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blow45
Apr 6, 2012, 05:47 PM
I 'll quote another user, almost verbatim, because he's expressed all my concerns too very well. Apple have a lot of work to do to provide options and fix the crap they introduced with lion. To what the op said I will add:



-fixing and providing options for mission control

-fixing showing recent files in click and hold on dock and in app expose, allow the option to only show recent files within the file, open recent menus. And not either not keep recent files at all or show them on a right click or click and hold (what a huge privacy intrusion this can be to just right click with someone else around you and they 'll be able to see whatever you 've been doing recently in every app...)

-Restore in app expose in click and hold. Disallow entry to the apple campus for a month to the idiot who decided that click and hold would act the same as right click (cmd click) thus making these two different ways to interact with the dock act the very same way.

-fixing the smb shares issue for connecting to a standard windows network

-fixing mail memory leaks that make it go up to 2gb of usage

-fixing preview crashing (never seen preview crashing so much in any previous recent os x version), ----

-fixing, modifying contacts and calendar apps so they are not a ui and usability disaster,

-finally coming up with pixel doubling if they can't bring real resolution independence

-offering at some point some option to enlarge a few sets of os font in the interface such as the ones in menus, get info, in safari, in mail and a few more others instead of forcing vision impaired users to zoom in (distorting the heck out of the display) and out all the time.

-releasing an os that users won't have to wait until .4 version for it to be relative bug free.

-they DON'T however have to come up with some real backbone technological innovation such as a modern file system as zfs, we have NOT come to expect this of Apple inc. anymore, maybe we would have expected it from Apple Computer, but not Apple inc. So no sweat guys, keep hfs+ for another 10 years if you want.



Lion contains some very poor marketing/ios influenced ui choices, some poorly imagined, thought out and implemented ideas and at best some well intentioned ideas implemented very poorly. It lacks polish everywhere and has proven the buggiest release since pre tiger. If ms had put a 200 strong dev team to work on snow leopard I don't think they could have done a worse job.

So far they have remained as clueless and oblivious apparently to the right mess they have made with lion, and to be frank I don't think the head of OS X dev. team Creg Federichi (sp?) seems to be even remotely adequate for his position. Tim Cook should go Steve Jobs on him, and just replace the guy. Because he's done a very bad job indeed. Sadly I don't think apple have come to their senses with mountain lion. I am quite sure a lot of people from the team must have the same grievances but if the leadership isn't getting it they can't speak up.

Of course there are also those in apple's demographic here who adore the notes app (I guess it's good that after waiting for it for years our mails are not going to be mixed with our notes, makes for a welcome change to not try to show an email to a colleague at work followed by a remember to buy condoms note on top...), notifications (thank you growl and android), twitter integration, and the new wallpaper...and to who ml and lion seem just fine and dandy. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. :)

So far Mountain Lion looks like a nice improvement. I like many of the new features. However, some features carried over from Lion need implementation improvements.

Apple is so close to having a really fantastic operating system. The Mac is on the verge of making huge market share gains. Unfortunately, a few easily fixed issues are blocking wider acceptance.


Versions - Great Idea, implementation needs refinement


Versions needs to provide users with an option to change default behavior for specific apps. Versions can be useful in Pages or Numbers but it can be a real irritant in Preview. An option to change Versions default behavior for a specific app could be placed inside of Get Info. My clients and I would love to have the ability to turn off versions for several apps.


Restore Save As along with Save A Version - Save As did two things easily, new name, new location. The new system of Duplicate, Save A Version and Export is not as easy or useful as Save As. Windows switchers in particular are irate over the loss of Save As.

Resume – Good Idea, implementation needs refinement

Resume needs to provide users with an option to change default behavior for specific apps. Resume can be useful in Safari but it can be a real irritant in Preview or Quicktime. An option to change Resume's default behavior for a specific app could be placed inside of Get Info. Clients will be satisfied with the ability to turn off Resume. (What if payroll was the last document open)?

Please See:

http://www.reghardware.com/2011/09/07/apple_mac_os_x_lion_the_nanny_os/


Automatic Application Termination - modify implementation

Automatic Termination needs an option to change system wide default behavior. Automatic Application Termination might be useful for some users but it can be a real irritant for experienced users. Clients frequently open up programs such as Grab and Preview and switch to them as necessary via the dock or command tab. These programs frequently don't have an open window, however, they are used for a minute or two several times an hour.

When the application automatically terminates without user permission, it is the same to the user as an application crash!

Please See http://vimeo.com/34711608


Reopen Windows Next Time

Option in System Preferences to eliminate “reopen windows next time”. (Reduce the frustration of having to recheck this option each time the computer is restarted). It would be nice if Mountain Lion would allow users to permanently set preferences so the question never appeared.

AutoSave

Initially, my clients and I thought this feature was going to be great. However, we have discovered that we work with a lot of files that we don't always want to save. PDF files, experimental photo modifications, trial letters etc. We really don't want all of these extra files cluttering up our computers. AutoSave needs to provide users with an option to change the default behavior for specific apps. AutoSave can be useful in Pages or Numbers but it can be a real irritant in Preview. An option
to change AutoSave default behavior for a specific app could be placed inside of Get Info. Clients will be satisfied with the ability to control AutoSave.


Restore option for colored icons in finder sidebar - Colored icons really help in providing tech support to clients.


Finder

Restore the option at the bottom of the finder window to show number of files selected and the Space available on the hard disk.


Restore Quick Look – zoom in on pdfs.


Columns that resize properly in “Kind View".


Optional restoration of scroll arrows

This is a major issue when the computer requires small steady input - photo and video editing, spreadsheets, databases etc.

Please see https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3252617?start=0&tstart=0



Senseotech
Apr 6, 2012, 10:40 PM
Cool story bro. Really though, if you find that much wrong with the OS, then why use it? Even better yet, why go about trumpeting that its a horrible OS, basically because you said so. The fact is, a large portion of users, from all proficiency levels, have no issues and complaints, and certainly not as many as this. What makes your opinion any more, or even less, valid, or subjective for that matter, than theirs?

blow45
Apr 7, 2012, 07:55 AM
Wrong on many counts. It's not because I said so, it's because a vast number of apple's user base has been saying so all over the web, if you are not smelling the coffee it doesn't mean it's not brewing. Also it's not because I said so, it's because I am making a case for it, if you don't agree with my opinion how about replying to my points with a counter opinion but with arguments? That's the whole point of the forum isn't it? Opinions and counter opinions. As far as objectivity goes, i can't see for example how poor smb compatibility introduced in lion creating problems with shared printers, finder access and search of smb networks is subjective and a matter of opinion. I can't see how memory leaks in mail and constant crashes in preview (also reported a lot elsewhere) are subjective opinions. Of course there's subjectivity in some of what I am saying but then hardly anything is objective strictly speaking.

Oh and save me the comment if the os is bad why use it. I am using it because it used to be great, it's the mess apple have made of it I don't like, not the os itself. I am also using it because apple despite having paid them a lot of money for (the crappy according to non other than SJ himself) mm decided that icloud would not be included in sl and required me to uphrade for basic device sync funtionality. OS X was the very reason I switched to mac a looooong time ago, the os x team needs to get their act together and address the problems they introduced for so many long time os x users as well as new users with lion effectively.

parapup
Apr 7, 2012, 08:28 AM
People keep trying to ignore how much OS X sucks lately but at the very least it is a fact that Apple has dropped the ball with last couple releases and it has gotten progressively worse. The instability got fixed a bit with dot releases but there are still some glaring issues - look up the thread where people complain about not being able to unlock system preferences for example.

Here is another experience - Lion is supposedly fully supported on Core 2 Macs. I have a MBP from 2007 that was running Leopard happily with its 2GB RAM. Then for some reason I feel I should put something more modern on it for the family to use - and I can't find my SL disks so I go with a USB install of Lion/10.7.3.

Boy was it a mistake - with 2GB RAM, 5400RPM HDD it is DOG slow - lanuchpad literally lacks any fluidity (its on 8600M for crying out loud), boot is slow, app opening is slow etc. Then I replace the HDD with a fast 7200RPM one and add a Gig of RAM. Still slow - some improvement but not usable yet - because for regular Mail/Firefox/iTunes load it is swapping with 3GB RAM!

So I finally put Windows 7 on it - comparatively, it flies. Had to jump through some hoops to get it installed - removing extra boot sector from ISO, hacking up the boot camp install from Lion as it isn't supported on x64 Windows for this machine etc. But in the end it was well worth it.

Apple really needs to get their act together.

Sdreed91
Apr 7, 2012, 09:26 AM
All I can say is that Apples money maker is the iPad and iOS devices and luckily for Apple the halo effect brings those people in to purchase Macs so it makes sense that Apple would want to have some similar features among of all its products as the halo effect users might expect. So the people that don't hate lion are probably those who were drawn in by other iOS devices. For the halo effect users the ones who would be brand new to a Mac probably love the features that are similar to their iOS counterparts.

blow45
Apr 7, 2012, 10:41 AM
Resume, autosave, auto terminate apps are all ios inspired but they haven't been implemented well on the mac. They need to have the option to be turned off and they have to be refined. No one is going to go, oh great this works like my ios device when they have ten previously opened quicktime windows pop back up to them. I work with a lot of other people in my job and I am always scared ******** of opening preview and having whatever pdf or image I was looking at pop back up to me, that pretty girls cleavage photo, the mag unrelated to work, etc. etc. It has to have an option to disable resume behavior. Don't they realize this already?

No one is going to go (since people are also coming from windows) oh great now I cannot save as and change name and location to save file, I ll duplicate instead then save the duplicate with another name then shut the original.

No one is going to go oh great, cmd click (right click) and click and hold have the same functionality and there's no way to see open windows of an app (except by double tap and hot corners) in an in app expose and people I might want to share a mac with or show them something on my mac can look at all my recent usage history simply via my cmd clicking an app to quit it.

Versions doesn't have an ios counterpart . Bugs and memory leaks are features more present than ever on os x, and not at all common so much on ios. I can handle the calendar looking like as ios app (sorta) even if it means it will make my workflow harder than it used to be on the mac, and I can handle the launchpad I can get out of the way. I cannot handle the lack of colour cues on the sidebar simply because apple marketing thinks it will attract more ios users. It won't.

The halo effect meant ios users were willing to give os x a try. I don't see how a monochromatic sidebar is going to make people go, uh, great, it looks like ios I like it. Even "side bars" (split screens as in mail and settings) use color cues (inbox, trash, archive all have colour cues in mail, as in settings too). Whoever has gotten into their heads that sidebars in OS X look more akin to ios if they are so incredibly hard to navigate without colour and look like a monochromatic mac circa 1980s simply has their head in said orifice I mentioned in the title of the thread.

To have to install windows 7 to your older mac for it not to be a dog, like another member said before is beyond sad for the current state of os x, and it's a slap in the face to os x that used to be so great. No wonder lion has been called os 10.7 vista. The things that make it good are whatever existed before in os x, the things that make it a pain in the a. to work with are whatever modifications (except kernel and security ones) apple made from snow leopard to leopard that are poorly implemented and anything but polished.

Ipods and ios didn't create a halo effect because people switched and os x looked like their ipod or iphone, but because they switched and found a powerful, effective and polished os with its own merits. Sharing some interface and os behavior elements is not a bad idea, but they have to be implemented well and according the different usage and requirements of a tablet/phone os and a computer os.

If they want to make os x so much like os x why didn't they go all touch on their desktop and macbook line as well since people are accustomed to it via ios? Because as Steve said we've tested this and it doesn't work for this type of device. Well they should take a long hard look at how well the ios cross pollination has worked for OS X and refine it. But this requires sound judgment. Nothing in the leadership of the os x team at the moment has demonstrated to me that sound judgement in the overall functionality of the os is something they are particularly good at. Gruber and Syracusa at ars technica can kiss their ass as much as they want to about how great lion is, their user base has been saying otherwise and they had better listen to them though at some point.

Sdreed91
Apr 7, 2012, 10:50 AM
I made no arguement against any of what you had posted. All I said was that the people that like lion are probably the people that don't know how OS X was before Lion. I didn't mean to attack any of what you had said. A disable resume feature would be great. I also don't like the monochromatic finder either. It's just well ugly. I was only trying to say that iOS users that might have been drawn in by the halo effect might appreciate some of the similarities. I meant no offense to any of what anyone else had previously said.

tkermit
Apr 7, 2012, 10:53 AM
So the people that don't hate lion are probably those who were drawn in by other iOS devices.

I jumped onboard the OS X train with Panther, and have found that each version of OS X (including Lion) has improved upon the previous one.



Resume, autosave, auto terminate apps are all ios inspired but they haven't been implemented well on the mac. They need to have the option to be turned off and they have to be refined. No one is going to go, oh great this works like my ios device when they have ten previously opened quicktime windows pop back up to them. I work with a lot of other people in my job and I am always scared ******** of opening preview and having whatever pdf or image I was looking at pop back up to me, that pretty girls cleavage photo, the mag unrelated to work, etc. etc. It has to have an option to disable resume behavior. Don't they realize this already?
My standard response to this is why you don't just close Preview/Quicktime windows (⌥⌘W or just ⌘W for a single window) instead of the whole app, since the system takes care of closing the app behind you automatically, once there are no more windows open.

