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MacRumors
Jul 2, 2012, 12:33 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/02/apple-facing-potential-suspension-of-italian-sales-amid-warranty-concerns/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/07/applecare_box-150x132.jpg

Late last year, Apple was fined $1.2 million (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/12/27/apple-fined-1-2-million-in-italy-over-warranty-disclosure-issues/) by Italian regulators over warranty-related issues, with Apple being cited for not adequately disclosing standard two-year warranties required to be offered with new products sold in the country.

Following the ruling, Apple temporarily added disclosures (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/01/27/apple-offers-statement-on-warranty-disclosures-to-italian-customers/) to its Italian online store even as it was appealing the decision. Apple officially lost its appeal (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/03/22/apple-loses-appeal-in-italian-warranty-disclosures-case/) earlier this year, with the company being required to pay the previously-assessed fine.

Reuters now reports (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/02/apple-italy-antitrust-idUSL6E8I2FRD20120702) that Italian regulators remain concerned about Apple's sales and marketing tactics and are considering additional fines and an eventual temporary ban on Apple's ability to sell products in the country as further sanctions.The AGCM said in its monthly bulletin that Apple was continuing to adopt unfair commercial practices in Italy and noted this could eventually lead to the closure of its Italian operations for up to 30 days.

The U.S. group has 30 days to respond.

The AGCM alleges that information provided by Apple about an extra guarantee scheme encourages customers to buy the service without clearly explaining that the company is obliged to offer a two-year free warranty, the source said.Italy is not the only country where Apple is facing criticism over its warranty policies. Earlier this year, consumer groups in eleven European Union countries filed letters of complaint (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/03/20/european-consumer-groups-criticize-apples-warranties/) with their respective regulatory agencies asking them to take action against Apple's misleading warranty sales tactics in light of the EU's requirement for a standard two-year warranty. The company clarified (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/03/30/apple-clarifies-warranty-coverage-options-for-customers-in-european-union/) the differences between EU protection and Apple's warranty policies, but concerns about its disclosures apparently still remain.

Update: Apple takes issue (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/03/apple-italy-idUSL6E8I3AOD20120703) with the Italian antitrust authority, saying in a statement:
We have introduced a number of measures to address the Italian competition authority concerns and we disagree with their latest complaint.

Article Link: Apple Facing Potential Suspension of Italian Sales Amid Warranty Concerns (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/02/apple-facing-potential-suspension-of-italian-sales-amid-warranty-concerns/)



ualymerej
Jul 2, 2012, 12:35 PM
Apple is getting in trouble because customers can't read?

wordoflife
Jul 2, 2012, 12:36 PM
It's good that they (the Italian regulators) are bringing this up because this is something many EU customers aren't aware of and end up unnecessarily buying Apple Care.
Apple is getting in trouble because customers can't read?
Because they aren't well informed enough.

guerro
Jul 2, 2012, 12:37 PM
Is there any wonder why Italy's economy is in the *******? Toilet? Crapper?

Peace
Jul 2, 2012, 12:38 PM
Apple is getting in trouble because customers can't read?

No. Apple is getting into trouble because of the standard 2 year warranty AND the fact that people can't read very,very tiny print.

applesith
Jul 2, 2012, 12:38 PM
Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

wordoflife
Jul 2, 2012, 12:39 PM
Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

I agree. Ultimately, this is one of the reasons why some products cost [a lot] more in different countries.

Changed thoughts and disagree.

C00rDiNaT0r
Jul 2, 2012, 12:40 PM
Yea that one extra year warranty makes a lot of difference.

How do people usually arrive to the conclusion of whether they need the AppleCare? Do they just take the salespersons' word for it? Don't the packaging of the products themselves (Macs, iPods, etc.) already tell customers what the standard warranty policy is?

habubauza
Jul 2, 2012, 12:40 PM
Let the shake downs begin! Tim Cook is not a fighter like Steve Jobs. He hates courts and prefers to settle. It is one of the worst positions to telegraph in an increasingly litigious and intellectual property contentious environment. You will see the scum of the scum trying to exploit Apple. The commies in China did it, with more to follow!

Peace
Jul 2, 2012, 12:41 PM
Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

A 2 year warranty also helps weed out the planned obsolescence of some products.

organerito
Jul 2, 2012, 12:41 PM
There are lots of people that don't watch any foreign movies because the subtitles are too fast. :eek::eek:I know many in the in the USA and Canada just like that.

You cannot imagine how boring and difficult it is to read for some people.

BC2009
Jul 2, 2012, 12:41 PM
Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

Bingo! It just means higher prices in the EU. Somebody has to pay for these warranties whether or not they are government-imposed. I say that Apple just raises the price by 10% across the board and gets really specific about what warranty comes with the product and what is included in AppleCare. The 10% hike in price should more than make up for the loss of AppleCare sales.

Feed Me
Jul 2, 2012, 12:42 PM
inb4 'mericans.

applesith
Jul 2, 2012, 12:43 PM
Is there any wonder why Italy's economy is in the *******? Toilet? Crapper?

Exactly. I'm a proud Italian-American. I love Italy and it's culture and people. But their government and economic policies are so backwards.

Oletros
Jul 2, 2012, 12:44 PM
Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

This is another discussion

ericrwalker
Jul 2, 2012, 12:44 PM
Apple is getting in trouble because customers can't read?

Now now, it's possible they are putting the fine print in English.

Kaibelf
Jul 2, 2012, 12:44 PM
It's good that they (the Italian regulators) are bringing this up because this is something many EU customers aren't aware of and end up unnecessarily buying Apple Care.

Because they aren't well informed enough.

NONSENSE. It's not APPLE'S job to inform the Italian public about standard Italian law. It's their government's job. What are they doing, aside from the whole underage scandal thing?

nsayer
Jul 2, 2012, 12:46 PM
I think Apple should call their bluff and just pull out of Italy, including closing all of the iTunes, app and book stores.

I rather suspect it wouldn't be long before there was a new set of regulators overseeing that section of the Italian government.

Oletros
Jul 2, 2012, 12:47 PM
Exactly. I'm a proud Italian-American. I love Italy and it's culture and people. But their government and economic policies are so backwards.

