PDA

View Full Version : Apple's Retail Store Staff Compensation Criticized




Pages : [1] 2

MacRumors
Jun 24, 2012, 11:26 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/25/apples-retail-store-staff-compensation-criticized/)


In the latest installment of its "iEconomy" series of articles, The New York Times takes a look at Apple's retail stores (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/business/apple-store-workers-loyal-but-short-on-pay.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all), examining the compensation offered to its employees responsible for fueling booming sales in the division. The article features quotes from a number of former Apple retail store employees, including MacRumors' own Jordan Golson.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/06/jobs_retailing_is_hard.jpg


The new report takes the stance that Apple is not paying its retail staff enough given the success of the stores, instead relying on its employees' devotion to the company and a strong fan base providing a massive pool of job applicants to keep its retail stores staffed.Within this world, the Apple Store is the undisputed king, a retail phenomenon renowned for impeccable design, deft service and spectacular revenues. Last year, the company's 327 global stores took in more money per square foot than any other United States retailer -- wireless or otherwise -- and almost double that of Tiffany, which was No. 2 on the list, according to the research firm RetailSails.

Worldwide, its stores sold $16 billion in merchandise.

But most of Apple's employees enjoyed little of that wealth. While consumers tend to think of Apple's headquarters in Cupertino, Calif., as the company's heart and soul, a majority of its workers in the United States are not engineers or executives with hefty salaries and bonuses but rather hourly wage earners selling iPhones and MacBooks.The report notes that roughly 70% of Apple's 43,000 U.S. workers are retail store employees, with many of them earning in the neighborhood of $25,000 per year. Apple's pay rates are above average for the retail sector, but the Times argues that with each retail store employee bringing in an average of $500,000 in sales per year Apple is not a typical retailer.

The latest iEconomy report comes just days after Apple began offering raises of up to 25% (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/20/apple-retail-store-staff-set-to-gain-raises-of-up-to-25/) to many of its retail store employees, with speculation suggesting that the move was made to address the criticism set to appear in the report. Apple last week also launched new employee hardware discounts (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/21/apple-launches-improved-employee-hardware-discount-program-for-mac-and-ipad/) of $500 off of a Mac or $250 off of an iPad, on top of existing 25% employee discounts.

(Photo by Win McNamee/Reuters)

Article Link: Apple's Retail Store Staff Compensation Criticized (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/25/apples-retail-store-staff-compensation-criticized/)



levitynyc
Jun 24, 2012, 11:28 PM
If the Apple Store don't like their salaries, they are more than welcome to go work somewhere else.

Capitalism wins here.

LagunaSol
Jun 24, 2012, 11:33 PM
Wow, yet another anti-capitalism, anti-Apple diatribe from the NYT. What a surprise. Perhaps the government should mandate pay rates based on a company's success in the marketplace. Am I right comrades?

Ljohnson72
Jun 24, 2012, 11:35 PM
Because making ~$12.00 at a retail job is terrible. :rolleyes:

Kaibelf
Jun 24, 2012, 11:36 PM
I wasn't aware that retail employees were considered skilled workers. People should stop whining.

jelew1985
Jun 24, 2012, 11:37 PM
So if each employee brings in an average of $500,000 a year and take home $25,000 a year then that is roughly 5% of their total sales. Ya thats a little low. However, they could just increase the percentage to like 7% which would bring in roughly $35,000 a year for the employees. That would be a dramatic jump in pay. That is if they were being paid commission.

pdjudd
Jun 24, 2012, 11:37 PM
I remember working retail - I got crap for compensation besides the ability to work extra shifts every so often. I would regularly ring up transactions for hundreds of dollars. We never sold computers, but I sold the most expensive stuff in the store. I bet if I sold computers only, I would be treated the same way that Apple employees do. And they make more money than I did.

Retail employees almost never make a lot of money - even if the company they work for makes millions of money. Thatís just a fact of the retail versus corporate side of business. If you want to make money working retail is not the route to take.

Macman45
Jun 24, 2012, 11:39 PM
Retailing IS hard. I had a brief spell at it after my wife died and I just wanted a job, Any job to take my mind off things. I worked for Tiny Computers (Now long defunct) first part time, and then as a manager in the Cardiff store.

The hours were long, the pressure to sell extended warranties intense, and I left because I believed that the ethos was immoral...I was however very well paid. I hired all female staff based on the theory that they sell better...They did, and my store was consistently top of the sales tables.

I left to start my own business, taking with me many of the staff I had hired!

Any retail environment is tough, and I don't begrudge Apple staff the pay rise one bit. They have to deal with awkward customers on a daily basis.

NorEaster
Jun 24, 2012, 11:39 PM
Wow, yet another anti-capitalism, anti-Apple diatribe from the NYT. What a surprise. Perhaps the government should mandate pay rates based on a company's success in the marketplace. Am I right comrades?

Did you read the article? Where in it did the NYT propose that the government should mandate pay raises based on company success? Stop trying to make this political. If you disagree with the NYT's perspective, that's your prerogative. But turning this political is a bit silly.

HiRez
Jun 24, 2012, 11:39 PM
This is pretty ridiculous, since when do companies "share" their wealth with employees based on dollars earned per square foot? They aren't owners, they're employees. As long as their compensation is comparable to other retail jobs, where's the problem? No one gets rich working retail, that sucks but that's just the way it is. You want to get rich then write some software after leaving the Apple Store.

ixodes
Jun 24, 2012, 11:39 PM
When a company is as successful as Apple is, they draw a lot of attention. It's not unusual for them to be scrutinized. Apple loves the headlines anyway. The more attention the better. It's what makes the brand a very recognized name.

Sardonick007
Jun 24, 2012, 11:40 PM
I don't know how things are in the real world, but here in crapville Florida the so called "geniuses" and the rest of the staff aren't worth what a burger slinger makes.

Appel
Jun 24, 2012, 11:40 PM
^ haha, americans.

levitynyc
Jun 24, 2012, 11:40 PM
We recently put a job opening up on Craigslist for a small retail store in NY for pretty much a stock boy / delivery boy position at 8 bucks an hour with no health benefits. We got over 200 applicants in 7 days.

Making 12 bucks an hour, plus full medical and 401K in a mall selling computers that essentially sell themselves is pretty sweet in my opinion.

khovland92
Jun 24, 2012, 11:41 PM
So if each employee brings in an average of $500,000 a year and take home $25,000 a year then that is roughly 5% of their total sales. Ya thats a little low. However, they could just increase the percentage to like 7% which would bring in roughly $35,000 a year for the employees. That would be a dramatic jump in pay. That is if they were being paid commission.

but they arent, and for good reason. When you walk into an apple store, no1 is pushy, no1 is trying to sly you into buying anything. They are just good employees who are paid better then average, get apple discounts, and get good experience at to how a company should run. Making a career out of a retail sales clerk is silly.

tomtom2234
Jun 24, 2012, 11:42 PM
They can feel free to quit their job and let me take their place. I'd gladly work there while in college. Big discounts on Apple hardware and decent pay, what more is there to ask for?

WindWaker
Jun 24, 2012, 11:42 PM
For an entry level job with minimal training, that's not too bad. Apple could definitely shell out more to its employees, but ultimately, Apple is a company which has a goal to make money.

That said, Apple is pretty generous in many ways to its retail store workers. Every time I've asked an employee at an Apple Store about his/ her benefits and pay, they generally have nothing but good things to say (both inside and outside of work).

peteullo
Jun 24, 2012, 11:42 PM
I think these journalists need to realize that working in retail and working for a company whos products you love and appreciate are two different things.

TMar
Jun 24, 2012, 11:42 PM
They are selling electronics. They are selling electronics. They are selling electronics.

In case you missed it they are selling electronics. It's not strenuous physical labor. They are not 1000's of feet above or below ground. They are not working in hazardous conditions, with heavy machinery or around any number of things that could kill or injure them. They are not even doing skilled delicate tedious work that requires years of training. They are selling electronics.

deftdrummer
Jun 24, 2012, 11:42 PM
Another thing to consider here especially in light of the revamped hardware pricing for employees is that Apple is making cash hand over fist because employees are recycling the money right back into apple by buying their products.

It's a double win for apple so to me I don't see any harm in upping their salaries because the money will still likely go right back to Apple in a big way

jelew1985
Jun 24, 2012, 11:43 PM
but they arent, and for good reason. When you walk into an apple store, no1 is pushy, no1 is trying to sly you into buying anything. They are just good employees who are paid better then average, get apple discounts, and get good experience at to how a company should run. Making a career out of a retail sales clerk is silly.

Where I work at we are all on commission and we aren't pushy at all. As a matter of fact, its against our selling policies. However, we do get paid very well for what we do.

So, if Apple were to implement an commission based pay they could set it up with strict selling rules that would prohibit sales persons from being greedy or pushy.

I am curious to why being a sales clerk would be silly as a career? You can make a killing if you are in the right position and right market.

pdjudd
Jun 24, 2012, 11:47 PM
This is pretty ridiculous, since when do companies "share" their wealth with employees based on dollars earned per square foot? They aren't owners, they're employees. As long as their compensation is comparable to other retail jobs, where's the problem? No one gets rich working retail, that sucks but that's just the way it is. You want to get rich then write some software after leaving the Apple Store.

It’s Apple! They are successful and therefore they must be held to impossible standards.

When a company is as successful as Apple is, they draw a lot of attention. It's not unusual for them to be scrutinized. Apple loves the headlines anyway. The more attention the better. It's what makes the brand a very recognized name.

Doesn’t matter. It’s ridiculous on how the press targets Apple or anybody because they make money. Nobody questions the working environment of Exxon employees who work incredibly hazardous jobs around explosive chemicals year round. Nobody talks about Best Buy or Wall Mart even though they make billions every year too. It’s purely attention grabbing and I despise it.

I am curious to why being a sales clerk would be silly as a career? You can make a killing if you are in the right position and right market.
That depends highly on what you sell and how valuable you are. 95% of retail employees do not make anything above minimum hourly wage. Not a whole lot even if you work for a major big company. Now if you are selling cars and making commission on each sale along with a regular salary (with guaranteed hours) then yea. Not too many people that can do that though.

Rogifan
Jun 24, 2012, 11:49 PM
I wish Apple would tell the NY Times to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. Of course they won't because Tim Cook is too nice of a guy.

chinesedemo
Jun 24, 2012, 11:54 PM
These people work in ******** retail? What do they think they are worth? As a stockholder I see where this is going and I am not ******** pleased. I love how defeatism spreads in America. Those retail employees are able to sell so much per square foot because of what the big boys do. Apple retail would have done just as well if you had monkeys instead of human employes. They are retail workers, any one on Earth can do their job. Hence the low pay. It's appropriate for what they do. If we start going this direction we are all f*cked. Because I want more compensation now too?

MacNewsFix
Jun 24, 2012, 11:56 PM
The company also offers very good benefits for a retailer, including health care, 401(k) contributions and the chance to buy company stock, as well as Apple products, at a discount.

401(k) contributions and, more so, health care are worth their weight in gold. Ask anybody that has had to go without them.

IJ Reilly
Jun 25, 2012, 12:01 AM
This is pretty ridiculous, since when do companies "share" their wealth with employees based on dollars earned per square foot? They aren't owners, they're employees. As long as their compensation is comparable to other retail jobs, where's the problem? No one gets rich working retail, that sucks but that's just the way it is. You want to get rich then write some software after leaving the Apple Store.

What you say is true, as far as it goes. But the big picture is one of stagnant wages and downward mobility for a very large part of the U.S. workforce. This has been going on for 35 years or more, as the economy shifts from a manufacturing to a service basis. Most of these jobs pay less than a living wage and provide little or no opportunity for advancement. So while Apple is no worse than most and perhaps better than many in the industry, the problem of such a large part of our workforce being stuck in poorly paying, deadend jobs is very real. The only problem with the Times article is that it picks on Apple instead of a company (say, Wal-Mart) that treats their employees even worse, and fails to go after the larger issue.

----------

We recently put a job opening up on Craigslist for a small retail store in NY for pretty much a stock boy / delivery boy position at 8 bucks an hour with no health benefits. We got over 200 applicants in 7 days.

Making 12 bucks an hour, plus full medical and 401K in a mall selling computers that essentially sell themselves is pretty sweet in my opinion.

I think you are drawing entirely the wrong lesson from your example.

StupidNerd
Jun 25, 2012, 12:01 AM
I don't understand why people are so upset about higher wages. Yeah it is retail, but these people do more than just ringing up high ticket items. Often they are providing solutions to you and your idiotic family members that cannot figure anything out or refuse to use google. These people are the reason customers go to apple stores and not walmart, target or best buy. I don't see anything wrong with looking for ways to retain or attract good employees.

chairguru22
Jun 25, 2012, 12:03 AM
I used to work at the Apple store in KOP, PA making $10/hr. The people who ran the kiosks in the middle selling Pillow Pals and knockoff sunglasses got $15/hr. Many other retailers got paid more.

You can't have a family and afford Apple products for $10/hr.

joeshmo2010
Jun 25, 2012, 12:06 AM
If you want to make some good money in retail, then work for Neimen Marcus or Nordstrom. The top three sellers in my dept at Nordstrom make between 80K-110K a year. All commission, no base. (If you make base then you're going I get fired because you only get base if you don't meet your goals)

ade2bee
Jun 25, 2012, 12:07 AM
Why is everyone blinkered and stuck to the fact that if you do something for a living you should be hearded into a certain wage/socio-economic level. If you work for a outstanding brand, and it is proven that you have contributed at a major level to that brand you should get the percentage of the wealth, therefore work harder or justify it. That is capitalism. Don't get enough wage there get another job, that is the evilness of globalism.

Pyrrhic Victory
Jun 25, 2012, 12:07 AM
Anyone who whines about retailers' compensation should remember that if Apple wasn't so greedy, there would be no iDevices, Macs, or any other of your favorite Apple products. They devote so much time and effort into developing new technology because there's such a massive amount of money to be made.

Peace
Jun 25, 2012, 12:08 AM
So..when did Google/Samsung buy the NY Times ?

jelew1985
Jun 25, 2012, 12:08 AM
That depends highly on what you sell and how valuable you are. 95% of retail employees do not make anything above minimum hourly wage. Not a whole lot even if you work for a major big company. Now if you are selling cars and making commission on each sale along with a regular salary (with guaranteed hours) then yea. Not too many people that can do that though.

Yea a traditional Retail employee don't make much and it sucks for them. They should be compensated at least a little more. A company like Apple could set the pay structure a little different where they have a base pay of $10 and then a percentage of what they sell. So if they were to sell $500,000 and be given 1.8% of that, it would put them at $20,780 + $9,000 (of commission). That would be pretty healthy of a pay for them. This is based on 40 a week. I know they may not necessarily get 40 a week. But just giving a rough idea what can be done.

The company I work for treats their employees very well and compensates them well also.

TMar
Jun 25, 2012, 12:08 AM
I used to work at the Apple store in KOP, PA making $10/hr. The people who ran the kiosks in the middle selling Pillow Pals and knockoff sunglasses got $15/hr.

You can't have a family and afford Apple products for $10/hr.

If your lifetime career choice is retail salesperson at a mall you might want to look into some of your past life choices.

emaja
Jun 25, 2012, 12:09 AM
I used to work at the Apple store in KOP, PA making $10/hr. The people who ran the kiosks in the middle selling Pillow Pals and knockoff sunglasses got $15/hr. Many other retailers got paid more.

You can't have a family and afford Apple products for $10/hr.

Not to be too callous, but get a different job and cut your expenses if your current one does not meet your needs. I understand the job market is tight, but those are your choices.

No one says you have to be able to afford the products you sell.

cosmichobo
Jun 25, 2012, 12:11 AM
I used to be a credit controller for an insurance company...

I chased $millions every month... and only ever had to write off/send for legal action a very tiny %...

Only got paid $35,000pa...

Admittedly, if the company made a profit for the year, there was a bonus paid to employees, however due to technical losses and other bookkeeping, I only received that bonus once...

hissyfit
Jun 25, 2012, 12:13 AM
How about lowering prices, that'll boom sales!

Pyrrhic Victory
Jun 25, 2012, 12:13 AM
Why is everyone blinkered and stuck to the fact that if you do something for a living you should be hearded into a certain wage/socio-economic level. If you work for a outstanding brand, and it is proven that you have contributed at a major level to that brand you should get the percentage of the wealth, therefore work harder or justify it. That is capitalism. Don't get enough wage there get another job, that is the evilness of globalism.

Wrong, capitalism follows the law of supply and demand, not the labor theory of value. There is no reason for Apple to pay ANY of its employees, including executives, a penny more than the market will bear. I guarantee you there are some directors and maybe even executives who feel they are underpaid. But Apple has created so much demand for employment relative to the supply of available positions that it has depressed the compensation the market has determined as being fair for those positions.

fitshaced
Jun 25, 2012, 12:14 AM
Sometimes when you walk into a store (any store), you get a sales person who actually has to do his job and convince you that te product he has is right for you. You decide if you want to buy it or not. If you do, that guy has earned his money and deserves commission.

Walk into an apple store and you get fewer staff having to do that due to the apple fans holding their wallets open even before a release of a new product. That's not difficult. Sure, having to deal with a difficult customer is hard. That doesn't mean you deserve a bigger portion of the pie. The first thing you get taught when dealing with customers is to not take it personally. If you do, you shouldn't be in retails. If you don't, you job really isn't that hard anymore.

