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MacRumors
Apr 26, 2012, 02:21 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/04/26/apple-stores-replace-kids-table-imacs-with-ipads/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/04/newkidstable.jpg


Apple has replaced the iMacs that were previously on the kids' table at its retail stores with iPads, as first noticed by iMore (http://www.imore.com/2012/04/25/apple-retail-stores-replace-imacs-ipads-kids/). The switch is a clear sign of the direction the company is going, particularly with regards to its younger customer base.

The kids' table has been a staple of the Apple Retail Store since it the first locations opened more than 10 years ago. The original tables featured CRT iMacs surrounded by black balls from the Baleri Italia company (http://www.cerrutibaleri.com/prodotti/3/tato-collection) for children to sit on. Apple, as is typical, spares no expense when it comes to its retail stores -- the chairs cost more than $500 each.

Over the years, as the iMacs themselves have been updated, Apple has replaced the machines with newer models, but this is the first time that a product other than a Mac has been featured.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/04/oldkidstable.jpg


(Image of old kids table courtesy Flickr/Ralph and Jenny (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ralphandjenny/342662805/))

Article Link: Apple Stores Replace Kids' Table iMacs With iPads (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/04/26/apple-stores-replace-kids-table-imacs-with-ipads/)



ghostface147
Apr 26, 2012, 02:23 PM
Yeah I noticed this yesterday as I was getting my phone swapped out. No one was using them.

Liquinn
Apr 26, 2012, 02:23 PM
This says it all...

xionxiox
Apr 26, 2012, 02:23 PM
sexy

neiltc13
Apr 26, 2012, 02:24 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

LimeiBook86
Apr 26, 2012, 02:24 PM
The iPads are cheaper to replace then the iMacs I'm sure. :p No breaking of keyboards or mice either!

Either way it makes sense on a few levels. Get them hooked on an iPad early! ;) Plus there's a ton of educational software and books on the iPad, not to mention games. But it is sad to see the Macs go. I remember seeing G3 iMacs, eMacs, and of course G5 & Intel iMacs in the kids corner.

Gav2k
Apr 26, 2012, 02:25 PM
Great move!

chilly willy
Apr 26, 2012, 02:25 PM
Ruh-roh. Hopefully not some harbinger of the demise of iMacs and Macs in general......

jontech
Apr 26, 2012, 02:27 PM
Lol


Good call though since my little ones head the way of the iPads anyways since they can't use mine at home :)

GSPice
Apr 26, 2012, 02:27 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

I'm pretty sure kids who want an IT education won't be stopped by the iPad.

Bluehinder
Apr 26, 2012, 02:28 PM
This is news worthy? Rolls eyes

KPOM
Apr 26, 2012, 02:28 PM
It makes sense. Apple is pushing textbooks on the iPad. Plus, an iPad is more durable and affordable than their portable Macs, so I'm guessing they want to encourage the idea of parents purchasing iPads for their children.

QCassidy352
Apr 26, 2012, 02:29 PM
Pretty telling that they want the next generation learning iOS instead of OS X. I do think kids will like it better.

Consultant
Apr 26, 2012, 02:29 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

Why would everybody learn how to code?
Do doctors have to know how to code?
Do cab drivers have to know how to code?
Etc.

Eriden
Apr 26, 2012, 02:29 PM
While I must confess that I prefer the Apple Computer of the 2001-2007 era to the modern Apple Inc with its gradual shift to all things iOS, I must say that my 5 and 2 year old sons much prefer using my iPad to sitting in front of the iMac. My 5 year old has learned to read using my iPad from the ABC apps to the Ruckus Reader apps, it feels to me like tablet learning has a secure place in society going forward.

macmastersam
Apr 26, 2012, 02:29 PM
Those lil' kids on those iMacs in the second picture...

remember going in the apple store when i was 10 to play lego indiana jones on those things, aaaw! :D

Eric S.
Apr 26, 2012, 02:29 PM
No surprise, since Apple has been going to kiddie toys for years.

Shrink
Apr 26, 2012, 02:29 PM
A lot easier to nag mom and dad for an iPad than an iMac.

Get them while they're young, and you own them for life!:rolleyes:

OdinPoe
Apr 26, 2012, 02:30 PM
My goodness what I wouldn't give for at least one semi-substantial iMac rumor...

This does seem like a good move, the iPad tends to be a more intuitive experience from what I've seen with my own kids.

Boisv
Apr 26, 2012, 02:31 PM
This is a good move in some respects, but IMO Apple is once again forcing change too soon.

It makes sense to have iPads at the kids table. Kids take to iPads very easily, and tablets are the future of the home PC. But it isn't certain yet that tablets are the future of the workplace PC. I think it would benefit children to be exposed to both tablets and PCs.

My own daughter loves to use my iPad. At just 6 years old, she navigates it just fine. She knows where all of her apps are and how to use them. She navigates Netflix like a true American. :) But you'd better believe that I'm exposing her to more traditional PCs as well.

On a side note, my daughter started Kindergarden this year. I was delighted to see two eMacs in her classroom. I remember growing up in the 80s and 90s, we always used Apple computers in schoool. It's good to see some things haven't changed.

l.w41sh
Apr 26, 2012, 02:33 PM
Can I have one of the iMacs?

Small White Car
Apr 26, 2012, 02:33 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

Which is why all console game systems died out in the 1990's...because kids who grew up playing SNES and Genisis couldn't program on it none of them grew up to be video game designers.

That is what happened, isn't it? Maybe I'm misremembering.

fun173
Apr 26, 2012, 02:34 PM
I believe it is a marketing plan. I don't think many people will buy their little kid an iMac? But they sure might but them an iPad.

Eriden
Apr 26, 2012, 02:34 PM
Why would everybody learn how to code?
Do doctors have to know how to code?
Do cab drivers have to know how to code?
Etc.

I think the concern here is the potential creation of a generation of media consumers who barely know how to read, write, solve equations, etc... With parents who use their iDevices as mere babysitting tools with all the games available on iOS, it certainly seems like a valid concern.

Peace
Apr 26, 2012, 02:35 PM
Those lil' kids on those iMacs in the second picture...

remember going in the apple store when i was 10 to play lego indiana jones on those things, aaaw! :D

Perfect example of what the average kid does with an Apple device in a store. Play. And that's what they should do. Play. If parents want them to code they can take their children over to a Mac. Otherwise kids will be kids and play and what better thing to play with than an iPad.

Drunken Master
Apr 26, 2012, 02:35 PM
Cool.

They seemingly always have the iMacs at full blast volume at the stores I go to and the kids are playing games...it gets tiresome and noisy.

This should make things a little bit quieter. Not trying to stifle the kids' fun or imaginations, but we don't need four different games at the same time with the volume up unless it's an arcade. And then there would at least be that familiar "shoryuken!" yell somewhere in the background...

sucramdi
Apr 26, 2012, 02:36 PM
I've seen this a few weeks ago in Washington, and they seem to run a modified version of iOS without Safari, settings, notifications and other similar default apps.

NewbieCanada
Apr 26, 2012, 02:36 PM
Next thing you know they'll be replacing the kids' brewed coffee with Folger's crystals!

nwcs
Apr 26, 2012, 02:37 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

I don't know if I agree. I'm in my late 30s and used computers in school since second grade. In fact, it was even required in 8th grade to teach everyone how to code BASIC (all students). It was just assumed people would figure out how to handle word processing and such on their own. No classes for that.

So the fact that you got into IT and such even though the bar was lowered from what I went through shows that people who want to excel will find a way.

Personally, I would not allow computers in school until 7th or 8th grade. I think the skills learned doing things the hard way (fractions, long division, etc) are far more useful than learning how to press buttons on a calculator. Still, life goes on and we have to get used to things changing for good or ill.

Fazzy
Apr 26, 2012, 02:37 PM
Im sure my local store did this months ago..

Biscuit411
Apr 26, 2012, 02:39 PM
Makes sense. My kid has them in his kindergarten class and it's been a big help at home too.

Boisv
Apr 26, 2012, 02:40 PM
I think the concern here is the potential creation of a generation of media consumers who barely know how to read, write, solve equations, etc... With parents who use their iDevices as mere babysitting tools with all the games available on iOS, it certainly seems like a valid concern.

I don't see much of a concern.

First off, doing almost anything on an iPad requires a basic ability to read. But more importantly, the iPad can be a great tool for education. It can teach all of those things. It all depends on how you use it.

In fact, people said the same thing about comics, television, and then video games. But people still know how to read, write, and solve equations.

Asclepio
Apr 26, 2012, 02:41 PM
Perfect example of what the average kid does with an Apple device in a store. PAY. And that's what they should do. PAY. If parents want them to code they can take their children over to a Mac. Otherwise kids will be kids and PAY and what better thing to PAY with than an iPad.

good point.

Eriden
Apr 26, 2012, 02:41 PM
First off, doing almost anything on an iPad requires a basic ability to read.

You obviously don't have kids.

gatearray
Apr 26, 2012, 02:42 PM
Im sure my local store did this months ago..

Yep, it's been this way at 5th Ave for at least a few months. Brilliant move for a myriad of reasons, of course.

Sedulous
Apr 26, 2012, 02:42 PM
I wonder if they will have screen protectors and hand wipes.

ftaok
Apr 26, 2012, 02:43 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

Not everyone wants to be in IT. The ones that want to be in IT will use traditional computers. The ones that don't will use other devices. It's the same as it's always been.

In the 80's - the IT kids used Commodore 64's, Apple II's, and IBM PCjr's. Everyone else played on Atari, Coleco, or Intellivision

In the 90's - the IT kids used Windows. Everyone else played on Nintendos and Genesis's.

In the 2000's - the IT kids still use Windows and maybe UNIX/Linix. Everyone else played on Playstation's and XBox's ... and now, iPads.

Consultant
Apr 26, 2012, 02:44 PM
I think the concern here is the potential creation of a generation of media consumers who barely know how to read, write, solve equations, etc... With parents who use their iDevices as mere babysitting tools with all the games available on iOS, it certainly seems like a valid concern.

iPad improves student grades:
http://www.hmheducation.com/fuse/pilot-1.php

Dr McKay
Apr 26, 2012, 02:46 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

Less chance of some young whippersnapper taking your job ;)

Consultant
Apr 26, 2012, 02:47 PM
Not everyone wants to be in IT. The ones that want to be in IT will use traditional computers. The ones that don't will use other devices. It's the same as it's always been.

In the 80's - the IT kids used Commodore 64's, Apple II's, and IBM PCjr's. Everyone else played on Atari, Coleco, or Intellivision

In the 90's - the IT kids used Windows. Everyone else played on Nintendos and Genesis's.

In the 2000's - the IT kids still use Windows and maybe UNIX/Linix. Everyone else played on Playstation's and XBox's ... and now, iPads.

Not quite.

Facebook made on Mac (http://obamapacman.com/2009/09/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerberg-mac-user/) and other examples (http://obamapacman.com/category/mac-power-users/)

Eriden
Apr 26, 2012, 02:47 PM
In fact, people said the same thing about comics, television, and then video games. But people still know how to read, write, and solve equations.

Reread my post. I specifically mentioned parents who use iDevices as a babysitting tool rather than being involved with what their kids are using. And that could very well be a concern.

As to your examples: Watch the episode of that Rehab show with the 25 year old guy who has a videogame addiction. The guy would be completely unable to survive if his family wasn't taking care of him. I'm not saying that such a result is inevitable, I'm saying that it is a valid concern.

DTphonehome
Apr 26, 2012, 02:48 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

Yeah! The kid's section should be Mac Pros with a full-screen terminal window.

dona83
Apr 26, 2012, 02:49 PM
My two year old son LOVES playing on my iMac and he's quite good at it. He has an iPod Touch as well with other educational games for on the go, but you can't beat a full fledged computer for at home.

Yumunum
Apr 26, 2012, 02:50 PM
That table needs more to it. Like a colorful sign or something.

Right now it looks bland, and not very kid-attracting.

Peace
Apr 26, 2012, 02:50 PM
good point.

I would appreciate it if you didn't change my words when you quote me.

DTphonehome
Apr 26, 2012, 02:51 PM
I've seen this a few weeks ago in Washington, and they seem to run a modified version of iOS without Safari, settings, notifications and other similar default apps.

Wish they would enable that version for people who buy iPads for their kids. I'm constantly undoing the havoc my kids wreak on their iPads.

*LTD*
Apr 26, 2012, 02:52 PM
Smart move. Truly a device for everyone. From high-powered CEO to Joe Amateur Photog, to grandma, to kids.

It's all about greater empowerment. Take the "computer" and make it something more personal, intimate, that fits nearly into your hands and is fully mobile.

And hey, get kids to connect with the iPad, do "all the little things" like the subject of this article. Watch iPad market share balloon.

Apple understands the market like it's nobody's business.

Konrad
Apr 26, 2012, 02:53 PM
My 5 year old runs the iPad and the iPhone without much problem and much excitement, but he goes really wild happy each time he goes skydiving.

clarkie604
Apr 26, 2012, 02:54 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

I'm not sure that IT should = coding. I think there are a lot of skills in the IT category that have more general applicability and would be of more general use than coding (i.e., word processing and office applications). Is a knowledge of coding useful to the rest of us who don't end up coding for a living? I'm not sure -- I'm not being sarcastic, I'm actually not sure.

ftaok
Apr 26, 2012, 02:55 PM
I think the concern here is the potential creation of a generation of media consumers who barely know how to read, write, solve equations, etc... With parents who use their iDevices as mere babysitting tools with all the games available on iOS, it certainly seems like a valid concern.

Kids have always had things to distract them from studies. Right now, it just happens to iPads.

Previous distractions for earlier generations:

XBox
Nintendo
Walkman
Atari
Comic Books
Rock 'n Roll
Dancing

vrDrew
Apr 26, 2012, 02:55 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications.

This may surprise you, but not every kid is that interested in being an IT geek when they grow up.

Word processing and office applications? What possible interest would little kids have in doing that? I can think of few things more likely to turn a small child off of using technology than sitting him down and asking him to format a table in Pages, or build a spreadsheet to keep track of his allowance.

Let kids be kids. Play silly games, draw pictures with their fingers, bang out tunes. They've got the rest of their lives to balance budgets and write client proposals.

On another note: Apple spends $500 buying chairs for kids to sit on in their stores. Children don't technically make the purchase decisions in most households. But somehow I think the subconscious pleasure they got resting their little rear-ends in those fancy chairs will telegraph itself into the message their parents get: "Apple stuff is really cool!" (or whatever term six year olds use these days.)

clarkie604
Apr 26, 2012, 02:56 PM
Pretty telling that they want the next generation learning iOS instead of OS X. I do think kids will like it better.

My three year old twins run the iPad easily. Crazy thing is, we put them in front of the computer the other day and they couldn't figure out the mouse. I'm sure my older kids had the mouse down pat by the twins' age.

