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MacRumors
Jun 20, 2012, 09:33 AM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/20/non-retina-mid-2012-macbook-pro-torn-apart/)


It's been a busy week of Apple teardowns for iFixit, with the firm announcing (http://ifixit.org/2787/mid-2012-macbook-pro-teardown/) today that it has completed its work (http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Unibody-Mid-2012-Teardown/9515/1) on the non-Retina version of the Mid-2012 MacBook Pro.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/06/mid_2012_non_retina_macbook_pro_teardown.jpg


Given that the non-Retina version has retained the same form factor for a number of years, there are few changes to the internal layout of the components, but a fresh look inside now that the redesigned Retina MacBook Pro has been released offers some interesting comparisons of how Apple is working to reduce the size and weight of its machines.

In particular, iFixit focuses on the hard drive and RAM differences between the two machines, noting that the proprietary solid-state drive used in the Retina MacBook Pro measures only 3.16 mm thick compared to 9.45 mm for the traditional hard drive in the non-Retina version. On the RAM side, Apple has soldered the chips directly to the logic board in the Retina MacBook Pro, while the non-Retina version still retains removable RAM modules in a stacked configuration measuring 9.15 mm thick.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/06/mid_2012_non_retina_macbook_pro_logic_board.jpg


Logic board of non-Retina Mid-2012 MacBook Pro with CPU (orange), NVIDIA graphics (red), and platform controller hub (yellow)
While the Retina MacBook Pro received iFixit's lowest repairability score ever for a notebook at just 1 out of 10, the non-Retina version receives a score of 7 for its use of mostly-standard screws and its easily-accessible battery, optical drive, hard drive, and RAM. But as evidenced by the popularity of the MacBook Air and the strong reception to the Retina MacBook Pro, repairability and upgradability appear to be taking a back seat to size and weight savings in the minds of consumers as Apple pushes the envelope with highly-customized components fabricated to meet the company's design goals.

Article Link: Non-Retina Mid-2012 MacBook Pro Torn Apart (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/20/non-retina-mid-2012-macbook-pro-torn-apart/)



jamesryanbell
Jun 20, 2012, 09:38 AM
I prefer upgradable hardware, but it's pretty obvious most consumers don't.

They're going to do what they're going to do.

840quadra
Jun 20, 2012, 09:41 AM
Perhaps the last of the easy to modify MacBook Pro computers. I wonder of sales of this unit will be higher with fears of the hardware lockdown seen in other units.

Still happy with this upgrade.

butterfly0fdoom
Jun 20, 2012, 09:42 AM
In their griping about the whole RAM thing, did they take the time to measure the length and width of the socketed RAM while they were at it? Just from looking at the size of the SO-DIMMS and their connectors, I'm pretty sure it'd still occupy more surface area of the board than the current patch of soldered RAM chips.

D.T.
Jun 20, 2012, 09:42 AM
But as evidenced by the popularity of the MacBook Air and the strong reception to the Retina MacBook Pro, repairability and upgradability appear to be taking a back seat to size and weight savings in the minds of consumers as Apple pushes the envelope with highly-customized components fabricated to meet the company's design goals.

Exactly. People buy machines, use them for a practical life cycle, without that much concern about repair logistics outside of the warranty, especially with Applecare giving you 3 years of not having to worry.

It’s not like 2-3 year old notebooks from any source are all that repairable. I’ve got old notebooks from a number of manufactures with bad motherboards, keyboards, trackpads, displays, none of which have a replacement source.

Rockoar
Jun 20, 2012, 09:43 AM
When you know Apple likes to charge premium for RAM and HDD, hardware upgrade option > Retina display all the way.

unplugme71
Jun 20, 2012, 09:44 AM
I'll take thinner, lighter, and longer battery life over upgrade options any day. I'll just buy the specs I want up front even if its costs a bit more and don't yet require it.

Apple also needs to know that replacing the board is going to be expensive so consumers aren't going to like it if they can't get it replaced cost effectively after the AppleCare expires. I seriously would spend a little more to get an extended 4 or 5 yr coverage rather than spend 800-1500 to replace internals.

spazzcat
Jun 20, 2012, 09:45 AM
I prefer upgradable hardware, but it's pretty obvious most consumers don't.

They're going to do what they're going to do.

Other than memory, I would say 99% people never upgrade anything on their laptops.

Rocketman
Jun 20, 2012, 09:46 AM
But as evidenced by the popularity of the MacBook Air and the strong reception to the Retina MacBook Pro, repairability and upgradability appear to be taking a back seat to size and weight savings in the minds of consumers as Apple pushes the envelope with highly-customized components fabricated to meet the company's design goals. There is no causation. People are just buying the new shiny and getting whatever they get as regards repairability and upgradability.

Rocketman

Prof.
Jun 20, 2012, 09:47 AM
Good to know the new MBP is still easy to upgrade. Mine should be here next tuesday or wednesday. :)

maflynn
Jun 20, 2012, 09:48 AM
Other than memory, I would say 99% people never upgrade anything on their laptops.

I'd say the reason behind that is because outside of memory the only other upgradeable component is the hard drive ;)

RoboCop001
Jun 20, 2012, 09:51 AM
Wow that's quite the compact-looking board!

So every manufacturer buys loose chips and parts from an Intel chipset, and then a company like Foxconn just puts it all together according to specs?

jamesryanbell
Jun 20, 2012, 09:52 AM
Other than memory, I would say 99% people never upgrade anything on their laptops.

I'd say 95%, but hey who's counting? lol

Laco
Jun 20, 2012, 09:52 AM
Instead of tearing it apart next time just send it to me and I will tell you it is amazing!

cgk.emu
Jun 20, 2012, 09:53 AM
I'd say the reason behind that is because outside of memory the only other upgradeable component is the hard drive ;)

I disagree. I work in IT, as well as teach IT related courses. The vast majority of users don't even know they can upgrade their machines. A laptop is limited of course, but even the concept of putting a stick of RAM in a machine makes most users glaze over. Folks buy machines to use them, when they don't work anymore or are too slow they buy new ones, simple as that.

Vantage Point
Jun 20, 2012, 09:53 AM
Ability to upgrade both memory (as prices drop) and hard drives is very appealing to me, as well as the price. The retina display is nice but not a big deal for myself so I personally would upgrade, when the time comes, to the non-retina. By that time 16gb of ram will be dirt cheap and bigger hard drives cheaper - but the price for these option from apple will hold fast.

cgk.emu
Jun 20, 2012, 09:54 AM
I'd say 95%, but hey who's counting? lol

heh, well, the actual numbers would be very difficult to gather accurately.

unplugme71
Jun 20, 2012, 09:56 AM
I'd say the reason behind that is because outside of memory the only other upgradeable component is the hard drive ;)

Agreed, unless you can cross upgrade from different models. Not likely in Apple's case, but some manufacturers have boards that fit in different models.

macse30
Jun 20, 2012, 09:57 AM
Natural progression. How many people work on their new car these days?

AustinIllini
Jun 20, 2012, 10:03 AM
Natural progression. How many people work on their new car these days?

Good point. I would never touch my car's interior. Of course, I don't know anything about car parts.

shurcooL
Jun 20, 2012, 10:06 AM
For me, upgrading sucks anyway. Suppose I get a laptop with 8 GB and decide to upgrade to 16 GB. Now I have to pay for 16 GB of RAM, replace it, and then what do I do with the old 8 GB? Try to sell it? Give it to someone?

I'll just buy 16 GB to begin with and never have to worry.

By the time 3-4 years pass and 16 GB becomes little, the rest of the machine will be equally outdated - the CPU will be slow, the SSD will be small, the graphics card will be old. Then I upgrade the whole machine at once, and sell the old one for whatever it's worth (or pass on to family).

When you make things upgradeable, in addition to making the machine heavier/bulkier and with less battery life, you have things like this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1389924) happen. :rolleyes:

I do understand for certain people upgradable laptops are preferred, and I'm happy Apple still sells the old MBP so everyone can get what they want.

wovel
Jun 20, 2012, 10:06 AM
Other than memory, I would say 99% people never upgrade anything on their laptops.

So now just spend the $100 and max it out to start with. This is only 20-30% over doing it your self. (Unless you like to buy bargain basement ram).

Daalseth
Jun 20, 2012, 10:07 AM
This is my computer: 2.3Ghz, 4Gb RAM, 500Gb HD. It arrives tomorrow. The only difference is that I ordered the Hi Def display. It's good to see that it's so user serviceable.

I figure I'll keep it about 6+ years. Over that time I expect to be upgrading the RAM and replacing both the HDD and Optical Drive with SS Drives, not to mention opening it up once in a while to blow out the dust bunnies. Then somewhere around 2018-2020 we'll see what Apple is selling.

Thunderhawks
Jun 20, 2012, 10:08 AM
I disagree. I work in IT, as well as teach IT related courses. The vast majority of users don't even know they can upgrade their machines. A laptop is limited of course, but even the concept of putting a stick of RAM in a machine makes most users glaze over. Folks buy machines to use them, when they don't work anymore or are too slow they buy new ones, simple as that.

Maybe all the PRO users should take note that using a PRO labeled product doesn't mean PRO, as in being able to tinker with every component in there or upgrade the system after 3 years (like somebody posted)

This is what works best:

Get what you need for what you need it.
Buy Apple Care and after 3 years buy the latest model, then...

Get what you need for what you need it.
Buy Apple Care and after 3 years buy the latest model, then...

Get what you need for what you need it.
Buy Apple Care and after 3 years buy the latest model, then...

Get what you need for what you need it.
Buy Apple Care and after 3 years buy the latest model, then...

Get what you need for what you need it.
Buy Apple Care and after 3 years buy the latest model, then...