If you want to earn more money, find a different job. These guys owe apple nothing and apple owe them what they said they'd pay them.

chairguru22
Jun 25, 2012, 12:15 AM
Yea a traditional Retail employee don't make much and it sucks for them. They should be compensated at least a little more. A company like Apple could set the pay structure a little different where they have a base pay of $10 and then a percentage of what they sell. So if they were to sell $500,000 and be given 1.8% of that, it would put them at $20,780 + $9,000 (of commission). That would be pretty healthy of a pay for them. This is based on 40 a week. I know they may not necessarily get 40 a week. But just giving a rough idea what can be done.

The company I work for treats their employees very well and compensates them well also.

$500,000/yr is LOW too... that's $240/hr...

Apple will never do commission based pay. Too many people lining up for these jobs because it's fun to work there. Turnover rate is high since people move on to bigger and better things.

TheNextBigThing
Jun 25, 2012, 12:15 AM
The fact that Apple employs tens of thousands of jobs in US is already a big contribution in the US Economy. :)

Icy1007
Jun 25, 2012, 12:15 AM
Because making ~$12.00 at a retail job is terrible. :rolleyes:

Yeah, that's pretty bad.

alfonsog
Jun 25, 2012, 12:18 AM
Back in the day before wages stagnated someone could make a living and even support the spouse and a kid from just being a retail salesperson. Now that's a job for young people or a spouse's or second job for adults. Apple pays more than the average retailer. It's up to you if you think that is fair. Disney World pays much less than average yet my friends still work there because its Disney.

jelew1985
Jun 25, 2012, 12:18 AM
$500,000/yr is LOW too... that's $240/hr...

Apple will never do commission based pay. Too many people lining up for these jobs because it's fun to work there. Turnover rate is high since people move on to bigger and better things.

I think you may have misread that... $500,000 is the sales volume of what an employee sales in a year not their pay. Which is why I mentioned they could pay them a small percentage of their personal sales volume.

ethana
Jun 25, 2012, 12:20 AM
Apple's pay rates are above average for the retail sector, but the Times argues that with each retail store employee bringing in an average of $500,000 in sales per year Apple is not a typical retailer.

LOL. This statement is so lame. The reason Apple makes $500,000/yr isn't because of the employees. It's because of the products, advertising, design of the retail stores, pricing, training of the employees on how to act, etc. THAT is what makes the money.

No offense to anyone here who works at an Apple retail store but you are just like any other retail outlet. You will get trained to act and perform in a specific way, and you will get paid low wages, end of story. Why? Because most anyone with a high school degree can get trained to do what you do. Just because a company makes millions doesn't mean that you get a piece of the pie.

This is America, king of capitalism. If you don't like what you get paid, do one of the following:

1. Find a new job that pays higher.
2. Get an education and then do #1.

Apple has done a fine job at keeping pace with similar retailers. I think it's crap that they are getting slammed on this when practically EVERY American company (including Apple) outsources their assembly lines to China where they get paid $0.03/hr!

NYT is nitpicking at Apple because they are so big. That is ALL this is.

Ethan

chairguru22
Jun 25, 2012, 12:21 AM
I think you may have misread that... $500,000 is the sales volume of what an employee sales in a year not their pay. Which is why I mentioned they could pay them a small percentage of their personal sales volume.

Selling $500,000/yr volume is low. It's $240/hr. Or less than an iPod Touch/hr... You can do two MBP in 15 min... or 4 iPhones in 2 min...

An Apple employee could break $1,000,000 pretty easily...

swingerofbirch
Jun 25, 2012, 12:21 AM
I agree with the angry sentiment expressed throughout the thread. These unskilled workers don't realize how lucky they are to be part a movement so much bigger than they are and so much more important than their individual lives. I feel like if we could round up all the true believers on MacRumors, we could petition Apple to allow us to volunteer in their retail stores, which might allow Apple to at the least stop this wage inflation. Even if we already have full time jobs, we could pitch in on the weekends when Apple Stores are the busiest. Some of us think that our duties as evangelists ended when Apple became the world's most valuable company, but really we are now in a position where we are at the top and we have to fight to stay here. Our mission may no longer be to convert people since the "rest of us" is now all of us, but it takes on different forms such as disputing the myths about labor issues in China and ensuring Apple's American labor doesn't forget what and whom it's working for.

hollin
Jun 25, 2012, 12:21 AM
As a former Apple retail employee, I'm curious. Why are people complaining for me? I loved my job.

Small White Car
Jun 25, 2012, 12:21 AM
On the one hand, Apple's paying more than they have to, suply and demand, capitalism, yadda yadda yadda. Bottom line, they don't deserve complaints over this. So I'm not actually critisizing Apple. Clearly they don't need to pay more, so why should they?

On the other hand, it's interesting to think of a car salesman who moves $500,000 worth of cars per year. He'd be making way more money doing that.

So it's interesting...we like to compare computers to cars so much, but here's one place the analogy falls flat. Why the difference? If supply and demand means people will sell Macs for $25k, why won't car salesman? Is that job really much harder?

Or does the article have a point? Perhaps people's love of Apple is keeping their employee 'supply' numbers artificially higher than they should be.

Again, I'm not saying that's Apple's fault. Just that it might be true and, if so, that's interesting.

levitynyc
Jun 25, 2012, 12:22 AM
I used to work at the Apple store in KOP, PA making $10/hr. The people who ran the kiosks in the middle selling Pillow Pals and knockoff sunglasses got $15/hr. Many other retailers got paid more.

You can't have a family and afford Apple products for $10/hr.

Ask a luxury car salesman how many product he sells that he can actually afford.

jelew1985
Jun 25, 2012, 12:23 AM
Selling $500,000/yr volume is low. It's $240/hr. Or less than an iPod Touch/hr... You can do two MBP in 15 min... or 4 iPhones in 2 min...

An Apple employee could break $1,000,000 pretty easily...

Yea $500,000 is low number, I was just simply going off of what the article stated.

TheNextBigThing
Jun 25, 2012, 12:23 AM
Yeah, that's pretty bad.

Salary is not just the reason why these employees work for Apple. Fun time of talking to different kind of people about tech stuffs is also a nice experience. :)

faroZ06
Jun 25, 2012, 12:25 AM
If the Apple Store don't like their salaries, they are more than welcome to go work somewhere else.

Capitalism wins here.

Yep.

And by similar logic, shouldn't government employees be paid -$6 per hour? You know, given the government's success?

jackzig
Jun 25, 2012, 12:25 AM
These people work in ******** retail? What do they think they are worth? As a stockholder I see where this is going and I am not ******** pleased. I love how defeatism spreads in America. Those retail employees are able to sell so much per square foot because of what the big boys do. Apple retail would have done just as well if you had monkeys instead of human employes. They are retail workers, any one on Earth can do their job. Hence the low pay. It's appropriate for what they do. If we start going this direction we are all f*cked. Because I want more compensation now too?

I take it you've never worked retail, and I really don't care if your are ******* pleased or not. :mad:

Apple retail stores have done well because they sell excellent products, in an outstanding environment, and also because they have intelligent, hardworking employees. Steve wanted to create a great experience for the customer, he accomplished that. He got all the pieces working together. Intelligent, knowledgable employees are a key part of the retail puzzle.

I doubt you could do their job, because from your smart***ed attitude I don't think many people would buy anything from you much less an expensive computer.

No, I am not an Apple retail employee, I am however an Apple stockholder, and I think that good Apple retail salespersons deserve an excellent compensation package. I applaud Tim Cooks actions in this regard. :)

ethana
Jun 25, 2012, 12:26 AM
I used to work at the Apple store in KOP, PA making $10/hr. The people who ran the kiosks in the middle selling Pillow Pals and knockoff sunglasses got $15/hr. Many other retailers got paid more.

You can't have a family and afford Apple products for $10/hr.

So why didn't you go get a job at the Pillow Pals place then?

See, this is the problem. You got paid $10/hr, which you felt was low, and yet you STILL chose to work there. WHY?

Ten of thousands of people work at Apple retail stores, and even without the generous 25% raise they just got, they STILL would be working there. The reason Apple pays what it does is because people are willing to work at those wages.

People need jobs in this economy and Apple provides them. In fact, their wages are fair compared to others! So what is the problem again?

faroZ06
Jun 25, 2012, 12:26 AM
They are already paid according to skill level and supply.

Craigwilliam
Jun 25, 2012, 12:26 AM
These people work in ******** retail? What do they think they are worth? As a stockholder I see where this is going and I am not ******** pleased. I love how defeatism spreads in America. Those retail employees are able to sell so much per square foot because of what the big boys do. Apple retail would have done just as well if you had monkeys instead of human employes. They are retail workers, any one on Earth can do their job. Hence the low pay. It's appropriate for what they do. If we start going this direction we are all f*cked. Because I want more compensation now too?

Apple is well known for it's good customer service, these people aren't just monkeys will apple on their shirts. You shouldn't be so quick to dump all over Apple Store employees considering I read some stories recently that Apple store employees will be getting a pay rise.

fitshaced
Jun 25, 2012, 12:28 AM
.

So it's interesting...we like to compare computers to cars so much, but here's one place the analogy falls flat. Why the difference? If supply and demand means people will sell Macs for $25k, why won't car salesman? Is that job really much harder?


Is car sales much harder than selling iPhones? Em yeah a little bit. Was that a serious post?

TheNextBigThing
Jun 25, 2012, 12:28 AM
As a former Apple retail employee, I'm curious. Why are people complaining for me? I loved my job.

Would you please tell me what are the requirements in applying for an Apple Retail employee? I also think it's an awesome experience to work at an Apple Retail Store. :cool:

chairguru22
Jun 25, 2012, 12:29 AM
Apple employees are underpaid, period. Comparing them to other retailers, fast food jobs, etc. Paying them $10/hr is too low.

If a company makes a lot of money, they should pay their employees more. Right?

Why should a company who makes a lot of money pay their employees less?

Should a person working at Abercrombie be paid more or as much as an Apple employee?

The fact is, people like to work for Apple so they take less money. Then the day comes they need to feed their families and get another job.

----------

Would you please tell me what are the requirements in applying for an Apple Retail employee? I also think it's an awesome experience to work at an Apple Retail Store. :cool:

Knowledge of Apple products, some retail experience. They are always hiring, I'm sure anyone could get a job there.

JohnDoe98
Jun 25, 2012, 12:29 AM
Commissions at Apple is a bad idea, the employees would start to become very pushy and try to up-sell you on all kinds of stuff that isn't needed. Part of what makes the ethos so nice is that the employees are there to serve you in a relaxed and approachable manor.

IJ Reilly
Jun 25, 2012, 12:30 AM
The amount of social Darwinism being espoused in this thread is sadly predicable. Some clearly need to acquaint themselves with the redistribution of the wages curve over the last 35 years. It is kind of depressing to hear so many people who are not only unaware of what has occurred over this period of time, but who apparantly accept and even celebrate the new order. All hail downward mobility.

chairguru22
Jun 25, 2012, 12:31 AM
Commissions at Apple is a bad idea, the employees would start to become very pushy and try to up-sell you on all kinds of stuff that isn't needed. Part of what makes the ethos so nice is that the employees are there to serve you in a relaxed and approachable manor.

Exactly.

TheNextBigThing
Jun 25, 2012, 12:32 AM
So why didn't you go get a job at the Pillow Pals place then?

See, this is the problem. You got paid $10/hr, which you felt was low, and yet you STILL chose to work there. WHY?

Ten of thousands of people work at Apple retail stores, and even without the generous 25% raise they just got, they STILL would be working there. The reason Apple pays what it does is because people are willing to work at those wages.

People need jobs in this economy and Apple provides them. In fact, their wages are fair compared to others! So what is the problem again?

Well said. The problem is that some people don't understand the economic contribution Apple provides. All they want to do is to complain, complain, complain.

Slovak
Jun 25, 2012, 12:33 AM
Apple is not paying its retail staff enough given the success of the stores, instead relying on its employees' devotion to the company

Because there are no other precedents for that. For that matter, most of us just work for the paycheck. No intrinsic interest in the actual job. Ask a teacher, nurse, or a person in the military. No devotion there.

</sarcasm>

Eso
Jun 25, 2012, 12:33 AM
If the Apple Store don't like their salaries, they are more than welcome to go work somewhere else.

Capitalism wins here.

Yep - screwing the lowest guy on the totem pole just like it is designed to do.

It's ironic that they are the ones that tend to defend it.

TMar
Jun 25, 2012, 12:35 AM
I take it you've never worked retail, and I really don't care if your are ******* pleased or not. :mad:

Apple retail stores have done well because they sell excellent products, in an outstanding environment, and also because they have intelligent, hardworking employees. Steve wanted to create a great experience for the customer, he accomplished that. He got all the pieces working together. Intelligent, knowledgable employees are a key part of the retail puzzle.

I doubt you could do their job, because from your smart***ed attitude I don't think many people would buy anything from you much less an expensive computer.

No, I am not an Apple retail employee, I am however an Apple stockholder, and I think that good Apple retail salespersons deserve an excellent compensation package. I applaud Tim Cooks actions in this regard. :)

Hardworking? I take it you've never done a hard days work in your life then. They might be there and they may do some things but hard work it is not. I have to say the closest thing I have done to retail was working a full service station in high school. While that was busy 95% of the time it wasn't hard work. Hard work was working material handling in a factory lifting/pulling/slinging tens of 1000's of lbs of materials 10-12 hours a day 5-6 days a week just out of high school.

Small White Car
Jun 25, 2012, 12:37 AM
Is car sales much harder than selling iPhones? Em yeah a little bit. Was that a serious post?

Why? Every time I've bought a car the salesman drives around with me and then passes me off to his "manager" who actually finishes the sale.

That first guy doesn't seem to have that hard of a job and I know he's getting commission. I'm just saying that the car salesman seems to make more money than many other retail jobs. I find that interesting. You don't?

luqtotheman
Jun 25, 2012, 12:42 AM
First off people that say "if they don't like their job they should just quit if they don't like" or "people would be dying to have their" blah blah blah bunch of crap. Just because apple can do that and in fact is true doesn't mean it ethical nor the right thing to do. They already pimp China for dirt cheap labor, we shouldn't be doing that to young talented Americans.

Why does Tim Cook deserve 570 million? At least Steve jobs was the mastermind behind apple.

Apple employee's should pay their employees more, I'm not sure how much but for a company making that much money they should start out more than $11.25 an hour. They can't even afford to buy the products they sell.

But i disagree with them claiming how much the specialist's sell. By the time a customer comes in the store they already made up their mind they want an apple product. They are a key part to apple's success no doubt.

Undecided
Jun 25, 2012, 12:43 AM
^ haha, americans.

I prefer the term "merkin."

Technarchy
Jun 25, 2012, 12:44 AM
How in demand your skill is determines the value of your wages.

There is no scarcity for retail workers in Apple stores. However if you're the guy that knows how to program for OSX or iOS and you can do it well, obviously your worth goes up dramatically.

rickdollar
Jun 25, 2012, 12:44 AM
Nothing would be worse than Apple retail employees working on commission. I don't care how much the Times says they should be. I HATE and avoid going into businesses where the staff is on commission.

The stuff they wrote about happens in nearly all retail jobs. No one lives happily ever after in retail. Rude costumers, not enough time to finish your work, working through breaks and lunches and saying you didn't.... been there done that. It's called working in retail, NY Times. You need to get out more.

fitshaced
Jun 25, 2012, 12:46 AM
Why? Every time I've bought a car the salesman drives around with me and then passes me off to his "manager" who actually finishes the sale.

That first guy doesn't seem to have that hard of a job and I know he's getting commission. I'm just saying that the car salesman seems to make more money than many other retail jobs. I find that interesting. You don't?

Good for him that he gets an easy sale from people like you. How often do you think that happens? Buying a car is a much bigger decision than buying a phone. Apple staff might even make up a large chunk of that 500,000 on product launch which is when they aren't even trying to sell, they are trying to clear up thousands of customers who queued all night. You don't sell Ford Focuses like that.

Avarix
Jun 25, 2012, 12:46 AM
I worked retail for years and was in a position to know how much "associate" employees made at Bed Bath & Beyond. There was one Associate out of 30 stores I could access making more then $13.00 an hour. Retail pays ****, always has always will. It's not so much the pay as the lack of benefits or vacation time. The friends I know who work for Apple retail are quite happy with there pay and job.

DisMyMac
Jun 25, 2012, 12:48 AM
There is nothing wrong with applying social pressure this way.

It's not like this is the government dictating wages- these are independent journalists speaking out freely.

BC2009
Jun 25, 2012, 12:50 AM
So if each employee brings in an average of $500,000 a year and take home $25,000 a year then that is roughly 5% of their total sales. Ya thats a little low. However, they could just increase the percentage to like 7% which would bring in roughly $35,000 a year for the employees. That would be a dramatic jump in pay. That is if they were being paid commission.

The assumption you are making is that the product is selling because that particular retail employee did something another could not. Apple sells products primarily because:

1) Engineers designed them well (software and hardware)
2) Marketing positioned them well in the competitive landscape
3) Retail policies and training trained the retail employees to follow Apple's retail methodology
4) Support policies and customer service policies have made customers feel secure buying from Apple

Certainly there are great retail sales people, but if the retail staff was highly skilled and irreplaceable and the primary reason for those sales then they would deserve a bigger chunk of the pie. So long as the primary marketable skills of the retail employees comes from Apple's internal training program then Apple is going to know they can replace an employee with another one if given the right training. This is called basic supply and demand. If good retail employees were in short supply then their value would increase.

It seems to me that skilled jobs like teachers should be getting paid far more than retail staff and they only start at $25,000 to $35,000 per year in many states (see http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state).

As long as Apple is paying more than the average retail shop for the same kind of work then they are being more than fair.

fitshaced
Jun 25, 2012, 12:52 AM
There is nothing wrong with applying social pressure this way.