Senseotech
Apr 7, 2012, 10:54 AM
I made no arguement against any of what you had posted. All I said was that the people that like lion are probably the people that don't know how OS X was before Lion. I didn't mean to attack any of what you had said. A disable resume feature would be great. I also don't like the monochromatic finder either. It's just well ugly. I was only trying to say that iOS users that might have been drawn in by the halo effect might appreciate some of the similarities. I meant no offense to any of what anyone else had previously said.

I've been using OS X since 10.3 and like Lion, so there goes that theory. Really, to complain that the lack of colored icons completely ruins your workflow??? Its called basic reading comprehension or, failing that, shape recognition. A small icon with colors and shaped like a document is no easier to see than a monochrome icon shaped like a document.

Sdreed91
Apr 7, 2012, 10:58 AM
I've been using OS X since 10.3 and like Lion, so there goes that theory. Really, to complain that the lack of colored icons completely ruins your workflow??? Its called basic reading comprehension or, failing that, shape recognition. A small icon with colors and shaped like a document is no easier to see than a monochrome icon shaped like a document.

I happen to love to lion. There are just a few things I don't like though. I love ML even more than lion. But there are just those two things that I don't exactly care for. But overall I find the almost all of the features in both lion and mountain lion to be pretty great. I also don't have a problem with workflow. I just wouldn't mind some colors. So no the black and white has not hindered my workflow at all.

But I can see that I'm already being attacked so I'll probably just quit here.

Senseotech
Apr 7, 2012, 11:08 AM
I happen to love to lion. There are just a few things I don't like though. I love ML even more than lion. But there are just those two things that I don't exactly care for. But overall I find the almost all of the features in both lion and mountain lion to be pretty great. I also don't have a problem with workflow. I just wouldn't mind some colors. So no the black and white has not hindered my workflow at all.

But I can see that I'm already being attacked so I'll probably just quit here.

I mistakingly mentioned the workflow issue thinking it was you, my apologies. And while I can say there are minor things I'm not fond of in Lion/ML, to accuse the dev team of being idiots, inept, or anything of the sort is just plain silly and childish. Also, to make this thread somewhat useful instead of just whining, you can disable resume on a per app basis with a short little terminal command, which I'm surprised no one has automated into a little app.

http://osxdaily.com/2011/08/01/turn-off-resume-per-app-in-mac-os-x-lion/

The command in question:


defaults write com.apple.Preview NSQuitAlwaysKeepsWindows -bool false

So now blow45 needn't worry about exposing that he looks at the pr0n on his work machine. :rolleyes:

Sdreed91
Apr 7, 2012, 11:16 AM
I mistakingly mentioned the workflow issue thinking it was you, my apologies. And while I can say there are minor things I'm not fond of in Lion/ML, to accuse the dev team of being idiots, inept, or anything of the sort is just plain silly and childish. Also, to make this thread somewhat useful instead of just whining, you can disable resume on a per app basis with a short little terminal command, which I'm surprised no one has automated into a little app.

http://osxdaily.com/2011/08/01/turn-off-resume-per-app-in-mac-os-x-lion/

The command in question:


defaults write com.apple.Preview NSQuitAlwaysKeepsWindows -bool false

So now blow45 needn't worry about exposing that he looks at the pr0n on his work machine. :rolleyes:

I meant no whining in any of my posts. Lion/ML have been great I believe. Resume doesn't exactly annoy me there are just a few times that turning the computer back on results in a million things opening right back up however, unlike blow I have nothing to hide. But I meant no whining or anything of that nature in any of my posts I was just trying to get in on the thread without being attacked. I also never accused the dev team of anything.

By the way thank you for the apology.

tkermit
Apr 7, 2012, 11:22 AM
Resume doesn't exactly annoy me there are just a few times that turning the computer back on results in a million things opening right back up

The problem with Resume is that it simply doesn't work as advertised yet. Its purpose is to get you back to the exact state you left the desktop at when you restarted/turned the computer off. In reality, that's not what is happening. Whenever you had an app still running, even if it didn't have any windows open, Resume will open a new window for that app. That's clearly counterproductive. I haven't heard any news whether improvements have been made in this regard with Mountain Lion. As it stands, it's not nearly as polished as it ought to be.

Senseotech
Apr 7, 2012, 11:24 AM
The problem with Resume is that it simply doesn't work as advertised yet. Its purpose is to get you back to the exact state you left the desktop at when you restarted/turned the computer off. In reality, that's not what is happening. Whenever you had an app still running, even if it didn't have any windows open, Resume will open a new window for that app. That's clearly counterproductive. I haven't heard any news whether improvements have been made in this regard with Mountain Lion.

I don't have that issue at all. Safari can be open with no windows, and upon restart, its open with no windows. Mail is the exact same way, if it had windows open, they appear, if it didn't then they don't.

blow45
Apr 7, 2012, 11:26 AM
I made no arguement against any of what you had posted. All I said was that the people that like lion are probably the people that don't know how OS X was before Lion. I didn't mean to attack any of what you had said. A disable resume feature would be great. I also don't like the monochromatic finder either. It's just well ugly. I was only trying to say that iOS users that might have been drawn in by the halo effect might appreciate some of the similarities. I meant no offense to any of what anyone else had previously said.

Points well taken. :) But you are not attacked here as you claim on a later post, so don't play the victim card. Apple's insistence on not correcting the problems they introduced with lion is under question here.

I've been using OS X since 10.3 and like Lion, so there goes that theory. Really, to complain that the lack of colored icons completely ruins your workflow??? Its called basic reading comprehension or, failing that, shape recognition. A small icon with colors and shaped like a document is no easier to see than a monochrome icon shaped like a document.

No others and myself have been making a series of points why our work flow is being compromised by lion, out of which you picked one. And you are wrong, basic ui science demands colour cues, hence colour cues are present in all split screen panes in ios too, and they were so in os x. That's why apple's own human interface guidelines insisted on colour cues. "Reading comprehension" should not be required when you want to access a sidebar, that's the whole point, that when you drag 20+ of your folders with customized colour icons in the sidebar they retain a miniaturized image of the customized folder and they don't all revert to a monochrome generic folder that you have to read through 20+ items to get to where you want to go in seconds.


So now blow45 needn't worry about exposing that he looks at the pr0n on his work machine. :rolleyes:
Maybe you need to get it up once in a while and look at porn yourself it might help in not making snarky comments (just post the terminal command) and claiming people who want side bars with colour cues as is the case in ios and was the case of os x lack "basic reading comprehension" skills.


My standard response to this is why you don't just close Preview/Quicktime windows (⌥⌘W or just ⌘W for a single window) instead of the whole app, since the system takes care of closing the app behind you automatically, once there are no more windows open.
Because apple is not my cyber nanny to think for me, if I want to free up resources quickly I want to quit the app or force quit it (and in preview in lion force quits are becoming a very common thing...) and then have the option to not have it NOT resume where I left off. Simple as that. I don't want to have to close all windows (as simple as it might be) and then quit the app or wait for the os to quit the app for me. Options should be available for resume to not be there to begin with and quitting to mean quitting and not resuming. There's no point for a system btw to autoquit an app taking 60mb with 8gbs of system memory, there might be a reason in a tablet os such as ios but not in os x.

roadbloc
Apr 7, 2012, 11:27 AM
OS X is total GUI disaster now. Packed with gimmicky features which do nothing but get in the way or confuse.

QuarterSwede
Apr 7, 2012, 11:28 AM
The problem with Resume is that it simply doesn't work as advertised yet. Its purpose is to get you back to the exact state you left the desktop at when you restarted/turned the computer off. In reality, that's not what is happening. Whenever you had an app still running, even if it didn't have any windows open, Resume will open a new window for that app. That's clearly counterproductive. I haven't heard any news whether improvements have been made in this regard with Mountain Lion. As it stands, it's not nearly as polished as it ought to be.
It works exactly as intended. What you seem to want it to do sounds a lot like waking from hibernation or sleep. Those already exist.

tkermit
Apr 7, 2012, 11:30 AM
I don't have that issue at all. Safari can be open with no windows, and upon restart, its open with no windows. Mail is the exact same way, if it had windows open, they appear, if it didn't then they don't.

Safari doesn't open a new window if one wasn't open before, but Mail definitely does for me (I just tried it again). As does Stickies.app for example. There are other Apple apps I seem to remember behaving like this but I would have to check. And unfortunately a lot of my 3rd party apps. I almost always see Word creating a new document, and the main window of 'The Hit List' opening.


It works exactly as intended.
Then it was intended to work inconsistently, i.e. some apps will reopen a window if one wasn't open before, others don't ?!


What you seem to want it to do sounds a lot like waking from hibernation or sleep. Those already exist.

Except that you are sometimes forced to restart for system updates for example. And then it would be nice to have a properly functioning Resume.

There's no point for a system btw to autoquit an app taking 60mb with 8gbs of system memory, there might be a reason in a tablet os such as ios but not in os x.

Which is why the process lingers on, and is only killed if all memory is used up

QuarterSwede
Apr 7, 2012, 11:37 AM
Then it was intended to work inconsistently, i.e. some apps will reopen a window if one wasn't open before, others don't ?!
I haven't had that issue and I log in and out quite often on a daily basis. This is the first I've heard of it.

tkermit
Apr 7, 2012, 11:40 AM
I haven't had that issue and I log in and out quite often on a daily basis. This is the first I've heard of it.

So if you leave both Safari and Mail running, each with no more windows open – what happens after logging out and in again, if you enable the option to "reopen windows when logging back in"

blow45
Apr 7, 2012, 11:45 AM
As as aside, can someone tell me is there's a terminal command to disable show recents history from cmd click or click and hold on the dock, and only have it within file open recent. Right now I can only "choose" to forgo all my recent files history to not have all the documents history appearing with a right click from the dock as far as I can tell.

So if you leave both Safari and Mail running, each with no more windows open – what happens after logging out and in again, if you enable the option to "reopen windows when logging back in"

bingo. :) They pop back up.


Which is why the process lingers on, and is only killed if all memory is used up

So your point about closing all windows instead of quitting doesn't stand if system resources are freed up only if the system has used up all it's memory and has already started page ins and outs. Am I not then justified to want to quit an app myself and free up the resources myself? All the more so since word with a few documents chrome and safari with 6-7 tabs each and memory leaks in mail can bring lion to its knees?

tkermit
Apr 7, 2012, 12:31 PM
So your point about closing all windows instead of quitting doesn't stand if system resources are freed up only if the system has used up all it's memory and has already started page ins and outs.
It happens much earlier than that – it wasn't quite correct how I worded that.


Am I not then justified to want to quit an app myself and free up the resources myself? All the more so since word with a few documents chrome and safari with 6-7 tabs each and memory leaks in mail can bring lion to its knees?

⌥⌘Q if you want the windows discarded, ⌘Q if you don't.

Mal
Apr 7, 2012, 01:24 PM
Wrong on many counts. It's not because I said so, it's because a vast number of apple's user base has been saying so all over the web, if you are not smelling the coffee it doesn't mean it's not brewing.

I'm just going to stop right here, no need for me to jump into the other parts of the discussion. This part, however, is flat-out absurd. The users (and haters who are not users) who are jumping on the bandwagon of "Lion/Mountain Lion sucks" are in the tiny minority. I doubt if they all refused to buy Macs ever again that the difference would even be noted on Apple's bottom line. That doesn't mean there aren't some valid points (though I do disagree with many of the complaints that I see), but don't even try to suggest that there's a massive uproar. They're a tiny, but extremely vocal, minority.

jW

Senseotech
Apr 7, 2012, 01:27 PM
I'm just going to stop right here, no need for me to jump into the other parts of the discussion. This part, however, is flat-out absurd. The users (and haters who are not users) who are jumping on the bandwagon of "Lion/Mountain Lion sucks" are in the tiny minority. I doubt if they all refused to buy Macs ever again that the difference would even be noted on Apple's bottom line. That doesn't mean there aren't some valid points (though I do disagree with many of the complaints that I see), but don't even try to suggest that there's a massive uproar. They're a tiny, but extremely vocal, minority.

jW

Exactly. And it makes perfect sense; the VAST majority of users who have no problems aren't going to come on here and post threads "OMG, its so awesome!!!!!1!!!" They're going to use the OS, love it, and not worry.

tkermit
Apr 7, 2012, 01:31 PM
-fixing and providing options for mission control

I'd welcome an option to ungroup windows. And I'd like to see the view for the spread gesture improved.



-fixing showing recent files in click and hold on dock and in app expose, allow the option to only show recent files within the file, open recent menus. And not either not keep recent files at all or show them on a right click or click and hold (what a huge privacy intrusion this can be to just right click with someone else around you and they 'll be able to see whatever you 've been doing recently in every app...)

