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D-a-a-n
Apr 19, 2012, 03:14 PM
I only have one apple device, a MBP:

As I see it, the "new" "top" "features" are:

- iCloud -> yeah..don't have an iPhone
- Messages -> i'm sorry everybody is on facebook chat nowadays..
- Reminders + Notes + Notification Center -> have already applications for that
- airPlay -> sorry don't own a appleTV
- twitter + share sheets -> <sarcasm> waw.. must've taken them a full year to implement that one.. </sarcasm
- gamecenter -> *cough* steam

So, what are the big features for people who don't own iDevices? Any under the hood speed improvements? When will they split iTunes into 3 apps?

Sorry for ranting!



blueroom
Apr 19, 2012, 03:16 PM
If you don't need it don't buy it.

hafr
Apr 19, 2012, 03:22 PM
I only have one apple device, a MBP:

As I see it, the "new" "top" "features" are:

- iCloud -> yeah..don't have an iPhone
- Messages -> i'm sorry everybody is on facebook chat nowadays..
- Reminders + Notes + Notification Center -> have already applications for that
- airPlay -> sorry don't own a appleTV
- twitter + share sheets -> <sarcasm> waw.. must've taken them a full year to implement that one.. </sarcasm
- gamecenter -> *cough* steam

So, what are the big features for people who don't own iDevices? Any under the hood speed improvements? When will they split iTunes into 3 apps?

Sorry for ranting!

To me, Mountain Lion is for Lion what Windows 7 was for Vista. It's just... Better. In a word, ItFeelsSnappier :)

tkermit
Apr 19, 2012, 03:59 PM
I'm hoping for lots of little improvements that might make ML worthwhile (depending on the cost) to me. The advertised features don't really blow me away either.... Reminders, Notes and Messages it seems could have been shipped independently from an OS update and don't really bring much additional functionality with them anyway, Notification Center already exists in the form of Growl, Share Sheets, Twitter and Game Center seem a bit silly from my point of view. That leaves iCloud integration, AirPlay Mirroring and Gatekeeper....nice to have, but still a bit underwhelming for a whole new OS.

scottsjack
Apr 19, 2012, 07:01 PM
I only have one apple device, a MBP:

As I see it, the "new" "top" "features" are:

- iCloud -> yeah..don't have an iPhone
- Messages -> i'm sorry everybody is on facebook chat nowadays..
- Reminders + Notes + Notification Center -> have already applications for that
- airPlay -> sorry don't own a appleTV
- twitter + share sheets -> <sarcasm> waw.. must've taken them a full year to implement that one.. </sarcasm
- gamecenter -> *cough* steam

So, what are the big features for people who don't own iDevices? Any under the hood speed improvements? When will they split iTunes into 3 apps?

Sorry for ranting!

Agree. Of your list I only use iCloud for iCal, the rest of the "features" were written for somebody else. However if ML has performance enhancements over Lion it will be worth the few bucks Apple probably wants for it. I'm really looking forward to moving out of Lion.

nuckinfutz
Apr 19, 2012, 07:18 PM
I'm hoping for lots of little improvements that might make ML worthwhile (depending on the cost) to me. The advertised features don't really blow me away either.... Reminders, Notes and Messages it seems could have been shipped independently from an OS update and don't really bring much additional functionality with them anyway, Notification Center already exists in the form of Growl, Share Sheets, Twitter and Game Center seem a bit silly from my point of view. That leaves iCloud integration, AirPlay Mirroring and Gatekeeper....nice to have, but still a bit underwhelming for a whole new OS.

What would blow you away?

Jobs said "people don't know what they want until you show it to them"

Everyone wants to be blown away but for the life me they can never state what features are missing that would blow them away.

I think it's because these people are expecting a fantasy. It's easy to sit back and dream about features that are Earth Shattering when you don't have to take them into the context of reality.

I think software development mirrors the evolution of life. It's primarily step-by-step iteration and every now and then it take a larger jump forward.

To me Mountain Lion represents the second act of the OS before we precede to that larger jump (which I view as cloud centric personal networks where we all have a surprising amount of mobile and desktop/notebook devices)

wpotere
Apr 19, 2012, 07:44 PM
To me, Mountain Lion is for Lion what Windows 7 was for Vista. It's just... Better. In a word, ItFeelsSnappier :)


Yeah, except that Microsoft fixed Vista and Lion is still crap!

Jagardn
Apr 19, 2012, 07:52 PM
Yeah, except that Microsoft fixed Vista and Lion is still crap!

Have you tried Windows 8. Mountain Lion is a dream compared to that s&@t sandwich.

wpotere
Apr 19, 2012, 07:58 PM
Have you tried Windows 8. Mountain Lion is a dream compared to that s&@t sandwich.

