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atMac
Apr 21, 2012, 07:42 PM
I know there are a lot of threads about how people feel about 10.8 but I was wondering if anyone agreed with mine.

Ever since 10.6 I feel like 10.7 and 10.8 just have done nothing but add more and more things that I have to disable or change before feeling comfortable using the OS.

With 10.5/6 I felt like I could just install it and go, everything felt fine to me, just change my dock size, turn on auto hide, and turn up touchpad sensitivity. I moved to OS X during 10.5 because I was tired of XP and Vista, while never gave me issues, the UI just annoyed me.

With 10.7 I have to add my home folder and Mac root back to the side bar, unhide Library, do dock changes, change the size of the sidebar font, remove items that I never use from the sidebar, set the touchpad for how I like it, disable some touches I find annoying when I do them by accident, and for some reason when I first setup iCloud everything is set to sync by default except for Mail. I find that odd. I also have to disable remembering window states when closing applications, and disable Guest sharing. I'm also constantly looking for "Save As..." in menus.

10.8 for me adds disabling all the notification items, and then running a script to hide/kill the notification center as it annoys me having an icon there that I will never use. First setup doesn't allow a capital letter in the users shortname so I have to make an account, then make a new account after first login that has my name formatted to how I like it, then delete my original account. (I've files a bug for this, but for now I'll leave it as a problem, thought if a person shows me that its really proper UNIX behavior then I'll drop it)

So while I will be the first to agree that the back end changes that are being made are great, but in the UI I feel like they are adding more and more things that for ME are just annoying and should have either easier ways of disabling or easier ways to configure. When I was primarily a Windows user I moved to Mac because after reinstalling XP I had SO many tweaks that I had to do I found it annoying. Sadly I'm finding that I'm starting to get that way about OS X, and Windows 7 has fixed a lot of its problems for me. I feel like it's really bad that I find OS X 10.5/6 and Windows 7 do be much better systems than .7 and .8 when it comes to usability, not implying that any of them are perfect though, but better for me.

Like I said this is my opinion if you agree cool, if not then thats cool to.



blow45
Apr 21, 2012, 08:11 PM
You echo a lot of of my sentiments too, and those of many many people from the os x community, and you expressed some of my problems with .7 and .8 very well. .7 has been a buggy unpolished release introducing new features almost no one who's been using macs for some time has really found them especially helpful, some have found them not really that troubling, and most have the word vista hanging from their mouth when they refer to lion, ass kissers like Gruber and ny times Pogue excluded who got first (in the history of os x) exclusive access to ml some time ago to pre-emp negative user commentary (since no one had the guts from apple to present ml on a keynote - what would they have to present anyway a service pack, going look how great our new os is, we've fixed this bs from lion, that bs from lion, we ripped off growl and android with notifications and now safari sports an address bar that can search too like chrome, forget about zfs we just patched up our legacy file system, and forget about real resolution independence, we 'll do pixel doubling so you ll be buying upcoming retina macs...isn't it great to have notes and reminders apps?).

It's a sad state in the development of os x that you put lion on a 2006 mac and it's a dog, and you put windows 7 on and it flies. It's also sad, as I wrote in another thread, that you get a new mac (a 4gb mini in my case) open up a couple of windows and excel docs, preview and mail, have a couple of 8-9 tab windows from safari and chrome and the os keeps beach balling and paging in an out. Lion has been the first os x release whereby people are being explicitly told by their friends do not install it, even on 2-3 year old macs, and if it hadn't been for icloud (what a bs way btw to force os adoption and obsolete sl by taking away a feature that's a piece of cake to implement on sl too...of course when it came to getting money in their pockets via the app store they managed to bring it to sl too, that's apple for you these days...) people would be downgrading en mass to sl even on new macs.

blueroom
Apr 21, 2012, 08:15 PM
Unless an OS offers something you need/want just stick with the older one.

AppleDApp
Apr 21, 2012, 08:36 PM
Unless an OS offers something you need/want just stick with the older one.

Agreed

seems like lion and Mountain lion is just an awkward transition from what OS's used to be and what they will become.

blow45
Apr 21, 2012, 09:46 PM
Agreed

seems like lion and Mountain lion is just an awkward transition from what OS's used to be and what they will become.

So lion is like adolescent transitorily ugly? I don't know what OSs will become, no one does, not even apple hq have a clear concrete idea, I know what they are supposed to be right now.


Unless an OS offers something you need/want just stick with the older one.
Yeah well that's my maxim too, and you are saying the bleeding obvious, but let me ask you if an OS removes something you need/want (mobileme user from day 1, sufferer of mobileme having shelled out my hard earned cash in the process for idisk not to work and for constant sync problems, (SJ:why shoud you trust us with icloud when we brought you mm), and now apple not offering icloud with sl) and the os maker pretty much blackmails you into upgrading to their new os to keep having what you used to have in the previous os, how exactly are you to react?

Especially so when upon force upgrading you realize they effed up so badly that you can't use windows smb shares and search them, that preview keeps crashing, that mail has memory leaks taking it up to 2gb of mem, that your system is slower, that all sorts of ui modifications cause you to spend 15+ days to find workarounds for them etc, etc... Apple has forced me to use lion (what an ironic name btw, as austere and imposing as vista...very telling) for the sync features I 'd been paying them from day one via mobileme. They didn't even have the courtesy to me as a paying subscriber of their crap product to offer me icloud support in snow leopard, and I had to shell out even more money or lose my synced data by June.

And you are telling me buddy if the new os hasn't got something you need stick with the old one? sssshhhhhh...

ixodes
Apr 21, 2012, 09:57 PM
From my perspective I believe it's too early to judge ML. I have Lion as it came preloaded on my 13" 2011 MBA. For my work Lion is of no benefit.

My other Macs all have 10.6.8, a version that works ideally for me. Usually I always run the latest version of OS X, not migrating my mission critical Macs to Lion seems odd to me. Yet despite how hard I tried to like it, including iCloud, it's not for me at this point.

I'd like to think that after it's public release, and a few revs later, ML will be improved and suitable for my needs. Time will tell.

afin
Apr 21, 2012, 10:15 PM
Yeah well that's my maxim too, and you are saying the bleeding obvious, but let me ask you if an OS removes something you need/want (mobileme user from day 1, sufferer of mobileme having shelled out my hard earned cash in the process for idisk not to work and for constant sync problems, (SJ:why shoud you trust us with icloud when we brought you mm), and now apple not offering icloud with sl) and the os maker pretty much blackmails you into upgrading to their new os to keep having what you used to have in the previous os, how exactly are you to react?