Don't really see the "huge privacy intrusion" here. If you don't want people around you to see what you've been up to, you should just disable showing recent files in general. Having said that, Apple could provide a "defaults write" command for that I guess. I'm always a little weary when it comes to adding an option here and an option there, and suddenly you have the IE advanced settings panel in Windows.

http://f.cl.ly/items/3M360G1x1M2i3K3A2e3d/IE%20Advanced%20Settings.rev1.png


-Restore in app expose in click and hold.

I think it used to be also possible to use the scroll gesture on top of a dock icon to activate App Exposé. I'd kinda like to see both methods for activating app expose to return..


-fixing mail memory leaks that make it go up to 2gb of usage

Never experienced that myself. But I think we can all agree that that shouldn't happen.



-fixing preview crashing (never seen preview crashing so much in any previous recent os x version), ----

I must say I'm much less annoyed by Preview crashing in Lion to the point that I don't notice it much, simply because I get everything I had open back when I restart it, thanks to Resume. But, sure, nobody wants to see apps crashing.


-fixing, modifying contacts and calendar apps so they are not a ui and usability disaster,

I wouldn't call them a "usability disaster", but I'd like to see the 3-column-layout return in AB, and get the sidebar back in Calendar. I also don't care much for the whole skeuomorphic thing, but whatever, if it at least works the same.


-finally coming up with pixel doubling if they can't bring real resolution independence

Not quite sure what you mean, since the HiDPI modes are already usable under Lion, yet don't really serve a purpose without a 2x/4x resolution display.



-releasing an os that users won't have to wait until .4 version for it to be relative bug free.

Would be nice. This doesn't seem like a Lion specific issue though. In my opinion, Apple doesn't have a great track record there, period.


-they DON'T however have to come up with some real backbone technological innovation such as a modern file system as zfs, we have NOT come to expect this of Apple inc. anymore, maybe we would have expected it from Apple Computer, but not Apple inc. So no sweat guys, keep hfs+ for another 10 years if you want.

Sooner or later Apple needs a new file system. I'm fairly certain they're working on it.


So far they have remained as clueless and oblivious apparently to the right mess they have made with lion

Too much hyperbole for my taste.

to who ml and lion seem just fine and dandy.
ML doesn't seem like much of an upgrade over Lion (judging from Apple's advertising material), but I guess we'll have to see whether smaller improvements make it worth it and how much it ends up costing.

QuarterSwede
Apr 7, 2012, 01:41 PM
So if you leave both Safari and Mail running, each with no more windows open – what happens after logging out and in again, if you enable the option to "reopen windows when logging back in"
I stand corrected. Safari weirdly opened my last session (even though I closed every tab one by one) and then closed the window. Mail stayed open even though I had closed it.

I suppose I hadn't noticed because most of my main apps run fullscreen and I want them up when I log in. Many years of OS X use have given me the habit of closing whatever I don't want running when I log back in.

Sdreed91
Apr 7, 2012, 01:55 PM
I have to agree with others here that have said if something is great no one runs to the forums And makes posts saying who great anything is. But there are always plenty of people who wish to vocalize their complete dislike of Apples products or future direction and then assume they are outnumbering the people who do like lion and ML.

baryon
Apr 7, 2012, 02:33 PM
Cool story bro. Really though, if you find that much wrong with the OS, then why use it? Even better yet, why go about trumpeting that its a horrible OS, basically because you said so. The fact is, a large portion of users, from all proficiency levels, have no issues and complaints, and certainly not as many as this. What makes your opinion any more, or even less, valid, or subjective for that matter, than theirs?

Saying that most people don't have this many issues does not invalidate someone's complaint. How would you react if you went to Apple and told them about a faulty product, and they told you that they don't care since most people don't have the issue?

A large portion of users, from all proficiency levels, have loads of issues and complaints about the new Apple OSs.

And it will not be possible to stay with Snow Leopard forever, since computers go obsolete quickly and new Macs don't support Snow Leopard. The only way one can stay with Snow Leopard is if they stay with old hardware, will won't support new software soon. Sure, we can switch to Windows, but I personally think it's still better to use Lion than Windows. The worst thing though is that we have experienced what it's like to use a good OS (Snow Leopard), and going back a step is even more annoying this way.

blow45
Apr 7, 2012, 04:47 PM
I have to agree with others here that have said if something is great no one runs to the forums And makes posts saying who great anything is. But there are always plenty of people who wish to vocalize their complete dislike of Apples products or future direction and then assume they are outnumbering the people who do like lion and ML.

Excuse me but this is bs. I have run to the forums and marveled with even the prospect of a retina display on the ipad, and a few years before ipads release I was checking the site every week or so for news and speculating on apple's tablet because I was very aware that it would revolutionize a lot of the ways we are doing computing, and it would be a market defining device.

To make these kinds of blanket statements to account for the mess that is lion and the poor effort in developing and refining it that the os x team has put in is ludicrous. Not all people are professional whiners. When people were complaining about untreated glass on the imacs giving reflections and headaches they had a real usability problem that apple only recently will come to address.

When people were adopting snow leopard faster than any other os x release (despite having to go to a store to buy it instead of it being one click away from the app store, despite sl not being pimped with icloud as the only way to sync in the apple ecosystem after mm got cancelled) and the tech blogs and forums were almost universally very pleased with it, it was because snow leopard was a good product, a refinement of a very good os, leopard. Sure there were things on the list that users requested and didn't appear in sl (resolution independence which didn't even happen in lion for example) and minor points of discussion about but the the overall consensus was that sl was a good dot release of os x.

So get off your high horse and realize that apple's user base didn't suddenly go ape **** about lion because they are habitual whiners, they have done so because lion was a very buggy release, a release with very few real under the hood tech advancements (mostly security ones, and welcome ones btw) but an absolute mess in terms of ui choices. The innovations of lion such as autosave, versioning, mission control, save states etc. have been very dubious at best and even people who like or desire them (and I am not talking about habitual john gruber type apple ass kissers here) will admit (if they are honest enough) that they need to be implemented better than they already are and be refined.

There are tons of issues myself and others are facing on lion and I mentioned them in the first post. A good os is not an os where preview is as buggy and unstable as it had never been (never had preview crash on me so many times in os x) where mail goes into memory leaks that make it run up to 2gb of ram (happened to me four times across macs), were safari starts reloading tabs for no reason, and where smb print share, finder search, and adding shares to finder don't work well because apple decided to stop using (they couldn't what with the new gpl license there) samba and go with their own buggy smb2 1.0 implementation. We are talking here about core os system features that don't work well anymore, let alone all the new ui strangeness and ios loans we suffer through. And don't take my word for it, go to apple support forums and see what kind of bugs have come up and how apple are as per usual stonewalling the press and users are keeping their fingers crossed that at some point they 'll fix them.

But you can ignore this thread anyway if you don't agree... Or can you?

Let's see:

Just go click close tab, then hit the red close window button, shut down your mac, and as soon as you open your mac again safari will pop back up to you, your window will re-open, and there you 'll be once more reading my "whining" about lion. See. That's how great lion works.

Sdreed91
Apr 7, 2012, 04:59 PM
Excuse me but this is bs. I have run to the forums and marveled with even the prospect of a retina display on the ipad, and a few years before ipads release I was checking the site every week or so for news and speculating on apple's tablet because I was very aware that it would revolutionize a lot of the ways we are doing computing, and it would be a market defining device.

To make these kinds of blanket statements to account for the mess that is lion and the poor effort in developing and refining it that the os x team has put in is ludicrous. Not all people are professional whiners. When people were complaining about untreated glass on the imacs giving reflections and headaches they had a real usability problem that apple only recently will come to address.

When people were adopting snow leopard faster than any other os x release (despite having to go to a store to buy it instead of it being one click away from the app store, despite sl not being pimped with icloud as the only way to sync in the apple ecosystem after mm got cancelled) and the tech blogs and forums were almost universally very pleased with it, it was because snow leopard was a good product, a refinement of a very good os, leopard. Sure there were things on the list that users requested and didn't appear in sl (resolution independence which didn't even happen in lion for example) and minor points of discussion about but the the overall consensus was that sl was a good dot release of os x.

So get off your high horse and realize that apple's user base didn't suddenly go ape **** about lion because they are habitual whiners, they have done so because lion was a very buggy release, a release with very few real under the hood tech advancements (mostly security ones, and welcome ones btw) but an absolute mess in terms of ui choices. The innovations of lion such as autosave, versioning, mission control, save states etc. have been very dubious at best and even people who like or desire them (and I am not talking about habitual john gruber type apple ass kissers here) will admit (if they are honest enough) that they need to be implemented better than they already are and be refined.

There are tons of issues myself and others are facing on lion and I mentioned them in the first post. A good os is not an os where preview is as buggy and unstable as it had never been (never had preview crash on me so many times in os x) where mail goes into memory leaks that make it run up to 2gb of ram (happened to me four times across macs), were safari starts reloading tabs for no reason, and where smb print share, finder search, and adding shares to finder don't work well because apple decided to stop using (they couldn't what with the new gpl license there) samba and go with their own buggy smb2 1.0 implementation. We are talking here about core os system features that don't work well anymore, let alone all the new ui strangeness and ios loans we suffer through. And don't take my word for it, go to apple support forums and see what kind of bugs have come up and how apple are as per usual stonewalling the press and users are keeping their fingers crossed that at some point they 'll fix them.

Relax. I was merely agreeing that it is far more likely that we will hear about the higher complaint rate of something than we will of its successes. Take the new iPad for instance there are tons of threads about what is wrong very few about what is great. I in no way accused you of being a professional whiner. I didn't say what you said wasn't valid. I also never said your problems weren't real. I said I like lion and ML. Relax i meant in no way to offend you. No reason to play the victim card. I am far from riding a high horse, I was adding to the threads conversation.

blow45
Apr 7, 2012, 05:04 PM
Relax. I was merely agreeing that it is far more likely that we will hear about the higher complaint rate of something than we will of its successes. Take the new iPad for instance there are tons of threads about what is wrong very few about what is great. I in no way accused you of being a professional whiner. I didn't say what you said wasn't valid. I also never said your problems weren't real. I said I like lion and ML. Relax i meant in no way to offend you. No reason to play the victim card. I am far from riding a high horse, I was adding to the threads conversation.

yeah well you were placating me from page one, but then you come and claim here are always plenty of people who wish to vocalize their complete dislike of Apples products or future direction and then assume they are outnumbering the people who do like lion and ML. and you are ascribing the issues myself and others are having to a "complete dislike" of apple products.:cool:

q64ceo
Apr 15, 2012, 03:34 AM
You expect a company notorious for forgetting things like "cut and pasting" files and "undo move out of dock" to actually improve something?

s.horsfield
Apr 15, 2012, 01:47 PM
You can move files... Sure there is no key command but the feature still exists. Secondly wouldn't dragging out of the dock do this?

*LTD*
Apr 18, 2012, 08:12 AM
OS X is total GUI disaster now. Packed with gimmicky features which do nothing but get in the way or confuse.

What is this based on? Reality, or your personal anecdotes?

You mean Windows 8, right? Now THAT is shaping up to be a disaster. A case can certainly be made for that. Not even close for OS X Lion (and by implication Mountain Lion.)

OS X in its current form has sold more Macs than any other OS X variant in Apple's history. And were not talking about a universally-licensed OS here that sells almost by default. This is a closed OS, as part of a highly vetted and controlled ecosystem that runs on hardware that is comparably more expensive.

Further, the consumer satisfaction ratings for Macs tell more of the story.

belvdr
Apr 18, 2012, 12:44 PM
What is this based on? Reality, or your personal anecdotes?

You mean Windows 8, right? Now THAT is shaping up to be a disaster. A case can certainly be made for that. Not even close for OS X Lion (and by implication Mountain Lion.)

The same question can be asked for your statement as well.

OS X in its current form has sold more Macs than any other OS X variant in Apple's history. And were not talking about a universally-licensed OS here that sells almost by default. This is a closed OS, as part of a highly vetted and controlled ecosystem that runs on hardware that is comparably more expensive.

Further, the consumer satisfaction ratings for Macs tell more of the story.

No way. I believe many people got a Mac simply for the fact they liked their iOS device. My reasoning is the uptick of Mac sales tends to correlate very nicely to iOS sales.

When folks enjoy one product from a manufacturer, they tend to go back to that manufacturer for other things too. That very thing holds true for my employer and we see it all the time.

chrono1081
Apr 18, 2012, 01:03 PM
Cool story bro. Really though, if you find that much wrong with the OS, then why use it? Even better yet, why go about trumpeting that its a horrible OS, basically because you said so. The fact is, a large portion of users, from all proficiency levels, have no issues and complaints, and certainly not as many as this. What makes your opinion any more, or even less, valid, or subjective for that matter, than theirs?

This.

I mostly see "I don't know how to use my computer" when I read these threads.

Mac works fine for me and I know I do more with my machine than 99.5% of the users on Macrumors.

Not to mention people never seem to use this:

http://www.apple.com/feedback

Mattie Num Nums
Apr 18, 2012, 01:30 PM
Mac works fine for me and I know I do more with my machine than 99.5% of the users on Macrumors.

