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Mad Mac Maniac
Jun 4, 2012, 12:11 PM
Microsoft (at least for win7 and win8) releases their beta's for free to anyone who wants to download it.

I can think of two main reaons and possibly a 3rd for beta's to exist.
1) For developers to test their apps in the new OS
2) To be guinea pigs to allow for sufficent bug testing
And the possible 3) to get advanced feedback/suggestions regarding any changes

Reasons 2 and 3 would be further helped further by the more and more people who use it.

I'm sure some of you will respond something along the lines of "The last thing we need is the general public complaining about how buggy it is or screwing up their computer etc etc" But I think that if someone takes the effort to go to Apple.com and download this clearly marked "BETA" operating system they are sufficiently geeky enough and/or know well enough that it is a beta system and to expect many problems. If it screws anything up I'm sure it's a pretty simply process to remove the Beta (and redownload if you wish).

I'm assuming to download ML you partition your hard drive (a la boot camp) and then you can dual boot into which ever OS you want?



heisenberg123
Jun 4, 2012, 12:16 PM
Microsoft (at least for win7 and win8) releases their beta's for free to anyone who wants to download it.

I can think of two main reaons and possibly a 3rd for beta's to exist.
1) For developers to test their apps in the new OS
2) To be guinea pigs to allow for sufficent bug testing
And the possible 3) to get advanced feedback/suggestions regarding any changes

Reasons 2 and 3 would be further helped further by the more and more people who use it.

I'm sure some of you will respond something along the lines of "The last thing we need is the general public complaining about how buggy it is or screwing up their computer etc etc" But I think that if someone takes the effort to go to Apple.com and download this clearly marked "BETA" operating system they are sufficiently geeky enough and/or know well enough that it is a beta system and to expect many problems. If it screws anything up I'm sure it's a pretty simply process to remove the Beta (and redownload if you wish).
I'm assuming to download ML you partition your hard drive (a la boot camp) and then you can dual boot into which ever OS you want?

this is were you not correct, non geeks also think they need that newest OS

Peace
Jun 4, 2012, 12:19 PM
Microsoft like to get input from the "average user" to find out what to use.

Apple likes to let the "average user" know what they use.

Mad Mac Maniac
Jun 4, 2012, 12:30 PM
this is were you not correct, non geeks also think they need that newest OS

Really? Do non geeks even know what Mountain Lion is? If it were released through the MAS or through software update that would be one thing. But for a person to actually go seek it out they would at least need to be knowledgable enough to realize to expect a buggy experience. Apple could even give a warning before you download. Microsoft has been doing it and the sky isn't falling.

Microsoft like to get input from the "average user" to find out what to use.

Apple likes to let the "average user" know what they use.

touche. That is possibly why "reason 3" wouldn't really be a heavily used argument for Apple, but surely they wouldn't mind extra bug catchers. It would probably help speed up the release cycle.

Also, I know it doesn't seem like it at times, but Apple does listen to the consumer some of the time. Sure sometimes Apple thinks they know best, but if we convey a convincing argument it could help. We are getting the option to degroup apps in mission control after all!

Peace
Jun 4, 2012, 12:34 PM
The iOS developer program is only $99 whereas the MSDN is around $399

With either one you can submit bugs that will get the attention of engineers.

MikhailT
Jun 4, 2012, 12:41 PM
1. All developers registered through the Apple Developer program already get betas or seeds of the new OS.

2. Apple internally test the seeds with their own staff at their campuses (tens of thousands) and plus the developers, they already have enough for their own needs.

3. Apple do provide seeds to certain set of the general public through their AppleSeed Program. Usually for people who are experiencing software or hardware issues that won't be fixed until the new OS is released. They're probably also contact people who provided previous feedback about certain changes.

MS needs the open beta program because they have to encounter all sorts of hardware configurations whereas Apple already knows all the possible combinations.

