mpw said:Common sense is the only thing that could save this way of life. But this way of life is all about not needing common sense, the State will look after us and Wal-mart etc. will provide for our needs. Maybe this way of life isnt worth saving and the those that can fend for themselves once the ***** hits the fan and society breaks down á la Mad Max / Postman / Waterworld are going to the only ones left standing, if theres enough left to sustain any life that is.
Some "cornucopians" claim that the Earth has something like a creamy nougat center of "abiotic" oil that will naturally replenish the great oil fields of the world. The facts speak differently. There has been no replacement whatsoever of oil already extracted from the fields of America or any other place.
SpaceMagic said:are perfectly formulated to capture people's imagination and make them think that they, the writer, is absolutely right. Formula goes: Give the other point of view in a round about way, make an assertive comment (the facts speak differently) then rubbish the comment. Without ANY evidence either way. Now I don't know anything about this abiotic oil so as a reader I'd like a link to evidence for that, then i'd like a link showing evidence against. I don't want to be told what to believe.
SpaceMagic said:I could go on and on about these articles, the fact one is from Rolling Stones speaks for itself. Now, I'm probably going to get flamed for not agreeing with most left-wingers who, i'm sorry, more or less believe anything. I'm so glad the Bush administration held tough at the G8 summit.. at least someone has some sense.
Mr. Anderson said:I think the reality of what's going to happen will be somewhere between the apocalyptic vision of the articles and what we have now. There's no doubt on the limits of the natural resources, but one very important thing to remember is that as fuel becomes more expensive, other technologies become more viable.
Its going to get rough for a while, there is no doubt, especially if the US sees $3/gal gas prices next year (as some predict).
D
SpaceMagic said:On a funny side, some predict $3/gal hehe in the UK diesel/gas at the moment is $6.2 a gallon.
gwuMACaddict said:why is that funny?
SpaceMagic said:I hate articles like this which pass themselves off as fact, yet give hardly any or no evidence.
SpaceMagic said:Now, I'm probably going to get flamed for not agreeing with most left-wingers who, i'm sorry, more or less believe anything. I'm so glad the Bush administration held tough at the G8 summit.. at least someone has some sense.
MongoTheGeek said:Actually Walmart and Aldi are moving down the road towards helping very quickly, both are all about shaving the costs down. Costs are an indicator of the resources required to make something. The price of the 50p apple includes the plastic to wrap it in, the 18" receipt and the tissue paper. As well as the lights in the store and the clerk that checks it out and the cost of flying the thing in from half way around the planet, washing it and dipping it in food grade paraffin.
CanadaRAM said:Nope. Costs are an indicator of the costs required to make something.
Environmental impact and resource usage are not causally linked to cost.
Examples:
100% recycled photocopier paper costs twice as much as paper made from virgin fibre.
We ship anvils and nails and all manner of bulky, heavy and low value stuff from the Far East on large container ships, even though we have cleaner and closer factories in NAmerica for the same goods, because the 90% lower labour costs overseas outweighs all the the wasted resources in shipping.
Not to mention that if a country maintains lower standards of living, industrial pollution and waste than another country, that waste and pollution is reflected in a LOWER cost of goods, not higher.
Same with food. We take a head of lettuce, which has been irrigated with the last remaining water from the western US aquifer (or brought in from 500 miles away, draining the Colorado river), liberally fertilized and pesticized, ship it 3,000 miles in a refrigerated truck, consuming diesel, riding on an ever-expanding wasteland of ashphalt and concrete. Why? Because it is still cheaper to grow that lettuce in volume in California than it is to grow locally in a greenhouse.
A manufacturing plant dumps toxic waste on their site rather than treating it. They are able to charge less for their goods. They go out of business at some point. The land is now poisoned and will cost $10's or $100's of millions to become useable and safe. The costs have simply been deferred, not saved. But the goods were less expensive.
Last example: Dude wants money. Smashes my car window to get $5 in parking change. His cost of goods is zero, therefore it is an infinitely good use of resources?
SpaceMagic said:It's called irony. You're worrying about $3/gal when we pay $6.2.. there's nothing funny about it.