Cool Story Bro. :rolleyes:

The irony of your post.

Charcoalwerks
Apr 18, 2012, 02:01 PM
Is there any support yet for full screen apps on dual monitors with ML?

azpc
Apr 18, 2012, 02:16 PM
"OS X in its current form has sold more Macs than any other OS X variant in Apple's history. And were not talking about a universally-licensed OS here that sells almost by default."

Maybe I am unique, but I know of several hundred Macs that Apple has not sold because of issues with Lion. I can think of twenty clients who used to be Mac users that have gone back to Windows because of Lion. Now as a Mac user that pains me.

This is why I posted this email appeal to Apple here on Mac Rumors.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1354207

Apple is so close to having a really great OS. However, some features in Lion need implementation improvements before many users will switch from Snow Leopard or Windows 7.


Apple can resolve these issues by allowing user control over how these new features are implemented...

chrono1081
Apr 18, 2012, 02:23 PM
Cool Story Bro. :rolleyes:

The irony of your post.

Thats not really irony...

With people crying because they don't know how to use Mission Control, or because they don't like the new look of the calendar, or they haven't figured out versions its clear that its not that these features are bad, its that people have a failure to adapt.

If someone can't adapt to something new on a computer thats their own failure.

Mattie Num Nums
Apr 18, 2012, 02:36 PM
Thats not really irony...

With people crying because they don't know how to use Mission Control, or because they don't like the new look of the calendar, or they haven't figured out versions its clear that its not that these features are bad, its that people have a failure to adapt.

If someone can't adapt to something new on a computer thats their own failure.

Well seeing how it works for you, and you know the truth behind everything...

chrono1081
Apr 18, 2012, 03:05 PM
Well seeing how it works for you, and you know the truth behind everything...

Um...please reread it without taking it out of context. I stuck a comma in there to help out.

"Mac works fine for me, and I know I do more with my machine than 99.5% of the users on Macrumors."

Paradoxally
Apr 18, 2012, 06:08 PM
Um...please reread it without taking it out of context. I stuck a comma in there to help out.

"Mac works fine for me, and I know I do more with my machine than 99.5% of the users on Macrumors."

You can't possibly affirm that. That comment displays utter ignorance.

Neither can I affirm that I know what you do with your computer, but I'm 100% sure you don't know what the whole MR userbase does with their computers, so that figure is just highly hypothetical.

macbook pro i5
Apr 18, 2012, 06:59 PM
Wrong on many counts. It's not because I said so, it's because a vast number of apple's user base has been saying so all over the web, if you are not smelling the coffee it doesn't mean it's not brewing. Also it's not because I said so, it's because I am making a case for it, if you don't agree with my opinion how about replying to my points with a counter opinion but with arguments? That's the whole point of the forum isn't it? Opinions and counter opinions. As far as objectivity goes, i can't see for example how poor smb compatibility introduced in lion creating problems with shared printers, finder access and search of smb networks is subjective and a matter of opinion. I can't see how memory leaks in mail and constant crashes in preview (also reported a lot elsewhere) are subjective opinions. Of course there's subjectivity in some of what I am saying but then hardly anything is objective strictly speaking.

Oh and save me the comment if the os is bad why use it. I am using it because it used to be great, it's the mess apple have made of it I don't like, not the os itself. I am also using it because apple despite having paid them a lot of money for (the crappy according to non other than SJ himself) mm decided that icloud would not be included in sl and required me to uphrade for basic device sync funtionality. OS X was the very reason I switched to mac a looooong time ago, the os x team needs to get their act together and address the problems they introduced for so many long time os x users as well as new users with lion effectively.

What "vast number of apples user base" are you talking about,it runs EVEN faster on my 2011 mac book pro.

atMac
Apr 18, 2012, 09:25 PM
Why do some people have a problem seeing how whats works for them is broken in another persons opinion? It's called opinion people. Not having an open mind about it is what gives Mac users their "fanboy" and "arrogant" tags when dealing with the rest of the tech community.

If Windows works great for another person then great.
If someone sees problems with the choices made in OS X then great.
If you bash a person for stating their opinion then then problem is you.

jameslmoser
Apr 18, 2012, 09:34 PM
Why do some people have a problem seeing how whats works for them is broken in another persons opinion? It's called opinion people. Not having an open mind about it is what gives Mac users their "fanboy" and "arrogant" tags when dealing with the rest of the tech community.

If Windows works great for another person then great.
If someone sees problems with the choices made in OS X then great.
If you bash a person for stating their opinion then then problem is you.

couldn't have said this better myself.... believe me I've tried! :)

----------

What "vast number of apples user base" are you talking about,it runs EVEN faster on my 2011 mac book pro.

I'm one of them. Lion performs horribly on every system I have tried it on... including machines released since Lion.

wikus
Apr 18, 2012, 10:38 PM
I hate Lion.

The absence of all windows Expose was the first sign and the only sign I needed to get rid of this awful OS. No option to ungroup windows when Mission Control is activated is by far Apple most ridiculous decision... yes, even more than making that four hundred dollar box of crap called the iPod Hi-Fi.

Secondly, Lion is really laggy. On a fresh install with a 2.3ghz Core i7 processor I was seeing jittery animation when selecting tabs in system preferences, window resizing was slow, etc. The whole OS feels like a Beta release. I would expect this kind of lag on an old and cheap Android phone running eclair, but NOT on a brand new laptop with a high end mobile processor.

I got rid of Lion and its recovery partition. Havent looked back (or even considered it) at Lion since switching to Snow Leopard 10.6.8; far more stable from all the horror stories I've read, its definitely faster and uses less RAM, but more importantly, it has Expose.

ClassObject
Apr 18, 2012, 11:35 PM
I hate windows. Windows sucks and I will use any version of mac os before winblows. I will use linux, smartos, or even a chromebook before windows. I really wish they'd fix windows.

jameslmoser
Apr 19, 2012, 01:08 AM
I hate windows. Windows sucks and I will use any version of mac os before winblows. I will use linux, smartos, or even a chromebook before windows. I really wish they'd fix windows.

And this is relevant to this thread (site?) how?

Mac32
Apr 19, 2012, 08:52 AM
FWIW, I think blow45 is right on the money. All his points are very well thought out, and personally I'm sticking with Snow Leopard which I find to be a truly great OS. Lion, not so much. It's as it has been stated already in this thread:
With Lion, Apple started to introduce gimmicky nonsense features that hinders and complicates the work flow, which is why I ditched Microsoft Windows in the first place. Resume, autosave, versions etc..etc.. It's all change for change sake, not because it is an improvement.
Sure it looks good during an Powerpoint presentation, "look we've got so and so many new features in Lion!", at the end of the day...Lion took several steps backwards IMO, not to mention that Lion is noticably more resources hungry, eats up much more ram and more battery than Snow Leopard.
Nope, I'm sticking to Snow Leopard for now. Apple better change or drastically improve most of the new Lion "features" in ML, but I'm not very optimistic about this..

Lets keep iOS away from our Macs. Quite frankly, I think the iPad is overrated anyway. It's made for consumption, not production.

macbook pro i5
Apr 19, 2012, 04:13 PM
couldn't have said this better myself.... believe me I've tried! :)

----------



I'm one of them. Lion performs horribly on every system I have tried it on... including machines released since Lion.

How much RAM and what processer is your machine?

ixodes
Apr 19, 2012, 04:31 PM
I jumped onboard the OS X train with Panther, and have found that each version of OS X (including Lion) has improved upon the previous one.
I've been using Apple computers since System 7. Nearly every upgrade Apple has done to the OS has been quite good.

I'm really enjoying 10.6.8, but find Lion a bit disappointing. It came loaded on my 2011 MBA and for my purposes (work and personal usage), there's nothing to get excited about.

The plan I have is to give it time before deciding if I am going to install it on the rest of my Macs. Hopefully future updates will make it appealing and compelling enough to migrate to for my day to day use.

ClassObject
Apr 19, 2012, 10:29 PM
And this is relevant to this thread (site?) how?

You'll figure it out. Or not.

McKs
Apr 20, 2012, 10:32 AM
In DP3, we can reenable a don't save prompt. The wording is different, but autosave on closing a file without any kind of confirmation is effectively stopped with this option enabled.

Still no save as..., but I can do the jump through hoop and duplicate thing.

I'm truly excited, as this is the main reason my work-machine is still on 10.6.8.
Bring it on Apple!

InuNacho
Apr 20, 2012, 10:48 AM
In DP3, we can reenable a don't save prompt. The wording is different, but autosave on closing a file without any kind of confirmation is effectively stopped with this option enabled.

Still no save as..., but I can do the jump through hoop and duplicate thing.

I'm truly excited, as this is the main reason my work-machine is still on 10.6.8.
Bring it on Apple!

Finally!

klaxamazoo
Apr 20, 2012, 12:18 PM
In DP3, we can reenable a don't save prompt. The wording is different, but autosave on closing a file without any kind of confirmation is effectively stopped with this option enabled.

Still no save as..., but I can do the jump through hoop and duplicate thing.

I'm truly excited, as this is the main reason my work-machine is still on 10.6.8.
Bring it on Apple!

Thanks goodness. That makes my work a lot easier to do.

jameslmoser
Apr 20, 2012, 01:00 PM
How much RAM and what processer is your machine?

It wasn't a RAM issue. The most powerful machine I tried it on was a 2009 Mac Pro.

RAM: 16GB 1066 MHz DDR3,8 core (2009 Mac Pro)
Processor: 2 x 2.93 GHz Quad-Core Xeon

It ran "ok", but no where near as nicely as Snow Leopard. I haven't tried 10.7.3 on it, but I did try 10.7.2 when it was launched, too.

Besides, for the "features" that Lion brought, I should not have had to install more RAM in any of my machines to use it.

----------

You'll figure it out. Or not.

Oh will I... gee I can't wait...:rolleyes:

macbook pro i5
Apr 20, 2012, 04:24 PM
It wasn't a RAM issue. The most powerful machine I tried it on was a 2009 Mac Pro.

RAM: 16GB 1066 MHz DDR3,8 core (2009 Mac Pro)
Processor: 2 x 2.93 GHz Quad-Core Xeon

It ran "ok", but no where near as nicely as Snow Leopard. I haven't tried 10.7.3 on it, but I did try 10.7.2 when it was launched, too.

Besides, for the "features" that Lion brought, I should not have had to install more RAM in any of my machines to use it.

----------



Oh will I... gee I can't wait...:rolleyes:

Oh wow looks like lion really is bad for you:(

blow45
Apr 21, 2012, 07:33 PM
In DP3, we can reenable a don't save prompt. The wording is different, but autosave on closing a file without any kind of confirmation is effectively stopped with this option enabled.

Still no save as..., but I can do the jump through hoop and duplicate thing.

I'm truly excited, as this is the main reason my work-machine is still on 10.6.8.
Bring it on Apple!

Why are you getting so excited about? For them finally coming sort of to their senses and fixing their bs? And what's going to happen to pre 2007 macs that can either have sl and no icloud or stick to lion's bugs with icloud? Finally they enabled the option to not save a file you don't want to save, instead of the nanny os saving for you the changes you don't want to save...

Save as has got to come back and versioning as default has got to be a user enabled option as well on a per app and a per document basis. If I don't want os x to version sensitive documents I should be able to choose not to on a per document basis, if someone doesn't want ANY versioning in an app they should be able to opt out as well.

And save as has got to come back, duplicate, wait for window to open, save, close original file, keep new file, is simply not acceptable as work flow. As many people have pointed out save as did too things very well different name, different location via one click or a keyboard shortcut. If they think they got it so right with duplicate let's see them giving an option and counting how many people stick with duplicate and how many go with save as. I would wager not more than 15% sticks with duplicate.

They still have their head pretty firmly in the sun don't shine territory and of course it's encouraging that they are dragging it out begrudgingly but we can't come to the point of ms users circa 5 years ago of actually celebrating their correcting gross errors in the os that they introduced to begin with... but sadly that's the point we've come to at os x's current stage. Which is very sad indeed because some of us didn't switch to macs because of the itoys (ipad excepted which is not an itoy but a category defining revolutionary device) but because of how good, versatile, and effective os x (once the world's most advanced os, not anymore though) was.

To have come to a stage where with a couple of word and excel documents, preview with a few pdfs (and btw, what's with the bugs with preview, crashing after print commands..), and a couple of 7-8 tab browser windows on a 4gb mac (a recently bought mini for example) it runs like a dog and beachballs is a pretty pathetic evolution, albeit a good one for obsoleting older macs and making people buy new machines from apple.

McKs
Apr 22, 2012, 12:44 AM
Why are you getting so excited about? For them finally coming sort of to their senses and fixing their bs?

Yes. This is Apple were talking about. They generally make great stuff, but when they screw up, it takes a while to correct it, if they do it all.
The fact that they are experimenting with this stuff in ML now I find encouraging.
I guess optimism is a hard concept for you.

blow45
Apr 22, 2012, 12:18 PM
Yes. This is Apple were talking about. They generally make great stuff, but when they screw up, it takes a while to correct it, if they do it all.
The fact that they are experimenting with this stuff in ML now I find encouraging.
I guess optimism is a hard concept for you.