Actually I have and what you are playing with is not a complete product. It is just designed to give us a preview of what they are working on. There are quite a few things that are being discussed for changes. So before you compare the two, you might want to actually give them a chance to even get it to Beta....

throAU
Apr 19, 2012, 07:59 PM
So, what are the big features for people who don't own iDevices? Any under the hood speed improvements? When will they split iTunes into 3 apps?

Sorry for ranting!

- application code signing for increased security
- more complete/widespread application sandboxing
- updates to OpenGL and other libraries for improved performance / new hardware support

For me, the headline feature is application code signing/sandboxing, though this is somewhat implemented in Lion, I would wager that the release of mountain lion is when it is pushed hard.


If you're just after "teh shiny!" then I doubt it will be a big upgrade for you.

If you care about security, you may think otherwise.

Contrary to change-fearing, clue-scarce whiners, the ability to enforce code signing on your mac (i.e., user choice) will be a big win. Even trojans that trick the user into allowing them to run will generate a warning or be terminated (depending on system preference) by the OS before they do any damage, unless they also figure out a way to bypass the code-signing AND break out of the sandbox.


Humans (even clever ones) are fallible. Relying on "only downloading from sites you trust", whilst good practice isn't a silver bullet. Software repositories get hacked (even kernel.org, the linux kernel source repository).

Malware writers are getting more literate and making trojans look more legit. A lack of correct digital certificate on an app may just be the difference between even a fairly competent user selecting to run an app or not - all the big software companies will have digital certs, if an app pretending to be say, an update for Office or whatever is NOT signed, then you know its dodgy, even if you downloaded it from somewhere usually reputable.

And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if individual users think they are clever enough to not need it (chances are, if you think this way you actually have only half a clue and haven't thought about this issue quite so much). Also, there are millions out there who aren't and reducing the likelihood of those machines from becoming part of a botnet that sends the rest of us spam is a good thing.


edit:
My job involves network security...

Lunfai
Apr 19, 2012, 08:05 PM
Actually I have and what you are playing with is not a complete product. It is just designed to give us a preview of what they are working on. There are quite a few things that are being discussed for changes. So before you compare the two, you might want to actually give them a chance to even get it to Beta....

It's already in beta, Windows 8 Consumer Preview.

I like both, hopefully will use them more in the future, there's small features that have been added to both I like, and they seem more snappier, a lot of the back end was optimised on both operating systems.

chrono1081
Apr 19, 2012, 08:07 PM
What would blow you away?

Jobs said "people don't know what they want until you show it to them"

Everyone wants to be blown away but for the life me they can never state what features are missing that would blow them away.

I think it's because these people are expecting a fantasy. It's easy to sit back and dream about features that are Earth Shattering when you don't have to take them into the context of reality.

I think software development mirrors the evolution of life. It's primarily step-by-step iteration and every now and then it take a larger jump forward.

To me Mountain Lion represents the second act of the OS before we precede to that larger jump (which I view as cloud centric personal networks where we all have a surprising amount of mobile and desktop/notebook devices)

This whole statement, especially the bolded part.

Mac OS is very refined, theres really not much to add at this point.

wpotere
Apr 19, 2012, 08:18 PM
It's already in beta, Windows 8 Consumer Preview.

I like both, hopefully will use them more in the future, there's small features that have been added to both I like, and they seem more snappier, a lot of the back end was optimised on both operating systems.

That is not considered Beta, it is only a consumer preview. I have a full MSDN account and when it goes Beta, it will say Beta. This is a pre-beta release just to get feedback as it is a huge deviation from the norm. They have already incorporated a lot of the items that many of us have suggested.

Lunfai
Apr 19, 2012, 08:19 PM
This whole statement, especially the bolded part.

Mac OS is very refined, theres really not much to add at this point.

Yepp. The new os'es to me are aimed at a very niche or certain market (ML = Apple owners who would presumably have other apple products, W8 = extending the windows family to Tablet consumers, ARM). It's both different market strategies but it will be interesting to see them develop.

I understand very well why Apple chose to extend these functionalities to the desktop. Not everyone likes them, but they also get the choice of upgrading and even if they did buy it just for the optimisations, they don't have to use all these new iDevice features.

But for the life of me, I want iTunes redone. I just think its a cluster of bulk to me. I wouldn't mind if they just made it a standard music player and then have an iTunes Connect type app where it does the iPhone syncing and management of applications. Both separate apps but still retains one software package.

This would end the whining of those who use iTunes purely for music to stop complaining about the bulk of iDevice syncing and the management of iDevice would be a lot more user friendly because it's their own application now.

