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View Full Version : Added Value in iTV/iPanel?? (vs ATV)




Mad Mac Maniac
Apr 12, 2012, 01:51 PM
I know that Apple really, really loves to control each and every part of the hardward and software they ship. To Apple, using the current Apple TV is probably akin to letting OS X run on an HP box.

...but I still don't understand how Apple sees the merit in building an entire tv set. iPad's and iPhones are big because they are cheap. Even though Mac's have been constantly growing over the past decade they are still so miniscule compared to the rest of the PC market. Any extra profit made from selling at a higher price will surely be negated due to the much smaller sales...

So I'm thinking there needs to be some huge selling point(s) that can only be accomplished through selling a dedicated TV. Here are the ones I can think of... but what do you think?

FaceTime Camera- cool, but certainly not worth buying a new TV
Touchscreen- yeah.... I don't see that happening
Built in motion controls- this is certainly a possibility, and might actually be worth it if pulled off correctly
Microphone for Siri- not buying it. a microphone on your tv wouldn't really be helpful anyway

That's about all I can think of which couldn't be accomplished through the much, much cheaper ATV. But maybe Apple will shock us!



maturola
Apr 12, 2012, 01:59 PM
You are completely missing the point....It is NOT about the hardware, it had never been (Not with the iPhone, or the iPad or even the ATV). it is about controlling the content, it is about holding the content providers hostage so they can do what they want (and get a 30% cut while at it) just as they did the the music industry.

So yes it is a cash cow for Apple and they want to milk it

that's for the "merit" as far as what the actual set would have, I think the big thing would be Apps, and a way to custom create your own TV station with cotent you can buy directly from iTunes, also it will become the center hub of all your media (coming from iCloud), iMessage, Facetime, and a more advance version of SIRI.

Mad Mac Maniac
Apr 12, 2012, 02:11 PM
You are completely missing the point....It is NOT about the hardware, it had never been (Not with the iPhone, or the iPad or even the ATV). it is about controlling the content, it is about holding the content providers hostage so they can do what they want (and get a 30% cut while at it) just as they did the the music industry.

So yes it is a cash cow for Apple and they want to milk it

that's for the "merit" as far as what the actual set would have, I think the big thing would be Apps, and a way to custom create your own TV station with cotent you can buy directly from iTunes, also it will become the center hub of all your media (coming from iCloud), iMessage, Facetime, and a more advance version of SIRI.

Are you being serious right now? Apple makes all their money from the hardware. The software is just used to drive hardware sales. That's how it is with apps, music, movies, everything. Apple doesn't make much from them, but that ecosystem is what keeps customers from coming back and buying more hardware from Apple.

The only think you metioned that Apple couldn't implement from the current ATV is FaceTime, but there are plenty of 3rd party camera's for TV's already.

Now I can understand that Apple would want that to be the ONLY content on your tv, not just the content accessed by one mere port... but still I don't see the incentive for the consumer to buy something so expensive for that.

maturola
Apr 12, 2012, 02:28 PM
Are you being serious right now? Apple makes all their money from the hardware. The software is just used to drive hardware sales. That's how it is with apps, music, movies, everything. Apple doesn't make much from them, but that ecosystem is what keeps customers from coming back and buying more hardware from Apple

LOL you couldn't be more wrong, but i am not in the mood today for a long argument, if you or anyone reading cares, you can go read the quarterly SEC report filing, you can clearly see where the money is coming from. :cool:

the only reason you don't see it is because you don't believe my first statement, once you take the hardware out of the pic, it make sense (which is why apple is doing it)

paulrbeers
Apr 12, 2012, 02:33 PM
LOL you couldn't be more wrong, but i am not in the mood today for a long argument, if you or anyone reading cares, you can go read the quarterly SEC report filing, you can clearly see where the money is coming from. :cool:

the only reason you don't see it is because you don't believe my first statement, once you take the hardware out of the pic, it make sense (which is why apple is doing it)

Ummm, here's the Quarterly report from January of the breakdown of revenue for Apple...