That has nothing to do with optimism or pessimism whatsoever. If you screw up hard at something and you have most people on your back about it you can't but fix it if you are a for profit company. Let's see if they are going to correct the smb shares issue that's an even bigger screw up and one that doesn't involve a simply better and rational ui choice but actual coding.

Sdreed91
Apr 22, 2012, 02:09 PM
I couldn't help but notice that the iPad is considered a revolutionary device and not an iToy. But I have to argue that the smart phone market would not be what it is today without Apple's revolutionary iPhone.

ElectricSheep
Apr 22, 2012, 03:44 PM
In DP3, we can reenable a don't save prompt. The wording is different, but autosave on closing a file without any kind of confirmation is effectively stopped with this option enabled.

Still no save as..., but I can do the jump through hoop and duplicate thing.

I'm truly excited, as this is the main reason my work-machine is still on 10.6.8.
Bring it on Apple!

Don't know if this is new with DP3, but hold down the option key and "Duplicate" becomes "Save As...". At least, in TextEdit, Preview, and Pages.

blow45
Apr 22, 2012, 05:42 PM
more signs that they are coming out for some air finally, now can they set the option key to bring up duplicate and have save as, as standard.

@sdreed, the ipad was put on hold for the iphone to appear because the tech wasn't there yet and the iphone was easier to promote in the cell phone market. Job's pride and joy was and always had been the tablet, he knew that in order to make it work people had to become adjusted first to touch interfaces and os's on a phone, because more people buy phones than tablet devices they can't see a purpose for, as witnessed by oh about 80% of users here asking yeah but what will I need an ipad for months and weeks before its release. Touch screen phones where coming to the market (the lg prada phone was one of the first), apple just pushed the market harder. But multi touch tablets like the ipad where not even a product category, people didn't even see a purpose for them. That's why the real revolution is the ipad, not the iphone.

The ipad's larger screen brings out the versality of the touch interface to design any input on it. Phones with buttons despite going out of fashion are still very good phones, and for some uses buttons have on a phone are actually much better in terms of ease of use when combined with a touch screen than touch screens alone, esp. when current ones don't have tactile feedback.

tkermit
Apr 22, 2012, 05:59 PM
Don't know if this is new with DP3, but hold down the option key and "Duplicate" becomes "Save As...". At least, in TextEdit, Preview, and Pages.

So how does it work (since I assume documents are still being autosaved)? Does it automatically revert the changes made to the original document ?

InuNacho
Apr 22, 2012, 10:52 PM
Why are you getting so excited about?

The fact that Lion truly is Apple's Vista.

chrono1081
Apr 22, 2012, 11:01 PM
The fact that Lion truly is Apple's Vista.

Not even close. Lion works, Vista didn't (pre-service pack 1). It took months before a fix was released to be able to transfer large amounts of data from one drive to another.

The only people crying about Lion are those who can't adapt to a change in the computer system.

InuNacho
Apr 22, 2012, 11:27 PM
Not even close. Lion works, Vista didn't (pre-service pack 1). It took months before a fix was released to be able to transfer large amounts of data from one drive to another.

The only people crying about Lion are those who can't adapt to a change in the computer system.

Whats the difference between transferring large amounts of data and abysmal battery coupled with a burnt scrotum?

Obviously the people crying are making a large enough presence to sway Apple's stubbornness and return old features.

chrono1081
Apr 23, 2012, 12:38 AM
Whats the difference between transferring large amounts of data and abysmal battery coupled with a burnt scrotum?

Obviously the people crying are making a large enough presence to sway Apple's stubbornness and return old features.

I assume you are talking about heat and battery? None of which I, or anyone else I know has a problem with.

Not to mention people crying of forums mean nothing. If its not send through the official channel:

http://www.apple.com/feedback

Its 100% safe to assume that Apple is unaware of it.

I go there at least monthly to ask for updated OpenGL implementations.

blow45
Apr 23, 2012, 01:14 PM
@inu
exactly.

Not even close. Lion works, Vista didn't (pre-service pack 1). It took months before a fix was released to be able to transfer large amounts of data from one drive to another.

The only people crying about Lion are those who can't adapt to a change in the computer system.

I had (sadly) installed and used vista extensively and I didn't come across that. Maybe it was the case and I didn't come across it. Now tell us when is apple going to come up with a fix to allow users to connect properly and quickly and be able to search smb shares, like a sub $300 netbook does? Because I would think that accessing an industry standard network interface in 2012 would be possible on a mac.

What utter rubbish your second "point" is... Apparently those people that can't "adapt" are pushing apple to fix their crap implementation and offer the option for "save as" via pressing and holding cmd, and the option to stop autosaving a document by default upon closing an application. So congratulate yourself for "adapting".

Jagardn
Apr 23, 2012, 06:41 PM
@inu
exactly.



I had (sadly) installed and used vista extensively and I didn't come across that. Maybe it was the case and I didn't come across it. Now tell us when is apple going to come up with a fix to allow users to connect properly and quickly and be able to search smb shares, like a sub $300 netbook does? Because I would think that accessing an industry standard network interface in 2012 would be possible on a mac.

What utter rubbish your second "point" is... Apparently those people that can't "adapt" are pushing apple to fix their crap implementation and offer the option for "save as" via pressing and holding cmd, and the option to stop autosaving a document by default upon closing an application. So congratulate yourself for "adapting".

Easy solution. Sell all the apple stuff that you apparently despise. Buy a sub $300 netbook and live happily ever after.

blow45
May 1, 2012, 08:10 PM
Easy solution. Sell all the apple stuff that you apparently despise. Buy a sub $300 netbook and live happily ever after.

You are the target audience for apple these days, you are exactly the kind of person they want for their user base, the kind that will attack other users' real os problems with sarcasm and derision so they won't be bothered to work more or employ more people to develop better software while they sit on a pile of cash that's more than you, your family, your friends, and their families would make in a 1000 lifetimes... Bravo!

Anthony La
May 1, 2012, 09:35 PM
more signs that they are coming out for some air finally, now can they set the option key to bring up duplicate and have save as, as standard.

Do it on your own; you now have a choice (again). Set "Save As..." to Command+Shift+S in the Keyboard preferences and it should remain always visible. I assume this would work because the Keyboard Shortcuts function does that for every other hidden option (in Lion).

Meanwhile I'll stick with Duplicate.

blow45
May 1, 2012, 10:35 PM
Do it on your own; you now have a choice (again). Set "Save As..." to Command+Shift+S in the Keyboard preferences and it should remain always visible. I assume this would work because the Keyboard Shortcuts function does that for every other hidden option (in Lion).

Meanwhile I'll stick with Duplicate.

Thanks I'll try it out. I hope they make it an option too in lion, because duplicate sucks, and some systems won't be able to have ml as apple is obsoleting them. Not thanks for downrating my post and uprating the other guy's sarcasm on top. And you can be my guest and stick with duplicate since you like the workflow of duplicate, pop (wait for it) another window open, save it as something, close previous window. I don't have an issue with others complicating their lives, I have an issue with self evident bad (ui) design being imposed on me by apple with no option to change it and having to listen to other's sarcasm here on top of it because they are somehow self appointed apple apologists that if apple tomorrow put out a big pile of dog crap called it icrap and priced it at $2000 they 'd still find some way to advocate that it isn't s***.

edit: thanks for downrating me again, it's rather in bad taste when the only people here talking about this are you and me to do it you know, you might as well reply, I am not sticking -1 to your posts when I reply to you, go easy on the rating thing buddy.

slb
May 1, 2012, 10:44 PM
edit: thanks for downrating me again, it's rather in bad taste when the only people here talking about this are you and me to do it you know, you might as well reply, I am not sticking -1 to your posts when I reply to you, go easy on the rating thing buddy.

Stop obsessing over post ratings. Stop complaining so much about memory consumption and other bugs in a beta.

PurrBall
May 1, 2012, 10:52 PM
I think this new option will make a lot of people happy :)

blow45
May 1, 2012, 11:00 PM
@purrball Finally, looks good! if they could lose the linen background it would be great, but I can do with it too. To the chagrin of the apologists here and the others who don't have anything better to do, than deride those who are critical of apple and are demanding more options, and all those who say apple doesn't read forums it seems like we are making some progress here for the better. Kudos to them for listening as they should and they should be decent enough to bring these options to lion too via an upgrade, all the more so since pre 2007 macs (by and large) won't be able to run ml.

Stop obsessing over post ratings. Stop complaining so much about memory consumption and other bugs in a beta.

The memory consumption issues my friend are a lion thing, that I have yet to see apple addressing in either lion or ml, and I have a sneaking suspicion they won't because apparently and as per apple's policy these days they won't fix something by technologically advancing their os if they can offload it on the hardware - the hardware here being the ssd. Go read the relevant threads at apple forums to understand what I am talking about because it will take me a while to get technical here. It's goodbye then to memory management on hard disk macs. And this is a win win for them, slower systems with hard drives more people buy current macs with ssds.

OS X has memory management problems at its core and there are ways to address them with better algorithms that others have been implementing some time ago (sun for example), and it pisses me off to no avail that whatever os improvement would mean older macs get a better chance to be long lasting pro machines it's a no no for apple. Macs are going the forced obsoletion way following the trend of i-devices.

That's not the apple I was accustomed to, they were never before so addicted to making money at the expense of their user base. And they might be able to hide it from the average joe who they rip off, but they can't hide it from those who have a clue.

As for post ratings, I don't care about them, I care as much that when someone replies to me they don't downrate me at the same time, because it's in bad taste.

Sdreed91
May 4, 2012, 02:03 PM
@purrball Finally, looks good! if they could lose the linen background it would be great, but I can do with it too. To the chagrin of the apologists here and the others who don't have anything better to do, than deride those who are critical of apple and are demanding more options, and all those who say apple doesn't read forums it seems like we are making some progress here for the better. Kudos to them for listening as they should and they should be decent enough to bring these options to lion too via an upgrade, all the more so since pre 2007 macs (by and large) won't be able to run ml.



The memory consumption issues my friend are a lion thing, that I have yet to see apple addressing in either lion or ml, and I have a sneaking suspicion they won't because apparently and as per apple's policy these days they won't fix something by technologically advancing their os if they can offload it on the hardware - the hardware here being the ssd. Go read the relevant threads at apple forums to understand what I am talking about because it will take me a while to get technical here. It's goodbye then to memory management on hard disk macs. And this is a win win for them, slower systems with hard drives more people buy current macs with ssds.

OS X has memory management problems at its core and there are ways to address them with better algorithms that others have been implementing some time ago (sun for example), and it pisses me off to no avail that whatever os improvement would mean older macs get a better chance to be long lasting pro machines it's a no no for apple. Macs are going the forced obsoletion way following the trend of i-devices.

That's not the apple I was accustomed to, they were never before so addicted to making money at the expense of their user base. And they might be able to hide it from the average joe who they rip off, but they can't hide it from those who have a clue.

As for post ratings, I don't care about them, I care as much that when someone replies to me they don't downrate me at the same time, because it's in bad taste.


The features that are now brought back in ML, I imagine will not be added to Lion. I say this only because if the features everyone wants are only available on one OS people will upgrade and Apples earns more sales. Just speculating of course, yet that is what I imagine will happen.

nuckinfutz
May 4, 2012, 02:35 PM
John Siracus on Automatic Reference Counting in Lion (http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7.ars/10)

My emphasis added


Apple has done a tremendous amount of work to modernize its development platform, including completely replacing its compiler, overhauling its IDE, and adding features and new syntax to the Objective-C language itself.

All of these things are great, but none address my specific concerns about memory management. Apple did eventually see fit to add garbage collection to Objective-C, but my fear that Apple wouldn't really commit to garbage collection in Objective-C turned out to be well-founded. Today, years after the introduction of this feature, very few of Apple's own applications use garbage collection.




More :

There's a good reason for this. Runtime garbage collection is simply a poor fit for Objective-C. For all its syntactic simplicity and long, distinguished history, the C programming language is actually a surprisingly complex beast, especially when it comes to memory management.

In summation :


Long story short: garbage collection for Objective-C is out. (It's still supported in Lion, but I wouldn't count on Apple putting a tremendous amount of effort into it going forward.

Automatic Reference Counting (ARC (http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#releasenotes/ObjectiveC/RN-TransitioningToARC/Introduction/Introduction.html))


To understand how ARC works, start by picturing a traditional Objective-C source code file written by an expert Cocoa programmer. The retain, release, and autorelease messages are sent in all the right places and are in perfect balance.

Now imagine editing that source code file, removing every instance of the retain, release, and autorelease messages, and changing a single build setting in Xcode that instructs the compiler to put all the appropriate memory management calls back into your program when the source code is compiled. That's ARC. It's just what the name says: traditional Cocoa reference counting, done automatically.

More :

ARC versus garbage collection

Apple's Objective-C garbage collection came with some drawbacks. As alluded to earlier, the programmer has little control over when the garbage collector will run, making object reclamation non-deterministic. A garbage-collected application with a memory management bug may crash or not depending on when the collector actually runs.