As for the general UI of ML, I like it. I like the Grey noise window chromed over Snow Leopard. Everything is very clean, and it's not too insertive to the eyes, but icons are clean and clear.

throAU
Apr 19, 2012, 08:24 PM
This whole statement, especially the bolded part.

Mac OS is very refined, theres really not much to add at this point.

Kinda sorta along the lines of what I was getting at.

"teh shiny" is basically done.


however, under the covers, the mechanics of it all are due to be cleaned up and secured properly.

The practice of allowing any code to run under the assumption that where you downloaded it from is trustworthy has proven (during the past 15 years) to be broken.

Without some sort of third party validation, there's no way of knowing that the code you are downloading is safe (or rather, compiled and published by who it claims to be developed by), short of downloading it via source, and then auditing the source line by line for suspicious behavior before compiling it yourself (with a trusted compiler).

And very few users have the time or ability to do that.

Even if some dodgy code ends up on your mac from a programmer who signs it with a valid cert - as soon as apple is notified and confirm the behavior, they can turn the certificate off and it will no longer run unless the user turns code signing checks off.

Lunfai
Apr 19, 2012, 08:25 PM
That is not considered Beta, it is only a consumer preview. I have a full MSDN account and when it goes Beta, it will say Beta. This is a pre-beta release just to get feedback as it is a huge deviation from the norm. They have already incorporated a lot of the items that many of us have suggested.

Pretty sure it's beta my friend. Developer Preview was the pre beta that was released when it was first announced for testing and this was aimed for developers. The next release was Consumer Preview, which was stated as a beta renamed, and is the most current release build 8250.

The next public build before RTM will be called Release Preview which is basically renamed Release Candidate, and will be released soon.

At this stage how can it not be in beta, they are going to hit RTM in summer/fall time.

chrono1081
Apr 19, 2012, 08:28 PM
As long as the programs I use most are compatible within 6 months I'll be happy :)

I'm looking at you:

Maya
ZBrush
Houdini
Unity 3D
Corel Painter
Photoshop CS6
After Effects

and, wishful thinking since its not on OSX yet, Mari.

tkermit
Apr 19, 2012, 08:28 PM
What would blow you away?

I was impressed by Lion's feature set, ML seems relatively boring to me. I mean, seriously, Notes and Reminders is one of the headline features?! Two features that already exist and have merely been moved to their own applications now?

On the other hand, I've come to appreciate many of Lion's features that Apple didn't choose to advertise much, like the quicklook previews added to Spotlight and Stacks – so I'm looking forward to similar improvements that were hopefully made in ML.

Anyway, off the top of my head, I'd really love to see:

- A Metadata-centric Finder
- the ability to create, save and close files without having to give them a file name or assign a specific location in the file system
- functionality to have more metadata automatically appended to files, like the location it was created at or last edited
- A new modern and reliable file system (with support for snapshots/redundancy/data integrity), something like ZFS (ideally written with SSDs in mind)
=> which would allow you to go back in time to a previous snapshot even with no TM disk attached.
- Having Versions as well as Time Machine plug into features of the file system
- Faster boot times (Windows 8 has a feature where only the user session is closed while the kernel session is hibernated, resulting in 30-70% faster boot times)
- A book reader la iBooks
- formerly available editing features return to Quicktime Player (i'd be willing to pay for that, just as we had to in the past)
- the ability to zoom the UI of apps in the same way that you can zoom into webpages using the trackpad
- the possibility for apps to start in what amounts to a VM, completely separated from the rest of the system (Sandboxing++)

throAU
Apr 19, 2012, 08:31 PM
=> which would allow you to go back in time to a previous snapshot even with no TM disk attached.

If you use a portable, time machine on lion already does this via local time machine backups.

If you're on a desktop mac, you may be able to turn it on using the tmutil shell command.


Essentially time machine takes snapshots in the background and rolls them up to your time machine storage when it becomes available.

If you run out of disk in the meantime, it will re-claim old local time machine snapshots for usage by the OS if required.

As far as zoom goes, you can zoom your whole desktop using the control key (from memory, don't have my mac here to check).


edit:
I agree, I'd love to see ZFS on OS X though.

nuckinfutz
Apr 19, 2012, 08:35 PM
I only have one apple device, a MBP:

As I see it, the "new" "top" "features" are:

- iCloud -> yeah..don't have an iPhone
- Messages -> i'm sorry everybody is on facebook chat nowadays..
- Reminders + Notes + Notification Center -> have already applications for that
- airPlay -> sorry don't own a appleTV
- twitter + share sheets -> <sarcasm> waw.. must've taken them a full year to implement that one.. </sarcasm
- gamecenter -> *cough* steam

So, what are the big features for people who don't own iDevices? Any under the hood speed improvements? When will they split iTunes into 3 apps?