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1313724

iTunes accounts for 4% of Apple's Revenue.... Having the content readily available drives the Hardware sales which is Apple's largest revenue stream. People buy Apple's expensive hardware because they can get stuff "easily", but it is hardly the money maker you make it out to be.

Edit: And here's the quarter before: http://www.macrumors.com/2011/10/18/apple-records-q4-2011-earnings-of-6-6b-on-28-3b-in-revenue-tops-100-billion-in-sales-for-fiscal-2011/ - In this case iTunes makes up a whopping 6% of sales.

Edit2: Quarter before that: http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/19/apple-reports-record-breaking-q3-2011/ - iTunes 5%

Edit3: I'd go further back, but Macrumors didn't offer pretty charts in any other revenue reports, so I don't think you would be able to comprehend (although the numbers breakdown to 24.67 billion in revenue with iTunes only making up 1.4 Billion).

Mad Mac Maniac
Apr 12, 2012, 02:36 PM
LOL you couldn't be more wrong, but i am not in the mood today for a long argument, if you or anyone reading cares, you can go read the quarterly SEC report filing, you can clearly see where the money is coming from. :cool:

the only reason you don't see it is because you don't believe my first statement, once you take the hardware out of the pic, it make sense (which is why apple is doing it)

I guess for now we'll just have to agree to disagree with that point.

But let's assume your argument. Let's assume majority of Apple's profit comes from software, apps, music, movies, the whole ecosystem... not hardware. Wouldn't it be in Apple's best interest to push that ecosystem onto as many people as possible? Instead of selling 1 million iPanel's a year for $1,500 a pop, they could sell 20 million Apple TV's a year at $100 a pop (that would be more total revenue anyway). Unless you explain to me how the current Apple TV would be uncapable of running apps... or uncapable of watching movies or listening to music... or uncapable of running Siri.... It can do everything to keep you in their ecosystem.

maturola
Apr 12, 2012, 02:37 PM
Revenue is the keyword there, iTune Revenue is about 80% profit and recurrent over the life of each device, Hardware revenue is about 35% profit one time.

paulrbeers
Apr 12, 2012, 02:58 PM
Revenue is the keyword there, iTune Revenue is about 80% profit and recurrent over the life of each device, Hardware revenue is about 35% profit one time.

I've purchased two iPads for my Wife and I and that equals out to 1100 spent (I have a 32GB wifi, and she has a 16GB wifi). Using your numbers, Apple would have made approximately $385 on us during that transaction one time correct? Apple only keeps 30% of their iTunes sales and using your 80% profit of that 30%, we would have to spend $1600 in iTunes to equal the same profit that they made off of our iPads. I can tell you right now, I'm the heavy app and music downloader of the two of us, and I haven't broken $500 worth of content in the year+ I have had my iPad 2. My wife probably hasn't borken $300. Next year we will upgrade to iPad 4 and apple will get our 1x profit again and we will transfer all of the previously downloaded/paid for apps over to our new iPad so Apple will not see another dime for those Apps.

Remember, in a lot of ways iTunes is a 1x expenditure as well. Once you download it, you own it on all our devices. Music I've downloaded is available "free" to my iPhone and my Macs. I didn't have to pay for it 6x (iPad, iPhone, Mac Mini, Macbook Air, 2 AppleTv's). And if you figure in all of those devices, that's over $3000 in Apple hardware with over $1000 in 1x profit.

Consider yourself schooled my friend.

Mad Mac Maniac
Apr 12, 2012, 02:59 PM
Revenue is the keyword there, iTune Revenue is about 80% profit and recurrent over the life of each device, Hardware revenue is about 35% profit one time.

a) what gives you the idea that iTunes revenue is 80% profit??? I'm hoping that is more than just an assumption...

b) Even if that is the case, 80% of 4% is much much smaller (3.2%) than 35% of 92% (32.2%. 92% was aquired by adding iPad, iPhone, Mac, and iPod percentages.)

So that means, using your numbers and Apple's revenue from last Q of $46.33B....

Apple had a profit of $1.48B from iTunes and $14.9B from hardware

paulrbeers
Apr 12, 2012, 03:09 PM
I know that Apple really, really loves to control each and every part of the hardward and software they ship. To Apple, using the current Apple TV is probably akin to letting OS X run on an HP box.

