PDA

View Full Version : Mountain Lion doesn't seem like a real 'OS' upgrade




mrsir2009
May 22, 2012, 12:25 AM
I'm not usually one to complain, but a lot of the features that Apple has listed about Mountain Lion on their website don't seem much like 'real' operating system upgrades:

iCloud - Personally I don't use iCloud much, but I was under the understanding that all that iCloud stuff was already available on Lion... I don't get what's been added to iCloud with ML.

iMessage - It's a nice feature, but it's more like an IM client app rather than an operating system feature. You should really be able to get it on the app store in the form of a messages app.

Reminders & Notes - These are really just apps, not OS features at all. You could download apps on the app store that could do exactly the same things as these apps branded as OS features.

Share Sheets - Again, it's just a feature in many ML apps. Not really part of the OS.

Gatekeeper - Seems to me like a way to try and start walling OSX off... Not sure how many people would find this useful, let alone it be an incentive to upgrade their OS.



calderone
May 22, 2012, 12:28 AM
Your understanding of apps and features is a bit broken.

Comeagain?
May 22, 2012, 12:34 AM
Just because those are the only things on the site, doesn't mean those are the only upgrades coming. And, iCloud, while not very useful for you, is very nice for some people.

vigilant
May 22, 2012, 12:47 AM
Don't think you fully understand the big picture.

1. iCloud is supported from the start of the OS release, and the hooks for it are everywhere, beyond just key-store information that makes up the bulk of what we've seen so far on the desktop if any at all.

2. Notes and Reminders are no longer crippled by their mediocre integration with mail and iCal. More likely then not there will probably be APIs that will be released that will allow developers to make calls to these system level features that are going to be deeply integrated with iCloud.

3. Sharesheets is not just built into apple applications but is a system level call that any application can use. It is also extendable to support whatever third party applications that are installed that extend it.

4. Gatekeeper is actually brilliant because it reinforces accountability for any misbehaving applications. Gatekeeper is also easily disabled for those who need that.

5. Notification Center being in here actually makes a much bigger difference on a computer then anticipated allowing you to quickly preview what emails, and messages say without having to leave the application. The fact iCloud tracks whether or not you ackowledge notifications on other devices and clear repeated ones will be a subtle thing that will be a big deal going forward.

There's other changes too, like the ability to launch launchpad, and just start typing to bring up a list of applications installed. The way video works under the hood has also been overhauled as well.

You don't have to like it, but it seems a little naive to judge a product based that you may not have messed with yet, let alone not with any apps that fully exploit its new features.

Personally, I'm eager to use an iCloud optimized version of iWork. Would be great to not have to go to the site anymore.

As a laptop user I am actually far happier with Mountain Lion then I am with Windows 8.

YMMV

freedevil
May 22, 2012, 12:16 PM
I think OP is trying to say that ML is not a game changer and is closely similar to Lion and unlike Windows 8, which touts drastic changes from Windows 7. I agree with the OP that applications are not always great features. iMessage beta runs on Lion but it will be pulled later for ML only. This makes ML special I suppose? It just seems like a cheap trick.

Jessica Lares
May 22, 2012, 12:54 PM
I think once you use it in its official form, you'll be very grateful for the changes. It's going to be amazing when installed apps get to use the Share Sheets. It's going to be amazing to not lose your notes anymore, just like it's amazing that you don't have to backup contacts to a SIM card anymore because of iCloud.

It's not the Windows 8 change, but why change something that has been working for you and your customers since the first Mac OS?

CodeBreaker
May 22, 2012, 01:10 PM
I'm not usually one to complain, but a lot of the features that Apple has listed about Mountain Lion on their website don't seem much like 'real' operating system upgrades:

iCloud - Personally I don't use iCloud much, but I was under the understanding that all that iCloud stuff was already available on Lion... I don't get what's been added to iCloud with ML.

iMessage - It's a nice feature, but it's more like an IM client app rather than an operating system feature. You should really be able to get it on the app store in the form of a messages app.

Reminders & Notes - These are really just apps, not OS features at all. You could download apps on the app store that could do exactly the same things as these apps branded as OS features.

Share Sheets - Again, it's just a feature in many ML apps. Not really part of the OS.

Gatekeeper - Seems to me like a way to try and start walling OSX off... Not sure how many people would find this useful, let alone it be an incentive to upgrade their OS.

I think OP is trying to say that ML is not a game changer and is closely similar to Lion and unlike Windows 8, which touts drastic changes from Windows 7. I agree with the OP that applications are not always great features. iMessage beta runs on Lion but it will be pulled later for ML only. This makes ML special I suppose? It just seems like a cheap trick.


That's quite true, at least till WWDC. I frankly never imagined Apple would boast about a new Mac OS X with Twitter being the main feature. I mean it's true that the user never interacts with the OS, just with the installed apps. But none of the new/updated apps bundled with ML qualify for an OS update. So far, the biggest change is GateKeeper, which perhaps may be the only real thing we are getting with ML.

PlaceofDis
May 22, 2012, 01:14 PM
people have been saying this since Snow Leopard, but its just that Apple has changed their gears on the way they release updates to the OS. It used to be every couple of years would be a huge upgrade and tons of changes, but now everything is incremental and while the features may be fewer and less wow, they're building and building each year on a solid foundation and slowly improving rather than big "WOW" factor updates. I much prefer the lower price point and smaller updates which make the upgrades much smoother too

jameslmoser
May 22, 2012, 01:17 PM
The biggest feature that Mountain Lion has going for it is that its not Lion. All the features most people here are most excited for are things that were given back to use that Lion took away.

Only time will tell if there are some unknown killer feature(s) in Mountain Lion, but the simple fact that it will include all the changes in Lion, but improves/fixes them might be enough for people to upgrade from Snow Leopard.

heisenberg123
May 22, 2012, 02:10 PM
well it wont have a real "OS" price tag either

----------

I think OP is trying to say that ML is not a game changer and is closely similar to Lion and unlike Windows 8, which touts drastic changes from Windows 7. I agree with the OP that applications are not always great features. iMessage beta runs on Lion but it will be pulled later for ML only. This makes ML special I suppose? It just seems like a cheap trick.

game changers like windows 8 will cost arond $300 not $29

Tom8
May 22, 2012, 04:19 PM
Personally, I like what ML is bringing to the table. The integration with iOS is great for people like me who have both a Mac & 2 iOS devices (iPhone & iPad) having everything in sync across devices will be a really useful for me. There could still be some other standout features that haven't been announced yet, possibly iBooks for Mac or Siri, but that's just pure speculation.

However, I can see what you mean about not seeing it as a "full" upgrade. I know it's easy to say this, but I feel (possibly) next year, if not definitely 2014 will yield the big "leap" you're looking for. After ML Apple will have completed the integration between devices that Lion started, leveraging iCloud. Then I think they can continue building upon those foundations and make breakthroughs that real "Tech people" want, such as a new File System, and possibly a new UI. I whole heartedly expect Apple already has a team busy at work on 10.9, if not the creation of it, at least the conceptualisation

Krazy Bill
May 22, 2012, 05:47 PM
...a lot of the features that Apple has listed about Mountain Lion on their website don't seem much like 'real' operating system upgrades:On the contrary oh "misguided one"...

Some here hail the reversion back to the old Expose as the second coming. :D. If the removal of a popular feature that wasn't broke, then adding it back in is part of Apple's strategy to keep you upgrading then it's really quite brilliant. :)

NJRonbo
May 22, 2012, 08:18 PM
I don't think that Mountain Lion is revolutionary in bringing any new startling eye-candy over its predecessor.

However, I can assure you that there is vast improvement in speed and performance with Mountain Lion. It feels like a much smoother, refined operating system. The new Safari is soooo much snappier than the previous.

There are little "tweaks" that I really love. One of my favorites is when downloading or transferring a file, there is a little status bar in the folder itself showing the amount of transfer time left. Also love the new notification center.

No, not revolutionary at all, that is, until you see how much smoother things run. This is the best DP I have ever used. I can just imagine how much better the final version will be.

paronga
May 22, 2012, 08:33 PM
to the people saying it's not revolutinary

go install 10.6 and ios 4 and then tell me how fun it is getting things across using itunes sync and a usb cable :rolleyes:

If we were still on snow leopard and skipped lion and went straight to ML then it would be revolutionary. But we got lion inbetween because that's how apple do things now. Fast incremental upgrades. And really, that's a great thing!

nuckinfutz
May 22, 2012, 09:03 PM
OS X is now a mature operating system.

You're simply not going to see huge groundbreaking technology added with every new version.

And from now on the really groundbreaking stuff will be buried deep within the bowels of the OS. You're not going to get excited about OpenCL advancements or big changes to AVFoundation. They are too geeky. What you will get excited about is the ability to handle media in applications better without them crapping out.

iCloud Documents in the Cloud in Lion doesn't work. None of Apple's OS X apps use it.

iWork - nada
FCPX - nada
Logic Pro - nada
Filemaker - nada
Bento -nada
iLife - nada

That should tell you that Lion has a half-baked implementation and we're finally getting prepared to see what iCloud can do.

I hope that a late seed of ML brings in Maps. I'm guessing that if ML is going to having mapping tech built in that info won't be divulged until iOS 6.0 is previewed.

I think the future big stuff will be centered around a new filesystem and hopefully some sort of nextgen scripting that will be sandbox friendly and work across OS X and iOS.

throAU
May 22, 2012, 09:07 PM
Future OS X updates are likely to be more about internal refinement and providing new APIs for applications than new shiny interface features.

the UI is mostly a solved problem.

As far as Windows 8 goes, i have the beta here and i wouldn't call it an "upgrade" either.

Its a half-baked, clumsy mish-mash of 2 different interfaces that no one wants for a desktop. If you think multi monitor support in OS X is bad (due to the way fullscreen works, which you can easily not use), try Windows 8. It feels very much like a crippled Windows 7 with marginally less RAM requirement. And RAM is about $10/gb these days, if you get ripped off.

MikhailT
May 22, 2012, 09:42 PM
Remember that Apple said that they are changing to yearly updates for OS X just like iOS.

This means that each OS X update is going to be smaller in terms of major features but it'll be more refined versions of previous update rather than a major overhaul like Leopard.

Also, everybody's moving toward smaller multiple dedicated apps rather than suite apps that has everything in it (iLife, iWork, etc). In addition to this, Apple is slowly building a powerful integrated ecosystem for those smaller apps by providing iCloud to sync data effortless between all of your devices, Share Sheets to send data between apps, and so on.

The move toward MAS and GateKeeper ensure the safety of the interactions by restricting them to apps that are reviewed at the MAS.

TennisandMusic
May 23, 2012, 02:06 AM
Remember that Apple said that they are changing to yearly updates for OS X just like iOS.

This means that each OS X update is going to be smaller in terms of major features but it'll be more refined versions of previous update rather than a major overhaul like Leopard.

Also, everybody's moving toward smaller multiple dedicated apps rather than suite apps that has everything in it (iLife, iWork, etc). In addition to this, Apple is slowly building a powerful integrated ecosystem for those smaller apps by providing iCloud to sync data effortless between all of your devices, Share Sheets to send data between apps, and so on.

The move toward MAS and GateKeeper ensure the safety of the interactions by restricting them to apps that are reviewed at the MAS.

Share sheets need to come to iOS 6, badly. This functionality already exists in Android and Windows 8 ("contracts"). Adding this to iOS 6 would be one thing that brings it's own functionality up several notches IMO. My guess is we will see it though.

JohnDoe98
May 23, 2012, 03:40 AM
I'm surprised no one mentioned Airplay Mirroring, that's a huge feature in ML imo.

Also, HiDPI mode will allow newer macs to use pretty much any resolution you might want, another huge advance imo.

I think ML will be rather impressive, though it's subtlety is not fully appreciated yet.

haravikk
May 23, 2012, 05:18 AM
I kind of agree with the OP in a way; the API for iCloud is already in Lion, so what Mountain Lion so far seems to add is better integration for Apple's apps, not really an OS level change. That may well not be entirely the case, but iCloud doesn't seem a strong enough incentive to replace the OS version when Lion's iCloud integration doesn't really seem any worse.

Notes and Reminders are definitely not OS-level features and I agree with the OP completely on this one; they're just apps, pushing them as a Mountain Lion feature does more to highlight how badly implemented they are at the moment. There's no reason why Lion users couldn't benefit from those apps.
Likewise, Messages is just a weak update to iChat. While iMessage support is nice, it's still a pretty poor IM client compared to much easier to use apps like Adium.

Share Sheets are a bit of a weak one too; as it's something a third party developer could just as easily create as a library for app-makers to include (or have their apps look for). If anything I'd rather have less social networking integration in my apps, but maybe that's just me.

Gate Keeper however I disagree with; I think it's a much more important feature than it seems at first glance. For one thing it's just deliciously simple, and yet in that simplicity suddenly your average user is no longer as likely to install apps from malicious sources or, more crucially, apps pretending to be genuine. While there's still a question as to how quickly Apple will revoke a malicious developer's signature, it's a far more elegant solution than built-in anti-virus (which requires a lot more work to maintain) or dynamic sandboxing etc.