Sorry for ranting!

The assumption is that iCloud only matters when you have an iPhone and to a large extend the maximum value comes from having two Apple products. However do not diminish the value of iCloud for even a simple laptop. It basically takes your contacts and calendar data and makes them accessible on any web connected device with a browser. Giving you the ability to not only read and make changes but also to see the location of your mac should it ever be lost or pilfered.

Messages - Facebook chat is ok but Messages sends pictures, video, contacts and other data much easier than the Facebook app and believe it or not some people don't like Facebook.

Reminders, Notes & Notification Center - Sure there are 3rd party apps but when ML ships it will quickly surpass all third party tools because it's built into every new Mac shipping and upgraded Mac. The presence of third party options doesn't invalidate the goodness of these tools in ML.

Airplay - You don't have to own an Apple TV to use Airplay. It works great with wireless speakers.

Share Sheets - Great if you use social media or web services. What seems simple to some is in practice more difficult. Share Sheets needs to encompass different authentication services to be transparent to the end user.

Game Center - isn't a Steam competitor and it doesn't cost anything.


What you're doing is confusing system resources in the OS with available third party tools without realizing that these third party tools sit on top of the the resources Apple provides. The GUI stuff you so quickly replace with other apps often cannot do what they do without Apple making API they write against.

astrorider
Apr 19, 2012, 08:39 PM
On the other hand, I've come to appreciate many of Lion's features that Apple didn't choose to advertise much, like the quicklook previews added to Spotlight and Stacks – so I'm looking forward to similar improvements that were hopefully made in ML.

...hadn't realized you could use quicklook on stacks. Very nice, thanks.

wpotere
Apr 19, 2012, 08:39 PM
Pretty sure it's beta my friend. Developer Preview was the pre beta that was released when it was first announced for testing and this was aimed for developers. The next release was Consumer Preview, which was stated as a beta renamed, and is the most current release build 8250.

The next public build before RTM will be called Release Preview which is basically renamed Release Candidate, and will be released soon.

At this stage how can it not be in beta, they are going to hit RTM in summer/fall time.


Because I can log in and see that it is not Beta.
Windows 8 Server - Beta
Visual Studio 11 - Beta
Windows 8 - Consumer Preview

There is a difference.

This is neither here nor there, we were talking about Mountain Lion and how they have failed to fix Lion.

chrono1081
Apr 19, 2012, 08:40 PM
Does anyone know if the preview builds use a newer OpenGL implementation? That would be a feature I'd love to see.


I agree, I'd love to see ZFS on OS X though.

I thought ZFS was no longer and option after the whole Sun being bought out by Oracle thing...(I'd love it if it did become available).

nuckinfutz
Apr 19, 2012, 08:46 PM
@tkermit

Metadata centric finder - I LIKE this one! I too been wanting to see more use of metadata in the finder or at least a systemwide system of tagging. Sadly Apple either feels like it would be too complex for standard users or they wish to minimize the reliance on the file system to the point where little focus is going to be given in that area.

I actually think we're headed for a new fs seeing as how Lion introduced Core Storage with the vestiges of a volume manager. Sounds ideal as the nearterm future of storage is going to be tiered ...SSD for Boot/applications and HDD for large media (music, video, photos)

I would like to see Resolution Independence finally fleshed out and a move to more vector based UI. I'm quite admittedly beyond my depth here but RI has to be somewhat of a big deal considering mobile devices are going to need to present different UI options depending on the size.

Appreciate the followup. I wasn't calling you out per se but just making an overall statement. I'm curious to what's important to some people because chances are it'll be important to me once I understand the benefits of how they use the technology.

wpotere
Apr 19, 2012, 08:47 PM
I though ZFS was no longer and option after the whole Sun being bought out by Oracle thing...(I'd love it if it did become available).

Pretty much, but like you, I would love to have ZFS as a file system. It is a solid...

throAU
Apr 19, 2012, 08:49 PM
I thought ZFS was no longer and option after the whole Sun being bought out by Oracle thing...(I'd love it if it did become available).

ZFS is available as open source, up to v28 (which includes compression and de-dupe).

Openindiana (what became of opensolaris) and FreeBSD both use it. Both are free operating systems, and the license for ZFS v28 is compatible with what apple would want to do with it.

chrono1081
Apr 19, 2012, 08:50 PM
ZFS is available as open source, up to v28 (which includes compression and de-dupe).

Openindiana (what became of opensolaris) and FreeBSD both use it. Both are free operating systems, and the license for ZFS v28 is compatible with what apple would want to do with it.

Nice! :) Thanks for the info :)

wpotere
Apr 19, 2012, 08:53 PM
ZFS is available as open source, up to v28 (which includes compression and de-dupe).