It's not like this is the government dictating wages- these are independent journalists speaking out freely.

Well I agree and I wouldn't begrudge these people getting a 500% pay rise. People get paid what they get paid. The only times that bothers me is football players, politicians and bank ceo's etc getting wages that no-one can justify, ever!

But, these apple workers are actually adding to their own problem (if there is one) by joining Apple and accepting the wages on offer in the first place.

BasilFawlty
Jun 25, 2012, 12:53 AM
Did you read the article? Where in it did the NYT propose that the government should mandate pay raises based on company success? Stop trying to make this political. If you disagree with the NYT's perspective, that's your prerogative. But turning this political is a bit silly.

Absolutely - NYT never ever has any political agenda. Wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more.

adamantpradeep
Jun 25, 2012, 12:53 AM
Seriously Tim, stop listening/appeasing the media. It is a one way game which will only end in tragedy for Apple. It is precisely these kind of communist propaganda papers that destroyed so many good employers in the UK and stripped this country of the creators. Now they run screaming around for jobs let alone a pay raise.

O man.. Tim you think it is a small change in policy(appeasing the communist media).. but it will have a deadly impact to Apple. It is connected.

Re: the Retailers compensation, remember it is upto the retail employees to accept the raise or leave if dissatisfied, thats the way it works.

kiljoy616
Jun 25, 2012, 12:56 AM
If the Apple Store don't like their salaries, they are more than welcome to go work somewhere else.

Capitalism wins here.

That not capitalism not in our new economy, not that I care who is not making money. Capitalism with Government allowing the cronies type to flourish and companies given voting rights and even the ability to circumvent laws which we seem to be on the way too is in no way Capitalism for the masses but hey I never said life was fair.:p

----------

Because making ~$12.00 at a retail job is terrible. :rolleyes:

Just bring back servitude lets not kid our selves no one here cares. :o

Small White Car
Jun 25, 2012, 12:57 AM
Good for him that he gets an easy sale from people like you. How often do you think that happens? Buying a car is a much bigger decision than buying a phone.

Exactly, a car is MUCH more important which is why I put in way more research time up front. A car salesman really can't do anything to counteract the hours of research I've done. I know what I'm going to buy well before I talk to a salesman.

But an electronics salesman? Sure, maybe they'll convince me to change my mind and buy something different. As you said, it's not as big of a purchase so I'm more willing to change my mind.

I'm agreeing with the folks who say "if you quit, Apple can replace you with dozens of other people." I just find it odd that that doesn't apply to car salesmen. I feel like they have even less control over the outcome, so it's interesting that they seem to be valued more.

iMikeT
Jun 25, 2012, 12:58 AM
To be fair, many companies deserve this kind of criticism, it just so happens that Apple is the target here.

Capitalism, Libertarianism, Free Marketism has never really worked. Workers get the shaft while execs reap the benefits.

I read all of the "these employees should be happy to make ~$12/hour ("still better than minimum wage"), if they don't like it go work elsewhere, a job's a job" comments but really, that kind of money is not a living wage to begin with.

No matter the job, workers have rights. Making a living wage, one where an individual does not have to worry about where their next meal will come from, whether or not they'll be able to make this month's rent, or a disaster will leave them in the poorhouse, should be a right to any person regardless or job title.

"Necessitous men are not free men" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt


---


*Full disclosure. I make money on the side by trading stocks (capitalism). I am currently holding several positions in various companies and one of them is a long position in AAPL.

kiljoy616
Jun 25, 2012, 12:58 AM
I used to work at the Apple store in KOP, PA making $10/hr. The people who ran the kiosks in the middle selling Pillow Pals and knockoff sunglasses got $15/hr. Many other retailers got paid more.

You can't have a family and afford Apple products for $10/hr.

Well said but don't expect much pity from the lot here. Wrong place for human compassion. :rolleyes:

Ryth
Jun 25, 2012, 12:58 AM
So if each employee brings in an average of $500,000 a year and take home $25,000 a year then that is roughly 5% of their total sales. Ya thats a little low. However, they could just increase the percentage to like 7% which would bring in roughly $35,000 a year for the employees. That would be a dramatic jump in pay. That is if they were being paid commission.

These people are not 'selling' Apple products. They are there basically to take the $$$ from the consumer.

The products SELL themselves.

There is nothing really special about the floor employees for the most part. Genius Bar...different story.

There is a HUGE difference if these employees actually were involved in getting someone to buy Apple vs some major competitor but we know that's not the case.

pdjudd
Jun 25, 2012, 12:58 AM
There is nothing wrong with applying social pressure this way.

It is when they just highlight one successful company and ignore other retail companies that pay much less than Apple does and is quite successful too. Just focussing on one company (that people already pay attention due thanks to itís success allows for the worst offenders to get a pass since they donít get mentioned.

You want to apply social pressure, you have to do it across the board or else you never will accomplish anything.

MacDav
Jun 25, 2012, 12:59 AM
Wow, yet another anti-capitalism, anti-Apple diatribe from the NYT. What a surprise. Perhaps the government should mandate pay rates based on a company's success in the marketplace. Am I right comrades?

Thanks for the laugh.

People are paid by how much they know, and in a free market, if they know a lot, and are highly qualified they can go where the money is. A booming economy is a big help also. Apple has done the right thing in giving raises to their retail staff. For the most part they do know more than someone flipping burgers at Macdonalds. (Some may disagree here :p). If you think unqualified people should make the same money as highly qualified people, then I suggest you start working for your local communist party branch office, and if you work hard, study and learn a lot... well then good for you, it's not about the money...right?

Ryth
Jun 25, 2012, 01:00 AM
Yep.

And by similar logic, shouldn't government employees be paid -$6 per hour? You know, given the government's success?

Actually Government workers should be paid really low salaries. For what is accomplished, if it was a private sector business, the government would be a horrible company and would be broke 15 trillion times over.

kiljoy616
Jun 25, 2012, 01:01 AM
They are already paid according to skill level and supply.

ROFLMAO, you must still live at home with your mom. That statement does not even show your understanding of the economy we live in or how its going to get ever better for people like me and bad for people like them. :D

fitshaced
Jun 25, 2012, 01:03 AM
Exactly, a car is MUCH more important which is why I put in way more research time up front. A car salesman really can't do anything to counteract the hours of research I've done. I know what I'm going to buy well before I talk to a salesman.

But an electronics salesman? Sure, maybe they'll convince me to change my mind and buy something different. As you said, it's not as big of a purchase so I'm more willing to change my mind.

I'm agreeing with the folks who say "if you quit, Apple can replace you with dozens of other people." I just find it odd that that doesn't apply to car salesmen. I feel like they have even less control over the outcome, so it's interesting that they seem to be valued more.

There is no way I'm prepared to believe that you think selling a car is as easy as selling a phone. I accept that some people have made their mind up before they speak to a sales person. But the sales person needs to know the product far better than an apple employee needs to know an iPhone. It's far easier to lose a customer when trying to sell a car than when trying to sell a phone. There's often more time invested in each customer when selling a car than when picking up a phone, swiping a card and putting it in a bag.

pdjudd
Jun 25, 2012, 01:05 AM
I'm agreeing with the folks who say "if you quit, Apple can replace you with dozens of other people." I just find it odd that that doesn't apply to car salesmen. I feel like they have even less control over the outcome, so it's interesting that they seem to be valued more.

That nature of buying and selling cars is quite different than your average retail position. Thats mostly due to the economies involved and the sales process that happens. Your decisions into buying a $15K car is quite different than that of a computer. The demand for products is very different. Car buying involves a few high ticket items (where the actual money is often not obtained up front - not too many people drop 15k up front). Most other retails sales are done in larger quantities for smaller upfront amounts. The kind of customer interaction is very different too. In a normal store, you go in and you go out in a short amount of time and is a many customer to few staff. No so buying cars which is an involved process with a much smaller ratio.

Small White Car
Jun 25, 2012, 01:06 AM
There is no way I'm prepared to believe that you think selling a car is as easy as selling a phone. I accept that some people have made their mind up before they speak to a sales person. But the sales person needs to know the product far better than an apple employee needs to know an iPhone. It's far easier to lose a customer when trying to sell a car than when trying to sell a phone. There's often more time invested in each customer when selling a car than when picking up a phone, swiping a card and putting it in a bag.

This is less "I think it's easy" and more, "I don't respect car salesmen in any way."

Perhaps I'm getting off topic. Basically I dislike them and you're not really going to argue me into a changed opinion on that one.

This is where my fascination on the subject of pay differences originates.

chairguru22
Jun 25, 2012, 01:06 AM
There is no way I'm prepared to believe that you think selling a car is as easy as selling a phone. I accept that some people have made their mind up before they speak to a sales person. But the sales person needs to know the product far better than an apple employee needs to know an iPhone. It's far easier to lose a customer when trying to sell a car than when trying to sell a phone. There's often more time invested in each customer when selling a car than when picking up a phone, swiping a card and putting it in a bag.

I went to a Honda dealer the other week to test drive CR-Vs and the salesman didn't even know if it was 4 or 6 cylinder, AWD or not... I don't know if it was a show or what, it was weird...

kiljoy616
Jun 25, 2012, 01:08 AM
not too many people drop 15k up front)


Most people are poor so sure not the same, but for us who are not its all the same a car or a phone its just not something that matters much just as long as the service is there, reason I don't buy American cars, service is terrible even though many European cars are been built right here its the service and how they run their outlets that makes me come back again and again. Service is paramount to me not price.:cool:

mofunk
Jun 25, 2012, 01:16 AM
Please lol I wonder how much Protor and Gamble pay their employees at the warehouse?

barkomatic
Jun 25, 2012, 01:16 AM
No one is forcing Apple to raise the wages of their retail staff. However, every company has to live with the decisions it makes in the marketplace. If the public believes that Apple is giving it's retail employees the shaft then Apple may decide to raise those wages to protect its image--which it seems to be doing.

It's hilarious to me that some posters think that the free market should be the only influence upon a company, but at the same time think that these companies shouldn't be criticized.

TheNextBigThing
Jun 25, 2012, 01:16 AM
I went to a Honda dealer the other week to test drive CR-Vs and the salesman didn't even know if it was 4 or 6 cylinder, AWD or not... I don't know if it was a show or what, it was weird...

lol. If you really want superb customer service, better go to luxury car dealers. :D

TheNextBigThing
Jun 25, 2012, 01:18 AM
Please lol I wonder how much Protor and Gamble pay their employees at the warehouse?

Precisely! Some people only look just at one tree. Try looking at the whole forest. :D

leftywamumonkey
Jun 25, 2012, 01:20 AM
Selling a Macbook doesn't require any special training or education that takes years to learn and master. The normal workers (non-geniuses) are earning $12-14/hour. I don't see anything horrible about it.

Konrad
Jun 25, 2012, 01:22 AM
Yes, the American "compassion" so frequently manifested, also here, is one of the reasons people in Europe would rarely consider offers coming from the US. America has been miss advertised as a melting pot, as a land of opportunity, a free democracy among many other sugar pop propaganda campaigns enthusiastically repeated by the fooled populace where most will never see a Greek island, or Kenya outside of the ever glorified American mall lifestyle.

It's the trendy disposable gadget stupid, they don't change the world, as advertised. Effectively in the race for the newest, and, as told coolest gadgets, Americans furthered categorizing one another and they forgot that all are people while yapping about capitalism, democracy, self penile enlargement, and the eagle on their belt buckle. Except in sappy advertising campaigns. Here all are equal, happy and they will see the world. (in small print: but only virtually on our product)

mnemonix
Jun 25, 2012, 01:24 AM
There is no reason for Apple to pay ANY of its employees, including executives, a penny more than the market will bear.

Nothing. Except compassion, the desire to see society as a whole prosper rather than a few selfish individuals who got lucky, a sense of fairness maybe? The apparent lack of these basic human feelings in this thread, or labelling of them as 'defeatism', 'communism' etc saddens me beyond belief. I don't care if it's Apple or Walmart, we all deserve better than the race to the bottom determined by such a slavish adherence to the inhuman principles of this kind of capitalism.

And to those self proclaimed stockholders here calling the retail staff undeserving monkeys, what exactly was it you did to further Apples prosperity? Oh you sat on your backside gambling. I hope you're proud of yourselves.

HughJigo
Jun 25, 2012, 01:25 AM
Here's how amazing the staff at America's Apple store are.

My wife and I were in the States three years ago and went the Apple Store at a mall in the LA area. We spoke to a sales guy there for a while.

That night we were at a restaurant more than an hour away from there, and the same guy came and sat at the table next to us.

How's that for amazing customer service? I don't know how he even knew we were going to be at that restaurant. We didn't even know. We just went in there and suddenly, there he was. It's not like we had iPhones or anything so he could trace our location.

The weird thing was, he wasn't friendly to us at the Apple Store and he didn't even talk to us at the restaurant.

TMar
Jun 25, 2012, 01:26 AM
Capitalism, Libertarianism, Free Marketism has never really worked. Workers get the shaft while execs reap the benefits.

I read all of the "these employees should be happy to make ~$12/hour ("still better than minimum wage"), if they don't like it go work elsewhere, a job's a job" comments but really, that kind of money is not a living wage to begin with.

To be fair, many companies deserve this kind of criticism, it just so happens that Apple is the target here.

No matter the job, workers have rights. Making a living wage, one where an individual does not have to worry about where their next meal will come from, whether or not they'll be able to make this month's rent, or a disaster will leave them in the poorhouse, should be a right to any person regardless or job title.

"Necessitous men are not free men" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt


---


*Full disclosure. I make money on the side by trading stocks (capitalism). I am currently holding several positions in various companies and one of them is a long position in AAPL.

Again if someones career choice is retail salesperson at the local mall, then they don't have much room to complain. It is NOT a career. $12/hr is a living wage. The problem is most people don't live within their means. I've worked minimum wage jobs and listen to co workers complain about how broke they were. Yet I didn't live paycheck to paycheck. They choose to spend money on stuff they didn't need.

It's like some of our state workers that complain about the furlough days. If you're live so close to means that you can't take a 4 days a year hit then you need to reassess where some of your bills.

fitshaced
Jun 25, 2012, 01:31 AM
Nothing. Except compassion, the desire to see society as a whole prosper rather than a few selfish individuals who got lucky, a sense of fairness maybe? The apparent lack of these basic human feelings in this thread, or labelling of them as 'defeatism', 'communism' etc saddens me beyond belief. I don't care if it's Apple or Walmart, we all deserve better than the race to the bottom determined by such a slavish adherence to the inhuman principles of this kind of capitalism.

And to those self proclaimed stockholders here calling the retail staff undeserving monkeys, what exactly was it you did to further Apples prosperity? Oh you sat on your backside gambling. I hope you're proud of yourselves.

Why is it not ok now for these employees to get paid what they get paid when it was perfectly fine for them to take these jobs at these rates?

----------

Here's how amazing the staff at America's Apple store are.

My wife and I were in the States three years ago and went the Apple Store at a mall in the LA area. We spoke to a sales guy there for a while.

That night we were at a restaurant more than an hour away from there, and the same guy came and sat at the table next to us.

How's that for amazing customer service? I don't know how he even knew we were going to be at that restaurant. We didn't even know. We just went in there and suddenly, there he was. It's not like we had iPhones or anything so he could trace our location.

The weird thing was, he wasn't friendly to us at the Apple Store and he didn't even talk to us at the restaurant.

Eh?

aottke
Jun 25, 2012, 01:35 AM
Did you read the article? Where in it did the NYT propose that the government should mandate pay raises based on company success? Stop trying to make this political. If you disagree with the NYT's perspective, that's your prerogative. But turning this political is a bit silly.

The NYT is a media outlet. They should be sharing news, not political views. Either way, it's incredibly anti-capitalist. A ton of these retail people are students and a lot work part-time. A $25,000/yr takeaway isn't bad for retail, seeing as it's an average. Apple pays well -- period. And it's not the retail staff that fuels Apple's massive sales -- it's the beyond-impressive products that the SIR Jonathan Ives of Apple build from the ground up to be the best in the market. They virtually sell themselves. This is bogus. I'm sick of people who are upset that someone made a great product and gets rewarded for it...

CapnJackGig
Jun 25, 2012, 01:36 AM
Came in expecting the blind fanboys to side against the employees, and I didn't leave disappointed. Absolutely pathetic.

mnemonix
Jun 25, 2012, 01:40 AM
Why is it not ok now for these employees to get paid what they get paid when it was perfectly fine for them to take these jobs at these rates?

It's never been ok to me, so it's quite acceptable for me to hold this position.

What is it with all this 'people chose to accept these jobs' comments? Does no one realise how hard it is out there to find any kind of job at the moment? I'm sure if they didn't accept these jobs and claimed welfare, you'd be the first to denigrate them for this too. And not everyone is cut out to be a professional, yet society could no more function without it's working class than the swathes of smug 'management' types on inflated salaries telling everyone else to live within their means while counting the income from their stocks and praising capitalism to the sky.

charlituna
Jun 25, 2012, 01:47 AM
Apple's pay rates are above average for the retail sector, but the Times argues that with each retail store employee bringing in an average of $500,000 in sales per year Apple is not a typical retailer.

So what, the NYT thinks they should pay the employees more because of the money they bring in. Such as say a commission. That's great. Now you'll have sales staff focused on making high priced sales and getting 'add ons' rather than what's right for the customer.

and the trainers etc that don't do sales will get nothing in commissions.

Great plan NYT

fitshaced
Jun 25, 2012, 01:47 AM
It's never been ok to me, so it's quite acceptable for me to hold this position.