Especially so when upon force upgrading you realize they effed up so badly that you can't use windows smb shares and search them, that preview keeps crashing, that mail has memory leaks taking it up to 2gb of mem, that your system is slower, that all sorts of ui modifications cause you to spend 15+ days to find workarounds for them etc, etc... Apple has forced me to use lion (what an ironic name btw, as austere and imposing as vista...very telling) for the sync features I 'd been paying them from day one via mobileme. They didn't even have the courtesy to me as a paying subscriber of their crap product to offer me icloud support in snow leopard, and I had to shell out even more money or lose my synced data by June.

And you are telling me buddy if the new os hasn't got something you need stick with the old one? sssshhhhhh...

I agree that Apple really placed some of their older user base in a jam in choosing not offer things like iCloud support for snow leopard. Their attitude has always been that anyone who is not on board gets left behind.

In view of Apple's current focuses, you may have to reassess and figure out if the path they are leading you to is what's right for you or if another competitor better meet your needs.

tywebb13
Apr 21, 2012, 10:16 PM
The only thing about Lion that annoyed me was the dialogue box that appears every time you want to reboot or shut down. I was not alone in this and soon there were things you can get to circumvent this which also work in Mountain Lion. They are CleanShutDownS and CleanRebootS available at

http://www.gizmoblurb.com/2011/07/cleanshutdown-fighting-lions-dictatorship/

I was keen to get the Developer Previews of Mountain Lion because they have wireless airplay. I never bothered with developer previews before but this has been really good.

The only problem I had with Mountain Lion was that initially Parallels wouldn't work with it, but that has since been fixed with an update for Parallels.

blow45
Apr 21, 2012, 10:40 PM
I agree that Apple really placed some of their older user base in a jam in choosing not offer things like iCloud support for snow leopard. Their attitude has always been that anyone who is not on board gets left behind.

In view of Apple's current focuses, you may have to reassess and figure out if the path they are leading you to is what's right for you or if another competitor better meet your needs.

Agreed. I 've really liked the platform, I wish they hadn't become so arrogant and so impervious to their users demands now that they've grown this large. Someone said something really astute in another thread a few days ago about Phil Schiller saying instagram jumped the shark when they went to android too, "one could say apple jumped they shark when they went mobile". I am reassessing my options...

KingJosh
Apr 22, 2012, 02:51 AM
I agree but I will still use ML because I only have to do those things once so they are not a deal breaker. Some things a nice and some things aren't. Just spend a couple of seconds disabling the nasties and live with the nice ones. All good :)

scarred
Apr 22, 2012, 09:41 AM
I'm sorry, but I have to call it... This thread sounds like it's from a stereotypical "grumpy old man". "back in my day, they made fridges that would last my life time". Ok grampa, show me your fridge that you first bought?

Fact is, there are a lot of very happy iPad and iPhone users who do not have a Mac. A tonne of those users are looking at Macbook Airs and Pros. It is in Apple's best interest to make the gap between the two platforms smaller, while still making sure OS X works well on a desktop/laptop. While plans change, it is pretty obvious OS X and iOS are on a collision course sometime in the future.

I should know, I'm such a convert. iPad 1 was my gateway drug to Apple products. Don't scare us away. I'm not here to take away your bash shell and automator. I use and love them too. :P

chrono1081
Apr 22, 2012, 09:52 AM
I mean no offense to the OP but these are trivial things.

Every OS release ever has moved things around a bit. I've used so many operating systems that I can sit in front of anything out there and use it without issue. That is a great skill to have nowadays.

Remember, there is always worse out there. Wait until Windows 8 hits and see what happens with their user base 0_0.

----------

Agreed. I 've really liked the platform, I wish they hadn't become so arrogant and so impervious to their users demands now that they've grown this large. Someone said something really astute in another thread a few days ago about Phil Schiller saying instagram jumped the shark when they went to android too, "one could say apple jumped they shark when they went mobile". I am reassessing my options...

They haven't though, most users only come to Macrumors to complain instead of going to http://www.apple.com/feedback where concerns belong.

I go there to ask about updated OpenGL every month or so. Its the official channel and any request not made through the official channel most likely won't be heard.

McKs
Apr 22, 2012, 09:59 AM
I'm sorry, but I have to call it... This thread sounds like it's from a stereotypical "grumpy old man". "back in my day, they made fridges that would last my life time". Ok grampa, show me your fridge that you first bought?

Fact is, there are a lot of very happy iPad and iPhone users who do not have a Mac. A tonne of those users are looking at Macbook Airs and Pros. It is in Apple's best interest to make the gap between the two platforms smaller, while still making sure OS X works well on a desktop/laptop. While plans change, it is pretty obvious OS X and iOS are on a collision course sometime in the future.

I should know, I'm such a convert. iPad 1 was my gateway drug to Apple products. Don't scare us away. I'm not here to take away your bash shell and automator. I use and love them too. :P

[grumpy old man impression]

bah, you can have my automator and bash shell, I just want my "save as..." back

[/grumpy old man impression]

hafr
Apr 22, 2012, 10:04 AM
I know there are a lot of threads about how people feel about 10.8 but I was wondering if anyone agreed with mine.

Ever since 10.6 I feel like 10.7 and 10.8 just have done nothing but add more and more things that I have to disable or change before feeling comfortable using the OS.

With 10.5/6 I felt like I could just install it and go, everything felt fine to me, just change my dock size, turn on auto hide, and turn up touchpad sensitivity. I moved to OS X during 10.5 because I was tired of XP and Vista, while never gave me issues, the UI just annoyed me.

With 10.7 I have to add my home folder and Mac root back to the side bar, unhide Library, do dock changes, change the size of the sidebar font, remove items that I never use from the sidebar, set the touchpad for how I like it, disable some touches I find annoying when I do them by accident, and for some reason when I first setup iCloud everything is set to sync by default except for Mail. I find that odd. I also have to disable remembering window states when closing applications, and disable Guest sharing. I'm also constantly looking for "Save As..." in menus.

10.8 for me adds disabling all the notification items, and then running a script to hide/kill the notification center as it annoys me having an icon there that I will never use. First setup doesn't allow a capital letter in the users shortname so I have to make an account, then make a new account after first login that has my name formatted to how I like it, then delete my original account. (I've files a bug for this, but for now I'll leave it as a problem, thought if a person shows me that its really proper UNIX behavior then I'll drop it)

So while I will be the first to agree that the back end changes that are being made are great, but in the UI I feel like they are adding more and more things that for ME are just annoying and should have either easier ways of disabling or easier ways to configure. When I was primarily a Windows user I moved to Mac because after reinstalling XP I had SO many tweaks that I had to do I found it annoying. Sadly I'm finding that I'm starting to get that way about OS X, and Windows 7 has fixed a lot of its problems for me. I feel like it's really bad that I find OS X 10.5/6 and Windows 7 do be much better systems than .7 and .8 when it comes to usability, not implying that any of them are perfect though, but better for me.

