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MacRumors
Jun 19, 2012, 08:30 AM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/19/teardown-of-new-macbook-pros-retina-display-reveals-engineering-marvel/)


Last week, the teardown experts at iFixit took a look (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/13/teardown-of-retina-macbook-pro-finds-low-repairability-with-custom-components/) at the new Retina MacBook Pro, noting how Apple used a number of innovations first deployed in the MacBook Air to reduce the machine's thickness but in the process hampered users' ability to repair and upgrade components.

As it notes on its blog (http://ifixit.org/2771/inside-the-retina-display/), iFixit has now taken apart the Retina display itself (http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Retina-Display-Teardown/9493/1) to further examine the steps Apple took to mount the breakthrough 2880x1800 display within the thin lid of the notebook.The Retina display is an engineering marvel. Its LCD is essentially the entire display assembly. Rather than sandwich an LCD panel between a back case and a piece of glass in front, Apple used the aluminum case itself as the frame for the LCD panel and used the LCD as the front glass. They've managed to pack five times as many pixels as the last model in a display that's actually a fraction of a millimeter thinner. And since there's no front glass, glare is much less of an issue.http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/06/retina_macbook_pro_display_teardown_1.jpg


With the LCD so tightly integrated into the display assembly, iFixit actually broke the LCD in the process of trying to disassemble it, noting that anyone looking to replace their display would need to replace the entire assembly instead of trying to swap in a new LCD panel.

The teardown documents the full range of features used to keep the display slim and light while delivering crisp images on the ultra-high resolution screen, including routing of cables through hinges, 48 LEDs at the bottom of the screen to light the display, and various diffuser, prism, and polarizing sheets to generate the screen's images.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/06/retina_macbook_pro_display_teardown_2.jpg


The new Retina MacBook Pro remains in high demand amid tight supplies, with shipping estimates for new orders through Apple's online store remaining at the 3-4 week figure reached less than two days (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/13/retina-macbook-pro-shipping-estimates-slip-to-3-4-weeks-as-initial-shipments-begin/) after the machine debuted.

Article Link: Teardown of New MacBook Pro's Retina Display Reveals 'Engineering Marvel' (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/19/teardown-of-new-macbook-pros-retina-display-reveals-engineering-marvel/)



pawelthegreat
Jun 19, 2012, 08:34 AM
Too bad so many of the owners won't have a clue of this marvel.

Oh well...not that they need to...'it just works' is good enough

NStocks
Jun 19, 2012, 08:35 AM
As there is no front glass, how is the screen 'protected'? I mean, the previous generations have glass to almost prevent damage from scratches etc. Does it still have a glass element to it or is it more lift a standard LCD 'finish'?

FFArchitect
Jun 19, 2012, 08:35 AM
RIP MacBook Pro Retina (x1).

gto55
Jun 19, 2012, 08:35 AM
who produces the screen ?
Samsung ? Sharp ? another company ?

Abazigal
Jun 19, 2012, 08:36 AM
Sounds cool, but I have absolutely no idea what was just said. :)

kjs862
Jun 19, 2012, 08:39 AM
Man I can't wait to see the 13" Macbook Pro Retina.

sammich
Jun 19, 2012, 08:41 AM
I know it's not just me...but the 'a laser engraved internal use code (http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/GGjmUQwXwlrFJAUy.huge)' isn't aligned properly.

*goes and breaks his RMBP display to make sure his code is etched properly or is asking for a new one*

Kidding...or am I?

s2dio
Jun 19, 2012, 08:44 AM
RIP MacBook Pro Retina (x1).

why RIP? They will assemble this macbook back as it was :)

ArcaneDevice
Jun 19, 2012, 08:46 AM
why RIP? They will assemble this macbook back as it was :)

No they won't. If you read the text it says they broke the panel during disassembly.

Magnum Opus
Jun 19, 2012, 08:47 AM
why RIP? They will assemble this macbook back as it was :)

"iFixit actually broke the LCD in the process of trying to disassemble it"

mohsy90
Jun 19, 2012, 08:48 AM
why RIP? They will assemble this macbook back as it was :)

If you read the article and even the entire ifixit disassembly guide, they mentioned that they actually ended up breaking the LCD panel while trying to pry it off. I don't think ifixit has ever broken an LCD!! :eek:

840quadra
Jun 19, 2012, 08:49 AM
As there is no front glass, how is the screen 'protected'? I mean, the previous generations have glass to almost prevent damage from scratches etc. Does it still have a glass element to it or is it more lift a standard LCD 'finish'?

Not sure if you looked at the linked article before posting, however it says the following on iFixit's teardown.

We need to clarify this before continuing with the teardown; Apple did not design and build a 1.5 mm thin LCD panel. They did, however, do something exceptional with the design of this display: rather than sandwich an LCD panel between a back case and a front glass, they used the aluminum case itself as the frame for the LCD panel and used the LCD as the front glass.

Mr. Retrofire
Jun 19, 2012, 08:49 AM
Hmm, so when apple try to make a display that actually provides the glare of a matte display...
The AG screens on the 15" and 17" MBPs have no glare.

mTofu
Jun 19, 2012, 08:50 AM
AppleCare never looked more attractive.

Big-TDI-Guy
Jun 19, 2012, 08:51 AM
Dear iFixit, next time around, get yourself unwaxed dental floss, and use that to "saw" through the adhesive / tape. Small enough to fit in there, cheap enough to discard, flexible to get around stuff, strong enough to cut RTVs and tapes. ;)

adildacoolset
Jun 19, 2012, 08:51 AM
The AG screens on the 15" and 17" MBPs have no glare.

You can't have no glare. They minimized it until it was almost nothing

DougB541
Jun 19, 2012, 08:52 AM
nicely constructed....impossible to replace if there are issues.

But very cool.

Hakone
Jun 19, 2012, 08:54 AM
Gotta love technological innovation. I'm anxious to see what's coming down the pipeline in the next few years.

mobi
Jun 19, 2012, 08:56 AM
Its getting tight in there...

Dun Properly
Jun 19, 2012, 08:58 AM
Hmm, so when apple try to make a display that actually provides the glare of a matte display and the quality of a glossy display, they have to go to this measure , people say "evil apple make it non-replaceable" and when they make a replaceable one, people say "aah the glare" or "Why pay $50 for anti-glare?" Haters gonna hate.

It doesn't. It is still beautiful though.

bdavis89
Jun 19, 2012, 08:58 AM
Seems like it common sense rather than a marvel...I guess technology just didn't have the capabilities until now?

OtherJesus
Jun 19, 2012, 08:59 AM
The AG screens on the 15" and 17" MBPs have no glare.
You may claim its "no glare", but the anti-glare displays do in fact "reflect" light that causes a slight glare. Obviously nowhere near the glossy display...but still ;)

rei101
Jun 19, 2012, 08:59 AM
Yes... Apple Care was the first thing that came to my mind.

gnasher729
Jun 19, 2012, 09:05 AM
nicely constructed....impossible to replace if there are issues.

But very cool.

Easy to replace if you know what you are doing. iFixit tried to remove the glass from the LCD screen, and broke it because the glass they tried to remove was actually the LCD screen itself. Now they figured out that there is no glass, they won't do that a second time.

Even if it is impossible to remove the display without breaking it, why would you do that anyway? You only remove a display that is already broken, and then you put in a non-broken display. I can't see anything that says you can't put in a display without breaking it.

Mad Mac Maniac
Jun 19, 2012, 09:05 AM
so is it a Sharp IGZO display?

togg
Jun 19, 2012, 09:07 AM
Mmm, what is the price asked by apple to replace the entire screen?

kockgunner
Jun 19, 2012, 09:13 AM
As there is no front glass, how is the screen 'protected'? I mean, the previous generations have glass to almost prevent damage from scratches etc. Does it still have a glass element to it or is it more lift a standard LCD 'finish'?

I had the same question until I went to the Apple store, You kind of have to see it to understand.

The screen has no covering glass so when you press hard enough, the LCD ripples like a traditional desktop LCD monitor. However, it is harder than a traditional unprotected LCD so it kind of feels like there is still glass there and requires more pressure to get that ripple effect. I've never seen anything constructed like it and I'm really interested in how they made an LCD with without glass still look like an edge to edge black surface.

I'm also assuming the lack of cover glass is the reason why it doesn't say "Macbook Pro" on the bezel.

By the way, the screen looks amazing :)

H2SO4
Jun 19, 2012, 09:15 AM
Too bad so many of the owners won't have a clue of this marvel.

Oh well...not that they need to...'it just works' is good enough

The point you make is spot on. I think this goes for the population in general. Whether it be cars/computers or microwave ovens most people want something that just works and are not the least bit interested in the engineering it takes to get there, and why should they be if they don't want to?

Thex1138
Jun 19, 2012, 09:19 AM
This is what excellence in engineering is all about. :apple:

lifeinhd
Jun 19, 2012, 09:27 AM
Hmm, so when apple try to make a display that actually provides the glare of a matte display and the quality of a glossy display, they have to go to this measure , people say "evil apple make it non-replaceable" and when they make a replaceable one, people say "aah the glare" or "Why pay $50 for anti-glare?" Haters gonna hate.

My 2006 MacBook Pro says it's possible to make a quality matte replaceable display that doesn't cost $50 extra.

That said, there's no way I can hate on a thinner display with 4x the pixels ;)

jmoore5196
Jun 19, 2012, 09:33 AM
Another forum member posted in an ongoing MBP-R related thread that he was returning his MBP-R precisely because the display was an integral element and could not be swapped out or replaced.

The poster railed against "locked down" design ... a concern I cannot understand and do not share.

As iFixit noted, the retina display is an elegant marvel. While I don't imagine the Mac mini or iMac will be "locked down" anytime soon, that's clearly the direction the laptop line is taking.

I guess there will always be users who fancy themselves system engineers and cannot resist "screwdriver-ing" new equipment. Unfortunately for them, this particular piece of gear doesn't stand up well to such treatment.

Moonjumper
Jun 19, 2012, 09:34 AM
I'm interested to see how much glare has reduced by. If it is as good as the Air, which it sounds as it is the case, then that is fine. Still waiting for one at the local Apple reseller to see for myself.

I hope the same reduction in glare is coming to the iMac. The larger screen makes it even harder to avoid reflections.

MasterHowl
Jun 19, 2012, 09:34 AM
Every time I see those things, it makes my mid-2009 MacBook Pro seem ancient and outdated!

Trying to justify buying one, but just can't do it... damn they're so nice :D

thuchu1
Jun 19, 2012, 09:35 AM
Seems like it common sense rather than a marvel...I guess technology just didn't have the capabilities until now?

Hindsight is 20/20. Most companies don't have the type of power needed to influence their supply chain like this. Dell engineers receive the mounting bracket and panel dimensions from Sharp and get designing. Apple engineers take a step back and pick out the pieces that don't need to be there. I know from my experience as a product designer that most companies don't allow the time or the flexibility to tweak such minute details.

ghostface147
Jun 19, 2012, 09:38 AM
They can take apart a highly engineered screen, but they can't remove a battery that is glued. Odd.

Diode
Jun 19, 2012, 09:39 AM
Too bad so many of the owners won't have a clue of this marvel.

Oh well...not that they need to...'it just works' is good enough

I think that's the best part.

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

Schizoid
Jun 19, 2012, 09:39 AM
it's a mrrrcle!

thuchu1
Jun 19, 2012, 09:41 AM
Another forum member posted in an ongoing MBP-R related thread that he was returning his MBP-R precisely because the display was an integral element and could not be swapped out or replaced.