Prof.
Jun 20, 2012, 10:09 AM
This is my computer: 2.3Ghz, 4Gb RAM, 500Gb HD. It arrives tomorrow. The only difference is that I ordered the Hi Def display. It's good to see that it's so user serviceable.

I figure I'll keep it about 6+ years. Over that time I expect to be upgrading the RAM and replacing both the HDD and Optical Drive with SS Drives, not to mention opening it up once in a while to blow out the dust bunnies. Then somewhere around 2018-2020 we'll see what Apple is selling.
This is pretty much exactly my plan for my new MBP.

By 2020, we'll have 64/128GB RAM. :eek:

nagromme
Jun 20, 2012, 10:10 AM
I used to demand upgradability; I almost sprung for a Mac Pro instead of an iMac years ago! Iím glad I saved the money. Because I realized... I like the IDEA of gutting my machine and changing parts, but in practice? I almost never do so.

Iím glad thicker MacBook Pros exist for those who want them... for now...

Codyak
Jun 20, 2012, 10:10 AM
So now just spend the $100 and max it out to start with. This is only 20-30% over doing it your self. (Unless you like to buy bargain basement ram).

That's what I did, just picked 16 gigs for it and even though I can't put more, I don't see myself need much more by the time the rest is obsolete. I have my custom built PC for tinkering with anyway. ;)

blumpkin
Jun 20, 2012, 10:10 AM
A lot of the talk around here about upgrading components, etc. reminds me of this video.

http://youtu.be/WWnAdB-vkXo

RalfTheDog
Jun 20, 2012, 10:11 AM
The most important factor for me is screen size. The bigger the screen, the better. Next is RAM, followed closely by HD space. Battery life comes next, followed by a good keyboard. If my 17 inch MBP were to mass twice as much, I would not care. Laptops are light; I don't understand why anyone would have a hard time carrying one around.

If they were to shave off a few pounds on the MP, without harming performance or upgradeability, I would not be that upset. Not that I take my MP out to work in the field.

Prof.
Jun 20, 2012, 10:14 AM
The most important factor for me is screen size. The bigger the screen, the better. Next is RAM, followed closely by HD space. Battery life comes next, followed by a good keyboard. If my 17 inch MBP were to mass twice as much, I would not care. Laptops are light; I don't understand why anyone would have a hard time carrying one around.

If they were to shave off a few pounds on the MP, without harming performance or upgradeability, I would not be that upset. Not that I take my MP out to work in the field.
What, you don't want to be one of these people? :D:cool:
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/starbuck_full.png

CUsurfer
Jun 20, 2012, 10:17 AM
No mention of whether it has the new asymmetrical fans?

shurcooL
Jun 20, 2012, 10:18 AM
Ability to upgrade both memory (as prices drop) and hard drives is very appealing to me, as well as the price. The retina display is nice but not a big deal for myself so I personally would upgrade, when the time comes, to the non-retina. By that time 16gb of ram will be dirt cheap and bigger hard drives cheaper - but the price for these option from apple will hold fast.
Yes, this is the extra price of having a lighter & thinner laptop with longer battery life. It is obviously not free.

In the end, the choice is yours. rMBP or MBP. Pick whatever you'll enjoy more.

For me, I'll take the rMBP. If I'm already paying over 2 grand for a kickass laptop, I'm not gonna get a worse one just to save a few hundred bucks.

maflynn
Jun 20, 2012, 10:22 AM
No mention of whether it has the new asymmetrical fans?

I think during the keynote it was mentioned that only the retina MBP has these new fans. The non retina MBP has the traditional fans

a.gomez
Jun 20, 2012, 10:22 AM
nice, this is the working designers laptop - I see the retina version as the person with a Mahogany Drawing pencil... yeah nice, but no real need.

Good to see that Apple still understands that Just because 95% of the population does not have the ability to upgrade or trouble shoot their own unit it does not mean he other 5% want to pretent they are that incompetent.

jt562
Jun 20, 2012, 10:23 AM
Now that is how a laptop should look like torn apart, NOT a single board...like a phone or a MACBOOK PRO RETINA...:eek:

Mr. Retrofire
Jun 20, 2012, 10:24 AM
For me, upgrading sucks anyway. Suppose I get a laptop with 8 GB and decide to upgrade to 16 GB. Now I have to pay for 16 GB of RAM, replace it, and then what do I do with the old 8 GB? Try to sell it? Give it to someone?
If you plan ahead, you can use the "old" 8 GB in a similar machine from the same year (Mac mini or MBP).

I'll just buy 16 GB to begin with and never have to worry.
In 2011, the cost for standard 1333 MHz 16 GB RAM for Sandy Bridge MBPs was in the range of 1500 US$, IIRC.

Daalseth
Jun 20, 2012, 10:33 AM
No mention of whether it has the new asymmetrical fans?
Actually they do, but it's easy to miss. It doesn't.

shurcooL
Jun 20, 2012, 10:34 AM
I have to admit, having user-upgradable RAM and hard-drive is very useful when buying an older used machine from someone. Much less so when buying a new one from Apple directly (that you can customize to your needs).

Ben8472
Jun 20, 2012, 10:36 AM
Actually they do, but it's easy to miss. It doesn't.

its funny how all these self called experts on the forum claimed that they certainly didnt get the new fans.

ill be getting a 2012 mbp next thing :)


EDIT: OK according to the ifixit teardown note the regular 2012 mbp does NOT have asymetric fan blades, allthough they look very different to me (must research hehe)

Delegator
Jun 20, 2012, 10:38 AM
I used to build my own PCs from parts. I got sick of dealing with the Windows ecosystem and being part-time tech support, so I switched to the Mac ecosystem to get a computer that just works.

Even so, on my current MBP (late 2008) I have upgraded the RAM from 4GB to 8GB, and the disk from the original 320BB (I think) to 512GB. Those were easy. I am a gamer, so I appreciate the dedicated graphics. I sometimes run multiple VMs at the same time, so I need the RAM.

So, you'd think I would be the bullseye on the demographic target for the non-Retina MBP. However, a few things have changed to make that no longer the case. First, hardware requirements simply aren't advancing as fast as they used to. The games coming out this year will run on 3-year-old hardware. I no longer try to keep up with expanding disk space requirements by upgrading my laptop; I store lots of stuff on my NAS drive instead and only tote around what I need to have locally.

The only thing I might want to upgrade is the RAM, maybe in 3-4 years. It's hard to tell whether that will happen or not. If I order a Retina MBP it'll have the full 16GB for sure.

So, the benefits of upgradability have decreased over the past 3 or so years. But, the benefits that accrue from the non-upgradability (lighter weight and smaller size) are ones I crave. Some laptops never leave the house, but I put on over 100,000 miles of travel per year. I have been saying for 2+ years that a 15" MacBook Air is my dream machine, but only if they would include dedicated graphics. And then they went and did it.

My bet is that the cohort of power users who really need upgradability is a subset of those who think they want it, and that the latter is a relatively small minority of the potential Mac base. For those people, the non-Retina MBP is still here, but I bet this will be the last iteration thereof. Maybe a speed bump in the winter, but after that we'll be looking at these things the same way we do iPads and iPhones.

WestonHarvey1
Jun 20, 2012, 10:38 AM
There's only two things you'd want to be able to upgrade in the new MBP. Ram and disk.

You'll be able to upgrade the disk later, but never the RAM. So just upgrade it ahead of time and get the max configuration.

You may miss that feeling of rejuvenation you get years down the road when you do a RAM upgrade, but on the flip side you get to spend all those years already having the most RAM the machine can use.

lifeinhd
Jun 20, 2012, 10:41 AM
But as evidenced by the popularity of the MacBook Air and the strong reception to the Retina MacBook Pro, repairability and upgradability appear to be taking a back seat to size and weight savings in the minds of consumers as Apple pushes the envelope with highly-customized components fabricated to meet the company's design goals.

For me, it's not so much the size and weight savings-- I was set on a 17" MBP before Apple axed it. It's the Retina display, standard SSD, low(er) glare display, and reasonably good value that sold me.

And yes, for what you're getting, it _is_ good value. Try spec'ing out a regular 15" MBP on Apple's site to match the specs of the rMBP and look at the price difference.

Mad-B-One
Jun 20, 2012, 10:42 AM
Maybe all the PRO users should take note that using a PRO labeled product doesn't mean PRO, as in being able to tinker with every component in there or upgrade the system after 3 years (like somebody posted)


I shrunk your post a little...

I agree. The Pro is just the Top-Of-The-Line product when it comes to what it can do. There are two ways to go about it if you want one: If you are willing to buy a new laptop every 3 years - or you think you will not need the laptop for more than three years, you can opt for the Retina version and buy the 3 year extended service plan to cover your asset. If you have an occasional mobile use only or want to use it "until it breaks down" and don't need the high resolution (most of us dont "need" it - it's just a cool feature to have), you can go with the other, cheaper version and either buy the extended warranty for 3 years or not - but you can definitely get parts to replace for longer in case it starts to cause minor trouble (e.g. battery issues) afterwards, let's say 4 years, without using an expensive Apple repair.

kingtj
Jun 20, 2012, 10:43 AM
More accurately, you've got several factors at play.

1. The switch from HDD to SSD gives a big boost to the reliability factor of the drives. People traditionally had concerns about laptop hard drives being easily accessible/replaceable because we all know hard drives can and do fail pretty regularly (especially in portables where shock/vibration is a factor). With solid state drives, it's more reasonable to assume the one built into a new notebook will last as long as the rest of the machine.

2. RAM prices have dropped considerably, vs. the amount of RAM most people want to see in a typical machine they use. Not that long ago, it really helped make a laptop's price point more attractive if the manufacturer skimped on RAM and just let the user buy and install that later. I still dislike RAM soldered onto the boards, BUT at least now, it's not that big a deal to just buy the new Macbook Pro with the amount of RAM you want and be done with it.