Kilamite
Apr 26, 2012, 02:57 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

Bit extreme.

They are there to occupy the kids while the adults are in the store. What better way than games on the iPad.

You really think that kids before sat and coded on an iMac? They played games on those too..

Boisv
Apr 26, 2012, 02:58 PM
You obviously don't have kids.

Are you joking? I hope you're joking.

ftaok
Apr 26, 2012, 03:01 PM
Are you joking? I hope you're joking.

I think he's referring to the notion that kids can easily figure out the iPad without the ability to read. The iPad interface is so simple that even a non-reading 2 year old can figure out where Angry Bird is and how to push the big button that starts the game.

Scarpad
Apr 26, 2012, 03:02 PM
The Dumbing Down of Society continues


A Computer User (Going back to 8 bit days)

Boisv
Apr 26, 2012, 03:04 PM
Reread my post. I specifically mentioned parents who use iDevices as a babysitting tool rather than being involved with what their kids are using. And that could very well be a concern.

Reread your post? With comics, TV, and video games there was also the concern that parents would use the as a babysitting tool rather than being involved with what their kids are using. There will always be some bad parents, but things turned out just fine.

As to your examples: Watch the episode of that Rehab show with the 25 year old guy who has a videogame addiction. The guy would be completely unable to survive if his family wasn't taking care of him. I'm not saying that such a result is inevitable, I'm saying that it is a valid concern.

So you found one extreme case? So what? One case doesn't make this a valid concern. A person can become addicted to shopping. Should we stop taking kids to the mall?

NY Guitarist
Apr 26, 2012, 03:04 PM
I wonder if they will have screen protectors and hand wipes.

Not trying to dramatize this point, but when I go into an Apple store and look at iPhones or iPads they look disgusting with oily finger smears. And that is the area where adults demo them.

I love that Apple lets kids get hands-on time with iPads, but can you imagine what winds up on those screens? And kids have a (natural) habit of putting fingers in their mouths or rubbing their eyes, picking noses... Yuck.

Although maybe it's no different than what gets on a keyboard, just easier to see the crud on them. But iPads screens are easier to clean than keyboards.

Jeez, maybe I'll skip lunch today.

sweetbrat
Apr 26, 2012, 03:04 PM
I always assumed that the kids' area at the Apple Store had two basic functions:
1. Occupy the kids while Mom/Dad are shopping.
2. Let the kids experience Apple products so they ask Mom/Dad to buy them.

So in this case, you WANT the iPad to basically be a babysitter for your child. And realistically, it makes much more sense to have iPads available to the kids than iMacs. iPads are easier to use, even for the youngest kids. It opens up the experience of playing around at the Apple Store to younger kids than the iMacs likely would have reached. It's good marketing, and it helps the parents out. I don't see what there is to complain about, besides that there's some nostalgia involved with the iMacs.

Kid A
Apr 26, 2012, 03:05 PM
kids table should have both IMO.
2:1 or 3:1 ratio of iPads to iMacs.

Eriden
Apr 26, 2012, 03:06 PM
iPad improves student grades:
http://www.hmheducation.com/fuse/pilot-1.php

In a previous thread post, I mentioned that my 5 year old has learned to read using my iPad. Im not saying that they can't be used in a good way. Like most things related to children, it depends on the involvement level and priorities of the parents.

SPNarwhal
Apr 26, 2012, 03:06 PM
Image (http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/04/newkidstable.jpg)





What is an "Enfant"?

clarkie604
Apr 26, 2012, 03:06 PM
That table needs more to it. Like a colorful sign or something.

Right now it looks bland, and not very kid-attracting.

I guarantee that a kid-size table with iPads on it will attract my kids -- no colorful sign needed.

sweetbrat
Apr 26, 2012, 03:07 PM
The Dumbing Down of Society continues


A Computer User (Going back to 8 bit days)

Can you explain how making iPads available for little kids to play with contributed to the "dumbing down of society" as you put it? I'm honestly curious. I would think the way a parent teaches their children at home would have a much greater effect than having iPads available for the few minutes they're in the Apple Store.

Eriden
Apr 26, 2012, 03:07 PM
So you found one extreme case? So what? One case doesn't make this a valid concern. A person can become addicted to shopping. Should we stop taking kids to the mall?

If a person spends the money they should be spending on rent on sales or hoarding crap, then perhaps that person shouldn't be shopping. And yeah, giving kids unfettered access to finances in a shopping environment is probably not a good idea. Paris Hilton - case in point.

Christ, some Apple fans are to Apple as the Phelps children are to Westboro Baptist Church.

Peace
Apr 26, 2012, 03:08 PM
What is an "Enfant"?

It's French for child.

Eriden
Apr 26, 2012, 03:11 PM
I think he's referring to the notion that kids can easily figure out the iPad without the ability to read. The iPad interface is so simple that even a non-reading 2 year old can figure out where Angry Bird is and how to push the big button that starts the game.

+1 for common sense and intelligence.

mixel
Apr 26, 2012, 03:13 PM
My 4(just!) year old daughter has no problems with mice or touch controls. The iPad is definitely a good choice for the kids section. The hands-on nature of the device and the absolutely INSANE amount of high quality children's content, some of which is very creative and educational, gives a better impression than an iMac could, I think.

I know my daughter, and I expect most kids in general would be more likely to use the iPads than a full blown iMac in those surroundings.

anthonymoody
Apr 26, 2012, 03:14 PM
Wait til they actually replace iMacs with iPads.

I'm a believer obviously (see my signature...) but this move doesn't surprise me at all.

kingtj
Apr 26, 2012, 03:14 PM
I'm 40 myself, and I remember learning BASIC programming in high-school, on Apple //e machines in the computer lab (plus a summer computer class I took one time, before that, with the Apple and Atari computers in the local library branch, where I first played "Oregon Trail").

Sure, things are changing and moving away from that type of learning experience for kids -- but I disagree that it's a bad thing.

The kids using iPads aren't simply "consuming videos and pictures". They've got MANY good educational software titles on them that teach them to read, spell, work math problems, and all the other stuff kids used to do on a desktop computer.

The only real difference is they're not using a keyboard and mouse as their input device, and especially for the little kids? I think that's more of a benefit than anything else. There's really nothing natural about using a mouse. It only feels like it to all of us who already got used to it on a PC or Mac over the years. But kids naturally want to touch and manipulate what they see on the screen. (Ever see little kids trying to reach out and touch characters they're watching on TV?)

Learning to code is a whole different matter. I don't want to see that option go away, but that was never really a focus of the "kids' section" of an Apple store in the first place. I think programming requires either an instructor's guidance through the process or a desire to be self-taught and work through it on your own. Nothing meaningful wouldl get accomplished in the short time a kid would be in an Apple retail store sitting at one of these desks.... However, they *might* find a good educational title they enjoy on one of the iPads, causing their parents to purchase it on their own iPad after they get home.


Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

Boisv
Apr 26, 2012, 03:14 PM
I think he's referring to the notion that kids can easily figure out the iPad without the ability to read. The iPad interface is so simple that even a non-reading 2 year old can figure out where Angry Bird is and how to push the big button that starts the game.

That's a good point, although I think there's a difference. Does she really understand how the iPad works or is she just repeating what she's seen? But really, I was reacting more to Eriden's silly assumption that I must not have kids. I have a six year old daughter.

However, two points...

1. The iPad is probably the best tool I've had for getting my six year old daughter to read. I'm so glad I bought one. She reads everything on it.

2. She only knows where Angry Birds is because you showed her. She knows how to start the game because you showed her. I don't mean to belittle your daughter when I say this, and so I'll include my own daughter in this too: even a monkey can be taught that. That isn't the same as actually knowing how something works and figuring it out on your own. My daughter was also opening angry birds on my iPad Touch when she was 2, but I wouldn't say that she actually knew how to use the iPod Touch. She just remembered one series of commands. Likewise, my grandfather knows where to open solitaire, but I wouldn't say he really understands how to use a computer.

I mean heck, I knew how to drive by age, what... 4? The pedals make the car go and stop, and the big wheel stears. But that isn't the same as actually knowing how to drive.

If you give an iPad to someone who has never used one, they're going to need to know how to at least read what the app names are, and basic instructions. If not, they might have (at most) memorized a series of commands and locations, but the second there is any sort of snag or interruption, they're lost. A message pops up and they're lost.

griz
Apr 26, 2012, 03:15 PM
A natural extension of the "Post PC" Era. These kids will be the first to grow up as a post PC generation.

Boisv
Apr 26, 2012, 03:16 PM
And yeah, giving kids unfettered access to finances in a shopping environment is probably not a good idea.

Who is talking about that? Are we having the same conversation?

Drunken Master
Apr 26, 2012, 03:18 PM
My three year old twins run the iPad easily. Crazy thing is, we put them in front of the computer the other day and they couldn't figure out the mouse. I'm sure my older kids had the mouse down pat by the twins' age.

Maybe they just need to see you use it?

My friend's 1.5-year-old reached for the mouse and started moving it and clicking the very first time his dad put him on his lap at the computer. I guess he had been watching.

Boisv
Apr 26, 2012, 03:20 PM
Maybe they just need to see you use it?

My friend's 1.5-year-old reached for the mouse and started moving it and clicking the very first time his dad put him on his lap at the computer. I guess he had been watching.

I love watching kids figure out computers.

NY Guitarist
Apr 26, 2012, 03:22 PM
A natural extension of the "Post PC" Era. These kids will be the first to grow up as a post PC generation.

I agree. The writing is on the wall... err... iPad. It's up the the individual to read it, but this is where computers are heading. Not completely, but simplified computing devices, IMO, will be the majority of sales from now on.

Naaaaak
Apr 26, 2012, 03:22 PM
Ruh-roh. Hopefully not some harbinger of the demise of iMacs and Macs in general......

To see Apple's cares you need only look at the MacRumors Buyer's Guide.

See the iPhone / iPad section? If one of those dots is ever colored red for more than a month, heads will roll. Remember the original white iPhone? Touch and mobile is an area of huge growth and hence their core focus. iPod should really be in its own section (it does not drive growth like it used to, thus they don't care to update it often).

They are somewhat concerned about portables because laptop growth has outpaced desktop growth for many moons now, so it's worth their effort to focus on. The MacBook Air gives them a leadership position in the laptop space and they don't want to give that up.

But desktops? What an annoyance to Apple. It's not an area of explosive growth and it's not an area where they really lead anything. Maybe the iMac did at one point. The Mac Mini is an interesting niche (perhaps call it a "hobby"). But the Mac Pro? 639 days and counting without an update or even announcement of one. That has to be the most neglected, red-headed step child, bitch-slapped product Apple has ever sold (besides MobileMe).

The only reason Apple has to care about desktops is that they still turn a profit for the company. But they would rather have you buy a device in a growing area to give them marketshare, mindshare, *and* profitability. Bonus points if they sell you an iOS device (since they get even more lock-in).

Focusing on growth means Apple can define a market. Profitability is a side effect of their focus in growth markets. Apple would rather spend effort convincing the desktop crowd they don't need desktops anymore rather than updating them and trying to make it a growth segment (see also: the last 10 years).

guzhogi
Apr 26, 2012, 03:23 PM
I think the concern here is the potential creation of a generation of media consumers who barely know how to read, write, solve equations, etc... With parents who use their iDevices as mere babysitting tools with all the games available on iOS, it certainly seems like a valid concern.

I agree; I work in IT in a school. The kids can barely even hand write notes. Sure, some 8th graders are doing geometry stuff I didn't do until my sophomore year in high school. But I'd be seriously surprised if they could even do basic arithmetic without a calculator.

I just spoke to one of the custodians I work with and he said that on cloudy days, his daughter would say that she's bored. I guess she has 3 rooms dedicated to her toys and stuff and she's bored?!? Kids today are so spoiled.

While I don't mind the use of technology to augment your life, it shouldn't be a replacement.

[/rant]

OliverOSX93
Apr 26, 2012, 03:23 PM
This is news worthy? Rolls eyes

Did your mum not teach you any manners?

If you have nothing nice to say its better to not say anything at all.

Boisv
Apr 26, 2012, 03:24 PM
To see Apple's cares you need only look at the MacRumors Buyer's Guide.

See the iPhone / iPad section? If one of those dots is ever colored red for more than a month, heads will roll. Remember the original white iPhone? Touch and mobile is an area of huge growth and hence their core focus. iPod should really be in its own section (it does not drive growth like it used to, thus they don't care to update it often).

They are somewhat concerned about portables because laptop growth has outpaced desktop growth for many moons now, so it's worth their effort to focus on. The MacBook Air gives them a leadership position in the laptop space and they don't want to give that up.

But desktops? What an annoyance to Apple. It's not an area of explosive growth and it's not an area where they really lead anything. Maybe the iMac did at one point. The Mac Mini is an interesting niche (perhaps call it a "hobby"). But the Mac Pro? 639 days and counting without an update or even announcement of one. That has to be the most neglected, red-headed step child, bitch-slapped product Apple has ever sold (besides MobileMe).

The only reason Apple has to care about desktops is that they still turn a profit for the company. But they would rather have you buy a device in a growing area to give them marketshare, mindshare, *and* profitability. Bonus points if they sell you an iOS device (since they get even more lock-in).

Focusing on growth means Apple can define a market. Profitability is a side effect of their focus in growth markets. Apple would rather spend effort convincing the desktop crowd they don't need desktops anymore rather than updating them and trying to make it a growth segment (see also: the last 10 years).

How ironic is it that Apple is finally gaining significant PC market share, and they no longer care for it? :p

mixel
Apr 26, 2012, 03:27 PM
2. She only knows where Angry Birds is because you showed her. She knows how to start the game because you showed her. I don't mean to belittle your daughter when I say this, and so I'll include my own daughter in this too: even a monkey can be taught that. That isn't the same as actually knowing how something works and figuring it out on your own. My daughter was also opening angry birds on my iPad Touch when she was 2, but I wouldn't say that she actually knew how to use the iPod Touch. She just remembered one series of commands. Likewise, my grandfather knows where to open solitaire, but I wouldn't say he really understands how to use a computer.

My daughter was opening things she thought looked interesting and interacting with them at two. If your idevice is tidy-ish then they do learn this stuff themselves. My daughter looks through folders to see if I've added any new apps.. She's 4 this week. She's not just doing stuff I've shown her. I think a lot of kids can instantly see a pretty picture (say the butterfly icon for "Paint My Wings") their curiosity will get them pressing it, and if the iPad has the right apps on, it really doesn't need any reading comprehension at all.

It's just up to the Apple stores to make sure they've got appropriate apps.

Boisv
Apr 26, 2012, 03:31 PM
I agree; I work in IT in a school. The kids can barely even hand write notes. Sure, some 8th graders are doing geometry stuff I didn't do until my sophomore year in high school. But I'd be seriously surprised if they could even do basic arithmetic without a calculator.

