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MacRumors
Jun 18, 2012, 12:14 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/18/mozilla-working-on-junior-web-browser-for-ipad/)


Back in mid-2010, Mozilla released Firefox Home (http://www.macrumors.com/2010/07/15/firefox-home-hits-the-app-store/), an iOS app designed to sync users' Firefox histories, bookmarks, and open tabs from their desktops to their iOS devices. Several months later, Mozilla acknowledged (http://www.macrumors.com/2010/09/28/mozilla-no-plans-for-full-firefox-browser-on-iphone/) that it had no plans to bring a full-fledged Firefox browser to iOS, due in part to "technical and logistical restrictions" that would make it difficult to create an acceptable user experience on the platform.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/06/mozilla_junior_screenshots.jpg


While Mozilla apparently still has no desire to try to replicate Firefox on iOS, The Verge reports (http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/17/3093178/mozilla-junior-ipad-web-browser) that Mozilla has been working on a stripped-down browser known as "Junior" that is intended to simplify and improve the browsing experience on iOS. "So here comes the fun stuff," said Alex Limi as he began discussing the prototype iPad browser Mozilla has been working on for several months. "We wanted to make something entirely new. We wanted to look into how we could reinvent the browser for a new form factor," he said.Junior offers a full-screen experience for users that forgoes tabs and relies on a pair of navigation buttons at the side of the screen to access the browser's functions. Navigation is accomplished through a separate page showing recently-visited pages, bookmarks, and a unified address/search bar. Junior also supports the creation of multiple user accounts, recognizing that the iPad is frequently shared among members of a household.


Mozilla still has a fair amount of work to do on Junior, and thus it will likely not be making a public appearance for some time, but it could add another notable browsing name for iOS users to consider as Google has also been reported to be bringing Chrome to iOS (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/05/15/google-chrome-browser-coming-to-ios/).

Update: A Mozilla spokesperson has contacted MacRumors to clarify that Junior is still in the experimental stage and may never see a public release.Junior is an early-stage experimental project and is not confirmed for development by Mozilla or for a future version of Firefox. All projects and experiments at Mozilla are developed in the open to gather ideas and feedback.

Article Link: Mozilla Working on 'Junior' Web Browser for iPad (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/18/mozilla-working-on-junior-web-browser-for-ipad/)



barredfreak
Jun 18, 2012, 12:16 PM
Do whatever you want, Mozilla. Just don't call it Junior.

Mad Mac Maniac
Jun 18, 2012, 12:17 PM
until Apple allows users to change their default web browser on iOS, no other browser will ever pick up steam.

AND this is something that if Apple doesn't allow soon, I could see becoming a legal issue over the next couple years.

See: Microsoft & IE in the 90's

JimmyTheKnife
Jun 18, 2012, 12:18 PM
It would take one heck of a browser to have me give up the Atomic Web Browser. I've tried quite a few and it's the best.

AustinIllini
Jun 18, 2012, 12:20 PM
until Apple allows users to change their default web browser on iOS, no other browser will ever pick up steam.

AND this is something that if Apple doesn't allow soon, I could see becoming a legal issue over the next couple years.

See: Microsoft & IE in the 90's

Exactly. No browser serves any real purpose on iOS. Maybe one of the few things I miss on Android, but not really that much. After all, my droid would never have gotten Chrome for Android.

ProwlingTiger
Jun 18, 2012, 12:21 PM
It would take one heck of a browser to have me give up the Atomic Web Browser. I've tried quite a few and it's the best.
Ditto, though it does have its days.

Anymore, I'm switching from Mozilla on my other systems. They're just doing some things that make me go...WHY?! A separate page for navigation? Oh boy. I have full screen on Atomic and I keep my navigation in the usual area. It's there for a reason.

blackcrayon
Jun 18, 2012, 12:25 PM
Exactly. No browser serves any real purpose on iOS. Maybe one of the few things I miss on Android, but not really that much. After all, my droid would never have gotten Chrome for Android.

I disagree (though i may be biased :), I think third party browsers at a lot of functionality on iOS. You can do things with browsers like Atomic and iCab that you just can't with Safari (changing user agent, "plug-in" like javascript functions, seeing page source, downloading, uploading, lowering the brightness further from the lowest setting (great when in total darkness)).

They surely aren't as convenient as Safari or as fast, but they do offer some nice extras that Safari is missing. I expect Google will eventually make some variant of Chrome for iOS - it probably doesn't matter much if the web engine is UIWebview, as it would still let people sync their Chrome data between device and desktop. IMO the "chrome" outside of the rendering window is at least as important in making a useful browser.

1080p
Jun 18, 2012, 12:26 PM
Aren't all web browsers for iOS just a wrapper for Safari? What's the point of that?

mono1980
Jun 18, 2012, 12:28 PM
Mozilla has been working on a stripped-down browser known as "Junior" that is intended to simply and improve the browsing experience on iOS.

Really? Safari is too complex? I really don't see how it could be any simpler without it losing vital functionality.

theelysium
Jun 18, 2012, 12:33 PM
This guy is rude and unprofessional. He is also a very crappy speaker... I won't ever use this browser because of him.

----------

Do whatever you want, Mozilla. Just don't call it Junior.

Junior is also what they call their *"Firemen"!

*South Park Reference

smellalot
Jun 18, 2012, 12:33 PM
Aren't all web browsers for iOS just a wrapper for Safari? What's the point of that?

I'd love a browser that syncs my bookmarks with chrome, which I use on my Mac.
I even tried switching to safari on the Mac, but it lacks some really important features.

AppleScruff1
Jun 18, 2012, 12:34 PM
until Apple allows users to change their default web browser on iOS, no other browser will ever pick up steam.

AND this is something that if Apple doesn't allow soon, I could see becoming a legal issue over the next couple years.

See: Microsoft & IE in the 90's

But it's Apple, not Microsoft so it will be ok.

Joe-Diver
Jun 18, 2012, 12:35 PM
As much as I'd like to know more, I just can't watch that presentation...the guy's speaking and presentation skills are simply so poor, I can't take it. I'm forced to sit through these at work....not doing it here.