It is an EU directive, not an Italian law, try again

wonderspark
Jul 2, 2012, 12:48 PM
Seems easy enough for Apple to just play along. Offer a two year warranty, and clearly state it where necessary.

Oletros
Jul 2, 2012, 12:48 PM
NONSENSE. It's not APPLE'S job to inform the Italian public about standard Italian law. It's their government's job. What are they doing, aside from the whole underage scandal thing?

It's Apple (and whatever other company) job to inform in a right way and not to try to obscure the law term to sell extended guarantees.

Formul
Jul 2, 2012, 12:48 PM
I don't know how in Italy, but around me even every small child or elderly knows things have mandatory 2 years warranty. Also we are not stupid and can read.

gpat
Jul 2, 2012, 12:49 PM
Apple is getting in trouble because customers can't read?

Apple is getting in trouble because its executives can't read. The law.

----------

I think Apple should call their bluff and just pull out of Italy, including closing all of the iTunes, app and book stores.

I rather suspect it wouldn't be long before there was a new set of regulators overseeing that section of the Italian government.

How is that better than following the law like any other company and actually making a benefit to the consumer?

DWilliamson5002
Jul 2, 2012, 12:51 PM
Apple should just close up shop and leave Italy. Just say "You know what you win Italy, we just won't sell products in your country."

Oletros
Jul 2, 2012, 12:52 PM
I think Apple should call their bluff and just pull out of Italy, including closing all of the iTunes, app and book stores.

I rather suspect it wouldn't be long before there was a new set of regulators overseeing that section of the Italian government.

Apple should just close up shop and leave Italy. Just say "You know what you win Italy, we just won't sell products in your country."

It is an EU directive, perhaps Apple should call their bluff and just pull out of all the EU


How is that better than following the law like any other company and actually making a benefit to the consumer?

In reality, they are joking, nobody can say something like that with a straight face

gpat
Jul 2, 2012, 12:53 PM
Apple should just close up shop and leave Italy. Just say "You know what you win Italy, we just won't sell products in your country."

Uhm, I think they are supposed to maximize profits, not act childish.

Rocketman
Jul 2, 2012, 12:53 PM
Simple. Charge a 10% premium in Italy under the same scheme as currency adjustments, offer the 2 year warranty requested, and make very clear to the Italian public when and how to give feedback to the government about the unreasonable portions of law or regulation. Let the locals enjoy all costs and benefits.

Let them know pricing is connected to local rules including standards, fines and tarrifs. Give the example of Brazil tarrifs as an extreme example.

Rocketman

botinhas
Jul 2, 2012, 12:53 PM
It's good that they (the Italian regulators) are bringing this up because this is something many EU customers aren't aware of and end up unnecessarily buying Apple Care.

Because they aren't well informed enough.

After so much time with the 2 years warranty police in place, if there is someone in Europe who doesn't know that, maybe he/she shouldn't be eligible to buy an Apple product (or any other product)!

This is what happens when a beautiful brand with divine products becomes mass marketed... :(

smellalot
Jul 2, 2012, 12:53 PM
Apple is getting in trouble because customers can't read?

No, because they're trying to make you believe that you only have a one year warranty.

NONSENSE. It's not APPLE'S job to inform the Italian public about standard Italian law. It's their government's job. What are they doing, aside from the whole underage scandal thing?

True. But the point is that Apple is lying about the warranty laws in EU.

gnasher729
Jul 2, 2012, 12:53 PM
Seems easy enough for Apple to just play along. Offer a two year warranty, and clearly state it where necessary.

Apple has no obligation at all to offer any manufacturer's warranty on any products. However, stores, including Apple stores, have are responsible for the products they sell (claiming this means "two years warranty" is oversimplifying it). On all products they sell.

So an Apple Store selling a Canon printer has to fix problems with the Canon printer, probably for two years. And if PCWorld sells an iMac, PCWorld has to fix problems with the iMac, probably for two years as well.


No, because they're trying to make you believe that you only have a one year warranty.
Which is absolutely true. One year manufacturer's warranty.

True. But the point is that Apple is lying about the warranty laws in EU.
Please demonstrate where they do that.

Poisednoise
Jul 2, 2012, 12:54 PM
Apple clearly don't subscribe to the "When in Rome..." adage.

gpat
Jul 2, 2012, 12:54 PM
Simple. Charge a 10% premium in Italy under the same scheme as currency adjustments, offer the 2 year warranty requested, and make very clear to the Italian public when and how to give feedback to the government about the unreasonable portions of law or regulation. Let the locals enjoy all costs and benefits.

Let them know pricing is connected to local rules including standards, fines and tarrifs. Give the example of Brazil tarrifs as an extreme example.

Rocketman

They already charged a 10% premium, even a little more. The baseline MBA increased from 949€ to 1069€ here with the last revision. Same with every other Macbook.

russofris
Jul 2, 2012, 12:54 PM
NONSENSE. It's not APPLE'S job to inform the Italian public about standard Italian law. It's their government's job. What are they doing, aside from the whole underage scandal thing?


While Apple is under no obligation to inform the customer of the two-year mandatory warranty, they may-not advertise a lesser warranty in order to compel consumers to purchase Applecare. They must also honor the two-year warranty when customers submit a claim.

What Apple did or did not do, and whether it was intentionally done to increase Applecare sales is now up to the Italian courts.

I have no idea why the Italian government would ban sales of a consumer device, seeing that the language on the website was already changed, and the fine already paid. Is there a real reason, or is the Italian government simply trying to siphon off some of Apple's cash?

F

Dr McKay
Jul 2, 2012, 12:55 PM
Apple is getting in trouble because customers can't read?

No, they're in trouble because they were still pushing customers toward AppleCare when it was largely worthless.

applesith
Jul 2, 2012, 12:55 PM
It is an EU directive, not an Italian law, try again

Duh, it's part of the EU. And the EU is pretty backwards. No need to be a jerk

britboyj
Jul 2, 2012, 12:56 PM
Now they have the disclaimer up, can we get some detail on exactly HOW Apple is misleading customers into buying AppleCare?