What is it with all this 'people chose to accept these jobs' comments? Does no one realise how hard it is out there to find any kind of job at the moment? I'm sure if they didn't accept these jobs and claimed welfare, you'd be the first to denigrate them for this too. And not everyone is cut out to be a professional, yet society could no more function without it's working class than the swathes of smug 'management' types on inflated salaries telling everyone else to live within their means while counting the income from their stocks and praising capitalism to the sky.
Nope, I want them to do these jobs. But if they feel try need more money, then they need to do something about it. This article won't get them (another) pay rise, or atleast a significant one.

Sure, it's hard to get a job these days. But if you have one, be grateful. A previous poster mentioned how he lived on minimum wage, something these guys aren't expected to do. People too often live too fast for their money. If people were smarter, their current wages would suffice. Having an 46 inch LED tv is not a priority. But even people on minimum wage are buying them. Even people claiming welfare.

charlituna
Jun 25, 2012, 01:49 AM
When a company is as successful as Apple is, they draw a lot of attention. It's not unusual for them to be scrutinized. Apple loves the headlines anyway. The more attention the better. It's what makes the brand a very recognized name.

Something makes me doubt that Apple loves headlines that basically call them cheap, slave driving douche bags. Because contrary to the saying, not all press is good press

Snowshiro
Jun 25, 2012, 01:54 AM
If the Apple Store don't like their salaries, they are more than welcome to go work somewhere else.

Capitalism wins here.

Absolutely astounding.

There is widespread despair around the world about the fact that the rich elite are being rewarded and getting richer, and the gap between the top and bottom is getting wider despite corporate profits being at an all time high.

But as soon is it comes to Apple, rabid fanboyism just throws that sentiment out of the window and it's f%k you to anyone who dares question whether it would be fairer to spread some of that profit around a bit.

acslater017
Jun 25, 2012, 01:54 AM
To all the people claiming "It's only retail, quit whining":

Do Apple Stores resemble Old Navy, Pacsun, or the other retail stores at the mall? Do Specialists simply ring you up on the cash register and ask "do you want fries with that?" We've probably all had a negative experience or two at the Apple Store. But it's pretty obvious that they demands placed on Apple Store employees are pretty high, and the standards (customer satisfaction, store cleanliness, etc.) are likewise high.

Furthermore they are always packed to the gills, sometimes dealing with angry customers. Apple retail are as much a part of Apple's brand quality as PR, marketing, etc.

I'm not saying that they should be compensated as well as the guys in Cupertino with PhDs in engineering. But if they work hard and their stores are successful, then yes, they should be able to make a career out of it and not be broke.

charlituna
Jun 25, 2012, 01:56 AM
Seriously Tim, stop listening/appeasing the media.

Who says he is. Tim Cook and company are no more likely to listen to the media about this than they are about what features simply "must" be in the new whatever.

mnemonix
Jun 25, 2012, 01:56 AM
Sure, it's hard to get a job these days. But if you have one, be grateful. A previous poster mentioned how he lived on minimum wage, something these guys aren't expected to do. People too often live too fast for their money. If people were smarter, their current wages would suffice. Having an 46 inch LED tv is not a priority. But even people on minimum wage are buying them. Even people claiming welfare.

This is a total straw man argument. We are not discussing what people do with their income, merely how much it is and the fact that people in retail earn a pitifully small amount, so now trying to demonize all working class people for supposedly owning widescreen tvs is irrelevant and insulting.

Pyrrhic Victory
Jun 25, 2012, 01:57 AM
Nothing. Except compassion, the desire to see society as a whole prosper rather than a few selfish individuals who got lucky, a sense of fairness maybe? The apparent lack of these basic human feelings in this thread, or labelling of them as 'defeatism', 'communism' etc saddens me beyond belief. I don't care if it's Apple or Walmart, we all deserve better than the race to the bottom determined by such a slavish adherence to the inhuman principles of this kind of capitalism.

The basic flaw in your argument is that you consider capitalism to be a zero sum game where one person's gain necessitates another person's loss. In fact, capitalism is predicated on the creation of value and the voluntary exchange of value between entities. Selfishness is a quality to be admired because one can be selfish without being destructive to others.

Apple is a business, whose purpose is to create profit for its stockholders. It is not the responsibility of Apple to make "society" prosperous; rather, it is the responsibility of each individual member of society strive toward their own prosperity by offering exchanges of value, not demanding value yet to be earned.

mnemonix
Jun 25, 2012, 02:00 AM
Nope, I want them to do these jobs. But if they feel try need more money, then they need to do something about it.

And while we're at it... do something about it? Do what exactly? Not everyone can be management, aside from the fact that we don't all have the aptitude for it, your capitalist paradise would collapse if that's all anyone did. You have to have people doing all the other jobs, that doesn't mean they deserve to be treated any worse than anyone else - or not so idealistically: with such a huge inequality between those at the top and those at the bottom, as someone else pointed out above me.

currentinterest
Jun 25, 2012, 02:02 AM
An essential part of American capitalism is workers organizing into unions. Without them workers would still be paid in company script and be working in horrible conditions. Perhaps, it is time for Apple retail employees to organize and if necessary strike. The recent wage increases are probably being implemented to make this less likely.

straight-thunda
Jun 25, 2012, 02:03 AM
.

fitshaced
Jun 25, 2012, 02:05 AM
And while we're at it... do something about it? Do what exactly? Not everyone can be management, aside from the fact that we don't all have the aptitude for it, your capitalist paradise would collapse if that's all anyone did. You have to have people doing all the other jobs, that doesn't mean they deserve to be treated any worse than anyone else - or not so idealistically: with such a huge inequality between those at the top and those at the bottom, as someone else pointed out above me.

But people are doing these jobs and are accepting their wages???? Who says they are beig treated badly? NY Times? For those who don't like it, they need to take their own situation into their hands and do something. Doesn't need to be management or even anythig connected with what they are currently doing. I don't look down on anyone earning less than me. I respect anyone who pays their way in life. But I lose respect for whingers who think they are owed something.

mnemonix
Jun 25, 2012, 02:10 AM
The basic flaw in your argument is that you consider capitalism to be a zero sum game where one person's gain necessitates another person's loss. In fact, capitalism is predicated on the creation of value and the voluntary exchange of value between entities. Selfishness is a quality to be admired because one can be selfish without being destructive to others.

The less you pay your retail employees the more 'value' a company 'creates' to benefit another sector of the organisation (such as the stock holders) to use your own terminology. Common sense and the evidence of the growing disparity between those at the top of society and those at the bottom entirely disputes your argument here.

/V\acpower
Jun 25, 2012, 02:11 AM
The basic flaw in your argument is that you consider capitalism to be a zero sum game where one person's gain necessitates another person's loss. In fact, capitalism is predicated on the creation of value and the voluntary exchange of value between entities. Selfishness is a quality to be admired because one can be selfish without being destructive to others.

Apple is a business, whose purpose is to create profit for its stockholders. It is not the responsibility of Apple to make "society" prosperous; rather, it is the responsibility of each individual member of society strive toward their own prosperity by offering exchanges of value, not demanding value yet to be earned.

Economy isn't a "zero sum game", but "creating value" is not what speculators and "shareholders" are doing. Basically its not WallStreet who is "creating value". "Creating value" that's what designers, engineers, workers, etc, are doing everyday.

Basically, if anyone deserve to get some money from Apple massive pile of money its their workers and really not the shareholders.

ksgant
Jun 25, 2012, 02:13 AM
Unionize!

The Eternal Brotherhood of Apple Workers!

The Appsters.

The United Apple Workers.

They need one of those tattooed, pierced lipped hipsters to jump up on one of them strong, earthquake-proof tables in the store and hold up a sign just saying "UNION" while slowly turning around. (Norma Rae reference...ask your parents).

SeaFox
Jun 25, 2012, 02:16 AM
I hired all female staff based on the theory that they sell better...They did, and my store was consistently top of the sales tables.

Uh, isn't that illegal?

chipchen
Jun 25, 2012, 02:18 AM
I worked for Apple a few years ago... first as a Mac Specialist and then as a Mac Genius. Here's a few thoughts:

(remember, this is a few years ago and in the Los Angeles area)

1. They pay higher than any other retailer (without having specific skills/knowledge). It wasn't uncommon for a full time salesperson to make over $20/hr + full benefits. I knew some Geniuses that made $30/hr. (granted they were with the company early on)

2. Benefits were GREAT. Of all the companies I've worked for... Apple took care of their employees here. 3 weeks vacation with 5 days sick pay and many holidays... and great medical and other benefits. (Apple also had things like adoption assistance as a benefit... because S.J. himself was adopted.)

3. ESPP. Employee Stock Purchase Plan. Let's just say that if you put the max 15% of your paycheck into this, with Apple's stock prices climbing these past few years, and the 15% discount off the bottom price within a 6 month range, this could have added thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars to their bottom line annually.

4. Discounts. I spent a lot of money back with Apple... and we had a lot of great deals... not just with Apple products, but many 3rd party companies offered deep discounts to Apple employees. Wasn't uncommon to receive 50% off 3rd party products.

5. COME ON GUYS, IT'S RETAIL! For most people, this is not a career, and NYT shouldn't be profiling Apple Retail as if these people were lifers here. Retail is a crazy business and as far as employers go Apple was great, and there is ALWAYS somewhere they can improve.

I quit because I was tired of the customer, and felt Apple didn't adequately staff the Genius Bars. (I was working ALONE at the bar at a MAJOR store during prime hours BEFORE the reservation system was in place... imagine 30 people raising their hands when I asked who was next) This has since been addressed.

palmerc2
Jun 25, 2012, 02:20 AM
All the apple store employees look happy to me. If they don't like it they can leave, there's hundreds of thousands of people who'd gladly take their place like I once would've wanted to. It's not like they need a Master's Degree to work there for crying out loud.

Somebody will always find something to complain about to compensate for their deficiencies, in this case anti-capitalism. Oye....

Marrakas
Jun 25, 2012, 02:22 AM
For a job any person without education could do, I'd say they earn good money, and the discounts don't hurt neither.

mnemonix
Jun 25, 2012, 02:30 AM
Somebody will always find something to complain about to compensate for their deficiencies, in this case anti-capitalism. Oye....

Come on, surely you don't really believe we all have equal ability? intelligence? physical strength? We're all different and a lot of those differences are just how we are. I'm 5'6". Nothing I can do will ever make me taller...

So why label people whose differences result in typically lower paid jobs as deficient as if it were their fault? Or treat them worse? Or pay them less? Or spuriously label them as the reason not everyone bliindly believes in capitalism?

If I were more like you I would simply have berated you for your reasoning 'deficiences'.

/V\acpower
Jun 25, 2012, 02:32 AM
Selling a Macbook doesn't require any special training or education that takes years to learn and master. The normal workers (non-geniuses) are earning $12-14/hour. I don't see anything horrible about it.

That's not a good way to see it.

If I pay you 12$ an hour for something that bring me 100$ an hour of profits, would you consider that the 88$ I make from your work is "fair" considered that "hey, you don't need that much qualification to do it".

markcres
Jun 25, 2012, 02:33 AM
Greed is the root of all evil !!

America, take note.

lannisters4life
Jun 25, 2012, 02:40 AM
A few of Sydney's geniuses are legit, I'd give them an enormous pay increase. But the retail employees? I've watched them in stores around the world, Covent Garden store, Louvre store, Sydney store... they are like annoying flies. It's a ratio of 1:15 of nice, friendly, knowledgable to hyper-arrogant "I work for Apple" douches.

Ljohnson72
Jun 25, 2012, 02:41 AM
Yeah, that's pretty bad.

My sarcasm detector seems to be broken?

faroZ06
Jun 25, 2012, 02:49 AM
ROFLMAO, you must still live at home with your mom. That statement does not even show your understanding of the economy we live in or how its going to get ever better for people like me and bad for people like them. :D

Then what do you think they are paid according to if they are not at minimum wage? All I stated was a law of wages in capitalism. It doesn't take that much to be a guy who just tells people where stuff is at the Apple Store. The people in the Genius Bar have more valuable skill sets.

----------

Actually Government workers should be paid really low salaries. For what is accomplished, if it was a private sector business, the government would be a horrible company and would be broke 15 trillion times over.

Judging by my last experience at the DMV, they're probably already paid miserably low salaries. Nobody there is in a good mood.

macchiato2009
Jun 25, 2012, 02:49 AM
i believe the 25% increase is only for employees with minimum wages and would not concern "other" retail employees such as creatives, geniuses and business

Lennholm
Jun 25, 2012, 02:50 AM
An employee's salary isn't determined by what income they produce for the company but rather how important they individually are for the company, i.e. how easy it is to replace them. Since retail is a fairly low qualified job and there's an abundance of unemployed people looking for work, the employer doesn't need to give high salaries to get the positions filled easily. If the employee doesn't like it, he's free to go, other people are standing in line to take his place.
It's an employers paradise.

---------------------------------------

That's not a good way to see it.

If I pay you 12$ an hour for something that bring me 100$ an hour of profits, would you consider that the 88$ I make from your work is "fair" considered that "hey, you don't need that much qualification to do it".

Are you saying that $100 profit is all because of the $12 salesman? Product research, development, manufacturing etc. none of that contributed to the $100 profit?

faroZ06
Jun 25, 2012, 02:53 AM
Greed is the root of all evil !!

America, take note.

I don't know if Darth Vader was really greedy. I mean, it just looks like the rebels were attacking the Empire for no reason.

----------

An employee's salary isn't determined by what income they produce for the company but rather how important they individually are for the company, i.e. how easy it is to replace them. Since retail is a fairly low qualified job and there's an abundance of unemployed people looking for work, the employer doesn't need to give high salaries to get the positions filled easily. If the employee doesn't like it, he's free to go, other people are standing in line to take his place.
It's an employers paradise.

Tell that to kiljoy616.

faroZ06
Jun 25, 2012, 03:04 AM
A few of Sydney's geniuses are legit, I'd give them an enormous pay increase. But the retail employees? I've watched them in stores around the world, Covent Garden store, Louvre store, Sydney store... they are like annoying flies. It's a ratio of 1:15 of nice, friendly, knowledgable to hyper-arrogant "I work for Apple" ****s.

My dad asked someone there if they sold UPS devices, and he told him that they can ship using UPS (United Postal Service). He said no, he wants a UPS battery. The employee said that iPod charging cables are in the iPod section. My dad said no, he wants an uninterrupted power supply. The employee asked his colleagues if they had any optical power supplies only to find that they don't. :rolleyes:

But a lot of the guys at our local Apple Store are actually knowledgeable.

----------


Are you saying that $100 profit is all because of the $12 salesman? Product research, development, manufacturing etc. none of that contributed to the $100 profit?

It's like car factory workers complaining that they don't get any of the cars that they made.

----------

They can feel free to quit their job and let me take their place. I'd gladly work there while in college. Big discounts on Apple hardware and decent pay, what more is there to ask for?

Same here.

----------

When a company is as successful as Apple is, they draw a lot of attention. It's not unusual for them to be scrutinized. Apple loves the headlines anyway. The more attention the better. It's what makes the brand a very recognized name.

Yep, like how Greenpeace (want to choose a more overused name combo?) criticized Apple because they have cloud services and use electricity. They're not even a relatively big cloud company, but they're a big company in general.

----------

How about lowering prices, that'll boom sales!

I think they've already chosen the optimum price based on some kind of P(x) equation.

----------

I don't understand why people are so upset about higher wages. Yeah it is retail, but these people do more than just ringing up high ticket items. Often they are providing solutions to you and your idiotic family members that cannot figure anything out or refuse to use google. These people are the reason customers go to apple stores and not walmart, target or best buy. I don't see anything wrong with looking for ways to retain or attract good employees.

Can't the employees look stuff up on Google too? Actually, they do. My brother tried going on the support chat and asking about his broken Macintosh SE/30.

----------

I used to work at the Apple store in KOP, PA making $10/hr. The people who ran the kiosks in the middle selling Pillow Pals and knockoff sunglasses got $15/hr. Many other retailers got paid more.

You can't have a family and afford Apple products for $10/hr.

These jobs are for teenagers or young people. You should aim for a better career than Apple Store retail (not talking to you personally).

mocciat
Jun 25, 2012, 03:12 AM
I hired all female staff based on the theory that they sell better...They did, and my store was consistently top of the sales tables.

So your admitting to sexual discrimination. What a turd.

adildacoolset
Jun 25, 2012, 03:21 AM
They are selling electronics. They are selling electronics. They are selling electronics.

In case you missed it they are selling electronics. It's not strenuous physical labor. They are not 1000's of feet above or below ground. They are not working in hazardous conditions, with heavy machinery or around any number of things that could kill or injure them. They are not even doing skilled delicate tedious work that requires years of training. They are selling electronics.

The unfortunate thing is that people who actually work with dangerous machinery throughout the world get paid less than these people. Please, I'm not criticizing foxconn, but the industrial principle throughout the world.

Fraaaa
Jun 25, 2012, 03:29 AM
That's not a good way to see it.

If I pay you 12$ an hour for something that bring me 100$ an hour of profits, would you consider that the 88$ I make from your work is "fair" considered that "hey, you don't need that much qualification to do it".

I don't understand. Should a business make any profit?

If retailer get that money, what waiters should get?

Macist
Jun 25, 2012, 03:31 AM
Retail is a terribly industry in which to work. The low pay. The centralised control which means even 'managers' simply plug a into b.

It's funny how people have such unrealistic expectations as customers...

'Ooooooh, I went to Best Buy and the staff didn't know anything about the products...'

Do you think they get properly trained or something?

Konrad
Jun 25, 2012, 03:38 AM
If the Apple Store don't like their salaries, they are more than welcome to go work somewhere else.

Capitalism wins here.

