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azpc
Apr 5, 2012, 03:48 PM
So far Mountain Lion looks like a nice improvement. I like many of the new features. However, some features carried over from Lion need implementation improvements.

Apple is so close to having a really fantastic operating system. The Mac is on the verge of making huge market share gains. Unfortunately, a few easily fixed issues are blocking wider acceptance.


Versions - Great Idea, implementation needs refinement


Versions needs to provide users with an option to change default behavior for specific apps. Versions can be useful in Pages or Numbers but it can be a real irritant in Preview. An option to change Versions default behavior for a specific app could be placed inside of Get Info. My clients and I would love to have the ability to turn off versions for several apps.


Restore Save As along with Save A Version - Save As did two things easily, new name, new location. The new system of Duplicate, Save A Version and Export is not as easy or useful as Save As. Windows switchers in particular are irate over the loss of Save As.

Resume – Good Idea, implementation needs refinement

Resume needs to provide users with an option to change default behavior for specific apps. Resume can be useful in Safari but it can be a real irritant in Preview or Quicktime. An option to change Resume's default behavior for a specific app could be placed inside of Get Info. Clients will be satisfied with the ability to turn off Resume. (What if payroll was the last document open)?

Please See:

http://www.reghardware.com/2011/09/07/apple_mac_os_x_lion_the_nanny_os/


Automatic Application Termination - modify implementation

Automatic Termination needs an option to change system wide default behavior. Automatic Application Termination might be useful for some users but it can be a real irritant for experienced users. Clients frequently open up programs such as Grab and Preview and switch to them as necessary via the dock or command tab. These programs frequently don't have an open window, however, they are used for a minute or two several times an hour.

When the application automatically terminates without user permission, it is the same to the user as an application crash!

Please See http://vimeo.com/34711608


Reopen Windows Next Time

Option in System Preferences to eliminate “reopen windows next time”. (Reduce the frustration of having to recheck this option each time the computer is restarted). It would be nice if Mountain Lion would allow users to permanently set preferences so the question never appeared.

AutoSave

Initially, my clients and I thought this feature was going to be great. However, we have discovered that we work with a lot of files that we don't always want to save. PDF files, experimental photo modifications, trial letters etc. We really don't want all of these extra files cluttering up our computers. AutoSave needs to provide users with an option to change the default behavior for specific apps. AutoSave can be useful in Pages or Numbers but it can be a real irritant in Preview. An option
to change AutoSave default behavior for a specific app could be placed inside of Get Info. Clients will be satisfied with the ability to control AutoSave.


Restore option for colored icons in finder sidebar - Colored icons really help in providing tech support to clients.


Finder

Restore the option at the bottom of the finder window to show number of files selected and the Space available on the hard disk.


Restore Quick Look – zoom in on pdfs.


Columns that resize properly in “Kind View".


Optional restoration of scroll arrows

This is a major issue when the computer requires small steady input - photo and video editing, spreadsheets, databases etc.

Please see https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3252617?start=0&tstart=0

Mouse Speed & Acceleration

Need an option to set both mouse pointer speed and acceleration curve. (Most frequent complaint I receive from former Windows users).


Green Zoom Button Behavior

Option in System Preferences to set Green Zoom button to Window Maximize - (Window fills screen except for Dock). As it stands now it is up to each developer how this function works therefore the behavior is very inconsistent.
Second most frequent complaint I receive from Windows switchers.

Client Comment:

"I have looked at the iMac carefully, as my kids have one at home. Even though I'd like to switch to Apple, I find two issues with the Mac unacceptable for my purposes .

The inability to fully maximize a program is irritating, as I am used to doing that regularly. Also the cursor movements with the mouse are too jerky. Unfortunately these 2 features will force me to continue down the Microsoft OS path."



rkaufmann87
Apr 5, 2012, 04:03 PM
www.apple.com/feedback

chrono1081
Apr 5, 2012, 04:19 PM
www.apple.com/feedback

You beat me to it!

OP Apple doesn't read Macrumors. You'll have to submit to the link the previous poster posted.

jackeill
Apr 5, 2012, 06:25 PM
Mouse acceleration is way better in Lion than it was in SL. And in SL it was better than in Leopard. I'm happy now.