Thunderhawks
Jun 18, 2012, 12:36 PM
It would take one heck of a browser to have me give up the Atomic Web Browser. I've tried quite a few and it's the best.

Between Safari and Atomic = Atomic wins.

Between Atomic and Proton for the ipad = Proton wins

PROTON has flash capability (easy to invoke) and allows to watch streaming video sites that still use flash.

Easy to use too.

Safari is actually the last of my surfing choices on an ios.

While Firefox will be free I 'd consider it a wasted effort.

theelysium
Jun 18, 2012, 12:38 PM
I'd love a browser that syncs my bookmarks with chrome, which I use on my Mac.
I even tried switching to safari on the Mac, but it lacks some really important features.

Like what? I've used Safari for 6 years now and it has more features then all the browsers out there... maybe you don't know how to do what you want to?

Not being rude just saying... most computer issues or complaints are a lack of user knowledge.

Mundty
Jun 18, 2012, 12:39 PM
Mozilla makes an excellent browser that's been a staple of mine for a long time. However, I wish these guys would lay off the weed and get a speaker up there whose brain isn't completely fried.

For being one of the largest browser companies in the world, these guys have no presentation skill at all, nor do they even seem enthusiastic about their product. Their browser plugins are second to none, but as of lately it feels like they been slacking regarding features and innovation.

John.B
Jun 18, 2012, 12:41 PM
Aren't all web browsers for iOS just a wrapper for Safari? What's the point of that?

Ad blocking?

Joe-Diver
Jun 18, 2012, 12:43 PM
Not being rude just saying... most computer issues or complaints are a lack of user knowledge.

Aint that a fact.....several times I've bitched about something on here, only to be told how to do it....:o

bondjw07
Jun 18, 2012, 12:44 PM
This guy is rude and unprofessional. He is also a very crappy speaker... I won't ever use this browser because of him.
I totally agree. I can't believe that they even released this video for PR reason. I even heard him drop the F bomb, really strange to put that on the face of Mozilla.

atomicbloke
Jun 18, 2012, 12:45 PM
This will be much superior to Safari and Apple will take it off the App Store since they are afraid of legitimate competition and continue to force their customers to use inferior products.

aziatiklover
Jun 18, 2012, 12:45 PM
So they finally woke up! Sounds like how Mark said about ipad wasnt mobile enough for facebook to have an app! :rolleyes:

Dobbs2
Jun 18, 2012, 12:47 PM
Ad blocking?

Click2flash is what I use.

smellalot
Jun 18, 2012, 12:47 PM
Like what? I've used Safari for 6 years now and it has more features then all the browsers out there... maybe you don't know how to do what you want to?

Not being rude just saying... most computer issues or complaints are a lack of user knowledge.

Ok, let's hope you're right. Show me an easy way to get the CMD+1,2,...,9 feature (switching between open tabs.)
I also missed Adblock, but IIRC that's available now.

Renzatic
Jun 18, 2012, 12:47 PM
We named the dog Firefox!

...you call this archaeology?

reden
Jun 18, 2012, 12:47 PM
Cool browser, but what a painful presentation to watch man.

blackcrayon
Jun 18, 2012, 12:53 PM
Aren't all web browsers for iOS just a wrapper for Safari? What's the point of that?

They all use the UIWebView for rendering web pages (with a couple of exceptions like Opera Mini), but there is a ton of functionality outside of the rendering window that can be added. Just look through the Atomic browser or iCab menus and settings screens.

John.B
Jun 18, 2012, 12:53 PM
Click2flash is what I use.

I was talking ad blocking for an iOS browser.

mactmaster
Jun 18, 2012, 12:53 PM
I much prefer a WebKit browser on a Desktop (Safari:Mac, Chrome:Win) and stopped using Firefox altogether years ago.

That being said, on iOS I don't think browsers are able to have their own rendering engine so this will use the built in WebKit?

I don't see what novel features this could add over the available browsers other than Firefox sync for those using it on the desktop.

Dobbs2
Jun 18, 2012, 12:54 PM
Ok, let's hope you're right. Show me an easy way to get the CMD+1,2,...,9 feature (switching between open tabs.)
I also missed Adblock, but IIRC that's available now.

Click2flash

Cmd+1-9 normally open those bookmarks. If you download the safaritabswitching extension it will do what you like.

John.B
Jun 18, 2012, 12:55 PM
That being said, on iOS I don't think browsers are able to have their own rendering engine so this will use the built in WebKit?

I don't see what novel features this could add over the available browsers other than Firefox sync for those using it on the desktop.

Ad blocking?

Dobbs2
Jun 18, 2012, 12:55 PM
I was talking ad blocking for an iOS browser.

My bad. I don't run into a lot of adds on iOS safari. What sites are you going to?

John.B
Jun 18, 2012, 12:57 PM
My bad. I don't run into a lot of adds on iOS safari. What sites are you going to?

Any of the news or sports sites are the worst. ESPN is an eyesore, and their app is buggy and makes it hard to find content except for the big headlines.

Rab C
Jun 18, 2012, 12:57 PM
As much as I'd like to know more, I just can't watch that presentation...the guy's speaking and presentation skills are simply so poor, I can't take it. I'm forced to sit through these at work....not doing it here.
I tried to watch it, the first guy was sort of okay but when second guy came on I gave up.

No matter what people offer it will still be a wrapper on WebKit and to be honest Safari on iOS works just fine for me.

Manderby
Jun 18, 2012, 12:59 PM
Finally somebody publicly admits it: Tabs are evil.

Well, to each his own. I personally disabled tabs in whichever application it was possible. For me, it's so counter-intuitive.

CountBoni
Jun 18, 2012, 12:59 PM
I know that the important thing here is the technology, the browser itself, and I'm sure that very soon Apple will allow to change the default browser on iOS, specially now that an iPad/iPhone can work solely without a PC, but these blokes really need to work on their presentation skills. The browser might be fantastic, but the keynote and how they try to "sell" it are utter rubbish! Nonprofessional at all!

smellalot
Jun 18, 2012, 01:03 PM
Click2flash

Cmd+1-9 normally open those bookmarks. If you download the safaritabswitching extension it will do what you like.