Openindiana (what became of opensolaris) and FreeBSD both use it. Both are free operating systems, and the license for ZFS v28 is compatible with what apple would want to do with it.


I stand corrected, thanks as well! :cool:

nuckinfutz
Apr 19, 2012, 08:53 PM
Pretty much, but like you, I would love to have ZFS as a file system. It is a solid...

http://tenscomplement.com/

Ex Apple engineers that worked on the ZFS for Mac projected before it was killed.

throAU
Apr 19, 2012, 08:54 PM
That said, the major benefits of ZFS come when you have multiple disks, which most apple machines DONT have :-\

It can use SSD for cache, it can do checksums to ensure your data is not corrupt, but without more than 1 disk (either for a mirror or RAIDZ) it can't fix data errors (unless you tell it to write data to the same disk multiple times in multiple places, which kills performance).

Whilst apple COULD use ZFS, given their focus i'm not sure they'd bother. There is a company offering a version of ZFS for mac right now though, the name of which escapes me...


edit:
link to said company above...

Lunfai
Apr 19, 2012, 08:55 PM
Because I can log in and see that it is not Beta.
Windows 8 Server - Beta
Visual Studio 11 - Beta
Windows 8 - Consumer Preview

There is a difference.

This is neither here nor there, we were talking about Mountain Lion and how they have failed to fix Lion.

I'm not going to argue with you. But it's BETA, it was renamed and there will NEVER BE a build called Windows 8 Beta, becase It was renamed to Consumer Preview, the next build will be called Release Preview, which is renamed Release Candidate.

I dont mean to be rude here, but your just ignoring what I'm trying to say. And it's really annoying, just google and you will see that it was renamed. Even typing it up google "windows 8 beta" will link the the Consumer Preview download from the microsoft website and qoute Wikipedia:
On 29 February 2012, Microsoft released Windows 8 Consumer Preview, the beta version of Windows 8, build 8250.

Like talking to a child that doesn't listen. They renamed it to be different, think about it. Beta is another meaning for a build aimed to be previewed for CONSUMERS.

hafr
Apr 20, 2012, 02:10 AM
I was impressed by Lion's feature set, ML seems relatively boring to me. I mean, seriously, Notes and Reminders is one of the headline features?! Two features that already exist and have merely been moved to their own applications now?
I was pretty annoyed when I noticed you have to have them separate, there is no way (that I know of) to keep notes in Mail and notifications in the calendar. It's like taking a step back, not forward. Since installing ML, I have barely used notifications. And I use them all the time in Lion...

nuckinfutz
Apr 20, 2012, 02:49 AM
I was pretty annoyed when I noticed you have to have them separate, there is no way (that I know of) to keep notes in Mail and notifications in the calendar. It's like taking a step back, not forward. Since installing ML, I have barely used notifications. And I use them all the time in Lion...

Notes in Mail and Notifications in Calendar were somewhat confusing to many. I suppose many people like you preferred it that way but a lot of people wanted them separate but prior Mountain Lion the system used IMAP and CalDAV to sync this info which bolted them to their respective services.

iCloud sets them free though it will be an adjustment for some.

hafr
Apr 20, 2012, 05:19 AM
Notes in Mail and Notifications in Calendar were somewhat confusing to many. I suppose many people like you preferred it that way but a lot of people wanted them separate but prior Mountain Lion the system used IMAP and CalDAV to sync this info which bolted them to their respective services.

iCloud sets them free though it will be an adjustment for some.

I absolutely see the point in having them as separate apps, not everyone uses their mail application or calendar. I just feel like they could've kept the option of integration for those who liked it :)

blow45
Apr 20, 2012, 06:47 AM
To me, Mountain Lion is for Lion what Windows 7 was for Vista. It's just... Better. In a word, ItFeelsSnappier :)

Yeah but the problem is 2007 and older intel macs with windows 7 are more robust, faster and reliable machines (I never thought I d be saying this btw about ms in my wildest dreams and I 've a mac user for more than 10 years) than the ones with lion, and mountain lion won't run on these machines. Windows 7 did manage to reduce the resources it required and be a better os and run on machines that vista had made a dog of. Apple either wants you to run these macs on two os versions back or stick with lion. Shameful.

----------

http://tenscomplement.com/

Ex Apple engineers that worked on the ZFS for Mac projected before it was killed.

Why would apple keep their talented engineers working on the file system when they can hire such great lawyers these days.

wpotere
Apr 20, 2012, 07:07 AM
I'm not going to argue with you.


Ok, then why are you?



I dont mean to be rude here, but your just ignoring what I'm trying to say. And it's really annoying, just google and you will see that it was renamed. Even typing it up google "windows 8 beta" will link the the Consumer Preview download from the microsoft website and qoute Wikipedia:
On 29 February 2012, Microsoft released Windows 8 Consumer Preview, the beta version of Windows 8, build 8250.

Like talking to a child that doesn't listen. They renamed it to be different, think about it. Beta is another meaning for a build aimed to be previewed for CONSUMERS.

So you don't mean to be rude but then you go and do it anyway. Nice...:rolleyes:

Call it what you want, but if you type in Windows 8 Beta you will get driven to the Windows 8 page but nowhere on that page does it say BETA. There is no release date given on the OS yet as it is still getting significant changes, and Beta products don't get significant changes, they only get small bug tweaks just before release. Just because other people are using the word Beta does not mean that it is. I have tested many Beta products for MS and I am a C# developer so my world revolves around it. It will have a Beta cycle to work out the left over bugs, although it will likely be shortened, but for now they are still making lots of changes to how the OS works. It is more of a pre-beta stage than beta.

So, that is my OPINION and I am ENTITLED to it. If you don't like it then move on but your name calling is starting to get irritating.

Bear
Apr 20, 2012, 08:36 AM
...
Call it what you want, but if you type in Windows 8 Beta you will get driven to the Windows 8 page but nowhere on that page does it say BETA. There is no release date given on the OS yet as it is still getting significant changes, and Beta products don't get significant changes, they only get small bug tweaks just before release.
...So that makes it an Alpha Test release?

I was pretty annoyed when I noticed you have to have them separate, there is no way (that I know of) to keep notes in Mail and notifications in the calendar. It's like taking a step back, not forward. Since installing ML, I have barely used notifications. And I use them all the time in Lion...The problem with Notes in Mail was that it tied it to a particular mail account. But my notes have nothing to do with mail. So for some people, tying Notes and Mail together was kind of stupid.

Lunfai
Apr 20, 2012, 10:27 AM
Ok, then why are you?



So you don't mean to be rude but then you go and do it anyway. Nice...:rolleyes:

Call it what you want, but if you type in Windows 8 Beta you will get driven to the Windows 8 page but nowhere on that page does it say BETA. There is no release date given on the OS yet as it is still getting significant changes, and Beta products don't get significant changes, they only get small bug tweaks just before release. Just because other people are using the word Beta does not mean that it is. I have tested many Beta products for MS and I am a C# developer so my world revolves around it. It will have a Beta cycle to work out the left over bugs, although it will likely be shortened, but for now they are still making lots of changes to how the OS works. It is more of a pre-beta stage than beta.

So, that is my OPINION and I am ENTITLED to it. If you don't like it then move on but your name calling is starting to get irritating.

Yes because you can't read. I've stated facts and given a source yet you still have a opinion that is wrong, I stated it nicely before, but you were too ignorant. But I'm just going to leave it.

hafr
Apr 20, 2012, 11:13 AM
-This color is called egg white.
-No, it's called off white!
-Egg white!
-Off white!
-Egg white!

Geez...

Ariii
Apr 20, 2012, 11:25 AM
What would blow you away?

Jobs said "people don't know what they want until you show it to them"

Everyone wants to be blown away but for the life me they can never state what features are missing that would blow them away.

I think it's because these people are expecting a fantasy. It's easy to sit back and dream about features that are Earth Shattering when you don't have to take them into the context of reality.

I think software development mirrors the evolution of life. It's primarily step-by-step iteration and every now and then it take a larger jump forward.

To me Mountain Lion represents the second act of the OS before we precede to that larger jump (which I view as cloud centric personal networks where we all have a surprising amount of mobile and desktop/notebook devices)

I agree almost completely. There's just a couple things I know I want, both Linux features:

*A built-in, Mac equivalent to Wine

*The ability to have both a command-line and GUI login going on at once.

Other than that, I think Mountain Lion is amazing.

wpotere
Apr 20, 2012, 11:26 AM
Yes because you can't read. I've stated facts and given a source yet you still have a opinion that is wrong, I stated it nicely before, but you were too ignorant. But I'm just going to leave it.

LOL, you haven't done a thing except run your mouth and you did not post any source at all, just your own opinion or someone elses. Once again, nice try. My information comes from MSDN.

Once again, I am tired of the name calling. If I continues, I will report it. Learn how to have a debate without putting people down. Lastly, it is clear that you can't "leave it" without having the last word.
:rolleyes:

@Bear - It is like I stated earlier, a pre-beta release. There are still many significant changes being made to it based off of feedback they are getting. In a beta release, this is not the case and only small bugs are fleshed out. Calling it beta is a bad idea as it gives people the impression that this is the final version that will be going live and that is not the case. This is the reason that I have an issue with what Lunfai is posting. The product is still being developed and the release was to get some feedback from the community, nothing more.

MonkeySee....
Apr 20, 2012, 11:30 AM
I only have one apple device, a MBP:

As I see it, the "new" "top" "features" are:

- iCloud -> yeah..don't have an iPhone
- Messages -> i'm sorry everybody is on facebook chat nowadays..
- Reminders + Notes + Notification Center -> have already applications for that
- airPlay -> sorry don't own a appleTV
- twitter + share sheets -> <sarcasm> waw.. must've taken them a full year to implement that one.. </sarcasm
- gamecenter -> *cough* steam

So, what are the big features for people who don't own iDevices? Any under the hood speed improvements? When will they split iTunes into 3 apps?

Sorry for ranting!

I've sent an email to Tim Cook for you to stop their forward strategy of integrating the devices they sell because you only have a mac and use 3rd party apps.

I'm sure he'll tell me to **** off but i'll keep you posted.


:rolleyes:

Tmelon
Apr 20, 2012, 11:50 AM
What the hell is this argument even about? Consumer Preview is just another name for Beta. It is still prerelease software and it even features the "Beta fish" from the Windows 7 Beta.

Developer Preview = Alpha

Consumer Preview = Beta

Release Preview = Release Candidate

It's just simplifying the names.

Lunfai
Apr 20, 2012, 12:28 PM
What the hell is this argument even about? Consumer Preview is just another name for Beta. It is still prerelease software and it even features the "Beta fish" from the Windows 7 Beta.

Developer Preview = Alpha

Consumer Preview = Beta

Release Preview = Release Candidate

It's just simplifying the names.

He thinks consumer preview is not beta. I've decided to just ignore him now on. But he doesn't understand the term of beta that is labeled to software. Beta is not final. Oh well.

Tmelon
Apr 20, 2012, 12:52 PM
He thinks consumer preview is not beta. I've decided to just ignore him now on. But he doesn't understand the term of beta that is labeled to software. Beta is not final. Oh well.

Oh so that's what this is about. Yeah I read somewhere that they just use the "Consumer Preview" name now because the average person will understand it much more than "beta".

wpotere
Apr 20, 2012, 03:32 PM
He thinks consumer preview is not beta. I've decided to just ignore him now on. But he doesn't understand the term of beta that is labeled to software. Beta is not final. Oh well.

As a developer I understand it very well, clearly you don't. I'm done trying to educate you folks. I have been dealing with Windows 8 long before you got your hands on it and know exactly where it is at. As I said, my information comes from MSDN not some other web site and certainly not from you guys.

Enjoy...

Lunfai
Apr 20, 2012, 03:50 PM
Oh so that's what this is about. Yeah I read somewhere that they just use the "Consumer Preview" name now because the average person will understand it much more than "beta".

Yeah, I told him earlier. I love Windows 8, I actually think the ability to mount ISO's without any third party software is hecka useful, and I welcome the metro for tablets, as it's totally different from using from within a desktop and it's actually pretty solid to me. I'm not slating Windows in any way, I love both Apple and Microsoft.

And one last reply, to you wp. I don't care that you have MSDN, they don't exactly give a whole lot more information about Windows 8 then I couldn't get from the internet. You probably used the leaked M3 builds and think your god. Can you check the road map on Windows 8, you'll see that the next planned public build is Release Preview (Release Candidate renamed) and it's going to hit gold in Mid-2012.

How would you explain the BETTA fish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betta) from the start up of Windows 8 Build 250 also? It just can't wrap my head, that you think it's not the beta build...

But this time, I'm just going to leave it. (but give you sources).

Source #1: http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/04/17/windows-8-line-up-simplified-renamed/
Source #2: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/windows-8-why-the-coming-beta-is-likely-to-be-labeled-the-consumer-preview/11716
Source #3: http://gamingumar.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/windows-8-beta-renamed-into-consumer.html
Source #4: http://www.windowsgadget.net/widgets/windows-8-beta-renamed-into-consumer-preview-will-become-available-for-windows-download-news/830
Source #5: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8

wisty
Apr 20, 2012, 05:23 PM
Nothing much.

Apple seems to be moving to a "tick tock" system with their OS. Lion was a "tick", with fundamental technology improvements. ML was a "tock", with apps taking advantage of those improvements.

The problem is, the "tick" is one which enables 3rd party apps to take advantage of iCloud, versions, autosave, etc. There's really no huge advantages in the "tock", unless you use Apple's inbuilt apps a lot. So it's basically just a facelift, unless you are a heavy user of Apple's built-in productivity stuff.

nuckinfutz
Apr 20, 2012, 09:26 PM
One thing that people tend to forget is that Lion was the first OS X that was delivered without new/updated Carbon API. In fact Carbon is dead as far as ongoing development.