Airplay Mirroring is a nice feature, though with Lion/Mountain Lion's still fundamentally broken multi-monitor support the shine kind of wears off pretty quick, plus it's not going to be of use to a huge number of people.

I do also agree with those waiting with baited breath for WWDC, as I've always been more interested in an OSes behind-the-scenes features, which we haven't heard a great deal about yet, so I'm still hopeful that Mountain Lion will have something of real interest to me. Currently the only feature I'm looking forward to is GUI support for multiple time machine targets, but when a simple script can do that on Lion I'm not too sure about upgrading just for that :)

MikhailT
May 23, 2012, 08:57 AM
Remember guys, there's a reason it is called Mountain Lion. It is not a major change over Lion, it's a refined version of Lion, so almost everything will be the same but just refined. It's only going to be a year since Lion was released (July 19, 2011). You can't change much in one year.

Share sheets need to come to iOS 6, badly. This functionality already exists in Android and Windows 8 ("contracts"). Adding this to iOS 6 would be one thing that brings it's own functionality up several notches IMO. My guess is we will see it though.

The basic implementation is already in iOS 5, the "Open in" sheet. iOS 6 will likely improve on this by providing more APIs for it.

Small White Car
May 23, 2012, 10:22 AM
We all used to pay hundreds of dollars to upgrade our OS every 3 or 4 years.

Apple is shifting to a new world where we all pay $30 every year. Yeah, it's gonna be different than it used to be. And that's a good thing.

ssn637
May 23, 2012, 10:26 AM
I'm pretty excited about Mountain Lion. For those of us who refused to upgrade to 10.7 there are now valid arguments for making the jump to 10.8, especially the improved battery life and refinements of Lion's features.

Of course, if you choose to take the plunge when the new MacBook Pros arrive next month you won't have any choice...

nuckinfutz
May 23, 2012, 10:38 AM
I kind of agree with the OP in a way; the API for iCloud is already in Lion, so what Mountain Lion so far seems to add is better integration for Apple's apps, not really an OS level change. That may well not be entirely the case, but iCloud doesn't seem a strong enough incentive to replace the OS version when Lion's iCloud integration doesn't really seem any worse.

Notes and Reminders are definitely not OS-level features and I agree with the OP completely on this one; they're just apps, pushing them as a Mountain Lion feature does more to highlight how badly implemented they are at the moment. There's no reason why Lion users couldn't benefit from those apps.
Likewise, Messages is just a weak update to iChat. While iMessage support is nice, it's still a pretty poor IM client compared to much easier to use apps like Adium.

Share Sheets are a bit of a weak one too; as it's something a third party developer could just as easily create as a library for app-makers to include (or have their apps look for). If anything I'd rather have less social networking integration in my apps, but maybe that's just me.

Gate Keeper however I disagree with; I think it's a much more important feature than it seems at first glance. For one thing it's just deliciously simple, and yet in that simplicity suddenly your average user is no longer as likely to install apps from malicious sources or, more crucially, apps pretending to be genuine. While there's still a question as to how quickly Apple will revoke a malicious developer's signature, it's a far more elegant solution than built-in anti-virus (which requires a lot more work to maintain) or dynamic sandboxing etc.


Airplay Mirroring is a nice feature, though with Lion/Mountain Lion's still fundamentally broken multi-monitor support the shine kind of wears off pretty quick, plus it's not going to be of use to a huge number of people.

I do also agree with those waiting with baited breath for WWDC, as I've always been more interested in an OSes behind-the-scenes features, which we haven't heard a great deal about yet, so I'm still hopeful that Mountain Lion will have something of real interest to me. Currently the only feature I'm looking forward to is GUI support for multiple time machine targets, but when a simple script can do that on Lion I'm not too sure about upgrading just for that :)

1. If you ask some developers about iCloud they'll tell you that there's not enough documentation and that some features don't work as easily as they expected. Proof positive about this is Apple's own apps which don't use documents in the cloud for the OS X versions. That should be a hint for us all that Lion's iCloud is subpar.

2. Notes in Lion still uses IMAP for syncing and doesn't support photos. Reminders is poorly crammed into iCal and uses CalDav for sync. Apple never claimed these features were revolutionary but they highlight the easy sync capabilities via iCloud. The statement "There's no reason why Lion couldn't benefit from those apps" is confusion on your part. Lion does have Reminders and Notes but they're shoehorned into awkward places and are skimpy on features. Apple cannot change mid stream in Lion and suddenly change the UI and how these apps sync.

3. Why would I want a 3rd party to do Share Sheets? What would be the value in that? Share Sheets are everywhere. In Quick Look, in the Browser and available to all OS X developers. There's no 3rd party vendor that give give developers that scope.

4. Air Play mirroring - You're wrong on the usage. Lot's of people are going to use Air Play mirroring. If I'm a presenter all I need is a TV/Projector, A wireless network an Apple TV to stream my presentation right to the screen. Me personally I wouldn't have to worry about HDMI adapters for my MBA (which works flakey with audio) to stream video content to my TV that doesn't support Air Play a la Amazon Prime streaming. Air Play on the Mac is going to be a big deal and will sell a lot of Apple TV.


I'm upgrading for

iCloud for finally cloud enabling my documents
Notification Center
Better Video support via AV Foundation
Better behaving apps via ARC
Game Center


And the bunches of little things that will make computing better.

There are really no glaring features that are missing (except for maybe iSCSI support for networking geeks). A new file system would be nice but not yet a pressing need like it will be in a few years. I think multi monitor support will not likely improve much but what we'll see is larger displays with extremely high resolution (4k)

NJRonbo
May 23, 2012, 10:44 AM
Apple is shifting to a new world where we all pay $30 every year. Yeah, it's gonna be different than it used to be. And that's a good thing.

While Microsoft still charges hundreds of dollars for their operating system every few years.

Yeah, like Apple's approach much better.

haravikk
May 23, 2012, 11:23 AM
1. If you ask some developers about iCloud they'll tell you that there's not enough documentation and that some features don't work as easily as they expected.
That's more of a case for documentation and refinements to be released for Lion, not for iCloud to be fixed in Mountain Lion, leaving Lion stuck with a subpar implementation of a supposedly integrated feature. It means app developers that want to support iCloud either have to keep using the broken Lion implementation, or migrate to Mountain Lion (too early for that). It's not a good way to fix an existing feature.

The statement "There's no reason why Lion couldn't benefit from those apps" is confusion on your part.
Not so; I'm simply agreeing with the OP that Notes, Reminders and iMessages are apps, not really OS features. They could just as easily be distributed through the Mac App Store; that's not to say I'd want them to be, but rather that they simply aren't OS features as you could just as easily release them for Lion instead of requiring an OS update.

3. Why would I want a 3rd party to do Share Sheets? What would be the value in that? Share Sheets are everywhere. In Quick Look, in the Browser and available to all OS X developers. There's no 3rd party vendor that give give developers that scope.
You're missing the point, the point is that it's a very weak feature as a reason for an OS upgrade, which is the point of the thread after all. Sure, it makes adding twitter buttons etc. a bit easier, but it's not really a feature that would encourage someone to upgrade; plenty of people might use it once it's there, but I don't know anyone that is any more or less compelled to upgrade to Mountain Lion just so they can get even less work done than ever by tweating all the time from every app they have.
It's a minor thing to have at best, and something that is more the domain of a third-party library to solve. Obviously the fact that Apple refuses to use third-party libraries is going to mean that their own solution will be more integrated. But at least with a third-party library you can just choose not to install it.

A wireless network an Apple TV
Pretty big requirements in practise; wireless networks are still incredibly flaky, and the Apple TV is still a "hobby" device. It also still doesn't change the fact that the implementation is fundamentally poor thanks to Mountain Lion retaining Lion's poor multi-monitor support. If Mountain Lion is a refinement release then that should have been #1 on the list to fix along with Mission Control, both of which are still far from refined, and as a result AirPlay support isn't going to be as easy or useful as a lot of people might like.

Better Video support via AV Foundation
Better behaving apps via ARC
AV Foundation and ARC are both available in Lion aren't they? They're not features of Mountain Lion, not unless there are as-yet-unannounced changes to these that I'm unaware of?

nuckinfutz
May 23, 2012, 02:41 PM
I think in the end if Mountain Lion doesn't offer enough value for the money then one should hold out on their upgrade.

Apple never advertises every single feature and even some that are small and not worthy of mention in an add can add significant impact to someones workflow.

vohdoun
May 23, 2012, 04:02 PM
We all used to pay hundreds of dollars to upgrade our OS every 3 or 4 years.

Apple is shifting to a new world where we all pay $30 every year. Yeah, it's gonna be different than it used to be. And that's a good thing.

Is it? after you're dropped after 1 year.

bedifferent
May 24, 2012, 09:37 AM
Is it? after you're dropped after 1 year.

That and rushing out OS X updates on a yearly basis doesn't equate to good business. Example, Lion (arguably) has had the most complaints and bugs across differing Mac systems it's rather unsettling. Yes, most have in the past waited for a .2 or .3 update, yet the .4 update still has major bugs (graphic animation errors, SMB, Open GL core doesn't even have full support for 3.x/4).

It's one thing to release iOS updates, the iPhone and iPad have been out for only a few years and most have newer models (most upgraded to the 4S from their 3GS and many simply sell their old iPhones, like myself, unlocked to pay for the difference of a new one every year). It becomes more difficult to code for older systems, and apparently instead of working on functionality to support 64-bit hardware that is a few years old, Apple is dropping support (copout). There are many more variations of Mac systems to switch to a yearly update cycle. Lion is only on .4, and Mountain Lion is on DP3.2 with a scheduled summer release (and there have been longer times between Lion updates). Plus the integration of iOS features seems half arsed, many don't have or want a trackpad (I know a few personally who want to use their mouse).

Personally, Apple should slow down on OS X updates and iOS and OS X integration. I don't want my Mac Pro and iMac desktop to become a large iPad. Some on here, and it's been a few head strong members, deem this "unavoidable/necessary advancements in OS tech" and we should "stop complaining and get used to it". Hmmm, everyone has their opinion, however many professionals in graphic design, film editing, sound, etc who make a living from using Apple systems and hardware are quickly being shown the exit leaving us to wonder, what am I going to have to do for my career if this continues? Apple has enough money to focus on consumer AND professional markets, I do not want my desktop to become consumer oriented. I've used OS X for over a decade, switching now would cost me in hardware and software updates/changes (my current gen 12-Core 5,1 Mac Pro hasn't been updated in two years).

nuckinfutz
May 24, 2012, 11:06 AM
Personally, Apple should slow down on OS X updates and iOS and OS X integration. I don't want my Mac Pro and iMac desktop to become a large iPad. Some on here, and it's been a few head strong members, deem this "unavoidable/necessary advancements in OS tech" and we should "stop complaining and get used to it". Hmmm, everyone has their opinion, however many professionals in graphic design, film editing, sound, etc who make a living from using Apple systems and hardware are quickly being shown the exit leaving us to wonder, what am I going to have to do for my career if this continues? Apple has enough money to focus on consumer AND professional markets, I do not want my desktop to become consumer oriented. I've used OS X for over a decade, switching now would cost me in hardware and software updates/changes (my current gen 12-Core 5,1 Mac Pro hasn't been updated in two years).

The very architecture of OS X lends itself to rapid evolution. There's a fine balance between driving developers crazy with huge amounts of change versus steadily easing them into change. I think a 12 month to 24 month cycle is ideal. Taking longer than that just makes for too large of a change IMO.

Apple's not going to slow down the integration and they shouldn't . iOS has a lot of room to grow and today people are buying an ecosystem not just a product so they're likely to have a Mac and then get an iOS device or vice versa. In the end the consumer wants their data accessible and in sync across these devices.

Professional and their needs is relevant but a niche. Everyday consumers swarm into Apple stores around the globe and inhale products. The size of the consumer market versus the Professional market is tantamount to Goliath vs David. If Apple Professional market disappeared overnight Apple would barely feel the loss. You're no longer the driver of the Apple ecosystem. Deal with it.

That being said Apple has done good things to support the more creative and right now we're just waiting for software applications to catch up. They didn't have to replace Quicktime with a new media foundation but they did.

I don't care how you say it but iCloud and iOS integration is paramount to Apple's future. Call it iOSification or whatever you want but the key is taking care of end user data across devices now and that's a huge challenge and a worthy one.

bedifferent
May 24, 2012, 11:21 AM
If Apple Professional market disappeared overnight Apple would barely feel the loss. You're no longer the driver of the Apple ecosystem. Deal with it.

Thanks. I appreciate your very objective analysis. "Deal with it". I'll tell that to the many businesses that pump hundreds of thousands of dollars into Apple's hardware and software licenses/upgrades. They exist, this myth that it's a small, niche market is erroneous, who do you think drove Apple sales when Jobs evaluated Apple's product lines in 1997 by focusing on four segments: Consumer, Professional, Desktops, Notebooks.