Thanks, I'll try those.

nagromme
Jun 18, 2012, 01:05 PM
Really? Safari is too complex? I really don't see how it could be any simpler without it losing vital functionality.

Just because we canít think of a way to simplify doesnít mean someone else canít :) And, it could just be simple in a different way, rather than being more simple. Iím interested to see what they come up with.

vartanarsen
Jun 18, 2012, 01:07 PM
Between Safari and Atomic = Atomic wins.

Between Atomic and Proton for the ipad = Proton wins

PROTON has flash capability (easy to invoke) and allows to watch streaming video sites that still use flash.

Easy to use too.

Safari is actually the last of my surfing choices on an ios.

While Firefox will be free I 'd consider it a wasted effort.


Atomic is good for going to sites you dont want Apple knowing you're going to, where Im going via Safari, which I use for clean sites :eek:

Saladinos
Jun 18, 2012, 01:08 PM
Ad blocking?

Most web content is financed through ads. In some sense ad blocking is just as unethical as downloading pirate software.

Rab C
Jun 18, 2012, 01:10 PM
Most web content is financed through ads. In some sense ad blocking is just as unethical as downloading pirate software.
The person who uses Ad blockers will also be the person who does not click ads so don't see a problem.

Navdakilla
Jun 18, 2012, 01:12 PM
Where is chrome

CodexMonkey
Jun 18, 2012, 01:20 PM
There was the odd good idea in here, but I was way too turned off by the lacklustre and completely uninspiring presentation which appeared have been done in the local gym with posters printed on an old Color Stylewriter.

If you really want to sell millions upon millions of iPad users on a whole new concept of browser, Mozilla, then youíre gonna need to spend some money making it look like the cool thing to have. This second rate Powerpoint presentation with itís "umms", "ahhs" and "is this ons?" just donít cut it.

Unless they just mis-read something about Appleís presentation style and decided they needed to set up their own "Really Disjointed Field".

ramuman
Jun 18, 2012, 01:24 PM
Cool browser, but what a painful presentation to watch man.

There are more "ums" than actual words.

Mad-B-One
Jun 18, 2012, 01:26 PM
...is important. The best feature of Atomic (besides the gestures and full screen and privacy) is that you can mask your browser as any other meaning telling the site you visit it's a Mozilla, IE (yes, even IE 7), Safari or what else... This is important because if the metadata your iPad Safari identifies it as a "mobile" Safari, some pages automatically re-route you either to "buy our iPad App" which is still okay but sometimes even to a phone optimized page. Most of the time, you cannot go to the "normal" site from there. That doesn't happen with Atomic masked as Mozilla Firefox. If I go to a web page instead of the App, it probably has its reasons, wouldn't you think so?

Shaun, UK
Jun 18, 2012, 01:26 PM
I've had so many problems lately with Firefox that I've finally given up on it and switched to Chrome. I hope their mobile efforts are more stable than the desktop version which seems to crash almost as often as Internet Explorer. Safari might be a little dull but at least it's stable.

shurcooL
Jun 18, 2012, 01:26 PM
Seems like it's not as bad as I expected. Good job for trying something new.

Mad-B-One
Jun 18, 2012, 01:29 PM
I've had so many problems lately with Firefox that I've finally given up on it and switched to Chrome. I hope their mobile efforts are more stable than the desktop version which seems to crash almost as often as Internet Explorer. Safari might be a little dull but at least it's stable.

I had some so I switched to Nightly (http://nightly.mozilla.org/) and Waterfox (http://waterfoxproject.org/). Nightly gets the newest beta updates every night (hence the name) and Waterfox is 64Bit compiled, frequently updated and in Windows 8 ultrafast - yet still allows my addons such as Adblocker, DownItNow!, and several language correction tools to run without any turbulences.

coder12
Jun 18, 2012, 01:30 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Firefox (it's getting a bit bloaty...) but I'd be willing to give this a shot for a while. I'm not sure what they mean by "simpler" though. As if safari were complex?

mdelvecchio
Jun 18, 2012, 01:34 PM
AND this is something that if Apple doesn't allow soon, I could see becoming a legal issue over the next couple years.

See: Microsoft & IE in the 90's

er, no. you have a total misunderstanding of what took place there. in the '90s (not 90's) MS was in a position of monopoly -- users, customers, and vendors had no real alternatives other than MS/Windows. they were saddled w/ IE because MS threatened vendors w/ revoking their Windows licenses if they tried to side-load other browsers onto OEM disk images. iOS users have a RICH set of alternatives...from android, to nokia, to MS. dozens of options. iOS smartphones are not in a position of monopoly.

its their platform. they can do what they want with it until it becomes a monopoly. not likely.

medazinol
Jun 18, 2012, 01:36 PM
God, programmers have no business giving demos. That was god-awful to watch. Learn a bit from Apple guys, it doesn't take much to watch a few Stevenotes to see how it's done.
Keep up the innovation though. Some good ideas there.

dashiel
Jun 18, 2012, 01:39 PM
Thereís some really clever thinking in Junior. iPad Safari is very much an exercise figuring out how to bring desktop features to a tablet experience. Junior seems more focused on how to accomplish web browsing tasks in a tablet. Itís an important distinction.

Mad-B-One
Jun 18, 2012, 01:39 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Firefox (it's getting a bit bloaty...) but I'd be willing to give this a shot for a while. I'm not sure what they mean by "simpler" though. As if safari were complex?

I think the "simpler" refers to what others are already doing differently: Use your screen real estate wisely and use e.g. gestures for tab switches (like Atomic), offer Full Screen (Atomic as well) and - that is new - do not restart with loading all open tabs because - as mentionned - most are outdated or need logins and you might not even want to continue with the last, let's say, ten addresses you visited. The enlongated icons is a fresh idea - especially for touch devices - and might make it indeed easier to start right in... I guess something along this line... Do I make sense? :)

mdelvecchio
Jun 18, 2012, 01:41 PM
Most web content is financed through ads. In some sense ad blocking is just as unethical as downloading pirate software.

get real. most websites are so poorly designed and laden w/ ads that its necessary. my #1 Safari feature is....Reader. strips out all ads, sidebars, comments, etc and puts the article's content up front & center.

