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Ay_Zimmy
Jun 30, 2012, 04:55 PM
Most likely we've all seen or at least heard of the new tablet that Microsoft revealed not too long ago. My dad has the first iPad, and I do enjoy using it to stream Netflix, Optimum television and web browsing, but other than that, it just seems like a huge iPhone to me, especially having the 4 and pretty much all the apps are available on my iPhone device as well. Being an Apple fan, I really can't see myself going out and purchasing a new iPad and getting all the 4G etc.

However, I feel like the new Microsoft Tablet will really strike the market in a new way, and it is nice to see Microsoft back in the mix of things. Microsoft dominated the PC market for quite some time, and with this new tablet, and the keyboard, I feel like they really have found their own edge in taking some of the potential profits from Apple. It just seems like so much more of a laptop replacement than the iPad.

I was wondering what you guys expect from the Windows Tablet, and your opinions and comparison on the details that we have seen so far. For me personally, I used to love Windows computers, and I just dont want to own all Apple products, since a company like Microsoft is sure to offer things Apple can not.

Also, heres a link I found, seems to go in on the software more for anyone interested. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIHuqnBN1CI



darngooddesign
Jun 30, 2012, 05:48 PM
it just seems like a huge iPhone to me...

Well the Surface RT is just a big Windows Phone, but the Surface Pro is a computer.

PrometheusGeek
Jun 30, 2012, 05:52 PM
Ugh. More than two years later and there are still "It's just a giant iPhone" people out there.

I think that if you don't like an iPad and don't see a place for it in your life, that's great. You probably won't see a place for any other tablet in your life either, Windows 8 or whatever. Stick to notebooks for your computing needs. The iPad was never designed to replace a computer. It was designed to be an extension of a computer at best, and a media consumption device. Windows 8 tablets are being designed to replace computers, and so will probably not do as well as iPads, because they won't be able to do better than what they're trying to replace. People will prefer to use their existing notebooks because they work better, cost less and aren't that much less portable.

Ay_Zimmy
Jun 30, 2012, 07:21 PM
Ugh. More than two years later and there are still "It's just a giant iPhone" people out there.

I think that if you don't like an iPad and don't see a place for it in your life, that's great. You probably won't see a place for any other tablet in your life either, Windows 8 or whatever. Stick to notebooks for your computing needs. The iPad was never designed to replace a computer. It was designed to be an extension of a computer at best, and a media consumption device. Windows 8 tablets are being designed to replace computers, and so will probably not do as well as iPads, because they won't be able to do better than what they're trying to replace. People will prefer to use their existing notebooks because they work better, cost less and aren't that much less portable.

Well the first iPad IS practically a large iPhone. But I was saying personally since I have an iPhone. I really want to give the Windows Surface a try since it is more like a tablet and pc combination.. Since using the iPad I see myself using the MacBook less. But I'm excited to see Windows try at it. Never said it wasn't part of my life, and I know it wasn't meant to replace a pc but the windows tablet may do both

Rodster
Jun 30, 2012, 07:26 PM
Well the first iPad IS practically a large iPhone. But I was saying personally since I have an iPhone. I really want to give the Windows Surface a try since it is more like a tablet and pc combination.. Since using the iPad I see myself using the MacBook less. But I'm excited to see Windows try at it. Never said it wasn't part of my life, and I know it wasn't meant to replace a pc but the windows tablet may do both

I'm with ya OP. I'm also excited to see the Microsoft Surface in action. Although i'm going with the Pro version so i'll be waiting a few extra months after the RT is released.

Ay_Zimmy
Jun 30, 2012, 07:38 PM
I'm with ya OP. I'm also excited to see the Microsoft Surface in action. Although i'm going with the Pro version so i'll be waiting a few extra months after the RT is released.

What are the exact differences? If I was to save up for something like this I may as well get the best of it.

Rodster
Jun 30, 2012, 07:47 PM
The Pro has better specs. A USB 3.0 Port, 1080P screen, 64GB or 128GB SSD drive, i5 Ivy Bridge CPU.

Microsoft Surface tablets: the differences between Windows RT and Windows 8 Pro models

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/18/microsoft-surface-tablets-the-differences-between-rt-and-window/

Ay_Zimmy
Jun 30, 2012, 08:05 PM
The Pro has better specs. A USB 3.0 Port, 1080P screen, 64GB or 128GB SSD drive, i5 Ivy Bridge CPU.

Microsoft Surface tablets: the differences between Windows RT and Windows 8 Pro models

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/18/microsoft-surface-tablets-the-differences-between-rt-and-window/

Thanks. They definitely separated the specs more than apple would. Very interesting, word of 4G?

darngooddesign
Jun 30, 2012, 08:30 PM
The pro will suffer from all the problems of a laptop, shorter battery life, heat, cooling fans, etc. You're going to have to carry a power supply with you rather than just a USB cable to charge it. You're giving up a lot of convenience to have the pro, however, you will be getting a more powerful device.

Rodster
Jun 30, 2012, 09:04 PM
Thanks. They definitely separated the specs more than apple would. Very interesting, word of 4G?

Not sure on that one. Microsoft hasn't released all the details on both devices.

IscariotJ
Jul 1, 2012, 04:27 AM
The pro will suffer from all the problems of a laptop, shorter battery life, heat, cooling fans, etc. You're going to have to carry a power supply with you rather than just a USB cable to charge it. You're giving up a lot of convenience to have the pro, however, you will be getting a more powerful device.

It's because of this that I'll probably pick up an RT-based device. I'm interested to see if I can work on it, as I do on my original iPad ( you know, that large iPhone ;) ), especially with one of the keyboards that were also announced.

62tele
Jul 1, 2012, 05:29 AM
Most likely we've all seen or at least heard of the new tablet that Microsoft revealed not too long ago. My dad has the first iPad, and I do enjoy using it to stream Netflix, Optimum television and web browsing, but other than that, it just seems like a huge iPhone to me, especially having the 4 and pretty much all the apps are available on my iPhone device as well. Being an Apple fan, I really can't see myself going out and purchasing a new iPad and getting all the 4G etc.

However, I feel like the new Microsoft Tablet will really strike the market in a new way, and it is nice to see Microsoft back in the mix of things. Microsoft dominated the PC market for quite some time, and with this new tablet, and the keyboard, I feel like they really have found their own edge in taking some of the potential profits from Apple. It just seems like so much more of a laptop replacement than the iPad.

I was wondering what you guys expect from the Windows Tablet, and your opinions and comparison on the details that we have seen so far. For me personally, I used to love Windows computers, and I just dont want to own all Apple products, since a company like Microsoft is sure to offer things Apple can not.

Also, heres a link I found, seems to go in on the software more for anyone interested. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIHuqnBN1CI

I expect another Microsoft POS product that doesn't understand what a tablet should be and misses the mark for most consumers. The fact that MS dominated the PC market has nothing to do with quality, innovation or appeal.

Renzatic
Jul 1, 2012, 05:35 AM
I expect another Microsoft POS product that doesn't understand what a tablet should be and misses the mark for most consumers. The fact that MS dominated the PC market has nothing to do with quality, innovation or appeal.

But the fact that the iPad currently dominates the tablet market has everything to do with quality, innovation, and appeal.

...because I like the iPad.

Hello...
Jul 1, 2012, 05:51 AM
I'm with ya OP. I'm also excited to see the Microsoft Surface in action. Although i'm going with the Pro version so i'll be waiting a few extra months after the RT is released.
I a with you guys on that, love to see one in person.

Rodster
Jul 1, 2012, 07:20 AM
I expect another Microsoft POS product that doesn't understand what a tablet should be and misses the mark for most consumers. The fact that MS dominated the PC market has nothing to do with quality, innovation or appeal.

Oh really? :rolleyes:

That's funny cause all the people in the know as well as the industry techies who have seen it have walked away impressed.

Nevzorus
Jul 1, 2012, 08:57 AM
Please, stop calling it a big iPhone. If YOU have NO clue of what an iPad is, then never even write the name iPad.

Ay_Zimmy
Jul 1, 2012, 09:09 AM
Please, stop calling it a big iPhone. If YOU have NO clue of what an iPad is, then never even write the name iPad.
Useless input.. I know exactly what it is. Doesn't mean it's all that different of an experience than the iPhone. The windows surface tablet is a TOTALLY different experience, and a lot of it has to do with SOFTWARE.

Nevzorus
Jul 1, 2012, 09:14 AM
Useless input.. I know exactly what it is. Doesn't mean it's all that different of an experience than the iPhone. The windows surface tablet is a TOTALLY different experience, and a lot of it has to do with SOFTWARE.

''The Windows Surface Tablet is just a smaller Windows computer''

:)

Rodster
Jul 1, 2012, 09:20 AM
''The Windows Surface Tablet is just a smaller Windows computer''

:)

It's actually a scaled down touch screen ultra-portable with a detachable keyboard. :p

Night Spring
Jul 1, 2012, 09:36 AM
Useless input.. I know exactly what it is. Doesn't mean it's all that different of an experience than the iPhone. The windows surface tablet is a TOTALLY different experience, and a lot of it has to do with SOFTWARE.

If the iPad is just a bigger iPhone, then the Surface RT is just a bigger Windows phone. As for Surface Pro, I suspect it is also a bigger Wondows phone when in Metro mode, and a smaller Windows computer when in desktop mode. And when in desktop mode, I suspect the screen is too small to get much work done. I do admit that a ultra-portable computer I could carry with me everywhere is an attractive idea, but I'd need a full keyboard and monitor to really use it. And then there's the matter of battery life, which Microsoft hasn't mentioned yet. In other words, I'm not sure what kind of eerience the Surface will be, and while yes, software matters, so does hardware -- and there are still many questions about he hardware that have yet ti be answered.

Piggie
Jul 1, 2012, 10:02 AM
What could, and I am saying "Could" and not "Will"
And this would also be the case if Apple made an iPad pro with optional pull away keyboard that could run iOS or OSX.

As tech moves forward, prices come down etc etc.

One could see a time whem many people, faced with their old Windows laptop needing to be replaced, go to the store and think, hey, why not get a "Surface" tablet/laptop instead as this will do both things for me, why pay out for a Tablet AND a Laptop when I can have just the one thing to carry with me.

If this happens, at time goes on it could totally change the Windows laptop market.

Whether this will happen, who knows, but there is no reason why it can't happen this way over say a 5 year period.

Rodster
Jul 1, 2012, 10:10 AM
What could, and I am saying "Could" and not "Will"
And this would also be the case if Apple made an iPad pro with optional pull away keyboard that could run iOS or OSX.

As tech moves forward, prices come down etc etc.

One could see a time whem many people, faced with their old Windows laptop needing to be replaced, go to the store and think, hey, why not get a "Surface" tablet/laptop instead as this will do both things for me, why pay out for a Tablet AND a Laptop when I can have just the one thing to carry with me.

If this happens, at time goes on it could totally change the Windows laptop market.

Whether this will happen, who knows, but there is no reason why it can't happen this way over say a 5 year period.

I can't see the above happening as long as they sell the MacBook Air. If the MBA had a detachable keyboard and touch screen it's basically what asked for.

Mainsail
Jul 1, 2012, 10:25 AM
I am happy to see Microsoft jump into the tablet biz. Apple needs to be pushed, and right now the competition is pretty weak. That said, I am confused about how the Pro model will fit into most peoples use. It is trying to be both a tablet and a pc, but tablets really operate best with a touch interface and operating system. I have difficulty imagining using my iPad with pc operating system. I have tried it using virtual connection, and it is very awkward. Maybe Windows 8 magically solves these interface issues....but, I am skeptical because the problems are really ergonomic.

I think you will end up with a bulky tablet and an awkward laptop merged together into a somewhat dissatisfying experience. For example, that kickstand will not work in your lap. Of course, people said the iPad wouldn't catch on, so I could be wrong about the Pro.

Rodster
Jul 1, 2012, 10:29 AM
I am happy to see Microsoft jump into the tablet biz. Apple needs to be pushed, and right now the competition is pretty weak. That said, I am confused about how the Pro model will fit into most peoples use. It is trying to be both a tablet and a pc, but tablets really operate best with a touch interface and operating system. I have difficulty imagining using my iPad with pc operating system. I have tried it using virtual connection, and it is very awkward. Maybe Windows 8 magically solves these interface issues....but, I am skeptical because the problems are really ergonomic.

I think you will end up with a bulky tablet and an awkward laptop merged together into a somewhat dissatisfying experience. For example, that kickstand will not work in your lap. Of course, people said the iPad wouldn't catch on, so I could be wrong about the Pro.

Except that Windows 8 is a new UI designed around touch screens. I plan on using the Pro model, like I would a PC when i'm at home. When i'm out and about i'll use it as a Tablet.

ucfgrad93
Jul 1, 2012, 10:32 AM
I a with you guys on that, love to see one in person.

Agreed. I would like to see it in person as well. I also wonder about the pricing.

Piggie
Jul 1, 2012, 10:37 AM
I can't see the above happening as long as they sell the MacBook Air. If the MBA had a detachable keyboard and touch screen it's basically what asked for.

Indeed, and trust me on this one.

If Apple HAD of created a tablet such as the iPad, and clip on a magnetic keyboard/trackpad along the lines of the Msoft Surface one, and then the iPad could go into OSX mode and be like a mackbook air, many would jump up and down as if it's the ideal product.

Why buy and carry two devices, it's not like they are separate things, like a Gun and a Camera.
They are both oblong shaped computer, one with and one without a fixed keyboard.

Apart from speed/battery life/size & weight, there is no reason to want to buy and carry two separate items.

s15119
Jul 1, 2012, 10:38 AM
I don't think the 7 inch tablet fad is going to last long. It's just not a good size. Size wise, the iPad nailed it.

Ay_Zimmy
Jul 1, 2012, 10:46 AM
Indeed, and trust me on this one.

If Apple HAD of created a tablet such as the iPad, and clip on a magnetic keyboard/trackpad along the lines of the Msoft Surface one, and then the iPad could go into OSX mode and be like a mackbook air, many would jump up and down as if it's the ideal product.

Why buy and carry two devices, it's not like they are separate things, like a Gun and a Camera.
They are both oblong shaped computer, one with and one without a fixed keyboard.

Apart from speed/battery life/size & weight, there is no reason to want to buy and carry two separate items.

This is a good point. Everyone here would be saying how amazing it is.


Also, I get the windows surface will be like the phone but it's not as comparable as the iPad to the phone. It has USB ports etc, way more like a laptop tablet than a huge windows phone. And I already have an iPhone and that's why I'm going for the surface, if I had a windows phone it probably would have been vice versa.

Fattytail
Jul 1, 2012, 10:46 AM
Microsoft faces two big problems with Surface.

1) Surface RT can't run legacy Windows apps and the number of apps available for the touch Windows 8 UI will be extremely small. If they can't gain momentum with app developers, Surface RT will be essentially useless.

