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MacRumors
Jun 13, 2012, 08:27 AM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/13/teardown-of-retina-macbook-pro-finds-low-repairability-with-custom-components/)


Following yesterday's teaser teardown of the updated MacBook Air (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/12/teardown-of-mid-2012-macbook-air-reveals-tweaked-ssd-connector/), iFixit has now given Apple's new Retina MacBook Pro the same treatment (http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Display-Teardown/9462/1).

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/06/retina_macbook_pro_teardown.jpg


Apple of course showed off a fair bit of the machines internals during the keynote in order to promote all of the innovations included inside, but iFixit's teardown still provides an interesting hands-on look at the internals.

Unsurprisingly, the Retina MacBook Pro is not designed to be user-accessible, with the slim form factor requiring a number of proprietary components that are designed and assembled for maximum space efficiency rather than upgradeability and repairability. This has resulted in iFixit dubbing (http://ifixit.org/2753/macbook-pro-with-retina-display-teardown/) the machine "the least repairable laptop we've taken apart".

Taking a number of cues from the MacBook Air, the new MacBook Pro uses RAM soldered directly onto the logic board, as well as custom solid-state drives that include a new connector incompatible with existing third-party drives on the market.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/06/retina_macbook_pro_logic_board.jpg


Front of Retina MacBook Pro logic board with CPU (orange), NVIDIA graphics (red), and RAM (green)
Apple has even taken to gluing the large battery into the body of the Retina MacBook Pro, with iFixit ultimately giving up on trying to remove it for fear of puncturing a battery cell. The glued-in battery pack also covers the trackpad cable, making it nearly inaccessible and susceptible to damage if users attempt to remove the battery.

Otherwise, the internals of the Retina MacBook Pro are fairly straightforward, with a large and densely-packed logic board with left-side ports integrated, a separate I/O board for the right-side ports, the asymmetric fan touted by Apple, and custom speaker assemblies.

Article Link: Teardown of Retina MacBook Pro Finds Low Repairability with Custom Components (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/13/teardown-of-retina-macbook-pro-finds-low-repairability-with-custom-components/)



TimUSCA
Jun 13, 2012, 08:29 AM
If AppleCare wasn't justifiable before, it is now.

maflynn
Jun 13, 2012, 08:30 AM
If AppleCare wasn't justifiable before, it is now.

For laptops - applecare was always justifiable.

Pentad
Jun 13, 2012, 08:30 AM
I'm not happy with them moving everything to proprietary.


-P

Tronic
Jun 13, 2012, 08:31 AM
So if you have any battery problems they essentially have to replace the entire machine?

PBP
Jun 13, 2012, 08:31 AM
Well i guess no MBP retina for me then :rolleyes:
Non removable ram and ssd sucks ass, absurd prices for memory/ssd upgrade in the online applestore

Xscapes
Jun 13, 2012, 08:31 AM
Can't upgrade the RAM yourself now.

Clubber
Jun 13, 2012, 08:31 AM
It's a give and take. If you want newer, slimmer, lighter form factors, the manufacturer needs to break away from the designs we've been seeing the last 10 years. I'm all for it, I quit fiddling with the physical aspects of computers a long time ago.

DaveN
Jun 13, 2012, 08:31 AM
I would have at least liked the ram and 'ssd' to be upgradable. Those are the only things I upgrade anyway. As the previous poster noted, it sure makes Applecare more justifiable.

FFArchitect
Jun 13, 2012, 08:31 AM
Well yea. At some point if you want all that in a small package, repairability will diminish.

basesloaded190
Jun 13, 2012, 08:32 AM
Being members to a tech blog like we all are, I think we forget there are a lot of people who have no desire to open up their machine to tinker with it, and will be more than satisfied with what comes in the box.

maflynn
Jun 13, 2012, 08:33 AM
I'm not happy with them moving everything to proprietary.

Not making excuses for apple, but is that all surprising. They were less then pleased when the people rolled out SSD upgrades to the MBA. So I'm sure they redesigned them in a way that will prevent someone else from doing the same (at least legally)

samac92
Jun 13, 2012, 08:33 AM
Expected really. You just have to think ahead about your RAM before you purchase. Good to see SSD options will likely be available in the future though.

MOKHAN
Jun 13, 2012, 08:33 AM
Aw, I figured as much when seeing how thin it was. I'm curious as to how Apple will be replacing components for users who have defective/damaged machines.

Kaibelf
Jun 13, 2012, 08:34 AM
Well i guess no MBP retina for me then :rolleyes:
Non removable ram and ssd sucks ass, absurd prices for memory/ssd upgrade in the online applestore

Then buy something that isn't so tightly designed that fumbling around in it would cause a problem. There, nice and easy.

G5isAlive
Jun 13, 2012, 08:34 AM
I know I am shocked. Just shocked. I will definitely leave Apple now to find something much bigger and heavier that I can take apart with my walmart screw drivers.

Or I could just enjoy using a lighter machine with a beautiful display.

MH01
Jun 13, 2012, 08:35 AM
Was hoping the SSD could be upgraded. :(

This kinda sucks, means one should buy the 512 SSD for futureproofing.

bbeagle
Jun 13, 2012, 08:35 AM
I'm not happy with them moving everything to proprietary.


You can either have something small, or something proprietary. Not both.

Apple chose that to build custom parts so that they used as little space as possible, and were the shape and size to fit inside their laptops. Using proprietary parts, you have to use the size and shape that the third party manufacturers make. You're stuck with someone else telling you how small you can make a laptop. Apple now controls their own designs.

I'd rather have a design which is smaller, lighter, has more battery power that I USE EVERY DAY, instead of make it heavier, bigger and have less batteries for the one day out of 5 years that makes repairing it easier.

WannaGoMac
Jun 13, 2012, 08:35 AM
Isn't this always the cycle with Apple? new model has proprietary parts and not user servicable, then eventually Apple modifies it so you an add ram yourself and hard drives. Apple did with with the Mini and prior Macbook Pros too

So it's not the service for repair apple defenders, it's the fact we cant add ram and an aftermarket hard drive.

SprodeBoy
Jun 13, 2012, 08:36 AM
Is Ram interchangeable in the MBPR?

Small White Car
Jun 13, 2012, 08:36 AM
You know the saying, "x, x, & x. Pick 2."

In this case it's "super thin, long battery life, & user-serviceable"

Apple picked their favorite 2 and they're the exact choices anyone could have predicted they'd make.

troop231
Jun 13, 2012, 08:36 AM
I would have at least liked the ram and 'ssd' to be upgradable. Those are the only things I upgrade anyway. As the previous poster noted, it sure makes Applecare more justifiable.

The SSD is upgradable... OWC offers their own SSD modules, and they are working on new ones for the Retina MBPs.

surma884
Jun 13, 2012, 08:36 AM
The only thing I hate about this is the battery. If the battery dies you can't replace it yourself.

pr0t0type
Jun 13, 2012, 08:37 AM
Isn't that flash storage, and not a sdd which is built in? Or is both the same?

smithrh
Jun 13, 2012, 08:37 AM
Not making excuses for apple, but is that all surprising. They were less then pleased when the people rolled out SSD upgrades to the MBA. So I'm sure they redesigned them in a way that will prevent someone else from doing the same (at least legally)

You may indeed be right, but I've never heard this before. Any link or attribution?

EvilEvil
Jun 13, 2012, 08:37 AM
For laptops - applecare was always justifiable.

Doesn't cover wear and tear.

troop231
Jun 13, 2012, 08:38 AM
Isn't that flash storage, and not a sdd which is built in? Or is both the same?

Solid State Device/Drive == flash. Apple just doesn't use the typical drive enclosure box; they save space this way.

G5isAlive
Jun 13, 2012, 08:38 AM
Not making excuses for apple, but is that all surprising. They were less then pleased when the people rolled out SSD upgrades to the MBA. So I'm sure they redesigned them in a way that will prevent someone else from doing the same (at least legally)

Actually I read that the design was changed to accommodate a different bus bandwidth and that the third party people were already working on a solution. I doubt seriously it was designed JUST to thwart current third party upgrades, although no doubt that is considered a side benefit to Apple. Keep in mind Apple has been working on this design for a long time.

Apple's 'defense' against third party upgrades will stay the same, it voids the warranty. And with these machines being harder to fix, that means a lot.

ObjectiveV
Jun 13, 2012, 08:39 AM
Anyone else think "Retina MacBook Pro" is going to start being too much of a mouthful?

How about "Retina Book"? We already call the iPod Touch the "iTouch".


Edit: Wow -10. Looks like I angered the Macrumor gods

iSunrise
Jun 13, 2012, 08:39 AM
Isn't that flash storage, and not a sdd which is built in? Or is both the same?
It´s NAND-flash (which is used for SSDs) without the casing, not RAM flash.

NextGenApple
Jun 13, 2012, 08:39 AM
8g should be suffient for most NOW its in the future problems could occur. Best thing for Apple is that PROS might add extra ram making more money for Apple. Main thing is to purchase AppleCare anyway. Most PROS or money people will upgrade within the 3 year period.

For such an expensive product it's a shame but that's the price you pay for wanting thin laptops/desktops

anthorumor
Jun 13, 2012, 08:39 AM
It still amazes me how much power is packed into that tiny logic board. Oh well, as long as Apple keeps the old MacBook Pro conventional design for a little while longer then that will satisfy some customers.

Small White Car
Jun 13, 2012, 08:40 AM
You may indeed be right, but I've never heard this before. Any link or attribution?

Proof that they changed the SSD connector? Here:

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/12/teardown-of-mid-2012-macbook-air-reveals-tweaked-ssd-connector/

But proof that they did it to screw people over? That, it's not. The new connection works at a faster speed. Who are we to say that a faster connection didn't require a physical redesign?

Sneakz
Jun 13, 2012, 08:40 AM
Front of Retina MacBook Pro logic board with CPU (red), NVIDIA graphics (orange), and RAM (green)[/center]


I believe the CPU is orange, GPU is red and the yellow would be the Platform Controller Hub.

ristlin
Jun 13, 2012, 08:41 AM
I know I am shocked. Just shocked. I will definitely leave Apple now to find something much bigger and heavier that I can take apart with my walmart screw drivers.

Or I could just enjoy using a lighter machine with a beautiful display.

Classic.

sweetbrat
Jun 13, 2012, 08:41 AM
People want faster, premium performance in increasingly smaller form factors. When that happens, the way things are put together has to change. Apple did an amazing job of cramming everything into that tiny, thin case. It's not surprising that they had to use custom parts in order to do it. If there's a piece that prevents you from fitting everything together, would you rather have them say, "Nope, we can't do it. It just won't fit, we have to make the case thicker" or would you rather have them come up with a solution? Custom parts are the solution, because they can be made to whatever size is needed.

This is definitely a strong reason to purchase Applecare. I generally think it's a good idea for all laptops, but I'd say it's a necessity for this one.

G5isAlive
Jun 13, 2012, 08:42 AM
Doesn't cover wear and tear.

re apple care...

and what does? do you want to swap out the body to replace 'wear and tear'? or do you mean you want to be able to replace parts if you drop the machine? There is a program to swap batteries on the unibody (the part that can wear out). There is less wear and tear with flash drives. Not sure what wear and tear you think should be covered by Apple Care that is a real concern.

smithrh
Jun 13, 2012, 08:42 AM
Proof that they changed the SSD connector? Here:

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/12/teardown-of-mid-2012-macbook-air-reveals-tweaked-ssd-connector/

No, not that... anyone following this knew that...

But proof that they did it to screw people over? That, it's not. The new connection works at a faster speed. Who are we to say that a faster connection didn't require a physical redesign?

Yes, that.

RoboCop001
Jun 13, 2012, 08:42 AM
Necessary to push the industry forward, I think.

One day, these kinds of laptops will be able to be repair-friendly. Until then, if you want a great machine in a small package you'll have to deal with it.

I think it's a fine tradeoff, even though it's not exactly desirable to possibly have to replace a large part of or the entire machine to replace one part.

Tronic
Jun 13, 2012, 08:44 AM
Anyone else think "Retina MacBook Pro" is going to start being too much of a mouthful?

How about "Retina Book"? We already call the iPod Touch the "iTouch".

MacBook Pro Pro or Pro Pro for short. Kidding aside, I remember seeing hi-res pro a lot here in the past months so maybe that will stick.

mono1980
Jun 13, 2012, 08:44 AM
The fact that it's completely solid state is very helpful though. You shouldn't have any problems unless it's simply a lemon. The two most common failures on older laptops are the hard disk and the DVD drive. Apple's batteries are a lot better than they used to be too.

maflynn
Jun 13, 2012, 08:44 AM
You may indeed be right, but I've never heard this before. Any link or attribution?

Here's one link, not sure of there are eventuating circumstances though
http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/report_apple_stops_third_party_macbook_air_ssd_upgrades/

Cordless_Drill
Jun 13, 2012, 08:44 AM
The only thing I hate about this is the battery. If the battery dies you can't replace it yourself.
I find that awful, too. The only problems I've ever had with my MacBooks/Powerbooks have been the batteries. They always die. ALWAYS. I've had to replace the battery in every machine I've used since 1999.

What happens when this MBP I'm using right now (Late 2011) loses all reasonable battery function? It's going to suck because I'm not really ifixit-compatible. Not that many people are -- in the grand scheme.

Heilage
Jun 13, 2012, 08:44 AM
What annoys me isn't so much the non user friendly thing, but the fact that they have built this thing as if nothing is to ever go wrong with it. A battery or trackpad replacement on this is gonna be a real bitch. Technicians are gonna hate it.

iSunrise
Jun 13, 2012, 08:45 AM
MacBook Pro Pro or Pro Pro for short. Kidding aside, I remember seeing hi-res pro a lot here in the past months so maybe that will stick.
Macbook Air Pro Retina

Celf
Jun 13, 2012, 08:45 AM
What can we expect when the battery dies? Very expensive battery change by Apple? replace Macbook?

Batteries still have a max loading cycles. On my current Macbook Pro I had to replace the battery just after two years of use.

ristlin
Jun 13, 2012, 08:47 AM
Doesn't cover wear and tear.

You can stretch Applecare. They often offer discounted replacement costs if they can't fix he wear and tear. Also, if the damage can somehow threaten anyone's safety, they will make exceptions. Applecare is the best warranty out there.

Examples:

-Water on laptop, fried the board. Took it to Apple, they said it would cost $700 to replace since it wasn't a manufacturing defect. However, they still couldn't fix it, so they sent back a brand new laptop. A newer laptop for $700.

-Flayed power cord. Apple said they couldn't replace it. Got manager on the phone, explained safety issues, they replaced it for free.

-Not to mention all the phones I've seen replaced over the years.

djrod
Jun 13, 2012, 08:47 AM
Is Ram interchangeable in the MBPR?

Sure!

http://hacknmod.com/wp-content/old/pics/5038-1.jpg

bobobenobi
Jun 13, 2012, 08:47 AM
I don't really care that the RAM is soldered in and that the SSD is a new proprietary piece. I came to terms with that kind of thing with my MBA. The battery though. I just can't bring myself to buy a computer with a non-replaceable battery. No way. I've spent the last couple days talking myself into selling my Air and buying this machine. Not now.

shurcooL
Jun 13, 2012, 08:47 AM
The only thing I hate about this is the battery. If the battery dies you can't replace it yourself.
And if a brick falls on you while you're not wearing a helmet, you'll die.

Some risks are worth taking and not thinking about.

If you don't want to, Apple still sells the thick non-Retina MBP. Enjoy.