Where? If the little kids in Asia don't like to extract metals from electronics on a pan in the tent and the bowl of soup they get, they are more than welcome to go work somewhere else.

Does anyone win? Is it always about winning? Are you a winner, or are you a loser?

----------

So your admitting to sexual discrimination. What a turd.

Oh well, in reality we all discriminate when purchasing electronics and other typical to women labor products. It is not discrimination, it is the proper application of gender to a given task. As nice as it sounds in the western propaganda of equality and the political blabber... we all know that women and men alike are not really the same.

Smallville
Jun 25, 2012, 03:40 AM
Forget the media, forget the politics, forget everything outside the walls of the company, and here's what I believe: I fail to see what's so awful about a company leader saying, "hey, folks, you're going good work. We're all very happy here at HQ. Here's a token of our appreciation."

If you can boost employee morale and afford to do right by your people, and if they deserve it, then what's the problem with giving folks a raise? This goes a lot deeper than just the retail employees.

Executives need to realize that if you treat people well, pay a fair market wage, and show just a shred of respect, they'd have a lot more loyal, enthusiastic employees. That's good for business.

From a consumer viewpoint, I don't want to shop at a place where the help looks miserable and takes it out on me. I want to shop where the folks look like they want to be there, like they enjoy helping a customer.

turtlez
Jun 25, 2012, 03:51 AM
I don't understand this article. The NYT wants me to hate on Apple for paying the most vs other companies? It seems there is never a win situation with what Apple does when it comes to the NYT. Maybe Apple should ask NYT what they would do? Surely dropping wages wouldn't be the answer right?

Smallville
Jun 25, 2012, 03:52 AM
I agree with the angry sentiment expressed throughout the thread. These unskilled workers don't realize how lucky they are to be part a movement so much bigger than they are and so much more important than their individual lives. I feel like if we could round up all the true believers on MacRumors, we could petition Apple to allow us to volunteer in their retail stores, which might allow Apple to at the least stop this wage inflation. Even if we already have full time jobs, we could pitch in on the weekends when Apple Stores are the busiest. Some of us think that our duties as evangelists ended when Apple became the world's most valuable company, but really we are now in a position where we are at the top and we have to fight to stay here. Our mission may no longer be to convert people since the "rest of us" is now all of us, but it takes on different forms such as disputing the myths about labor issues in China and ensuring Apple's American labor doesn't forget what and whom it's working for.

A movement bigger than their own lives? Apple makes fine products, but it's a dressed-up electronics company. They're not curing cancer, diabetes, or any of a thousand other things.

Some of you "true believers" are certifiable. Apple is a company, like any other. Steve Jobs was a man, like any other. True, he had a knack for good computers and, ultimately, shiny toys we really don't need for survival. He wasn't a messiah. Apple wasn't worth a damn nearly 20 years ago. Two decades from now, they may not exist. Nothing lasts forever. Such devotion to an electronics company, and the drivel you're spewing, is frightening.

But, if you want to work for a multi-billion dollar corporation for free as a means to live your life ... well, brother, go right ahead. You might be awfully lonely. "Evangealists"? ****, dude, you need help.

turtlez
Jun 25, 2012, 03:52 AM
So your admitting to sexual discrimination. What a turd.

Better than what NYT would do I am sure

MH01
Jun 25, 2012, 03:53 AM
If the Apple Store don't like their salaries, they are more than welcome to go work somewhere else.

Capitalism wins here.

But you still want your super friendly, dedicated Apple Fans boys to serve you right?

Just for their dedication they should get paid more! IF it was not for these staff, Apple would not have such a high customer satisfaction rating!

Gamoe
Jun 25, 2012, 03:56 AM
What's new? Some of us do believe that all of the constituent parts of a whole economic organisms should be entitled to a proportionate share of the wealth. How do you think McDonald's posts enormous profits every quarter? Are employees all getting their fair share. I'm daring to be wild here and say- "No".

HOWEVER, what mechanism do we use to insure fairness, and is it ethical to impose appropriate distribution of wealth in a company, and who decides what is proportionate? In the end, I think we will find that the best mechanisms for change in distribution may be social pressure- which in this case, is what is being done, and that's all right- not government mandates.

Frankly, I find it all a little funny. Why pick on Apple? So Apple's above-average, but that's not good enough for these noble people, dammit! Are they paying their magazine people enough? Quite comical.

That said, I do wish that most of the money went to everyone in the company, after expenses and R&D, not to make wealthy people wealthier.

Konrad
Jun 25, 2012, 04:04 AM
Forget the media, forget the politics, forget everything outside the walls of the company, and here's what I believe: I fail to see what's so awful about a company leader saying, "hey, folks, you're going good work. We're all very happy here at HQ. Here's a token of our appreciation."

If you can boost employee morale and afford to do right by your people, and if they deserve it, then what's the problem with giving folks a raise?

Because I sense, as I don't know for obvious reasons, is when you have absurdly large assets, perhaps something happens where one starts mentally f+++++g with the world rather than enjoying it and perhaps improving it for others, it is a certain phenomena of not exactly greed, but a sense change and deviation, components which then naturally prohibit a reasonable perception of the state of reality, where of course the item you call "appreciation" "morale" is now organically non existent. There are similarities with the rise of the NSDAP in the 30's. The modern world similarities of complacent millions of uniformed workers and the next ones already lined up to keep the machine in constant motion are nothing new, nor good. Historically, the participants were never well compensated, but they were dedicated for one reason or another. Back in Munich, they were also modern fanboys marching with a smile and a great vision for the utopian life as one imagined. I personally think it is all wrong and it ends more or less abruptly one day, so it is important to value what has value. A good wine, and good people at a good place and good music and kindness to all.

MisterK
Jun 25, 2012, 04:11 AM
I'll admit to being surprised that pay was as low as it is (in Canada, the minimum is $10.25, I think).... But this isn't really how supply and demand works. A lot of people want an unskilled job and love talking about Apple products. It's that simple. Apple shouldn't be held up to higher standards because they are more successful. If you want to raise minimum wage across the US, that's one thing, but you don't penalize a company for getting most of their business right.

urbanlung
Jun 25, 2012, 04:24 AM
Personaly I think it is good that Apple Store employees do not get a commision on sales. Not because I begrudge them the money, I would be more than happy for them to get more, but because it would change their relationship with the customer. Apples decision to not pay commision was a very enlightened one in that by removing all pressure to sell, the store becomes a relaxing place to visit and work. The staff are not acting as sale people they are acting as guides. An Apple Store is almost like a creche where the customers like children are given the freedom to play and explore. The staff intervine and help only when asked or when they feel it apropriate. Give the staff more money, sure, give them profit share from Apple overall, possibly, but store profit share or commision, definitley not, it would poison the well.

SlickShoes
Jun 25, 2012, 04:26 AM
These people work in ******** retail? What do they think they are worth? As a stockholder I see where this is going and I am not ******** pleased. I love how defeatism spreads in America. Those retail employees are able to sell so much per square foot because of what the big boys do. Apple retail would have done just as well if you had monkeys instead of human employes. They are retail workers, any one on Earth can do their job. Hence the low pay. It's appropriate for what they do. If we start going this direction we are all f*cked. Because I want more compensation now too?

It's just depressing reading things like this, these people aren't lesser beings because they work in retail. Comparing retail employees to monkeys is ridiculous.

Life is not about only $$$ and some people get to realise this sooner rather than later, I'd rather spend my life doing the things I enjoy with the people I love and if all I needed to work to get that was a retail job then I would do that.

Seoras
Jun 25, 2012, 04:31 AM
I'll start by saying I'm not an Apple share holder.

Giving Apple retail store employees an abnormally higher than industry salary would ruin the stores.

Why?

The job then becomes less about the passion and loyalty to the brand. "...relying on its employees' devotion to the company and a strong fan base..."

Experiential marketing (read Pine & Gilmore's paper on "Welcome to the Experience Economy") requires the employees to share and be part of the experience. They need to believe in what they are selling and love selling it not because they are well paid but because they love what they do.

If you make the job salary focused you attract the wrong type of candidates.
Look at other professions that attract too many of the wrong personality types because of what the job offers. (Police/power, Doctors/prestige, etc)

Apple retail stores would become political hell holes and miniature power bases to be used and abused.

All this focus on the money Apple has made is going to ruin the company and the brand.

allmIne
Jun 25, 2012, 04:33 AM
This thread is funny. Replace 'Apple' with 'Samsung' and I'd imagine fewer would be defending the salaries.

For what it's worth, if I hear 'as a shareholder' one more time, I'll ****ing scream. I don't care that you hold three shares in the bloody company.

fitshaced
Jun 25, 2012, 04:36 AM
It's just depressing reading things like this, these people aren't lesser beings because they work in retail. Comparing retail employees to monkeys is ridiculous.

Life is not about only $$$ and some people get to realise this sooner rather than later, I'd rather spend my life doing the things I enjoy with the people I love and if all I needed to work to get that was a retail job then I would do that.

And thats how it should be. So why the fuss from NYT on what they get paid if they are ok with it?

Should any of them declare that they are responsible for $500,000 in sales every year, they have allowed NYT to acheive their goal. If they were responsible for that amount in sales every year, that would make the designers, support staff, testers, management, marketing teams, HR etc all be volunteers. Imagine that!

ggmissmolly
Jun 25, 2012, 04:36 AM
Employers pay what is required to get the employees they want. Doesn't sound like Apple is having any problem getting employees or retaining them. This whole thing is stupid.

gnasher729
Jun 25, 2012, 04:37 AM
That's not a good way to see it.

If I pay you 12$ an hour for something that bring me 100$ an hour of profits, would you consider that the 88$ I make from your work is "fair" considered that "hey, you don't need that much qualification to do it".

That depends. Do you make $100 profit from the $12 work? For example, if I go to a hairdresser, I assume almost all the money I pay is for the work done, so if the salon makes $100 profit and pays the hairdresser $12, that would be quite bad. It would also be a good business opportunity for the hairdresser.

If Apple makes $100 profit from sales that the sales person was paid $12 for, there are lots and lots of people involved in this and creating the profit, not just that sales person. Could all those hairdressers quit their job and open their own store? Yes, they could; after hiring one person who handles taxes, payroll and so on. Could all those sales people quit their job and open their own computer or mobile phone company? No, they couldn't. Because most of the cost and most of the profit goes to all the processes that put the product into the store.

iMikeT
Jun 25, 2012, 04:39 AM
Again if someones career choice is retail salesperson at the local mall, then they don't have much room to complain. It is NOT a career. $12/hr is a living wage. The problem is most people don't live within their means. I've worked minimum wage jobs and listen to co workers complain about how broke they were. Yet I didn't live paycheck to paycheck. They choose to spend money on stuff they didn't need.

It's like some of our state workers that complain about the furlough days. If you're live so close to means that you can't take a 4 days a year hit then you need to reassess where some of your bills.


I'm not going to follow you in the conservative ideology of "personal responsibility" when it comes to socioeconomic conditions.

In the real world, answers are far more complicated than simply saying "most people don't live within their means". This is the built-in flaw of the personal responsibility ideology, it is narrow-minded thinking that generalizes and over simplifies much larger issues in society instead of actually working through the issues.

jackal123uk
Jun 25, 2012, 04:44 AM
Did I miss something? Since when did the term "compensation" apply to any discussion of payment for services in contractual employment? Perhaps this is a US thing? Most people in the UK would consider compensation to equate to some kind of damages - this just clouds the matter.

That aside, I think the current wages afforded to retail store employees are generous enough, considering what the actually do - every time I've been to an apple store I've known exactly what I wanted, went straight to an assistant, bought it and left - I imagine this is the same for a lot of people. Not once has an assistant tried to up-sell anything (very refreshing!).

What I'm trying to say (and it's probably been said before) is Apple products sell themselves, I'd even go so far as to say that you could change the Apple stores to an automat style full of vending machines and it would have little impact on sales. To say the assistants deserve higher wages when their main function is attendance is ridiculous.

Furthermore, set points for wages are based on principles of supply and demand, I think it's safe to say that demand for these jobs greatly outstrips the supply. With that in mind, if Apple did want to exploit it's retail employees it could very easily lower the wage (perhaps drastically) and still find many people happily queuing up for jobs.

Rafterman
Jun 25, 2012, 04:57 AM
Well said but don't expect much pity from the lot here. Wrong place for human compassion. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, that can be said of America as a whole too, where corporations have become the heroes and the American worker, the villain. When a CEO does anything they can to make money, they are called good, hard working business people. When a company does anything it can to make money, they are called "effective" and "profitable" and politicians fall over themselves to cut their taxes and pass favorable legislation. But when a worker does their best to earn as much as they can, to get as much of the pie as they can, they are called greedy, see their wages and benefits cut and are asked to "share the burden".

Don't get me wrong, companies and large corporations are important, they are the reason our society and technology has advanced as quickly as it has, due to their ability at research, development and large scale production. But when corporations get all the pie, and workers are only allowed the crumbs, that system is not sustainable over the long hall of centuries. Something is going to eventually give if the worker is not treated with more respect.

slughead
Jun 25, 2012, 05:03 AM
Please. At a time with most retail destinations are closing and cutting back on employees, Apple continues to expand and provide great wages for a pretty sweet retail job (compared to other places).

It's not Apple's job to provide charity to employees. They provide great products at great prices and people line up around the block to work at their locations for a variety of reasons, including pay.

Just because the company has money doesn't mean it owes it to its employees. If anything it owes it to the shareholders, but the reality is it can do what it wants and WE the PEOPLE, being shareholders and/or employees can decide FREELY whether we want to interact with this company. Currently, they provide a great job and a great product and we should be happy there's a company doing that, as I'd rather have 1 company being fantastically competitive than 100 companies bleeding their owners dry to provide fat checks to employees while soaring off a cliff int bankruptcy. You don't like it? Work somewhere else. If your labor is really worth the money, eventually you'll find a place that will pay for it.

Geekbabe
Jun 25, 2012, 05:07 AM
They are selling electronics. They are selling electronics. They are selling electronics.

In case you missed it they are selling electronics. It's not strenuous physical labor. They are not 1000's of feet above or below ground. They are not working in hazardous conditions, with heavy machinery or around any number of things that could kill or injure them. They are not even doing skilled delicate tedious work that requires years of training. They are selling electronics.

They are dealing with that dangerous group of people known as "end users" LOL, I'm not sure there's enough money in the world to adequately compensate for that working condition :D

Seriously, the average salary of 25k before taxes is barely enough to pay rent & buy ramen noodles here in Boston.

Abazigal
Jun 25, 2012, 05:11 AM
Forget the media, forget the politics, forget everything outside the walls of the company, and here's what I believe: I fail to see what's so awful about a company leader saying, "hey, folks, you're going good work. We're all very happy here at HQ. Here's a token of our appreciation."

If you can boost employee morale and afford to do right by your people, and if they deserve it, then what's the problem with giving folks a raise? This goes a lot deeper than just the retail employees.

Executives need to realize that if you treat people well, pay a fair market wage, and show just a shred of respect, they'd have a lot more loyal, enthusiastic employees. That's good for business.

From a consumer viewpoint, I don't want to shop at a place where the help looks miserable and takes it out on me. I want to shop where the folks look like they want to be there, like they enjoy helping a customer.

The issue I have is this.

Just to check, just what is considered a "fair living wage" in US? Any consensus? Who decides what is fair?

Yes, I agree that people should be able to earn a fair living wage in whatever they do. However, this doesn't mean that a company should just pay them that if their output is deemed to be far less than that. That isn't renumeration, it's charity.

Next, how much of a successful sales at an apple store should be attributed to the staff? Has anyone tried to quantify this? For all we know, the buyer already has a very clear idea of what computer he wants, and the staff there really only needs to collect the money. For example, if I am browsing in a shop, the last thing I want are assistants hovering around me like flies. And when I do commit to a purchase, it will be after I have done my own research and am 100% certain that is what I want (at least for big ticket items like Apple products). Where's the value-add by the Apple retail staff?

The only thing is I can think of is once every year when the ipad is announced, they occasionally have to deal with scalpers returning huge quantities of unsold ipads. Man, no amount of pay can assuage that frustration.

People want higher wages. Are they willing to take on added responsibilities? Or do they expect to just sit there and get paid more for the same amount of work done simply because someone feels they ought to be entitled to more?

IMO, what Apple can do is to train their staff further. Why not let everyone be geniuses? Or empower them to do extra stuff or something. Have a clear path of progression so retail at Apple isn't seen as just another dead-end job. Then as they slowly work their way up and take on more responsibilities, then a higher pay can be justified. :)

Chupa Chupa
Jun 25, 2012, 05:14 AM
Hah! NYT is such a knee-jerk, thoughtless, clown paper now. It's senior writers must think all those entry level NYT staff reporters are making a killing working there, unlike their Apple Store brethren. They probably think all those beat reporting, Ramen eating, career climbing reporters are really happy writing obits and reporting on fires, and in no way hoping the prestige of writing for NYT leads to more lucrative and prominent jobs in the reporting field.

Geekbabe
Jun 25, 2012, 05:14 AM
I agree with the angry sentiment expressed throughout the thread. These unskilled workers don't realize how lucky they are to be part a movement so much bigger than they are and so much more important than their individual lives. I feel like if we could round up all the true believers on MacRumors, we could petition Apple to allow us to volunteer in their retail stores, which might allow Apple to at the least stop this wage inflation. Even if we already have full time jobs, we could pitch in on the weekends when Apple Stores are the busiest. Some of us think that our duties as evangelists ended when Apple became the world's most valuable company, but really we are now in a position where we are at the top and we have to fight to stay here. Our mission may no longer be to convert people since the "rest of us" is now all of us, but it takes on different forms such as disputing the myths about labor issues in China and ensuring Apple's American labor doesn't forget what and whom it's working for.