2) Surface Pro will suffer from all of the same problems as a conventional laptop. It'll run hot and battery life will be short. We're not technologically at the point where a desktop OS can be shoehorned into a tablet form factor without making serious compromises. By the time we get to that point, my guess is that the desktop OS X and iOS will be interoperable

Piggie
Jul 1, 2012, 10:47 AM
I don't think the 7 inch tablet fad is going to last long. It's just not a good size. Size wise, the iPad nailed it.

It really depends what you wish to do with a device and how you intend physically use it.

I'm sure you can imagine many times, esp in business, factories, retail, medical, anything on the move, where it would be very advantageous to have a device, like a phone you can hold in one hand comfortably whilst leaving the other hand free, to say, move paper around, lift items up to check them, move things to one side, perhaps even pick item up to check them etc etc.

An iPad is not really light enough or suitable enough size wise to be carried and used comfortably in one hand. Yes, you can hold it in one hand but it's not really designed in that way.

If I want a 7" device or not is not the point. I can see many scenarios where is would br more practical to do so.

rowspaxe
Jul 1, 2012, 11:10 AM
i think there is a market for surface pro, a full x86 computer with tablet form factor and wacom digitizer. Much is made of the fact this hasn't sold well before, but the hardware technology and os implementations have made an exceptional leap in the last year. Check out the user comments on amazon for the samsung slate 7, which is still running a desktop os. The market for this type of product will draw on current laptop and tablet users. So the question will be answered: does ios plus apps provide the magical experience everyone wants, or is it something people are dealing with in lieu of a fully realized tablet computer? I think surface pro will be huge hit and the age of the tablet "consumption" device with limited os's draw to a close. Obviously smartphones will continue to thrive, and i see no real destinction between phones and 7" tablets.

Rodster
Jul 1, 2012, 11:19 AM
Microsoft faces two big problems with Surface.

1) Surface RT can't run legacy Windows apps and the number of apps available for the touch Windows 8 UI will be extremely small. If they can't gain momentum with app developers, Surface RT will be essentially useless.

2) Surface Pro will suffer from all of the same problems as a conventional laptop. It'll run hot and battery life will be short.

First of from what i've read the Surface Pro is designed around a unique cooling system. They are targeting battery performance with that of the MBA or other ultra portables. We'll see if they get close.

Also the Surface Pro will be able to run Windows based programs along with Metro Based Apps, hence the 64 or 128GB SSD options. Microsoft Office is preloaded with the Pro model.

Piggie
Jul 1, 2012, 11:35 AM
Again, this is nothing that time won't fix.

Surface pro, in many years to come will be looked back on as Mk1 of perhaps a long line of devices, just like we look back at say an early Apple Laptop and compare it to a current model.

Such as this: http://i.haymarket.net.au/news/mac_portable.jpg

An this horrid looking item: http://www.ibookguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/ibook_clamshell.jpg

Tech and design have moved forward a lot.

There is no reason to think that in X years time something the size of the current iPad would not be running Windows 11 perfectly, for example.

Ay_Zimmy
Jul 1, 2012, 02:14 PM
Again, this is nothing that time won't fix.

Surface pro, in many years to come will be looked back on as Mk1 of perhaps a long line of devices, just like we look back at say an early Apple Laptop and compare it to a current model.

Such as this: http://i.haymarket.net.au/news/mac_portable.jpg

An this horrid looking item: http://www.ibookguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/ibook_clamshell.jpg

Tech and design have moved forward a lot.

There is no reason to think that in X years time something the size of the current iPad would not be running Windows 11 perfectly, for example.

Holy smokes the second one is god awful.. And yeah the iPad is only at its 3rd, computers and laptops have been around for decades. We have no idea what these products are going to be like in decades to come.

Anyways, Microsoft has been working on this tablet for awhile obviously, and they are playing it very smart as well. I just think it would be stupid to count out Microsoft in this. This is something that is down their alley, unlike the Zune that was cool for a week. Microsoft has a boat load of partnerships and office and all that good stuff, many perks Apple doesn't have, and Google just can't do it right. All I'm saying since I have an iPhone and a Macbook, I rather go for a Windows based product that relates most to the iPad. I personally don't want to ONLY own all Apple products, other companies have quality things to offer and I think Windows and the tablet is something that finally interests me other than Apple. It would be cool learning the software and all that good stuff. Microsoft knows how to play the game too, and this might be a Windows breakthrough for them.

Rodster
Jul 1, 2012, 02:29 PM
I personally don't want to ONLY own all Apple products, other companies have quality things to offer and I think Windows and the tablet is something that finally interests me other than Apple. It would be cool learning the software and all that good stuff. Microsoft knows how to play the game too, and this might be a Windows breakthrough for them.

Good for you !

Think Different :apple:

ManicMarc
Jul 1, 2012, 02:31 PM
I am really excited by the Surface. The thought of having a tablet one moment, then docking it the next and using as a desktop PC sounds great. As long as it's a tablet first (e.g. long battery, low heat, instant-on, always connected) I think it's a winner.

The Surface RT looks like the iPad competitor to me, while the Pro looks like a Macbook Air competitor. Good on Microsoft (at last!)

Night Spring
Jul 1, 2012, 02:37 PM
There is no reason to think that in X years time something the size of the current iPad would not be running Windows 11 perfectly, for example.

I totally think this is what will happen, eventually. And Microsoft and Apple are offering contrasting philosophies of what to do untl the hardware tech gets there. Microsoft wants to give us devices like Surface Pro that tries to be a combination laptop/tablet today, even though the hardware isn't quite there to carry it off. Apple will wait until the hardware tech is there to give us the best combo laptop/tablet, and until then, they will give us the best tablet and the best laptop they can make. I feel that if Apple stays true to form, we will have the repeat of what happened with mp3 players. Many companies used to make mp3 players, but they were clumsy and hard to use. Apple came in and made the iPod. And blew everyone away. When Apple finally makes a tablet/laptop hybrid, they may do so later than everyone, but they will do it the best way. Or at least, that is what would happen under Steve Jobs. We'll see if Tim Cook and co can keep it up.


I am really excited by the Surface. The thought of having a tablet one moment, then docking it the next and using as a desktop PC sounds great. As long as it's a tablet first (e.g. long battery, low heat, instant-on, always connected) I think it's a winner.

This was my first thought when I first followed Microsoft's announcement, but the more I thought about it, the less convinced I became. The fact that Microsoft hasn't announced battery life is very concerning. Plus, working with desktop applications when the Surface is in tablet mode is a no-go, because the apps aren't designed for touch interface, and 10inch is not enough screen space. Ideally, what should happen is that, for instance, apps should run in Metro mode when working in tablet mode, and in desktop mode when being used as a desktop. But from what I've seen of Windows 8, that's not how it is designed. For instance, there are two versions of Internet Explorer, one Metro and one desktop. And i think they should be one app with two modes -- but no, they are two separate apps. That does not bode well -- it is a fundamental misstep, IMO, in the conceptualization of how tablet and laptop modes should relate to each other.


The Surface RT looks like the iPad competitor to me, while the Pro looks like a Macbook Air competitor. Good on Microsoft (at last!)

I'm sure that is what Microsoft envisions, but for RT to be a true iPad competitor, its app market will have to take off. And for Pro to be an Air competitor, well, looked at as a laptop, the Pro is just a netbook. I haven't seen any evidence yet that it will be easier to use than the 10inch netbooks, and I feel there's a good chance it'll be harder to use than a netbook -- that kickstand and keyboard cover combo sure looks like it takes a lot of flat surface to lay it out.

Piggie
Jul 1, 2012, 03:23 PM
Holy smokes the second one is god awful..

Some more for you:

Official launch:
Everyone going nuts and cheering as per normal:

http://youtu.be/cdpRSj7tLiY

rowspaxe
Jul 1, 2012, 03:40 PM
Interesting that no one has mentioned the digitizing pen. i think the pen interface will spur win8 adaption in student and designer markets and this will in turn drive mind share in the total market. A textbook reader with true mark up functionality will be huge. Add a keyboard cover and you have an incredible necleus of functionality. Ironically, by embracing retina and its hardware overhead, apple has nearly leveled the playing field with surface in terms of weight.
Also, the kickstand seems ungainly untill you see it next to an ipad with a rolled up smart cover.

TSE
Jul 1, 2012, 03:46 PM
What the Pro model needs to be successful:

1. Atleast a 8 hour realistic battery life

2. No fans

What the RT model needs to be successful:

1. A good App store

2. Microsoft Office integration

3. Lower price than an iPad unless it offers something substantial.

4. Something the Nexus Tablet can't do.

Night Spring
Jul 1, 2012, 03:54 PM
Interesting that no one has mentioned the digitizing pen. i think the pen interface will spur win8 adaption in student and designer markets and this will in turn drive mind share in the total market. A textbook reader with true mark up functionality will be huge. Add a keyboard cover and you have an incredible necleus of functionality. Ironically, by embracing retina and its hardware overhead, apple has nearly leveled the playing field with surface in terms of weight.
Also, the kickstand seems ungainly untill you see it next to an ipad with a rolled up smart cover.

Oh yes, totally forgot about the pen, thanks for the reminder. I agree that pen does seem cool in concept. I especially like that we'll be able to rest our palm on the tablet as we write. Will be very interesting to see how well it works in real life.

As for kickstand vs smart cover, yes, the kickstand probably works better on a flat surface. But what about not very flat surfaces, like knees and pillows? I know from experience that a rolled-up smart cover does pretty well on my knee. I'm not sure about the kickstand. We'll have to see how it does when it's released -- which reminds me, the RT is to be released along with Windows 8, so sometime this fall. The Pro is three months after that, so at the earliest, December 2012, more likely early 2013. By that time, iPad 4 will be around the corner, and personally, I'd wait for Apple to announce the 4 before making any purchasing decisions. IMO, it's not very smart of Microsoft to pre announce the Surface so early, gives Apple plenty of time to implement counter-moves, if any are needed.

Piggie
Jul 1, 2012, 04:03 PM
What the Pro model needs to be successful:

1. Atleast a 8 hour realistic battery life

2. No fans

What the RT model needs to be successful:

1. A good App store

2. Microsoft Office integration

3. Lower price than an iPad unless it offers something substantial.

4. Something the Nexus Tablet can't do.

Is the macbook air a failure as it has a silent fan inside?

Why would the RT model need a lower price. It's not trying to be a cheap lower spec alternative to an iPad

TSE
Jul 1, 2012, 04:09 PM
Is the macbook air a failure as it has a silent fan inside?

Why would the RT model need a lower price. It's not trying to be a cheap lower spec alternative to an iPad

The MacBook Air is not a tablet. At the very least the Pro tablet should have a completely silent fan.

Unless the RT model has some substantial features the iPad doesn't have, why would anyone buy it if it is just as much as the iPad? The iPad basically owns the premium tablet market right now.

Rodster
Jul 1, 2012, 04:22 PM
According to this presentation The Surface won't use a fan to keep it running cool. It uses a unique cooling system called "Perimeter Venting". :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep9bem6O9r4

ManicMarc
Jul 1, 2012, 04:23 PM
What the Pro model needs to be successful:

1. Atleast a 8 hour realistic battery life

2. No fans



There are no fans. Rumors have it that the Pro will use a new Intel chipset (that's the reason for the 3 month delay) so we can hope that means decent battery life.


What the RT model needs to be successful:

1. A good App store

2. Microsoft Office integration



Windows RT comes with Office on the Desktop. The selection of apps isn't a big deal for me, what I think matters is to have this months "hot app" in your store. When someone says "Hey have you seen this cool app" you don't want to be disappointed. That would have been "Draw Something" 2 months ago. Whether there is 5,000 or 50,000 apps in total makes little difference really.

johndallas999
Jul 1, 2012, 04:40 PM
Ugh. More than two years later and there are still "It's just a giant iPhone" people out there.

I think that if you don't like an iPad and don't see a place for it in your life, that's great. You probably won't see a place for any other tablet in your life either, Windows 8 or whatever. Stick to notebooks for your computing needs. The iPad was never designed to replace a computer. It was designed to be an extension of a computer at best, and a media consumption device. Windows 8 tablets are being designed to replace computers, and so will probably not do as well as iPads, because they won't be able to do better than what they're trying to replace. People will prefer to use their existing notebooks because they work better, cost less and aren't that much less portable.

Ugh, I hate the term "Media Consumption". Such an over used term and so cheezy.

Rodster
Jul 1, 2012, 04:47 PM
Ugh, I hate the term "Media Consumption". Such an over used term and so cheezy.

Agreed ! :)

They can also take the phrases 'surfing the web' and 'content' with them.

Piggie
Jul 1, 2012, 05:04 PM
Unless the RT model has some substantial features the iPad doesn't have, why would anyone buy it if it is just as much as the iPad? The iPad basically owns the premium tablet market right now.

Because, And I know this is hard concept to grasp, some people just don't want to use Apple with their tie downs.

I have an iPad, and have to put up with horrid iTunes.

I would rather not own anything apple if I can find good alternatives, so I'm waiting to see what these ones are before I spend more money

irnchriz
Jul 1, 2012, 05:11 PM
It really depends what you wish to do with a device and how you intend physically use it.

I'm sure you can imagine many times, esp in business, factories, retail, medical, anything on the move, where it would be very advantageous to have a device, like a phone you can hold in one hand comfortably whilst leaving the other hand free, to say, move paper around, lift items up to check them, move things to one side, perhaps even pick item up to check them etc etc.

An iPad is not really light enough or suitable enough size wise to be carried and used comfortably in one hand. Yes, you can hold it in one hand but it's not really designed in that way.

If I want a 7" device or not is not the point. I can see many scenarios where is would br more practical to do so.

What complete and utter tosh. It's similar in size to a clipboard which have been used in your example jobs for decades.

It's designed to be held in one or two hands. You can prop the bottom up against yourself at a reasonable distance and still easily manipulate the screen and read it.

As to being too heavy, I think that some of you guys need to get a can of 'man up'.

Night Spring
Jul 1, 2012, 05:24 PM
What complete and utter tosh. It's similar in size to a clipboard which have been used in your example jobs for decades.

It's designed to be held in one or two hands. You can prop the bottom up against yourself at a reasonable distance and still easily manipulate the screen and read it.

As to being too heavy, I think that some of you guys need to get a can of 'man up'.

I agree that the size is not a problem, but the weight could be lighter. For many of us, "manning up" is not an option -- people may have disabilities, may be just naturally not so muscular, may already be carrying a lot of other stuff and every ounce counts, etc.

That said, I personally don't think I'd use a 7 inch tablet, for me the trade off of larger screen size is worth the extra weight.

