Mountain Lion Suggestions

rkaufmann87 said:

http://www.apple.com/feedback

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You beat me to it!

OP Apple doesn't read Macrumors. You'll have to submit to the link the previous poster posted.

Mouse acceleration is way better in Lion than it was in SL. And in SL it was better than in Leopard. I'm happy now.

Maximizing the windows... well, now more and more apps have full-screen option, so I guess that's it.

10.5/6 Expose and Spaces, "Mission Control" is a failure.

Less iOS integration, it's either all of nothing Apple, these iOS features slowly incorporated into a desktop system feel out of place.

OpenGL [full] 4.0+ support

More efficiency and streamlining, less resource hogging.

Improved Finder HFS+

Retina display support (and hardware)

SATA 3 hardware/support.

Elimination of "Autosave/Versions" and option for "Save As".

I've filed bug reports as an ADC member (Apple has acknowledged "Mission Control" GUI issues as well as OpenGL) and feedback. Engineers are very stubborn, and always have been. It's their way or the highway.

An option between L/SL's Expose/Spaces and Mission Control

More control over AutoSave, Versions, and Resume, i.e. being able to turn them off in some cases.

Return of Save As and Do You Want To Save?.

The ability to use a multiple monitors in Full-Screen mode. On this note, though I've heard posters defend Mission Control, I can't remember anyone defending Full-Screen mode creating a new Space over just going into Full-Screen mode in the current Space.

rkaufmann87 said:

http://www.apple.com/feedback

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chrono1081 said:

You beat me to it!

OP Apple doesn't read Macrumors. You'll have to submit to the link the previous poster posted.

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Is that all you two smart alecs could comment on?

Excellent post op. Sums up very nicely all that is wrong in lion and needs work on. Please allow me to quote it almost verbatim in a new thread as you 've said much better than I would.

chrono1081 said:

You beat me to it!

OP Apple doesn't read Macrumors. You'll have to submit to the link the previous poster posted.

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Unfortunately, they don't seem to read the feedback posts either....

blow45 said:

Is that all you two smart alecs could comment on?

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Yes and I don't see a thing wrong with it, it was sound advice.

Better than violating a non disclosure agreement.

According to a friend of mine (who works for Apple) http://www.apple.com/feedback

or calling Apple directly is the way to contact them with comments, suggestions, or improvements and it makes sense, its exactly how it was every place I worked.

Even in my current job people can email or bug IT all they want but if they don't put a work request in there won't be any work done. Paper trails are needed for organization (and sanity on the receivers part).

rkaufmann87 said:

Yes and I don't see a thing wrong with it, it was sound advice.

Better than violating a non disclosure agreement.

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It was smart alec-y "advice". You don't have to violate an nda to comment on your views wrt the numerous suggestions of the op. The guy put in so much effort and it was one of the best post I 've read summing up the numerous complaints a vast number of apple's user base have with lion that they would like to see addressed in ml. You discarded the content of the whole post and suggested living feedback to apple. You what a large % of forum posts could be simply replied to by a link to apple feedback? The forum wouldn't be here to begin with if all these threads were simply responded to with a leave feedback to apple instead.

chrono1081 said:

According to a friend of mine (who works for Apple) http://www.apple.com/feedback

or calling Apple directly is the way to contact them with comments, suggestions, or improvements and it makes sense, its exactly how it was every place I worked.

Even in my current job people can email or bug IT all they want but if they don't put a work request in there won't be any work done. Paper trails are needed for organization (and sanity on the receivers part).

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For sure, but here we are at macrumors user forums, and like I said most everything can be replied to by a leave feedback to apple or call apple instead. There would be no forum if that was the standard quip and the points made by the post itself went undiscussed.

blow45 said:

It was smart alec-y "advice". You don't have to violate an nda to comment on your views wrt the numerous suggestions of the op. The guy put in so much effort and it was one of the best post I 've read summing up the numerous complaints a vast number of apple's user base have with lion that they would like to see addressed in ml. You discarded the content of the whole post and suggested living feedback to apple. You what a large % of forum posts could be simply replied to by a link to apple feedback? The forum wouldn't be here to begin with if all these threads were simply responded to with a leave feedback to apple instead.