That market, along with the iPod, drove Apple to begin R&D on future products. PowerMac's were affordable, and they had a great lineup of 3 different sized CCFL LCD's with the 30" being top notch. There is a huge demand from professionals and high end consumers for a mid-tower that allows for additional components and add-ons. As PowerMac's did not impact iMac sales (two very different market targets), it would become a MORE profitable segment (Apple has billions, and they wouldn't keep developing Pro-Apps and Mac Pro's if there was no financial gain). iDevices and iOS is killing professional interest in Apple, even my friends at Cupertino who use Mac Pro's (one working in Pro-Apps) are frustrated by this lack of focus, and that's stating a lot.

So while you may not benefit from such, there are many who would. :)

(down-voting, it's passive aggressive and unproductive. Up-vote comments that are beneficial, down-voting simply results in inflaming those who may have helpful comments just because you may not agree, which can be expressed in a civil, respectful response. Arn has been considering simply allowing comments to be up voted only, which I believe would be hugely beneficial who helping others and lessening arguments that are increasing on MacRumors :) )

haravikk
May 24, 2012, 11:44 AM
If Apple Professional market disappeared overnight Apple would barely feel the loss
It's going to be hard to sell people on the idea of the App Store if no-one can use their Macs to make apps :)

To support developers Apple pretty much has to support other professional nichés at the same time since they all need good performance, reliability, and crucially, access to something other than a trackpad :)

dyn
May 24, 2012, 12:31 PM
Thanks. I appreciate your very objective analysis. "Deal with it". I'll tell that to the many businesses that pump hundreds of thousands of dollars into Apple's hardware and software licenses/upgrades. They exist, this myth that it's a small, niche market is erroneous, who do you think drove Apple sales when Jobs evaluated Apple's product lines in 1997 by focusing on four segments: Consumer, Professional, Desktops, Notebooks.

Whatever worked in the past does not necessarily work in the future and vice versa! In the past they sold desktops like no tomorrow, today it is very hard to do that. In the past tablets did not sell well, it was a segment that nearly died out. Today tablets are hot and the main reason why laptops/desktop are sold less than before.

The other thing you don't seem to be getting is the point the person you are replying to is trying to make. Apple's audience has changed. They are selling quite a lot more consumer products than their professional products. Not very strange since a lot of companies buy something and stick for it for 3 to even 6 years. If a company sees that selling consumer products is more profitable it makes a lot of sense that they will be targeting that audience more than the other audiences.

We humans used to write things down on paper with a fountain pen. Penmanship was common back in the days. Now it is nearly extinct due to computers. We can't reverse that so we have no other option than to live with it whether we like it or not. Sometimes changes are inevitable and irreversible and we can do nothing about them. You can do 2 things: complain like there is tomorrow or move along (aka use it or switch to something else). I'm worried about the changes Apple is making as well as what my government is doing. The problem is that I as a person can do little to nothing about it. So yes, I have to deal with it and no I don't quite like that.

Arn has been considering simply allowing comments to be up voted only, which I believe would be hugely beneficial who helping others and lessening arguments that are increasing on MacRumors :) )
I think the voting system should be changed to something like that too. On the FreeBSD forums they use something like this, it is actually a "thank you" system where you can thank somebody for posting something valuable. Also allows for quickly going through topics looking for solutions to your problem!

gumblecosby
May 24, 2012, 12:58 PM
Thanks. I appreciate your very objective analysis. "Deal with it". I'll tell that to the many businesses that pump hundreds of thousands of dollars into Apple's hardware and software licenses/upgrades. They exist, this myth that it's a small, niche market is erroneous, who do you think drove Apple sales when Jobs evaluated Apple's product lines in 1997 by focusing on four segments: Consumer, Professional, Desktops, Notebooks.

That market, along with the iPod, drove Apple to begin R&D on future products. PowerMac's were affordable, and they had a great lineup of 3 different sized CCFL LCD's with the 30" being top notch. There is a huge demand from professionals and high end consumers for a mid-tower that allows for additional components and add-ons. As PowerMac's did not impact iMac sales (two very different market targets), it would become a MORE profitable segment (Apple has billions, and they wouldn't keep developing Pro-Apps and Mac Pro's if there was no financial gain). iDevices and iOS is killing professional interest in Apple, even my friends at Cupertino who use Mac Pro's (one working in Pro-Apps) are frustrated by this lack of focus, and that's stating a lot.

So while you may not benefit from such, there are many who would. :)

(down-voting, it's passive aggressive and unproductive. Up-vote comments that are beneficial, down-voting simply results in inflaming those who may have helpful comments just because you may not agree, which can be expressed in a civil, respectful response. Arn has been considering simply allowing comments to be up voted only, which I believe would be hugely beneficial who helping others and lessening arguments that are increasing on MacRumors :) )

Hopefully that comment system comes in, though to be honest there is no real need for up-voting. Good comments will be verbally appreciated anyway.

Regarding your discussion about apples professional side, dont you feel it is impossible for Apple to abandon this market. After all, those ipad apps wont build themselves and a mac app store twitter app will hardly push technological advances in Mac OS X compared to a full on commercial program that eats all those cores for breakfast.

nuckinfutz
May 24, 2012, 01:53 PM
Let it be known that I don't think Apple is abandoning that Pro market.

They've done good work in promoting OpenGL even if Lion isn't exactly the most stellar example.

I think AV Foundation is going to enable Final Cut Pro X to do things that former versions couldn't dream about and it will do it at pricing that is accessible for most.

The Mac Pro isn't dead. It should see its most significant form factor change in a half decade.

OS X development is alive and well and it only makes sense to intertwine OS X and iOS where it makes sense. Success for one doesn't mean the other loses despite the protestations of some.

slapple
May 24, 2012, 02:09 PM
If Mountain Lion includes the rumored resolution independence, then that by itself will be worth the upgrade. If not, then I might not upgrade.

Cougarcat
May 24, 2012, 02:36 PM
If Mountain Lion includes the rumored resolution independence, then that by itself will be worth the upgrade. If not, then I might not upgrade.

It won't, they are doing HiDPI mode instead, which won't be useful unless you have a Retina Mac.

slapple
May 24, 2012, 02:47 PM
It won't, they are doing HiDPI mode instead, which won't be useful unless you have a Retina Mac.

One of the rumors recently said that they were going to have 3 sizes (small, big, and optimal) for the icons (and presumably fonts), so I'm hoping that means resolution independence.

bedifferent
May 24, 2012, 04:10 PM
Let it be known that I don't think Apple is abandoning that Pro market.

They've done good work in promoting OpenGL even if Lion isn't exactly the most stellar example.

I think AV Foundation is going to enable Final Cut Pro X to do things that former versions couldn't dream about and it will do it at pricing that is accessible for most.

The Mac Pro isn't dead. It should see its most significant form factor change in a half decade.

OS X development is alive and well and it only makes sense to intertwine OS X and iOS where it makes sense. Success for one doesn't mean the other loses despite the protestations of some.

Agreed. I suppose I'm just disappointed as I make my living with intensive app's such as HD rendering in FCP7 and X (still getting used to X). I completely understand that Apple is going after the consumer market. The R&D for the iPad in 2004 lead to the commercial launch of the iPhone, a brilliant cross-platform move to give Windows OS users a taste of Apple's products. This lead to Joe-sumers, college students and fashionista's becoming the dominant Apple user. However, part of this is Apple's focus. Stating this is a "post-PC era" is ignorant, as desktop/power systems are in demand.

As I stated, I know Apple Cupertino employees who are frustrated by the lack of a reasonable tower and with Apple's neglect in the Mac Pro. Just because Apple is ignoring a segment doesn't mean it is a small niche or not profitable. Apple can/should focus on markets, as Steve did when he revamped their products. High end work isn't efficient on MacBook Pro's. I have a 12-Core current gen Mac Pro and a current gen 15" i5 MacBook Pro. Film editing on the MacBook Pro is awful, the time it takes is horrendous compared to my Mac Pro and time is money for clients/projects. It's a great system, but for heavy work notebooks and iPads just don't cut it.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, Apple made their bank in focusing on the consumer market. The reason iPad's and MacBook's took off was two fold; iPad's aren't as expensive and suit the basic needs of many consumers needs and Apple marketing is genius. iMac's are great for consumers, however pro's are taking issue with its lack of upgradability. Only the RAM is user upgradable. I used to work behind the Genius Bar, around 2005-2007, just as the iPhone was released. Working on iMac's is a PITA, and then we mostly had PowerMac G5's and iMac's.

Also, working in IT/communication as a self proprietor, small-large businesses are moving away from iMacs. Why? Because if any part fails, the entire system needs to be benched for repairs, hindering workflow. If a tower part fails, a graphics card, HDD, just swap it out, and done. Also many editors, designer's, architects, photographers do not want the display's and prefer their own. This isn't an option for iMac's. You have to understand, there are a lot of people who use(d) PowerMac's. They were priced around $1500+ and allowed you to get one of the 3 CCFL ACD's for the same price as a base Mac Pro. When Apple switched to Intel, Xeon server processors added $1000 or more. Thus, it's either an iMac that is limiting in options and if it breaks, your work is screwed, or dishing out more for a tower. A mid-tower with a Core i7 processor with PCIe, USB, 2 internal HDD's priced around what PowerMac's cost has been a demand for many, and wouldn't eat into iMac sales (as the PowerMac's did not).

I understand the consumer market is huge, but that doesn't mean that professionals and power systems are dying. Far from it, they're dying for Apple and pushing others to now move to different systems. You can't make a positive correlation with Apple's market strategy by stating "desktops are done" just because one company has changed their focus. They drew more consumers in with iPhone's, iPad's and MacBook Pro's, and turned their backs on professionals. Heck, when Jobs bought Shake (a once GREAT pro-App) in 2004, he told a room full of professionals "Your input is no longer needed". That's enough right there to tell you where Jobs wanted to take Apple. Good for them. Doesn't mean the pro-market is all of a sudden dead because Apple claims it is. I'm tired of some people jumping to that conclusion.

So ten years of working with Apple systems, and I'm worried about where Apple is taking us (and there are a lot of us).

(and I only bad some sentences in bold to skim it as it's long, not to emphasize points, so don't take it like that, just wanted to make it easier to read my long *** post lol)

I think the voting system should be changed to something like that too. On the FreeBSD forums they use something like this, it is actually a "thank you" system where you can thank somebody for posting something valuable. Also allows for quickly going through topics looking for solutions to your problem!

Agreed, especially your last point :)

Cougarcat
May 24, 2012, 06:43 PM
One of the rumors recently said that they were going to have 3 sizes (small, big, and optimal) for the icons (and presumably fonts), so I'm hoping that means resolution independence.

That doesn't have anything to do with resolution independence. The rumor, if true, will allow you to set three resolutions in Displays.

You can already turn HiDPI on in Lion, (http://arstechnica.com/apple/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7/14/#hi-dpi) and there is evidence in ML (http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/03/signs-in-mountain-lion-point-to-retina-display-coming-this-summer/)that they are adding 2x icons.

It's pretty obvious at this point they are going the HiDPI route rather than resolution independence, and it fits in with what they've already been doing on iOS.

TennisandMusic
May 24, 2012, 08:37 PM
Agreed. I suppose I'm just disappointed as I make my living with intensive app's such as HD rendering in FCP7 and X (still getting used to X). I completely understand that Apple is going after the consumer market. The R&D for the iPad in 2004 lead to the commercial launch of the iPhone, a brilliant cross-platform move to give Windows OS users a taste of Apple's products. This lead to Joe-sumers, college students and fashionista's becoming the dominant Apple user. However, part of this is Apple's focus. Stating this is a "post-PC era" is ignorant, as desktop/power systems are in demand.

As I stated, I know Apple Cupertino employees who are frustrated by the lack of a reasonable tower and with Apple's neglect in the Mac Pro. Just because Apple is ignoring a segment doesn't mean it is a small niche or not profitable. Apple can/should focus on markets, as Steve did when he revamped their products. High end work isn't efficient on MacBook Pro's. I have a 12-Core current gen Mac Pro and a current gen 15" i5 MacBook Pro. Film editing on the MacBook Pro is awful, the time it takes is horrendous compared to my Mac Pro and time is money for clients/projects. It's a great system, but for heavy work notebooks and iPads just don't cut it.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, Apple made their bank in focusing on the consumer market. The reason iPad's and MacBook's took off was two fold; iPad's aren't as expensive and suit the basic needs of many consumers needs and Apple marketing is genius. iMac's are great for consumers, however pro's are taking issue with its lack of upgradability. Only the RAM is user upgradable. I used to work behind the Genius Bar, around 2005-2007, just as the iPhone was released. Working on iMac's is a PITA, and then we mostly had PowerMac G5's and iMac's.