Value Prop

ARC offers a very different value proposition. To start, it suffers from none of the disadvantages of Objective-C's runtime garbage collection. ARC is deterministic; all the memory management code is baked into the executable and does not change at runtime. Memory management is integrated directly into the program flow, rather than being done in batches periodically. This prevents execution stalls, and it can also reduce the high water mark.

I'd argue against statements that Apple isn't working on memory management. In fact it was well known 8 months ago via this review that Apple in fact had decided against going forward with Garbage Collection and was moving towards ARC. It may take another couple of revisions of OS X but any gap between OS X and other OS should be shortened rather quickly.

blackhand1001
May 4, 2012, 07:29 PM
I've been using OS X since 10.3 and like Lion, so there goes that theory. Really, to complain that the lack of colored icons completely ruins your workflow??? Its called basic reading comprehension or, failing that, shape recognition. A small icon with colors and shaped like a document is no easier to see than a monochrome icon shaped like a document.

I guess you have never instructed a client on how to do something over the phone. It makes things much more difficult to explain to someone over the phone.

----------

Not even close. Lion works, Vista didn't (pre-service pack 1). It took months before a fix was released to be able to transfer large amounts of data from one drive to another.

The only people crying about Lion are those who can't adapt to a change in the computer system.

Vista in its current state is faster and more organized then lion is at this moment. Vista was not as bad as people made it out to be even when it first came out.

blow45
May 4, 2012, 09:39 PM
@nukin

A couple of os x iterations? That's not working towards memory management, that's not allocating enough resources to work on memory management... At least apple's suppliers are working to provide even better hardware to make up for it... Btw the article you posted doesn't address problems within the kernel. Lion is slow to release memory for some reason and thus it's a memory hog. What you posted is irrelevant to this.:)

Now we come to the 65,536 byte question. Does ARC put Apple back on an even footing with its competitors when it comes to programming language abstraction? The answer, I'm afraid, is no. ARC takes care of almost all the mundane Objective-C memory management tasks, but everything outside of Objective-C remains as it was. Furthermore, ARC does very little to address the other pillar of modern, high-level programming: memory safety.

John Syracusa wrote the most ass kissing review of lion on the web btw...

hkim1983
May 5, 2012, 12:36 PM
I'm finding a lot of people defending Lion (and now ML) are missing the crux of the two main arguments being presented by the objectors:

-Change is being implemented purely for the sake of change, and not for the sake of increased productivity. This is bad because it can result in a loss of productivity, which is exactly what is happening for these users. I have yet to read a coherent response that defends these changes in Lion that isn't along the lines of: "well, it works for me, maybe something is wrong with YOU".

-The change is ok, but it's currently poorly implemented and needs to be improved upon. Again, I have yet to read a response that legitimately argues against this that isn't along the lines of the rubbish I stated above.

It almost seems like the defenders are feeling defensive about liking something without any rational behind it (there's nothing wrong with this per say), and thus feel the need to justify their irrationality with a "psuedo rational" argument, which I have seen fail with a 100% rate. If someone can direct me to responses that go against what I have seen in my limited time browsing these forums (I sadly do not have unlimited time to keep track of all mac forums on the internet), please feel free to, I am open to hearing a good stance on the other side of the fence. As it stands however, the objectors in my eyes, are making you guys look like fools with the wool over your eyes.

Apple seems to be finally realizing this themselves by slowly giving back what the objectors are arguing for...if that isn't a sign of defeat, I don't know what is. Apple is notorious for (mostly) ignoring objectors in the past, so this is something worth noting (and I have been using Mac OS since System 6, man, it was awful back then).

Mal
May 5, 2012, 02:26 PM
I'm finding a lot of people defending Lion (and now ML) are missing the crux of the two main arguments being presented by the objectors:

I don't know how many people are missing any of these arguments. Most of the time, when you think people are ignoring arguments, it simply means that they're not agreeing, no matter how obvious you think those arguments are (and they're probably not as cut-and-dry as you think).

-Change is being implemented purely for the sake of change, and not for the sake of increased productivity. This is bad because it can result in a loss of productivity, which is exactly what is happening for these users. I have yet to read a coherent response that defends these changes in Lion that isn't along the lines of: "well, it works for me, maybe something is wrong with YOU".

I haven't seen any changes in Mac OS X that weren't intended to increase productivity or "customer delight," as Apple stated recently with something similar. Not every change is going to help everyone, but Apple has never provided any significant number of options for interface changes (not unless you go back to before the return of Steve Jobs, which was not a good time for Apple's history). While you may not like the changes, don't assume that they were not implemented for a good reason. Even if Apple ends up reversing course or adding back in old options, they don't make changes without a good and specific reason being articulated to those who make the decisions.

-The change is ok, but it's currently poorly implemented and needs to be improved upon. Again, I have yet to read a response that legitimately argues against this that isn't along the lines of the rubbish I stated above.

While sometimes this can be true, often it's simply the perception of the person making the argument, and not objectively true (or false). Try to keep in mind that not everyone uses their computer or those features in the same way, and some may benefit from implementations that you feel harms your productivity. Doesn't make the change right or wrong, but you should understand that it's rare for a change to be negative for everyone.

It almost seems like the defenders are feeling defensive about liking something without any rational behind it (there's nothing wrong with this per say), and thus feel the need to justify their irrationality with a "psuedo rational" argument, which I have seen fail with a 100% rate. If someone can direct me to responses that go against what I have seen in my limited time browsing these forums (I sadly do not have unlimited time to keep track of all mac forums on the internet), please feel free to, I am open to hearing a good stance on the other side of the fence. As it stands however, the objectors in my eyes, are making you guys look like fools with the wool over your eyes.

Apple seems to be finally realizing this themselves by slowly giving back what the objectors are arguing for...if that isn't a sign of defeat, I don't know what is. Apple is notorious for (mostly) ignoring objectors in the past, so this is something worth noting (and I have been using Mac OS since System 6, man, it was awful back then).

I can't speak for everyone, but anytime I see an argument like this, I assume that the person making the argument just doesn't have a reasonable argument to make. It's kinda like calling someone a troll. It's not an argument, it's attacking the person you're arguing against instead (usually referred to as an ad-hominem attack). I'd recommend not making arguments like that if you want to be taken seriously (and considering how well-written your post is, I'm sure you can manage a debate without such arguments).

Apple has always responded to significant customer feedback, but only when they actually received it from a significant number of customers. FireWire being added back to the first unibody 13" MacBook Pro's is a good example (the Aluminum MacBook 13" from Late 2008 did not have it, which was the direct predecessor to this 13" MacBook Pro). You're right that it's somewhat rare, though.

jW

bedifferent
May 5, 2012, 04:26 PM
I think this new option will make a lot of people happy :)

God yes! Finally, "All Windows" Exposé is offered as a "new option". With ReSpaceApp being bought by BinaryAge (TotalFinder) and renamed TotalSpaces, offering 10.5/6 Spaces in Lion and ML, it seems ML will be what many people had hoped Lion should have been. Great that Apple is listening to its customers, Jobs always believed consumers didn't know what they wanted and gave little choice. However, sometimes consumers aren't all that ignorant. Choice isn't a bad thing :).

blow45
May 5, 2012, 04:49 PM
I'm finding a lot of people defending Lion (and now ML) are missing the crux of the two main arguments being presented by the objectors:

-Change is being implemented purely for the sake of change, and not for the sake of increased productivity. This is bad because it can result in a loss of productivity, which is exactly what is happening for these users. I have yet to read a coherent response that defends these changes in Lion that isn't along the lines of: "well, it works for me, maybe something is wrong with YOU".

-The change is ok, but it's currently poorly implemented and needs to be improved upon. Again, I have yet to read a response that legitimately argues against this that isn't along the lines of the rubbish I stated above.

It almost seems like the defenders are feeling defensive about liking something without any rational behind it (there's nothing wrong with this per say), and thus feel the need to justify their irrationality with a "psuedo rational" argument, which I have seen fail with a 100% rate. If someone can direct me to responses that go against what I have seen in my limited time browsing these forums (I sadly do not have unlimited time to keep track of all mac forums on the internet), please feel free to, I am open to hearing a good stance on the other side of the fence. As it stands however, the objectors in my eyes, are making you guys look like fools with the wool over your eyes.

Apple seems to be finally realizing this themselves by slowly giving back what the objectors are arguing for...if that isn't a sign of defeat, I don't know what is. Apple is notorious for (mostly) ignoring objectors in the past, so this is something worth noting (and I have been using Mac OS since System 6, man, it was awful back then).

Precisely that last point, emphasis mine.

I would also like to add a third point to the first two you mentioned:

-Lion seems by all accounts to be lacking in terms of core os work: kernel, memory management and file system improvements, and appears to be particularly buggy even after a .3 release in core os software such as safari, preview, mail and calendar, and even if the last three are occasional culprits in some systems, safari is a repeat offender in most systems. It is particularly problematic in systems without ssds and systems with less than 4gbs of ram. This has been my experience in all four of my systems, and in all, hmmm, just about 20 macs I 've been helping out friends with. I am now crystal clear in my advice to anyone who wants it: don't install lion in any system with 4gbs or less

OS X has become an os where work that doesn't only involve a few .doc and .xls documents, mail, preview, and safari is close to impossible on a 2gb and 4gb system. This is a parody for machines that sell at 20-30% higher margins than their competitors. It's a parody that windows 7 on a run of the mill a a few years old hp with core 2 duo and 2gbs of memory is more efficient and faster than lion on a latest and greatest i-core cpu and a 4gb mini. It's a parody and a disgrace for apple that windows 7 on pre 2010 (or even pre 2011) macs extends the life time of the computer and makes for a more responsive system. It's a parody that my 1.25gb memory powerbook g4 had comparable speed and responsiveness with basic tasks to lion on a 4gb mini and a cpu that is oh, about 5X more powerful. OS X is simply not taking much advantage of the increased refinement of the immensely more capable hardware apple now use.

Simply put, apple hasn't developed lion's programming core enough. It is self evident to anyone who isn't an apple apologist or cultist (and a lot here are, which is both apple's saving grace and pitfall) that apple didn't allocate enough resources to lion, ios got the, well...:D lion's share of them, and it's apparent apple doesn't have the proper resources to allocate, and by now their user base is so large that they can't afford not to. They can't keep band aid solutions any longer

What's even more worrisome is that they don't seem to be able to do this core work for mountain lion either - mountain lion is btw a service pack if there ever was one, and apple is shameless in calling it a new os - and by now they can't do this work even if they hired many more people because this is development that should have started and progressed at a much speedier pace 3-4 years or so ago when lion was in the works.

I will state this in closing: Had it not been apple releasing lion but ANY other os manufacturer without the cultish following apple have and the attachment of people to their apple products (warranted to a great extent because of some very commendable design and attention to detail (what os x used to have), as well as the money on pays for it and thereafter rationalizes their purchase.) they would have a big, big problem in their hands.

No one could have put out lion, with such dubious interface choices, such unpolished or downright badly implemented choices, such little core os work, such high number of bugs affecting it, and such poor performance in both older and new systems, and have gotten away with it. No one.

nuckinfutz
May 5, 2012, 04:58 PM
I'm still seeing more bluster and not enough information.

The difference between opinion and fact is that facts are verifiable.
This thread is filled with a few people opining about how poorly the Lion
OS performs yet we're supposed to take their opinion as fact.

Sounds a bit fishy. No school would use text that didn't have umpteen references.

I'll be first to admit that Lion is lacking in the UI polish on the new features but they always do better after they've got feedback from users. We've had a lot of features come back over the years based on consumer feedback.

I do not believe Apple's issue is an architectural one. OS X is fine and the shift from Carbon to Cocoa API is getting better and better.

LLVM, CLANG and the new debugging tools coming are all a breath of fresh air. In short Apple's on the right track but when i've got time i'll provide references to back up my assertions.

blow45
May 5, 2012, 05:20 PM
Jobs always believed consumers didn't know what they wanted and gave little choice. However, sometimes consumers aren't all that ignorant. Choice isn't a bad thing :).

Steve though would have never let out a release like lion had he had his wits about him and his health the last couple of years of his life...by then os x had become an aside to all that he was dealing with in his personal life and apple and he couldn't oversee it. It's one thing to be a perfectionist and seek to find the best way to do things and then only offer that, it's quite another to have poor judgment on how things should be done and then impose on others that they should be done one way only.

Steve, more often than not, had good judgment... the heads of os x currently simply don't. Also Steve didn't think consumers were ignorant when using a device, and didn't have worthwhile requests on how it should be used. He thought most consumers lacked vision on if/why they would want a new product type and what they would want it to do, and he was mostly right there too. 90% of the forums a year or more before the ipad was out (and for that matter the ipod, although I have only read about it, not lived through it) thought there was absolutely no purpose for an ipad, and only about 10% of us were raving about it and saying this is going to take the computer world by storm. Once they got an ipad, they got it. Now as people start using it they might have pretty good suggestions about it as they gain insight by using it more and more.