Carouser
Jul 1, 2012, 06:08 PM
I'm sure you can imagine many times, esp in business, factories, retail, medical, anything on the move, where it would be very advantageous to have a device, like a phone you can hold in one hand comfortably whilst leaving the other hand free, to say, move paper around, lift items up to check them, move things to one side, perhaps even pick item up to check them etc etc.

a device, like a phone

Like a phone, you say? If only Apple made such a product, perhaps they could even have their retail staff use it for sales and customer support, instead of lugging around iPads as they currently do.

***

I'd love to hear specific examples of situations where an iPad is too big, and a 3.5" screen is too small, but a 7" device is just right, coupled with an argument about how it would be profitable for Apple to produce and sell such a device, and profitable for said industry to invest in that device instead of a simpler or a custom alternative. That would be much better than these endless vague lists where "I'm sure you can imagine really good examples which support what I'm hand-waving about".

EDIT: Like if someone else who actually works in health care IT could explain why there is zero demand for a 7" screen when there are already networked terminals, laptops, iPads, and smartphones available and in-use by medical professionals.

rowspaxe
Jul 1, 2012, 06:13 PM
IMO, it's not very smart of Microsoft to pre announce the Surface so early, gives Apple plenty of time to implement counter-moves, if any are needed.

I think the timing of the surface launch was driven by win 8's desktop driven media beat down. Suddenly the "vista 2" meme evaporated. That and nexus 7, I guess

That said, surface RT is almost certainly an instant flop. The only question is whether it will pull surface Pro down with it. A lot is made of the apple ecosystem, but remember surface pro will run itunes, so the only loss will be on the app side, where the MS store will take a couple of years to mature. But I will gladly trade apps for real software, saving to a real file system. Imagine Reason and Sketchbook pro on a tablet, multiitasking with resizable windows? Bring-it-on.

Redjericho
Jul 1, 2012, 06:14 PM
Microsoft always has my money for their windows updates for my PC, but when it comes to tablets and mobile, it all belongs to apple.

62tele
Jul 1, 2012, 06:46 PM
[Piggie: "I would rather not own anything apple "]

Gee, the rest of the forum is so shocked. I wonder why you come here with your absolute bias.

Regardless, the Microsoft tablet will appeal to a segment of the market. That segment will not be the mainstream consumer. People really don't care about Microsoft products per se. They live with Microsoft because it is the default OS for most desktops/laptops. The consumer is now much more accustomed to Android and iOS mobile platforms as alternatives. The tablet is a mobile device. Windows is so yesteryear. I still don't think Microsoft gets it.

Rodster
Jul 1, 2012, 06:58 PM
The consumer is now much more accustomed to Android and iOS mobile platforms as alternatives. The tablet is a mobile device. Windows is so yesteryear. I still don't think Microsoft gets it.

I gotta disagree, I think they do get IT. Windows 8 is using a brand new UI which is designed around touch screens. The question is if MS did a nice job with the UI and how well it integrates with The Surface. If it's a seamless experience then hats off to them.

But i'm pretty impressed they thought outside the box. I use the Metro UI on my Xbox 360 and I like the design. I haven't had a chance to mess with Windows 8 but i'm looking forward to the final product.

racer1441
Jul 1, 2012, 07:19 PM
The Microsoft tablets will be non starters. They will either be cheap and buggy or very expensive.

When you can't even get the device to not hang up during the presentation, you are going to have problems.

Renzatic
Jul 1, 2012, 07:26 PM
When you can't even get the device to not hang up during the presentation, you are going to have problems.

As has been said a thousand billion trillion times beforehand, what you're looking at is beta software running on prototype hardware. It happens to everyone, including Apple.

darngooddesign
Jul 1, 2012, 07:32 PM
It's because of this that I'll probably pick up an RT-based device. I'm interested to see if I can work on it, as I do on my original iPad ( you know, that large iPhone ;) ), especially with one of the keyboards that were also announced.

Enjoy your large Windows Phone. ;)

Night Spring
Jul 1, 2012, 07:33 PM
I think the timing of the surface launch was driven by win 8's desktop driven media beat down. Suddenly the "vista 2" meme evaporated. That and nexus 7, I guess

It's true that Win 8 suddenly made much more sense when I imagined it on a Surface Pro.

That said, surface RT is almost certainly an instant flop. The only question is whether it will pull surface Pro down with it.

And the fact that Surface Pro won't launch until three months after Surface RT won't help the situation. If Surface RT flops hard, then it might be too late when the Pro finally arrives.

A lot is made of the apple ecosystem, but remember surface pro will run itunes, so the only loss will be on the app side, where the MS store will take a couple of years to mature. But I will gladly trade apps for real software, saving to a real file system. Imagine Reason and Sketchbook pro on a tablet, multiitasking with resizable windows? Bring-it-on.

Desktop iTunes on a 10-inch screen? Noooooooo, I know *I* don't want to use that! You don't have to imagine anything, just VPN to a Windows machine from an iPad, and that's what you'll get on a Surface Pro. Granted it'd run smoother on a Pro because you won't get the lag from being on a VPN, but the problem with using resizable windows on a small screen is that the screen is, you know, small. Even on my 13-inch Air, I tend to run all apps full screen and almost never use them windowed. If I need to do side-by-side document comparisons, I attach an external monitor. Which yes, you can do with a Surface Pro, and that is the one aspect of that machine that I do find exciting -- have a full Windows computer that is the size of a tablet. But if choosing between a Surface Pro and Air, I think I'd stick with the Air for now, for those times when I don't have access to an external monitor. Maybe if they come out with a 13-inch Surface... but that would really be more of a laptop than a tablet, wouldn't it?

gnasher729
Jul 1, 2012, 07:39 PM
Oh really? :rolleyes:

That's funny cause all the people in the know as well as the industry techies who have seen it have walked away impressed.

After they tried it "hands on" - sorry, they didn't actually try it. They were allowed to touch it, and Microsoft called that "hands on".

No "industry techy" has so far had a Windows 8 tablet in their hands and used it. There is also no price released so far.

Renzatic
Jul 1, 2012, 07:49 PM
And the fact that Surface Pro won't launch until three months after Surface RT won't help the situation. If Surface RT flops hard, then it might be too late when the Pro finally arrives.

Truthfully, I think of WindowsRT as MS' safety bet. The Surface Pro is what they've imagined the future of tablets to be. A full featured laptop you can carry around in your hand. It's gotten the most attention, the most praise, and the most coverage.

The RT? It's just there, in an "oh...and we also have this", sorta way. I think it's something for MS to hedge it's bets on in case ARM does end up being the future everyone prefers for their tablets. Something for them to fall back on.

Maybe if they come out with a 13-inch Surface... but that would really be more of a laptop than a tablet, wouldn't it?

It'd be a really large tablet. :P

racer1441
Jul 1, 2012, 07:58 PM
As has been said a thousand billion trillion times beforehand, what you're looking at is beta software running on prototype hardware. It happens to everyone, including Apple.

Its not beta software, Windows 8 is in release preview, which means it's far beyond 'beta'.

Night Spring
Jul 1, 2012, 08:03 PM
Truthfully, I think of WindowsRT as MS' safety bet. The Surface Pro is what they've imagined the future of tablets to be. A full featured laptop you can carry around in your hand. It's gotten the most attention, the most praise, and the most coverage.

Yes, exactly.

The RT? It's just there, in an "oh...and we also have this", sorta way. I think it's something for MS to hedge it's bets on in case ARM does end up being the future everyone prefers for their tablets. Something for them to fall back on.

Except... most users don't pick a tablet based on whether it uses ARM or Intel, they just pick a tablet for what it can do, and of course price is a factor for many people. I'm not really familiar with the differences in CPU artchitecture, but it seems that current ARM chips are not powerful enough to run full desktop systems, but are superior at power conservation. So whomever comes up first with a CPU that can run desktop system while having low power consumption, that's where the future will be, and unless you are an Intel or ARM shareholder, who cares which one gets there first? And when that CPU finally gets here, then wouldn't both Microsoft and Apple have to adjust their OS to run on that chip?

It'd be a really large tablet. :P

Heh. But seriously, prop up a 13-inch Surface with that kickstand, and put a keyboard cover in front of it, and it's screaming "laptop" to me.

rowspaxe
Jul 1, 2012, 08:10 PM
Its not beta software, Windows 8 is in release preview, which means it's far beyond 'beta'.

actually, windows 8 pre-releases have been running on samsung slates for over 6 months. I imagine surface will run much like a slate 7, which is very good indeed.

----------

Desktop iTunes on a 10-inch screen? Noooooooo, I know *I* don't want to use that!

fair enough, but can we all agree to hate ipads you tube implementation? I must be super retro, but i really like floating windows, even on a tablet like the samsung 7. It requires the pen, though. And yes, i do run itunes!!

Night Spring
Jul 1, 2012, 08:19 PM
fair enough, but can we all agree to hate ipads you tube implementation? I must be super retro, but i really like floating windows, even on a tablet like the samsung 7. It requires the pen, though. And yes, i do run itunes!!

Um, what's wrong with Youtube on iPad? :p

Frankly, I don't use Youtube enough to have an opinon one way or the other. As for floating windows, to each their own, I suppose. Like I said, personally, I don't like windows even on a 13-inch screen, but I understand other people do want that.

I really liked the music player they had on iPad with iOS 4. It was like a mini-iTunes, and with the addition of a few more functionality, it could be a good implementation of iTunes on a tablet. Unfortunately, they went for a less desktop-like, more graphics oriented implementation in iOS 5, and with less functionality. *sob*

Renzatic
Jul 1, 2012, 09:33 PM
Except... most users don't pick a tablet based on whether it uses ARM or Intel, they just pick a tablet for what it can do, and of course price is a factor for many people. I'm not really familiar with the differences in CPU artchitecture, but it seems that current ARM chips are not powerful enough to run full desktop systems, but are superior at power conservation. So whomever comes up first with a CPU that can run desktop system while having low power consumption, that's where the future will be, and unless you are an Intel or ARM shareholder, who cares which one gets there first?

Pretty much. A CPU is a CPU. If you've got an ARM processor that's as powerful as an i5, and lasts just as long on a charge, then what's the difference? Architecture aside, they're both exactly the same for all intents and purposes. Photoshop ARM will work exactly like Photoshop x86. Why choose one over the other?

Heh. But seriously, prop up a 13-inch Surface with that kickstand, and put a keyboard cover in front of it, and it's screaming "laptop" to me.

Depends on how you use it. If you're going to be using it on a desk 99% of the time, then just get a proper laptop. The Surface doesn't offer you any real advantages here. But if you're going to be doing a ton of work with Photoshop, CAD, Zbrush, and whatnot, you can always pick it up, lay it against your forearm, and dab away at it with the stylus.

It all comes down to what you intend on doing with it. Writing a document, doing some artwork, or reading a book in bed. The Surface Pro seems to able to do it all really well (seems to being the key word here), which is what makes it such an interesting device.

rowspaxe
Jul 1, 2012, 09:44 PM
A CPU is a CPU. If you've got an ARM processor that's as powerful as an i5, and lasts just as long on a charge, then what's the difference? Architecture aside, they're both exactly the same for all intents and purposes. Photoshop ARM will work exactly like Photoshop x86. Why choose one over the other?.

This overlooks the fact that photoshop and other leading softwares are not currently compiled to run on arm. the surface RT tab will run office--but only because ms is doing a custom release to support their product. You will not be able to run any other windows programs on surface RT.

A thirteen inch tablet--properly designed--would be awesome. If you read technical pdf's or textbooks, the ipad is too small. Also, a 13" with an active digitizer sounds like a winner. Looking further ahead, how long until desktop computers are transformed by touch and pen. Hint, the future will look nothing like HP all in one's!

Renzatic
Jul 1, 2012, 10:01 PM
This overlooks the fact that photoshop and other leading softwares are not currently compiled to run on arm. the surface RT tab will run office--but only because ms is doing a custom release to support their product. You will not be able to run any other windows programs on surface RT.

Yup, but we're talking about the future here. If ARM does eventually end up getting powerful enough to start matching Intel processors in performance, I'm sure we'll see an ARM compiled rev of PS sooner or later.

A thirteen inch tablet--properly designed--would be awesome. If you read technical pdf's or textbooks, the ipad is too small. Also, a 13" with an active digitizer sounds like a winner. Looking further ahead, how long until desktop computers are transformed by touch and pen. Hint, the future will look nothing like HP all in one's!

If you ask me, desktops will look something like the big screen Cintiqs. If you want to draw on it, just pull the screen towards you. Write a document or watch a movie? Push it back. It's pretty much where all this neat tech we've been seeing recently is leading us to.

The only thing that'll suck about it is mounting the swivel arms to your desk. Hope you have a cheap little $100 Ikea or something, cuz drilling all those screws into an expensive desk will kinda blow a bit.

Night Spring
Jul 1, 2012, 10:16 PM
The only thing that'll suck about it is mounting the swivel arms to your desk. Hope you have a cheap little $100 Ikea or something, cuz drilling all those screws into an expensive desk will kinda blow a bit.

This really is the biggest piece of the puzzle in making touch screen desktops a reality. We tried an HP touch screen all in one desktop once, but after a few days, we were using it just as a regular desktop. As Steve Jobs said, vertical surfaces don't make a good touch screen, but how to make a surface that can tilt from horizontal to vertical? Preferably without everyone having to buy new furniture! Whoever solves this problem will make a tidy fortune, if they market it right.

Sinikal45
Jul 1, 2012, 10:55 PM
I am totally against tech companies trying to make tablets into desktop computers. I like what the iPad did. It's simple and easy. Never having to worry about installation, compatibility, blue screen(crash), virus's, overheating and other issues that come along with most PC's is what I WANT. I can really do A LOT with my iPad while it stays in its lane.

This surface RT looks awesome but is that what you want? Do you really want to Program, 3D Model, Graphic Design and perform other task on your tablet?? I dunno?? My personal opinion regarding the overall objective of Microsoft worries me...

PhoneI
Jul 1, 2012, 11:07 PM
Oh really? :rolleyes:

That's funny cause all the people in the know as well as the industry techies who have seen it have walked away impressed.

yet none of them have touched it.

----------

If you read technical pdf's or textbooks, the ipad is too small.

I guess I didn't get the memo. I've been reading technical pdf's on my iPad for years.

racer1441
Jul 1, 2012, 11:21 PM
yet none of them have touched its.

that's a big thing as well. No one has ever touched the thing. Apple's new stuff from WWDC was available that day. Google's tablet already has hands on reviews and a ship date. As of now, the Microsoft tablet is vapeware until we see more.

Ay_Zimmy
Jul 1, 2012, 11:45 PM
I am totally against tech companies trying to make tablets into desktop computers. I like what the iPad did. It's simple and easy. Never having to worry about installation, compatibility, blue screen(crash), virus's, overheating and other issues that come along with most PC's is what I WANT. I can really do A LOT with my iPad while it stays in its lane.