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You are missing the point completely, the fact that he's even posting any information about ML on this forum is in direct violation of the NDA he agreed to. If he didn't agree to an NDA then that means he simply illegally downloaded the software, either way there is an ethics issue here. However that is the case with any poster on this forum that posts information about ML other than what has been publicly issued by Apple on http://www.apple.com/macosx/mountain-lion/ . You also missed the point that if you or anyone for that matter wants to communicate suggestions on ANY Apple product to Apple the correct venue is http://www.apple.com/feedback.

Once again my original post was valid and to the point.

I am not arguing the point that the OP's post was well written, however the fact that he's publishing it in a public forum is unethical.

He's criticising lion's issues that have been "carried over" to ml. If he's revealing anything it's what apple haven't done, not what apple have done. In any case ml has been extensively previewed under an nda from apple insider and apple for the first time in os x history also prereleased the beta to the press too.

I think azpc hit the nail on the head in terms of addressing not only the particular sore spots that customers might have with Mountain Lion, but also some long-standing issues that have been prevalent since the debut of OS X 10.0 years ago.

The one recent change that I dislike is the "save a version", "duplicate," and "export" options for documents. I think this adds a lot of unnecessary complexity. It should simply be "save" "save as" and "restore from save." "Save" would save a version. "Save as" would default to the old behavior of saving it to a new document, rather than duplicating and prompting you to commit the changes you've made to the new document. "Restore from save" would give you the option to roll back to any previous save of the document via the Versions window. This would retain most of the new functionality that had been introduced in Lion and would be more intuitive.

azpc said:

Client Comment:

"I have looked at the iMac carefully, as my kids have one at home. Even though I'd like to switch to Apple, I find two issues with the Mac unacceptable for my purposes .

The inability to fully maximize a program is irritating, as I am used to doing that regularly. Also the cursor movements with the mouse are too jerky. Unfortunately these 2 features will force me to continue down the Microsoft OS path."

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I switch to the Mac about 2 years ago (after about 30 years on MS) and this was one of my main complaints. I eventually got used to it because i was "committed" to making the switch. Also, I really miss not being able to use right mouse to create a new file (used heavily in Windows and available with some Finder replacements). Seems to me Apple could make some very simple UI Changes to help Windows Users make the switch. There are some legitimate features in Windows that are not bad just because Windows works that way. Anyway, to be fair, Windows could include some features available on the Mac.

d21mike said:

I switch to the Mac about 2 years ago (after about 30 years on MS) and this was one of my main complaints. I eventually got used to it because i was "committed" to making the switch. Also, I really miss not being able to use right mouse to create a new file (used heavily in Windows and available with some Finder replacements). Seems to me Apple could make some very simple UI Changes to help Windows Users make the switch. There are some legitimate features in Windows that are not bad just because Windows works that way. Anyway, to be fair, Windows could include some features available on the Mac.

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I really hope Apple won't change the green 'Zoom' button into a Windows-style Maximize button, especially now that there's a dedicated fullscreen button.

I dont' want Mac OS to become Windows.

d21mike said:

I switch to the Mac about 2 years ago (after about 30 years on MS) and this was one of my main complaints. I eventually got used to it because i was "committed" to making the switch.

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http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/30591/right-zoom
Works great, problem solved.

tkermit said:

I really hope Apple won't change the green 'Zoom' button into a Windows-style Maximize button, especially now that there's a dedicated fullscreen button.

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I find it very interesting that you consistently miss big points made about lion's problems in favor of easy to attack minor points.

HabSonic said:

I dont' want Mac OS to become Windows.

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this is not about os x becoming like windows, it's about fixing it's own self made mess.

Takuro said:

The one recent change that I dislike is the "save a version", "duplicate," and "export" options for documents. I think this adds a lot of unnecessary complexity. It should simply be "save" "save as" and "restore from save." "Save" would save a version. "Save as" would default to the old behavior of saving it to a new document, rather than duplicating and prompting you to commit the changes you've made to the new document. "Restore from save" would give you the option to roll back to any previous save of the document via the Versions window. This would retain most of the new functionality that had been introduced in Lion and would be more intuitive.

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You are absolutely right and this is a far, far better way to implement it. I hope their ego isn't inflated beyond belief that they 'll stick to their original poor implementation instead and have us suffer through it.

blow45 said:

I find it very interesting that you consistently miss big points made about lion's problems in favor of easy to attack minor points.

