Toyota to build plant in Canada, workers in US illiterate

[Ugg]

Link (http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/050630/b0630102.html)

The factory will cost $800 million to build, with the federal and provincial governments kicking in $125 million of that to help cover research, training and infrastructure costs.

Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double that amount of subsidy. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.

"The educational level and the skill level of the people down there is so much lower than it is in Ontario," Fedchun said.

In addition to lower training costs, Canadian workers are also $4 to $5 cheaper to employ partly thanks to the taxpayer-funded health-care system in Canada, said federal Industry Minister David Emmerson.

The following map shows a pretty clear lack of education in the red states.

[mkrishnan]

*Sigh* And I moved from where to WHERE on this map? :( :eek: :(

[mkrishnan]

EDIT: Weird...how did I end up with two posts? :(

Ontario does have an excellent automotive workforce. I wonder if this kind of issue is one of the unspoken reasons why Nissan's quality suffered so much when they first started investing heavily in plants in the US? Then again, Toyota and Honda have excellent quality in plants in the US....

But, the government of any state that lost out on this contract because their people are illiterate should spend a good two hours being ashamed of themselves and then a good two months coming up with a real plan to fix the problem.

[dornoforpyros]

my apologies in advanced for this inappropriate anti-american statement but....atleast this explains how bush got re-elected :p

[Ugg]

An interesting anomaly with the map is North Dakota, the place of my birth. They have a good education system but the population is older than the average of other states and fewer children are being born there than the average of all other states. They also have the lowest highschool dropout rate.

Link (http://www.state.nd.us/jsnd/warehouse.htm?bookmark=compare)

[ham_man]

Yea, and 3 out of 4 of my grandparents never got past the 9th grade. They are all successful farmers (if that is possible). I don't know why liberals keep calling the red states stupid illiterate fools. Ain't like it is going to win any voters over...

Oh, and one more thing, is this the voting age population that voted in the 2004 election? Would really like to know...

[Ugg]

Yea, and 3 out of 4 of my grandparents never got past the 9th grade. They are all successful farmers (if that is possible). I don't know why liberals keep calling the red states stupid illiterate fools. Ain't like it is going to win any voters over...

Oh, and one more thing, is this the voting age population that voted in the 2004 election? Would really like to know...

Your grandparents, like mine, were successful in part due to massive government farm subsidies. Business success and literacy don't necessarily go hand in hand but literacy is essential in a country like ours as ability to read in the age of the internet is essential. I don't know where you're from, but in ND and MT, reading for pleasure or for knowledge trails TV by a massive percentage. Perhaps it's because schools in many red states are less about education and more about propaganda.

The map came from
here (http://edgetech-us.com/Map/EduLvls.htm) , it's a GIS company but they don't show their sources. There are some other maps showing distribution of those with higher degrees, etc. and there's a direct correlation between most red states and lack of education of any kind.

[mactastic]

And I've never understood why conservatives try to win liberal voters over with the 'elitist' or 'traitorous' comments. Ain't like it's gonna win any voters over. ;)

[mkrishnan]

And I've never understood why conservatives try to win liberal voters over with the 'elitist' or 'traitorous' comments. Ain't like it's gonna win any voters over. ;)

See, that's the key difference. Liberals want conservatives to see the light. Conservatives want liberals dead. :p :eek: :D

[Xtremehkr]

Toyota is not alone when it comes to finding the skill level of American workers lacking. Bill Gates has been speaking out against the shoddiness of the education system for a while now too. Not only that, but Bill has been pushing for a relaxation of requirements to bring in more skilled technology workers.

I am not sure exactly what happened to the education system in this country, but on one hand you have the Democrats who feel the education system is woefully underfunded and on the other you have the conservatives who want privatized education.

Either way, the system is failing in a number of areas. The lack of attention paid to this trend seems criminal. I have some major objections to privatized education as it allows the curriculum to potentially fall into the hands of a corporate minority, which would no doubt shape what is taught to suit their own needs.

At the same time, people need to become more involved with what is happening to the public education system because it is in trouble and is producing unproductive graduates.

Toyota chose Canada in lieu of substantial financial inventive and chose a country that also has a public education system. So I don't think that it is the public education system that is to blame. Maybe the reasons behind why the public education system in this country is lacking need to be examined. In the long term, it is far more beneficial for the public to be able to have a say in what is taught, which would be a lot harder if you had to deal with a private entity that has cornered the market.

[stubeeef]

If Carter had only listened to Pat Schroeder (never thought I would be on her side on an issue, never say never.)
.
THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION

When the Department of Education (DoEd) was created in 1979, a Washington Post editorial stated, "The creation of this department is a response by both the President [Carter] and the Congress, to one specific organization, the National Education Association." Former Representative Pat Schroeder (D-Colo.) warned, "No matter what anyone says, the Department of Education will not just write checks to local school boards. They will meddle in everything. I do not want that."

In 1993, best-selling author Martin Gross verified these predictions. Gross said the DoEd was "not a tragedy waiting to happen. It has already happened. Despite the fact that it will spend $37 billion this year, it has the honor of not educating one child." Standardized test scores provide evidence to support this claim. Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) and ACT Assessment scores are significantly lower today than they were 30 years ago – before the creation of DoEd. In addition, the average amount spent on each public school student has skyrocketed. In 1965, the average SAT score was 980 and slightly less than $3,000 was spent per student. More than 30 years later, the average SAT score is 910 and about $6,500 is spent per pupil.

DoEd's first budget was $14 billion and the department employed 450 people. By fiscal 2000, the budget had ballooned to more than $32 billion. The fiscal 2001 budget estimate is more than $43 billion, a 33 percent increase from the previous year. The department now employs more than 4,800 people, a 966 percent increase from 1979, yet DoEd spending for public schools accounts for less than 6 percent of total education spending. There are currently 780 education programs spread throughout 39 federal agencies, costing taxpayers $100 billion annually.

Despite the federal government's well-intentioned intervention, Americans are losing the education race. National Assessment of Education Progress (NAEP) tests show that average reading scores for high school students over 20 years have improved only one point, from 286 to 287 out of a possible 500. Writing scores during the same period, on the same scale, fell seven points from 290 to 283. On a standard percentile scale (where students answering 60 percent of the questions correctly receive passing grades) these reading and writing scores would receive failing grades. The scores have real-life consequences. Only 40 percent of American 12th graders are reading proficient. The other 60 percent of American students will find it difficult to hold jobs or attend college after graduation.