That seems like an important factor here. If you're selling it as BETTER coverage (covers phone support, software, battery, etc.) than the limited 2-year warranty, then you're not doing anything wrong.

If you're selling it by saying the standard 2-year doesn't apply to your product, that's a different matter entirely.

gt1948
Jul 2, 2012, 12:56 PM
No big loss Apple... hold your position and see who blinks first, bet it's the Itai Gov't

Oletros
Jul 2, 2012, 12:57 PM
WOW! Calm down dude. First look at the poverty conditions in Europe vs. US. And yes we are in the crapper because we have open boarders.

Yap, and European borders are closed, aren't they?

macintoshi
Jul 2, 2012, 12:58 PM
Apple should just close up shop and leave Italy. Just say "You know what you win Italy, we just won't sell products in your country." Exactly italian dont need it even, that ****** apple, microsoft is an option, and linux too!

Stella
Jul 2, 2012, 12:59 PM
Apple, you need to follow the laws of the country you are trading in. If you can't, then stop trading in that location.

Consumer Laws are great, BTW. The u.s consumer laws are lacking.

vincebio
Jul 2, 2012, 01:00 PM
Apple is getting in trouble because customers can't read?

Lol at the fanboy statement if i have ever seen one...

I love Apple, but sadly they are not the only company that try and hide the fact that in the EU, a 2 year free warranty is required by Law.

We dont care so much because Applecare takes care of that year anyway and is such a great weapon to have...

But they should be honest about it.

HelveticaRoman
Jul 2, 2012, 01:02 PM
Apple is getting in trouble because customers can't read?

I can read Latin, but I don't understand a word of it.

aristotle
Jul 2, 2012, 01:02 PM
It is an EU directive, perhaps Apple should call their bluff and just pull out of all the EU

Saying something twice does not make it more true. It is actually an italian interpretation of an EU directive. Apple is not in trouble in all EU countries, only ones that are looking to shake down Apple for money. EU countries are not required to enforce all of those directives in the same way.

I think you are also a bit confused about the directive. The directive refers to the "retailer". The retailer is required to supply a two year warranty, not the manufacturer. Apple can simply raise their prices in EU countries demanding two year warranties and withdrawing the offer for "applecare" or offer an additional 3rd year warranty under the "applecare" moniker.

Galatian
Jul 2, 2012, 01:02 PM
I can't believe what I'm reading here...

First: This is European law NOT Italian.

Second: If you Americans are willing to pay so much money for gadgets that are only garrantied to run for...what?...90 days...go ahead...no wonder NOBODY except Americans purchase ****** American cars...

Third: The law actually states that in the first year of warranty the producer has to prove the user was handling it wrong, whilst the second year the user has to prove there was a material problem.

Fourth: I just purchased a new MacBook Air and decides against paying over 200€ for one additional year of warranty. What's the chance of a part failing in three year when it hasn't in the two years before? It's more like you have accidental damage or it get's stolen. I rather use the money to buy an insurance in that case.

Fifth: We have a lot of gadget that last decades...think Miele Washmachines...I actually expect them to hold out that long and Miele actually does give you their own 5 year warranty on it as many other manufactures do...Apple is cheeping out on everything to keep their high profit margin. They could easily give you a 5 year warranty as well, but why bother if you have sheeps like you fools you actually think THIS is the reason why Italian economy is bad.

Sixth: On that matter. It is actually a crisis of mostly banks here in Europe...and guess where it started: America...Sublime credits anyone? Just so that you guys can buy crappy houses and ****** car's that you really couldn't afford (including Apple products) the entire world economy has been screwed...So do us the favor and think before giving smart answers...

Seventh: Oh and Apple product are more expensive because of our VAT...we have 19% here in Germany...US has what?...0-10%?

smellalot
Jul 2, 2012, 01:05 PM
Please demonstrate where they do that.

There you go.

brdeveloper
Jul 2, 2012, 01:07 PM
Apple is getting in trouble because customers can't read?

If a country has two years of warranty as default, Apple can't offer only one-year warranty. When it establishes in a foreign country, the minimum requirement is following local regulations.

logandzwon
Jul 2, 2012, 01:09 PM
Please keep in mind, the law applies to the retailer, not the manufacture. Apple can simply close, or sell to a local 3rd party, it's retails stores and they would be 100% compliant.

Considering there is a big difference between the 1 year manufacture's warranty + EU protection guarantee VS. 3 years of AppleCare, and that Apple now clearly displays this in every retail front they have there... I'm really not sure what more the Italian government wants from them.

Oletros
Jul 2, 2012, 01:09 PM
Saying something twice does not make it more true. It is actually an italian interpretation of an EU directive. Apple is not in trouble in all EU countries, only ones that are looking to shake down Apple for money. EU countries are not required to enforce all of those directives in the same way.

Right, directives regulates the minimum, different countries can extend what they say.

I think you are also a bit confused about the directive. The directive refers to the "retailer". The retailer is required to supply a two year warranty, not the manufacturer

How I'm confused? Apple is the retailer in the Apple Online Store and in their Apple Stores and there is were they were fined.

Asclepio
Jul 2, 2012, 01:10 PM
No. Apple is getting into trouble because of the standard 2 year warranty AND the fact that people can't read very,very tiny print.

they are stunning with the new retina display.

mudman2
Jul 2, 2012, 01:12 PM
Apple did not buy the Mozzarella from the right people

;)

forget about it

kfscoll
Jul 2, 2012, 01:13 PM
I can't believe what I'm reading here...

First: This is European law NOT Italian.

Second: If you Americans are willing to pay so much money for gadgets that are only garrantied to run for...what?...90 days...go ahead...no wonder NOBODY except Americans purchase ****** American cars...

Third: The law actually states that in the first year of warranty the producer has to prove the user was handling it wrong, whilst the second year the user has to prove there was a material problem.

Fourth: I just purchased a new MacBook Air and decides against paying over 200€ for one additional year of warranty. What's the chance of a part failing in three year when it hasn't in the two years before? It's more like you have accidental damage or it get's stolen. I rather use the money to buy an insurance in that case.