ArtOfWarfare
Jun 18, 2012, 01:42 PM
Cool browser, but what a painful presentation to watch man.

Agreed... very poor pacing (really, this whole presentation could have been done in 4 minutes. 7 tops.) Novice presenting abilities on the part of both presenters...

The browser looks a little interesting... I know what they mean by the whole tab closing issue... I definitely always feel compelled to close tabs.

mdelvecchio
Jun 18, 2012, 01:43 PM
The best feature of Atomic (besides the gestures and full screen and privacy) is that you can mask your browser as any other

browsers like this already exist on iOS. "KissMyAgent" is one.

LeGacY X
Jun 18, 2012, 01:50 PM
That presentation was awful....:(

verniesgarden
Jun 18, 2012, 02:05 PM
This guy is rude and unprofessional. He is also a very crappy speaker... I won't ever use this browser because of him.

----------





I agree the "dude" giving the presentation should be an example of why you should be professional, all the way though it's like he's never seen his product beforeÖ and damnit man you are wanting to be taken seriously put on a decent shirt

bushido
Jun 18, 2012, 02:09 PM
Most web content is financed through ads. In some sense ad blocking is just as unethical as downloading pirate software.

lol okay, i'll keep blocking those annoying bastards the same way i dont watch commercials on tv

blackpond
Jun 18, 2012, 02:11 PM
So they're making "Junior" for iPad because:

1) They wanted to do something (anything!) "different"
2) iOS is really popular and they have nothing on it

Which one of those reasons is going to benefit users?

jdavtz
Jun 18, 2012, 02:12 PM
It's nice to see some real innovation in "tab" management and it looks like their webkit wrapper has some great ideas.

Uncortunately, without Reader it might struggle to take off, regardless of how slick the UI is.

They REALLY need to get someone with some presentation skills to present the thing though! It's just painful to watch (I made it to the end, somehow). It's like they didn't even bother to prepare.

Laird Knox
Jun 18, 2012, 02:13 PM
until Apple allows users to change their default web browser on iOS, no other browser will ever pick up steam.

AND this is something that if Apple doesn't allow soon, I could see becoming a legal issue over the next couple years.

See: Microsoft & IE in the 90's

Completely different issue.

With that said I could see a similar trial if somebody makes a big enough stink about it.

mrsir2009
Jun 18, 2012, 02:19 PM
I'm waiting for a Chrome browser for iOS. Firefox has had its day, I reckon.

Mad-B-One
Jun 18, 2012, 02:22 PM
browsers like this already exist on iOS. "KissMyAgent" is one.

Yea, of course, and Atomic is another one... that's why so many here like Atomic. Who said it doesn't exist? :rolleyes:

Mad Mac Maniac
Jun 18, 2012, 02:22 PM
its their platform. they can do what they want with it until it becomes a monopoly. not likely.

Considering how this article is talking about the iPad, and the iPad pretty much does have a monopoly on tablets at the moment.... It'll be interesting to see how Win8 does in this space. But if the iPad continues as it has been, and the tablet continues to grow exponentially and be seen more and more as a replacement for traditional PC's for many people, I can easily see this becoming the same issue.

Mad-B-One
Jun 18, 2012, 02:29 PM
Considering how this article is talking about the iPad, and the iPad pretty much does have a monopoly on tablets at the moment.... It'll be interesting to see how Win8 does in this space. But if the iPad continues as it has been, and the tablet continues to grow exponentially and be seen more and more as a replacement for traditional PC's for many people, I can easily see this becoming the same issue.

I can't agree more! I wonder as well how long Apple can block Flash this way. It's basically the same issue as soon as they are forced to open their device somewhere for other browsers - because I'm pretty sure they cannot block them just because they compile Flash as well... and once e.g. the European Union forced Apple to open the device to 3rd party browsers, the next philosophical pillar (no Flash) will fall as well.

theelysium
Jun 18, 2012, 02:31 PM
Ok, let's hope you're right. Show me an easy way to get the CMD+1,2,...,9 feature (switching between open tabs.)
I also missed Adblock, but IIRC that's available now.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=42951

I checked the Safari KB shortcuts and it didn't show up in the list, but I use Control + tab to move through the tabs and Shift + Control + Tab to do it in reverse. That is actually not on the shortcut page for some reason, but it's there.

I can't pick a tab though I've been trying different keystrokes. Oh, Wait I have MT Lion... just a sec...nope just the tab on that version too.


You can also get adblocker from here http://safariadblock.com/ and http://download.cnet.com/Safari-AdBlock/3000-2378_4-10793198.html

Go to Apple.com/feedback and tell them to add it.

Wait here is a plugin that will add the feature: https://github.com/rs/SafariTabSwitching

Tada! :D

Frobozz
Jun 18, 2012, 02:38 PM
I really liked the demo. A lot of their insight about how generally poor the UX is for Safari on iOS is spot-on.

I love the simplicity of side-accessed thumb menus. And, yes, I do UX for a living. So I know how hard it is to actually break new ground without users understanding basic paradigms you're employing. That's where really good UX works, though.

Kudos to the Mozilla team!

----------

Yea, of course, and Atomic is another one... that's why so many here like Atomic. Who said it doesn't exist? :rolleyes:

Well, I think it's much more likely for the big 4 to release a new UX for iPad than it is for a fifth wheel. Almost nobody seeks out alternative web browsers except advanced users. I've never heard of these other browsers, though now I will certainly check them out.

Zaid
Jun 18, 2012, 02:42 PM
Lots of posts seem to be dismissing this new browser because

The presentation/presenters were bad (which they were)
All non safari browsers are just wrappers for webkit (which they are)


But I think that kind of misses the point. For me at least, there seem to be quite a few cool ideas in this new browser, especially since this is just a prototype.

