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skaertus
Apr 21, 2012, 08:44 PM
Well, the comparison was unavoidable. Mac OS and Windows being released together once again. What are your feelings about these two?



atMac
Apr 21, 2012, 09:01 PM
I find it funny they are both on 8 as well.

I have not used 8 but If you can disable the tiles then I assume it will be better than 10.8 as I have used that a lot and do not enjoy it at all.

skaertus
Apr 21, 2012, 09:14 PM
I've tried Windows 8 CP and I have mixed feelings about the Metro UI. It looks like an amazing interface for tablets, but I found it just awkward to use in my desktop with a mouse and a keyboard...

How is OS X ML boot time? I was quite impressed by Windows 8, which boots in under 10 seconds... there is even a video on YouTube of Windows 8 booting in just 2 seconds... wow!

Jagardn
Apr 21, 2012, 09:27 PM
I've tried Windows 8 CP and I have mixed feelings about the Metro UI. It looks like an amazing interface for tablets, but I found it just awkward to use in my desktop with a mouse and a keyboard...

How is OS X ML boot time? I was quite impressed by Windows 8, which boots in under 10 seconds... there is even a video on YouTube of Windows 8 booting in just 2 seconds... wow!

I installed W8CP for one day, I couldn't get past the Metro UI on a desktop, it was just clunky. I agree, with tablets or a touch screen, it will be pretty nice.

I haven't used ML yet, but a 2 second boot time sounds pretty unrealistic. That sounds more like a time resuming from sleep. You also have to watch it with MS, they pulled that crap with XP where the desktop would load before services, so it would appear to boot faster.:rolleyes:

ixodes
Apr 21, 2012, 09:32 PM
Well, the comparison was unavoidable. Mac OS and Windows being released together once again. What are your feelings about these two?

Actually the comparison is completely avoidable. They are two totally different platforms. I doubt this is news to anyone.

However I'm sure that those who love to bash windows will be eager to post here.

atMac
Apr 21, 2012, 09:35 PM
I was actually just thinking about it more. I wonder how the tile page would work if I used a Microsoft multi-touch mouse to interact with it.

skaertus
Apr 21, 2012, 10:35 PM
I installed W8CP for one day, I couldn't get past the Metro UI on a desktop, it was just clunky. I agree, with tablets or a touch screen, it will be pretty nice.

I haven't used ML yet, but a 2 second boot time sounds pretty unrealistic. That sounds more like a time resuming from sleep. You also have to watch it with MS, they pulled that crap with XP where the desktop would load before services, so it would appear to boot faster.:rolleyes:

Look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc_PXEpq5ic

I am quite impressed.

But I can't stand the Metro UI on the desktop. What is the purpose of having a 22" screen if I am not able to put two windows side by side on the new Metro UI? It's great for tablets to have the web page occupying the whole screen. But for desktops?

Nielsenius
Apr 21, 2012, 10:44 PM
I don't think that the two OSes are comparable from a "who's the better upgrade" standpoint. Windows 8 is a quantum leap for Microsoft. OS X Mountain Lion is relatively minor step forward for Apple. I think that Windows 8 is great; it runs smoothly, it feels fresh, and I think that it'll blow consumers away. I think that Mountain Lion is nice; it'll definitely appeal to iOS users, it's got some cool new features that Lion lacks, but I doubt many Mac users will even care about this upgrade. The readers of this website are pretty much the only Mac users who give the slightest hoot about the changes that Mountain Lion brings. All in all, Mountain Lion and W8 are both great OSes, they're just not comparable in terms of which is the best upgrade. I see the switch from Windows 7 to Windows 8 as the same kind of leap as from SL to Lion.

hafr
Apr 22, 2012, 05:58 AM
I can't shake the feeling of wanting a touch screen when I use Windows 8... Maybe I'm just being stuck in old ways, but I don't like Windows 8 one bit. Windows 7 is great though.

I've done the comparison before, but for me ML is to Lion what Windows 7 was to Vista.

Mr. Retrofire
Apr 22, 2012, 06:59 AM
How is OS X ML boot time? I was quite impressed by Windows 8, which boots in under 10 seconds... there is even a video on YouTube of Windows 8 booting in just 2 seconds... wow!
Boot time-ouch! Do you use your Mac to reboot the OS 10000 times a day, or what? Some people have really the wrong obsession.

tkermit
Apr 22, 2012, 07:13 AM
I haven't used ML yet, but a 2 second boot time sounds pretty unrealistic. That sounds more like a time resuming from sleep.

Kind of. They're hibernating the kernel session (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/08/delivering-fast-boot-times-in-windows-8.aspx).

Starfighter
Apr 22, 2012, 07:21 AM
I don't even begin to understand why the interface, clearly adjusted for tablets and the like (like consoles that is navigated with controllers etc), would be a smart solution for a personal computer. :/

skaertus
Apr 22, 2012, 08:52 AM
The impression I have is that both Apple and Microsoft are trying to push a similar interface across a whole line of products - smartphones, tablets, laptops and desktops. To do this, they are forcing an interface which is appropriate for smartphones and tablets to laptops and desktops. And it just doesn't fit. Why does the interface has to be the same?