Also, working in IT/communication as a self proprietor, small-large businesses are moving away from iMacs. Why? Because if any part fails, the entire system needs to be benched for repairs, hindering workflow. If a tower part fails, a graphics card, HDD, just swap it out, and done. Also many editors, designer's, architects, photographers do not want the display's and prefer their own. This isn't an option for iMac's. You have to understand, there are a lot of people who use(d) PowerMac's. They were priced around $1500+ and allowed you to get one of the 3 CCFL ACD's for the same price as a base Mac Pro. When Apple switched to Intel, Xeon server processors added $1000 or more. Thus, it's either an iMac that is limiting in options and if it breaks, your work is screwed, or dishing out more for a tower. A mid-tower with a Core i7 processor with PCIe, USB, 2 internal HDD's priced around what PowerMac's cost has been a demand for many, and wouldn't eat into iMac sales (as the PowerMac's did not).

I understand the consumer market is huge, but that doesn't mean that professionals and power systems are dying. Far from it, they're dying for Apple and pushing others to now move to different systems. You can't make a positive correlation with Apple's market strategy by stating "desktops are done" just because one company has changed their focus. They drew more consumers in with iPhone's, iPad's and MacBook Pro's, and turned their backs on professionals. Heck, when Jobs bought Shake (a once GREAT pro-App) in 2004, he told a room full of professionals "Your input is no longer needed". That's enough right there to tell you where Jobs wanted to take Apple. Good for them. Doesn't mean the pro-market is all of a sudden dead because Apple claims it is. I'm tired of some people jumping to that conclusion.

So ten years of working with Apple systems, and I'm worried about where Apple is taking us (and there are a lot of us).

(and I only bad some sentences in bold to skim it as it's long, not to emphasize points, so don't take it like that, just wanted to make it easier to read my long *** post lol)



Agreed, especially your last point :)

Fantastic post. It is great to see there are other users that are big Apple fans, but also quite reasoned and level headed.

haravikk
May 25, 2012, 05:42 AM
So ten years of working with Apple systems, and I'm worried about where Apple is taking us (and there are a lot of us).
Just wanted to clarify that I'm in much the same boat; I don't do movie editing though I do do some 3d as a hobby. However, my main interest is in programming as that's where I make my money, and being able to compile a huge project in a few minutes instead of an hour (or several hours) is a big deal for me, as if I didn't have my Mac Pro (early 2008 8-core for me) then I'd never get any iOS or Mac development done at all, as it's not something I can do on another platform, and none of the other Mac range are any good.

bedifferent
May 25, 2012, 09:32 AM
Fantastic post. It is great to see there are other users that are big Apple fans, but also quite reasoned and level headed.

QFT. He hit the nail on the head. If Apple doesn't update their Mac Pro and Pro-Apps enough, it's either a Hackint0sh or Windows (ugh). I get that their consumer products are a hit with every schmor's but seriously, flat out pushing us out the exit (and let's be clear here, Apple has been slowly doing so) is a slap in the face to us, the one's who supported Apple when they were down and out, and gave them the money to get into mobile devices with development. It's inexcusable, especially with their billions. Get it together (and while you're at it, make a stable OS X and slow it dooooown on the iOS stuff, I don't mind it but it's taking focus away from Open GL, a new Finder (which it desperately needs as HFS+ is wore thin), better displays like you used to have (they're meant for notebooks, we have to get extension cables just to reach our systems), and more work on PROFESSIONAL Apps, getting tired of Facebook (and please, I don't know one professional who uses Facebook with Aperture, not one).

=]

Krazy Bill
May 25, 2012, 11:23 AM
I'll tell that to the many businesses that pump hundreds of thousands of dollars into Apple's hardware and software licenses/upgrades. They exist, this myth that it's a small, niche market is erroneous,

What is mythical about a tiny 5-8% OSX overall market penetration? (depending on who you read). Most of which are consumers? In business, I travel the U.S. all the time. Other than the iPhone/iPad, very seldom do I see any evidence of any kind of Mac in the work place.

Apple is now a general consumer company providing great devices for kids, college students and soccer moms. Ironically, MS Office is the only thing that keeps Apple (and OSX specifically) on the fringe of usability in the corporate world.

Yamcha
May 25, 2012, 11:26 AM
I don't think It's supposed to be a significant upgrade, If I remember correctly Apple is looking to make annual Mac OSX updates.. If that is the case we'll probably only be seeing incremental updates..

Having said that though even If the features on Mountain Lion aren't that relevant to you I'd personally upgrade for the performance boost alone, and not to mention all choppy animations have been resolved as well..

haravikk
May 25, 2012, 11:43 AM
very seldom do I see any evidence of any kind of Mac in the work place.
I dunno if they ever got far with big corporations, but they were doing pretty well in small business setups. But ditching the XServe makes running Mac networks for small business a strange choice; I mean, the "server" Mac Pro is perfectly capable, but it's far more wasteful than a proper server machine. Not that OS X Server has ever really give anyone a serious reason to use a Mac to run their network; it's pretty annoying to use, and also pretty shocking when Unix/Linux have better GUI options for server management :)

The fact is though that the more Apple ignore the more professional market, the less likely they are to ever get any further into them. If Apple were to innovate as much on business computing I'm sure they could carve out a bigger chunk of that sector. The lack of any real effort on OS X servers is a bit of an oversight, especially with business users increasingly having Apple's iOS or laptop products; I'm sure business would love to have more ways to manage and work with those devices.

Business users are after all consumers too. They might not have the same turnaround on devices as iPhone users that upgrade at a moment's notice, but they still have good turnaround on devices. I mean someone mention 3-6 years earlier, but then, how many consumers go out and buy new home computers at that pace? I know plenty of people still struggling along with machines at least that old.

I could understand Apple wanting to back out of a sector that isn't profitable, but desktop computers, including ones at a professional level, are far from unprofitable. Apple easily has the resources to keep the Mac Pro line up to date; if they actually made a better show at it then sales of them could be growing instead of declining amidst uncertainty as to whether Apple even cares anymore.

nuckinfutz
May 25, 2012, 12:16 PM
QFT. He hit the nail on the head. If Apple doesn't update their Mac Pro and Pro-Apps enough, it's either a Hackint0sh or Windows (ugh). I get that their consumer products are a hit with every schmor's but seriously, flat out pushing us out the exit (and let's be clear here, Apple has been slowly doing so) is a slap in the face to us, the one's who supported Apple when they were down and out, and gave them the money to get into mobile devices with development. It's inexcusable, especially with their billions. Get it together (and while you're at it, make a stable OS X and slow it dooooown on the iOS stuff, I don't mind it but it's taking focus away from Open GL, a new Finder (which it desperately needs as HFS+ is wore thin),
=]

Dude you're sounding a bit like a ranting mad man. Enough with the melodramatic "We supported Apple when they were down and out" No. You gave Apple money and they gave you an Apple product. That wasn't a donation chief you got property from your money.

Next how in the world would iOS stuff have anything to do with slowing OS X down?

Lastly why would you assume the team that works on iCloud is the same team that works on OpenGL?

Folks ...please try to rant less and read more. It just may help you create more informative posts.

Krazy Bill
May 25, 2012, 12:53 PM
I could understand Apple wanting to back out of a sector that isn't profitable, but desktop computers, including ones at a professional level, are far from unprofitable.If that's all a company did then I'd agree. But given that resources are limited (yes, even Apple's), you dedicate the bulk of those resources to the folks that butter your bread.

Not sure if the Mac Pro has any more life in it. No further development for this thing sure doesn't seem to bother Apple since their Server line went by the wayside.

It's all moot anyway as the writing is on the wall. The "mimicking" of iOS by Lion is a clear indicator of what OSX 11 will look and work like and it certainly won't have the interests of the business community at heart. Personally I love the engineering of Apple's hardware. I might just switch to a bootcamped Windows 8 machine one day if the Apple drivers are decent.

bedifferent
May 25, 2012, 05:22 PM
Dude you're sounding a bit like a ranting mad man. Enough with the melodramatic "We supported Apple when they were down and out" No. You gave Apple money and they gave you an Apple product. That wasn't a donation chief you got property from your money.

Next how in the world would iOS stuff have anything to do with slowing OS X down?

Lastly why would you assume the team that works on iCloud is the same team that works on OpenGL?

Folks ...please try to rant less and read more. It just may help you create more informative posts.

That's a tad ironic given some of the posts from you ;)

(and I didn't take his post as a "melodramatic" rant)

nuckinfutz
May 25, 2012, 06:09 PM
That's a tad ironic given some of the posts from you ;)

(and I didn't take his post as a "melodramatic" rant)

I'm a big boy who's not afraid to to mix it up ...or give credit to good arguments. But there's no way in hell you're going to find a post of mine where i'm off the target to the point of postulating that iOS features are slowing OS X down. That's asinine but could be forgiven but then we got this gem

I don't mind it but it's taking focus away from Open GL, a new Finder (which it desperately needs as HFS+ is wore thin)

No shiza sherlock. The whole point of an OS update is to usher in new features and bug fixes and API. OpenGL is so far removed from Cloud engineering you're generally not going to find engineers that do both. So there's no way that work on iCloud somehow prevents OpenGL from moving forward.


The problem with the MR forums is that very few informative and intelligent members stick around because they don't have time to fight with people that continuously have emotional outbursts in a forum. If a person relatively knows what they are talking about their argument is generally cogent.

Explain to me where the cogent argument is for iOS slowing down OS X and iCloud slowing down OpenGL. Please.

TennisandMusic
May 25, 2012, 07:31 PM
I'm a big boy who's not afraid to to mix it up ...or give credit to good arguments. But there's no way in hell you're going to find a post of mine where i'm off the target to the point of postulating that iOS features are slowing OS X down. That's asinine but could be forgiven but then we got this gem



No shiza sherlock. The whole point of an OS update is to usher in new features and bug fixes and API. OpenGL is so far removed from Cloud engineering you're generally not going to find engineers that do both. So there's no way that work on iCloud somehow prevents OpenGL from moving forward.


The problem with the MR forums is that very few informative and intelligent members stick around because they don't have time to fight with people that continuously have emotional outbursts in a forum. If a person relatively knows what they are talking about their argument is generally cogent.

Explain to me where the cogent argument is for iOS slowing down OS X and iCloud slowing down OpenGL. Please.

Actually this is exactly what happens. When the iPhone was first released, Leopard was delayed because they moved engineers from OSX to iOS. I think it's fairly well known that Apple doesn't create "teams" necessarily, but shuffles people around for whatever is currently suiting them. Of course that isn't STRICTLY true in that they have just one group moving around, but it's pretty well documented that OSX has been on the backburner for awhile because of iOS. In fact, I think it was stated in a recent book about the internals of Apple that people who work on OSX are seen as second rate in the company. What kind of way is that to treat people and a product? That might be changing with Jobs gone though, who knows.

As a side note, go look at the features Leopard added, now go compare those to what Mountain Lion is preparing to add. Then try and say where the focus of the company lies. :p

bedifferent
May 25, 2012, 11:07 PM
Actually this is exactly what happens. When the iPhone was first released, Leopard was delayed because they moved engineers from OSX to iOS. I think it's fairly well known that Apple doesn't create "teams" necessarily, but shuffles people around for whatever is currently suiting them. Of course that isn't STRICTLY true in that they have just one group moving around, but it's pretty well documented that OSX has been on the backburner for awhile because of iOS. In fact, I think it was stated in a recent book about the internals of Apple that people who work on OSX are seen as second rate in the company. What kind of way is that to treat people and a product? That might be changing with Jobs gone though, who knows.

As a side note, go look at the features Leopard added, now go compare those to what Mountain Lion is preparing to add. Then try and say where the focus of the company lies. :p

Exactly. Jobs was notorious for not hiring more engineers but moving them between departments which is exactly what happened with OS X 10.5. Having worked for Cupertino, I know what I speak of and I don't appreciate someone on this thread strong arming and insulting people as they do not agree with their opinion. It simply makes them appear immature.

As for iOS impeding OS X functionality, do you really want to go down that road? It's a shame that SunSystems dropped out as 10.5 beta's had ZFS implementation. In fact, I still have a few of them. I especially liked "Answering Machine" in iChat for Leopard, as it allowed users to leave a video away message and others to record one. That is an iOS-esque feature I could agree with in iMessage as most iDevices have FaceTime capabilities. Now, Open GL support is a joke with OS X, no question about it. Lion is riddled with bugs, in fact most of my ex-colleagues are frustrated by Apple managements lack of focus on polishing 10.7 before throwing out 10.8. My friend works in the Pro-Apps department as a design consultant for Final Cut Pro X for the past two years (she is a documentary film maker). Her team was frustrated as engineers fought film makers/editors/etc on most of their recommendations, upper Apple management barely over saw the engineers and much of Apple's money was/is being funneled into iOS departments. The Pro-Apps department has seen a steady drop in funding even BEFORE the iPhone was released, and well before Apple saw it's rise into iOS/mobile devices.