Maximizing the windows... well, now more and more apps have full-screen option, so I guess that's it.

bedifferent
Apr 5, 2012, 07:02 PM
10.5/6 Expose and Spaces, "Mission Control" is a failure.

Less iOS integration, it's either all of nothing Apple, these iOS features slowly incorporated into a desktop system feel out of place.

OpenGL [full] 4.0+ support

More efficiency and streamlining, less resource hogging.

Improved Finder HFS+

Retina display support (and hardware)

SATA 3 hardware/support.

Elimination of "Autosave/Versions" and option for "Save As".

I've filed bug reports as an ADC member (Apple has acknowledged "Mission Control" GUI issues as well as OpenGL) and feedback. Engineers are very stubborn, and always have been. It's their way or the highway.

WSR
Apr 5, 2012, 09:14 PM
An option between L/SL's Expose/Spaces and Mission Control

More control over AutoSave, Versions, and Resume, i.e. being able to turn them off in some cases.

Return of Save As and Do You Want To Save?.

The ability to use a multiple monitors in Full-Screen mode. On this note, though I've heard posters defend Mission Control, I can't remember anyone defending Full-Screen mode creating a new Space over just going into Full-Screen mode in the current Space.

blow45
Apr 6, 2012, 05:19 PM
www.apple.com/feedback

You beat me to it!

OP Apple doesn't read Macrumors. You'll have to submit to the link the previous poster posted.

Is that all you two smart alecs could comment on? :rolleyes:

Excellent post op. Sums up very nicely all that is wrong in lion and needs work on. Please allow me to quote it almost verbatim in a new thread as you 've said much better than I would.

jameslmoser
Apr 6, 2012, 07:05 PM
You beat me to it!

OP Apple doesn't read Macrumors. You'll have to submit to the link the previous poster posted.

Unfortunately, they don't seem to read the feedback posts either....

rkaufmann87
Apr 6, 2012, 07:31 PM
Is that all you two smart alecs could comment on? :rolleyes:



Yes and I don't see a thing wrong with it, it was sound advice.

Better than violating a non disclosure agreement.

chrono1081
Apr 6, 2012, 07:39 PM
According to a friend of mine (who works for Apple) http://www.apple.com/feedback

or calling Apple directly is the way to contact them with comments, suggestions, or improvements and it makes sense, its exactly how it was every place I worked.

Even in my current job people can email or bug IT all they want but if they don't put a work request in there won't be any work done. Paper trails are needed for organization (and sanity on the receivers part).

blow45
Apr 6, 2012, 07:39 PM
Yes and I don't see a thing wrong with it, it was sound advice.

Better than violating a non disclosure agreement.

It was smart alec-y "advice". You don't have to violate an nda to comment on your views wrt the numerous suggestions of the op. The guy put in so much effort and it was one of the best post I 've read summing up the numerous complaints a vast number of apple's user base have with lion that they would like to see addressed in ml. You discarded the content of the whole post and suggested living feedback to apple. You what a large % of forum posts could be simply replied to by a link to apple feedback? The forum wouldn't be here to begin with if all these threads were simply responded to with a leave feedback to apple instead.

According to a friend of mine (who works for Apple) http://www.apple.com/feedback

or calling Apple directly is the way to contact them with comments, suggestions, or improvements and it makes sense, its exactly how it was every place I worked.

Even in my current job people can email or bug IT all they want but if they don't put a work request in there won't be any work done. Paper trails are needed for organization (and sanity on the receivers part).
For sure, but here we are at macrumors user forums, and like I said most everything can be replied to by a leave feedback to apple or call apple instead. There would be no forum if that was the standard quip and the points made by the post itself went undiscussed.

rkaufmann87
Apr 6, 2012, 11:42 PM
It was smart alec-y "advice". You don't have to violate an nda to comment on your views wrt the numerous suggestions of the op. The guy put in so much effort and it was one of the best post I 've read summing up the numerous complaints a vast number of apple's user base have with lion that they would like to see addressed in ml. You discarded the content of the whole post and suggested living feedback to apple. You what a large % of forum posts could be simply replied to by a link to apple feedback? The forum wouldn't be here to begin with if all these threads were simply responded to with a leave feedback to apple instead.


You are missing the point completely, the fact that he's even posting any information about ML on this forum is in direct violation of the NDA he agreed to. If he didn't agree to an NDA then that means he simply illegally downloaded the software, either way there is an ethics issue here. However that is the case with any poster on this forum that posts information about ML other than what has been publicly issued by Apple on http://www.apple.com/macosx/mountain-lion/ . You also missed the point that if you or anyone for that matter wants to communicate suggestions on ANY Apple product to Apple the correct venue is www.apple.com/feedback.

Once again my original post was valid and to the point.

I am not arguing the point that the OP's post was well written, however the fact that he's publishing it in a public forum is unethical.

blow45
Apr 7, 2012, 07:36 AM
He's criticising lion's issues that have been "carried over" to ml. If he's revealing anything it's what apple haven't done, not what apple have done. In any case ml has been extensively previewed under an nda from apple insider and apple for the first time in os x history also prereleased the beta to the press too.

Takuro
Apr 7, 2012, 08:20 AM
I think azpc hit the nail on the head in terms of addressing not only the particular sore spots that customers might have with Mountain Lion, but also some long-standing issues that have been prevalent since the debut of OS X 10.0 years ago.

The one recent change that I dislike is the "save a version", "duplicate," and "export" options for documents. I think this adds a lot of unnecessary complexity. It should simply be "save" "save as" and "restore from save." "Save" would save a version. "Save as" would default to the old behavior of saving it to a new document, rather than duplicating and prompting you to commit the changes you've made to the new document. "Restore from save" would give you the option to roll back to any previous save of the document via the Versions window. This would retain most of the new functionality that had been introduced in Lion and would be more intuitive.

d21mike
Apr 7, 2012, 10:06 AM
Client Comment:

"I have looked at the iMac carefully, as my kids have one at home. Even though I'd like to switch to Apple, I find two issues with the Mac unacceptable for my purposes .

The inability to fully maximize a program is irritating, as I am used to doing that regularly. Also the cursor movements with the mouse are too jerky. Unfortunately these 2 features will force me to continue down the Microsoft OS path."I switch to the Mac about 2 years ago (after about 30 years on MS) and this was one of my main complaints. I eventually got used to it because i was "committed" to making the switch. Also, I really miss not being able to use right mouse to create a new file (used heavily in Windows and available with some Finder replacements). Seems to me Apple could make some very simple UI Changes to help Windows Users make the switch. There are some legitimate features in Windows that are not bad just because Windows works that way. Anyway, to be fair, Windows could include some features available on the Mac.

tkermit
Apr 7, 2012, 11:57 AM
I switch to the Mac about 2 years ago (after about 30 years on MS) and this was one of my main complaints. I eventually got used to it because i was "committed" to making the switch. Also, I really miss not being able to use right mouse to create a new file (used heavily in Windows and available with some Finder replacements). Seems to me Apple could make some very simple UI Changes to help Windows Users make the switch. There are some legitimate features in Windows that are not bad just because Windows works that way. Anyway, to be fair, Windows could include some features available on the Mac.

I really hope Apple won't change the green 'Zoom' button into a Windows-style Maximize button, especially now that there's a dedicated fullscreen button. :eek:

http://f.cl.ly/items/3Z0M2Z3c3b392h1p1o3R/zoom.png

HabSonic
Apr 7, 2012, 12:09 PM
I dont' want Mac OS to become Windows.

blow45
Apr 7, 2012, 12:19 PM
I switch to the Mac about 2 years ago (after about 30 years on MS) and this was one of my main complaints. I eventually got used to it because i was "committed" to making the switch.
http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/30591/right-zoom
Works great, problem solved.

I really hope Apple won't change the green 'Zoom' button into a Windows-style Maximize button, especially now that there's a dedicated fullscreen button. :eek:
I find it very interesting that you consistently miss big points made about lion's problems in favor of easy to attack minor points.

I dont' want Mac OS to become Windows.
this is not about os x becoming like windows, it's about fixing it's own self made mess.


The one recent change that I dislike is the "save a version", "duplicate," and "export" options for documents. I think this adds a lot of unnecessary complexity. It should simply be "save" "save as" and "restore from save." "Save" would save a version. "Save as" would default to the old behavior of saving it to a new document, rather than duplicating and prompting you to commit the changes you've made to the new document. "Restore from save" would give you the option to roll back to any previous save of the document via the Versions window. This would retain most of the new functionality that had been introduced in Lion and would be more intuitive.
You are absolutely right and this is a far, far better way to implement it. I hope their ego isn't inflated beyond belief that they 'll stick to their original poor implementation instead and have us suffer through it.

tkermit
Apr 7, 2012, 12:38 PM
I find it very interesting that you consistently miss big points made about lion's problems in favor of easy to attack minor points.

Huh? My point was that the green Zoom button is fine as it is. I didn't "attack" the other points, because some of them are either valid (quick look zooming, column resizing) , at least in that they need refinement (automatic termination, Resume), or I wouldn't care either way (colored vs. grey icons, scroll arrows, mouse acceleration), or I personally see more advantages than disadvantages to the new system (autosave, versions)

As for this point:


Finder

Restore the option at the bottom of the finder window to show number of files selected and the Space available on the hard disk.

View -> Show Status Bar


EDIT: Note that I don't have access to Mountain Lion, I'm strictly speaking about Lion here.

d21mike
Apr 7, 2012, 02:06 PM
http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/30591/right-zoom
Works great, problem solved.Thanks for that. Looks promising. As I said before I did get use to it on my Mac Mini with 27" Monitor (was on smaller monitors when running using Windows). However, I recently got a Mac Book Air (mostly for when traveling - love it) and I think this would be helpful on that device. However, this is kind of the point about Apple providing Options for the customer. Notice the option in Lion for the "New" Track Pad "Scroll Direction". They decided to give you a choice within the settings. For me I like the new direction but I think it was wise of Apple to make it an Option / "Choice". This would the same for "New Document / File (like New Folder)" when inside a folder (in Finder). Why not at least make it an Option if they do not want to make it a default.

Regarding the new FULL SCREEN Mode. I think this is a nice feature and I am glad it is there (like Windows F11). However, it is not the same as Maximize Window. I personally do not want to loose the Doc and the Menu Bar most of the time (only sometimes). Just want to use all other available screen space for the App. Especially when on the Laptop with only a 13" screen.

I think just because Windows has a feature/option and Mac decides to add it (like the Windows F11) does not mean they are turning Mac OSX into Windows. Maybe they are just making Mac OSX better for the customer.

tkermit
Apr 7, 2012, 02:15 PM
Regarding the new FULL SCREEN Mode. I think this is a nice feature and I am glad it is there (like Windows F11). However, it is not the same as Maximize Window. I personally do not want to loose the Doc and the Menu Bar most of the time (only sometimes). Just want to use all other available screen space for the App. Especially when on the Laptop with only a 13" screen.
In what cases do you need the window to be larger than the size the zoom button adjusts it to? Just wondering.


I think just because Windows has a feature/option and Mac decides to add it (like the Windows F11) does not mean they are turning Mac OSX into Windows. Maybe they are just making Mac OSX better for the customer.

That has to be decided on a case by case basis. But certainly the main goal shouldn't be to concentrate on making it easy for windows users to transition over to the Mac when that involves implementing inferior concepts, carried over from Windows, like only having the option to maximize windows instead of intelligently adjusting their size to the content.

baryon
Apr 7, 2012, 02:22 PM
Step 1: Open Safari
Step 2: Press green "+" button
Step 3: Why????????? How does this even make sense?

I also agree with everything in the original post. Apple needs to remove most of the things they added or at least allow us to turn them off, such as versions, autosave, mission control, resume, auto app termination, etc… These are horribly annoying and complex to understand and get a hold of. I want to be able to predict what my computer will do, after all, it's a machine, it should be predictable.

I don't want old windows to open back up unexpectedly, files to get modified without my consent, or apps quitting when I'm still using them, and I'm only switching to another app to check something.

Some things in Lion and ML are great, like the new UI features and some minor improvements that make a huge difference (scroll bars, resizing windows, better gestures), but some major things are seriously flawed and I think they are often going in the wrong direction. Some things work great on iOS but make absolutely no sense on OS X, like auto save.

tkermit
Apr 7, 2012, 02:39 PM
Step 1: Open Safari
Step 2: Press green "+" button
Step 3: Why????????? How does this even make sense?
Sometimes the zoom button does indeed display strange behavior. I'd consider those cases bugs that Apple has to fix.