Working for Apple for free on the weekends after we've put in our hours at our regular jobs? Hmmmm... You go first :p

Btw, Judging from what I've seen & read about the application process for Apple, it would appear that they select students from good colleges & older workers with extensive resumes in computer/ tech or customer service related fields. These are not uneducated, unskilled people being hired.

ikir
Jun 25, 2012, 05:19 AM
I have friends that works in Apple Stores and they are paid good, have a good organization behind, and everything is fine! Indeed 1 of them was a co-worker of mine and he his paid a lot more than me and works in good condition instead of me!! Today the most important thing is to criticize Apple because everything Apple is news. Work in an Apple Store is hard but a very good work, paid well and if you believe in what you do is great. With today crisis, having a work at Apple is gold, i hope to can work there too in the next years when an Apple Store will pop up in my city (i choosed not to move like my workmate 3 years ago, and probably i made an error).

Rogifan
Jun 25, 2012, 05:37 AM
Came in expecting the blind fanboys to side against the employees, and I didn't leave disappointed. Absolutely pathetic.

Common sense and Econ 101 has nothing nothing to do with being a fanboy. :rolleyes:

thepowerofnone
Jun 25, 2012, 05:48 AM
Is it just me or has the NYT slightly missed the point here? People go to Apple stores to buy Apple products because the products are so good and there is a (valid) conception amongst people that an Apple store is more likely to have stock and knowledge specific to Apple products than their third party resellers. It would be a pretty poor showing by Apple if Walmart had more Apple related expertise than they did.

Yes the employees are, on the whole, fairly knowledgable but they are certainly not geniuses; they are simply well trained and drilled by Apple. How does the fact that the company they work for makes such popular products require them to be any better at their job than the next retail employee next door? Let's be honest - demand for iPhones is so high that they can't find them harder to sell than the guy working the Motorola phones in a Walmart... If that guy manages to sell a phone he has made a real achievement and is a skilled salesman.

EatingMyOwnHead
Jun 25, 2012, 06:01 AM
The NY times needs to back off a bit. Apple is a fun company to work with. They treat their employees very well. The health plan is crazy awesome as are the discounts. If you don't like your pay, find another job! Work at Sears where you get minimum wage and are treated like garbage.

leon44
Jun 25, 2012, 06:07 AM
Why we calling it 'compensation' all of a sudden, we are just talking about pay or wages?
Compensation makes me think of a monetary apology, it's just confusing when people use bigger words for no reason

----------

Oh and also from everyone I know that works there, it's a really fun job that they're lucky to have got, I've never heard anybody complain that they don't get paid enough. I'd work there for half of what they get!

quietstormSD
Jun 25, 2012, 06:18 AM
I'm not so much of being a downer on there salary. I do believe that most people that buy something at an Apple store, are already sold on what they want to buy and the retail employee is just ironing out the final details. Especially for Apple products. (Accessories, I believe the retail employee definitely helps push the process more).

With that being said, I would hope that Apple has programs that provides some sort of growth for that employee. Yeah most of them would be in and out in 3 years, but why not set up programs that may push them towards the tech or engineering fields.

urbanlung
Jun 25, 2012, 06:19 AM
I agree with the angry sentiment expressed throughout the thread. These unskilled workers don't realize how lucky they are to be part a movement so much bigger than they are and so much more important than their individual lives. I feel like if we could round up all the true believers on MacRumors, we could petition Apple to allow us to volunteer in their retail stores, which might allow Apple to at the least stop this wage inflation. Even if we already have full time jobs, we could pitch in on the weekends when Apple Stores are the busiest. Some of us think that our duties as evangelists ended when Apple became the world's most valuable company, but really we are now in a position where we are at the top and we have to fight to stay here. Our mission may no longer be to convert people since the "rest of us" is now all of us, but it takes on different forms such as disputing the myths about labor issues in China and ensuring Apple's American labor doesn't forget what and whom it's working for.

I agree, I've actualy been to my local store to offer my support for the company and went as far as to offer to pay apple to work there. Like most right thinking people I understand that it is a privilage to work for Apple, not a right.

Chupa Chupa
Jun 25, 2012, 06:21 AM
Why we calling it 'compensation' all of a sudden, we are just talking about pay or wages?
Compensation makes me think of a monetary apology, it's just confusing when people use bigger words for no reason[COLOR="#808080"]


I suppose it's just one of those U.S./British english quirks, the same way Britons call a subway, "the tube," or an elevator, "a lift." In the U.S. "compensation" is an accepted word for wages/salary + benefits. There is also legal compensation, but, of course, as english speakers, we know there are many words in the english language that can have different meanings depending on context.

katanna
Jun 25, 2012, 06:21 AM
Headline should read "Once Again Media Holds Apple To A Higher Standard". *sigh*

Matthew

Takeo
Jun 25, 2012, 06:26 AM
It's just depressing reading things like this, these people aren't lesser beings because they work in retail. Comparing retail employees to monkeys is ridiculous.

Life is not about only $$$ and some people get to realise this sooner rather than later, I'd rather spend my life doing the things I enjoy with the people I love and if all I needed to work to get that was a retail job then I would do that.

He never said they were lesser beings. You're putting words in his mouth. He said that anyone in the world can do their job. Which is true. That's how things work. The more you have to offer (skills, training, experience, education, etc.) the more people are willing to pay you and the more you can demand. Pretty simple. And there is nothing wrong with that. And there is nothing wrong with working retail. But you get paid in this world based on what you have to offer.

And who says you can't enjoy life doing things you love with people you love and still make tons of money. The two are not mutually exclusive. I LOVE what I do for a living and I make extremely good money and love my life and live it to the fullest. My goal was never money though, that's just a side benefit from ending up loving something that is in high demand.

mac-er
Jun 25, 2012, 06:35 AM
Yes, the American "compassion" so frequently manifested, also here, is one of the reasons people in Europe would rarely consider offers coming from the US. America has been miss advertised as a melting pot, as a land of opportunity, a free democracy among many other sugar pop propaganda campaigns enthusiastically repeated by the fooled populace where most will never see a Greek island, or Kenya outside of the ever glorified American mall lifestyle.

It's the trendy disposable gadget stupid, they don't change the world, as advertised. Effectively in the race for the newest, and, as told coolest gadgets, Americans furthered categorizing one another and they forgot that all are people while yapping about capitalism, democracy, self penile enlargement, and the eagle on their belt buckle. Except in sappy advertising campaigns. Here all are equal, happy and they will see the world. (in small print: but only virtually on our product)

Oh, please stop with the anti-Americanism. If Apple was in Europe, it would be bankrupt because of the taxes and regulations imposed on it. Europe's entitlement economic policies are about to cause its entire currency to collapse. How is that working out for you?

How about we send another few hundred thousand of our soldiers over there to die for a 3rd time to save your continent from its self-destruction? How about we send billions of dollars over there to rebuild your continent again after you destroy it?

You know nothing absolutely nothing about the United States or the compassion of her people, so shut it. If you are so anti-American, stop buying products made by American companies.

flipperfeet
Jun 25, 2012, 06:37 AM
And I wonder where NYT salaries are for administrative staff or for their ad sales team. Can they claim they are top-of category and they share equally in the success like Ochs-Sulzberger family?

Saladinos
Jun 25, 2012, 06:42 AM
If the Apple Store don't like their salaries, they are more than welcome to go work somewhere else.

Capitalism wins here.

This is the part of capitalism that keeps everyone not at the top out of reach of those at the top.

A company should not pay their employees as little as they'll accept; they should pay them as much as they can afford to. Companies should look at better payed staff as a badge of honour.

jamesmorgan
Jun 25, 2012, 06:46 AM
Twenty-two-year-olds also tend to be more tolerant of the Apple Storeís noise and bustle, yet these days some former employees describe a work environment that was too hectic and stressful, thanks in large part to the runaway popularity of the iPhone and iPad.

unlinked
Jun 25, 2012, 06:47 AM
This is the part of capitalism that keeps everyone not at the top out of reach of those at the top.

A company should not pay their employees as little as they'll accept; they should pay them as much as they can afford to. Companies should look at better payed staff as a badge of honour.

It is a badge of honnor. That is why Tim gets paid as much as all the US retail staff put together.

SoldOnApple
Jun 25, 2012, 06:47 AM
If they keep raising the salaries, then soon the job will attract only a certain kind of person. Same thing happened in makeup sections of department stores. They started with normal people, but because makeup has such a huge profit margin, they ended up raising the pay of the workers there. Soon, those roles were only taken by skinny white women who inexplicably wore lab coats and cm thick makeup themselves and always looked grumpy.

Well, probably.

flipperfeet
Jun 25, 2012, 06:48 AM
Why we calling it 'compensation' all of a sudden, we are just talking about pay or wages?
Compensation makes me think of a monetary apology, it's just confusing when people use bigger words for no reason


It is called compensation because it is made of up more than just wages, there are healthcare benefits, employee discounts, a retirement program and other elements. You need to expand your understanding of the word and perhaps discover the pleasure of developing and using a larger vocabulary. :)

moonzombie
Jun 25, 2012, 06:53 AM
Next, how much of a successful sales at an apple store should be attributed to the staff? Has anyone tried to quantify this? For all we know, the buyer already has a very clear idea of what computer he wants, and the staff there really only needs to collect the money. For example, if I am browsing in a shop, the last thing I want are assistants hovering around me like flies. And when I do commit to a purchase, it will be after I have done my own research and am 100% certain that is what I want (at least for big ticket items like Apple products). Where's the value-add by the Apple retail staff?


I can say as a former Apple Retail employee, A LOT. Sure there were a lot of customers that sort of knew exactly what they wanted walking in, but those are the same kind of customers who are more inclined to order online. The value-add for those customers is NOT hovering around you, helping get your product quickly and easily, sometimes helping confirm your research/decision (adding to buyer confidence), answering lingering questions or giving first-hand recommendations on things like accessories. And after all that, you'll then recommend going to the Apple Store to your grandma over ordering online or Best Buy.

I don't think most people posting in this forum would understand, but there were tons and tons of people coming into the stores that are intimidated by technology. The warm, friendly, helpful retail staff really helped make the difference, especially with Mac and iPad. Also, a lot of people buy iPhones in Apple Stores rather than carrier stores because Apple has a reputation of having friendlier staff and

Good face-to-face experience with staff also converts not just into immediate sales, but future sales as well. I couldn't count the number of times I had a customer come in ready to spend a ton of money on a top-of-the-line system, but after a brief discussion about their usage I ended up recommending a less expensive model (you don't need a $2500 computer to check facebook and organize your iPhoto). Customers tend to appreciate that honesty, and then not only return to that store for future purchases, but recommend it to friends.

Apple does indeed pay really well compared to other stores in the Mall, but those other stores are generally selling things like clothes, shoes, stationary, books. Selling computers definitely requires more technical knowledge, application knowledge, the ability to relate technical concepts to less tech-savvy people, and at Apple specifically requires refined customer service skills. And the stakes are much higher -- if someone decides to buy their jeans at a different retailer, your jeans store is out $50. If someone decides to buy their computer at the Microsoft Store (who have been actively poaching Apple Retail employees), Apple's out $1500+. It's better to compare to a car dealership or high-end jewelry store than just "retail" in general.

tnyox
Jun 25, 2012, 06:55 AM
This is exactly what is wrong with America & this ****** world. These people here commenting like typical "merkins" about "Capitalism" and supply & demand, blah, blah, etc. really makes me believe why the rest of the WORLD hates and make fun of this majority dumb ass nation.

I have a huge problem with peoples opinions on this subject brought out by this article. Look I know retail is retail I'm neither a hippy liberal or a dirtbag greedy republican but times are so tight now with this economy felt around the world that people can't make ends meet. Yes, they should be grateful for having a job but $10-$12/hr or whatever is a horrible wage whatever way you try to spin it. You don't need to make enough to "buy the product you sell" but you should be giving the opportunity to sustain yourself or provide for your family with your job nowadays. Capitalism fails it is the greedy excuse that was designed to justify ****ing over lower fortunate people.

Capitalism should not even be brought up with todays times so hard and Apple literally churning BILLIONS of dollars of profit, second to ExonMobile, there is a line that has been crossed as far as money gos and people are suffering since the wealthy hoard the money. This world will continue to suffer and people will keep thinking the world is filled with garbage human beings.

Others say they shouldn't complain since they are getting paid accordingly, and the job is "easy, monkeys can do it" is quite insulting, I have stopping in an Apple Store they are BUSY to say the least, that is a lot of mental stress for an individual to handle. Yes the products sell themselves but these people are here to help educate, answer questions, fix/troubleshoot all of Apple concerns and with the amount of idiotic/lazy americans out there the Apple specialists are a great help. No they do not build, design, assemble the product but you people forget without Apple Retail, Apple would NOT be where is it today, as some users said here it is the Apple engineers and designers that make the product so should be paid accordingly like the retail aspect doesn't matter, you are DEAD wrong, they probably do get paid accordingly at Apple corporate but Retail does NOT for where operations and revenue/profits are today.

I for one am happy for their raises and they should get more again in the future as business allows and keeps growing healthily. Bottom line everyone should be given the opportunity to provide for their families and afford the necessities of life, (not a MacBook Pro they sell at work) keep food on the table, roof over their heads with the "jobs" provided today but they're not and that has to change, or you people really haven't seen hard times with whats ahead. So I think Apple should step up and set an example for the rest of the corporations especially with the amount of money they are working with.

radiogoober
Jun 25, 2012, 06:59 AM
Wow, yet another anti-capitalism, anti-Apple diatribe from the NYT. What a surprise. Perhaps the government should mandate pay rates based on a company's success in the marketplace. Am I right comrades?

I actually agree 100% with you.

The article says Apple pays above-average for retail employees. Fine, leave it there.

I *HATE* when people complain about the pay of their job. THEY TOOK THE STUPID JOB! IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, QUIT. But don't bitch that you deserve MORE money.

And lets be honest, these stupid hipsters at the store are not bringing the money in. Apple brings the money in with their products. I don't buy a $1000 computer because some skinny dildo with a mohawk talked me into it. In fact, I buy almost everything online BECAUSE I dislike the stupid children working in the store.

They don't deserve extra pay. They aren't selling the brand. Apple sells the brand. Steve Jobs sold the brand. **** 'em. If they are unhappy, quit. Apple will be just fine.

ruvil
Jun 25, 2012, 06:59 AM
Seriously? Why do you guys think that the apple store staff doesn't deserve a pay raise?

Blah blah blah "just retail". What?! Just retail? What does that even mean? They still deserve the money. Do you want quality in your apple store with employees that are happy for real or do you want a store with unhappy people that does not give a **** about anything. (think something like DMV or whatever).

And why is "just retail" a reason to pay someone less money? Seriously... i don't get it. And this is not about being some kind of apple fanboy here, I'm speaking about all kinds of retail.

Some of you that complains just seem jealous or something and want to push them down because they are in your opinion at least, less worth.

leon44
Jun 25, 2012, 07:00 AM
It is called compensation because it is made of up more than just wages, there are healthcare benefits, employee discounts, a retirement program and other elements. You need to expand your understanding of the word and perhaps discover the pleasure of developing and using a larger vocabulary. :)

Ah but it is directly from acquiring a broader vocabulary that I despair when individuals feel compelled to express themselves with unnecessarily diabolical language. I do apologise, however that I wasn't aware that it was an American English term and not one that you would find used on this side of the Atlantic in this context. Dreadfully embarrassing for myself.

ranReloaded
Jun 25, 2012, 07:04 AM
When a company is as successful as Apple is, they draw a lot of attention. It's not unusual for them to be scrutinized. Apple loves the headlines anyway. The more attention the better. It's what makes the brand a very recognized name.

When a company is as successful as Apple is, they become a subject for link bait.

CiccioAtSea
Jun 25, 2012, 07:05 AM
As Tour Manager for one of the biggest cruise company all over the world I can say this:

my departement is producing an average revenue of 3 MILLION EUR/MONTH (yes, it is a lot of money, and I am talking only about "my" ship, fleetwide we have 17 ships...)

My team is composed by 8 sellers, it means that averagely they sell 375000 EUR in excursion PER MONTH :eek:

Do you have an idea about their salaries? they do not even reach 1000 EUR per month!!!
1000 EUR for working 11 hours/day, 7 days per week, for a period of 6/8 months!!! :eek:

The point is.... they are here because they like the job, they like travelling all around the world and everything, if they are here it's just their decision...

IMO same can be applied to any other job, if you like it ok, if not....just try to find something better...

anybody else agree with me?

Reason077
Jun 25, 2012, 07:06 AM
These rumours of pay rises are really almost unbelievable.

I appreciate that Apple is doing well, but 25%?! for RETAIL staff, who are already paid better than most of their peers at other retailers? It isn't like Apple Stores have a shortage of quality employees!

Steve would never have allowed this.

pixelss
Jun 25, 2012, 07:07 AM
This is exactly what is wrong with America & this ****** world. These people here commenting like typical "merkins" about "Capitalism" and supply & demand, blah, blah, etc. really makes me believe why the rest of the WORLD hates and make fun of this majority dumb ass nation.

I have a huge problem with peoples opinions on this subject brought out by this article. Look I know retail is retail I'm neither a hippy liberal or a dirtbag greedy republican but times are so tight now with this economy felt around the world that people can't make ends meet. Yes, they should be grateful for having a job but $10-$12/hr or whatever is a horrible wage whatever way you try to spin it. You don't need to make enough to "buy the product you sell" but you should be giving the opportunity to sustain yourself or provide for your family with your job nowadays. Capitalism fails it is the greedy excuse that was designed to justify ****ing over lower fortunate people.

