac laptop. The crapware each company loads onto their laptop is SO horrible it kills the user experience. Who the HELL wants the first time they bootup their laptop to be full of popups for registering Norton antivirus, accepting the agreement to start using MS Office TRIAL, and all the other crap they have.

Honestly I saw one the other day, you turn it on and the first thing it does is INSTALL the operating system, followed by the drivers. It took 4 reboots and THREE hours for it to complete this setup before the laptop was actually useable. Total garbage IMO.


For future reference, on all vista, 7, and 8 machines, windows key + P will switch between projector modes. It gives you a nice alt tab like selector as well.

Guru53
Mar 4, 2012, 03:00 AM
I dual boot Windows 7 Ultimate and OS X Lion on my MacBook Pro and after seeing what Microsoft has done with Windows 8, I highly doubt I will be upgrading unless they make some serious changes. All I really want are some new features (built in ISO support sounded great) and further optimization and I would have been sold.

Liquinn
Mar 4, 2012, 06:53 AM
Something Microsoft cannot match is the compatibility of iDevices.

maflynn
Mar 4, 2012, 07:48 AM
Something Microsoft cannot match is the compatibility of iDevices.

Conversely Apple cannot match Microsoft's compatibility with a large and varied list of hardware. I don't want to sound trollish, but Apple's strength in its ecosystems is great but MS has advantages as well.

Liquinn
Mar 4, 2012, 07:54 AM
Conversely Apple cannot match Microsoft's compatibility with a large and varied list of hardware. I don't want to sound trollish, but Apple's strength in its ecosystems is great but MS has advantages as well.
MS may have a few advantages. I saw a very very good spec PC laptop for 800 UK pounds. But it's not the MBP I want. Spec isn't everything. My Mac Mini feels faster than any PC of mine feels like.

I'm not going to bother installing Windows 8 on top of Windows 7 on my other PC laptop. I may however just VMWare it on my Mac if it's worth the hassle.

:apple:

maflynn
Mar 4, 2012, 08:11 AM
I'm not going to bother installing Windows 8 on top of Windows 7 on my other PC laptop. I may however just VMWare it on my Mac if it's worth the hassle.

:apple:

I have win8 as a VM and so far I have to say I hate the UI. I think Ms is making a huge mistake by trying to shoe horn a phone/tablet UI into the desktop.

As for PC performance, I built my own PC and its fast, so not all PC hardware is bad

:)

deconstruct60
Mar 4, 2012, 10:30 AM
@deconstruct60:
Windows 8 is basically a superset of Windows 7. Of course you can just continue using your old programs (except for the Metro launcher which you are forced to use).

The launcher is a pragmatically a menu context ( just a larger canvas than the older start menu consumed). It is gone when you are done with it. As a percentage of time on screen in comparison to your workflow apps it is going to be very small. I suspect some people will spend more time complaining about it than it actually spends on the screen.


...Of course, Windows 7 would work just as well.


That's doubtful because there are very substantive feature once get beyond focusing on Metro.


If you don't use Windows 8 like it's intended to be used, it works great.


There is a difference between how the defaults are set out of the box for the generic population and what it is the intended use. All the indications are is that Windows 8 is intended to be customized to be the right tool for the right job.

Making the Metro apps the defaults fits for two reasons. One, the majority of the PCs this will be sold on have the smaller screens and will be mobile. Second, if Microsoft hides the new features, no one will use them.

It is highly likely that individual system vendors may tweak the default image. ( they certainly tend to install their own set of apps for current WinPCs. Customizing the start screen and some defaults toward their "value add" apps is just as likely. )



Yes. I'm sure Apple is terrified of their Mac products being cannibalized by the iPad, eh, I mean tablet market.

Chuckle. If Microsoft gets the pricing of Windows-on-Arm right the days of iPad being equivalent to the tablet market will be over in a year or so. They may shoot themselves in the head being greedy, but I suspect being in 3rd place brings some clarity. It has been surprising Google has bungled Android on non-phones as much as they have.

