Java 1.4.1 Developer Preview

[MacRumors]

Apple released a Developer Preview of Java 1.4.1. Details posted in this mailing list email (http://lists.apple.com/mhonarc/java-dev/msg23019.html) (Username/Pass: archives/archives):


The wait is over! Apple is excited to announce our first official
Developer Preview of Java 1.4.1 for Mac OS X version 10.2!


No definitive date for final release. Apple's implementation of Java 1.4 has been discussed since February (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/02/20020228101247.shtml)

[LimeiBook86]

Whats the Java thing? It's for webpages and web browsers right? Please tell me I'm right... What does this meen for Apple?

[aramk]

This is excellent news! Java and Cocoa Java is a path that Apple should (and is) taking seriously - this OOP language is easy to learn and very powerful! Kudos to Apple for finally getting around to implementing or at least working on an implementation of the latest Java.

[macktheknife]

Originally posted by LimeiBook86
Whats the Java thing? It's for webpages and web browsers right? Please tell me I'm right... What does this meen for Apple?

You're kidding me, right?

[liloconf]

hey just cuased he don't no java dont meen he should be piked on.. i meen i dont no how two speel!

[foniks2020]

Originally posted by LimeiBook86
Whats the Java thing? It's for webpages and web browsers right? Please tell me I'm right... What does this meen for Apple?

Hmmm.. well my company is very happy about this as it means that our entire Management Console Suite for storage devices can now be run from OS X... well maybe not the whole company but I am very happy that now I won't have to do testing on the poor derelict PC which I have only because of java 1.4

[Telomar]

Originally posted by macktheknife


You're kidding me, right? Generally when someone responds like that and fails to expand it is a good sign it was a defensive mechanism for when you don't know the answer yourself.

If you have problems with what he said I would take it as what's so important about this version of Java that it really warrants a mention and what will it mean to Apple? There has been some substantial work done and rewriting of code for this release so it is important.

I will leave that for someone more active in Java development to answer though.

[PrettyMan]

I think that it's a very-very important event. Almost for me.

But http://connect.apple.com/ seems to be offline.

OK. I'll wait a bit more...

Ciao. :rolleyes:

[Mirage_]

Originally posted by LimeiBook86
Whats the Java thing? It's for webpages and web browsers right? Please tell me I'm right... What does this meen for Apple? Java is a crossplatform programming language. What this means is that you only have to write the application once, and it should compile and run on Mac, Windows and Linux. Java Applets are little programs that run on web pages, they never really caught on for most people. Flash and Shockwave filled that market. But if you see 'loading applet' thats a java applet. I don't know if this is a sufficient explanation...Maybe someone else would care to expand. I like C

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by foniks2020


Hmmm.. well my company is very happy about this as it means that our entire Management Console Suite for storage devices can now be run from OS X... well maybe not the whole company but I am very happy that now I won't have to do testing on the poor derelict PC which I have only because of java 1.4

How ironic is it that Java, perhaps the most modern of languages, compels people to use very old hardware to access it.

The whole point of Java is to be agnostic of hardware, but this is rediculous!

Rocketman

[Taft]

Originally posted by Telomar
Generally when someone responds like that and fails to expand it is a good sign it was a defensive mechanism for when you don't know the answer yourself.

If you have problems with what he said I would take it as what's so important about this version of Java that it really warrants a mention and what will it mean to Apple? There has been some substantial work done and rewriting of code for this release so it is important.

I will leave that for someone more active in Java development to answer though.

YOU'RE kidding, right?? I also find it quite surprising that he didn't know what Java is. With all of the publcity for Java out there, its quite surprising.

This is definitely good news from Apple, but it seems like there may be problems. For instance, it looks like they changed some of the Apple specific classes. This is apparent if you try running Limewire. There is either a class missing or not in a proper location which is related to Carbon.

This may also be a case of Limewire using improper classes or libraries in their implementation. I'm looking into what that cactually does.

Taft

[medea]

I'll take this as further proof that Sun and Apple are working together tighter than ever.:D
This can only be good news.......