Mundty
Jun 13, 2012, 08:47 AM
I'd have no problem with this if Apple was fair about their upgrade prices. But with their RAM and SSD upgrade prices being through the roof, in addition to the fact that they don't deduct the default components they are removing from the price of the upgraded components. I'd say it's a pretty ****** move by Apple towards it's mostly loyal customers.

beebler
Jun 13, 2012, 08:48 AM
If people want a LEGO computer, they'd buy a box. If people want slim, nice, eyc, they'd buy a Mac. This news really shouldn't affect Mac-buyers.

mvdb
Jun 13, 2012, 08:48 AM
I bought the Unibody 15" MacBook Pro the week it came out. I've used it for almost 4 solid years, on a daily basis. The battery is still working great, no need to replace it. The only upgrade I did, was the RAM (2 to 4 Gb) and the harddisk (250 Gb to 500 Gb hybrid), which was a very easy upgrade to do myself.

I already ordered the new retina MacBook Pro. I'm planning to use it for at least 3 years. I'm happy I ordered it with 16 Gb because then I probably won't ever need to upgrade the RAM. I'm a bit worried that a 512 Gb SSD won't be enough in the future. On the other hand it seems that Thunderbolt / USB3 will make it easy to use extremely fast external storage.

It seems that I will be losing the easy access to battery, RAM and HDD, but gaining a lot of expansion options using Thunderbolt & USB 3. I don't care about the battery, if used properly the battery should last. Sure, it's expensive, but I'm happy to see them putting the "Pro" back in MacBook Pro. Way ahead of the competition, just like in the PowerBook G4 days!

pgifford
Jun 13, 2012, 08:50 AM
A RAM upgrade to 16GB is $200 ($180 for students) - much less than it used to be, from what I remember. I think I paid a little less than that for an 8GB upgrade from a 3rd party supplier last year. Not a bad deal.

Zauberer
Jun 13, 2012, 08:50 AM
I'm no engineering, but isn't it incredible that the new MBP has such powerful components (esp. graphics card) in such a small form factor? The biggest innovation could be the cooling, not the screen.

Vantage Point
Jun 13, 2012, 08:51 AM
So a year from now if need a larger SSD and prices drop I would then have to sell this and buy a new one :eek: Not for me!!!

I'll stick with the 1/4" thicker model that is upgradeable and I can, at todays prices, upgrade myself to 16GB ram and a 500GB SSD for and save hundreds (and more if I upgrade 6-12 months from now instead). I'll handle the burden of the extra pound along with the built-in optical drive - and have the included 500gb drive as a external backup

Katanae
Jun 13, 2012, 08:51 AM
So not even apple will be offering a battery exchange?

Elijahg
Jun 13, 2012, 08:51 AM
[url=http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/13/teardown-of-retina-macbook-pro-finds-low-repairability-with-custom-components/]
Taking a number of cues from the MacBook Air, the new MacBook Air uses RAM soldered directly onto the logic board

Ahem.

Back in the 1990s Apple used to use proprietary components, internal connections and ports, which was one of the causes of Apple's march toward becoming an endangered species. Macs were expensive, and difficult to repair with expensive SCSI disks, weird Nubus and Comm Slot sockets (ATA and PCI later on, granted) and strange power supply connections.

When Steve came back, the propitiatory connections began to disappear, until you could use standard ATA disks, any standard CD drive, USB, etc. The earlier Intel Macs had the most numerous standard components, but it seems we're heading back the other way again in the strive to shave 0.0001" off each corner. Is it really worth having a computer that's a few percent thinner, that'll cost you hundreds to repair when the SSD wears out? Or if the RAM fails the whole logic board needs replacing? Don't tell me a proprietary SSD slot is necessary, the standard one worked just fine in the Air. Why is the battery glued into the base of the MBP? Surely double sided tape works just as well as it has done in the iPhone and iPad for the last few years. Is a hard disk with custom firmware in the iMac really required? Why do the fans go 747 when you put your own hard disk in?

I don't like the direction Apple is heading with the lack of standard components. History's shown the more proprietary they become, the more of an outsider they become, too.

toshmac
Jun 13, 2012, 08:52 AM
I know I am shocked. Just shocked. I will definitely leave Apple now to find something much bigger and heavier that I can take apart with my walmart screw drivers.

Or I could just enjoy using a lighter machine with a beautiful display.

love this

Synchromesh
Jun 13, 2012, 08:52 AM
Solid State Device/Drive == flash. Apple just doesn't use the typical drive enclosure box; they save space this way.

It's not so much space saving as it is consumer screwing. There are plenty of more standard interfaces like pcie or msata that could easily fit into similar space. But they want to make sure nobody but them takes your money. Greedy Apple tactics are nothing new.

As for RAM, this is pure bs. There are plenty of smaller thinner machines out there that have user-upgradable RAM. Many Air imitators for example. They want you to pay a major premium upfront for their memory and then throw away the machine once the RAM amount in it becomes insufficient for newer software. Just Apple being its greedy self again.

I like the fact that I can replace certain things with parts of my own choosing so I won't be buying this machine for sure. That and the fact that I refuse to pay over $2K for a laptop.

smiddlehurst
Jun 13, 2012, 08:53 AM
I find that awful, too. The only problems I've ever had with my MacBooks/Powerbooks have been the batteries. They always die. ALWAYS. I've had to replace the battery in every machine I've used since 1999.

What happens when this MBP I'm using right now (Late 2011) loses all reasonable battery function? It's going to suck because I'm not really ifixit-compatible. Not that many people are -- in the grand scheme.

Then you presumably do exactly what you currently do with the Macbook Air or Macbook Pro: you buy a new battery from Apple and the price includes installation!

http://www.apple.com/support/macbookair/service/battery/

Come on folks, this isn't a new problem or solution. In fact when you compare prices Apple charge (in the UK) £101 for an old-style replacement Macbook Pro battery and only £99 for the newer, Apple-installed replacement battery.

Frobozz
Jun 13, 2012, 08:54 AM
Is it just me, or is it astounding that an entire computer is packed into essentially that single misshapen motherboard? How technology has progressed.

Even more interesting, but not shocking, is that this is basically a screen with a battery.

avanpelt
Jun 13, 2012, 08:55 AM
Is Ram interchangeable in the MBPR?

Nope. Not according to this article and many others. The RAM is now soldered onto the logic board.

Hopefully soldering the RAM to the logic board is one of those "first-gen problems" that will be resolved in future versions. I can't understand how Apple can market this machine to hard core pros like it's something along the lines of a portable Mac Pro, but keep people from being able to do even the most basic of upgrades on it.

Sure, 16 GB sounds like a lot now, but for pros on the bleeding edge, they're likely to require 32 GB within the next two years -- before the extended AppleCare on this thing expires.

It's a shame that with this product, Apple seems to be pigeon holing the primary target buyer of this machine into buying a whole new laptop and paying another hefty premium anytime they need more speed/power (which they inevitably will.) Sounds like the iPad/iPhone business model to me and that's disappointing with a $2,100+ laptop.

PeopleTheseDays
Jun 13, 2012, 08:55 AM
Proof that they changed the SSD connector? Here:

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/12/teardown-of-mid-2012-macbook-air-reveals-tweaked-ssd-connector/

But proof that they did it to screw people over? That, it's not. The new connection works at a faster speed. Who are we to say that a faster connection didn't require a physical redesign?

SATA II to SATA III? The 2010 and 2011 Airs have the same connector even though one is only 3Gbps and the other is 6Gbps. I'm hoping there is another reason other than speed for the change.

nylonsteel
Jun 13, 2012, 08:56 AM
re original article

moore's law of laptops

go aapl

pgwalsh
Jun 13, 2012, 08:56 AM
It's good to know the SSD is not compatible with 3rd party devices. It's worthy to note that I did not see an upgrade option for the slower Retina display Mac Book Pro, so if you want larger than 256GB internal harddrive you'll need to go to the top end model. I don't know why Apple has left off the upgrade option for the lower end model.

Thunderhawks
Jun 13, 2012, 08:57 AM
If people want a LEGO computer, they'd buy a box. If people want slim, nice, eyc, they'd buy a Mac. This news really shouldn't affect Mac-buyers.

Complaining about not being able to get into this MBP is silly.

Just don't buy it. It's not the machine for you!
Stick with the other MBP's which in time will have retina too.

When my kids used to whine about stuff I would always say:

Okay, if you whine everything is off or you won't get this!

Wish that worked here:-)

akhbhaat
Jun 13, 2012, 08:57 AM
Apple has even taken to gluing the large battery into the body of the Retina MacBook Pro, with iFixit ultimately giving up on trying to remove it for fear of puncturing a battery cell. The glued-in battery pack also covers the trackpad cable, making it nearly inaccessible and susceptible to damage if users attempt to remove the battery.
This is simply inexcusable. Batteries are arguably the most likely point of failure in mobile devices.

MrNomNoms
Jun 13, 2012, 08:59 AM
You can either have something small, or something proprietary. Not both.

Apple chose that to build custom parts so that they used as little space as possible, and were the shape and size to fit inside their laptops. Using proprietary parts, you have to use the size and shape that the third party manufacturers make. You're stuck with someone else telling you how small you can make a laptop. Apple now controls their own designs.

I'd rather have a design which is smaller, lighter, has more battery power that I USE EVERY DAY, instead of make it heavier, bigger and have less batteries for the one day out of 5 years that makes repairing it easier.

I think you need to fix up the above sentence I made bold since it is a contradiction in terms - are yo acclaiming that you can have something small and open standards then? conversely are you saying that proprietary equals smaller or bigger?

Let me do the work for you that you should have done originally:

You can either have something small and proprietary or something that is larger but industry standard but not both.

Please proof-read next time before correcting someone.

LeoCastillo
Jun 13, 2012, 08:59 AM
It's not so much space saving as it is consumer screwing. There are plenty of more standard interfaces like pcie or msata that could easily fit into similar space. But they want to make sure nobody but them takes your money. Greedy Apple tactics are nothing new.

As for RAM, this is pure bs. There are plenty of smaller thinner machines out there that have user-upgradable RAM. Many Air imitators for example. They want you to pay a major premium upfront for their memory and then throw away the machine once the RAM amount in it becomes insufficient for newer software. Just Apple being its greedy self again.

I like the fact that I can replace certain things with parts of my own choosing so I won't be buying this machine for sure. That and the fact that I refuse to pay over $2K for a laptop.

Then in that case the non-Retina Macbook Pro is perfect for you. Buy that instead.

P.S. I checked your other posts. It seems you are very proud of the Desktop PC you built on your own and love your ThinkPad. Based on that, it seems you just wanted to add your two cents in here without being a Mac user yourself. Just making an observation...

ArtOfWarfare
Jun 13, 2012, 09:00 AM
The SSD is upgradable... OWC offers their own SSD modules, and they are working on new ones for the Retina MBPs.

That's good... what about the RAM, though?

Regarding the battery:
How long is it designed to last? For nice round numbers, lets just say I go through 250 charge cycles a year. For how many years will I get 6 hours out of my laptop per charge cycle?

Lets say 3-5 years down the road, I need to replace the battery. How will I be able to do that? Will Apple do it for me? Will AppleCare cover it, or will that be too far out? How much will it probably cost?

notjustjay
Jun 13, 2012, 09:00 AM
And if a brick falls on you while you're not wearing a helmet, you'll die.

Some risks are worth taking and not thinking about.

If you don't want to, Apple still sells the thick non-Retina MBP. Enjoy.

That's a silly example. What if you lived in a world where one day, for sure, inevitably, a brick would fall on your head? Would you consider wearing a helmet then?

Batteries die. It's what they do. One day the battery will be worn out and need replacing. That's a guaranteed fact.

I'm glad to hear that Apple's replacement battery includes the replacement itself, but I wonder how they plan to do it if the batteries are glued on so tightly that even iFixit is afraid to touch it.

Frobozz
Jun 13, 2012, 09:00 AM
I already ordered the new retina MacBook Pro. I'm planning to use it for at least 3 years. I'm happy I ordered it with 16 Gb because then I probably won't ever need to upgrade the RAM. I'm a bit worried that a 512 Gb SSD won't be enough in the future. On the other hand it seems that Thunderbolt / USB3 will make it easy to use extremely fast external storage.

I recently did a similar upgrade from an older MacBook Pro (first gen MBPro, actually) to an early 2011 unibody MBPro. I put a 256 GB SSD in it, which is easily the best decision I ever made. I also max'ed out the RAM at 8GB.

The only problem I ran into is space. I have an 18MP DSLR with 1080p video capabilities. Suffice to say I store the videos on an external drive– but that would be the case even if I had a 1TB internal HD. As for pictures, I keep about 50 GB of pics on the internal at any given time, and offload the older ones to the external.

I think you'll be in great shape with a 512Gb SSD. I'm not sure the 768GB SSD is worth the upgrade price, given the underlying issues. If you need to store a lot of pics or big files internally, 512GB will be plenty, 256GB means you have to be choosy, and 128GB would have been way too small– apple was right to not include it.

The operating system and a decent suite of programs is going to eat about 100GB.

Good luck with the new Mac. My father is going to get one, but with the 256GB since he doesn't need to store large photos or video. It looks amazing!

ghostface147
Jun 13, 2012, 09:02 AM
I think you need to fix up the above sentence I made bold since it is a contradiction in terms - are yo acclaiming that you can have something small and open standards then? conversely are you saying that proprietary equals smaller or bigger?

Let me do the work for you that you should have done originally:



Please proof read next time before correcting someone.

Proofread is one word, not two. So the same thing applies to you.

SamG2020
Jun 13, 2012, 09:02 AM
Honestly, the only reason I can't justify upgrading my MBP to this is because earlier this year I invested in a 512GB Samsung 830 SSD.

I'm finding some hope however, that judging from the teardown, there's not quite enough space for an SSD where the flash memory is located. However on a slightly larger model you'd have that extra breathing room required to fit in a standard SSD. Perhaps the 17" model can make a return with a replaceable SSD when Apple inevitably decides to cease production of the non-retina models?

vpro
Jun 13, 2012, 09:03 AM
I guess non of us here represent any fraction of the market for apple products,or is this it right here at mac rumors? (Giggles)

It is always so curious that there is so much innovation and technological advancements, revolutionary and forward developments in this field - yet the consumer continues to accept paying more for no means to upgrade, where upgrade means buy their 'latest and greatest', or pay the insurance premium which covers the life span of that particular model's trend setting date. When both expires a 'newer and better' machine pops out of no where totally making the last one obsolete, does this sound familiar to anyone? (Wink & Nudge)

There is so much 'awesome technology' in this product right now, just right now though, because we all know the successor is already in the making. Some of us make the most out of the technology today and some of us are able to continue to use this machine well into the distant future. So I dread and fear that many more or too many of us are too easily giving our consumer power over to Planned Obsolescence.

Or I guess in this 'case' something less sinister(?) Just that it is the epitome of the typical fashion trend factor: 'look what we made and what will ultimately make you look better and produce better images with'... ... 'But uh uh uh - you can't upgrade it, uh uh uh - you have to pay the premium insurance in case it fails because only WE CAN do ANYTHING about IT mwahahahaaa haaa haar!'

The whole notion of PC (personal computer) became wiped out. I guess that is why those 'other' computers are more customizable after you paid for it but 'these' computers are very much geared to the 'luxurious few'.


I am still waiting for my $4000 new retina 15" mbp to arrive any minute now. I saved up way too long for the premium 17" mbp and it was taken from me to early (sob), I will survive - as this decision will have to do (pout).


Exciting times of greater awareness and power to the people! (Hopes)


Thanks. ^_^

840quadra
Jun 13, 2012, 09:03 AM
I would imagine that the majority of the general public does the following.