This surface RT looks awesome but is that what you want? Do you really want to Program, 3D Model, Graphic Design and perform other task on your tablet?? I dunno?? My personal opinion regarding the overall objective of Microsoft worries me...

Well exactly. I love the simplicity of the iPhone. But when I'm on my iPad I just wish I could do more. I don't know what exactly lol.. But maybe you get what I mean. But having the iPad 1 i still don't think any are worth the upgrade since I just browse the web and stream Netflix. The Window Surface will at least let me explore something new. Your right thouh, it won't be an Apple experience, but that doesn't mean it won't be an enjoyable tablet of as well. It could be Microsoft getting something right and a lot of doubters.

Night Spring
Jul 1, 2012, 11:47 PM
I guess I didn't get the memo. I've been reading technical pdf's on my iPad for years.

Depends on how good your eyesight is, I guess. Most PDFs are formatted to represent a letter/A4 size page, so on the iPad, this is displayed slightly smaller than intended. For some people, including myself, the shrunken size may be a problem, while for others, it's not.

Rodster
Jul 1, 2012, 11:48 PM
yet none of them have touched it.

Yeah too bad no one has touched one. :p

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6016/microsoft-surface-we-go-hands-on
"Post-announcement, Microsoft took us to a backroom in Milk Studios to give us hands on experience with the Surface. They weren't lying, even the preproduction units feel awesome in hand."

Microsoft Surface - We Go Hands On [UPDATE: Detailed Impressions]

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6016/_DSC8177_575px.JPG

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6016/_DSC8202_575px.JPG

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6016/CAM00012[1]_575px.jpg

Night Spring
Jul 1, 2012, 11:58 PM
Yeah too bad no one has touched one. :p

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6016/microsoft-surface-we-go-hands-on


Yes, people *touched* them, but were they able to use it?

http://marketingland.com/hands-off-microsoft-surface-tablet-review-15146

Ay_Zimmy
Jul 2, 2012, 12:10 AM
Yes, people *touched* them, but were they able to use it?

http://marketingland.com/hands-off-microsoft-surface-tablet-review-15146

I'm sure they used them. But it was probably a bunch of older people who needed a tutorial and probably had zero clue on how to use it.

Xian Zhu Xuande
Jul 2, 2012, 12:16 AM
I'm very glad Microsoft is jumping in (though they still seem to lack focus with this everything-and-the-kitchen-sink approach to Windows 8). And I'm looking forward to seeing how the Surface turns out.

But it seems wishy-washy to expect great things of it at this stage. They wouldn't let anyone interact with it in meaningful ways and we still know very little about the hardware. It needs to become far more substantial before it is worthy of meaningful discussion.

I disagree about the iPad. It is a large iPad only in that it shares an OS, but applications optimized for the iPad create an incredible experience very much unlike what may be offered on the iPhone, and both have extremely distinct strengths and weaknesses (iPhone for camera, phone, portability, convenience; iPad for more work space, far more immersive reading and consumption, larger canvas for creation and complex interfaces, etc.).

Xian Zhu Xuande
Jul 2, 2012, 12:18 AM
I'm sure they used them. But it was probably a bunch of older people who needed a tutorial and probably had zero clue on how to use it.
Nobody got to use them for anything worthwhile. Nobody got to do anything worthwhile with the keyboard.

PhoneI
Jul 2, 2012, 02:12 AM
Yeah too bad no one has touched one. :p

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6016/microsoft-surface-we-go-hands-on
"Post-announcement, Microsoft took us to a backroom in Milk Studios to give us hands on experience with the Surface. They weren't lying, even the preproduction units feel awesome in hand."

Microsoft Surface - We Go Hands On [UPDATE: Detailed Impressions]

Image (http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6016/_DSC8177_575px.JPG)

Image (http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6016/_DSC8202_575px.JPG)

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6016/CAM00012[1]_575px.jpg

Have they touched a unit that actual turns on? First "hands on" I ever read where they didn't actual use a working unit.

MattWeed9
Jul 2, 2012, 05:17 AM
Ugh. More than two years later and there are still "It's just a giant iPhone" people out there.

Maybe that is because it is the truth? Is there anything you can do on and iPad that cannot be done on an iPhone?

ougum
Jul 2, 2012, 05:22 AM
Maybe that is because it is the truth? Is there anything you can do on and iPad that cannot be done on an iPhone?

Yes. See the text on the screen without straining your eyes.

MonkeySee....
Jul 2, 2012, 05:29 AM
Useless input.. I know exactly what it is. Doesn't mean it's all that different of an experience than the iPhone. The windows surface tablet is a TOTALLY different experience, and a lot of it has to do with SOFTWARE.

The only thing they have in common is the OS. The iPad is a different experience. There are Apps are designed specifically for it.

You install "Wonders of the Universe" and tell me you would get the same experience on the iPhone.

If you see no difference then you're not using it to its full potential and therefore you probably don't need it.

MythicFrost
Jul 2, 2012, 05:36 AM
The Windows 8 RT slate doesn't offer anything better than what's available now, and the market for the Windows 8 Pro slate is just a niche. I'm sure it'll sell, but not very well. I on the other hand would love to see Windows Phone 8 designed for a tablet and not this weird Windows 8 Slate/Desktop hybrid.

Night Spring
Jul 2, 2012, 05:44 AM
The Windows 8 RT slate doesn't offer anything better than what's available now, and the market for the Windows 8 Pro slate is just a niche. I'm sure it'll sell, but not very well. I on the other hand would love to see Windows Phone 8 designed for a tablet and not this weird Windows 8 Slate/Desktop hybrid.

What's the difference between Windows phone 8 and Windows 8 RT?

MythicFrost
Jul 2, 2012, 05:48 AM
What's the difference between Windows phone 8 and Windows 8 RT?
Windows Phone 8 doesn't have a desktop, or a file system, or anything like that afaik. It's like Windows Phone 7 or 7.5, whereas Windows 8 RT is basically Windows 8 but with support for only ARM apps.

jojoba
Jul 2, 2012, 07:11 AM
I'm all happy with my iPad, but when I talk to friends who are considering buying a tablet, all of them consider the Microsoft Office question because they work in Windows environment. So, that kind of compatibility will pull a few people, I think, as will a USB port.

Ay_Zimmy
Jul 2, 2012, 09:14 AM
The only thing they have in common is the OS. The iPad is a different experience. There are Apps are designed specifically for it.

You install "Wonders of the Universe" and tell me you would get the same experience on the iPhone.

If you see no difference then you're not using it to its full potential and therefore you probably don't need it.

Well of course it's a different experience in some ways, such as the apps due to coding.. But like I said, I web browse, watch Netflix, and stream my cablevision account.. So it isn't all that different. I personally stated I want something more foriegn, something new and fresh, no I would never buy a nexus tablet, but Microsoft has a good enough track record to give them the respect and wait to see the entire thing in full throttle

barjam
Jul 2, 2012, 10:13 AM
Please, stop calling it a big iPhone. If YOU have NO clue of what an iPad is, then never even write the name iPad.

Well if you remove the implied slam the phrase is accurate. The only real difference is the larger screen and the removal of the phone app/hardware. The only thing an iPad really has over the phone is enough screen real estate to make certain classes of apps usable.

AceCoolie
Jul 2, 2012, 01:43 PM
I worked for MS for about 5 years doing video drivers (Win2k to Vista). I've now moved on to do network security stuff but my bro in law still works there and is one of the Direct Draw architects. He's done LOTS of work on Win8 and the Surface tablets. I just spoke with him about the tablet at a family reunion last week (I was bummed he didn't bring one. He had Win8 on a netbook though). Here are a few thoughts.

MS is not stupid. The tablet market is pretty well defined now vs when they tried before. They know the bar is the iPad. They know that you can't release something that sucks at the same price as Apple. The big difference he's seen at MS with regards to the Surface tablet is that the WHOLE company is focused on this. It's not like the little Zune group that wanted to make a mp3 player and no one else at MS cared. EVERYONE cares about this. Every group. Office. Games. Dev. Everyone. They are all optimizing their stuff for it.

For this reason, I think the Surface will be a very competitive table. My vision of tablet computing is to have a single tablet that replaces your home computer. When your home, you drop it in a dock and it connects to your multiple monitors, printer, keyboard, mouse, etc. and you have a full on machine. When you leave your office, you pop it out of the dock and you have a nice touch interface with an iPad like experience but you still have access to all your desktop apps and data.

It seems to me, MS is going to make this happen sooner than Apple. I see no evidence of Apple combining their desktop OS with mobile devices. Instead, to combine desktop and mobile, they appear to be putting their eggs in the cloud basket. MS with their Surface Pro version on the other hand, is making this happen now. Granted, with this first release, it doesn't have the horsepower to replace my home photoshop machine but at least it's a start.

I am defiantly looking at getting the pro version. I'm not expecting it to have the battery life of my iPad 3 and I think it's going to be expensive but if Metro delivers like I think it will (my wife has a windows phone), I think it will be worth it. Combined with the ability to run any windows app as well as Metro apps, install printer drivers, have multiple user accounts for my kids etc, I think this is going to be a real contender. My only reservation is giving up my killer Retina screen. Since that was the sole reason I upgraded from my iPad2 to the iPad3, I'm going to have to get some hands on with the Surface tablet before I make my decision.

Now, the flipside to all this is that his wife wanted a tablet for Mothers day so he bought her an iPad 3 :)

Piggie
Jul 2, 2012, 01:58 PM
^^^^ Thank you for this post. Very interesting.
I can see, as you say there is a gigantic difference between one corner of an organisation creating a single product to run along side the companies main product/s, and having the whole massive company, with all it's separate divisions focussed behind this one objective.

Whatever happens it's going to be interesting, and only a fool would dismiss Microsoft out of hand when they are fully determined to make something succeed.

It's going to be fun watching it all happen :)

Ay_Zimmy
Jul 2, 2012, 03:27 PM
I worked for MS for about 5 years doing video drivers (Win2k to Vista). I've now moved on to do network security stuff but my bro in law still works there and is one of the Direct Draw architects. He's done LOTS of work on Win8 and the Surface tablets. I just spoke with him about the tablet at a family reunion last week (I was bummed he didn't bring one. He had Win8 on a netbook though). Here are a few thoughts.

MS is not stupid. The tablet market is pretty well defined now vs when they tried before. They know the bar is the iPad. They know that you can't release something that sucks at the same price as Apple. The big difference he's seen at MS with regards to the Surface tablet is that the WHOLE company is focused on this. It's not like the little Zune group that wanted to make a mp3 player and no one else at MS cared. EVERYONE cares about this. Every group. Office. Games. Dev. Everyone. They are all optimizing their stuff for it.

For this reason, I think the Surface will be a very competitive table. My vision of tablet computing is to have a single tablet that replaces your home computer. When your home, you drop it in a dock and it connects to your multiple monitors, printer, keyboard, mouse, etc. and you have a full on machine. When you leave your office, you pop it out of the dock and you have a nice touch interface with an iPad like experience but you still have access to all your desktop apps and data.

It seems to me, MS is going to make this happen sooner than Apple. I see no evidence of Apple combining their desktop OS with mobile devices. Instead, to combine desktop and mobile, they appear to be putting their eggs in the cloud basket. MS with their Surface Pro version on the other hand, is making this happen now. Granted, with this first release, it doesn't have the horsepower to replace my home photoshop machine but at least it's a start.

I am defiantly looking at getting the pro version. I'm not expecting it to have the battery life of my iPad 3 and I think it's going to be expensive but if Metro delivers like I think it will (my wife has a windows phone), I think it will be worth it. Combined with the ability to run any windows app as well as Metro apps, install printer drivers, have multiple user accounts for my kids etc, I think this is going to be a real contender. My only reservation is giving up my killer Retina screen. Since that was the sole reason I upgraded from my iPad2 to the iPad3, I'm going to have to get some hands on with the Surface tablet before I make my decision.

Now, the flipside to all this is that his wife wanted a tablet for Mothers day so he bought her an iPad 3 :)

This is the kind of post I've been looking for. Microsoft as a company knows that the tablet is their product INTO this market. It can't be crappy by any means. It has to be a product that gets hype and respect the day it hits the shelves. I'm sure Microsoft played this correctly and I trust them that they really have something going right now. It's features stand out tremendously and if it runs like a tablet then this thing could be amazing.

flyguy206
Jul 2, 2012, 09:30 PM
Microsoft is dead the nexus 7 killed any interest that people had in Thier tablets.

Rodster
Jul 2, 2012, 09:39 PM
Microsoft is dead the nexus 7 killed any interest that people had in Thier tablets.

How? One Tablet runs the latest flavor of Android which up until the Kindle Fire was released had little OS traction. The other runs off of Windows which has the largest market-share for desktops and laptops. :p

Ay_Zimmy
Jul 3, 2012, 08:12 AM
Microsoft is dead the nexus 7 killed any interest that people had in Thier tablets.

Well this is a silly comment. Can I get info confirming this?

gloss
Jul 3, 2012, 08:16 AM
I'm sure they used them. But it was probably a bunch of older people who needed a tutorial and probably had zero clue on how to use it.

Wow, seriously?

spinedoc77
Jul 3, 2012, 12:46 PM
My vision of tablet computing is to have a single tablet that replaces your home computer. When your home, you drop it in a dock and it connects to your multiple monitors, printer, keyboard, mouse, etc. and you have a full on machine. When you leave your office, you pop it out of the dock and you have a nice touch interface with an iPad like experience but you still have access to all your desktop apps and data.


This is exactly the vision I've always had in terms of a "tablet" computer. The ipad just does not, and probably won't ever do this. Don't get me wrong I have loved my ipads (have bought all 3 versions) and what they do over the years, but I've always always had that feeling that I was settling. I think the phrase "it's just a giant iphone" is pretty appropriate, which isn't a bad thing, but it does describe how it falls short of a full desktop.

This isn't an us versus them discussion IMO, ie Win8 Pro versus iOS. I think there will continue to be plenty of consumers who find iOS to fulfill what they want in a "tablet", email, light web browsing, content/music/video consumption, etc. But I also think there is quite a large market for those of us who want a full OS on our tablets, consumers who were just biding time and settling with iOS until the market caught up and gave us a true desktop OS.

erawsd
Jul 3, 2012, 01:39 PM
I hope the Surface is a smashing success and even outsells the iPad for the remainder of the year.

Why?

I don't care to own one, I just want someone to light a fire under Apple's ass. Over the last couple of years Apple has become far too comfortable with its position, and they're content pushing out these incremental updates full of beta software and fluff.

Night Spring
Jul 3, 2012, 02:01 PM
But I also think there is quite a large market for those of us who want a full OS on our tablets, consumers who were just biding time and settling with iOS until the market caught up and gave us a true desktop OS.