Fifth: We have a lot of gadget that last decades...think Miele Washmachines...I actually expect them to hold out that long and Miele actually does give you their own 5 year warranty on it as many other manufactures do...Apple is cheeping out on everything to keep their high profit margin. They could easily give you a 5 year warranty as well, but why bother if you have sheeps like you fools you actually think THIS is the reason why Italian economy is bad.

Sixth: On that matter. It is actually a crisis of mostly banks here in Europe...and guess where it started: America...Sublime credits anyone? Just so that you guys can buy crappy houses and ****** car's that you really couldn't afford (including Apple products) the entire world economy has been screwed...So do us the favor and think before giving smart answers...

You must be kidding. American cars certainly aren't the greatest things since sliced bread, but implying that German cars are more reliable? Please. And let's not even talk about the reliability of Italian cars.

As a matter of fact, the highest-rated German car (in terms of reliability) per Consumer Reports' 2012 rankings is the BWM X3...which is built in Spartansburg, South Carolina, USA.

If you're going to insult my country because of your ignorance, look the ****** out. At a bare minimum, get your facts straight.

Tell ya what. You keep your cars and washing machines, and we'll keep our computers. How's that?

Torrijos
Jul 2, 2012, 01:14 PM
Apple is getting in trouble because customers can't read?

Funny I came to say this ^^

Piccoloale
Jul 2, 2012, 01:14 PM
Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

I think we've always paid the 2 years warranty since the exchange rate $/€ is always 1:1 (if not worse) and it never follow the real forex exchange.

brdeveloper
Jul 2, 2012, 01:15 PM
Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

Let the people choose if they want buying broken products and try asking for a replacement afterwards. You can't compare the one-year warranty in USA with one-year warranty in other countries.

In US, the consumer is much more respected because of the high penalties in a lost lawsuit by a company. Usually the standard one-year warranty can be surpassed if an abnormal defect in assembly processes are detected. Recalls happen a lot in USA and maybe the "almost non-defective" units are exported to other countries where the standard 1-year warranty is much less powerful than the american 1-year warranty.

manu chao
Jul 2, 2012, 01:22 PM
It is an EU directive, not an Italian law, try again
It as an EU directive but it is an Italian law that implements it and gives it legal force. And the Italian law can differ from the EU directive in that it offers additional consumer protection. Just look at the footnotes in this document:
http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/
Quite a number of countries have additional provisions that go beyond the EU directive (mainly in that the burden of proof rests with the seller beyond the minimum of six months).

----------

NONSENSE. It's not APPLE'S job to inform the Italian public about standard Italian law. It's their government's job. What are they doing, aside from the whole underage scandal thing?
No, it is the requirement of Apple when it sells AppleCare to spell out clearly what is the additional value of it. If it fails to mention the two-year limited warranty, it is employing false advertising as it would be implying that there is no protection at all beyond one year.

ikramerica
Jul 2, 2012, 01:25 PM
The issue here is that the law is a 2-year warranty enforceable against the merchant, not the manufacturer.

This is important because it would be impossible for the governments to monitor and control every manufacturer from every country for compliance.

What Apple is offering is an extension of THEIR warranty from 1-3 years on computers, 1-2 years on iDevices, where they take care of everything. That includes phone support for 2/3 years instead of 90 days, repair and replacement of products, etc. This is not the same thing as what the 2-year warranty provides.

That Italy claims otherwise is a shakedown effort. They want Apple to bribe them. This is how it works in Italy (and much of the world, including smaller towns in the USA). Bribes and kangaroo courts.

It will all be sorted out. Italy will raise the fine and they won't grant an stay on appeal, so Apple will have to pay the fine in order to stay in business, even during their next appeal.

hamean
Jul 2, 2012, 01:26 PM
Fifth: We have a lot of gadget that last decades...think Miele Washmachines...I actually expect them to hold out that long and Miele actually does give you their own 5 year warranty on it as many other manufactures do...Apple is cheeping out on everything to keep their high profit margin. They could easily give you a 5 year warranty as well, but why bother if you have sheeps like you fools you actually think THIS is the reason why Italian economy is bad.

Sixth: On that matter. It is actually a crisis of mostly banks here in Europe...and guess where it started: America...Sublime credits anyone? Just so that you guys can buy crappy houses and ****** car's that you really couldn't afford (including Apple products) the entire world economy has been screwed...So do us the favor and think before giving smart answers...

Ok, so you want (1) to buy a laptop with a 5 year warranty and (2) to blame the USA for the EU going down in flames.... good luck finding a laptop with a 5 year warranty. I agree with you that there has been gross financial mismanagement in the USA; but don't blame us for the world's problems. The EU sets its own fiscal policy.

joepunk
Jul 2, 2012, 01:27 PM
Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

How is a two year warranty raising prices for "everyone"?

I don't have a problem with paying for extra warranty as long as the price is right. I did that when I purchased my Powerbook G4 and it came in handy because I needed the screen replaced twice. But for a $2000+ Apple product an extra year would be nice. Then just as your two years is about to end you can purchase another two years. I could go with that.

Heck fyi, my $20 coffee pot comes with a two year warranty. I know that's a very different product and service but I thought is was worth mentioning.

rcopus
Jul 2, 2012, 01:28 PM
your cars and washing machines, and we'll keep our computers. How's that?
Apple computers are made in the US now? When did that happen? :p

Galatian
Jul 2, 2012, 01:28 PM
You must be kidding. American cars certainly aren't the greatest things since sliced bread, but implying that German cars are more reliable? Please. And let's not even talk about the reliability of Italian cars.

As a matter of fact, the highest-rated German car (in terms of reliability) per Consumer Reports' 2012 rankings is the BWM X3...which is built in Spartansburg, South Carolina, USA.

If you're going to insult my country because of your ignorance, look the ****** out. At a bare minimum, get your facts straight.

Tell ya what. You keep your cars and washing machines, and we'll keep our computers. How's that?

Ahhhh...were did I suggest anything remotely like that? It's all made in China anyway...my point was, that a lot of people here on MacRumors make it sound like it's a good thing to have less warranty, because American companies have them brainwashed or whatever...I gladly buy a product from a company that gives me a long warranty...that just shows that they are confident in their owns product...

Oh and please...Apple products are made in China as well...