I just spoke to one of the custodians I work with and he said that on cloudy days, his daughter would say that she's bored. I guess she has 3 rooms dedicated to her toys and stuff and she's bored?!? Kids today are so spoiled.

While I don't mind the use of technology to augment your life, it shouldn't be a replacement.

[/rant]

I think the much larger culprit here is texting, not PCs or tablets. Kids today communicate without the need for proper english or actual face-to-face communication. There was even a joke on Community recently about someone being born in the 80s and therefore they still use their phone to make calls. I have two high school english teachers in the family, and I constantly hear about kids handing in papers with text speak.

Peace
Apr 26, 2012, 03:31 PM
How ironic is it that Apple is finally gaining significant PC market share, and they no longer care for it? :p

I wouldn't say they no longer care for it. For all we know Apple may be redoing the whole Mac line-up. I believe there was a story on this a while back too.

Ratatapa
Apr 26, 2012, 03:31 PM
They are late in Laval (québec) iPads been there for about 1 months instead of iMac

ftaok
Apr 26, 2012, 03:32 PM
That's a good point, although I think there's a difference. Does she really understand how the iPad works or is she just repeating what she's seen? But really, I was reacting more to Eriden's silly assumption that I must not have kids. I have a six year old daughter.I can't get into Eriden's head, but I don't think he was intending to be rude. I read it more as a jokey way of saying that your perception of a kid's ability to just figure stuff out trumps the ability to read. At least that's how I read it.

2. She only knows where Angry Birds is because you showed her. She knows how to start the game because you showed her. I don't mean to belittle your daughter when I say this, and so I'll include my own daughter in this too: even a monkey can be taught that. That isn't the same as actually knowing how something works and figuring it out on your own. Fair enough. But does anyone really know how to use anything unless they've been taught/shown the fundamentals? Hey, both of my older kids (4 and 6) can go into the Apple store, pick up an iPod touch, swipe around to find Angry Birds, and play it. They were able to do this two years ago, before they could read. Yeah, they must have seen me playing on the iPods/iPads before, but they quickly recognized what the various gestures did, what the angry bird icon looks like, and what the Play button looks like.

Anyways, I forgot my point, so I'll shut up for now.

I mean heck, I knew how to drive by age, what... 4? The pedals make the car go and stop, and the big wheel stears. But that isn't the same as actually knowing how to drive.This was never about knowing how to use the iPad. Just knowing how to operate it. The bottom line, a young kid can operate an iPad without knowing how to read.

If you give an iPad to someone who has never used one, they're going to need to know how to at least read what the app names are, and basic instructions. If not, they might have (at most) memorized a series of commands and locations, but the second there is any sort of snag or interruption, they're lost. A message pops up and they're lost.I have to agree with you on this one. But the scope of this thread is about kids using iPads at the store. They'll have a much easier time using the iPad by themselves than using the iMacs.

guzhogi
Apr 26, 2012, 03:36 PM
To see Apple's cares you need only look at the MacRumors Buyer's Guide.

See the iPhone / iPad section? If one of those dots is ever colored red for more than a month, heads will roll. Remember the original white iPhone? Touch and mobile is an area of huge growth and hence their core focus. iPod should really be in its own section (it does not drive growth like it used to, thus they don't care to update it often).

They are somewhat concerned about portables because laptop growth has outpaced desktop growth for many moons now, so it's worth their effort to focus on. The MacBook Air gives them a leadership position in the laptop space and they don't want to give that up.

But desktops? What an annoyance to Apple. It's not an area of explosive growth and it's not an area where they really lead anything. Maybe the iMac did at one point. The Mac Mini is an interesting niche (perhaps call it a "hobby"). But the Mac Pro? 639 days and counting without an update or even announcement of one. That has to be the most neglected, red-headed step child, bitch-slapped product Apple has ever sold (besides MobileMe).

The only reason Apple has to care about desktops is that they still turn a profit for the company. But they would rather have you buy a device in a growing area to give them marketshare, mindshare, *and* profitability. Bonus points if they sell you an iOS device (since they get even more lock-in).

Focusing on growth means Apple can define a market. Profitability is a side effect of their focus in growth markets. Apple would rather spend effort convincing the desktop crowd they don't need desktops anymore rather than updating them and trying to make it a growth segment (see also: the last 10 years).

I agree. It frustrates me how so many people & corporations now (although corporations are "people" now) seem to only care about maximizing profit and seeing that as the only indicator of success.

As I said, I work in IT in a school. In my district, we have probably close to 1,000 Macs, 4,000 kids and staff members. While iPads do make the kids more interested in stuff, what about all the backend, infrastructure stuff like servers? We still have a bunch of xServes that do our web server and Open Directory stuff. This summer, we're switching to Active Directory, which is going to be a real pain in the a$$ to migrate to and manage. And unfortunately, we don't have enough room to just go with a bunch of Mac Pros or even Mac Minis.

And if iOS is really the future of Apple & computing, where's xCode for the iPad?

I apologize for ranting, but I'm just tired of the whole "Money is the only thing that's important" and "Oh, you're a minority? We don't care about you" mentalities.

GREEN4U
Apr 26, 2012, 03:38 PM
I didn't know kids looked at porn...

d0vr
Apr 26, 2012, 03:39 PM
I think Apple is trying to tell us something.

jroadley
Apr 26, 2012, 03:39 PM
My son (4) uses my iPad 2 - doesn't go near the iMac - touch is the future.

alanyuan
Apr 26, 2012, 03:43 PM
Instead of stealing their ipads, i'm going to steal their chairs instead! You serious? 500 dollars for a chair??

Boisv
Apr 26, 2012, 03:44 PM
My daughter was opening things she thought looked interesting and interacting with them at two. If your idevice is tidy-ish then they do learn this stuff themselves. My daughter looks through folders to see if I've added any new apps.. She's 4 this week. She's not just doing stuff I've shown her. I think a lot of kids can instantly see a pretty picture (say the butterfly icon for "Paint My Wings") their curiosity will get them pressing it, and if the iPad has the right apps on, it really doesn't need any reading comprehension at all.

It's just up to the Apple stores to make sure they've got appropriate apps.

Oh they do explore. I agree there. But that's not really the same thing. That's not the same as saying they really have a firm grip on how to use the thing. I think that comes with the ability to read, and it also helps to grow their ability to read. My daughter is now discovering so much more about the iPad. She figured out that the folder with Angry Birds says "games" and so now that action makes sense to her. She realized that all of her apps are in a folder with her name on it. When a notification comes up, she's no longer confused. Instead she tells me what it is. Now those actions have meaning for her, instead of being memorized actions. Now she understand how the whole thing is laid out and why.

Tonight, try asking your daughter to open iTunes and find a certain album and play it. Ask her to go into your settings app and turn off wi-fi. Ask her to bring up a webpage. One still needs to be able to read to really know how to use the thing. I'm not talking about curiosity and simple tasks.

We all know that kids can do certain things in iPads. No one's arguing that. Again, a monkey can notice that an app wasn't there a minute ago and is there now. What we're discussing is simply a difference in defining when someone truly "knows how to use a computer." Everyone I know can play either chopsticks or the Jaws theme on a piano, but that doesn't make someone a pianist.

chilly willy
Apr 26, 2012, 03:45 PM
I absolutely agree that in the future, tablet and touch devices will rule for most activities. I also see value in Apple using iPads for kids b/c accessible etc.

I just think writing off desktops and laptops as "not the future" overlooks their use for a lot of "heavier" uses (word processing, programming, etc..) They may be a small portion of overall "computer device" sales, but not insignificant nor unimportant. I analogize to heavy duty trucks. Most drivers in US do not need them, but some do for certain tasks, and thus companies sell them (at a profit). More profit in other lines, but not serving a segment of the overall computer market seems shortsighted and I am worried a lot that Apple is hellbent on iPads and iPhones, and see only MBA as future computer that anyone will need. Guess we'll see......after all, my first Pc was an IBM that weighed more than all my computer equipment combined now!:D

MysticTim
Apr 26, 2012, 03:46 PM
Focusing on growth means Apple can define a market. Profitability is a side effect of their focus in growth markets. Apple would rather spend effort convincing the desktop crowd they don't need desktops anymore rather than updating them and trying to make it a growth segment (see also: the last 10 years).


I'm sorry but I can't accept this mentality yet. I know this is somewhat dated but I feel it is still relevant:

Apple Mac Sales Could Sustain a Fortune 500 Company by Itself (http://www.tuaw.com/2010/10/20/apple-mac-sales-could-sustain-a-fortune-500-company-by-itself)

When we see a slowdown with Mac OSX development, and I think this upcoming WWDC (https://developer.apple.com/wwdc/about/) still shows a commitment to OSX, then I'll begin to truly worry.

appsforkids
Apr 26, 2012, 03:49 PM
That was a great move, for kids the iPad is the ultimate toy.

d0vr
Apr 26, 2012, 03:50 PM
How ironic is it that Apple is finally gaining significant PC market share, and they no longer care for it? :p

Sounds like girls. You work really hard for one, but they only are interested when you found another girl who is prettier.

albertsw
Apr 26, 2012, 03:51 PM
its been like this for months at the 14th street store in NYC.

Boisv
Apr 26, 2012, 03:53 PM
I can't get into Eriden's head, but I don't think he was intending to be rude. I read it more as a jokey way of saying that your perception of a kid's ability to just figure stuff out trumps the ability to read. At least that's how I read it.

I don't think he intended to be rude either. I think this whole thread is taking my comment way out of context. I think your post here actually put it back into context, so thanks.

Fair enough. But does anyone really know how to use anything unless they've been taught/shown the fundamentals?.

No, and that is why everyone starts off using computers that way. But once a person can read, we can start teaching ourselves. We can sit down at the computer and figure it all out on our own. That is where I believe a person starts to really know how to use a computer, for more than some memorized commands and icons. Our kids can only find Angry Birds because they were shown.

This was never about knowing how to use the iPad. Just knowing how to operate it. The bottom line, a young kid can operate an iPad without knowing how to read.

I'm the one who made the comment, so I can honestly say that I was talking about knowing how to use and understand the iPad, not just operate it. A kid can operate an iPad and find Angry Birds without really knowing what they're doing. Again, a kid can drive a car without a single driving lesson. That doesn't mean he knows what he's doing behind the wheel.

They'll have a much easier time using the iPad by themselves than using the iMacs.

Oh I totally agree there. iPads are far more kid friendly than Macs. That's why I started my daughter out on it, because she can operate it without being able to read. I just don't fool myself into thinking that she now knows how to operate a computer just because she can find Angry Birds or notice a new app.

People took my comment so far out of context. I said it because someone was arguing that computers in the classroom and in kid's lives would hurt their ability to read and write. What I'm saying is that it will do the opposite, it will make sure that they can read and write. I wasn't talking about finding Angry Birds, and yet now that has somehow become the litmus test for computer literacy. I'm talking about using iTunes, writing a term paper, using email, browsing the web, doing any sort of work, and doing all the things that adults (and young adults) use computers for. When your kid is 10, if she can't read she'll still be finding Angry Birds and no one will be impressed.

So basically, I'm talking about using a computer to actually do things, not throw birds and pigs. Computers won't replace the necesity for literacy. It will enhance it.

jj48
Apr 26, 2012, 03:53 PM
That was a great move, for kids the iPad is the ultimate toy.

Agreed. This move was such a no-brainer I'm surprised they hadn't done it already. The interaction between a tablet and the user is so much more natural than mouse + keyboard interfaces, especially for kids.

Jessica Lares
Apr 26, 2012, 03:54 PM
The two Apple Stores here haven't had a kid section for many years now. It's just tables with products on display and then the Genius Bar. It's not something that makes sense in really crowded stores even if it's welcoming to their customers. It's a electronics store, not a cafe.

And yeah... Being someone who was raised on MS-DOS/BASIC/Windows 3.1/MacOS I have no desire in IT in general. I don't think learning how to code at a young age is necessary. It's about teaching kids how to use the technology to do stuff other than hacking/downloading/watching videos. I learnt how to read and write on these machines, but I also spent most of my time on things like MacPaint/KidPix/MS Paint and grew up using technology for creative things. And to this day I don't use the computer for anything more than just creative work and writing. YouTube is boring, I don't know how people spend hours on it.

DPinTX
Apr 26, 2012, 03:54 PM
I was at my locale apple store on Monday waiting for my laptop and wanted to check something on the web. I picked one these up form the table and tried to find the browser and could not find it, went in to the system and there was no option for it there either, it like is never existed on the iPad.

DP

lordofthereef
Apr 26, 2012, 04:00 PM
I'm pretty sure kids who want an IT education won't be stopped by the iPad.

I'm pretty sure you missed the point.

Boisv
Apr 26, 2012, 04:04 PM
Sounds like girls. You work really hard for one, but they only are interested when you found another girl who is prettier.

So true! They never seem to want you until you don't want them.

mixel
Apr 26, 2012, 04:05 PM
Tonight, try asking your daughter to open iTunes and find a certain album and play it. Ask her to go into your settings app and turn off wi-fi. Ask her to bring up a webpage. One still needs to be able to read to really know how to use the thing. I'm not talking about curiosity and simple tasks.

We all know that kids can do certain things in iPads. No one's arguing that. Again, a monkey can notice that an app wasn't there a minute ago and is there now. What we're discussing is simply a difference in defining when someone truly "knows how to use a computer." Everyone I know can play either chopsticks or the Jaws theme on a piano, but that doesn't make someone a pianist.
I think that's down to terminology though, my daughter does know how to get into itunes and play specific albums (based on their cover art)/make videos play but I've never explained it to her like that as "itunes" is a totally alien concept to her. I could probably say "watch Pocoyo episode 4" if it was on her iPod.. She doesn't need to be able to operate settings and so on, nor would any kids her age. I have middle-aged friends who'd call me up to ask how to do a really rudimentary settings change rather than work it out themselves, so it's not just experience based.

Some of the most intellectual and well read people I know seem pretty apprehensive of doing things wrong and essentially cant use computers/electronic devices well (by my definition anyway) as they're afraid of experimentation. They only do things once they've been taught. I find it pretty frustrating sometimes. Their knowledge still gets them by on the web/iphoto/word etc, but anything more complex and they cant get through. I think our kids are better off than them, even the ones who can't necessarily read yet. :) I just want to nurture that experimental side.

I'm not disagreeing by the way it's just an interesting topic. Where do you draw the line at "can use the device"? My girl can use it for all the things she'd need to use it for, learnt in a similar way to how I did. She'll understand it a lot better once she can read, she learnt to read "play", "help", "Hungry" (kinenctimals, haha) from totally non-educational games on her iPod. If it wasn't for the iTunes security she'd have bought a load of games from the store too. (she understands how that works but has no concept of currency or value yet)

Boisv
Apr 26, 2012, 04:06 PM
I was at my locale apple store on Monday waiting for my laptop and wanted to check something on the web. I picked one these up form the table and tried to find the browser and could not find it, went in to the system and there was no option for it there either, it like is never existed on the iPad.