I think it is technology that needs to catch up, not the market. For instance, it's obvious that the Surface Pro must run hotter than an iPad, since Microsoft had to create a cooling system for it. It's also yet unknown how good the battery life is on a Surface Pro, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was considerably shorter than the iPad's. I have a feeling that Apple isn't unaware that there is a market for a tablet-sized device capable of running a full desktop operating system, but they are waiting until the technology is there to create a tablet device that can run a full desktop OS while staying as cool and with a 10-hour battery life like the iPad.

Piggie
Jul 3, 2012, 02:02 PM
I hope the Surface is a smashing success and even outsells the iPad for the remainder of the year.

Why?

I don't care to own one, I just want someone to light a fire under Apple's ass. Over the last couple of years Apple has become far too comfortable with its position, and they're content pushing out these incremental updates full of beta software and fluff.

You are exactly right here. Can you just imagine how backwards we'd be now if the PC war never existed and Apple on it's own was making computers for the world with no-one to compete against.

Even the most loyal Apple fan should be smart enough to understand, giving Apple some real competition will do nothing, but make Apple products better. And anyone who thinks Apple will do what they like regardless of competition is living in a dream world.

Apple, like any business have to stay competitive and offer customers things they feel are better then the opposition. If there is no opposition then they have zero need to push very hard at all, and can milk each tiny upgrade for all the money they can. Just like most other businesses would do given the chance.

Stuntman06
Jul 3, 2012, 02:12 PM
I'm all happy with my iPad, but when I talk to friends who are considering buying a tablet, all of them consider the Microsoft Office question because they work in Windows environment. So, that kind of compatibility will pull a few people, I think, as will a USB port.

I own a Transformer tablet and one of the things I want for it is a decent spreadsheet app. The one I tried sucked compared to Excel on my PC. Excel set a very high standard for me. After using it for 20 years, I have yet to see anything come close. I would love to have something that is at least workable on my tablet. The only ones I tried so far are Polaris Office and Google Docs. I haven't tried anything else as I don't use spreadsheets much as of late.

My vision of tablet computing is to have a single tablet that replaces your home computer. When your home, you drop it in a dock and it connects to your multiple monitors, printer, keyboard, mouse, etc. and you have a full on machine. When you leave your office, you pop it out of the dock and you have a nice touch interface with an iPad like experience but you still have access to all your desktop apps and data.

This is what I want as well. Right now, my Transformer with keyboard dock comes close, but I still need my PC for some things. My Transformer tablet can do probably about 75% of what I want to do on my PC and do many of those things a lot better or more conveniently. Right now I can do days at a time without touching my PC, but I do have to use it on occasion. A tablet-like PC replacement is something I would really like. I want to get rid of my PC completely. A phone plus a tablet is what I want to satify all of my mobile, communications and computing needs.

Carouser
Jul 3, 2012, 03:50 PM
I don't care to own one, I just want someone to light a fire under Apple's ass. Over the last couple of years Apple has become far too comfortable with its position, and they're content pushing out these incremental updates full of beta software and fluff.

Over the last couple of years Apple has released some of the most advanced consumer electronics imaginable and their current offerings put competitors to shame. They've already responded - if you think they are resting on their laurels go get a job at Apple and see what it's like to work there.

The limits on their updates are infrastructure and technology, not the absence of competition; they could hardly produce improvements any more quickly.

Your ideas about what they should be doing aren't hampered by a connection to reality but unfortunately Apple doesn't have the same freedom.

EDIT: Just to be clear, there is competition in the marketplace; Apple continually responds and what results is just that - a range of products for consumers and superior products. Apparently competition only works one way - if Microsoft makes something good, Apple will supposedly respond with improvements, but when Apple makes something good, other companies take three years to cobble together landfill electronics. Go figure.

Ay_Zimmy
Jul 4, 2012, 01:24 AM
The difference is that the nexus looks like an iPad impersonation while Microsoft took the time and built something that stands themselves out. People in offices/travel would love it, the USB port stands out, keyboard, Microsots MOST IMPORTANT software yet, since they need this to put their foot in the door. Microsoft justntookvtheir time to make the perfect product, took Apple's mentality and built something the Microsoft way. We have to realize this tablet is striking the LAPTOP market intensel, which will eventually give it more attention to tablet users, or create new users to the tablet market. People need to give them more credit. This is Microsoft we are talking about, not the nexus tablet.

HolyGrail
Jul 4, 2012, 02:23 AM
Until Microsoft can understand the concept of keep it simple stupid, the surface will be an utter failure...IMO. The fact that they keep thinking the tablet is meant to replace something (computer or labtop) when it's supposed to be it's own entity....... is their main downfall.

Plus, if they don't allow other default options, besides Bing search and Bing maps, (kinda like they do on Windows phones.)... that will be another reason it will fail.

spinedoc77
Jul 4, 2012, 07:16 AM
I think it is technology that needs to catch up, not the market. For instance, it's obvious that the Surface Pro must run hotter than an iPad, since Microsoft had to create a cooling system for it. It's also yet unknown how good the battery life is on a Surface Pro, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was considerably shorter than the iPad's. I have a feeling that Apple isn't unaware that there is a market for a tablet-sized device capable of running a full desktop operating system, but they are waiting until the technology is there to create a tablet device that can run a full desktop OS while staying as cool and with a 10-hour battery life like the iPad.

Certainly these are the things I am waiting for. Battery life needs to be at least 75% of the ipad IMO, otherwise I don't want any part of it regardless of OS. Heat, well my ipad3 gets pretty darned hot so I think I'm ok with that by now.

But as you say, I'm reserving judgement until I actually hold one in my hands, or at least can read an unbiased hardware review of one. But if they do indeed have a long battery, acceptable heat full Windows OS then I'm sold on day one.

----------

I hope the Surface is a smashing success and even outsells the iPad for the remainder of the year.

Why?

I don't care to own one, I just want someone to light a fire under Apple's ass. Over the last couple of years Apple has become far too comfortable with its position, and they're content pushing out these incremental updates full of beta software and fluff.

Very accurate. I think it will be great what competition will bring and how Apple will answer it. My best hope is that Apple releases something so incredible I won't want to buy the Surface, but that just isn't true today.

Rodster
Jul 4, 2012, 08:04 AM
I hope the Surface is a smashing success and even outsells the iPad for the remainder of the year.

Why?

I don't care to own one, I just want someone to light a fire under Apple's ass. Over the last couple of years Apple has become far too comfortable with its position, and they're content pushing out these incremental updates full of beta software and fluff.

Unfortunately get used to it. With Steve no longer steering the ship, to me he was the only person who could imagine the next must have product. Yes Jonathan Ive's is an important figure as well but Steve had this insane ability of creating some of the coolest stuff people would part their money with.

cdf3
Jul 4, 2012, 08:49 AM
In my opinion, I do not feel that the iPad is a large phone.
It can feel that way to some, depending on the types of apps they use and how they use it. I actually use mine as close to a laptop as I can get it.
I have a BlueTooth Keyboard that I use with it. It comes in handy when typing Word and Excel documents. I do quite a bit of web browsing. I can quickly edit my websites using the WordPress app. Read and reply to numerous Emails.
A lot of what I was going on my laptop, I can now do on my iPad.
For those only using the iPad to listen to music, play videos, and games, then it may very well seem like a large iPhone or large iPod Touch.

As for the Microsoft Surface Tablet, I can't wait to see all of the reviews on it's performance and battery life. Being able to run Windows 8 on a tablet would be awesome. I know quite a few people that have the dilemma of, should I get an iPad or Laptop, because there are things that you can't do on an iPad that requires you to use the desktop version of PC or Mac. This will allow many to by a tablet that will take care all of their needs.

Ay_Zimmy
Jul 4, 2012, 09:17 AM
Until Microsoft can understand the concept of keep it simple stupid, the surface will be an utter failure...IMO. The fact that they keep thinking the tablet is meant to replace something (computer or labtop) when it's supposed to be it's own entity....... is their main downfall.

Plus, if they don't allow other default options, besides Bing search and Bing maps, (kinda like they do on Windows phones.)... that will be another reason it will fail.

See. Your just thinking apples way. Microsoft is the type of company that made such an impact in the pc maret that u have to trust they will transform it with their tablet, it's more down their alley than an iPad and Apple. Different companies, different visions.

spinedoc77
Jul 4, 2012, 11:58 AM
Until Microsoft can understand the concept of keep it simple stupid, the surface will be an utter failure...IMO. The fact that they keep thinking the tablet is meant to replace something (computer or labtop) when it's supposed to be it's own entity....... is their main downfall.

Plus, if they don't allow other default options, besides Bing search and Bing maps, (kinda like they do on Windows phones.)... that will be another reason it will fail.

I think the opposite, the concept that the tablet is NOT meant to replace anything but become an extra device is what is ultimately going to be a less viable device. Note I use less dramatic terminology than "doomed to failure".

Microsoft is clearly attempting to tackle the reasons people say a tablet cannot replace a computer or laptop, things like the keyboard/input and the OS. As I've said before when I look at my laptop and my ipad side by side I can't help but wonder why I need both of them. Microsoft's approach really has been the same from the beginning, to have a full OS on their tablets. Unfortunately technology was not advanced enough to do this and they ended up with very clunky, short battery life, with an OS which was not designed for touch screens. Today we have the hardware capability to run a full OS on a slim "tablet" type device with an acceptable battery life, MS has shown us we can truly have a keyboard which doesn't take away from the form factor or portability, and they are working very hard on an OS which can flip to a full OS and also to a portable OS in the same package.

Now the technology is hopefully at a level which will let us truly experience this. The ipad was a stopgap device which gave us a valuable bridge from a full computer to a portable device, but it was exactly that, a stopgap. At the end of the day it's one more device for me to purchase, one more device for me to consider putting into my bag when I go to work or on vacation, one more device that if it wasn't for the larger screen would simply replace my smartphone. None of this is saying anything bad about the ipad at all, but IMO it's time for bigger (not literally) and better devices to enter the market.

darngooddesign
Jul 4, 2012, 11:59 AM
Plus, if they don't allow other default options, besides Bing search and Bing maps, (kinda like they do on Windows phones.)... that will be another reason it will fail.

You mean like how I can't change the default browser on a stock iPad?

62tele
Jul 4, 2012, 12:11 PM
See. Your just thinking apples way. Microsoft is the type of company that made such an impact in the pc maret that u have to trust they will transform it with their tablet, it's more down their alley than an iPad and Apple. Different companies, different visions.


Microsoft has never "transformed" anything. They simpy don't get mobile devices. You want a USB port, keyboard and peripherals. Get an Air or Ultra.
Jobs was right about a post PC world. It's here and it caught Microsoft with its pants down as usual.

Another Zune or Kin is coming.

Microsoft, the company that gave you Windows ME and Vista.

Stuntman06
Jul 4, 2012, 12:25 PM
The difference is that the nexus looks like an iPad impersonation while Microsoft took the time and built something that stands themselves out. People in offices/travel would love it, the USB port stands out, keyboard, Microsots MOST IMPORTANT software yet, since they need this to put their foot in the door. Microsoft justntookvtheir time to make the perfect product, took Apple's mentality and built something the Microsoft way. We have to realize this tablet is striking the LAPTOP market intensel, which will eventually give it more attention to tablet users, or create new users to the tablet market. People need to give them more credit. This is Microsoft we are talking about, not the nexus tablet.

Up until Surface, the only tablet that I though really stood out was the Transformer with its keyboard dock. That was the reason I got one. It is not quite a PC replacement as I still need a PC for some things. I think that Surface takes it a step further to being a PC replacement.

Microsoft is clearly attempting to tackle the reasons people say a tablet cannot replace a computer or laptop, things like the keyboard/input and the OS. As I've said before when I look at my laptop and my ipad side by side I can't help but wonder why I need both of them. Microsoft's approach really has been the same from the beginning, to have a full OS on their tablets. Unfortunately technology was not advanced enough to do this and they ended up with very clunky, short battery life, with an OS which was not designed for touch screens. Today we have the hardware capability to run a full OS on a slim "tablet" type device with an acceptable battery life, MS has shown us we can truly have a keyboard which doesn't take away from the form factor or portability, and they are working very hard on an OS which can flip to a full OS and also to a portable OS in the same package.

The biggest problem I have with my laptop is the battery life. I cannot use it unplugged for more than 2.5 hours at a time. My tablet lasts 16 hours (including the keyboard dock). I don't think I should need both a laptop and a tablet. I would like a single device instead of two. I don't think this will happen yet with the first iteration of MS Surface. I do hope that by the time I need a new PC and tablet, I will only need to buy a single device instead of two.

Piggie
Jul 4, 2012, 12:57 PM
Microsoft has never "transformed" anything. They simpy don't get mobile devices. You want a USB port, keyboard and peripherals. Get an Air or Ultra.
Jobs was right about a post PC world. It's here and it caught Microsoft with its pants down as usual.



So, you do not class the iPad as a Personal Computer?

To me, I'd say it was a VERY PERSONAL computer.

Very interesting. So what do you actually see that iPad as then?
Not a computer?

erawsd
Jul 4, 2012, 02:15 PM
Over the last couple of years Apple has released some of the most advanced consumer electronics imaginable and their current offerings put competitors to shame. They've already responded - if you think they are resting on their laurels go get a job at Apple and see what it's like to work there.

The limits on their updates are infrastructure and technology, not the absence of competition; they could hardly produce improvements any more quickly.

Your ideas about what they should be doing aren't hampered by a connection to reality but unfortunately Apple doesn't have the same freedom.

EDIT: Just to be clear, there is competition in the marketplace; Apple continually responds and what results is just that - a range of products for consumers and superior products. Apparently competition only works one way - if Microsoft makes something good, Apple will supposedly respond with improvements, but when Apple makes something good, other companies take three years to cobble together landfill electronics. Go figure.

I'm not talking about the hardware, I agree that there isn't much more Apple can be doing with it.

I'm talking about software, over the last 2 years Apple really hasn't done much to address the weaknesses of the iPad. We got beta iCloud, which works well for some things but is a nightmare for others. Soon some of us will be getting beta Siri and beta Maps that are, arguably, less useful that what we have now. Apple got its reputation for never releasing anything "before its ready", and here we have 3 beta products in the last year.

Its still a serious PITA to get anything on or off the iPad, unless you're buying it from Itunes. I understand that Apple doesn't want to bring in a file system, but what we have now is pathetic and far more frustrating. Multitasking blows. iWork is still missing basic functionality/compatibility with real word processors.

My hope is that MS is able to release its USB equipped, Stylus friendly tablet with full file access, a real office suite, multitasking features, and support for every peripheral under the sun -- and its a massive success because it'll force Apple to rethink these aspect of iOS.

HolyGrail
Jul 4, 2012, 05:17 PM
You mean like how I can't change the default browser on a stock iPad? No....because the browser, and the default search are two different things.

If you search on a windows phone..it forces you to use Bing (using browser or default search). iPhone/iPad allows the option to switch between Google,Yahoo, or Bing.

darngooddesign
Jul 4, 2012, 10:08 PM
No....because the browser, and the default search are two different things.

If you search on a windows phone..it forces you to use Bing (using browser or default search). iPhone/iPad allows the option to switch between Google,Yahoo, or Bing.

In he context of this discussion they are the same thing, restrictions placed by the manufacturer.

Beta Particle
Jul 5, 2012, 01:11 AM
Useless input.. I know exactly what it is. Doesn't mean it's all that different of an experience than the iPhone. The windows surface tablet is a TOTALLY different experience, and a lot of it has to do with SOFTWARE.Sorry, but I don’t think you understand what Windows RT is. With the exception of Office and Internet Explorer, there will be no desktop apps for WinRT. Third party developers are only able to create Metro apps, which seem to be much more limited in scope than iOS allows, if they follow Microsoft’s UI guidelines. I can’t imagine that Metro apps will have the developer support that iOS has, neither Windows Phone or Android come close to the iOS App Store.

''The Windows Surface Tablet is just a smaller Windows computer''The $1000 Surface Pro is a Windows computer, with hardware that is going to be hot, loud and have terrible battery life. Just look at how poor the battery life is on the 11″ MacBook Air running Windows, and now imagine cramming that hardware into a much smaller enclosure which also uses up a lot of space for the kickstand.

The fact that Microsoft hasn't announced battery life is very concerning. Plus, working with desktop applications when the Surface is in tablet mode is a no-go, because the apps aren't designed for touch interface, and 10inch is not enough screen space. It has a 42Wh battery, which is more than the 35Wh of the 11″ MacBook Air. Windows has traditionally been less efficient than OS X though, so I would expect battery life on par with the MacBook Air—about two hours if you’re actually doing anything more than just web browsing or typing up a document.

As for your size concerns, there are no issues running Windows on a tablet that size. I frequently connect remotely to my PC here with my iPad, or use it as an extended monitor.

According to this presentation The Surface won't use a fan to keep it running cool. It uses a unique cooling system called "Perimeter Venting". :cool:It uses a fan, the point is that there is not one specific fan grille that might be covered by how you hold the device, perimeter venting means that all sides are used for air to escape.

I hope the Surface is a smashing success and even outsells the iPad for the remainder of the year.

Why?

I don't care to own one, I just want someone to light a fire under Apple's ass.Agreed. Having a competitor to the iPad would be a Good thing™.

If nothing else, I want to see if Apple can come up with something like the keyboard cover & kickstand for the iPad. Bluetooth 4 with inductive power? That way you could have something similar without requiring a physical connector. (The Surface is horribly ugly with all those ports & connectors around the edges)

HolyGrail
Jul 5, 2012, 02:34 AM
In he context of this discussion they are the same thing, restrictions placed by the manufacturer.

No..it's not. One is more restrictive then the other. Bottom line, Microsoft doesn't get it,and until they do......surface will fail.

What they need to do is stop trying to replace the desktop or the laptop. They instead need to build a tablet, that is based on superior touch, innovative software that no one's ever seen before, that appeals to advance users..... but it is as simple as a child to use and a grandmother could enjoy. This is how you get mass appeal for your product. They need to do this better than the iPad does and it will succeed.

You don't replace the kitchen knife, or a camping knife, or a work knife, with an all in one knife, to do everything in your household because it isn't a smart thing to do.

Keep a steak knife, a steak knife....... Keep a tablet, a tablet.

Night Spring
Jul 5, 2012, 03:06 AM
As for your size concerns, there are no issues running Windows on a tablet that size. I frequently connect remotely to my PC here with my iPad, or use it as an extended monitor.

I've tried remoting from my iPad to my PC, and I didn't like the experience. Let's just say like most things, this is a personal preference -- some people, like yourself, might find a 10-inch screen satisfactory, while others, like me, find it too small to get anything done.

Using an iPad as a second monitor is a different thing -- you can use it to display an app that doesn't need much space, like say, your twitter feed or chat window.

TAJones99
Jul 5, 2012, 03:07 AM
We will can I love competition.:)

Piggie
Jul 5, 2012, 04:05 AM
No..it's not. One is more restrictive then the other. Bottom line, Microsoft doesn't get it,and until they do......surface will fail.

What they need to do is stop trying to replace the desktop or the laptop. They instead need to build a tablet, that is based on superior touch, innovative software that no one's ever seen before, that appeals to advance users..... but it is as simple as a child to use and a grandmother could enjoy. This is how you get mass appeal for your product. They need to do this better than the iPad does and it will succeed.

You don't replace the kitchen knife, or a camping knife, or a work knife, with an all in one knife, to do everything in your household because it isn't a smart thing to do.

Keep a steak knife, a steak knife....... Keep a tablet, a tablet.

That's because a knife is a physically different object

A rectangle with glass on the front running iOS is the same physical item as a rectangle with glass on the front running OSX

You are saying in effect make a TV that only shows 1 channel, or just one TV for TV and another TV for games consoles.

In effect it's only the program on the screen of a TV or a Tablet that is the difference. nothing physical.

Sure you can then have or have not an optional physical keyboard to interact with what it on the screen, but it's the same physical object, just displaying a different program (operating system) on it's same screen

HolyGrail
Jul 5, 2012, 04:19 AM
That's because a knife is a physically different object

A rectangle with glass on the front running iOS is the same physical item as a rectangle with glass on the front running OSX

You are saying in effect make a TV that only shows 1 channel, or just one TV for TV and another TV for games consoles.

In effect it's only the program on the screen of a TV or a Tablet that is the difference. nothing physical.

Sure you can then have or have not an optional physical keyboard to interact with what it on the screen, but it's the same physical object, just displaying a different program (operating system) on it's same screen

Huh..what? What I posted was an analogy. You took it way too literally and went on a rant with it.

Piggie
Jul 5, 2012, 07:09 AM
Huh..what? What I posted was an analogy. You took it way too literally and went on a rant with it.

Because the analogy was a wrong one.

As you rightly point out a steak knife, a carving knife a butter knife etc are all physically different items that should be kept as separate things as you can't really have a perfect butter/steak/carving knife.

However, a tablet that runs iOS and a tablet that runs OSX are exactly the same thing. the only difference would be the software (program) that's running inside the memory of the chips on the circuit board.

There is no real practical reason why a tablet cannot be both things, unlike the knives.

As in there is no practical reason why my TV should not be using it's built in tuner one minute to show me some bible singing in church and the next moment, being fed via HMDI from my xBox to play Call or Duty.

The "Box of tricks" can do both tasks.

spinedoc77
Jul 5, 2012, 08:40 AM
Sorry, but I don’t think you understand what Windows RT is. With the exception of Office and Internet Explorer, there will be no desktop apps for WinRT. Third party developers are only able to create Metro apps, which seem to be much more limited in scope than iOS allows, if they follow Microsoft’s UI guidelines. I can’t imagine that Metro apps will have the developer support that iOS has, neither Windows Phone or Android come close to the iOS App Store.

The $1000 Surface Pro is a Windows computer, with hardware that is going to be hot, loud and have terrible battery life. Just look at how poor the battery life is on the 11″ MacBook Air running Windows, and now imagine cramming that hardware into a much smaller enclosure which also uses up a lot of space for the kickstand.

It has a 42Wh battery, which is more than the 35Wh of the 11″ MacBook Air. Windows has traditionally been less efficient than OS X though, so I would expect battery life on par with the MacBook Air—about two hours if you’re actually doing anything more than just web browsing or typing up a document.

As for your size concerns, there are no issues running Windows on a tablet that size. I frequently connect remotely to my PC here with my iPad, or use it as an extended monitor.

It uses a fan, the point is that there is not one specific fan grille that might be covered by how you hold the device, perimeter venting means that all sides are used for air to escape.

Agreed. Having a competitor to the iPad would be a Good thing™.

If nothing else, I want to see if Apple can come up with something like the keyboard cover & kickstand for the iPad. Bluetooth 4 with inductive power? That way you could have something similar without requiring a physical connector. (The Surface is horribly ugly with all those ports & connectors around the edges)

I would think that most on here are talking about WinPro, not WinRT. IMO WinRT is going to be an unmitigated disaster so I'm not even going to bother discussing it.

As for WinPro running hot, loud, and have terrible battery life we won't know until it's actually released. It's interesting that you bring up a macbook air running on windows, my wife runs Win7 on her 11" macbook air, and I run Win7 on my 13" macbook air. They both run smooth as butter, the fan rarely goes on unless I'm doing something intensive like transferring a large file, my laptops don't run hot in the least, battery life is exactly the same as when I run OSx, etc etc.

It really all is just guesses at this point until we see final hardware. At least in pie in the sky dreaming Microsoft seems to be taking "mobile PC's" to the next level, but it's too soon to tell and I'm hoping Apple will begin to innovate again like they did with the ipad1 in reaction to the competition.

darngooddesign
Jul 5, 2012, 08:42 AM
No..it's not. One is more restrictive then the other. Bottom line, Microsoft doesn't get it,and until they do......surface will fail.
Which is more restrictive is purely subjective.

What they need to do is stop trying to replace the desktop or the laptop. They instead need to build a tablet, that is based on superior touch, innovative software that no one's ever seen before, that appeals to advance users..... but it is as simple as a child to use and a grandmother could enjoy. This is how you get mass appeal for your product. They need to do this better than the iPad does and it will succeed.

You don't replace the kitchen knife, or a camping knife, or a work knife, with an all in one knife, to do everything in your household because it isn't a smart thing to do.

Keep a steak knife, a steak knife....... Keep a tablet, a tablet.

Apple totally should have kept an iPod an iPod, not combined it with a web browser and an app platform. :D

Metro is as innovative as iOS, and from a visual POV I think it is more so.

Apple has added many features to iOS that lets it replace the desktop, and for a lot of casual computer users, iPads have replaced their regular computers.

I would argue that with Metro being a separate layer from the classic desktop this is what Msoft is doing. If all you want is a tablet, that's all you need interact with. You have to specifically enter desktop mode, it doesn't happen accidentally, and if you buy an ARM device you will never enter it. I think Msoft ius being smart, you can have just the tablet experience, something that is optimized for touch and works just fine on the same level that iOS does, but if you want your tablet and computer to be a single device you can have that as well.

spinedoc77
Jul 5, 2012, 08:47 AM
Which is more restrictive is purely subjective.



Apple totally should have kept an iPod an iPod, not combined it with a web browser and an app platform. :D

I would argue that with Metro being a separate layer from the classic desktop this is what Msoft is doing. If all you want is a tablet, that's all you need interact with. You have to specifically enter desktop mode, it doesn't happen accidentally, and if you buy an ARM device you will never enter it. I think Msoft ius being smart, you can have just the tablet experience, something that is optimized for touch and works just fine on the same level that iOS does, but if you want your tablet and computer to be a single device you can have that as well.

Yep, that's what I think is Microsofts thinking. If you want the "simple" tablet experience similar to iOS you just stay in Metro mode. But you also have the option to have the full "windows" experience that 90%+ of the world uses.

What I think history will find as a mistake long term is concentrating on that "extra" device that the ipad is, it doesn't replace your computer for most users, it just becomes an extra device in which you accept the tradeoffs in power and usability in exchange for portability and battery life. The ipad was a necessary evil until the hardware caught up with the software.

Beta Particle
Jul 5, 2012, 11:02 AM
I would think that most on here are talking about WinPro, not WinRT. IMO WinRT is going to be an unmitigated disaster so I'm not even going to bother discussing it.The ARM-based WinRT tablets are the ones designed to compete with the iPad though, the Surface Pro is not an iPad competitor, especially when the base model is twice the price of an iPad. It's priced to compete with Ultrabooks and the MacBook Air.

Even the base model of Surface running WinRT is $100 more expensive than the iPad, and that's without the keyboard cover.

As for WinPro running hot, loud, and have terrible battery life we won't know until it's actually released. It's interesting that you bring up a macbook air running on windows, my wife runs Win7 on her 11" macbook air, and I run Win7 on my 13" macbook air. They both run smooth as butter, the fan rarely goes on unless I'm doing something intensive like transferring a large file, my laptops don't run hot in the least, battery life is exactly the same as when I run OSx, etc etc.Once you actually start doing any kind of work other than browsing the web or typing documents, it's going to start getting hot & loud. The Surface Pro is basically the current 11ʺ MacBook Air inside a smaller enclosure, with a 20% larger battery.

And it has been shown time and time again that Windows has worse battery life than OS X. Depending on the model and task being done, it can be as much as 20% less, so expect battery life around the same as the 11ʺ MacBook Air when running OS X. (which is pretty terrible in my opinion, especially when compared to an iPad that easily gets 8–12 hours when doing anything other than playing games)


What I think history will find as a mistake long term is concentrating on that "extra" device that the ipad is, it doesn't replace your computer for most users, it just becomes an extra device in which you accept the tradeoffs in power and usability in exchange for portability and battery life. The ipad was a necessary evil until the hardware caught up with the software.I can't imagine the Surface Pro replacing many people's computers either. You will need to be at a desk to use "classic" Windows apps properly (keyboard & trackpad) unlike a laptop which you can use anywhere without it falling over.

There are some great ideas with Surface, but I just don't think Windows 8 provides a good user experience either as a Desktop OS or a Tablet OS.

Rodster
Jul 5, 2012, 11:21 AM
Once you actually start doing any kind of work other than browsing the web or typing documents, it's going to start getting hot & loud. The Surface Pro is basically the current 11ʺ MacBook Air inside a smaller enclosure, with a 20% larger battery.

That's strictly conjecture and FUD. ;)

Microsoft has stated that the Surface will employ a unique cooling system which I linked in a previous post. The Surface can't get loud because from what i've read it doesn't use fans. :p

As far as battery life goes we'll see regarding the Surface as there are Android devices which compete battery wise with the iPad and Android has a tendency of chewing up battery time. I'm waiting for the final product to reserve judgement rather than generating FUD and past criticism of MS and Windows.

Piggie
Jul 5, 2012, 11:37 AM
Remember one very important thing.

Microsoft surface is equivalent in the learning process as iPad1

We are now at the 3rd model of the iPad (which really won't get sorted properly till iPad4 is out, when the power and memory will match the screen)

iPad4 will be the one where it all should come together very very well.

So let's see how the Surface looks by the time it gets to revision 4.

As everyone here must realise, It's only a matter of time (5 years?) Before low power chipsets will be up to running a full OS with ease.

Certainly, if we imagine 10 years from now, it's hard to imagine Apple's tablet only running an (in effect) mobile phone OS still, as the hardware will be so very much more powerful by then.