So this means that plenty of older Carbon API are going to be deprecated over a few OS X versions and get replaced with new Cocoa frameworks.

Carbon still exists in even Mountain Lion but it's going to slowly wither away. This is good because we should see more rapid advancement of the platform from an architectural standpoint. Apple is no longer juggling a duopoly of API.

It's not sexy but one day your app will do something cool and you won't realize that that feature was enabled because of this underlaying unification.

Blakeasd
Apr 20, 2012, 09:56 PM
While I don't own an i-Device, I'm actually looking forward to Mountain Lion. To me it isn't just the big advertised features, but the small-little tweaks. Look at the "All the Little Things Thread". The biggest advertised feature that I am eager to use is Game Center, Steam is more for the hardcore gamer and the games are very expensive. Game Center as I see it, is geared more towards the casual user. I can't wait to be able to play games with friends on iOS devices because I haven't been able to in the past.

hafr
Apr 21, 2012, 08:32 AM
As a developer I understand it very well, clearly you don't. I'm done trying to educate you folks. I have been dealing with Windows 8 long before you got your hands on it and know exactly where it is at. As I said, my information comes from MSDN not some other web site and certainly not from you guys.

Enjoy...

So it's not you making your own conclusions based on Microsoft not using the actual word "beta" and your personal definition of what constitutes a beta, but an actual statement from Microsoft saying that the CP is not a beta? Could you quote this statement?

laudern
Apr 21, 2012, 06:40 PM
I think Wposter may conveniently "forget" about this thread discussion....But I hope he doesn't....

MattInOz
Apr 23, 2012, 02:19 AM
- the possibility for apps to start in what amounts to a VM, completely separated from the rest of the system (Sandboxing++)

This would be massive for both security and stability, you could then literally reboot apps (or processes) that start playing up.

I think it would further highlight though what is a big missing link in current Sandboxing. The ability for one App to offer up services to another. So I'd add:-

-improve Sandboxing so that re-opens the door to plug-ins and Apps that offer services to other apps. Only allowing data to cross between boxes so it's secure.

If they do that they should also make a system that lets Big Developers leverage the appStore systems to offer a Plug-in market with in the app.

Mal
Apr 23, 2012, 11:39 AM
This would be massive for both security and stability, you could then literally reboot apps (or processes) that start playing up.

I think it would further highlight though what is a big missing link in current Sandboxing. The ability for one App to offer up services to another. So I'd add:-

-improve Sandboxing so that re-opens the door to plug-ins and Apps that offer services to other apps. Only allowing data to cross between boxes so it's secure.

If they do that they should also make a system that lets Big Developers leverage the appStore systems to offer a Plug-in market with in the app.

So a sort of system-wide plugin architecture that any app could take advantage of? Done right, that could be huge. I like that idea a lot, and it would make it very easy for services like Dropbox to gain direct integration into tons of applications, without having to code anything specific for each one.

jW

laudern
Apr 24, 2012, 05:10 PM
As a developer I understand it very well, clearly you don't. I'm done trying to educate you folks. I have been dealing with Windows 8 long before you got your hands on it and know exactly where it is at. As I said, my information comes from MSDN not some other web site and certainly not from you guys.

Enjoy...

As you are a developer can you please explain the following article I found on IGN about the up and coming Release Preview MS are releasing for win8???

new win 8 release preview to be released soon (http://au.ign.com/articles/2012/04/24/windows-8-release-preview-arriving-first-week-of-june)

xgman
Apr 25, 2012, 02:27 PM
Aside from all the cloud and istuff, the underlying guts of the OS seem far less stable and less compatible with some apps to me than Lion, so I'm not sure what Apple is trying to do here. Isn't it supposed to be better somehow at the OS level?

bedifferent
Apr 25, 2012, 04:09 PM
Does anyone know if the preview builds use a newer OpenGL implementation? That would be a feature I'd love to see.



I thought ZFS was no longer and option after the whole Sun being bought out by Oracle thing...(I'd love it if it did become available).

Yeah, beta's of Leopard and Snow Leopard has ZFS code (back when Apple delivered beta's every two weeks and needed to be burned and installed, with ~20 for each OS X development, not 4 "DP's", OS X seems rushed now). So many of us were excited. Oh well.

throAU
Apr 26, 2012, 01:42 AM
Aside from all the cloud and istuff, the underlying guts of the OS seem far less stable and less compatible with some apps to me than Lion, so I'm not sure what Apple is trying to do here. Isn't it supposed to be better somehow at the OS level?

You are aware that it is still a developer preview and not production ready yet?