I also agree with everything in the original post. Apple needs to remove most of the things they added or at least allow us to turn them off, such as versions, autosave, mission control, resume, auto app termination, etc…
Even though there's room for improvement, there is no way they'll remove them. Autosave,Resume and Automatic Termination also are dependent on each other, so turning them off individually is not as simple as you make it out to be.




I don't want old windows to open back up unexpectedly,
It's only unexpected if your expectation is that apps don't remember their state.


files to get modified without my consent,

Already happening all the time with system files. If you mean your personal files only, then you're "consenting" by modifying the file. If you write a letter on your desk in "real life", does the paper "get modified without your consent"?


or apps quitting when I'm still using them, and I'm only switching to another app to check something.
For apps where it can be argued that there is a reason for them hanging around even after you've closed the last window, Apple should think about changing that behavior, I agree.


Some things work great on iOS but make absolutely no sense on OS X, like auto save.
What's so different about these systems that it makes sense on one but not the other?

iThinkergoiMac
Apr 7, 2012, 04:01 PM
Finder

Restore the option at the bottom of the finder window to show number of files selected and the Space available on the hard disk.

Open a window in Finder. View -> Show Status Bar... problem solved.

blow45
Apr 7, 2012, 04:14 PM
If people want to rationalize away anything apple does as helpful then you get to read

Sometimes the zoom button does indeed display strange behavior. I'd consider those cases bugs that Apple has to fix.
They've not fixed them for 10 years, you think they can still be considered bugs?

Already happening all the time with system files:
Yeah cause of course this is what the other person meant.. it is the same as versioning a file without explicit user consent and getting it to 3-4 times its size... Or chucking away a file in the trash can only for it's versioned history to have remained in bulk versioning file.

If you write a letter on your desk in "real life", does the paper "get modified without your consent"?
The analogy isn't apt at all. It's a completely different frame of reference. If the user on a computer want to explicitly save something instead of having the os autosave they should be capable of saving when they want, and if they want. Apps remembering their state stemmed from a need to freeze the app away in a low memory system and one without multitasking and get it back as it was. This does not apply to os x. ios apps also do not have windows.

It's only unexpected if your expectation is that apps don't remember their state.
No it's not. It's unexpected because if you quit an app without closing its windows too, and that can happen very often, and then you re-open it after a few days say, a lot of unexpected windows will pop back up, because one isn't expected to remember what open windows they had a few days, or a month ago. This "remembering of state" for each app makes users particularly uneasy using their macs with other people. Did I remember to close that personal diary/private photos/company expenses document I was working on or will it pop back up on me unexpectedly when I 'll open a document to show to a client?

Comes to show this save state idea is good on paper but very problematic in practice. What's more since ios doesn't have windows, if you open a file in pages, then pages will take you directly to that file, it won't pop back up 4 windows of docs you are working on. So remembering the state is quite a different ball game in the mac.

I am a firm believer that the os x leadership doesn't known their behind from their elbow if they haven't figured these very important details out, and that's why lion in terms of implementing these "advances" and in terms of overall bugginess and refinement is such a sordid mess.

Apparently they just went ok, they ll remember their state as in ios. Yeah, but like I said,in ios (which isn't a windows based os) their state means that whatever new document opens (everywhere, in good reader, in pages, in office management app) it won't pop up 5 windows of what you were working on before, these will be in the background somewhere so you don't run the very real risk that opening a document in front of someone else will reveal to that person your whole work history. So right now users are in the unpleasant position of having to make double sure they've shut every document window in every app they were working on for fear that at any point they might try to open a new document in front of someone else they will share with them whatever else they had been working on.

But that's no big a deal, we 'll just get ocd over closing every window down instead of apple offering the choice that an app DOES NOT remember it's state by an EXPLICIT user controlled CHOICE.

And let me ask you something else, what's so special about an app remembering its state? If I want an app to remember it's state I hide it on the dock, if I shut an app, and re-open it I want to start with a clean state. Why is it important that an app remembers the way it was? Why not have an explicit command upon opening to revert to its past state, as in say open all previous windows and tabs in safari, or open the last open documents in other apps? What's so great about an app starting up to where I left off instead of starting up anew and letting me navigate my way to where I d like to take it. Cause to me it just sounds like a bs ios loan this "state remembering" thing with no real advantage just problems.