Beta Particle
Jul 5, 2012, 12:08 PM
That's strictly conjecture and FUD. ;)

Microsoft has stated that the Surface will employ a unique cooling system which I linked in a previous post. The Surface can't get loud because from what i've read it doesn't use fans. :pYou must have missed my previous post on the matter. The perimeter venting simply means that hot air is expelled from the device on all four sides, so that there is no one vent that can be covered up when the user picks up the tablet. There is a fan, Intel chips require them.

Why else would they be talking about a venting system they have developed for the Intel-powered tablet, which does not exist on the ARM one? Unlike Intel's chips, ARM chips can be passively cooled, as you have in the iPad, iPhone, other tablets & phones...

As far as battery life goes we'll see regarding the Surface as there are Android devices which compete battery wise with the iPad and Android has a tendency of chewing up battery time. I'm waiting for the final product to reserve judgement rather than generating FUD and past criticism of MS and Windows.Android devices are ARM tablets like the iPad, the x86 Surface Pro is using a Core i5 CPU from Intel—the same as an 11ʺ MacBook Air. It has a 42Wh battery compared to a 35Wh battery in the 11ʺ Air—20% higher capacity. In tests run on various websites such as Anandtech, Windows generally has 10–20% less efficient battery use compared to OS X when running on the same hardware, therefore battery life will be roughly on par with the 11ʺ Air or possibly somewhat improved. Heat & noise will likely be somewhat higher, because it's a much smaller, tighter packed enclosure.

These are not unknowns, or mysteries that will only be revealed when the tablet is on sale.

Rodster
Jul 5, 2012, 12:20 PM
No one has mentioned if the Surface uses a fan or even noise levels but rather MS has talked up active cooling. This is a pretty tight fitting design for a fan, we'll see but saying something is going to run loud and hot before the product is released is just FUD.

If it's true after it's released then I will accept that. It could sway my decision on buying one but we'll see.

http://www.newtabletsnews.com/new-tablets-surface-at-microsoft
http://www.newtabletsnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/surface_explodedview1.jpg

marty1990
Jul 5, 2012, 12:21 PM
I haven't read through all of the topic, but since I bought my iPad, I've been looking into Microsoft Surface, especially the RT version as it's more comparable to the iPad with it having a mobile OS.

I might be completely wrong, but I get the impression that it could go down a similar route with what happened with Windows and Mac. Now, when I think Apple, I think design, as in graphic editing and creation, video editing, and music production. I think Windows and I think word processing, office work (excel, databases etc.), and gaming. I know that each OS can do all of the things mentioned, but Mac's have a history of being more geared for 'arty' stuff, whereas Windows appear to have a a history of being more geared towards the other stuff I mentioned. At least, this is my thinking. *shrug*

I feel that this stereotype could then happen with Microsoft Surface and the iPad, in that the iPad will be used more so by those who do a lot of design work, and Surface will be used by those who do lot of word processing and more office type work. For the users in between, I feel that they'd go for iPad, just because it's an Apple product. Or Android.

That's what I reckon, anyway. I quite like the look of Surface, specifically the RT version.

ffmed124
Jul 5, 2012, 12:46 PM
Well the first iPad IS practically a large iPhone. But I was saying personally since I have an iPhone. I really want to give the Windows Surface a try since it is more like a tablet and pc combination.. Since using the iPad I see myself using the MacBook less. But I'm excited to see Windows try at it. Never said it wasn't part of my life, and I know it wasn't meant to replace a pc but the windows tablet may do both

Ugh. More than two years later and there are still "It's just a giant iPhone" people out there.

I think that if you don't like an iPad and don't see a place for it in your life, that's great. You probably won't see a place for any other tablet in your life either, Windows 8 or whatever. Stick to notebooks for your computing needs. The iPad was never designed to replace a computer. It was designed to be an extension of a computer at best, and a media consumption device. Windows 8 tablets are being designed to replace computers, and so will probably not do as well as iPads, because they won't be able to do better than what they're trying to replace. People will prefer to use their existing notebooks because they work better, cost less and aren't that much less portable.

I agree with you, the iPad is just a big iPhone although I'm sure it has it's purpose in someone's life but I found it a waste of money, just my opinion.

spinedoc77
Jul 5, 2012, 01:41 PM
The ARM-based WinRT tablets are the ones designed to compete with the iPad though, the Surface Pro is not an iPad competitor, especially when the base model is twice the price of an iPad. It's priced to compete with Ultrabooks and the MacBook Air.

Even the base model of Surface running WinRT is $100 more expensive than the iPad, and that's without the keyboard cover.

If the discussion is ipad versus surface RT then I can't argue with you, but it's not because of functionality where Microsoft is winningo over plenty of critics with Metro. It's more because ipad has such an incredible headstart and such an integrated ecosystem. Still, IMO the Surface Pro will compete with the ipad indirectly, for those consumers who consider purchasing a laptop AND an ipad such as myself I would definitely get a surface Pro and save a ton of money. For me I look at getting a think laptop and an ipad at @ $2-3k versus just getting a Surface Pro which I'll assume will be $1k.

Once you actually start doing any kind of work other than browsing the web or typing documents, it's going to start getting hot & loud. The Surface Pro is basically the current 11ʺ MacBook Air inside a smaller enclosure, with a 20% larger battery.

I run photoshop on it daily and it still doesn't chug. I've even ran some games on it that surprised me how well they ran. I think anything more specialized than that like possibly engineering, CAD, high end graphics, etc are going to have a dedicated desktop or a much beefier laptop than the air.

And it has been shown time and time again that Windows has worse battery life than OS X. Depending on the model and task being done, it can be as much as 20% less, so expect battery life around the same as the 11ʺ MacBook Air when running OS X. (which is pretty terrible in my opinion, especially when compared to an iPad that easily gets 8–12 hours when doing anything other than playing games)

I'm not familiar with the studies you are citing (or aren't) but I've been using Windows on Apple's hardware for years and anecdotally I don't see a difference whatsoever. Windows7 is very smooth and efficient. Surface RT to the ipad should be very comparable in battery life, but I agree there will be some kind of trade off to run a full windows OS versus something like iOS, how much of a trade off we don't know yet unless we have a crystal ball hidden somewhere. For me I'd be willing to trade off battery life to be 5-6 hours on a WinPro tablet, which is about what the 11" macbook air gets anyhow. I have a feeling it will be more than that though, Microsoft seems to have come alive in a big way and they know if they drop the ball on battery life they will be sunk. I am also impressed by the perimeter venting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep9bem6O9r4 But once again we are only guessing until we see it first hand.

I can't imagine the Surface Pro replacing many people's computers either. You will need to be at a desk to use "classic" Windows apps properly (keyboard & trackpad) unlike a laptop which you can use anywhere without it falling over.

Maybe, it's a good point although I would never use a laptop actually in my lap for any kind of serious work anyway. Seems kind of moot to me unless you are doing some CAD work on the subway.

There are some great ideas with Surface, but I just don't think Windows 8 provides a good user experience either as a Desktop OS or a Tablet OS.

Yeah I don't know where I stand on this yet either. I have Win8 installed on a spare laptop and I can't say I'm in love with it. It reminds me of the pocket PC days when they just left too much desktop windows in the OS, tiny little x's to close windows and other odd UI decisions. Although I haven't fiddled with it much on a touchscreen basis Metro really looks nice from a simple ipad like UI, and the beauty of it is how you can ignore desktop windows or flip over to it if you want. Certainly the software will be the make or break point.

HolyGrail
Jul 5, 2012, 02:16 PM
Which is more restrictive is purely subjective.



Apple totally should have kept an iPod an iPod, not combined it with a web browser and an app platform. :D

Metro is as innovative as iOS, and from a visual POV I think it is more so.

Apple has added many features to iOS that lets it replace the desktop, and for a lot of casual computer users, iPads have replaced their regular computers.

I would argue that with Metro being a separate layer from the classic desktop this is what Msoft is doing. If all you want is a tablet, that's all you need interact with. You have to specifically enter desktop mode, it doesn't happen accidentally, and if you buy an ARM device you will never enter it. I think Msoft ius being smart, you can have just the tablet experience, something that is optimized for touch and works just fine on the same level that iOS does, but if you want your tablet and computer to be a single device you can have that as well.

Will agree to disagree. You think Microsoft strategy is a good one....... I don't. We'll just revisit this thread in a few years, and see how their strategy turned out.

HolyGrail
Jul 5, 2012, 03:04 PM
Because the analogy was a wrong one.



You're nitpicking over something that was not meant to be taken literally......let it go......breath.

Tymmz
Jul 5, 2012, 04:40 PM
I'm also very keen on seeing one in action. It looks promising.

I personally feel more comfortable with my Apple products. It's a bit like eating an expensive BigMac. Very familiar.

VenusianSky
Jul 6, 2012, 07:32 AM
When it comes to the tablet, I think Microsoft is more interested in the market that they already far dominate, which is the corporate market. Apple is really far off from fitting in the corporate environment. We've been working with Apple to try to get iPads in our environment and they just doesn't seem to have any interest in satisfying corporate needs (device security and management in particular). Problem is that employees want to use their iPads with work. The only viable solution is to use the Citrix iOS client to connect to a Windows desktop server.
Microsoft Windows (NT) has been tuned to the corporate environment for around 15 years now. Windows 8 is built on that same technology and it will now be available for mobile devices. I plan on getting a new Windows 8 laptop at work that has a touchscreen (preferably a removable display/tablet with Windows 8 built in) once they become available. I like my iPad and all, but it just doesn't have what it takes to fit in the corporate world. I would really like a work computer that can run my business tools, plus double up as a mobile device.

960design
Jul 6, 2012, 07:58 AM
We look forward to testing the new Windows tablets and the 7" iPads, if they move from rumorware to hardware.

We beta'd Win8 and hated it, put in tons of change requests, as did many others and to be honest it looks like microsoft listened for the most part.

The device hardware looks very impressive, we will just have to wait and see if the software is snappy enough to keep users happy.


Just me

PS We are a combo apple/microsoft shop ( i work on the apple side ).

audix
Jul 27, 2012, 11:44 PM
There is nothing Microsoft can do to fix Windows 8. Nothing. It's just- I mean look at Windows 7 and then look at Windows 8.. what IS that?!

Stop Microsoft. Just stop.

Technarchy
Jul 28, 2012, 02:10 AM
Stop Microsoft. Just stop.

Stop is right.

ARM based model and i5 based model makes no sense. Confused customers, and confused developers is all you'll get by doing this.

Keyboard execution is nothing short of horrendous. A laptop that doesn't work on your lap? What? A trackpad for a tablet? Huh?

Cost. Everyone can sense this thing will cost more than the iPad.

Two different operating systems that look the same on two very similar looking but different products.

Two different USB formats...

If just doesn't make sense to make two models, that are sort of the same, but each having massive compromises to what they should be.

I don't see a single reason why I should retire my iPad for a surface. I'd rather get a Macbook Air or keep my iPad.

Renzatic
Jul 28, 2012, 02:27 AM
ARM based model and i5 based model makes no sense. Confused customers, and confused developers is all you'll get by doing this.

Not really. You have to actively seek out a Pro model. They're only available in MS shops and through online orders. Only someone who knows about a Pro and wants one for themselves will go out of their way to find one.

The SurfaceRT is going to be sold in every Walmart, Target, and Best Buy in the country. It'll be the one your average customer will pick up.

Basically, you want a tablet like the iPad? Get the RT. You want a powerful tablet capable of running PS and Zbrush? The Pro is your answer.

Keyboard execution is nothing short of horrendous. A laptop that doesn't work on your lap? What? A trackpad for a tablet? Huh?

Who actually uses their laptop in their lap? 96.8745% of the time, you've got it on a desk or other flat surface.

You gotta understand what MS is doing with Windows 8. You don't have two environments that are forced together in an awkward mix. You have two environments you jump between depending on how you want to use your tablet.

If you want to fire up Office, pop the kickstand, roll out the keyboard, and use the trackpad. Want to do more Metro oriented stuff? Pick it up in your hand and poke at it like you would an iPad.

This is the nice thing about it. It can (potentially) do both well. It's like all those people who complain "Metro sucks on the desktop". Guess what? You don't have to use it. I use Windows 8 almost exactly like I used Windows 7. Other than a new Start menu that looks different but is functionally the same, there isn't any huge changes to the basic desktop experience. I just now have the option to use Metro tablet apps if I want to.

Does it work? Will people take to it? That remains to be seen, but I can see the advantages of it.

Cost. Everyone can sense this thing will cost more than the iPad.

No doubt. I'll be surprised if the Surface debuts at anything less than $1100. But considering it's a niche pro product...

I don't see a single reason why I should retire my iPad for a surface. I'd rather get a Macbook Air or keep my iPad.

That's the thing. The Surface has the potential to be both in the same device. An iPad that can do everything a MBA can do, and still be good as a tablet. Once again, I don't know if it'll work great, or if it'll be an uneasy marriage between the two, but there is quite a bit of potential there.

Technarchy
Jul 28, 2012, 02:38 AM
Who actually uses their laptop in their lap? 96.8745% of the time, you've got it on a desk or other flat surface.

If that's the rational being catered to, that alone is a big win for the iPad.

And my Logitech Ultrathin + iPad works well on my desk, on my lap, or on my bed equally well.

Also, I think Tim Cook was right when he said the following.

I love convergence, convergence is great, but products are about tradeoffs. You have to make tough decisions, you have to choose, and the more you look at a tablet as a PC, the more the baggage of the past affects the products.

I said a few months ago, this flippant thing, you could converge a toaster and a refrigerator. Sure, you could do that. But I just think you wind up not building the best product, in this particular case, when you converge those.

iEvolution
Jul 28, 2012, 03:04 AM
Also, I think Tim Cook was right when he said the following.

Rather interesting considering they are the ones that converged two products together and took off with it. The iPhone combined a phone and ipod into one device and it is Apple's prime profit now.

audix
Jul 28, 2012, 07:44 AM
I just don't think Windows 8 is something that people are going to roll the dice on. Why would I switch from Windows 7 to something that is the antithesis of what Windows should've been.

Night Spring
Jul 28, 2012, 10:59 AM
Rather interesting considering they are the ones that converged two products together and took off with it. The iPhone combined a phone and ipod into one device and it is Apple's prime profit now.

Tim Cook isn't against all convergence -- he did start by saying "I love convergence, convergence is great." But he's saying you can't just pick any two products and converge them, they have to make sense. Phone+iPod made sense. Tablet+PC -- Apple doesn't think so, Microsoft thinks it makes sense.

Renzatic
Jul 28, 2012, 11:19 AM
I just don't think Windows 8 is something that people are going to roll the dice on. Why would I switch from Windows 7 to something that is the antithesis of what Windows should've been.