A recent study showed that although DoEd spent $15 billion in 1996 on elementary and secondary education, $3 billion went for purposes other than the needs of school districts. Various audits across the country have estimated that as little as 26 percent of DoEd funds are spent in the classroom. In a 1993 survey of small schools in Ohio, then-Governor George Voinovich (R) noted that as many as 170 federal reports totaling more than 700 pages must be filed by school officials each year. These reports comprise 55 percent of all school district paperwork. The Ohio survey illustrates the excessive spending for administrative activities required by DoEd.

Any education reform must shift control from Washington to the states and parents. Block grants, charter schools and vouchers are the most effective ways to accomplish such a shift.

Block grants, which have been introduced by members of both chambers of Congress, would send money back to the states with the guarantee that at least 95 percent of the money would reach the classroom. This method would surely improve education in states such as Nevada, where only 41 percent of education tax dollars actually make it to the students. Block grants would also guarantee that tailor-made solutions could be carried out by local education officials without Washington's over-regulating influence.

Charter schools also shift power into local hands. Charter schools are publicly funded schools that are privately administered. Charter signatories vary – a group of parents or a private corporation could run the school. It is up to the signatory to design and administer the curriculum. A Hudson Institute study found that charter schools work well for students who have gotten off to a slow start. Of those charter school students for whom truancy and bad report cards were once the norm, nearly half are now receiving "excellent" or "above average" marks. Charter schools, while not completely free from the regulatory arm of the federal government, provide students and parents with more choices and better results.

Educational vouchers allow students the freedom to choose their own public, private or parochial school. In 1998, the Wisconsin Supreme Court upheld a pilot voucher program that allowed disadvantaged youths to attend parochial schools. The ruling stated that when parents control public funds, the primary beneficiary is not the school, but the child. This ruling illustrates the importance of vouchers and allows some Wisconsin parents the right to choose what is best for their children. However, all news about vouchers is not good. Federal judges have struck down similar programs in Florida and Ohio showing, once again, that while many parents and taxpayers are trying to break free of the status quo, the regulatory establishment refuses to let them go.

A majority of parents support school choice. A 1999 Phi Delta Kappa study showed that 60 percent of public school parents support school choice. Sen. John Kerry (D–Mass.), a supporter of school choice, said, "Shame on us for not realizing that there are parents in this country who...support vouchers not because they are enamored with private schools but because they want a choice for their children. They want alternatives, and seeing none in our rigid system, they are willing and some, even desperate, to look elsewhere."

American children are caught in an educational system that perpetuates waste and fails to educate. Freedom from the monolithic bureaucracy of DoEd and returning choice to local communities will help the United States be more competitive in the education race. A 1998 report published by Harvard University shows that low-income recipients of New York School Choice scholarships scored higher on math and reading tests after just one year. This figure shines in comparison to the NAEP scores mentioned earlier, where it took students 20 years to improve their average reading scores by just one point. Even a child can see that choice equals results. Now it is time for the federal government to learn that lesson.

The first step in making sure that our children receive an appropriate education is to ensure that the American people are properly educated about the status of today's education system and the harm being caused by the federal government's regulations and involvement.
Link (http://www.cagw.org/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_Department_of_Education)

[IJ Reilly]

Let's see, Canada legalizes gay marriage, Toyota builds assembly plant in Canada.

So that means Toyota is a gay company. Right?

[solvs]

People seem to be skipping over the other important part, Canada having government funded medical care. Both of my parents are teachers, and I can see first hand how bad our schools are getting. I just don't think vouchers are going to change that. How does that help the public schools by taking even more much needed money away to send them to schools like the one my Cousin's Daughter goes? It's a religious school, and her grades suddenly shot up. Not because she's doing so much better, but because, according to what we've seen of the curriculum, it's just that much easier. I would worry for her, as she is not being prepared much for the real world. But then, neither would she be at public school, because they seem to be focused too much on self-esteem. :rolleyes:

Both sides are wrong on these issues... what else is new.

[zimv20]

I am not sure exactly what happened to the education system in this country
i'm not sure anything "happened" to it, i think it's (d)evolved to something that reflects society. something that values conformity and might over intelligence.

[rockthecasbah]

my apologies in advanced for this inappropriate anti-american statement but....atleast this explains how bush got re-elected :p
hahahah here here...im agreeing with you AND im american... :o

[IJ Reilly]

If you want to know what's happened or is happening our educational system, look no further than Kansas, where the teaching of science is being outlawed. Have I overstated the case? I think not. The rest of the world laughs at us when we force religiously-inspired pseudoscience on our children. Now we are reaping the benefits of enforced ignorance.

[Desertrat]

"Ontario workers are well-trained." Yeah, GM and FoMoCo trained them. And we all know that organizations would never take a gratuitous shot at any aspect of the US, such as education or health care...

I note that the new Toyota plant in San Antonio, Texas, will be coming on line soon. 1,500 local-hire jobs, per the San Antonio Express.

An article in Consumer Reports, back in the 1980s, commented that US-made Hondas had fewer dealer comebacks for warranty work than those made in Japan. I grant that Hondas in general were/are among the best in quality control and reliability, from my own repair work on them.

It's a matter of common knowlege throughout the world of indpendent garages that full-size American cars are less costly to maintain for the third and fourth owners than are the smaller foreign cars. Toyotas with the 22R motor are among the best of all foreign cars/trucks, for that po'-boy owner.

I come from a school-teacher family. My grandfather taught school from 1905 until 1955. At one time he was national secretary of the NEA. My grandmother for many years taught in elementary school; my mother taught Psychology at the University of Texas until her Fulbright days and then CIA work in the 1950s. I graduated from high school in 1951. After some years in the Army, I finished my 144 hours of engineering in 1962. My kid started elementary school in 1969 and graduated in 1981.

Comparing curricula over time, I've watched the ongoing decline in the quality of US education become even worse as the amount of federal involvement has grown. (Even in the late 1930s it was known there were problems in the way we administered the public schools.) Kinda hard to make me believe there is no causal relationship.

'Rat

[mactastic]

Hmm... I've noticed a decline in quality of education as the buying power of a teachers salary has gone down. Kinda hard not to draw causal relationships there either.

Who'd wanna work for a Fortune 500 company that demanded it's employees become 'highly qualified' yet provided no incentives for advanced degrees? What if said corporation then implemented strict accountability measures and demanded extra-curricular hours for a tiny stipend. And further that they wanted you to provide anything you need beyond the desk and computer you sit at. All for no pay increase. How deep would the hiring pool be?