The biggest downside I see to Apple's latest machines being so non user-serviceable is the cost of out-of-warranty repairs. I never spent the money on AppleCare for my Mac portables in the past -- assuming (so far, rightly so) that most things that would fail on me would do so in that first year of use. Now, they're really increasing your risk if you go that route.


I prefer upgradable hardware, but it's pretty obvious most consumers don't.

They're going to do what they're going to do.

JGIGS
Jun 20, 2012, 10:44 AM
Other than memory, I would say 99% people never upgrade anything on their laptops.

They may not upgrade anything but if you keep it longer then 3 years (new unibodies) you probably need to replace that battery which apparently will cost $200 but most will only have to do this once at most before the laptop needs to be replaced.

That being said it cost me about $100 every two years to replace my pre unibody 2008 mbp battery so probably works out to be the same. I'd still go retina and maybe boost up the ram to future proof (though probably not necessary for my use). You can always use an external hard for large files if need be.

The form factor and screen are just so nice. My eyes are definitely sensitive enough to tell the difference from my brief experience. The only thing I don't like is some pictures on website don't render properly since they need to be stretched or double pixeled to be retina.

shurcooL
Jun 20, 2012, 10:46 AM
Actually they do [mention it], but it's easy to miss. It doesn't [have the new asymmetrical fans].
its funny how all these self called experts on the forum claimed that they certainly didnt get the new fans.

ill be getting a 2012 mbp next thing :)
:confused: And they were right?

faroZ06
Jun 20, 2012, 10:49 AM
Shouldn't the high-end pro-model of the MacBook Pro have upgradeable RAM? The cheaper one has it. Is this like a cheap hotel vs expensive hotel where the expensive one expects you to spend money while the cheap one has free wifi and stuff?

JHankwitz
Jun 20, 2012, 10:50 AM
I'll take thinner, lighter, and longer battery life over upgrade options any day.

Isn't that a bit like requesting a quart of beer in a pint glass?

jonnysods
Jun 20, 2012, 10:50 AM
It's so much better to be able to replace your own ram and drives.

faroZ06
Jun 20, 2012, 10:54 AM
For me, upgrading sucks anyway. Suppose I get a laptop with 8 GB and decide to upgrade to 16 GB. Now I have to pay for 16 GB of RAM, replace it, and then what do I do with the old 8 GB? Try to sell it? Give it to someone?

You should consider upgrading to 16GB instead of getting it initially because it saves a lot of money:

- Applecare costs more if you buy more initial RAM.
- The cost of buying 16GB of RAM minus the money you get from selling the 8GB is usually a lot less than the extra money you pay for 16GB instead of 8GB. Sometimes, you don't even need to sell the 8GB to save money. Do the research first, though. Also, the 8GB sticks you sell tend to go for higher prices because you can say that they were from an iMac and are Apple-labeled or whatever.
- The task of upgrading is easy to do.

JHankwitz
Jun 20, 2012, 10:56 AM
Natural progression. How many people work on their new car these days?

You've got that right. All I'll ever touch on my Prius is the oil dip-stick, windshield washer fluid, and tire air pressure. Everything else is off-limits.

nikhsub1
Jun 20, 2012, 10:58 AM
Natural progression. How many people work on their new car these days?
Raises hand. Anyway, I have been one of those that was annoyed with the non serviceability of this new machine. The fact is, the only upgradeable thing we are losing (well you since I don't have one) is the RAM. I have no doubt that in time, companies will make the proprietary SSD's for these machines, in fact I would bet they are already working on them now. Since I am in IT and have torn my laptops completely apart before (remember the horrendous thermal paste applications back in the day in the MBP's), the no serviceability does make me a bit sad but as has been said 99% would never dream of it. http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=316736 Seems to me that these new machines should come with a 3 year warranty off the bat since it is pretty much required. Also, I don't see why the retina screen can't be put on the 'old' MBP just the same?

HishamAkhtar
Jun 20, 2012, 11:06 AM
This is my computer: 2.3Ghz, 4Gb RAM, 500Gb HD. It arrives tomorrow. The only difference is that I ordered the Hi Def display. It's good to see that it's so user serviceable.

I figure I'll keep it about 6+ years. Over that time I expect to be upgrading the RAM and replacing both the HDD and Optical Drive with SS Drives, not to mention opening it up once in a while to blow out the dust bunnies. Then somewhere around 2018-2020 we'll see what Apple is selling.

Good luck running your laptop for 8 years. Upgrading the HDD and RAM will not make up for the fact that your fans will probably need to be replaced, your battery will be DONE and your processor will not be able to handle basic commands required.

blue22
Jun 20, 2012, 11:06 AM
The most important factor for me is screen size. The bigger the screen, the better. Next is RAM, followed closely by HD space. Battery life comes next, followed by a good keyboard. If my 17 inch MBP were to mass twice as much, I would not care. Laptops are light; I don't understand why anyone would have a hard time carrying one around.

If they were to shave off a few pounds on the MP, without harming performance or upgradeability, I would not be that upset. Not that I take my MP out to work in the field.

What, you don't want to be one of these people? :D:cool:
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/starbuck_full.png

LOL!!!!! And bravo to the guy in Starbucks who snapped this picture. :cool:

zoetmb
Jun 20, 2012, 11:09 AM
I prefer upgradable hardware, but it's pretty obvious most consumers don't.

They're going to do what they're going to do.

It's not that consumers don't prefer upgradable hardware, it's that Apple isn't giving them a choice and they still want the Mac. They're buying in spite of the fact that it's not upgradable , not because of it.

Personally, I think this is a disaster, especially in a machine labeled "Pro". If you buy a new computer every two years, it's probably not an issue, but I like to keep my machines much longer than that and one of the reasons I've always loved Apple is because most of their machines actually were still viable (with upgrades) after many years (as opposed to almost every PC I've ever had the misfortune of being forced to use).

I used my G4 tower for something like 7 years before giving it away and it still worked perfectly. It just wouldn't do heavy video editing and it was slow on very large Photoshop files.

My MacBook Pro laptop (from late 2008, I think) is great because I replaced the battery late last year and also replaced the hard disk with a faster model with more capacity. I was able to do this myself and I don't consider myself to be a tech.

Aside from productivity issues, there are security issues associated with delivering your machine to Apple for several days to fix/upgrade (if it will be possible at all on future machines, if the Retina machine is any indication.)

IMO, we're taking major steps backwards, all in the name of saving 1/4" of thickness. Not worth it, IMO. And I believe it will alienate certain segments of the user community. Do you reallky think developers will want a machine that they can't upgrade or switch storage/battery out of? Would it really have been so hard for Apple to keep the memory pluggable and place the SSD at the bottom of the machine beneath an access cover? They're supposed to be geniuses at engineering and they can't manage these basics?

They're supposed to be environmentally friendly, but we're now expected to toss these machines when we need more memory or storage space?

senthor
Jun 20, 2012, 11:13 AM
I find it pretty interesting that Apple uses almost the same parts in the MBP15'' as in the MBPR15''. There are different platform controller hubs (slightly higher part number in the MBP15''), the MBPR has a discrete Thunderbolt controller. For the rest, it's almost the same.

gpzjock
Jun 20, 2012, 11:15 AM
For me, upgrading sucks anyway. Suppose I get a laptop with 8 GB and decide to upgrade to 16 GB. Now I have to pay for 16 GB of RAM, replace it, and then what do I do with the old 8 GB? Try to sell it? Give it to someone?


.

I looked at upping the RAM in my Mum's 13"MBP at the point of sale, they wanted £280 for 8GB in 2011. She managed fine with 4 GB for 8 months then I replaced it with £36 worth of 8 GB Corsair RAM. Simple choice but only if they let it be a choice. I intend to swap in a 256GB SSD when they become more affordable too. Apple wanted £800 for one when it was bought......
The 4 GB I took out of her MBP I sold on to a nice young lady for £20, including fitting it in her i5 iMac. She was overjoyed cos she had no clue where to put it.

Upgrades extend lifespan of good quality machinery like the stuff Apple make.
Soldering and gluing in easily replaceable items forces you away from such extensions of lifespan. I have a 3 year upgrade cycle on non upgradeable tech, my Mac Pro will still be busting its chops to do its job long after.
2008 - 2012 and still trucking on 2 RAM upgrades, 2 GFX card swaps and an extra 3 TB of storage, some of it SSD.

To use another silly car analogy, you don't replace the whole engine when your exhaust rots through, so why weld it to the block?

jnpy!$4g3cwk
Jun 20, 2012, 11:28 AM
Also, I don't see why the retina screen can't be put on the 'old' MBP just the same?

Absolutely. This is my main gripe -- I want the Retina screen in the non-Retina body.

Good luck running your laptop for 8 years. Upgrading the HDD and RAM will not make up for the fact that your fans will probably need to be replaced, your battery will be DONE and your processor will not be able to handle basic commands required.

I have a 7 year old MBP that is still running just fine -- with memory upgraded and disk replaced. Strangely, the original battery is still OK, although I expect it to fail soon. PPC Firefox still works. Likewise 5 year old MacBook and MacBook Pro. New disks, memory maxed out, still work just fine.

justperry
Jun 20, 2012, 11:37 AM
Also, I don't see why the retina screen can't be put on the 'old' MBP just the same?

Aren't the cables different?


Absolutely. This is my main gripe -- I want the Retina screen in the non-Retina body.

I have a 7 year old MBP that is still running just fine -- with memory upgraded and disk replaced. Strangely, the original battery is still OK, although I expect it to fail soon. PPC Firefox still works. Likewise 5 year old MacBook and MacBook Pro. New disks, memory maxed out, still work just fine.