There is no need for Apple to provide an open beta program. What they need to do is overhaul their bug reporting system because they're rather inefficient and irritates all developers who might be less tempted to provide more bug reports.

heisenberg123
Jun 4, 2012, 12:58 PM
Really? Do non geeks even know what Mountain Lion is? If it were released through the MAS or through software update that would be one thing. But for a person to actually go seek it out they would at least need to be knowledgable enough to realize to expect a buggy experience. Apple could even give a warning before you download. Microsoft has been doing it and the sky isn't falling.


just go read some of the posts on 10.8 threads


example #1

if i download ML DP how do i downgrade

example # 2

is it safe to use as a primary OS

those are real examples by the way not be trying to prove my point with fiction

Peace
Jun 4, 2012, 01:01 PM
just go read some of the posts on 10.8 threads


example #1

if i download ML DP how do i downgrade

example # 2

is it safe to use as a primary OS

those are real examples by the way not be trying to prove my point with fiction

In all fairness to those type of posts had Apple released betas in the wild for 10 years like MS does those kind of questions probably wouldn't be asked.

Comeagain?
Jun 4, 2012, 01:02 PM
Siri is in beta. Does that stop people from complaining about that?

PlaceofDis
Jun 4, 2012, 01:10 PM
they don't do a public release because it is just too much hassle. Apple assumes that if you're a Dev that you know what you're getting into and are capable of handling any issues that might arise with a Beta OS, such as creating a partition for it and how to downgrade and have reliable backups. the general public, even so-called geeks on this forum will certainly have issues and then not only does Apple have to deal with such problems from a PR standpoint but also in the form of support.

i think MS does the public betas for a few reasons that work in their favor: to gain a 'good' feeling from the general public, to get more bug reports, and to get people excited about the release. Apple, on the other hand, gets people to upgrade much more easily than MS so they don't have to worry about the first and last items so its just not worth the inevitable hassle that comes along with it.

AustinIllini
Jun 4, 2012, 01:20 PM
In all fairness to those type of posts had Apple released betas in the wild for 10 years like MS does those kind of questions probably wouldn't be asked.

They most certainly would. Why would Apple release betas to the public? They did that with Siri, and I would argue more than expected are unhappy with it. Release the OS when it's ready, the last thing I want is a computer with a primary OS as an unstable one (see also Windows ME, Windows Vista, etc.)

AppleDApp
Jun 4, 2012, 01:21 PM
Really? Do non geeks even know what Mountain Lion is?

Non geeks probably do know what Mountain Lion is as mainstream media has written articles about it. Press release (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012/02/16Apple-Releases-OS-X-Mountain-Lion-Developer-Preview-with-Over-100-New-Features.html) Hufftington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/16/os-x-mountain-lion-the-9-_n_1281511.html) and the WSJ (http://www.macstories.net/links/tim-cook-on-mountain-lion/) I couldn't find the original link. So the General public was informed about it. Do they care? probably not so much. Same idea on the Windows side. Microsoft announces a new OS, Mainstream media talks about it. A week later,all is forgotten.

Edit As an added note, Apple does release Beta software to the general public. Siri, messages (iChats replacement. will be released in Mountain Lion.) and Safari 5.2 are all beta software.

Mad Mac Maniac
Jun 4, 2012, 01:39 PM
Siri is in beta. Does that stop people from complaining about that?

Wow are you really comparing the two? Siri is a feature that is not only forced on every iPhone 4S sold, but is hugely advertised. Apple said the word "beta" so they would have a defense when people complained (because apple knew there would be issues). They certainly havn't been treating it as any beta product. I'm sure the average person doesn't know.

What I am suggesting would require the user to seek out the ML beta, probably get a warning and explination on how to partition, install, and remove the partition if needed, then the user would have to download a known, buggy, betta.

Non geeks probably do know what Mountain Lion is as mainstream media has written articles about it. Press release (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012/02/16Apple-Releases-OS-X-Mountain-Lion-Developer-Preview-with-Over-100-New-Features.html) Hufftington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/16/os-x-mountain-lion-the-9-_n_1281511.html) and the WSJ (http://www.macstories.net/links/tim-cook-on-mountain-lion/) I couldn't find the original link. So the General public was informed about it. Do they care? probably not so much. Same idea on the Windows side. Microsoft announces a new OS, Mainstream media talks about it. A week later,all is forgotten.