Like I said this is my opinion if you agree cool, if not then thats cool to.

Since you seem to dislike ML so much, how come you're using the DP instead of just reverting to 10.6 that you like? I mean, to each his own, I just don't see the point in using an OS you don't like :)

blow45
Apr 22, 2012, 12:12 PM
I've left my feedback at apple don't worry. And what the op says is not trivial, we are talking about workflow in an os, it's not like we are discussing testicular cancer (knock on wood) or famine in Africa, so it's by definition going to be far less important than most things, it's not as if by now os's break and crush all the time, it's their minor points that make them either pretty good as almost all are, or very good, and some of these points can make them damn annoying at time as with lion.

Since you seem to dislike ML so much, how come you're using the DP instead of just reverting to 10.6 that you like? I mean, to each his own, I just don't see the point in using an OS you don't like :)

I just don't see the point in replies such as this, or the grumpy old man one, that are either/or, you don't have to either like or not like the os, you might like a lot of things about it but you may also find that apple has introduced a lot of poorly thought out ways to do things and bugs, as well as unwarranted complexity and bugs, and still like the os.

hafr
Apr 22, 2012, 12:38 PM
I just don't see the point in replies such as this, or the grumpy old man one, that are either/or, you don't have to either like or not like the os, you might like a lot of things about it but you may also find that apple has introduced a lot of poorly thought out ways to do things and bugs, as well as unwarranted complexity and bugs, and still like the os.

It wasn't as much a reply as it was a question. I interpreted your post as "ML is the worstest, 10.6 is the bestest", not as "I like it, except for these things" as you now seem to say. So I guess my question was answered :)

neoark
Apr 22, 2012, 01:31 PM
Yeh its too bloated they should be instead working on improving graphics (OpenGL).

atMac
Apr 22, 2012, 02:32 PM
Since you seem to dislike ML so much, how come you're using the DP instead of just reverting to 10.6 that you like? I mean, to each his own, I just don't see the point in using an OS you don't like :)

Because I have a job, and that job requires that I do testing in 10.8. I also migrated my iCloud from MobileMe before I realized that I can't use iCloud on 10.6. So I am stuck on 10.7.

Sdreed91
Apr 22, 2012, 02:35 PM
I'm sorry, but I have to call it... This thread sounds like it's from a stereotypical "grumpy old man". "back in my day, they made fridges that would last my life time". Ok grampa, show me your fridge that you first bought?

Fact is, there are a lot of very happy iPad and iPhone users who do not have a Mac. A tonne of those users are looking at Macbook Airs and Pros. It is in Apple's best interest to make the gap between the two platforms smaller, while still making sure OS X works well on a desktop/laptop. While plans change, it is pretty obvious OS X and iOS are on a collision course sometime in the future.

I should know, I'm such a convert. iPad 1 was my gateway drug to Apple products. Don't scare us away. I'm not here to take away your bash shell and automator. I use and love them too. :P

Can't agree more.

Macrumors while helpful sometimes; seems more like a complaint box. Except the complaint box is never checked by the Apple the group that is being complained towards.

The iPad is Apples money maker. Since Apples money maker is a hit it makes sense for the company that has a goal to maximize profit to close the gap between OS X and iOS and bring in more customers. However, it just so happens that these customers that are being lured in are more accustomed to iOS. So by making OS X similar to iOS it allows Apple to draw in more customers and make more money, which is the company's ultimate goal.

While frustrating technology, is becoming a boat that if you do not jump on board you are left behind with features that are becoming less relevant, and less useful.

blow45
Apr 22, 2012, 05:30 PM
@shreed it's easy to overimplify esp. so if in forums where everyone is a dime a dozen pundit, but the issues here are not about os x becoming like ios, it's about os x not working well.

And can you exactly tell us how making os x look like ios will draw in more customers? That's a very plausible business argument, that I am sure some at apple share too as a strategy. You know how many businesses have been effed because they followed a plausible business plan that ended up screwing them royally? The history of business is littered simple, obvious propositions...simple obvious that is, and wrong. The apple tv interface was made to look like ios and it was universally panned. In any case, what does this have to do with the fact that a $2 ipad app can access my smb shares in seconds, and the rubbish implementation of the new smb 1.0 protocol by apple takes a 20-30 seconds every time you go into a new folder? The world's most advanced os has come to the point where basic network access functionality is so buggy and compromised, and you are telling us this has anything to do with os x becoming like ios? And don't worry apple read the forums as much as the next guy, they are not some kinda super human extra terrestrial entities, that don't kick back on the sofa with a drink or a cuppa and browse the forums. I am sure some of them are doing it compulsively too.

Because I have a job, and that job requires that I do testing in 10.8. I also migrated my iCloud from MobileMe before I realized that I can't use iCloud on 10.6. So I am stuck on 10.7.

that was one **** way to treat their loyal customers first have them migrate to icloud then not offer icloud in their macs unless the coughed up the money to buy lion... The amount of confidence they have in lion btw as to how good a product they delivered can be seen by the fact that although I am sure they were considering offering it with sl, and the users demanded it, they were **** scared that if they do people would en mass switch back to snow leopard...

Sdreed91
Apr 22, 2012, 09:57 PM
"[QUOTE=blow45;14760042]@shreed it's easy to overimplify esp. so if in forums where everyone is a dime a dozen pundit, but the issues here are not about os x becoming like ios, it's about os x not working well.

And can you exactly tell us how making os x look like ios will draw in more customers? That's a very plausible business argument, that I am sure some at apple share too as a strategy. You know how many businesses have been effed because they followed a plausible business plan that ended up screwing them royally? The history of business is littered simple, obvious propositions...simple obvious that is, and wrong. The apple tv interface was made to look like ios and it was universally panned. In any case, what does this have to do with the fact that a $2 ipad app can access my smb shares in seconds, and the rubbish implementation of the new smb 1.0 protocol by apple takes a 20-30 seconds every time you go into a new folder? The world's most advanced os has come to the point where basic network access functionality is so buggy and compromised, and you are telling us this has anything to do with os x becoming like ios? And don't worry apple read the forums as much as the next guy, they are not some kinda super human extra terrestrial entities, that don't kick back on the sofa with a drink or a cuppa and browse the forums. I am sure some of them are doing it compulsively too."


I do not believe that any important member of the Apple team reads forums looking for ideas on where to direct the next product. Steve Jobs quoted Henry Ford as saying people don't know what they want until you show them.