I have mixed feelings about the Launchpad in Lion and the Mac AppStore. Although they may be useful, I am not sure whether they represent the best approach. It's just a rip-off from the iOS and it feels unnecessary. Mountain Lion will further close the gap: I was not impressed by any of the announced features. Messages? Notification Center? Reminders? Notes? Game Center? Is Apple kidding? Will I buy a 27" quad-core iMac so it has the very same features as my iPhone? I don't want my Mac to be a big iPhone.

Microsoft is doing the same, and perhaps even worse. Windows 8 seems to merge two different products which just won't fit. There are two different Internet Explorers, for instance - one for the traditional desktop and the other for the Metro UI. And Metro UI is Windows Phone for desktops... why on Earth should I want a full-screen weather app on my desktop? Am I supposed to buy a 27" screen for that or what? It looks fine on the Windows Phone, but on a desktop? And why can't I have several windows opened side by side? Where are multi-tasking, multi-threading and all those concepts which Microsoft used to announce as big features of Windows back in 1995?

I'm Apple and Microsoft, what am I supposed to do? To throw my desktop into the trash and buy an iPad as my main computer? I want a real OS for desktops. A smartphone is not a computer and it is not supposed to be. Two different things. Why does the OS has to be (or at least look) the same?

hafr
Apr 22, 2012, 09:17 AM
I have mixed feelings about the Launchpad in Lion and the Mac AppStore. Although they may be useful, I am not sure whether they represent the best approach. It's just a rip-off from the iOS and it feels unnecessary. Mountain Lion will further close the gap: I was not impressed by any of the announced features. Messages? Notification Center? Reminders? Notes? Game Center? Is Apple kidding? Will I buy a 27" quad-core iMac so it has the very same features as my iPhone? I don't want my Mac to be a big iPhone.

Whilst composing an answer to this, I was surprised to find that I was basically only saying one thing: "I like it because it's so accessible and painless".

The Launchpad? Accessible (to get to, pinching) and painless access to the apps. AppStore? Accessible and it's easy to browse apps, you can find things you didn't know you were looking for. Kind of like going to IKEA. But that's pretty much the whole point, I guess ;) Messages? When I had a Nokia, I used the "text through computer" function in their software all the time. I like being able to have text conversions without having to keep fiddling with the phone. The notification center is great, two finger swipe from the side gives me a nice overview of things to do, not having to open Mail to see if the new mails were spam or not...

ML is not iOS, but to me ML has facilitated my life by integrating OS X and iOS into each other a bit more. There is still a lot of work to do before I will think it's okay, but I think they've succeeding in integrating the two operating systems whilst still keeping them separate.

scarred
Apr 22, 2012, 09:25 AM
I have mixed feelings about the Launchpad in Lion and the Mac AppStore. Although they may be useful, I am not sure whether they represent the best approach. It's just a rip-off from the iOS and it feels unnecessary. Mountain Lion will further close the gap: I was not impressed by any of the announced features. Messages? Notification Center? Reminders? Notes? Game Center? Is Apple kidding? Will I buy a 27" quad-core iMac so it has the very same features as my iPhone? I don't want my Mac to be a big iPhone.


I bought a 13" core i5 air with that promise. I bought my first Mac last year, partially because of the direction Apple took with Lion. I've really enjoyed the overlap that you are mocking. We all have tasks to do, and there are often times a few ways to do them.

skaertus
Apr 22, 2012, 10:06 AM
Whilst composing an answer to this, I was surprised to find that I was basically only saying one thing: "I like it because it's so accessible and painless".

The Launchpad? Accessible (to get to, pinching) and painless access to the apps. AppStore? Accessible and it's easy to browse apps, you can find things you didn't know you were looking for. Kind of like going to IKEA. But that's pretty much the whole point, I guess ;) Messages? When I had a Nokia, I used the "text through computer" function in their software all the time. I like being able to have text conversions without having to keep fiddling with the phone. The notification center is great, two finger swipe from the side gives me a nice overview of things to do, not having to open Mail to see if the new mails were spam or not...

ML is not iOS, but to me ML has facilitated my life by integrating OS X and iOS into each other a bit more. There is still a lot of work to do before I will think it's okay, but I think they've succeeding in integrating the two operating systems whilst still keeping them separate.

I'm OK with the Launchpad and the AppStore. I even think they are useful, although I also think that Apple was trapped in mimicking the concepts used in iOS while it could (perhaps) have developed a better and more OSX-like solution. I also think that there should be integration between iOS and OSX. I'm not against exchanging messages between the iPhone and the Mac.