I don't like mozilla on the desktop, but what i found pretty cool in this browser was:

The whole idea of browsing profiles. I'd love to be able to let a friend or family member use my iPad to browse the net, without worrying about what's in my history
The idea of containers which combines history and tabs, especially if they implement that idea of 'pinching' or 'zooming' a container to see all the pages related to a site taht you've visited. Might work kind of like photo albums I'm assuming. This would make it pretty easy to find something you were looking at maybe a few days ago
The immersive full screen (ok, i know, not exactly new, but i like how they've implemented it, without menus and toolbars that auto appear when your finger gets to a certain point on the screen.
The trays for storing favourites seem pretty cool. Continues the paradigm for launching apps from the OS


Obviously like the guys said, there are still several things missing, but it's certainly a promising start.

pppan
Jun 18, 2012, 02:45 PM
most of you guys seem to be fixated on the _form_ of the presentation, ignoring the fact that this is an internal demo, not a keynote or something.

https://air.mozilla.org/product-design-at-mozilla/

Öthat's how mozilla operates. thankfully so!

Mad Mac Maniac
Jun 18, 2012, 02:48 PM
I can't agree more! I wonder as well how long Apple can block Flash this way. It's basically the same issue as soon as they are forced to open their device somewhere for other browsers - because I'm pretty sure they cannot block them just because they compile Flash as well... and once e.g. the European Union forced Apple to open the device to 3rd party browsers, the next philosophical pillar (no Flash) will fall as well.

Well two things.

Apple can't be FORCED to work with Adobe to include flash natively in safari. The worst that I can see would be forcing Apple to let browsers on the app store that can use flash... but aren't there already apps that do this? Is there honestly anything that is stopping Adobe from making their own iOS browser that is fully flash compatible?

Secondly, flash is already on it's way out the door. By the time anything could have legally happened to force flash on the iPad, it will be dead in the water. So the point will be moot.

Mad-B-One
Jun 18, 2012, 02:51 PM
Well, I think it's much more likely for the big 4 to release a new UX for iPad than it is for a fifth wheel. Almost nobody seeks out alternative web browsers except advanced users. I've never heard of these other browsers, though now I will certainly check them out.

There is no other browsers on iOS. The only one is Safari. "Junior" - or whatever Mozilla will call it - will be no different. It won't be a browser but just a mask for Safari unless Apple decides (or is forced to) change its policy. You don't have to be an advanced user to find limitations in the mobile version of Safari that make you look for a better mask. Atomic has Atomic Lite (as do others) with less features so you can explore for free if you like what they make out of the Safari engine. I just looked for "browser" in the AppStore and the one with by far the most ratings (and 4.5 stars) is Atomic - so, it's not an App for techies at all. About 2600 ratings is pretty good, actually.

Menneisyys2
Jun 18, 2012, 02:57 PM
I disagree (though i may be biased :), I think third party browsers at a lot of functionality on iOS. You can do things with browsers like Atomic and iCab that you just can't with Safari (changing user agent, "plug-in" like javascript functions, seeing page source, downloading, uploading, lowering the brightness further from the lowest setting (great when in total darkness)).

BTW, the vast majority of these can be done with the, otherwise, speed-wise, far superior Safari with add-on scriptlets on non-jailbroken devices (zoom in, translation, page source etc.)

And on jailbroken devices, a lot more can be done:

- U-A change (FREE)
- upload ($2)
- download manager (currently not working on iOS 5, though)
- full screen ($1.30)

and even having almost exactly the same external keyboard shortcuts as with a desktop Mac, except for Cmd + 1...9 tab switching with BeeKeyboard - see http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=15072049&posted=1#post15072049

jonnysods
Jun 18, 2012, 02:58 PM
It would be so cool if you could tell iOS what browsers to set as default. That would make my copy and paste life less busy.

Mad-B-One
Jun 18, 2012, 03:02 PM
Well two things.

Apple can't be FORCED to work with Adobe to include flash natively in safari. The worst that I can see would be forcing Apple to let browsers on the app store that can use flash... but aren't there already apps that do this? Is there honestly anything that is stopping Adobe from making their own iOS browser that is fully flash compatible?

Secondly, flash is already on it's way out the door. By the time anything could have legally happened to force flash on the iPad, it will be dead in the water. So the point will be moot.

First, yes, Apple can be forced to do something. The European Union forced Microsoft to unbundle Windows and IE due to pressing on an open market be preinstallation of their browser. They didn't charge or anything, but they limited competition by using their monopoly on the PC platform. Something similar could happen to Apple because they dominate the Tablet Market. (I believe MS actually did have to pay a fine close to $1Bn because they didn't comply in time) I'm not saying it will or it is likely, I'm just saying you are wrong if you think it cannot. I never said they have to support Flash in Safari though. I stated they might be forced to let other browsers run on the iPad - meaning not using Safari and just plug a mask over it but be a "real" browser with own engine - and that would be way more likely that Apple is forced to do that than the integration of Flash into Safari.

To your second: As long as web developers use Flash - and there are still some free countries out there where you can do what you want - it is not dead. I personally don't care weather there will be a Flash-free Web out there one day, I just think it will not be. See how many PCs still run on IE 7 giving the web devs a headache each day. Also, old content might never change. There are tons of reasons why it will never go away...

mertyz
Jun 18, 2012, 03:15 PM
I'm so glad their coding skills are much better than their presentation skills :)

Mad-B-One
Jun 18, 2012, 03:20 PM
1, iCab Mobile and a lot of other browsers are also capable of this.

...

"Simpler" means programmers aren't allowed to do almost anything, "thanks" to Apple's sometimes pathetic restrictions. (One of the most pathetic restrictions is not allowing 3rd party developers use the fast scrolling of UIWebView for two years; this is why all UIWebView-based browsers scroll so stutteringly.)

To your first point, I know that others do that as well, I just have Atomic so I don't have a need for other browsers like iCab.

To your second point I quote here, I agree that it seems silly sometimes on what the restrictions are but that is not my problem to be honest. I don't jailbreak because I would fear that malware could make it onto my phone since I don't know the people programming the jailbreaks and they won't be liable for anything... plus, I don't need any features I don't have that bad that I would risk the warranty etc. After all, most important is that my devices work. The Apple extended warranty takes care of that - as long as I don't mess with a jailbreak. :cool:

class77
Jun 18, 2012, 03:26 PM
Between Safari and Atomic = Atomic wins.

Between Atomic and Proton for the ipad = Proton wins

PROTON has flash capability (easy to invoke) and allows to watch streaming video sites that still use flash.

Easy to use too.

Safari is actually the last of my surfing choices on an ios.

While Firefox will be free I 'd consider it a wasted effort.
iSwifter is much smoother than Photon when using Flash sites. After I found iSwifter, I never used Photon again.

Menneisyys2
Jun 18, 2012, 03:28 PM
To your first point, I know that others do that as well, I just have Atomic so I don't have a need for other browsers like iCab.

To your second point I quote here, I agree that it seems silly sometimes on what the restrictions are but that is not my problem to be honest. I don't jailbreak because I would fear that malware could make it onto my phone since I don't know the people programming the jailbreaks and they won't be liable for anything... plus, I don't need any features I don't have that bad that I would risk the warranty etc. After all, most important is that my devices work. The Apple extended warranty takes care of that - as long as I don't mess with a jailbreak. :cool:

OT:

Malware won't get to your JB'n iDevice if you only install well-known and tested apps from trusted Cydia sources. (And, if you don't install OpenSSH - which is rarely needed for non-hackers/devs -, noone can even connect to your iDevice from the outside world.)

Also, if you install for example Firewall iP, you can always track which app connects to which host / port - this way, you can be absolutely sure there's no malware on your phone.

(Of course, I don't want to force you to JB. I just find JB tweaks very cool and couldn't imagine my iOS life without them - they make my life MUCH easier by, say, letting me to save complete Web pages from Safari; controlling it via an extrernal keyboard as if it was the desktop version, using a windowed environment (Quasar), auto-record Skype calls, easily record demo videos of the screen with Display Recorder etc.)

Mac-Rumours
Jun 18, 2012, 03:30 PM
I'm so glad their coding skills are much better than their presentation skills :)

You mean the browser won't activate a fire alarm after 20 minutes of usage like the presentation?

vartanarsen
Jun 18, 2012, 03:30 PM
To your first point, I know that others do that as well, I just have Atomic so I don't have a need for other browsers like iCab.

To your second point I quote here, I agree that it seems silly sometimes on what the restrictions are but that is not my problem to be honest. I don't jailbreak because I would fear that malware could make it onto my phone since I don't know the people programming the jailbreaks and they won't be liable for anything... plus, I don't need any features I don't have that bad that I would risk the warranty etc. After all, most important is that my devices work. The Apple extended warranty takes care of that - as long as I don't mess with a jailbreak. :cool:

huh? your logic is as flawed sir. Any one knows a simple restore in iTunes wipes away Jailbreak. Just simply restore before heading to Apple geniuses for any issues.

Im so tire of people having misconceptions about JB.

1. Voids warranty......No, it doesnt. Restore in iTunes as stated above.
2. Eats battery and resoources.....no it doesnt, if you have the right Cydia apps like Backgrounder (which can be set to terminate all processes as you close an app)
3. Opens up to malware--no, it doesnt, if you are smart about what to install (just like on your mac)...I'll install SBSettings for quick settings tweak with a swipe...I wont install some random 3rd party cydia. Furthermore, JBing actually allowed a Cydia patch to close an exploit while non-JBen devises were vulnerable (this was about 1.5 years ago I think)

Im sure other here are JB fans, please back me up on some more items.

Mad-B-One
Jun 18, 2012, 03:36 PM
huh? your logic is as flawed sir. Any one knows a simple restore in iTunes wipes away Jailbreak. Just simply restore before heading to Apple geniuses for any issues.


huh? your logic is as flawed sir. Doesn't work if the device doesn't turn on, does it? What do you do then? Or it hangs somwhere where it won't do whatever you want but clearly shows it's jailbroken ... did someone mess with the kernel??? :eek:

Murphy's Law: There is something that can go wrong, odds are, it WILL go wrong. The unlucky one will be me - I know my luck. :(

faroZ06
Jun 18, 2012, 03:53 PM
OK, as long as it's not slow and annoying like the PC version. Sometimes I suspect that IE 9 is faster than FireFox but still worse for other reasons.

Mad-B-One
Jun 18, 2012, 04:20 PM
Statistically, people have been able to restore the factory firmware in 99% of the cases. Even when your device seemingly doesn't switch in, it can STILL be restored to an official firmware as the DFU mode is still accessible to iTunes.

Statistics also teach us that in quantum mechanics, things that are physically not explainable, will still occur. Like a phone that doesn't do anything but starting up and showing a unix prompt. As I stated, that might be impossible to all your laws of "You can fix it with iTunes!" but the quantum-Murphy law will show the DOS-like prompt right there in the Apple Store at the Genius Bar when I ask a somewhat friendly Apple employee why I cannot connect to iTunes with my device. Now, you might be able to do whatever you like so much with your JB iPhone and iPad, there is just not much that would improve my experiance to the point that it is worth the risk for me. I'm not saying you shouldn't jailbreak. Do whatever you want. For me, it isn't worth it as it isn't for all the tech geeks out there who know how to do it and what the risks and benefits are and still don't do it. Even if you trust the providers/certificators for the JB Apps, I don't because I don't know who will be behind them tomorrow.

M1chbeck
Jun 18, 2012, 04:31 PM
i love how all of you guys are just bashing the rethorical skills while none of you realize the true potential and underlying idea of what is presented.
Btw, Opera has always innovated the browser market and now even Mozilla has recognized/public accepted this.

theelysium
Jun 18, 2012, 05:01 PM
While not specifically ad blocking, you can still do IP blocking on JB'n devices with the absolutely great app "Firewall iP" ( http://www.iphonelife.com/blog/87/how-you-can-disable-browsing-any-non-company-non-children-etc-website-your-idevice ). There may be specific ad blockers in the Cydia store too.