Similarities between both OS's would help bridge a gap between the two making customers that favor the iPad possibly more willing to buy a Mac. Customers being drawn by iOS devices is usually referred to as the "Halo effect"

I also never said that buggy behavior is related to the likeness that iOS and OS X share.

blow45
Apr 23, 2012, 01:40 PM
Sreed, in THEORY they would help bridge the gap, but in practice no one cares if their mac has a launchpad, as it takes about 3 mins to learn: apps in the applications folder, drag them to dock to use them or cmd space to find any app via typing. The halo effect of owning a coffee maker from braun means that I might think of buying a fridge from them. It doesn't mean that I expect the fridge to be similar to the coffee maker. Nor does it mean that if one issues a rubbish ui interface such as the one on apple tv based on ios elements it's going to be suddenly a success because it looks like ios when for its purpose it's not doing its job well.

They would have more success by enabling os x to access smb networks well and working on it's backbone so a couple of safari and and chrome windows with excel and word, don't bring it to its knees with 4gbs of mem. They would also have more success if finally they enabled some dpi font settings so new mac users won't go, as a lot of them do, hey why can't I change to fonts of the safari bar, or history items, or the menu, or (fill in other os font) to a readable level. They are being very ignorant if they think that reopening preview with all the documents you had open brings some inherent either marketing or functionality value because it's so in ios. From all the time using macs, I 've not heard anyone, not a single soul, complain that reopening preview didn't pop back up whatever they were using. If people wanted their preview documents back, they simply minimized them, or just went to open recent and with 3-4 clicks they had what they wanted back.

They want to use ios elements, fine by me, but they have to work well on os x too, which most of them at the moment simply don't.

And don't worry both important and not so important members of apple read forums, because they are not ET, they are human, and they can't help it, I am sure some of them are reading them compulsively too. Anyone who says apple doesn't read forums has some conception of apple as being populated by ET beings ready to live in the new spaceship campus and be off to Mars soon.

Sdreed91
Apr 23, 2012, 03:15 PM
Sreed, in THEORY they would help bridge the gap, but in practice no one cares if their mac has a launchpad, as it takes about 3 mins to learn: apps in the applications folder, drag them to dock to use them or cmd space to find any app via typing. The halo effect of owning a coffee maker from braun means that I might think of buying a fridge from them. It doesn't mean that I expect the fridge to be similar to the coffee maker. Nor does it mean that if one issues a rubbish ui interface such as the one on apple tv based on ios elements it's going to be suddenly a success because it looks like ios when for its purpose it's not doing its job well.

They would have more success by enabling os x to access smb networks well and working on it's backbone so a couple of safari and and chrome windows with excel and word, don't bring it to its knees with 4gbs of mem. They would also have more success if finally they enabled some dpi font settings so new mac users won't go, as a lot of them do, hey why can't I change to fonts of the safari bar, or history items, or the menu, or (fill in other os font) to a readable level. They are being very ignorant if they think that reopening preview with all the documents you had open brings some inherent either marketing or functionality value because it's so in ios. From all the time using macs, I 've not heard anyone, not a single soul, complain that reopening preview didn't pop back up whatever they were using. If people wanted their preview documents back, they simply minimized them, or just went to open recent and with 3-4 clicks they had what they wanted back.

They want to use ios elements, fine by me, but they have to work well on os x too, which most of them at the moment simply don't.

And don't worry both important and not so important members of apple read forums, because they are not ET, they are human, and they can't help it, I am sure some of them are reading them compulsively too. Anyone who says apple doesn't read forums has some conception of apple as being populated by ET beings ready to live in the new spaceship campus and be off to Mars soon.

Your points about the coffee are true. But I also believe that the bridging of the gap provides a "comfort zone". This comfort zone might allow people that have been Windows users for a long time a more comforting thought of transition, with things they are more familiar with.

I also agree under the hood improvements would be nice. Some iOS things do not look right on OS X I will agree with that. Some do and work well for me.

I have heard stories of people not liking what opens up when resuming an app.

I do not think that Apple is run by ETs but I am not entirely convinced someone on the executive level sits down to search forums that is what I had meant.

By the way I also appreciate the civility of our debate.

blow45
Apr 23, 2012, 03:54 PM
I appreciate the civility of our debate as well.

I think development for os x lion did not have sufficient resources as the focus was mostly on ios. I also think SJ didn't have the time and stamina to overview os x and its direction and it was quickly run by him. Certainly in terms of the final execution and polishing it's self evident that the perfectionism that went in os x all these years is not there anymore. Bertrand Serlet leaving was also very telling.

All in all os x lion seems to lack vision, someone from marketing might have thought that the idea of cross pollinating it with ios would sound good and also help sales with the affinity of users for ios (I agree this can help) and they took that to the extreme, and didn't implement it well at all as well. At the end of the day they had to say lion is about something, so lion became about integrating elements from ios. Besides the fact that this clearly shows where real development happens (ios) and where development only proceeds mostly by borrowing from the other os (os x), it also shows a lack of vision for os x.

The problem with all this is that long standing requirements and requests to bring os x to a new level of greatness, such as resolution independence, open cl advancements, a new file system such as zfs etc. where swept under the carpet with gimmicks from ios and half baked loans that sometimes work and are not so bad, but most of the time they don't. And no one, even the few people who really like lion, are so excited about them. I 've not read anyone here saying, oh look how great this or that lion feature is, even the people staunchly defending lion and claiming it's not apple's vista.

No one really gives a damn at the end of the day if windows re-open on start up, or if apps keep their state and the problematic auto freeze of apps. But these were the main selling points of lion, and the reason why we had to put up with an arguably slower system, a definitely more buggy system (in all the macs I 've used, mail didn't have memory leaks, preview did not crash, and smb shares worked for example, to name just the bugs I have witnessed), and a bunch of interface changes that are questionable at best.

And you know what, besides a few much needed under the hood security enhancements, lion didn't bring anything to excite us, just a couple of things to say, oh great idea apple, that was needed, or we didn't expect this but look at how much helpful it's been in our workflow. All the features I find really good about os x, are features up until leopard and snow leopard. All the features I find problematic or poorly implemented are features of lion.

I was a mm subscriber from day one and now I switched to dropbox because idisk was broken and I have my peace of mind. Where's an integrated file syncing system in lion? Icloud is not bad for being free, but it's what everyone these days is offering pretty much, it's a modified and less capable in some respects MobileMe. If lion is about the cloud, and mountain lion, I don't see apple bringing anything really new to the table than what others offer at the moment mostly. They couldn't buy dropbox, so they pretty much deserted proper file syncing across macs. Where's music streaming in itunes? Hell they sell ebooks, and they don't even have integrated ebook preview or quick view, let alone a viewer in lion. Itunes needs some overhaul to make it more intuitive, because let's face it, it's a beast for non techies to run. That still hasn't taken place.