Further, Apple dropped their 3 well received CCFL LCD's for 1 stripped down LED LCD iMac panel, with cables too short for their Mac Pro. Apple's display's were a big profit segment for them as many pro's used them with their Mac's as they required little to no third party/Spyder calibrating, well made IPS panels unlike the notorious LED LCD banding and bleeding in their current displays. I have 2 24" LED LCD's, I went through five before getting displays that didn't have uneven color, brightness and bleeding issues and dead pixels. Thankfully the one's I have are great, but it is a shame Apple is pushing them as notebook displays, leaving many who used a 20", 23" or 30" display moving on to EIZO or such.

Back to the OS. iCloud integration, fantastic, I have always pushed .Mac/MobileMe (I've never experienced issues myself although I know many have) and I love that Apple is integrating it further. I do hope the rumors of a Keychain syncing and Documents revamp being more akin to iDisk are true; I was disappointed when Apple dropped some MobileMe features. Time will tell. I do like "AirDrop"'s usage of Ad-Hoc, finally and well done. SMB was fixed and improved, and I do like the dock.

I do not like "Mission Control" for reasons that have been discussed on MacRumors ad nauseam. I can appreciate its concept; an attempt to incorporate multi-tasking features into one, full featured system app. However, it was not well thought out. Spaces and Exposé in previous OS X variants was much more efficient, less memory/graphics intensive and had more options ("All Windows" Exposé is finally back by unchecking "Group windows by application"), but iOS Spaces is terrible. Having to move to each desktop, right clicking on an app - assuming it's in your Dock - then selecting the option for that app, and repeating for each desktop is ludicrous and cumbersome, it's rather amusing trying to teach it to the average consumer. Previously app's could be assigned to each desktop in "Spaces"system preferences. Before, I always knew what desktop I was in by the menubar indicator, and I didn't have to swipe between my 9+ desktops to find a Safari page, Mail app, Final Cut Pro and A.E. apps, I knew exactly where they were by assignment and menubar indicator. If a window is mistakenly moved to the wrong desktop, you didn't have to leave the Spaces "grid" to move it again, just grab it, move it, grab as many windows as you want and move them where ever, back and forth, without ever leaving. Novel, eh? Lion requires more keystrokes or moving to the desktop in order to move that window again as you can not grab it from one of the desktops at the top of "Mission Control" - wtf? Thankfully so many complained that Stephen Sykes developed "ReSpaceApp", now "TotalSpaces" and owned by BinaryAge, the company that makes "Total Finder". "TotalSpaces" is a great addition that fixes many "Mission Control" user interface issues. I do not like Contacts, it looks silly and out of line with the sleek OS X graphics - as does the Calendar app (but I do appreciate the dropping of "i" in the app's, sounds more professional).

Launchpad, I'll never use it. Stacks on dock, much better. "Time Machine" needs improvements. I am disappointed that iPhoto recovery was removed, and support for USB attached storage on Apple routers is lacking/sometimes doesn't work. "Back to my Mac" is useless unless you're, well, on another Mac, and iDevices have not been even been fully incorporated with it, if at all. USB 3.0 is FINALLY coming with Ivy Bridge (though I've had it in my Mac Pro with a CalDigit PCIe card for over a year), SATA II is dated, get on the boat with III/6G Apple! Lion's use of memory is awful, and ML isn't much better with memory management (and don't state if you have the RAM it should be used, as that's complete nonsense). Basic Apple app's (Safari, Calendar, iTunes) generally use 30-40% of my 16GB DDR3, when I open Final Cut Pro 10.0.4 it jumps a great deal. "Snow Leopard" was much, much better, which is why I still have it running on my second SSD. No TRIM support for third party SSD's, garbage collection could use better tweaking. I've also noticed, for the first time in a journaled structure, that disk fragmentation has increased with 10.7/8. Course it's not an issue with OS X, however it makes one wonder how files are being written/handled.

Multiple display support has been hindered with Apple's focus on single display systems in OS X 10.7/8; many would like to use Full Screen on each display as it maximizes desktop real estate, having one full screen app disengages the other display(s) completely. Not good, and maximizing the window isn't the same as full screen.

Oh, and iMac's, great design but bad for businesses/work. If any part on that system goes, it needs to be taken in and benched for service which is [on average] at least a week. A tower/Mac Pro, if a component fries swap it out; hard drive/graphics card/fan(s)/RAM DIMM/optical drive - just replace it. No work/time lost - oh, and you can add PCIe cards, replace the graphics card with a newer model, easily replace/upgrade RAM and HDD's - all impeccably designed and easy for even the average Joe. Having worked on iMac's, wow, brilliant design but a huge pain to remove the glass, LED panel, and any component that needs replacing. The logic board is buried under the power supply lines - everything connects to it above the board. It's a tight fit that requires a clean room and a lot of time and patience.

I could go on and on, but these points have been addressed. I do not mind iOS integration, but not at the expense of OS X stability/improvements and Pro hardware. As for someone claiming people don't respond but rather rant and then do not continue the discussion thus they're "ignorant", not only is that a personal insult to a complete stranger it's a completely false assumption of someone's knowledge based on a few short posts. I could go back and forth here but I've learned over the years it serves no other purpose other than to make some flex their OS X ego's by putting others down and refusing to acknowledge that they, them, that person, may have different needs than their own, yet attempt to invalidate their valid, personal needs/opinions. I have acknowledged where OS X works, and where it doesn't, thus I am not "trolling" or "ranting", I have written a long response to fully address an individuals requests and to assuage their doubts on my knowledge.

On that note, I wish you all a pleasant holiday weekend. Be safe :).

bedifferent
May 25, 2012, 11:11 PM
Folks ...please try to rant less and read more. It just may help you create more informative posts.

Wow, you really need to take your own advice.

nuckinfutz
May 25, 2012, 11:51 PM
Wow, you really need to take your own advice.

I'll be glad to when you can show me a post of mine with the same banal logic you've displayed in this thread.

----------

Actually this is exactly what happens. When the iPhone was first released, Leopard was delayed because they moved engineers from OSX to iOS. I think it's fairly well known that Apple doesn't create "teams" necessarily, but shuffles people around for whatever is currently suiting them. Of course that isn't STRICTLY true in that they have just one group moving around, but it's pretty well documented that OSX has been on the backburner for awhile because of iOS. In fact, I think it was stated in a recent book about the internals of Apple that people who work on OSX are seen as second rate in the company. What kind of way is that to treat people and a product? That might be changing with Jobs gone though, who knows.

As a side note, go look at the features Leopard added, now go compare those to what Mountain Lion is preparing to add. Then try and say where the focus of the company lies. :p

iOS = OS X minus Carbon so it's understandable how engineers would be pulled. They are well versed in the necessary frameworks. I also think the iWork engineers were busy getting iWork up to speed in iOS and that likely has delayed iWork on Mac. It's a given that engineers get assigned to different projects so long as the engineer knows the frameworks.

iCloud and other sync heavy stuff is vastly different than OpenGL so there's less of a chance of engineer swapping. Now if someone said the OpenGL guys were pulled to work on a new revision of Quartz that'd be more believable.

bedifferent
May 25, 2012, 11:53 PM
I'll be glad to when you can show me a post of mine with the same banal logic you've displayed in this thread.

What are you carrying on about? I had one small post, with points that have already been addressed at length by others on this thread and acknowledged by yourself. Why would I waste my time with someone who clearly has demonstrated a need in condescending others without even acknowledging that they may have a valid "opinion"? Further, why would I spend time going through my "opinions" point by point when it means absolutely nothing to you based on your history in this thread? Others have already stated their opinions, with valid points, yet you seem to gloss over them or simply dismiss them. Further, you're making huge assumptions about my knowledge based on one post. You're just trying to stroke your ego here, and I'm not biting. Simply stated, I'm mooooving on. =]

Oh, and TennisandMusic is spot on, it had nothing to do with iOS = OS X -Carbon, in fact Leopard and Snow Leopard were still in Carbon and slowly moving to Cocoa. Some of Lion is still in Carbon. Also, the PPC to Intel prep work/coding was in the work years before yet needed polishing with Leopard that was hindered by iOS development, thus delaying its much touted release twice to an October release as Apple had so little engineers employed they could not meet the deadline's for iOS/iPhone and OS X releases. Jobs was notorious for wanting a small engineering department, in part due to his paranoia of tech information, but also his desire in knowing everyone in those departments intimately, almost too intimately. It would have benefitted Apple, and still would, had they simply expanded their engineer base in order for product development to meet the tremendous increase of Apple systems.

nuckinfutz
May 26, 2012, 12:08 AM
I could go on and on, but these points have been addressed. I do not mind iOS integration, but not at the expense of OS X stability/improvements and Pro hardware. As for someone claiming people don't respond but rather rant and then do not continue the discussion thus they're "ignorant", not only is that a personal insult to a complete stranger it's a completely false assumption of someone's knowledge based on a few short posts. I could go back and forth here but I've learned over the years it serves no other purpose other than to make some flex their OS X ego's by putting others down and refusing to acknowledge that they, them, that person, may have different needs than their own, yet attempt to invalidate their valid, personal needs/opinions. I have acknowledged where OS X works, and where it doesn't, thus I am not "trolling" or "ranting", I have written a long response to fully address an individuals requests and to assuage their doubts on my knowledge.

On that note, I wish you all a pleasant holiday weekend. Be safe :).



People are not ignorant sometimes some points are. This is a forum where there will always be a variety of opposing viewpoints. I do enjoy reading them or I wouldn't be here. Sometimes I rip on a post or point that you may have but I would support another one of your points with the same intensity.

I'm going to agree with 6core more than I disagree. We're both Mac users passionate enough to chat about it on this forum. Though with that being said if I post something that is not in my finest moment I expect for someone to deconstruct it. It's the only way you learn. We're all adults and can be told we're wrong without getting into a hissy fit.

Have a great friday night as well guys/gals.

Prime85
May 26, 2012, 01:36 AM
The feature i am looking most forward to with Mountain Lion is AirPlay Mirroring of my computer. I already like to stream movies to my apple tv from iTunes but it will be great using my TV as a monitor while playing games.

Sdreed91
May 26, 2012, 08:59 AM
The feature i am looking most forward to with Mountain Lion is AirPlay Mirroring of my computer. I already like to stream movies to my apple tv from iTunes but it will be great using my TV as a monitor while playing games.

You are right to be excited. It is fantastic and very easy. I used to have to pull out cords a keyboard and a mouse just to use my TV as a monitor while my Mac was in clamshell mode but not anymore. The airplay is just awesome. AirPlay is probably the newest feature that I use the most.

Martyimac
May 26, 2012, 09:29 AM
Exactly. Jobs was notorious for not hiring more engineers but moving them between departments which is exactly what happened with OS X 10.5. Having worked for Cupertino, I know what I speak of and I don't appreciate someone on this thread strong arming and insulting people as they do not agree with their opinion. It simply makes them appear immature. ..............................................................


On that note, I wish you all a pleasant holiday weekend. Be safe :).

Didn't think I needed your whole post so just deleted out all but the first and last paragraph, just makes it easier.

Thank you, thank you for your post. I have been trying to put into words the issues I have had with macs lately and you nailed every one of them. Very well thought out, case made and simple enough for someone like me to understand them. Not all will like what you said but there is a "silent majority" of folks who are starting to feel this way also. I do not plan on buying another Mac unless they bring out a consumer equivalent of the MacPro and price it so the average Joe can buy it, along with the improvements in OSX of course.

nuckinfutz
May 26, 2012, 10:35 AM
Didn't think I needed your whole post so just deleted out all but the first and last paragraph, just makes it easier.

Thank you, thank you for your post. I have been trying to put into words the issues I have had with macs lately and you nailed every one of them. Very well thought out, case made and simple enough for someone like me to understand them. Not all will like what you said but there is a "silent majority" of folks who are starting to feel this way also. I do not plan on buying another Mac unless they bring out a consumer equivalent of the MacPro and price it so the average Joe can buy it, along with the improvements in OSX of course.

Marty isn't the Mac Pro a consumer device? I mean I believe a new model is coming and while it's not going to be as cheap as an iMac it still would make a fine home computer for those that want a computer that'll last years.

I applaud Bedifferent for his patience. I just happen to have a shorter fuse when it comes to potential misinformation. There are varying levels of knowledge, experience and even point of views.

When we're talking about a new Operating System we really have to define what the purpose of a new version is.

It is not solely to bring new features. It is not solely to bring bug fixes (Software Update can bring that)

One of the reasons why we have major OS version updates is because the changes are so significant a line of demarcation must exist so that confusion doesn't arise.

Imagine if we didn't have major OS versions an developers had to manage and juggle different feature-sets in what is the same OS in nomenclature (e.g 10.7).

It could be a nightmare if the OS had wildly varying feature-set. So what Apple and other people do is create a relatively stable set of frameworks, bug fixes and features that developer know exist and package it. Makes sense for all.

So with that in mind it makes no sense to say "Apple should fix the bugs in Lion first before they move to Mountain Lion" Apple will fix small bugs through Software Update but the larger changes have to be encapsulated in the next major OS version.