[bousozoku]

Well, this is actually Developer Preview 2.

Java is not only a language for applets, which exist in web pages, but also for big applications. You might want to take a look at ThinkFree Office, an MS Office alternative, which has been written in Java. It is a prime example of Java's portability. Another is Borland's JBuilder Java development environment. These are large applications which run well on Mac OS X. :)

[The Grimace]

Originally posted by Taft


...This is apparent if you try running Limewire. There is either a class missing or not in a proper location which is related to Carbon.

This may also be a case of Limewire using improper classes or libraries in their implementation. I'm looking into what that cactually does.


Are you talking about problems in Apples current Java implementation in regards to LimeWire, or this Dev Preview? Personally, I find that LimeWire is MUCH slower to respond on my iMac DV 400 320MB under 10.2 then on my AMD K6-2 350 92MB under Win98SE. I've always wondered, and actually have posted queries, regarding this. I'm especially interested now as I'm taking an Intro to Java class at the local CC (love coding, wanna do it for a living eventually), and would like to get my Java cert at some point.

Thanks.

(tig)

[macktheknife]

Originally posted by macktheknife


You're kidding me, right?

Hey LimeiBook86, I would like to apologize for my remark. I had *zero* intention of making fun of you or ridiculing you. I was just surprised that someone who's a Macrumors regular didn't know what Java is. My apologies. :(

Anyhow, I think this is, of course, good news. Java 1.4 has been out for what, almost a year now? So this will let all OS X Java programmers up to speed with the rest of industry. If Apple and Sun were to work more closely together with timing future release dates of Java (like 1.5), it will hopefully make OS X an even more attractive option for developers.

However, I'm personally worried about the future viability of Java. I know this sounds crazy, but I have noticed that more developers are jumping on the .net bandwagon and switching to C#. Java's main appeal is its platform independence, but that is only an advantage if there were many standards used. As more and more small to mid-sized businesses switch to servers powered by Microsoft instead of UNIX, it makes sense for these businesses to adopt .net for their enterprise solutions. My friend who's a Java certified programmer has confirmed this trend, and he is also worried. Ironically, while some small to mid-sized companies are switching to Microsoft, large businesses are switching to open source software to cut costs. So hopefully, the existence and growing popularity of open source software like Linux, Apache, etc. will provide some future competition.

[Taft]

Originally posted by The Grimace


Are you talking about problems in Apples current Java implementation in regards to LimeWire, or this Dev Preview? Personally, I find that LimeWire is MUCH slower to respond on my iMac DV 400 320MB under 10.2 then on my AMD K6-2 350 92MB under Win98SE. I've always wondered, and actually have posted queries, regarding this. I'm especially interested now as I'm taking an Intro to Java class at the local CC (love coding, wanna do it for a living eventually), and would like to get my Java cert at some point.

Thanks.

(tig)

I'm talking about an actual ClassDefNotFound error when running Limewire under the current developer preview of Java 1.4.1. The error was in reference to a Carbon class. My guess is that Limewire was using non standard classes for their GUI or filesystem stuff for the Mac and that Apple dropped those classes in the latest implementations.

Either that, or I've got a bad install of Java 1.4.1.

I'm not sure why Limewire is so damn slow in OS X. I've had good luck with other Java apps I use including JBuilder and IDEA. Maybe I am right about them using non standard classes for their OS X implementation and thats why its so slow.

Or maybe Limwire is just a giant pile of crap.

Taft

[The Grimace]

Originally posted by Taft

...Or maybe Limwire is just a giant pile of crap.


Broke out laughing :D

(tig)

[Catfish_Man]

...is VERY VERY broken. Apple knows this. That's why it's DP2, not final. I would guess that LimeWire (which is crap) uses some stuff that's broken right now.

[iJed]

Its good to see Java 1.4 on the Mac finally. This is going to make my life a hell of a lot easier when its complete.

I would just like to say that it is a common mistake to think that Java is only for web based apps. There are plenty of console progs written in Java and many apps that do many things. Take JBuilder for example...