So, you can see how I can hardly be excited by preview keeping state and or auto shutdown of apps, and much less about seriously bad ideas such as duplicate and the compulsive greying out of every ui interface. Notes, growl/android type notification, reminders, and twitter don't only leave me stone cold, I think they are a mockery as well to be promoted as new os material for ml.

Sdreed91
Apr 23, 2012, 04:30 PM
I appreciate the civility of our debate as well.

I think development for os x lion did not have sufficient resources as the focus was mostly on ios. I also think SJ didn't have the time and stamina to overview os x and its direction and it was quickly run by him. Certainly in terms of the final execution and polishing it's self evident that the perfectionism that went in os x all these years is not there anymore. Bertrand Serlet leaving was also very telling.

All in all os x lion seems to lack vision, someone from marketing might have thought that the idea of cross pollinating it with ios would sound good and also help sales with the affinity of users for ios (I agree this can help) and they took that to the extreme, and didn't implement it well at all as well. At the end of the day they had to say lion is about something, so lion became about integrating elements from ios. Besides the fact that this clearly shows where real development happens (ios) and where development only proceeds mostly by borrowing from the other os (os x), it also shows a lack of vision for os x.

The problem with all this is that long standing requirements and requests to bring os x to a new level of greatness, such as resolution independence, open cl advancements, a new file system such as zfs etc. where swept under the carpet with gimmicks from ios and half baked loans that sometimes work and are not so bad, but most of the time they don't. And no one, even the few people who really like lion, are so excited about them. I 've not read anyone here saying, oh look how great this or that lion feature is, even the people staunchly defending lion and claiming it's not apple's vista.

No one really gives a damn at the end of the day if windows re-open on start up, or if apps keep their state and the problematic auto freeze of apps. But these were the main selling points of lion, and the reason why we had to put up with an arguably slower system, a definitely more buggy system (in all the macs I 've used, mail didn't have memory leaks, preview did not crash, and smb shares worked for example, to name just the bugs I have witnessed), and a bunch of interface changes that are questionable at best.

And you know what, besides a few much needed under the hood security enhancements, lion didn't bring anything to excite us, just a couple of things to say, oh great idea apple, that was needed, or we didn't expect this but look at how much helpful it's been in our workflow. All the features I find really good about os x, are features up until leopard and snow leopard. All the features I find problematic or poorly implemented are features of lion.

I was a mm subscriber from day one and now I switched to dropbox because idisk was broken and I have my peace of mind. Where's an integrated file syncing system in lion? Icloud is not bad for being free, but it's what everyone these days is offering pretty much, it's a modified and less capable in some respects MobileMe. If lion is about the cloud, and mountain lion, I don't see apple bringing anything really new to the table than what others offer at the moment mostly. They couldn't buy dropbox, so they pretty much deserted proper file syncing across macs. Where's music streaming in itunes? Hell they sell ebooks, and they don't even have integrated ebook preview or quick view, let alone a viewer in lion. Itunes needs some overhaul to make it more intuitive, because let's face it, it's a beast for non techies to run. That still hasn't taken place.

So, you can see how I can hardly be excited by preview keeping state and or auto shutdown of apps, and much less about seriously bad ideas such as duplicate and the compulsive greying out of every ui interface. Notes, growl/android type notification, reminders, and twitter don't only leave me stone cold, I think they are a mockery as well to be promoted as new os material for ml.

I do agree that iCloud is good at what it does for being a free service. However, I would love better file syncing between my Mac and my iOS devices. I also feel that iCloud could be a great way for Apple to revolutionize OS X. I feel though that Apple is choosing not to take full advantage of the cloud capabilities they have at hand. iCloud could provide a means of streaming not temporarily loading the song onto your device as iTunes match does now. There is so much to offer from iCloud alone that could put some spring and excitement back into OS X. For example imagine having access to your whole system that is at your house while you are at work (I do not mean the remote viewing app Apple offers) I am talking all settings screen savers etc. being loaded onto the computer you are on. The system itself could be stored in the cloud by backups as iOS devices are and then loaded temporarily fully loaded onto the computer at work. Imagine a blanket covering the sheets so to speak. The blanket being your home system and the sheets being the computer that is covered by your system. Not the greatest analogy but I think my point may have come across. Apple is just not using their clouds potential to its full extent. It is being focused on delivering media instead of work loads. I would pay to have access to a service like what I described.

Yes Apple I believe is setting itself up now with yearly release cycles so that they may just throw in a few features at a quicker pace instead of full upgrades. Some things implemented are just gimmicky however, and poorly executed.

I also agree that no one was there to crack the whip on Lion as SJ would have if he had been in better health.

blow45
Apr 23, 2012, 04:53 PM
they even stopped syncing keychains (that was a great feature of mm) and now you have three macs to manage passwords at separately. Once with mm, you set one wifi pass say on one mac, boom, you opened the other one it was there in keychain to be used... What was so hard code wise to implement with keychain syncing, it was the only feature of mm that worked seamlessly (albeit it didn't work as securely as it should have)....

I like your idea btw, it's very creative, something I wouldn't say about apple these days.

AppleDApp
Apr 23, 2012, 05:06 PM
I do agree that iCloud is good at what it does for being a free service. However, I would love better file syncing between my Mac and my iOS devices. I also feel that iCloud could be a great way for Apple to revolutionize OS X. I feel though that Apple is choosing not to take full advantage of the cloud capabilities they have at hand. iCloud could provide a means of streaming not temporarily loading the song onto your device as iTunes match does now. There is so much to offer from iCloud alone that could put some spring and excitement back into OS X. For example imagine having access to your whole system that is at your house while you are at work (I do not mean the remote viewing app Apple offers) I am talking all settings screen savers etc. being loaded onto the computer you are on. The system itself could be stored in the cloud by backups as iOS devices are and then loaded temporarily fully loaded onto the computer at work. Imagine a blanket covering the sheets so to speak. The blanket being your home system and the sheets being the computer that is covered by your system. Not the greatest analogy but I think my point may have come across. Apple is just not using their clouds potential to its full extent. It is being focused on delivering media instead of work loads. I would pay to have access to a service like what I described.

Yes Apple I believe is setting itself up now with yearly release cycles so that they may just throw in a few features at a quicker pace instead of full upgrades. Some things implemented are just gimmicky however, and poorly executed.

I also agree that no one was there to crack the whip on Lion as SJ would have if he had been in better health.