The poster railed against "locked down" design ... a concern I cannot understand and do not share.

As iFixit noted, the retina display is an elegant marvel. While I don't imagine the Mac mini or iMac will be "locked down" anytime soon, that's clearly the direction the laptop line is taking.

I guess there will always be users who fancy themselves system engineers and cannot resist "screwdriver-ing" new equipment. Unfortunately for them, this particular piece of gear doesn't stand up well to such treatment.

Thank you for the level head. These devices are getting down to the scale where even little torx screws have to be accounted for when placing the components. The glue on the batteries is just a testament to the constraints this machine was engineered under. I love tinkering with my own devices, but I'll take a refined product the foregoes user serviceability any day.

Schizoid
Jun 19, 2012, 09:42 AM
They can take apart a highly engineered screen, but they can't remove a battery that is glued. Odd.

might be something to do with the heat to release the glue... although personally I would heat up a battery just to see what happened in a Mythbusters style!

sweetbrat
Jun 19, 2012, 09:43 AM
They can take apart a highly engineered screen, but they can't remove a battery that is glued. Odd.

They weren't worried about the screen possibly exploding or leaking nasty chemicals. The battery on the other hand...

DoFoT9
Jun 19, 2012, 09:45 AM
I know it's not just me...but the 'a laser engraved internal use code (http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/GGjmUQwXwlrFJAUy.huge)' isn't aligned properly.

*goes and breaks his RMBP display to make sure his code is etched properly or is asking for a new one*

Kidding...or am I?

you're totally not kidding -.-

AustinIllini
Jun 19, 2012, 09:50 AM
Mmm, what is the price asked by apple to replace the entire screen?

Give it a year so the warranties of all these guys end. Then we'll find out.

sijk
Jun 19, 2012, 09:51 AM
I'm interested to see how much glare has reduced by. If it is as good as the Air, which it sounds as it is the case, then that is fine. Still waiting for one at the local Apple reseller to see for myself.

Haven't got mine yet but looks pretty good according to this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzVJXMacOl4&t=1m30s

Jiten
Jun 19, 2012, 09:54 AM
I hope the screen proves to be reliable in the long term. It would suck if these things turns out to be fragile.

G5isAlive
Jun 19, 2012, 09:55 AM
Another forum member posted in an ongoing MBP-R related thread that he was returning his MBP-R precisely because the display was an integral element and could not be swapped out or replaced.

The poster railed against "locked down" design ... a concern I cannot understand and do not share.

As iFixit noted, the retina display is an elegant marvel. While I don't imagine the Mac mini or iMac will be "locked down" anytime soon, that's clearly the direction the laptop line is taking.

I guess there will always be users who fancy themselves system engineers and cannot resist "screwdriver-ing" new equipment. Unfortunately for them, this particular piece of gear doesn't stand up well to such treatment.

what are screwdriver heads going to do when the whole computer rolls up in a flexible sheet of clear plastic? complain about the battery life no doubt.

future is coming. This is just a pit stop.

Prodo123
Jun 19, 2012, 09:58 AM
The teardown documents the full range of features used to keep the display slim and light while delivering crisp images on the ultra-high resolution screen, including routing of cables through hinges, 48 LEDs at the bottom of the screen to light the display, and various diffuser, prism, and polarizing sheets to generate the screen's images.
As I said many times before, the color gamut on this is going to be terribly disappointing...

Abazigal
Jun 19, 2012, 09:59 AM
The point you make is spot on. I think this goes for the population in general. Whether it be cars/computers or microwave ovens most people want something that just works and are not the least bit interested in the engineering it takes to get there, and why should they be if they don't want to?

To me, good engineering makes itself felt in how well the product works, not how much technical jargon one can spew. So what if the screen has a glass cover or not. I have zero idea whether that is a good thing or not, and I believe at in itself, that it is not indicative of how well a product works either.

drewyboy
Jun 19, 2012, 10:00 AM
Another forum member posted in an ongoing MBP-R related thread that he was returning his MBP-R precisely because the display was an integral element and could not be swapped out or replaced.

The poster railed against "locked down" design ... a concern I cannot understand and do not share.

As iFixit noted, the retina display is an elegant marvel. While I don't imagine the Mac mini or iMac will be "locked down" anytime soon, that's clearly the direction the laptop line is taking.

I guess there will always be users who fancy themselves system engineers and cannot resist "screwdriver-ing" new equipment. Unfortunately for them, this particular piece of gear doesn't stand up well to such treatment.

LOL! What did he think when he bought the computer. Non replaceable battery or ram, yet he gets upset over not being able to "Swap" or "replace" the LCD?! HAHAHA! Btw, what the heck do you need to "swap" an lcd for. You should only be replacing.

BrettJDeriso
Jun 19, 2012, 10:01 AM
I guess I'm just not susceptible to this collective orgasm :confused:

Yes, it's a leap forward in laptop display technology, but seriously, how is it so much more advanced than the MacBook Air screen, besides in pixel density?? Not counting the wafer-thin aluminum front bezel, the display on my Air is barely 2.5mm thick.

I slobber over Jony Ive as much as the next fanboy, but let's call this what it is: a refinement. Tweaking a unibody design is impressive, but omitting glass hardly rises to the level of an 'engineering marvel'. Let's save that hyperbole for when he unveils a single, flexible polymer sheet display, or better yet, a holographic one.

mohsy90
Jun 19, 2012, 10:05 AM
Where is facebook login?/?

Prodo123
Jun 19, 2012, 10:09 AM
The only thing that will impress me with laptop displays is when they fit a RGB backlight into an assembly this small.
Otherwise it's just a compromise in performance for resolution.
Just like the megapixel wars in cameras.

olowott
Jun 19, 2012, 10:15 AM
AppleCare never looked more attractive.

You got it so Right;) , and who is not gonna have his lovely retina pro cover with the Care of a Best Customer service company:cool:

Pakaku
Jun 19, 2012, 10:18 AM
Oh great, now the screen is even more fragile?

maflynn
Jun 19, 2012, 10:23 AM
I'm having second thoughts on my retina MBP order. From reading this, it appears the lack of a stand alone frame and glass layer decreases the strength significantly.

Irock619
Jun 19, 2012, 10:30 AM
Something has to give. In other words, if people keep wanting thinner and lighter products, then the overall quality of the product may have to suffer in the process. I'm not saying this has happened, but eventually I think the overall structural integrity of a Apple computer will suffer.

NStocks
Jun 19, 2012, 10:37 AM
I had the same question until I went to the Apple store, You kind of have to see it to understand.

The screen has no covering glass so when you press hard enough, the LCD ripples like a traditional desktop LCD monitor. However, it is harder than a traditional unprotected LCD so it kind of feels like there is still glass there and requires more pressure to get that ripple effect. I've never seen anything constructed like it and I'm really interested in how they made an LCD with without glass still look like an edge to edge black surface.

I'm also assuming the lack of cover glass is the reason why it doesn't say "Macbook Pro" on the bezel.

By the way, the screen looks amazing :)

Thanks for the reply.

I guess it really is a 'engineering marvel' if they can get it to look so good, so thing and with no glass! I too would presume that's why it doesn't say 'Macbook Pro'.

How is the bezel? Is it much smaller than the previous gen. 15"? I have the unibody 17" and the bezel is perfect proportion, however I think the 15" bezel if 10mm too thick.

ixodes
Jun 19, 2012, 10:44 AM
Another forum member posted in an ongoing MBP-R related thread that he was returning his MBP-R precisely because the display was an integral element and could not be swapped out or replaced.
Obviously there is a distinct lack of knowledge in the post above. One who fails to understand how laptops are built.

If you have a current conventional MBP, and the display goes out, it's only $241.00 to buy the display and install it yourself. A job I have done very easily. If you want it done for you, it's still less than $300.00

That's my point, the display is not available separately for the MBP_R since it's now glued / bonded into the top of the laptop. I did NOT say it could not be replaced.

The poster above obviously didn't read my post.

I correctly stated the _display_ could not be replaced, instead one has to buy what will undoubtedly be a very expensive _assembly_ which consists of the display which is bonded into the cover of the laptop.

The point? Apple is driving up the price of their products by taking these kinds of measures.

When we vote with our money and buy them, we are telling Apple we are willing to take the hit, spend more money, and for what? A laptop that is fractions of an inch thinner and only a pound lighter?

It's this kind of FUD spread by posters here that don't read the original posts, but instead are out to attack and spew their venom that causes friction in the forum.



sources:
15" LCD Screen for Apple MacBook Pro with LED Backlight
Retail price: $240.99
https://www.etechparts.com/15-LCD-Screen-for-Apple-MacBook-Pro-LED-p/822-2010.ht

15" LCD Screen for Apple MacBook Pro with LED Backlight - Installed.
Retail Price: $289.00
http://www.techrestore.com/xcart/cart.php?xid=394f9a54ae92b561e804ffc5ad626c26

LeGacY X
Jun 19, 2012, 10:49 AM
While not user replaceable, you have to admit, the engineering and R&D that went into this is impressive. Far more impressive than any other consumer electronics company.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 19, 2012, 10:49 AM
A Marvel Apple will get credit for and not the real designer/manufacturer of the screen (Samsung, Sanyo, whoever it may be.)

TMay
Jun 19, 2012, 10:49 AM
The only thing that will impress me with laptop displays is when they fit a RGB backlight into an assembly this small.
Otherwise it's just a compromise in performance for resolution.
Just like the megapixel wars in cameras.

Engineering is always a compromise, and WRT the megapixel wars, Nikon D800/800E, D3200 and Sony NEX7 nicely defy conventional wisdom.

Prother
Jun 19, 2012, 10:51 AM
Another forum member posted in an ongoing MBP-R related thread that he was returning his MBP-R precisely because the display was an integral element and could not be swapped out or replaced.

Obviously there is a distinct lack of knowledge in the post above. One who fails to understand how laptops are built.

If you have a current conventional MBP, and the display goes out, it's only $241.00 to buy the display and install it yourself. A job I have done very easily. If you want it done for you, it's still less than $300.00

That's my point, the display is not available separately for the MBP_R since it's now glued / bonded into the top of the laptop. I did NOT say it could not be replaced.

The poster above obviously didn't read my post.

I correctly stated the _display_ could not be replaced, instead one has to buy what will undoubtedly be a very expensive _assembly_ which consists of the display which is bonded into the cover of the laptop.

The point? Apple is driving up the price of their products by taking these kinds of measures.

When we vote with our money and buy them, we are telling Apple we are willing to take the hit, spend more money, and for what? A laptop that is fractions of an inch thinner and only a pound lighter?

It's this kind of FUD spread by posters here that don't read the original posts, but instead are out to attack and spew their venom that causes friction in the forum.
Guess we know who jmoore5196 was talking about...

JacobMarley
Jun 19, 2012, 10:52 AM
Man I can't wait to see the 13" Macbook Pro Retina.

I wonder when it will be out for sale.? do you have any idea?

zigmund555
Jun 19, 2012, 10:58 AM
Well then the repair part becomes the entire top case assembly. It's faster and easier for a service tech in the US to just replace the whole thing as one unit and send the bad ones somewhere cheaper for remanufacturing or recycling,

Dangerous Theory
Jun 19, 2012, 11:02 AM
A Marvel Apple will get credit for and not the real designer/manufacturer of the screen (Samsung, Sanyo, whoever it may be.)