Bezetos
Jul 2, 2012, 01:30 PM
Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

I personally would expect every product I buy to last at least two years.

If I were to pay extra that would be for insurance.

Galatian
Jul 2, 2012, 01:31 PM
Ok, so you want (1) to buy a laptop with a 5 year warranty and (2) to blame the USA for the EU going down in flames.... good luck finding a laptop with a 5 year warranty. I agree with you that there has been gross financial mismanagement in the USA; but don't blame us for the world's problems. The EU sets its own fiscal policy.

True and this is completely off-topic, BUT it all started with the sublime banking crisis and I completely disagree on how the EU handles all that (guess what...they keep pouring more money to those poor poor banks...). But the US is not making it any better with the way they are making debts and especially with those rating houses...

foobarbaz
Jul 2, 2012, 01:31 PM
I'm tired of people discussing the wrong issue whenever this topic comes up.

The EU doesn't simply mandate "two years of warranty" that is equivalent to AppleCare. EU warranty only applies to defects that already existed at the time of sale. And after 6 months, the customer has to prove that the defect existed back then. The effective warranty (i.e. the one 99% of people get to use) is 6 months.

Also, the warranty has to provided by the seller, not the manufacturer.

manu chao
Jul 2, 2012, 01:31 PM
Simple. Charge a 10% premium in Italy under the same scheme as currency adjustments, offer the 2 year warranty requested.

You are not getting it, aren't you? It is not about offering the two-year warranty, Apple already offers it. It is about Apple advertising it clearly enough that it offers it.

Mitochris
Jul 2, 2012, 01:31 PM
I guess one shouldn't forget that the two year warranty, or better 1+1, also benefits consumers outside of the EU. It forces companies to produce products that are more likely to survive two years. I doubt that apple or many others use cheaper components for their computers/products shipped outside of the EU, so the benefit trickles over to other consumers too. So these "crappy EU laws" also benefit the consumer in the US.
The directive was supposed to protect EU consumers from cheap products flooding the markets. And no, they didn't have premium computers in mind when passing this directive.

GenesisST
Jul 2, 2012, 01:36 PM
I can read Latin, but I don't understand a word of it.

Surprising, given your username ... :cool:

unlinked
Jul 2, 2012, 01:37 PM
It is an EU directive, perhaps Apple should call their bluff and just pull out of all the EU


I'm sure Apple are going to pull out of an economy that is about the same size as the US. Sure. See that happening.

pandamonia
Jul 2, 2012, 01:38 PM
Is there any wonder why Italy's economy is in the *******? Toilet? Crapper?

Last time i checked so was yours.

ScoobyMcDoo
Jul 2, 2012, 01:38 PM
So, I'm curious, do European companies push these extended warranties? Here in the US, we are hounded to buy them for just about everything but groceries. Personally, I never buy them as I realize that they are all a rip-off.

Kurwenal
Jul 2, 2012, 01:39 PM
Just so that you guys can buy crappy houses and ****** car's that you really couldn't afford (including Apple products) the entire world economy has been screwed

I'm confused. Is the "Apple products" the house or the car?

Oracle1729
Jul 2, 2012, 01:40 PM
So, Apple gets slapped down a bit for breaking the laws in a country where it chooses to do business. And hundreds of people flock here to say Apple was right and the other country's laws are wrong. It doesn't matter it's their country, they make the rules, Apple can obey them or not do business there.

Steve Jobs was a genius to build up such a base of blind rabid fans.

lilo777
Jul 2, 2012, 01:41 PM
It's funny how so many Americans (and I am one of them) are concerned about European laws. Clearly they want the best for you Europeans. And while we are at it, in addition to scrapping this particular law, we also want you to drop your ridiculous 2 months vacations (keep it within one week like we do here), your labor protection laws, support for International Criminals Court, support for UN, support for common sense in general. :D

manu chao
Jul 2, 2012, 01:42 PM
There you go.
http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=346263&d=1341252287

Exactly, that would be what can be called misleading advertising. Except that I don't find that graphic on the Italian Apple website. Here is the main page on AppleCare which has a very small footnote (**) explaining the two-year warranty:
http://www.apple.com/it/support/products/

That footnote however is missing on the next page:
http://store.apple.com/it/browse/home/applecare

This whole discussion is one about nuances, ie, how prominent the explanation of the two-year warranty has to be. Without actually having read the Italian decision, we don't really know what exactly they want Apple to do. Just that they want Apple to do more than it currently does.

Kwill
Jul 2, 2012, 01:43 PM
Apple, it's a well-articualated table that describes the coverage differences.

The problem is that Italy's government is used to just two consumer choices:

2-year government required coverage
2-year government required coverage

What is this AppleCare of which you speak?

sinser
Jul 2, 2012, 01:44 PM
I'm italian and I won't defend Apple. Only in recent times they have written clearly, ,here (http://www.apple.com/it/legal/statutory-warranty/), that you get the 2 year European warranty. In the past there was no mention about, only about the 1 year warranty that could be extended through Apple Care.

pandamonia
Jul 2, 2012, 01:49 PM
Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

I REALLY hope your stuff brakes after 13 months. I REALLY DO!

----------

If apple could get away with offering 90 days warranty they would.

In the UK for a £2000 laptop Apple could be forced to fix a defect up to 5 years after purchase. This is because the price of the item affects how long it should reasonably work for after purchase.

As long as you dont drop it or spill stuff on it then generally its impossible for apple to prove that you broke it. Especially if a SSD or CPU or GPU or Screen dies.

Yanks are just pissy because they have no protection

wkadamsjr
Jul 2, 2012, 01:50 PM
More than a few of you are dismissing the fact AppleCare on computers extends the warranty an additional two years for a total of 3. When you throw in the phone support as well, I think the AppleCare is far distinguished from the standard one-year manufacturer's warranty, and the two-year warranty required by the EU.

elolaugesen
Jul 2, 2012, 01:50 PM
Apple and other companies are frequently asked why their prices are higher in some countries than others??

Well the retail price of the product should be increased to reflect the two year warranty. and then reduce the additional apple warranty accordingly.

bottom line anyone buying the product and the warranty will pay the same.

cheers

lilo777
Jul 2, 2012, 01:50 PM
Apple, it's a well-articualated table that describes the coverage differences.

The problem is that Italy's government is used to just two consumer choices:

2-year government required coverage
2-year government required coverage

What is this AppleCare of which you speak?

Funny, right? But wait... Nobody prevents Apple from offering additional warranties - just like in US. Did you know that in US we also have government mandated minimum warranties? It's just way less than 2 years. I US we like to screw the little guy. Why require companies to offer 2 year warranties for free when they can do it for $200? Let rich guys be rich. We'll give food stamps to all the rest.

Jonesy135
Jul 2, 2012, 01:52 PM
Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.


so you think people should pay extra so they can ensure they their kit doesnt break.... if you buy something (especially over £1000s worth of computer) it should work for atleast a couple of years.... you shouldnt have to pay extra to ensure this

wackymacky
Jul 2, 2012, 01:57 PM
There you go.

Gee, did'nt know they spoke German in Italy.

But your point is right. Apple have done this on a number if occasions (eg with the advertising of the '4G features of new iPad in non supported countries). They use the same medi promotions across countries without indiviualising to the local environment.

As for saying the Italians should learn how to read, well that's a bit harsh comming from those whow live in such a litigious country as the USA.

manu chao
Jul 2, 2012, 01:58 PM
Well the retail price of the product should be increased to reflect the two year warranty. and then reduce the additional apple warranty accordingly.

The retail price is already increased but the additional Apple warranty costs about the same (in percentage terms).

realeric
Jul 2, 2012, 01:59 PM
Simple.

Apple: This iPhone is $599 and 1 year extra warranty is $39(wholesale price) = $638
Italian: (&Q@#(*#&WTF. Unhappy.

Apple: This iPhone is $638 including 2 year warranty.
Italian: Happy.

Apple: This iPhone is $638 including 2 year warranty.
American: Unhappy.

Apple: This iPhone is $599 and 1 year extra warranty is $39(wholesale price) = $638
American: (&Q@#(*#&WTF. Unhappy.

Apple: This iPhone is $599. Optional 1 year extra warranty is $69(resale price).
American: Happy.

apolloa
Jul 2, 2012, 02:01 PM
Now now Apple, Europe is NOT America, we do not have 3 months warranty....

Using mis selling tactics ignoring the law of the land equals fines and bans from the government agencies..

It's pretty despicable for a company as rich and big as Apple to try and flout that law of the land with mis selling.

Apple seems to have a habit of mis selling in Europe, but that's ok because the governments have a habit of fining and banning companies who practice that. Eventually they'll get fed up and hit them hard. They did it with Microsoft...

Sue De Nimes
Jul 2, 2012, 02:10 PM
Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

Do you really think it is unreasonable to expect a computer costing maybe £2000 to last for more than 12 months?

baryon
Jul 2, 2012, 02:12 PM
I'm tired of Apple ignoring compulsory warranties, they pretend it doesn't apply to them or something! It should be just as easy to get a faulty product fixed within two years than it is within a year, and they simply say that you're out of warranty after a year, which isn't true.

All I want is products that last more than a year. You can't be expected to buy a new Apple computer every year, that's just stupid.

By ignoring warranty, they are basically saying "We can't promise that your £2000 computer will work in a year, and that you won't have to buy a new one yourself." I can buy a car for that price that has 7 years of warranty! And Apple products tend to fail a lot more than they should in my experience.

Pretty much anything you buy has at least 2 or 3 years of warranty: cameras, hard drives, etc… And it makes sense, you expect these things to last for a few years, since you paid loads for them and it's not something you need to buy every year.

champ01
Jul 2, 2012, 02:12 PM
I think Apple should call their bluff and just pull out of Italy, including closing all of the iTunes, app and book stores.

I rather suspect it wouldn't be long before there was a new set of regulators overseeing that section of the Italian government.

Sure let companies rule the world....
We all know how that turned out. ;)

If Apple says their products are of great quality then they should give it the warranty.

If they don't it just shows how greedy Apple is.

kingtj
Jul 2, 2012, 02:17 PM
Requiring a 2 year warranty in order to sell a product in your country does strike me as "stupid". But only because I'm a believer in the "free market". Personally, I feel that government intervention almost always does more harm than good when it extends beyond guaranteeing the most basic of protections. (EG. I'm not necessarily against a "truth in labeling" law, because really, you're only enforcing the requirement that a seller honestly state the nature of what's being sold. It helps ensure a buyer can make an educated decision as to what he/she wants to purchase.)

That said, I live in the U.S.A. where I think the majority of us still believe in such ideas (even when our politicians don't always practice them because they cave in to special interests).

If I had a company in the U.S.A. doing international business, I'd have to realize there are a lot of costs and "gotchas" with selling goods or services elsewhere... So yeah, if this is the law and Apple keeps trying to dodge it? It's Apple's problem. Sucks for them they have such an ingrained business model of offering 1 year warranties and AppleCare options to add 2 more -- but obviously, that's incompatible with Italy's rules of commerce.


Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

champ01
Jul 2, 2012, 02:18 PM
BTW... I bought my 17" MBP and got 3 years warranty (without apple care)
Why??? BECAUSE ITS A 2500,- EURO LAPTOP THATS WHY!!!

Oletros
Jul 2, 2012, 02:19 PM
Image (http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=346263&d=1341252287)

Exactly, that would be what can be called misleading advertising. Except that I don't find that graphic on the Italian Apple website. Here is the main page on AppleCare which has a very small footnote (**) explaining the two-year warranty:
http://www.apple.com/it/support/products/

That footnote however is missing on the next page:
http://store.apple.com/it/browse/home/applecare

This whole discussion is one about nuances, ie, how prominent the explanation of the two-year warranty has to be. Without actually having read the Italian decision, we don't really know what exactly they want Apple to do. Just that they want Apple to do more than it currently does.

Here for the iMac, for example:

http://store.apple.com/it/product/MD007T/A

But you're right, without actually reading what the nuances are and what Apple is accused for we can only speculate

bergert
Jul 2, 2012, 02:19 PM
This whole discussion is one about nuances, ie, how prominent the explanation of the two-year warranty has to be. Without actually having read the Italian decision, we don't really know what exactly they want Apple to do. Just that they want Apple to do more than it currently does.

The standard "free from defect" warranty is two year; yet Apple's web-page shows the manufacturer warranty of one year. This is why the fine is justified.

Either, they add a third column - and spell out that the one-year manufacturer warranty is actually better (personally, I assume they are the same); or they change it to show two years of free repairs (repairs of defects that were present at the time of sale). This is the European law (Italy, Germany, etc are part of the EU by the way).

PS: I know from first-hand experience that Apple stores in EU do try to downplay the 2-year "free from defect" warranty. So it's not just about the web-site; it's about Apple's (read: Apple as seller to end-users) business practices as well. Usually, if you give the staff a hard time - they will accept it; but again: the law is clear; there should not be any argument in Apple stores (bricks-and mortar and on-line via 800-number).

apolloa
Jul 2, 2012, 02:20 PM
If they don't it just shows how greedy Apple is.

Of course it's bloody greedy!! :rolleyes: how else do you think it's ended up with billions in cash supplies, massive share prices, ridiculous record breaking profit? It's the reason it's products are made in sweat shops, they could easily have it's products made in America but won't because it's not a profitable.

yoak
Jul 2, 2012, 02:21 PM
It's the same here in Norway. 2 year warranty, and apple always try to sell you Apple care. Can't blame them for trying that, but I never by it.
My iPhone 4 was starting to show a yellow tint and the camera lens was badly scratched. I sent it in for service and got a brand new phone in return. It would be 2 years old in August.
I'm happy I live in Europe and not the US (although I love visiting)

ChrisA
Jul 2, 2012, 02:21 PM
Apple must make a huge profit on Apple Care otherwise they would not push it so hard.

One would think Apple Care would be less expensive in the EU because under law Apple must already offer a free two year warranty. Applecare would only have to cover one more year play so phone support.

nsayer
Jul 2, 2012, 02:23 PM
It is an EU directive, perhaps Apple should call their bluff and just pull out of all the EU


Here here!

I've actually said on more than one occasion that that would be an excellent idea. It would have been a little more stereotypical and expected if it were Steve standing in front of the cameras metaphorically giving the EU the finger, but I actually think it would be even more effective if Tim Cook did it.

----------

Sure let companies rule the world....
We all know how that turned out. ;)



We do? Where has that happened, other than in the film Rollerball?

MH01
Jul 2, 2012, 02:24 PM
Simple. Charge a 10% premium in Italy under the same scheme as currency adjustments, offer the 2 year warranty requested, and make very clear to the Italian public when and how to give feedback to the government about the unreasonable portions of law or regulation. Let the locals enjoy all costs and benefits.

Let them know pricing is connected to local rules including standards, fines and tarrifs. Give the example of Brazil tarrifs as an extreme example.

Rocketman

Be alot simpler is people knew what the EU was.... Forget about Italy, it's distracting you from the real issue here....

Cinematographer
Jul 2, 2012, 02:25 PM
Apple is getting in trouble because customers can't read?

No, Apple gets in trouble because the Italian regulators can't read:

http://www.apple.com/it/legal/statutory-warranty/

http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/

This pages clearly show the difference between the EU Consumer Law and AppleCare. To claim that they are the same is just plain stupid of the Italians.

nsayer
Jul 2, 2012, 02:25 PM
I'm happy I live in Europe and not the US (although I love visiting)

We're glad you live there too. And thanks for your tourism dollars.

bsolar
Jul 2, 2012, 02:25 PM
I think Apple should call their bluff and just pull out of Italy, including closing all of the iTunes, app and book stores.

I rather suspect it wouldn't be long before there was a new set of regulators overseeing that section of the Italian government.

The Italian law is mandated by an EU directive. This means all EU countries were supposed to implement a similar law and actually most already do. This means Apple will most likely find itself facing the same issue in all other EU countries.

Suddenly "calling the bluff" means pulling out of the whole EU market...

Thunderhawks
Jul 2, 2012, 02:28 PM
It is an EU directive, not an Italian law, try again

I think whoever is the top honcho at Apple's Italian subsidiary should have his feet held to the fire.

A foreign company doing international business, cannot know every nuance of other countries' laws.

So, they hire "experts" or listen to the local distributor/subsidiary .

If Apple was being cheeky in selling Apple care on top off the 2 year warranty without disclosing what is legal they deserve the fine.

If they did disclose this and no intent can be proven, they don't deserve the fine.

I am sure that if an Italian customer would have come with a defect product in year two without Apple care they would have been taken care of.

The Italian government is bankrupt, so 1.2 million is a nice piece of change for free !

Mad-B-One
Jul 2, 2012, 02:29 PM
Oh my! Some people here have absolutely no idea what they are writing about...

2 year "warranty" is not a warranty per se. The European Union mandates that every new product (with some obvious exclusions such as food) has to be able to work for 2 years on normal wear and tear. New cars 3 years, used cars 6 months, to name the major exceptions. Also, the first half a year, the seller has to show that the buyer was at fault in case he wants to deny an exchange, after that, within limitations, the consumer has to argue that the product was at fault and caused the malfunction. Most of the times, this makes no difference. Almost all retailers will just replace within the first 2 years. This is national law in basically all European Union countries even though it is in the National Laws. It follows the EU guideline. BTW: This does not apply to commercial customers: a company buying phones is not protected the same way - they always have to show they were not at fault and can actually waiver the standard warranty in favor of better prices.

The higher prices people mention have nothing to do with that. VAT in the United States is about 0-10% (if you include local VAT), in the European Union 17-25%, roughly speaking. This accounts for the price difference. Also: In Europe, prices shown include VAT, in the USA usually not.

Now, about what Apple is at fault off according to the ruling:

By law, the company issuing a "extended warranty" including e.g. replacement if customer was at fault, switch outs instead of send-in repair etc. - has to inform the customer about the differences between what the company is required to do by law and what the benefit of the extension is. This did and does not happen in a majority of the cases and this is a violation of the law. Simple as that.