I thought I would chime in on a few points. File syncing as you said is really lacking between iOS and macs. I use an iPad for taking notes in class, I'd really like to get back home and get to formatting then on my mac like dropbox does. I think iCloud is Apple's long term solution. Over time they will incorporate many new features and OS X might even become cloud centered. Think of a mac that is always connected to the internet with wifi, 4g or whatever the next big connectivity technology is. That mac would have a small SSD for apps say 128gb and all documents and media would be stored in the cloud. This is not for tomorrow but this could be a new big market for Apple. As for having access to your home system at work or elsewhere, Macs have the back to my mac feature, which seems to do what you describe. I haven't had a chance to use it.

Sdreed91
Apr 23, 2012, 06:30 PM
they even stopped syncing keychains (that was a great feature of mm) and now you have three macs to manage passwords at separately. Once with mm, you set one wifi pass say on one mac, boom, you opened the other one it was there in keychain to be used... What was so hard code wise to implement with keychain syncing, it was the only feature of mm that worked seamlessly (albeit it didn't work as securely as it should have)....

I like your idea btw, it's very creative, something I wouldn't say about apple these days.

Thank you. I feel like the cloud really offers a greater future for computing and Apple is holding out on taking full advantage of it.

----------

I thought I would chime in on a few points. File syncing as you said is really lacking between iOS and macs. I use an iPad for taking notes in class, I'd really like to get back home and get to formatting then on my mac like dropbox does. I think iCloud is Apple's long term solution. Over time they will incorporate many new features and OS X might even become cloud centered. Think of a mac that is always connected to the internet with wifi, 4g or whatever the next big connectivity technology is. That mac would have a small SSD for apps say 128gb and all documents and media would be stored in the cloud. This is not for tomorrow but this could be a new big market for Apple. As for having access to your home system at work or elsewhere, Macs have the back to my mac feature, which seems to do what you describe. I haven't had a chance to use it.

Yes syncing is lacking. I too strongly believe that the cloud is the next big thing for the tech industry. The back to mac app is not exactly what I meant. I would love to see (and I would pay for this service) a way to be able to have a snapshot of my system temporarily loaded into the cloud and then onto another computer and pick back up right where I left off and the snapshot could be moved back to the cloud and when you get back to your computer pick back up where you left off however you would be running your full system not a snapshot.

AppleDApp
Apr 23, 2012, 06:33 PM
Thank you. I feel like the cloud really offers a greater future for computing and Apple is holding out on taking full advantage of it.

----------



Yes syncing is lacking. I too strongly believe that the cloud is the next big thing for the tech industry. The back to mac app is not exactly what I meant. I would love to see (and I would pay for this service) a way to be able to have a snapshot of my system temporarily loaded into the cloud and then onto another computer and pick back up right where I left off and the snapshot could be moved back to the cloud and when you get back to your computer pick back up where you left off however you would be running your full system not a snapshot.

I imagine that would take a ridiculous amount of storage space and time to download.

Sdreed91
Apr 23, 2012, 08:21 PM
I imagine that would take a ridiculous amount of storage space and time to download.

True but that could be an optional service that users could opt in for and pay for. I am not a software engineer I am an enthusiast that sees the potential of what the cloud could offer and Apple has the resources to make that work. So as far as the really technical stuff I couldn't really get into the details but something like that could be great and revolutionary.

blow45
Apr 23, 2012, 08:48 PM
we are a long from there boys, they better bring back keychain sync for the time being so at least we can keep our passwords in order, and if not dropbox that they couldn't (and god forbid not another broken idisk) buy some proper file sync options...

Sdreed91
Apr 23, 2012, 09:01 PM
we are a long from there boys, they better bring back keychain sync for the time being so at least we can keep our passwords in order, and if not dropbox that they couldn't (and god forbid not another broken idisk) buy some proper file sync options...

True. But the future is always a day away.

nuckinfutz
Apr 24, 2012, 02:00 AM
The problem with endlessly complaining is that you miss out on the "behind the scenes" stuff.

iCloud is far beyond MobileMe in architecture and scope. Despite the lamentations of iOS having an undue influence on the Mac I disagree. The cross pollination between the two has yielded good fruit.

Lion has some UI gaffes but those are surface issues that should be easy to correct. I had the sense after 10.7.2 was released that Lion was already in maintenance mode. With the announcement of Mountain Lion my presumptions were confirmed. Basically Apple punted...they realized that the OS they wanted to deliver with iCloud done right wasn't going to be Lion.

I'm ok with that. With sync technology you really have to have product in the field to test it and then iterate.

I read one post that I thought made sense. Developers have been up in arms about losing the ability to write to some directories. Apple has hidden the Library from users as well. The blog post I read postulated that Apple's actions seem to point towards the ability to put much of your OS into the Cloud. If Apple breaks the assumption from the developer that they are writing to the user library on the HDD then it makes the system far more portable.

If Apple didn't care about OS X they wouldn't have finally developed an in-house Volume Manager (http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7.ars/13) for storage.

With iCloud we're not seeing everything it can do already. Collaboration is likely coming, smarter routing (LAN sync (http://appadvice.com/appnn/2011/06/good-news-icloud-lan-syncing)) is there.

I'm pretty sure we're just seeing the beginning. The UI stuff will be fixed in a couple of short revisions we'll see some pretty dramatic changes to how we use our computers.

throAU
Apr 24, 2012, 03:01 AM
+1 to the dude above.

Lion was a major upgrade in behind the scenes stuff.

icloud, and more importantly the security model.

Mountain Lion takes it a step further.


If you don't run multiple devices and sync with icloud and don't care about security there's little new in Lion. If you do, there's HEAPS new.

Gatekeeper (signed code), sandboxing (preventing apps do stuff outside of their playpen) and iCloud are good things.

Most people simply don't understand the implications or care about it.

LostSoul80
Apr 24, 2012, 03:13 AM
Tl;dr :eek:

afin
Apr 24, 2012, 03:35 AM
The problem with endlessly complaining is that you miss out on the "behind the scenes" stuff.

iCloud is far beyond MobileMe in architecture and scope. Despite the lamentations of iOS having an undue influence on the Mac I disagree. The cross pollination between the two has yielded good fruit.

Lion has some UI gaffes but those are surface issues that should be easy to correct. I had the sense after 10.7.2 was released that Lion was already in maintenance mode. With the announcement of Mountain Lion my presumptions were confirmed. Basically Apple punted...they realized that the OS they wanted to deliver with iCloud done right wasn't going to be Lion.

I'm ok with that. With sync technology you really have to have product in the field to test it and then iterate.