Sad but true. The engineers always get given the back seat.

OddyOh
Jun 19, 2012, 11:06 AM
Better buy the domain "ibrokeit.com"... :)

bedifferent
Jun 19, 2012, 11:08 AM
I guess I'm just not susceptible to this collective orgasm :confused:

Yes, it's a leap forward in laptop display technology, but seriously, how is it so much more advanced than the MacBook Air screen, besides in pixel density?? Not counting the wafer-thin aluminum front bezel, the display on my Air is barely 2.5mm thick.

but it's wafer thin!

weaponEX
Jun 19, 2012, 11:11 AM
Glad to hear it. Wouldn't have anything less :apple:

ender21
Jun 19, 2012, 11:12 AM
The poster railed against "locked down" design ... a concern I cannot understand and do not share.

You can't "understand" it? I can see disagreeing with it, but it doesn't seem challenging to at least understand the sentiment.

I choose my participation in locked-down vs open on a case-by-case basis. The R-MBP is a case where I will likely be satisfied with locked down.

Nostromo
Jun 19, 2012, 11:12 AM
This is going to be a great, great success.

And I'm glad about the "no glass panel in front of the screen - no glare".

Daalseth
Jun 19, 2012, 11:13 AM
When's the last time anyone tracked down a bad component on a motherboard or power supply or video card and FIXED it. No, we swap the whole component now. This is a continuation on this theme. If anything happens in the upper half of the MacBook Pro Retina (or I suspect the MacBook Air) they will just swap out the whole assembly. It's cheaper to replace it than paying a Tech to try to fix it. This meant that there was no reason to make it repairable. Other engineering constraints took priority.

a.gomez
Jun 19, 2012, 11:21 AM
"iFixit actually broke the LCD in the process of trying to disassemble it, noting that anyone looking to replace their display would need to replace the entire assembly"

engineering marvel? times have changed - kids will buy just about anything these days.

as for the delays on the Apple store - most people know they do not account for much, Apple just does not have the capacity HP and Dell have... If you get overwhelmed with 4 million units a quarter.

gnasher729
Jun 19, 2012, 11:24 AM
Another forum member posted in an ongoing MBP-R related thread that he was returning his MBP-R precisely because the display was an integral element and could not be swapped out or replaced.

The poster railed against "locked down" design ... a concern I cannot understand and do not share.

That's the official story. The unofficial story is that his wife kicked him hard after spending £1799 on a new computer when the previous one was still working fine, and all credit cards already close to maxed out :D


Well then the repair part becomes the entire top case assembly. It's faster and easier for a service tech in the US to just replace the whole thing as one unit and send the bad ones somewhere cheaper for remanufacturing or recycling,

iFixit broke the LCD display because they hadn't figured out yet how it was constructed. They thought they were removing the glass cover - but there wasn't one. No wonder they broke it. The next time that won't happen because now they know there is no glass to remove. Even so, the question isn't whether you can _remove_ the LCD without breaking it, the question is whether you can _put in a new one_ without breaking it.

boccabella
Jun 19, 2012, 11:27 AM
If there is no glass covering why is there no space between the bezel and the screen?

frjonah
Jun 19, 2012, 11:29 AM
As there is no front glass, how is the screen 'protected'? I mean, the previous generations have glass to almost prevent damage from scratches etc. Does it still have a glass element to it or is it more lift a standard LCD 'finish'?

Interesting point though, in fairness, if the top "protective" glass is scratched, the display is still pretty much bricked.. even with previous models, my understanding has been that the cost of fixing the display was generally higher than just getting a new machine.

doobybiggs
Jun 19, 2012, 11:31 AM
Its getting tight in there...

TWSS .... anyone? come on thats too good to pass up :p


This retina screen is actually pretty impressive. I had no idea it was so evolved. Now, I wonder if iFixit got a replacement yet or if they have to wait a long time for it.

Prodo123
Jun 19, 2012, 11:43 AM
Engineering is always a compromise, and WRT the megapixel wars, Nikon D800/800E, D3200 and Sony NEX7 nicely defy conventional wisdom.

I dislike the D800(E) and D3200 personally. They don't stack up against Canon when in lowlight due to the megapixels.
NEX-7 doesn't have an unnecessarily high density sensor like the one found in the D800(E). It has a fairly average 24MP sensor, but then again it has its own downfalls, such as the lack of an OVF.

They do not defy conventional wisdom. They still sacrifice performance for quantity.

Macist
Jun 19, 2012, 11:43 AM
You can't have no glare. They minimized it until it was almost nothing

You can't defy the physics of light - the matte screens simply diffuse glare and so look duller and milkier when strong light hits them while the glossy ones offer sharper reflections. It's all a non issue. If you don't want light to unduly marr your screen, whether it's matte or gloss, get a hood.

newyorkone
Jun 19, 2012, 11:43 AM
A Marvel Apple will get credit for and not the real designer/manufacturer of the screen (Samsung, Sanyo, whoever it may be.)

Hello! The Apple engineers are the real designers. Apple isn't like Dell, who buys off the shelf parts. Apple designs custom parts for all of their hardware. As a matter of fact, the retina display technology is patented by Apple. You can't just cram all those pixels into the same amount of area without having serious problems so they had to specifically engineer a way to do it.

The manufactures are just that...manufacturers. They receive the specs from Apple's engineers and make the displays.

frjonah
Jun 19, 2012, 11:45 AM
I dislike the D800(E) and D3200 personally. They don't stack up against Canon when in lowlight due to the megapixels.
NEX-7 doesn't have an unnecessarily high density sensor like the one found in the D800(E). It has a fairly average 24MP sensor, but then again it has its own downfalls, such as the lack of an OVF.

They do not defy conventional wisdom. They still sacrifice performance for quantity.

Hasselblad... medium format is how you avoid sacrificing performance for quantity, though it comes at a price :)

Moonjumper
Jun 19, 2012, 11:47 AM
You can't defy the physics of light - the matte screens simply diffuse glare and so look duller and milkier when strong light hits them while the glossy ones offer sharper reflections. It's all a non issue. If you don't want light to unduly marr your screen, whether it's matte or gloss, get a hood.

Or hope that Apple introduces one of the new anti-reflective technologies, such as moth-eye, that neither diffuses or reflects light at a level that is noticeable.

CodexMonkey
Jun 19, 2012, 11:54 AM
If you think THIS is an engineering marvel, Microsoft have just announced a cover for their new ‘Surface’ tablet that seems to attach with some kind of magnets or something. Seriously, I don’t know where those Redmond boys get their crazy ideas from.

(Yeah, I know it has a keyboard built into it as well and, if it works (remember, this is Microsoft) then that’s also kinda clever)

Schizoid
Jun 19, 2012, 11:56 AM
You can't defy the physics of light - the matte screens simply diffuse glare and so look duller and milkier when strong light hits them while the glossy ones offer sharper reflections. It's all a non issue. If you don't want light to unduly marr your screen, whether it's matte or gloss, get a hood.

So what your saying is, ya cannae change the laws o' physics!?

praktical
Jun 19, 2012, 12:04 PM
I don't know if its just me but I seriously do not like the idea of being limited to changing components.

gnasher729
Jun 19, 2012, 12:09 PM
If you think THIS is an engineering marvel, Microsoft have just announced a cover for their new ‘Surface’ tablet that seems to attach with some kind of magnets or something. Seriously, I don’t know where those Redmond boys get their crazy ideas from.

(Yeah, I know it has a keyboard built into it as well and, if it works (remember, this is Microsoft) then that’s also kinda clever)

It seems that Logitech is selling the same thing for the iPad, but it looks like it has nicer keys.

lukarak
Jun 19, 2012, 12:12 PM
So, what was with their previous comment that the display couldn't be removed from the display assembly? There is no display assembly. It's only the display.

Medic311
Jun 19, 2012, 12:20 PM
Most companies don't have the type of power needed to influence their supply chain like this. Dell engineers receive the mounting bracket and panel dimensions from Sharp and get designing. Apple engineers take a step back and pick out the pieces that don't need to be there. I know from my experience as a product designer that most companies don't allow the time or the flexibility to tweak such minute details.

wrong about Dell. how does Dell not have the influence? Dell pioneered supply chain for computers, not apple, and Dell still has more influence.
they sell more total desktop+laptop machines than Apple. Dell does everything by cost bc its customers primarily value cost as the driving feature (large enterprise, federal and state governments, etc).
that's how the auto industry works. if a vehicle manufacturer acted like Apple and dictated the shape and size of every switch, every actuator, every door lock (you name it), then a compact car would cost $80,000. for Apple, their customers don't care about cost so focusing on design with higher costs works very well. for Dell, that would not work well because they would lose the competitive bidding process against HP for enterprise and government contracts.

suppliers are willing to do whatever you, as the assembler, want them to do as long as the price is right. hey man, if you are assembling a vehicle radio and your UID/UIS people don't like radio knobs with increments, but rather wants the knob to turn smooth with an infinite # of angles, then Supplier A would give you a quote of $40,000 for the tooling change. this might raise the price of the head unit by $0.40. multiply that by the number of units you sell and that's your added cost you have to either eat, or increase the price to account for it. eating cost is a last resort, so chances are they will pass it off to the customer in the showroom in the form of a price hike. that price hike then could make or break the competitive position of the vehicle against others in its class

if you are in product development as you say you are, you know that the general rule of thumb is for every $0.10 in cost you add to the product, you add $1.00 to the selling price. this is why Apple's products are so expensive to begin with, which is then pushed up even more to create additional profit margin to account for lower sales numbers. this is why Apple's cash on hand skyrocketed out of control from 2008 until now. their profit margins were set to be based on X sales per quarter. they kept those profit margins even when sales kept doubling and doubling over each other and again after that from 2009, to 2010, to 2011, 2012 etc. Apple is still able to maintain the higher prices despite the fact that electronics (mainly flash based memory and screens) is experiencing a cliff based drop off in prices. eventually though, the disparity between the cost of the components and the selling price will be so drastic that Apple will need to lower the prices

Diode
Jun 19, 2012, 12:22 PM
They can take apart a highly engineered screen, but they can't remove a battery that is glued. Odd.

I think they mentioned they didn't want to remove the battery because of the risk of puncturing a cell. Puncturing one of those batteries could cause a fairly serious fire.

Buildbright
Jun 19, 2012, 12:23 PM
I want a retina 13" pro and it may replace my air. The downside is the 13" most likely will not have a dedicated GPU which would push me to change from the Air. The retina display does nothing for me right as there is a lot of software scaling issues right now. This makes the retina display a novelty unless you are going to use it for photography or video editing but you most likely go 15" if you are using it as a pro rig.

Rocketman
Jun 19, 2012, 12:33 PM
I had the same question until I went to the Apple store, You kind of have to see it to understand.

The screen has no covering glass so when you press hard enough, the LCD ripples like a traditional desktop LCD monitor. However, it is harder than a traditional unprotected LCD so it kind of feels like there is still glass there and requires more pressure to get that ripple effect. I've never seen anything constructed like it and I'm really interested in how they made an LCD with without glass still look like an edge to edge black surface.

I'm also assuming the lack of cover glass is the reason why it doesn't say "Macbook Pro" on the bezel.

By the way, the screen looks amazing :)Gorilla Glass 2 is supposedly both stronger and flexible. The use of multiple materials to combine to make a "plastic" is likely how they do it.