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Huh? My point was that the green Zoom button is fine as it is. I didn't "attack" the other points, because some of them are either valid (quick look zooming, column resizing) , at least in that they need refinement (automatic termination, Resume), or I wouldn't care either way (colored vs. grey icons, scroll arrows, mouse acceleration), or I personally see more advantages than disadvantages to the new system (autosave, versions)

As for this point:

azpc said:

Finder

Restore the option at the bottom of the finder window to show number of files selected and the Space available on the hard disk.

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View -> Show Status Bar


EDIT: Note that I don't have access to Mountain Lion, I'm strictly speaking about Lion here.

blow45 said:

http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/30591/right-zoom
Works great, problem solved.

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Thanks for that. Looks promising. As I said before I did get use to it on my Mac Mini with 27" Monitor (was on smaller monitors when running using Windows). However, I recently got a Mac Book Air (mostly for when traveling - love it) and I think this would be helpful on that device. However, this is kind of the point about Apple providing Options for the customer. Notice the option in Lion for the "New" Track Pad "Scroll Direction". They decided to give you a choice within the settings. For me I like the new direction but I think it was wise of Apple to make it an Option / "Choice". This would the same for "New Document / File (like New Folder)" when inside a folder (in Finder). Why not at least make it an Option if they do not want to make it a default.

Regarding the new FULL SCREEN Mode. I think this is a nice feature and I am glad it is there (like Windows F11). However, it is not the same as Maximize Window. I personally do not want to loose the Doc and the Menu Bar most of the time (only sometimes). Just want to use all other available screen space for the App. Especially when on the Laptop with only a 13" screen.

I think just because Windows has a feature/option and Mac decides to add it (like the Windows F11) does not mean they are turning Mac OSX into Windows. Maybe they are just making Mac OSX better for the customer.

d21mike said:

Regarding the new FULL SCREEN Mode. I think this is a nice feature and I am glad it is there (like Windows F11). However, it is not the same as Maximize Window. I personally do not want to loose the Doc and the Menu Bar most of the time (only sometimes). Just want to use all other available screen space for the App. Especially when on the Laptop with only a 13" screen.

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In what cases do you need the window to be larger than the size the zoom button adjusts it to? Just wondering.

d21mike said:

I think just because Windows has a feature/option and Mac decides to add it (like the Windows F11) does not mean they are turning Mac OSX into Windows. Maybe they are just making Mac OSX better for the customer.

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That has to be decided on a case by case basis. But certainly the main goal shouldn't be to concentrate on making it easy for windows users to transition over to the Mac when that involves implementing inferior concepts, carried over from Windows, like only having the option to maximize windows instead of intelligently adjusting their size to the content.

Step 1: Open Safari
Step 2: Press green "+" button
Step 3: Why????????? How does this even make sense?

I also agree with everything in the original post. Apple needs to remove most of the things they added or at least allow us to turn them off, such as versions, autosave, mission control, resume, auto app termination, etc… These are horribly annoying and complex to understand and get a hold of. I want to be able to predict what my computer will do, after all, it's a machine, it should be predictable.

I don't want old windows to open back up unexpectedly, files to get modified without my consent, or apps quitting when I'm still using them, and I'm only switching to another app to check something.

Some things in Lion and ML are great, like the new UI features and some minor improvements that make a huge difference (scroll bars, resizing windows, better gestures), but some major things are seriously flawed and I think they are often going in the wrong direction. Some things work great on iOS but make absolutely no sense on OS X, like auto save.

baryon said:

Step 1: Open Safari
Step 2: Press green "+" button
Step 3: Why????????? How does this even make sense?

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Sometimes the zoom button does indeed display strange behavior. I'd consider those cases bugs that Apple has to fix.

baryon said:

I also agree with everything in the original post. Apple needs to remove most of the things they added or at least allow us to turn them off, such as versions, autosave, mission control, resume, auto app termination, etc…

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Even though there's room for improvement, there is no way they'll remove them. Autosave,Resume and Automatic Termination also are dependent on each other, so turning them off individually is not as simple as you make it out to be.

baryon said:

I don't want old windows to open back up unexpectedly,

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It's only unexpected if your expectation is that apps don't remember their state.

baryon said:

files to get modified without my consent,

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Already happening all the time with system files. If you mean your personal files only, then you're "consenting" by modifying the file. If you write a letter on your desk in "real life", does the paper "get modified without your consent"?

baryon said:

or apps quitting when I'm still using them, and I'm only switching to another app to check something.