You can also get adblocker from here http://safariadblock.com/ and http://download.cnet.com/Safari-AdBlock/3000-2378_4-10793198.html

And there is an adblocker here https://extensions.apple.com/ it's an extention add on.

Mad-B-One
Jun 18, 2012, 05:03 PM
i love how all of you guys are just bashing the rethorical skills while none of you realize the true potential and underlying idea of what is presented.
Btw, Opera has always innovated the browser market and now even Mozilla has recognized/public accepted this.

Did you just jump to the last page, read some posts and got your opinion or did you read all prior posts? Just wondering... because I read something else than you did - at least I came to a different conclusion. There are quite a few who lookd behind the obviously bad presentation and saw quite some potential... :cool:

And what browser maket are you writing about? On Mac/PC? I think Opera did some innovation but so did Netscape/Mozilla - and quite a lot of it. Opera on iOS is not a true browser...

tigress666
Jun 18, 2012, 05:11 PM
due in part to "technical and logistical restrictions" that would make it difficult to create an acceptable user experience on the platform.


I just had to snark this...

Ok, fine, Mozilla, then please also make an acceptable user experience on my Mac.

rpenzinger
Jun 18, 2012, 05:12 PM
send these guys to toastmasters. Gives you an appreciation for what a great speaker Steve Jobs was.

CplBadboy
Jun 18, 2012, 05:13 PM
Cool looking browser and i totally get it. Tabs are outdated now. Firefox could have something good here. A new approach to browsing and Im looking forward to using it. I know there presenting skills are questionable but nobody's perfect!

tigress666
Jun 18, 2012, 05:14 PM
It would take one heck of a browser to have me give up the Atomic Web Browser. I've tried quite a few and it's the best.

I personally haven't found any I like better than Perfect Web Browser.

mactmaster
Jun 18, 2012, 05:38 PM
Ad blocking?

Some existing browsers already do that. Like Mercury browser which I have on my iPhone, it has Adblock option.

sekazi
Jun 18, 2012, 06:10 PM
very bad presentation
-F-bomb dropped 2 times
-More Ums than I can count
-Dressed Unprofessionally
-Fire alarm that causes the presentation to end

As a browser it looks great. I do not want a fully gesture based browser and I do not like how Safari works. They make a lot of great points and they seem to solve a lot of them.

I have been using Firefox since its inception and still there is no browser that works as good.

John.B
Jun 18, 2012, 06:22 PM
Some existing browsers already do that. Like Mercury browser which I have on my iPhone, it has Adblock option.

True, but unfortunately there is no way to have Mercury (or Atomic Web) function as the default browser in iOS. Even apps like Tweetbot that can hand off a link to a web browser don't/won't/can't hand off to an alternate browser other than Mobile Safari.

Eso
Jun 18, 2012, 06:51 PM
Finally somebody publicly admits it: Tabs are evil.

Well, to each his own. I personally disabled tabs in whichever application it was possible. For me, it's so counter-intuitive.

Full-screen mode and tabs (two mutually exclusive features) got into a fight 7 or 8 years ago - full-screen mode got it's ass kicked.

Why anyone would want to bring it back is beyond me. Microsoft is doing the same with metro IE.

gmalone
Jun 18, 2012, 07:00 PM
"difficult to create an acceptable user experience on the platform"

I can already tell you that Mozilla will not create a memorable browser for the iPad.

mtnDewFTW
Jun 18, 2012, 08:10 PM
It was hard to enjoy watching the demonstration of what could potentially be a great product because the speakers were so bad at presenting it. A whole bunch of 'ums' isn't very professional. It's as if they didn't even think of what they were going to say before the demo. Very repetitive also. I'll just wait until the actual demo shows up on the mozilla website.

cb911
Jun 18, 2012, 08:14 PM
Sounds like a good idea for a browser, I'll definitely give it a look when available.

And no, public speaking is not something that most people are good at. Thanks to everyone who pointed out how many "um's" and other mistakes you saw. :rolleyes:

ekdor
Jun 18, 2012, 09:05 PM
As much as I'd like to know more, I just can't watch that presentation...the guy's speaking and presentation skills are simply so poor, I can't take it. I'm forced to sit through these at work....not doing it here.

Yea I gave up about a quarter in. Was just about pulling my hair out. Are those two the best they can come up with to do a demonstration. If your top developers can't speak publicly get a pro speaker to do it. After all it's only a demonstration. If a developer is required to do the presentation then they have a lot more to do before the juniors get their hands on it. Maybe management have no confidence in it and left the guys pushing it to take the risk of association. Anyway it's a bad look.

Menneisyys2
Jun 19, 2012, 12:15 AM
True, but unfortunately there is no way to have Mercury (or Atomic Web) function as the default browser in iOS. Even apps like Tweetbot that can hand off a link to a web browser don't/won't/can't hand off to an alternate browser other than Mobile Safari.

Jb and install Browser Changer. Works great.

Albright
Jun 19, 2012, 06:33 AM
Ad blocking?

If you turn off JavaScript in Safari (under the Settings app), not only does it greatly speed up page loading and rendering, it effectively blocks most ads, plus many other JavaScript-powered annoyances like Disqus. There's occasionally some collateral damage - some sites seem to use JS to place YouTube videos, and I don't know, maybe you like Disqus or some reason - but for the most part it makes a world of difference, especially on my older iPad 1. In fact, the inability to turn off JavaScript in other browsers is why I continue to use Safari (apparently it's not possible for third-party devs to disable it in their apps).

dannys1
Jun 19, 2012, 09:03 AM
Thanks, I'll try those.

FYI - Click2Flash has been superseded by Click2Plugin, but if you want ad blocking - AdBlock is the way to go - it clears a lot more than just flash out of pages.

John.B
Jun 19, 2012, 09:35 AM
Jb and install Browser Changer. Works great.

I get why some people jailbreak their phones, but I'm not really interested in going that route. And it's not just the iPad, but the iPhone as well.

At minimum, it would be nice to have apps like Tweetbot have a configurable browser setting to choose which browser was used to open shortened URL links.