CanadaRAM said:Nope. Costs are an indicator of the costs required to make something.
Environmental impact and resource usage are not causally linked to cost.
CanadaRAM said:Examples:
100% recycled photocopier paper costs twice as much as paper made from virgin fibre.
CanadaRAM said:We ship anvils and nails and all manner of bulky, heavy and low value stuff from the Far East on large container ships, even though we have cleaner and closer factories in NAmerica for the same goods, because the 90% lower labour costs overseas outweighs all the the wasted resources in shipping.
CanadaRAM said:Not to mention that if a country maintains lower standards of living, industrial pollution and waste than another country, that waste and pollution is reflected in a LOWER cost of goods, not higher.
CanadaRAM said:Same with food. We take a head of lettuce, which has been irrigated with the last remaining water from the western US aquifer (or brought in from 500 miles away, draining the Colorado river), liberally fertilized and pesticized, ship it 3,000 miles in a refrigerated truck, consuming diesel, riding on an ever-expanding wasteland of ashphalt and concrete. Why? Because it is still cheaper to grow that lettuce in volume in California than it is to grow locally in a greenhouse.
CanadaRAM said:Disposable packaging (styrofoam, blow-moulded plastic, shrink wrap) generally costs less than reusable or recyclable packaging. Partially because the costs of landfilling the result never shows up in the accounts.
CanadaRAM said:Last example: Dude wants money. Smashes my car window to get $5 in parking change. His cost of goods is zero, therefore it is an infinitely good use of resources?
wdlove said:I think that the energy prices are run on a speculation basis, psychology and not necessarily reality.certainly. the questions about how much oil is remaining are just emerging and have little to do with the current run up in price.
MongoTheGeek said:And the resources dedicated to preventing the pollution are included in the prices of the goods.
CanadaRAM said:Sorry Mongo, I don't understand your rebuttals.
If you want to redefine the terms resources, that's fine. If you want to discount the effect of environmental degradation, you can but I don't agree with you.
CanadaRAM said:Your original contention was that resource usage is less in items that cost less.
CanadaRAM said:My contention is that there is no such direct-line relationship.
CanadaRAM said:If you want to say items that cost less consume less directly spent money on resources, then I can go along with that to a certain extent. But not that fewer resources are consumed.
CanadaRAM said:I did not say that recycled paper was EASIER to produce than virgin paper (and that is indicated in the price) but that fewer resources overall are consumed by putting waste paper back into new paper, rather than landfilling the waste paper and cutting new trees. The fact that virgin fibre is less expensive is more due to the fact that stumpage rates are far lower than the real cost of forestry, that the transportation and tax structures subsidize forestry, that the recycling production stream has not hit its economies of scale yet.
CanadaRAM said:The fact that it's our children and grandchildren who have to pay for the loss of a forest or the destruction of freshwater supply makes the costs hard to calculate but they cannot be ignored.
CanadaRAM said:For present day examples of past "production efficiencies", see Love Canal, PG&E (Erin Brockovich), Minimata disease, Bhopal, Chernobyl, and a thousand others. The entities that benefited from the sales of goods never accounted for the eventual costs - and most got away scot-free.
CanadaRAM said:My point in the smash-and-grab example was: if you choose not to account cost the $300 I had to pay for the broken window, then break and enter is very resource efficient for the thief. They get all the benefit at no cost of goods. According to their accounting, the resource consumption is minimal.
Another analogy: cut down a coconut tree to pick the nuts, it's faster and cheaper than climbing the tree. As long as it's someone else's tree, you have reduced the cost of resources considerably. Your profit in this fiscal year is better. It's all in what you leave on or off the balance sheet.
CanadaRAM said:A bottle of Giorgio with 1/4 oz. of water, alchohol and fragrant oils is about $85. A similar no-name perfume with the same ingredients is $20. Your model concludes that the Giorgio consumes more resources and the no-name less. Nike brand shorts on the shelf next to EXACTLY the same shorts without the swoosh - $25 vs $12.
CanadaRAM said:Market pricing is market pricing, it bears little relationship to the true cost of the resources consumed.
PS If you start defining gross profit as a resource, I'm a-goin' to upchuck....