Buy a computer that fits the needs now
Replaces computer when it feels slow / doesn't fit the needs anymore


My clients, co-workers, family, and most friends run this way. Even though this forum is huge (with regards to active members), compared to the overall population of users that buy Apple computers (and other consumer electronics), this is still only a tiny sample.

While many of us worry about upgrading our laptops, I would venture a guess, that most consumers simply don't care, they will likely replace it when the next best thing comes out.

I don't agree with it personally, but I can totally see why Apple feels justified with such a hardware lockdown.

palmerc
Jun 13, 2012, 09:05 AM
Doesn't cover wear and tear.

I've been a loyal purchaser of AppleCare for years. When you take a mac into the Apple store in the US with AppleCare they will replace nearly anything.

Here in Norway electronics purchased here have a three year guarantee by law, but unfortunately the companies take 2-3 weeks to repair stuff. I would gladly pay for the overnight service AppleCare in the US provides.

dollystereo
Jun 13, 2012, 09:07 AM
Cmon, its a nice machine, with 8GB standard. 200 more and you get 16GB that is totally futuro proof!.
About the drive, who cares, you have USB3 and Thunderbolt, both are as fast as an internal HD or even an internal SSD.
So yes, it's a pro machine, cheap for apple standards and pretty damn sleek!

D.T.
Jun 13, 2012, 09:07 AM
Non removable ram and ssd sucks ass, absurd prices for memory/ssd upgrade in the online applestore

I would have at least liked the ram and 'ssd' to be upgradable.

So a year from now if need a larger SSD and prices drop I would then have to sell this and buy a new one :eek: Not for me!!!


The “SSD”/NAND chips are not soldered in (you can see the modular edge connection in several photos), so it will just take a 3rd party company to reverse engineer the interface. OWC provides upgrades to the previous MBA SSD.


A RAM upgrade to 16GB is $200 ($180 for students) - much less than it used to be, from what I remember. I think I paid a little less than that for an 8GB upgrade from a 3rd party supplier last year. Not a bad deal.

Yeah, the RAM upgrade is not totally insane, and since that component +is+ soldered in, I’d definitely go 16GB OOTB (but I’m a heavy VM user combined with a number of dev tools and services).


It's worthy to note that I did not see an upgrade option for the slower Retina display Mac Book Pro, so if you want larger than 256GB internal harddrive you'll need to go to the top end model. I don't know why Apple has left off the upgrade option for the lower end model.

I think we’ll see some additional BTO options for storage in the future, i.e., base CPU with 512GB SSD (high end machine with 1TB SSD!)

charlituna
Jun 13, 2012, 09:07 AM
For laptops - applecare was always justifiable.

What would make it even more justifiable is if they did some kind of Apple Care + for laptops. Liquid damage on a laptop can be a $500-1000 fix depending on how much there is. Being able to get a flat rate repair at say $500 can be a life saver for many.

blackcrayon
Jun 13, 2012, 09:09 AM
As for RAM, this is pure bs. There are plenty of smaller thinner machines out there that have user-upgradable RAM. Many Air imitators for example. They want you to pay a major premium upfront for their memory and then throw away the machine once the RAM amount in it becomes insufficient for newer software. Just Apple being its greedy self again.
.

I wonder why they put two thunderbolt ports on it, allowing unprecedented expansion to a laptop computer. Them being greedy consumer-screwers & all :rolleyes:

charlituna
Jun 13, 2012, 09:09 AM
So if you have any battery problems they essentially have to replace the entire machine?

No, the machine comes apart. And the batteries are likely separate from the board.

iFixit is whining that the logic board, RAM and GPU are all soldered onto one base plate so they can't teach you out to rip that stuff up and fix/upgrade it yourself. That's their bread and butter after all.

Personally I know few pros of the type that would buy this machine that have any desire to do any of that kind of work themselves. Hell most of them don't even make the drive over to Apple themselves. that's what assistants are for.

CrAkD
Jun 13, 2012, 09:09 AM
All expected but now that repair ability is nonexistent people would serve themselves well flipping these things every few years because once apple care expires if anything happens you'll have a 3-4k paperweight

charlituna
Jun 13, 2012, 09:10 AM
I would have at least liked the ram and 'ssd' to be upgradable. Those are the only things I upgrade anyway. As the previous poster noted, it sure makes Applecare more justifiable.

apple Care wouldn't upgrade those for you either. You have to buy it with the top specs if you want the top specs.

varera
Jun 13, 2012, 09:10 AM
do not screw with that laptop...

avanpelt
Jun 13, 2012, 09:11 AM
I would imagine that the majority of the general public does the following.


Buy a computer that fits the needs now
Replaces computer when it feels slow / doesn't fit the needs anymore


My clients, co-workers, family, and most friends run this way. Even though this forum is huge (with regards to active members), compared to the overall population of users that buy Apple computers (and other consumer electronics), this is still only a tiny sample.

While many of us worry about upgrading our laptops, I would venture a guess, that most consumers simply don't care, they will likely replace it when the next best thing comes out.

I don't agree with it personally, but I can totally see why Apple feels justified with such a hardware lockdown.

For a $500 laptop, sure. For a $2,100 laptop? I'm not sure that's as readily abandoned and replaced. Keep in mind that for $2,100, you get 8 GB of RAM. That would be considered the absolute minimum for any professional machine these days; and if you buy that machine, you're stuck with that amount of RAM.

Maybe Apple really is aiming this laptop at the company that can buy these every year and have it be only a very small blip on their books.

torana355
Jun 13, 2012, 09:12 AM
Its a ultra thin high power laptop people, if you want a computer you can customize and repair then you should be looking at a tower, if you need a laptop just order it with 16gigs of ram and the largest ssd to future proof it. Im more pissed that Apple have not updated the Mac Pro.

Celf
Jun 13, 2012, 09:12 AM
Cmon, its a nice machine, with 8GB standard. 200 more and you get 16GB that is totally futuro proof!.


Please define "future proof"

I've bought computers were it was an option to upgrade the harddisk to a whopping and future proof 40 Mb!!!! ;)

charlituna
Jun 13, 2012, 09:12 AM
I doubt seriously it was designed JUST to thwart current third party upgrades, although no doubt that is considered a side benefit to Apple.

That is most likely correct. They did what they thought was best. That it screws with folks being able to tinker and possibly screw something up by breaking a connector or using a bad part is just icing.

rdlink
Jun 13, 2012, 09:12 AM
It's a give and take. If you want newer, slimmer, lighter form factors, the manufacturer needs to break away from the designs we've been seeing the last 10 years. I'm all for it, I quit fiddling with the physical aspects of computers a long time ago.

This.

While I understand that there are still some geeks out there who want to tinker, the vast majority of people just want good, easy, solid computers that run and help them do what they need/want to do. Think of it like an appliance in your life. Do you bitch because you can't easily replace the compressor or coils in your fridge? Do you want to replace the compressor or coils in your fridge?

fleshman03
Jun 13, 2012, 09:13 AM
I don't really care that the RAM is soldered in and that the SSD is a new proprietary piece. I came to terms with that kind of thing with my MBA. The battery though. I just can't bring myself to buy a computer with a non-replaceable battery. No way. I've spent the last couple days talking myself into selling my Air and buying this machine. Not now.

Buying a $1k non-user serviceable appliance (MBA) is a wee bit different from plucking down $2.5k on a beast (MBPR). This is a pro machine and expected to be used by pros; not the general consumer. I guess it's too much for Apple to allow Pros to user-service Pro machines... :rolleyes:

My early 2008 silver MacBook Pro just got a life extension. Looks like I'll be upgrading the HHD to 1or2 TB, putting in 6GB of RAM and buying a new battery. 4 years is a great run for a laptop, I'm expecting mine to go another 2 with those user-serviceable upgrades. Can't do that with the MacBook Pro Retina.

pandamonia
Jun 13, 2012, 09:14 AM
What can we expect when the battery dies? Very expensive battery change by Apple? replace Macbook?

Batteries still have a max loading cycles. On my current Macbook Pro I had to replace the battery just after two years of use.

After 2 years of use i have 379 charge cycles and have only lost 50mAh of total capacity.

I really don't see the problem.

torana355
Jun 13, 2012, 09:14 AM
Keep in mind that for $2,100, you get 8 GB of RAM. That would be considered the absolute minimum for any professional machine these days;

Not true, we are running just 6 gigs of ram in our Mac pros for our prepress dept in a large printing company. More then enough. If people actually ran istat and saw how much ram they are actually using many would realize there is no need for more then 8 gigs of ram unless running multiple VM's or heavy video editing.

840quadra
Jun 13, 2012, 09:15 AM
For a $500 laptop, sure. For a $2,100 laptop? I'm not sure that's as readily abandoned and replaced. Keep in mind that for $2,100, you get 8 GB of RAM. That would be considered the absolute minimum for any professional machine these days; and if you buy that machine, you're stuck with that amount of RAM.

Maybe Apple really is aiming this laptop at the company that can buy these every year and have it be only a very small blip on their books.

My response was in regards to people I know who do own a 15' MPB, many of which paid over $2,000 for them new.

I can't speak with regards to others outside of people I know, but that core group simply replaces their entire systems. I have tried to get them to hold onto them longer by suggesting an SSD replacement, or more memory, but they usually just replace :( .

vpro
Jun 13, 2012, 09:16 AM
I really - absolutely - totally respect Apple's approach to such custom attention to detail and components it is so humbling! As a musician I appreciate the custom made instruments to my specs so I really always give kudo where deserved like in the case of this new mbp. WOW! It is set for life - at least for my needs. I am able to make a computer last a LONG LONG time, I am still able to produce very quality full length albums on my HP from 1998, it still works like the gem it was when it first made the headlines (laughing).

Yeah with USB3 and all the Thunderbolt this and that, you have so much expandability for sure, it doesn't always have to be from the inside all the time, the external peripherals do everything to catch up / compliment and are doing a fine job!!

I am happy with my decision to spend $4000 on this new mbp, very HAPPY. It is the best investment for my music career. Just like my 17" 08 mbp STILL is to this date! In my entire life I only had 3 computers now with the addition of the new mbp to the family. We are a happy unit thank you very much!


Best,

Vi An.

Celf
Jun 13, 2012, 09:18 AM
After 2 years of use i have 379 charge cycles and have only lost 50mAh of total capacity.

I really don't see the problem.

Mine had little over 400 cycles and lost half of the capacity. 45 minutes max between charges. battery was tested in a store and they said they couldn't do anything about it. 170 USD for a new, user replacable, battery.

foodog
Jun 13, 2012, 09:19 AM
It's a give and take. If you want newer, slimmer, lighter form factors, the manufacturer needs to break away from the designs we've been seeing the last 10 years. I'm all for it, I quit fiddling with the physical aspects of computers a long time ago.

Me too. Once I figured out it cost me less per hour to pay someone to build stuff, fix stuff, do car maintenance, etc... than my hourly rate. I moved all these items to pay someone to do it category.

dollystereo
Jun 13, 2012, 09:19 AM
16Gb of ram is enough for almost any task you are going to do with a portable mac. I do performance computing (optimization in real life really large problems) and with this machine I can test and run my codes with no problem (I can with my actual MBP).
this update should have come with the awaited Mac Pro at the same time, so really video hungry users could get best of both worlds.
I think that 16GB should be included for the 2199 fee, but remember last model came with 4Gb for that price! with no retina or ivy bridge, so is classic apple way.
Hard Drives shouldn't be a problem since Thinderbolt and USB3 are super fast I/O.
I think is a nice machine for the price, the best that apple has ever made, and if it doenst suit your needs just get the regular MBP.
Now, get us a comparable Mac Pro, that;s what we really need, am tired of installing Sata cards in mine. =(

JHankwitz
Jun 13, 2012, 09:20 AM
So if you have any battery problems they essentially have to replace the entire machine?

That's why you should always buy AppleCare.

fleshman03
Jun 13, 2012, 09:21 AM
Ahem.

Back in the 1990s Apple used to use proprietary components, internal connections and ports, which was one of the causes of Apple's march toward becoming an endangered species. Macs were expensive, and difficult to repair with expensive SCSI disks, weird Nubus and Comm Slot sockets (ATA and PCI later on, granted) and strange power supply connections.

When Steve came back, the propitiatory connections began to disappear, until you could use standard ATA disks, any standard CD drive, USB, etc. The earlier Intel Macs had the most numerous standard components, but it seems we're heading back the other way again in the strive to shave 0.0001" off each corner. Is it really worth having a computer that's a few percent thinner, that'll cost you hundreds to repair when the SSD wears out? Or if the RAM fails the whole logic board needs replacing? Don't tell me a proprietary SSD slot is necessary, the standard one worked just fine in the Air. Why is the battery glued into the base of the MBP? Surely double sided tape works just as well as it has done in the iPhone and iPad for the last few years. Is a hard disk with custom firmware in the iMac really required? Why do the fans go 747 when you put your own hard disk in?

I don't like the direction Apple is heading with the lack of standard components. History's shown the more proprietary they become, the more of an outsider they become, too.

This. I have been reading Walter Isaacson book and it is shocking to me how much Steve moved away from some of the crap Amelio and Sculley did. It's almost as if they never learned those lessons. (Or maybe Steve was the only one who did?)

foodog
Jun 13, 2012, 09:22 AM
Not true, we are running just 6 gigs of ram in our Mac pros for our prepress dept in a large printing company. More then enough. If people actually ran istat and saw how much ram they are actually using many would realize there is no need for more then 8 gigs of ram unless running multiple VM's or heavy video editing.

emphasis on the word heavy.....

smithrh
Jun 13, 2012, 09:22 AM
If only Apple had some previous experience with making intricate electronics... then I'd feel better.

If only Apple had some knowledge of how non-user serviceable batteries fare... then I'd feel better.

If only Apple had a better track record with laptops... then I'd feel better.

If only Apple sold metric craptons of non-user expandable gear... then I'd feel better.

If only Apple would have thought through all of the implications of this design... then I'd feel better.

But seriously - much of this talk sounds VERY similar to the talk going around when the iPod first came out.

Yes, I'm a bit disappointed in soldered RAM - but that's pretty much it.

rdlink
Jun 13, 2012, 09:23 AM
Please define "future proof"

I've bought computers were it was an option to upgrade the harddisk to a whopping and future proof 40 Mb!!!! ;)

Here's your definition: Put Parallels on a MBP with 16GB of RAM. You can dedicated 2 cores and 4GB of memory to Windows, and still have 2 cores and 12GB of RAM for OSX. Or, you can give a core and 4GB of RAM to both Windows and Linux, and still have 2 cores and 8GB of RAM for OSX.

All of this is in a laptop that's .71 of an inch thick, and weighs less than 4.5 lbs.

MOST users will physically wear out a machine like that long before it becomes obsolete for them.

In the day of the 40MB HD, the curve of advancement was extremely steep. It's much flatter today, and 95% of users never even make their computer breathe hard.

JHankwitz
Jun 13, 2012, 09:23 AM
Can't upgrade the RAM yourself now.

Why would you need to upgrade RAM? Get the RAM you need when you make the purchase. It's well worth the added cost.

zoetmb
Jun 13, 2012, 09:24 AM
Being members to a tech blog like we all are, I think we forget there are a lot of people who have no desire to open up their machine to tinker with it, and will be more than satisfied with what comes in the box.

That's true, but in the past, Apple made battery changes extraordinarily easy and memory/HDD upgrades relatively easy for anyone with even a modicum of technical comfort.