If you turn off JavaScript in Safari (under the Settings app), not only does it greatly speed up page loading and rendering, it effectively blocks most ads, plus many other JavaScript-powered annoyances like Disqus. There's occasionally some collateral damage - some sites seem to use JS to place YouTube videos, and I don't know, maybe you like Disqus or some reason - but for the most part it makes a world of difference, especially on my older iPad 1. In fact, the inability to turn off JavaScript in other browsers is why I continue to use Safari (apparently it's not possible for third-party devs to disable it in their apps).

An interesting idea. I'll try that later today, just to see how it works.

Thinking this through further, it seems like a VPN-based solution could have a DNS-based blacklist, similar to how the ad blocker subscriptions work? Hmm...

Joe-Diver
Jun 19, 2012, 11:14 AM
And no, public speaking is not something that most people are good at. Thanks to everyone who pointed out how many "um's" and other mistakes you saw. :rolleyes:

Not a problem. I'm happy to do it quite frequently.

It's called being a "professional"...and yes, developers especially should have it to present their products. Otherwise, they won't be taken seriously.

I've been active in Toastmasters since my father took me to meetings as a very young child. I gave my first speech to a banquet hall of 300+ at 9 years old. I've been involved with Toastmasters on and off through high school, college, and in my professional corporate career.

Effective speaking and presentation skills are essential. I don't blame the developer here completely....no doubt he should have been better prepared and rehearsed....but the main fault is with his management allowing this dismal presentation to have occurred.

nofear1az
Jun 19, 2012, 11:58 AM
Finally somebody publicly admits it: Tabs are evil.

Well, to each his own. I personally disabled tabs in whichever application it was possible. For me, it's so counter-intuitive.

and that's just you! I personally can't live without them. I find it cumbersome without tabs. Too many windows open is a PItA. Too each is their own

coder12
Jun 19, 2012, 12:07 PM
I think the "simpler" refers to what others are already doing differently: Use your screen real estate wisely and use e.g. gestures for tab switches (like Atomic), offer Full Screen (Atomic as well) and - that is new - do not restart with loading all open tabs because - as mentionned - most are outdated or need logins and you might not even want to continue with the last, let's say, ten addresses you visited. The enlongated icons is a fresh idea - especially for touch devices - and might make it indeed easier to start right in... I guess something along this line... Do I make sense? :)

Ahh yes, I do see what you mean! Although I feel it is only fair to mention that iOS 6 safari supports fullscreen ;)

nofear1az
Jun 19, 2012, 12:24 PM
There is no other browsers on iOS. The only one is Safari. "Junior" - or whatever Mozilla will call it - will be no different. It won't be a browser but just a mask for Safari unless Apple decides (or is forced to) change its policy. You don't have to be an advanced user to find limitations in the mobile version of Safari that make you look for a better mask. Atomic has Atomic Lite (as do others) with less features so you can explore for free if you like what they make out of the Safari engine. I just looked for "browser" in the AppStore and the one with by far the most ratings (and 4.5 stars) is Atomic - so, it's not an App for techies at all. About 2600 ratings is pretty good, actually.

Dolphin Web Browser on the iOS is very good and just about 5 stars on it as well. You should check it out.

InsertRelevant
Jun 19, 2012, 01:12 PM
"Junior is an early-stage experimental project and is not confirmed for development by Mozilla or for a future version of Firefox. All projects and experiments at Mozilla are developed in the open to gather ideas and feedback."
I don't think they wanted this presentation for public view the meeting is very laid back in informal, there just throwing ideas around and quite like it, also there speaking in english and its a informal due and who knows there where prob up all night.

John.B
Jun 19, 2012, 02:50 PM
You mean the browser won't activate a fire alarm after 20 minutes of usage like the presentation?

I have a few colleagues that could use an "activate a fire alarm after 20 minutes of usage" feature for their presentations. :p

pauldesimone
Jun 19, 2012, 08:10 PM
I leave macrumors open all day. I love it when I come back to my office to hear that gawd-afwul presenter yapping away! Apparently that video has a time delay that makes it start playing at some random point after the page is loaded. I either have to refresh the page, STOP the video or close macrumors to make it stop. I shouldn't have to make it stop - it just shouldn't START on it's own!!!:mad:

altaic
Jun 20, 2012, 11:41 AM
That video is obnoxious; now macrumors no longer stays open on my computer. Best pick video players more carefully.

Saladinos
Jun 20, 2012, 11:47 AM
lol okay, i'll keep blocking those annoying bastards the same way i dont watch commercials on tv

It doesn't matter if you pay attention to it or not; if you block the ad, the site owner doesn't get paid for the ad impression.

I don't like them either, but I don't doubt that's the reason Apple won't build it in to Safari. Content providers already struggle monetizing web traffic. Unless you want to pay subscriptions to everything and lose the easy access to breadth of information that you currently have on the web, it's important to support ads.

Dave00
Jun 20, 2012, 01:06 PM
Hey admins/mods - this is super flippin' annoying - am I the only one where this video auto-plays every time they load MacRumors? I couldn't figure out where the noise was coming from for the longest time. Didn't realize it was MacRumors because the video is waaaaay down on the front page.

FWIW, I'm on Firefox on a PC at work. Maybe that's the problem. ;)

John.B
Jun 20, 2012, 02:22 PM
Hey admins/mods - this is super flippin' annoying - am I the only one where this video auto-plays every time they load MacRumors? I couldn't figure out where the noise was coming from for the longest time. Didn't realize it was MacRumors because the video is waaaaay down on the front page.

FWIW, I'm on Firefox on a PC at work. Maybe that's the problem. ;)

Are you running FlashBlock?

Sackvillenb
Jun 20, 2012, 03:49 PM
I do hope they release this eventually. I quite like Safari actually, but I find it too unstable at times. Some crashing is acceptable to me on a computer... but my iPad and especially my girlfriend's iPad crashes far too often with Safari... not cool... especially since stability is one of the reasons I moved towards Apple products! I'm hoping iOS 6 won't be as buggy as iOS 5. And I realize that others have not had this issue, but I can only directly comment on my own experiences with ios...