DP

That's smart. The second some goon brought up some porn and someone's kid found it, they could get sued. It might sound dumb, but about a month ago there was a story on here about some lady in her 80s who walked into their class door and is suing Apple for an absurd amount of money.

Apple is taking no chances and I can't blame them.

ericinboston
Apr 26, 2012, 04:06 PM
My just-turned-2 year old loves the iPad...but I have to say, there are VERY FEW quality educational games for kids under 5.

We own 4 I think. I've scoured for hours (the iTunes app store is horrible to find/browse kids stuff).

Apple's really missing the boat here...if they spent a little time making it easier to find kids educational stuff (not games!), the iPad sales would exploding even more. Of course I think there are simply very few kids educational apps out there. I've gladly handed over $5 per app...if I were an app developer I would seriously consider the kids market of EDUCATIONAL apps...math, reading, spelling, puzzles, logic, flashcards, vocabulary, 2nd languages, etc.

Anyone remember Fraction Factory from the early 80's on the //e? I LOVED that interface and interaction!...it was purchased for my younger sisters.

Boisv
Apr 26, 2012, 04:11 PM
I think our kids are better off than them, even the ones who can't necessarily read yet. :) I just want to nurture that experimental side.

I agree. iPads are so wonderful for young children. And they probably are the future of computing.

I get what you're saying. It's just that when I said one had to read to use a computer, I didn't mean simple things like Angry Birds. I was talking about web browsing, Microsoft Office, etc. I said it in response to someone's assertion that computers in the classroom would foster illiteracy. But you do want to get them started young. Get them to memorize commands and icons, to learn that touching this opens that. That's how it all starts.

One should never use technology as a babysitter of course, but as a learning tool they're incredibly powerful.

righteye
Apr 26, 2012, 04:14 PM
This is a good move in some respects, but IMO Apple is once again forcing change too soon.

It makes sense to have iPads at the kids table. Kids take to iPads very easily, and tablets are the future of the home PC. But it isn't certain yet that tablets are the future of the workplace PC. I think it would benefit children to be exposed to both tablets and PCs.

My own daughter loves to use my iPad. At just 6 years old, she navigates it just fine. She knows where all of her apps are and how to use them. She navigates Netflix like a true American. :) But you'd better believe that I'm exposing her to more traditional PCs as well.

On a side note, my daughter started Kindergarden this year. I was delighted to see two eMacs in her classroom. I remember growing up in the 80s and 90s, we always used Apple computers in schoool. It's good to see some things haven't changed.

Would have been an interesting experiment to have two tables one with iMacs and one with iPads and see how the kids reacted to the two tables,
Apple may well have tried this out in secret somewhere anyway!
I do not own an iPad but friends/relatives do and the interesting thing also is that the "oldies" love to have a play with the Pad, seems to be much less intimidating than a "computer"

Psychj0e
Apr 26, 2012, 04:15 PM
Why would everybody learn how to code?
Do doctors have to know how to code?
Do cab drivers have to know how to code?
Etc.

Code is a good method of teaching kids logic... Of course, I can probably only see that because I know how to code.

Boisv
Apr 26, 2012, 04:24 PM
Would have been an interesting experiment to have two tables one with iMacs and one with iPads and see how the kids reacted to the two tables,
Apple may well have tried this out in secret somewhere anyway!
I do not own an iPad but friends/relatives do and the interesting thing also is that the "oldies" love to have a play with the Pad, seems to be much less intimidating than a "computer"

Very true, and that would be an intersting experiment.

ericinboston
Apr 26, 2012, 04:45 PM
Code is a good method of teaching kids logic... Of course, I can probably only see that because I know how to code.

I agree...learning to code (Basic is perfect) is just a valuable skill to have. You don't have to master BASIC like I did in the early 80s...but understanding the LOGIC of If...Then, GOTO, variable definitions, etc. Sure, 3 year olds won't get it, but a 12 year old SHOULD. If the kid doesn't understand it then it's likely they won't do well in mathematics...no big deal. But learning to UNDERSTAND logic at 10-14 years of age instead of waiting for 11th grade math courses or college Logic courses is so valuable in my opinion.

I used to program night and day while I was a kid and in college. Understanding how programming/logic works has a huge huge huge impact on my overall business life as a Software PreSales person. Of course, I could have just been gifted in logic in the first place and learning Basic was just a natural for me...that I didn't really "learn" logic but rather experienced it through code.

mixel
Apr 26, 2012, 04:46 PM
My just-turned-2 year old loves the iPad...but I have to say, there are VERY FEW quality educational games for kids under 5.

We own 4 I think. I've scoured for hours (the iTunes app store is horrible to find/browse kids stuff).

Apple's really missing the boat here...if they spent a little time making it easier to find kids educational stuff (not games!), the iPad sales would exploding even more. Of course I think there are simply very few kids educational apps out there. I've gladly handed over $5 per app...if I were an app developer I would seriously consider the kids market of EDUCATIONAL apps...math, reading, spelling, puzzles, logic, flashcards, vocabulary, 2nd languages, etc.

Anyone remember Fraction Factory from the early 80's on the //e? I LOVED that interface and interaction!...it was purchased for my younger sisters.
They learn a lot from play at this age, and there are a lot of games (like most of Toca Boca's titles) which have some educational value but are more fun than education. It does seem odd that there are so many apps for babies and toddlers, but once things get a bit more complex there are less and less apps. I guess "puzzles and logic" can be covered by more traditional games. I'm happy when my daughter plays most games anyway. Most of her edu slanted stuff is geared toward creativity.

As for pure education at that age the TeachMe games are nice, and my daughter likes abc PocketPhonics (teaches writing too!) There are tons of flashcard apps, "ABA flash cards" series are free i think. I wish iTunes had a better interface and more dynamic categories for sub-sections within educational apps too.

donga
Apr 26, 2012, 04:48 PM
yeah i saw this the last time i was in the store, it's pretty cool.

I played some nba jam, and saw some of the other kids-oriented apps, and they were very, very nice.

one thing, there was no safari. maybe they didn't want kids/adults getting on to certain sites at the kids station......

Santabean2000
Apr 26, 2012, 04:51 PM
No surprise, since Apple has been going to kiddie toys for years.

'iToys' are becoming more and more capable and will soon (if not already) replace the PC needs for many.

Going forward, you're going to be more likely using an iPad over a PC in schools and in (many, but not all - read strictly high end) workplaces too.

Connected mobility is the new 'power' in IT. Most people's CPU needs have been surpassed for a looong time. (And no, don't be offended, if you're reading a geek site like this then you're probably not the 'typical user'.)

mixel
Apr 26, 2012, 04:52 PM
I get what you're saying. It's just that when I said one had to read to use a computer, I didn't mean simple things like Angry Birds. I was talking about web browsing, Microsoft Office, etc. I said it in response to someone's assertion that computers in the classroom would foster illiteracy. But you do want to get them started young. Get them to memorize commands and icons, to learn that touching this opens that. That's how it all starts.

Ah I see, I didn't quite catch where you were coming from. I totally agree, computers in the classroom shouldn't do anything to contribute to illiteracy. It's all down to the teaching and the curriculum. Tablets and computers done properly can only enrich people's education, I think.

Jessica Lares
Apr 26, 2012, 04:56 PM
My just-turned-2 year old loves the iPad...but I have to say, there are VERY FEW quality educational games for kids under 5.

We own 4 I think. I've scoured for hours (the iTunes app store is horrible to find/browse kids stuff).

Apple's really missing the boat here...if they spent a little time making it easier to find kids educational stuff (not games!), the iPad sales would exploding even more. Of course I think there are simply very few kids educational apps out there. I've gladly handed over $5 per app...if I were an app developer I would seriously consider the kids market of EDUCATIONAL apps...math, reading, spelling, puzzles, logic, flashcards, vocabulary, 2nd languages, etc.

Anyone remember Fraction Factory from the early 80's on the //e? I LOVED that interface and interaction!...it was purchased for my younger sisters.

I have the same issue too. The education software back in my day was so much better in the sense you could actually learn the curriculum you were being taught and get a better understanding of it. If only those companies would develop for mobile devices. :( I'm having a hard time finding anything for my brother to use that would grab his attention and be educational at the same time.

And yes, Toca Boca apps are great. No doubt about that.

maconservative
Apr 26, 2012, 05:00 PM
They have been doing this for a while now.

Dagless
Apr 26, 2012, 05:22 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

I kind of agree. When I was a kid I had access to "casual" systems like the Gameboy, NES, etc as well as an Amiga, Spectrum and later a PC. A lot of my friends were in the same situation.

I was the only one who preferred the Amiga and PC route because I could create on them. 20 years later I'm now a creative director at my own game studio and executive producer on some console games, and I lecture and mentor in the field too. And get nominated for GOTY awards and fail every time grumble mumble...
My friends with those "casual" (how I hate that word!) games still just play those games in their latest form. None of them had any drive or push to create instead of just consuming.

But hey there are countless examples of people who just played games in their childhoods, or played no games at all going on to do great things for gaming. This is just my little story of my own little experience.

But I totally agree that kids need devices they can create art, music, software, websites, videos on. The iPad can do those things but I'd rather give a creative child an iMac with Midi keyboard, Wacom and some great insurance.

GenesisST
Apr 26, 2012, 05:24 PM
sexy

You're on a sex offenders list somewhere, aren't you? :D

boyd1955
Apr 26, 2012, 05:40 PM
What's happening ? ... Is Apple going out of business ... That looks awful ... It just looks like they have no stock to put on the table
They need to sort that out now

jonnysods
Apr 26, 2012, 05:40 PM
Maybe it was because Greenpeace was squawking about too much power consumption using iMacs.

Nebulance
Apr 26, 2012, 05:42 PM
Why would everybody learn how to code?
Do doctors have to know how to code?
Do cab drivers have to know how to code?
Etc.

No, but to develop all the software that runs the hardware in the doctors and dentist offices and most other biological, chemical and phyical sciences -- not to mention the software that powers your iPhone and iPad -- it's very important. Or even the cool graphics you see on television (especially on sports programs) -- all stems from coding, databases, etc.

I may be biased because I write software every day to do various calculations, but it's true.

charlituna
Apr 26, 2012, 05:47 PM
Yeah I noticed this yesterday as I was getting my phone swapped out. No one was using them.

I noticed it at two stores here in la, one of them like three weeks ago.

But they were both full. Might have been cause it was after school so like dad picks up junior and stops at the Apple store on the way home.

lordofthereef
Apr 26, 2012, 05:50 PM
yeah i saw this the last time i was in the store, it's pretty cool.

I played some nba jam, and saw some of the other kids-oriented apps, and they were very, very nice.

one thing, there was no safari. maybe they didn't want kids/adults getting on to certain sites at the kids station......

Interesting. Were apps like mail, messages, etc. still present?

Bubba Satori
Apr 26, 2012, 05:54 PM
Tragic. :(

GSPice
Apr 26, 2012, 05:57 PM
I'm pretty sure you missed the point.

Um, no. It's interesting that after pages of discussion you'd say that.

campingsk8er
Apr 26, 2012, 06:00 PM
Um, this isn't new. This has been the case at the stores I have recently visited and those were about a couple weeks to a month ago. That was at Park City Mall in Lancaster, PA and the Apple Store in Grand Central Station

PhoneI
Apr 26, 2012, 06:23 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

Yep, because I use to see a lot of children coding on the old iMacs setup in the Apple Store.

bedifferent
Apr 26, 2012, 06:23 PM
Interesting. I've noticed a (general) anti-mobile trend occurring here and with those who want more power driven systems. Almost five years of iPhones, iPads and iOS dominating (and still dominating) Apple's market and thus online forums, I'm getting the sense there's a growing backlash towards consuming on these devices rather than instilling people to be creative, create and/or educate. Threads and comments seem to slowly appear that dislike Apple's lack of professional/educational product focus (such as iOS integration in OS X, yearly OS X updates seem rushed, MacBook's becoming smaller and less powerful for graphics and intensive work, lack of Mac Pro development, Pro-apps slowly fading, etc). Although txt books are new and hopefully will positively impact the education sect, however I wonder if over saturation of iDevices in the market will have a negative impact on Apple's future.

Just an observation, not my opinion, and I know many who think otherwise. :)

pimentoLoaf
Apr 26, 2012, 06:25 PM
I'm waiting for the kid who asks (loudly), "Mommie, are they gonna be bringin' out a 23" iPad with a stand and keyboard?" :D

faroZ06
Apr 26, 2012, 06:30 PM
Yeah I noticed this yesterday as I was getting my phone swapped out. No one was using them.

They should keep the iMacs to show them as educational computers. Little kids aren't going to need a portable computer.

Oh, and the iMac games are a lot better than the iPad ones.

Sabenth
Apr 26, 2012, 06:39 PM
Ruh-roh. Hopefully not some harbinger of the demise of iMacs and Macs in general......

Too late happening

macingman
Apr 26, 2012, 06:49 PM
When I was in the Apple store a good 3 or 4 months ago I remember noticing they replaced the iPads with the iMacs-not a new thing.

Kids playing with iPhones isn't going to harm their learning-as long as they go to school, they'll be fine.

colinwil
Apr 26, 2012, 07:08 PM
I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.


LOL I'm in my mid 50s and my IT education was learning how to do things like recursive descent expression analysis in PDP-8 machine language. I pity youngsters of today who spend their time word processing and using office applications. ;)

peteullo
Apr 26, 2012, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by Boisv
First off, doing almost anything on an iPad requires a basic ability to read.

You obviously don't have kids.


or an iPad.

MAC MAN JW
Apr 26, 2012, 07:13 PM
I Like the iMac's better:(

Music_Producer
Apr 26, 2012, 07:23 PM
They *are* iMacs.. just.. a lot smaller.. :p

I think the reason people that have a lot of angst regarding Apple promoting their mobile products so much as compared to their regular computers is..

When I got my first computer (a ZX Spectrum) I really *wanted* to program it, to push it to its limits. I purchased books on BASIC just so I could program circles and silly animations. In a sense, it gave me a great appreciation for programming and computers.

Similarly, when I bought my first synthesizer (a used Casio) I really had to go into tweaking it to make some usable sounds and that's how I learned synthesis, modeling, sampling, etc. The workstations you get nowadays are so easy to use.. just hit a few buttons and that's it.

The general consensus (imo) is that one would not appreciate programming/coding etc or the work that goes in an iPad displaying whatever it does, simply because one is so distracted and consumed by the media on it that they just don't care.

When something is hard to use, you actually use your brain to work with it. Things are a lot easier to use now, so most consumers take technology for granted. In a way we are creating a society of dumbed-down consumers (?)

Personally I feel as though mankind's innovative spirit died after the mid 1900s.. all we create now is things to entertain us, or make us lazier.. and nothing extraordinarily different.

milan03
Apr 26, 2012, 07:44 PM
Been replaced for the past 6 months in NYC stores...

smallnshort247
Apr 26, 2012, 07:56 PM
My store has been using them for a few weeks now. I think the kids enjoy them more than the iMacs.

Gamoe
Apr 26, 2012, 08:05 PM
I for one DO think that ALL children should learn to code- whether it be BASIC, Ruby or Python. Programming is not only a practical skill in itself, it also helps with logic and math and it does give children an opportunity to decide if they want to do something like that for a living- even if they don't, at least they aren't totally ignorant of the process.

I love the Mac, but there is something that has been missing at Apple since the Apple II and Woz days- computers (whether handheld, laptop or desktop) shouldn't be opaque and they shouldn't be looked at as mere appliances (per Jobs) and media devices (per iOS)- computers should also allow those interested to look behind the cover and enhance their understanding and technical ability.

I feel that society would be better if we raised the level of understanding and competency in computer usage and programming. This is the motivation behind providing a Python programming environment in the XO laptop (http://one.laptop.org/about/software). Wouldn't it be ironic if the third-world ended up being the producers and Americans became merely media and entertainment consumers. Oh wait...

SideStepSociety
Apr 26, 2012, 08:12 PM
Should put up a fence around it and move the "s" in "Kids" a bit.

"The new Apple Kid Stable. Revolutionizing the taste of free range children."

Naaaaak
Apr 26, 2012, 08:14 PM
How ironic is it that Apple is finally gaining significant PC market share, and they no longer care for it? :p

I'm not sure if I would call it "significant" market share, but I would call it modest. According to MacRumors coverage of the 2012 Q2 report (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/04/24/apple-reports-results-for-q2-2012-11-6-billion-profit-on-39-2-billion-in-revenue/):
New March quarter records for Desktops and Portables. Growth of 7% YoY compared to IDC's 2% growth for the PC market.
So 7% growth versus 2% growth for the PC market. Modest. From that same report:
iPad sales up 151% YoY
That's significant growth.


I'm sorry but I can't accept this mentality yet. I know this is somewhat dated but I feel it is still relevant:

Apple Mac Sales Could Sustain a Fortune 500 Company by Itself (http://www.tuaw.com/2010/10/20/apple-mac-sales-could-sustain-a-fortune-500-company-by-itself)

I was specific in my post about desktops. Your link is about overall Mac sales, which includes portables. Let's examine Apple's Q2 2012 Unaudited Summary Data (http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q2fy12datasum.pdf):
Q2 2012 Mac Portables Revenue: $3.5 billion
Q2 2012 Mac Desktops Revenue: $1.5 billion
Q2 2012 Overall Revenue: $39.2 billion

Data included from previous quarters were more dramatic than last, but you get the idea. Portables generated over twice as much revenue as Desktops for Apple last quarter (and for the other periods included in that PDF).

Some ways to put Mac Desktop revenue into perspective:
- Music services alone beat Mac Desktop revenue last quarter.
- The underperforming iPod revenue alone almost beat Mac Desktop revenue last quarter (and it did beat it in Q1 2012 and in Q2 2011).
- Apple's worst performing year over year revenue growth segments starting at the worst: iPod (-25%), Mac Portables (-1%), Mac Desktops (8%).
- Mac desktop sales alone were about 3% of Apple's total revenue.

So per the article, Mac sales alone could sustain another company, yes, but desktops are not the biggest part of Mac sales: laptops are. My original post cites the success of the MacBook Air as an iconic and leading product and also cites the has-been status of the iMac and the lack of other updates to the desktop line. To Apple, the Mac desktop is a small son and hence gets the small son treatment (1 token update a year is what it is looking like).

I wonder if there is sales data for each product somewhere. In other words, of the $1.5 billion Mac desktops brought in last quarter, what is the breakdown by iMac / Mac Mini / Mac Pro. Do you think that sales of an almost 2 year old Mac Pro would make up even a third of that $1.5 billion figure? I don't.

Think of some other things Apple used to make that ended up accounting for very little revenue and growth. What comes to mind for me is the XServe and we all know what happened to that. I fear the Mac Pro will be the next thing to get XServed (pun intended).


When we see a slowdown with Mac OSX development, and I think this upcoming WWDC (https://developer.apple.com/wwdc/about/) still shows a commitment to OSX, then I'll begin to truly worry.

OS X is a separate issue. Even if Apple kills off Mac desktops, OS X still runs on Mac laptops. I think all of the major features introduced in recent years tend to benefit laptop users more than desktop users. Spaces, Trackpad gestures, and Full-screen windows immediately come to mind.

bwillwall
Apr 26, 2012, 08:33 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

They are children. Children play computer games and have a hell of a long time before iPads. iPads have word processing apps of course. Please tell me how moving to tablets will make the kids stupider later on???

Yamcha
Apr 26, 2012, 08:34 PM
I kind of expected this to happen, iPad's are a lot easier to use..

firewood
Apr 26, 2012, 08:50 PM
I for one DO think that ALL children should learn to code- whether it be BASIC, Ruby or Python. Programming is not only a practical skill in itself, it also helps with logic and math and it does give children an opportunity to decide if they want to do something like that for a living- even if they don't, at least they aren't totally ignorant of the process.

I love the Mac, but there is something that has been missing at Apple since the Apple II and Woz days- computers ...


There are over a half dozen Basic interpreters available for the iPad, some not much different from AppleSoft on an Apple II, some free.

faroZ06
Apr 26, 2012, 08:54 PM
The iPads are cheaper to replace then the iMacs I'm sure. :p No breaking of keyboards or mice either!

Either way it makes sense on a few levels. Get them hooked on an iPad early! ;) Plus there's a ton of educational software and books on the iPad, not to mention games. But it is sad to see the Macs go. I remember seeing G3 iMacs, eMacs, and of course G5 & Intel iMacs in the kids corner.

People always viewed iMacs as educational computers. A lot of elementary (and middle and upper) schools use them because they are so simple, easy to use, appealing, and useful for subjects like math and reading.

While I can see the iPad being useful for reading, I just can't see a school having iPads for all of the kids to use. There is no multi-user support on the iPads, and they don't have all of the educational stuff (and games like Zoombinies, my kindergarden favorite).

Also, the younger kids would never use such a portable device, especially not at a school. What, is a 3rd grader going to carry around an iPad? Most of them would probably end up breaking or losing them. An iMac is a lot better for a little kid to use for math, reading, and learning how to use a PC.

kiljoy616
Apr 26, 2012, 09:00 PM
This is the wrong way to go. :mad:

charlituna
Apr 26, 2012, 09:23 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications.

so not what you say IT classes should be teaching the kiddies. But they are practical items that almost everyone can potentially use in a job rather than a very select skill that only a few folks will ever need


The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

First off, rarely are they IT classes so much as computer use classes which is why they teach touch typing, word processing etc.

Second, no one is saying they won't ever work with a computer. An actual IT class likely would. So they can code the iPhone app they have to make for their final exam

----------

I think the concern here is the potential creation of a generation of media consumers who barely know how to read, write, solve equations, etc... With parents who use their iDevices as mere babysitting tools with all the games available on iOS, it certainly seems like a valid concern.

If that is how these folks choose to parent that's on them. Same if that's how teachers chose to teach. It's not Apple's fault. They are just providing a tool.

I remember in high school all our classrooms had tvs and vcrs and some teachers would just pop in a movie because they didn't feel like teaching that day. Same game. right up there with dumping your kids at the library or mall to hang out rather than actually spending time with them. or letting the Wii babysit them.

Or you have the flip side of parents that only pick education games, don't let the kids watch TV all afternoon but actually get out and play outside, that put away their cell phone during home cooked meals and make the kids do the same etc.

----------



You really think that kids before sat and coded on an iMac? They played games on those too..

or fought over the small number of iMacs. in many stores it was only 1 or 2 on that table. compared to 4 iPads.

not to mention that there were maybe 4 games on the iMacs compared to something like 20 on the iPads when I counted the other day. From what I could tell they were mostly education games as well. Perhaps 1 or 2 just straight up game games.

----------

Wait til they actually replace iMacs with iPads.


if the iPad becomes fast enough and has the storage that an iMac has then I say awesome

I figure it actually will come close to the lower end at some point. like 10 years down the road.

And the interesting thing is that at that point computers and computing devices will become so common place in our lives that they will be just another part of the day. Kids will look for something else that will be their fun because the computer is school etc for them.

KnightWRX
Apr 26, 2012, 09:23 PM
Why would everybody learn how to code?
Do doctors have to know how to code?
Do cab drivers have to know how to code?
Etc.

You should only learn things because they will someday be useful for your job ? I thought education and learning was about expanding your horizons, not about teaching a trade.

Why are we teaching literature, math, philosophy, geography, history and all those other "useless" subjects for cab drivers ?

AidenShaw
Apr 26, 2012, 09:31 PM
I thought education and learning was about expanding your horizons, not about teaching a trade.

+3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170 68

I went to college to learn how to learn - and along with 90% of my class I went on to get graduate degrees at other schools.

charlituna
Apr 26, 2012, 09:53 PM
I agree. The writing is on the wall... err... iPad. It's up the the individual to read it, but this is where computers are heading. Not completely, but simplified computing devices, IMO, will be the majority of sales from now on.

That will be because for many, if not most, folks that is all the need. Why try to open a jar with a sledgehammer after all.

Not everyone is trying to write games, edit feature films, etc. They want to read email, listen to some music, get the red eye out of the photos of the kids and so on. An iPad can do that. and just as well as a 'real' computer.

bawbac
Apr 26, 2012, 09:54 PM
No surprise, since Apple has been going to kiddie toys for years.

Correct.
Apple has been moving toward more and more simple devices that have limited capabilities or are only capable of very special tasks for media manipulation.

Apple has become the device for simpletons/J6P and infants/kids to learn but out grow quickly due to its limitations that can not be over come.

charlituna
Apr 26, 2012, 09:58 PM
I was at my locale apple store on Monday waiting for my laptop and wanted to check something on the web. I picked one these up form the table and tried to find the browser and could not find it, went in to the system and there was no option for it there either, it like is never existed on the iPad.

DP

you can do that on your iPad as well. Same with youtube, the app store and iTunes store and a few other things.

----------

Code is a good method of teaching kids logic...

there are other ways as well. hell if you are creative enough you can use something like Angry Birds .

lesreaper2009
Apr 26, 2012, 10:40 PM
- Apple's worst performing year over year revenue growth segments starting at the worst: iPod (-25%), Mac Portables (-1%), Mac Desktops (8%).
- Mac desktop sales alone were about 3% of Apple's total revenue.

So per the article, Mac sales alone could sustain another company, yes, but desktops are not the biggest part of Mac sales: laptops are. My original post cites the success of the MacBook Air as an iconic and leading product and also cites the has-been status of the iMac and the lack of other updates to the desktop line. To Apple, the Mac desktop is a small son and hence gets the small son treatment (1 token update a year is what it is looking like).

I wonder if there is sales data for each product somewhere. In other words, of the $1.5 billion Mac desktops brought in last quarter, what is the breakdown by iMac / Mac Mini / Mac Pro. Do you think that sales of an almost 2 year old Mac Pro would make up even a third of that $1.5 billion figure? I don't.

Think of some other things Apple used to make that ended up accounting for very little revenue and growth. What comes to mind for me is the XServe and we all know what happened to that. I fear the Mac Pro will be the next thing to get XServed (pun intended).



This just makes me sad. An entire generation of creative artists, the people who make nearly all of the consumable content the iOS people will be using, have utilized Macs for everything. When Apple abandons us, are we going to switch to something else? After 10 or 20 years of muscle memory and the insane productivity that comes from that?

Secondly, it's sad because based on the numbers you provided, it's still profitable. It grew by 8%. Sure it isn't insane iOS growth, but it still makes money. Why abandon that? It's like a store putting out lead products to attract you into the store. Sure, you lose all your margins and make no money, but it gets you in. Well, in this case, wouldn't it make sense to continue to support the people who create your content in the closed Apple eco-system, even if it's at a small margin?

It makes sense if you're a sales company. But if you're a creative company still as well, it doesn't make sense to abandon your artists. Otherwise, Apple should just sell of it's Mac division and let it thrive on it's own, which it will.

fertilized-egg
Apr 26, 2012, 10:46 PM
'iToys' are becoming more and more capable and will soon (if not already) replace the PC needs for many.


Yes. It is ironic to see so many deriding the i-devices as "toys" in a "Mac" forum. Macintosh was considered a "toy" made for the masses who weren't smart enough to use the real computing, you know, the text command prompt.

In fact even the IBM desktop PCs were considered "toys" by the mainframe makers. Ken Olsen, probably the most famous mainframe-era executive, said "There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home" and called the desktop PCs "toys".

Ken Olsen's comment was also ironic too because his company, DEC, was founded on the basis that the company offered "mini" computers that were less capable but more affordable and manageable in size.

It seems when a disrupter gets disrupted, they forgot what got them in the first place.

koobcamuk
Apr 26, 2012, 10:50 PM
Perfect example of what the average kid does with an Apple device in a store. Play. And that's what they should do. Play. If parents want them to code they can take their children over to a Mac. Otherwise kids will be kids and play and what better thing to play with than an iPad.

When they hit 13, they realise there is something else more fun to play with.

JGowan
Apr 26, 2012, 11:31 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(Shaddap with this! The kids that will be at these tables are 4-10. CODING? WORD PROCESSING? Are you joking me with this crap. Let the kids be kids. They'd rather be on an iPad than some keyboard & mouse made for adult-sized hands.

spacepower7
Apr 26, 2012, 11:42 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

I'm sorry to sound like a jerk but your "IT" isn't woth a damn. I hope you didn't pay much for it. Word processing is something most teenagers can do. Office Applications too.

You are no longer elite bc your skills will be in less demand as computers and tablets become easier for the end user.

Why do you need to teach people to code, the people who want to learn will still desire to do so.

You need to differentiate yourself if you want future employment.

terraphantm
Apr 26, 2012, 11:49 PM
I think the concern here is the potential creation of a generation of media consumers who barely know how to read, write, solve equations, etc... With parents who use their iDevices as mere babysitting tools with all the games available on iOS, it certainly seems like a valid concern.

I get what you're saying, but that's been a problem long before the iPad. I think the problem is a result of bad schools. Math classes these day not only allow calculators, but require them. School teachers assign reading that is way too easy (and often the "literature" is just serving some politically correct cause), and they're way too easy on writing assignments. I was shocked when I looked at the essays that earned As from my little cousins. They looked like the kind of things I wrote in elementary school (my cousins are in high school). Sad part is I wasn't in high school that long ago. I did go to a private school, but I didn't think the difference was *that* large.

No math class I had ever allowed calculators - even for trig (the tests were designed to use the common values). Only time I was allowed to use a calculator were for classes like chemistry and physics where the process was not the focus. I had to read all sorts of literature, from Shakespeare to Tolkein, and the essays were tougher than what I get even in my college courses.

rgarjr
Apr 26, 2012, 11:50 PM
Apple likes to start their fans at a young age.

Supa_Fly
Apr 26, 2012, 11:52 PM
sexy

Maan ... you may really need to put that word into proper context ... those here that still have a bit of difficulty in the English language may just read that all wrong.

terraphantm
Apr 26, 2012, 11:52 PM
I'm sorry to sound like a jerk but your "IT" isn't woth a damn. I hope you didn't pay much for it. Word processing is something most teenagers can do. Office Applications too.

You are no longer elite bc your skills will be in less demand as computers and tablets become easier for the end user.

Why do you need to teach people to code, the people who want to learn will still desire to do so.

You need to differentiate yourself if you want future employment.

I'm pretty sure he's referring to what he was taught in middle/high school as his "IT" education. I cannot imagine a mid-20s person taking word processing classes as higher education.

aristotle
Apr 26, 2012, 11:59 PM
What is an "Enfant"?
Are you serious? You need to travel to Europe ASAP. You have lived a sheltered life.

IKBest
Apr 27, 2012, 12:29 AM
lol I noticed that in the SF apple store a while ago:D

donga
Apr 27, 2012, 01:10 AM
Interesting. Were apps like mail, messages, etc. still present?

i'm not exactly sure, i was just looking for safari cause i wanted to look something up. possibly.

maybe there's a kids mode that they can implement when they want to.

JoeMacDaddy
Apr 27, 2012, 01:34 AM
My 4 year old went to the kids section when there were iMacs and he took the mouse and rolled it across the screen. She has only used and iPhone and iPad. I took her to the iPad display and she was a happy camper.

This is the new way. The new MAC! for all of use computer dinosaurs that used to build our machines, rely on a keyboard, rely upon a mouse, they are all passé. We have entered a new day.

IPhones and iPads are the new computer devices. They dream of the "DynaBook" is upon us.

Enjoy, it will only get better.

I WAS the one
Apr 27, 2012, 01:40 AM
Best change ever! My daughter was running so fast she trip with two kids that were already there! And she's 3! Before that she sat on the black rubber ball to figure out how to play with the magic freaking mouse POS

Konrad
Apr 27, 2012, 01:58 AM
It all doesn't matter. The more important issue is how to minimize all computer devices usage regardless of their construction by children and let kids experience life. I prefer to see boys hitting something right on target with a slingshot and getting into some good mischief, instead of sitting in front of the screen, which they will do anyway at some point. Allowing even calculators in schools at the elemenery or high school level is simply elementary wrong. Kids should be enticed in a fun way to use their brains.

magbarn
Apr 27, 2012, 02:01 AM
It all doesn't matter. The more important issue is how to minimize all computer devices usage regardless of their construction by children and let kids experience life. I prefer to see boys hitting something right on target with a slingshot and getting into some good mischief, instead of sitting in front of the screen, which they will do anyway at some point. Allowing even calculators in schools at the elemenery or high school level is simply elementary wrong. Kids should be enticed in a fun way to use their brains.

Resistance is futile....

Navdakilla
Apr 27, 2012, 02:49 AM
I like this

ArcaneDevice
Apr 27, 2012, 03:04 AM
Kids like playing with iPads so this is a good idea. Not to mention the variety of Mac OSX games being produced is not even worth comparing.

What is needed is a touch screen iMac to gain the benefits of a large screen and iOS apps that can also be switched to adult tasks that involve keyboards and precision.

No matter how good a touchscreen is the keyboard will always suck by comparison and without a stylus or mouse any attempts at fine and controlled work are always going to be second rate.

----------


This is the new way. The new MAC! for all of use computer dinosaurs that used to build our machines, rely on a keyboard, rely upon a mouse, they are all passé.

Yeah and I'm sure architects and engineers will be constructing elevations and plans with fingerpaints too. :rolleyes:

SBlue1
Apr 27, 2012, 03:16 AM
Makes sense in my opinion.

darrens
Apr 27, 2012, 03:56 AM
When my son heard about this, his first reaction wasn't "Cool, iPads", it was "Oh no, no more Lego Star Wars".

He knows he can use an iPad in any other part of the store - this was the only place he could play Mac games.

JustMarci
Apr 27, 2012, 05:12 AM
Wow...those are going to be amazing petri dishes. Blech.

Knotty
Apr 27, 2012, 05:58 AM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

The aim is to get away from having them learning to use office apps, most kids can do that fine without being taught it in school anyway.

There are plenty of schemes coming in to help improve primary phase computer science education, and believe it or not iPads won't change that one bit. Infact iPads give kids a massive boost in terms of getting a really good all-round education, not just ICT related. Do some research and you'll find out they don't just "spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices".

robeddie
Apr 27, 2012, 06:23 AM
Yes. It is ironic to see so many deriding the i-devices as "toys" in a "Mac" forum. Macintosh was considered a "toy" made for the masses who weren't smart enough to use the real computing, you know, the text command prompt.

In fact even the IBM desktop PCs were considered "toys" by the mainframe makers. Ken Olsen, probably the most famous mainframe-era executive, said "There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home" and called the desktop PCs "toys".
.

I'll be fine once iOS has anywhere near the flexibility and capability of a full-fledged computer operating system. But even ridiculously simple things, like downloading a video from your email to save it to your ipad hard drive, or attach more than one photo to an email you send, are all but impossible in iOS.
I got an iPad a couple years ago, but quickly felt like I was in candy-colored prison.

Chupa Chupa
Apr 27, 2012, 06:43 AM
Apple has become the device for simpletons/J6P and infants/kids to learn but out grow quickly due to its limitations that can not be over come.

Hmm. I may be a "simpleton" but I do know that Apple is a corporation not a device. Their is no Apple device genius.

But, honestly, I'd think you'd appreciate the iPad. Turn it off, look at it under good lighting and it's a mirror for you to praise yourself.

KnightWRX
Apr 27, 2012, 06:53 AM
Shaddap with this! The kids that will be at these tables are 4-10. CODING? WORD PROCESSING? Are you joking me with this crap. Let the kids be kids. They'd rather be on an iPad than some keyboard & mouse made for adult-sized hands.

It's about the age I started writing batch files in DOS, messing with memory management, learning about XMS, EMS, conventional memory, protected mode, real mode...

Kids being kids and learning about the world around them, interacting with it, being curious about the things they use... nope, forget that, kids should play with plastic things and never wonder about how it works at all. Why does everyone believe kids under 10 just want to play with stuff and don't want to learn things ? "Just give them video games! and toys!". No, give them legos, and let them have systems where they can discover, create. Under 10 is where the brain is more apt to develop skills and creativity.

I kind of agree with neltic13, though the damage has been already done, and quite a while ago. When computers started shipping with OSes that plainly worked and needed little to no fiddling (think Windows 95), then it was already over. DOS/Commodore/Amiga were pretty much the last bastions.

----------

Hmm. I may be a "simpleton" but I do know that Apple is a corporation not a device. Their is no Apple device genius.

I think he meant Apple ships devices, not Apple is a device. I think anyone who didn't get offended by his post because of kind of irrational attachment to these devices or the corporation itself understood what he meant.

Why attack him and insult him over it ? He has a right to his opinion, it doesn't make him narcissistic. You aren't better than him because you have some kind of irrational attachment to faceless corporations or their products.

Cheerwino
Apr 27, 2012, 07:29 AM
This changes everything!!!

guzhogi
Apr 27, 2012, 07:38 AM
The main problem I see with replacing Macs with iPads (though on a higher level than just kids exhibits) is that iPads, at the moment, are mainly consumer electronics while Macs are both consumer & producer electronics. I'm not saying iPads can never be producers, I see great potential for them being producers, there isn't enough producer apps out there to make them an end-all, be-all electronics.

Example: how do you submit songs in Garageband to the iTunes Music Store? Where's xCode for iPad?

I don't see Apple getting rid of all their Macs ad just sell iDevices today, as they'd be shooting themselves in the foot. However, I think they need to add more producing apps to the App Store before even considering dropping its Mac line.

law guy
Apr 27, 2012, 07:39 AM
I think the point re: coding and the others was perhaps interaction with computers as content creation devices, tools is worthwhile. The Steve Jobs and Wozs of the world who took things apart, learned machine languages and steered new standards, the Apple developers and software engineers, the PIXAR and ILM folks who developed the technology from their knowledge and imagination, I think those would be examples of why having a deeper introduction to computers is worth while. I don't know that iPads deprive folks of that as an Apple-playground / marketing tool, but my sense is the trend that concerns some is the Apple push towards iOS, not at the expense of, but with a seeming diminishing focus on being a company that supports computing for science and content creation, ceding that ground now to Adobe LR4 takes and adopts as "revolutionary" and "magical" the highlight and shadow sliding design that have been in Aperture for years. Photoshop CS6 integrates with the same Apple-like tag lines and launch videos how video is not integrated into PS - with amazing ability to drag-and-drop transitions. Apple seems content to let their role as a professional software company fade to Adobe as it slowly copies (and innovates) while it loses Aperture and Final Cut users. Part of the appeal of the Apple software was its use in the Apple eco-system on Apple machines. But gone are the days when Apple CEOs would stand on stage and compare a Dell workstation head-to-head with a Mac Pro or Power Mac. One only need to look at an HP workstation and a Mac Pro last updated several technologies and 700-some days ago to see it's not a focus. And if you might not be on a Mac in a year or two, it makes less sense to use the Mac-Only apps - it pushes people towards Adobe or Avid. A bit of a round-about way of saying that these seem to be some bigger trends at Apple and the iPad play area just is another brick in that wall.

Flitzy
Apr 27, 2012, 07:44 AM
I don't think it's an indication that they're phasing out Macs or anything.

I just think there are more kid friendly iPad games then there are Mac games - because it's easier and simpler to pick up and control.

You can't take a Macbook or iMac in the car on long trips (well you could a Macbook but it's more cumbersome and harder to keep charged) like you can an iPad.

It's brilliant on Apple's part, in terms of business decisions.

MH01
Apr 27, 2012, 07:54 AM
Why would everybody learn how to code?
Do doctors have to know how to code?
Do cab drivers have to know how to code?
Etc.

Missing the point.

A move like this would mean less coders..... of the kids that would potentially want to code. Replacing imacs with ipads will not impact the number of cab drivers, docs etc, it though has a higher chance to impact coders, as kids are not interacting with computers anymore...

Any idiot can use an ipad.... takes a few more braincells to use an computer...

Abazigal
Apr 27, 2012, 07:54 AM
I disagree with the notion that kids are somehow losing out on their education just because they aren't learning word processing on a "proper" computer.

The buzzword this days seems to be focusing on 21st century skills - digital and visual literacy. The ipad seems to be an ideal tool for this, considering that it is basically 50% screen (and 50% battery).

I am teaching in a classroom with 1-1 computing, and I have observed that my pupils (8-9 year olds) are, interestingly enough, more comfortable with using styluses on their tablet PCs than the trackpads (whatever you call that little red rubber point nestled between the keys). In fact, they prefer to use the word recognition software (and write) rather than type! Even though my own school-issued fujitsu tablet PC came with a touch screen, I hardly ever used it, but was amazed when my pupils manipulated the screen with their fingers like nobody's business.

And so far, I noticed that the biggest issues they face are mostly hardware-related problems, such as inability to connect to the school's wireless, problems logging in, ms office crashing when they try to save their work to the school's network, bloatware slowing down the system to a crawl, basically all the problems that comes with handling a full-fledged OS.

I am beginning to wonder if they might be better served with ipads instead (unlikely because of my ministry's very close working relationship with microsoft). I feel the pupils would honestly be no worse off with iworks for ios (they are already using just a small fraction of office's full capabilities anyways). Basically, the idea is that they can carry on with all these tasks like blogging without having to worry about time wasted on troubleshooting.

The only real advantage I can think of for those thinkpads is that they are built like freaking tanks, and have managed to soak up whatever abuse the kids may have inflicted on them these past years. :p

MadMitch89
Apr 27, 2012, 08:04 AM
I noticed his at the Apple store in Chermside (Queensland, Australia). Makes more sense to me than 21.5 iMacs. The kids seemed to be having a whale of a time playing games on the iPads.

JGowan
Apr 27, 2012, 08:24 AM
It all doesn't matter. The more important issue is how to minimize all computer devices usage regardless of their construction by children and let kids experience life. I prefer to see boys hitting something right on target with a slingshot and getting into some good mischief, instead of sitting in front of the screen, which they will do anyway at some point. Allowing even calculators in schools at the elemenery or high school level is simply elementary wrong. Kids should be enticed in a fun way to use their brains.I think you're in the wrong forum. Here's a link to ARCHERY IN THE U.S.:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/

If you don't want your kids playing with "computery stuff" then don't take them into the Apple store or buy them this stuff. Take them outside and let them shoot targets all you want.

I think you don't get it. If you take kids to the Videogame store, they'll look at the games; if you go to Target, they'll be in the toy section; if you take them to Barnes & Noble, they'll look at books... AND IF YOU TAKE THEM TO AN APPLE STORE, THEY'LL HAVE IPADS TO PLAY WITH!!

This is not some sort of conspiracy by Apple to rob your children of their youth behind some backlit screen. They're job is to make sure that IF children are brought into their store, they can be entertained and even educated with the software on their devices.

It is YOUR JOB as a parent to JUST SAY NO when Little Bobby has had too much video games or iPod time. Don't lay this off all on Apple, Konrad.

----------

... the damage has been already done, and quite a while ago. When computers started shipping with OSes that plainly worked and needed little to no fiddling (think Windows 95), then it was already over. DOS/Commodore/Amiga were pretty much the last bastions.Don't agree. At all.

The number of people who are graduating with a computer science degree now VS 1984 is off the charts. Kids who want to do this will find a way and wow... lo and behold, Apple will even let them build their own apps, sell them on their App Store and become overnight millionaires. Or become part of a team and code video games. Or work in Hollywood making movies.

Let's not be so humdrum about the death of computer coding and writing. There's more opportunity now than ever before. It might not be exactly as you experienced it but what is the same after 30 years. Plumbing is even different. Adapt or Die.

xgman
Apr 27, 2012, 08:28 AM
I guess the next step is to replace any stray Mac Pros left in stores with ipads too. . . . :rolleyes:

guzhogi
Apr 27, 2012, 08:42 AM
I think you're in the wrong forum. Here's a link to ARCHERY IN THE U.S.:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/

If you don't want your kids playing with "computery stuff" then don't take them into the Apple store or buy them this stuff. Take them outside and let them shoot targets all you want.

I think you don't get it. If you take kids to the Videogame store, they'll look at the games; if you go to Target, they'll be in the toy section; if you take them to Barnes & Noble, they'll look at books... AND IF YOU TAKE THEM TO AN APPLE STORE, THEY'LL HAVE IPADS TO PLAY WITH!!

This is not some sort of conspiracy by Apple to rob your children of their youth behind some backlit screen. They're job is to make sure that IF children are brought into their store, they can be entertained and even educated with the software on their devices.

It is YOUR JOB as a parent to JUST SAY NO when Little Bobby has had too much video games or iPod time. Don't lay this off all on Apple, Konrad.

I totally agree; it's not just Apple's fault, it's the parents' fault as well. I know, it's hard to say "No, you can't get this iDevice or that toy" to your kids' cute faces, but parents really need to have their kids learn how to be creative and be eager to learn stuff.

However, Apple needs to provide something to let people produce stuff, not just consume. If Apple really wants to be an iDevice-only company and drop Macs, provide the tools necessary to create & submit the apps, music, videos, books and whatnot on whatever devices they offer. As I said, if Apple offers only iDevices but not port xCode & whatever tools producers need, all the things that people consume will eventually dry up.

bawbac
Apr 27, 2012, 09:32 AM
Hmm. I may be a "simpleton" but I do know that Apple is a corporation not a device. Their is no Apple device genius.

But, honestly, I'd think you'd appreciate the iPad. Turn it off, look at it under good lighting and it's a mirror for you to praise yourself.
Pat yourself for using semantics to justify your point but a simpleton most likely understood what I posted. :D

No need to turn off the iPad to see yourself. Your reflection can be seen just fine when it's on.
May be that is one of the things that draw kids to the iPad.
They can see themselves in the app in which they are using & feel they are incorporated. :p

N0k14 D14B10
Apr 27, 2012, 09:48 AM
this is really a step in the right direction , in bracing a new generation of Apple gear , although i all ways will have a special place in my heart for iMacs :D

thirteen1031
Apr 27, 2012, 10:18 AM
With parents who use their iDevices as mere babysitting tools with all the games available on iOS, it certainly seems like a valid concern.
It's always a valid concern that parents use anything as a continual babysitting tool in lieu of interacting with their kids.

However, the computers at the Apple store have ALWAYS been a babysitting tool--as well as a clever way to create a future consumer, and thank heavens for them! Or would you prefer kids running around while mom/dad shops for a new computer? As is the case in most electronics stores where there is no kid's table? I really don't like kids interfering with me, or playing on one of the display computers that I want to check out and maybe buy; I really don't like hearing parents continually shouting at such kids to "don't touch that! don't do that!" etc. And parents and kids stay in the store longer because the parent has to keep dealing with the kid instead of getting what they came for.

If the iPads in the store keep said kid(s) quiet and occupied, allowing mom/dad to get business done quickly and keeping young children from interfering my shopping experience, then I see no issue. It's only what the computers at those tables have always done.

Just to add, from what I see, iPads do encourage interaction between parents and kids, far more than computers did. Parents and child can read together on an iPad, do homework together, explore science and history together, and the family can play games together (backgammon, etc.). And they can do this just about anywhere, anytime. So I would say that iPads are more interactive than that one chair at a desk with a home computer.

LAG ISSUEZ
Apr 27, 2012, 10:54 AM
I think the concern here is the potential creation of a generation of media consumers who barely know how to read, write, solve equations, etc... With parents who use their iDevices as mere babysitting tools with all the games available on iOS, it certainly seems like a valid concern.

Sorry man but people have been using that same line since music and tv. Hasn't changed a thing. Oh wait yes it has, we now have ios app developers.

mobi
Apr 27, 2012, 11:19 AM
My kids, ages 5 & 3 prefer iOS over OSX :)

KnightWRX
Apr 27, 2012, 11:31 AM
Don't agree. At all.

The number of people who are graduating with a computer science degree now VS 1984 is off the charts. Kids who want to do this will find a way and wow... lo and behold, Apple will even let them build their own apps, sell them on their App Store and become overnight millionaires. Or become part of a team and code video games. Or work in Hollywood making movies.

Let's not be so humdrum about the death of computer coding and writing. There's more opportunity now than ever before. It might not be exactly as you experienced it but what is the same after 30 years. Plumbing is even different. Adapt or Die.

And working in the industry with these "graduates", I can tell you that the quality of them is on a downhill slide. Less and less they know how to diagnose and tinker with the systems, and more and more are reliant on pre-made procedures. When a problem requires more analysis, these people hit a brick wall, something the generation that grew up with more "tinkerer's" systems don't.

Also, you're quite wrong about the graduates. Most colleges around here have closed down the computer science departments and there are less and less people following them and graduating from degrees.

You're quite detached from reality, though that's something I can understand from people not actually on the "inside".

JAT
Apr 27, 2012, 11:59 AM
I only had time to scan half the thread, maybe someone said this already.

This move is a complete no-brainer for Apple Stores. Because the iPads are what the kids have been playing on for the last year in the stores. Every time I go in, kiddie section empty, kids crowded around the iPads. Including my 3 kids, and they are not 4yo anymore. It's a hands-on store, give the customer what they want.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled 22 year olds talking about whether or not they know how to raise kids.

melendezest
Apr 27, 2012, 12:13 PM
"I think he meant Apple ships devices, not Apple is a device. I think anyone who didn't get offended by his post because of kind of irrational attachment to these devices or the corporation itself understood what he meant.

Why attack him and insult him over it ? He has a right to his opinion, it doesn't make him narcissistic. You aren't better than him because you have some kind of irrational attachment to faceless corporations or their products."

It was he who attacked individuals who use the iPad, by calling them simpletons and implying that if you use an iPad you're stupid somehow. That is not an opinion, that's an assertion.

geoffm33
Apr 27, 2012, 12:19 PM
I only had time to scan half the thread, maybe someone said this already.

This move is a complete no-brainer for Apple Stores. Because the iPads are what the kids have been playing on for the last year in the stores. Every time I go in, kiddie section empty, kids crowded around the iPads. Including my 3 kids, and they are not 4yo anymore. It's a hands-on store, give the customer what they want.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled 22 year olds talking about whether or not they know how to raise kids.

Absolutely this.

The games/activities on the ipad are richer and more interactive (ie: a better experience) than on the iMacs. At least for my 3yo, the mouse was such a hinderance to learning and takes away from the experience of the game/activity.

Boisv
Apr 27, 2012, 12:22 PM
I'm not sure if I would call it "significant" market share, but I would call it modest.

I was actually thinking that as I was writing it. Significant is a relative term in this case. Compared to HP or Dell it would probably seem tiny. Compared to where Apple was in 1998, it's significant.

There's also a difference between significant growth and significant market share. Significant growth probably would be more appropriate. To market analysts, this (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/10/12/apples-share-of-u-s-pc-market-leaps-to-12-9-in-3q-2011/) is considered some pretty significant growth. Their market share might still be relatively small, but it seems that it's tripled in five years. That's impressive.

These days I know countless former "Mac haters" who now own macs... and iPhones and iPods and iPads for that matter. :)

mrsir2009
Apr 27, 2012, 01:49 PM
Ugh....

fertilized-egg
Apr 27, 2012, 01:57 PM
I kind of agree with neltic13, though the damage has been already done, and quite a while ago. When computers started shipping with OSes that plainly worked and needed little to no fiddling (think Windows 95), then it was already over. DOS/Commodore/Amiga were pretty much the last bastions.

I completely disagree. UNIX and older generations were already lamenting how DOS users lacked understanding of system and hardware. However because your experience was with DOS and its config.sys, autoexec.bat, etc. Windows 95 may feel like the beginning of the end and DOS was the "last bastions" to you, but those who grew up with Windows 95 will remember how great Windows 95 was - "I could do so much by changing INI and registry in Windows 95" - and how Windows XP and OSX were where things began to fall.

This is no different from "Music was so much better when I was younger" thing or "kids these days are so rude". They laughed at music from the 80s, then 90s, then 00s then 10s. One day we'll see them lament Justin Bieber was "so much better than the singers today".

I'll be fine once iOS has anywhere near the flexibility and capability of a full-fledged computer operating system.

And that is how each generation started. PCs were ridiculously underpowered compared to mainframes and the first Mac was very limiting and slow as well, as was iPhone was in its first incarnation compared to Symbian and Windows Mobile.

puckhead193
Apr 27, 2012, 02:05 PM
well at least the kids won't be playing in the iPad section instead they have their own section. This will free up the iPads for grown-ups to play on.

charlituna
Apr 27, 2012, 03:40 PM
It all doesn't matter. The more important issue is how to minimize all computer devices usage regardless of their construction by children and let kids experience life. I prefer to see boys hitting something right on target with a slingshot and getting into some good mischief, instead of sitting in front of the screen, which they will do anyway at some point. .

That's not an Apple issue. That is you telling them, or not telling them to go the heck outside and play

If we asked my mom for fast food, candy etc the answer was no. No to the Nintendo etc. video games were something we got to do at the bowling alley when our parents had their monthly league game, if we remembered our allowance (none of that I'll pay you back at home stuff). A cell phone was something that made calls that you were when you were driving and only when you were driving. If dad dropped us off you didn't need the phone and it stayed at home

The issue is that most parents have no balls and won't say no.

----------

When my son heard about this, his first reaction wasn't "Cool, iPads", it was "Oh no, no more Lego Star Wars".



Here in the US they took the Lego games off like a year ago. It was kid pix, a Dora game and a Diego game and that's it

----------

Missing the point.

A move like this would mean less coders..... of the kids that would potentially want to code.

Total bs. There are still computers, they don't need to be on the kids table for them to exist or kids to learn them. The damn things were locked down tighter than a virgins chastity belt anyway.

Having iPads there if anything might encourage kids to want to learn cause when junior complains all the games suck you can challenge him to make one himself. Kids as young as 9 have made games that are available on the app store, which is another stack of lessons for junior to experience

JAT
Apr 27, 2012, 03:44 PM
When computers started shipping with OSes that plainly worked and needed little to no fiddling (think Windows 95)
So, you are refering to the year 1984?

aristokrat
Apr 27, 2012, 04:26 PM
I'm pretty sure kids who want an IT education won't be stopped by the iPad.

If the family computer is an iPad, there goes any chance of learning to code. This is exactly what the Raspberry Pi guys are fighting against. Not saying what's right, but if you can't write code at home you won't learn how to code, and not everyone can afford multiple computing devices.

SandynJosh
Apr 27, 2012, 04:39 PM
Great move!

I agree!!

The little ones haven't learned to type yet and the iPad can get them involved without that hurdle in place. With the advent of voice dictation and the decline of keyboard-equipped PCs, these kids will enter a world more in tune with an iPad than a PC. It was only a generation ago that I had to learn how to set margins and tabs on a typewriter.

Time marches on and these little kids are getting ready to enter a world we barely can imagine.

----------

If the family computer is an iPad, there goes any chance of learning to code. This is exactly what the Raspberry Pi guys are fighting against. Not saying what's right, but if you can't write code at home you won't learn how to code, and not everyone can afford multiple computing devices.

You have the thinking skills of an old foggy. I refer you to an article in TIME magazine, 10 Feb 2011. 2045: The Year Man Becomes Immortal.

Self-coding computers are among us now and by 2045 they will be able to code better than any human mind can comprehend. Coding is so so so last century.

SandynJosh
Apr 27, 2012, 05:07 PM
This just makes me sad. An entire generation of creative artists, the people who make nearly all of the consumable content the iOS people will be using, have utilized Macs for everything. When Apple abandons us, are we going to switch to something else? After 10 or 20 years of muscle memory and the insane productivity that comes from that?

I think you have it backwards. Apple won't abandon you by not making the products you need. However, the market will abandon Apple if it does not make the products the market calls for.
Apple is always skating to where the puck will be. If you follow that, you can sense where you need to be.
I subscribe to a great blog about the great magazine and book illustrators of the 1950s and 1960s. The problem they ran into as the 1960s began to wane were the increasing use of photography in place of illustrations. The successful illustrators moved to photography to serve their old clients, and others moved to other areas of art.
RULE 1:Nothing is static. RULE 2: Change happens faster then it used to.

Secondly, it's sad because based on the numbers you provided, it's still profitable. It grew by 8%. Sure it isn't insane iOS growth, but it still makes money. Why abandon that? It's like a store putting out lead products to attract you into the store. Sure, you lose all your margins and make no money, but it gets you in. Well, in this case, wouldn't it make sense to continue to support the people who create your content in the closed Apple eco-system, even if it's at a small margin?

Again, turn your thinking around. Macs do not bring the customers into the Apple store, the iDevices do that. The Macs are gaining from that association, not the other way around. Furthermore it is the laptops that are selling like hotcakes, not the desktops Macs. Content creators that need a lot of power are a very small segment of the total Mac buyers. In addition when a buyer needs a lot of power, like a Mac Pro, they often will go to other more powerful computers that are specific to the task. For example Pixar does not use Macs, and they have a good reason to do so.

It makes sense if you're a sales company. But if you're a creative company still as well, it doesn't make sense to abandon your artists. Otherwise, Apple should just sell of it's Mac division and let it thrive on it's own, which it will.

I think we're going to see Macs around for a long long time, after all, all the products made for illustrators are still being sold...but you don't see any research going into how to make a better Berol pen for illustrator only.

bawbac
Apr 27, 2012, 05:16 PM
My kids, ages 5 & 3 prefer iOS over OSX :)
Simple things for simple minds. ;)

KnightWRX
Apr 27, 2012, 05:19 PM
I completely disagree. UNIX and older generations were already lamenting how DOS users lacked understanding of system and hardware. However because your experience was with DOS and its config.sys, autoexec.bat, etc.

Funny how I went on to become a full time Linux user in my college days to now a Unix systems administrator uh ? Must be that DOS that made me lack understanding of system and hardware.

Have you ever played around with DOS ? If anything, it never abstracted the hardware away (like Unix does) and always required you to understand what was in the machine and how to address it.

Again, spoken like someone that's pretty detached from how the 80s-90s of computing worked and how it works today.

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So, you are refering to the year 1984?

Nope, since thank god, Mac OS was largely irrelevant until recently. The classic system was a mess.

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And that is how each generation started. PCs were ridiculously underpowered compared to mainframes and the first Mac was very limiting and slow as well, as was iPhone was in its first incarnation compared to Symbian and Windows Mobile.

Except it's not. The PC with DOS shipped with 2 programming languages and were self-programmable, customizable, etc.. It's not about computing power, people are talking about the software's flexibility. iOS is locked down, that is what it is, how it is built.

bedifferent
Apr 27, 2012, 05:49 PM
Apple isn't following markets, it's begun defining them.