[Sun Baked]

At least they didn't say that the Americans in those two states are usually too drunk to work in those factories.

And that every time they see a chunk of aluminum roll down the line they keep trying to pop the tab and drink the beer. :o

Alabama and rednecks, what they do for America...

[bousozoku]

Wasn't Toyota's first factory, for Camry, built near London, Kentucky? Isn't that in the heart of that very, very dark area on that map? :D

While I lived in Indiana and Ohio, people would make fun of Kentucky but I couldn't imagine that it would be so bad.

Perhaps, rather than relocating factories, manufacturers should also provide local instructors to teach the three Rs.

[roadapple]

Here is a map of Canada's education levels. The shaded areas are the Proportion of high school graduates (age 25-29) in 1996:

Dark Orange - 75-84%
Orange - 65-74.9%
Light Orange - 55-64.9%

Maybe someone can find a better map, but here is this link (http://atlas.gc.ca/site/english/maps/health/nonmedicaldeterminantsofhealth/education/highschoolgraduates)

I have worked in the Toyota plant in Indiana, Nissan in Mississippi and Honda in Alabama, along with Honda and Big Two plants in the midwest. There is a significant difference in the skill level of low level employees from north to south. However there is also a significant payrate difference. Maybe Toyota is realizing that building outside of the rust belt has it's difficulties, but because of healthcare costs has found a solution outside the US in Canada.

Maybe lower Ontario should form the 51'st state, or Michigan's eastern peninsula?

[Sun Baked]

Wasn't Toyota's first factory, for Camry, built near London, Kentucky? Isn't that in the heart of that very, very dark area on that map? :D

While I lived in Indiana and Ohio, people would make fun of Kentucky but I couldn't imagine that it would be so bad.The jokes were always there, and it was true to a point outside the cities.

But a friend I had got a job at a technical trade school in Kentucky (or was it Indiana) bringing people up to speed on the skills necessary for a line job.

One of the lessons he taught was teaching people how to use a four function calculator. :(

[Lyle]

Comparing curricula over time, I've watched the ongoing decline in the quality of US education become even worse as the amount of federal involvement has grown... Kinda hard to make me believe there is no causal relationship.I've noticed a decline in quality of education as the buying power of a teachers salary has gone down. Kinda hard not to draw causal relationships there either.I think you're both right to some degree, but I hear more from teachers about the former reason than the latter. In Alabama at least, there's a lot of emphasis on test scores, and teachers are pretty hamstrung with regards to teaching to the state-mandated curriculum. They don't have a lot of freedom to branch out and try new things. To be sure, there are teachers out there who use the excuse of low pay to justify not giving it their best in the classroom; but more often than not, it's good teachers whose efforts are frustrated by a lot of bureaucracy.

[Desertrat]

Y'know, trying to tie worker quality to voting patterns, or educational levels to voting patterns, and looking at entire states has gotta be somewhere down below "dumber'n dirt".

Generally, rural folks tend more toward being conservative than today's city people. "Tend". And, generally, rural folks don't--percentagewise--go off to college as much. The lack of the added education of college is no indicator of intelligence or common sense.

A few years back, I visited a medium-sized ranch north of Marfa, Texas. I regretted not having my camera so I could get a picture of a guy on horseback during roundup--logging ear-tag numbers into his laptop computer. Their whole herd of some 800 Herefords is data-entried as to age, sex, number of calves, ailments if any. It's all laid out on spreadsheets. You figure some $600 per calf, and it's not penny-ante.

Most grain and cotton farms of any size are operated by business software, with strict attention paid to controlling operating costs. The folks may go to some "cow college", but a multi-million dollar family operation isn't successfully run by dummies.

From what I read, there aren't many problems with Saturns. They're made in Tennessee, aren't they? Isn't Mercedes happy with their plant in Carolina? Or is that BMW? At the time the plants were built, articles were published with claims that the productivity was greater than in Germany.

School problems or no school problems, what I can't figure out is how kids AVOID learning certain things: The name of the country bordering the US on the south, for instance. Or, how to make change. Another is not knowing the name of the county one's home town is in, or the name of an adjacent county. How does somebody get to age 18-ish and NOT know that?

'Rat

[mactastic]

Yes but in a district where pay is higher you'll find principals picking from a hundred or more qualified teachers. In other districts you'll find them picking from a dozen mostly underqualified people.

Now I'm not going to argue that there aren't overwhleming problems with federal oversight of education (particularly when it comes to NCLB), but if you aren't starting with the best group of teachers possible, it's all downhill from there.

FWIW, I've never heard a teacher say they wern't giving their all in the classroom because of a lack of money. Lack of incentive to perform is the more likely culprit.

I'd also note that my wife, who just recieved a masters degree in English Literature, is teaching the reading improvement (for people who can't manage to grasp english) classes for a second year now because she proved herself to be good at it, while her school hires new teachers to teach the mainstream literature classes that you'd think you'd want your 'highly qualified teachers' to be teaching.

[mactastic]

HEY! I went to a 'cow college' myself. And look how I turned out.

Ok, maybe that's not a good example...
:D

[mkrishnan]

Maybe lower Ontario should form the 51'st state, or Michigan's eastern peninsula?

Michigan is *always* in the market for another peninsula, especially if it's a good one. :D

[IJ Reilly]

HEY! I went to a 'cow college' myself. And look how I turned out.

Ok, maybe that's not a good example...
:D

Cow Poly. Where the men are men and the sheep are scared.
:)

[mactastic]

Cow Poly. Where the men are men and the sheep are scared.
:)

Yeah, funny how that works... I spend years building houses, but am I known as mactastic the house builder? I've hiked most of the hills hereabouts, but am I known as mactastic the mountain climber? I grow my own veggies, but am I known as mactastic the veggie farmer? But you **** one sheep....
:D

[IJ Reilly]

Reminds me of the story of the little girl with a dog named Porky... oh, never mind.

Graduate of Cow Poly del Sud, btw.

[skunk]

But you **** one sheep....
:DAnd your reputation's flocked.

[Sun Baked]

But you **** one sheep....
:D And your reputation's flocked.Which can be shear misery.

Edit: not to mention all the nicks and cuts you'll get as your reputation is exposed to the world.

[IJ Reilly]

More baaaad jokes. :rolleyes:

[blackfox]

this is a very interesting topic to come up...I am rather embarrassed to say the least.