And it's the same with re-opening all windows upon restart? Why the hell would I want that? If I want that why not put the mac to sleep, or to some hibernate mode? When people restart an os one of the reasons they do it is precisely because they want it to start without all the mess of open windows and apps they had on before, otherwise why not just put it to some power efficient sleep mode?

What's so different about these systems that it makes sense on one but not the other?
Oh absolutely nothing, that's why all macs are touch enabled too, ohhh wait, they are not, because didn't Steve Jobs himself say what works well there might not work well here? See above for the rest.

tkermit
Apr 7, 2012, 05:03 PM
I feel like I have had this exact discussion with people ~8 months ago when Lion was released. Do we really have to go over all of this again?!?

- some bugs survive even over a period of 10 years, imagine that

- Autosave is supposed to get rid of the concept of there being a difference between the state of the file on disk and the state of the document you're working on. If you want to separate the two, you can duplicate a document to one that is not connected with a file on disk. This also makes it possible to make experimental changes not reflected in the file, and only save a specific version to a new or existing file.

- if your expectation is that apps remember their state, and you close an app with windows open, you want the windows to pop back up when you reopen the app, thus it would be expected, not unexpected behavior

- what justifies you to make the claim that Resume "makes users particularly uneasy using their macs with other people" - are you talking about yourself, your friends, employees, colleagues, or have you done user studies?!

- I don't see the difference between iOS returning you to the document you were working on and OS X returning you to your documents you were working on

- What's special about an app remembering its state?
You don't have to worry about apps crashing or forced restarts due to system updates, you can close apps to free resources without having to deal with decisions about unsaved changes or having to reopen documents later that you still wanted to have open, you can restart apps when the app is leaking memory and get right back to everything you were working on, etc…

- Why the hell would you want reopening of all windows upon restart?
A lot of people only restart their computer for forced system updates. It is convenient to get right back to where you left off. Also, if you switch between different operating systems, you can leave apps (and documents) open and later be returned to them when you're done using the other system. In other words, it's nice for all the times when you have no option but to reboot, yet still have documents or apps open that you are not done with.

- I don't think you have explained successfully why Autosave makes sense on iOS but not on OS X


apple offering the choice that an app DOES NOT remember it's state by an EXPLICIT user controlled CHOICE.
Hey, I wouldn't have a problem with that. :cool:

blow45
Apr 7, 2012, 05:40 PM
sorry if you feel you 've gone over this before, I don't mean to belabour a point, some people reading here might not have though. :)

1. reminds me of ms going they are not bugs they are features...;)

2. I am aware of this. Why is this helpful to me when it means versioning that might end up taking too much space for me. Why should I have it as default? Admittedly autosave if implemented correctly and set again on a per user/app choice basis isn't something I am averse to.

3. It's expected behaviour that will have very unexpected results if you don't remember if you did or didn't close a window.

4. I don't need to do user studies to realize that when people want to open an excel file to show to a client they 'll be ******** themselves wondering if they did or didn't close all windows in excel last time they used it so said client won't see the companies internal spreadsheets, such as financial spreadsheets, spreadsheets of other clients etc. etc.

5. You don't see the difference between "open in" in ios taking you to just the document in the app you chose to open it with, and os x popping up 5 previous windows from the app you are meant to be opening with as well as the document you want to open? In any case you might not be able to see the difference but then again you are not getting paid a few millions a year by apple to be able to see it. Creg Federichi (sp?) is and he should have been able to see it.

6.-8. All of which can be simply ascribed to a command in the menu bar "go to previous state" and doesn't have to be by default. It's a direct ios loan simply because ios had to save the state because of lack of multitasking initially due to the low memory and underpowered cpu. It doesn't carry over any real advantages to os x.