Sorry for the long post

Krazy Bill
May 26, 2012, 11:05 PM
Marty isn't the Mac Pro a consumer device? I mean I believe a new model is coming...New Mac Pro on the way? A "consumer" device?

What in god's name would possess you to spread this kind of stuff?

nuckinfutz
May 26, 2012, 11:10 PM
New Mac Pro on the way? A "consumer" device?

What in god's name would possess you to spread this kind of stuff?

Some really good imported ****

dyn
May 28, 2012, 04:39 PM
Also, working in IT/communication as a self proprietor, small-large businesses are moving away from iMacs. Why? Because if any part fails, the entire system needs to be benched for repairs, hindering workflow. If a tower part fails, a graphics card, HDD, just swap it out, and done.

I've never ever understood this point. To me, as a sysadmin, it is complete moot because what you are talking about is a management problem, not a problem with a specific product. iMacs or any other all-in-one like a tablet, tablet-pc, smartphone or notebook/laptop are not a problem if you can simply replace them with a temporary one that you can use for just this purpose. We did this at almost every company I worked for.

Most of them also have special contracts with the company they bought the stuff from that dealt with things like this as well. Like how quick they got a technician on site to fix the problem (such as replacing a component like a graphics card or hdd).

The above also applies to monitors or any other component that is required to actually use a computer. If it breaks you need to replace it asap. This is much easier if you can replace it with a temporary one so the original item can be send in for repair or it can wait for the technician to fix it.

In other words, it is all about how you as a business deal with these kind of things. Replacement of an entire unit should not lead to any problems. It is a universal problem that applies to nearly any device within a company. You'll benefit from a good thought out plan that tells you what to do when a device fails and isn't available for use any more. It is more like thinking from a user perspective instead of IT perspective (how quick can you get somebody back to his/her job IT-wise?).

\-V-/
May 28, 2012, 04:43 PM
Your understanding of apps and features is a bit broken.

I'm going to have to agree.

It's a bit like Snow Leopard was to Leopard. Not too much noticeable on the surface per se, but under the surface there is a lot of things going on... and it is noticeably faster than Lion.

Regardless, it's not like it'll be an expensive upgrade... not a big deal. I'm liking ML right now, personally.

Death-T
May 29, 2012, 02:10 AM
The biggest feature for me is Airplay mirroring. I never understood why it wasn't included in Lion since my iPhone's been able to mirror for a while now. Before if I wanted to stream media from my PC to a TV I needed a long VGB cable for video and a bulky pair of speakers for sound. My crummy laptop would have to be in just the right place for the wired speakers to be positioned properly while the VGB cable reached behind my TV, PS3, cable box, region free DVD player, etc. It was a hot mess with cables running everywhere, and if the VGB cable came slightly loose in the middle of what you were doing then it was a nightmare having to put it back in, rewind the video, and reconfigure the display settings to get back where you were.

I downloaded the developer preview just for airplay. Being able to wirelessly stream video and audio content in perfect quality and no lag with the push of a button is a dream come true for me.

The iOS integration isn't really that exciting, but I suppose it will offer some convenience as an iPhone owner. It's also pretty cool being able to easily text someone on their phone from my computer with the messaging app. I can see how it's not such a huge upgrade. It also doesn't have a huge price tag though. The Airplay feature really makes the deal for me, and it seems most of my frustrations with Lion will be resolved with ML so I'm down for it.

chevalier433
May 29, 2012, 05:49 AM
[QUOTE.. and it is noticeably faster than Lion.[/QUOTE]

Any proof of that?ML is still in development so..

bogatyr
May 29, 2012, 07:34 AM
The biggest feature for me is Airplay mirroring. I never understood why it wasn't included in Lion since my iPhone's been able to mirror for a while now. Before if I wanted to stream media from my PC to a TV I needed a long VGB cable for video and a bulky pair of speakers for sound. My crummy laptop would have to be in just the right place for the wired speakers to be positioned properly while the VGB cable reached behind my TV, PS3, cable box, region free DVD player, etc. It was a hot mess with cables running everywhere, and if the VGB cable came slightly loose in the middle of what you were doing then it was a nightmare having to put it back in, rewind the video, and reconfigure the display settings to get back where you were.

I downloaded the developer preview just for airplay. Being able to wirelessly stream video and audio content in perfect quality and no lag with the push of a button is a dream come true for me.

The iOS integration isn't really that exciting, but I suppose it will offer some convenience as an iPhone owner. It's also pretty cool being able to easily text someone on their phone from my computer with the messaging app. I can see how it's not such a huge upgrade. It also doesn't have a huge price tag though. The Airplay feature really makes the deal for me, and it seems most of my frustrations with Lion will be resolved with ML so I'm down for it.


You could always play video from iTunes to the Apple TV. The mirroring in ML has many resolution issues - it offers nothing of value so far (my opinion).

bedifferent
May 29, 2012, 02:36 PM
I've never ever understood this point. To me, as a sysadmin, it is complete moot because what you are talking about is a management problem, not a problem with a specific product. iMacs or any other all-in-one like a tablet, tablet-pc, smartphone or notebook/laptop are not a problem if you can simply replace them with a temporary one that you can use for just this purpose. We did this at almost every company I worked for.

Most of them also have special contracts with the company they bought the stuff from that dealt with things like this as well. Like how quick they got a technician on site to fix the problem (such as replacing a component like a graphics card or hdd).

The above also applies to monitors or any other component that is required to actually use a computer. If it breaks you need to replace it asap. This is much easier if you can replace it with a temporary one so the original item can be send in for repair or it can wait for the technician to fix it.

In other words, it is all about how you as a business deal with these kind of things. Replacement of an entire unit should not lead to any problems. It is a universal problem that applies to nearly any device within a company. You'll benefit from a good thought out plan that tells you what to do when a device fails and isn't available for use any more. It is more like thinking from a user perspective instead of IT perspective (how quick can you get somebody back to his/her job IT-wise?).

It's not about how you manage. As I work in the same profession, many businesses jumped on the iMac bandwagon as a solution to the void created by the Mac Pro price jump from PowerMac's. The issue that has come forward time and time again is that all-in-one systems are not convenient for a workplace. I have had numerous iMac's over the year's that have failed, and required benching for repairs. Even with Apple's retail business "department", expedited benching still takes a few days. How do we solve this issue when someone doesn't have a system to work on, and if the work they had been doing is on the system? Not all businesses use server's, and not all businesses have an extra system just lying around. If a part in a tower needs replacing, it's easy to replace and takes less time in doing so. It is not a "universal problem that applies to every company", not every company has the same setup. If they're using servers, great, much easier. However many design firms work off their all-on-one iMac. If you've ever worked on an iMac, you would know just how arduous and time consuming it is to diagnose and repair. Notebooks are easier to repair (in general).

Couple this with limited user upgradeability (only RAM is upgradeable), the inability to offer an anti-glare option (even with a hood, iMac displays have been problematic for some, not all, businesses that require such for their work), many have moved to other platforms due to long term financial business strategies. The fact is many businesses are moving away from iMac's due to these limitations. Whether I agree or not, it's just becoming a reality. I have two clients in NYC who moved to either Mac Pro's or Windows built towers due to the fact that they cannot afford the down time should a component fail or they could not afford to upgrade to Mac Pro's from their G4/5's due to the huge difference in price. Server admin is a different story, work can be contained/should be contained/backed up, and the employee could use another machine IF one is available. That's a big "if". Again, how can you justify this issue isn't valid? Replacing parts on the spot is simple for IT, repairing an iMac is not and cannot be done on site (AppleCare is voided and it would take a long time to diagnose, take apart the system and assuming you have Apple proprietary parts, replace). As a former Genius bar employee, I know the specifics required with iMac's and it's not a simple procedure.

In the end, business management is realizing the best solution is moving back to systems that are manageable such as towers/mid-towers. The components are swappable on site (Apple does not offer on-site services, unless a third party has a contract with Apple which is rare), and parts are easier to keep on site than an entire iMac. Other displays can be used, HDD's, graphics cards, etc can be upgradeable allowing the system better longevity than an iMac (current graphics cards on iMac systems are best for moderate usage, PPC iMac's and up until 2007 used mobile parts, notebook's built into a larger display hence the small form factor, and some iMac models still use notebook parts). A business would be smart financially to think long term; would it be better buying 20-30 iMac's with limited service should one fail resulting in employee downtime, no coverage once AppleCare runs out in 3 years unless through a third party in which coverage plans may be limited or expensive, and limited display options for film editors/design houses?

Since iMac's became increasingly popular for businesses roughly 3-4 years ago, many are now dealing with the issue of replacing their systems. As tech evolved so quickly, iMac's become outdated quicker as desktop systems can be upgraded with less expensive options such as replacing graphics cards, displays, RAM, etc. thus keeping overhead down while staying ahead of the curve. It's a shame as Apple left this sect when shifting to Intel and the Xeon based Mac Pro's, increasing their tower base line by $1000 over a PowerMac (and iMac sales were not hindered by PowerMac G4/5's, they each catered/cater to a different market). Businesses that need dozens of systems saw a major price increase in upgrades, went for iMac's, and are now facing having to replace those systems. Before, PowerMac's could last 4, 5 sometimes 6 years for most business, and the CCFL LCD's Apple offered gave businesses great IPS panels in three various sizes. I know many who still use the 23" and 30" displays, they're working well, no burn-in, still bright and great overall performance. If only Apple offered the form factor of a Mac Pro with i7's processors, I guarantee you they would see a impressive increase in business and high end consumer sales.

heisenberg123
May 29, 2012, 03:01 PM
You could always play video from iTunes to the Apple TV. The mirroring in ML has many resolution issues - it offers nothing of value so far (my opinion).

iTunes yes but you could not mirror the desktop, programs, games, web browsers, media not in iTunes, etc etc

Death-T
May 29, 2012, 03:08 PM
You could always play video from iTunes to the Apple TV. The mirroring in ML has many resolution issues - it offers nothing of value so far (my opinion).

As far as I'm concerned, that only applies to iTunes purchases (or perhaps video downloads played through iTunes as well). That doesn't apply to video streaming sites like Hulu, Crunchy Roll, etc. It's also convenient for games and desktop mirroring. There's a lot more to media than iTunes. Anyway, the mirroring looks fine streaming from my iMac to to my 32 inch LCD display. Videos play with no lag and appear just as they do on my computer. I'm not saying it doesn't have issues, but I haven't really experienced any of them--and this is just a developer preview too. It's not like Airplay is something I would buy a new Mac and an Apple TV for, but already being the owner of both makes the affordable upgrade to ML a huge convenience for me.

bogatyr
May 29, 2012, 03:16 PM
As far as I'm concerned, that only applies to iTunes purchases (or perhaps video downloads played through iTunes as well). That doesn't apply to video streaming sites like Hulu, Crunchy Roll, etc. It's also convenient for games and desktop mirroring. There's a lot more to media than iTunes. Anyway, the mirroring looks fine streaming from my iMac to to my 32 inch LCD display. Videos play with no lag and appear just as they do on my computer. I'm not saying it doesn't have issues, but I haven't really experienced any of them--and this is just a developer preview too. It's not like Airplay is something I would buy a new Mac and an Apple TV for, but already being the owner of both makes the affordable upgrade to ML a huge convenience for me.

Unless they changed something, the resolution is matched to your Macbook device or is some oddball resolution. So if you're running a 1440x900 MBA, your TV mirror looks messed up and there is no way to get 1080p or even 720p on the TV. The options listed are oddballs so the picture looks funny. This covers any application mirroring or web videos (Hulu, CBS.com, etc). It is a failure in my book.

The only time this doesn't matter is when you use iTunes to display a video - which isn't new anyways. Then the output is only the video and the resolution is correct and looks great.

This is my original post about it:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=14822092&postcount=28

Short but to the point.

ixodes
May 29, 2012, 03:22 PM
I've never seen a definition for what constitutes a "real OS upgrade".

While there are some features that I have no interest in, I respect the fact that many others may like what I don't.

From my perspective it's what Apple improves, not the quantity of new features.

Overall for my use, it appears that Mountain Lion will suit me better than Lion.

dyn
May 29, 2012, 03:41 PM
It's not about how you manage. As I work in the same profession, many businesses jumped on the iMac bandwagon as a solution to the void created by the Mac Pro price jump from PowerMac's. The issue that has come forward time and time again is that all-in-one systems are not convenient for a workplace.

I come from a workplace where most have something like a smartphone, tablet and/or a notebook. The amount of all-in-ones is huge. We do the same thing when something breaks as with the normal tower models: we try to get it fixed on the spot and if we are unable we'll move it to our lab. If this is going to be a convenience the user will get a temporary replacement so he or she can get on with whatever he/she does. This also provides us with more time to fiddle with the problem and get it resolved. Very handy when things get very complex. But most of all, users are more satisfied because a problem with their machine/device does not disrupt their schedule completely.

So yes, it definitely is in how you manage and not in what product you use. Whenever we order something new we have a surplus of say 2 to 3% specifically for temporary replacements. This way we buy ourselves time and make our users more satisfied. Simply put: if all-in-ones (or any other device) are an issue with maintenance/replacement you are doing it wrong.

