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bluewooster
Apr 26, 2012, 09:30 AM
Before I give up - any advice?

Im trying to convert the mkvs I made from my blurays and DVDs (with makemkv) to mp4 but preserve softcoded subs. I think i've read every post pertaining to this on the forum. I've tried a multitude of programs (handbrake, subler, ivi, mkvtools, media xcode, dvd catalyst, etc) without success. I could render no PGS subs in handbrake but this was otherwise excellent. Dvd catalyst was also quite good but burns in the subs.

The stumbling block for me is the subtitles. These are not an option for us - we need them. But I'm picky and want them softcoded.

Currently i use a nettop with xbmc that plays everything perfectly. But we use our appletv for photos, music, itunes, etc and id like to be able to simply access everything on the apple tv. (Ive jailbroken it and have xbmc on it but it chokes on the bluray mkvs).

Any ideas or is this just not do-able at this moment?



mic j
Apr 26, 2012, 10:37 AM
Before I give up - any advice?

Im trying to convert the mkvs I made from my blurays and DVDs (with makemkv) to mp4 but preserve softcoded subs. I think i've read every post pertaining to this on the forum. I've tried a multitude of programs (handbrake, subler, ivi, mkvtools, media xcode, dvd catalyst, etc) without success. I could render no PGS subs in handbrake but this was otherwise excellent. Dvd catalyst was also quite good but burns in the subs.

The stumbling block for me is the subtitles. These are not an option for us - we need them. But I'm picky and want them softcoded.

Currently i use a nettop with xbmc that plays everything perfectly. But we use our appletv for photos, music, itunes, etc and id like to be able to simply access everything on the apple tv. (Ive jailbroken it and have xbmc on it but it chokes on the bluray mkvs).

Any ideas or is this just not do-able at this moment?
Are you having a problem with all subtitles, DVD and Bluray? Or just one type? From your description, I sense a lot of frustration, which is understandable, but am not quite picking up what exactly you are having a problem with.

Sedulous
Apr 26, 2012, 11:37 AM
I don't think PGS subs work in .mp4. Just like .vob subs, you will need an OCR solution to convert them to .srt. D-subtitler can be used on Mac (Suprip on Windows) for this purpose.

It may just be easier to grab the appropriate .srt from the internet. I use Subs.to (http://www.subs.to/) because this site includes frame rate (important for syncing). Unfortunately it is sometimes difficult to find a .srt that is perfectly synced but often this can be adjusted using the offset option in Subler.

omni
Apr 26, 2012, 12:10 PM
I go out of my way to have soft subtitles as well - so I understand your frustration.

Let's break this down to make things a little simpler though.

DVD - this is super simple and you should have very little issues. The biggest issue you will run into is when the DVD itself doesn't include a subtitle or closed caption track. But my workflow is simply this:

Rip the DVD with something like Mac the ripper or ripit. Once it is ripped (note that you could just feed it directly to handbrake) feed it into handbrake and click on the subtitle button. Under track select the track you are looking for. I'm at work and don't have handbrake open in front of me but there is usually a closed caption track of some kind to select. It may not be in all languages though.

Blu ray - this one is more complicated. There are tons of solutions, even on this forum, for doing this. But they all require OCR and some slight baby sitting that I have no real desire to do. So I just fine the .srt file online - subscene.com is where I usually go.

The problems I usually run into is extended editions. For some reason the release scene loves to only do the extended versions. And you may have to download 1 or 2 different files looking for the right one but I think I have always found a .srt for everything. Tv shows sometimes get a little more complicated but usually just google search something like 'Lost season 1 srt' will turn up what you are looking for.

On the DVD side of things it really is a solved problem and you should have very few problems - especially if the source has the file you are wanting. Blu ray is a little more complicated but definitely not impossible.

dynaflash
Apr 26, 2012, 12:16 PM
I don't think PGS subs work in .mp4. Just like .vob subs, you will need an OCR solution to convert them to .srt. D-subtitler can be used on Mac (Suprip on Windows) for this purpose.
Very true on PGS. That said a patch is being tested in hb to burn in PGS subs to a mp4. pass thru on mkv. This of course does not solve the OPs request for a soft sub in a mp4 however. Just thought I'd mention it.