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For apps where it can be argued that there is a reason for them hanging around even after you've closed the last window, Apple should think about changing that behavior, I agree.

baryon said:

Some things work great on iOS but make absolutely no sense on OS X, like auto save.

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What's so different about these systems that it makes sense on one but not the other?

azpc said:

Finder

Restore the option at the bottom of the finder window to show number of files selected and the Space available on the hard disk.

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Open a window in Finder. View -> Show Status Bar... problem solved.

If people want to rationalize away anything apple does as helpful then you get to read

Sometimes the zoom button does indeed display strange behavior. I'd consider those cases bugs that Apple has to fix.

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They've not fixed them for 10 years, you think they can still be considered bugs?

Already happening all the time with system files

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:
Yeah cause of course this is what the other person meant.. it is the same as versioning a file without explicit user consent and getting it to 3-4 times its size... Or chucking away a file in the trash can only for it's versioned history to have remained in bulk versioning file.

If you write a letter on your desk in "real life", does the paper "get modified without your consent"?

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The analogy isn't apt at all. It's a completely different frame of reference. If the user on a computer want to explicitly save something instead of having the os autosave they should be capable of saving when they want, and if they want. Apps remembering their state stemmed from a need to freeze the app away in a low memory system and one without multitasking and get it back as it was. This does not apply to os x. ios apps also do not have windows.

It's only unexpected if your expectation is that apps don't remember their state.

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No it's not. It's unexpected because if you quit an app without closing its windows too, and that can happen very often, and then you re-open it after a few days say, a lot of unexpected windows will pop back up, because one isn't expected to remember what open windows they had a few days, or a month ago. This "remembering of state" for each app makes users particularly uneasy using their macs with other people. Did I remember to close that personal diary/private photos/company expenses document I was working on or will it pop back up on me unexpectedly when I 'll open a document to show to a client?

Comes to show this save state idea is good on paper but very problematic in practice. What's more since ios doesn't have windows, if you open a file in pages, then pages will take you directly to that file, it won't pop back up 4 windows of docs you are working on. So remembering the state is quite a different ball game in the mac.

I am a firm believer that the os x leadership doesn't known their behind from their elbow if they haven't figured these very important details out, and that's why lion in terms of implementing these "advances" and in terms of overall bugginess and refinement is such a sordid mess.

Apparently they just went ok, they ll remember their state as in ios. Yeah, but like I said,in ios (which isn't a windows based os) their state means that whatever new document opens (everywhere, in good reader, in pages, in office management app) it won't pop up 5 windows of what you were working on before, these will be in the background somewhere so you don't run the very real risk that opening a document in front of someone else will reveal to that person your whole work history. So right now users are in the unpleasant position of having to make double sure they've shut every document window in every app they were working on for fear that at any point they might try to open a new document in front of someone else they will share with them whatever else they had been working on.

But that's no big a deal, we 'll just get ocd over closing every window down instead of apple offering the choice that an app DOES NOT remember it's state by an EXPLICIT user controlled CHOICE.

And let me ask you something else, what's so special about an app remembering its state? If I want an app to remember it's state I hide it on the dock, if I shut an app, and re-open it I want to start with a clean state. Why is it important that an app remembers the way it was? Why not have an explicit command upon opening to revert to its past state, as in say open all previous windows and tabs in safari, or open the last open documents in other apps? What's so great about an app starting up to where I left off instead of starting up anew and letting me navigate my way to where I d like to take it. Cause to me it just sounds like a bs ios loan this "state remembering" thing with no real advantage just problems.

And it's the same with re-opening all windows upon restart? Why the hell would I want that? If I want that why not put the mac to sleep, or to some hibernate mode? When people restart an os one of the reasons they do it is precisely because they want it to start without all the mess of open windows and apps they had on before, otherwise why not just put it to some power efficient sleep mode?

What's so different about these systems that it makes sense on one but not the other?

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Oh absolutely nothing, that's why all macs are touch enabled too, ohhh wait, they are not, because didn't Steve Jobs himself say what works well there might not work well here? See above for the rest.