Just like the iPhone, the iPad is on track to drift to being just a participant in the market. Once the products eating Mac share are not Apple products... yeah Apple will get nervous. They would be foolishly arrogant to not see the simple path to where that happens if they put OS X into non-innovative mode for a year or so.

deconstruct60
Mar 4, 2012, 10:44 AM
...
I like Metro, but my biggest gripe is the way it works on a 2560x1440 screen.
In the Start screen, the tiles are lost as there is so much screen real estate, and in the full screen Metro apps, text is too large, and again, there is way too much wasted space.


Some of the tiles can be set to "larger" versions. It may take till "version 2.0" but I suspect they just need more than just two tile sizes 'smaller' and 'larger'. For instance, the classic app tiles tend to default to the smaller square. For those primarily working with those apps the larger rectangle would make that group consume more space (and it gives the user a larger target to hit which is a usability upside). An example from the server start screen:

http://static.arstechnica.net/assets/2012/02/windows_8_server_start_screen-4f4eaac-intro-thumb-640xauto-30832.png

http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2012/02/hands-on-with-windows-8-server-beta-a-quick-start-to-domain-domination.ars?src=fbk

A bunch of those have "...." in their presentation because the name doesn't fit. If using a large screen there is no reason not to list the full name with a larger tile.

Single square, larger (two side-by-side squares) , and perhaps a new one largest ( a 4 square ). The last could contain a couple of pieces of "live" info if implemented as a live square. (e.g,. on a server a mini summary of uptime, workload, status)



I can see how the whole would work really well on smaller screens, but on large ones, not so good.

It is Microsoft. I takes until version 3.0 till they have all the kinks worked out. :)

deconstruct60
Mar 4, 2012, 10:57 AM
Home users, given the choice between staying with MS and having to re-learn everything, or going to a Mac, that has nicer hardware and a proven solid OS with extensive online tutorials, documentation, etc that talks to their iDevices way better may well pick the Mac.


Doubtful. One of the primary factors driving choice is cost. As long as Apple stick with the $999 and up (with the mini being the outlier), a large fraction of folks will take the Windows box because it is more affordable.

Apple may take slight more of the $999 and up share but over time that share is going to retract. Apple is growing by taking share away from other over $999 vendors, not by growing the overall market.

MacRumorUser
Mar 4, 2012, 11:14 AM
I really like windows 7, windows 8 leaves me a little confused. Whilst I see it's potential on a tablet or touch screen device, on standard laptop and desktop I just don't think it gels at the moment.

I've tried developers preview and now the widows 8 consumer preview and server preview but I find what would take a few seconds previously is now taking longer to perform, and surely the purpose of the GUI is to simplify a process, not over complicate it - albeit masqueraded in superficially easier to use tile interface.

At the moment its a rather twisted hybrid not really accomplashing the task for tablets or standard computers. As a tablet OS it feels jaring to me when you are suddenly landed on semi traditional desktop with figgly windows.

Straying from the Metro UI feels wrong when using your hands, and vice versa to me the desktop experience should be more akin to standard windows 7, with the metro UI shell it just doesnt feel right with a mouse and keyboard.


At moment it feels like its attempting to be the OS equivilent of Jack of all trades and yet master of none.

Though things could change, as it currently stands I prefer the way Lion integrate some features of iOS but makes them entirely optional. Mountain Lions way of dealing with Reminder, Notes and Calendar are much improved and suit regular desktop / laptop usage. Launchpad still feels unnecessary on a computer.

tkermit
Mar 4, 2012, 11:35 AM
Making the Metro apps the defaults fits for two reasons. One, the majority of the PCs this will be sold on have the smaller screens and will be mobile. Second, if Microsoft hides the new features, no one will use them.

That's exactly right. They are forcing Metro onto Desktop users because MS have their sights firmly on the tablet market and don't actually expect Metro to appeal to Desktop users enough for them to naturally start using it, but still need them on board so that developers see a need to provide Metro apps. If Metro was only offered on tablets, MS wouldn't be able to boast about the huge market opportunity there is for developers.

jman240
Mar 4, 2012, 12:06 PM
If Microsoft had done something like this http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/25/2824064/incredible-mockup-of-windows-desktop-gone-metro I would have jumped for joy.