...but I still don't understand how Apple sees the merit in building an entire tv set. iPad's and iPhones are big because they are cheap. Even though Mac's have been constantly growing over the past decade they are still so miniscule compared to the rest of the PC market. Any extra profit made from selling at a higher price will surely be negated due to the much smaller sales...

So I'm thinking there needs to be some huge selling point(s) that can only be accomplished through selling a dedicated TV. Here are the ones I can think of... but what do you think?

FaceTime Camera- cool, but certainly not worth buying a new TV
Touchscreen- yeah.... I don't see that happening
Built in motion controls- this is certainly a possibility, and might actually be worth it if pulled off correctly
Microphone for Siri- not buying it. a microphone on your tv wouldn't really be helpful anyway

That's about all I can think of which couldn't be accomplished through the much, much cheaper ATV. But maybe Apple will shock us!

By the way OP, I apologize I never responded to your question, instead we kind of took over your thread battling over how much Apple actually makes of iTunes.

In answer to your question, the belief is that it will probably be Siri powered with probably like a microphone built into a remote or something. It's the only thing that really makes sense. Using hand gestures or what not to control your t.v. would just tire you out and requires a free hand (can't hold my beer and my popcorn and control the tv!).

Facetime could be added. That would be kinda cool. You can kind of do this with Airplay mirroring from an iPhone or iPad to the AppleTV, but the camera is on the device doing the mirroring so it is awkward to say the least.

In the end, the iTV or AppleTV Set (whatever it is called), probably will be an overly expensive television with some cool features (just like some argue mac computers are). Question is, will I buy one? Probably..... It's got an Apple logo on it dangit!

Mad Mac Maniac
Apr 12, 2012, 03:22 PM
By the way OP, I apologize I never responded to your question, instead we kind of took over your thread battling over how much Apple actually makes of iTunes.

In answer to your question, the belief is that it will probably be Siri powered with probably like a microphone built into a remote or something. It's the only thing that really makes sense. Using hand gestures or what not to control your t.v. would just tire you out and requires a free hand (can't hold my beer and my popcorn and control the tv!).

Facetime could be added. That would be kinda cool. You can kind of do this with Airplay mirroring from an iPhone or iPad to the AppleTV, but the camera is on the device doing the mirroring so it is awkward to say the least.

In the end, the iTV or AppleTV Set (whatever it is called), probably will be an overly expensive television with some cool features (just like some argue mac computers are). Question is, will I buy one? Probably..... It's got an Apple logo on it dangit!

Haha, yeah we succumbed to quite the sidetrack... But even the "Siri in a remote" concept could easily be done with the current ATV implementation just a) use your iPhone or b) beef up the current remote. I dunno.....

But I must say, that in spite of all my reservations, for some reason I really really can't wait to get one. And I hate saying that, because I don't even know what it is... and I don't WANT to want one, because I just bought a new 55" LED samsung TV about a year and a half ago...

heliox8614
Apr 12, 2012, 03:40 PM
Lol. I have a 42" plasma in the master bedroom, another in the media room, and a 6 month old 59" plasma in the living room, and I'm dying to replace the 59" with an Apple product and move the 59" to the media room, replacing a 42" which would then move to my garage.
Yeah, I'm kind of a whore. Lol

NewbieCanada
Apr 12, 2012, 04:24 PM
Call me crazy, but I don't have the slightest desire to control my TV by pressing a button and speaking to it instead of just pressing a button. Whenever I speak and there's no one around my dog thinks I'm talking to him (logically enough) and thinks he's getting a walk or food.

I'm curious what this product will be - I don't think any of the speculation I've read until now is nearly compelling enough to make it more than another brand to be considered when buying a new TV

blinkin182
Apr 13, 2012, 01:36 AM
I am also a bit skeptical about what exactly Apple could bring to the game to enter this market which is very competitive.

They entered the music player and mobile phone market with really revolutionary products, which in many ways made it very easy to use and thus consumer friendly. This differentiate themselves from the competition and truly made them competitive.