7. If the main issue is about restarting after system updates, then have the system restore everything as it was ONLY after system updates. If I explicitly decide to reboot I do not want everything as it used to be. In terms of switching between two os's, you have a point, but then why not make it an explicit choice there? In any case the future is virtualizing one os within another.

tkermit
Apr 7, 2012, 06:06 PM
2. I am aware of this. Why is this helpful to me when it means versioning that might end up taking too much space for me. Why should I have it as default? Admittedly autosave if implemented correctly and set again on a per user/app choice basis isn't something I am averse to.
I am not saying Apple has managed to implement versioning and autosave perfectly. Versions certainly aren't supposed to take up a lot of space. There are still unfortunate issues, like the version history vanishing if you restore from a backup.... :/


3. It's expected behaviour that will have very unexpected results if you don't remember if you did or didn't close a window.

4. I don't need to do user studies to realize that when people want to open an excel file to show to a client they 'll be ******** themselves wondering if they did or didn't close all windows in excel last time they used it so said client won't see the companies internal spreadsheets, such as financial spreadsheets, spreadsheets of other clients etc. etc.
Personally I've adapted to Lion by concentrating on closing windows instead of apps. Only once in a while will I use the Alt-tab switcher to close a few apps at once. This kind of "housekeeping" would be less of an issue if Automatic termination was more widely supported by now, since you obviously don't have to take care of closing apps like Preview, Quicktime Player, Automator, Textedit, iCal etc. (at least you shouldn't have to – in practice 'Automatic termination' doesn't always work as intended in Lion... :( )


5. You don't see the difference between "open in" in ios taking you to just the document in the app you chose to open it with, and os x popping up 5 previous windows from the app you are meant to be opening with as well as the document you want to open? In any case you might not be able to see the difference but then again you are not getting paid a few millions a year by apple to be able to see it. Creg Federichi (sp?) is and he should have been able to see it.
Good point about the few millions. It's Craig Federighi btw. Even on iOS you're returned to the last document you were working on (which might not be relevant to the task at hand) if you start an app from the home screen, instead of using the "open with" command from another app.


6.-8. All of which can be simply ascribed to a command in the menu bar "go to previous state" and doesn't have to be by default.
That sounds cumbersome to do it for each app. :/


It's a direct ios loan simply because ios had to save the state because of lack of multitasking initially due to the low memory and underpowered cpu. It doesn't carry over any real advantages to os x.
Let's just say I disagree.


7. If the main issue is about restarting after system updates, then have the system restore everything as it was ONLY after system updates. If I explicitly decide to reboot I do not want everything as it used to be.

Maybe you don't. In that case, you can take advantage of the little checkbox and disable the option to "reopen windows when logging back in".
http://f.cl.ly/items/1w3b0S100X1L121e042w/reopen.png
I know people were asking for the selection to stick permanently. No idea whether ML is bringing any changes there.

baryon
Apr 9, 2012, 04:41 PM
It's only unexpected if your expectation is that apps don't remember their state.


Yes, but the problem is that every app behaves differently, since not everything supports Resume, while other apps will "Resume" even if the feature is turned off (this may be a bug though). I'd prefer to just have a simple rule such as "apps will always resume" or "apps will never resume".


Already happening all the time with system files. If you mean your personal files only, then you're "consenting" by modifying the file. If you write a letter on your desk in "real life", does the paper "get modified without your consent"?


What I mean is that most apps in the world will require you to deliberately save the file before storing your changes. The few that Apple updated and that support Auto Save will, however, behave differently, and you pretty much have to learn by heart which apps those are. It annoys me more to have 2 kinds of apps out there that behave differently than actually not having this feature. I think that a security auto-save that recovers files when your system crashes is great, but auto-saving everything is a bit annoying. If every app did this (like in iOS) then I'm sure it would be great though.


What's so different about these systems that it makes sense on one but not the other?

In iOS, things are very consistent: every app Resumes, every app Auto-Saves, every app is managed by the OS when it decides which resources to use (a bit like auto-termination). In Lion, it depends on a per-app basis and it's quite random. Some apps have features they don't really need (Preview should not ever use Resume, in my opinion), while others lack features they need (the ones that haven't been updated yet (yes, that's not Apple's fault, but this doesn't happen in iOS)).

I really prefer a consistent behavior, and I'd rather not use any of the new features just to get consistency, and that's why it would be great to turn off these new features, and turn them back on when every app supports all of them.

tkermit
Apr 9, 2012, 05:49 PM
@baryon: I absolutely agree. The inconsistency is annoying right now.

azpc
Apr 9, 2012, 11:30 PM
"Better than violating a non disclosure agreement."