IMO, we're giving up too much in the interests of thinness. I'd rather have a slightly thicker and heavier machine if it gave me access to all these things. I have a 3-4 year old MBP 15" and I recently had to replace the battery, which in that machine was easier than replacing a light bulb. I also decided to replace the HDD and I was able to get a really nice 768MB HDD which also had a SSD cache for about $200. The only thing that made that even slightly complicated was the need to first put the new drive in an enclosure so I could backup onto it and then install it and move the old drive to the case. But it all went flawlessly.

All that would be impossible on the new machine. I have to say, that does disturb me, especially, in essence, forcing us to buy Apple Care. The more I pay for a machine, the longer I want it to last. This lack of upgradability means these machines will have lesser useful lives.

Alchemis
Jun 13, 2012, 09:25 AM
This is simply inexcusable. Batteries are arguably the most likely point of failure in mobile devices.

Gluing it in isn't the end of the world. As You can find on Apple's own website here: http://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro/service/battery/

The batteries for the Retina are replaceable, but damn are they expensive. $229 if an Aussie had to do one. Yikes!!

I'm considering the base model Retina MBP but only because I get the $220 education discount in Australia as a staff member of a school. I don't need much storage any more, most of my stuff sits on my desktop and if I want it I put in on a portable hard drive. Also hinges on me selling the current MBP at the right price.

Celf
Jun 13, 2012, 09:25 AM
That's why you should always buy AppleCare.

In the Netherlands Apple care for the Retina MBP's is 400 USD!! This is getting really silly.

fat jez
Jun 13, 2012, 09:26 AM
I wonder why they put two thunderbolt ports on it, allowing unprecedented expansion to a laptop computer. Them being greedy consumer-screwers & all :rolleyes:

Probably because in the corporate environment one of those will be taken up with a thunderbolt to ethernet adaptor, leaving only one connection for monitors, etc. Many companies do not yet trust wifi for their corporate networks.

vpro
Jun 13, 2012, 09:26 AM
Battery = energy and abuse of the consumer! Can look at it both ways.

I have never owned one of these before - so what really does happen when this built in - glued in batter fails? They just replace it if you have the premium insurance 'apple care' and if you don't, what do you pay? (With your life savings?) Hope not!

Everything is great with all this technological advancements and revolutionary new ideas and all in these products but at the end of the day, when that battery fails and when there is an even more major WORLD WIDE energy crisis/shortage, all of it is just 'dust and metal fragments in the void'... It is romantic still and I LOVE IT all!


Ahhhh LIFE, refreshing like this morning's crisp bite to the air -- mountains, mmmmmmm and freezing cold lakes. What more is there really to life than nature. So be it.

Quu
Jun 13, 2012, 09:26 AM
I'm okay with this but when I get mine I'll definitely need to get that 16GB RAM BTO. Even though I don't need it today I don't know what I'll need in three years from now (which is roughly how long I keep a notebook).

I'll probably get the low end one with 16GB RAM and 256GB SSD then I can upgrade the SSD myself later when companies come out with compatible ones.

foodog
Jun 13, 2012, 09:28 AM
This. I have been reading Walter Isaacson book and it is shocking to me how much Steve moved away from some of the crap Amelio and Sculley did. It's almost as if they never learned those lessons. (Or maybe Steve was the only one who did?)

Nonsense. Steve Jobs brought about more self-unrepairable, user-unreplaceable items than not. As time went on Apple has shrunk devices at the expence of easily replacing batteries (think iPod, iPhone, iPad), hard drives (think iMac especially the 2009 one), RAM and hard drive (think Mac mini dual putty knife)

jclardy
Jun 13, 2012, 09:29 AM
So I wonder how Apple repairs it if you have battery issues in your Applecare period if it is glued down.

Maybe they have a built a specific MBP battery removal tool :D

winston1236
Jun 13, 2012, 09:30 AM
wow you can't even upgrade the ram?? thats a deal breaker for me

foodog
Jun 13, 2012, 09:31 AM
In the Netherlands Apple care for the Retina MBP's is 400 USD!! This is getting really silly.

400 is a pretty good insurance policy for a several thousand dollar piece of electronics, that is all Applecare is.

lord patton
Jun 13, 2012, 09:31 AM
That's a silly example. What if you lived in a world where one day, for sure, inevitably, a brick would fall on your head? Would you consider wearing a helmet then?

Batteries die. It's what they do. One day the battery will be worn out and need replacing. That's a guaranteed fact.

Well, if we're sticking with a silly analogy, I think it'd be better to say:

What if you lived in a town where you were guaranteed a brick would someday fall on your head, but there was only a .1% chance that this would occur during the first 3-4 years of your living there, after which time you'd most likely have moved to another town.

If those were the odds, no helmet. :)


I'm glad to hear that Apple's replacement battery includes the replacement itself, but I wonder how they plan to do it if the batteries are glued on so tightly that even iFixit is afraid to touch it.

That's Apple's problem. Maybe they know something iFixit doesn't, like the perfect chemical solution for removing the adhesive.

paradox00
Jun 13, 2012, 09:31 AM
Deleted, battery replacement costs already listed in this thread.

SSDGUY
Jun 13, 2012, 09:32 AM
$200 for an additional 8gb of advanced propriety RAM? I wouldn't think twice. Haven't bitched about Mac prices since buying a Quadra 700 beige box in 1993 for $3,500. Soon after I upgraded the RAM from 4megabytes to 20megabytes for $500. (The term "gigabyte" was crazy talk back then.) This was necessary so that I could rotate a greyscale image in Aldus Freehand without needing to go out for coffee. At the same time I bought a 17" NEC CRT for $1,500. Years later it was replaced with a 23" ACD for $1,500, and years later, a barely used 30" ACD for $1,200, which I'm happily viewing now. Every year we get more for less, folks. (And long-gone are the all-nighters of infinite restarts with Conflict Catcher!) Enjoy your Macs and enjoy your work! :)

foodog
Jun 13, 2012, 09:32 AM
Why would you need to upgrade RAM? Get the RAM you need when you make the purchase. It's well worth the added cost.

In the past Apple RAM has been out of sight expensive.... Not sure if its the same here.

PeterQVenkman
Jun 13, 2012, 09:34 AM
I haven't bitched about Mac prices since buying a Quadra 700 beige box in 1993 for $3K. Soon after I upgraded the ram from 4megabytes to 20megabytes for $500. (The term "gigabyte" was crazy talk back then.) This was necessary so that I could rotate a greyscale image in Aldus Freehand without needing to go out for coffee. Also bought a 17" NEC CRT for $1500. Years later it was replaced with a 23" ACD for $1500, and years later, a barely used 30" ACD for $1200, which I'm looking at now. Every year we get more for less, folks. (And long gone are the days of repeated restarts with Conflict Catcher!) Enjoy your Macs and enjoy your work! ;)

Oh man, conflict catcher. Those were the days - booting up with custom extensions one by one... ouch.

Bendrix
Jun 13, 2012, 09:35 AM
This.

While I understand that there are still some geeks out there who want to tinker, the vast majority of people just want good, easy, solid computers that run and help them do what they need/want to do. Think of it like an appliance in your life. Do you bitch because you can't easily replace the compressor or coils in your fridge? Do you want to replace the compressor or coils in your fridge?

Refrigeration is a relatively static technology. It changes pretty slowly. Also, refrigerators are stable machines. Computers are pretty fragile and require maintenance and updating.

runonthespot
Jun 13, 2012, 09:35 AM
Proprietary seems an inevitable step and it's obviously been a lesson learnt from iPad, where if you think about it, almost everything is proprietary.

My only concern with this new laptop is that SSD drives fail. Some say a lot (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2011/05/the-hot-crazy-solid-state-drive-scale.html). I guess this makes Apple Care a requirement. My question is, though, without Apple care, if after 1 year and 1 day, your hard disk fails, what would happen? Presumably you'd still need Apple to fix it. While it's somewhat reasonable to say, require someone to pay up to fix something that breaks, it's clearly not reasonable to have to throw the whole laptop away for this or some other minor, otherwise repairable failure. Now I'm fairly sure that failure to provide a means to fix it would open up Apple to class-actions etc, and certainly the extremely friendly replacement policy for non-Applecare ipad holders, out of warranty that I've experienced will mitigate it.

I think as long as Apple continue to realise that their quest for perfection in size and features means they need to continue to be graceful when people experience issues, I think everything will be ok.

Sigh. It is a bad day to already own a (relatively) new Macbook Pro 15 :)

bhtooefr
Jun 13, 2012, 09:38 AM
Really, this is annoying, but I think most people saw it coming after the keynote. Well, everything but the glued in battery, anyway.

The thing that sucks about the "buy the non-retina MBP" or "buy a Windows machine" argument is, well, you can't get the retina screen without, and the only reason you can't is because all of the 220 ppi 15.4" screens are being made for Apple, for MBPRs. Which pushes you all the way back to 2007 if you want anything that's even in the same league on display density and pixel area - a 7 year old IDTech LCD in a 6 year old ThinkPad chassis with a 5 year old motherboard. And to do the build with new or refurbished components costs more than some of the lower-end Airs, and requires filing metal away from the chassis to get the board to fit.

I'm guessing that Apple has a fixture that can slide under the battery to break the glue without damaging any components.

ixodes
Jun 13, 2012, 09:40 AM
For laptops - applecare was always justifiable.

Most certainly.

I've purchased AppleCare for every new PowerBook or MBP / MBA I own.

I'm not one to buy extended warranties, but this is the one exception that makes complete sense.

I wouldn't touch any other warranty option except AppleCare. They have a vested interest, are properly trained, and only use proper OEM Apple parts. Well worth the money, this is no place to skimp.

The few times I've used it, the service & repair times have been exemplary.

I highly endorse AppleCare.

poldidak
Jun 13, 2012, 09:41 AM
Anyone else think "Retina MacBook Pro" is going to start being too much of a mouthful?

How about "Retina Book"? We already call the iPod Touch the "iTouch".

I'm just happy that thanks to Apple products everyone will now be able to pronounce the word "retina" when they read it! Not /re-TEE-na/ or /RET-n-AY/ (which is what I used for acne when I was a kid).

Now, if only Regina, Saskatchewan would fix the pronunciation of their fair city, all our problems would be solved. Or perhaps people there will just say "i want my MacBook Re-TY-na"!!;)

vpro
Jun 13, 2012, 09:42 AM
Proprietary seems an inevitable step and it's obviously been a lesson learnt from iPad, where if you think about it, almost everything is proprietary.

My only concern with this new laptop is that SSD drives fail. Some say a lot (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2011/05/the-hot-crazy-solid-state-drive-scale.html). I guess this makes Apple Care a requirement. My question is, though, without Apple care, if after 1 year and 1 day, your hard disk fails, what would happen? Presumably you'd still need Apple to fix it. While it's somewhat reasonable to say, require someone to pay up to fix something that breaks, it's clearly not reasonable to have to throw the whole laptop away for this or some other minor, otherwise repairable failure. Now I'm fairly sure that failure to provide a means to fix it would open up Apple to class-actions etc, and certainly the extremely friendly replacement policy for non-Applecare ipad holders, out of warranty that I've experienced will mitigate it.

I think as long as Apple continue to realise that their quest for perfection in size and features means they need to continue to be graceful when people experience issues, I think everything will be ok.

Sigh. It is a bad day to already own a (relatively) new Macbook Pro 15 :)




Really great post thank you!!!!


To add - I think it is the case of 'deal with the devil' make the best, get the MOST of the people - don't be graceful 'cos we got the market by the cojones!

???

bhtooefr
Jun 13, 2012, 09:43 AM
Shame they don't have accidental damage coverage, like other laptop manufacturers offer. But, really, due to the usage model of laptops, a 3 year warranty makes sense.

alexgowers
Jun 13, 2012, 09:44 AM
I hear moans of soldered ram.
Ram is not needed for 99% of operations and with an SSD you don't need ram anyway.

I hear moans of non-replaceable batteries.
If you know about charging or have owned any RC heli or high performance rc car, these batteries need looking after but will work for many years with little or no capacity reduction. Never totally discharge, charge fully and leave to balance/trickle charge once over 100%. People who experience poor battery performance are buying a crap laptop like a dell or raping the battery to it's last and causing voltages to drop too low. I'm more concerned about people messing with these types of dangerous batteries at all, too right they should be in accessible and protected against idiot users.

I hear moans of SSD's not being upgradeable.
Sorry but they are still removable they just need a new connection, 3rd parties will be on it and you'll have upgrades if you need but again if you are maxing out your laptop memory you are probably filling it with junk.

I hear moans about general repairs.
If any laptop i bought stopped working for no reason i would expect a new one, apple will give you a new one too. If you broke it then you broke it and i would not expect anything but apple will usually sort a deal out to keep you happy. If you really want to tinker with anything inside these days you are living in cloud cuckoo land you nutter.

The computer market has not really moved forward relying on the normal intel etc to develop new smaller parts. Apple has obviously reached limits with current parts to improve the overall package so has decided to forge ahead and make new standards, i'm sure this will encourage other makers to reduce the size of replaceable parts for samsungs HPs etc. It's a great step by apple and you can't expect the first proper next gen laptop to have 10 year old laptop crap in it!

iReality85
Jun 13, 2012, 09:44 AM
It's interesting to note that the RAM chips (can't say "sticks" anymore ;)) are square in the teardown. If I recall, didn't the video at WWDC feature rectangular RAM chips in a 'parquet floor' pattern? If you count, there's 16 of them here... does that make them 32GB each? (16x32=512). You have the option of a 256GB, 512GB, or the less common 768GB SSD. I doubt they're 16GB RAM chips, and they can't be 64GB RAM chips. I wonder, depending upon the configuration, if Apple implements different size chips (i.e. for smaller SSD storage, larger chips; for larger SSD storage, smaller chips).

Seems like an awful lot of space to take up (at least with where the tech is at) by using smaller chips sizes to make up a total SSD.

GorgonPhone
Jun 13, 2012, 09:44 AM
It's a give and take. If you want newer, slimmer, lighter form factors, the manufacturer needs to break away from the designs we've been seeing the last 10 years. I'm all for it, I quit fiddling with the physical aspects of computers a long time ago.

THEY COULD HAVE STILL MADE THE RAME REMOVABLE THEY JUST DECIDED NOT TO.. IM GUESSING FUTURE MODELS WILL HAVE REMOVABLE RAM.. I am glad they are still selling the regular mac books with upgraded performance

chiefsilverback
Jun 13, 2012, 09:44 AM
For everyone complaining about Apple's rip off upgrade prices, check the aftermarket prices for 16GB of 1600MHz DDR3 RAM and 768GB SSDs.

Apple is a bit more expensive on the RAM front but not by an huge amount but the only thing close the their 768GB SSD I found is the OCZ 1TB at $2500!

Suddenly Apple's $500 charge doesn't seem too steep!

TheBeastman13
Jun 13, 2012, 09:45 AM
Mine had little over 400 cycles and lost half of the capacity. 45 minutes max between charges. battery was tested in a store and they said they couldn't do anything about it. 170 USD for a new, user replacable, battery.
This may be apples to oranges, but my Fall '08 Macbook has not had a battery problem and reads, if Im seeing it correctly, 1233 cycle counts after nearly four years of use. What are you all doing to damage these batteries so quickly ?

saxofunk
Jun 13, 2012, 09:47 AM
Every Apple model that has employed what I call a 'monolithic' logic board - onboard GPU, RAM, I/O, etc - everything - has had a major issue down the road and IMO caused early failure at the 3-5 year mark instead of the 5-7+ that used to be typical of Mac. Onboard RAM seems to be particularly bad, I'll cite iMac G5 iSight, iBook G3, iBook G4 as examples. RAM has a life expectancy too, just like batteries and hard drives. The iBook G3 had insufficient cooling for the GPU (G4 too really) and they would peel off the board or melt the solder. iMac G5s (every variety) had cooling issues too and the GPUs would fail, not to mention capacitor issues. If this is a sign of where Apple is headed, things are looking bad for me, a professional repair tech who pays his mortgage by doing repairs. I don't want to just replace the entire enclosure, just to put a new battery in, the keyboards in current unibody models were already expensive enough. Don't get me started on the Mac Pro NON-update.

pneves
Jun 13, 2012, 09:48 AM
I already had a MacBook Air previously,and was very happy with it (2010 model, actual package). So custom components is not that bad.

Afterwards I sold it because of RAM limitation. 4GB was not enough for me, but more important was the 13" form factor. I needed (and have) a 15" one.

What really matters me most on the new MacBook PRO is the glued battery. Now, this is really a concern to me and a real deal breaker. If on the Air they placed (and very well) a screwed battery, why on Hell they had to put a glued one on such otherwise spectacular machine. It just breaks my heart :(.

Sincerely yours,
Paulo Neves

iSellMyiPhone
Jun 13, 2012, 09:50 AM
It's pretty unfortunate that Apple is making it harder for end users to customize their machines.

MrNomNoms
Jun 13, 2012, 09:50 AM
Proofread is one word, not two. So the same thing applies to you.

It can be one word, hyphenated or two words - the message doesn't change where as the original post made absolutely NO sense what so ever. Now shut up and go back to what ever hole you dragged yourself out of.

nikhsub1
Jun 13, 2012, 09:50 AM
Being members to a tech blog like we all are, I think we forget there are a lot of people who have no desire to open up their machine to tinker with it, and will be more than satisfied with what comes in the box.
The opposite is also true.
Aw, I figured as much when seeing how thin it was. I'm curious as to how Apple will be replacing components for users who have defective/damaged machines.
Replace the whole logic board.
Complaining about not being able to get into this MBP is silly.

Just don't buy it. It's not the machine for you!
Stick with the other MBP's which in time will have retina too.

When my kids used to whine about stuff I would always say:

Okay, if you whine everything is off or you won't get this!

Wish that worked here:-)
It's not complaining its discussing the merits of non user serviceable/replaceable components in a "pro" machine.

Navdakilla
Jun 13, 2012, 09:50 AM
Applecare ftw

MH01
Jun 13, 2012, 09:52 AM
If people want a LEGO computer, they'd buy a box. If people want slim, nice, eyc, they'd buy a Mac. This news really shouldn't affect Mac-buyers.

Hate to tell you, but mac buyers have been upgrading thier macs for a very long time! We prefer to be treated as tech savvy, not techtards.

The nice thing about owning a mac was, that after a few years you could upgrade the ram and HDD to get more life out of it, at much lower costs. Now you get slugged up front at high prices to futureproof your purchase.

Celf
Jun 13, 2012, 09:53 AM
This may be apple to oranges, but my Fall '08 Macbook has not had a battery problem and reads, if Im seeing it correctly, 1233 cycle counts after nearly four years of use. What are you all doing to damage these batteries so quickly ?

Nothing special. Actually I used the battery the way alexgowers describes (post 128). In the Apple store they told me that a battery starts losing capacity between 400 and 600 full charging cycles. Because mine was 400+ I had to buy a new one.

Torrijos
Jun 13, 2012, 09:54 AM
For laptops - applecare was always justifiable.

This...

A 2010 study found that even the most reliable brand (Asus) saw a 15.6% chance of failure in the 3 years after purchase, Apple was at 17.4%.

While the build quality at Apple has certainly improved, you're still buying a powerful machine crammed in a space and heat dissipation constrained enclosure (Every time you launch a Game or a GPU Intensive app you have a serious heat gradient around the GPU), then again you're supposed to move around with it (less of a problem in the SSD Retina / Air-like machine but still) etc.

I personally had a a first generation core 2 Duo laptop that failed twice, so ALWAYS take the Applecare guaranty so you're sure to at least deaden the price over 3 years.

bobobenobi
Jun 13, 2012, 09:54 AM
Ram is not needed for 99% of operations and with an SSD you don't need ram anyway.

I don't need RAM when I have an SSD? Thank you, computer expert guy! I will sell the 24GB in my Mac Pro straight away!

medazinol
Jun 13, 2012, 09:55 AM
Oh boy, once the PC trolls get a hold of this information they're gonna go into full retard.

Packing this much horsepower into such a slim design warrants some trade-offs and the PC types will *never ever* understand.

So they live with 2" thick plastic monstrosities and secretly wish PC makers would come out with something just like Apple while retaining upgradeable this and that which of course will never happen because none of them are capable of designing a machine with this many custom parts. They'd rather use off the shelf parts for everything.

pandamonia
Jun 13, 2012, 09:55 AM
Mine had little over 400 cycles and lost half of the capacity. 45 minutes max between charges. battery was tested in a store and they said they couldn't do anything about it. 170 USD for a new, user replacable, battery.

Then your battery was faulty and you should have complained.

Consumer protection in the US is pretty crap though so i doubt you would get anything.

At least in the UK we get up to 5 years on expensive items.

cgk.emu
Jun 13, 2012, 10:00 AM
Isn't that flash storage, and not a sdd which is built in? Or is both the same?

I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly, but let me have a go: SSD is flash storage. The terms are interchangeable.

mdgm
Jun 13, 2012, 10:00 AM
The things most important to me as I waited for the new Macs were (in no particular order):

Ivy Bridge
USB3
Ethernet port kept (Pro feature with no superior technology to replace it a cost that would be justifiable)
Optical Drive
Additional Thunderbolt Port
Retina Display
Keeping design from 2011 MBP. Works well, thin enough, light enough, no need to change it.
Good repairability
Upgradeable RAM and HDD/SSD

So the features that I want are spread between the two MacBook Pro machines Apple offers (if the Retina machine can even be called a "Pro"). Sadly I doubt Apple will release the machine I want. If they were going to offer a Retina display upgrade to the old design they would have done so on launch.

iReality85
Jun 13, 2012, 10:03 AM
For everyone complaining about Apple's rip off upgrade prices, check the aftermarket prices for 16GB of 1600MHz DDR3 RAM and 768GB SSDs.

Apple is a bit more expensive on the RAM front but not by an huge amount but the only thing close the their 768GB SSD I found is the OCZ 1TB at $2500!

Suddenly Apple's $500 charge doesn't seem too steep!

It's hard to price compare RAM for the updated Airs and the new retina Macbook, since they use the new DDR3L memory, which is low voltage at 1.35V. Not many manufacturers make them currently, let alone offer it at the high end of 1600MHz.

As for Apple's SSD offerings, they are pricy. Upgrading 128GB to 256GB, you're looking at $300 (or $800 going from 128GB to 512GB). So that's $300 for 128GB. I know 128GB SSDs have reached almost dollar parity (1GB:$1) among many manufacturers.

mrial
Jun 13, 2012, 10:04 AM
Please define "future proof"

I've bought computers were it was an option to upgrade the harddisk to a whopping and future proof 40 Mb!!!! ;)

On the other hand ... the worst mac I've bought had a replacable processor with "Zero Insertion Force" connection ... the Mac IIvx. The whole supporting architecture held back any advantage to a faster processor. Now they solder the darn things in.

Just because you can replace parts doesn't necessarily improve it's future.

bhtooefr
Jun 13, 2012, 10:10 AM
Oh boy, once the PC trolls get a hold of this information they're gonna go into full retard.

Packing this much horsepower into such a slim design warrants some trade-offs and the PC types will *never ever* understand.

So they live with 2" thick plastic monstrosities and secretly wish PC makers would come out with something just like Apple while retaining upgradeable this and that which of course will never happen because none of them are capable of designing a machine with this many custom parts. They'd rather use off the shelf parts for everything.

Or, we don't care about the thickness that much. Oh, and my (workstation-class, not crap gamer-class) "monstrosity" has some plastic... but it's 1.4" thick, not 2", and it also has a magnesium frame, and some of the plastic has titanium mixed in, or is carbon-fiber reinforced. I wouldn't mind thicker for a better keyboard, actually, but I can always plug in something better to a USB port (and I often do).

You assume that we secretly want ultra-thin machines, and that we don't get the tradeoff. Myself, I do get the tradeoff, I just don't want to be on that side of the tradeoff, and I don't want an ultra-thin machine if I have to accept those compromises.

But, I'm also a display snob, and my display snobbery makes me choose between the MBPR, and my ancient ThinkPad - literally, my ThinkPad is the newest machine that can compete, and it's 5 year old tech, so slow that an entry level MBA with RAM maxed can beat it badly in performance, even on graphics performance. That's why I'm going to order a MBPR.

Swordylove
Jun 13, 2012, 10:12 AM
People are already complaining about the base price... and to have to add another $350 for Apple Care? :|

Belgrano
Jun 13, 2012, 10:13 AM
So if you have any battery problems they essentially have to replace the entire machine?

This is the problem. If you want a computer to last 3+ years, you WILL experience a dying battery.

This is it, folks! We're at the point where laptops are too thin for their own good. IMHO, packing anything more into a thinner size would be 100% academic.

Glad I bought the 2012 Air instead of this impractical tech experiment.

nnokey
Jun 13, 2012, 10:17 AM
OMG.... so much thermal paste....

samac92
Jun 13, 2012, 10:17 AM
This is the problem. If you want a computer to last 3+ years, you WILL experience a dying battery.

This is it, folks! We're at the point where laptops are too thin for their own good. IMHO, packing anything more into a thinner size would be 100% academic.

Glad I bought the 2012 Air instead of this impractical tech experiment.

These batteries should last 5 years according to Apple.

Laird Knox
Jun 13, 2012, 10:18 AM
I hear moans of soldered ram.
Ram is not needed for 99% of operations and with an SSD you don't need ram anyway.!

Do you know what RAM is? Hint: we aren't talking pickup trucks here.

lilo777
Jun 13, 2012, 10:19 AM
The most expensive laptop is, in essence, a disposable item. BTW, why did not they (iFixit) determine who manufactures LCD panel?

HatterZero
Jun 13, 2012, 10:20 AM
You can stretch Applecare. They often offer discounted replacement costs if they can't fix he wear and tear. Also, if the damage can somehow threaten anyone's safety, they will make exceptions. Applecare is the best warranty out there.

Examples:

-Water on laptop, fried the board. Took it to Apple, they said it would cost $700 to replace since it wasn't a manufacturing defect. However, they still couldn't fix it, so they sent back a brand new laptop. A newer laptop for $700.

-Flayed power cord. Apple said they couldn't replace it. Got manager on the phone, explained safety issues, they replaced it for free.

-Not to mention all the phones I've seen replaced over the years.

I buy my macs at Best Buy, I always purchase their geek squad protection. Few days ago I spilt soda on my 13 inch early 2011 macbook pro, just got the call for me to come in and pick up my mid 2012 13 inch macbook pro or pay the difference to upgrade to my 15.4.

covers normal wear and tear and accidental spills drops and cracks.

My friends ipad 1 16GB 3g ipad got damaged he got an ipad 3 4g for free....

Sure it costs more but I have always been pleased with BBs Geek Squad protection.

Avatar74
Jun 13, 2012, 10:21 AM
Like any new concept, it doesn't really pay to be a first adopter. the first of anything is, hopefully, clunkier than what follows... otherwise that's not innovation/improvement.

Simple as that... I have a Core Duo 15" MacBook Pro (mid-2009). I've got Applecare on it and I had the entire logic board replaced once or twice... inside of a week, including time to ship to/from the service center. There was no bickering between software and hardware vendors, no complaining about the slightest signs of wear being indicative of accidental damage, just replace the board... boom... done. Satisfied customer.

So I have no inclination right now to jump to the Retina. I tried that with the original Macbook Pro and it was the only lesson I needed. We don't live in the age where Steve Wozniak alone knows everything about every component inside your computer. He was the first and last personal computing engineer to possess that kind of knowledge, before systems became complicated by several orders of magnitude.

Here's what I like most:

1. I think the multi-vented thing is brilliant, and the asymmetric fans are genius. The whole setup design looks very similar to a turbocharger, so even aesthetically they've done it very cleanly... clean and functional is a lot harder than functional, and it shows a dedication to craft. They probably do other things very right.

2. Ditching the optical drive and winchester hard disk. I've been saying this for years, but removable storage is arcane, prone to damage/failure and completely unnecessary in the age of broadband/wireless. I'm glad they went down this road, and I hope all their devices are eventually flash-based, instant-bootable, wireless mobile capable ... winchester hard drives and internal slots are a heat source, a pain in the ass, and points of failure.

PracticalMac
Jun 13, 2012, 10:22 AM
Oh, great.

A $2300+ disposable laptop....

(battery is part most likely to fail)

Pakaku
Jun 13, 2012, 10:22 AM
I know I am shocked. Just shocked. I will definitely leave Apple now to find something much bigger and heavier that I can take apart with my walmart screw drivers.

Or I could just enjoy using a lighter machine with a beautiful display.

Nah, I like being able to open up my machine and replace parts if necessary.

Not being able to open a phone is justifiable, but not a computer...

Avatar74
Jun 13, 2012, 10:30 AM
Oh, great.

A $2300+ disposable laptop....

(battery is part most likely to fail)

Imagine for a moment a battery does fail. How often does the electrical problem that caused it go undiagnosed? Batteries don't just fail for no reason (nothing happens for no reason)... it's an electrical power source and a failure can mean some other electrical problem that could have already damaged other components.

So you might replace a failed battery, then a day later your other battery fails, then the logic board fails... how mad are you now?

There's a lot of upside for you, the user, in the end to actually put the responsibility for diagnosis/repair/replacement on Apple, and not yourself.

But for sake of argument, how many times have I replaced my battery on my 2009 MacBook? Zero. How many times have I needed to carry a second battery? Zero.

My Lenovo Thinkpad has a nice replaceable battery the connectors of which eat up a significant amount of space... it's clunky and it lasts about two hours max. Guess which laptop I like more?

funkybudda
Jun 13, 2012, 10:31 AM
For everyone complaining about Apple's rip off upgrade prices, check the aftermarket prices for 16GB of 1600MHz DDR3 RAM and 768GB SSDs.

Apple is a bit more expensive on the RAM front but not by an huge amount but the only thing close the their 768GB SSD I found is the OCZ 1TB at $2500!

Suddenly Apple's $500 charge doesn't seem too steep!

but you leave out the already-behind-the-curve GPU in 650M. PC laptops have 7970M since May and 680M this month, both will blow the 650M out of the water. You'd think a forward thinking company will Apple will use the most up to date GPU to drive the nice Retina display, but no, they decided to use older GPU.

andiwm2003
Jun 13, 2012, 10:31 AM
8g should be suffient for most NOW its in the future problems could occur. Best thing for Apple is that PROS might add extra ram making more money for Apple. Main thing is to purchase AppleCare anyway. Most PROS or money people will upgrade within the 3 year period.

For such an expensive product it's a shame but that's the price you pay for wanting thin laptops/desktops

I'm not worried about the RAM. It's only $200 to upgrade it right away and 16GB should be enough for the next 3-4 years.

I just hope the SSD can be upgraded without losing the warranty. SSD prices will go down in a relatively short time and the need for more SSD space will always be there. Right now 500GB is the minimum I would need. In two years I certainly would want a 1TB if available.

notjustjay
Jun 13, 2012, 10:32 AM
The things most important to me as I waited for the new Macs were (in no particular order):

Ivy Bridge
USB3
Ethernet port kept (Pro feature with no superior technology to replace it a cost that would be justifiable)
Optical Drive
Additional Thunderbolt Port
Retina Display
Keeping design from 2011 MBP. Works well, thin enough, light enough, no need to change it.
Good repairability
Upgradeable RAM and HDD/SSD


I agree with most of your post but I actually agree with Apple that it was time to take the optical drive out of the chassis. Not because I don't ever use it -- I do -- but because it was one of the only two components that had moving parts (the hard drive was the other one) and therefore one of the first things to fail.

The optical drive in my 2007-era MacBook Pro started acting up a few years ago. It still reads OK but doesn't reliably burn DVDs. When I want to burn discs, I plug in an external USB drive.

So I'm OK with removing the optical drive from the base configuration because the USB ones are cheap enough if you need one and that way if the drive breaks you're not lugging around dead weight like I am now.

gnasher729
Jun 13, 2012, 10:34 AM
You know the saying, "x, x, & x. Pick 2."

In this case it's "super thin, long battery life, & user-serviceable"

Apple picked their favorite 2 and they're the exact choices anyone could have predicted they'd make.

They also will happily sell you a 15" MBP with two other choices.


Oh, great.

A $2300+ disposable laptop....

(battery is part most likely to fail)

Not at all. Before 2008, batteries were consumables, like the tires on your car: You had to replace them from time to time. The new batteries last 1000 charges, and every charge is 7+ hours off the charger, so for most people now the battery will last as long as the computer. (And that is 1000 charges until the capacity is down to 80%, so the computer is still usable).

And I would think that Apple will know how to replace the battery when necessary.

samac92
Jun 13, 2012, 10:35 AM
Oh, great.

A $2300+ disposable laptop....

(battery is part most likely to fail)

As I've said, Apple says these batteries will last 5 years, and if they don't Apple will replace the battery for $200 out of warranty.

http://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro/service/battery/

klover
Jun 13, 2012, 10:35 AM
but you leave out the already-behind-the-curve GPU in 650M. PC laptops have 7970M since May and 680M this month, both will blow the 650M out of the water. You'd think a forward thinking company will Apple will use the most up to date GPU to drive the nice Retina display, but no, they decided to use older GPU.

A 680M in something the size of this Macbook? The heat would loosen up those glued-in batteries very quickly.

The 650M is the appropriate power-to-heat compromise for a case of these dimensions.

andiwm2003
Jun 13, 2012, 10:35 AM
Imagine for a moment a battery does fail. How often does the electrical problem that caused it go undiagnosed? Batteries don't just fail for no reason (nothing happens for no reason)... it's an electrical power source and a failure can mean some other electrical problem that could have already damaged other components.

So you might replace a failed battery, then a day later your other battery fails, then the logic board fails... how mad are you now?

There's a lot of upside for you, the user, in the end to actually put the responsibility for diagnosis/repair/replacement on Apple, and not yourself.

But for sake of argument, how many times have I replaced my battery on my 2009 MacBook? Zero. How many times have I needed to carry a second battery? Zero.

My Lenovo Thinkpad has a nice replaceable battery the connectors of which eat up a significant amount of space... it's clunky and it lasts about two hours max. Guess which laptop I like more?

I usually keep my old notebooks for a long time as backups. So being able to replace a expired (not damaged, just old) battery on the cheap after 5 years is certainly a plus for me. Now this option is unlikely to be there.

TheBeastman13
Jun 13, 2012, 10:39 AM
Nothing special. Actually I used the battery the way alexgowers describes (post 128). In the Apple store they told me that a battery starts losing capacity between 400 and 600 full charging cycles. Because mine was 400+ I had to buy a new one.
That is a shame. You must have had a faulty battery to only get 45 minutes of usage after a charge. My battery can go about three and half hours on a full charge depending on how much s*** Im doing at one time, and that is being said after 1233 cycles. Lol I hope I never get the "short end of the stick" when I buy my next Macintosh.

polyh3dron
Jun 13, 2012, 10:39 AM
In my 2007 MBP I went through about 4 batteries, all of which started bulging at the end of their quite short life. I finally gave up and stopped putting batteries in it. If the battery in this new MBP is anything similar and won't get fixed by Applecare if it screws up, I'll pass on it.

Avatar74
Jun 13, 2012, 10:41 AM
I usually keep my old notebooks for a long time as backups. So being able to replace a expired (not damaged, just old) battery on the cheap after 5 years is certainly a plus for me. Now this option is unlikely to be there.

Owning an old Mac is like owning a used Audi. Even if the car's paid off, it's a luxury car and parts are going to cost a lot more than lower priced models.

If it's a very big problem across the entire customer base, Apple will probably innovate ... but going toward more factory-replaceable batteries seems to be the trend because by and large it's not been a sore point for many customers.

I wouldn't expect that to change... so I would either plan to keep enough money around for repairs, or get a different laptop.

When someone thinks of the cost of a Ferrari, they see $350,000... but anyone who can actually buy one has to plan for about $20,000 a year in continued maintenance, too.

Imhotep397
Jun 13, 2012, 10:42 AM
The other major concern I have with this is performance. I mean, to drive a display that dense how much of the GPU will your work be getting? Would have made more sense to do this with a display, at least with a tower you could feasibly set up an SLI or Crossfire multi GPU rig and not have to think about it.

reubs
Jun 13, 2012, 10:46 AM
The only RAM option appears to be doubling from 8 to 16, and that's a $200 bump. OWC lists 16 gigs of RAM for $161.99, plus your own installation and removing it/reinstalling it during every troubleshooting or trip back to Apple.

I think it's more than fair for them to make it non-user serviceable for that rate. In the past, BTO upgrades have seemed cost-prohibitive in same cases, so this is a welcome change, IMO.

iZac
Jun 13, 2012, 10:46 AM
At least we can expect some aftermarket SSDs in the future, looks like anyone who gets this machine and expects to keep it for 3 or 4 years better max out the RAM and hope for a nice cheap SSD in a couple of years.

OneMike
Jun 13, 2012, 10:52 AM
It's a give and take. If you want newer, slimmer, lighter form factors, the manufacturer needs to break away from the designs we've been seeing the last 10 years. I'm all for it, I quit fiddling with the physical aspects of computers a long time ago.

As long as you can fiddle you have some control.

mytdave
Jun 13, 2012, 10:54 AM
The picture caption is incorrect. The Intel CPU would be the one in orange (rectangular, centered to the RAM) and the nVidia GPU would be the one in red (square, close to corner of mobo). BTW, the color box around the RAM is turquoise, not green.

shanmugam
Jun 13, 2012, 10:55 AM
I want $99 battery replacement program like iPad

enough said :mad:

may be corporations will through money on this non-upgradeable PRO machine.

next stop to screw the iMac

fred_garvin
Jun 13, 2012, 10:57 AM
This may be apples to oranges, but my Fall '08 Macbook has not had a battery problem and reads, if Im seeing it correctly, 1233 cycle counts after nearly four years of use. What are you all doing to damage these batteries so quickly ?

I have the same first unibody, fall 2008 15" pro. Battery started bulging in April and had to be replaced. A common problem is using them more as movable desktops. I have it plugged in 95% of the time, so had < 100 cycles. Apparently, without exercise, my battery was a couch potato and became obese. :rolleyes:

I bought a program, watts, since then which reminds me to unplug every so often, discharge monthly, etc. It was pretty cheap.

I just hope that if a fan dies or the battery goes that a 30min trip to the genius bar could take care of it.

TheBeastman13
Jun 13, 2012, 10:58 AM
Nothing special. Actually I used the battery the way alexgowers describes (post 128). In the Apple store they told me that a battery starts losing capacity between 400 and 600 full charging cycles. Because mine was 400+ I had to buy a new one.

Just read post #128, and I think, if I understood correctly, Ive been doing just what he says NOT to do. Yet, my battery, imo, is great for its age. I always drain the battery down to ~5%, and then do a full, 100% charge (or a 6-8hr charge over night if I am asleep). I REFRAIN from having it charge while I continue to work with the Macbook (that is a 'trickle charge,' correct ?) unless it is necessary to be charging while I finish an edit.

rovex
Jun 13, 2012, 10:58 AM
If AppleCare wasn't justifiable before, it is now.

It would be if they actually cared for some of us.

Mistrblank
Jun 13, 2012, 11:01 AM
I'm not happy with them moving everything to proprietary.


-P

It's a laptop, they're typically pretty proprietary to being with. I don't remember the last laptop I've ever owned where anything more than memory and drive were replacable and I actually replaced them before replacing the whole thing.

PracticalMac
Jun 13, 2012, 11:02 AM
As I've said, Apple says these batteries will last 5 years, and if they don't Apple will replace the battery for $200 out of warranty.

http://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro/service/battery/

That's nice, but feel sorry for the guy who has to tear out the batteries and the person who owns a computer that is messed up on inside.

...Unless the batteries not meant to be removed.

AppleInMyBlood
Jun 13, 2012, 11:02 AM
I'm not happy with them moving everything to proprietary.


-P

Funny, I feel exactly the opposite. I was always a little disappointed when the Mac's internals started to seem a little like everybody else's. They've been steadily moving back toward Jobs' vision of a fully proprietary product in the last few years, despite still using Intel CPUs.

tekno
Jun 13, 2012, 11:06 AM
Was hoping the SSD could be upgraded. :(

This kinda sucks, means one should buy the 512 SSD for futureproofing.

Why futureproof when the battery will be considerably less powerful after a couple of years and, as it seems to be irreplaceable, you'll be wanting a new one.

faroZ06
Jun 13, 2012, 11:07 AM
I'm not happy with them moving everything to proprietary.


-P

Are any other PC companies making laptops with retina displays? It seems like someone would (most likely Samsung).

alyount
Jun 13, 2012, 11:07 AM
I'm sure the technicians who gave the new MBP a low rating were among the first to order it for themselves.

As other posters have noted with the tight design I say GREAT JOB APPLE.

Out of the 20 years I've owned Macs I've only had one issue and had to have it fixed. This was only because my 2 year old put coins in the CD drive of my iMac. I could have done it myself but I'd rather let someone else do it.

I've talked with iFixit's upper management on subjects like this and kind of laugh at them. They are all about repairability and a better environmental impact, however I'm sure those parts (in other computers, that get good ratings from iFixit) that are being replaced are not recycled at all and get tossed in the trash. I would think they would be encouraging users to take it to the professionals, who can be required to recycle rather than throw it out.

faroZ06
Jun 13, 2012, 11:11 AM
Is Ram interchangeable in the MBPR?

Not, it is soldered on, which I think is stupid.

----------

I'm sure the technicians who gave the new MBP a low rating were among the first to order it for themselves.

As other posters have noted with the tight design I say GREAT JOB APPLE.

Out of the 20 years I've owned Macs I've only had one issue and had to have it fixed. This was only because my 2 year old put coins in the CD drive of my iMac. I could have done it myself but I'd rather let someone else do it.

I've talked with iFixit's upper management on subjects like this and kind of laugh at them. They are all about repairability and a better environmental impact, however I'm sure those parts (in other computers, that get good ratings from iFixit) that are being replaced are not recycled at all and get tossed in the trash. I would think they would be encouraging users to take it to the professionals, who can be required to recycle rather than throw it out.

Whether or not the MBPR is a great, reliable machine, it is still not repairable. Also, it's not just about repairs; you can't upgrade the RAM or SSD on these things. For most, this is not a problem because they don't even know what RAM is.

The MBPR is stunning, but I'd wait a little before buying one because this is brand-new technology. I think only Apple is using it at the moment, too. Another retina Mac could come out not much later that is cheaper or better.

minnus
Jun 13, 2012, 11:15 AM
Had I known the battery was glued in, I wouldn't have placed an order.

NorEaster
Jun 13, 2012, 11:16 AM
It's a give and take. If you want newer, slimmer, lighter form factors, the manufacturer needs to break away from the designs we've been seeing the last 10 years. I'm all for it, I quit fiddling with the physical aspects of computers a long time ago.

Upgrading your laptop's RAM and hard drive is hardly fiddling. It's a completely reasonable requirement for a user to upgrade his/her machine's memory and storage in order to extend the life of the machine. Some of us aren't rich enough to spend thousands every 2-3 years (especially when newer OS versions and applications are more demanding).

Flitzy
Jun 13, 2012, 11:16 AM
Yawn.

Who or what is an iFixIt and why do I care what they think? Seems like just another lame tech blog trying to get hits with a sensationalistic title and a criticism of Apple.

faroZ06
Jun 13, 2012, 11:16 AM
Out of the 20 years I've owned Macs I've only had one issue and had to have it fixed. This was only because my 2 year old put coins in the CD drive of my iMac. I could have done it myself but I'd rather let someone else do it.


A CD got stuck in my iMac for some reason, and it constantly tried to eject it for over a year until it finally came out. I think the Mac Pro is the machine for me...

Digital Skunk
Jun 13, 2012, 11:17 AM
This is where folks wanted the computer to go. Sure, many of us wanted to be able to upgrade our own RAM and drives but anyone not seeing this coming was blind and didn't really know Apple.

The minute they made the battery on the unibody 17" non user replaceable I knew they'd make every mobile device they design non user serviceable.

faroZ06
Jun 13, 2012, 11:18 AM
Yawn.

Who or what is an iFixIt and why do I care what they think? Seems like just another lame tech blog trying to get hits with a sensationalistic title and a criticism of Apple.

They presented clear facts. The RAM is soldered on, and there are proprietary parts. To save space, there are other reasons why it is harder to get in like the placement of the battery.

This is no iPhone antenna BS.

NorEaster
Jun 13, 2012, 11:19 AM
Funny, I feel exactly the opposite. I was always a little disappointed when the Mac's internals started to seem a little like everybody else's. They've been steadily moving back toward Jobs' vision of a fully proprietary product in the last few years, despite still using Intel CPUs.

Why does uniqueness in internal design matter? If you want Macs to be unique just so you can feel special, then that's a fairly elitist attitude. It's the marriage of software and hardware that make Apple special...not the uniqueness of internal componentry.

mgsolidsnak3
Jun 13, 2012, 11:19 AM
My current macbook is 5 years old.
During its time the ram was replaced from 1GB to 2GB and later on to 4GB.
The hard disk was replaced from 120GB to 500GB hybrid seagate.

And finally I replaced the battery after it has swollen/expanded. (about half inch)
I don't even want to picture the damage a swollen battery would cause to the new macbook. most probably the casing and motherboard and everything around it. would be destroyed since its bolted in inside with no room to expand to.

And before someone mentions applecare. I had one for my current macbook. The battery incident occurred 3 years and 4 months after the purchase.

faroZ06
Jun 13, 2012, 11:20 AM
This is where folks wanted the computer to go. Sure, many of us wanted to be able to upgrade our own RAM and drives but anyone not seeing this coming was blind and didn't really know Apple.

The minute they made the battery on the unibody 17" non user replaceable I knew they'd make every mobile device they design non user serviceable.

Well, it actually is replaceable. You just need a screwdriver and slightly more bravery than if it just came off with the push of a button. My friend, who has no experience opening computers, did it easily.

The MBPR has a battery that is actually glued on.

MacSince1990
Jun 13, 2012, 11:20 AM
****. This basically means you HAVE to get AppleCare... plu shave to upgrade te memory at Apple when you buy it if you want 16 GB.. which of course I'll need (if not more) in a couple years anyway... asdklfjs. Now I really just have no idea what to do.

It's a give and take. If you want newer, slimmer, lighter form factors, the manufacturer needs to break away from the designs we've been seeing the last 10 years. I'm all for it, I quit fiddling with the physical aspects of computers a long time ago.

This is in no way true in this case, and not necessarily true in general either.