It may just be easier to grab the appropriate .srt from the internet. I use Subs.to (http://www.subs.to/) because this site includes frame rate (important for syncing). Unfortunately it is sometimes difficult to find a .srt that is perfectly synced but often this can be adjusted using the offset option in Subler.
Agreed as well. HB also has an offset option when importing a .srt. Again just mentioning it.

Sedulous
Apr 26, 2012, 12:31 PM
Very true on PGS. That said a patch is being tested in hb to burn in PGS subs to a mp4. pass thru on mkv. This of course does not solve the OPs request for a soft sub in a mp4 however. Just thought I'd mention it.

Agreed as well. HB also has an offset option when importing a .srt. Again just mentioning it.

Handbrake doesn't remux, so you sort of need to know the offset prior to starting a transcode. Or is there something I am missing?

dynaflash
Apr 26, 2012, 12:46 PM
Handbrake doesn't remux, so you sort of need to know the offset prior to starting a transcode. Or is there something I am missing?

Live preview will honor an imported srt. so you could use live preview to test and see if you are in sync. Was only pointing out that hb has offset as well as subler. Also you could observe the offset in vlc or mplayer if you wanted to test it ahead of time. Just an observation.

bluewooster
Apr 26, 2012, 12:50 PM
Thanks all for the advice!

You're right - the DVDs are no problem under handbrake - i should have been more clear.

I will definitely explore obtaining srt subs. I had thought that syncing them would be difficult but, as my mkvs are all from purchased blurays, maybe the files i need exist? You then use subler to add it in the mp4 when you are recoding?

omni
Apr 26, 2012, 01:09 PM
All my mkvs are from purchased Blu ray movies as well.

My work flow is simply this: convert the Blu ray to mkv using makemkv, encode using handbrake. Find a srt file and add it with subler. Save the file - load up the file in QuickTime and turn on the subtitle option - quickly scan beginning, middle and near the end of the movie to see if the subs are synced. If not - first thing I look for is another file to download. If I really can't find one then I'll use subler to offset the time.

Since you are wanting a soft subtitle - its way more flexible to find/add a subtitle track way after encoding the movie.

Sedulous
Apr 26, 2012, 01:17 PM
Thanks all for the advice!

You're right - the DVDs are no problem under handbrake - i should have been more clear.

I will definitely explore obtaining srt subs. I had thought that syncing them would be difficult but, as my mkvs are all from purchased blurays, maybe the files i need exist? You then use subler to add it in the mp4 when you are recoding?

Just open the mp4/m4v in Subler, and literally drop the .srt into the track window. It might ask you to assign it a language. Hit save. Shouldn't take more than 3 seconds.

mic j
Apr 26, 2012, 01:20 PM
Thanks all for the advice!

You're right - the DVDs are no problem under handbrake - i should have been more clear.

I will definitely explore obtaining srt subs. I had thought that syncing them would be difficult but, as my mkvs are all from purchased blurays, maybe the files i need exist? You then use subler to add it in the mp4 when you are recoding?
I transcode with HB then add the srt to the mp4 using Subler. Save. Then watch the movie using VLC, with my cellphone stopwatch in hand. Measure the offset. Go back into sublet, and change the offset as needed. Save. Recheck the subtitle sync and you're done.

bluewooster
Apr 26, 2012, 05:52 PM
Ive got an older computer so conversions with handbrake arent to be taken lightly for me. As it looks like i have a lot of converting to do, i was toying with the idea of a new system (its time anyway). It has also occurrd to me that i could probably just buy all the shows i already own thru itunes (still cheaper than a new computer but a bit redundant). However, it seems that most of my shows dont have subtitles on itunes either so id be no better off!

At any rate, thanks again for the help - ive already done one episode complete with soft subs. At one episode a day, i should be done just in time for the apple tv 4!

Sedulous
Apr 26, 2012, 07:18 PM
Ive got an older computer so conversions with handbrake arent to be taken lightly for me. As it looks like i have a lot of converting to do, i was toying with the idea of a new system (its time anyway). It has also occurrd to me that i could probably just buy all the shows i already own thru itunes (still cheaper than a new computer but a bit redundant). However, it seems that most of my shows dont have subtitles on itunes either so id be no better off!

At any rate, thanks again for the help - ive already done one episode complete with soft subs. At one episode a day, i should be done just in time for the apple tv 4!

Remuxing should not take much time. CPU speed is not a factor since really all you are doing is copying the data streams from the .mkv to .mp4 container. Literally should take no more than 10 minutes for even a large file (>4 GB).

bluewooster
Apr 26, 2012, 07:42 PM
Unfortunately my dvd mkvs aren't h.264 so i cant just remux those (unless ive misunderstood something). The blurays can be remuxed but the file is usually unplayable thru ATV untouched (buffers every 15 seconds).

bluewooster
Apr 27, 2012, 01:33 AM
So I may have spoken too soon when I said that I was having no problems with subtitles on my DVD rips. I add them in handbrake and they are recognized in VLC but iTunes, QuickTime, and apple tv do not see them (I have all settings to English and closed captioning on). Could this be because I am using mkvs from makemkv as my source (ie. should I be using the original DVDs in handbrake)?

bluewooster
May 6, 2012, 01:26 AM
Sorry for resurrecting this thread (especially since it consists mostly of me talking to myself!) but I have two related questions to soft subtitles in MP4s:

1. Thanks to the info above, I am now converting DVDs and Blu-rays using handbrake and then adding .srts I find online using Subler. However, what to do when you can't find any subtitles anywhere? The "crown jewel" of my DVD collection is the complete 20 seasons of Law and Order (original-not the crappy offsprings) and I'm finding very few seasons that have complete subtitles. Do I have to extract the VOB from the mkv (I made using MakeMKV) and then convert it to .srt with some kind of OCR? Any recommendations on programs? Is this going to drive me insane?

2. Now that I'm handbraking full time, my computer is really showing its age (about 1.5 hr to do a 40 minute episode - average 24 fps). Any recommendations? (Sorry, I've already seen many of the comparisons posted in some of the lengthy threads here but I'm looking for someone to "convince" me to buy an imac!)

slothrob
May 6, 2012, 07:39 AM
Do I have to extract the VOB from the mkv (I made using MakeMKV) and then convert it to .srt with some kind of OCR? Any recommendations on programs? Is this going to drive me insane?
Most modern TV shows should have closed captions, which can be added in handbrake. Have you looked for closed captions under the subtitle option in Handbrake?

mic j
May 6, 2012, 08:02 AM
Most modern TV shows should have closed captions, which can be added in handbrake. Have you looked for closed captions under the subtitle option in Handbrake?

In the mp4 container, Handbrake will only burn them in. If you want soft subs, you either have to add an srt or make your final container an mkv.



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2. Now that I'm handbraking full time, my computer is really showing its age (about 1.5 hr to do a 40 minute episode - average 24 fps). Any recommendations? (Sorry, I've already seen many of the comparisons posted in some of the lengthy threads here but I'm looking for someone to "convince" me to buy an imac!)

You should feel lucky! Some of my conversions have been full length movies at 4fps!!!

I use Subler's subtitle OCR capability to create an srt from the vob sub. If you are really picky, you can then use Jubler to edit the srt. Somewhere in this forum, I have outlined the Subler process steps to generate an srt.

jetlife2
May 6, 2012, 08:36 AM
2. Now that I'm handbraking full time, my computer is really showing its age (about 1.5 hr to do a 40 minute episode - average 24 fps). Any recommendations? (Sorry, I've already seen many of the comparisons posted in some of the lengthy threads here but I'm looking for someone to "convince" me to buy an imac!)

Handbrake uses available cores really quite well. It will "nearly" max out whatever hardware you have. So if you do this a lot, you want the most of everything: most cores, most threads, best and fastest processor. The price delta for quad core vs dual core is not big and that is close to 2X right there. Don't forget last-generation used hardware can be fantastic value. I have a quad-i7 imac (mid-2010, 2.93G) and it screams (110fps - 225fps). The Sandy Bridge i7's (current gen) are even better.

You can use benchmark (Xbench, Geekbench) results to see what gain you would get. I suggest looking at the CPU benchmark alone, not the composite, as HB speed is dependent nearly entirely on the CPU, not hard drive speed, etc. Then you can look at what different price point hardware, new or used, would get you. Hope that helps.

slothrob
May 6, 2012, 08:36 AM
In the mp4 container, Handbrake will only burn them in. If you want soft subs, you either have to add an srt or make your final container an mkv.
No. Handbrake can add Closed Captions to an .m4v container as soft subtitles that can be turned on and off with the center button of the aTV remote.

mic j
May 6, 2012, 09:07 AM
No. Handbrake can add Closed Captions to an .m4v container as soft subtitles that can be turned on and off with the center button of the aTV remote.
The OP mention he wanted to do "softcoded subs". Closed caption and subtitles are different.

slothrob
May 6, 2012, 09:14 AM
The OP mention he wanted to do "softcoded subs". Closed caption and subtitles are different.
It's semantics, isn't it? He wants printed words that you can turn on and off.

Either way, I was replying to your comment that you can only burn in Closed Captions, which isn't the case.

mic j
May 6, 2012, 10:06 AM
It's semantics, isn't it? He wants printed words that you can turn on and off.

Either way, I was replying to your comment that you can only burn in Closed Captions, which isn't the case.

No, it's not semantics. Closed caption will often look less "refined" than subtitles. Also, CC's will have things like [music playing], [sigh], [loud noise] etc alerting those who are hearing impaired to what else is going on in the movie besides dialog. Subtitles are generally only a translation of dialog.

bluewooster
May 6, 2012, 10:17 AM
Mic J - big thank you! That OCR in subler works easily and "well enough" for me! Here's his post for anyone else in a similar predicament:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1345900&highlight=subler+ocr+srt+mic+j&page=2

Thanks again!

mic j
May 6, 2012, 10:29 AM
Mic J - big thank you! That OCR in subler works easily and "well enough" for me! Here's his post for anyone else in a similar predicament:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1345900&highlight=subler+ocr+srt+mic+j&page=2

Thanks again!
Happy to be of service.:)

Also, be aware that there is an "offset" setting in HB and Subler to correct any timing problems. I prefer to check the subtitle timing after muxing with Subler (using VLC), then do the transcode with HB. Nothing for frustrating than spending hours transcoding a movie to find out he subtitles don't match the dialog. It's more of a problem with downloaded srt's than Subler srt creation, however.

bluewooster
May 6, 2012, 01:47 PM
Oh no! The first two files worked beautifully but now subler quits unexpectedly every single time. To make matters worse, it "destroys" my source file (makes it unplayable). Ive looked through all the settings to make sure it isnt overwriting the original file so i dont see why this should be happening. Now i need to rerip these discs!

Any ideas why? Im using the latest beta if that matters.

mic j
May 6, 2012, 04:32 PM
Oh no! The first two files worked beautifully but now subler quits unexpectedly every single time. To make matters worse, it "destroys" my source file (makes it unplayable). Ive looked through all the settings to make sure it isnt overwriting the original file so i dont see why this should be happening. Now i need to rerip these discs!

Any ideas why? Im using the latest beta if that matters.

I had that happen once to me but since moving to the new beta I have have a lot fewer problems with crashing. At what point does it crash (importing metadata, saving, sending to queue, start queue, etc)? Are you adding metadata or making doing the OCR thing, remuxing, etc? Delete the app and reinstall. Also, if it is happening during SAVE, do a SAVE AS instead so you are not rewriting the file. The new beta (15b) has been very stable for me.

slothrob
May 6, 2012, 05:07 PM
No, it's not semantics. Closed caption will often look less "refined" than subtitles. Also, CC's will have things like [music playing], [sigh], [loud noise] etc alerting those who are hearing impaired to what else is going on in the movie besides dialog. Subtitles are generally only a translation of dialog.
I've never found that to be much of an annoyance. Certainly less distracting than bizarre OCR errors... and much less labor intensive.

mic j
May 6, 2012, 07:02 PM
I've never found that to be much of an annoyance. Certainly less distracting than bizarre OCR errors... and much less labor intensive.

Well...that's you. Drives me nuts. We are both just providing info to the OP, so he can decide what's his priorities/approach might be.

But it's not just semantics.:D

bluewooster
May 6, 2012, 08:48 PM
I had some initial success with OCR on subler but cant replicate it - it must be something im doing. I drag my mp4 to subler, select only the VOB and then add it to the queue for remuxing, i then select a destination location and then hit start (this is where it quits unexpectedly). Alternatively, instead of remuxing it, i save it to a new location. But when i open it and select the subtitle track, export does nothing. I guess deep down i dont really understand subler as it just doesnt make sense that i could get two episodes to work and now none!

bluewooster
May 6, 2012, 09:55 PM
Ok - i guess i didnt realize that the file needs to be imported - you cant just drag and drop. Ie. you need to open a new window then import the file. All is working well now.

mic j
May 7, 2012, 08:13 AM
Ok - i guess i didnt realize that the file needs to be imported - you cant just drag and drop. Ie. you need to open a new window then import the file. All is working well now.

No more crashing and eating files?

bluewooster
May 8, 2012, 12:03 AM
Yeah - reinstalling the software seemed to stop the unexpected crashes. The "unusable" files had actually simply been saved files with only the subtitles checked off. Once I went back in and checked the video and audio streams, everything worked fine. As usual, my problems were my own poor understanding of subler!

I've found that I can speed up my workflow by importing all episodes into one file (only importing the subtitles). It takes a long time to create the file (due to OCR) but, once it's done, I can simply select each stream and export it (remembering to change the name appropriately as it always defaults to the same). I can do subs for 23 episodes in one foul swoop!

I'm curious why Subler does this so well and easily. I had downloaded several other pieces of software to use OCR for converting VOBs and they were all very daunting (having to correct matrices and such). Are there other tools out there that simply take their best guess and produce something reasonable like this?

mic j
May 8, 2012, 09:03 AM
Yeah - reinstalling the software seemed to stop the unexpected crashes. The "unusable" files had actually simply been saved files with only the subtitles checked off. Once I went back in and checked the video and audio streams, everything worked fine. As usual, my problems were my own poor understanding of subler!

I've found that I can speed up my workflow by importing all episodes into one file (only importing the subtitles). It takes a long time to create the file (due to OCR) but, once it's done, I can simply select each stream and export it (remembering to change the name appropriately as it always defaults to the same). I can do subs for 23 episodes in one foul swoop!

I'm curious why Subler does this so well and easily. I had downloaded several other pieces of software to use OCR for converting VOBs and they were all very daunting (having to correct matrices and such). Are there other tools out there that simply take their best guess and produce something reasonable like this?
Nice trick you found. I'll have to keep it in mind.

Can't really answer your question but I agree, it's OCR works amazingly well. I use Subler all the time. I think it's worth sending the developer a few bucks.

zsolt67
May 8, 2012, 06:11 PM
Hi
I have similar problem maybe you can help me. I would like to extract a subtitle from free podcast downloaded with itunes, the format is mp4.
Looks like printed subtitle in 3rd track mp4info give me this info:

Track # 1 Info - TrackID 1 - TimeScale 44100 - Duration 00:28:21.418
Media Info: Language "Undetermined" - Type "soun:mp4a" - 73274 samples
MPEG-4 Config: Audio Stream - ObjectTypeIndication 0x40
MPEG-4 Audio AAC LC - 1 Channel(s) - SampleRate 44100
Self-synchronized
Track Meta type: "mdta" - 0 resource item(s)

Track # 2 Info - TrackID 2 - TimeScale 2500 - Duration 00:28:21.400
Media Info: Language "Undetermined" - Type "vide:avc1" - 42535 samples
Visual Track layout: x=0 y=0 width=640 height=480
MPEG-4 Config: Visual Stream - ObjectTypeIndication 0x21
AVC/H264 Video - Visual Size 640 x 480
AVC Info: 1 SPS - 1 PPS - Profile Baseline @ Level 3
NAL Unit length bits: 32
Synchronized on stream 1

Track # 3 Info - TrackID 3 - TimeScale 2500 - Duration 00:28:19.770
Media Info: Language "Undetermined" - Type "clcp:c608" - 881 samples
Unknown media type
Vendor code "...." - Version 0 - revision 0

I tried almost all demuxing solution but none recognised the 3rd track. If I see the video in iTunes or QT player the subtitle apear like sombody typing the characters and I can switch on and off the subtitle.
Do you have any idea how can I extract this kind of subtitle?

Sedulous
May 8, 2012, 10:31 PM
Hi
I have similar problem maybe you can help me. I would like to extract a subtitle from free podcast downloaded with itunes, the format is mp4.
Looks like printed subtitle in 3rd track mp4info give me this info:

Track # 1 Info - TrackID 1 - TimeScale 44100 - Duration 00:28:21.418
Media Info: Language "Undetermined" - Type "soun:mp4a" - 73274 samples
MPEG-4 Config: Audio Stream - ObjectTypeIndication 0x40
MPEG-4 Audio AAC LC - 1 Channel(s) - SampleRate 44100
Self-synchronized
Track Meta type: "mdta" - 0 resource item(s)

Track # 2 Info - TrackID 2 - TimeScale 2500 - Duration 00:28:21.400
Media Info: Language "Undetermined" - Type "vide:avc1" - 42535 samples
Visual Track layout: x=0 y=0 width=640 height=480
MPEG-4 Config: Visual Stream - ObjectTypeIndication 0x21
AVC/H264 Video - Visual Size 640 x 480
AVC Info: 1 SPS - 1 PPS - Profile Baseline @ Level 3
NAL Unit length bits: 32
Synchronized on stream 1

Track # 3 Info - TrackID 3 - TimeScale 2500 - Duration 00:28:19.770
Media Info: Language "Undetermined" - Type "clcp:c608" - 881 samples
Unknown media type
Vendor code "...." - Version 0 - revision 0

I tried almost all demuxing solution but none recognised the 3rd track. If I see the video in iTunes or QT player the subtitle apear like sombody typing the characters and I can switch on and off the subtitle.
Do you have any idea how can I extract this kind of subtitle?

Open file with Subler or MP4Tools. Select the tracks you want to extract. Click export (or extract).

8CoreWhore
May 8, 2012, 11:39 PM
Apple TV jailbreak install Firecore aTV Flash. Plays all file types beautifully. MKV and subs, no problem.

zsolt67
May 9, 2012, 05:04 PM
Open file with Subler or MP4Tools. Select the tracks you want to extract. Click export (or extract).

Subler cant open the mp4, mp4tools cant recognise 3rd track :(

----------

Apple TV jailbreak install Firecore aTV Flash. Plays all file types beautifully. MKV and subs, no problem.

I can play and read perfectly in itunes i would like to extrack not play only

mic j
May 9, 2012, 05:15 PM
Subler cant open the mp4, mp4tools cant recognise 3rd track
Have you tried MKVMerge GUI?

zsolt67
May 9, 2012, 05:18 PM
Have you tried MKVMerge GUI?

yes, but doesnt recognise either.

Start to beleive this is some special cc but I have checked other podcast with subtitle and all has this format so looks like this is a standard for itunes, but than what makes this so hard to find the solution :) :(

mic j
May 9, 2012, 05:58 PM
yes, but doesnt recognise either.

Start to beleive this is some special cc but I have checked other podcast with subtitle and all has this format so looks like this is a standard for itunes, but than what makes this so hard to find the solution :) :(

The best thing I can come up with then is to try and see if the app Subtitle Edit (free) can see it and then maybe convert it to something else. Subtitle Edit recognizes a lot of different type of subtitles.

Sorry not to be of more help.:(

zsolt67
May 9, 2012, 06:10 PM
The best thing I can come up with then is to try and see if the app Subtitle Edit (free) can see it and then maybe convert it to something else. Subtitle Edit recognizes a lot of different type of subtitles.

Sorry not to be of more help.:(

Thanks but no luck.

here is the file, if anybody interestid, you can see the subtitle with quicktime player and itunes
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_pXC7k0_ZA0SXJLVUk4bV8yVlE

Sedulous
May 9, 2012, 11:20 PM
Thanks but no luck.

here is the file, if anybody interestid, you can see the subtitle with quicktime player and itunes
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_pXC7k0_ZA0SXJLVUk4bV8yVlE

It sounds like a corrupt subtitle or chapter track.

zsolt67
May 10, 2012, 05:25 AM
Nikolaj Olson the Subtitle Edit (Windows) developer did the miracle so now I can see the subtitle :) Thanks for your help