Ha, PPC Firefox on a MBP.:rolleyes:


I for one will not buy the retina MacbookPro, first of all it has less ports and second of all the non serviceable parts inside, the normal MacbookPro is much better IMHO.

salmoally
Jun 20, 2012, 11:38 AM
PC tower users love to bang on about upgradeability but in actual fact what they are doing is buying a whole new computer every few years anyways.

This is how PC upgrading goes:

- Want a new processor with new architecture
- Ok so now I need a new motherboard
- Now I need faster Ram in more quantity to get the most out of my processor
- Ah damn my power supply isn't powerful enough, upgrade that too
- Hmm my Graphics card seems to be the bottleneck, I'll get a new one

It's like saying you used the same broom for 20 years but you changed the handle 15 times and the head 14 times...

heisetax
Jun 20, 2012, 11:43 AM
Perhaps the last of the easy to modify MacBook Pro computers. I wonder of sales of this unit will be higher with fears of the hardware lockdown seen in other units.

Still happy with this upgrade.

They will be by people like me. I was forced into finding a couple of the 2.5 GHz 17" MacBook Pros as Apple no longer makes them. It would have been easier to just purchase them from Apple. This sudden demise of the 17" model shows that Apple does not feel bad in removing our choices.

It is so easy to change the hard drive & memory in these 17" laptops. The battery looks very easy also. There are only screws & a connector to remove & replace.

To me if Apple has plans to keep the 13" & 15" MacBook Pros in the lower dpi schemes they would have changed the unit to include 2 ThunderBolt ports. But then due to its already over smallness there is only room for one.

Apple is getting worse with their form over function rule. I want something big enough to do the job. The 17" model already requires me to carry a keyboard & trackball. The older style 15" would require a second screen to see what I used to see. The the hi dpi, so called retina, display will require external drives & adapters for everything, even the AC power connector. This makes this new so called super light MacBook Pro to weigh in at a greater weight than my so called too big & heavy to be a laptop 17" MacBook Pros.

adildacoolset
Jun 20, 2012, 11:52 AM
I disagree. I work in IT, as well as teach IT related courses. The vast majority of users don't even know they can upgrade their machines. A laptop is limited of course, but even the concept of putting a stick of RAM in a machine makes most users glaze over. Folks buy machines to use them, when they don't work anymore or are too slow they buy new ones, simple as that.

It's a harsh reality. As much as some love upgrading, money talks...

heisetax
Jun 20, 2012, 11:58 AM
Other than memory, I would say 99% people never upgrade anything on their laptops.

But not being one of those 99% I do change mine at least every year. I formed a company policy 10-15 years ago that all hard drives must be removed from mainline service each 12 months. At that time the old drive becomes the top backup drive with the old main backup drive moving down the chain & so on until all of my drives are used up.

This policy has meant that we have had zero hard drive hard crashes. SSD drives are said to have a limited life span. It needs replacement even more than a hard drive does in a high write to usage.

I've changed out optical drives for a faster drive or to make room for a 2nd hard drive or a SSD. That is not really wasted space. What we need are more options for the space that the optical drive uses. A second SATA connector would be great. Thus a second HDD plus a 3rd SSD.

Memory is usually only done once. But memory can go bad. Also from time to time more memory can be added to MacBook Pros than Apple will sell. Like I have 16 GB of ram in my last 2 17" MacBook Pros. Something that Apple would not even offer us even at their normally higher prices. The same goes for the 2 year old Mac Pros.

Company requirements means that the 15" Retina MacBook Pro is not even allowed in the group of choices. This doesn't even have anything to do with the pentalope screwdriver needed to open the case.

vpro
Jun 20, 2012, 12:09 PM
You can talk - money doesn't talk.

It is not the responsibility of the corporations to do justice and make life easy for us. It is your responsibility to smarten up and know where your money is going.

All this justification for spending more up front for things "you don't really need now" is like taking out life insurance, I don't know when I might need a hip replacement or a lung machine, oh alright I'll check off this box and pay more every month just in case..

Money has to be earned, you think you're always going to stay young and invincible and always have money to throw away or something? That is what apple is banking on, they are no longer interested in the pro users with what they pulled from under all of us.

We give our money over so easily to essentially give more power to the corporations to do what ever they like while giving back only ant's turd in return. Some people can stomach that but I certainly wont.

It is just apple showing off, oh ya -- you guys think you have the ultrabook thing all figured out, BAMMMMM - check this out suckas - we'll take over that sector too nah nah nah boo boo - you get to eat poo ! ETC ETC ETC..

We're consumers caught in the middle of a school playground fight.

Daalseth
Jun 20, 2012, 12:12 PM
Good luck running your laptop for 8 years. Upgrading the HDD and RAM will not make up for the fact that your fans will probably need to be replaced, your battery will be DONE and your processor will not be able to handle basic commands required.
And on this unit I CAN replace the battery and fans. The processor is a concern but I kept my G4 PowerBook for 7 years so there's a chance.

stylinexpat
Jun 20, 2012, 12:18 PM
Natural progression. How many people work on their new car these days?

Imagine a new car which comes with non-replaceable batteries and spark plugs. Imagine if it had to be taken to the dealer to get repaired and they only offered you a 1 year warranty but of course you could fork out the extra dough for a basic 2 year extension to get the basic 3 year warranty. I can just see the anger of consumers if they made cars with non-replaceable parts to where one could not service their car outside of the original manufacturer's dealership. To make cars smaller and lighter for better fuel economy everything will now built into the main engine.

The-Pro
Jun 20, 2012, 12:20 PM
What a pitty it doesnt have asymeytrical fans like the air and retina pro. I was hoping I could buy some that were in the new MBP (if it would have them) and replace the ones in mine.
Oh well, maybe I will upgrade :)

Nostromo
Jun 20, 2012, 12:31 PM
If I max out the RAM from the start I don't really need removable RAM.

With Applecare I have three years of no problems.

After it runs out, of course, and there's RAM trouble, you can't fix it yourself.

But, honestly, that's a risk I'm willing to take. I think RAM is very reliable nowadays, and my old iMac still has his original RAM.

Ben8472
Jun 20, 2012, 12:37 PM
What a pitty it doesnt have asymeytrical fans like the air and retina pro. I was hoping I could buy some that were in the new MBP (if it would have them) and replace the ones in mine.
Oh well, maybe I will upgrade :)

asymetrical fans upgrade would be a great kickstarter project! :)

Mad-B-One
Jun 20, 2012, 12:38 PM
Shouldn't the high-end pro-model of the MacBook Pro have upgradeable RAM? The cheaper one has it. Is this like a cheap hotel vs expensive hotel where the expensive one expects you to spend money while the cheap one has free wifi and stuff?

Not if the maximum amount of RAM the chipset/CPU can handle is already offered. It wouldn't make sense. As an example, I have an AMD 990X chipset supporting 16GB RAM. If it would be sothered to my MB instead of in a slot, there would not be any difference. Even putting in more RAM with more capacity would result in only having 16GB addressable through chipset and CPU.

G5isAlive
Jun 20, 2012, 01:00 PM
I have to admit, having user-upgradable RAM and hard-drive is very useful when buying an older used machine from someone. Much less so when buying a new one from Apple directly (that you can customize to your needs).

yes! the cost is not just the upfront cost, but the back side cost of more limited resell potential. because I have bought used machines specifically with the intent of upgrading them.

but times change. can't complain too much that Apple is in business to be in business. they have hit upon a strategy to reduce product lifetime cycles.

Navdakilla
Jun 20, 2012, 01:04 PM
I like what I see

MrCrowbar
Jun 20, 2012, 01:05 PM
This is my computer: 2.3Ghz, 4Gb RAM, 500Gb HD. It arrives tomorrow. The only difference is that I ordered the Hi Def display. It's good to see that it's so user serviceable.

I figure I'll keep it about 6+ years. Over that time I expect to be upgrading the RAM and replacing both the HDD and Optical Drive with SS Drives, not to mention opening it up once in a while to blow out the dust bunnies. Then somewhere around 2018-2020 we'll see what Apple is selling.

Battery will start to be useless in 3 years, the then current Mac OS version will not run at all on the machine in 4 years and resale value will be gone in 5 years... Just sell it on eBay after 3 years and get the next thing. Costs about the same, but you'll have a more current machine that can run modern things smoothly and with full battery life.

You could also upgrade to the newest thing as soon as it comes out, take a day to transfer all your stuff to the new one and see if everything works out as you want it and sell the old one on eBay before mainstream people notice it's not the current model. This way you spend about 300 bucks per year and always have the current Macbook Pro or iMac.

Ubele
Jun 20, 2012, 01:09 PM
PC tower users love to bang on about upgradeability but in actual fact what they are doing is buying a whole new computer every few years anyways.

This is how PC upgrading goes:

- Want a new processor with new architecture
- Ok so now I need a new motherboard
- Now I need faster Ram in more quantity to get the most out of my processor
- Ah damn my power supply isn't powerful enough, upgrade that too
- Hmm my Graphics card seems to be the bottleneck, I'll get a new one

It's like saying you used the same broom for 20 years but you changed the handle 15 times and the head 14 times...

LOL! I did that with my 2000 G4 "Sawtooth" Mac: replaced the hard drive with a bigger one, added a second hard drive, increased the RAM, replaced the CD burner with a SuperDrive, upgraded the graphics card, upgraded the processor with an OWC unit, added a USB 2 card, and replaced the hard drives with bigger ones. I got 8 years out of it, and passed it to my dad, who got 2 more years out of it before the graphics card failed. In retrospect, it wouldn't have cost me any more to replace the computer at the 4-year mark, but it did spread the cost out (at any given time, it was easier to justify spending a couple hundred bucks on an upgrade, rather than a couple grand on a new computer), and I got a certain geeky satisfaction from doing my own upgrades and learning how my computer worked under the hood.

I was one of those people who kept holding out for a new mid-range tower from Apple, and when I finally accepted it wasn't going to happen, I got a new MBP in early 2008. I upgraded the RAM and the hard drive, and now I'm debating whether to extend its life for another year or two with an SSD drive, as it's finally starting to feel slow to me. So while I've historically been into upgrading hardware components (I've been into computers since the early 1980s, and I built and upgraded my own DOS and Windows PCs before I switched to Macs), I'm taking an approach of Zen-like acceptance to the likelihood that those days will soon be over.

Bigskygangsta
Jun 20, 2012, 01:26 PM
If you're planning to get this machine, it has plenty of RAM. If you're just wanting to reinforce your geekness with your non-techno friends, then just tell them you upgraded your machine and its ranked 1 out of 10 on ifixit's hardest to crack boxes. That will be even more impressive than having it laid out open on your mom's kitchen table.

----------

Battery will start to be useless in 3 years, the then current Mac OS version will not run at all on the machine in 4 years and resale value will be gone in 5 years... Just sell it on eBay after 3 years and get the next thing. Costs about the same, but you'll have a more current machine that can run modern things smoothly and with full battery life.

You could also upgrade to the newest thing as soon as it comes out, take a day to transfer all your stuff to the new one and see if everything works out as you want it and sell the old one on eBay before mainstream people notice it's not the current model. This way you spend about 300 bucks per year and always have the current Macbook Pro or iMac.

Great point Mr Crowbar. Take note nerds.

jsalda
Jun 20, 2012, 01:31 PM
Just sell it on eBay after 3 years and get the next thing.

I think resale of these machines will not be that high in 3 years. There's a lot of people out there that will buy an older machine, for whatever reason, and upgrade it and be fine with it. I for one just bought my wife an old white MacBook off Craigslist ($300), spent an extra $100 on 4GB RAM and an aftermarket battery. Now she has a machine that is more than capable of handling her needs and I'm not going to be hacked if she spills coffee all over it or loses it. In a couple of years when she's ready for a new one, I'll put a new battery in hers and give it to the kids. Wouldn't be able to do that with the new MBPR.

Also, remember a lot of times Apple specs say one thing about the max capacity of the RAM and then a year after the machine is released, memory manufactures come out with new sticks that surpasses Apple specs. Again, I just dropped 16GB in my MBP (early 2011) for <$100, even though Apple says it'll only handle 8GB, never mind Apple's outrageous prices on upgrades.

It wouldn't surprise me if they eventually make some of this user serviceable in future models. My 2007 MBP was not supposed to be user serviceable other than the RAM. On the current MBP the owners manual tells you how to swap out RAM and the HD, so they changed there.

iamthedudeman
Jun 20, 2012, 01:51 PM
Yes take note from BG gangster!

Moral of the story from Big G. If you want long life out of your $2000 + laptop you're a nerd.

Good advice from wikiwiki big Ggggggg gangster. Straight from the trailer sharing wisdom with us nerds, because it's only gangster if you don't want to upgrade your laptop and live in a trailer park.

Thanks Big G!;)

The-Pro
Jun 20, 2012, 02:05 PM
asymetrical fans upgrade would be a great kickstarter project! :)

Agreed!!
Maybe theres a way to take the motor and fan blade disk thing, or just the fan blade disk thing and sticking them into the fan casing from the non- retina MBP?

Quie23
Jun 20, 2012, 02:55 PM
I still don't care about the upgradeability, and most people don't. I'm kind of sick of this topic I bought the MacBook Pro without retina display because I don't need a better screen, I don't care for thinner and lighter, and I still use the optical drive. Plus with everything I got I was able to get a more powerful computer for 200 dollars less. I didn't get it because it's upgradable or more repairable, but with that being said I don't hate the people who choose the Retina Display. There's a Mac for everyone I chose the regular one because it suits me other people rather have the Retina, and that's cool too. Bottom line stop complaining about this no one cares people are gonna buy what they want to buy, and don't be a hater for that. The general consumer which is who they are targeting does not care so just stop it.

Eidorian
Jun 20, 2012, 02:59 PM
Battery will start to be useless in 3 years, the then current Mac OS version will not run at all on the machine in 4 years and resale value will be gone in 5 years... Just sell it on eBay after 3 years and get the next thing. Costs about the same, but you'll have a more current machine that can run modern things smoothly and with full battery life.Apple is destroying the resale value of late on the iPads and notebooks. You are also up against the refurb store. That is unless you can find a sucker 3 years down the road.

I am quoted about $400 for my Late 2007 Macbook with 4 GB of aftermarket RAM and a 320 GB drive. I think that is a joke. Once again, unless there is a sucker to buy it.

joecool99
Jun 20, 2012, 03:02 PM
where can i find the screws organizer as in the photo ?

gpzjock
Jun 20, 2012, 03:03 PM
PC tower users love to bang on about upgradeability but in actual fact what they are doing is buying a whole new computer every few years anyways.

This is how PC upgrading goes:

- Want a new processor with new architecture
- Ok so now I need a new motherboard
- Now I need faster Ram in more quantity to get the most out of my processor
- Ah damn my power supply isn't powerful enough, upgrade that too
- Hmm my Graphics card seems to be the bottleneck, I'll get a new one



The only thing a pc tower builder tends to keep is a decent case if they buy one. PC laptops have an even briefer lifespan thanks to the brisk pace of development in hardware and competition. Mac hardware develops at a much slower pace due to the absence of another vendor in the market.
Mac Pro users are still on the same motherboard and Xeon CPU family as they were in 2010. Mac tower owners may change the broom head quite often but the handle stays the same for a considerable length of time.
My Mac desktops have a frontline use of about 4 years then take an auxiliary role on my network for another 4 years. Damnit we have a G4 iMac file serving music in one location, it is 10 years old with only a RAM and Airport card added.
Good Macs take an age to die, I have a Bondi Blue iMac with a 600mhz G3 upgraded CPU, 512mb RAM and 80GB HDD still running in its original chassis but the CRT is beginning to get fuzzy and it won't run anything newer than 10.3 Panther. Still surfs and emails like a bastard though!

spazzcat
Jun 20, 2012, 03:07 PM
But not being one of those 99% I do change mine at least every year. I formed a company policy 10-15 years ago that all hard drives must be removed from mainline service each 12 months. At that time the old drive becomes the top backup drive with the old main backup drive moving down the chain & so on until all of my drives are used up.

This policy has meant that we have had zero hard drive hard crashes. SSD drives are said to have a limited life span. It needs replacement even more than a hard drive does in a high write to usage.

I've changed out optical drives for a faster drive or to make room for a 2nd hard drive or a SSD. That is not really wasted space. What we need are more options for the space that the optical drive uses. A second SATA connector would be great. Thus a second HDD plus a 3rd SSD.

Memory is usually only done once. But memory can go bad. Also from time to time more memory can be added to MacBook Pros than Apple will sell. Like I have 16 GB of ram in my last 2 17" MacBook Pros. Something that Apple would not even offer us even at their normally higher prices. The same goes for the 2 year old Mac Pros.

Company requirements means that the 15" Retina MacBook Pro is not even allowed in the group of choices. This doesn't even have anything to do with the pentalope screwdriver needed to open the case.

Hard drive makers must love you. HDs are rated to last three years...

rmwebs
Jun 20, 2012, 03:08 PM
Hard drive makers must love you. HDs are rated to last three years...

IIRC thats based on a standard home-user using it for a couple of hours a day, not using them 24/7 or for regular heavy loads. 2 years is more realistic.

spazzcat
Jun 20, 2012, 03:08 PM
Apple is destroying the resale value of late on the iPads and notebooks. You are also up against the refurb store. That is unless you can find a sucker 3 years down the road.

I am quoted about $400 for my Late 2007 Macbook with 4 GB of aftermarket RAM and a 320 GB drive. I think that is a joke. Once again, unless there is a sucker to buy it.

Apple computers always hold their value, look at ebay...

Eidorian
Jun 20, 2012, 03:09 PM
Hard drive makers must love you. HDs are rated to last three years...I have a few hard drives already reaching 4 years old. The current home record holder is the iMac G4 from 2002.

I formed a company policy 10-15 years ago that all hard drives must be removed from mainline service each 12 months.Crazy.

Apple computers always hold their value, look at ebay...Suckers. I read LowEndMac and a few stores were offering my Late 2007 Macbook for....$600 the last time I checked. It is almost 5 years old now! Who buys these things at these prices?

spazzcat
Jun 20, 2012, 03:14 PM
Good luck running your laptop for 8 years. Upgrading the HDD and RAM will not make up for the fact that your fans will probably need to be replaced, your battery will be DONE and your processor will not be able to handle basic commands required.

I'm using a 6 year old MBP right now. My boss is using a 6 year old one too. We are both getting RMPBs. These computers last a very long time. One of the reason they cost so much.

----------

I have a few hard drives already reaching 4 years old. The current home record holder is the iMac G4 from 2002.

Crazy.

Suckers. I read LowEndMac and a few stores were offering my Late 2007 Macbook for....$600 the last time I checked. It is almost 5 years old now! Who buys these things at these prices?

HDs will last a long time, they are just rated for 3 years.

----------

IIRC thats based on a standard home-user using it for a couple of hours a day, not using them 24/7 or for regular heavy loads. 2 years is more realistic.

Who uses their laptop/desktop 24/7. We aren't talking servers here...

steveh
Jun 20, 2012, 03:20 PM
It's not that consumers don't prefer upgradable hardware, it's that Apple isn't giving them a choice and they still want the Mac. They're buying in spite of the fact that it's not upgradable , not because of it.

That must explain why the MacBook Pros outsell MacBook Airs by such a wide margin over the past few years.

Wait...

Customers do have a choice, and they're choosing light/thin/SSD over heavier/thicker/user-upgradeable.

jsalda
Jun 20, 2012, 03:22 PM
Hard drive makers must love you. HDs are rated to last three years...

He didn't say he trashed the old drives, they just got relegated to less important machines/roles.

People that think this is crazy have never had a hard drive go out on them right before a deadline for paying work. Much easier to swap out a drive on scheduled maintenance than to have it crash when your back is already up against the wall. Maybe every 12 months is a bit early, but I understand doing it on a regular basis.

scottsjack
Jun 20, 2012, 03:22 PM
I'll just buy the specs I want up front even if its costs a bit more and don't yet require it.

Buying the specs in not the point. When I bought my late 2008 MBP 4GB RAM and a 500GB 5400RPM HDD was the top end. Now I'm running 8GB RAM and a Scorpio Black 750GB 72KRPM drive. The computer is a much faster one than I could have purchased initially.

Also I prefer WD drives rather than the Seagate ones that had so much trouble when their 72K RPM models became available on Macs. Even now, a 750GB 72KRPM drive is a $150.00 option on MBPs that come with a 500GB drive standard. Scorpio Black 750GB 72KRPM drives are all of $104.99 at New Egg! Even on the Top of the line MBP were the fast drive is $50.00 more than the 750GB 54KRPM standard one you get the New Egg on and keep the old one for an external. That's worth $60.00.

Finally since my oldie MBP has the snap out battery/HDD cover I also have a W7 drive for those rare moments and a W8 drive for when I'm in the mood for something humorous. It takes almost no time to swap them.

Sackvillenb
Jun 20, 2012, 03:42 PM
Well, although the savings is not giant when looking at upgradable ram (but still appreciable), you can save a LOT of money by putting in your own SSD (as opposed to buying one through Apple). That's where upgradability makes a big difference for me. And I realize that most people won't upgrade their machines. But that doesn't mean Apple should stop catering to those people. Most people don't use Logic for FCP or Aperture either. But they are still important markets to support. And here's the thing: it doesn't take much effort from Apple to make machines upgradable (for basics like ram and HD), because these components are already upgradable! I can accept why they are not upgradable in the rMBP, but I'm glad they still provide some choice by having the upgradable MBP and the non-midifiable rMBP.

user418
Jun 20, 2012, 04:03 PM
Non upgradable RMBP = guaranteed increase in Apple Care sales.

faroZ06
Jun 20, 2012, 04:11 PM
Not if the maximum amount of RAM the chipset/CPU can handle is already offered. It wouldn't make sense. As an example, I have an AMD 990X chipset supporting 16GB RAM. If it would be sothered to my MB instead of in a slot, there would not be any difference. Even putting in more RAM with more capacity would result in only having 16GB addressable through chipset and CPU.

Yes, but then you always have to get the max amount of RAM or risk getting too little and being stuck. Also, what if I don't want to pay the ripoff price Apple charges to have extra RAM installed? I could do it myself! Or what if I get too much RAM and want to sell it? Or what if I drop the computer by accident, and it gets smashed somehow, and I want to salvage the parts?

It's simply all about Apple making money. I'm not too upset, though, since I am not a laptop-buyer anyway. The only laptop I have was free, and it cost me $43 to get a new hard drive to replace the broken one.

----------

Non upgradable RMBP = guaranteed increase in Apple Care sales.

Exactly. Maybe they were sick of people upgrading the RAM after buying to avoid heightened costs. I'd rather just have insurance on my whole PC and not the RAM since RAM never really breaks anyway.

----------

That must explain why the MacBook Pros outsell MacBook Airs by such a wide margin over the past few years.

Wait...

Customers do have a choice, and they're choosing light/thin/SSD over heavier/thicker/user-upgradeable.

Soldering the RAM on does not make it thinner or lighter.

----------

Yes take note from BG gangster!

Moral of the story from Big G. If you want long life out of your $2000 + laptop you're a nerd.

Good advice from wikiwiki big Ggggggg gangster. Straight from the trailer sharing wisdom with us nerds, because it's only gangster if you don't want to upgrade your laptop and live in a trailer park.

Thanks Big G!;)

I am confused. Does this mean that all my base are belong to you?

elschus
Jun 20, 2012, 04:14 PM
Personally, I would like Apple to sell me a machine with zero RAM and zero storage at a lower price. They're getting better, but the BTO prices are too high. Often you need to buy a processor upgrade (which I don't want) to get more storage.


Suckers. I read LowEndMac and a few stores were offering my Late 2007 Macbook for....$600 the last time I checked. It is almost 5 years old now! Who buys these things at these prices?

LowEnd Mac is a good source to estimate private party prices... just drop the online retailers by $100-200.

For whatever reason, people buy old Macs. This has always been the case. My dad sold our pair of Mac Pluses out of our living room in ~1996. I don't remember the value, but it was enough to make it worth the time... for an 8 year old computer. Since then, I've always sold my old Macs, and I always think 'who would want a ___ (a five flavors iMac that locks up sometimes, a Snow iMac G3, a G4 powerbook, etc.)?' but someone always does. I benefit, but I don't fully understand it.

I do get a sinking feeling that Apple is trying to shorten the obsolescence cycles. I hope that doesn't stifle the used market (that's a lot of landfill Macs), but I don't think it will. People still buy.

TennisandMusic
Jun 20, 2012, 04:32 PM
For me, it's not so much the size and weight savings-- I was set on a 17" MBP before Apple axed it. It's the Retina display, standard SSD, low(er) glare display, and reasonably good value that sold me.

And yes, for what you're getting, it _is_ good value. Try spec'ing out a regular 15" MBP on Apple's site to match the specs of the rMBP and look at the price difference.

You don't compare Apple products to other Apple products to determine "good value".

gnasher729
Jun 20, 2012, 04:56 PM
Shouldn't the high-end pro-model of the MacBook Pro have upgradeable RAM? The cheaper one has it. Is this like a cheap hotel vs expensive hotel where the expensive one expects you to spend money while the cheap one has free wifi and stuff?

No. The cheaper one has non-upgradeable RAM, and the more expensive one is upgradeable. Have a good look at the price of MBPR and MBP. And when you compare them, compare them with identical RAM and identical SSD, and you will see that the MBP is actually several hundred dollars more expensive. The reason why you _think_ it is cheaper is because you can buy it with very little RAM and with a cheap spinning hard drive.


Suckers. I read LowEndMac and a few stores were offering my Late 2007 Macbook for....$600 the last time I checked. It is almost 5 years old now! Who buys these things at these prices?

Beats me. These people should check out the price for a refurbished MBA first.

Eidorian
Jun 20, 2012, 05:02 PM
Beats me. These people should check out the price for a refurbished MBA first.I check the refurbished pages first every time Apple updates their hardware. The Core 2 Duo 320M based MacBook Airs were down at $729 for the base models. Now the Sandy Bridge ones are going on down there.

http://store.apple.com/us/product/FC968LL/A

2 GB of RAM is cringe worthy though.

faroZ06
Jun 20, 2012, 05:10 PM
No. The cheaper one has non-upgradeable RAM, and the more expensive one is upgradeable. Have a good look at the price of MBPR and MBP. And when you compare them, compare them with identical RAM and identical SSD, and you will see that the MBP is actually several hundred dollars more expensive. The reason why you _think_ it is cheaper is because you can buy it with very little RAM and with a cheap spinning hard drive.


The MBPR may be a better deal if you consider the specs, but it is still more expensive than those low-end MBPs that also have upgradeable RAM. The MBPR is the high-end model regardless of how good of a deal it is.

Also, if what you say is true, there is no point in buying a high-end MBP non-retina unless you just really badly want an ethernet port, right? They need to upgrade the MBP non-retinas or lower the price.

And I think the lack of wired ethernet on the MBPR is ridiculous. What about all those users who want fast networking and/or don't have good wifi in their house? Wifi is much slower in my room than wired ethernet is due to the wired mesh in the walls.

Bigskygangsta
Jun 20, 2012, 05:16 PM
Yes take note from BG gangster!

Moral of the story from Big G. If you want long life out of your $2000 + laptop you're a nerd.

Good advice from wikiwiki big Ggggggg gangster. Straight from the trailer sharing wisdom with us nerds, because it's only gangster if you don't want to upgrade your laptop and live in a trailer park.

Thanks Big G!;)

I've been bass fishing all day long and I'm typing this with worm guts still all over my hands. I'm sunburned and still about half drunk, but I had to go ahead and reply now....

Get a job nerd and just upgrade every two years like my cousin does up in the city!!!! FYI... my old lady is pissed too. She called me out on the John boat just to tell me what you wrote.

gpzjock
Jun 20, 2012, 05:39 PM
No. The cheaper one has non-upgradeable RAM, and the more expensive one is upgradeable. Have a good look at the price of MBPR and MBP. And when you compare them, compare them with identical RAM and identical SSD, and you will see that the MBP is actually several hundred dollars more expensive. The reason why you _think_ it is cheaper is because you can buy it with very little RAM and with a cheap spinning hard drive.