One of the best things I ve read about Steve, and I don't remember it verbatim to quote it, but it was something along the lines that he could take a complex set of data and details in a system and figure out what is essential and what isn't, making it as simple as it should be, but not any simpler... it's something Ive shared with Steve, that and a desire and feel for the aesthetic, that's why he was his soul mate at apple. These are extremely hard to do unless you have a talent for them. Most techies can see the trees and miss the forest, they are great in detail but not so good in overall judgment of the bigger picture... and hence bloatware is all too common in the industry. Apparently the current os x leadership seems to be poor in both attention to detail and the bigger picture. The fact that os x's innards don't lend themselves well to many programming improvements, and that apple hasn't allocated enough resources (and doesn't have enough resources to allocate) to make considerable technological advancements to it building upon the work of snow leopard is making things even worse.

Let's face it, if apple had really concentrated their resources to it (instead of spreading themselves thin due to the i-devices - the moneymakers) lion should have been snow leopard and leopard rolled into one: considerable under the hood work and improvements and considerable user interface improvements enabling our work flows. It's been neither. And mountain lion feels like a rushed product fixing the most glaring of errors and adding a few very minor tweaks. And mountain lion shouldn't have been that. It should have been the tick to the tock, tick for core os improvements, tock for ui "over the hood" improvements. Mountain lion is simply a marketing gimmick, pre-released unlike any os x version by marketeers (Schiler) to marketeers (Gruber), it's a service pack. But even as service pack it doesn't address the problems at the core of os x, and only barely scratches the surface of debugging lion. It's no wonder several people here have said rip os x.

finkmacunix
May 5, 2012, 05:47 PM
Steve though would have never let out a release like lion had he had his wits about him and his health the last couple of years of his life...by then os x had become an aside to all that he was dealing with in his personal life and apple and he couldn't oversee it. It's one thing to be a perfectionist and seek to find the best way to do things and then only offer that, it's quite another to have poor judgment on how things should be done and then impose on others that they should be done one way only.

Steve, more often than not, had good judgment... the heads of os x currently simply don't. Also Steve didn't think consumers were ignorant when using a device, and didn't have worthwhile requests on how it should be used. He thought most consumers lacked vision on if/why they would want a new product type and what they would want it to do, and he was mostly right there too. 90% of the forums a year or more before the ipad was out (and for that matter the ipod, although I have only read about it, not lived through it) thought there was absolutely no purpose for an ipad, and only about 10% of us were raving about it and saying this is going to take the computer world by storm. Once they got an ipad, they got it. Now as people start using it they might have pretty good suggestions about it as they gain insight by using it more and more.

One of the best things I ve read about Steve, and I don't remember it verbatim to quote it, but it was something along the lines that he could take a complex set of data and details in a system and figure out what is essential and what isn't, making it as simple as it should be, but not any simpler... it's something Ive shared with Steve. And it's extremely hard to do unless you have a talent for that. Most techies can see the trees and miss the forest, they are great in detail but not so good in overall judgment of the bigger picture... and hence bloatware is all too common in the industry. Apparently the current os x leadership seems to be poor in both attention to detail and the bigger picture. The fact that os x's innards don't lend themselves well to many programming improvements, and that apple hasn't allocated enough resources (and doesn't have enough resources to allocate) to make considerable technological advancements to it building upon the work of snow leopard is making things even worse.

Let's face it, if apple had really concentrated their resources to it (instead of spreading themselves thin due to the i-devices - the moneymakers) lion should have been snow leopard and leopard rolled into one: considerable under the hood work and improvements and considerable user interface improvements enabling our work flows. It's been neither. And mountain lion feels like a rushed product fixing the most glaring of errors and adding a few very minor tweaks. And mountain lion shouldn't have been that. It should have been the tock to the tick, tick for core os improvements, tock for ui "over the hood" improvements. Mountain lion is simply a marketing gimmick, pre-released unlike any os x version by marketeers (Schiler) to marketeers (Gruber), it's a service pack. But even as service pack it doesn't address the problems at the core of os x, and only barely scratches the surface of debugging lion. It's no wonder several people here have said rip os x.

Lion was released after Jobs' death?

blow45
May 5, 2012, 05:55 PM
I'm still seeing more bluster and not enough information.

The difference between opinion and fact is that facts are verifiable.
This thread is filled with a few people opining about how poorly the Lion
OS performs yet we're supposed to take their opinion as fact.

Sounds a bit fishy. No school would use text that didn't have umpteen references.

Not all facts are verifiable, especially facts intermingled with financial power, control and secrecy. And that's how apple is run (and should be run, btw) to avoid "facts" coming out that are not putting them in a good light. We are also not dealing with the hard sciences here, so I could reference a few papers to you and you could counter reference a few more to me. Forget about it, this just can't happen.

I am not in possession of the bug reports filed at apple, nor can I perform a large scale study and verify them thus. This only apple can do, and obviously they are not going to show us the results. I go by my personal experience in dealing with apple computers, which is ample, as most here do. Most of us also go by our judgment, and of course at the end of the day most of it is opinion. What hard fact do you want that lion has made poor choices, other than the reaction of a large part of apple's user base. What hard facts did vista have to be branded a miserable failure?

This is not a school text, it's an adult discussion based on some facts and some well or not so well informed opinion. Btw good luck in finding a school text where the references provide backing to hard facts in other than the hard sciences, go to anything close to the humanities, politics, sociology and history to see how well the references at the back work. Even in the hard sciences go to anything with vested interests involved and try to tell me if the conflicting references provide any help. To go even further, go to any complex, sub section of a hard science subject and see if anyone other than the 50-100 people on the globe dealing with this sub topic can make sense of it and value one reference over the other in terms of its merits... most of the times even they can't do that, they only know the small circumference of their own work. And you want hard facts about not only programming, but business, and os development...forget it...

Anyway...this has gone ot, apologies for the digression.

----------

Lion was released after Jobs' death?

Where did I say that? Lion was the last thing Steve had on his mind though the last couple of years, and it shows. :)

Tom8
May 6, 2012, 03:05 AM
I wish people would stop trying to justify claims by saying "Steve this" and "Steve that". The fact of the matter is, he is dead, so you can't prove anything you're saying.

blow45
May 6, 2012, 09:27 AM
I wish people would stop trying to justify claims by saying "Steve this" and "Steve that". The fact of the matter is, he is dead, so you can't prove anything you're saying.

huh? :confused: We 've read his bio you know and have followed his public life pretty closely for more than the last decade, so what's your point exactly? What would we be able to prove if he were alive?

Tom8
May 6, 2012, 10:28 AM
huh? :confused: We 've read his bio you know and have followed his public life pretty closely for more than the last decade, so what's your point exactly? What would we be able to prove if he were alive?

The point is, people are speaking on behalf of a dead man. The simple fact is, no matter how much you've followed Jobs and Apple, only Jobs knows what he was thinking. So to say "Jobs wouldn't have released Lion" is completely asinine, because you simply do not know that.

Same goes for people who're saying "Jobs would never release an iPhone 4S"

blow45
May 6, 2012, 11:41 AM
The point is, people are speaking on behalf of a dead man. The simple face is, no matter how much you've followed Jobs and Apple, only Jobs knows what he was thinking. So to say "Jobs wouldn't have released Lion" is completely asinine, because you simply do not know that.

Same goes for people who're saying "Jobs would never release an iPhone 4S"

What is asinine is to to emphasize the obvious: Yes at any point in his life only Jobs knew his intentions and the rationale behind his actions, and obviously what he was thinking. You are pointing out the bleeding obvious? This hasn't stopped any of us dime a dozen pundits, or any of the supposed non dime a dozen (but actually perhaps even more so than some of us) journos continually commenting on, and hypothesizing about his actions and decisions even when he was alive. Could they prove why he acted one way or another when he was alive? No.

No we don't know what he would have done, but we know rather well what he didn't have the time and energy to do, be hands on with lion, and we can make a pretty informed prediction that a perfectionist such as Jobs wouldn't have released such a buggy and unpolished os. This is not some deep arcane hypothesizing and conjecturing on his thoughts, this is as self evident a prediction as it can get. Would he have been happy with lion? Certainly not if one judges about how happy he was with the equally buggy mobileme and how he publicly derided it on a keynote.

This is real life, go elsewhere to find proofs, real life is seldom about proofs.

thejadedmonkey
May 6, 2012, 11:54 AM
If Expose is any indication, Apple may actually be listening to user feedback for once. I hope.


I've been using OS X since 10.3 and like Lion, so there goes that theory. Really, to complain that the lack of colored icons completely ruins your workflow??? Its called basic reading comprehension or, failing that, shape recognition. A small icon with colors and shaped like a document is no easier to see than a monochrome icon shaped like a document.

I've been using OS X since 10.3 and don't like Lion, does that make your opinion null and void now, too?

scubus
May 6, 2012, 03:33 PM
I've been using OS X since 10.3 and like Lion, so there goes that theory. Really, to complain that the lack of colored icons completely ruins your workflow??? Its called basic reading comprehension or, failing that, shape recognition. A small icon with colors and shaped like a document is no easier to see than a monochrome icon shaped like a document.

While you could certainly be correct, one anecdotal experience doesn't disprove (or prove) a point.

There is a considerable body of work in psychology and interface design that shows identifying a color is easier and quicker than reading a tag or identifying a shape.

For the record, I don't dislike Lion per se, but I do find it is clumsier than earlier versions of X. I don't mind the monochrome icons, but would prefer an option to go back to color keyed icons, among other things, although I find other issues mentioned here contribute far more to the clumsy feeling of Lion.

I hope that Apple makes changes to both the interface and under the hood issues in Mountain Lion. As for whether or not the majority of users like the Lion and Mountain Lion, and whether or not Apple is on the right track with the changes to the OS, only time, and sales, will tell.

bedifferent
May 7, 2012, 11:41 AM
There is a considerable body of work in psychology and interface design that shows identifying a color is easier and quicker than reading a tag or identifying a shape.

As a former I/O Psych student, I can attest to that fact. Colors rely/affect many varying emotions. In marketing, color's are extremely pertinent in logo's and other paraphernalia. Imagine a world in which no color existed; logo's and billboards were all grey or black and white. It is much easier for an individual to identify with an object if it has more characteristics such as color hues/cues than a myriad of grey objects. Tests have been performed (The Stroop Effect is one, but that deals with word/color symmetry than identity) that indicate it is much quicker for an individual to recognize an object with color as opposed to its black and white counterpart for many obvious reasons.

Having color doesn't necessarily mean a lack of uniformity and thus a visual mess. When done right, color in an OS assists workflow by adding color cues to icons that lead to quicker recognition. 10.7 seems more in conflict with itself than previous OS X variants. There is certainly a lack of uniformity that is much needed.

blow45
May 7, 2012, 12:33 PM
To add to that, John Medina's excellent book brain rules also provides neuroscientific evidence why the human brain takes an immensely smaller amount of time (immensely in human reaction terms) to process and associate an image in colour to something than read a single word. That's why custom pictures in sidebar folders when you have 10 folders there are an immense help as opposed to reading through monochrome generic ones.

Surely apple are aware of this as well as what the other posters have mentioned, because they have some pretty smart guys working for them, that's why their choice of monochrome defies explanation. Branding, ios similarities and/or generational differentiation of lion for other os x's taking precedence over well documented and scientifically verified ui and human perception criteria should not be an accepted practice by apple if that is the case. It's also sadly an ever expanding trend in apple's ui design, greying everything out which is very alarming. It's one thing to have to switch to chrome so your 15+ tabs can have a custom colorful icon next to them and be easily differentiable (all my google tabs spotted in miliseconds, my mr tabs, my apple tabs, etc. etc.), it's quite another when this bad marketing and product differentiation trend is becoming a broader os ui trend with no choice to revert it.

nuckinfutz
May 7, 2012, 12:40 PM
To add to that, John Medina's excellent book brain rules also provides neuroscientific evidence why the human brain takes an immensely smaller amount of time (immensely in human reaction terms) to process and associate an image in colour to something than read a single word. That's why custom pictures in sidebar folders when you have 10 folders there are an immense help as opposed to reading through monochrome generic ones. That's why even people who think they are reading through

Surely apple are aware of this as well as what the other posters have mentioned, because they have some pretty smart guys working for them, that's why their choice of monochrome defies explanation. Branding, ios similarities and/or generational differentiation of lion for other os x's taking precedence over well documented and scientifically verified ui and human perception criteria should not be an accepted practice by apple if that is the case. It's also sadly an ever expanding trend in apple's ui design, greying everything out which is very alarming. It's one thing to have to switch to chrome so your 15+ tabs can have a custom colorful icon next to them and be easily differentiable (all my google tabs spotted in miliseconds, my mr tabs, my apple tabs, etc. etc.), it's quite another when this bad marketing and product differentiation trend is becoming a broader os ui trend with no choice to revert it.

I have the Medina book. Haven't read it yet but just the premise of how color is important makes sense. The whole grayscale look of the Lion sidebar is still perplexing to me I'm always looking for the color and it's gone.