First iPod: Wheel navigation and interface and iTunes/playlists for loading content.
First iPhone: Touchscreen, proximity sensor, gyroscope and iOS user-interface.

They will have to enter the TV market with something that really makes a difference.

Retina display
I thought it could be super high resolution screen, but that doesn't make sense because there is no content to take advantage of it.

Apps
This one kinda makes a bit more sense, but what apps do you really need on your tv, that you can't stream/airplay from your iOS device? Unless it could be games... but there is already strong competition.

New way to record content?
This one doesn't really make sense. After all, TiVo already does a good job and it's not like Apple is a great fan of "normal" cable tv. It wants to promote it's own content... so I doubt this could be it.

Revolutionary new interface la Siri
This one is probably one of the most relevant. But as many have said. A remote is a pretty straightforward way to use the TV. The only advantage i could see to voice commands, would be for searching content or surfing the web. It could be implemented with recording content, say give the order "Siri, record "Game of thrones" on HBO", or "record all comedy sitcoms". But, as I noted above, I don't think that fits into Apple's strategy in regards to content.

As for Gesture controls la Xbox Kinect, well it's not in Apple's style to do the "me-too" strategy, unless they would make gesture detection really good somehow, which would leave kinect in the dust. But there again, I don't really see many people controlling their tv through gestures.

FaceTime camera
This seems like a necessary thing to be included, so it would surely make the list.

I also wonder if it could be anything to do with 3D, but then again it's a feature that hasn't really caught on yet. I personally think it's a fancy gimmick, but don't picture myself wearing those 3D glasses every time i wanna watch TV.

I still think the Apple TV approach is a good one, but that replacing the whole TV would be a big challenge for Apple. Especially with such tight competition. Whatever it may be, I really hope they manage to surprise the +%" out of me!

Moccasin
Apr 13, 2012, 02:36 AM
If Apple do bring out an actual TV, then I imagine it will have something very innovative.

We have speculated about what could be the USP but I'm reminded of Steve Jobs saying "we finally cracked it". To my mind that means that after lots of intense thinking by some pretty clever people, they had a Eureka! Moment that perhaps we won't get close to in individual thought. That's not to say it won't involve Siri or other ideas that have been suggested. It might even just be a very smart implementation of various concepts in a seamless way.

So it's quite possible that no-one has guessed what their TV might do. Apple have a knack for re-inventing technology in ways no-one had previously thought of.

Mad Mac Maniac
Apr 13, 2012, 07:03 AM
If Apple do bring out an actual TV, then I imagine it will have something very innovative.

We have speculated about what could be the USP but I'm reminded of Steve Jobs saying "we finally cracked it". To my mind that means that after lots of intense thinking by some pretty clever people, they had a Eureka! Moment that perhaps we won't get close to in individual thought. That's not to say it won't involve Siri or other ideas that have been suggested. It might even just be a very smart implementation of various concepts in a seamless way.

So it's quite possible that no-one has guessed what their TV might do. Apple have a knack for re-inventing technology in ways no-one had previously thought of.

Yeah... This is exactly what I'm hoping for

pheenix11
Apr 13, 2012, 09:19 AM
Call me crazy, but I don't have the slightest desire to control my TV by pressing a button and speaking to it instead of just pressing a button. Whenever I speak and there's no one around my dog thinks I'm talking to him (logically enough) and thinks he's getting a walk or food.


This is funny. :)

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The revolutionary design in the Apple TV will be the access to content. iTunes subscription service like Hulu, apps for cable channels like ESPN. I think this is what Steve Jobs cracked. People will finally be able to pay for just what they want and none of the extra crap.

That's what I want and that's what would be a game changer. How Apple would do it, I have no idea.

shazzam
Apr 13, 2012, 10:10 AM
I think about what the 'Apple TV' is going to look like. Seeing photos of televisions from the 60's, the designers were definitely inspired by the future with their designs. Apple is surely drawing from this same inspiration of cutting through the monotony of present television design.