Buy a 15" MBP for £1500, base spec, swap in 16 GB of RAM for £75 and a 256 GB SSD for £160 makes a topped up MBP for £1735, buy the same spec RetinaMBP (with an external Superdrive and ethernet adapter to make it even) and you have £2049, so the Retina screen costs you £314 extra. Provided you know how to use a tiny philips screw driver and follow Youtube instructions.
But hey, only us geeks would think of opening a laptop up to change the internals. :D
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-CMSA16GX3M2A1333C9-Memory-1333MHz-So-Dimm/dp/B006ON5KZC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340231288&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crucial-CT256M4SSD2-256GB-M4-SSD/dp/B004W2JL2A/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1340230784&sr=8-2

If you were REALLY geeky you could sell the 8 GB RAM on eBay for £30 and the 750Gb HDD for £30 and clip your MBP down to £1675, price difference now £374 in the upgradable version's favour, that is 22% cheaper. :eek:


Doing the same trick with the top end CPU versions we have an upgradeable MBP for £2039 + £75 RAM and £334 for a 512 MB SSD = £2448 - £60 selling crap = £2388

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crucial-CT512M4SSD2-512GB-M4-SSD/dp/B004W2JL3Y/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1340235146&sr=8-3
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crucial-CT512M4SSD1-512GB-Slim-Internal/dp/B006MQQC0I/ref=sr_1_7?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1340235782&sr=1-7)
RetinaMBP top spec with Superdrive and Ethernet = £2789 (the screwdriver friendly version saves about 17%)

So £401 cheaper on that upgradeable one too. Apple's Retina screen premium cost is about £400 and having to send the whole thing to them if the RAM or SSD fails. But hey, the Retina looks like Victoria Beckham could carry it around for a few more hours if she didn't have a flunky to do it for her. :)

shurcooL
Jun 20, 2012, 06:20 PM
Absolutely. This is my main gripe -- I want the Retina screen in the non-Retina body.
Well, it physically cannot be done by Apple today, not without making the battery life shorter or making the MBP bigger/heavier.

smoking monkey
Jun 20, 2012, 10:34 PM
Apple is destroying the resale value of late on the iPads and notebooks. You are also up against the refurb store. That is unless you can find a sucker 3 years down the road.

I am quoted about $400 for my Late 2007 Macbook with 4 GB of aftermarket RAM and a 320 GB drive. I think that is a joke. Once again, unless there is a sucker to buy it.

For a 5 yr old machine I think that's fair. It's not a Pro either. Don't know if it's 13/15inch or what condition it's in. 400 bucks off the price of your next machine is still pretty good after 5 years.

marioguarneros
Jun 20, 2012, 10:48 PM
I don't mind the decrease in user "repairability/upgradeability" so much anymore and this is why:

The only changes I did to my 2008 unibody MacBook were the replacement of the optical drive for a OWC 1TB HDD kit to gain more storage and a scratch disk as I seldomly have to burn a CD/DVD. I also upgraded the RAM from the standard 4GB to 8GB.

Now my new Retina will be used exclusively for my photography work, the optical drive is gone which for me is great, we have now the option of Thunderbolt external storage, I can also now hook it up to a TB Display (which I couldn't with my 2008 MB).

The optimal setup for Lightroom and Photoshop max out at 6 cores since anything above for this software is a waste as it is not used by the software, With the new RMBP I am getting quad core and a flash drive which is lightning fast not to mention the 16GB of RAM, yeah 32GB would be awesome but in comparison to my 2008 setup this is like "achieving Nirvana" fast)

So the way I see it, for the next 3 or 4 years this machine will serve my needs, plus I'm sure 3rd party manufacturers will eventually come with options to upgrade the ram and the flash storage one way or another for the users than need so, users can always sell their current one and upgrade to the new ones.

I guess it just really comes down to what's best for each user and if it is profitable to have one of these new RMBP's depending on what is it going to be used for and what is your cycle of upgrading to a full new machine.

Who knows, maybe if business continues to do well next year when they launch the MBP's I can add one too :D

What are you guys primarily using your RMBP'S for?

Added Note, this is from OWC blog:

OWC Drives
We can’t pre-announce products in development, so I can neither confirm nor deny we’re working on an SSD for the Retina MacBook Air. However I will note that we did come out with OWC Mercury Aura Pro SSD upgrade for MacBook Air, and we’re big fans of that SSD line here. Yah, it’s our own product, but as with anything there’s certain products you just like working on.

Mad-B-One
Jun 21, 2012, 12:22 AM
Or what if I get too much RAM and want to sell it?

Are you just looking for reasons to contradict me? :rolleyes:

faroZ06
Jun 21, 2012, 12:27 AM
Are you just looking for reasons to contradict me? :rolleyes:

Yes, like you did in your reply. Soldered on RAM is a ripoff.

----------

For a 5 yr old machine I think that's fair. It's not a Pro either. Don't know if it's 13/15inch or what condition it's in. 400 bucks off the price of your next machine is still pretty good after 5 years.

I got a 2006 MacBook for free. $400 is fair.

Sell your Mac every 2 years for minimal $/year. And you get the newest Macs all the time. I did the research, and it costs about the same as buying an iMac and keeping it for 10 years. Imagine using a 2002 computer right now.

Mad-B-One
Jun 21, 2012, 12:29 AM
Yes, like you did in your reply. Soldered on RAM is a ripoff.

How does soldering the RAM make it a ripoff? Ever heard of saving costs? Did you read the space difference the RAM in-slot needs, not even talking about the resistance the electricity has with the extension... you gotta know a little about that before you argue that this is the reason. Also, how do you know it is actually cheaper to not use standard parts? Point is: we don't know all the reasons why it is dome this way. We know the form factor is way smaller. That's about it.

Edit: Showing you the difference soldered RAM (and other changes) can have on size, so yea, they "ripped off" a lot of weight and size, if that is what you mean:
http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/gIMpODSkfTqYigvJ.medium

lukarak
Jun 21, 2012, 02:42 AM
How does soldering the RAM make it a ripoff? Ever heard of saving costs? Did you read the space difference the RAM in-slot needs, not even talking about the resistance the electricity has with the extension... you gotta know a little about that before you argue that this is the reason. Also, how do you know it is actually cheaper to not use standard parts? Point is: we don't know all the reasons why it is dome this way. We know the form factor is way smaller. That's about it.

Soldered RAM is a non issue if they offer the maximum capacity the chipset supports in this configuration. And they do. That's precisely why a MBPR can be configured with 16 GB and the new MBP cannot.

Bauer24
Jun 21, 2012, 02:59 AM
IIRC thats based on a standard home-user using it for a couple of hours a day, not using them 24/7 or for regular heavy loads. 2 years is more realistic.

Unless you buy WD RE drives. Then you're back up to a 5+ year lifespan.

Xcallibur
Jun 21, 2012, 03:37 AM
The only thing a pc tower builder tends to keep is a decent case if they buy one. PC laptops have an even briefer lifespan thanks to the brisk pace of development in hardware and competition. Mac hardware develops at a much slower pace due to the absence of another vendor in the market. Mac Pro users are still on the same motherboard and Xeon CPU family as they were in 2010. Mac tower owners may change the broom head quite often but the handle stays the same for a considerable length of time. My Mac desktops have a frontline use of about 4 years then take an auxiliary role on my network for another 4 years. Damnit we have a G4 iMac file serving music in one location, it is 10 years old with only a RAM and Airport card added. Good Macs take an age to die, I have a Bondi Blue iMac with a 600mhz G3 upgraded CPU, 512mb RAM and 80GB HDD still running in its original chassis but the CRT is beginning to get fuzzy and it won't run anything newer than 10.3 Panther. Still surfs and emails like a bastard though!

The question is: is the retina Macbook Pro a good mac?

gpzjock
Jun 21, 2012, 04:12 AM
The question is: is the retina Macbook Pro a good mac?

Well spotted sir! If Nvidia's track record for too hot laptop GPUs in skinny MBP cases is anything to go by it may not be. Only time will tell.

cheesymogul
Jun 21, 2012, 04:49 AM
Soldered RAM is a non issue if they offer the maximum capacity the chipset supports in this configuration. And they do. That's precisely why a MBPR can be configured with 16 GB and the new MBP cannot.
All early and late 2011 MBP models run just fine with 16 GB non-Apple RAM.
Why shouldn't the new ones run as well?

gnasher729
Jun 21, 2012, 05:08 AM
Well, it physically cannot be done by Apple today, not without making the battery life shorter or making the MBP bigger/heavier.

I think the problem isn't what Apple could do, and I don't think there is much of a problem with the cost of Retina displays, but the problem is that the number of displays manufactured is far less than the number of Macs with Retina displays that Apple could sell. That is why you can only get a Retina display with an expensive computer, so Apple makes the most of the screens they get.

Once the number of displays available goes up, I can't see a reason why Retina displays wouldn't go into other cases. Of course you will want a bigger battery because Retina needs more power, which can be done the hard way by squeezing things closer together, or for the MBPs it can be done the easy way by removing the optical drive and filling the space with battery. MBAs might be more difficult.

lifeinhd
Jun 21, 2012, 07:58 AM
You don't compare Apple products to other Apple products to determine "good value".

Sure you do. For two reasons.
1) If you're going to buy a Mac, you're going to buy a Mac, no reason to look at other vendors. You need to compare within the Mac range.
2) Macs are already good value. Show me a Dell that's .7 inches thick, has a 15" Retina Display, gets 7 hours of battery, has a 256GB SSD, and has a quad core processor for less than $2199, then we'll talk.

cgk.emu
Jun 21, 2012, 08:00 AM
Maybe all the PRO users should take note that using a PRO labeled product doesn't mean PRO, as in being able to tinker with every component in there or upgrade the system after 3 years (like somebody posted)

This is what works best:

Get what you need for what you need it.
Buy Apple Care and after 3 years buy the latest model, then...

Get what you need for what you need it.
Buy Apple Care and after 3 years buy the latest model, then...

Get what you need for what you need it.
Buy Apple Care and after 3 years buy the latest model, then...

Get what you need for what you need it.
Buy Apple Care and after 3 years buy the latest model, then...

Get what you need for what you need it.
Buy Apple Care and after 3 years buy the latest model, then...