Thanks to extensive Apple previews and reviews no non disclosure agreements have been violated.

A note from the original post - "However, some features carried over from Lion need implementation improvements."

My hope is that the readers of this forum will copy and send my original posting to www.apple.com/feedback

(I have already sent this message to Apple.com/feedback)

I am sure other users have worthy requests that also need to be brought to Apple's attention. I hope these requests are also sent to Apple.com/feedback.

azpc
Apr 9, 2012, 11:59 PM
Nice idea, an improvement over Save a Version listed in my original post. Thank you for taking the time to post!


Save, Save As and Restore from Save.

Save would save a version.

Save As would default to the old behavior of saving it to a new document

Restore from Save would give the user the option to revert to a previous version of a document via the Versions window. This would retain the new functionality introduced in Lion and would be more intuitive.

----------

I really hope Apple won't change the green 'Zoom' button into a Windows-style Maximize button, especially now that there's a dedicated fullscreen button. :eek:

Image (http://f.cl.ly/items/3Z0M2Z3c3b392h1p1o3R/zoom.png)

Fortunately, I am not asking for Apple to change the default behavior of the Green Zoom button. Instead, I am asking Apple to provide an option inside of System Preferences, allowing users to define the behavior of the Green Zoom button.

Apple builds very nice computers, however, inconsistent developer implementations of the Green Zoom button really frustrate a lot of dedicated Mac users. Having the option would increase their satisfaction with OSX.

Thank you for allowing me to clarify this!

----------

I dont' want Mac OS to become Windows.

I agree.

I am only asking for Apple to re-examine the current implementation of several features listed in the original post. In each request, I am not asking Apple to change the default behavior, I am only asking for Apple to provide additional options to improve user satisfaction with OSX.

Thank you for allowing me to clarify this.

azpc
Apr 10, 2012, 12:13 AM
To tkermit,

Thank you for taking the time to post.

As a Mac user and a tech support professional, I am trying to keep Mac clients as happy with their new Mac's as possible. Over the last six months I have noticed a dramatic slow down in the number of clients who are purchasing new Macs.

After questioning these clients, patterns started to become apparent. The original post was to highlight these issues. I am not attempting to change the default behavior for any Mac user. However, after working with some of these clients for over two years, I have come to the conclusion that a few additional hidden options in (System Preferences, Get Info) would greatly increase many users appreciation of OSX.

Have a nice evening and enjoy your Mac!

d21mike
Apr 10, 2012, 09:55 AM
In what cases do you need the window to be larger than the size the zoom button adjusts it to? Just wondering.



That has to be decided on a case by case basis. But certainly the main goal shouldn't be to concentrate on making it easy for windows users to transition over to the Mac when that involves implementing inferior concepts, carried over from Windows, like only having the option to maximize windows instead of intelligently adjusting their size to the content.I do understand what you are getting at. When you hit the ZOOM Button it will make the window size optimized for the content it is displaying. I will give you that it does a good job. So, the best answer I can give you is the distraction of the extra data outside of the Windows. On my 13" my mail, calendar and some other apps that I use often it does fill the screen similar (or the same) as the Windows Maximize Button. Regarding Safari which would be my other most used App. This works as expected but as I change from my default web page to a highly used web I have to hit the Max Button so that I do not need to scroll. Once I do make it that size it does stay after closing the browser and reopening. However, if I go to another page that is even bigger I would need to do it again. So for me the very little extra space on the left and right are just not worth keeping. I would prefer on my 13" to have the max button work like windows. If there was an option in settings to do that I could make that the default on my 13" laptop and leave it the default on my 27" display. Again, I do not think this would be a bad option to have since it appears to be a big wish for those Windows Users switching to the Mac. And your comment appears to be the MAX Button either works the way it does now or it works the way Windows is not what I have ever said. I gave the example of scrolling on the track pad where Apple made it an option. That is all I am saying. Make it an option so the user (not you or i) can decide.

gumblecosby
Apr 10, 2012, 10:40 AM
Fix this 2d genie effect bug. It has been here since 10.6 - 10.8 dev preview 2. A real showstopper

:)