I read one post that I thought made sense. Developers have been up in arms about losing the ability to write to some directories. Apple has hidden the Library from users as well. The blog post I read postulated that Apple's actions seem to point towards the ability to put much of your OS into the Cloud. If Apple breaks the assumption from the developer that they are writing to the user library on the HDD then it makes the system far more portable.

If Apple didn't care about OS X they wouldn't have finally developed an in-house Volume Manager (http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7.ars/13) for storage.

With iCloud we're not seeing everything it can do already. Collaboration is likely coming, smarter routing (LAN sync (http://appadvice.com/appnn/2011/06/good-news-icloud-lan-syncing)) is there.

I'm pretty sure we're just seeing the beginning. The UI stuff will be fixed in a couple of short revisions we'll see some pretty dramatic changes to how we use our computers.

The glass is but half full and still being filled. I like your outlook.

Confuzzzed
Apr 24, 2012, 04:07 AM
This...

Fact is, there are a lot of very happy iPad and iPhone users who do not have a Mac...It is in Apple's best interest to make the gap between the two platforms smaller, while still making sure OS X works well on a desktop/laptop.

PS. Are we still talking about a beta version of ML or have I missed the public release? Surely some of the issues will be ironed out before the full release in August

Mattie Num Nums
Apr 24, 2012, 09:50 AM
Unless an OS offers something you need/want just stick with the older one.

Apple is Bleeding Edge unfortunately.

baryon
Apr 24, 2012, 02:32 PM
I agree, I find that I have to disable everything I can that constitutes a "new feature" in Lion. I think that everything I do is to make Lion look more like Leopard, but it's not entirely possible (Spaces, Exposé, etc…) so it's always going to be a more annoying OS to me. I don't want to go backward and I don't mind so much as to downgrade, but it's just a bit stupid that they're going away from the Apple-like elegant simplicity of Leopard and going towards a feature-heavy complicated OS with lots of things that don't make sense if you try to work out why it's the way it is.

For example, the loss of "Save As" is annoying because most apps still use Save As, so it adds inconsistency. I have to know two different file saving methods instead of one. I don't really care which one is better, it's more a matter of which one I'm used to. And I prefer getting used to one instead of two.

mac-collector
Apr 26, 2012, 07:16 AM
.... if not then thats cool to.

too*

james948
Apr 26, 2012, 08:21 PM
Surely it's possible for someone to write a hack that turns mission control into spaces? I've never understood why this hasn't been done.

Meanwhile; yes, we're getting there. What will happen in the not so distant future is the computer will sense your proximity, you type in a password and your data is instantly downloaded to the computer; we're not too far away; there's not that much data now anyway; this is why I could downsize to a 256GB hard drive on a Macbook Air. I deleted my entire itunes library and now just stream it from Match when I want to; home movies I put into vimeo. done

blow45
Apr 26, 2012, 08:36 PM
This...



PS. Are we still talking about a beta version of ML or have I missed the public release? Surely some of the issues will be ironed out before the full release in August

I hope they don't use they same iron they used when they released lion...:rolleyes:

andrewpturko
Apr 30, 2012, 11:53 PM
Speaking only for the new features (not stability, etc.), if you don't like what ML has to offer, why upgrade? Same with Lion - why'd you do it? Personally, most of the changes I've seen are beneficial. Seems like the OP isn't to fond of change. I can understand not liking the features that aren't beneficial, but when "turning off notification center" was mentioned, I then took on this point of view. What's wrong with notification center? Is change good or bad? There really is no right or wrong answer to this, just a preferred answer to the relative person. One guy is pro beneficial change, the next isn't... I am, because I tend to think beneficial change is...beneficial.

Freyqq
May 1, 2012, 03:55 PM
Unless an OS offers something you need/want just stick with the older one.

I'd like to, but in a few months when 10.8 is released, they are going to end all support for 10.6. If possible, I'd like to stay with 10.6. However, no support means no security updates, etc.

rumandcoke
May 11, 2012, 02:49 PM
The additions are nice, but I only keep up with the upgrades so that my sistem does not become obsolete.

dukebound85
May 11, 2012, 02:52 PM
Unless an OS offers something you need/want just stick with the older one.

which would be nice if newer machines could support older os's

mrsir2009
May 11, 2012, 04:16 PM
For the first time I'm not going to upgrade my OS when ML comes out. They're pushing things like notes and reminders as major features... Seriously?

Mac32
May 11, 2012, 04:36 PM
I totally agree with the OP, it seems Apple is getting lazy. Too much success can be dangerous...

Notes and reminders, search in Safari address bar..wow, that sounds amazing. :rolleyes:

And a lot of the changes introduced in Lion are just plain stupid and pointless, they mess up the workflow, and make OSX a less intuitive and seamless experience. A shame, really..

nuckinfutz
May 11, 2012, 04:58 PM
People said the same when Snow Leopard was announced.

jameslmoser
May 11, 2012, 06:59 PM
People said the same when Snow Leopard was announced.

I don't recall that.... I certainly didn't. I loved the upgrade just as I had all the ones prior to it. That was not the case for Lion. I certainly didn't recall this much complaining almost a year after Snow Leopards release.

Lion is a mess for Apple, and they (and more importantly, their users) know it which is why Snow Leopard is still the biggest share of the mac os x user base. The advertised features of Mountain Lion are "Notes" and "Reminders" apps?!?! Thats because the real goal of it was to fix Lion's issues and put it behind them. You probably won't see them make a TV commercial out of that one...

kikuchiyo
May 11, 2012, 07:07 PM
.7 has been a buggy unpolished release introducing new features almost no one who's been using macs for some time has really found them especially helpful

I've been using Macs since before Tiger and while I have had a lot of problems with Lion, Fullscreen has changed my workflow for the better.

iCloud integration means I have been able to dump Google Calendar and Contacts. Changes made on my phone automagically propagate to my computer. iCal has gone from some weird app I started up a handful of times between 2005 and this year to being an auto-login application.

Different desktops with different backgrounds has improved my work flow as I immediately know "where" I am in my Desktops.

nuckinfutz
May 11, 2012, 07:14 PM
I don't recall that.... I certainly didn't. I loved the upgrade just as I had all the ones prior to it. That was not the case for Lion. I certainly didn't recall this much complaining almost a year after Snow Leopards release.

Lion is a mess for Apple, and they (and more importantly, their users) know it which is why Snow Leopard is still the biggest share of the mac os x user base. The advertised features of Mountain Lion are "Notes" and "Reminders" apps?!?! Thats because the real goal of it was to fix Lion's issues and put it behind them. You probably won't see them make a TV commercial out of that one...

I too loved the update because it was about cleaning out the innards and preparing the underpinnings for more rapid advancement. It had very little new "chrome" which was the center of most the complaints if memory serves me well.