I can see your point, but "Pro" grade stuff doesn't always mean you can tinker with it. Take a high end Canon camera designed for professionals. You can't open those things up and mess with them. Okay, so it's not a computer but, take a high end HP or Dell workstation, or laptop so the comparison is more accurate, aside from RAM and HD you can't upgrade them...if you want some upgradeability there is always the non-retina MPB.

bozzomarc
Jun 21, 2012, 08:19 AM
there is one thing that doesnt add up (or maybe it does)
some of us are talking about a 13" retina coming out in Q3-4 but how likely is it.

of course i m asking YOU macrumors as i dont want to tear a MBP...but how likely is it that a 13inch could cram the same amount of stuff as a 15"inch retina in a 13" body ....can it really be done? and more importantly can the new heat dissipation system handle it!

Thanks guys!

lukarak
Jun 21, 2012, 08:45 AM
All early and late 2011 MBP models run just fine with 16 GB non-Apple RAM.
Why shouldn't the new ones run as well?

I know that they do, that was the point i was trying to make. In a standard MBP, Apple offers up to 8 GB configured in the store, and you can put 16 GB yourself. In the Retina MBP, Apple offers the 16 GB option in the store because you can't upgrade yourself. But this chipset configuration is already maxed out at 16 GB (same as C2D models are maxed out at 8 GB so you can't put 2x8GB sticks), so the soldered RAM is not an issue upgradewise.

HishamAkhtar
Jun 21, 2012, 08:52 AM
And on this unit I CAN replace the battery and fans. The processor is a concern but I kept my G4 PowerBook for 7 years so there's a chance.

Is it really worth the cost to replace all of the internals in your laptop just to have it around for 8 years? I understand upgrading memory and RAM, but at some point it makes sense to let a laptop go and replace it.

My laptop is more than 4 years old and I'm definitely feeling that it doesn't perform as well as when it was new (mainly it's not so portable anymore) so rather than tinkering around with it, I've decided to replace it.

njean777
Jun 21, 2012, 10:23 AM
Is it really worth the cost to replace all of the internals in your laptop just to have it around for 8 years? I understand upgrading memory and RAM, but at some point it makes sense to let a laptop go and replace it.

My laptop is more than 4 years old and I'm definitely feeling that it doesn't perform as well as when it was new (mainly it's not so portable anymore) so rather than tinkering around with it, I've decided to replace it.

Some people like to have their purchases last a long time. I know I do when I build a pc, and or buy a laptop. I want it to last at least 4 years minimum for a laptop, 5 for a desktop. I don't like the idea of non-user upgradeable parts. Especially when it comes to ram and HD's. I don't mind it for graphics cards and processors in laptops, but when I cannot upgrade the ram or HD myself I have a serious problem with that.

KurtangleTN
Jun 21, 2012, 11:30 AM
The kool aid drinkers again try to downplay the problem, because god nobody upgrades their RAM anymore!

The thing is having sealed RAM and proprietary SSD is fine on say the Air because that target market is much different then I'd imagine a $2100 power computer is.

It's not even really the RAM, the SSD is the biggest **** kicker. For one you are stuck at that 256GB option on the base model, you have to go up a model in order to increase it.

Not to mention SSD speeds get faster each year, in 2-3 years who knows how the current one will look compared to SSDs of that time, probably not very well.

Finally the repairability, a HD/SSD failure in most computers is a simple swap that might take 5-10 minutes for someone experienced. It's inherently more difficult and expensive thanks to proprietary parts and all the difficulty opening the case.

Horrible analogy with the Canon camera, there is nothing internally that an end user would want to replace in a DSLR.. this would be more like Canon sealed a CF card in a pro camera and didn't give you the option to replace or chose it. That's a better stupid ass analogy.

crazy mikey
Jun 21, 2012, 12:22 PM
h'okay. this is for the iFix it people. I am curious on one major thing.

Look here:Link (http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/VbBW15KJeTZp3DIW.huge)

and then look here: Link (http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/OElarpDkI1pqNeGW.huge)

these are the logic boards of each one. the first one is obviously the non-retina display and the 2nd is the retina display. my biggest question is...

Will the retina display work in the non-retina display. it looks like it still uses the 30 or 40 pin display connector. judging by the photos, it looks rather close to comparison.

anyone else curious?

HishamAkhtar
Jun 21, 2012, 03:17 PM
Some people like to have their purchases last a long time. I know I do when I build a pc, and or buy a laptop. I want it to last at least 4 years minimum for a laptop, 5 for a desktop. I don't like the idea of non-user upgradeable parts. Especially when it comes to ram and HD's. I don't mind it for graphics cards and processors in laptops, but when I cannot upgrade the ram or HD myself I have a serious problem with that.

I can't imagine a rMBP not lasting a minimum of 4 years with the specs that it has at the moment. I know it's not upgradable but it's pretty future-proof right out of the box and should last a minimum 4/5 years. Plus considering it has a lot of features that will be the standard over the next couple of years, I can imagine it holding it's value quite nicely.

Also with the rMBP, it IS possible to upgrade the memory even though you're locked into the RAM you buy.

AidenShaw
Jun 21, 2012, 08:20 PM
Also with the rMBP, it IS possible to upgrade the memory even though you're locked into the RAM you buy.

What did you mean to say?

gpzjock
Jun 21, 2012, 08:33 PM
I can't imagine a rMBP not lasting a minimum of 4 years with the specs that it has at the moment. I know it's not upgradable but it's pretty future-proof right out of the box and should last a minimum 4/5 years. Plus considering it has a lot of features that will be the standard over the next couple of years, I can imagine it holding it's value quite nicely.

Also with the rMBP, it IS possible to upgrade the memory even though you're locked into the RAM you buy.

If you return your rMBP to Apple with failed RAM soldered on the board they could possibly remove it and replace it with a larger capacity stick (in theory). I'm not saying they would give you the option though.
My biggest concern about non upgradeable/removable RAM or SSD is not just the lack of upgrade but the hassle of getting it repaired when a removable version of either would be very easy and probably much cheaper to do yourself after the 3 year mandatory Applecare package has run out. Don't think the Applecare is mandatory? Go ask Apple how much a replacement retina screen costs.

candamo
Jun 22, 2012, 12:28 PM
I wonder if I can upgrade my Mid 2010 13" Macbook Pro with those internal fans. That would be great :D

KingYaba
Jun 23, 2012, 01:41 PM
I'll take thinner, lighter, and longer battery life over upgrade options any day. I'll just buy the specs I want up front even if its costs a bit more and don't yet require it.

Apple also needs to know that replacing the board is going to be expensive so consumers aren't going to like it if they can't get it replaced cost effectively after the AppleCare expires. I seriously would spend a little more to get an extended 4 or 5 yr coverage rather than spend 800-1500 to replace internals.

So what you're saying is, that $2,200 Retinabook isn't actually $2,200. It's $2,550 because Apple Care is almost mandatory.

Yebubbleman
Jun 23, 2012, 04:04 PM
Frankly, this is why the non-retina unibody MacBook Pros are the best designed and engineered laptops on the market today. It's rugged, sturdy, practical, and of course, easy on the eyes. No component is hard to get at. The worst is probably the battery, but acquire a tri-lobe screw-driver and that even that problem is solved. This is probably my biggest complaint and fear with the new retina models (second only to the removal of ports, requiring me to buy $30 dongles AND the removal of the optical drive). In terms of design and engineering, in my truly honest opinion, the retina models are a step down from the non-retina models.

HishamAkhtar
Jun 27, 2012, 05:57 AM
What did you mean to say?

He's making it seem that you're locked into the SSD memory you buy but that's not the case.

----------

If you return your rMBP to Apple with failed RAM soldered on the board they could possibly remove it and replace it with a larger capacity stick (in theory). I'm not saying they would give you the option though.
My biggest concern about non upgradeable/removable RAM or SSD is not just the lack of upgrade but the hassle of getting it repaired when a removable version of either would be very easy and probably much cheaper to do yourself after the 3 year mandatory Applecare package has run out. Don't think the Applecare is mandatory? Go ask Apple how much a replacement retina screen costs.

Yeah that's a really good point. You're riding on thin ice after AppleCare runs out...

professorjay
Jun 27, 2012, 01:07 PM
So what you're saying is, that $2,200 Retinabook isn't actually $2,200. It's $2,550 because Apple Care is almost mandatory.

That's how I look at it.

We have no idea what the repair costs for the screen, HD, ram, or battery are. If one of those things goes wrong on a regular MB Pro at least I know the HD, ram & battery are going to be reasonable for me to do myself.

Not to mention you are still on your own after 3 yrs w/ the Apple Care. And I would prefer to keep my next computer for 5 yrs (especially at that price tag) just like the one I'm using now.

Add that this is the first version of a totally new model, which has a higher chance of problems, the amount of risk at the regular price (w/out Apple Care) is not worth it to me. All those factors put together: I'm getting the non-retina. That's how I came to my conclusion, even though I initially had my finger on the buy button for the retina. It wasn't easy to talk myself out of it.

KingYaba
Jun 29, 2012, 08:50 PM
I'm getting the non-retina. That's how I came to my conclusion, even though I initially had my finger on the buy button for the retina. It wasn't easy to talk myself out of it.

And another MR article said that the full 2880x1800 resolution isn't supported by Mac OS X which, in my mind, sort of defeats the main purpose of buying this notebook. Maybe the next version of OS X will include support.

unplugme71
Jul 23, 2012, 08:43 AM
So what you're saying is, that $2,200 Retinabook isn't actually $2,200. It's $2,550 because Apple Care is almost mandatory.

No, but offer a 4 or 5 yr term instead of 3yr for Apple Care

to002010
Jul 23, 2012, 09:36 PM
thats sick