Also, this is more going BACK to an eariler time.... Macs-- especially in the pre-PowerPC era-- used to have their memory sodlered to the logic board. Granted, even THOSE were upgradeable... :rolleyes:

faroZ06
Jun 13, 2012, 11:22 AM
My current macbook is 5 years old.
During its time the ram was replaced from 1GB to 2GB and later on to 4GB.
The hard disk was replaced from 120GB to 500GB hybrid seagate.

And finally I replaced the battery after it has swollen/expanded. (about half inch)
I don't even want to picture the damage a swollen battery would cause to the new macbook. most probably the casing and motherboard and everything around it. would be destroyed since its bolted in inside with no room to expand to.

And before someone mentions applecare. I had one for my current macbook. The battery incident occurred 3 years and 4 months after the purchase.

I'd imagine that this new one does not have heat issues. My mom has a 5-year-old MacBook Pro that runs at 135˚F normally and 221˚F under heavy usage (above boiling point). The battery swelled so much that it pushed the trackpad up and made it unusable, so we replaced it of course.

ristlin
Jun 13, 2012, 11:22 AM
I buy my macs at Best Buy, I always purchase their geek squad protection. Few days ago I spilt soda on my 13 inch early 2011 macbook pro, just got the call for me to come in and pick up my mid 2012 13 inch macbook pro or pay the difference to upgrade to my 15.4.

covers normal wear and tear and accidental spills drops and cracks.

My friends ipad 1 16GB 3g ipad got damaged he got an ipad 3 4g for free....

Sure it costs more but I have always been pleased with BBs Geek Squad protection.

Haven't used Geek Squad in ages, but it looks like they have improved greatly. Glad to see there are other options out there. In this case, looks like it may be the superior option.

jasontll
Jun 13, 2012, 11:22 AM
It's like you bought an exotic European supercar, you don't want to put a Japanese turbocharger or other parts in your super car right?

faroZ06
Jun 13, 2012, 11:26 AM
It's like you bought an exotic European supercar, you don't want to put a Japanese turbocharger or other parts in your super car right?

Upgrading the RAM in your Mac is not like this. You can buy Apple-branded Kingston RAM online and put it on your Mac if the RAM is not soldered on.

Also, if the Japanese parts are better, I would put them in my European supercar (assuming we're ignoring the drop in resale value).

MacSince1990
Jun 13, 2012, 11:28 AM
And if a brick falls on you while you're not wearing a helmet, you'll die.

Some risks are worth taking and not thinking about.


Possibly the worst analogy I've seen on MacRumors.

CWallace
Jun 13, 2012, 11:28 AM
I want $99 battery replacement program like iPad.

Considering it's capacity, I would not be surprised if the "spares price" for the battery in the MBPR would be more than the $349 AppleCare cost.

My Apple hardware has been bulletproof for the years I have owned it, but I get AppleCare because it seems to help resale value (I buy on the "Tick" cycle for Intel components so I replace everything about every two years), but when I bought the MBA, I also bought it should I need battery replacement (I don't use the device enough for the battery to fail for any reason but defect).

ristlin
Jun 13, 2012, 11:32 AM
I'd imagine that this new one does not have heat issues. My mom has a 5-year-old MacBook Pro that runs at 135˚F normally and 221˚F under heavy usage (above boiling point). The battery swelled so much that it pushed the trackpad up and made it unusable, so we replaced it of course.

That MacBook Pro was my first big laptop purchase and lasted me until I finished college. I had a problem with the power cord getting frayed and was too broke to buy a replacement (and my applecare was now well over)

I called Apple, mentioned "safety concern" (because, quite frankly, the cords were sparking and smoke was coming out occasionally), was connected with a manager/lead who asked to go over the steps that led to that problem and verify that I wasn't hurt. They offered a replacement power adapter + cord.

I'm sure if you called, they would've replaced the battery. A swelling battery is cause for concern.

----------

possibly the worst analogy i've seen on macrumors.

lol

AppleInMyBlood
Jun 13, 2012, 11:34 AM
Sure, 16 GB sounds like a lot now, but for pros on the bleeding edge, they're likely to require 32 GB within the next two years -- before the extended AppleCare on this thing expires.

The old MBPs had a max. of 8GB RAM, this has a max. of 16GB, and getting that extra 8 at the outset costs a couple hundred $. So I don't see the problem.

Unless you want to jerry rig it in two years to take more, I guess, but really, a pro that needs 32GB RAM is probably going to require state-of-the-art CPU and graphics chips, too, so putting more RAM in an old laptop isn't going to suddenly make it suitable for their work. They'll buy a new one.

CJM
Jun 13, 2012, 11:35 AM
An interesting device, from an engineering standpoint to be sure. I'm not getting one, though.

My iPad is portability and I can crunch numbers with a two foot tower.

bhtooefr
Jun 13, 2012, 11:35 AM
It's like you bought an exotic European supercar, you don't want to put a Japanese turbocharger or other parts in your super car right?

Modern European supercars have a mix of European, American, and Asian components. Yes, even Chinese. (Primarily in the electronics.)

DudeDad
Jun 13, 2012, 11:37 AM
The only thing I hate about this is the battery. If the battery dies you can't replace it yourself.

You cannot do that now! I can, but my MBP is from 2008.

faroZ06
Jun 13, 2012, 11:38 AM
That MacBook Pro was my first big laptop purchase and lasted me until I finished college. I had a problem with the power cord getting frayed and was too broke to buy a replacement (and my applecare was now well over)

I called Apple, mentioned "safety concern" (because, quite frankly, the cords were sparking and smoke was coming out occasionally), was connected with a manager/lead who asked to go over the steps that led to that problem and verify that I wasn't hurt. They offered a replacement power adapter + cord.

I'm sure if you called, they would've replaced the battery. A swelling battery is cause for concern.[COLOR="#808080"]


Well, I don't think a battery that has already swelled and cooled would be much of a threat to my safety. After all, my mom had been using the laptop for a day after it swelled up because she somehow didn't notice it. It was randomly losing power, though.

I am going to take the MBP to Apple today and ask them about this. What WAS a threat to my safety was that thing's CPU going above boiling point. At 221˚F, that thing could explode.

----------

You cannot do that now! I can, but my MBP is from 2008.

Yes you can. It does not simply click off, but you can open it and take it out easily. This is not the case with the MBPR because the battery is glued on. I was never a laptop user and never will be.

DudeDad
Jun 13, 2012, 11:38 AM
Possibly the worst analogy I've seen on MacRumors.

But the brick is user replaceable....(:D)

Piggie
Jun 13, 2012, 11:38 AM
The fact that it's completely solid state is very helpful though. You shouldn't have any problems unless it's simply a lemon. The two most common failures on older laptops are the hard disk and the DVD drive. Apple's batteries are a lot better than they used to be too.

Errr, no it's not.
You have two spinning fans inside that will wear out. Fans always wear out over time, as well as suck in dust. We all know that if we take a home computer apart and give it a vacuum from time to time.

n8236
Jun 13, 2012, 11:45 AM
The batteries of today and especially what Apple uses will not die within the time you upgrade your MBP. In the slim chance that it does, you still might have the original warranty and/or AppleCare. Possibly, by then, a resolution has been presented on replacing it.

The ram upgrade is a moot point as well. For the $2,199 MBPR, 8GBs is plenty. If 16 GBs is needed, it would have been purchased from the start because you're a "professional" power user.

But the SSD is what gets me. Apple is charging an arm and a leg for the 256 GB bump. By the time OWC produces a kit, it would rival that of what Apple charges, so it's a lose lose.

I'm so disappointed 512 GB was not included in the $2,199 model.

iSee
Jun 13, 2012, 11:46 AM
Well, not surprising but this stinks.

It's interesting. These laptops are still upgradable in an unconventional but still useful sense: you can sell your old lappy for decent $ and buy a new one (or a different used one, for that matter).

But they are horribly unrepairable.

MehApple
Jun 13, 2012, 11:49 AM
Was hoping the SSD could be upgraded. :(

This kinda sucks, means one should buy the 512 SSD for futureproofing.

512GB is the base

bhtooefr
Jun 13, 2012, 11:50 AM
512GB is the base

For the 2.6 GHz model.

The actual base model, the 2.3 GHz model, is 256 only.

hugodrax
Jun 13, 2012, 11:58 AM
Computers are becoming the equivalent of a house appliance (ie TV set, Microwave)

People don't go and wrench on thier own automobile, Microwave or TV set.

I myself have no interest in taking apart laptops to fix them.

G4DP
Jun 13, 2012, 12:11 PM
For laptops - applecare was always justifiable.

Not when they charge almost 20% of the original cost it's not. It's a con, nothing more, nothing less. £280 for a 15" laptop get real. That isn't justifiable even in Apples screwed up world.

faroZ06
Jun 13, 2012, 12:20 PM
Not when they charge almost 20% of the original cost it's not. It's a con, nothing more, nothing less. £280 for a 15" laptop get real. That isn't justifiable even in Apples screwed up world.

Another reason to buy a MacBook Pro with low RAM then upgrade it yourself: The initial cost will be lower, so AppleCare will cost less.

bhtooefr
Jun 13, 2012, 12:21 PM
At least here in the US, it looks like AppleCare will be $349 across the board for the MBPR.

And you can't upgrade the RAM after the fact, on the MBPR.

faroZ06
Jun 13, 2012, 12:24 PM
Errr, no it's not.
You have two spinning fans inside that will wear out. Fans always wear out over time, as well as suck in dust. We all know that if we take a home computer apart and give it a vacuum from time to time.

Fans are more reliable than optical drives and hard drives. The fan is just a motor, but the drives are motors with other moving parts in there.

In all of my experience, I've never seen a fan fail, but I've seen plenty of hard drives and optical drives die. My cousin's stupid Windows laptop came with a Blu Ray drive that broke very quickly. Luckily, it had insurance for water damage, so he dumped coffee on it and got a new one.

----------

At least here in the US, it looks like AppleCare will be $349 across the board for the MBPR.

And you can't upgrade the RAM after the fact, on the MBPR.

This is the one beef I have with Apple. They're too closed. I like it to be somewhat closed but not this much. Soldered on RAM is ridiculous. Internal batteries are great as long as they can be taken out with a screwdriver (like the non-retina MBPs). I'm fine with the security and lack of Flash in iOS, but why can you not make plugins for other apps in iOS? It's simply limiting.

Oh, and this wouldn't matter so much if it wasn't on their model that is made for professionals.

bhtooefr
Jun 13, 2012, 12:26 PM
I actually have seen fans fail. Generally the bearings let go, although on most machines, it's rare.

Although I don't know how many HSFs I replaced on my FrankenPad back when it was a T60p... at least the T61p fan was greatly improved.

cabster22
Jun 13, 2012, 12:31 PM
Oh, great.

A $2300+ disposable laptop....

(battery is part most likely to fail)

to add further, this is extremely elitist of Apple and very unsustainable design practice to be promoting in this day and age and a bit of a design cop out if i do say so in order to make the MBP marginally thinner, who really cares if you made it a tad thinner? except for superficial people that like to be seen with expensive shiny new toys and will only ever use it for word and the internet, I say to you if you think a thiner MBP is going to change your life you need to go get one! As a product that should be aimed at demanding "Pro" users on the move that need to be able to up spec the simple basics on their work horse to keep them sane and "smily happy people" REM quote. For people that say 8GB ram is plenty for a MBP I'm sorry you should really have bought a MB Air, try running VM Ware Fusion or a 3D CAD programme on 8GB go figure! By soldering in RAM & SSD this will only result in contributing to increasing consumer waste levels in the not to distant future. Refurbing these Retina MBP's then selling them on is going to be a non starter as well, so in 4-5 years down the line if the battery lasts that long and its spec'ed out of date it will probably end up lying around your house designated as a frivolous child's toy or door stop along with all your other old laptops.

But the MBP materials can all be recycled I here you cry thats really sustainable of apple isn't it? well this is to be commended on the face of it, but if we take the main material aluminium, generally aluminium over its life cycle is a high embodied energy material that consumes large amounts of energy in it's extraction, production & disposal. Creating a product that is effectively deposable after 4-5 years rather than being fixable or upgradable and that could last for 10 years is truly shame worthy, I just hope other manufactures don't try and copy this as a viable and sustainable way forward to design products in the future!

As you can probably tell after my rant i am rather peed off with this so called evolutionary leap forward, sorry for being so negative about the new Retina MBP but someone has to give impartial and constructive feedback in order for creation of truly evolutionary products!

keelio
Jun 13, 2012, 12:31 PM
To further stretch the car analogy, I have a 1974 BMW 2002 and a 2011 Mazda3.

Leaning under the hood of the bimmer, there is enough room for me to almost touch the ground reaching around the radiator/fan. You can swap in different radiators, carbs, brakesets, headers, pretty easily. I have a 320 radiator, 5 series brakes, have moved the battery to the trunk, Weber carb, bunch of other stuff. Car nerd geek love - however I need to spend time under the hood to keep things purring and if I don't my bimmer will leave me stranded on the side of the road.

My Mazda is a black box under the hood. Other than oil changes and fluids, I would want to touch anything there. Things are packed in super tight. However, the machines moves beautifully and I have no need to mess with it. Blissful reliable ignorance. I'm sure fancier cars (I'd call the rMBP closer to an M3) have even tighter black boxes under the hood.

We're a bit of a geek audience and are probably biased towards the touch and feel love of the '74 bimmer. A black box is what you're going to end up with if you want that completely dialed/optimized/slick machine.

bonehead
Jun 13, 2012, 12:35 PM
The only reason the SSD isn't upgradable now is the connector. I would bet that OWC is going to find a supplier and start offering upgrade kits at some point.

I.am.Andy
Jun 13, 2012, 12:37 PM
Just relax.
Sounds to me that most guys that are whining about price and this and that just can't afford it.
But then you can still buy one of the thicker ones that were upgraded too.
Oh stop. The thick one with 15', 16 GB Ram and 512 GB SSD costs more than the retina MBP.
Well, there're still refurbished models...

In any case. In two or three years I'll still be able to sell my retina MBP (2,6 Mhz, 16/512 GB) for a good price and I can buy a new one.
And I really love its design. The main reason for me to buy Apple products.

faroZ06
Jun 13, 2012, 12:41 PM
Oh, great.

A $2300+ disposable laptop....

(battery is part most likely to fail)

The battery is the most likely part to fail, but it will last a very long time. Also, you can always get it repaired if it does fail.

On my iMac, the most likely part to fail (setting the infamous lemon NVIDIA card I have aside) is the hard drive. Same with my MacBook. The only reason the MBPR's battery is the most likely to fail is because it uses an SSD.

----------

Just relax.
Sounds to me that most guys that are whining about price and this and that just can't afford it.
But then you can still buy one of the thicker ones that were upgraded too.
Oh stop. The thick one with 15', 16 GB Ram and 512 GB SSD costs more than the retina MBP.
Well, there're still refurbished models...

In any case. In two or three years I'll still be able to sell my retina MBP (2,6 Mhz, 16/512 GB) for a good price and I can buy a new one.
And I really love its design. The main reason for me to buy Apple products.

Good plan. Selling your Mac every 2 years or so (right before a refresh) keeps your $/year low.

I made the mistake of keeping my 2006 iMac. Keeping this for 10 years costs the same as buying a new one every 2 years and selling the old one.

----------

The only reason the SSD isn't upgradable now is the connector. I would bet that OWC is going to find a supplier and start offering upgrade kits at some point.

Or a SATA to proprietary Apple connection adapter.

Dangerous Theory
Jun 13, 2012, 12:41 PM
You can either have something small, or something proprietary. Not both.


Except...this case we have small AND proprietary..?

Renzatic
Jun 13, 2012, 12:41 PM
People don't go and wrench on thier own automobile...

It's not just repair issues, which as far as laptops are concerned, has always been a pain in the butt. Rather, it's the inability to upgrade that hurts the most here, specially on parts that have been so easy to swap out up til now.

I can understand soldered ram and being unable to upgrade the SSD in the Macbook Air. It's more a consumer oriented device, designed for people who want a little more oomph than an iPad, but won't be going all out and straining the hardware on it on a daily basis.

The MBP is a...well...it's a Pro machine. By it's definition, you expect at least some parts of it to be upgradeable, simply because an average Pro user will put that much more strain on the machine, and are likely to wear it out that much quicker. I'm not sure about failure rates in SSDs, but I'm going to assume that it does happen on occasion. Same with ram. I've had sticks of ram go bad on me before. Plenty of times. In the past, this was a minor inconvenience. All you had to do was run out to the store to get a new stick, pop out the old one and pop in the new. It's barely a couple hours worth of downtime. With the new Pro? If your ram goes bad, you'll have to send in your entire machine to Apple, which could take days to fix.

To use your car analogy, it's like not being able to replace a flat tire because it's stitched to the wheel (somehow), and you can't replace the wheel because it's welded to the axle.

But hey, I guess that's the future, right? The future is all about making things that were easy to do in the past that much more difficult because THHHHIIINNNNN!

MagnusVonMagnum
Jun 13, 2012, 12:44 PM
Can't upgrade the RAM yourself now.

Are you surprised? It's the new Tim Crook Apple, baby! Get used to it.

Ethernet Adapter -$$$$$$ Cha-Ching!
Firewire Adapter -$$$$$$ Cha-Ching!
USB Hub due to only 2 stinking ports - $$$$$$$ Cha-Ching
Want DVD Drive? I hope you have a 2nd computer to share or get ready to buy an external drive - $$$$ Cha-Ching!

Battery? Forget about it.
Upgrade your own hard drive? Forget about it.
Upgrade your own ram? Forget about it.
Want full Blu-Ray support? Forget about it.

Frankly, I'm SHOCKED they included an HDMI port. That robs them of the chance to sell your another adapter to connect it to a standard tv or limited resolution (1080p) monitor.

Overall, it's hard to say how this is a "Pro" notebook. Pro denotes professional and that means flexibility which is clearly lacking here. Apple seems to use it more as a catch phrase than an actual meaning for professionals (made obvious the day they started calling that crappy 13" model a "Pro" product. It's kind of like what happened to THX products. First they meant something and a certain certified quality level. Now they just mean someone paid Lucasfilm the license fee to use the name and thus it's now MEANINGLESS.

But there's a clear change here between Cook and Jobs. As bad as some of the hardware moves were under Steve (iMacs were already largely like this), there was at least some moves for user expansion (ram and even hard drives and once upon a time the battery), but now it's NADA. You bought a $2200 iPad Turbo with built-in keyboard and a few extra ports.

mjoshi123
Jun 13, 2012, 12:45 PM
Poeple vouching for Applecare - what happens at the end of Applecare i.e. after 2years when you are out of Applecare, your MBP's harddrive breaks down ? Yes it will break, every hard drive fails, some fails earlier other fails later. You cannot upgrade it on your own with aftermarket and Apple will charge you hand and limb for new one. I think I'll just buy regular 13" MBP and keep extra $1000 in my pocket for other more relevant upgrades. They screwed us same way with iMacs starting 2011.

gibbo132
Jun 13, 2012, 12:48 PM
It's not that bad in my opinion, RAM is soldered in but if I want to buy 16gbs of RAM for a 2012 non MBP that's £130 from crucial, apple is charging a whole £30 more for 16gbs. If you can afford a new retina MBP then £30 over doing it yourself is not bad!
And in time hopefully we will see ssd upgrades from the likes of owc in the near future (they have confirmed they are working on it).
I will be buying a new retina display MBP soon and can't wait, but I understand it won't suit everyone's needs. If it dosent then apple updated the old one for you! :)

superman23
Jun 13, 2012, 12:54 PM
It's a give and take. If you want newer, slimmer, lighter form factors, the manufacturer needs to break away from the designs we've been seeing the last 10 years. I'm all for it, I quit fiddling with the physical aspects of computers a long time ago.

so have I, but I've also replaced the battery of every laptop I've owned. At least once. I don't buy a new one every year. Though I'm sure many Apple buyers do..

Rogifan
Jun 13, 2012, 12:55 PM
I'm no engineering, but isn't it incredible that the new MBP has such powerful components (esp. graphics card) in such a small form factor? The biggest innovation could be the cooling, not the screen.

And the Wintel clowns posting over at CNET, engadget, etc. are claiming they could build a machine that runs circles around RMBP for half the price. :D

JohnnyLemonhead
Jun 13, 2012, 12:55 PM
Apple components never fail anyway. Hard drives, ram and batteries certainly never fail, regardless of the manufacturer. Therefore, I fail to see any problem with this design....

Now if only Apple could design cars, that would be great. I bet they could design a car with built-in brake rotors and pads that could never be changed, even when they wore out! That would save on repair bills big time...

Piggie
Jun 13, 2012, 12:57 PM
To further stretch the car analogy, I have a 1974 BMW 2002 and a 2011 Mazda3.

Leaning under the hood of the bimmer, there is enough room for me to almost touch the ground reaching around the radiator/fan. You can swap in different radiators, carbs, brakesets, headers, pretty easily. I have a 320 radiator, 5 series brakes, have moved the battery to the trunk, Weber carb, bunch of other stuff. Car nerd geek love - however I need to spend time under the hood to keep things purring and if I don't my bimmer will leave me stranded on the side of the road.

My Mazda is a black box under the hood. Other than oil changes and fluids, I would want to touch anything there. Things are packed in super tight. However, the machines moves beautifully and I have no need to mess with it. Blissful reliable ignorance. I'm sure fancier cars (I'd call the rMBP closer to an M3) have even tighter black boxes under the hood.

We're a bit of a geek audience and are probably biased towards the touch and feel love of the '74 bimmer. A black box is what you're going to end up with if you want that completely dialed/optimized/slick machine.

But. :)

Would you buy the Mazda if the bonnet of the car was welded shut, and no 3rd party garages could use their normal tools to access the cars internals, so in effect you had to use Mazda with their high prices for any repairs.

Hornhonker
Jun 13, 2012, 12:58 PM
The only thing I hate about this is the battery. If the battery dies you can't replace it yourself.

Yup, I'm supposed to fix these things so I'm curious what methods will be
involved to replace glued in batteries ? Perhaps they will provide a special
chisel and just chop the things out ?:D:eek:

840quadra
Jun 13, 2012, 01:01 PM
Not when they charge almost 20% of the original cost it's not. It's a con, nothing more, nothing less. £280 for a 15" laptop get real. That isn't justifiable even in Apples screwed up world.

If it was Applecare+ I could totally justify that cost, however, I agree that asking me to pay that price for a simple extended warranty is a bit exotic.

I have yet to purchase Applecare for any of my personal Apple devices. I haven't felt the need, despite actively depending on most of my Apple gear for 5+ years.

Perhaps I have just been lucky.


Yup, I'm supposed to fix these things so I'm curious what methods will be
involved to replace glued in batteries ? Perhaps they will provide a special
chisel and just chop the things out ?:D:eek:

The solution as it stands is to pay to have Apple replace the battery. They provide the service, and for $200 US, you get a replacement battery installed in your device. Considering the price of the battery cells alone would likely cost a consumer that much anyway, it isn't too bad.

http://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro/service/battery/

The only downer is, sending your trusty laptop away while they do this work.

lilo777
Jun 13, 2012, 01:03 PM
I want $99 battery replacement program like iPad

enough said :mad:

may be corporations will through money on this non-upgradeable PRO machine.

next stop to screw the iMac

They won't. But some of them will allow BYOC :D

JeffLubowski
Jun 13, 2012, 01:03 PM
Just relax.
Sounds to me that most guys that are whining about price and this and that just can't afford it.
But then you can still buy one of the thicker ones that were upgraded too.
Oh stop. The thick one with 15', 16 GB Ram and 512 GB SSD costs more than the retina MBP.
Well, there're still refurbished models...

In any case. In two or three years I'll still be able to sell my retina MBP (2,6 Mhz, 16/512 GB) for a good price and I can buy a new one.
And I really love its design. The main reason for me to buy Apple products.

I don't get all the whining. This is like a concept car. It is nice to look at, has cutting edge parts and inspires lust. It also has a few quirks that need to be ironed out before being available for the masses.

Apple, though, is making it available to the high-end consumer for a discounted price. These things are selling for less than comparable 15" MBPs. Like the iPad and Air, Apple seems to pricing this thing with their eye on making the competition sweat. No other manufacturer can make such a device at this price point.

Apple claims there are 66 million Mac users. That is tiny compared to the number of iPhone and iPad users out there. This machine seems to be a reminder to all of those iOS users without a Mac that Apple makes very nice laptops as well. Many people will probably go to the Apple Store to get a glimpse of the Retina MBP and will walk out with a MBA.

This is a very aggressive play to get the computer leg of the tripod a little more in balance with the phone and tablet legs.

Dun Properly
Jun 13, 2012, 01:03 PM
Are you surprised? It's the new Tim Crook Apple, baby! Get used to it.

Ethernet Adapter -$$$$$$ Cha-Ching!
Firewire Adapter -$$$$$$ Cha-Ching!
USB Hub due to only 2 stinking ports - $$$$$$$ Cha-Ching
Want DVD Drive? I hope you have a 2nd computer to share or get ready to buy an external drive - $$$$ Cha-Ching!

Battery? Forget about it.
Upgrade your own hard drive? Forget about it.
Upgrade your own ram? Forget about it.
Want full Blu-Ray support? Forget about it.

Frankly, I'm SHOCKED they included an HDMI port. That robs them of the chance to sell your another adapter to connect it to a standard tv or limited resolution (1080p) monitor.

Overall, it's hard to say how this is a "Pro" notebook. Pro denotes professional and that means flexibility which is clearly lacking here. Apple seems to use it more as a catch phrase than an actual meaning for professionals (made obvious the day they started calling that crappy 13" model a "Pro" product. It's kind of like what happened to THX products. First they meant something and a certain certified quality level. Now they just mean someone paid Lucasfilm the license fee to use the name and thus it's now MEANINGLESS.

But there's a clear change here between Cook and Jobs. As bad as some of the hardware moves were under Steve (iMacs were already largely like this), there was at least some moves for user expansion (ram and even hard drives and once upon a time the battery), but now it's NADA. You bought a $2200 iPad Turbo with built-in keyboard and a few extra ports.

I agree with almost everything you said above, except the red portion. The other MBP is still available with identical specs (minus Retina Display). Apple is currently allowing you to choose.

rruben
Jun 13, 2012, 01:03 PM
Poeple vouching for Applecare - what happens at the end of Applecare i.e. after 2years when you are out of Applecare, your MBP's harddrive breaks down ? Yes it will break, every hard drive fails, some fails earlier other fails later. You cannot upgrade it on your own with aftermarket and Apple will charge you hand and limb for new one. I think I'll just buy regular 13" MBP and keep extra $1000 in my pocket for other more relevant upgrades. They screwed us same way with iMacs starting 2011. Hard drive?

marzer
Jun 13, 2012, 01:05 PM
Interesting. Upgradeability aside, the prices for the MBP Retina’s seem a good deal compared to the standard MBP prices.

Upgrading a MBP with same RAM, SSD and Hi-res display (though non-retina) ends up being hundreds more than a similarly equipped MBP Retina.

Renzatic
Jun 13, 2012, 01:09 PM
But. :)

Would you buy the Mazda if the bonnet of the car was welded shut, and no 3rd party garages could use their normal tools to access the cars internals, so in effect you had to use Mazda with their high prices for any repairs.

Sure would! Not being able to do anything yourself and rely totally upon the manufacturer is the future. You people just need to accept it! BUNCH OF DINOSAURS IS ALL YOU ARE! :mad:

Synchromesh
Jun 13, 2012, 01:14 PM
Then in that case the non-Retina Macbook Pro is perfect for you. Buy that instead.

P.S. I checked your other posts. It seems you are very proud of the Desktop PC you built on your own and love your ThinkPad. Based on that, it seems you just wanted to add your two cents in here without being a Mac user yourself. Just making an observation...
I had several Macbooks before including Air and 13" Macbook Pro. I also used to fix them. Went back to Thinkpad for various reasons. One of them was lack of USB 3.0 which they finally rectified over a year later. Another being absence of easy docking solutions and last but not least those godawful chicklet keyboards.

If it makes you feel any better I do own an iPhone 4S.

I wonder why they put two thunderbolt ports on it, allowing unprecedented expansion to a laptop computer. Them being greedy consumer-screwers & all :rolleyes:
Umm, because that means you'll buy more Thunderbolt stuff that's very expensive? A normal solution would be a proper docking station. But I guess a better question is why they finally went USB 3.0 when they could just stick to Thunderbolt. It did take them over a year longer than most other manufacturers.

Makman8
Jun 13, 2012, 01:16 PM
Doesn't cover wear and tear.

Depends on where you go.

zoman504
Jun 13, 2012, 01:18 PM
I love Mac's too, but let's not be naive, this is all about one thing and one thing only...$$$$$$$.

clibinarius
Jun 13, 2012, 01:19 PM
You can either have something small, or something proprietary. Not both.

Apple chose that to build custom parts so that they used as little space as possible, and were the shape and size to fit inside their laptops. Using proprietary parts, you have to use the size and shape that the third party manufacturers make. You're stuck with someone else telling you how small you can make a laptop. Apple now controls their own designs.

I'd rather have a design which is smaller, lighter, has more battery power that I USE EVERY DAY, instead of make it heavier, bigger and have less batteries for the one day out of 5 years that makes repairing it easier.

I think you got that backwards. You know what proprietary means, right?

baruch
Jun 13, 2012, 01:22 PM
Every new thing I read about the new MBP makes me glad I am not getting one. Apple really is moving to less user friendly less functional more entertainment oriented devices which is unfortunate for those of us who use these machines as actual tools, not just as toys.

Makman8
Jun 13, 2012, 01:23 PM
Hard drive?

Poeple vouching for Applecare - what happens at the end of Applecare i.e. after 2years when you are out of Applecare, your MBP's harddrive breaks down ? Yes it will break, every hard drive fails, some fails earlier other fails later. You cannot upgrade it on your own with aftermarket and Apple will charge you hand and limb for new one. I think I'll just buy regular 13" MBP and keep extra $1000 in my pocket for other more relevant upgrades. They screwed us same way with iMacs starting 2011.

You do have a valid point, but these laptops have SSD....so I think the bigger problem you are looking at with these laptops is logic board failure rather then drive failure.

killmoms
Jun 13, 2012, 01:24 PM
Overall, it's hard to say how this is a "Pro" notebook. Pro denotes professional and that means flexibility which is clearly lacking here.
No, pro denotes professional which means "someone who makes money at their craft." Can someone make things that they can sell using this machine? Yes, absolutely. Can you? Maybe you have needs that aren't met by this machine, in which case there's a whole line of more expandable MacBook Pros to suit you.

I.am.Andy
Jun 13, 2012, 01:27 PM
Interesting. Upgradeability aside, the prices for the MBP Retina’s seem a good deal compared to the standard MBP prices.

Upgrading a MBP with same RAM, SSD and Hi-res display (though non-retina) ends up being hundreds more than a similarly equipped MBP Retina.

I've just noticed that you can't upgrade the standard one to 16GB.