What? It's faster, smoother, lighter, and works better overall. Start menu controversy aside...

revelated
Jul 28, 2012, 11:34 AM
What? It's faster, smoother, lighter, and works better overall. Start menu controversy aside...

Having used Windows 8 extensively, I can say that the Start Menu is just one of many questionable decisions. The whole experience is rife with questionable decisions. Just do some YouTube searches for people who can't figure out navigation in Windows 8. Hell, I'm Microsoft certified many times over and even I had trouble finding basic functionality. The POINT is to make things easier for the user, not complicate needlessly.


Switching from Metro to Desktop using what was previously the Start menu is a piss poor decision, I'm sorry. A smarter decision would have been to have an exposed corner that you could swipe OR even a "window" in the middle of the desktop that would switch when clicked.
They buried the "Shut Down" option so far down in menus that it's almost like they don't want you to shut your machine off. Why?
Control Panel is an exercise in tedium. It takes 4x the clicks to get to just a list of your Control Panel options.
It took earthly forever to figure out how to customize the Metro side and eventually I just dropped it. Some tiles are large, some are small, some have icons, some don't, etc. Way too fragmented and no clear way to change colors, structure, etc.
Couldn't get my company's FirePass to execute even though it's just using basic plugins.
The search bar in Windows 7 under the Start orb was the most functional it'd ever been. Removing/moving this was terrible, as I instruct basic users to use this to find their files rather than dealing with folders.
If Windows crashes you lose touch functionality when attempting to go to Safe Mode or whatever else from the BIOS side. Maybe Surface has a workaround for this, but on other tablets it's an issue.



What Windows 8 did bring to the table is better touch driver support in general especially with Wacom digitizers. On the Eee Slate, the Wacom response is iffy and sometimes flakes out but it's smooth as butter in Windows 8, which surprised me.

Night Spring
Jul 28, 2012, 11:35 AM
What? It's faster, smoother, lighter, and works better overall. Start menu controversy aside...

Well, when I tried the preview, I found it annoying to find myself being dumped into metro interface every so often. Like some system settings were only avaiable in metro, while others were in the traditional control panel. Yes it felt a bit more responsive than Win7, but not enough to make me want to go through the hassle of upgrading. If I was assured that I could totally turn off metro and never have to deal with it, then maybe. Otherwise, the constant UI switching is just too annoying.

Vegastouch
Jul 28, 2012, 12:17 PM
I'm also very keen on seeing one in action. It looks promising.

I personally feel more comfortable with my Apple products. It's a bit like eating an expensive BigMac. Very familiar.

Heres the closest we have. Scroll down a bit for the video. There is a 20 second ad before it starts. There is another video down further.

http://www.techradar.com/news/mobile-computing/tablets/windows-8-tablets-release-date-specs-and-prices-916134

Here is another short video but not as good

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/default.aspx

thejadedmonkey
Jul 28, 2012, 12:21 PM
Even the base model of Surface running WinRT is $100 more expensive than the iPad, and that's without the keyboard cover.

Pricing for the surface hasn't been released yet. The only official word is that it will be priced comparably to other products on the market.

You have no way to quite a $100 premium over the iPad, as no price has been announced.

Stop spreading rumors.

Also, they never said if it was being sold with the keyboard cover, or if the keyboard cover was extra.

Renzatic
Jul 28, 2012, 01:20 PM
Well, when I tried the preview, I found it annoying to find myself being dumped into metro interface every so often. Like some system settings were only avaiable in metro, while others were in the traditional control panel. Yes it felt a bit more responsive than Win7, but not enough to make me want to go through the hassle of upgrading. If I was assured that I could totally turn off metro and never have to deal with it, then maybe. Otherwise, the constant UI switching is just too annoying.

I didn't like Win8 at first, either. After a couple of hours, I was panning it left and right. I still gave it a couple of weeks though, just because I didn't feel like rolling back to Win7 right away. Once I started getting the feel for it, I began appreciating some of the new things, and actually grew to like it.

Like the start menu being relegated to a hot corner. It seems dumb at first. Why take away the start orb just to move it slightly left and down and make it invisible? First off, the far corner is basically an infinite space. You can hit it without even thinking about it. Just slam your cursor down there, hit the left mouse button, and there you are. Plus it means the desktop behaves the same way as the Metro apps. You don't get to the Start menu differently from the desktop than you do the twitter app. It's all done the same way.

The charms? Eh. They're alright. Once you get used to the gesture to bring them up, it's no big deal (though I hear they're still hard to hit on dual screen setups). They do offer some nice features that are just a swipe away, so I ended up kinda liking them.

Then there's the Start menu itself. I probably took to it a little easier than others because I barely used the old Start menu. It was there to shut down my computer, shortcuts to rarely used but still nice to have around programs, or do type to searches. The new menu does the exact same thing, only now I can fit tons more on the screen, and organize it better. Type to searches are better for the same reason, too. More on the screen, easier to look through (though I do wish they had an "all" default when searching, instead of taking you directly to apps first, then forcing you to click to look through settings and files). It's a "your mileage may vary" type situation, but I don't find it to be the complete ruination of everything that is Windows like the naysayers are claiming. It's different, sure. But I find it a little better overall.

Course not everything is perfect. There are some goofy, goofy, goofy ass decisions MS made as far as the UI is concerned. Like doing a big marquee select on the desktop, and finding yourself accidentally "grabbing" the desktop window. Or how the Windows key doesn't cycle between the start menu and the desktop, but rather the start menu and the last used app. Or, like I said above, the lack of an "all" dialog box when searching. Pretty dumb stuff.

But anyway, blah blah blah. Long story short, it's not half bad. It's faster, smoother, and sleeker (for the most part). I wouldn't say it's a huge improvement over 7, but for $40, it's worth the upgrade.

iEvolution
Jul 28, 2012, 01:28 PM
What? It's faster, smoother, lighter, and works better overall. Start menu controversy aside...

The metro UI is good for tablets but there is no logical explanation as to why Microsoft would think this design would be good for a desktop/laptop environment. Nearly everything is complicated further for a desktop user under Windows 8.

I think there should have been two UI options put in, one that is similar to Windows 7 with all the performance yummies of 8. If not two separate interface functions for desktop users then two different versions.

The only thing that has been improved for desktop users is explorer as it now has the ribbon interface (I like to be able to tag frequently used functions) but even that would probably seem like a backwards step to some especially those who hated the ribbon interface in office.

There is more to Windows than performance improvements, I'd rather have a slight slowdown with better usability than a faster illogical windows 8.

I will probably get it just to learn it but for the avg joe, I cant see them loving it over Windows 7 considering the start menu has been the big go to menu for 17 years.

Night Spring
Jul 28, 2012, 01:35 PM
I didn't like Win8 at first, either. After a couple of hours, I was panning it left and right. I still gave it a couple of weeks though, just because I didn't feel like rolling back to Win7 right away. Once I started getting the feel for it, I began appreciating some of the new things, and actually grew to like it.

Like the start menu being relegated to a hot corner.

The start menu is the least of my concerns. Like you, I don't use it much anyway, and once you get used to it, it's not a big deal. My main problem is with the Metro interface, which I just don't like at all. I know it's getting praised a lot for being different, but I just personally don't like it. I don't think I'd take the trouble to downgrade to Win7 if I buy a new computer that came with Win8, but I won't bother upgrading an existing Win7 machine to Win8, even if Microsoft paid me $40.

Renzatic
Jul 28, 2012, 01:37 PM
Snip

Read what I said above. The metro start menu works as the inbetween space for the desktop and tablet app interfaces, and kinda has a "best of both worlds" thing going on.

Really, I don't understand why some people think this is so horrible (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3018396/Start_Menu.jpg). I've got all my various apps and settings pinned in there, it's all organized pretty well, and I can launch a search just by typing. I've even got a few live tiles in there for interesting news.

Also that cookbook app showed me how to make some really tasty breadsticks and sauce.

Like I said before, there is some goofy stuff going on in Win8, but it's still not half bad. There's a lot to like once you get used to it.

audix
Jul 28, 2012, 01:45 PM
For those who are worried about the long term effects Windows 8 may have on the industry...

Of course we can't use Windows 7 forever, but will Windows 7 become the next Windows XP? Not really.

Windows 8 is for that niche market, it's not for everybody, and with the gamble it is, I think there's still plenty of leg room before things go downhill. People will continue to release applications for Windows 7 and Windows 8.

You could stay on Windows 7 and just go straight to Windows 9. Windows 7 is not going anywhere.

Renzatic
Jul 28, 2012, 01:49 PM
The start menu is the least of my concerns. Like you, I don't use it much anyway, and once you get used to it, it's not a big deal. My main problem is with the Metro interface, which I just don't like at all. I know it's getting praised a lot for being different, but I just personally don't like it. I don't think I'd take the trouble to downgrade to Win7 if I buy a new computer that came with Win8, but I won't bother upgrading an existing Win7 machine to Win8, even if Microsoft paid me $40.

It's all to taste, man. I think it's all pretty decent myself, but I can easily understand why some don't like it. Metro apps as they are in Windows 8 are a little too big and unwieldy for the desktop. That's not to say it's bad for the desktop in general. The old Zune media player was the best example MS had of a Metro UI built for large, mouse driven desktops (and it kinda pisses me off that they didn't use it for the Music Player in Win8). If a developer builds their apps to take advantage of desktops, it works out really well.

Only problem is, if you don't like it, or don't ever get used to it, you're gonna have to move to another OS eventually. From Win8 on, it's gonna be all Metro all the time.

Night Spring
Jul 28, 2012, 01:56 PM
Only problem is, if you don't like it, or don't ever get used to it, you're gonna have to move to another OS eventually. From Win8 on, it's gonna be all Metro all the time.

Well, either Microsoft will work out the kinks with Win9, or I'll move on to Mac OS. :D I'm already using all Apple hardware anyway, but I've been using bootcamp to run Win7 because I do like Win7. But I'm heavily invested in the iOS ecosystem, and the more Apple integrates iOS with OS X, the more attractive that gets.

Renzatic
Jul 28, 2012, 02:04 PM
Snip

You know...I hate to admit it...but I've been kinda feeling the same way. Since getting my iPad, going whole hog for Apple has been getting more and more tempting.

...you didn't hear me say this, alright? If you bring it up, I'll deny it. :mad:

Beta Particle
Jul 28, 2012, 02:53 PM
Pricing for the surface hasn't been released yet. The only official word is that it will be priced comparably to other products on the market.

You have no way to quite a $100 premium over the iPad, as no price has been announced.Surface starts at 32GB, the "comparable" iPad is $600.

Microsoft do not have the production chain that Apple do, it will be a $600 device.

Also, they never said if it was being sold with the keyboard cover, or if the keyboard cover was extra.They are accessories, that's why they are removable, available in different colors, and different configurations. They will not be supplied with the device.

Renzatic
Jul 28, 2012, 03:02 PM
They are accessories, that's why they are removable, available in different colors, and different configurations. They will not be supplied with the device.

I can't quote where, but I do remember reading that it's a possibility that the Surface would ship with the non-clicky keyboard.

Beta Particle
Jul 28, 2012, 03:16 PM
I can't quote where, but I do remember reading that it's a possibility that the Surface would ship with the non-clicky keyboard.I can guarantee the base model will not ship with one. There may be bundles, and the Pro model might come with one, but the base model will not.

thejadedmonkey
Jul 28, 2012, 03:37 PM
I can guarantee the base model will not ship with one. There may be bundles, and the Pro model might come with one, but the base model will not.

Surface starts at 32GB, the "comparable" iPad is $600.

Microsoft do not have the production chain that Apple do, it will be a $600 device.

They are accessories, that's why they are removable, available in different colors, and different configurations. They will not be supplied with the device.

So you're talking out of your behind. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but simply that you have no proof to back up your facts.

Beta Particle
Jul 28, 2012, 03:55 PM
So you're talking out of your behind. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but simply that you have no proof to back up your facts.You can keep hoping I'm wrong, but there is no way Microsoft has two different versions of a removable keyboard cover, in several different colors, and are going to be shipping it in the box with the device—at least not on the $600 base model. If you think that, you have no idea how retail works, or how companies like this design and price products.

Microsoft aren't like Google who forego margins on products to try and undercut Apple. They believe this is a true competitor to the iPad and are going to price it accordingly.

There's no way they will be selling their 32GB tablet at $500 when Apple, with the best supply chain in the world, are selling a 16GB iPad at that price.

thejadedmonkey
Jul 28, 2012, 04:04 PM
You can keep hoping I'm wrong, but there is no way Microsoft has two different versions of a removable keyboard cover, in several different colors, and are going to be shipping it in the box with the device—at least not on the $600 base model. If you think that, you have no idea how retail works, or how companies like this design and price products.

Microsoft aren't like Google who forego margins on products to try and undercut Apple. They believe this is a true competitor to the iPad and are going to price it accordingly.

There's no way they will be selling their 32GB tablet at $500 when Apple, with the best supply chain in the world, are selling a 16GB iPad at that price.

Microsoft never sold anything as a loss leader. riiiiight. (http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/video-games-gaming/xbox-360-as-loss-leader.asp)

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that the facts to base such an assumption off of are not on your side.

Technarchy
Jul 28, 2012, 11:17 PM
Microsoft never sold anything as a loss leader. riiiiight. (http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/video-games-gaming/xbox-360-as-loss-leader.asp)

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that the facts to base such an assumption off of are not on your side.

Keep in mind that the video game console business uses a Razor/Razor blade sales model, where the console is sold at a loss, but the markup on software is higher to offset the loss and make a profit.

Also, all games sold, irrespective of maker, pay a licensing fee to the hardware maker.

Beta Particle
Jul 28, 2012, 11:39 PM
Microsoft never sold anything as a loss leader. riiiiight. (http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/video-games-gaming/xbox-360-as-loss-leader.asp)

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that the facts to base such an assumption off of are not on your side.As Technarchy says, the console business is a completely different market, where the primary revenue streams come from licensing fees and software sales, not hardware sales. Microsoft is a relative newcomer to the market (the Xbox 360 was only their second console) and had to do this in order to be successful, as their entertainment division was hemorrhaging cash after the failure of the original Xbox and the Zune.

Nintendo are the only company that makes a profit selling hardware (at least not until years down the line with cheaper hardware revisions) and even they had to abandon this model and cut the price of the 3DS below its manufacturing costs to gain enough marketshare.


The Windows tablet market on the other hand is not something where Microsoft has to dominate on the hardware side. They sell the operating system at a cost of $85 to OEMs making their own hardware, and profit off that. It is not in their interests to sell hardware at a loss to drive partners' products off the market.

What having their own hardware should hopefully do though, is create a standard by which all other Windows tablets should be judged, and force other manufacturers to design top quality hardware in order to compete, unlike a lot of the crap Android tablets out there on the market where it's simply a race to the bottom.