Technically glass is a liquid. Many windows in old Europe have slumped to the point of having large waves in them.

BTW when they released iPhone 1 and folks asked about servicing it, they stated they would exchange hardware rather than doing repairs. That meme has arrived to the top level MacBook Pro now. That was 2007.

Rocketman

Terrin
Jun 19, 2012, 12:36 PM
who produces the screen ?
Samsung ? Sharp ? another company ?

Rumor is Sharp produces it.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 19, 2012, 12:36 PM
Hello! The Apple engineers are the real designers. Apple isn't like Dell, who buys off the shelf parts. Apple designs custom parts for all of their hardware. As a matter of fact, the retina display technology is patented by Apple. You can't just cram all those pixels into the same amount of area without having serious problems so they had to specifically engineer a way to do it.

The manufactures are just that...manufacturers. They receive the specs from Apple's engineers and make the displays.

You are wrong. Apple sends spec sheets to manufacturers and then tells them to provide the parts.

t3gilligan
Jun 19, 2012, 12:47 PM
So, I'm sure this will get modded down, but it is definitely my honest opinion. I've been using apple's Imacs and laptops for the last 12 years, and have never had the compulsion to buy anything else. However a couple things about this new "engineering marvel" annoy me.

1. C.S. Lewis once said "Don't use words too big for the subject. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite." Words mean something and unfortunately when marketing a product, words are laid waste, for the cause of selling the product. The new Macbook Pro is definitely not an engineering marvel. And it is insulting our intelligence to promote it as so. The Pyramids, the Roman Aqueducts, even the International Space Station and all the equipment put together to get man to the moon and back, are all arguably engineering marvels. Each one of these achievements put in perspective the "engineering marvel" of the MacBook Pro. In 10 years there will be very few of these things around...

Whether or not this thing is even good engineering will be found out in 6 months or so, when the hype settles, and we determine the effectiveness and reliability of the components. Pretty design, yes. Engineering Marvel, no.

2. The upgrade ability of this product will keep me from purchasing it. I like something that just works, which is why I have used apple products for the last 12 years. They just work. However, I also like to save money when possible. If something breaks, I can save a good deal of money fixing it. I can also save a good deal of money upgrading RAM on my own. And then when it comes time to buy a new machine, I can make a little money taking the components apart and selling them to folks. It is easy for you to paint folks like me in a negative light, but the truth is, I like to save money where possible, and I like to get as much use out of a product as possible. When apple care runs out on this baby, you are out of luck...

3. Remember iphone 4 antennagate? Imagine, in 3 or 4 months if there is a design flaw exposed, especially in the screen, or even with the cooling capabilities, causing multiple components to fail. Given the past record of Apple in admitting their faults, do you really think they will be eager to replace a large amount of entire machines (because everything is so integrated) due to an engineering oversight? The tight integration of all these components could very much negatively affect even your support...

All in all, I'm not favorable of the new Macbook pro. It is cool, yes, but I'm skeptical... Thankfully my 2011 Macbook Pro, and my iMac have a few more years in them... I just hope they don't pull this on the next iMac release.

SCARY GAY DAD
Jun 19, 2012, 12:50 PM
You are wrong. Apple sends spec sheets to manufacturers and then tells them to provide the parts.
That makes absolutely no sense. That's what he said, and now you're explaining why he's wrong by repeating what he said? What kind of drugs are you on?

wankey
Jun 19, 2012, 12:55 PM
I don't know if its just me but I seriously do not like the idea of being limited to changing components.

Do you own a car? Can you change your car engine? Or how about a wind screen? Or hey, what happens when you need to fix a car ignition key?

SCARY GAY DAD
Jun 19, 2012, 12:59 PM
So, I'm sure this will get modded down, but it is definitely my honest opinion. I've been using apple's Imacs and laptops for the last 12 years, and have never had the compulsion to buy anything else. However a couple things about this new "engineering marvel" annoy me.

1. C.S. Lewis once said "Don't use words too big for the subject. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite." Words mean something and unfortunately when marketing a product, words are laid waste, for the cause of selling the product. The new Macbook Pro is definitely not an engineering marvel. And it is insulting our intelligence to promote it as so. The Pyramids, the Roman Aqueducts, even the International Space Station and all the equipment put together to get man to the moon and back, are all arguably engineering marvels. Each one of these achievements put in perspective the "engineering marvel" of the MacBook Pro. In 10 years there will be very few of these things around...

Whether or not this thing is even good engineering will be found out in 6 months or so, when the hype settles, and we determine the effectiveness and reliability of the components. Pretty design, yes. Engineering Marvel, no.

It's called marketing. If you can't tell the difference between marketing rhetoric and literal rhetoric, I can see why you're confused.


2. The upgrade ability of this product will keep me from purchasing it. I like something that just works, which is why I have used apple products for the last 12 years. They just work. However, I also like to save money when possible. If something breaks, I can save a good deal of money fixing it. I can also save a good deal of money upgrading RAM on my own. And then when it comes time to buy a new machine, I can make a little money taking the components apart and selling them to folks. It is easy for you to paint folks like me in a negative light, but the truth is, I like to save money where possible, and I like to get as much use out of a product as possible. When apple care runs out on this baby, you are out of luck...

Sure, you can no longer sell parts, but to fault Apple for that is silly. That is not part of Apple's design goal.


3. Remember iphone 4 antennagate? Imagine, in 3 or 4 months if there is a design flaw exposed, especially in the screen, or even with the cooling capabilities, causing multiple components to fail. Given the past record of Apple in admitting their faults, do you really think they will be eager to replace a large amount of entire machines (because everything is so integrated) due to an engineering oversight? The tight integration of all these components could very much negatively affect even your support...

All in all, I'm not favorable of the new Macbook pro. It is cool, yes, but I'm skeptical... Thankfully my 2011 Macbook Pro, and my iMac have a few more years in them... I just hope they don't pull this on the next iMac release.
You're making assumptions based on something that hasn't happened yet. What flaw EXACTLY is there, and why EXACTLY do you think that will be a flaw?

----------------

In summary, your criticisms are fallacious.

koolmagicguy
Jun 19, 2012, 01:00 PM
Hehe, iFixit broke something :D

t3gilligan
Jun 19, 2012, 01:08 PM
Do you own a car? Can you change your car engine? Or how about a wind screen? Or hey, what happens when you need to fix a car ignition key?

I'm not buying a car, I'm buying a laptop... Different class of products, with a different class of use..

hchung
Jun 19, 2012, 01:10 PM
A Marvel Apple will get credit for and not the real designer/manufacturer of the screen (Samsung, Sanyo, whoever it may be.)
who produces the screen ?
Samsung ? Sharp ? another company ?
Rumor is Sharp produces it.

....Seriously? If anybody knew anything about LCDs, they would have guessed LG.
(Remember who Apple worked with to develop the iPhone 4's display?)

And you know what? If anybody read the freakin' article, they would know it IS LG.

Not Sharp, not Samsung, not AU Optronics. LG. Got it?

PS: Sanyo doesn't even make panels. Last time I checked, they buy them from Sharp. Heck, even some of Samsung's consumer products use AU panels.

Terrin
Jun 19, 2012, 01:22 PM
You make some good points, but what you might not have considered is that Dell offers far more models of products than Apple. Many of the products do not share parts. Apple on the other hand only makes a few different products. Dell also doesn't have products like the iPad, which many argue should be counted as a PC. If you count the iPad as a PC, Apple is the largest American manufacturer of PCs. This all relates to Apple's bulk purchasing power.

Further, Apple has zero debt and billions of dollars in the Bank. Consequently, Apple has more purchasing power to prepay for product.

In addition, Apple can leverage the success of products like the iPhone to get better pricing on items it needs for other products.

Finally, Dell might have pioneered the supply chain, but Apple has mastered it. Nobody manages inventory like Apple.



wrong about Dell. how does Dell not have the influence? Dell pioneered supply chain for computers, not apple, and Dell still has more influence.
they sell more total desktop+laptop machines than Apple. Dell does everything by cost bc its customers primarily value cost as the driving feature (large enterprise, federal and state governments, etc).
that's how the auto industry works. if a vehicle manufacturer acted like Apple and dictated the shape and size of every switch, every actuator, every door lock (you name it), then a compact car would cost $80,000. for Apple, their customers don't care about cost so focusing on design with higher costs works very well. for Dell, that would not work well because they would lose the competitive bidding process against HP for enterprise and government contracts.

suppliers are willing to do whatever you, as the assembler, want them to do as long as the price is right. hey man, if you are assembling a vehicle radio and your UID/UIS people don't like radio knobs with increments, but rather wants the knob to turn smooth with an infinite # of angles, then Supplier A would give you a quote of $40,000 for the tooling change. this might raise the price of the head unit by $0.40. multiply that by the number of units you sell and that's your added cost you have to either eat, or increase the price to account for it. eating cost is a last resort, so chances are they will pass it off to the customer in the showroom in the form of a price hike. that price hike then could make or break the competitive position of the vehicle against others in its class

if you are in product development as you say you are, you know that the general rule of thumb is for every $0.10 in cost you add to the product, you add $1.00 to the selling price. this is why Apple's products are so expensive to begin with, which is then pushed up even more to create additional profit margin to account for lower sales numbers. this is why Apple's cash on hand skyrocketed out of control from 2008 until now. their profit margins were set to be based on X sales per quarter. they kept those profit margins even when sales kept doubling and doubling over each other and again after that from 2009, to 2010, to 2011, 2012 etc. Apple is still able to maintain the higher prices despite the fact that electronics (mainly flash based memory and screens) is experiencing a cliff based drop off in prices. eventually though, the disparity between the cost of the components and the selling price will be so drastic that Apple will need to lower the prices

ThisIsNotMe
Jun 19, 2012, 01:23 PM
Another forum member posted in an ongoing MBP-R related thread that he was returning his MBP-R precisely because the display was an integral element and could not be swapped out or replaced.

The poster railed against "locked down" design ... a concern I cannot understand and do not share.

As iFixit noted, the retina display is an elegant marvel. While I don't imagine the Mac mini or iMac will be "locked down" anytime soon, that's clearly the direction the laptop line is taking.

I guess there will always be users who fancy themselves system engineers and cannot resist "screwdriver-ing" new equipment. Unfortunately for them, this particular piece of gear doesn't stand up well to such treatment.

I guess that user wants to carry around a Macintosh Portable or something.

God people will find anything to bitch about.

t3gilligan
Jun 19, 2012, 01:24 PM
It's called marketing. If you can't tell the difference between marketing rhetoric and literal rhetoric, I can see why you're confused.

No confusion is involved. I'm totally aware of marketing rhetoric. However it seems as if Apple has jumped the shark on this one. It actually makes them look silly and childish to promote this as an "Engineering Marvel".


Sure, you can no longer sell parts, but to fault Apple for that is silly. That is not part of Apple's design goal.

Fair enough, this is my opinion, take it or leave it.


You're making assumptions based on something that hasn't happened yet. What flaw EXACTLY is there, and why EXACTLY do you think that will be a flaw?

By reading my post you would notice the word could. Truth is, tightly integrated components increase the cost of replacement regardless the failure. I'm not making assumptions based on something that hasn't happened yet. I'm saying: "In the event of" a failure, the risk is much higher of a very expensive fix.

----------------

In summary, your criticisms are fallacious.