The chief complaints that I read about Lion are typically the inflexibility of the new UI features like Auto Save, Versions & Mission Control. I view these as easily fixable as they are surface features. Behind the scenes plenty of work happened on Lion to move it forward architecturally.

As for the advertised features it makes sense to me. Apple is reaching out to computer users with a wide dynamic range of expertise in computers.

The average Mac user probably doesn't want to be bored with technicalities. They want a "take home" message. The ones with good tech knowledge have to do more sleuthing to find out what important changes have happened behind the scenes.

Lion, IMO, was more of a UI gaffe by Apple that I expect will largely be remedied via Mountain Lion.

blow45
May 11, 2012, 08:00 PM
I've been using Macs since before Tiger and while I have had a lot of problems with Lion, Fullscreen has changed my workflow for the better.

iCloud integration means I have been able to dump Google Calendar and Contacts. Changes made on my phone automagically propagate to my computer. iCal has gone from some weird app I started up a handful of times between 2005 and this year to being an auto-login application.

Different desktops with different backgrounds has improved my work flow as I immediately know "where" I am in my Desktops.

Ok, cool, glad you found three things useful. I had mm and would have liked iCloud on sl, so syncing hasn't been an addition for me, all the more so when I had, thank god for that btw, go to Dropbox and lose keychain sync. I appreciate your honesty for commenting that you had many problems with lion as well. Full screen I find useful to, but buggy and slow so far, plus many programs I used had a full screen mode anyway. I am not trying to play down its importance, it's a good addition. I concur i made a generalisation in my original post, to make a point, of course you can't have a new os, from apple for that matter, and find exactly zero new things helpful for most users. That wouldn't have been a poor release, that would have been akin to the titanic in os releases.

But by and large what I said is true, apple's additions, esp. core iOS inspired "features" almost no one has found them particularly useful, on the contrary most people have found them particularly annoying. I ask you in all honesty, if you could have sl with iCloud, would now consider downgrading, or upgrading rather to it? I know I would.

@nukkin. Well put, it was a ui gaffe, but i also think it also showcased poor core os development as well. It seems something is deeply broken with resource management, and the added ui features and layers on top make it even more apparent. Superb advances in ssd and CPU technology can mask it in some systems, but apple has been over reliant on these. 4gb macs are currently the minimum for running basic usage scenarios on macs, and this shouldn't be the case, all the more so when a good number of the line up, some airs for example max out at 4gb.

Rychy
May 12, 2012, 05:32 PM
Besides general bugginess, braking Spaces is the thing I probably hate most about Lion. If they'd just bring back how it worked in Leopard / Snow Leopard, I'd be a bit happier with Mountain Lion.

Another thing that simply annoys me is the continuing uglification of the UI. I was always hoping for a more uniform UI across applications. Now we're looking at legal pads, index cards, torn calendar pages, address books ... is the next major release of iTunes going to look like a jukebox?

kikuchiyo
May 12, 2012, 08:11 PM
But by and large what I said is true, apple's additions, esp. core iOS inspired "features" almost no one has found them particularly useful, on the contrary most people have found them particularly annoying. I ask you in all honesty, if you could have sl with iCloud, would now consider downgrading, or upgrading rather to it? I know I would.

All I was saying was that your original statement, that anyone with experience with Mac OS is sick of Lion, is untrue. You should be more precise. I knew you'd reply saying "well, what I said is still true, mostly."

And honestly, as for my individual opinion, no I wouldn't downgrade to Snow Leopard. I like Fullscreen. I like Resume, mostly. Abandoning Rosetta hit me hard, but not nearly as hard as I thought it would and it was a necessary move. If it weren't for some UI errors I'd have almost no issue with Lion. (http://gbatemp.net/gallery/image/5581-desktop/) I've still got SL on my Mac Mini HTPC/server and it's fine there, but for my day to day machine I'm relatively happy with SL (or I would have nuked it from space and reinstalled SL). Even with iCloud, I'd probably stay on Lion until ML is released.

blow45
May 12, 2012, 08:51 PM
All I was saying was that your original statement, that anyone with experience with Mac OS is sick of Lion, is untrue. You should be more precise. I knew you'd reply saying "well, what I said is still true, mostly."

And honestly, as for my individual opinion, no I wouldn't downgrade to Snow Leopard. I like Fullscreen. I like Resume, mostly. Abandoning Rosetta hit me hard, but not nearly as hard as I thought it would and it was a necessary move. If it weren't for some UI errors I'd have almost no issue with Lion. (http://gbatemp.net/gallery/image/5581-desktop/) I've still got SL on my Mac Mini HTPC/server and it's fine there, but for my day to day machine I'm relatively happy with SL (or I would have nuked it from space and reinstalled SL). Even with iCloud, I'd probably stay on Lion until ML is released.

I didn't claim it's still true mostly, I claimed it's still true period, to the extent one can generalise and imply that they are not referring to every single user on the globe.:)

I think just before the parentheses you meant to say lion, happy you can make it work on a mini, I had nothing but trouble with it ona brand new 4gb mini. I am also happy that you mostly like resume, makes for a nice change when you do find someone who actually likes it even for the most part. Anyway, if you are a happy camper with lion, I honestly happy for you, at least some people still enjoy using os x despite apple's best efforts to make life hard for us.

blow45
May 12, 2012, 09:09 PM
I don't recall that.... I certainly didn't. I loved the upgrade just as I had all the ones prior to it. That was not the case for Lion. I certainly didn't recall this much complaining almost a year after Snow Leopards release.

Lion is a mess for Apple, and they (and more importantly, their users) know it which is why Snow Leopard is still the biggest share of the mac os x user base. The advertised features of Mountain Lion are "Notes" and "Reminders" apps?!?! Thats because the real goal of it was to fix Lion's issues and put it behind them. You probably won't see them make a TV commercial out of that one...

I had missed your post, very intelligently observered, you are the first one who's said it from what I ve read, and it makes absolute sense that ml inst a way to have something against windows 8 but to fix some core lion usability problems (core code problems they don't have the time or programming teams to do so so sadly) and quickly put it behind them...very astutely observed indeed. And of course you can't do a keynote about it and you have to prerelease it to people like Gruber who **** themselves if they get a call from apple marketing and meet in a posh hotel suite with Schiller over cocktails, and then go one to write about it as if they had been debriefed for a mission critical space exploration project finally validating the existence of extra terrestrial life.

kikuchiyo
May 12, 2012, 11:13 PM
I think just before the parentheses you meant to say lion

You're right. My mini is running SL, my aging MBP is running Lion. Lion has issues, but on the balance I'm OK with it. That's all I wanted to point out. Thanks for being polite :)