Capitalism should not even be brought up with todays times so hard and Apple literally churning BILLIONS of dollars of profit, second to ExonMobile, there is a line that has been crossed as far as money gos and people are suffering since the wealthy hoard the money. This world will continue to suffer and people will keep thinking the world is filled with garbage human beings.

Others say they shouldn't complain since they are getting paid accordingly, and the job is "easy, monkeys can do it" is quite insulting, I have stopping in an Apple Store they are BUSY to say the least, that is a lot of mental stress for an individual to handle. Yes the products sell themselves but these people are here to help educate, answer questions, fix/troubleshoot all of Apple concerns and with the amount of idiotic/lazy americans out there the Apple specialists are a great help. No they do not build, design, assemble the product but you people forget without Apple Retail, Apple would NOT be where is it today, as some users said here it is the Apple engineers and designers that make the product so should be paid accordingly like the retail aspect doesn't matter, you are DEAD wrong, they probably do get paid accordingly at Apple corporate but Retail does NOT for where operations and revenue/profits are today.

I for one am happy for their raises and they should get more again in the future as business allows and keeps growing healthily. Bottom line everyone should be given the opportunity to provide for their families and afford the necessities of life, (not a MacBook Pro they sell at work) keep food on the table, roof over their heads with the "jobs" provided today but they're not and that has to change, or you people really haven't seen hard times with whats ahead. So I think Apple should step up and set an example for the rest of the corporations especially with the amount of money they are working with.

like we care............

flipperfeet
Jun 25, 2012, 07:08 AM
Ah but it is directly from acquiring a broader vocabulary that I despair when individuals feel compelled to express themselves with unnecessarily diabolical language. I do apologise, however that I wasn't aware that it was an American English term and not one that you would find used on this side of the Atlantic in this context. Dreadfully embarrassing for myself.

no apologies needed. :)

champ01
Jun 25, 2012, 07:11 AM
Last topic about this I told it was BS to not include employees on new products.

It got 62 negatives votes. Now how you like them apples. ;)

I guess most of you are comfortable being a slave.

scootaru
Jun 25, 2012, 07:11 AM
I'm shocked at some of these comments. Definitely not what I expected. Why does everybody want to keep the wealth at the top and in the hands of shareholders? I think some of these comments are biased.

flipperfeet
Jun 25, 2012, 07:11 AM
I actually agree 100% with you.

The article says Apple pays above-average for retail employees. Fine, leave it there.

I *HATE* when people complain about the pay of their job. THEY TOOK THE STUPID JOB! IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, QUIT. But don't bitch that you deserve MORE money.

And lets be honest, these stupid hipsters at the store are not bringing the money in. Apple brings the money in with their products. I don't buy a $1000 computer because some skinny dildo with a mohawk talked me into it. In fact, I buy almost everything online BECAUSE I dislike the stupid children working in the store.

They don't deserve extra pay. They aren't selling the brand. Apple sells the brand. Steve Jobs sold the brand. **** 'em. If they are unhappy, quit. Apple will be just fine.

The sales staff and their interaction with the public is a significant component of what the brand that is Apple. The brand is not just the device. But I agree the NYT is fishing here.

gnasher729
Jun 25, 2012, 07:15 AM
These rumours of pay rises are really almost unbelievable.

I appreciate that Apple is doing well, but 25%?! for RETAIL staff, who are already paid better than most of their peers at other retailers? It isn't like Apple Stores have a shortage of quality employees!

Steve would never have allowed this.

What the hell are you complaining about? Every year, lots of people start new in this job, with the lowest salary. After a year, their manager should know that some were unacceptably below average, below average, average, better than average, a lot better than average, and some will be just awesome. And Steve Jobs wouldn't allow a 25% raise for some employee who is just awesome?


Last topic about this I told it was BS to not include employees on new products. It got 62 negatives votes.

If you have a new product with limited availability, it is just common sense that you sell it first to anyone who pays full price, and employees with a company rebate come second. It is also common sense that if a product is so rare that some customers cannot buy it, you don't want any favoritism decide who gets it, so you don't want them to go to employees who can get ahead of the queue.

Bubba Satori
Jun 25, 2012, 07:26 AM
I actually agree 100% with you.

The article says Apple pays above-average for retail employees. Fine, leave it there.

I *HATE* when people complain about the pay of their job. THEY TOOK THE STUPID JOB! IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, QUIT. But don't bitch that you deserve MORE money.

And lets be honest, these stupid hipsters at the store are not bringing the money in. Apple brings the money in with their products. I don't buy a $1000 computer because some skinny dildo with a mohawk talked me into it. In fact, I buy almost everything online BECAUSE I dislike the stupid children working in the store.

They don't deserve extra pay. They aren't selling the brand. Apple sells the brand. Steve Jobs sold the brand. **** 'em. If they are unhappy, quit. Apple will be just fine.

Yes you do. Thanks for the demonstration.

Rafterman
Jun 25, 2012, 07:31 AM
I'm shocked at some of these comments. Definitely not what I expected. Why does everybody want to keep the wealth at the top and in the hands of shareholders? I think some of these comments are biased.


The group of people who sing the praises of "trickle down" are the same ones most appalled at the thought of Apple retail sales getting some of that "trickle down". Interesting.

jameskatt
Jun 25, 2012, 07:38 AM
Apple's pay rates are above average for the retail sector is all that they needed to say.

Apple's products SELL THEMSELVES.

----------

I guess most of you are comfortable being a slave.

Slaves can't leave, Apple employees can.

The only quote needed is:

Apple's pay rates are above average for the retail sector

Tinyluph
Jun 25, 2012, 07:41 AM
I'm working $9.60 an hour starting at a Wegmans and I can guarantee what I do is far more stressful/physically demanding than anything people in Apple stores do. I would love to be working at my local one.

Swordylove
Jun 25, 2012, 07:46 AM
Since Apple is making so much money, don't you think it's more right to ask Apple to cut down the prices, instead?

Raise demand for employees just because Apple makes so much money, and not because the current salary isn't enough, doesn't sound so right. If the employees feel stressful about their salary (which I doubt they do), they can quit at anytime and many others are more than willing to take their place.

Reason077
Jun 25, 2012, 07:47 AM
What the hell are you complaining about? Every year, lots of people start new in this job, with the lowest salary.

You're touching on what I'm complaining about right here. Working in an Apple Store is, obviously, a great first job for kids out of college. It provides great experience at a great company for a lot of people. These kids learn the ropes at a world class company that pretty much sets the standards for everybody else, then eventually move on and up to great long-term careers elsewhere.

The problem is that if Apple start pumping up retail wages to unreasonably high levels (i.e. much higher than the employees would be earning in other comparable retail jobs) then eventually the stores are going to end up being staffed with a lot of jaded jobsworths who hung on to those lucrative Apple store jobs for years and years instead of moving on with their careers. Why would you ever look elsewhere when it doesn't seem like there's any chance of the "real world" matching your Apple store wages? Service quality goes down and a little bit of the Apple store experience is lost - both for staff and customers.

The knock on effect of this is that all those opportunities for freshly graduated college kids dries up. It becomes much harder to get in to a lucrative position at an Apple store, so those kids end up working at a Best Buy (or worse) and don't get anything like the great experience they get at Apple.

sined13
Jun 25, 2012, 07:47 AM
I'm pretty sure that retail employees have very little to do with Apple's popularity, and its ability to market and sell its products.

Rocketman
Jun 25, 2012, 07:49 AM
Two of this nation's largest employers and retailers with high dollar profits are Wal-Mart and McDonald's. I think the comparison should be to a consumer goods company not a premium retailer of jewelry where there is a definite requirement for appearance and etiquette, such as Tiffiny's.

Apple has attitude specifications, and a t-shirt requirement, but as for the rest of the outfit and even the personal body art, the rest seems wide-open. It is a bit of a conundrum when you first see it.

Not this article, but serious ones in financial magazines and newspapers typically try to value all the wages and benefits, not wages alone. When you include the health benefits, the access to a 401k, the employee discounts, and the product credits for even relatively new employees (90 days IIRC), the all-in wage is quite a bit higher and the all-in cost of that employee to Apple would shock you considering what they also pay to various governments on behalf of the employee. Very little of the benefit costs come out of the paycheck. Mostly the 401k contribution.

Rocketman

NIKKG
Jun 25, 2012, 07:50 AM
We recently put a job opening up on Craigslist for a small retail store in NY for pretty much a stock boy / delivery boy position at 8 bucks an hour with no health benefits. We got over 200 applicants in 7 days.

Making 12 bucks an hour, plus full medical and 401K in a mall selling computers that essentially sell themselves is pretty sweet in my opinion.

That maybe true, but paying for 8 bucks just means you get alot of turnover and you have to constantly train the next guy. Also, shrinkage can be high when you get people that desperate. Personally, I'd rather pay them better so that I can have someone reliable instead of wasting alot of time for training.

charlituna
Jun 25, 2012, 07:56 AM
But the sales person needs to know the product far better than an apple employee needs to know an iPhone. It's far easier to lose a customer when trying to sell a car than when trying to sell a phone. There's often more time invested in each customer when selling a car than when picking up a phone, swiping a card and putting it in a bag.

Are you certain of these things. Absolutely positively certain that selling a phone is as simple as just scanning a couple of bar codes, taking some money and out they go.

I can tell you that it is not. I know this from the 4 iPhones that I have bought for my own use. And countless interactions I have seen when I've been in the stores for other things. It is just as difficult.

----------

Nothing. Except compassion, the desire to see society as a whole prosper rather than a few selfish individuals who got lucky, a sense of fairness maybe?

So like with the whole Foxconn issue, Apple is shamed public into 'fixing' this 'problem' while the other several thousand companies are ignored.

You have just as many folks working at places like Best Buy, Gap etc. How many of them are being paid 'decently', how many of them have medical insurance etc. I remember when I was interviewing for Barnes and Noble for a part time job and found out that not only wasn't there any kind of paid leave or health insurance for part times, IF you were lucky enough to go full time it would be six months later before you could get insurance. Ouch. Oh and their offer to me for pay to take that part time job --- 10 cents over minimum wage. I was supposed to be grateful that I was being offered $8.35. In LA. Good thing I had 4 housemates. Good thing too that that job only ended up lasting me 5 weeks before I got a much much better offer.

homeward
Jun 25, 2012, 08:02 AM
One graph in the Times article compared the sales in dollars per sq. ft. at Apple compared to Costco (a warehouse retailer). Apple of course sold much more per sq. ft., but Costco's employee's earned more per hour. What the Times didn't mention was employees per sq. ft. Everywhere you turn at Apple you can see a sales associate or a genius. Costco has about 2 employees per store - one to put your shopping cart onto the ramp going to the second floor, and one to pull your cart off when you're coming down. Plus 5 checkout people. That's about .000001 employees per sq. ft. Not a fair comparison.

NetCatman
Jun 25, 2012, 08:06 AM
I don't understand why people are so upset about higher wages. Yeah it is retail, but these people do more than just ringing up high ticket items. Often they are providing solutions to you and your idiotic family members that cannot figure anything out or refuse to use google. These people are the reason customers go to apple stores and not walmart, target or best buy. I don't see anything wrong with looking for ways to retain or attract good employees.

Amen! I've considered working for Apple or Best Buy, but I have a really hard time putting up with idiots. Kudos to those that can!

MaxGravy
Jun 25, 2012, 08:06 AM
So how much does the NYT pay THEIR employees? Is it possible they exploit kids by paying them a pittence to deliver the NYT? Hmmm?

martygras9
Jun 25, 2012, 08:06 AM
Back in 2003, I worked at The Virgin Megastore in Union Square while in college. Pay was $7 an hour. What was an even bigger kicker was that at my work study, I got paid $8 an hour.

After working there for a 4 months, they did give me a raise. 13 cents. I kid you not.

Crappy pay at retail stores is a fact of life. Get through it and you'll be a better person for it. I'm now the senior motion graphic designer at an advertising agency. Crap jobs make for great stories.

kurosov
Jun 25, 2012, 08:10 AM
Sounds like they want apple to use a commission based pay system for their retail stores when that is one of the main reasons shopping at an apple store is great.

Those systems essentially forge employees to go for a sale of certain items even when they are not right for the consumer. They cause staff to worry for their job if their sales are too low, managers to hound staff who are not seen selling enough of x product and customers being blatantly lied to and cheated by the sales staff because sales numbers are more important than customers.

JHankwitz
Jun 25, 2012, 08:15 AM
I know what I want to purchase from an Apple store before I even enter the door. The only 'work' an Apple employee does from my perspective is take my money. The idea that this person should receive higher compensation because Apple knows how to sell products without having to use sales clerks to make the sale is crazy.

The way these stores are set up is excellent. If I need help, I see a 'Genius', who knows more and gets paid more than a sales clerk. This is the way our system works. If you don't like it, move to a Socialist country and suffer along with the rest of the equalized downtrodden masses.

applesith
Jun 25, 2012, 08:17 AM
No one is forcing anyone to work at an Apple store. They are not mistreated or overworked. Anyone signing a contract to work for an employer knows their pay.

Maybe the Times could make some jobs instead of constantly undermining those who do. It's never going to be good enough for the Times until Apple gives the company away to a union like the government did with GM.

yakapo
Jun 25, 2012, 08:17 AM
I've never bought anything from apple b/c of the guy/ girl at the store. I know what I want before I get there.

Someone posted something similar but if they don't like the salary then get a different job.

JHankwitz
Jun 25, 2012, 08:19 AM
Back in 2003, I worked at The Virgin Megastore in Union Square while in college. Pay was $7 an hour. After working there for a 4 months, they did give me a raise. 13 cents. I kid you not.

A 1.8% pay raise after only 4 months is pretty good. Most are luckey to get 2% after a year.

radiogoober
Jun 25, 2012, 08:20 AM
Ugh, the liberal entitled generation is absolutely disgusting.

8281
Jun 25, 2012, 08:21 AM
Wow, yet another anti-capitalism, anti-Apple diatribe from the NYT. What a surprise. Perhaps the government should mandate pay rates based on a company's success in the marketplace. Am I right comrades?

A little hyperbolic perhaps? Criticizing a company isn't any more anti-capitilist than criticizing our government is anti-American.

scoobydoo99
Jun 25, 2012, 08:23 AM
Easily the stupidest premise for a story I've seen in a while.

Who cares how much the salespeople make relative to the company's profits? Nowhere in retail do the sales staff take home a salary commensurate with the company's profits. Why would anyone expect otherwise?

The reporter, editor, and anyone who pushes this drivel (including MacRumors) should be out of a job. They know this is just sensational trash "journalism".

Kabeyun
Jun 25, 2012, 08:25 AM
Before concluding anything about Apple's semployment practices, I'd be interested in the average age of Apple's sales staff. Surprised that the NYTimes didn't consider that. I'd be less bothered by a low starting wage if the average Apple salesperson is younger than that at those other retailers. Based on my experience at four Apple stores, I'd expect this to be true.

martygras9
Jun 25, 2012, 08:26 AM
A 1.8% pay raise after only 4 months is pretty good. Most are luckey to get 2% after a year.

Quite true, sir. I was one of the lucky ones. Majority of the employees didn't get a pay increase as the store wasn't bringing in enough money. Hence why both Megastores are no longer present in Manhattan.

NetCatman
Jun 25, 2012, 08:27 AM
Absolutely - NYT never ever has any political agenda. Wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more.

Exactly! Completely unbiased. On a related note, interested in buying a bridge?

8281
Jun 25, 2012, 08:28 AM
Ugh, the liberal entitled generation is absolutely disgusting.

Opposed to the Boomer entitlement generation? Two of the largest expenditures in the federal budget will soon be Medicare and Social Security (barring any significant reform, of course). They also voted for lower taxes and expanded Medicare prescription drug coverage during two wars...

scorwitz
Jun 25, 2012, 08:29 AM
This is a tough one. I'm all for employees sharing in the wealth of their company. The retail employees provide a great service and are often the ones who gently nudge the customer into the decision to purchase.

Ideally they would make a very fair percentage commission in addition to a base hourly rate. BUT that would completely shift their incentive from one of helping and being excited about the product to one of wanting a sale at any cost. Better that Apple make this the best retail job available, and they could have afforded more of an increase.

carmenodie
Jun 25, 2012, 08:29 AM
I wasn't aware that retail employees were considered skilled workers. People should stop whining.

You don't have to be a skilled worker to make an great salary. The public spends in excess and billions of dollars enters Apple's bank account every year.
Hell, I knew middle school drop outs from the hood making over 7 grand a week slinging crack and heroine.
And top designers may come up with the design but they draw it once and it is reproduced millions of times by slave laborers in 3rd world countries.

blumpkin
Jun 25, 2012, 08:30 AM
Jesus ****ing Christ is it possible to enjoy any modicum of success without being labeled a villain? For ****'s sake they are retail employees. If their sales skills are so stellar then maybe they should be selling something else.

champ01
Jun 25, 2012, 08:30 AM
is all that they needed to say.

Apple's products SELL THEMSELVES.

----------



Slaves can't leave, Apple employees can.

Riiiight...
Do you work in dreamland by any change?

We're all slaves to this BS economy.

juanm
Jun 25, 2012, 08:31 AM
They are selling electronics. They are selling electronics. They are selling electronics.

In case you missed it they are selling electronics. It's not strenuous physical labor. They are not 1000's of feet above or below ground. They are not working in hazardous conditions, with heavy machinery or around any number of things that could kill or injure them. They are not even doing skilled delicate tedious work that requires years of training. They are selling electronics.