Something I feel looks better then, was how the television set from the 60's was the centrepiece - and I think this may be key for the Apple TV. I don't think Apple wants to make a television to sit atop ur entertainment unit and play nice with all ur peripherals. I think their plan is to disrupt the whole ecosystem. To get rid of the Blu Ray/DVD player, the discs, the game system, the receiver, the remotes, the cords and the entertainment unit that house all this stuff.

It may be impossible but a new and simpler device may just be coming, the ultimate All in One entertainment solution that pushes us into a world where only the futuristic freestanding entertainment screen stands by itself. Triumphant in its vision.

NewbieCanada
Apr 13, 2012, 10:56 AM
This is funny. :)

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The revolutionary design in the Apple TV will be the access to content. iTunes subscription service like Hulu, apps for cable channels like ESPN. I think this is what Steve Jobs cracked. People will finally be able to pay for just what they want and none of the extra crap.

That's what I want and that's what would be a game changer. How Apple would do it, I have no idea.

Some of that's already there, in smart TVs from various manufacturers and in external boxes, including Apple TV.

Rights issues are massive though, and are done on a country by country basis. And I don't see anything in this that would be exclusive to Apple.

The iPod wasn't the only device that could play music. It wasn't even the only device for which you could easily buy music. It was the device that made access to your music easy and quickly grew to dominate a market that didn't exist on a large scale before they entered it. Same with the iPad.

Everyone owns a TV already and most of the people who'd be a target for this have upgraded within the last couple of years. My LCD TVs are about 3 inches thick and don't look as cool as the newer models, but they still do everything I want them to do (which is displaying content from XMBC or Apple TV) and I can't justify a new purchase. There's no content out there that I want that I don't have.

Mind you, if Apple manages to put out a panel as thick as an iPad but 55 inches wide, I'll have a hard time resisting.

As long as I don't have to talk to it.

urkel
Apr 13, 2012, 11:17 AM
Call me crazy, but I don't have the slightest desire to control my TV by pressing a button and speaking to it instead of just pressing a button. Whenever I speak and there's no one around my dog thinks I'm talking to him (logically enough) and thinks he's getting a walk or food.
No offense because I'm not trying to put down your opinion specifically,but that argument is exactly what's wrong with every other "new input" argument.

If someone says "Touchscreen on Macs", "Stylus on iPads" or "Siri on AppleTV" then the immediate response is negativity about how that new input isn't as good as the old way of doing things. But who says that Touchscreens, Mics or Stylus are supposed to REPLACE anything? Addingmore OPTIONS on input only makes the products more versataile and easier for the end user.

Personally, I want Siri on the AppleTV. I may not use it to change the volume but I definitely would prefer to say "Search YouTube for stupid cat videos" rather than typing it in.

NewbieCanada
Apr 13, 2012, 11:37 AM
No offense because I'm not trying to put down your opinion specifically,but that argument is exactly what's wrong with every other "new input" argument.

If someone says "Touchscreen on Macs", "Stylus on iPads" or "Siri on AppleTV" then the immediate response is negativity about how that new input isn't as good as the old way of doing things. But who says that Touchscreens, Mics or Stylus are supposed to REPLACE anything? Addingmore OPTIONS on input only makes the products more versataile and easier for the end user.


I have Siri on my iPhone and use it too - but it's not terrific at finding the limited media content on my phone. I can't imagine it being much good at finding what I want out of the vast range of stupid cat videos out there.

I find it works best as a supplement to other input methods, not a replacement for them. My point isn't that I'm against having it on a TV - (and let's get it on the next generation of Macs, definitely, along with touchscreens). My point is that it isn't a gamechanger that will make people replace their current TVs in order to have it.

d21mike
Apr 13, 2012, 01:40 PM
Others have mentioned the content. Organizing Content from any source to me would be an game changer. I think Google TV was trying to implement this but so far has failed. I have several ATV's and 1 ROKU Box. On my Roku I have Netflix, Amazon Prime, HBO Go and more. However, it does not have access to my FIOS On Demand Channels (other the HBO Go). What I want is in interface to it ALL. Example: On my SIRI Remote I would like to say, "Find all Kevin Costner Movies". It would then return all of those Movies from ALL of my sources. With the FREE ones showing first and the Pay Per View Options showing after. It is very difficult (if not impossible) to do this now. First you can search my Movie Title but not by Actor in most cases. Of course all of this could be done on the ATV STB. Also, you have to include network tv. Also, iCloud DVR would make a lot of sense so we all do not need to have DVRs with large hard drives recording the exact same shows 1 million times. They just keep 1 copy and allow all 1 million to stream it.

Mad Mac Maniac
Apr 13, 2012, 02:05 PM
Also, iCloud DVR would make a lot of sense so we all do not need to have DVRs with large hard drives recording the exact same shows 1 million times. They just keep 1 copy and allow all 1 million to stream it.

I do like the sound of that... but then it sounds pretty easy to wonder why we have to "record" shows to iCloud at all, if everything becomes available on iCloud anyway. It's not really recording anything individually for you, it's just acknowledging that before the show aired you wanted to watch it. Also would there need to be a limit then? Why would I have a personal limit, because it's just a universal all-accessable recording. But then I could set my iCloud DVR to record every show on every channel, that way I am always able to watch anything. Which is silly.

the iTunes Match-like service for DVR sounds tempting, and sure it could be accomplished if these artificial restrictions are placed on it... but it would be so annoying to have those artificial restrictions.... haha

d21mike
Apr 13, 2012, 02:23 PM
I do like the sound of that... but then it sounds pretty easy to wonder why we have to "record" shows to iCloud at all, if everything becomes available on iCloud anyway.I agree. I write software and one our products is a PRINT/REPORT Manager. Normally a report gets stored in a queue and then when printed it is removed. Our software "tags" the report (for multiple people/locations) so that it only goes away after the last "tag" is satisfied. This would be similar to the Google Mail Labels. Not sure it is a good idea to keep a copy of every network show (and every episode) on every channel forever in the cloud. Of course having a copy of every show that was created somewhere in the cloud would be utopia.

Mad Mac Maniac
Apr 13, 2012, 02:51 PM
Of course having a copy of every show that was created somewhere in the cloud would be utopia.

Yeah.... if only it could be done....

And then once a movie plays on TV that would be stored in iCloud forever too. Haha.

In our dreams :rolleyes:

douglaseg1
Apr 13, 2012, 02:52 PM
I think that the OP is right on here. There really isn't any value that apple can bring to the HDTV display market - televisions are almost a commodity item now.

Some updates to the apple tv could be huge. Getting cable content a la carte would be gigantic! Imagine being able to subscribe to only the channels that you want via your apple tv. They've already started this with the NHL, NBA and MLB packages.

The addition of siri to the aTV would be awesome too. I'm tired of using that little tiny remote to move around the menus!

jupiterjones
Apr 14, 2012, 05:24 PM
If we think logically about the different role a stationary TV has in a home, compared to mobile devices like the iPhone/iPad, then we might be able to guess at how Apple would extend their ecosystem beyond connecting all their devices.

One thing I'd like to see is a Apple-esk interface to home automation standards. That would extend the ecosystem to a huge number of devices in the home including lights, security, automated curtains in the home theatre, intercoms, heating and cooling, and many more.

Clever control over all these items could net a big saving in power costs to any home that installs it - making the iPanel and Apple ecosystem a no-brainer since it will pay for itself.

If you have solar panels installed, the iPanel could report on performance, how much power all the eco-system devices were using and offer ways to reduce costs.

If you have a video intercom at your front door, Siri could answer it, and perhaps using face recognition or fingerprint scanning, unlock doors.

It could then control your amplifier/receiver/whatever to make playing movies or playstation, or whatever a simple voice command or a one button solution rather than the remote juggle we mostly have to deal with.

IMO, home automation would be the killer that makes the iPanel no longer a TV, but the central hub around which the Apple ecosystem can build.

E.Lizardo
Apr 14, 2012, 08:52 PM
Revenue is the keyword there, iTune Revenue is about 80% profit and recurrent over the life of each device, Hardware revenue is about 35% profit one time.

remind me not to make you CEO of my company.