We'll see if Apple retracts this decision and brings color back. I'd better go make some comments on the official feedback or my voice will never be heard.

bedifferent
May 7, 2012, 01:02 PM
I have the Medina book. Haven't read it yet but just the premise of how color is important makes sense. The whole grayscale look of the Lion sidebar is still perplexing to me I'm always looking for the color and it's gone.

We'll see if Apple retracts this decision and brings color back. I'd better go make some comments on the official feedback or my voice will never be heard.

Apple [sort of] returned "All Windows" Exposé in the recent ML DP release by allowing windows to be ungrouped. As an ADC member, many of us have been filing bug reports re: color for Finder sidebar, 10.5/6 Exposé and Spaces features (ReSpaceApp was bought by BinaryAge, makers of TotalFinder and is now TotalSpaces, definitely returns pervious Spaces to OS X very well), OpenGL and multiple display support since the first 10.7 DP. Glad engineers are [somewhat] listening.

blow45
May 7, 2012, 02:50 PM
I have the Medina book. Haven't read it yet but just the premise of how color is important makes sense. The whole grayscale look of the Lion sidebar is still perplexing to me I'm always looking for the color and it's gone.

We'll see if Apple retracts this decision and brings color back. I'd better go make some comments on the official feedback or my voice will never be heard.
The last one is always a good point. I probably should reread Medina's book too since I left a sentence midway on my original post. :o (something about multitasking...) Btw, there's a good dvd version of the book too as well as website.

Jagardn
May 9, 2012, 09:05 PM
You are the target audience for apple these days, you are exactly the kind of person they want for their user base, the kind that will attack other users' real os problems with sarcasm and derision so they won't be bothered to work more or employ more people to develop better software while they sit on a pile of cash that's more than you, your family, your friends, and their families would make in a 1000 lifetimes... Bravo!

I'm not attacking "other users' real os problems with sarcasm", i just hear the same thing from the same users constantly.

Apple is making better software in my opinion, just not yours.

I bought AAPL at $210 a share. Your damn right I like Apple. Apple makes money thats what good companies do. Me, my family, and friends don't deserve Apple's money, they earned it, we didn't. :p

wikus
May 9, 2012, 11:05 PM
Easy solution. Sell all the apple stuff that you apparently despise. Buy a sub $300 netbook and live happily ever after.

Please refrain from exhibition of arrogance and condescending attitudes.

haravikk
May 10, 2012, 04:49 AM
I can't really wade through the whole topic, but I wanted to comment on one part of the starting rant:

-they DON'T however have to come up with some real backbone technological innovation such as a modern file system as zfs, we have NOT come to expect this of Apple inc. anymore, maybe we would have expected it from Apple Computer, but not Apple inc. So no sweat guys, keep hfs+ for another 10 years if you want.
If you've followed the ZFS thing then you'll know why Apple hasn't been able to add it. However, there is clear evidence that Apple may have something on the way, as it's not in their best interests to remain with the venerable HFS+ regardless of their real market, as a new file system could probably optimise better for SSD's, handle backups more seamlessly, and also maintain file integrity; as files get bigger and drives get denser, file-integrity becomes more and more important so it's not like Apple can just ignore it.

Anyway, the very fact that CoreStorage exists (and that Apple has file-system specialists to work on it) implies that they have much more planned. After all, whole-disk encryption, as much as I love the feature, isn't really a big selling point for a consumer OS, especially when FileVault 1 worked just fine for the majority of users. Sure, it had its flaws, but instead of trying to hack on more improvements to it Apple decided to create the barebones of a logical volume manager and handle encryption at the volume level; I don't think they'd have bothered doing that unless they had bigger plans beyond replacing disk images-based FileVault encryption.

While the file-system may actually remain HFS+ in practice, if they do extend to a full-fledged volume manager then we may see file (or rather block) integrity features, compression, and other goodies. After all, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with HFS+ as a file-system, especially if a volume manager can add the integrity, encryption and other features it needs.

Regardless of what exactly they're planning; be it full volume manager or all-new file-system, or both, neither is something that can just be rushed out. As far as I can tell Apple was trying for ZFS support all the way up until Snow Leopard, so the fact that they have CoreStorage ready to handle encryption for Lion is pretty significant progress, as something as important volume management needs to be heavily tested, as even the smallest bug could mean the loss of every piece of data you have.

It's clear that Mountain Lion is probably too early to see anything new from CoreStorage, I believe its on the way. Another interesting piece of information is the fact that CoreStorage doesn't quite work with AppleRAID; it's possible to make a logical volume from one, but it requires a little trickery, but to me this implies that Apple has its sights on replacing AppleRAID eventually.

blow45
May 10, 2012, 06:09 AM
Thanks for the informative post, I enjoyed reading it.

Yup I 've followed the zfs debacle but I can't say apple ever provided a satisfactory answer as to why it didn't happen. What probably did happen was that sun asked apple for compensation and apple asked for exclusivity and support, and the things got stuck on the exclusivity bit. Some people at apple I remember reading rationalized this away as zfs being too bandwidth costly for the os x kernel to handle well anyway and not worth the effort for anything but the server market and of no benefit to the "average" user, whatever that might mean, if they could implement some features of the fs such as instantaneous snapshots and clones as say "versions" on a top layer.

You have an optimistic take on what apple might be doing, and there are some indications that they might be working on something, I hope you are right, because whatever they are working in terms of a fs is by now overdue.

I have to disagree however that whole disk encryption is not a big selling point for a consumer os, it's not a big selling point for an os that sells to soccer moms mostly, but to pros or for that matter anyone valuing a secure quality os backbone it is. And it was long overdue as filevault 1 had a lot of problems in terms of security. At least we got some computer technology with lion too, sadly on an area where open source third party solutions such as truecrypt worked just fine. Pity though lion hasn't done much in terms of core os work such as memory management, and you can tell. You can also tell not enough people are involved with its development.

marcusj0015
May 16, 2012, 08:48 PM
Dude, If you don't get why HFS is bad and desperatley in need of replacement, you're not even worth my time tbh.

Doombringer
May 17, 2012, 08:20 AM
My biggest beef with OSX is the inconsistency in UI design. Some of the built-in programs go the route of iTunes toolbars/icons, simplified and monochromatic... while some still have hold-overs from older versions of OS9/X, more detailed and colorful.

The 'brushed metal' look is overused... something like Safari's toolbar, bookmark bar and tab bar is nothing but a sea of gray, gray, gray. Also, some UI elements are outright microscopic on a monitor of average resolution (23", 1920 x 1080) -- like the formatting bar in Mail messages or in TextEdit.

Mr. Retrofire
May 18, 2012, 04:35 AM
Dude, If you don't get why HFS is bad and desperatley in need of replacement, you're not even worth my time tbh.
If you think HFS+ (Journaled) is such a bad FS, erase all your HFS+ formatted disks and use ZFS/NTFS! Thank you very much! ;-)

marcusj0015
May 18, 2012, 06:24 AM
If you think HFS+ (Journaled) is such a bad FS, erase all your HFS+ formatted disks and use ZFS/NTFS! Thank you very much! ;-)

Lol, how about you read up on HFS, here's a great link;

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7/mac-os-x-10-7/12#hfs-problems

the link doesn't seem to be working right now, but I highly doubt Arstechnica deleted it, probably server maintenance.

haravikk
May 18, 2012, 11:58 AM
I have to disagree however that whole disk encryption is not a big selling point for a consumer os
That wasn't quite what I meant; what I was trying to get at was that with FileVault 1 we already had user-folder encryption, which is all the majority of users would ever really need in practise. It definitely had its problems, but Apple could have spent a smaller amount of time tweaking it to make it more efficient, easier to backup etc. Instead they went along the more significant route of CoreStorage with full-disk encryption.

It's kind of evidenced by the fact that the iOS features are the ones that get all the attention, rather than FileVault 2, since it's essentially a feature that we already kind of had. It was my main reason for upgrading, but probably not for the majority of consumers who may not have appreciated the real degree of difference between the two features, only that it was a little bit easier to use. :)

blow45
May 18, 2012, 12:19 PM
point taken. :)

njean777
May 31, 2012, 09:57 AM
Why are you getting so excited about? For them finally coming sort of to their senses and fixing their bs? And what's going to happen to pre 2007 macs that can either have sl and no icloud or stick to lion's bugs with icloud? Finally they enabled the option to not save a file you don't want to save, instead of the nanny os saving for you the changes you don't want to save...

Save as has got to come back and versioning as default has got to be a user enabled option as well on a per app and a per document basis. If I don't want os x to version sensitive documents I should be able to choose not to on a per document basis, if someone doesn't want ANY versioning in an app they should be able to opt out as well.

And save as has got to come back, duplicate, wait for window to open, save, close original file, keep new file, is simply not acceptable as work flow. As many people have pointed out save as did too things very well different name, different location via one click or a keyboard shortcut. If they think they got it so right with duplicate let's see them giving an option and counting how many people stick with duplicate and how many go with save as. I would wager not more than 15% sticks with duplicate.

They still have their head pretty firmly in the sun don't shine territory and of course it's encouraging that they are dragging it out begrudgingly but we can't come to the point of ms users circa 5 years ago of actually celebrating their correcting gross errors in the os that they introduced to begin with... but sadly that's the point we've come to at os x's current stage. Which is very sad indeed because some of us didn't switch to macs because of the itoys (ipad excepted which is not an itoy but a category defining revolutionary device) but because of how good, versatile, and effective os x (once the world's most advanced os, not anymore though) was.

To have come to a stage where with a couple of word and excel documents, preview with a few pdfs (and btw, what's with the bugs with preview, crashing after print commands..), and a couple of 7-8 tab browser windows on a 4gb mac (a recently bought mini for example) it runs like a dog and beachballs is a pretty pathetic evolution, albeit a good one for obsoleting older macs and making people buy new machines from apple.

Seems to me you should just use Linux if you don't want a "nanny OS". Windows/OSX have always been consumer OS'es. Linux on the other hand is for the people who actually want total control of everything.

blow45
Jun 7, 2012, 11:38 PM
Seems to me you should just use Linux if you don't want a "nanny OS". Windows/OSX have always been consumer OS'es. Linux on the other hand is for the people who actually want total control of everything.

I disagree, a commercial os doesn't have to be a nanny dumbed down os. OS X was certainly not a nanny dumbed down os in previous versions.

I was using ubuntu for quite some time, I still have it installed in one machine I own, but let's be honest here, if one doesn't have enough capital for os development which is the case with every linux distro it's close to impossible to maintain a proper os without offloading the work to the user or the community. (btw, even if you do have enormous amounts of capital it's not beyond an os manufacturer to offload the work to the user or the community as showcased by the considerable debugging efforts we've been doing for apple with lion...)

Sadly linux hasn't developed to what we were hoping it would, maybe if google pick it up and do an android for the desktop/notebook segment (and not chrome os) it will have some future in the mainstream. At this stage I really can't rely on linux for my daily productivity. One needs to run office apps, one needs to run commercial apps, one needs to have a guarantee there will be a driver for a device, hard disk, camera, nas, etc. etc. they buy...at least I do. :)

swingerofbirch
Jun 7, 2012, 11:54 PM
It's not that they have their head in their as*, they literally lost their head: it was Bertrand Serlet.

nuckinfutz
Jun 8, 2012, 12:06 AM
It's not that they have their head in their as*, they literally lost their head: it was Bertrand Serlet.

Craig Federighi is a capable replacement. He's an old NeXT guy as well.

TennisandMusic
Jun 8, 2012, 01:24 AM
Craig Federighi is a capable replacement. He's an old NeXT guy as well.

Yeah but I don't think he was the great "father of OS X" that Serlet was. I always figured when Serlet left it meant OS X was now second class within Apple and he saw the writing on the wall.

Would you want to stay at a place where your "life's work" was now sidelined and subjugated to a mobile consumer product?

nuckinfutz
Jun 8, 2012, 01:39 AM
Yeah but I don't think he was the great "father of OS X" that Serlet was. I always figured when Serlet left it meant OS X was now second class within Apple and he saw the writing on the wall.

Would you want to stay at a place where your "life's work" was now sidelined and subjugated to a mobile consumer product?

Yes. Desktop computers are boring. Years ago we had more upstarts:

AIM - Apple, IBM and Motorola pushing PowerPC RISC based computing

You had the high hope for Exponential (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_Technology)

Or even the Elbrus technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbrus_(computer))

Then it all died and became the Intel roadshow. ARM is the only credible threat to Intel right now and their primarily mobile and that's where the money is thus software/hardware development.

blow45
Jun 8, 2012, 09:58 AM
Yeah but I don't think he was the great "father of OS X" that Serlet was. I always figured when Serlet left it meant OS X was now second class within Apple and he saw the writing on the wall.

Would you want to stay at a place where your "life's work" was now sidelined and subjugated to a mobile consumer product?

Of course not, one can't stay to see OS X being a kernel behind ios...

He left like the gentleman that he was and his departing note didn't leave any hint of dissatisfaction. But it should be evident by apple's lack of focus on os x and, by now, the end product that is lion what the reasons behind his departure, and the results of his departure have been.