Just because a few mainstream media outlets have released a single article about ML doesn't mean the average person knows what it is... even if they had read the article they wouldn't even think to go try to download it. The articles clearly mention it won't be released till late summer.

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Edit As an added note, Apple does release Beta software to the general public. Siri, messages (iChats replacement. will be released in Mountain Lion.) and Safari 5.2 are all beta software.

You are only reinforcing my question then. I'm referring specifically to OS X. (Siri is clearly an abiration so I'll ignore that) If Messages and Safari (and I remember facetime was also, probably more) can be available to the public as a beta why not OS X?

AppleDApp
Jun 4, 2012, 01:41 PM
Just because a few mainstream media outlets have released a single article about ML doesn't mean the average person knows what it is... even if they had read the article they wouldn't even think to go try to download it. The articles clearly mention it won't be released till late summer.

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You are only reinforcing my question then. I'm referring specifically to OS X. (Siri is clearly an abiration so I'll ignore that) If Messages and Safari (and I remember facetime was also, probably more) can be available to the public as a beta why not OS X?

Offering an OS as a beta software for the GP is just a big headache. The article does mention that ML will be available in the summer. If the article said that ML was available for a Beta release, do you think the GP would go and download it?

heisenberg123
Jun 4, 2012, 02:02 PM
Wow are you really comparing the two? Siri is a feature that is not only forced on every iPhone 4S sold, but is hugely advertised. Apple said the word "beta" so they would have a defense when people complained (because apple knew there would be issues). They certainly havn't been treating it as any beta product. I'm sure the average person doesn't know.

What I am suggesting would require the user to seek out the ML beta, probably get a warning and explination on how to partition, install, and remove the partition if needed, then the user would have to download a known, buggy, betta.



Just because a few mainstream media outlets have released a single article about ML doesn't mean the average person knows what it is... even if they had read the article they wouldn't even think to go try to download it. The articles clearly mention it won't be released till late summer.

----------



You are only reinforcing my question then. I'm referring specifically to OS X. (Siri is clearly an abiration so I'll ignore that) If Messages and Safari (and I remember facetime was also, probably more) can be available to the public as a beta why not OS X?

apple.com had the preview of ML the non geeks go to apple.com believe it or not and if a free beta was available you darn right non geeks would be clicking away

Blipp
Jun 4, 2012, 03:09 PM
Really? Do non geeks even know what Mountain Lion is? If it were released through the MAS or through software update that would be one thing. But for a person to actually go seek it out they would at least need to be knowledgable enough to realize to expect a buggy experience. Apple could even give a warning before you download. Microsoft has been doing it and the sky isn't falling.


Have you been following these forums much? Every single day there seems to be someone panicking because they need to downgrade back to Lion and don't know what they're doing with ML or a beta OS in general. It's unfortunate but it's true.

People love to think they're special because they have access to betas but then they complain and complain like they're using paid software. They make forum posts and, even worse, one star app reviews saying things like "Random app X doesn't work in Mountain Lion so it's a piece of junk. DO NOT BUY!".

Apple makes it pretty easy to get into the developer license for those who need to be and I've heard they will invite some non-developer users into the betas as well. A developer is much more likely to provide useful feedback on beta errors and tweaks than the average user. I think their current system is fine as long as they leave the OS in the beta oven long enough for it to bake before serving it to the general public.

Mad Mac Maniac
Jun 4, 2012, 03:32 PM
Have you been following these forums much? Every single day there seems to be someone panicking because they need to downgrade back to Lion and don't know what they're doing with ML or a beta OS in general. It's unfortunate but it's true.

Well I'm not a dev so I don't hang out here too much, and certainly am not interested in any of the threads you are talking about. I would just ignore.

I think a lot of the issues you discuss would be fixed (they would need to be) if Apple decided to make the beta's more publicly available. First they would add sufficent beta warnings and documentation explaining how to easily install and uninstall the beta. Secondly they would need to deactivate rating from beta software. I seem to remember they had that issue with iOS 5 and I believe they eventually disabled it?

And remember, just because it's available doesn't mean everyone will download it. I wish I had the percentage numbers of how many people download Windows betas. I think the people that are more likely to download a beta are more likely be power users that can help test bugs etc.

heisenberg123
Jun 4, 2012, 06:04 PM
Well I'm not a dev so I don't hang out here too much, and certainly am not interested in any of the threads you are talking about. I would just ignore.

I think a lot of the issues you discuss would be fixed (they would need to be) if Apple decided to make the beta's more publicly available. First they would add sufficent beta warnings and documentation explaining how to easily install and uninstall the beta. Secondly they would need to deactivate rating from beta software. I seem to remember they had that issue with iOS 5 and I believe they eventually disabled it?

And remember, just because it's available doesn't mean everyone will download it. I wish I had the percentage numbers of how many people download Windows betas. I think the people that are more likely to download a beta are more likely be power users that can help test bugs etc.


is this really about $99?

i bet my left nut that anyone that really needs the beta has a dev account heck ill bet the other nut some have a dev account just for fun and have never developed a thing

Mad Mac Maniac
Jun 4, 2012, 07:08 PM
is this really about $99?

i bet my left nut that anyone that really needs the beta has a dev account heck ill bet the other nut some have a dev account just for fun and have never developed a thing

Well sure anyone could pay for a dev account, but I can't rationalize paying $99 to get an OS a few months early.. An OS that will at MOST cost $29 (possibly free).

I don't need it for any reason but I would definitely enjoy messing around with it and looking for bugs etc.

But I guess it'll never be. It's not that big a deal. Perhaps it's for the best. I just get anxious wanting to see the new OS. haha

Burton8219
Jun 4, 2012, 07:17 PM
The main reason that there's no public betas for OS X and many other things is the same answer that's been said in here and in many other places... Lack of knowledge of beta procedures/protocols. Why on earth would Apple give beta copies of OS X to people who when they report bugs can't tell them anything other than their computer froze when using X application? You think the average joe would catch something that a person who is familiar with programming and developing programs for OS X wouldn't?

Also the main reason for this program is so people can develop applications or update their application to work with said OS... why have people who have no intention of doing so install pre-release software? Actively seeking out the software doesn't mean you know anything about the process.

Last thing: In essence the betas are available to the public... for a fee. Pay 99 bucks for the year and you can play around with pre-release software all you want, but when you boil it down why would a casual user want to use software that hasn't been put through all the paces anyway? Seems rather stupid to me and like what was said before it looks like people just want to have the hot thing at the moment.

throAU
Jun 4, 2012, 09:20 PM
A: because they don't want to deal with calls from curious mac users who run the beta in production when they really shouldn't.


If you pay your $99 developer subscription, at least they've recovered some of the time/money required to support it - the 99 bucks gives you a couple of support incidents in addition to a code signing certificate.

But I think that if someone takes the effort to go to Apple.com and download this clearly marked "BETA" operating system they are sufficiently geeky enough and/or know well enough that it is a beta system and to expect many problems. If it screws anything up I'm sure it's a pretty simply process to remove the Beta (and redownload if you wish).


A lot of people think they are more technically competent than they are in reality. A lot of people also think "she'll be right!" running beta code in production because their friend had no issue. A lot of people also do not have adequate backups to recover from failure.

Yes, the current ML beta is pretty solid. However this may not always be the case with beta software, and the last thing apple needs is a bunch of apple zealots dealing with major fallout because a beta pre-release OS took a dump on their machine.


edit:
Siri is a beta that is out there because it is 99% server based and won't trash your phone. Beta versions of OS X may include driver updates, major API changes that will break your applications, etc.

Mr. Retrofire
Jun 4, 2012, 10:14 PM
Why doesn't Apple release their Beta to the general public?
Apples (Mac) OS X 10.x.0 system is always bug-free. ;-)

mrsir2009
Jun 4, 2012, 11:23 PM
Siri is in beta. Does that stop people from complaining about that?

True... Although Siri was included on the iPhone. You didn't have to go through the Apple website and read warnings to download and get it.

pdjudd
Jun 4, 2012, 11:30 PM
Not to mention that the kink of data that Apple needs to test Siri is something that cannot be tested in a small group. Apple’s biggest concern with OSX is to make sure it runs in a stable manner on it’s hardware platforms and that the software works.

Siri needs tons of different data types given the various inputs that it receives down to the sex of the speaker, speech type, language, accents, and all of the nuances not to mention the possibility of requests that are going to get made. That sort of thing needs a large body of users to refine. Apple can’t just do that in house - no way anybody can just do that in house.

Billywiz1307
Jun 5, 2012, 07:58 AM
Surely running a Beta is not just about finding and reporting bugs.

If Beta testers were involved in the release of Lion, why on earth didn't even the dimmest wit of a beta tester spot and report that everything had gone grey, from Finder sidebar icons to those in iTunes etc etc. And if Apple still wanted their "control freak way", why not make those changes an option.

throAU
Jun 5, 2012, 08:41 PM
Surely running a Beta is not just about finding and reporting bugs.

If Beta testers were involved in the release of Lion, why on earth didn't even the dimmest wit of a beta tester spot and report that everything had gone grey, from Finder sidebar icons to those in iTunes etc etc. And if Apple still wanted their "control freak way", why not make those changes an option.

Apple don't do usability surveys of their users.

And the grey icons is a plus/minus depending on your point of view. it is less distracting.

Krazy Bill
Jun 6, 2012, 07:59 AM
Comparing a beta testing program for OSX to Windows is apples to oranges. Windows is on 9 out of 10 machines out there and Microsoft is primarily a Software Company so they had better get it close to right as possible the first launch (especially since Vista).

And given Apple's revenue stream... OSX devices are a drop in the bucket so why would they invest resources in a public beta program? Especially when they can have developers pay to test it for them.

jnl1211
Jun 10, 2012, 12:29 AM
Umm, I've been running ML since preview release day. I'm not a dev, dont have a dev registered iMac. Go to Apple.com and anyone can download it. How's that not general public?

taedouni
Jun 10, 2012, 12:51 AM
I believe that the main reason why they do not release their OS betas to the public is because these betas contain a lot of bugs and issues and they do not want ignorant users to think that the final product will contain these bugs.

They release it only to developers because developers (real ones, not individuals who just purchase the license so that they can just show off having the latest OS on their Apple device) know what to look for and they are developing applications for the OSX platform.

Mal
Jun 10, 2012, 08:11 AM
Umm, I've been running ML since preview release day. I'm not a dev, dont have a dev registered iMac. Go to Apple.com and anyone can download it. How's that not general public?

No, not just anyone can download Mountain Lion. If you're not part of the Developer Program, you don't have any access to it from Apple's website either. Perhaps your memory is slipping? You certainly didn't just download it from the main consumer-facing site, because it doesn't exist there. The only place you can get a legitimate copy is from developers.apple.com. Not exactly for the general public.

jW

Burton8219
Jun 10, 2012, 10:03 AM
Umm, I've been running ML since preview release day. I'm not a dev, dont have a dev registered iMac. Go to Apple.com and anyone can download it. How's that not general public?

Nope. The reason there's a DP in all the releases is cause it stands for Developer Preview, not Random Consumer Preview. You might have downloaded the Messages beta that they have on the ML section of the site but you don't have a full copy of a DP of ML unless you got it from the developer site or an outside site. Either way you didn't get it right from the main Apple site.

roadbloc
Jun 10, 2012, 10:26 AM
Umm, I've been running ML since preview release day. I'm not a dev, dont have a dev registered iMac. Go to Apple.com and anyone can download it. How's that not general public?

Sounds legit.

Jessica Lares
Jun 10, 2012, 10:40 AM
Apple DID release a public beta when OS X first came out. But that was back when the GUI totally changed.

The Mac OS X Public Beta (internally codenamed "Kodiak") was an early beta version of Apple Computer's Mac OS X operating system Cheetah. It was released to the public on September 13, 2000 for US$29.95. It allowed software developers and early adopters to test a preview of the upcoming operating system and develop software for the forthcoming operating system before its final release. It had a build number of 1H39.

But this kind of scheme is useless now, especially since system updates are in place and pretty much 99.9% of people use their Macs while on the internet. And DPs are meant for developers wanting to take advantage of the new APIs, nothing more. They are not stable for the general public and by the time they are, Apple would rather just release it and make adjustments via system updates for the rest of its lifespan.

And running preview software is not enjoyable. You go from having a nice computer with your nice iTunes library, nice Safari bookmarks, with all your applications setup correctly, to having a computer that you have to reset every month or week because you either have to clean wipe, or things get messed up in the upgrade path. It's too much work just to be able to use a few new features that aren't even stable enough to begin with.

Windows 8 had to be a consumer preview. Throwing something out like that on release day wasn't going to be amusing to people. People need to make up their mind now whether they'll be sticking with 7, or upgrading in exchange of pretty much losing all compatibility with everything.

roadbloc
Jun 10, 2012, 11:05 AM
People need to make up their mind now whether they'll be sticking with 7, or upgrading in exchange of pretty much losing all compatibility with everything.

It's interesting you say that as the only compatibility issues I've had with Windows 8 so far is iTunes and a few games off Steam. All my other software and hardware works just fine. I certainly haven't lost compatibility with everything, in fact, now I think about it, I don't think anyone has.

So how did you come up with that bizarre conclusion?

Jessica Lares
Jun 10, 2012, 11:13 AM
It's interesting you say that as the only compatibility issues I've had with Windows 8 so far is iTunes and a few games off Steam. All my other software and hardware works just fine. I certainly haven't lost compatibility with everything, in fact, now I think about it, I don't think anyone has.

So how did you come up with that bizarre conclusion?

Because Microsoft is pushing for you to only get Metro apps and Microsoft Office. It's not visually pleasing to the eye to have those ugly little icons everywhere in square boxes.

roadbloc
Jun 10, 2012, 11:27 AM
Because Microsoft is pushing for you to only get Metro apps and Microsoft Office. It's not visually pleasing to the eye to have those ugly little icons everywhere in square boxes.

You still haven't answered my question. All you have done there is state the obvious (Microsoft is trying to sell software) and add an opinion (you don't like Metro). Have you even used Windows 8?

Jessica Lares
Jun 10, 2012, 11:52 AM
You still haven't answered my question. All you have done there is state the obvious (Microsoft is trying to sell software) and add an opinion (you don't like Metro). Have you even used Windows 8?

Wait there a minute. I LOVE Metro. You have no idea how much I'm really enjoying those apps. A breath of fresh air was a OS that really needed it.

What I'm saying is that there is SOME compatibility, but it's not what you want in that new environment. It's like using iOS, but then having a messenger app on the side of the screen with the OS X interface.

jnl1211
Jun 10, 2012, 05:21 PM
Nope. The reason there's a DP in all the releases is cause it stands for Developer Preview, not Random Consumer Preview. You might have downloaded the Messages beta that they have on the ML section of the site but you don't have a full copy of a DP of ML unless you got it from the developer site or an outside site. Either way you didn't get it right from the main Apple site.

Okay. If you say so. I'm pretty sure I know where I got it from. Haven't checked but the first dev preview was downloadable from Apple's official site. I'm pretty sure I'd know if I had the messages app on Lion.

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Although now of course it's asking for login. It used to be at the bottom of the info page. On the right was Messages Beta and on the left was download ML. Not sure where through the betas it was taken down, havent checked for a while... Maybe it was a mistake and I got it before they realized it? That's been known to happen. Buddy got an iOS version for an old iPhone (2.something) that wasn't ever really realeased during a restore one time. It was so jacked up he restored again and it downloaded a correct version

Burton8219
Jun 10, 2012, 08:29 PM
Okay. If you say so. I'm pretty sure I know where I got it from. Haven't checked but the first dev preview was downloadable from Apple's official site. I'm pretty sure I'd know if I had the messages app on Lion.

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Although now of course it's asking for login. It used to be at the bottom of the info page. On the right was Messages Beta and on the left was download ML. Not sure where through the betas it was taken down, havent checked for a while... Maybe it was a mistake and I got it before they realized it? That's been known to happen. Buddy got an iOS version for an old iPhone (2.something) that wasn't ever really realeased during a restore one time. It was so jacked up he restored again and it downloaded a correct version
I highly doubt Apple would leave a large, almost 4 GB file on the main preview page for ML. I really don't want to go back and forth with you on this. It's a Developer Preview, you are not a registered developer, so you didn't get it from Apple. Like I said before, you can get it from a million sites from people who upload the DMG, but if you aren't a Mac developer you didn't get it from Apple.

swingerofbirch
Jun 10, 2012, 08:45 PM
The only beta of Mac OS X I've used was the Mac OS X 10.0.0 Public Beta. I think it was available for $9.99, and it had a note on the back that said something like, "Thanks for helping us make the world's most advanced desktop operating system." It was amazing, though extremely slow.

While I think that having public betas again could help, I think the other issue is whether Apple even listens to the feedback they get now. If they're not listening now, getting a lot more feedback won't help. In my case I have been a registered developer with Apple for many years (way before the official iOS and Mac developer programs), and I still have my log-in credentials in place; however, I have never been able to log in to bugreport.apple.com, which is odd because my Apple ID works everywhere else. It's not that I receive an error that I am not allowed to log-in; it's just that nothing happens when I try logging in. I e-mailed and called Apple's developer support and they have never responded to me. I'm not sure if they are more responsive to paid members of the development programs. But I also notice they don't even follow up on more general feedback for their web-site. If you look at apple.com/science, you can see they are still advertising Leopard and Mac Pros that are two generations old. I submitted feedback about this that was never acted on. I also submitted feedback on Apple's grammatical errors in iTunes and on their site that was never acted on (Apple never uses direct address commas, e.g., "Welcome Mark," and they often use excessive commas where they're not needed). The only feedback I've ever submitted that may have been acted on was when I sent feedback regarding the MacBook Air page that listed it having the wrong graphics card. However, it's likely they noticed it internally and never looked at my feedback.

Anyhow, my point is that Apple may not be a company that responds to feedback well regardless of how much it gets. I've been trying to get them to fix Bluetooth File Exchange in Lion and at version 10.7.4, it's still not fixed, and I'm not even expecting it to be fixed in Mountain Lion.

pdjudd
Jun 10, 2012, 09:14 PM
I highly doubt Apple would leave a large, almost 4 GB file on the main preview page for ML. I really don't want to go back and forth with you on this. It's a Developer Preview, you are not a registered developer, so you didn't get it from Apple. Like I said before, you can get it from a million sites from people who upload the DMG, but if you aren't a Mac developer you didn't get it from Apple.
I think he’s yanking our chain. On day one there was never a download link for the public - their was for Messages, and maybe a link to developer.apple.com, but I was there the day it was announced and there was nothing that indicated the public could have downloaded it - trust me I would have downloaded it.

You have to be a registered developer - and the way I understand it, they only allow downloading via the MAS via a redemption code. It’s been that way since it was publicly available.

As far as comparing the DP with Microsofts consumer previews - remember that Microsoft sells it’s operating system very differently than Apple does. Microsoft kinda has to do what it does since it licenses it’s OS on a large number of systems and it’s goal is getting adoption by people in large numbers in different situations. Remember, MS has to get adoption in large businesses and enterprises where OS deployment occurs in large numbers. Apple doesn’t have to face this issue so much since their hardware is far more homogenized. Apple’s goal with the DP is to ensure that DP’s get exposed for compatibility and to expose them to new API’s. It isn’t to show off the new OS and to acclimate end users to it’s features. Apple uses it’s keynotes to sow off what it want’s to and limits exposure. They are very minimalistic with their feedback. If they listen to anybody it’s developers who know what’s going on. They are interested in feedback for the technical feedback for compatibility (for stuff that Apple cannot test) - not for the average Joe user. When Apple sells it’s OS, they use their marketing machine and the Price to incentives upgrading - which if there is any history here - it’s not by selling flashy features like MS.

Most people believe it or not, do not buy Windows in retail - their goal is to make sure they reduce the blowback long before it’s released so that they can get deployment. Their isn’t any real privacy or secrecy with Windows - MS has to talk to enterprises and business anyhow to get deployment started. Consumers will adopt it when they get a new computer (just like with the Mac).

In short - Apple doesn’t have to worry about the deployment that MS does since they don’t sell their OS the same way. Apple does have to sell it to consumers, but they don’t need their DP’s to do that, they can market it and practically sell it for nothing. MS has a much harder sell since most of their sales are not directed at consumers but rather to other entities that have much bigger demands. It’s about who has the power - MS doesn’t have much of a choice but to make things public - it’s already going to anyway, but they have a much harder sell since they have to sell licenses for deployment to non consumer entities. Their goal for their previews is to get consumers to demand that vendors deploy current Windows (instead of what happened with Vista where people universally downgraded). Apple is interested in getting developers interested in supporting the OS and making sure it works. Apple will handle the marketing to consumers and getting people to upgrade. But Apple doesn’t have to sell their OS to enterprises and hardware vendors first and foremost - they sell to end users and they don’t need a buggy DP to do that. If anything the DP being buggy gives end users a bad impression of things.

roadbloc
Jun 11, 2012, 02:53 AM
Wait there a minute. I LOVE Metro. You have no idea how much I'm really enjoying those apps. A breath of fresh air was a OS that really needed it.

What I'm saying is that there is SOME compatibility, but it's not what you want in that new environment. It's like using iOS, but then having a messenger app on the side of the screen with the OS X interface.

I'm catching what you're chucking now.

sim667
Jun 11, 2012, 04:25 AM
Because apple know if they're beta is installed by people who dont have a clue what theyre doing and it messes their machines up, then the internet and news will be awash with stories that apple have maliciously damaged their machines.....

Uninformed apple users tend to be a lot more pathetic about bad stuff than most people

amorya
Jun 11, 2012, 04:51 AM
While I think that having public betas again could help, I think the other issue is whether Apple even listens to the feedback they get now. If they're not listening now, getting a lot more feedback won't help.

They listen to some extent. They don't reply to users, and they don't always agree…

Actual bug reports (i.e. things where it's clear to anyone that the software is misbehaving, as opposed to enhancement requests and opinion-based things like icon colours) are most likely to get acted on. Feature requests less so. They implement a system where the more people file radars about something, the higher its priority to be looked at — but it's still not a public voting system: you can't make Apple do anything that doesn't fit in with their grand vision for the platform.

In my case I have been a registered developer with Apple for many years (way before the official iOS and Mac developer programs), and I still have my log-in credentials in place; however, I have never been able to log in to bugreport.apple.com, which is odd because my Apple ID works everywhere else. It's not that I receive an error that I am not allowed to log-in; it's just that nothing happens when I try logging in.

That's odd. Have you tried making a new dev account (a free one) and trying to log in with that? The free accounts can file bugs too.

The only feedback I've ever submitted that may have been acted on was when I sent feedback regarding the MacBook Air page that listed it having the wrong graphics card. However, it's likely they noticed it internally and never looked at my feedback.

The sorts of things I've had acted on are things like a bug where the Xcode 4 Interface Builder was laggy under some circumstances. I posted a video and a sample file that had the problem, and they got it fixed in a future version. That kind of bug (specific in scope, reproducible, with supplied sample data to reproduce the problem) gets attention.

kikuchiyo
Jun 11, 2012, 02:02 PM
In all fairness to those type of posts had Apple released betas in the wild for 10 years like MS does those kind of questions probably wouldn't be asked.

Have you read about the Windows 8 Previews? People were ticked because there was no way to downgrade, even though it's clearly not for production machines. That's why later betas had to be burned to a disc or put on a USB drive to be installed.