The thing is, ML seems to be reduced to a rip-off of features from iOS. Integration with Messages and with Twitter are announced as some of the main features of ML. Game Center? Microsoft didn't announce XBOX Live or whatever as one of the main features of Windows 7 or 8. These are all niceties, but they should not be the bulk of innovation of an OS.

What is Apple doing apart from taking features of iOS and putting them on OSX? What about an improved file system to replace HFS+? Performance improvements (multi-threading, boot times, etc.)? Or embrace OpenCL even further to let developers (finally) release software supporting it? Better power management for extending battery life?

An OS is about these things. Not Twitter integration. Pfff...

MisterMe
Apr 22, 2012, 10:07 AM
...

I have mixed feelings about the Launchpad in Lion and the Mac AppStore. Although they may be useful, I am not sure whether they represent the best approach. It's just a rip-off from the iOS and it feels unnecessary. ...Rip-off? For the 157th time, iOS and OS X share a common UNIX codebase. As for LaunchPad, it is not my cup of tea so I ignore it until I use it to ensure that certain applications have been installed. LaunchPad has never ever impeded my use of my Mac in any way.

As an interface, this veteran Mac user remembers a similar albeit less functional UI back in the day. Apple offered a button-based interface for novices that was very popular on its Performa/Centris lines of Macs and available on all others. I cannot recall the name of this interface but Easy Start comes to mind.

Hugh
Apr 22, 2012, 04:47 PM
Rip-off? For the 157th time, iOS and OS X share a common UNIX codebase. As for LaunchPad, it is not my cup of tea so I ignore it until I use it to ensure that certain applications have been installed. LaunchPad has never ever impeded my use of my Mac in any way.

As an interface, this veteran Mac user remembers a similar albeit less functional UI back in the day. Apple offered a button-based interface for novices that was very popular on its Performa/Centris lines of Macs and available on all others. I cannot recall the name of this interface but Easy Start comes to mind.

It was called 'At Ease'. Just trying to refresh your memory, but you where close. ;)

Hugh

MisterMe
Apr 22, 2012, 06:07 PM
My memory needed a refresh. Thank you very much.

jnl1211
Apr 22, 2012, 08:58 PM
Windows 8 is 7 with a neat start panel. You need a Windows phone to take advantage of sync/integration stuff.

Sounds like a double fail to me

skaertus
Apr 23, 2012, 08:06 AM
Windows 8 is 7 with a neat start panel. You need a Windows phone to take advantage of sync/integration stuff.

Sounds like a double fail to me

The more I use Windows 8 CP, the more disappointed I get. There are two disconnected environments. And Metro UI seems very limited. I can't let several windows opened all at once. I can't use it to copy files. I can't even see or preview my files on it. Very, very limited indeed. It's great for a touch-screen device that you may use on-the-go, such as a tablet or a smartphone. But it doesn't fit desktops and laptops. What does Microsoft has on its mind?

blow45
Apr 23, 2012, 01:23 PM
An OS is about these things. Not Twitter integration. Pfff...

yeah but hipster kids and soccer moms want twitter. Oh, and no one need a 17" macbook pro or mac pro...

Btw, can anyone who's thrilled with launchpad tell me how on earth am I going to tell apart ten folders with app miniaturizations other than by reading the small print under each one and/or remembering their placement? (Can anyone here cross their heart and tell me they can tell apart folders in launchpad or ios by simply looking at the different miniaturizations each one contains and visually remembering to tell apart folders that way?)Probably the same way I can tell apart a monochromatic sidebar where all custom icon folders now revert to a blue generic one. How great that apple in the process of making os x look like ios because the marketing dept. said so has lost most of its good ui sense.

hafr
Apr 23, 2012, 01:51 PM
Btw, can anyone who's thrilled with launchpad tell me how on earth am I going to tell apart ten folders with app miniaturizations other than by reading the small print under each one and/or remembering their placement? (Can anyone here cross their heart and tell me they can tell apart folders in launchpad or ios by simply looking at the different miniaturizations each one contains and visually remembering to tell apart folders that way?)Probably the same way I can tell apart a monochromatic sidebar where all custom icon folders now revert to a blue generic one. How great that apple in the process of making os x look like ios because the marketing dept. said so has lost most of its good ui sense.

Most people don't move around their folders very often, and won't have excessive amounts of apps that they use seldom enough to forget which folder it's in, or where the folder is located in case the text can't be made clear enough for you. I'm guessing poor eyesight is a problem, given the Finder icon argument? Don't really know too much about the possibilities of making OS X more accessible in these circumstances.

Another solution is using new screens instead of folders. Just grab an app and drag it to the side - a new screen will be created.

On my iPhone, I know which folder is located where and don't need to read the labels to know which folder contains which type of apps. In OS X, I don't use folders in launchpad and I have no problems with the Finder icons not being color coded.

Being able to bring back the colorful icons is something Apple should consider, because I'm under the impression that quite a lot of people miss them. But I'm not really sure how you mean launchpad should be changed in order to make it clearer. Care to elaborate?

blow45
Apr 23, 2012, 02:03 PM
I don't care about launchpad, I 've not used it from day 1, and I don't see a purpose for it, if others find it helpful great. I was just pointing out, that miniaturized apps in folders can't be told apart from one another and one has to remember their position. It's good that you do, you probably have a younger brain with less worries in real life than I do, but on my idevices I can never remember their placement from the third screen onwards and I 've searched high and lo in the jailbreak community to be able to put a custom folder icon on top of the miniaturized one.

If apple would issue me a nice fat check I would also care to tell them how to improve launchpad btw, but simply because currently it borrows one (not so good) idea in terms of ui from ios doesn't make it good.


Most people don't move around their folders very often, and won't have excessive amounts of apps that they use seldom enough to forget which folder it's in, or where the folder is located in case the text can't be made clear enough for you. I'm guessing poor eyesight is a problem, given the Finder icon argument?
Oooops I 'd missed that bit. No you guessed wrong, it's not my poor eyesight, it's your poor judgment. Folders have always had colour and shape cues as in apple's sidebar because people can visually remember much quicker than reading (don't take my word for it, go to ANY basic brain science research). Folders that all look alike based on miniaturization of their contents is simply a bad idea in terms of ui, that's why I said can someone cross their heart and tell me they have clear VISUAL memory of one over the other folder in ios? I don't think anyone can, but thanks for the condescension about my eyesight because every ui from apple is just simply mana from heaven and can't be contested.

beosound3200
Apr 23, 2012, 02:26 PM
I don't care about launchpad, I 've not used it from day 1, and I don't see a purpose for it, if others find it helpful great. I was just pointing out, that miniaturized apps in folders can't be told apart from one another and one has to remember their position. It's good that you do, you probably have a younger brain with less worries in real life than I do, but on my idevices I can never remember their placement from the third screen onwards and I 've searched high and lo in the jailbreak community to be able to put a custom folder icon on top of the miniaturized one.

If apple would issue me a nice fat check I would also care to tell them how to improve launchpad btw, but simply because currently it borrows one (not so good) idea in terms of ui from ios doesn't make it good.



Oooops I 'd missed that bit. No you guessed wrong, it's not my poor eyesight, it's your poor judgment. Folders have always had colour and shape cues as in apple's sidebar because people can visually remember much quicker than reading (don't take my word for it, go to ANY basic brain science research). Folders that all look alike based on miniaturization of their contents is simply a bad idea in terms of ui, that's why I said can someone cross their heart and tell me they have clear VISUAL memory of one over the other folder in ios? I don't think anyone can, but thanks for the condescension about my eyesight because every ui from apple is just simply mana from heaven and can't be contested.

i admire your energy and strength to constantly rant about os x future.

well, one can only hope...

blow45
Apr 23, 2012, 02:47 PM
i admire your energy and strength to constantly rant about os x future.

well, one can only hope...

i pity you for having just enough energy to be sarcastic.

beosound3200
Apr 23, 2012, 02:52 PM
i pity you for having just enough energy to be sarcastic.

sadly, i wasnt being sarcastic.

but keep it up, i hope it fulfills you somehow (at least your time), because thats all you'll get

hafr
Apr 24, 2012, 02:27 AM
I don't care about launchpad, I 've not used it from day 1, and I don't see a purpose for it, if others find it helpful great. I was just pointing out, that miniaturized apps in folders can't be told apart from one another and one has to remember their position. It's good that you do, you probably have a younger brain with less worries in real life than I do
Yes, having poor memory has to be an indication of being older and having more worries in life :rolleyes:

If apple would issue me a nice fat check I would also care to tell them how to improve launchpad btw, but simply because currently it borrows one (not so good) idea in terms of ui from ios doesn't make it good.
You care enough to complain about it, not enough to help improve it and you reckon you're able to "beat" the entire Apple design team? You claimed to be older than me, but you sound like a thirteen year old...

Oooops I 'd missed that bit. No you guessed wrong, it's not my poor eyesight, it's your poor judgment. Folders have always had colour and shape cues as in apple's sidebar because people can visually remember much quicker than reading (don't take my word for it, go to ANY basic brain science research). Folders that all look alike based on miniaturization of their contents is simply a bad idea in terms of ui, that's why I said can someone cross their heart and tell me they have clear VISUAL memory of one over the other folder in ios? I don't think anyone can, but thanks for the condescension about my eyesight because every ui from apple is just simply mana from heaven and can't be contested.
Could you please elaborate what you mean with my "poor judgement"? For thinking you've got poor eyesight due to it mainly being older people saying there eyes aren't what they used to be who complain about these things?

So you're calling me a liar because I don't have any problems remembering where my apps are on my iPhone, and basically calling me a fanboy because I said that I don't have any problems with the current UI? Geez. Talk about being condescending...

You clearly have problems with the UI, and of course there could be improvements (which I also pointed out). What I said was that I don't. If you don't like the folders, don't use them. Put the apps on different screens instead, and use less folders. That way you might find a good balance that suits you.

baryon
Apr 24, 2012, 02:35 PM
I'm not a fan of this inconsistent "hybrid OS" thing, where there are two interfaces that have absolutely nothing to do with each other that you can switch between.

I find it funny how Microsoft markets the Metro UI as the new way to use your computer. No, it's not, no one is going to use it on a keyboard-and-mouse PC, since it doesn't make sense. It's only going to work on tablets, and maybe netbooks. It's not the preferred way to use your PC, it's a way to add a second UI to your computer that you aren't going to use, since you either use one or the other, depending on the device you're on.

At least ML is consistent in that it stays a full desktop OS, and you can simply ignore most of the iOS stuff going on, which is minor and non-intrusive most of the time (except Mission Control, unfortunately).

GIZBUG
Apr 24, 2012, 04:50 PM
I ran the Windows 8 CP on my laptop as my main OS and it was stable for daily use.

I am not sure if I want to run Mountain Lion Del Preview 3 though on my Mac Air on a daily basis, as I hear it is very buggy. Anyone here testing/running it on a daily use?

skaertus
Apr 24, 2012, 07:59 PM
I'm not a fan of this inconsistent "hybrid OS" thing, where there are two interfaces that have absolutely nothing to do with each other that you can switch between.

I find it funny how Microsoft markets the Metro UI as the new way to use your computer. No, it's not, no one is going to use it on a keyboard-and-mouse PC, since it doesn't make sense. It's only going to work on tablets, and maybe netbooks. It's not the preferred way to use your PC, it's a way to add a second UI to your computer that you aren't going to use, since you either use one or the other, depending on the device you're on.

At least ML is consistent in that it stays a full desktop OS, and you can simply ignore most of the iOS stuff going on, which is minor and non-intrusive most of the time (except Mission Control, unfortunately).

Couldn't agree more.

boilingpoint
Apr 25, 2012, 12:42 AM
Microsoft is doing the same, and perhaps even worse. Windows 8 seems to merge two different products which just won't fit. There are two different Internet Explorers, for instance - one for the traditional desktop and the other for the Metro UI. And Metro UI is Windows Phone for desktops... why on Earth should I want a full-screen weather app on my desktop? Am I supposed to buy a 27" screen for that or what? It looks fine on the Windows Phone, but on a desktop? And why can't I have several windows opened side by side? Where are multi-tasking, multi-threading and all those concepts which Microsoft used to announce as big features of Windows back in 1995?


I think MS will provide an option to switch lively operation mode between the metro-enabled tablet mode and the same classic desktop mode as in earlier Windows.

User can use the metro-enabled tablet mode for touchscreen equipped devices including tabletPC and can use the classic desktop mode for desktop and laptop PCs. Also user can use one of them for tablet-laptop hybrid devices by lively switching between the 2 modes.

The reason why MS have not provided the option, I guess, is that MS want users test and evaluate the metro environment as much as possible. The classic desktop mode has nothing to do, but the metro environment is totally new in desktop Windows.

----------

I ran the Windows 8 CP on my laptop as my main OS and it was stable for daily use.

I am not sure if I want to run Mountain Lion Del Preview 3 though on my Mac Air on a daily basis, as I hear it is very buggy. Anyone here testing/running it on a daily use?

Windows 8 will be the another masterpiece and make MS and AAPL repeat their '80~90 history soon again. :apple:

skaertus
Apr 25, 2012, 07:05 AM
Windows 8 will be the another masterpiece and make MS and AAPL repeat their '80~90 history soon again. :apple:

Which were the other masterpieces?

scottsjack
Apr 25, 2012, 01:43 PM
Windows 8 will be the another masterpiece and make MS and AAPL repeat their '80~90 history soon again. :apple:

Wow, "another masterpiece"? I'm a Mac user who also really likes Windows 7. I would be inclined to use W7 the majority of time if MS had created any kind of an application ecosystem similar to Apple's. Unfortunately they haven't.

Normal people don't by computers for the OS, they buy them to do tasks. MS has nothing that works as well as iPhoto, iTunes, iDVD, Mail, iCal, QT X,Address Book and Finder. My Mac Pro's scores for Geekbench 64-bit and Cinebench are higher on W7 than on either Lion or Snow Leopard. But where are the great everyday applications? Windows Live apps are like historical pieces from 2001.

On to Windows 8. I also have a Windows 8 disk for the MP. The real W8 part seems faster and more responsive than W7. I do miss the rounded corners on the windows but MS is apparently incapable of making rounded windows without jaggies (see XP and W7).

Unfortunately the Metro part sucks like a turbocharged Hoover. It's a horrible, pathetic mess on a 24in display. Without a W7 start button and the ability to shut off Metro I'll be staying with W7.

I've got Photoshop CS5 and Office that will need upgraded to the next versions soon. I only want to buy for one platform. So far it looks like Mountain Line is going to win over W8. Or, like all of those XP people I'll just hold on to W7 until W9 is released a couple of years later!

No Metro for me. And "charms"? Sorry, I'm a grown up. "Charms" seems like something on a preschooler's computer.

boilingpoint
Apr 25, 2012, 11:45 PM
iPhoto, iTunes, iDVD, Mail, iCal, QT X,Address Book and Finder.


Bro, do you think that all these apps are good enough?

I think there are several much better MS or 3rd party Windows apps than an each mentioned app.

Remember about 90% of global computer users are using Windows.

I hope OSX will be much better than Windows and majority of people will be using OSX. However, OSX is becoming crap in reality. It is sad story.


----------

Which were the other masterpieces?

I think they must be Win95, XP & 7. :rolleyes:

About 80% of global computer users are using XP & 7.

throAU
Apr 26, 2012, 12:16 AM
Have tried to use Windows 8 on and off for a few weeks. Its crap.

They've tried to use a touch UI on the desktop, and unlike Apple, they don't seem to be taking what works and leaving what doesn't behind.

Specifically : the new metro ui sucks if you are running in a VM, remote desktop session, etc. I've yet to see a compelling reason to consider it over Windows 7.

ScottishDuck
Apr 26, 2012, 04:57 AM
Windows 8 is a trainwreck. You cannot disable metro.

Any average computer user will despise this operating system.

Even vista was familiar.

rpmor
Apr 27, 2012, 06:20 PM
while i have sampled W8CP i think a previous user was fairly spot on. they're forcing users to test and get a feel for metro; they need the feed on metro more than anything else hence the likelihood that an option to disable it is missing...we can't judge what the final feature set will be or the options that aren't present based on a beta. i feel people assume this is the RC.

also while windows live apps are relics that require overhaul. their integration with skydrive, the possibility of moving between computers and easily syncing with documents due to the use of your windows live id/hotmail (you can literally walk to someone else's computer and sign in with it without creating an account) will all prove to be very strong feature sets esp once universities adopt it. these a strong features and this is the 'overhaul' and change everyone wanted Microsoft to attempt...might not please everyone judging from the Beta but its ballsy and if the features to disable it is there. we might just see a very strong and task capable OS in W8

blow45
Apr 27, 2012, 07:04 PM
Yes, having poor memory has to be an indication of being older and having more worries in life :rolleyes:


You care enough to complain about it, not enough to help improve it and you reckon you're able to "beat" the entire Apple design team? You claimed to be older than me, but you sound like a thirteen year old...


Could you please elaborate what you mean with my "poor judgement"? For thinking you've got poor eyesight due to it mainly being older people saying there eyes aren't what they used to be who complain about these things?

So you're calling me a liar because I don't have any problems remembering where my apps are on my iPhone, and basically calling me a fanboy because I said that I don't have any problems with the current UI? Geez. Talk about being condescending...

You clearly have problems with the UI, and of course there could be improvements (which I also pointed out). What I said was that I don't. If you don't like the folders, don't use them. Put the apps on different screens instead, and use less folders. That way you might find a good balance that suits you.
There's not an iota of what you ve said that's worth replying to, you should learn to respond to someone's points and not go off on tangents...oh and as you grow older and you accumulate knowledge and experience (which hopefully you will) you might find out you don't care to remember the placement of 20+ identical looking app containing folders on your device, it's not a matter of memory it's a matter of interests and priorities...

hafr
Apr 28, 2012, 03:34 AM
There's not an iota of what you ve said that's worth replying to, you should learn to respond to someone's points and not go off on tangents...oh and as you grow older and you accumulate knowledge and experience (which hopefully you will) you might find out you don't care to remember the placement of 20+ identical looking app containing folders on your device, it's not a matter of memory it's a matter of interests and priorities...

Funny comment, coming from the person who's only reply to my initial post was to call me a liar and a fanboy, assuming I had to be young and free of worries because I didn't agree with everything you said and claimed I had poor judgement. What has happened in your life to render your bitter and impolite enough that you as an adult come across as an angry teen?

Oh well, that's not important. But it would be interesting if you wanted to answer my posts without all the condescending crap. That means you would have to rewrite pretty much everything, but hey...

Doc69
Apr 28, 2012, 05:59 PM
The impression I have is that both Apple and Microsoft are trying to push a similar interface across a whole line of products - smartphones, tablets, laptops and desktops. To do this, they are forcing an interface which is appropriate for smartphones and tablets to laptops and desktops. And it just doesn't fit. Why does the interface has to be the same?

I have mixed feelings about the Launchpad in Lion and the Mac AppStore. Although they may be useful, I am not sure whether they represent the best approach. It's just a rip-off from the iOS and it feels unnecessary. Mountain Lion will further close the gap: I was not impressed by any of the announced features. Messages? Notification Center? Reminders? Notes? Game Center? Is Apple kidding? Will I buy a 27" quad-core iMac so it has the very same features as my iPhone? I don't want my Mac to be a big iPhone.

Microsoft is doing the same, and perhaps even worse. Windows 8 seems to merge two different products which just won't fit. There are two different Internet Explorers, for instance - one for the traditional desktop and the other for the Metro UI. And Metro UI is Windows Phone for desktops... why on Earth should I want a full-screen weather app on my desktop? Am I supposed to buy a 27" screen for that or what? It looks fine on the Windows Phone, but on a desktop? And why can't I have several windows opened side by side? Where are multi-tasking, multi-threading and all those concepts which Microsoft used to announce as big features of Windows back in 1995?

I'm Apple and Microsoft, what am I supposed to do? To throw my desktop into the trash and buy an iPad as my main computer? I want a real OS for desktops. A smartphone is not a computer and it is not supposed to be. Two different things. Why does the OS has to be (or at least look) the same?

Couldn't agree more.

blow45
Apr 28, 2012, 08:39 PM
Funny comment, coming from the person who's only reply to my initial post was to call me a liar and a fanboy, assuming I had to be young and free of worries because I didn't agree with everything you said and claimed I had poor judgement. What has happened in your life to render your bitter and impolite enough that you as an adult come across as an angry teen?

Oh well, that's not important. But it would be interesting if you wanted to answer my posts without all the condescending crap. That means you would have to rewrite pretty much everything, but hey...

You are replying to yourself, not me. These liar and fanboy tags are of your own invention. I really don't find anything to answer to in your acting out and projections.

When I point out a few thing and I say:
Oooops I 'd missed that bit. No you guessed wrong, it's not my poor eyesight, it's your poor judgment. Folders have always had colour and shape cues as in apple's sidebar because people can visually remember much quicker than reading (don't take my word for it, go to ANY basic brain science research). Folders that all look alike based on miniaturization of their contents is simply a bad idea in terms of ui, that's why I said can someone cross their heart and tell me they have clear VISUAL memory of one over the other folder in ios? I don't think anyone can, but thanks for the condescension about my eyesight because every ui from apple is just simply mana from heaven and can't be contested.

And you act out, you are calling me this and calling me that. You didn't even get what I said, I don't say you don't have a memory of where you 've positioned each folder, I said folders with miniaturizations can't be told apart from each other based their icon and I challenge anyone to claim they have a visual image of their say productivity folder on ios as opposed to almost everyone having a clear image of say the safari icon in their head. To make it even clear to you, you tell them apart based on remembering their placement, not their visual que, if they shuffled them up and took away their name underneath you d have to squint very attentively and try to figure out which ones which, unlike say safari, note, music etc. apps where if they shuffled them and took their name away you d tell them apart and go where you want to in milliseconds. That's why folders with miniaturized apps are a bad ui design.

Do you understand it now? Good ui dosnt rely on everything looking identical and people remembering the placement of items, otherwise the dock would have one icon repeated * X times and people would find everything via the position. Good ui design also dos not rely on you reading underneath anything, otherwise the dock would again have a bunch of names underneath. Names in os are ther in case one doesn't know or remember what something is, such as say a new app, or one seldom used. That's the purpose. Once a visual association with the item has been made, their name isn't meant to be read for frequently used apps, it's the adjunct help. But in folders you have to read or remember placement because unless someone is som über 20/20 vision person with a 1/100,000 ability for minor photographic detail in their memory, folders in ios can't be QUICKLY told apart via their vision cue.

This all flew over your head of course and you started oh you accuse me of being a liar and a fanboy, blah, blah, and after condescending others of poor eyesight because folders in os can't be told apart you, and condescending others about poor memory because they don't care to remember where 20+ folders are positioned in 5+ screens on iOS, you are whining about being condescended...

scottsjack
Apr 30, 2012, 02:48 PM
Bro, do you think that all these apps are good enough?

I think there are several much better MS or 3rd party Windows apps than an each mentioned app.

Remember about 90% of global computer users are using Windows.

Good point. I was only speaking of Mac right out of the box compared to a Windows machine right out of the box. Windows 7, Photoshop CS5 or 6 and Office 2010 are a winning combination, very fast and very easy to use.

loon3y
Apr 30, 2012, 02:55 PM
u can disable it and have a classic desktop view.

rbrian
May 7, 2012, 07:25 AM
I was quite surprised to find that I rather like Windows 8, with the exception of a few minor things that I expect to be fixed in the final version. On an 11" Air, Metro looks fantastic - I can't speak for larger screens. The way you can snap two apps together works really well, and I'd like to see something similar for full screen apps in OS X. The way it's all so stripped down makes it clean and simple, ideal for novice computer users, and those who just want to get on with the content and ignore the chrome - but it could do with a few more menu options.

The single sign on is a great idea - imagine going to an intent café and logging onto your computer, or using your own computer at work instead of the horrible, slow, crashy machines they give you! There are of course some downsides - you won't be able to log onto your work machine, because it will be forbidden by group IT policy, and the moment you leave the internet café somebody will log on after you and steal your identity... but it's nice to dream.

The two things which make it most frustrating are also, I suspect, the two easiest things to fix - Metro is crying out for multi-touch trackpad support, and too many of the apps aren't available in the UK. I'd love to know what the XBox companion is all about, but it won't let me sign in.

leman
May 7, 2012, 07:46 AM
I have mixed feelings about the Launchpad in Lion and the Mac AppStore. Although they may be useful, I am not sure whether they represent the best approach. It's just a rip-off from the iOS and it feels unnecessary. Mountain Lion will further close the gap: I was not impressed by any of the announced features. Messages? Notification Center? Reminders? Notes? Game Center? Is Apple kidding? Will I buy a 27" quad-core iMac so it has the very same features as my iPhone? I don't want my Mac to be a big iPhone.


I don't really know what to say to this... It sound like you are complaining about Apple adding more usability features. (sarcasm on) Oh no, let as return back to the glorious terminal days, why need UI at all?

Launchpad - I don't care for it either, but I don't see whats so bad about it - its a nice UI for organizing and launching your applications, and I don't see anything negative about it being similar to the iOS UI. Windows and Linuxes had similar things for years, only organized as menus. Why not complain about that?

AppStore - oh no, a centralized source for getting and reinstalling software in a convenient way. Now that's a horrible thing! Please ban Linux with its package management systems as well.

Messages - a chat program which can also send sms messages to phones. That's such a horrible idea! I'd rather type that text using my iPhone. Desktop is for serious stuff!

Notification Center - who needs stuff like that? Never mind that Growl is actively used and appreciated by tons of Mac users.

Reminders and Notes - even more organizing features build into the OS. That's so horrible!

See what you are doing here? You are just whining, and for no apparent reason. The features in themselves are perfectly logical and far from being useless.

Now, I agree that I would prefer see some advancement on the technical side of OS X. It really needs a new filesystem, better OpenGL drivers as well as Opengl 4.2 support, maybe a new memory manager, an iCould-based file sync and so on. I too have a feeling that they concentrate on the cosmetic side of things and neglect the technical base and I would like that to change somehow. Regardless, I don't see how ML impairs your user experience, it actually only improves it. In contrast to Windows 8 Metro.

underblu
May 7, 2012, 08:54 AM
Leopard is intuitive, elegant, and efficient, imo the perfect OS and Snow Leopard is a further refinement of a near perfect OS.

It appears Apple is looking to eventually do away with separate OSs for its computers and mobile devices and make them all run under iOS, Microsoft has done just that with W8. Essentially creating a single OS across multiple devices

Unfortunately, optimizing an OS for mobile touch devices creates compromises when using that same OS in a desktop/laptop environment and as such I see both these OSs as a step backward.

nuckinfutz
May 7, 2012, 09:21 AM
Leopard is intuitive, elegant, and efficient, imo the perfect OS and Snow Leopard is a further refinement of a near perfect OS.

It appears Apple is looking to eventually do away with separate OSs for its computers and mobile devices and make them all run under iOS, Microsoft has done just that with W8. Essentially creating a single OS across multiple devices

Unfortunately, optimizing an OS for mobile touch devices creates compromises when using that same OS in a desktop/laptop environment and as such I see both these OSs as a step backward.

No apple is intending to keep them separate. Keeping things like Notes, Reminders etc isn't pointing to OS X and iOS merging it's merely employing common sense and realizing that the data should be easy to keep in sync between the Apple mobile and desktop devices.

The only hint you'd have about a potential merger in the OS would be if the programming frameworks behind each platform began to merge. Today you still have to programmable frameworks for each platform.

AppKit - standard mouse/kb driven Mac apps

UIkit - Touch based user input. iOS.

Apple has done little at this point to attempt any merger between these frameworks.

haravikk
May 7, 2012, 10:04 AM
If anything I'm worried about the direction of both.

Windows 8 is clearly taking a big leap towards the tablet space, and while the new Metro interface does make it a decent contender for a tablet device, its still the same bloated OS, and the desktop side of things is now the worse off for all the changes, resulting in a mismatched mess.

Mountain Lion is certainly adding a lot of new stuff from iOS, which isn't a bad thing. However, I still get the feeling that the new features aren't as desktop oriented as they could be; in particular the apparent unwillingness to bother with proper multi-monitor support is worrying, for features like fullscreen and notification centre. We can only hope that that'll change, but it seems unlikely.


Windows 8 is a bigger update than Mountain Lion, but I feel a lot more comfortable with Mountain Lion's changes, as it's more of a refinement. Even so, Apple isn't spending quite as much time on the desktop version of features as they could be, and it shows in Lion and seems like it's going to be much the same in Mountain Lion as well.