How do we solve this issue when someone doesn't have a system to work on, and if the work they had been doing is on the system? Not all businesses use server's, and not all businesses have an extra system just lying around. If a part in a tower needs replacing, it's easy to replace and takes less time in doing so. It is not a "universal problem that applies to every company", not every company has the same setup. If they're using servers, great, much easier. However many design firms work off their all-on-one iMac.
You can swap the drive, you can create an image and restore it as well as many other things. What you are describing here poses more problems because there are many single point of failures that have been created. This puts the business at great risk. Or in other words: management is the problem here, not the product itself: only how you deal with the product.


If you've ever worked on an iMac, you would know just how arduous and time consuming it is to diagnose and repair. Notebooks are easier to repair (in general).

It highly depends on what the model is aimed at. Notebooks aimed at business use tend to be a little bit easier to open up but the fact remains that notebooks in general are a pita. They are about as hard as an iMac.


Couple this with limited user upgradeability (only RAM is upgradeable), the inability to offer an anti-glare option (even with a hood, iMac displays have been problematic for some, not all, businesses that require such for their work), many have moved to other platforms due to long term financial business strategies.

If you need to upgrade the device afterwards than you didn't do your homework properly before buying it or you are simply desperately trying to stretch a devices lifetime. Computers have a max lifetime. After a couple of years it is cheaper to replace them than to upgrade them since they are written off. The glossy panel is more of a personal thing (I for one strongly dislike them and think they should be banned for medical reasons (they are really bad for ones health because it is more fatiguing for your eyes)).

Btw, if you want upgradability you don't buy any other product but the Mac Pro. It is the only Mac that is actually upgradable. This is what I meant with doing your homework properly before buying something.


I have two clients in NYC who moved to either Mac Pro's or Windows built towers due to the fact that they cannot afford the down time should a component fail or they could not afford to upgrade to Mac Pro's from their G4/5's due to the huge difference in price.
What do they do when the psu fails? What do they do when the CPU burns because of a failing fan? What if 1 or more disk drives crash? Those are all components that will stop a computer from working at all causing the exact same downtime they were trying to avoid by switching from iMac to Mac Pro/something else. In other words, they haven't thought it through at all and simply moved to something else. Unfortunately it won't solve the problem(s) they are trying to solve.

Replacing parts on the spot is simple for IT, repairing an iMac is not and cannot be done on site (AppleCare is voided and it would take a long time to diagnose, take apart the system and assuming you have Apple proprietary parts, replace). As a former Genius bar employee, I know the specifics required with iMac's and it's not a simple procedure.

This is completely incorrect. iMacs can be replaced on the spot like any other machine. Only its components can not be replaced on the spot like many other devices such as notebooks. When it comes to machines like Mac Pro's one needs to have replacement parts on site. As a former Genius you are well aware that this is absolutely impossible for Apple products due to Apple's policy of user replaceable parts vs non-user replaceable parts. This causes simple items like hdd's/ssd's and memory to be on site but things like a processor try, cpu, etc. require the machine to be sent to an AAPR to be repaired. Most brands will have something like this. This is why lots of businesses simply replace the entire machine so the broken one can be RMA'd.


In the end, business management is realizing the best solution is moving back to systems that are manageable such as towers/mid-towers.

No, in the end business management is showing once more why they are not in the IT department: they fail at it. Moving back to something else is not the solution because the problems remain. Again, these are not iMac problems, these are generic problems for nearly any device on the market.


The components are swappable on site (Apple does not offer on-site services, unless a third party has a contract with Apple which is rare), and parts are easier to keep on site than an entire iMac.

Which confirms what I already said: components on site for Apple devices is simply absolutely impossible.


A business would be smart financially to think long term; would it be better buying 20-30 iMac's with limited service should one fail resulting in employee downtime, no coverage once AppleCare runs out in 3 years unless through a third party in which coverage plans may be limited or expensive, and limited display options for film editors/design houses?
Most businesses write off machines in 3 years. After 3 years they buy new stuff. Which is exactly why most contracts only last up to 3 years. If you spent a lot of money you can get 5 year contracts. The contracts for longer periods are for special machines like servers, mainframes.

Businesses that need dozens of systems saw a major price increase in upgrades, went for iMac's, and are now facing having to replace those systems.
Because that would be the time frame in which you write off computers.


If only Apple offered the form factor of a Mac Pro with i7's processors, I guarantee you they would see a impressive increase in business and high end consumer sales.
Businesses require different things which mostly comes down to management stuff (think SLA). What you are mentioning here is only for people who want a more affordable Mac Pro. I've never seen prices be a big problem with businesses because they know they'll make money with it. It is the consumer who is very picky with pricing, they are the ones that scream that Macs are overly expensive and they can get a Windows machine for half the price (they don't look at the quality which is halved as well).

linuxcooldude
May 29, 2012, 03:54 PM
Actually this is exactly what happens. When the iPhone was first released, Leopard was delayed because they moved engineers from OSX to iOS. I think it's fairly well known that Apple doesn't create "teams" necessarily, but shuffles people around for whatever is currently suiting them.

I think we are going to see yearly releases of Mac OSX which Mountain Lion is going to come during summertime. To correspond with yearly iOS updates.

BaldiMac
May 29, 2012, 04:13 PM
Unless they changed something, the resolution is matched to your Macbook device or is some oddball resolution. So if you're running a 1440x900 MBA, your TV mirror looks messed up and there is no way to get 1080p or even 720p on the TV. The options listed are oddballs so the picture looks funny. This covers any application mirroring or web videos (Hulu, CBS.com, etc). It is a failure in my book.

The only time this doesn't matter is when you use iTunes to display a video - which isn't new anyways. Then the output is only the video and the resolution is correct and looks great.

This is my original post about it:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=14822092&postcount=28

Short but to the point.

I don't understand what you are getting at here (or your original post). What looks messed up? How would you expect it to mirror your display at a different "resolution" than your display?

Airplay simply up- or down-converts the resolution of your Mac to the output of your AppleTV. You can match your Mac to the output resolution of your AppleTV (at the Mac's aspect ratio) in order to maximize the quality on the TV.

bogatyr
May 29, 2012, 04:21 PM
I don't understand what you are getting at here (or your original post). What looks messed up? How would you expect it to mirror your display at a different "resolution" than your display?

Airplay simply up- or down-converts the resolution of your Mac to the output of your AppleTV. You can match your Mac to the output resolution of your AppleTV (at the Mac's aspect ratio) in order to maximize the quality on the TV.

I would expect an option to display only on the TV at 1080p or an option to display 720p on my laptop (with black bars) and on the TV. Neither are available but both would make the TV experience good - the latter at a loss of quality on the laptop.

What is the point of mirroring to a TV if the resolution is not an aspect ratio matching the TV? I'm not mirroring to the TV for black bars - I'm mirroring for a full screen experience, otherwise I'd just use my laptop.

EDIT: To be clear, I would expect the same options I have with the DP->HDMI connector without the connector. I mean, that's the reason for it... to lose the wires.

BaldiMac
May 29, 2012, 04:31 PM
I would expect an option to display only on the TV at 1080p or an option to display 720p on my laptop (with black bars) and on the TV. Neither are available but both would make the TV experience good - the latter at a loss of quality on the laptop.

What is the point of mirroring to a TV if the resolution is not an aspect ratio matching the TV? I'm not mirroring to the TV for black bars - I'm mirroring for a full screen experience, otherwise I'd just use my laptop.

EDIT: To be clear, I would expect the same options I have with the DP->HDMI connector without the connector. I mean, that's the reason for it... to lose the wires.

Okay. You made it sound like something was not working correctly and the picture was distorted. You would just like the option to match the aspect ratio in addition to the resolution of the TV.

\-V-/
May 29, 2012, 10:12 PM
Any proof of that?ML is still in development so..

By using/testing it frequently on a daily basis? At this stage in development it is noticeably faster than Lion. Safari has potential as well. Seems like a new rendering engine altogether.

chevalier433
May 30, 2012, 06:12 AM
By using/testing it frequently on a daily basis? At this stage in development it is noticeably faster than Lion. Safari has potential as well. Seems like a new rendering engine altogether.

I testing it to and i haven't noticed any difference with lion 10.7.4 only in terms of speed.

nuckinfutz
May 31, 2012, 06:34 PM
I don't care what you call ML. Service Pack, new OS or OS Blunt.

As long as it performs I'm happy. Lion is not bad for me but i'm running new hardware. Even then though I feel there can be a lot more polish.

ML should fix a lot of what ails most people about Lion.

nuckinfutz
May 31, 2012, 07:46 PM
Whatever we come up with in this thread. Apple engineers thought of months if not years ago. At this point Mountain Lion doesn't need much in new features other than proper iCloud support for documents and updates to the many frameworks and architectures already in place.

Speaking of iCloud this is good news.

iCloud Key Value sync boosted from 64kb to 1Mbyte (http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/05/31/just-before-wwdc-apple-makes-it-easier-for-developers-that-dont-sync-a-lot-of-data-to-use-icloud/)

To me this means Apple is confident that Key Value data is syncing properly on the backend enough to raise the amount by a factor of 16.

Krazy Bill
Jun 1, 2012, 09:26 AM
Whatever we come up with in this thread. Apple engineers thought of months if not years ago. Well, there you go again. Where do you get this stuff from? Hilarious :D

"Years ago?" Come on. Nobody in this ever-changing tech world sees that far down the line much less puts those ideas in motion.

A little too much Apple worship tends to cloud one's judgement and common sense.

heisenberg123
Jun 1, 2012, 10:02 AM
Whatever we come up with in this thread. Apple engineers thought of months if not years ago. At this point Mountain Lion doesn't need much in new features other than proper iCloud support for documents and updates to the many frameworks and architectures already in place.

Speaking of iCloud this is good news.

iCloud Key Value sync boosted from 64kb to 1Mbyte (http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/05/31/just-before-wwdc-apple-makes-it-easier-for-developers-that-dont-sync-a-lot-of-data-to-use-icloud/)

To me this means Apple is confident that Key Value data is syncing properly on the backend enough to raise the amount by a factor of 16.



your right well except the years ago part but it was surely thought of months ago so too late to ask for new features now, actually pretty stupid to make and comments or suggestions about an OS on macrumors as apple could care less about what we type on here

nuckinfutz
Jun 1, 2012, 11:33 AM
What I mean is that often you have people that say

"When is Apple going to fix memory management?" like Apple hasn't identified the issue and has people working on the issue.

Every OS comes with new API and old API that is deprecated and the goal is to shift developers to new stuff that performs better.

TennisandMusic
Jun 1, 2012, 12:22 PM
Whatever we come up with in this thread. Apple engineers thought of months if not years ago. At this point Mountain Lion doesn't need much in new features other than proper iCloud support for documents and updates to the many frameworks and architectures already in place.

Speaking of iCloud this is good news.

iCloud Key Value sync boosted from 64kb to 1Mbyte (http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/05/31/just-before-wwdc-apple-makes-it-easier-for-developers-that-dont-sync-a-lot-of-data-to-use-icloud/)

To me this means Apple is confident that Key Value data is syncing properly on the backend enough to raise the amount by a factor of 16.

That's a funny spin on it (a factor of 16!!) when Google Drive syncs files up to 10 gigabytes large. :p

nuckinfutz
Jun 1, 2012, 12:35 PM
That's a funny spin on it (a factor of 16!!) when Google Drive syncs files up to 10 gigabytes large. :p

iCloud will sync larger files but they break it down by

Key Value - small stuff that typically would be delivered in document form.
Documents - the larger stuff we typical manage in our filesystem.

Apple's simply improving the max payload of those non document pieces of data giving developers some freedom. A good thing

matrix07
Jun 2, 2012, 06:41 AM
That's a funny spin on it (a factor of 16!!) when Google Drive syncs files up to 10 gigabytes large. :p

Are you sure you understand what he said? ;)

TennisandMusic
Jun 2, 2012, 07:17 PM
Are you sure you understand what he said? ;)

Uh, yes. Exclaiming that they have increased sync capabilities by a factor of 16 to 1MB is kind of goofy considering how tiny the amount of data is. It is not a huge engineering feat, and it's funny to see someone using it as an example of the quality of iCloud. That is all.

I know exactly the difference between different data types, people shouldn't assume that everyone on this board is just a consumer. That is not the case.

nuckinfutz
Jun 2, 2012, 07:28 PM
Uh, yes. Exclaiming that they have increased sync capabilities by a factor of 16 to 1MB is kind of goofy considering how tiny the amount of data is. It is not a huge engineering feat, and it's funny to see someone using it as an example of the quality of iCloud. That is all.

I know exactly the difference between different data types, people shouldn't assume that everyone on this board is just a consumer. That is not the case.

Any sync technology that works is a huge engineering feat. The majority of the small developers that have written their own sync technology fail in my experience. Writing robust sync technology is up there with writing properly threaded and concurrent applications. Really on the best need apply.

With Key Value storage being so small It's likely easier to munge in the sync process. If Apple's raising the limit for KV sync it could be a harbinger of their confidence in iCloud's integrity.

I could be wrong. I could be write but more breathing room for developers for KV is a positive thing from any angle.

matrix07
Jun 2, 2012, 09:57 PM
Uh, yes. Exclaiming that they have increased sync capabilities by a factor of 16 to 1MB is kind of goofy considering how tiny the amount of data is. It is not a huge engineering feat, and it's funny to see someone using it as an example of the quality of iCloud. That is all.

I know exactly the difference between different data types, people shouldn't assume that everyone on this board is just a consumer. That is not the case.

But then why you said "when Google Drive syncs files up to 10 gigabytes"? That has nothing to do with what he said. And anyone can claim anything afterward. You're not convincing. :)

Josh M
Jun 3, 2012, 12:32 AM
I'm not usually one to complain, but a lot of the features that Apple has listed about Mountain Lion on their website don't seem much like 'real' operating system upgrades:

iCloud - Personally I don't use iCloud much, but I was under the understanding that all that iCloud stuff was already available on Lion... I don't get what's been added to iCloud with ML.

iMessage - It's a nice feature, but it's more like an IM client app rather than an operating system feature. You should really be able to get it on the app store in the form of a messages app.

Reminders & Notes - These are really just apps, not OS features at all. You could download apps on the app store that could do exactly the same things as these apps branded as OS features.

Share Sheets - Again, it's just a feature in many ML apps. Not really part of the OS.

Gatekeeper - Seems to me like a way to try and start walling OSX off... Not sure how many people would find this useful, let alone it be an incentive to upgrade their OS.


Mac OS 10.7 to Mac OS 10.8
The huge change you're looking for is Mac OS 11.

Comparing Windows 8 and Mountain Lion is apples and oranges (lol)(but srsly).

Josh M
Jun 3, 2012, 12:49 AM
I have a sense that Apple are now gonna do once a year $30 updates rather than bigger ones separated over a few years.
When it's ready, Mac OS 11 (probably won't be named that) will come out at a WWDC in the future. I will guess 2013 though.

Remember though, that Apple are hugely optimistic about the forward progress of the iPad and foresee it overtaking the consumer PC market, so their focus will remain solely on improving iOS.

I predict in 5 years time, the only people to have desktop computers will be those that need more grunt in their systems, a la video editors, software engineers etc.

The rest of us peasants will play our future games on the iPad (think beyond Angry Birds to something as big as (but not) WoW or Diablo 3 entirely on the iPad).

Cute.

IllmasterMath
Jun 3, 2012, 04:52 PM
Lion never felt like a 'real' OS upgrade to me. If you ignore the arbitrary naming convention- because that's all it is- Lion brought iCloud support and a couple of half-baked features. If Apple has ever been guilty of charging for a Service Pack, Lion was it. Out of necessity I switched over but it's a mess. Mountain Lion is what we were promised. This is why I'm particulary disappointed in Apple's intention to prematurely make obsolete my 2008 MacBook with an Intel GMA X3100. I have been able to get the developer preview running just fine so it's clearly capable. I have been holding out for a MacBook Pro redesign so we'll see what happens in the coming weeks but annoying nonetheless.

I don't think anyone would disagree that Snow Leopard to Mountain Lion is a hell of an upgrade. Let's just collectively repress the memory of the bastard child that was Lion and move on.

\-V-/
Jun 4, 2012, 03:40 AM
I don't think anyone would disagree that Snow Leopard to Mountain Lion is a hell of an upgrade. Let's just collectively repress the memory of the bastard child that was Lion and move on.

My thoughts exactly. ;)

blow45
Jun 7, 2012, 11:26 PM
It's not an os upgrade it's a service pack to fix the mess that was lion and put it behind them. That's why it wasn't presented in a keynote (what to present twitter, notes and reminders or a bunch of lion bug and interface fixes?), the first os x version to not be presented in a keynote.

If apple charge for it they will be shameless, seeing as they 've still not done proper work in os x internals and there are far too many bugs left unfixed. Mountain lion is another name for cougar, it's a very apt name (lion was anything but a lion of course), since in slang it refers to an aged animal seeking younger companions to mate, it's the great (other peoples') cutting edge hardware apple use in their devices paired with an aging os with poor technological advances at its core but plenty of injudiciously applied lipstick and make up slapped on top. Apple can't even put enough development behind lion to get it to having the latest Darwin kernel, and ios 6 will be ahead of os x there too...

nuckinfutz
Jun 8, 2012, 12:11 AM
OS Upgrade ...Service Pack....new thingy. All semantics. Since only Microsoft calls their updates Service Packs is means little to a Mac user how you define an update.

Lion is fine..does it have bugs? Yes ...like every other OS X version before it had bugs.

Is Mountain Lion adding some much needed fixes and polish? Yes. I do hope Apple makes Mountain Lion free i'll be happy because I think that all Macs that can run Mountain Lion should be running it so long as their aren't legacy apps that prevent a user from upgrading.

Dolorian
Jun 8, 2012, 01:45 AM
Frankly after the disaster that was Lion for me, from this point on I will only upgrade the OS when I get it with a brand new Mac. Something which I am honestly not looking forward to.

What Apple is doing with OS X does not interests me in the least and in no way helps my productivity. I understand they see the big market being in the iOS devices and as such they feel they need to copy/paste all the features of iOS into OS X but I really have no interest in that.

Gone are the days when I was super excited about a new Mac OS upgrade, an upgrade that I couldn't wait to install and enjoyed immensely every time I did. Now it is all uninspiring, "oh look, Apple is adding X iOS feature to OS X" or Apple messing around with things that aren't broke..."lets revert scrolling, let's remove Save As"...or adding unnecessary tedious features "les't make all apps resume on launch, lets save every change you do automatically without asking you to save when you close the document".

It's become a hindrance I'd rather avoid.

Martyimac
Jun 9, 2012, 08:18 AM
Frankly after the disaster that was Lion for me, from this point on I will only upgrade the OS when I get it with a brand new Mac. Something which I am honestly not looking forward to.

What Apple is doing with OS X does not interests me in the least and in no way helps my productivity. I understand they see the big market being in the iOS devices and as such they feel they need to copy/paste all the features of iOS into OS X but I really have no interest in that.

Gone are the days when I was super excited about a new Mac OS upgrade, an upgrade that I couldn't wait to install and enjoyed immensely every time I did. Now it is all uninspiring, "oh look, Apple is adding X iOS feature to OS X" or Apple messing around with things that aren't broke..."lets revert scrolling, let's remove Save As"...or adding unnecessary tedious features "les't make all apps resume on launch, lets save every change you do automatically without asking you to save when you close the document".

It's become a hindrance I'd rather avoid.

Thank you, could not have said it better myself.

greenmeanie
Jun 9, 2012, 11:51 AM
I have to agree.
There are add ons but not a OS upgrade in my book.

I'm not usually one to complain, but a lot of the features that Apple has listed about Mountain Lion on their website don't seem much like 'real' operating system upgrades:

iCloud - Personally I don't use iCloud much, but I was under the understanding that all that iCloud stuff was already available on Lion... I don't get what's been added to iCloud with ML.

iMessage - It's a nice feature, but it's more like an IM client app rather than an operating system feature. You should really be able to get it on the app store in the form of a messages app.

Reminders & Notes - These are really just apps, not OS features at all. You could download apps on the app store that could do exactly the same things as these apps branded as OS features.

Share Sheets - Again, it's just a feature in many ML apps. Not really part of the OS.

Gatekeeper - Seems to me like a way to try and start walling OSX off... Not sure how many people would find this useful, let alone it be an incentive to upgrade their OS.

blow45
Jun 9, 2012, 11:55 AM
Frankly after the disaster that was Lion for me, from this point on I will only upgrade the OS when I get it with a brand new Mac. Something which I am honestly not looking forward to.

What Apple is doing with OS X does not interests me in the least and in no way helps my productivity. I understand they see the big market being in the iOS devices and as such they feel they need to copy/paste all the features of iOS into OS X but I really have no interest in that.

Gone are the days when I was super excited about a new Mac OS upgrade, an upgrade that I couldn't wait to install and enjoyed immensely every time I did. Now it is all uninspiring, "oh look, Apple is adding X iOS feature to OS X" or Apple messing around with things that aren't broke..."lets revert scrolling, let's remove Save As"...or adding unnecessary tedious features "les't make all apps resume on launch, lets save every change you do automatically without asking you to save when you close the document".

It's become a hindrance I'd rather avoid.
qft

vohdoun
Jun 9, 2012, 12:36 PM
lets save every change you do automatically without asking you to save when you close the document".

It's become a hindrance I'd rather avoid.

I'd have to admit, I detest that so much with Preview on Lion.

atMac
Jun 9, 2012, 09:29 PM
iCloud - No reason this can't be simply an extension for Safari. They are still not syncing keychains, preferences, or Mail settings like Rules, and preferences from the site to Mail.app.

iMessage - Could easily be a few dollar app in the App Store


Reminders & Notes - These could also be apps in the App Store

Share Sheets -Not familiar with this one. So I can't judge it.

Gatekeeper - This is actually a nice addition IMO.

There are some small changes that are nice, but I don't feel like this should be a 10.8 I feel like it should be a 10.7.5 + new apps in the App Store, and a few other things should be held off till a better 10.8 is ready in a year or 2.

I in no way feel 10.8 is BAD I just don't think it lives up to Apples normal standards for a new OS.

Does anyone have a good link to all the backend work that is going into 10.8? I really am only familiar with the UI changes. I assume there are some security/framework changes as well.

nuckinfutz
Jun 10, 2012, 01:09 AM
iCloud - No reason this can't be simply an extension for Safari. They are still not syncing keychains, preferences, or Mail settings like Rules, and preferences from the site to Mail.app.


Does anyone have a good link to all the backend work that is going into 10.8? I really am only familiar with the UI changes. I assume there are some security/framework changes as well.

http://gazapps.com/wp/2012/02/19/os-x-v10-8-mountain-lion-new-frameworks/

The following frameworks have been added in OS X v10.8:

Accounts (Accounts.framework). The Accounts framework provides a single sign-on model for supported account types. Single sign-on improves the user experience because apps no longer need to prompt a user separately for login information related to an account. It also simplifies the development model for you by managing the account authorization process for your app. You can use this framework in conjunction with the Twitter framework to access a user’s Twitter account.

Event Kit (EventKit.framework). The Event Kit framework provides an interface for accessing a user’s calendar events and reminder items. You can use the APIs in this framework to get existing events and add new events to the user’s calendar. Calendar events can include alarms that you can configure with rules for when they should be delivered.

Note: The Calendar Store framework (CalendarStore.framework) is deprecated in OS X v10.8. You should use the programming interfaces of the Event Kit framework instead.

You can also use Event Kit APIs to access the user’s reminders, create new reminders, add an alarm to a reminder, and mark a reminder as complete.

Game Kit (GameKit.framework). As described in “Game Center,” the Game Kit framework provides APIs that allow your app to participate in Game Center. You can use Game Kit APIs to display leaderboards in your game, and to give users the opportunity to share their in-game achievements and play multiplayer games. To learn more about using Game Kit APIs in your app, see Game Kit Framework Reference.

GLKit (GLKit.framework). The GLKit framework provides libraries of commonly needed functions and classes that can help reduce the effort required to create an OpenGL app. In addition, the GLKit framework provides APIs that help you perform several optimized mathematical operations, reduce the effort in loading texture data, and render using provided effects.To learn more about using GLKit APIs in your app, see GLKit Framework Reference.

Twitter (Twitter.framework). The Twitter framework allows you to interact with the Twitter service. For example, using a configured Twitter account, you can send status updates (that is, “tweets”) on behalf of the user, which can also include location information and media attachments. Additionally, this framework provides classes for interacting with the Twitter developer API.

These are just a few frameworks that have been added to Mountain Lion. You can't make these simple add ons to the Mac App Store because the frameworks underneath have changed.

Put yourself in the shoes of a developer. Apple cannot add significant framework changes in 10.7.x point releases. The support would be a nightmare because there would be such a large amount of changes between 10.72 and 10.7.5. Consumer get confused. Developers need a fairly consistent target to write against.

Mountain Lion will have a significant amount of changes that aren't exposed to end users. These changes will fix bugs (and cause new ones) and hopefully improve functionality and stability of the OS.

atMac
Jun 10, 2012, 07:52 AM
I forgot about Twitter and Game Center. I also find those a waste of development time.

nuckinfutz
Jun 10, 2012, 10:25 AM
I forgot about Twitter and Game Center. I also find those a waste of development time.

Apple doesn't make Operating Systems for just you. They make them for everyone.

atMac
Jun 11, 2012, 08:56 PM
Apple doesn't make Operating Systems for just you. They make them for everyone.

Yes, but there are Twitter Apps, and I don't know anyone that even uses Game Center on their phone.

I'm just saying there are better things to spend time on, like memory management.