[Hemingray]

About the LameWire remarks... I just downloaded 2.7.2 today (as usual, not knowing what's new with this version), and tried it out. While I still hate its guts, I must admit it's gotten a LOT faster over the time. I remember when it was painfully sluggish, and now it's actually bordering on normal!

[codemother]

It's important because java is so strong for server side development. Look at java.sun.com and follow the links to J2ee - the api and docs for server side code. If Apple want to sell xserves then they really need to run the latest version of java to show willing, even if it's not completely required over 1.3.1

Compared to .net java is free to use esp. of course when used with apache, tomcat and jboss etc

[Telomar]

Not that this is applicable here but in terms of installed devices the most common place you would find Java is mobile phones and embedded consumer devices.

Originally posted by Taft


YOU'RE kidding, right?? I also find it quite surprising that he didn't know what Java is. With all of the publcity for Java out there, its quite surprising.Not really. Unless you actually keep an eye on computer literature (or IT related business literature) it would be relatively easy to miss. It would just be one of those words you see pop up from time to time but don't really learn anything about.

Most people neither care nor know anything about programming languages no matter how much they have been hyped.

I just don't like seeing people jump on someone because they don't know every answer under the sun. Everybody has holes in their knowledge.

[beatle888]

Originally posted by Telomar
Everybody has holes in their knowledge.

Ooh, i like that. I think someone apologized
for that comment.

[LimeiBook86]

Originally posted by Mirage_
Java is a crossplatform programming language. What this means is that you only have to write the application once, and it should compile and run on Mac, Windows and Linux. Java Applets are little programs that run on web pages, they never really caught on for most people. Flash and Shockwave filled that market. But if you see 'loading applet' thats a java applet. I don't know if this is a sufficient explanation...Maybe someone else would care to expand. I like C
I knew what Java was, btu now I know what it does, lol Thanks and no thanks for the people that picked on me :( (hee hee)

[foniks2020]

Originally posted by Rocketman


How ironic is it that Java, perhaps the most modern of languages, compels people to use very old hardware to access it.

The whole point of Java is to be agnostic of hardware, but this is rediculous!

Rocketman

The PC isn't old I just meant that it is so infrequently used by me... Windows is just such a cludge as far as I'm concerned. However it did have 1.4 with some features my company decided were necessary for the software we developed so... it was either a Windows box or a Linux box... and for my purposed the Windows box was just easier (ie no configuration needed).

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by iJed

I would just like to say that it is a common mistake to think that Java is only for web based apps. There are plenty of console progs written in Java and many apps that do many things. Take JBuilder for example...

In general, Java as a client application foundation is nowhere near as successful as Java as a server back-end application foundation. Swing (Java 1.1+ UI toolkit) is nice and much faster than AWT ever was, but still just can't compare to "native" UI widgets for either functionality or performance.

Personally, I currently am involved in about 90% C++ and 10% Java, but have been involved with Java since the 1.0e (I believe) release in 1997. Aside from one ill-fated project and a smattering of developer-only utilities (as often as not with no "real" UI, just console output), I've rarely encountered a client-side Java project.

On the other hand, Cocoa in Java is definitely not the advised route. Cocoa in Java would give a more useable (albeit non-portable) UI than bare Java/Swing, but the Objective C API is the "primary" API for Cocoa and I see no signs of that changing. I believe this was stated quite directly at last year's WWDC.

Personally, I don't use the 1.4 features yet. For me, 1.2 is the watershed Java version (and I'm too used to the various containers to easily support 1.0 or 1.1 these days). But if you are using 1.4's features, obviously Apple supporting 1.3 up to now just doesn't quite cut it ...

[jayscheuerle]

The last time I programmed was using Applesoft on my II+. I've known that the idea behind Java was its cross-platform ability. I've also heard complaints that it runs slowly on Macs. Limewire is the only program that I've heard was written in Java and I know that that is slow as beans (I prefer Acquisition). Here's my question: Does writing for cross-platform usage entail that the program has to be so butt-ugly? Limewire looks like something I would find on a PC or an old Silcon Graphics Box, something that was created by an engineer with a very limited aesthetic ability. Is it possible to write a cross-platform Java application that still looks at home in OSX?

Thanks. - j

[The Grimace]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
The last time I programmed was using Applesoft on my II+. I've known that the idea behind Java was its cross-platform ability. I've also heard complaints that it runs slowly on Macs. Limewire is the only program that I've heard was written in Java and I know that that is slow as beans (I prefer Acquisition). Here's my question: Does writing for cross-platform usage entail that the program has to be so butt-ugly? Limewire looks like something I would find on a PC or an old Silcon Graphics Box, something that was created by an engineer with a very limited aesthetic ability. Is it possible to write a cross-platform Java application that still looks at home in OSX?

Thanks. - j

Having written my first program years ago using AppleSoft on a IIe, and then not touched a computer for a decade, I can relate. I'm currently taking an Intro to Java course, and from what little I've seen is that, no, cross-platform compatibility shouldn't necessitate a compromise. Sure, there may be some performance hit due to the use of bytecode and a VM, but todays compilers and sheer processor power more often than not make up for it. As has been pointed out, LimeWire is probably just a piece of crap, code-wise. I think that any language can be leveraged effectively by the use of proper programming techniques and a fair understanding of existing APIs.

Just my humble opinion.

(tig)

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Here's my question: Does writing for cross-platform usage entail that the program has to be so butt-ugly? Limewire looks like something I would find on a PC or an old Silcon Graphics Box, something that was created by an engineer with a very limited aesthetic ability. Is it possible to write a cross-platform Java application that still looks at home in OSX?

Thanks. - j

Well, Swing has a "skinnable" interface (I forget what they call it ...) which will allow it to look like any OS, it's own "Metal" look, or the host OS (ie, the same app would have OS X controls on OS X and Windows controls on Windows).

However, the color and shape of the UI widgets does not entirely define the OS X experience. This is a large part why Java's "write once, run anywhere" promise is not as popular these days: if you want your Java app to look and feel like an OS X app you have to design the UI as an OS X UI, not just change the skin to an OS X skin and think it's good enough.

So, while it is certainly possible to make an app look cosmetically the same across Win and OS X and whatever other OS's LimeWire supports, it is not practical to have it behave like a native app across all OS's. In fact, that particular area of cross-platform coding is at least comprehensively simpler in a compiled language like C++, because Java hides as much about the underlying system as possible at runtime. For a C++ program, you'd have an API upon which your MVC-based UI sits, and you'd program a different UI for each platform. A lot more work than the Swing solution, but it ends up being much nicer for the user.

All this is in my own experience, which may not be 100% current regarding the Java UI elements these days, so take it as you see fit ...

[The Grimace]

Originally posted by jettredmont

However, the color and shape of the UI widgets does not entirely define the OS X experience. This is a large part why Java's "write once, run anywhere" promise is not as popular these days: if you want your Java app to look and feel like an OS X app you have to design the UI as an OS X UI, not just change the skin to an OS X skin and think it's good enough.


Excellent point, and one that I completely overlooked. And in this area, LimeWire actually does a pretty good job of emulating the over-all look and feel of the OS. A couple of versions back, the windows behaved like Windows; i.e. menu items attached to the window. In the more recent builds, the menu items are where they belong in a Mac app - in the menu bar at the top of the screen. And the items contained in said menus are where they should be; Preferences in the 'LimeWire' menu, file selections under 'File', etc. Compare with JavaDC; while there is the option to have the basic look to be 'MacOS adaptive', the over-all feel is not that of a standard Mac app.

Just my opinion, and subject to criticism.

(tig)
<edit> spelling error

[jayscheuerle]

Thanks! - j

[Grizelmac]

InstallAnywhere for one looks excellent on all platforms, including Mac OS X. As a cross-platform installer tool, it picks up whatever 'look' the system has.

You can try it here.
http://www.zerog.com/releases/enterprise

And yes, I work there.
ars