What they did with Win8 is inexcusably bad. For a company with that many resources who thought this was a good idea. They don't understand simple. They think removing all the UI elements = Simple but what you get is a confusing and hard to use mess. There is a reason that Safari on the iPad doesn't hide any of the UI. There are hidden elements sure but its not running full screen without any UI. One cool thing I discovered the other day was holding down the + showed a list of recently closed tabs.

Anyway, Microsoft is going to learn a hard lesson this year I think.

afin
Mar 4, 2012, 12:14 PM
If Microsoft had done something like this http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/25/2824064/incredible-mockup-of-windows-desktop-gone-metro I would have jumped for joy.

What they did with Win8 is inexcusably bad. For a company with that many resources who thought this was a good idea. They don't understand simple. They think removing all the UI elements = Simple but what you get is a confusing and hard to use mess. There is a reason that Safari on the iPad doesn't hide any of the UI. There are hidden elements sure but its not running full screen without any UI. One cool thing I discovered the other day was holding down the + showed a list of recently closed tabs.

Anyway, Microsoft is going to learn a hard lesson this year I think.

I think how hard of a lesson depends on the price point as well as the type of consumer they will be targeting with this release. Though who am I kidding, it will likely be $100+.

All jesting aside, I would be all over that mockup.

irnchriz
Mar 4, 2012, 12:56 PM
It looks like Microsoft have built windows 8 for tablets and touch and totally forgotten that it will also run on desktops. The mouse and keyboard controls are awful.

jman240
Mar 4, 2012, 03:44 PM
I think how hard of a lesson depends on the price point as well as the type of consumer they will be targeting with this release. Though who am I kidding, it will likely be $100+.

All jesting aside, I would be all over that mockup.

Someone found references to 9 SKUs in the Consumer Preview. 9 Versions of Windows 8.

I'm really wondering now that Apple is on a yearly development cycle for their OS's how long it will be between Win8 and Win9. If there's another 3+ year gap before Microsoft can iterate it may be waaaaaay too slow for the whole tablet OS sphere.

afin
Mar 4, 2012, 04:30 PM
Someone found references to 9 SKUs in the Consumer Preview. 9 Versions of Windows 8.

I'm really wondering now that Apple is on a yearly development cycle for their OS's how long it will be between Win8 and Win9. If there's another 3+ year gap before Microsoft can iterate it may be waaaaaay too slow for the whole tablet OS sphere.

That's an interesting point. Microsoft seems to be breaking a few "traditions" with this operating system, so maybe that means they are already changing to accommodate the consumer/tablet based market in that regard?

However, that doesn't seem to fit their enterprise business model at all. Businesses wait years and years to upgrade.

Cougarcat
Mar 4, 2012, 04:30 PM
Anyone know if there's a third party utility to add gesture support to an apple trackpad or Magic Trackpad? Might make Metro more usable.

markrox7
Mar 4, 2012, 05:11 PM
I tried the Windows 8 consumer preview and I liked it. I found the occasional big but that didn't bother me. The thing I hated most is how it's here's towards tablets/touch and virtually unusable on a computer with a keyboard. If I had windows 8 on a tablet I would have enjoyed it much more.

LachlanH
Mar 4, 2012, 07:53 PM
For future reference, on all vista, 7, and 8 machines, windows key + P will switch between projector modes. It gives you a nice alt tab like selector as well.

Odd, I was not aware of this at all. Thanks for the heads up.

throAU
Mar 4, 2012, 08:34 PM
Conversely Apple cannot match Microsoft's compatibility with a large and varied list of hardware. I don't want to sound trollish, but Apple's strength in its ecosystems is great but MS has advantages as well.

And this is gradually being thrown out the Window with Metro. Native Metro apps will not be compatible with Windows 7 and previous, and non-metro apps will look out of place and require the user to switch between two different UI styles.

----------

Doubtful. One of the primary factors driving choice is cost. As long as Apple stick with the $999 and up (with the mini being the outlier), a large fraction of folks will take the Windows box because it is more affordable.

Apple may take slight more of the $999 and up share but over time that share is going to retract. Apple is growing by taking share away from other over $999 vendors, not by growing the overall market.

So you think the mini is not going to be an option for people who don't like Windows 8?

Mac is already gaining market share, and has been increasing sales at 25% per quarter for a very long time now (years, something like 20 quarters or something?).

There's already a halo effect from the iPhone and iPad; the abomination that is Windows 8 could well be the thing that pushes a lot more people over the edge.

There are PLENTY of Windows XP hold-outs who refused to upgrade to Vista or 7. Windows XP runs out of extended support this year, and new hardware won't support their OS next time they upgrade PCs.

I'm not saying it WILL happen, but there's a half-decent chance.

Krazy Bill
Mar 4, 2012, 10:33 PM
There are PLENTY of Windows XP hold-outs who refused to upgrade to Vista or 7.

There's also a few of us still on Snow Leopard who refuse to go to Lion and don't like where things are headed based on Mountain Lion. :)

If somebody would write some decent trackpad drivers for Windows 8 under bootcamp I'd dump OSX in a heartbeat. (Still a genuine fan of Mac build quality).

Windows XP runs out of extended support this year, and new hardware won't support their OS next time they upgrade PCs.The ink on my SL disk isn't even dry yet but it won't install on a new mac.

deconstruct60
Mar 5, 2012, 10:35 AM
So you think the mini is not going to be an option for people who don't like Windows 8?


If they are looking for a mobile/laptop solution then, no it won't be an option. Most PC users are looking for mobile/laptop solutions. Just look at the numbers of what people actually buy.

Similarly the folks looking for an xMac (headless iMac ) with a couple of PCI-e slots for higher end graphics are not going to buy the mini either.

There are some that are going to buy the mini. But the point is to look at what most people are buying.

Most people are buying mobile solutions. Mountain Lion's and Windows 8 skew toward making that sort of hardware more effective to use perfectly aligns with where the overall market is heading toward. Windows 8 also has features for the classic "box with slots" hardware but it is not what folks are yelping about.



Mac is already gaining market share, and has been increasing sales at 25% per quarter for a very long time now (years, something like 20 quarters or something?).


Up until relatively recently the overall PC market has been increasing. Apple going up while the whole market is going up typically lead to them treading water with perhaps relatively small (to overall market) gains.

Recently the PC (classified without tablets) market has gone flat. In that context Apple has been largely stealing share from other vendors. That is a zero sum game. At some point, unless the overall market starts growing, they will hit a wall in the next several years.


the abomination that is Windows 8 could well be the thing that pushes a lot more people over the edge.

Except Windows 8 isn't likely to push folks over the edge who are heavily wedded to either vendor diversity (which OS X offers none ), costs (more affordable PCs ) , or Windows infrastructure ( rip out AD , CIF/SMB , IE5 web apps , etc. ).


There are PLENTY of Windows XP hold-outs who refused to upgrade to Vista or 7. Windows XP runs out of extended support this year, and new hardware won't support their OS next time they upgrade PCs.

First, Extended XP runs out in 2014

http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?c2=1173 (for USA users at least).

which is sufficient time for Windows 8 to get its first Service Pack if not get to a stable point release update status.

Second, it is primarily Luddites (or stalled hardware upgrade cycles ) that aren't moving to Win7 from XP. Many of those folks frightened off of Windows 8 will likely be able to optionally choose Win7. Vista ... yeah no one is going there, but Win7 wasn't that bad. It is at close to 40% of the Windows market right now. It has done a good job of killing off Vista and serving as a destination for XP users willing to get moving. Between Win7 , Win8 , and Mac OS X which OS has the closest application compatibility with XP ?

Third, anyone looking for 10 years of OS support isn't going to find it at Apple. Your assumption is that folks who want to cling to an OS as long as possible (e.g, XP users ) will jump to Apple in large numbers. That assumption has huge holes in it. Huge.



I'm not saying it WILL happen, but there's a half-decent chance.

I would put the chances at slim. Win7 deployments will probably continue to grow. The combination of Win8 and Win7 growth will likely relatively rapidly shrink the XP market share over next 2 years. OS X will snare a larger fraction of the "significantly above average selling price" PCs but that will remain a sub 10% share worldwide.

tkermit
Mar 5, 2012, 10:59 AM
I found this analysis by Asymco (When will tablets outsell traditional PCs? (http://www.asymco.com/2012/03/02/when-will-the-tablet-market-be-larger-than-the-pc-market/)) pretty interesting, and it offers a perspective as to why Microsoft seems to be operating in panic mode.

deconstruct60
Mar 5, 2012, 11:14 AM
That's exactly right. They are forcing Metro onto Desktop users because MS have their sights firmly on the tablet market and don't actually expect Metro to appeal to Desktop users enough for them to naturally start using it,


No you are spinning what I said to push your premise. Your premise is flawed. The PC market wants mobile/laptop solutions. That is what people are buying in larger numbers. Orienting the major improvements in the OS toward non-mobile PCs is a grossly flawed idea, because that is not what most people are saying they want.

It isn't just tablets but most laptops that can leverage what Metro does on relatively (to 24-27" monitors) smaller screens.

Second, they aren't forcing anyone to use the apps other then perhaps a try out before resetting the customization settings. They want folks to try them, but are leaving the option to switch to another mode of operation. If they wanted to force people to use the apps over an extended period of time then customization would be alot harder or nonexistent.


but still need them on board so that developers see a need to provide Metro apps. If Metro was only offered on tablets, MS wouldn't be able to boast about the huge market opportunity there is for developers.

Chuckle. laptops/tablets outsold desktops years ago. (and I mean tablets in the broad sense, and not as a euphemism for iPad or iPad clone.). It is only going to be more skewed toward them in the next 2-5 years (which is the prime of Windows 8 lifecycle). There already is a huge market opportunity for apps aimed at those platforms. WinRT (http://blogs.microsoft.co.il/blogs/sasha/archive/2011/09/15/winrt-and-net-in-windows-8.aspx) makes building multiplatform apps much easier. Even easier than porting between iOS and OS X (which Apple is also trying to do with a more merged set of APIs and apps distribution models. ).

The last hot submarket in PCs was the netbooks. Netbooks had a problem in that the relatively high percentages vendors had to pay for Windows and the Intel CPU/chipset left rest of the device in a lower quality state. If Microsoft drops the costs ( savings driven by only ports to fixed, validated hardware configs) and lower ARM SoC costs ( dump Intel's higher priced solutions ) vendor could afford to increase quality in other components ( screen , case , multitouch pad , etc. ) at similar system costs. That hot growth category will probably return. Next generation Intel will have SoC solutions for x86s which will only sustain that growth further with folks who need several x86 apps.

That lower cost mobile/laptop system market far exceeds what the classic desktop-only market is going to do over next 5 years. Frankly, that kind of high volume/growth market is the only thing that can support these "App stores" with relatively low application prices. For smaller developers there is a deep need to find volume to make up for low prices. Targeting primarily large screened, fixed desktops isn't a good approach to hitting a volume market.

tkermit
Mar 5, 2012, 11:27 AM
The PC market wants mobile/laptop solutions.

True.


It isn't just tablets but most laptops that can leverage what Metro does on relatively (to 24-27" monitors) smaller screens.
I fundamentally disagree that Metro works great on non-touch devices.

Second, they aren't forcing anyone to use the apps
You're being disingenuous if you don't admit to them pushing the included Metro apps on people. Have you seen the Start screen?

laptops/tablets outsold desktops years ago.
Microsoft may see laptops/tablets as the same category. The consumer market, so far, seems to appreciate tailored interfaces for tablets (touch ) and laptops (keyboard & trackpad) each.


The last hot submarket in PCs was the netbooks. […] If […] That hot growth category will probably return.
You've got to be kidding.

deconstruct60
Mar 5, 2012, 12:12 PM
I found this analysis by Asymco (When will tablets outsell traditional PCs? (http://www.asymco.com/2012/03/02/when-will-the-tablet-market-be-larger-than-the-pc-market/)) pretty interesting,

Pretty interestingly flawed. There is no way the growth rates for iPad and Android are in a power dive and then magically perfectly flatten off into a steady state hypergrowth (~60-90 y/y ) mode.

It is also a bit more then dubious that Amazon cycle higher but it blows off Nook and others who deploy more fully custom versions of Android. So slightly offbase there.


and it offers a perspective as to why Microsoft seems to be operating in panic mode.

It isn't "panic" mode. Merely adapting to the market. Certainly, if Microsoft gives away growth to fuel that steady state hypergrowth to iOS/Android

If the graph were more fully decomposed into Windows/Desktop and Windows/Laptops subgroups it would be evident that this isn't a "new" recent (1Q11) issue. It has been coming for several years. In plenty of time to get incorporated into early Windows 8 planning a couple of years ago.

ericrwalker
Mar 5, 2012, 12:26 PM
I installed Windows 8 CP on a spare HD I had laying around on my Dell Saturday. I can honestly say I hate the "tablet look" my computer and I miss the start menu.

I'll try to stick with my computer for a while, but as for Windows I think 7 is the best version so far.

All the more reason to go to OSX.

Krazy Bill
Mar 5, 2012, 02:20 PM
I installed Windows 8 CP on a spare HD I had laying around on my Dell Saturday. I can honestly say I hate the "tablet look" my computer and I miss the start menu.Well, the OSX Lion/ML fans here would just tell you not to use those new features. Problem solved. :D

I'll try to stick with my computer for a while, but as for Windows I think 7 is the best version so far.

It's still there. In Windows 8.

tkermit
Mar 5, 2012, 02:38 PM
Well, the OSX Lion/ML fans here would just tell you not to use those new features.

They'd have a harder time telling you that if OS X actually booted into Launchpad instead of the Desktop, and an even harder one at that, if Launchpad contained shortcuts to iOS apps instead of the ones from OS X.

thundersteele
Mar 10, 2012, 03:07 PM
Here is a more detailed review of Win 8:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5630/indepth-with-the-windows-8-consumer-preview

My conclusions:
1) MS does a great job of making the OS run on older hardware. Apple failed here with Lion, but ML seems to do better again.

2) Metro will be accepted in the long term. OSX 10.9 will have something similar, hopefully better!

baryon
Mar 10, 2012, 04:36 PM
I know little about Windows 8, but I use Windows 7 at work a lot and I use Lion at home. And the more I use Windows 7, the more I hate it. I never really hated XP to be honest, and I still like it, but it obviously lacks pretty much everything you want an OS to do today.

But the style Microsoft seems to be going in is just… not a style at all. It's the pure definition of boring, business-like, gimmicky fancy ugliness. Like those transparent windows that have a matt texture with a shine on top. Wait, you mean, they're transparent, yet matte, and yet they shine? How the hell does that make sense? Obviously it renders text illegible so there has to be a while halo around it, which is horrible too.

But Metro? Huge, square boxes with monochrome icons in the middle? Is this the 1980's? And scrolling between them seems so damn laggy and unresponsive too. To me, there is nothing more important than an OS that responds to what you do, immediately, as you do it, with no lag. Apple is great at that (most of the time).

Microsoft is concentrating on merging tablets with PCs, and they are not caring about consistency, design, and usability at all. I don't know what happened to them since XP, but with Vista they just started to go downhill in terms of design and style.

I don't mind the iOS-like apps in Lion and ML, since they have a clean look. They look super modern and minimalistic, just like the rest of the OS. The only thing I hate in Lion is that Apple took features away that they made us get used to and love, such as Spaces, Exposé, and certain gestures. Not a huge deal, but I don't see why they changed certain things.

coolspot18
Mar 11, 2012, 11:00 PM
Lack of decent spaces/expose, useless features such as launchpad and gestures (I know I don't have to use them but a lot of emphasis is put on them), autosave (can't stand it), and the fact that it was buggy and seemed inconsistent. Mountain Lion seems to introduce a lot of consistency again, but I still don't like it. Hate on me all you want, I don't like it.

OS X has a pile of bugs that need to be fixed, like Bluetooth audio support, Finder copy/move bugs... a lot of serious core issues that have not been addressed for years.