Actually, trying to sell the "new" Mac Pro must be a strenuous labor and require excellent skills!

nutjob
Jun 25, 2012, 08:35 AM
I was a bit appalled to hear that Apple made their products using low paid labour in China. Good to see that they're using low paid labour in this great country as well.

ruvil
Jun 25, 2012, 08:39 AM
Riiiight...
Do you work in dreamland by any change?

We're all slaves to this BS economy.

I agree... i seriously wonder if people here are serious or just trolls. "Just leave"? When the economy is as bad as it is... yeah sure. Only stupid people leaves their jobs just like that.

Why do people here even complain about what other people earns, i seriously do not understand it. If the Apple Store employees feels that they need a bit more money - then that's their call. Not anybody else.

bossxii
Jun 25, 2012, 08:40 AM
They should be paid what the market average is, nothing more. Apple stores do well be of Apple products and Apple's marketing, not some teenager in a blue shirt. Thousands apply to work at Apple because they think "it's cool" and they will get a discount. They hire based on personality as much as anything. Apple has very highly skilled software and hardware engineers making around 100k, I would be rather pissed if some retail worker is making half my salary "just because". This is a slippery slope for any retailer to follow as one or two years of success can cost you a fortune in salaries and wages on your general labor force.

I've never walked into an Apple store because of it's employee's, I walk in because the Apple products are on display to check out before I buy. They have zero affect on if I buy or not. Granted yes, many non tech people listen to them and they may help them into a new laptop, but that's hardly a tough sell. Apple sells their own product and the retail store just makes it handy. Put in some self checkout kiosks with some iPads on it and the store will still blow through product.

NorEaster
Jun 25, 2012, 08:40 AM
I can say as a former Apple Retail employee, A LOT. Sure there were a lot of customers that sort of knew exactly what they wanted walking in, but those are the same kind of customers who are more inclined to order online. The value-add for those customers is NOT hovering around you, helping get your product quickly and easily, sometimes helping confirm your research/decision (adding to buyer confidence), answering lingering questions or giving first-hand recommendations on things like accessories. And after all that, you'll then recommend going to the Apple Store to your grandma over ordering online or Best Buy.

I don't think most people posting in this forum would understand, but there were tons and tons of people coming into the stores that are intimidated by technology. The warm, friendly, helpful retail staff really helped make the difference, especially with Mac and iPad. Also, a lot of people buy iPhones in Apple Stores rather than carrier stores because Apple has a reputation of having friendlier staff and

Good face-to-face experience with staff also converts not just into immediate sales, but future sales as well. I couldn't count the number of times I had a customer come in ready to spend a ton of money on a top-of-the-line system, but after a brief discussion about their usage I ended up recommending a less expensive model (you don't need a $2500 computer to check facebook and organize your iPhoto). Customers tend to appreciate that honesty, and then not only return to that store for future purchases, but recommend it to friends.

Apple does indeed pay really well compared to other stores in the Mall, but those other stores are generally selling things like clothes, shoes, stationary, books. Selling computers definitely requires more technical knowledge, application knowledge, the ability to relate technical concepts to less tech-savvy people, and at Apple specifically requires refined customer service skills. And the stakes are much higher -- if someone decides to buy their jeans at a different retailer, your jeans store is out $50. If someone decides to buy their computer at the Microsoft Store (who have been actively poaching Apple Retail employees), Apple's out $1500+. It's better to compare to a car dealership or high-end jewelry store than just "retail" in general.

Well written.. I completely agree. Whether or not you agree with increasing pay for Apple retail employees or with the NYT's perspective, I find it misanthropic for folks on this thread to be bashing retail jobs and the people that fill them. Regardless of how you feel about compensation for Apple store employees, you should recognize that there's a difference in selling burgers at McDonalds or selling clothes at JCPenney vs. selling products at Apple. Many of you who are criticizing Apple store employees (by either questioning how hard it really is or the value add that Apple store employees provide) are forgetting that one perk of being an Apple owner IS the in-store experience that you get.

As the poster above noted, many people enter these stores without knowing what they want or also needing guidance on technology questions/decisions. Think about this: How many times has a friend or family member asked you about an Apple product? Probably more than you can count. Now think about them walking into an Apple store vs. a big-box retailer and asking the same questions there...where do you think they'll get the best service and information? A great customer experience also builds brand loyalty and leads to more sales.

Now let's take the example of an Apple-literate buyer. I've walked in to an Apple store and have known exactly what I wanted to buy, but I still appreciate the store's employees in helping me quickly get my product so I can leave the store with as little hassle as possible (note: this applies to big-ticket items of course...not accessories where I can check-out the item myself). So even in this case, where I need minimal help, I can still appreciate what the employees there have done for me.

Again, regardless of your position on "fair compensation", you shouldn't marginalize the Apple store employees. (Final note: Yes, I'm well aware that these employees are only selling electronics...they are not saving lives, they are not performing intense manual labor, and they work in climate-controlled conditions with fairly decent pay. I get that and I'm not arguing that they are underpaid or overpaid either way).

SlickShoes
Jun 25, 2012, 08:43 AM
He never said they were lesser beings. You're putting words in his mouth. He said that anyone in the world can do their job. Which is true. That's how things work. The more you have to offer (skills, training, experience, education, etc.) the more people are willing to pay you and the more you can demand. Pretty simple. And there is nothing wrong with that. And there is nothing wrong with working retail. But you get paid in this world based on what you have to offer.

And who says you can't enjoy life doing things you love with people you love and still make tons of money. The two are not mutually exclusive. I LOVE what I do for a living and I make extremely good money and love my life and live it to the fullest. My goal was never money though, that's just a side benefit from ending up loving something that is in high demand.

Read his post he compared retail workers to monkeys.

I have a well paying job, hence why I can buy lots of macs, I am reasonably happy with that too.

I never said that you can't earn and be happy, just people have to understand that other people can be perfectly happy in life on a modest income and life situation. Not everyone has the skills to be a roaring success in everything that they do.

I just don't think anyone should be looking down there nose at retail staff, which is what the main tone of this thread is, its pretty sad.

Chupa Chupa
Jun 25, 2012, 08:44 AM
Actually, trying to sell the "new" Mac Pro must be a strenuous labor and require excellent skills!

Trust me, you have to be a regular Sherlock Holmes to find a Mac Pro in the Apple Store. It's usually hidden in a corner, and used more as a One on One Machine than a sales demo. It takes talent to find it. :D

ScoobyMcDoo
Jun 25, 2012, 08:45 AM
This argument that the retail employees "bring in" any sales at all is complete garbage. I've gone the the apple store, asked questions of the employees, got erroneous answers, read to find the correct answer, and bought the product nevertheless.

That being said, I sure like the way the Apple store employes conduct themselves as compared with the Microsoft Store employees. I walked into the MS store the other day and just got attacked by every employee - really high pressure. And they really wanted to do a competition with me and my iPhone to prove that their MS phone was better. Basically they take some obscure feature the MS phone has that they know the iPhone doesn't have (without downloading the appropriate app), and prove to you that their phone is better because they can do something (they have rehearsed) faster than you can.

SlickShoes
Jun 25, 2012, 08:48 AM
Well written.. I completely agree. Whether or not you agree with increasing pay for Apple retail employees or with the NYT's perspective, I find it misanthropic for folks on this thread to be bashing retail jobs and the people that fill them. Regardless of how you feel about compensation for Apple store employees, you should recognize that there's a difference in selling burgers at McDonalds or selling clothes at JCPenney vs. selling products at Apple. Many of you who are criticizing Apple store employees (by either questioning how hard it really is or the value add that Apple store employees provide) are forgetting that one perk of being an Apple owner IS the in-store experience that you get.

As the poster above noted, many people enter these stores without knowing what they want or also needing guidance on technology questions/decisions. Think about this: How many times has a friend or family member asked you about an Apple product? Probably more than you can count. Now think about them walking into an Apple store vs. a big-box retailer and asking the same questions there...where do you think they'll get the best service and information? A great customer experience also builds brand loyalty and leads to more sales.

Now let's take the example of an Apple-literate buyer. I've walked in to an Apple store and have known exactly what I wanted to buy, but I still appreciate the store's employees in helping me quickly get my product so I can leave the store with as little hassle as possible (note: this applies to big-ticket items of course...not accessories where I can check-out the item myself). So even in this case, where I need minimal help, I can still appreciate what the employees there have done for me.

Again, regardless of your position on "fair compensation", you shouldn't marginalize the Apple store employees. (Final note: Yes, I'm well aware that these employees are only selling electronics...they are not saving lives, they are not performing intense manual labor, and they work in climate-controlled conditions with fairly decent pay. I get that and I'm not arguing that they are underpaid or overpaid either way).

The bit in bold really does it for me, when I went to buy my ipad I walked in, picked one up, told the guy i wanted that one, bought it and left.

When I went to PC world to look at a macbook, I chose the one I wanted, the guy tried to sell me office, he tried to sell me a 36 month payment plan, he then tried to sell me insurance, i told him that i was an IT technician and I can fix most stuff myself, he then looked down his nose at me, asked me what id do if the screen fell off and tried to sell me insurance again. At that point I left PC world and have never been back.

badmac78
Jun 25, 2012, 08:49 AM
1. I've worked in retail (computer for 3yrs) ... $12/hr is not bad
2. I have been working in corporate america for the last 12yrs ... the only folks that are taking home more than 5% of what they bring in are folks in the finance industry.
3. If you have a clue you know that pay is not the only important thing about a job. Benefits (Healthcare, 401(k)) and Perks (discounts, stock purchases, training) play a big part.

I believe we saw this same behavior once in the US, the car industry. workers wanted more money to cover their second home and their boats (considered a decent middle class life) and all of a sudden Ford and the like couldn't make enough money to stay solvent, then we as tax payers had to bail them out.

Let's look at how much Apple actually spends per employee (not just wages) and compare that to Walmart.

Another article for NTY to attempt to stay relavent.

NetCatman
Jun 25, 2012, 08:49 AM
Uh, isn't that illegal?

Yes. But reverse-discrimination is given the blind eye.

errorunknown
Jun 25, 2012, 08:50 AM
Yeah, that's pretty bad.

$12 an hour is NOT bad for retail. I worked as a Certified Nursing Assistant, made $12 an hour, and that was HARD WORK. I would've killed to do retail instead.

iSee
Jun 25, 2012, 08:51 AM
This all comes off as fairly whiny.
And none of it is specific to Apple...
And these sound like the kind of jobs I had in my early twenties. I didn't whine about it though. I whet and got a better job.

AustinIllini
Jun 25, 2012, 08:51 AM
I used to be a credit controller for an insurance company...

I chased $millions every month... and only ever had to write off/send for legal action a very tiny %...

Only got paid $35,000pa...

Admittedly, if the company made a profit for the year, there was a bonus paid to employees, however due to technical losses and other bookkeeping, I only received that bonus once...

Agreed. If Apple employees are worth more for making the company $500,000 a year,
Doctors are worth countless dollars
Engineers are worth countless dollars
Lawyers are worth countless dollars
Electricians are worth a huge amount of money

Would someone take a second and explain to me
1) How would this system not send more money to the top?
2) Why this way doesn't work

faroZ06
Jun 25, 2012, 08:52 AM
1. Retailing is not "hard" (in terms of required skills). I could do it right now with basically no training.

2. This article says that Apple pays its employees more than average for retail..... but they make more money, so the employees should get higher pays. Translated: Apple is already paying its employees more than usual, but they're such a big company that people have to target them to get attention.

NetCatman
Jun 25, 2012, 08:54 AM
Greed is the root of all evil !!

America, take note.

Amen

faroZ06
Jun 25, 2012, 08:57 AM
Yes. But reverse-discrimination is given the blind eye.

It's only illegal if you choose to hire all men. There aren't many masculinists (real word) out there, possibly due to the clumsiness of the word.

----------

Greed is the root of all evil !!

America, take note.

I would say insanity. I could name plenty of non-greedy evil people.

ericinboston
Jun 25, 2012, 09:02 AM
If the Apple Store don't like their salaries, they are more than welcome to go work somewhere else.

Capitalism wins here.

EXACTLY! And they are not SALARIED employees...they are HOURLY...my guess is a VERY HIGH PERCENTAGE of Apple Retail employees are probably working 20-30 hours a week while in high school or college. The remaining percentage are store managers that are out of school and work 40+ hours a week...and yes, those managers are likely paid quite a bit more and likely have health coverage, etc. It's probably not glamorous but dude, IT'S RETAIL!!!!

I wouldn't want to be 33 years old earning minimum wage...so if I were 33, I'd get my butt out of retail.

The problem with this reporting/article is that it promotes some kind of COMMUNISM in that all the wealth should be equally shared among all employees. Not so.

Besides, working at an Apple store is simple compared to most other retailers: all you sell is 4 products (iPhone, iPad, iPod, and Mac), there are no shelves to stock, no mass cleanup/rearranging every night (like clothing stores or music stores), the store is quite small so not a lot of walking, and it's actually FUN to be in an exciting store that has cool stuff. There are a LOT of Retail employees in the USA that hate their job or at least dislike the daily in/out of their Retail job. What can an Apple employee possibly complain about?! Seriously.

If you don't like the Retail job market, do something else. Get a salary job...or start your own business...or work for a small business earning much more in an hourly wage...or whatever else you want to do.

imageWIS
Jun 25, 2012, 09:04 AM
If the Apple Store don't like their salaries, they are more than welcome to go work somewhere else.

Capitalism wins here.

By 'capitalism' you mean feudalism, then yes.

mike457
Jun 25, 2012, 09:07 AM
I have to admit that I didn't get the point of this article, other than to make things sound bad.

1) Of course there are few opportunities for promotion. It's retail! The number of floor employees is always going to be a lot higher than the number of managers, and there aren't going to be that many jobs beyond the level of manager. That lack of advancement should be expected when you go into a retail job. What proportion of employees actually enter retail as a lifelong career anyway?
2) Apple already pays better than most retailers and offers benefits, a point the article makes, though it makes it in such a way as to make it sound like a bad thing.
3) I thought the legitimate point of the article is working conditions. The most convenient Apple stores for me to reach are Eaton Centre and Yorkdale in Toronto, both of which always seem to be incredibly busy and don't seem to be large enough for the volume of traffic. I have to admit I freak at crowds, so I try to be very strategic when I go in. I do think that having that level of noise and crowding all day long would be very stressful; employee burn-out is probably a serious issue. Even so, I have never found the people working in those stores to be less than extremely helpful and calm in manner. I have also been in the Apple store in Hamilton on a Saturday morning and found almost no one in the store; I expect that the environment varies considerably depending upon where the store is.

imageWIS
Jun 25, 2012, 09:07 AM
This is pretty ridiculous, since when do companies "share" their wealth with employees based on dollars earned per square foot? They aren't owners, they're employees. As long as their compensation is comparable to other retail jobs, where's the problem? No one gets rich working retail, that sucks but that's just the way it is. You want to get rich then write some software after leaving the Apple Store.

What is it with this black and white notion of 'no one gets rich'?!? How about making a living wage?

faroZ06
Jun 25, 2012, 09:09 AM
Wait a second, so if I just go and get a job at an Apple Retail Store right now, this guy thinks I should be rewarded for the company's success. If that was the case, nobody would want to work for small companies.

----------

What is it with this black and white notion of 'no one gets rich'?!? How about making a living wage?

You can definitely live off of that wage, but not in luxury. If you want a good wage, you have to have a few skills.

powers74
Jun 25, 2012, 09:09 AM
25K? Damn. That's almost what I make! And I have two professional degrees - one that would allow me to work for Apple designing products (were I awesome enough for that)... Maybe I should just move to K-town and work at the apple store... The insurance is probably better too come to think of it.


I used to work at the Apple store in KOP, PA making $10/hr. The people who ran the kiosks in the middle selling Pillow Pals and knockoff sunglasses got $15/hr. Many other retailers got paid more.

You can't have a family and afford Apple products for $10/hr.

Maybe because they were selling $0.99 Chinese sunglasses for $20 all day? Why didn't you go work at a Kiosk?

AuburnApple
Jun 25, 2012, 09:10 AM
If Apple were to have some sort of commision based pay as some here suggest, it would destroy part of what make the Apple Store sales model so sucessful. Apple Stores are a place where people can go and hang out, check out products, and get answers from employees if they have them. It is about creating an experience and letting the products sell themselves. The second you add commision to the equation, the Apple Store becomes just another high pressure electronics store with employees hovering over potential customers like buzzards. Whether or not their hourly wage should be increased is another debate, but commisions aren't the answer.

faroZ06
Jun 25, 2012, 09:10 AM
By 'capitalism' you mean feudalism, then yes.

Feudalism is completely different. If everyone went by "company success = higher wages", then:

1. Successful companies will be forced to have higher prices.
2. Nobody will want to work for small companies, even ones that may become very successful.
3. You could get more pay with few skills just by being lucky enough to get a job at Apple or Exxon.
4. Government workers would be paid negative money.

This article is just an attention-getting stab at Apple, and they've now succeeded.

Abazigal
Jun 25, 2012, 09:12 AM
Raise demand for employees just because Apple makes so much money, and not because the current salary isn't enough, doesn't sound so right. If the employees feel stressful about their salary (which I doubt they do), they can quit at anytime and many others are more than willing to take their place.

I think this pretty much sums up the entire argument.

I find it hypocritical that a company which is already paying its employees better than the market average is being singled out for apparently not doing enough.

Sometimes, I wish Steve was still around. All these criticism of Apple is starting to get tiresome, and I think only Steve would have the arrogance to remain unfazed yet faintly amused by it all.

The more they try to troll for change, the more Apple shows them the middle finger by continuing to do just the direct opposite. That will show them. :rolleyes: