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MacBytes
Jul 25, 2005, 06:43 AM
http://www.macbytes.com/images/bytessig.gif (http://www.macbytes.com)

Category: Microsoft
Link: Next generation Windows officially named "Windows Vista" (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20050725074347)

Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug

Stella
Jul 25, 2005, 07:10 AM
Since I've yet to use a decent microsoft application I doubt whether this next version of windows will be any different.

A lot of features are a rip off of Mac OS.

I've always found the windows GUI awkward and frustrating to use.. when File Explorer hangs, the entire desktop hangs ( not apps ) i.e., start bar etc. All linked together. Not particularly good design.. yes I know Dock is linked to the Dashboard - in OSX - which isn't too good either.

The windows GUI is quirky and inconsistent - which OSX interface is becoming, but not THAT bad yet..

No version of windows has been particularly secure or stable.

adamfilip
Jul 25, 2005, 07:22 AM
I dont Mind the name.

One thing with windows and why i dont like it so much is that it keeps bugging you with messages about whats going on. and as much as i like to know whats going on with my system. Id rather do what I was planning instead of clicking on little popup bubbles saying my system is now again secure or that an update has been installed. or whatever

windows never seems to leave you alone.

Fiveos22
Jul 25, 2005, 07:26 AM
News is a little slow these days...how come we didn't hear about this a few days ago?

cwtnospam
Jul 25, 2005, 07:31 AM
A virus platform by any other name ...

Photorun
Jul 25, 2005, 07:33 AM
Vista means "view," in Italian, they should have called it "Vista Malvagita" or "View of Evil." I'm sure it'll be just another bloaty craptacular windoze version, M$ has about as much chance of creating something compelling of a snail frozen in ice setting a land speed record.

macFanDave
Jul 25, 2005, 07:41 AM
In a black-box warning, MicroShaft's "new" OS will have to have the following words:

WARNING: The system contained in this box exposes its users to:

Viruses,
Infections,
Spyware,
Trojans,
Adware,

and should not be used by children, the elderly, pregnant women, men, women or any other mammal with moderate cognitive abilities. Have a nice day!

macFanDave
Jul 25, 2005, 07:45 AM
Does that mean that the ad campaign from MicroShaft will have Joy Behar, Barbara Walters and other annoyingly chatty women pimping it in Spanish?

"Ola, computadora! Que pasa? . . ."

Ugh.

Wonder Boy
Jul 25, 2005, 08:02 AM
News is a little slow these days...how come we didn't hear about this a few days ago?

a valid point considering i submitted this a little after midnight friday morning.

iMeowbot
Jul 25, 2005, 08:08 AM
Vista means "view," in Italian, they should have called it "Vista Malvagita" or "View of Evil."
The Inquirer (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=24869) mention that, and an interesting Sanskrit interpretation :D

bodeh6
Jul 25, 2005, 08:08 AM
Look at these fools. Just like Steve Balmer on that video a while back.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/images/press/2005/07-22lh.jpg

Here is a link to the video.

http://www.microsoft.com/winme/0507/25234/Win_Name_MBR.asx

autrefois
Jul 25, 2005, 08:15 AM
In a black-box warning, MicroShaft's "new" OS will have to have the following words:

WARNING: The system contained in this box exposes its users to:

Viruses,
Infections,
Spyware,
Trojans,
Adware,

and should not be used by children, the elderly, pregnant women, men, women or any other mammal with moderate cognitive abilities. Have a nice day!

Good one! :)

I think the name "Vista" sounds good: it is a word in several European languages (Spanish, Italian, French, English, Portuguese, perhaps others?) and has good connotations: they are working on improving graphics (improving the visual experience), Microsoft is "look"ing towards the future, etc.

Whether it will be these ideas or macFanDave's V.I.S.T.A. that is more accurate, only time will tell.

autrefois
Jul 25, 2005, 08:47 AM
The Inquirer (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=24869) mention that, and an interesting Sanskrit interpretation :D

I'd like to see someone who's studied Sanskrit verify this.

The Inquirer spends a paragraph explaining that there are many pronunciations possible and that consonants and vowels don't translate neatly between Sanskrit and other languages. A quick search shows that this interesting tidbit is overwhelmingly if not exclusively being mention in regards to Windows.

What is their source for this information? They don't say. Their source for Spanish translations is apparently Google Language Tools. Which leads me to think they didn't spend a lot of time verifying this...

There's a debate (http://it.slashdot.org/it/05/07/22/0435253.shtml
) going on about this on Slashdot.org. Someone who claims to have studied Sanskrit says:

"I didn't know Sanskrit was such a popular language. But (deliberate) ignorance is pretty saddening. I'm a Sanskritist.

First of all, "vista" actually exists in Sanskrit. Citing from Monier Williams Sanskrit-English Dictonary: vista m. (ifc. f. aa) a partic. weight of gold (= 80 Raktikaas or a Karsha of 16 Maashas, about half an ounce troy), Praayashc.

Also, [...] Sanskrit is a language, Devanagari is a script (as another poster points out). Sanskrit can be transcribed in many scripts. [...]

I guess the parent poster wanted to be just funny."

As much as I dislike Windows and Microsoft, I think the article writers at the Inquirer shouldn't make things up or bend a language they know nothing about just to get cheap laughs. If they want to do this, they should change their name to "Enquirer" or clearly indicate they aren't reporting facts.

SiliconAddict
Jul 25, 2005, 09:09 AM
No version of windows has been particularly secure or stable.


Out of the box? No. With a bit of tweaking. My home XP system hasn't been rebooted since January when I installed a 7800 GeForce. XP doesn't crash. Period and if its crashing on you you simply didn't set it up right. I literally spend a week configuring a new system before ghosting it out to a sep partition for easy restore. (It takes me 15 minutes to redo any of my computers. I generally redo them every other year.)

As for explorer.exe and its quirkyness. Yah. It somewhat sucks but at least MS has learned how to respawn the shell if it blows up. So 90% of the time something hangs on it like a network share you x out of the window. It blows up the GUI and Windows goes "oh damn. Well I guess I will respawn explorer.exe." Small tip if it doesn't. (That other 10% of the time.) Simply hit control-alt-del click on task manager, click on file -> run, type explorer.exe and click OK and you are back. No big deal. The GUI is faster then X's in certain chores. Things like network browsing. I've never seen a beachball or hourglass on Windows NT/2K/XP (9x is a different matter.) because you can X out of the window, blow up the GUI, and it starts over. Instead of sitting there and waiting for the OS to release the window. I like to think of it as managed chaos. I think Armstrong (Or was it Buzz?) called the moon magnificent desolation. The same could be described of Windows.

As for Windows Explorer. I have not seen anyone use finder in a manner that can keep up with me when it comes to nav around an OS. The address bar in Windows explorer is the single most powerful nav feature that MS has rolled out into its OS. That line is for all intents and purposes a command line with auto fill or more specificly it lists the various files\folders to allow you to browse faster then any point and click option. So I can type C:\pro....the OS lists all the files and folders with pro.....tab tab tab to program files....hit \ the os lists everything and I type Moz..the OS lists everything with moz....tab tab to Mozilla Firefox....hit \ and again the OS lists everything until I profiles and slash [enter] I there. All of 3 seconds...maybe. Its the single most overlooked feature in windows. It even allows you to run command line entries from there.

As for Vista....*Mornes the loss of being able to use Longshot as a zinger* :( ...shrugs. I'm getting the beta next month if it comes out. The beta was due LAST month. So obviously they are rushing even the beta. I think Vista will be a fine OS....after about 3 service packs and god knows how many bug fixes and compatability patches. Anyone who things Vista is going to be rock solid out of the gate is hopped up on a little to much of MS's happy juice.

richters
Jul 25, 2005, 09:14 AM
I would really like it if people would be crying out "Hasta la vista Microsoft" and move over to "Hello Apple". Maybe as an advertising slogan for Apple...

SiliconAddict
Jul 25, 2005, 09:15 AM
In a black-box warning, MicroShaft's "new" OS will have to have the following words:

WARNING: The system contained in this box exposes its users to:

Viruses,
Infections,
Spyware,
Trojans,
Adware,

and should not be used by children, the elderly, pregnant women, men, women or any other mammal with moderate cognitive abilities. Have a nice day!

Hmmm well "theoretically" Vista will be running in a user mode type environment similar to how OS X runs. Remember that the reason for at least 60% of windows security problems is that by default users are running in an Admin setting. Vista is again "theoretically" going to change this. But again the system is only as smart as its operator. Spyware\adware should be less of a problem because of MS's built in spyware scanner. The beta software on MS's site is again "theoretically" going to be built into Vista. But on the other hand its still IE....but IE 7.0. So who knows what they are going to change. Still catchy acronym :D

BGil
Jul 25, 2005, 10:35 AM
As for Vista....*Mornes the loss of being able to use Longshot as a zinger* ...shrugs. I'm getting the beta next month if it comes out. The beta was due LAST month. So obviously they are rushing even the beta. I think Vista will be a fine OS....after about 3 service packs and god knows how many bug fixes and compatability patches. Anyone who things Vista is going to be rock solid out of the gate is hopped up on a little to much of MS's happy juice.

The Beta was scheduled for "summer 2005" and summer doesn't end until Sept 21st. Internal Beta testing began a while back. They've been removing all the known bugs in the system.
They've actually given out Beta 1 and later code already, which is how those 5203 screenshots came about. They just haven't released any Beta 1 code to MSDN.

Officially, those June 30th and July 27th dates were just rumors. Since August of last year, Microsoft has only given two dates for Beta 1;
"Summer 2005" and now "August 3rd"... they're on track for both of those dates AFAIK.

Stella
Jul 25, 2005, 10:45 AM
Even after tweaking windows is very insecure.

There are a lot more quirky things about the GUI than I have time to comment on here.. a few:
- on some Directory selection dialogs you cannot type a path, you have to use the GUI to select the directory you want. This is legacy, but its slow and inefficient
- IF i type in an incorrect path name in file explorer I get Page not found. I'm not looking for a web page. Integration of IE in to file explorer is a very poor idea.
- The default settings for Start menu - Program file sub menu obscures the right hand side of the menu menu if you move the move slowly over the Program Files Menu name
- You go to the start menu to shutdown!!!

A few examples.... a whole, whole lot more!




Out of the box? No. With a bit of tweaking. My home XP system hasn't been rebooted since January when I installed a 7800 GeForce. XP doesn't crash. Period and if its crashing on you you simply didn't set it up right. I literally spend a week configuring a new system before ghosting it out to a sep partition for easy restore. (It takes me 15 minutes to redo any of my computers. I generally redo them every other year.)

As for explorer.exe and its quirkyness. Yah. It somewhat sucks but at least MS has learned how to respawn the shell if it blows up. So 90% of the time something hangs on it like a network share you x out of the window. It blows up the GUI and Windows goes "oh damn. Well I guess I will respawn explorer.exe." Small tip if it doesn't. (That other 10% of the time.) Simply hit control-alt-del click on task manager, click on file -> run, type explorer.exe and click OK and you are back. No big deal. The GUI is faster then X's in certain chores. Things like network browsing. I've never seen a beachball or hourglass on Windows NT/2K/XP (9x is a different matter.) because you can X out of the window, blow up the GUI, and it starts over. Instead of sitting there and waiting for the OS to release the window. I like to think of it as managed chaos. I think Armstrong (Or was it Buzz?) called the moon magnificent desolation. The same could be described of Windows.

As for Windows Explorer. I have not seen anyone use finder in a manner that can keep up with me when it comes to nav around an OS. The address bar in Windows explorer is the single most powerful nav feature that MS has rolled out into its OS. That line is for all intents and purposes a command line with auto fill or more specificly it lists the various files\folders to allow you to browse faster then any point and click option. So I can type C:\pro....the OS lists all the files and folders with pro.....tab tab tab to program files....hit \ the os lists everything and I type Moz..the OS lists everything with moz....tab tab to Mozilla Firefox....hit \ and again the OS lists everything until I profiles and slash [enter] I there. All of 3 seconds...maybe. Its the single most overlooked feature in windows. It even allows you to run command line entries from there.

As for Vista....*Mornes the loss of being able to use Longshot as a zinger* :( ...shrugs. I'm getting the beta next month if it comes out. The beta was due LAST month. So obviously they are rushing even the beta. I think Vista will be a fine OS....after about 3 service packs and god knows how many bug fixes and compatability patches. Anyone who things Vista is going to be rock solid out of the gate is hopped up on a little to much of MS's happy juice.

Mudbug
Jul 25, 2005, 10:47 AM
sorry about the delay in updates lately - I'm back in the country, so things should be back to normal. There's been quite a backlog of submissions, so I'm going through as fast as I can.

I like the acronym for Vista, btw. ;)

runninmac
Jul 25, 2005, 10:52 AM
Look at these fools. Just like Steve Balmer on that video a while back.

Here is a link to the video.

http://www.microsoft.com/winme/0507/25234/Win_Name_MBR.asx

That is possibly the most fake infomercialish presentation I have ever watched and Microsoft sucks at streaming video it had to pause or stop at least 6 times for a minute video.

tgrimley
Jul 25, 2005, 11:07 AM
- on some Directory selection dialogs you cannot type a path, you have to use the GUI to select the directory you want. This is legacy, but its slow and inefficient


Are you talking about save/open etc dialogs? I have no problem typing in the path, and it still lists the choices as well.


That is possibly the most fake infomercialish presentation I have ever watched and Microsoft sucks at streaming video it had to pause or stop at least 6 times for a minute video.


I think this is probably a connection issue. If your bandwidth isn't enough then it'll buffer no matter the format. In my experience, though, wmv's are the smoothest streaming videos.. as much as I hate wmp.

Stella
Jul 25, 2005, 11:34 AM
On some dialogs (at the moment, i can't think of an example, though they are there ), you cannot type, you have to use the GUI to navigate.

Are you talking about save/open etc dialogs? I have no problem typing in the path, and it still lists the choices as well.



I think this is probably a connection issue. If your bandwidth isn't enough then it'll buffer no matter the format. In my experience, though, wmv's are the smoothest streaming videos.. as much as I hate wmp.

SiliconAddict
Jul 25, 2005, 11:47 AM
Even after tweaking windows is very insecure.

There are a lot more quirky things about the GUI than I have time to comment on here.. a few:
- on some Directory selection dialogs you cannot type a path, you have to use the GUI to select the directory you want. This is legacy, but its slow and inefficient
- IF i type in an incorrect path name in file explorer I get Page not found. I'm not looking for a web page. Integration of IE in to file explorer is a very poor idea.
- The default settings for Start menu - Program file sub menu obscures the right hand side of the menu menu if you move the move slowly over the Program Files Menu name
- You go to the start menu to shutdown!!!

A few examples.... a whole, whole lot more!


The same could be said of OS X. All GUI's have their flaky behavior. Its just in the case of Mac users they get use to the quirks just as Windows users get use to their quirks.
As for security. Show me examples of windows being insecure after the following:
-Install SP2 and the 30 or so other patches there are out there. :rolleyes:
-Turn off all unnecessary services.
-Turn off netBIOS.
-Turn off remote desktop sharing.
-Turn off Windows Error reporting.
-Install or enable a firewall. (Tiny Firewall is the best Iíve ever seen. Mine, and the US air forceís of choice.)
-Install your mail client of preference and download the latest spam filters.
-Install Norton AV Corp edition
-Install FireFox
-Install the Firefox addin popupsmustdie.
-Install MS spyware scanner (Even though you really don't need it with Firefox.
-Apply the "secure" security policies templates to the group policy after you tweak it a bit. MS's secure settings are anal and do keep some apps from running. Small tweaks fix this. This is the setting that takes me about three days to configure.
-Lock down the system's registry with regedit32.exe. You can define user rights to specific registry hives to make it next to impossible for most adware/spyware to even install or if it does its going to sit there like an idiot because it can't do anything with the registry.

There are about 30 other things I do this is off the top of my head. You can secure Windows. Itís not that hard. It is however time consuming. Hence my argument and the reason I'm getting a Mac. Why spend so much time configuring a system when you can get a Mac that already has that level of security by default. :rolleyes: Ummm sorry preaching to the converted already. :D

PS- The START thing. Start is to denote you are starting an action. Starting a program, making a change to a printer, etc. So in this case you are starting the shutdown process. Kinda stupid but there is a method to the insanity.

Krazykrl
Jul 25, 2005, 12:13 PM
Stella was happy to show you some examples of Windows quirkiness. You claim Mac OS X has its own, but you give no examples.......

Further more, how is 'Grandma' who just paid 300 bucks for her new Dell supposed to know how to "Install SP2" and "Turn off unnecessary services"?????? C'mon now. You start saying things like Norton and Remote Desktop Sharing and most novices would just give up right then and there.

Atleast with the Mac OS, just about anyone can use it and not get frightened. In my opinion.

Lastly, having to go to 'Start' to shutdown, is silly, just admit it and stop trying to defend it please.

Thank you.

- Karl

The same could be said of OS X. All GUI's have their flaky behavior. Its just in the case of Mac users they get use to the quirks just as Windows users get use to their quirks.
As for security. Show me examples of windows being insecure after the following:
-Install SP2 and the 30 or so other patches there are out there. :rolleyes:
-Turn off all unnecessary services.
-Turn off netBIOS.
-Turn off remote desktop sharing.
-Turn off Windows Error reporting.
-Install or enable a firewall. (Tiny Firewall is the best Iíve ever seen. Mine, and the US air forceís of choice.)
-Install your mail client of preference and download the latest spam filters.
-Install Norton AV Corp edition
-Install FireFox
-Install the Firefox addin popupsmustdie.
-Install MS spyware scanner (Even though you really don't need it with Firefox.
-Apply the "secure" security policies templates to the group policy after you tweak it a bit. MS's secure settings are anal and do keep some apps from running. Small tweaks fix this. This is the setting that takes me about three days to configure.
-Lock down the system's registry with regedit32.exe. You can define user rights to specific registry hives to make it next to impossible for most adware/spyware to even install or if it does its going to sit there like an idiot because it can't do anything with the registry.

There are about 30 other things I do this is off the top of my head. You can secure Windows. Itís not that hard. It is however time consuming. Hence my argument and the reason I'm getting a Mac. Why spend so much time configuring a system when you can get a Mac that already has that level of security by default. :rolleyes: Ummm sorry preaching to the converted already. :D

PS- The START thing. Start is to denote you are starting an action. Starting a program, making a change to a printer, etc. So in this case you are starting the shutdown process. Kinda stupid but there is a method to the insanity.

SiliconAddict
Jul 25, 2005, 12:28 PM
On some dialogs (at the moment, i can't think of an example, though they are there ), you cannot type, you have to use the GUI to navigate.

You are talking this:

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26745&stc=1

and it is a PITA. Yes there is some inconsistency. One of the biggest for me is that the run dialog box doesn't act the same as the address bar in file explorer. So instead of having it list the various items and hitting tab tab, tab to get to what you want and then simply going \ and filling out the rest of the path. When you hit tab it takes you to the OK box. Pisses me off to no end. That box would be very powerful and FAST if they would fix that one thing.

rockthecasbah
Jul 25, 2005, 12:35 PM
With more detailed info about Vista, this 'revolutionary' new Windows platform appears to be mostly talk, no brawn. To me it's just XP with a facelift and supposed improved features, nothing that OSX hasn't really done already...

Im not sure about the parental controls feature though, if it is like current Microsoft security it will definitely be quite easy for the kiddies to break ;)

SiliconAddict
Jul 25, 2005, 12:40 PM
Lastly, having to go to 'Start' to shutdown, is silly, just admit it and stop trying to defend it please.

Thank you.

- Karl

Just as silly as having to go into the preferences of a track in iTunes to delete album coverart instead of being able to drag it off of the browser window? Or my own personal pet peve is when you can't drag art into the display window but you have to go into the pref to add it. Why? No idea other then possibly.... Shhhh. Don't tell anyone......a bug
I don't run X yet. I will when Apple updates the Mini or comes out with a real update to the PowerBooks. But all you have to do is read Macrumors's forum to see the quirkiness my little newbie.
Spend a few months reading the boards and your rosy impression of X will disappear or at least those of us who donít treat an OS, be it MS or Apple, as a religious icon it will.
You are being totally dense. The start menu is no different then the blue apple. WTF does that mean?!?? A Blue Apple? MS has their way they do things. Apple has their way they do things. (Lets talk recycle bins as another example.) Unless you are a zealot you can see the pros and cons to both OSís.

SiliconAddict
Jul 25, 2005, 12:49 PM
nothing that OSX hasn't really done already...


And that the rub of it. This is MS playing catch-up to OS X from a technological point. (GUI is another matter that could be argued into the ground with no real outcome. They aren't surpassing them in any way. OK there may be a few tech items that Apple doesn't have. They escape me at the moment but I remember a nice little flamewar going on over at osnews.com and someone spent about a page and a half comparing X to a vaporeware Longhorn.
Again one person's sweet GUI is another's POS.) How well the catch up still remains to be seen as does its beta. It will be interesting to see what Leopard brings to the table because that will be the first OS to be release by Apple in the post Vista world. Hopefully its something substantial.

macidiot
Jul 25, 2005, 01:23 PM
Or my own personal pet peve is when you can't drag art into the display window but you have to go into the pref to add it. Why? No idea other then possibly.... Shhhh. Don't tell anyone......a bug


I might not be reading you right, but I'm pretty sure I can just drag and drop coverart into the display window to add it to a song. In fact, when I add a cd, I typically select all its songs, just drag the coverart into the window, and iTunes adds it to all of the songs...

In fact, doesn't the little album artwork window actually say "drag album artwork here" if there isn't any artwork associated with the track?

nagromme
Jul 25, 2005, 01:32 PM
Name is fine.

But I'll take Tiger any day... and Tiger actually exists :)

jettredmont
Jul 25, 2005, 01:54 PM
The same could be said of OS X. All GUI's have their flaky behavior. Its just in the case of Mac users they get use to the quirks just as Windows users get use to their quirks.
As for security. Show me examples of windows being insecure after the following:
-Install SP2 and the 30 or so other patches there are out there. :rolleyes:
-Turn off all unnecessary services.


Open Services dialog (as an Administrator, of course; if operating as a User need to log out and log in as an Admin). Glance at list. Stare at list. Wait for "unnecessary services" to jump out. Wait until eyes bug out and the list swims in a gray cloud in front of me. Nope, still not apparent exactly which of those I should turn off.

Turn off the wrong ones, and your system is dead. The "right" ones are hardly obvious at all.

This is NOT something a normal user can do, which is about half of the reason why normal users DON'T do it. The other half is that this is something a normal user SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO, and they damned well know it!

It's like buying a new car and the dealer telling you it'll run just great if you open the hood and disconnect the unnecessary wires!


-Turn off netBIOS.
-Turn off remote desktop sharing.
-Turn off Windows Error reporting.
-Install or enable a firewall. (Tiny Firewall is the best Iíve ever seen. Mine, and the US air forceís of choice.)
-Install your mail client of preference and download the latest spam filters.
-Install Norton AV Corp edition
-Install FireFox
-Install the Firefox addin popupsmustdie.
-Install MS spyware scanner (Even though you really don't need it with Firefox.
-Apply the "secure" security policies templates to the group policy after you tweak it a bit. MS's secure settings are anal and do keep some apps from running. Small tweaks fix this. This is the setting that takes me about three days to configure.
-Lock down the system's registry with regedit32.exe. You can define user rights to specific registry hives to make it next to impossible for most adware/spyware to even install or if it does its going to sit there like an idiot because it can't do anything with the registry.


Hmm. I've used Windows for many years, and I have no idea how to lock down the Registry. Never even heard it mentioned. How does one locate this special incantation?


There are about 30 other things I do this is off the top of my head. You can secure Windows. Itís not that hard. It is however time consuming.


I'd argue quite vehemently that if the user has to jump through these kinds of hoops, is given no official direction on how to get through them, and has to do multiduninous web searches just to know that the hoops themselves exist, not to mention how to jump them, then it most certainly is hard!


Hence my argument and the reason I'm getting a Mac. Why spend so much time configuring a system when you can get a Mac that already has that level of security by default. :rolleyes: Ummm sorry preaching to the converted already. :D

PS- The START thing. Start is to denote you are starting an action. Starting a program, making a change to a printer, etc. So in this case you are starting the shutdown process. Kinda stupid but there is a method to the insanity.

Actually, it used to be just "the Windows menu". No "Start", just the Windows icon on a button in the lower-right corner. THAT made sense. Everything the average user did to interact with WINDOWS, as opposed to an application running in Windows, started at the Windows menu. But MS focus grouped it and people tended to start Windows 95, see a blank screen with a long gray bar, and have no idea what they were supposed to do next. So, MS marketing monkeys added "Start" and the "<- Click here to start" bouncity text in the empty task bar to "guide" users. Now the focus group folks could get past the shock of seeing an empty screen and knew to click the only button apparent on that screen so that the screen might become un-empty. Success!

All other meanings of "Start" are post-facto rationalizations.

SiliconAddict
Jul 25, 2005, 02:00 PM
I might not be reading you right, but I'm pretty sure I can just drag and drop coverart into the display window to add it to a song. In fact, when I add a cd, I typically select all its songs, just drag the coverart into the window, and iTunes adds it to all of the songs...

In fact, doesn't the little album artwork window actually say "drag album artwork here" if there isn't any artwork associated with the track?

Yes but there are times when you can't. Or at least I can't. I get a circle with a slash though it. I think it was a circle with a slash through it. At any rate I have to manually go in and add the coverart instead of dragging it onto the window.

SiliconAddict
Jul 25, 2005, 02:15 PM
Hmm. I've used Windows for many years, and I have no idea how to lock down the Registry. Never even heard it mentioned. How does one locate this special incantation?



C:\WINNT\system32\regedt32.exe

instead of regedit.exe

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26752&stc=1

yes I agree. Making the basic changes is easy in regards to firewall/browser/etc. Most users can do this wouldn't any help and frankly should be doing this if they are using windows. Its basic protection when dealing with an unsecured OS.
The things I do to windows beyond that is not easy. In fact if you aren't careful you can lock the OS our from accessing certain files and reg . Most of my services run under alternative credentials and that is well past what most users know how to config. My point is that Windows can be locked down. Its not impossible as long as you know what you are doing.

SiliconAddict
Jul 25, 2005, 02:30 PM
Turn off the wrong ones, and your system is dead.

Actually, it used to be just "the Windows menu". No "Start", just the Windows icon on a button in the lower-right corner. THAT made sense. Everything the average user did to interact with WINDOWS, as opposed to an application running in Windows, started at the Windows menu. But MS focus grouped it and people tended to start Windows 95, see a blank screen with a long gray bar, and have no idea what they were supposed to do next. So, MS marketing monkeys added "Start" and the "<- Click here to start" bouncity text in the empty task bar to "guide" users. Now the focus group folks could get past the shock of seeing an empty screen and knew to click the only button apparent on that screen so that the screen might become un-empty. Success!

All other meanings of "Start" are post-facto rationalizations.

Umm no. Windows 2K and XP will not let you disable critical system services and in fact critical system services do not show up in the GUI. You can only manage those from the command line and some only from the command console outside of Windows.

As for the star button. Windows prior to 9x NEVER had a "button" All they had was a shell with the program manager that had File-options-windows-help along the top that was loaded. You may be thinking of some sort of addin. I still have a 3.11 system setup at home in VPC. I will take a screenshot to prove it if you like.
The first all in one menu started with Windows 95 and that had START on it and that is how its been since then with tweaks to what the start menu has of course. Where did you get your info on the development of "START". I'm just curious that sounds more like an urban legend then what actually happened. But I would like to know nonetheless.

Krazykrl
Jul 25, 2005, 02:41 PM
I don't run X yet.

Enough said. How can you criticize an OS you don't even use?

I use both Mac and Windows daily.

Krazykrl
Jul 25, 2005, 02:43 PM
I might not be reading you right, but I'm pretty sure I can just drag and drop coverart into the display window to add it to a song. In fact, when I add a cd, I typically select all its songs, just drag the coverart into the window, and iTunes adds it to all of the songs...

In fact, doesn't the little album artwork window actually say "drag album artwork here" if there isn't any artwork associated with the track?


Silicon wouldn't know, he doesn't run X.

SiliconAddict
Jul 25, 2005, 03:17 PM
Enough said. How can you criticize an OS you don't even use?

I use both Mac and Windows daily.

I criticize based on what Mac users are saying. If you want bitch me out you better do the same to the rest of the users on the board who are having problems. Spend a few hours on the board and read. And its not as if Iíve NEVER used a Mac. Iíve borrowed a friends iBook while they were on vacation so Iím not as noobish as you to the board.

SiliconAddict
Jul 25, 2005, 03:18 PM
Silicon wouldn't know, he doesn't run X.


I run itunes. That little app that is cross platform ported. Of course that requires....

shamino
Jul 25, 2005, 04:36 PM
Actually, it used to be just "the Windows menu". No "Start", just the Windows icon on a button in the lower-right corner.
I assume you're talking about some Win95 betas, right?

The version of Windows sold prior to Win95 (3.11) had no such concept at all. It used Program Manager and File Manager for doing everything.
But MS focus grouped it and people tended to start Windows 95, see a blank screen with a long gray bar, and have no idea what they were supposed to do next. So, MS marketing monkeys added "Start" and the "<- Click here to start" bouncity text in the empty task bar to "guide" users. Now the focus group folks could get past the shock of seeing an empty screen and knew to click the only button apparent on that screen so that the screen might become un-empty. Success!
Don't discount this. No matter how logical an interface element may be, if users are confused by it, it's no good. If adding the word "start" to the menu can make the system more useable, then it's a good feature, even if one particular task (shutdown) seems counterintuitive.

Or to put it another way, what would you suggest instead? Studies already showed that an un-named icon confused users. (This is also the case on Linux, when the KDE/Gnome menu is an unlabeled icon. How many people instinctively know what an icon of footprints is supposed to mean?)

It's worth noting that Mac OS (up to, but not including OS X) did not put "shutdown" on the Apple menu, but put it in one of the Finder's menu bars.

granex
Jul 25, 2005, 06:35 PM
WARNING: The system contained in this box exposes its users to:

Viruses,
Infections,
Spyware,
Trojans,
Adware,


Looks like a "VISTA" but feels like a "FISTA" :eek:

mkjellman
Jul 25, 2005, 06:54 PM
I run itunes. That little app that is cross platform ported. Of course that requires...

I know of no mac os x setup pre-panther that does not allow you to drag album art into the box....it has ALWAYS worked for me and for many others. last time i checked it was a "port" and a "port" is not iTunes on OS X....which is what you were trying to talk about...

ohh and a little question for you....you say that you have never restarted since January. I was just wondering did you not install service pack 2 or ever have a power outage or install anything that needed a restart? because last time i checked for anyone that really uses a computer they do need to restart within 7 months....




people go to boards to complain. how about the millions of os x users daily. if you don't use something for yourself you can't comment on it. sorry its just not possible. its like a pair of shoes...it may be awesome for one person and sucky for another, there is variation.


millions and millions of people use windows and it works for them. i use it too but you can't argue around the bush. there is no way that any one, not even bill gates could argue this point, that an operating system should have to be "tweaked" for hours to get it to run securely without pop-ups, virus, etc.

security is a big issue for Microsoft, look at the delays with longhorn and sp2. they were all to improve security. i also question how you seem to post so much on os x related items when you don't even run it yourself. OS 9 was abandoned years ago, the same day that jobs came back to apple.

mrsebastian
Jul 25, 2005, 07:00 PM
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... m$ you suck. ok, now that i got that out, wtf!? not that i really care about xp, longhorn, vista, etc...[bleepin] call it shells-n-cheese for all i care, cause it's never getting here, but when it does and only the devil knows when, it's looking more and more that it'll just be a slightly updated version of xp. lol, it'll probably come out and be just like xp with some new desktop pictures, sounds, and maybe updated solitaire.

Lacero
Jul 25, 2005, 07:01 PM
Looks like a "VISTA" but feels like a "FISTA" :eek:And you should know. :p

SiliconAddict
Jul 25, 2005, 09:56 PM
I know of no mac os x setup pre-panther that does not allow you to drag album art into the box....it has ALWAYS worked for me and for many others. last time i checked it was a "port" and a "port" is not iTunes on OS X....which is what you were trying to talk about.

Occasionally you can NOT drag art into the box. Occasionally you get the circle with a line in it as I STATED above in a response. Read the thread before you respond. There are problems in iTunes and how it handles JPG files. It won't take a file but if I open it up in Photoshop and resave it as a new file I can drag it into the window OR, again as I said above, I can manually open the AAC track and add it from there.

SiliconAddict
Jul 25, 2005, 10:23 PM
security is a big issue for Microsoft, look at the delays with longhorn and sp2. they were all to improve security. i also question how you seem to post so much on os x related items when you don't even run it yourself. OS 9 was abandoned years ago, the same day that jobs came back to apple.

Oh maybe because I KNOW computers. I've helped out several people online here on MR with problems they've had on their Mac. I help out people at work who have brought in their Mac's for upgrades. Panther and Tiger. Just because I don't run the OS yet (And that is simply because of the lacking of hardware up til now.) doesn't mean I don't know something about X. Do I know as much as those running it day in and day out? No. Not even close. But I can tell you this much. I know some of the people at the Mall of America Mac store by name because I'm there so often. I live 15 minutes away and I'm pretty much there at least once or twice a week to talk geek with them. So don't blow me off because I don't have the system. If Apple does update the mini tomorrow that will end. When Apple releases a "real" update to the PB line I will be one of the first to order one.
What is funny is you guys are hacking on me because you think I'm defending MS. BS. I stopped defending them 4 years ago. I know how Windows works probably better then most people on this board which is why I've pushed more people to OS X in my office them most of you guys here. To date I've indirectly sold 3 iMacs, 1 PowerMac, a couple iBooks, and about a dozen or so minis to people who come up to me at work and ask. What computer should I get for my kid who is going to college? Can I bring in my computer for you to look at? My computer is slow, what would you recommend? My hard drive has crashed can you save the data, oh and what should I get next? Etc, etc, etc. So people who are attacking me please do me the favor and stuff it. I'm on your side. But I'm not going to pretend that OS X is touched by the hand of God. It isn't perfect. Nor is Windows. Nor is Linux. Nor is BE OS, Amiga OS, DOS, OS/2 Warp, etc. All OS's have their strong points, all OS's have their weaknesses. This is the one thing that I was trying to point out before people starting jumping down my throat. If you think Tiger is so perfect I suggest you run through the any thread about an update that invariably has at least a dozen post about: Oh I hope this fixes X. Or did anyone install it and does it fix Y or speed up Z? No OS on this planet is perfect. Deal with that fact. I'd done petty bickering on this thread. I'm pretty sure the mods are borderline on this thread as it stands. If you can accept that fact fine. If not your loss.

Chaszmyr
Jul 26, 2005, 01:55 PM
A lot of features are a rip off of Mac OS.

There's no one who hates how much Apple gets ripped off more than me, but to be fair, MacOS has borrowed a number of features from Windows over the years too.

Chaszmyr
Jul 26, 2005, 01:59 PM
I would really like it if people would be crying out "Hasta la vista Microsoft" and move over to "Hello Apple". Maybe as an advertising slogan for Apple...

In a more traditional Apple style, when they release OSX 10.5 they could market it with:
"Hasta la Vista, Windows.
Say hello to Leopard."

MikeTheC
Jul 28, 2005, 10:15 PM
Open Services dialog (as an Administrator, of course; if operating as a User need to log out and log in as an Admin). Glance at list. Stare at list. Wait for "unnecessary services" to jump out. Wait until eyes bug out and the list swims in a gray cloud in front of me. Nope, still not apparent exactly which of those I should turn off.

Turn off the wrong ones, and your system is dead. The "right" ones are hardly obvious at all.

This is NOT something a normal user can do, which is about half of the reason why normal users DON'T do it. The other half is that this is something a normal user SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO, and they damned well know it!

It's like buying a new car and the dealer telling you it'll run just great if you open the hood and disconnect the unnecessary wires!



Hmm. I've used Windows for many years, and I have no idea how to lock down the Registry. Never even heard it mentioned. How does one locate this special incantation?



I'd argue quite vehemently that if the user has to jump through these kinds of hoops, is given no official direction on how to get through them, and has to do multiduninous web searches just to know that the hoops themselves exist, not to mention how to jump them, then it most certainly is hard!



Actually, it used to be just "the Windows menu". No "Start", just the Windows icon on a button in the lower-right corner. THAT made sense. Everything the average user did to interact with WINDOWS, as opposed to an application running in Windows, started at the Windows menu. But MS focus grouped it and people tended to start Windows 95, see a blank screen with a long gray bar, and have no idea what they were supposed to do next. So, MS marketing monkeys added "Start" and the "<- Click here to start" bouncity text in the empty task bar to "guide" users. Now the focus group folks could get past the shock of seeing an empty screen and knew to click the only button apparent on that screen so that the screen might become un-empty. Success!

All other meanings of "Start" are post-facto rationalizations.

This makes the point absolutely brilliantly and spot-on. I don't give a rat's *** how secure I can make Windows. I shouldn't have to!!! It's not as though "Oh, gee, ALL OSs just inherently make for hack boxes." Need I even say it on this board: Microsoft is the ONLY OS maker to produce an OS so miserably written that this kind of after-the-fact ****-up fixing is even necessary.