The first iPhone was $600 (later $200 store credits were issued). Many thought it over-priced, no 3G, no apps (at the time), etc. Yet it sold amazingly. Apple marketed the ****** out of it at a time when smart phones were mostly enterprise/business oriented and Motorola RAZR's dominated the market. It was the first device *aside from the iPod* that was cross platform, gave many a taste of Apple products.

In this instance, Apple didn't follow a market trend, it empowered Joe-sumer and fashionista's into the smart phone/mobile industry. Most at the time thought Mac's were limiting, had little software, not Windows compatible (Intel changed that in 2006), over priced. After the iPhone in 2007, Apple enticed consumers into MacBook's for their kids and iMac's as a refreshing alt to the clumsy tower. Soon Apple began disregarding the PowerMac's and displays that gave Apple the money for R&D into the iPad and thus the iPhone. Now Apple makes the majority of its cash from iDevices and consumer products. This doesn't mean professional products aren't making Apple any money, Apple is choosing to focus on one market. With $100+ billions in cash, why can't they do both???

fertilized-egg
Apr 27, 2012, 06:07 PM
Again, spoken like someone that's pretty detached from how the 80s-90s of computing worked and how it works today.

You are completely wrong. I spent countless hours in config.sys to squeeze the last kb out of that available memory in DOS. Asian language .sys drivers loaded in DOS were a nightmare because games needed that extra memory. I was the go-to person to work the magics of himem.sys and emm386.exe in my class.

To add, it's because I was there I opine all the worry about iPad is unfounded. I wasn't knowledgable in the workings of soldiering and logic gates like some of my seniors were. They lamented how the young ones now know nothing about assembly and workings of hardware itself unlike them who learnt so much low-level stuff from Apple II. It happens every generation.


Except it's not. The PC with DOS shipped with 2 programming languages and were self-programmable, customizable, etc.. It's not about computing power, people are talking about the software's flexibility. iOS is locked down, that is what it is, how it is built.

You're confusing two things. There are the programming part and the hacking part. DOS' GW and QBasic were all about programming and it was debug.com in DOS that allowed you to do real hacking if you knew X86 assembly, and I knew a few people who lamented how little DOS people knew about using assembly compared to "good old days of Apple IIe".

The first part however, could easily by covered by apps that cater to logic development and simple programming opportunities just as Mac Hypercard did. In time you'll get more and more of these apps and kids will develop their thinking mind just as we did and our parents did.

In the human history, everyone was always worried the new technology would lessen the sophistication of human minds. I'm sure when writing was first invented, someone thought it'll destroy human mind by taking away the need to memorize things.

bedifferent
Apr 27, 2012, 06:26 PM
Sorry man but people have been using that same line since music and tv. Hasn't changed a thing. Oh wait yes it has, we now have ios app developers.

You should work in HR. Recent college grads lack social skills necessary for interviewing (and these range from Ivy League to Liberal Arts). It's not uncommon that they can't make eye connect, are overall socially awkward compared to generations that didn't grow up with phones and texting and I've had a few actually text while being interviewed. We're creating an anti-social environment and people are losing general social skills. Online forums, texting, IM'ing - it's crippling younger generations' ability to socialize. Look around you, I've seen kids in restaurants not talking to each other but texting. I once had a student at Columbia hand in a research proposal in short hand text! At Columbia!

LAG ISSUEZ
Apr 27, 2012, 06:42 PM
That's nice. You can't generalize all of the youth from a handful of stories. That's like saying all black people like fried chicken and watermelon. There may be a new trend of the things you mentioned no doubt but it's evolution...social evolution. If that's the direction it goes then that's where it goes but as the youth grows up together they won't think anything negative of it. In fact they will be much more likely to understand each other than the "elders" do. I'm 32, work full time, married, own a house, play cod like crazy and write this from my iPhone. I do it all and no one would call me socially inept.

bedifferent
Apr 27, 2012, 07:20 PM
duplicate post

LAG ISSUEZ
Apr 27, 2012, 07:42 PM
Why do you have to be done? Don't you know its fun to for each of us to try to prove our points till we're blue in the face? I think I'm right, you think you're right, so what, we're both right and in the end none of this **** even matters anyway. And for the record I have seen everything you describe, at my work and at restaurants and I've have even been that couple :) but yeah if you're done then cool, have a good night as well. Nice sparring wih you.

bedifferent
Apr 27, 2012, 07:48 PM
Why do you have to be done? Don't you know its fun to for each of us to try to prove our points till we're blue in the face? I think I'm right, you think you're right, so what, we're both right and in the end none of this **** even matters anyway. And for the record I have seen everything you describe, at my work and at restaurants and I've have even been that couple :) but yeah if you're done then cool, have a good night as well. Nice sparring wih you.

Sorry, just depressed by life and what I've seen, especially from people on here. Guess I'm just losing faith in humanity. Every day I see more people disagreeing and fighting over silly things. It seems we've lost the humane in humanity.

Night

LAG ISSUEZ
Apr 27, 2012, 08:00 PM
No we haven't, only in America we have. Don't forget there is an entire world out there, one that doesn't even spend time on the Internet or even own a smartphone.

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Besides, only you can make you happy. Don't worry about what others do. Till the end of time humans should look at life this way. As long as your feelings are governed by others you are a slave to them and they own you.

KnightWRX
Apr 27, 2012, 09:09 PM
You are completely wrong. I spent countless hours in config.sys to squeeze the last kb out of that available memory in DOS. Asian language .sys drivers loaded in DOS were a nightmare because games needed that extra memory. I was the go-to person to work the magics of himem.sys and emm386.exe in my class.

So what was it you think the UNIX folk thought we lacked again ? And why did my collegues and I becoming UNIX people out of a DOS background mean about them ?

To add, it's because I was there I opine all the worry about iPad is unfounded. I wasn't knowledgable in the workings of soldiering and logic gates like some of my seniors were. They lamented how the young ones now know nothing about assembly and workings of hardware itself unlike them who learnt so much low-level stuff from Apple II. It happens every generation.

In the 90s in the BBS scene, there was this thing called the demo scene. Assembly was their black magic. Hence, I'm not wrong. DOS, with its interrupt based syscall interface that matched the BIOS of the early PC was a match made in heavy for assembly.

On iOS... well... nope, nothing.

bawbac
Apr 27, 2012, 11:50 PM
Apple isn't following markets, it's begun defining them.

The first iPhone was $600 (later $200 store credits were issued). Many thought it over-priced, no 3G, no apps (at the time), etc. Yet it sold amazingly. Apple marketed the ****** out of it at a time when smart phones were mostly enterprise/business oriented and Motorola RAZR's dominated the market. It was the first device *aside from the iPod* that was cross platform, gave many a taste of Apple products.

In this instance, Apple didn't follow a market trend, it empowered Joe-sumer and fashionista's into the smart phone/mobile industry. Most at the time thought Mac's were limiting, had little software, not Windows compatible (Intel changed that in 2006), over priced. After the iPhone in 2007, Apple enticed consumers into MacBook's for their kids and iMac's as a refreshing alt to the clumsy tower. Soon Apple began disregarding the PowerMac's and displays that gave Apple the money for R&D into the iPad and thus the iPhone. Now Apple makes the majority of its cash from iDevices and consumer products. This doesn't mean professional products aren't making Apple any money, Apple is choosing to focus on one market. With $100+ billions in cash, why can't they do both???
I love apples quality but their mindset on how they limit their products and force their consumers to utilize specific protocol/programs/methods is close to myopic dictatorship modeling.

Abazigal
Apr 28, 2012, 01:28 AM
I love apples quality but their mindset on how they limit their products and force their consumers to utilize specific protocol/programs/methods is close to myopic dictatorship modeling.

And apparently, most people love them despite it (or perhaps, because of it).:)

edk
Apr 28, 2012, 04:26 AM
does anyone have a list of which kids apps they have installed on those iPad?

personally, I don't see why anyone is surprised by this. The iPad is more successful a device - why wouldn't they do this?

My 3yr old son can work my ipad better than the wife... it's the future. Only people over 16 will moan and complain. For those growing up, using an iMac would be like going back to a BBC micro to play Elite, when instead, you can play Real Racing 2HD on an ipad3:)

(bad example... Elite was great. Is there an ipad port somewhere??)

Konrad
Apr 28, 2012, 04:56 AM
That's not an Apple issue. That is you telling them, or not telling them to go the heck outside and play

If we asked my mom for fast food, candy etc the answer was no. No to the Nintendo etc. video games were something we got to do at the bowling alley when our parents had their monthly league game, if we remembered our allowance (none of that I'll pay you back at home stuff). A cell phone was something that made calls that you were when you were driving and only when you were driving. If dad dropped us off you didn't need the phone and it stayed at home

The issue is that most parents have no balls and won't say no.[COLOR="#808080"]


Of course moderation via diligence is fundamental and refusal as difficult but necessary. There is however market pressure that parents have to deal with. The other detriment is the loss of manual skills by kids, were interaction with an electronic gadget takes the place of traditional tools. iPads are by definition passive devices and more so than computers. Draw it on the computer, go get some tools and built a tree house. When you do good you can borrow my iPad for an hour.

Sackvillenb
Apr 28, 2012, 09:33 AM
Well, this really is a far better choice as far as kids are concerned, especially the younger ones. I've watched them at the Apple store (hmmm that might sound creepy), but they find the iPad much more intuitive. Which makes sense, since it's a touch based device, much like the rest of the Universe that they interact with! But it's remarkable, I constantly see really young kids (like 2 or 3 years old) who intuitively figure out how to use the iPad literally within seconds. And that's cool.

robanga
Apr 28, 2012, 10:05 AM
Very neat. I was in a store last night and the kids table was full. It won't be long until younger children expect all screens to react to touch.

charlituna
Apr 29, 2012, 10:14 AM
Of course moderation via diligence is fundamental and refusal as difficult but necessary. There is however market pressure that parents have to deal with.

Of course there's market pressure, companies like Apple, Nintendo and Doritos are all about sell sell sell.

But that still makes it your issue to say no to your kids. If you don't have the balls to do that then don't blame the companies making the goods. Blame yourself. Because it will be your fault, not the companies, that your kids are fat, lazy, greedy, have no social skills etc.

winston1236
Apr 29, 2012, 12:31 PM
Just what we need. I am in my mid 20s and my IT education was primarily word processing and office applications. I pity those kids these days who won't even get the level I got, and instead spend their time consuming videos and pictures on these devices.

The goal of teaching kids how to code (as IT classes in schools should be) seems further and further away with each story like this :(

Why? This will only make our incomes rise as the workforce shrinks.

BrotherBeagle
Apr 30, 2012, 05:27 AM
Why would everybody learn how to code?
Do doctors have to know how to code?
Do cab drivers have to know how to code?
Etc.

Future doctors have biology, chemistry, anatomy.
Future cab drivers have driver's ed.
Future coders have Youtube hour.

Very neat. I was in a store last night and the kids table was full. It won't be long until younger children expect all screens to react to touch.

We're already seeing that. Young children that participate in our (rather extensive) iOS K through 2 program have been reported having to acclimate to non-touch screen devices.

spacepower7
Apr 30, 2012, 11:19 PM
If the family computer is an iPad, there goes any chance of learning to code. This is exactly what the Raspberry Pi guys are fighting against. Not saying what's right, but if you can't write code at home you won't learn how to code, and not everyone can afford multiple computing devices.

Why do all the programmers assume everybody needs to learn to code. There are many other career paths out in the world and if a technological device can inspire passion in a child, you should be happy regardless of what that leads to.

What if an iPad inspires a child to learn math, astronomy, biology etc... To become a future scientist? Maybe a childhood experience on an iPad may inspire a child to study aerospace engineering and become a NASA scientist? Maybe the coders here can write all the software to control the first manned Mars landing based on the engineering efforts of that child?

From many of the "coders" comments, it sounds like most of them don't have children. A good parent will support their child's interest (within reason) not force their own interests on a child.

I disagree with the assumption that the simplification of computing devices will result in in less tinkerers. I believe that the opposite is true, many children will have hands on experience and natural curiosity about how these devices work.

Just let the children be themselves.

Medic278
May 1, 2012, 12:39 AM
I a going to miss the iMacs I always loved playing with them when I was a child. Although I can understand why Apple went with iPads as its the future and easier to get mom and dad to buy an iPad then an iMac.

itad
May 1, 2012, 10:10 PM
Wish I had these when I was a kid!

ProVideo
May 19, 2012, 10:27 PM
http://i.imgur.com/UCuRS.jpg

tech4all
May 19, 2012, 10:37 PM
If the family computer is an iPad, there goes any chance of learning to code. This is exactly what the Raspberry Pi guys are fighting against. Not saying what's right, but if you can't write code at home you won't learn how to code, and not everyone can afford multiple computing devices.

Yea cause every career in this world requires a person to write code :rolleyes:

Besides it's highly unlikely a child who wants to eventually become a programmer of some sort will be hindered because they used an iPad as a child. If they're smart enough to write code, they're smart enough to know they need a computer to do it on. :p

KnightWRX
May 20, 2012, 05:31 AM
Besides it's highly unlikely a child who wants to eventually become a programmer of some sort will be hindered because they used an iPad as a child. If they're smart enough to write code, they're smart enough to know they need a computer to do it on. :p

A lot of programmers didn't "want to be a coder when I grow up". They discovered it through curiosity and playing on around on the family computer. That's how I got into the business. If I had had a game console as my only "family computer", I wouldn't be doing what I am doing today.

That's the whole point.

kingtj
May 20, 2012, 12:40 PM
I'm sorry, but you can't compare your past to what's going on with today's technology. I grew up in the 70's and 80's, with one of the early home computers that didn't do a whole lot unless you coded applications into it yourself, line by line, in BASIC. When more advanced computers came along and everyone standardized on pre-packaged software for most tasks (Microsoft Office, for example, or the Lotus suite before that), BASIC pretty much vanished -- and a lot of people I knew said the same thing. "Today's kids won't grow up learning to code like they used to, since computers don't even come with an instruction manual with a list of commands anymore!" But oddly enough? They still kept learning to code, in droves!

Today, most kids are playing on consoles instead of computers, but so what? Every last console game was coded first on a computer, and a certain percentage of kids who play those games are eventually going ask, "How can I make one of these things myself?" That will push them towards a home computer capable of doing the task.

Still others will learn the basic concepts of coding through some of today's games. Even popular titles like Little Big Planet, or Minecraft pocket edition for iOS encourage creating new things in the game with a toolset.


A lot of programmers didn't "want to be a coder when I grow up". They discovered it through curiosity and playing on around on the family computer. That's how I got into the business. If I had had a game console as my only "family computer", I wouldn't be doing what I am doing today.

That's the whole point.