Really? This seems to be an awfully arrogant "blanket statement" in response to someone's opinion. Laughable really.

hchung
Jun 19, 2012, 01:27 PM
wrong about Dell. how does Dell not have the influence? Dell pioneered supply chain for computers, not apple, and Dell still has more influence.

suppliers are willing to do whatever you, as the assembler, want them to do as long as the price is right. hey man, if you are assembling a vehicle radio and your UID/UIS people don't like radio knobs with increments, but rather wants the knob to turn smooth with an infinite # of angles, then Supplier A would give you a quote of $40,000 for the tooling change. this might raise the price of the head unit by $0.40. multiply that by the number of units you sell and that's your added cost you have to either eat, or increase the price to account for it. eating cost is a last resort, so chances are they will pass it off to the customer in the showroom in the form of a price hike. that price hike then could make or break the competitive position of the vehicle against others in its class


It just doesn't work that way. Dell influences volumes and pricing, but does not influence the actual design of the parts. Why? Because there's no way Dell would be willing to pay the money necessary to actually get custom designed parts when off the shelf ones are available that leverage the collective volume of the entire notebook manufacturing industry.

The panels you get for the average Dell laptop are the same ones you get for the average Toshiba, Compaq, Acer, Asus, etc.

In the common case, a panel manufacturer makes panels (the glass part with liquid crystals and switching matrix embedded) and then make a standard-sized display (the metal frame, panel, diffusers, backlights). These sizes are typically agreed upon within the industry so that they can multi-source them. Hence why if you buy 50 Thinkpads, they can all have the same panel size, but different resolution and manufacturer of panels, in the same laptop display shells. Even sharing the same connectors where suitable across manufacturer.

Unless Dell plans on making an entirely custom display assembly, they'll never influence the manufacturers in terms of design despite their buying power because making custom designs means they're tied to selling to Dell. Production lines arn't that easy to bring up, and there's no way Dell can match the rest of their competitors in purchasing while making dirt cheap laptops.

The Macbook Air and the Retina MBP are examples that break this normal pattern. In this case, LG partners up with Apple and makes the panel (the glass part). They probably acted as consultants to Apple for the diffuser and backlight design. Apple designs the rest. Then Apple sends raw panels, assembly instructions, aluminium, and tons of optical plastic over to Foxconn to assemble. This results in a entirely custom display, where the display is the top shell of the laptop at the same time, leveraging the knowledge of three companies in their respective expertise.

There have been cases in the past where custom panel sizes have been requested. Everytime this happens, you'd start out with a super expensive laptop. Sony Vaio (specifically the 505s), all the 1st gen UMPCs, and the Powerbook Titanium are examples of this. Obviously premium brands are premium for a reason. Trying to tell us that Dell would stick their head out to do this is quite the joke.

Mattie Num Nums
Jun 19, 2012, 01:28 PM
....Seriously? If anybody knew anything about LCDs, they would have guessed LG.
(Remember who Apple worked with to develop the iPhone 4's display?)

And you know what? If anybody read the freakin' article, they would know it IS LG.

Not Sharp, not Samsung, not AU Optronics. LG. Got it?

PS: Sanyo doesn't even make panels. Last time I checked, they buy them from Sharp. Heck, even some of Samsung's consumer products use AU panels.

What part of "whoever it may be" didn't you understand? Would et al have been better?

Terrin
Jun 19, 2012, 01:35 PM
I don't know very much about LCDs. I do however know how to read. Maybe I missed it, but I do not see this article mentioning LG.

I have read a couple articles else place that speculate Sharp makes the panels. Considering large investments in Sharp recently, I do not think that is a bad guess. Here is one such article:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/253708/japans_sharp_begins_mass_production_of_igzo_displays_amid_rumors_of_apple_use.html

or perhaps this one:

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/04/13/sharp-begins-mass-production-of-retina-resolution-igzo-displays/

I will certainly look at anything you offer that shows otherwise.

....Seriously? If anybody knew anything about LCDs, they would have guessed LG.
(Remember who Apple worked with to develop the iPhone 4's display?)

And you know what? If anybody read the freakin' article, they would know it IS LG.

Not Sharp, not Samsung, not AU Optronics. LG. Got it?

PS: Sanyo doesn't even make panels. Last time I checked, they buy them from Sharp. Heck, even some of Samsung's consumer products use AU panels.

vipergts2207
Jun 19, 2012, 01:39 PM
Gorilla Glass 2 is supposedly both stronger and flexible. The use of multiple materials to combine to make a "plastic" is likely how they do it.

Technically glass is a liquid. Many windows in old Europe have slumped to the point of having large waves in them.

BTW when they released iPhone 1 and folks asked about servicing it, they stated they would exchange hardware rather than doing repairs. That meme has arrived to the top level MacBook Pro now. That was 2007.

Rocketman

Glass is not technically a liquid. It's an amorphous solid. The only similarity an amorphous solid has with a liquid is the random orientation of the molecules or atoms.

Prodo123
Jun 19, 2012, 01:40 PM
Hasselblad... medium format is how you avoid sacrificing performance for quantity, though it comes at a price :)

Wasn't that what Apple always used to be about?

Medic311
Jun 19, 2012, 01:54 PM
thank you for the reply to my post, however you selectively quoted sections of my post completely leaving out important sentences that provided explanation (it's frustrating when people do this, so instead of blowing up at you i will try and explain it again). your post went off on irrelevant tangents so i will pull out the statements that were directed at what you thought i was trying to say



It just doesn't work that way. Dell influences volumes and pricing, but does not influence the actual design of the parts. Why? Because there's no way Dell would be willing to pay the money necessary to actually get custom designed parts when off the shelf ones are available that leverage the collective volume of the entire notebook manufacturing industry.



i stated this in my original post, that you purposefully left out of your quote --> "for Apple, their customers don't care about cost so focusing on design with higher costs works very well. for Dell, that would not work well because they would lose the competitive bidding process against HP for enterprise and government contracts." .

--> the majority of Dell's business is in enterprise and government, where cost matters and design does not


Unless Dell plans on making an entirely custom display assembly, they'll never influence the manufacturers in terms of design despite their buying power because making custom designs means they're tied to selling to Dell. Production lines arn't that easy to bring up, and there's no way Dell can match the rest of their competitors in purchasing while making dirt cheap laptops.


you missed the point, Dell has no desire to do this. if over 2/3 of your profits are in a sector of the industry that doesn't care about design requiring custom parts, why spend the money to go there?

Obviously premium brands are premium for a reason. Trying to tell us that Dell would stick their head out to do this is quite the joke.

when did i say that Dell would custom design anything? find my supposed statement and quote me

repoman27
Jun 19, 2012, 02:07 PM
Obviously there is a distinct lack of knowledge in the post above. One who fails to understand how laptops are built.

If you have a current conventional MBP, and the display goes out, it's only $241.00 to buy the display and install it yourself. A job I have done very easily. If you want it done for you, it's still less than $300.00

That's my point, the display is not available separately for the MBP_R since it's now glued / bonded into the top of the laptop. I did NOT say it could not be replaced.

The poster above obviously didn't read my post.

I correctly stated the _display_ could not be replaced, instead one has to buy what will undoubtedly be a very expensive _assembly_ which consists of the display which is bonded into the cover of the laptop.

The point? Apple is driving up the price of their products by taking these kinds of measures.

When we vote with our money and buy them, we are telling Apple we are willing to take the hit, spend more money, and for what? A laptop that is fractions of an inch thinner and only a pound lighter?

It's this kind of FUD spread by posters here that don't read the original posts, but instead are out to attack and spew their venom that causes friction in the forum.



sources:
15" LCD Screen for Apple MacBook Pro with LED Backlight
Retail price: $240.99
https://www.etechparts.com/15-LCD-Screen-for-Apple-MacBook-Pro-LED-p/822-2010.ht

15" LCD Screen for Apple MacBook Pro with LED Backlight - Installed.
Retail Price: $289.00
http://www.techrestore.com/xcart/cart.php?xid=394f9a54ae92b561e804ffc5ad626c26

Your post displays a distinct lack of thinking through the difference between the display on the MBPR and other notebooks.

Do you really think the replacement cost for these panels will fall below $300 in the next few years? Have you ever priced out an IPS panel with more than 1920x1200 pixels? How much does a 2560x1600 panel cost? Apple is the only volume customer in the world at the moment for 15.4-inch, 2880x1800 IPS displays. Since LG isn't cranking these out for a hundred other OEM's at the moment, the custom cladding near as makes no difference from a cost perspective. If anything it's lowering Apple's overall costs since there are fewer parts and less material involved in the construction. It also makes it easier for the end user to service—you just swap the whole assembly.

I'm not sure how you look at the retail price of the MBPR and not realize that a solid $900 is the result of the screen alone. What do you think the rest of the display assembly, sans LCD and backlight, costs Apple? Considering the cost of aluminum, it's probably less than $10 including the camera, antennas and hinges.

What Apple is doing is creating a market for technologies that would have otherwise taken decades to reach consumers. They are almost single handedly driving the market for high resolution LCDs. In the past 25 years PC displays have only doubled in resolution (from 72 PPI to about 144 PPI). Because of Apple, we just jumped to 220 PPI. But right, it's others spreading FUD and not you, because really Apple is just out to line their pockets with the massive profits from selling overpriced replacement displays for a (relatively) low volume product.

newyorkone
Jun 19, 2012, 02:14 PM
Hehe, iFixit broke something :D

They should change their name to...

iBrokeit

lannisters4life
Jun 19, 2012, 02:22 PM
I don't know very much about LCDs. I do however know how to read. Maybe I missed it, but I do not see this article mentioning LG.

I have read a couple articles else place that speculate Sharp makes the panels. Considering large investments in Sharp recently, I do not think that is a bad guess. Here is one such article:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/253708/japans_sharp_begins_mass_production_of_igzo_displays_amid_rumors_of_apple_use.html

or perhaps this one:

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/04/13/sharp-begins-mass-production-of-retina-resolution-igzo-displays/

I will certainly look at anything you offer that shows otherwise.

I wouldn't overstate your reading ability. The article says the team thinks it's LG pretty clearly. "Markings on the inverter board read LP154WT1 (SJ) (A1) GD. Given that the board is soldered to the rest of the display, it appears to be a display manufactured by LG Philips."

Swift
Jun 19, 2012, 02:44 PM
If you read the article and even the entire ifixit disassembly guide, they mentioned that they actually ended up breaking the LCD panel while trying to pry it off. I don't think ifixit has ever broken an LCD!! :eek:

Well, gee. I opened up my Samsung plasma looking for the picture tube, and I snapped and crackled with plasma voltage. And I couldn't get it back together. I love iFixit, but this time they just got too obsessed with the idea that if Apple brings out machines like this, their business will suffer.

I would bet that this screen is a tech breakthrough, giving better, more contrasty pictures with better blacks, while not being as prone to reflections as a screen with thicker layers and a big glass cover. Yes, it cools 3rd-party repair shops, but that's one negative against three or four big positives.

tbrinkma
Jun 19, 2012, 02:58 PM
Technically glass is a liquid. Many windows in old Europe have slumped to the point of having large waves in them.

No, glass is not a liquid. It is an amorphous solid.
http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C01/C01Links/www.ualberta.ca/~bderksen/florin.html

Those old windows in Europe haven't 'slumped' or flowed or anything like that. They have large waves in them (and are thicker on one end than the other) because of the way they were made.

Back in the day, 'large' sheets of glass were made by spinning a blown globe of glass as it is re-melted. As the melting globe spins, it spreads and flattens into large, round sheets. These sheets would often be thicker near the center than the edges, and the cut rectangular (or other shape) panes was *usually* installed with the thicker edge at the bottom. That wasn't always the case though, so occasionally you'll find glass in one of those old windows with the thicker edge at the top.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_glass_%28window%29

Newer techniques for creating large, regular panes of glass have improved optical clarity and uniformity of thickness.

JAT
Jun 19, 2012, 03:04 PM
what are screwdriver heads going to do when the whole computer rolls up in a flexible sheet of clear plastic? complain about the battery life no doubt.

future is coming. This is just a pit stop.
They'll complain about the precise chemical makeup of the plastic.

1. Words mean something and unfortunately when marketing a product, words are laid waste, for the cause of selling the product. The new Macbook Pro is definitely not an engineering marvel.
You do realize this is commentary from iFixit, not Apple. That makes it the opinion of "major electronics geeks". (my words to describe iFixit)

j-traxx
Jun 19, 2012, 03:04 PM
Just like you can't do a lot of things on cars that you used to do yourself, the better tech gets is the less we are able to fix it. If you don't believe me, I invite you to bleed out your abs brake line.

JAT
Jun 19, 2012, 03:08 PM
when did i say that Dell would custom design anything? find my supposed statement and quote me

Well, I'm confused. You appeared to be contradicting a post claiming Apple custom designed something, and Dell would not.

wrong about Dell. how does Dell not have the influence? Dell pioneered supply chain for computers, not apple, and Dell still has more influence.

Medic311
Jun 19, 2012, 03:20 PM
Well, I'm confused. You appeared to be contradicting a post claiming Apple custom designed something, and Dell would not.

i was pointing out the fact that the guy is wrong who said that dell is incapable of that level of supplier influence.

my point was that it is not in Dell's best interests to go the route of customized parts with increased costs since over 65% of Dell's business is in enterprise and government and that segment of the industry doesn't value design, they value cost and maintainability (Dell computers are much easier to swap out parts in an IT environment and Dell as a company has the supply chain for replacement parts down to a science). the consumer market is a different beast, which as we see with Apple, consumers value physical design and attributes at the expense of cost. what works for Apple, works for Apple. what works for Dell, works for Dell. however what works from a profits standpoint has NO correlation to capability here

not to go off on you, and this statement doesn't apply to you since you've been confused by other posters who have butchered my posts with selective quotes, but this server is full of borderline illiterates or people lacking even the most basic reading comprehension skills. do yourself a favor and ignore them

Navdakilla
Jun 19, 2012, 03:25 PM
Sounds cool, but I have absolutely no idea what was just said. :)

Same, but I like what I see

SCARY GAY DAD
Jun 19, 2012, 03:26 PM
Really? This seems to be an awfully arrogant "blanket statement" in response to someone's opinion. Laughable really.
What's laughable is that you don't know what "blanket statement" means. And the fact that anyone who disagrees with you is arrogant. Or worse, your counter-argument is that I'm arrogant. No wonder your criticisms are illogical. LOL!

SCARY GAY DAD
Jun 19, 2012, 03:36 PM
I'm not buying a car, I'm buying a laptop... Different class of products, with a different class of use..
Of course it's a different class of product and use - it's called an analogy.

Seriously, you've displayed a complete lack of understanding of basic logic. You really shouldn't try to engage in logical discussion.

iRobby
Jun 19, 2012, 03:39 PM
LG Supplying MacBook Pro Retina Displays to Apple, (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/06/19/lg_supplying_macbook_pro_retina_displays_to_apple.html)


I don't know very much about LCDs. I do however know how to read. Maybe I missed it, but I do not see this article mentioning LG.

I have read a couple articles else place that speculate Sharp makes the panels. Considering large investments in Sharp recently, I do not think that is a bad guess. Here is one such article:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/253708/japans_sharp_begins_mass_production_of_igzo_displays_amid_rumors_of_apple_use.html

or perhaps this one:

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/04/13/sharp-begins-mass-production-of-retina-resolution-igzo-displays/

I will certainly look at anything you offer that shows otherwise.

JAT
Jun 19, 2012, 03:50 PM
i was pointing out the fact that the guy is wrong who said that dell is incapable of that level of supplier influence.

my point was that it is not in Dell's best interests to go the route of customized parts with increased costs since over 65% of Dell's business is in enterprise and government and that segment of the industry doesn't value design, they value cost and maintainability (Dell computers are much easier to swap out parts in an IT environment and Dell as a company has the supply chain for replacement parts down to a science). the consumer market is a different beast, which as we see with Apple, consumers value physical design and attributes at the expense of cost. what works for Apple, works for Apple. what works for Dell, works for Dell. however what works from a profits standpoint has NO correlation to capability here

not to go off on you, and this statement doesn't apply to you since you've been confused by other posters who have butchered my posts with selective quotes, but this server is full of borderline illiterates or people lacking even the most basic reading comprehension skills. do yourself a favor and ignore them
So, you have assumed that "capable" is the key point of this discussion? That doesn't appear accurate in any posts but your own. Dell has never shown the capability to custom design their own display. Whether or not they "could" is meaningless to this discussion of Apple designing theirs in the MBPr.

If you go back far enough, you will note that this really started when someone claimed Sharp or Samsung designed it, and Apple just bought the new design whole. Dell was just a contrast brought up as a company that clearly states they have no interest in such design tasks. I don't think it was meant to be inflammatory towards Dell. But you are reacting as if your name was Michael D.

I'm just analyzing the thread, here.

iBug2
Jun 19, 2012, 04:02 PM
Wasn't that what Apple always used to be about?

If you mean being a cheap computer for consumers, yes. You cannot compare a Hasselblad to Apple. Hasselblad is a 50k costing server and a Nikon D7000 is more similar to Apple.

Apple always produced machines for the consumers/prosumers, never for the top end of the spectrum. That's what SGI, Cray etc were for.

Dobiewonkanobie
Jun 19, 2012, 04:22 PM
Technically glass is a liquid. Many windows in old Europe have slumped to the point of having large waves in them.
Rocketman

Not true. Sheets of glass were orginialy made from lumps of molten glass that were rolled, blown, expanded, flattened and finally spun into a disc before being cut into panes. The sheets were thicker towards the edge of the disc and were usually installed with the heavier side at the bottom.

Now you know :)

freedevil
Jun 19, 2012, 04:42 PM
Its getting tight in there...

Thats what she said

Rocketman
Jun 19, 2012, 04:47 PM
not true. Sheets of glass were orginialy made from lumps of molten glass that were rolled, blown, expanded, flattened and finally spun into a disc before being cut into panes. The sheets were thicker towards the edge of the disc and were usually installed with the heavier side at the bottom.

Now you know :)Yep. :D

Medic311
Jun 19, 2012, 05:15 PM
So, you have assumed that "capable" is the key point of this discussion? That doesn't appear accurate in any posts but your own. Dell has never shown the capability to custom design their own display. Whether or not they "could" is meaningless to this discussion of Apple designing theirs in the MBPr.

If you go back far enough, you will note that this really started when someone claimed Sharp or Samsung designed it, and Apple just bought the new design whole. Dell was just a contrast brought up as a company that clearly states they have no interest in such design tasks. I don't think it was meant to be inflammatory towards Dell. But you are reacting as if your name was Michael D.

I'm just analyzing the thread, here.

i specifically stated capability. if you interpreted otherwise, that would be your own mistake along with the poster "hchung"

blackhand1001
Jun 19, 2012, 06:10 PM
Those polarization sheets are on every lcd. This is not some innovation. And why does this make it sound like apple did something marvelous when it really is whoever manufactures the lcd panel.

potatis
Jun 19, 2012, 06:25 PM
When will engineering marvel be able to put SIM slots in the laptop like the iPad? It's not like the cellular standards change more rapidly than other standards?

Rocketman
Jun 19, 2012, 06:30 PM
Dell has never shown the capability to custom design their own display. Whether or not they "could" is meaningless to this discussion of Apple designing theirs in the MBPrApple has had a TB display for about a year or so. Nobody else has released a clone yet. They suck.

No TB port splitters, but some have been announced for 9-12 release. 1.5+ YEARS later.

When will engineering marvel be able to put SIM slots in the laptop like the iPad?When the wireless networks can handle laptop bandwidth demands. Probably not soon. That crippling of laptops is why you can still make a phone call at all. :)

Rocketman

anthony11
Jun 19, 2012, 07:10 PM
Give it a year so the warranties of all these guys end. Then we'll find out.

Applecare is 3 years.

anthony11
Jun 19, 2012, 07:23 PM
Hasselblad... medium format is how you avoid sacrificing performance for quantity, though it comes at a price :)

My understanding is that the MF bodies AF slowly if at all, that the minimum inter-frame time is measured in seconds, and their high ISO performance is limited. They're designed to be used in posed studio situations.

I hope the screen proves to be reliable in the long term. It would suck if these things turns out to be fragile.

If it turns out to be a pervasive problem, Apple will either do something across the board, or be forced into it via a class action suit.

Technically glass is a liquid. Many windows in old Europe have slumped to the point of having large waves in them.

I've read claims that this is actually due to the old manufacturing processes, rather than flow over time.

I can also save a good deal of money upgrading RAM on my own.

No, you can't. Base configuration is 8GB, which is ample for almost everyone. The delta for going to the doubly ample 16GB model is $200. Were the ram socked commodity sticks, you wouldn't be finding them for "a good deal" less than $200.

Vendors always mark up memory, some worse than others. This $200 delta is nothing.

Remember iphone 4 antennagate?
Yep, it was a non-issue, given that anyone with a brain was already using some sort of case.

AustinIllini
Jun 19, 2012, 07:25 PM
Applecare is 3 years.

I have Applecare, but doesn't Apple cover for a year without it?

thekev
Jun 19, 2012, 07:35 PM
so is it a Sharp IGZO display?

No but I kind of feel like everyone just wants to hear about new technology implemented here whether or not it makes sense today. These things can take time to materialize, but it's not always a dramatic leap. Looking at different display technology needs to bring some kind of advantage whether its cost, appearance, power consumption, or whatever else. I wouldn't blame them for waiting for something stable though given the exotic nature of some of Apple's final implementations.

Do you own a car? Can you change your car engine? Or how about a wind screen? Or hey, what happens when you need to fix a car ignition key?

I can swap a spare tire. Does that count as a good metaphor for replacing a hard drive with a backup of the same volume:D? The car analogies are way too common on here. All of you just want to envision yourselves driving ferraris through Cupertino with Siri giving you turn by turn directions while writing email stopped at red lights on your macbook air because it's illegal to text on your iphone while driving in California. Speaking of Ferraris, have you ever seen how they handle in city driving? The engines don't like being held back by traffic:cool:.


Hindsight is 20/20. Most companies don't have the type of power needed to influence their supply chain like this. Dell engineers receive the mounting bracket and panel dimensions from Sharp and get designing. Apple engineers take a step back and pick out the pieces that don't need to be there. I know from my experience as a product designer that most companies don't allow the time or the flexibility to tweak such minute details.

I wouldn't suggest that allowing the designers to tell the engineers what parts are unnecessary is a good formula for long term reliability. If this is actually true it might explain a few first generation hiccups and later reverberations.

hchung
Jun 19, 2012, 08:26 PM
I don't know very much about LCDs. I do however know how to read. Maybe I missed it, but I do not see this article mentioning LG.

http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Retina-Display-Teardown/9493/1#.T-Ei9WJYs5s

Step 5: "Markings on the inverter board read LP154WT1 (SJ) (A1) GD. Given that the board is soldered to the rest of the display, it appears to be a display manufactured by LG Philips."

The LP prefix for LCD panel model numbers typically identifies LG Philips. (reference other older panels such as the LP141X1, LP154W1, and too many others I've long forgotten)

----------

i specifically stated capability. if you interpreted otherwise, that would be your own mistake along with the poster "hchung"

I've seen enough Dell designed laptop parts and talked off the record with a few suppliers to know that Dell would need a lot of help had they had the interest in doing something like the Retina MBP.

Granted this was a few years ago, but I haven't seen anything that would imply a change from before. Hey, some companies do improve.

But if I were to buy a standard PC laptop, Dell isn't even up for consideration. I'd most likely go Lenovo.

----------

i was pointing out the fact that the guy is wrong who said that dell is incapable of that level of supplier influence.

my point was that it is not in Dell's best interests to go the route of customized parts with increased costs since over 65% of Dell's business is in enterprise and government and that segment of the industry doesn't value design, they value cost and maintainability (Dell computers are much easier to swap out parts in an IT environment and Dell as a company has the supply chain for replacement parts down to a science). the consumer market is a different beast, which as we see with Apple, consumers value physical design and attributes at the expense of cost. what works for Apple, works for Apple. what works for Dell, works for Dell. however what works from a profits standpoint has NO correlation to capability here

not to go off on you, and this statement doesn't apply to you since you've been confused by other posters who have butchered my posts with selective quotes, but this server is full of borderline illiterates or people lacking even the most basic reading comprehension skills. do yourself a favor and ignore them

And some of us are basically saying that Dell has neither the will nor the ability to influence suppliers as much as Apple does. (directly the opposite as what you suggested.)

The reasons are simply that Dell is not willing to pay or work with a supplier to develop anything custom on the scale Apple does.

doobybiggs
Jun 19, 2012, 09:14 PM
Those polarization sheets are on every lcd. This is not some innovation. And why does this make it sound like apple did something marvelous when it really is whoever manufactures the lcd panel.

cause that is the way apple markets it ... they are that amazing

AidenShaw
Jun 19, 2012, 09:25 PM
Not true. Sheets of glass were orginialy made from lumps of molten glass that were rolled, blown, expanded, flattened and finally spun into a disc before being cut into panes. The sheets were thicker towards the edge of the disc and were usually installed with the heavier side at the bottom.

Now you know :)

No - you're wrong and the original poster is right - glass is a liquid, and the ripples in centuries old glass is due to gravity.

Edit: I was wrong - the "old glass" stories are urban legends, and are most likely due to the manufacturing processes used back then.


Applecare is 3 years.

...but many will fail in the first year, and many more in the next two years.

And why is a 3 year warranty standard on a $2K Dell laptop, and an option on a $2K Apple laptop???

repoman27
Jun 19, 2012, 09:30 PM
When's the last time anyone tracked down a bad component on a motherboard or power supply or video card and FIXED it. No, we swap the whole component now. This is a continuation on this theme. If anything happens in the upper half of the MacBook Pro Retina (or I suspect the MacBook Air) they will just swap out the whole assembly. It's cheaper to replace it than paying a Tech to try to fix it. This meant that there was no reason to make it repairable. Other engineering constraints took priority.

This is exactly the crux of the issue. The folks bitching about lack of serviceability are failing to recognize that all they ever did was swap modular components anyway. The problem with innovative products is that they include components that are as yet uncommon and can't just be swapped out with industry standard parts from existing inventories.

I do actually perform low level repairs on my gear from time to time. I recently replaced a fried TVS diode on an HDD instead of junking it. A few minutes of research to diagnose the problem, a quick call to my local parts distributor, and a 10¢ diode and a bit of soldering saved a drive from being tossed on the trash heap. I've also replaced a CCFL lamp in an LCD panel instead of replacing the whole thing, which I wouldn't necessarily recommend. When I look at these teardowns, I never think to myself, "I'd never buy a computer with no replaceable parts." Instead I think, "Well here's a good reason to get some new tools."

Even soldered RAM is easily upgradeable... If you happen to have one of these:
344184

doobybiggs
Jun 19, 2012, 09:45 PM
...but many will fail in the first year, and many more in the next two years.

And why is a 3 year warranty standard on a $2K Dell laptop, and an option on a $2K Apple laptop???

very true, most will fail in the first year if you buy something new. I have found if it makes it out of the first year you are good for a while.

To you 2nd part ... that is easy ... because Dell understands the $2k commitment and wants to please their customers ... Apple is arrogant and knows their customers will pay for it

repoman27
Jun 19, 2012, 10:10 PM
No - you're wrong and the original poster is right - glass is a liquid, and the ripples in centuries old glass is due to gravity.

No, you're wrong. As several other posters have pointed out, glass is not a liquid; it's an amorphous solid, and the ripples are from the manufacturing process and not gravity.

...but many will fail in the first year, and many more in the next two years.

And why is a 3 year warranty standard on a $2K Dell laptop, and an option on a $2K Apple laptop???

All manufacturers build the cost of whatever warranty they offer into the selling price. OEM's are aware that the typical consumers who buy PC's at a retail store look at up front cost when they are performing comparisons but will often pay for an add-on warranty at the register. The Dell's with 3-year warranties are targeting business buyers who are more concerned with TCO and prefer having the warranty cost included in the selling price when they itemize deductions on their taxes.

Terrin
Jun 19, 2012, 10:24 PM
No need to be rude. You were referring to the ifixit site. I was referring to the Macrumor's article. I didn't read the ifixit site.


Moreover, I originally stated that many thought the display would be manufactured by Sharp, including this Site.


I wouldn't overstate your reading ability. The article says the team thinks it's LG pretty clearly. "Markings on the inverter board read LP154WT1 (SJ) (A1) GD. Given that the board is soldered to the rest of the display, it appears to be a display manufactured by LG Philips."

----------

[QUOTE=hchung;15083585]http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Retina-Display-Teardown/9493/1#.T-Ei9WJYs5s

Step 5: "Markings on the inverter board read LP154WT1 (SJ) (A1) GD. Given that the board is soldered to the rest of the display, it appears to be a display manufactured by LG Philips."

The LP prefix for LCD panel model numbers typically identifies LG Philips. (reference other older panels such as the LP141X1, LP154W1, and too many others I've long forgotten)[COLOR="#808080"]


Thank you for the explanation.

lannisters4life
Jun 19, 2012, 10:42 PM
No - you're wrong and the original poster is right - glass is a liquid, and the ripples in centuries old glass is due to gravity
Get your chemistry straight, sunshine, before cranking out more rubbish like this.

MacDownunder
Jun 19, 2012, 11:01 PM
Hasselblad... medium format is how you avoid sacrificing performance for quantity, though it comes at a price :)

The Pentax K5 delivers exceptional high ISO performance, and the just released consumer K30 is reputed to be on par as well. But like most if it's not CaNikon then people think it's rubbish...

jonnysods
Jun 19, 2012, 11:11 PM
I'm impressed!

kockgunner
Jun 19, 2012, 11:57 PM
Thanks for the reply.

I guess it really is a 'engineering marvel' if they can get it to look so good, so thing and with no glass! I too would presume that's why it doesn't say 'Macbook Pro'.

How is the bezel? Is it much smaller than the previous gen. 15"? I have the unibody 17" and the bezel is perfect proportion, however I think the 15" bezel if 10mm too thick.

No problem! I wanted to write a detailed description because I know I couldn't be the only one wondering how the Retina MBP screen is put together.

The bezel is indeed thinner and it seems like it's the same proportions relative to screen size as the 17". The whole machine seems much better proportioned just because of the thin bezel and the overall thinness of the chassis.

krzyglue
Jun 20, 2012, 01:36 AM
Gorilla Glass 2 is supposedly both stronger and flexible. The use of multiple materials to combine to make a "plastic" is likely how they do it.

Technically glass is a liquid. Many windows in old Europe have slumped to the point of having large waves in them.

BTW when they released iPhone 1 and folks asked about servicing it, they stated they would exchange hardware rather than doing repairs. That meme has arrived to the top level MacBook Pro now. That was 2007.

Rocketman

The "glass is a liquid" thing is a myth that for some reason refuses to die. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass#Glass_versus_supercooled_liquid

Back on topic, I still haven't had a chance to go into an Apple Store to see this thing for myself. I must say though I'm really really looking forward to it!

----------

Do you own a car? Can you change your car engine? Or how about a wind screen? Or hey, what happens when you need to fix a car ignition key?

The fact that this is how things often are doesn't justify it. BMW wants to charge me $250 to replace a stupid key, thanks to a design choice they made that does not allow solely the battery to be replaced. Opening the key necessitates breaking it apart, and the battery is soldered on the circuit board.. I'm not saying this is what Apple has done here, but I think the standard response of "well many things are like this" doesn't prove anything.

Truffy
Jun 20, 2012, 02:11 AM
Not sure if you looked at the linked article before posting, however it says the following on iFixit's teardown.
I had the same question as NStocks. I'm not sure if you actually read his question and your response, because it doesn't actually answer the question (I assume that you consider the text in bold to be somehow significant, but it left me :confused:) Fortunately, Kockgunner was more helpful.
The screen has no covering glass so when you press hard enough, the LCD ripples like a traditional desktop LCD monitor. However, it is harder than a traditional unprotected LCD so it kind of feels like there is still glass there and requires more pressure to get that ripple effect. I've never seen anything constructed like it and I'm really interested in how they made an LCD with without glass still look like an edge to edge black surface.

JonEC
Jun 20, 2012, 05:53 AM
The mind boggles at the supreme feat of engineering required to offer users a gimmick that has virtually zero practical benefit to true Macbook Pro-fessionals. Hey...here's an idea...let's kill the 17" that directors, editors, photographers, VFX artists and musicians REALLY use and instead give everyone more pixels crammed into 15" than they have at home on their 51" TVs. And the extra battery life we could provide by not going "Retina"? Bah humbug. While there has always been a tendency at Apple to pour on hype at the expense of practicalities, the sheer brainpower and technical proficiency that were expended to deliver this latest display of marketing-driven myopia is truly astounding. This from a disappointed Apple fan and media professional...not a troll.

jouster
Jun 20, 2012, 06:47 AM
No - you're wrong and the original poster is right - glass is a liquid, and the ripples in centuries old glass is due to gravity.


Time this myth died. (http://www.glassnotes.com/WindowPanes.html)

In other news: the RMBP screen really is extremely thin. How many generations of processor/memory/storage/everything else shrinkage are we from having the entire computer in a fifteen inch screen of the same thickness, with processing power at least equal to today's core CPUs?

frjonah
Jun 20, 2012, 06:50 AM
My understanding is that the MF bodies AF slowly if at all, that the minimum inter-frame time is measured in seconds, and their high ISO performance is limited. They're designed to be used in posed studio situations.


That's not true... I own a Hasselblad AF camera (an H3D) and can attest the rapidity of the AF. As for ISO performance, I'm not familiar with your complaint... I've had no issues in any setting with mine, it's just brilliant. The photos have a depth to them that is just amazing, and I never shoot in a studio.

The difference is, very simply, the size of the sensor... a medium format sensor is much larger than a standard format camera, which historically has driven the price up significantly. And it's the gift that keeps on giving... not only are the cameras outrageously high, but so are the lenses and everything else with the Hasselblad logo. In that respect, I do see the similarity to Apple :)

maflynn
Jun 20, 2012, 06:50 AM
I have Applecare, but doesn't Apple cover for a year without it?

Yup, applecare extends the coverage to 3 years, without it, you have the standard 1 year warranty.

jouster
Jun 20, 2012, 06:59 AM
Hasselblads are five or six times the price of a very good DSLR; twenty or thirty times the price of a starter model or good P&S; Macs are more expensive, but not by anything like as much!

But eh, I'm very envious of you for owning one! There are rumors that Hassy will bring some kind of lower-priced option to market this year. Perhaps a digital XPan (though that was actually made by Fujinon). Of course, nobody knows exactly what "low price" means in Hassy's universe.

G5isAlive
Jun 20, 2012, 07:41 AM
i was pointing out the fact that the guy is wrong who said that dell is incapable of that level of supplier influence.

....

not to go off on you, and this statement doesn't apply to you since you've been confused by other posters who have butchered my posts with selective quotes, but this server is full of borderline illiterates or people lacking even the most basic reading comprehension skills. do yourself a favor and ignore them

well at the risk of editing your post to take out the relevant technical discussion, I just wanted to say I agree with you on some of the discussions here. I do like to think the people are not illiterates, just that they don't take the time to read and think.

MacSince1990
Jun 20, 2012, 07:55 AM
Oops... iBrokeit :/

I'm not sure how this is an engineering marvel though. It's thinking outside the box, but other than that...? And since LCDs are physical pixels and not just light painted into apertures... I don't see the relevance of it being thinner in relation to increased pixel density.

maflynn
Jun 20, 2012, 07:58 AM
I hear that its a great engineering marvel and I don't doubt that, but they also said similar things regarding the G4 cube. Different issues regarding how that was one of apple's rare failures but my point here is that while its a great engineering feat how well does it handle/hold up to normal use.

No track record to definitively state one way or the other. btw, I do have one on pre-order but they don't call it bleeding edge for nothing ;)

840quadra
Jun 20, 2012, 08:37 AM
I had the same question as NStocks. I'm not sure if you actually read his question and your response, because it doesn't actually answer the question (I assume that you consider the text in bold to be somehow significant, but it left me :confused:) Fortunately, Kockgunner was more helpful.

The post you quoted was someone speculating how they 'believe' it was constructed. I still feel iFixit answered the question within the quote I sourced form their page.

I am sorry if you don't understand it, but it may also require an understanding of how LCD screens are constructed. Perhaps my having taken many apart, and fixing them has made me a bit smug over the entire subject.

I apologize if I came off as being crass, it wasn't the intent.

Mullerman
Jun 20, 2012, 09:32 AM
They broke it!!! Been there. I would lower Apples green credentials based on the inability to treat their products as modular elements assisting repair and recycling.

R2D2 xx
Jun 20, 2012, 10:03 AM
You can't have no glare. They minimized it until it was almost nothing

i know what your hidden message is -- silly.

Sackvillenb
Jun 20, 2012, 03:31 PM
All the layers on the display are pretty interesting... I'd love to take one apart... and I'm curious as to who actually makes the display too...

Max_Walker
Jun 20, 2012, 03:45 PM
Hey this is no big deal.

My son knackered his MacBook screen and Apple just replaced the whole lid assembly. It took only a few minutes and what I spent on the 'bigger' replacement part I saved on the labour cost of repair - overall we both won

praktical
Jun 20, 2012, 05:21 PM
Do you own a car? Can you change your car engine? Or how about a wind screen? Or hey, what happens when you need to fix a car ignition key?

Yes wankey I do own a car and have in fact several. I have a E36 BMW M3 and I do all my engine and electrical work myself. I have in fact changed the ignition on this car myself due to a factory issue of the barrel spinning within the steering. I consider myself a DIY expert and when it comes to fixing things or even upgrading my computers within my network I hate the fact of going out to pay for something I can clearly do myself. Apple products are pricey as they are already so I see no reason for me wanting to minimize extra unnecessary bucks for service I should be able to do myself.

Raineer
Jun 20, 2012, 10:59 PM
You guys are all so darn angry. If you don't like it - don't buy it.

If enough people skip out on it because the display isn't handyperson-replaceable, then they will go back to using a big pile of pentalobes. If it sells much better, they will stay with this design.

If you owned a manufacturing company - would you do anything differently?

frjonah
Jun 21, 2012, 10:26 AM
But eh, I'm very envious of you for owning one! There are rumors that Hassy will bring some kind of lower-priced option to market this year. Perhaps a digital XPan (though that was actually made by Fujinon). Of course, nobody knows exactly what "low price" means in Hassy's universe.

I lucked out on mine... picked it up on ebay for a song, and it turned out to be perfect (and yes, I did confirm that it wasn't stolen). And even at that, if it weren't a business expense, even that would have never happened :)

I know what you mean, though... if Hasselblad advertises something as "low-priced", it's meaningless.

As far as comparisons to Apple vs. the competition go, I think there's nothing there. Hassy charges exorbitant prices for cameras with sensors that are much larger than those in standard dSLRs... that's where most of the price difference comes from: the fact that their core technology was on a much higher level than their competition (and thus, much more expensive). Apple basically uses the same tech as their competitors and makes it work much more smoothly by caring enough about hardware/software interaction to oversee all of that themselves. They sell a complete package and, thus, achieve a level of customer satisfaction that OEMs throwing together each others products into a "laptop" will never be able to do until they figure out that it's not specs that make a computer pleasing to a customer, but the overall experience.

AidenShaw
Jun 21, 2012, 01:23 PM
No, you're wrong. As several other posters have pointed out, glass is not a liquid; it's an amorphous solid, and the ripples are from the manufacturing process and not gravity.

You're right about the ripples. I've edited my post to admit the mistake.

However, "amorphous solid" is a term to describe materials with characteristics of both a liquid and a solid.

Note that Apple is looking at using amorphous metal in its products - and the name of the supplier is Liquidmetal. ;)

wankey
Jun 22, 2012, 08:36 AM
Yes wankey I do own a car and have in fact several. I have a E36 BMW M3 and I do all my engine and electrical work myself. I have in fact changed the ignition on this car myself due to a factory issue of the barrel spinning within the steering. I consider myself a DIY expert and when it comes to fixing things or even upgrading my computers within my network I hate the fact of going out to pay for something I can clearly do myself. Apple products are pricey as they are already so I see no reason for me wanting to minimize extra unnecessary bucks for service I should be able to do myself.

It's great that you tinker with your BMW, but you sound like a mechanic who owns a BMW, not a executive who owns a BMW. People who i know own a BMW are making upwards of 80k a year, have little to no time doing electrical work on their car, meaning if their car breaks they spend a **** ton of $$$ in the shop to get it fixed because their time is money, and wasting your precious time fixing the engine when you should be golfing / meeting other potential business investors is key.

The same will happen with Macbooks and Apple, you want to cater to those with money, not the self repair enthusiast crowd. It needs to be flawless and work, and when it doesn't work you need to overwhelm them with quick 24 hour repairs when they bring it to the shop, and if you have to simply replace a screen, then all be it.

People forget Apple targets the middle - upper class market

toke lahti
Jun 25, 2012, 07:40 AM
Not sure if you looked at the linked article before posting, however it says the following on iFixit's teardown.
"[...]they used the aluminum case itself as the frame for the LCD panel and used the LCD as the front glass."
How does this differ from "normal" lcd without additional bulky glass?
Like the matte version of MBP-early2009 I'm typing this?
The AG screens on the 15" and 17" MBPs have no glare.
Of course it has glare. Anti-glare is stupid name. Most people just don't understand what "matte" does. Anti-glare does not suck the reflection, same amount of light will be reflected. It just blurs the reflection, so it doesn't annoy the watcher so much.
The only thing that will impress me with laptop displays is when they fit a RGB backlight into an assembly this small.
Otherwise it's just a compromise in performance for resolution.
Just like the megapixel wars in cameras.
High quality RGB-backlight would add 1 millimeter of thickness and 10 bucks more to the BOM if Apple engineered it right with their resources and volumes.
And this is why it will materialize on a Macintosh.
You'll have look to HP for that...
(Z1 already has true 10-bit colors!)
At least rMBP is first macbook PRO with IPS panel.
It only took a decade...

hchung
Jun 26, 2012, 07:36 PM
"[...]they used the aluminum case itself as the frame for the LCD panel and used the LCD as the front glass."
How does this differ from "normal" lcd without additional bulky glass?
Like the matte version of MBP-early2009 I'm typing this?


See here:
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Installing-MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Unibody-Late-2008-and-Early-2009-LCD/3561/6

Note that there's a piece of glass on the front. Keep paging through that take-apart.
Then there's another glass LCD panel with a frame, diffuser, and backlight.
Then there's the aluminum shell. That's the normal build for a laptop display assembly.

The Retina MBP uses the aluminium shell as both the shell and the frame instead of having them separate.
And it uses the LCD panel's glass as the front glass instead of having them separate.

toke lahti
Jun 28, 2012, 08:22 AM
See here:
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Installing-MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Unibody-Late-2008-and-Early-2009-LCD/3561/6

Note that there's a piece of glass on the front. Keep paging through that take-apart.
Then there's another glass LCD panel with a frame, diffuser, and backlight.
Then there's the aluminum shell. That's the normal build for a laptop display assembly.

The Retina MBP uses the aluminium shell as both the shell and the frame instead of having them separate.
And it uses the LCD panel's glass as the front glass instead of having them separate.
In those ifixit's photos is regular glossy version of MBP, which has additional glass (like almost no other display).
You know there's been matte version of MBP for many years, don't you?
Also Air does not have additional glass in front of the screen.

Now Apple is finally getting away of this madness of adding additional bulky glass that causes double reflections.
Tim & Ive? Only making the best products is in Apple's DNA?
Adding a useless glass bulk to you products, just because you can get higher points in recycleability but still increasing carbon footprint? (Or just because Holy Steve said so?)

So, I'll ask again: how does this retina display's panel differs from MATTE MBP's panel or Air's panel?

hchung
Jun 29, 2012, 01:42 AM
In those ifixit's photos is regular glossy version of MBP, which has additional glass (like almost no other display).
You know there's been matte version of MBP for many years, don't you?
Also Air does not have additional glass in front of the screen.

Now Apple is finally getting away of this madness of adding additional bulky glass that causes double reflections.
Tim & Ive? Only making the best products is in Apple's DNA?
Adding a useless glass bulk to you products, just because you can get higher points in recycleability but still increasing carbon footprint? (Or just because Holy Steve said so?)

So, I'll ask again: how does this retina display's panel differs from MATTE MBP's panel or Air's panel?

Ah, didn't realize you were specifically asking about matte panels.

In a "normal" matte panel (and I do recall somebody else talking about this here before), there's a sheet of plastic in front of the glass LCD panel (like the actual glass substrate with the liquid crystals and switching matrix that gives you the matte look. Glossy LCD panels are simply missing this sheet.

The frame in a "normal" display assembly is still as I described above and matches the typical MBP.

The Macbook Air is not built "normal." It's built in the same way as the Retina MBP I mentioned above. To check it out, see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHNtnvzfSzY

The Retina MBP changes things slightly from the Macbook Air recipe in that the switching matrix has more pixels (duh), there isn't the outer plastic matte layer, but there is some sort of anti-glare coating on the outmost layer of glass (where the plastic would have been).