I am not sure this is a partisan problem, however, as I am not sure either the Liberal or Conservative approach to education these days addresses the root(s) of the problem.

The conservative approach, imo, is to see that the education system is not working as they would like it, and try to somewhat cut their losses with an adherence to a voucher/privatization policy. Imo, this results in a necessary exclusion of those who would least likely to be able to participate - the poorest and usually also the least-educated. This allows the rest (or a % thereof) to acheive better results more quickly, in theory without the lumbering bureaucracy of state-funded education. It also allows a more diverse (less standardized) education, which may fall privy to ideological predation among other pitfalls. Also implicit in this system is a group of cheap, untrained/uneducated labor for our economic system to exploit (also politicians, i suppose).

The Liberal approach imo, seems to be more laudable at least, as they do seem willing to address the needs of a larger amount of students, particularily those most in need. There does seem to be an amount of bureaucratic waste in the system, however, and the standardization of curriculum does seem to potentially hold back those who may be especially gifted and/or learn in a different manner than the mainstream. The very largeness of the system, however, does make it easy prey for manipulative students, teachers, administrators and politicians. While there is no doubt that adding more funding can only help the situation, it is hardly a panacea in itself, if the will and structure are not there.

As for the roots of the problem, I believe they are so multifaceted and interconnected as to render a diagnosis and subsequent solution nearly impossible. I would imagine that it contains the following factors:

- societal changes: The rise of families with both parents working and/or single parent families. More obscure/diffused factors such as the impatience with satisfying wants and lack of responsibility in attaining them, implied in our media, which defines our modern culture for most. The sheer complexity and disparity of more limited resources, may also limit the potential for people to either choose to become educators, or to find their ways to avenues of learning, either actual or psychological.

- political: Intertwined as it is with societal priorities, there seems to be little patience in acheiving results, in an area where real reform/results could very well be generational. Subsequent lack of will to adhere to particular mode of reform and/or inability to do so due to predatory media/politicos. As with many problems, most politicians respond to the needs of the "now" rather than those of the future, when, of course, they will no longer be in office. As an important issue, it will always be vunerable to partisan rhetoric which is often anathema to any real change.

- financial: Good education costs a lot of money, and a well-educated person, while more likely to be a bigger contributer to society/world, is also more likely to cost more to employ in a world where we are more corporatized and where in many cases (not the one at hand), many corporations are willing to train people in specific skill-sets with resultant advantages/cost-benefits. Weak, but possible argument.

- psychological: There is no will, nor much incentive, to be "smart". It is of low priority in our society when you are young, when it is most needed. Thinking is just too hard in tis day and age, when someone (or something) is willing to do it for you. As related to above topics, there is insufficient infrastructure for many people who want to learn, to do so, as they have few avenues to turn towards, lost in the crowded marketplace or atrophied to near-invisibility. Many of the older generations, brought up under a different system/set of circumstances either don't understand/miscontrue/don't care about the problem.

and, like...uhh...some other stuff...

in any case, the real focus should be on critical-thinking skills, which are procedural, rather than what exactly is being taught. I do not think either conservatives or liberals really focus on this element. This being on acheiving wisdom. I think conservatives tend to focus more on making people either marketable or amenable, while liberals seem to focus more on sophistication.

of course, this was all written by someone with a (partial) US education, so it is obviously all ************.

Ta.

[Desertrat]

Lotta good points, blackfox.

I guess one of my own objections to the feds' involvement is the "one size fits all" for so much of federal stuff. What's appropriate for large urban areas, for instance, isn't necessarily the wonderful deal for a rural culture.

If a family isn't "into" education for their kids, with some push for studying and doing homework plus behaving while in class, the kid is likely gonna have some problems. Schools just aren't really geared to act in loco parentis when parents abdicate responsibilities.

Of teachers I know who gave up and quit, the main complaint was not the pay but the problems with discipline. The history of school teachers is one of low pay; it's always been a labor of love--I saw that from the inside...

'Rat

[mactastic]

I don't see the discipline thing driving all the teachers out. The complaint I hear most is the lack of incentive to do well. My dad was telling me a story the other day about a principal who was talking to him about continuing to teach the underachievers. My dad told him he didn't want to teach those classes primarily, that it was a job that should be done by new hires, not your 'highly qualified' teachers. The principal remarked that he wanted my father to continue to teach those classes because he was doing such a good job. My dad remarked "Well thanks. I guess I know how to get out of that position now."

My wife has a masters degree in English Literature and yet she's going to be spending her second year teaching 'Reading Improvement' because she's good at it, and the principal can't find someone who's specialty is language acquisition. Apparently those people are hard to come by (although you'd think that a high enough salary would attract competent people). She's spent roughly $500 - $1000 per academic year she's taught to buy supplies (like books!) that the school won't give her. She's taught with no curriculum, developing it as she goes. She's dealt with administrations that permit parents to demand grade changes 'because he's too busy with football and 4H' to get his homework done'.

And yes, critical thinking skills are the one thing she tries to impart above all else. Even if you don't leave her class reading, you will have been forced to think critically.

So, while there are certainly merit to arguments that one-size-fits-all is a problem, as well as parents not demanding their kids learn (or behave) in school, and systemic beauracratic bloat, the core issues as I see it need some compromise from both sides. Primary and secondary teachers need to give up the protections of permanant status - the equivalent of tenure at the college level - in exchange for a pay-for-performance system that is fair and not tied to the political or personal feelings of any administrator. The curve on the pay scale needs to be steeper, as well as starting and ending at significantly higher levels than it currently does. Give teachers an incentive for obtaining a masters degree.

This will do several things. The 'dead wood' will be let go. Teachers who's hearts aren't in it won't be held onto and allowed to coast to retirement. They can be replaced by the best of a broad and deep pool of applicants. It incentivizes people to perform, and lets face it, people are motivated by money. Other professions recognize this, so why handicap teachers this way? Administrators can make 6 figures, why can't teachers?

[stubeeef]

I note that the new Toyota plant in San Antonio, Texas, will be coming on line soon. 1,500 local-hire jobs, per the San Antonio Express.

Link (http://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/stories/2005/01/24/story3.html)

Toyota Motor Corp. President Fujio Cho says the Japanese automaker will ramp up its production of hybrid, or fuel-conserving, vehicles in the United States.

[miloblithe]

I don't see the discipline thing driving all the teachers out.

I think that depends a lot on the school. I know a couple of people who taught in DC public schools who described the experience as "not only has curriculum taken a back seat to education, it's opened the door and gotten out of the car all together." Still, I pretty much agree with what you're saying. As for teachers nearing retirement though, that's a tought call. It's a tough call to fire someone who's worked hard for 20 years and is kind of worn out and wants to coast. It would be a good move in terms of educational quality if there are enough people who want to be teachers trying to get in, but I'm not sure that's the case. One teacher I knew described the situation this way: when you start you have lots of enthusiasm but you make mistakes because of lack of experience. By the end you lack enthusiasm, but you're very experienced and know what you're doing. It's an oversimplified ideal, but I think there's something to it.

[roadapple]

Michigan is *always* in the market for another peninsula, especially if it's a good one. :D

Honestly, anyone who has done business with firms form Ontario know that they are businessmen of like mind. I would even propose that Toronto be the new capital of State of Michigan, if it came to that.

[Xtremehkr]

When Toyota opened a factory in San Antonio it was laying down the gauntlet with Ford. San Antonio is now where Toyota produces the Tundra, making their intentions concerning the F150s spot clear. Let's hope Ford treats this seriously.

It's a real shame that some states are no performing as well as they should when it comes to education.

It would make a great topic for the media to cover, when they are not concerned with that Holloway girl, runaway brides, Michael Jackson, or UFO's. Fascinating to see Larry King covering UFOs tonight, great broadcasting CNN.

[Desertrat]

"Primary and secondary teachers need to give up the protections of permanant status - the equivalent of tenure at the college level - in exchange for a pay-for-performance system that is fair and not tied to the political or personal feelings of any administrator. The curve on the pay scale needs to be steeper, as well as starting and ending at significantly higher levels than it currently does. Give teachers an incentive for obtaining a masters degree.

This will do several things. The 'dead wood' will be let go. Teachers who's hearts aren't in it won't be held onto and allowed to coast to retirement. They can be replaced by the best of a broad and deep pool of applicants. It incentivizes people to perform, and lets face it, people are motivated by money."

mac, I agree to a point, but a problem here in Texas is that most of the costs of schools is borne by property taxes. These taxes are the greatest cost to the public after our sales tax. There is a state-law limit to the percentage that can be applied, and most districts are right there. Land- and home-owners are right at being in a state of revolt, already. Advocating a state income tax is how a legislator can ensure early retirement.

I've always commented that government at any level is allocating a shortage of funds among competing interests. There's no such thing as unlimited funds for government activities. Schools compete against all other forms of social spending, as well as the spending for infrastructure. TANSTAAFL...

'Rat

[mactastic]

I understand the concept of the lack of a free lunch. However, just because it's difficult doesn't mean it shouldn't or can't be done. Somehow we can find $250 billion over the last 2 years or so to put a bad dude in jail, but you're telling me there's no possible way to find funds to bring up the wages of the educators?

How about we cut some bloat from the administration and give the money saved to teachers salaries?

[stubeeef]

Rat,
Belated birthday wishes!
My wife is a teacher, my mom is a retired teacher.

My first step would be to eliminate the Dept of Education. The last I saw about 60¢ of every dollar they get makes it to the class room. Would love them to get the other 40¢. Since inception scores haven't moved. Teachers don't need more bureacracy to make them better teachers, they need talent, resources, and an enviornment to teach in.
I would love a national school uniform too.

[alex_ant]

As a former cartography major I would just like to point out how misleading the US education map presented in the first post is. It maps education level by county which makes larger emptier areas redder, the scale bar uses arbitrary values, and the color shading makes EVERYONE look under-educated since all areas are at least pink. An equivalent map of better-educated-per-capita Canada would probably look even worse if you applied the same criteria to it. Please read the book "How to Lie with Maps" by Mark Monmonier.

[Desertrat]

"How about we cut some bloat from the administration and give the money saved to teachers salaries?"

BINGO!!!

Remember that a very high percentage of all these administrators exist due to various do-good notions given us by the US D.ofEdu. A Tallahassee, FL, newspaper article some ten years back claimed that the admisitrative staff of the school district equalled the number of teachers.

In 1940, Austintatious was 87,00 people. There was a school superintendant and two secretaries. Period. End of "administration".

I started Austin High School in 1948. We had a principal and an asst. principal and three secretaries. The largest student body of any high school in Texas at 3,500.

My son started high school in 1973. Principal. Two assistant principals. Dean of Men plus asst. dean. Dean of Women plus asst. dean. Total clerical staff of some 30 people. Crockett High School was 3,000 students.

In my heaviest partying years I couldn't piddle money away that fast!

'Rat

"Gettin' old beats hell out of the alternative." -- 'Rat

[mactastic]

You act like you think I'm in support of beauracratic bloat... I don't mind national standards or things like that, but just because I think there should be a national education effort doesn't mean I think we should invent layers of beaurocracy to protect the administrators butts.

Remember, I'm on the side of the teachers, not the administration. The two are often confused or lumped together.

[stubeeef]

"How about we cut some bloat from the administration and give the money saved to teachers salaries?"

BINGO!!!

Remember that a very high percentage of all these administrators exist due to various do-good notions given us by the US D.ofEdu. A Tallahassee, FL, newspaper article some ten years back claimed that the admisitrative staff of the school district equalled the number of teachers.

In 1940, Austintatious was 87,00 people. There was a school superintendant and two secretaries. Period. End of "administration".

I started Austin High School in 1948. We had a principal and an asst. principal and three secretaries. The largest student body of any high school in Texas at 3,500.

My son started high school in 1973. Principal. Two assistant principals. Dean of Men plus asst. dean. Dean of Women plus asst. dean. Total clerical staff of some 30 people. Crockett High School was 3,000 students.

In my heaviest partying years I couldn't piddle money away that fast!

'Rat

"Gettin' old beats hell out of the alternative." -- 'Rat

Times thousands of schools all over the US. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Xtremehkr]

I really don't think that enough is known about the education system and how it works to be able to so quickly lay blame. Unless there are some experts on the matter here.

[Xtremehkr]

Link. (http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/050630/b0630102.html)

WOODSTOCK, Ont. (CP) - Ontario workers are well-trained.

That simple explanation was cited as a main reason why Toyota turned its back on hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies offered from several American states in favour of building a second Ontario plant.

Industry experts say Ontarians are easier and cheaper to train - helping make it more cost-efficient to train workers when the new Woodstock plant opens in 2008, 40 kilometres away from its skilled workforce in Cambridge.

"The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the southeastern United States," said Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant.

Acknowledging it was the "worst-kept secret" throughout Ontario's automotive industry, Toyota confirmed months of speculation Thursday by announcing plans to build a 1,300-worker factory in the southwestern Ontario city.

"Welcome to Woodstock - that's something I've been waiting a long time to say," Ray Tanguay, president of Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada, told hundreds gathered at a high school gymnasium.

The plant will produce the RAV-4, dubbed by some as a "mini sport-utility vehicle" that Toyota currently makes only in Japan. It plans to build 100,000 vehicles annually.

The factory will cost $800 million to build, with the federal and provincial governments kicking in $125 million of that to help cover research, training and infrastructure costs.

Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double that amount of subsidy. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.

"The educational level and the skill level of the people down there is so much lower than it is in Ontario," Fedchun said.

In addition to lower training costs, Canadian workers are also $4 to $5 cheaper to employ partly thanks to the taxpayer-funded health-care system in Canada, said federal Industry Minister David Emmerson.

"Most people don't think of our health-care system as being a competitive advantage," he said.

Tanguay said Toyota's decision on where to build its seventh North American plant was "not only about money."

"It's about being in the right place," he said, noting the company can rely on the expertise of experienced Cambridge workers to help get Woodstock up and running.

Premier Dalton McGuinty said the money the province and Ottawa are pledging for the project is well-spent. His government has committed $400 million, including the latest Toyota package, to the province's auto sector, which helped finance $5-billion worth of industry projects.

"I think that's a great investment that will more than pay for itself in terms of new jobs and new economic returns," McGuinty said.

The provincial funds for the auto sector were drawn from a fund set up to attract investments specifically in that industry. McGuinty said no similar industry funds are being planned for other sectors, but added the province wants to attract biotechnology companies - those working on multibillion-dollar advanced medical research.

"What we have done for auto we would like to be able to do for biotech," he said. "That's where we're lending some real focus to at the present time."

Similarly, Emmerson said Ottawa is looking to help out industries that create "clusters" of jobs around them - such as in aerospace, shipbuilding, telecommunications and forestry - where supply bases build around a large manufacturer.


Education matters. And not just for those who are willing to pay for it. Let's face it, those who are willing to sacrifice the finances needed to send their kids to a private school are not hoping that their kids will one day end up on a Toyota assembly line.

[zimv20]

there didn't seem to be too much compunction about mentioning the problem states and area by name. because i'm an evil bastard, i got a nice chuckle out of it.

and i'm w/ IJR when he says that we'll see nationalized healthcare only when the corps start demanding it.

[Desertrat]

mac, I took it for granted you're aginst bloat. The thing is, way too many "just folks" don't have a clue about how many school district employees are involved in non-academic stuff that is mandated by state and federal "good ideas".

"...because I think there should be a national education effort..." is one of those things that I agree sounds good. My view of that is the stuff that comes along with this national effort. Sorta like flies and cockroaches: It's not what they eat; it's what they mess up.

xtremehkr's comment shows the lack of trust in your knowledge of the local school systems, or of my own--in spite of our commentaries from first-hand personal knowledge. One need not work at a school to know what's going on.

'Rat

[mactastic]

Hey, it's the same crap that comes with every large agency, be it public or private. Greed, corruption, middle management waste... do you think those are limited to the public sector? Hell, some business the government has contracted out to the private sector has ended up wasting $300 million (http://www.airportbusiness.com/article/article.jsp?id=2574&siteSection=5) taxpayer dollars, when private contracting was supposed to save us money.

I mean, we might as well not do anything nationally by that standard.

[tristan]

US education rates are high in some areas and lower in others. Same with labor rates. The problem with Toyota is that it wants both high education and low labor rates, and that's not how it works - you generally get one or the other. Canada is probably more consistent.

Toyota also has another reason for moving production to Canada - currency arbitrage. When the canadian dollar falls relative to the US dollar, they can make greater profits by moving more auto production to Canada.

Don't underestimate Canada - if it wasn't living in the US's shadow, it'd be considered the most advanced economy in the world. It's GDP is over $1T and it's got 33m well-educated people. Its corporate tax rates are actually lower than ours (because there's no corporate state tax). It has easy immigration policies, a balanced budget, better quality of life, plenty of natural resources, and a stronger currency. The country has become more competitive over time, while we've become less competitive.

[Xtremehkr]

US education rates are high in some areas and lower in others. Same with labor rates. The problem with Toyota is that it wants both high education and low labor rates, and that's not how it works - you generally get one or the other. Canada is probably more consistent.

Toyota also has another reason for moving production to Canada - currency arbitrage. When the canadian dollar falls relative to the US dollar, they can make greater profits by moving more auto production to Canada.

Don't underestimate Canada - if it wasn't living in the US's shadow, it'd be considered the most advanced economy in the world. It's GDP is over $1T and it's got 33m well-educated people. Its corporate tax rates are actually lower than ours (because there's no corporate state tax). It has easy immigration policies, a balanced budget, better quality of life, plenty of natural resources, and a stronger currency. The country has become more competitive over time, while we've become less competitive.

That is a popular argument lately, but Toyota likes to advertise that they manufacture their vehicles in the US. It also helps their image when they reinvest in the economy that they sell to. Toyota is sitting on more than 100 Billion in cash, it is worth more than the big three put together. I am sure the currency differences help, but I am not sure that it is a major reason.

[Desertrat]

Thank you, mac. You sorta add to a point I've made from time to time over the years.

"Hey, it's the same crap that comes with every large agency, be it public or private. Greed, corruption, middle management waste... do you think those are limited to the public sector?"

The private sector waste of private money is sorta self-healing: They keep it up, they can easily go broke. Government, having no profit incentive, just raises taxes--while the waste continues.

Giant corporations--my year at GM reminds me--get as hide-bound as a major public agency. To a great extent, bureaucrats are bureaucrats, no matter who they work for.

Again, I have no great problem with national standards. But I don't see where national standards require myriads of administrators who are not involved in classroom aspects of our public education system. My question is why are SO MANY needed now, when radically fewer took care of business in the past? Yeah, "the world has changed", but it seems to me that we've gone overboard with all the feds' "orders". ("You do it our way or we'll cut off federal funds.") Ever hear a classroom teacher speak glowingly of the fun of all this testing?

'Rat

[mactastic]

Oh you mean self-healing in the way that Enron healed itself? Or WorldCom? Or perhaps in the way the airlines do?

Come on, governments raise taxes, corporations bankrupt their investors or their dependants. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. BTW, you don't suppose any government money will go to those who lost their shirts do you? Pension bailouts perhaps? Subsidies to failing businesses? Medicare for retirees who otherwise would have been able to afford private health care insurance?

I know what you're getting at, but I think as I've often said, that you have far too much faith in the private sector. Humans are humans, and as such, have the same flaws whether they work for the government or the private sector.

[Desertrat]

Mornin', mac. You missed a helluva birthday bash party, last night. We floated the keg. About eight of us have birthdays in late June, early July. so, the "Big Bend Birthday Bash". Pickin' and grinnin' and singin' and tall tales and visiting around. Everything from early Bob Dylan to ,"I just finished this, last week." Maybeso fifty folks showed up.

Look: There are some ten thousand publicly-traded corporations in the NY exchanges--and a bunch more in other exchanges around the world. A half-dozen giganticos go down in flames; some from crookedness, some form changing times. That's the history of corporations since they invented Lloyd's of London. Sure, an Enron is rough on a lot of people, but it's a trivial thing in a countrry with a GDP and population the size of ours.

Folks don't even begin to snap to what brought down Enron. They made bad decisions in the derivatives markets. Think what it means to know that there's some $80 TRILLION paper dollars in that market; think what it means if several others make wrong decisions. Folks got so focussed on a few guys trying to save their butts that it still isn't realized how big is the risk for the entire world's banking systems. (Except maybe China's.) To me, Enron and Ken Lay represented the second red spot in a potential smallpox epidemic; Long Term Capital Management was the first.

Private sector investors have choices; taxpayers have none. Investors know (or damned well should know) there are risks; taxpayers are told all's well and they'll be taken care of, along with the kids and relatives and all will be warm, safe and snuggly.

We are in "interesting times" per that ancient Chinese curse; changing times and what's happening to many corporations today is no different from the time the US had over a hundred railway companies or around a hundred car manufacturers. You cannot legislate risk out of life.

Regardless, the private sector has provided the material quality of life we have today. The personal quality of life is up to the individual.

'Rat

[skunk]

Regardless, the private sector has provided the material quality of life we have today. The personal quality of life is up to the individual.Don't you think that the reining in of unbridled personal and corporate power by legislation has anything to do with it?

[Desertrat]

skunk, I don't see how reining in power/greed had anything to do with what got invented or what got manufactured. Reining in GM didn't make cars better, as reining in the trusts or other corporate folks made trains run on time or gave us nuclear power or wind generators. That reining in didn't add to the efforts to invent the laptop computer or flush toilets or whatever.

Government efforts such as NASA paid for basic research in areas to meet specific needs. Spinoffs from those took off in all manner of unexpected directions as folks in the private sector figured out remunerative uses for all manner of new toys never envisioned by those who wanted to go into space.

Ideally, seems to me, there should be a cooperative effort through all sectors, but all should keep in mind that there's no such thing as unlimited funding for any and every idea.

Again, my own observation for long-haul views in the private sector is that the profit motive creates more efficiency of operation than exists in the no-profit-motive public sector. This is one place I've had a multitude of discussions and a lot of observation. My father worked 41 years in the Texas Highway Department, becoming head of the Materials & Tests Division. I worked eleven years for the Texas Water Development Board, and then four years in a mix of state/federal stuff before I dropped out into penny-ante entrepreneuring.

'Rat

[mactastic]

Mornin', mac. You missed a helluva birthday bash party, last night. We floated the keg. About eight of us have birthdays in late June, early July. so, the "Big Bend Birthday Bash". Pickin' and grinnin' and singin' and tall tales and visiting around. Everything from early Bob Dylan to ,"I just finished this, last week." Maybeso fifty folks showed up.
Sounds like good times. :)

Look: There are some ten thousand publicly-traded corporations in the NY exchanges--and a bunch more in other exchanges around the world. A half-dozen giganticos go down in flames; some from crookedness, some form changing times. That's the history of corporations since they invented Lloyd's of London. Sure, an Enron is rough on a lot of people, but it's a trivial thing in a countrry with a GDP and population the size of ours.

Folks don't even begin to snap to what brought down Enron. They made bad decisions in the derivatives markets. Think what it means to know that there's some $80 TRILLION paper dollars in that market; think what it means if several others make wrong decisions. Folks got so focussed on a few guys trying to save their butts that it still isn't realized how big is the risk for the entire world's banking systems. (Except maybe China's.) To me, Enron and Ken Lay represented the second red spot in a potential smallpox epidemic; Long Term Capital Management was the first.
And of course the answer is that there are thousands of government organizations, only a few of which have spectacular waste. Some abuse, sure. But surely no worse than what the average business owner pulls in fudging the line between business and personal expenses.

Private sector investors have choices; taxpayers have none. Investors know (or damned well should know) there are risks; taxpayers are told all's well and they'll be taken care of, along with the kids and relatives and all will be warm, safe and snuggly.
Investors have choices when they are sure management isn't doing anything illegal. But when was the last time a company announced it was doing illegal things as a favor to it's investors? Investors know there is a risk, but the companies are always saying everything is fine, everyone kids relatives and all will be taken care of. So there's risk in government ventures too. You're trying to tell me that you figured out that even when companies tell you things are OK that there's some risk despite what they say, and that you haven't managed to get that far with government? Come on 'Rat, I know you know this.

We are in "interesting times" per that ancient Chinese curse; changing times and what's happening to many corporations today is no different from the time the US had over a hundred railway companies or around a hundred car manufacturers. You cannot legislate risk out of life.
Nor can you legislate it out of the private or public sector.

Regardless, the private sector has provided the material quality of life we have today. The personal quality of life is up to the individual.

'Rat
And the government has provided the framework for that quality of life to be both discovered and lived. Private and public sectors are both absolutely necessary, and both perform similar but different functions that we cannot exist without. I just distrust them both equally, while you seem to trust one but not the other, despite them both being run by the same flawed humans.

[Desertrat]

mac, looking through your post, I think where we differ, mostly, is that I see the efficiency in the use of money and time as being better in the private sector.

My perception through the years is that it takes much longer to get governmental projects or programs moving than in the private sector, for instance. The red-tape thing, with all the i-dotting and t-crossing. Inefficient...

I fully agree that we need government to provide a framework for the private sector to do its thing. However imperfectly, that framework gave us navigation canals and then railroads and then airlines, for instance. A good example of the benefits of cooperation between private and public is the Internet itself.

My main gripe is that IMO we've just added and added and added more and more governmental efforts in snooping and in pushing to make everybody into the round pegs to fit in the round holes so beloved of bureaucrats. Too much control over us, in almost every facet of life...

'Rat

[mactastic]

mac, looking through your post, I think where we differ, mostly, is that I see the efficiency in the use of money and time as being better in the private sector.

My perception through the years is that it takes much longer to get governmental projects or programs moving than in the private sector, for instance. The red-tape thing, with all the i-dotting and t-crossing. Inefficient...
Here's the thing - I see both as having certain different types of efficiencies built in. Private corps are good at looking out for themselves. This leads to (theoretically) lower costs for goods, higher pay for workers, better ways of doing things etc. All the benefits that a capitalists incentive-driven system should provide. However, corporations are not good at looking at the welfare of anyone beyond themselves. Thus the need for government and it's regulatory ability. Do I trust either of them to work to their theoretical potential? Hell no.

Theoretically (again) the government will take a look at the big picture. It will tell a corporation that it can't build a pig rendering plant upwind of a city, even when the corporation's interests say that's the best location. Regional planning issues are just one area where private interests should not be making decisions. Input, sure. Final say on what gets built where? No way.

Government and industry are necessary counterpoints to each other. Without a private industry there is no incentive. Without a government there is a mad race to get richest fastest and damn the torpedos or any future generations that come after us.

I fully agree that we need government to provide a framework for the private sector to do its thing. However imperfectly, that framework gave us navigation canals and then railroads and then airlines, for instance. A good example of the benefits of cooperation between private and public is the Internet itself.

My main gripe is that IMO we've just added and added and added more and more governmental efforts in snooping and in pushing to make everybody into the round pegs to fit in the round holes so beloved of bureaucrats. Too much control over us, in almost every facet of life...

'Rat
I've never argued that government should get bigger just for the sake of getting bigger. I'm in favor of sweeping accountability in government just as I am in the private sector. I'd like to see more of the type of approach to the size of government Clinton had: shrink it. But shrinking government doesn't mean closing the libraries, or cutting funding for PBS or eliminating the department of Education because you think they're full of liberals. It means people have to justify their existance to their bosses throughout government, and those bosses have to justify their existance to others. It means finding ways to make sure you're working with the best interests of the people at heart, not the interests of your largest donors.

[Desertrat]

"It means people have to justify their existance to their bosses throughout government..."

Yeah; that's why I favor zero-based budgeting and Sunset Commissions. It's been helpful in Texas. It's not necessarily a "the answer" deal, but it's better than prior budget-control efforts.

'Rat

[Xtremehkr]

'Rat, corporations are most concerned with profit and are much harder to regulate than government officials who can be removed from office. Additionally, it is a lot more difficult to examine the how well a private enterprise is doing compared to a public one.

The public education system works very well is most of the rest of the world. The US used to be a world leader in this field. Given what has happened in fields like the de-regulated energy market, this is an area where I would like to have more say in.

If you want a private school education, home school or hire a tutor. The option is there, I don't see the point in the government sponsoring private schools, that is ridiculously inefficient. Even a small tax cut related to the size of your income, the more agencies you send your money through the less you are going to get out of it.

[Desertrat]

"'Rat, corporations are most concerned with profit and are much harder to regulate than government officials who can be removed from office."

If you're talking about elected folks, I gotta disagree; certainly as it applies to the Congress. As for bureaucrats, there are reasons for a couple of ancient jokes: Before NASA, around where I worked in the State of Texas, the joke was, the only way a man could get fired was to be caught in bed with a live man or a dead woman. Then came NASA and the joke that they'd name a rocket "Civil Service": "You can't fire it and you can't get it to work."

I think I've commented before that my mother told me that the beginnings of today's problems with public schools were becoming obvious in the 1930s. The question was, "How is that we send eager, want-to-learn kids into the First Grade, and by the Sixth Grade they're burned out and bored?"

My mother taught Psych at the U of TX; she got her PhD in 1942. Both her parents had been teaching school for decades. The Psych Dept was active in teaching-methods assessments. My elementary and my junior high schools were affiliated with the U of TX.

'Rat

[Xtremehkr]

xtremehkr's comment shows the lack of trust in your knowledge of the local school systems, or of my own--in spite of our commentaries from first-hand personal knowledge. One need not work at a school to know what's going on.

'Rat

In a nation of 280 million people, first hand examples can be misleading. They can also be helpful, but that is not to say that a problem that exists in one state is applicable to all states. Toyota was able to open plants in California, even though Californians by and large are not happy with the education system either. Ahnold cutting funds recently cannot have helped either. What I am saying is that a problem as potentially serious as this one should be getting much more attention than simply speculation among unorganized individuals on the internet. I am in no way saying that anyone who has commented to make a positive difference is wrong, just that the national scope of the problem is probably beyond any individual poster I have come across here.

[Xtremehkr]

"'Rat, corporations are most concerned with profit and are much harder to regulate than government officials who can be removed from office."

If you're talking about elected folks, I gotta disagree; certainly as it applies to the Congress. As for bureaucrats, there are reasons for a couple of ancient jokes: Before NASA, around where I worked in the State of Texas, the joke was, the only way a man could get fired was to be caught in bed with a live man or a dead woman. Then came NASA and the joke that they'd name a rocket "Civil Service": "You can't fire it and you can't get it to work."

I think I've commented before that my mother told me that the beginnings of today's problems with public schools were becoming obvious in the 1930s. The question was, "How is that we send eager, want-to-learn kids into the First Grade, and by the Sixth Grade they're burned out and bored?"

My mother taught Psych at the U of TX; she got her PhD in 1942. Both her parents had been teaching school for decades. The Psych Dept was active in teaching-methods assessments. My elementary and my junior high schools were affiliated with the U of TX.

'Rat

'Rat, you quote a lot of people and by should know that without any substantive information I am reluctant to accept information from an unknown source no matter how closely related they are to you. I have no way of verifying anything you have said, and a degree is no guarantee of anything unless supported by actions that prove they know what they are doing.

If that is case, then you should easily be able to provide something for me that documents those claims.

At the very least, I ask that you rely less on unknowable (from where I am) sources and more on sources that we can both research and evaluate.

My great Uncle Tolwey said that corporate education would be the downfall of free knowledge. He had a Doctorate in Post Feminate Literature and Geology. He may also have had heavy lead poisoning for all we know.

[mac-er]

Old news...this was discussed in another thread long ago.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=136106