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MacRumors
Mar 30, 2012, 08:46 AM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/03/30/apple-clarifies-warranty-coverage-options-for-customers-in-european-union/)


Late last year, Apple was fined $1.2 million (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/12/27/apple-fined-1-2-million-in-italy-over-warranty-disclosure-issues/) by Italian regulators over its marketing of AppleCare extended warranty services for its products. The regulators ruled that Apple was not adequately disclosing standard two-year consumer protection coverage available under European Union laws. Apple last week lost its appeal (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/03/22/apple-loses-appeal-in-italian-warranty-disclosures-case/) of the ruling, although another follow-up hearing is scheduled for early May.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/03/apple_warranty_coverage_chart_eu.jpg


In an effort to inform consumers about the differences between Apple's standard warranty coverage, AppleCare, and EU consumer protection laws, Apple has posted information pages (http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/) on many of its localized sites for customers in European Union countries. Among the differences between Apple's standard warranty and the EU's statutory warranty requirements:

- Apple's warranty is good for one year, while EU protection lasts for two years.

- Apple's warranty covers defects that arise at any time during the warranty period. EU protection laws generally require consumers to prove that a given defect was present at the time of product delivery.

- Apple's warranty coverage applies only to Apple products. EU protection laws require sellers to support any products they sell, so the EU coverage would apply to both Apple-branded products and third-party products sold by Apple.

Apple's document also provides a number of links and clarifications to help consumers understand exactly what is covered by each warranty layer, enabling them to better determine whether AppleCare extended warranties might be a desirable addition to their purchases.

Article Link: Apple Clarifies Warranty Coverage Options for Customers in European Union (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/03/30/apple-clarifies-warranty-coverage-options-for-customers-in-european-union/)



Cromulent
Mar 30, 2012, 08:48 AM
Nice to see the clarification. EU law does have some advantages :).

i.mac
Mar 30, 2012, 08:49 AM
So there...

What is next?

Menel
Mar 30, 2012, 08:51 AM
Should be a none issue sounds like.

Who is going to wait >12 months to file a claim upon receiving a defective product.

bigjobby
Mar 30, 2012, 08:52 AM
They should have a section for the UK Sale of Goods Act which differs from the EU Consumer Law directive.

sevimli
Mar 30, 2012, 08:53 AM
If I buy my iPad from Germany, Greece or any other EU country, would Apple honor 2-year warranty in US?

Cromulent
Mar 30, 2012, 08:53 AM
If I buy my iPad from Germany, Greece or any other EU country, would Apple honor 2-year warranty in US?

Unlikely.

jonnyb
Mar 30, 2012, 08:54 AM
How on earth do you prove that a defect that manifests itself 18 months after you purchased the product, was present from the start? The EU two year thing seems useless.

charlieegan3
Mar 30, 2012, 08:54 AM
i wonder which other companies would get called up if they were also under such close critism. I bet there would be quite a few.

md63
Mar 30, 2012, 08:55 AM
This helps explain why products are more expensive in the EU than in US. Other than the VAT being included in the price. Longer warrantees and consumer protection is not free.

AustinIllini
Mar 30, 2012, 08:56 AM
This helps explain why products are more expensive in the EU than in US. Other than the VAT being included in the price. Longer warrantees and consumer protection is not free.

Europe regulation bothers me. Now it's just them saying "Hey! Look at us, big scary Apple! We're still relevant!" when any European country outside of Germany is totally hosed.

Stiksi
Mar 30, 2012, 08:57 AM
[/URL]Apple has posted [URL="http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/"]information pages (http://cdn.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif) on many of its localized sites for customers in European Union countries.

It is worth noting that this does not mean the pages have been modified to take into account national laws. For instance, the Finnish page differs quite a bit from the local consumer protection laws. So, the list may be on local Apple store pages but it only lists differences with the EU wide laws.

ThatsMeRight
Mar 30, 2012, 08:57 AM
- Apple's warranty covers defects that arise at any time during the warranty period. EU protection laws generally require consumers to prove that a given defect was present at the time of product delivery.
It's more like that customers have to prove that the defect isn't his or her fault after six months. You can do this by simply stating you used the device normally. You don't have to provide actual evidence.

Cromulent
Mar 30, 2012, 08:57 AM
How on earth do you prove that a defect that manifests itself 18 months after you purchased the product, was present from the start? The EU two year thing seems useless.

Seems to be an incorrect interpretation of the law.

http://whatconsumer.co.uk/eu-directive-sale-of-goods/

For UK consumers we also have the Sale of Goods act which entitles us to the following as well:

In reality, this European law, is no substitute for what we already have in the UK in the form of Sale of Goods Act 1979. Under this act, consumers in the UK have the statutory right to expect products which are of “satisfactory quality and fit for purpose”. It enables us to request a repair, replacement or even a refund at any time, bearing in mind the price you have paid and the expected lifetime of the product. In many cases, this may be longer than two years and could be anything up to six.

bbeagle
Mar 30, 2012, 08:58 AM
If I buy my iPad from Germany, Greece or any other EU country, would Apple honor 2-year warranty in US?

No.

You do understand that the EU warranty works like this: If you buy an iPad and it has a dead pixel after 23 months of use.... you must PROVE that that dead pixel was there on day 1.

There is no way to do this. The 2-year EU warranty is useless.

With AppleCare, if the dead pixel shows up after 23 months of use, you get a new iPad. AppleCare seems much better.

ThatsMeRight
Mar 30, 2012, 09:00 AM
This helps explain why products are more expensive in the EU than in US. Other than the VAT being included in the price. Longer warrantees and consumer protection is not free.
Apple has nothing to worry about if their products are of high quality.

----------

No.

You do understand that the EU warranty works like this: If you buy an iPad and it has a dead pixel after 23 months of use.... you must PROVE that that dead pixel was there on day 1.

There is no way to do this. The 2-year EU warranty is useless.

With AppleCare, if the dead pixel shows up after 23 months of use, you get a new iPad. AppleCare seems much better.
Not really, you don't have to provide real evidence. All you must do is state that you have used a device normally. If suddenly the device completely stops working after only 1,5 years (and it isn't your fault), than your product must still be replaced for free.

Again, you do not have to provide actual evidence.

-----------------------------------
And another misunderstanding: warranty laws are different in most EU member states. For example, in the Netherlands you have got the 'right of a proper product', which means you can actually still claim warranty up to five years after you bought a product (it depends on pricing, how it is advertised (high quality or not), etc.)

Oletros
Mar 30, 2012, 09:01 AM
No.
You do understand that the EU warranty works like this: If you buy an iPad and it has a dead pixel after 23 months of use.... you must PROVE that that dead pixel was there on day 1.


No, you don't have to prove that the defect existed on day one

jlc1978
Mar 30, 2012, 09:04 AM
If I buy my iPad from Germany, Greece or any other EU country, would Apple honor 2-year warranty in US?

Probably not - since it's not a 2 year Apple warranty but a local legal requirement. In the EU law case, the seller is responsible for complying with the law; so even if it was bought from pile they could require you to present it within the EU to exercise your rights under EU law.

A question - does the UK sale of goods (and other countries) provide for a pro-rated refund based on use? For example, a 5 year old TV that would have an expected life of say 6 years would get 1/6th of the purchase price back?

As a side note - many states have implied warranty laws that also require goods to function for a reasonable amount of time; the issue is of course is it worth suing over a $400 device?

gianpan
Mar 30, 2012, 09:05 AM
Apple has nothing to worry about if their products are of high quality.

----------


Not really, you don't have to provide real evidence. All you must do is state that you have used a device normally. If suddenly the device completely stops working after only 1,5 years (and it isn't your fault), than your product must still be replaced for free.

Again, you do not have to provide actual evidence.

the screen on my iPhone got a whole lot of dead pixels overnight while I had it in my drawer.
Of course no one cared about it and I was told that it comes with 1 year warranty. The only way I would ever get a free replacement is if I sued the hell out of them, which was not worth it. The telecom companies here (they distribute the iPhone and are in charge of service) don't even honor the 1 year warranty..

manu chao
Mar 30, 2012, 09:06 AM
They should have a section for the UK Sale of Goods Act which differs from the EU Consumer Law directive.

See footnote number 2.

----------

If I buy my iPad from Germany, Greece or any other EU country, would Apple honor 2-year warranty in US?
See footnote number 5.

louis.frankland
Mar 30, 2012, 09:09 AM
Seems to be an incorrect interpretation of the law.

http://whatconsumer.co.uk/eu-directive-sale-of-goods/

For UK consumers we also have the Sale of Goods act which entitles us to the following as well:

I have successfully used the "Sale of Goods act 1979 as amended" (and you quote that) and got iPhones replaced well out of warranty with no issue.

Most UK consumers dont realise this but Apple products are considered "premium" and therefore should last a considerable time (such as 5-6 years for iPhones). It works on the rule of it should last a "reasonable" time so if its odd that your Macbook Pro dies after 2 years, take it back and providing its been treated fairly - Apple or the retailer who sold it to you have the responsibility to pay for repairs or a replacement.

The agreement is not with the manufacturer, its with the retailer so make sure you chase the place you bought it from like PC World, Apple Retail, Amazon etc.

Its true they dont make them like they used to but this law helps if you quote it. It can be a fight with some staff as they dont know but all managers should.

miniroll32
Mar 30, 2012, 09:09 AM
Great document! This would never have been posted in the Jobs era.

djrod
Mar 30, 2012, 09:11 AM
No.

You do understand that the EU warranty works like this: If you buy an iPad and it has a dead pixel after 23 months of use.... you must PROVE that that dead pixel was there on day 1.

There is no way to do this. The 2-year EU warranty is useless.

With AppleCare, if the dead pixel shows up after 23 months of use, you get a new iPad. AppleCare seems much better.

You have to prove that the issue is not because of regular use but a manufacture defect.

jlc1978
Mar 30, 2012, 09:14 AM
No, you don't have to prove that the defect existed on day one

But the seller could argue that you damaged the device and hence are not entitled to a refund.

manu chao
Mar 30, 2012, 09:15 AM
How on earth do you prove that a defect that manifests itself 18 months after you purchased the product, was present from the start? The EU two year thing seems useless.
(1) You don't have to prove it within the first six months. Thus, if you want to read it like this, the EU directive guarantees a minimum of six months of warranty on any product sold inside the EU. Does not really change anything for most products and companies (because they over a longer warranty of their own) but it ensures that no company and no reseller is able to wriggle itself out of any warranty.

(2) How difficult it is to prove a defect later really depends on the kind of product and the kind of failure. And there is very likely a lot of case law already. I doubt it is completely useless.

Tali
Mar 30, 2012, 09:15 AM
It should be quite easy to prove. As long as it has no visible damage on the outside. The water sensors could be a real problem as there have been reports of them going off in humid surroundings. But other than that, you're pretty much home free.

Unless there is visible damage (or water) they can't do a whole lot, as there is no proof that you have not used the product according to the funny piece of paper stating that you shouldn't poke the iPad screen with something sharp.

manu chao
Mar 30, 2012, 09:19 AM
Great document! This would never have been posted in the Jobs era.

That document had to be posted because Apple lost a lawsuit. But as you say, Apple would never have lost a lawsuit in the Jobs era.

whooleytoo
Mar 30, 2012, 09:19 AM
Isn't the "defects present when customer takes delivery" bit quite vague?

Let's say I buy a Macbook Pro, which works fine for 13 months, then suddenly stops holding any charge whatsoever. One person could argue this defect is new, it wasn't present on delivery. Another could say the flaw (loose circuitry? Flaws in the battery material? A subtle bug in the power controller?) was present at delivery, it just didn't manifest itself immediately.

Which interpretation is correct? Or perhaps more accurately, which interpretation would hold up if it a lawsuit resulted? ;)

hafr
Mar 30, 2012, 09:19 AM
This helps explain why products are more expensive in the EU than in US. Other than the VAT being included in the price. Longer warrantees and consumer protection is not free.

How about Brazil then?

Oletros
Mar 30, 2012, 09:22 AM
But as you say, Apple would never have lost a lawsuit in the Jobs era.


What?

hafr
Mar 30, 2012, 09:22 AM
Europe regulation bothers me. Now it's just them saying "Hey! Look at us, big scary Apple! We're still relevant!" when any European country outside of Germany is totally hosed.

You mean Apple should always abide by american rules and regulations, no matter in which country they sell their products in?

zzebi
Mar 30, 2012, 09:28 AM
I don't think you get it guys.

The table is not about differences between Apple warranties and EU warranties. But in fact these warranties ALL apply in the same time for Apple products purchased in the EU.

Apple simply says that they have always respected the EU laws and never failed to honor the EU mandated warranties. Actually the Italian court also didn't fine Apple for not honoring the EU warranty but because they haven't clarified the difference between different warranty options for consumers.

So again:
When you buy an Apple product in the EU and it gets broken you have ALL of these options to consider.

- If you are sure that the product was shipped broken, then you can return it to the retailer within 2 years or can take it to the Apple for replacement within 1 year.

- If the product got defected in the first year, then you can take it to Apple and get it replaced within 1 year.

- If the product breaks after 1 year, you can take it to Apple for replacement in case you purchased an extra AppleCare warranty earlier.

******
All in all, it means that the default warranty coverage of Apple products is significantly BETTER than the warranty EU mandates because it has ADDITIONAL coverage beyond the mandate.

gnasher729
Mar 30, 2012, 09:29 AM
Should be a none issue sounds like.

Who is going to wait >12 months to file a claim upon receiving a defective product.

Anyone who doesn't know that the product is defective because the defect hasn't caused a problem yet. Let's say you get a MacBook Pro where the defect is that the screen hinges are much weaker than they should be, so the screen falls off after a year. The defect might be completely invisible to you up to that point.


Isn't the "defects present when customer takes delivery" bit quite vague?

Let's say I buy a Macbook Pro, which works fine for 13 months, then suddenly stops holding any charge whatsoever. One person could argue this defect is new, it wasn't present on delivery. Another could say the flaw (loose circuitry? Flaws in the battery material? A subtle bug in the power controller?) was present at delivery, it just didn't manifest itself immediately.

Which interpretation is correct? Or perhaps more accurately, which interpretation would hold up if it a lawsuit resulted? ;)

Simple logic: If you buy a MacBook Pro, it will stop working at some point for one of three reasons: Because of a defect that was present when you took delivery, or because a defect that you or someone else caused after taking delivery, or because of wear and tear. If nobody handled the MacBook Pro wrong after delivery, then it is wear and tear or a defect that was present when you took delivery. EU laws also say that wear and tear mustn't stop it from working too early (but that would depend on how much wear and tear you produce; I suppose it is possible to wear out a perfectly good MBP battery within 13 months if you try very hard).

Proving: Normally, in a civil lawsuit a judge would have to decide which side is more likely. However, for selling goods the rules are changed: Within six months, it is assumed that the defect was present unless the seller shows a good reason why it is otherwise. After six months, it is assumed that you broke it unless you show a good reason why it is otherwise.


(1) You don't have to prove it within the first six months. Thus, if you want to read it like this, the EU directive guarantees a minimum of six months of warranty on any product sold inside the EU. Does not really change anything for most products and companies (because they over a longer warranty of their own) but it ensures that no company and no reseller is able to wriggle itself out of any warranty.

Except if the seller goes bankrupt, and any rights you might have against the seller become worthless. I haven't found anything that would give you rights against the manufacturer in that case. Of course the seller warranty protects you if the manufacturer goes out of business.


A question - does the UK sale of goods (and other countries) provide for a pro-rated refund based on use? For example, a 5 year old TV that would have an expected life of say 6 years would get 1/6th of the purchase price back?

Yes, but the examples given were more along the lines of "if it breaks within two months and it would be too difficult or expensive to repair", you could get back your money minus a small amount for two months use. In your example, it would be very arguable that the first year of use is worth a lot more than the sixth year. My 2006 MacBook was a state of the art computer when I bought it, but now it is really quite slow, with much too little RAM.

HAL-00
Mar 30, 2012, 09:30 AM
Isn't the "defects present when customer takes delivery" bit quite vague?

Let's say I buy a Macbook Pro, which works fine for 13 months, then suddenly stops holding any charge whatsoever. One person could argue this defect is new, it wasn't present on delivery. Another could say the flaw (loose circuitry? Flaws in the battery material? A subtle bug in the power controller?) was present at delivery, it just didn't manifest itself immediately.

Which interpretation is correct? Or perhaps more accurately, which interpretation would hold up if it a lawsuit resulted? ;)

You don't actually get to argue anything. The way it works is the item in question is then sent to expert evaluation. The catch is that if the expert decides the defect was the consumer's fault, the consumer has to foot the bill.

Also it's worth noting: when the store screws you and you run into trouble, always contact the local consumer protection board. Sometimes a letter from the board is all it takes*.

* A store once sold me an iMac without the keyboard and tried to tell me that I would have to buy it extra. After a letter from the board they didn't even try to come up with a story but just plain gave me the keyboard.

hafr
Mar 30, 2012, 09:30 AM
No.

You do understand that the EU warranty works like this: If you buy an iPad and it has a dead pixel after 23 months of use.... you must PROVE that that dead pixel was there on day 1.

There is no way to do this. The 2-year EU warranty is useless.

With AppleCare, if the dead pixel shows up after 23 months of use, you get a new iPad. AppleCare seems much better.

Not completely correct. Say the screen goes completely black after 15 months. It clearly wasn't dead on arrival, but on the other hand an iPad's screen have a life expectancy that surpasses 15 months - which means you will win the case unless there are clear signs of you being to blame.

tdream
Mar 30, 2012, 09:33 AM
Great document! This would never have been posted in the Jobs era.

Búllshit document more like. The 2 year EU warranty covers anything that goes wrong with an electronic product at any time during the 2 years with standard usage. It's not restricted to the time of receipt of goods.

Who would wait 2 years to return a product that was defective to begin with? That makes zero sense.

People have been returning graphics cards and monitors that have broke down during normal usage over 12+ months. Apple trying to slither it's way out of this one.

writingdevil
Mar 30, 2012, 09:35 AM
I don't think you get it guys.

The table is not about differences between Apple warranties and EU warranties. But in fact these warranties ALL apply in the same time for Apple products purchased in the EU.

Apple simply says that they have always respected the EU laws and never failed to honor the EU mandated warranties. Actually the Italian court also didn't fine Apple for not honoring the EU warranty but because they haven't clarified the difference between different warranty options for consumers.

So again:
When you buy an Apple product in the EU and it gets broken you have ALL of these options to consider.

- If you are sure that the product was shipped broken, then you can return it to the retailer within 2 years or can take it to the Apple for replacement within 1 year.

- If the product got defected in the first year, then you can take it to Apple and get it replaced within 1 year.

- If the product breaks after 1 year, you can take it to Apple for replacement in case you purchased an extra AppleCare warranty earlier.

It's not clear to me what "broken" actually means in reality. Does it mean some part doesn't function, that the unit is usable but not fully functional, doesn't work at all? It may protect scams, but also seems like an easy way to game the system and the company depending on what "broken" actually means. It would be easy to have something that doesn't function, use the product for a year and a half, then go in and claim it is broken and get a free upgrade. Repeat yearly.

androiphone
Mar 30, 2012, 09:36 AM
Probably not - since it's not a 2 year Apple warranty but a local legal requirement. In the EU law case, the seller is responsible for complying with the law; so even if it was bought from pile they could require you to present it within the EU to exercise your rights under EU law.

A question - does the UK sale of goods (and other countries) provide for a pro-rated refund based on use? For example, a 5 year old TV that would have an expected life of say 6 years would get 1/6th of the purchase price back?

the sales of goods act only provisions a Repair or Replace not any refund.

these laws are to protect the consumer from defective products that are defective from the start, for example the defective nvidia chipsets in some macs they were faulty when made but could take a year or 2 to stop working, the iMac defective Hard drives - same thing, the iPhone home button on the iphone 3G.

plus, as you have read, you only make a claim to the SELLER meaning this does not in anyway concern or affect apple or apples own warranty.

Pressure
Mar 30, 2012, 09:39 AM
Isn't the "defects present when customer takes delivery" bit quite vague?

Let's say I buy a Macbook Pro, which works fine for 13 months, then suddenly stops holding any charge whatsoever. One person could argue this defect is new, it wasn't present on delivery. Another could say the flaw (loose circuitry? Flaws in the battery material? A subtle bug in the power controller?) was present at delivery, it just didn't manifest itself immediately.

Which interpretation is correct? Or perhaps more accurately, which interpretation would hold up if it a lawsuit resulted? ;)

The one who defends the consumer and makes sure he gets a new working unit or get it repaired for free.

The consumer is not an expert and does not have to prove anything.

You would never get a lawsuit going on any of these grounds but you are probably going through the consumer watchdogs who will contact Apple and explain how the law works in Europe, which usually ends with the consumer getting a new product or can get a full refund.

ThatsMeRight
Mar 30, 2012, 09:40 AM
the screen on my iPhone got a whole lot of dead pixels overnight while I had it in my drawer.
Of course no one cared about it and I was told that it comes with 1 year warranty. The only way I would ever get a free replacement is if I sued the hell out of them, which was not worth it. The telecom companies here (they distribute the iPhone and are in charge of service) don't even honor the 1 year warranty..
Where do you live and where did you buy your iPhone?

androiphone
Mar 30, 2012, 09:40 AM
It's not clear to me what "broken" actually means in reality. Does it mean some part doesn't function, that the unit is usable but not fully functional, doesn't work at all? It may protect scams, but also seems like an easy way to game the system and the company depending on what "broken" actually means. It would be easy to have something that doesn't function, use the product for a year and a half, then go in and claim it is broken and get a free upgrade. Repeat yearly.

see my post above, it covers you for an inherently faulty part/product, eg the inherently faulty nvidia chipsets a couple years ago, or the inherently faulty HDD in the iMacs, stuff like that, and remember you go to the seller only for your Repair or Replace, you don't get an option for a refund.

BobbyRond
Mar 30, 2012, 09:40 AM
And another misunderstanding: warranty laws are different in most EU member states. For example, in the Netherlands you have got the 'right of a proper product', which means you can actually still claim warranty up to five years after you bought a product (it depends on pricing, how it is advertised (high quality or not), etc.)

The amount of years really depends on the product. A washing machine should last for five years, a computer should last for two years. so the 'proper product'-rule is discarded after those two years. But even after those two years you can get a part of the repair costs refunded, but it's not completely free.

No.

You do understand that the EU warranty works like this: If you buy an iPad and it has a dead pixel after 23 months of use.... you must PROVE that that dead pixel was there on day 1.

There is no way to do this. The 2-year EU warranty is useless.

With AppleCare, if the dead pixel shows up after 23 months of use, you get a new iPad. AppleCare seems much better.

I agree that AppleCare is better, but it is something you need to pay for whereas the EU warranty is free.

Isn't the "defects present when customer takes delivery" bit quite vague?

Let's say I buy a Macbook Pro, which works fine for 13 months, then suddenly stops holding any charge whatsoever. One person could argue this defect is new, it wasn't present on delivery. Another could say the flaw (loose circuitry? Flaws in the battery material? A subtle bug in the power controller?) was present at delivery, it just didn't manifest itself immediately.

Which interpretation is correct? Or perhaps more accurately, which interpretation would hold up if it a lawsuit resulted? ;)

That's the problem with warranty. The customer does not want to pay money for repairs and the seller does not want that either. So you always have to battle it out. The consumer has quite some rights though, but it can be a bit of a stretch.

manu chao
Mar 30, 2012, 09:41 AM
Isn't the "defects present when customer takes delivery" bit quite vague?

Well, it is a law, since when have laws not been a bit vague?

Let's say I buy a Macbook Pro, which works fine for 13 months, then suddenly stops holding any charge whatsoever. One person could argue this defect is new, it wasn't present on delivery. Another could say the flaw (loose circuitry? Flaws in the battery material? A subtle bug in the power controller?) was present at delivery, it just didn't manifest itself immediately.

I think in this case if there are no traces of you having mishandled the battery (connected it to a charger with too high a voltage, no signs of a power surge, no traces mechanical interferences, no sign of freezing or overheating) and if the number of cycles is below the nominal limit, you could have a chance.

I essence you prove that you have not mishandled the device by demonstrating its optical and electrical state, and thus indirectly prove that the defect must have been there at the time of the sale.

The way such things work in the EU, is that there is first a EU directive, agreed upon on the EU level. Then there are national laws that implement that directive. This is not much different to, eg, WTO regulations. From thereon, case law might take over but governments might also publish more detailed regulations on how they think the law should be applied.

hafr
Mar 30, 2012, 09:41 AM
It's not clear to me what "broken" actually means in reality. Does it mean some part doesn't function, that the unit is usable but not fully functional, doesn't work at all? It may protect scams, but also seems like an easy way to game the system and the company depending on what "broken" actually means. It would be easy to have something that doesn't function, use the product for a year and a half, then go in and claim it is broken and get a free upgrade. Repeat yearly.

It's not as easy as you might think. People are constantly trying to (ab)use the system. Just google "how do you break a (product) without it showing it was your fault" or something and you'll find numerous forum threads where people have bought stuff and want to switch for a newer model for free... So they're controlling not only the individual cases, but everything around it.

pauliaK
Mar 30, 2012, 09:43 AM
No.

You do understand that the EU warranty works like this: If you buy an iPad and it has a dead pixel after 23 months of use.... you must PROVE that that dead pixel was there on day 1.

There is no way to do this. The 2-year EU warranty is useless.

With AppleCare, if the dead pixel shows up after 23 months of use, you get a new iPad. AppleCare seems much better.
Well, I'd say that a dead pixel is a proof itself that a display in this case had a manufacturing defect and thus didin't last as long as it supposed to. Because of this reason I'd be expecting to get a replacement or to have mine fixed. I'm from EU.

hafr
Mar 30, 2012, 09:48 AM
the sales of goods act only provisions a Repair or Replace not any refund.

these laws are to protect the consumer from defective products that are defective from the start, for example the defective nvidia chipsets in some macs they were faulty when made but could take a year or 2 to stop working, the iMac defective Hard drives - same thing, the iPhone home button on the iphone 3G.

plus, as you have read, you only make a claim to the SELLER meaning this does not in anyway concern or affect apple or apples own warranty.

Yes, but the seller can take it to Apple after having replaced it (even resellers are protected in the EU ;)). And if you've bought it in an Apple store or online, Apple is the seller.

----------

Well, I'd say that a dead pixel is a proof itself that a display in this case had a manufacturing defect and thus didin't last as long as it supposed to. Because of this reason I'd be expecting to get a replacement or to have mine fixed. I'm from EU.

A dead pixel isn't the same as a completely defective screen. It is definitely possible that dead pixels can be expected to appear long before a screens life expectancy runs out.

You will get a new phone, iPad or whatever if it's DOA (and within the six months), but I have no idea how long after the purchase a dead pixel would be enough for a replacement.

joeconvert
Mar 30, 2012, 09:59 AM
How on earth do you prove that a defect that manifests itself 18 months after you purchased the product, was present from the start? The EU two year thing seems useless.

No idea why this was voted down. The EU reg appears to be feel good BS as presented in the table. Assuming the table is accurate.

SilenceBe
Mar 30, 2012, 10:06 AM
Apple simply says that they have always respected the EU laws and never failed to honor the EU mandated warranties.
When something is broke after a year they will *always* point to the one year warranty. To get them comply with the law it always involve a consumer organisation or a threat with a lawsuit. There is a reason why different consumer organisations now bundled forces and imho rightfully. Apple is one of the few companies that doesn't comply with the law completely regarding warranties.

The fact how Apple handles warranty is even used as a marketing point by some shops why you should buy Apple products from them instead of buying them at Apple stores. The german Mediamarkt (which operates in a lot of European countries) explicitly advertises with it 2 year (and the funny thing it is really the law that mandates that) warranty in comparison with Apple. When I bought my new Ipad this week the salesperson even bragged about their 2 year warranty which I wouldn't get with Apple.

The whole way they explain the EU warranty is kind a shady and even borders to FUD. When your products gets defective 1,5 year after you bought it you are entitled to a repair or a replacement. The reason is that if something breaks it is because of a shady component that has been there from the beginning. As a consumer you don't need to literal proof that the defect was there from the beginning because common sense dictates that. It is only after you abused a product that you lose that right.

And no you aren't entitled to a "free" upgrade and it isn't so that when an item is repaired or replaced you are entitled to another 2 years of warranty at that point. When something breaks a company has the possibility to repair the item or in the situation it can't be repaired replaced by the same product or a product with the same possibilities.

And in a lot of countries the law even goes further as there are directives where the law expect that certain products have a certain life expectancy. A laptop shouldn't break after a year for example which from my POV seems very logical.

No idea why this was voted down.
I'm European and it sometimes really baffles me how somebody from more then 5000 km away tend to have to educate me how things are handled here or how things are going here. I think as a citizen I know the local laws and situations a bit better. Maybe that is the reason.

androiphone
Mar 30, 2012, 10:10 AM
Yes, but the seller can take it to Apple after having replaced it (even resellers are protected in the EU ;)). And if you've bought it in an Apple store or online, Apple is the seller.[COLOR="#808080"]



and apple in turn would go back to their suppliers, it's the company that ultimately made the faulty product that pays, just like the faulty nvidia chipsets http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10063844-37.html nvidia set aside the cash to fix it.

Aetles
Mar 30, 2012, 10:18 AM
How on earth do you prove that a defect that manifests itself 18 months after you purchased the product, was present from the start? The EU two year thing seems useless.

If something breaks after 18 months that shouldn't break under normal usage, then you can argue that this was defekt from the beginning. That's how this "warranty" usually works.

The seller then could accept your claim as reasonably or they could put up a fight and refuse.

gnasher729
Mar 30, 2012, 10:23 AM
The fact how Apple handles warranty is even used as a marketing point by some shops why you should buy Apple products from them instead of buying them at Apple stores. The german Mediamarkt (which operates in a lot of European countries) explicitly advertises with it 2 year (and the funny thing it is really the law that mandates that) warranty in comparison with Apple.

I am sure that Mediamarkt is offering something that is in excess of your legally mandated rights. Otherwise they would be so snowed under with Abmahnungen that they would lose the will to live. (Advertising that you do as the law requires you to do is a clear indication that you claim that your competitors don't - otherwise why would you mention it? That in turn is "unlauterer Wettbewerb" (unfair competition), so every lawyer in the country can send you a friendly letter asking you to stop your advertisements, together with a bill charging you 100 Euros or so).

ThatsMeRight
Mar 30, 2012, 10:26 AM
I don't think you get it guys.

The table is not about differences between Apple warranties and EU warranties. But in fact these warranties ALL apply in the same time for Apple products purchased in the EU.

Apple simply says that they have always respected the EU laws and never failed to honor the EU mandated warranties. Actually the Italian court also didn't fine Apple for not honoring the EU warranty but because they haven't clarified the difference between different warranty options for consumers.

So again:
When you buy an Apple product in the EU and it gets broken you have ALL of these options to consider.

- If you are sure that the product was shipped broken, then you can return it to the retailer within 2 years or can take it to the Apple for replacement within 1 year.

- If the product got defected in the first year, then you can take it to Apple and get it replaced within 1 year.

- If the product breaks after 1 year, you can take it to Apple for replacement in case you purchased an extra AppleCare warranty earlier.

******
All in all, it means that the default warranty coverage of Apple products is significantly BETTER than the warranty EU mandates because it has ADDITIONAL coverage beyond the mandate.
I don't think you get it. You are literally telling the Europeans here that they are incorrect about their own laws and that their own experiences are incorrect. You, however, thousands of kilometers away, are obviously correct.

----------

I am sure that Mediamarkt is offering something that is in excess of your legally mandated rights. Otherwise they would be so snowed under with Abmahnungen that they would lose the will to live. (Advertising that you do as the law requires you to do is a clear indication that you claim that your competitors don't - otherwise why would you mention it? That in turn is "unlauterer Wettbewerb" (unfair competition), so every lawyer in the country can send you a friendly letter asking you to stop your advertisements, together with a bill charging you 100 Euros or so).
I don't think he means advertising. I think he rather means that the MediaMarkt clearly states that you have two years of warranty.

If I visit the MediaMarkt website, click on a product and look under the section "Warranty" it indeed says two years of warranty.

Plutonius
Mar 30, 2012, 10:33 AM
Nothing is free. The warranty cost is factored into the product price. If the EU requirements end up costing Apple money, Apple will just raise the prices for the EU customers.

SilenceBe
Mar 30, 2012, 10:43 AM
I don't think he means advertising. I think he rather means that the MediaMarkt clearly states that you have two years of warranty.
No literally advertising with it in a local folder. They aren't the only one, we have a chain of stores which is called "switch".

They also advertise with their 2 years but don't explicitly name apple but are talking about "competitors who only give one year warranty". Off course the 2 year warranty is mentioned in a whole list of benefits.

Maybe it is against the law but here in Belgium it isn't uncommon in advertising to walk the fine line of... . In the past it was illegal to advertise with comparisons or naming your competitors, but the laws has relaxed a lot in that regards.

salacious
Mar 30, 2012, 10:48 AM
i do believe that the uk laptop electronics law states that laptops must be functional after 5 years of use otherwise the manufacturer must either repair, provide new, or offer money in value of the laptop..

it was on tv last year about it.. martin lewis did a cover of it..

gotta love the uk

androiphone
Mar 30, 2012, 10:51 AM
I don't think you get it guys.

The table is not about differences between Apple warranties and EU warranties. But in fact these warranties ALL apply in the same time for Apple products purchased in the EU.

Apple simply says that they have always respected the EU laws and never failed to honor the EU mandated warranties. Actually the Italian court also didn't fine Apple for not honoring the EU warranty but because they haven't clarified the difference between different warranty options for consumers.

So again:
When you buy an Apple product in the EU and it gets broken you have ALL of these options to consider.

- If you are sure that the product was shipped broken, then you can return it to the retailer within 2 years or can take it to the Apple for replacement within 1 year.

- If the product got defected in the first year, then you can take it to Apple and get it replaced within 1 year.

- If the product breaks after 1 year, you can take it to Apple for replacement in case you purchased an extra AppleCare warranty earlier.

******
All in all, it means that the default warranty coverage of Apple products is significantly BETTER than the warranty EU mandates because it has ADDITIONAL coverage beyond the mandate.

this is all true apart from the last 3 lines, I can't see how apple's products end up with a better warranty than any other items on the market.

Nothing is free. The warranty cost is factored into the product price. If the EU requirements end up costing Apple money, Apple will just raise the prices for the EU customers.

it won't cost apple any more as I have stated many times, why don't you open your eyes away from your tunnel vision as see that?
take the nvidia faulty chipsets as an example they were inherently faulty when the product was made this under EU law would be fully covered if it eventually died within 2 years, you would take the product back to where you bought it (say PC world) they then fix it for you, they claim the money from apple who in turn claim the money from nvidia for supplying them with faulty parts.
now apple did extend unusually did extend that to everyone in the world, but if they wanted to they could have just honoured it in the EU and left the US consumers high and dry.

take the faulty iPhone 3G home button as a 2nd example, one would expect that the home button to work free from defect for at least 2 years (ie the contract length), therefore you can go back to where you bought the iphone from and they will have to by law fix it,
over in the US you would have to use some lesser phone for the rest of your contract, but you seem like you would be fine with that.

peterbaby
Mar 30, 2012, 10:52 AM
If I buy my iPad from Germany, Greece or any other EU country, would Apple honor 2-year warranty in US?

No, but not exactly for the reason that were given: this EU law applies to any purchase made in a store in the EU; you do not have to be a resident (at any point) of the EU to benefit from this law.

HOWEVER, EU law compels the seller to provide this guarantee, not the manufacturer. So the seller would be your point of contact, meaning you would have to physically go back to where you bought the device to get it repaired (and even if afterwards the seller turns to Apple, that's "none of your business" :D).

Added to that:
Even if you were to buy it in a chain store with EU wide penetration (e.g. Mediamarkt), the guarantees are often valid only in one single country because each chain is a local legal entity. So if you bought your iPad in a Mediamarkt in Berlin, you couldn't bring it back to a Mediamarkt in Paris.

Bottom line, in your case, for prolonged guarantee...get an AppleCare plan ;)

androiphone
Mar 30, 2012, 10:59 AM
i do believe that the uk laptop electronics law states that laptops must be functional after 5 years of use otherwise the manufacturer must either repair, provide new, or offer money in value of the laptop..

it was on tv last year about it.. martin lewis did a cover of it..

gotta love the uk

yes the Sales Of Goods Act allows you to bring a claim within 6 years, but it has to be a reasonable fault, you would succeed claiming against a faulty motherboard or CPU as they are reasonably expected to last many many years (or forever) under proper use, but you would be very lucky to win for claiming against a hard drive breaking after 2 years as a hard drive everyone knows they do break.
again any and all claims go through the seller if they have shut down (eg Game and any consoles) you are up the creek.

peterbaby
Mar 30, 2012, 11:00 AM
Nothing is free. The warranty cost is factored into the product price. If the EU requirements end up costing Apple money, Apple will just raise the prices for the EU customers.

You're not gonna start the debate "free market Americans versus European socialists" are you? ;)

It is a moral choice to take the risk you are mentionning, to make sure consumers don't buy expensive crap that breaks down after a year.
If the manufacturer wants to increase the prices, he's free to do it; but the free market (yes, we still do have that :D) will ensure prices remain low.

EU law (which I don't always defend, believe me) in this case takes a simple approach: products are supposed to work for a reasonable amount of time, and 2 years for an expensive piece of hardware seems fair to them; on which I agree.

sevimli
Mar 30, 2012, 11:15 AM
No, but not exactly for the reason that were given: this EU law applies to any purchase made in a store in the EU; you do not have to be a resident (at any point) of the EU to benefit from this law.

HOWEVER, EU law compels the seller to provide this guarantee, not the manufacturer. So the seller would be your point of contact, meaning you would have to physically go back to where you bought the device to get it repaired (and even if afterwards the seller turns to Apple, that's "none of your business" :D).

Added to that:
Even if you were to buy it in a chain store with EU wide penetration (e.g. Mediamarkt), the guarantees are often valid only in one single country because each chain is a local legal entity. So if you bought your iPad in a Mediamarkt in Berlin, you couldn't bring it back to a Mediamarkt in Paris.

Bottom line, in your case, for prolonged guarantee...get an AppleCare plan ;)

Let me rephrase my question then :)

I have an iPad from Germany (from a genuine Apple Store), and after 15 month of purchasing it, I happen to be in US for business or pleasure etc. What happens if my iPad fails and I go in any US Apple Store? Will they decline me because of my original purchase location? :confused:

Shaun, UK
Mar 30, 2012, 11:19 AM
Apple's warranty covers defects that arise at any time during the warranty period. EU protection laws generally require consumers to prove that a given defect was present at the time of product delivery.

Once again this is very misleading from Apple. For example in the UK the law states that any product should be expected to last a reasonable amount of time depending what the product is, how much it cost, etc. This can be anything up to 6 years. There is absolutely no requirement to prove that the product had a defect at the time of purchase unless you are taking it back having just bought it recently.

I hope this has nothing to do with Apple hiring that guy from Dixons/PCWorld/Currys as they are well known for this sort of thing. I think we should at least expect a 2 year warranty as standard with Apple products now. I usually buy all my products from John Lewis these days as they do give you a free 2 year warranty as standard on all Apple products.

peterbaby
Mar 30, 2012, 11:50 AM
Let me rephrase my question then :)

I have an iPad from Germany (from a genuine Apple Store), and after 15 month of purchasing it, I happen to be in US for business or pleasure etc. What happens if my iPad fails and I go in any US Apple Store? Will they decline me because of my original purchase location? :confused:

Oh! So that's a special case indeed. I guess that depends on Apple's good will and its systems. You bought from a local German entity (Apple Retail GmbH or something like that), so what you are fully entitled to, is to return it to any German Apple Store.
Whether Apple (as the seller, not the manufacturer) allows you to return it in the US is actually a question someone else may have to answer. I guess if Apple's system linked to your serial number states "2y guarantee" it might work...but if they have a system that says "2y guarantee if returned in Germany", then good luck.

zzebi
Mar 30, 2012, 12:00 PM
When something is broke after a year they will *always* point to the one year warranty. To get them comply with the law it always involve a consumer organisation or a threat with a lawsuit. There is a reason why different consumer organisations now bundled forces and imho rightfully. Apple is one of the few companies that doesn't comply with the law completely regarding warranties.

I don't think you get it. You are literally telling the Europeans here that they are incorrect about their own laws and that their own experiences are incorrect. You, however, thousands of kilometers away, are obviously correct.[COLOR="#808080"]

You didn't read my post or just didn't understand it.
Show me a single case when Apple was sued because they didn't honor EU mandated warranty. You can't because it never happened. Apple was sued because (Google translation from French):

"Test-Procurement has been found significant problems relating to information provided by the manufacturer by Apple and its authorized distributors regarding the relationship between guaranteed legal, commercial warranty of one year applied by the manufacturer and any extended warranty "AppleCare Protection Plan" 2 or 3 years proposed by Apple.

...

Encouraged by previous Italian Test-Achats/Test-Aankoop has combined forces with 10 other consumer organizations (Consumentenbond the Netherlands, Italy Altroconsumo, OCU in Spain, Portugal at DECO, vzbv Germany, ULC Luxembourg, the EN Denmark, FK Poland, Slovenia and EKPI.ZO SPAs in Greece) to stop these illegal practices. Test-Achats/Test-Aankoop sent this March 12, 2012 a notice to Apple.

Test-Achats/Test-Aankoop demand that Apple should clearly every where mention is made of either contractual guarantee, all the elements that characterize the legal guarantee in force in Belgium and revise in depth the structure and length of the contract documents to be accessible and understandable to the average consumer."

Shaun, UK
Mar 30, 2012, 12:09 PM
Show me a single case when Apple was sued because they didn't honor EU mandated warranty. You can't because it never happened.

You cannot possibly know that.

zzebi
Mar 30, 2012, 12:16 PM
You cannot possibly know that.

We can only talk about facts. Until anyone comes up with a case we have nothing to talk about.
In fact Apple had two kinds of warranty troubles in the EU:

1) In 2010 they were forced to honor EU mandated warranties across the whole EU region (across-borders). So if someone purchases the product in one EU country, Apple has to provide warranty for it in another EU country as well.

2) This year they are sued because they haven't informed customers clearly enough about the difference between different warranty options.

whooleytoo
Mar 30, 2012, 12:32 PM
Simple logic: If you buy a MacBook Pro, it will stop working at some point for one of three reasons: Because of a defect that was present when you took delivery, or because a defect that you or someone else caused after taking delivery, or because of wear and tear. If nobody handled the MacBook Pro wrong after delivery, then it is wear and tear or a defect that was present when you took delivery. EU laws also say that wear and tear mustn't stop it from working too early (but that would depend on how much wear and tear you produce; I suppose it is possible to wear out a perfectly good MBP battery within 13 months if you try very hard).

Proving: Normally, in a civil lawsuit a judge would have to decide which side is more likely. However, for selling goods the rules are changed: Within six months, it is assumed that the defect was present unless the seller shows a good reason why it is otherwise. After six months, it is assumed that you broke it unless you show a good reason why it is otherwise.

Interesting, thanks! (And thanks to the others who replied also).

Let me rephrase my question then :)

I have an iPad from Germany (from a genuine Apple Store), and after 15 month of purchasing it, I happen to be in US for business or pleasure etc. What happens if my iPad fails and I go in any US Apple Store? Will they decline me because of my original purchase location? :confused:

My guess: Apple wouldn't be obliged to provide any (free) support/replacement in the US in that scenario. They might well do so voluntarily, for good will; or maybe do so for a small charge. But that would be their choice. Alternatively, you would have to return the device to the jurisdiction/market where it was bought for repair/replacement.

Shaun, UK
Mar 30, 2012, 12:35 PM
We can only talk about facts. Until anyone comes up with a case we have nothing to talk about.
In fact Apple had two kinds of warranty troubles in the EU:

1) In 2010 they were forced to honor EU mandated warranties across the whole EU region (across-borders). So if someone purchases the product in one EU country, Apple has to provide warranty for it in another EU country as well.

2) This year they are sued because they haven't informed customers clearly enough about the difference between different warranty options.

If I take Apple to the small claims court coz they won't fix my MBP nobody would ever know about it. If you know the law and walk into your local AppleStore with all the facts, I suspect they would simply fix the fault rather than risk legal action and the bad publicity. So to come back to your OP you cannot possibly say that there have never been any such cases.

mpkayeuk
Mar 30, 2012, 12:36 PM
any European country outside of Germany is totally hosed.

LOL. You watch too much Fox News. Actually, in the UK, we're not doing too bad thanks :P At least I am anyway.

zzebi
Mar 30, 2012, 12:48 PM
Wirelessly posted

We can only talk about facts. Until anyone comes up with a case we have nothing to talk about.
In fact Apple had two kinds of warranty troubles in the EU:

1) In 2010 they were forced to honor EU mandated warranties across the whole EU region (across-borders). So if someone purchases the product in one EU country, Apple has to provide warranty for it in another EU country as well.

2) This year they are sued because they haven't informed customers clearly enough about the difference between different warranty options.

If I take Apple to the small claims court coz they won't fix my MBP nobody would ever know about it. If you know the law and walk into your local AppleStore with all the facts, I suspect they would simply fix the fault rather than risk legal action and the bad publicity. So to come back to your OP you cannot possibly say that there have never been any such cases.

What you are saying is barely even an anecdotal evidence.
Here people are claiming that European masses protest Apple for not honoring their rightful, mandated warranties, while this is completely untrue. Noone is suing Apple for not honoring warranties.

mpkayeuk
Mar 30, 2012, 12:54 PM
You're not gonna start the debate "free market Americans versus European socialists" are you? ;)

It is a moral choice to take the risk you are mentionning, to make sure consumers don't buy expensive crap that breaks down after a year.
If the manufacturer wants to increase the prices, he's free to do it; but the free market (yes, we still do have that :D) will ensure prices remain low.

You take a rather one-sided view of this. Free market economics would also dictate that if product quality did not match the price asked for it then the market for that product would shrink. i.e. People only stand for buying expensive rubbish for a finite period. You can't argue that statutory warranties don't have a direct impact on supplier margins (and so by extension product pricing) because clearly they do.

----------

Once again this is very misleading from Apple. For example in the UK the law states that any product should be expected to last a reasonable amount of time depending what the product is, how much it cost, etc.

Not misleading at all. The EU Statutory Warranty Summary the article mentions was drafted in response to EU law. There is a footnote to specifically cover some EU nations that have longer claim periods, and the UK is one of them. So Apple are being perfectly open and clear.

During the claim period (see above), consumers may claim, among other things, free repair or replacement where a product does not correspond to the contract. Some EU member states, including Finland, Ireland, UK, Netherlands and Sweden, have a claim period that is longer than 2 years from date of delivery. Please contact your local European Consumer Centre for details of the position in your country.

kevinof
Mar 30, 2012, 12:58 PM
You obviously have zero understanding of European warranty law. It doesn't matter what breaks or when. Anything bought in the EU (almost all the EU) that breaks at any time during the first two years (doesn't matter if it arrived with the fault or it developed aferwards) is covered under the warranty. This warranty is with the seller of the product. If I by from Apple then Apple has to honor this warranty (nothing to do with Applecare or anything else). If I bought from another retailer then my warranty is with them. They have to either fix or exchange the product and then take it up with Apple to get their money back.

That's how it works. Doesn't matter if its an iphone, ipad, a car, a fridge, a taoster etc. Applies to all.

The basis of the law is that it must be of "merchantable quality". Ie its expected to last 2 years hence the across the board warranty.

I've used this warranty many times - Once with an apple product bought direct from Apple and they fixed it without charge after 15 months usage.


I don't think you get it guys.

...
So again:
When you buy an Apple product in the EU and it gets broken you have ALL of these options to consider.

- If you are sure that the product was shipped broken, then you can return it to the retailer within 2 years or can take it to the Apple for replacement within 1 year.

- If the product got defected in the first year, then you can take it to Apple and get it replaced within 1 year.

- If the product breaks after 1 year, you can take it to Apple for replacement in case you purchased an extra AppleCare warranty earlier.

******
All in all, it means that the default warranty coverage of Apple products is significantly BETTER than the warranty EU mandates because it has ADDITIONAL coverage beyond the mandate.

jlc1978
Mar 30, 2012, 12:58 PM
You're not gonna start the debate "free market Americans versus European socialists" are you? ;)

No - that's not really the economic issue at hand; this is TINSTAAFL case.

It is a moral choice to take the risk you are mentionning, to make sure consumers don't buy expensive crap that breaks down after a year.
If the manufacturer wants to increase the prices, he's free to do it; but the free market (yes, we still do have that :D) will ensure prices remain low.

True, but there's probably enough price elasticity for Apple products that they can raise prices to cover anticipated warranty costs. Companies generally factor anticipated warranty costs into the pricing, given the EU's 2 year consumer protection law I would be surprised if Apple didn't factor that into its pricing; and given the higher cost of Apple products in the EU (even beyond currency and VAT differences) it appears they have. Since its spread over a larger amount of products than when Apple care is sold the cost per product is lower but still a real additional cost.

EU law (which I don't always defend, believe me) in this case takes a simple approach: products are supposed to work for a reasonable amount of time, and 2 years for an expensive piece of hardware seems fair to them; on which I agree.

I agree it's a good thing; but you are paying for the added protection.

mpkayeuk
Mar 30, 2012, 01:01 PM
Búllshit document more like. The 2 year EU warranty covers anything that goes wrong with an electronic product at any time during the 2 years with standard usage. It's not restricted to the time of receipt of goods.

Don't forget that beyond 6 months from purchase under EU law the burden of proof that the product is defective lies with the consumer. EU law gives you very limited cover. In fact statutory rights in some EU member states give you far better coverage than the one size fits all EU law.

----------

You obviously have zero understanding of European warranty law. It doesn't matter what breaks or when. Anything bought in the EU (almost all the EU) that breaks at any time during the first two years (doesn't matter if it arrived with the fault or it developed aferwards) is covered under the warranty.

Please check your facts because what you state above is manifestly untrue. It is very important to note that beyond the first 6 months after purchase, under EU law, the consumer is responsible for proving the product was defective. In most cases, I think the average consumer would struggle to provide such proof.

zzebi
Mar 30, 2012, 01:04 PM
You obviously have zero understanding of European warranty law.

Even though you claim that you are right and I'm wrong, you have just argued exactly the same as what I wrote in my post.
Thanks for the confirmation.

jlc1978
Mar 30, 2012, 01:05 PM
Oh! So that's a special case indeed. I guess that depends on Apple's good will and its systems. You bought from a local German entity (Apple Retail GmbH or something like that), so what you are fully entitled to, is to return it to any German Apple Store.
Whether Apple (as the seller, not the manufacturer) allows you to return it in the US is actually a question someone else may have to answer. I guess if Apple's system linked to your serial number states "2y guarantee" it might work...but if they have a system that says "2y guarantee if returned in Germany", then good luck.

Everyone keeps using the term warranty for Apple's warranty and the EU consumer law, while the later is not a warranty but rather a set of legal obligations on the part of the seller and buyer. Apple has a 1 year warranty that gives the buyer certain protections, and EU law provides additional legal protections and remedies but it is not a warranty. That said, I'd be surprised if a US Apple store showed an EU purchased product as having a 2 year warranty.

Apple happens to provide a world - wide warranty but even that is not a requirement - they simply do it for whatever reason they thought was good. You could have a non-Apple product, go to the US arm of the manufacturer, and be denied a warranty claim even if it is still within the original warranty period offered by the manufacturer when you bought it.

mpkayeuk
Mar 30, 2012, 01:07 PM
Even though you claim that you are right and I'm wrong, you have just argued exactly the same as what I wrote in my post.
Thanks for the confirmation.

Except neither of you are correct!

cjmillsnun
Mar 30, 2012, 01:15 PM
No.

You do understand that the EU warranty works like this: If you buy an iPad and it has a dead pixel after 23 months of use.... you must PROVE that that dead pixel was there on day 1.

There is no way to do this. The 2-year EU warranty is useless.

With AppleCare, if the dead pixel shows up after 23 months of use, you get a new iPad. AppleCare seems much better.

Incorrect. It is Apple interpreting the laws incorrectly. It is for Apple to prove that the defect was not a manufacturing or inherent defect. The customer's consumer protection is far greater than Apple thinks!

ThatsMeRight
Mar 30, 2012, 01:21 PM
You didn't read my post or just didn't understand it.
Show me a single case when Apple was sued because they didn't honor EU mandated warranty. You can't because it never happened. Apple was sued because (Google translation from French):

"Test-Procurement has been found significant problems relating to information provided by the manufacturer by Apple and its authorized distributors regarding the relationship between guaranteed legal, commercial warranty of one year applied by the manufacturer and any extended warranty "AppleCare Protection Plan" 2 or 3 years proposed by Apple.

...

Encouraged by previous Italian Test-Achats/Test-Aankoop has combined forces with 10 other consumer organizations (Consumentenbond the Netherlands, Italy Altroconsumo, OCU in Spain, Portugal at DECO, vzbv Germany, ULC Luxembourg, the EN Denmark, FK Poland, Slovenia and EKPI.ZO SPAs in Greece) to stop these illegal practices. Test-Achats/Test-Aankoop sent this March 12, 2012 a notice to Apple.

Test-Achats/Test-Aankoop demand that Apple should clearly every where mention is made of either contractual guarantee, all the elements that characterize the legal guarantee in force in Belgium and revise in depth the structure and length of the contract documents to be accessible and understandable to the average consumer."
That case (with the 10 consumer organisations) is still going on.

And no, I can't show you a case where Apple was sued for not giving a two-year warranty period. I'm sorry, but Europeans aren't like "Oh my god, I stumbled in a store... I'm going to sue this company for $1 million." I can, however, give you enough examples of complaining Europeans.

A lot of people in Europe try to avoid dealing with Apple directly because Apple is known for its bad customer service (in Europe).

gnasher729
Mar 30, 2012, 01:34 PM
A lot of people in Europe try to avoid dealing with Apple directly because Apple is known for its bad customer service (in Europe).

Never heard of that. Ever. Most new Apple customers that I know don't believe you at first that they can go to an Apple store with a problem and someone will actually help them. That concept is to many computer users completely alien.

jorgo
Mar 30, 2012, 01:45 PM
It looks like many people here are just writing to keep their finger in good shape without actually knowing how things go through here in EU.
Twice in the last few years I had Apple products that proved to be defective after the (supposed) 1 year warranty period was over. Both times Apple repaired them, in both cases the faults happened well after the purchase
.
Telling them that if they wouldn't repair the faults I would have been forced to give a call to my lawyer and sue them for not respecting the EU laws was more than enough to shut them up.
They don't like to advertise it, but they just have to respect the law.

FYI I live in Rome, Italy

gnasher729
Mar 30, 2012, 01:45 PM
Let me rephrase my question then :)

I have an iPad from Germany (from a genuine Apple Store), and after 15 month of purchasing it, I happen to be in US for business or pleasure etc. What happens if my iPad fails and I go in any US Apple Store? Will they decline me because of my original purchase location? :confused:

It has nothing to do with the location. The US Apple Store is not the seller, and EU laws don't apply to them anyway, so they won't repair it as the seller. And Apple Inc., as the manufacturer, only gives one year manufacturer's warranty.

Similar if you buy an iPad in Germany at PCWorld (no idea if they have a branch there), and after 15 months you bring it to an Apple Store in Germany, they won't fix it. They are not the seller, PCWorld is. And manufacturer's warranty is one year only.

Now in both cases, I am quite sure that Apple employees have a policy of "keep store customers happy, unless they try to rip us off", and "keep Apple customers happy, unless they try to rip us off", and there is a chance that they might help you for free; worth trying in an emergency. But there would be no legal obligation.


Please check your facts because what you state above is manifestly untrue. It is very important to note that beyond the first 6 months after purchase, under EU law, the consumer is responsible for proving the product was defective. In most cases, I think the average consumer would struggle to provide such proof.

I read a bit through Apple's legal bits and pieces, and here is what they (Apple) say: You can take a non-working product to a store, they will look at it, and if they think it was defective when you received it they will fix it. So the easiest way to get proof is to get a store employee who agrees. If they don't think it was defective, well only then do you have to worry about proof. You might assume that they have some training where they balance the cost of the repair, the probability of being proven wrong anyway, and the benefits/disadvantages of having a happy/unhappy customer who will tell his friends how excellent/awful Apple's customer service is.

Of course if it is an Apple Store and an Apple product, the stores also act on behalf of the manufacturer, so if it is within twelve months and Apple Inc. has to fix it anyway, the store will do it.

CmdrLaForge
Mar 30, 2012, 01:55 PM
If I buy my iPad from Germany, Greece or any other EU country, would Apple honor 2-year warranty in US?

You can file your claim with the reseller in the EU.

Xano
Mar 30, 2012, 02:37 PM
How on earth do you prove that a defect that manifests itself 18 months after you purchased the product, was present from the start? The EU two year thing seems useless.

I can remember at least five defects, who appears later on my mac products ...

Plutonius
Mar 30, 2012, 02:41 PM
You're not gonna start the debate "free market Americans versus European socialists" are you? ;)

It is a moral choice to take the risk you are mentionning, to make sure consumers don't buy expensive crap that breaks down after a year.
If the manufacturer wants to increase the prices, he's free to do it; but the free market (yes, we still do have that :D) will ensure prices remain low.

EU law (which I don't always defend, believe me) in this case takes a simple approach: products are supposed to work for a reasonable amount of time, and 2 years for an expensive piece of hardware seems fair to them; on which I agree.

Not at all. Apple has to conform to the EU laws when selling to the EU. I'm just stating the fact that nothing is really free and the price reflects the warranty cost (i.e. don't complain when Apple products cost more in the EU).

Also, to the person above who said that Apple will get their money back through the suppliers, that's not true for the following two reasons.

Example - You get a few dead pixels after a year and 1/2.
1) The suppliers in the EU have to warranty their parts the same way Apple does but this doesn't apply to most of the places Apple buys it's parts (i.e. a Chinese display maker will never refund money to Apple for pixels that are reported dead after 1 1/2 years),
2) Even if the company repays Apple for the defective part, it does not change the fact that nothing is free. In the case of the display with the dead pixels, the display manufacturer will increase the cost of the display to cover the warranty. That increased price will be passed to Apple who will pass it to the consumer.

charlituna
Mar 30, 2012, 02:41 PM
If I buy my iPad from Germany, Greece or any other EU country, would Apple honor 2-year warranty in US?

If it is the Apple Care yes. If it is the EU warranty, then perhaps. IF you bought it from Apple. If you bought it from someone else, no. You have to go to that someone else for the EU thing.

That said, if Apple in the US covers it, you'd likely have to call Apple Care not go to a store. Because the in store systems probably don't have the needed overrides for coverage dates, but Apple Care likely does. HOWEVER you would have to prove that the issue was there when you took delivery of the item and that's basically impossible to do. If the issue was there it is almost always evident within a matter of days at the most. There's rarely a defect in production that takes 1-2 years to show up

Xano
Mar 30, 2012, 02:41 PM
My iPhone 4 home button get stuck after 18 months, take the phone to Vodafone and they substitute the device.

Excellent costumer service in Portugal and Spain.

ps-was Vodafone who assume the guarantee not Apple.

charlituna
Mar 30, 2012, 02:44 PM
How on earth do you prove that a defect that manifests itself 18 months after you purchased the product, was present from the start? The EU two year thing seems useless.

Exactly. It is useless. Because you can't prove it was there but you just couldn't see it. Most defects in production are evident right off.

Imagenow
Mar 30, 2012, 02:48 PM
I am the biggest Apple fan in Italy, however I totally agree with the court and Apple must respect the law. Everybody does. I've got my Mg Tf engine totally repaired after 1.5 years of purchase beacuse it has a faulting cooling system. LaCie does it. Samsung does it. Chevrolet does it. Kia motors, Lg, and so on...

Every country has its rules, and you must respect them if you want to make business, try to sell a gun in a shop here in Italy or let an italian wine maker sell his bottles to an 18 years old in the US :)

If we all have to respect those rules, why a company should be able avoid a law globally applied?

charlituna
Mar 30, 2012, 02:56 PM
Well, I'd say that a dead pixel is a proof itself that a display in this case had a manufacturing defect and thus didin't last as long as it supposed to. Because of this reason I'd be expecting to get a replacement or to have mine fixed. I'm from EU.

And I bet if you did a little research you'd find that a single dead pixel is within spec for such a display and as such isn't deemed a defect and so any non Apple seller would certainly try to use that to refuse to replace said item outside of their return policy or any legally required 'no questions asked' period. Particularly if it didn't turn up for over a year because then they could say that your use was such that it caused that pixel to burn out and thus wasn't a manufacturing defect etc.

I lived in Europe and the UK for a time and I've heard all kinds of such from 3rd party companies. Whereas I went to an Apple Store, pled my case and although they wouldn't give me a free replacement on, for example, my iPad they let me buy a replacement from the service bar as a favor and it was still a major discount off a new one (I work in the film industry so visuals are important in my equipment) and I was happy with that. And this was about 16 months after purchase (I had Apple Care, boss insists on it)

Imagenow
Mar 30, 2012, 02:57 PM
A lot of people in Europe try to avoid dealing with Apple directly because Apple is known for its bad customer service (in Europe).

Totally wrong.
When I first bought my macbook pro 17 years ago (g4) it completely dead after 3 weeks. I called the customer service monday morning. The next day I got it shipped by a carrier that came to my office for the pickup.
The g4 flied to holland same day.
Got repaired the next day and flown back to Italy.
Next day I got it in my office again.

Without going so back in the past.
Sept 2010 bought 2 imac 27". One had some dust behind the glass.
Got it shipped and changed in 5 days.
Not only. I shipped an imac with 1tb hard drive and got back a new one with 2tb. Of course at no extra costs.

Customer care here works.

charlituna
Mar 30, 2012, 03:23 PM
When something is broke after a year they will *always* point to the one year warranty.


Generally you can't prove that it broke because it was defective. Which is a key part to the EU laws in almost every country. Whether it was defective at delivery or in excess of acceptable use.



To get them comply with the law it always involve a consumer organisation or a threat with a lawsuit.

If it is a borderline issue they will comply to shut you up and get rid of you, all companies do this.


Apple is one of the few companies that doesn't comply with the law completely regarding warranties.

on the contrary, they 100% follow the law. To the letter. If the local law says that it is on you to prove you didn't do anything to the device, they stand by that. Again, most companies do this. Especially electronics ones.

----------

If something breaks after 18 months that shouldn't break under normal usage, then you can argue that this was defekt from the beginning. That's how this "warranty" usually works.

Exactly. But what is 'normal use' and how do you prove it.

Normal use for me with my iPad is up to 16 hours at a time, lots of video playback and recording. Pretty much non stop. If I'm not playing back a video for the stunt actors, I'm taping a rehearsal run. Or on a FaceTime chat with the other unit for the director to approve costume choices. Or writing up the call sheets for the next day, sending out script revisions etc.

But that's not normal use for most folks. The average person does probably 1/4 of my amount of use in a day. So which measure is the correct one.

----------

Once again this is very misleading from Apple. For example in the UK the law states that any product should be expected to last a reasonable amount of time depending what the product is, how much it cost, etc.

Who defines that period. I think that it is very reasonable that my iPhone should last 5 years. But someone else thinks that the 2 years of my contract is reasonable. Whose definition is the one used legally.

I think my computers should run for 10 years. Someone else says 3 years is plenty reasonable. Whose definition is the one used.

----------


Telling them that if they wouldn't repair the faults I would have been forced to give a call to my lawyer and sue them for not respecting the EU laws was more than enough to shut them up.

And THAT is likely why they did it. to shut you up. NOT because you could prove there was an actual defect in the items.

Apple's not stupid. They know that sometimes just getting you the hell out of the store happy is more important than the truth. Especially in this age of everyone having a Facebook page etc where you could go and blast them and make yourself look like a martyr being bullied by the big bad corporation.

----------

My iPhone 4 home button get stuck after 18 months, take the phone to Vodafone and they substitute the device.

Home buttons can break due to use. After all it's a mechanical part. so the damage was likely because of you, not the phone being bad. It could be argued that one year of getting mashed on a few dozen times a day is an acceptable use period which you were beyond.

Vodaphone has a vested interest in keeping you as a customer so they gave you a new phone. Classic CS move, could have happened with or without the whole EU law issue.

manu chao
Mar 30, 2012, 03:43 PM
Exactly. It is useless. Because you can't prove it was there but you just couldn't see it. Most defects in production are evident right off.

Well, just follow the court decisions on these matters in Germany and will realise that your idea of the how the law is applied in practice is incorrect.

eurisko
Mar 30, 2012, 05:10 PM
I have a old macbook from late 2007 that was repaired 3 times under EU law.
I had some initial problems when calling apple asking for suport but after that they repaired always the notebook. (top case cracked right to trackpad).

the first top case replacement in 2008 more or less 8 months after i bought it,
the second time arround 1 year and half after i bought it
and the third and the last time arround 2 years and 2 months after several letters with my goverment consumer agency and apple , to prove that the cracked case was a manufactering defect that wasn't solved by apple.

Till now the case is perfect!! and the computer is working perfectly ... why should i buy other, if i have consumer law that protects my rights.

No thanks apple care.

tdream
Mar 30, 2012, 05:40 PM
Don't forget that beyond 6 months from purchase under EU law the burden of proof that the product is defective lies with the consumer. EU law gives you very limited cover. In fact statutory rights in some EU member states give you far better coverage than the one size fits all EU law.

----------



Please check your facts because what you state above is manifestly untrue. It is very important to note that beyond the first 6 months after purchase, under EU law, the consumer is responsible for proving the product was defective. In most cases, I think the average consumer would struggle to provide such proof.

Do you know how I know? I live in the EU and I returned stuff after 12 months.

Shaun, UK
Mar 30, 2012, 06:30 PM
Who defines that period. I think that it is very reasonable that my iPhone should last 5 years. But someone else thinks that the 2 years of my contract is reasonable. Whose definition is the one used legally. I think my computers should run for 10 years. Someone else says 3 years is plenty reasonable. Whose definition is the one used.

There is some case law which you can use as a guideline but in the UK a Judge would decide what he/she considered to be reasonable. I've been involved in a few cases and it's not that complicated. Both sides put their case to a Judge in Chambers and the Judge decides what they think is reasonable. That's it. The Judge issues a judgement which is legally binding on both parties. There is no statute in place as to what is reasonable, it’s simply on a case by case basis.

Shaun, UK
Mar 30, 2012, 06:42 PM
Not misleading at all. The EU Statutory Warranty Summary the article mentions was drafted in response to EU law. There is a footnote to specifically cover some EU nations that have longer claim periods, and the UK is one of them. So Apple are being perfectly open and clear.

We don't have a common EU law related to statutory warranties. Some member states have signed the proposed 2 year statutory warranty and some member states have not. We are separate countries with our own laws on this issue. You cannot issue a blanket statement like this, it has to be on a country by country basis depending on what the law is in each country.

I don't know if you live in Europe but this sort of thing is a real hot potato here. It's seen as a battle between the rights of sovereign nations to determine their own laws versus the commonality of the European Parliament.

justperry
Mar 30, 2012, 11:50 PM
Totally wrong.
When I first bought my macbook pro 17 years ago (g4) it completely dead after 3 weeks. I called the customer service monday morning. The next day I got it shipped by a carrier that came to my office for the pickup.
The g4 flied to holland same day.
Got repaired the next day and flown back to Italy.
Next day I got it in my office again.

Without going so back in the past.
Sept 2010 bought 2 imac 27". One had some dust behind the glass.
Got it shipped and changed in 5 days.
Not only. I shipped an imac with 1tb hard drive and got back a new one with 2tb. Of course at no extra costs.

Customer care here works.

Huh, Mabook pro G4 from 1995.:confused:


Expensive gear should have a Warranty longer than 2 years dependable on usage and price in My opinion.

Example, an Apple Macbook Pro with a price tag of 2199 Euro should have a minimum warranty of 5 years of normal use.
Normal use could be easily calculated depending on how many hours the Laptop was used for, it should be possible to get that data out of the Laptop and should be around 7000 hours.

If I bought a "cheap" 400 Euro Dell the warranty should be maximum 2 years.
A Car should have a minimum of 5 years or dependable on the milage.(Excluding wear)
A wash machine 5 years or dependable on the shape which it is in.(Excluding wear)
Tv's 5-10 years dependable on price.

This way it would force manufactures to make better stuff and as an added bonus less would end up in the dump.

bernhart
Mar 31, 2012, 02:15 AM
-----------------------------------
And another misunderstanding: warranty laws are different in most EU member states. For example, in the Netherlands you have got the 'right of a proper product', which means you can actually still claim warranty up to five years after you bought a product (it depends on pricing, how it is advertised (high quality or not), etc.)

Yes, you can claim warranty, but Apple (like most companies) won't give you you anymore than their standard 1year. This is because dutch law is totaly unclear what a proper product is. So if you have a claim not covered, you do have to go to court, and in most cases, this will cost you more than the product claimed.

RDG
Mar 31, 2012, 03:37 AM
It is not that hard to understand.

The EU law simply requires good functionality under normal use for these products for a period of 24 months. This means if I drop my iPad after 18 months, it is not considered normal use and is therefore not covered. If, however, the iPad's battery is faulty after 18 months, or the device stops functioning altogether because of an internal electrical defect, you have full coverage.

As long as you didn't cause the problem yourself by using the iPad abnormally (as defined by EU law, as well), you are covered for 24 months after purchase. One of the many benefits of living in the EU, actual consumer protection laws.

Should Apple make a big deal out of things, you contact your nearest consumer representative who will take care of the rest for you.

hafr
Mar 31, 2012, 03:51 AM
LOL. You watch too much Fox News. Actually, in the UK, we're not doing too bad thanks :P At least I am anyway.

If he watches too much FOX News, you haven't watched enough news the past five years... ;)

aoifeee
Mar 31, 2012, 04:12 AM
I never knew EU protection was good for two years. So does this mean it applies to any American products you buy?

hafr
Mar 31, 2012, 04:17 AM
I never knew EU protection was good for two years. So does this mean it applies to any American products you buy?

Why would it not? This is valid for all consumer goods bought by a retailer located within the EU. Country of origin (consumer or product) has nothing to do with it.

SilenceBe
Mar 31, 2012, 04:47 AM
You didn't read my post or just didn't understand it.
Show me a single case when Apple was sued because they didn't honor EU mandated warranty.
The simple reason is that Apple never let it go through court because they know they will lose that case before it is has even began... . We also don't have things like "class action" suites on the scale that you sometimes see in the US so it is very difficult to find cases because they get under the radar easily.

But there are numerous examples which you can find on local apple boards of Apple stuff breaking after a year and they present you with a bill for repairing it. Even if the law grants you that repair under warranty !

When you deal directly with Apple or one of their APR you will always have to threat before you get your legal rights after a year.

This year they are sued because they haven't informed customers clearly enough about the difference between different warranty options.
That is so incorrect. I don't know how it is in other countries but here in Belgium Test Aankoop/Test Achat filled a complain with the courts because they are in clear violation of the law.

In Belgium - like a lot of European countries - you have a guaranteed warranty on products for 2 years and that been so for more then a decade. No FUD about "proving" things, just plain expectation that a product should be without problems for the first 2 years. Apple only gives out 1 year warranty.

Apple's Limited Warranty for iPad covers your iPad for one year.
http://support.apple.com/kb/index?page=servicefaq&geo=Belgium&product=ipad

EU laws are directives which you can view as the bare minimum local countries should implement. A lot of warranty laws go a bit further then that for example in the Netherlands or the UK.

bsolar
Mar 31, 2012, 04:52 AM
Exactly. It is useless. Because you can't prove it was there but you just couldn't see it. Most defects in production are evident right off.
The EU warranty law doesn't work that way, you don't need to prove anything.

The warranty is meant to cover normal usage within the first 2 years after the purchase. If you claim you used the device in a normal way and some issue became evident within the 2 years you can complain with the seller.

At that point is the seller who has the burden of proof about the issue. If he cannot find any evidence that the device was abused in some way, he has to comply with the warranty.

The rationale behind this is that any issue with the device becoming evident within 2 years of normal usage are presumed to originate from production defects, unless proved otherwise.

The defect doesn't need to be evident at the time of purchase, the device components are supposed have an expected lifetime of 2 full years of normal usage. If they show issues within this period they are presumed to have beed produced with some defect becoming apparent later on, and it's burden of the seller to prove otherwise (e.g. that the componed failed because of some kind of abuse).

Note that responsible for the warranty is Apple only if you bought the device directly from Apple. If you bought the device from some reseller he is responsible for this warranty instead.

dvader1961
Mar 31, 2012, 06:15 AM
Are they (Apple) really that stupid? Their statement on this warranty issue is not relevant. It's all about how they force consumers to pay for the second year. Now they argueing about content of the so-called EU warranty but there is no EU warranty. It's just a directive. It's up to nations within the EU to come with a law. For me , Applecare , as it stands now is dead. Apple has to come up with a warranty scheme that's fits in the EU directive and which goes far beyond what they are offering now. For example : like pc manufacturers , they could offer next-day solution on site.

christian_k
Mar 31, 2012, 06:23 AM
- Apple's warranty covers defects that arise at any time during the warranty period. EU protection laws generally require consumers to prove that a given defect was present at the time of product delivery.

This is wrong. The customer only has to prove this if the claim occurs more then 6 months after delivery. If the problem occurs during the first 6 months it is is assumed that the problem was caused before delivery if the seller does not prove the opposite. This usually only happens in obvious cases (water damage etc). Even after 6 months things are usually repaired for free without problems.

Christian

dvader1961
Mar 31, 2012, 06:43 AM
This is wrong. The customer only has to prove this if the problem occurs more then 6 months after delivery. If the problem occurs during the first 6 months it is is assumed that the problem was caused before delivery if the seller does not prove the opposite. This usually only happens in obvious cases (water damage etc).

Christian

Really, it has nothing to do with proving anything. Consumer organisations are just saying : adjust the 1 year limitation to 2 years. That's all. If Apple decides to go after their clients with this proof-thing, it's up to them. It won't help them.

mijail
Mar 31, 2012, 06:55 AM
For example : like pc manufacturers , they could offer next-day solution on site.

Are you sure you are not confusing subjects?

I never heard about PC manufacturers offering such a thing, at least when dealing with problems with Toshiba, HP and Samsung in a non-enterprise level. In fact HP's explanations on warranty fell pretty in line with what Apple is saying now, if I remember correctly.

Dell offered some kind of solution on-site only after some service contract, for enterprise level. And even then there were some levels of support to be choosen & paid for.

(all of this was in Spain, in case it matters to explain all the differences that are being reported here)

gnasher729
Mar 31, 2012, 07:12 AM
The warranty is meant to cover normal usage within the first 2 years after the purchase. If you claim you used the device in a normal way and some issue became evident within the 2 years you can complain with the seller.

At that point is the seller who has the burden of proof about the issue. If he cannot find any evidence that the device was abused in some way, he has to comply with the warranty.

What you claim is exactly the opposite of UK law. After six months, the presumption is that the damage is due to the buyer.


In Belgium - like a lot of European countries - you have a guaranteed warranty on products for 2 years and that been so for more then a decade. No FUD about "proving" things, just plain expectation that a product should be without problems for the first 2 years. Apple only gives out 1 year warranty.

Lots of things are claimed, and lots of people claiming lots of things are clueless. EU laws are about the seller. Apple's warranty is a manufacturer's warranty. They are completely independent. The EU laws affect the store where you happened to buy the product. If you buy a Mac at PCWorld, the EU says nothing at all about what warranty Apple should or should not give; but they say what PCWorld should do for you. The opposite is true when you buy a Canon printer at an Apple store; EU law says nothing about what warranty Canon should give you, but what the Apple store should do for you.

bsolar
Mar 31, 2012, 08:57 AM
What you claim is exactly the opposite of UK law. After six months, the presumption is that the damage is due to the buyer.
You're right and that's exactly what the EU directive states, but in the end it works like this: within 6 months the presumption is automatically on the production defect. After 6 months but within 2 years it's supposed to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

This doesn't mean that after 6 months the buyer has to show any kind of evidence, he only has to claim that he used the device in a normal way. If the seller refuses to comply with the warranty the buyer can bring him before a judge, and the judge almost always sides with the consumer unless the seller manages to bring evidence that the damage is due to the buyer's misuse.

This is true for most electronic device components excluding those subject to wear: e.g. if you claim the glass of your completely scratched iPhone was defective you have a much greater burden of proof. If some inaccessible internal components stops working the burden of proof on your side is basically non-existent.

dvader1961
Mar 31, 2012, 09:31 AM
Lots of things are claimed, and lots of people claiming lots of things are clueless. EU laws are about the seller. Apple's warranty is a manufacturer's warranty. They are completely independent. The EU laws affect the store where you happened to buy the product. If you buy a Mac at PCWorld, the EU says nothing at all about what warranty Apple should or should not give; but they say what PCWorld should do for you. The opposite is true when you buy a Canon printer at an Apple store; EU law says nothing about what warranty Canon should give you, but what the Apple store should do for you.


Sure. But Apple - Online and in their stores - is the seller. In their statement they not adressing the real problem. They are just glorifying Applecare which is just an extented warranty scheme. Also it is not a EU Law as such, it's a directive and consequently lot's of European countries took this up in to a local law. Now - and i am repeating myself - what consumer organisations want is an non-Applecare adjustment ( for their stores/online) from 1 yr to 2yr. Surely Apple can use the directive with this >6 months proof nonsens to dodge warranty claims but as for now this is not an issue. They can not win this because it would in fact invalid the whole European warranty system.

gnasher729
Mar 31, 2012, 10:46 AM
Sure. But Apple - Online and in their stores - is the seller. In their statement they not adressing the real problem. They are just glorifying Applecare which is just an extented warranty scheme. Also it is not a EU Law as such, it's a directive and consequently lot's of European countries took this up in to a local law. Now - and i am repeating myself - what consumer organisations want is an non-Applecare adjustment ( for their stores/online) from 1 yr to 2yr. Surely Apple can use the directive with this >6 months proof nonsens to dodge warranty claims but as for now this is not an issue. They can not win this because it would in fact invalid the whole European warranty system.

What don't you understand about Apple's 1 year warranty being a _manufacturer_ warranty, which has nothing whatsoever to do with any EU laws? And Apple isn't "glorifying" anything, they inform you about the rights against the seller, whether the seller is Apple or anyone else, as specified by laws in individual countries, about your rights against Apple as the manufacturer, which Apple gives you voluntarily, and about the rights that you will get by buying AppleCare. As a result, you can make an informed decision whether buying AppleCare gives you value for money or not. And informing you about these rights is _exactly_ what a court in Italy has told Apple to do.


You're right and that's exactly what the EU directive states, but in the end it works like this: within 6 months the presumption is automatically on the production defect. After 6 months but within 2 years it's supposed to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

No, after six months the presumption is reversed. Normally in a civil case a judge would decide according to which side is more likely to be right, even if it is just a tiny bit more likely (and he can't refuse the decision, if both sides are exactly equally likely to be right). But here there is a presumption, which means you some evidence to override the presumption. In the first six months you would win if there is no clear evidence either way, after that you would lose.

The "two years" is also not the same in each country. Italy says "you have to report the problem within 26 months", which probably is meant to handle problems within two years + two months to report it. UK says "a reasonable amount of time", which depends on the product and what a customer could reasonably expect for that kind of product.

hafr
Mar 31, 2012, 12:20 PM
No, after six months the presumption is reversed. Normally in a civil case a judge would decide according to which side is more likely to be right, even if it is just a tiny bit more likely (and he can't refuse the decision, if both sides are exactly equally likely to be right). But here there is a presumption, which means you some evidence to override the presumption. In the first six months you would win if there is no clear evidence either way, after that you would lose.
These two statements are definitely not true in all EU member states, which country/ies are you talking about?

bsolar
Mar 31, 2012, 12:32 PM
No, after six months the presumption is reversed. Normally in a civil case a judge would decide according to which side is more likely to be right, even if it is just a tiny bit more likely (and he can't refuse the decision, if both sides are exactly equally likely to be right). But here there is a presumption, which means you some evidence to override the presumption. In the first six months you would win if there is no clear evidence either way, after that you would lose.
A device which fails within the 2 years either was defective or was damaged due to abuse. On one side you have the buyer which claims that he used the device in a normal way before it stopped working correctly. On the other you have the seller which claims that the device stopped working correctly due to some sort of abuse by the buyer.

Since it's usually very easy to provide evidence for any kind of abuse on the device, a judge will almost always side with the buyer unless the seller can provide this evidence. Without clear evidence it's much more plausible that there was some defect, given that abuse would have left pretty clear signs.

That's why the vast majority of claims which end before a judge see the buyer win, even after the 6 months period. The cases in which the buyer loses are usually because he's trying to scam the seller (it happens sometimes) or on less clear issues like parts subject to wear, where "normal usage" and the expected wear for the lifetime of the device need to be evaluated more in detail.

Imagenow
Mar 31, 2012, 05:18 PM
Huh, Mabook pro G4 from 1995.:confused:


Hey dude that was a missing type... 17" (inches) - bought years ago (2004 if I remember).
That wasn't the age of the laptop :)

fz750
Apr 1, 2012, 03:09 PM
Europe regulation bothers me. Now it's just them saying "Hey! Look at us, big scary Apple! We're still relevant!" when any European country outside of Germany is totally hosed.

Take a look in that mirror of debt...

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Makes all the debt in Europe look pretty insignificant doesn't it...

gnasher729
Apr 2, 2012, 06:58 AM
These two statements are definitely not true in all EU member states, which country/ies are you talking about?

I wouldn't say "definitely not true". I will admit "people have made loud claims", but I checked Germany, UK, and Italy, and they were wrong. Since for example in the UK it is just a tiny little sentence in the middle of lengthy legalese, it is easy to miss. And PR articles, even written by the EU, don't count.

mpkayeuk
Apr 4, 2012, 03:44 PM
Do you know how I know? I live in the EU and I returned stuff after 12 months.

Yes, I also live in the EU and am stating absolute fact. Did you consider that the reason they accepted your return was because they wanted to offer good customer service, or perhaps that they themselves were ignorant of how EU directives are applied?

Don't mislead others on a matter of EU law that you clearly aren't fully cognisant of.

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We don't have a common EU law related to statutory warranties. Some member states have signed the proposed 2 year statutory warranty and some member states have not. We are separate countries with our own laws on this issue. You cannot issue a blanket statement like this, it has to be on a country by country basis depending on what the law is in each country.

I don't know if you live in Europe but this sort of thing is a real hot potato here. It's seen as a battle between the rights of sovereign nations to determine their own laws versus the commonality of the European Parliament.

I'm sorry, but once again as in many instances in this thread, this is misleading rubbish. All EU member states are bound by EU law and this law is no exception (this is a directive that all EU member states should have covered by their own local laws). There is no question over a member state signing up to a law or not, that's not how the European Union works. If you are a member the directive applies, end of story.

In the UK this directive is covered by the Sale of Goods Act as that already provides broader coverage in terms of warranting a product than the directive mandates.

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A device which fails within the 2 years either was defective or was damaged due to abuse. On one side you have the buyer which claims that he used the device in a normal way before it stopped working correctly. On the other you have the seller which claims that the device stopped working correctly due to some sort of abuse by the buyer.

Since it's usually very easy to provide evidence for any kind of abuse on the device, a judge will almost always side with the buyer unless the seller can provide this evidence. Without clear evidence it's much more plausible that there was some defect, given that abuse would have left pretty clear signs.

That's why the vast majority of claims which end before a judge see the buyer win, even after the 6 months period. The cases in which the buyer loses are usually because he's trying to scam the seller (it happens sometimes) or on less clear issues like parts subject to wear, where "normal usage" and the expected wear for the lifetime of the device need to be evaluated more in detail.

After 6 months, the burden of proof is on the buyer, it really is quite simple. The fact that the majority of claims seen by a judge fall in favour of the buyer does not change that. In any case, can you reference that claim? How do you know the majority of claims that fall before a judge are found in favour of the buyer?

gianpan
Apr 8, 2012, 05:54 AM
Where do you live and where did you buy your iPhone?

Greece and I bought it from Vodafone...
I regret it because of the bad service. Vodafone has a another company for service (V-Service). You take your phone to a vodafone store then they send it to V-service, they keep your phone for one month then they tell you it is water damaged and out of warranty and ask for 200E to get a replacement. Then Vodafone steps up and offers to pay 100E for you (what a lovely company...) so you end up giving 100E to get a refurbished iPhone. (and no extra warranty)

That's when you are within the first year. After that you are totally screwed!

Shaun, UK
Apr 10, 2012, 01:16 PM
I'm sorry, but once again as in many instances in this thread, this is misleading rubbish. All EU member states are bound by EU law and this law is no exception (this is a directive that all EU member states should have covered by their own local laws). There is no question over a member state signing up to a law or not, that's not how the European Union works. If you are a member the directive applies, end of story.

In the UK this directive is covered by the Sale of Goods Act as that already provides broader coverage in terms of warranting a product than the directive mandates.[COLOR="#808080"]

You simply don't understand the way the EU works. EU laws are the result of EU treaties whereby countries agree to cede their national law to EU law in a range of agreed areas.

This is totally different to an EU Directive which is not a law - it's a suggestion put forward by the European Parliament to which member states can sign up or not as they wish. The idea is to try and make the national law in as many countries as possible standard without having an EU wide law which would require a treaty with everyone having to agree.

In this case there is no EU law pertaining to this subject. The directive is just a suggestion. 11 countries adopted the suggestion and incorporated it into their own national law. The UK has chosen not to adopt this suggestion and not to change our existing national laws.

"If you're a member the directive applies" is complete nonsense. The UK has a number of opt-outs from EU laws simply because we negotiated those opt-outs during various treaty negotiations.

marcoloveslaure
Jun 16, 2012, 05:27 PM
Hi all, I experienced Apple quality. My Ipod never fell, nor was exposed to heat and each 2 months it loses all my library as the 20MB file that reads it, gets damaged suddenly. The battery doesn't last much, then.
The 2 years is more than justified!
PS: I live in Europe

Jon Boy
Sep 12, 2012, 03:59 AM
Actually guys look here, http://www.findlaw.co.uk/law/consumer/sales_of_goods/after_you_buy/22216.html you get up to 6 years to make a claim. Yes i have used it before. :)

kjbarth
Mar 29, 2013, 01:40 PM
My graphics card in my 2011 iMac stopped working so I took it in for service under the "EU 2 year warranty" law. At first Apple support simply took the line that it was out of warranty.

So I had to followup with Apple's Consumer Relations department. They got a senior guy in an Apple European support center to help me towards resolution. He was very helpful, yet he really couldn't do anything about it himself except to tell me to call back into the Apple Store where I left it and as to speak to the line manager to discuss why this should be covered on the EU 2 year rule.

I finally got the Apple Store manager to call me and he heard my story and said he had to speak to his legal department. He called back and said that they would cover the repair, but only because I had opened a case with them when I bought the system to report a problem with the graphics card, and therefore they considered that there was "reasonable evidence that the problem had originally been there when the product was delivered to me in the first place", and therefore then covered by this EU law.

I was just lucky that I opened that case way back when, as it provided the proof I needed for them to agree it.

Many in this thread have said that you can get your kit fixed via this EU law (or UK consumer law), but I tell you now that they will fight you for it.

Mind you, they were all very nice about trying to get out of it. ;-) (more fairly, they all followed through and called back as promised and helped me get to the point where they agreed the coverage).

I suppose you could take them to small claims court, and you may very well be able to get it covered that way. But certainly from my direct experience with 5 or 6 Apple employees in differing parts of the Apple support "world", their position was that in order to be covered by the EU 2 year law, the customer must PROVE that the problem existed from the beginning (perhaps this means the problem was there within the first six months).

Without my previous case having been opened, I was certainly given the strong impression that I was not going to be able to PROVE that the problem existed from the beginning, and that they would not cover the fix.

So, in my opinion, you will not get Apple to cover your kit when it goes bad after the 12 month perioed without a fight. Without my case haveing been luckily previously opend from the beginning, I fully expect that I would have had to get small claims court involved, at which point who knows how it would have turned out.

So if it is a large repair bill, it is probably worht fighting for; otherwise it may not be worth your time to pursue it... (unfortunately)...

-YMMV-

gnasher729
Mar 29, 2013, 01:50 PM
I finally got the Apple Store manager to call me and he heard my story and said he had to speak to his legal department. He called back and said that they would cover the repair, but only because I had opened a case with them when I bought the system to report a problem with the graphics card, and therefore they considered that there was "reasonable evidence that the problem had originally been there when the product was delivered to me in the first place", and therefore then covered by this EU law.

Exactly as the law says. First six months, they have to prove it wasn't your fault. After that, you have to prove it was their fault. You did.

dragje
Feb 8, 2014, 02:35 AM
Tim Cook knowledge about Apple products is admirable without doubt, but his knowledge about Europe can be compared with the knowledge of an infant. Besides the fact that using Europe as a metaphor is kind of ridiculous in many perspectives it's also painful when used in a good (America) versus flawed (Europe) comparison.

Yes, there is much to say about Europe, even bad things, but seriously, is it wise to start such a comparison? Because, when making a comparison one should bring out a balanced with some nuance in order to make it believable, else it's nothing more the a one sided view and therefor a comparison that simply doesn't makes sense; Cook's story in a nutshell.

If it wasn't for Europe, Apple users in Europe would be less "protected" then Apple users outside of Europe. The EU is protecting consumers of any brand against flaws in regulations written by large companies that includes Apple (source: http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/01/european-union-requesting-examinations-of-apples-warranty-advertising-practices/ ) and the EU makes sure Apple is playing a fair game in the world of telecom marketing (source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/european-regulators-scrutinise-apples-demands-on-networks-selling-iphone-and-ipad-8546243.html ). In 2011 Italian regulators fined Apple $1.2 million over its marketing of AppleCare extended warranty services for its products. The regulators ruled that Apple was not adequately disclosing standard two-year consumer protection coverage available under European Union laws. Apple responded with a lawsuit but lost the case (source: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1351100 )

In short, thanks to the EU itself Apple consumers getting better value from Apple products then they would get from Apple itself and thanks to the EU Apple is bound to play a fair competition. So Cook, if you would like to dramatize your comparison between Europe (filled with flaws and lack of unity) with that of the VS (being solid and just good) you should tell the whole story and not just one side of it. The truth is, if the EU regulations would be the norm worldwide then Apple consumers and (!) the market itself would be better off, better work circumstances for Apple employees, better guarantees on Apple products, and a more fair play towards other brands. Facts.

dragje
Feb 8, 2014, 02:50 AM
Normally in a civil case a judge would decide according to which side is more likely to be right, even if it is just a tiny bit more likely (and he can't refuse the decision, if both sides are exactly equally likely to be right).

Even tough this statement is arbitrary it's not a civil case to begin with.
And the two years warrantee does count for European countries listen within the European Union. At least any consumer can use the italian verdict as a valid argument. In Holland the same ruling counts.

dragje
Feb 8, 2014, 03:06 AM
Never heard of that. Ever. Most new Apple customers that I know don't believe you at first that they can go to an Apple store with a problem and someone will actually help them. That concept is to many computer users completely alien.

I did, and it's true.

I'm a Apple user for decades and I welcomed the new Apple store in Amsterdam the Netherlands where I live. But unfortunately the average knowledge of most "genius" help-desk employees is very limited to put it mildly. It's great when you have simple issues with Apple products, but as soon it bypass the level of "simple" the problems start to kick in. Been busy with several employees for over an hour, two when counting the waiting time, and went home with no solution to my problem. It was not a big problem but rather an annoying one, my iTunes kept telling me it couldn't update the program's I bought, it took me (at the end) several hours to install everything again after formatting the hard drive. Several hours because not all programs that I bought came from Apple, and then you have the several settings you can't restore with a simple click on a button.

Don't get me wrong but Genius Apple Employees have an average knowledge about Apple products and the Apple phone help desk situated in Ireland is so so. Either you get an eager Apple employee that can't start helping you before you hand over registrations, proof that you have bought a Apple Care plan or you get someone whom is at least open for helping you a bit further despite if you have an AppleCare license or not.

There are many improvements I can think of when it comes to services from Apple. But, also fair, I must state that Apple does provide free courses for beginners, for using the iMac towards a base knowledge about video editing or dealing with pages. For that I do applause.