And then the ones talking down the Italian economy: The per capita debt is way below the US debt. ($36,841 ITA vs. $50,266 USA) and the % of GDP is about the same (108 ITA vs 103 USA). Please, don't start to argue about the latter; Germany has 142% and pays 0% intrest on new debt... there are simply other factors as well - and the Italian economy is not that bad. They just have different problems than the USA, but unless you are a macroeconomist and really have extended knowledge about that, don't just bash Italy. Don't forget: The last recession was caused by the American Real Estate crisis - not by Greece, Iceland, or Ireland...

Galatian
Jul 2, 2012, 02:29 PM
PS: I know from first-hand experience that Apple stores in EU do try to downplay the 2-year "free from defect" warranty. So it's not just about the web-site; it's about Apple's (read: Apple as seller to end-users) business practices as well. Usually, if you give the staff a hard time - they will accept it; but again: the law is clear; there should not be any argument in Apple stores (bricks-and mortar and on-line via 800-number).

Not only that, but Apple didn't even offer the Magsafe power supply exchange! What? Chinamade Magsafe Adapters magically don't break because of the inherent manufacturing defect? 79€ for a charger that get's replaced for free in another country is pretty steep...Apple really is showing the middle finger to a lot of European customers and I'm sure they are making a much higher margin here in Europe vice the US because of it.

MH01
Jul 2, 2012, 02:32 PM
Here here!

I've actually said on more than one occasion that that would be an excellent idea. It would have been a little more stereotypical and expected if it were Steve standing in front of the cameras metaphorically giving the EU the finger, but I actually think it would be even more effective if Tim Cook did it.

yeah Apple is going to pull out of the EU.... Ease off the Koolaid!

Next your going to tell me they are going to pull out of China and Make the gear in the USA again, bringing jobs and money back into the USA economy..... Ha ha ha...

Apple is too greedy for such fantasies....

smellalot
Jul 2, 2012, 02:34 PM
Image (http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=346263&d=1341252287)

Exactly, that would be what can be called misleading advertising. Except that I don't find that graphic on the Italian Apple website. Here is the main page on AppleCare which has a very small footnote (**) explaining the two-year warranty:
http://www.apple.com/it/support/products/

That footnote however is missing on the next page:
http://store.apple.com/it/browse/home/applecare

This whole discussion is one about nuances, ie, how prominent the explanation of the two-year warranty has to be. Without actually having read the Italian decision, we don't really know what exactly they want Apple to do. Just that they want Apple to do more than it currently does.

Gee, did'nt know they spoke German in Italy.

But your point is right. Apple have done this on a number if occasions (eg with the advertising of the '4G features of new iPad in non supported countries). They use the same medi promotions across countries without indiviualising to the local environment.

As for saying the Italians should learn how to read, well that's a bit harsh comming from those whow live in such a litigious country as the USA.


It's the same on the italian page:
http://store.apple.com/it/product/APPLECAREMBA-102582


Look, can't you guys just accept that Apple is actively advertising in a misleading way?
I personally was very confused by this for a few years. Since I was a kid there was a guarantee of two years on virtually everything. Apple is the only manufacturer I came across that pulls this kind of ****.
The whole "learn how to read" talking is just totally arrogant and childish.

Oh, the good thing: Apple made me read up on my customer rights ;)

Thunderhawks
Jul 2, 2012, 02:34 PM
Apple must make a huge profit on Apple Care otherwise they would not push it so hard.

One would think Apple Care would be less expensive in the EU because under law Apple must already offer a free two year warranty. Applecare would only have to cover one more year play so phone support.


Apple Care is insurance

and insurance is the perfect crime!!

Especially life insurance. Look at all the insurers who make so much money that they don't know where to invest.

Can't build marble palaces all the time.

And, try to get paid on a large claim.

First they'll throw you out , because you had one and then they put the claim money in escrow as they know it takes forever to sue them and you will settle for less.

You pay for something you think you'll have when you need it, but when you try to use it they say you don't have it.

There is more, but just in a nutshell:

Insurance is the perfect crime!

themcfly
Jul 2, 2012, 02:34 PM
From the comments in these thread i believe people did not actually understand what's going on: this is what's happening (italian here):

If you go in to the Apple Store, you select for example an iMac, and in the BTO options you scroll down to the AppleCare, there is a * at the end of the description:

* Benefits of AppleCare are additional to consumer rights under seller legal warranty. Click here (http://images.apple.com/it/legal/warranty/additional_warranty_italy.pdf) for details.

If you click it loads a PDF file, in which you can find the details of the 2 year warranty (the 2nd year it's covered by the seller, for example if you bought it at Best Buy it's their job to get it repaired, if you bought it at the Apple Online Store there is information on how to contact).

The real issue behind all of this is in the description of AppleCare itself:

http://i46.tinypic.com/o04uu.jpg

From that image it seems that the warranty is 1 year only, and Apple is indeed trying to encourage customers to buy the extended warranty. But the 2-year seller warranty it's already there. Also this february, when i got in to an Apple Store to buy an iPhone 4S (the fine of 1.2$ just happened in december, and that PDF was added on the online store) when i expressly asked about the warranty, they told me it was 1 year only, even after I mentioned about that case that Apple was fined for.

HelveticaRoman
Jul 2, 2012, 02:35 PM
Surprising, given your username ... :cool:

Si minor plus est ergo nihil sunt omnia ;-)

LostSoul80
Jul 2, 2012, 02:35 PM
It's Apple (and whatever other company) job to inform in a right way and not to try to obscure the law term to sell extended guarantees.

I agree. Many friends of mine have been telling me Apple states 1 year warranty is official, but the second year covers almost nothing.
Almost nothing, they say. If this isn't obscure practice, go figure. :rolleyes:

MH01
Jul 2, 2012, 02:36 PM
Oh my! Some people here have absolutely no idea what they are writing about...

2 year "warranty" is not a warranty per se. The European Union mandates that every new product (with some obvious exclusions such as food) has to be able to work for 2 years on normal wear and tear. New cars 3 years, used cars 6 months, to name the major exceptions. Also, the first half a year, the seller has to show that the buyer was at fault in case he wants to deny an exchange, after that, within limitations, the consumer has to argue that the product was at fault and caused the malfunction. Most of the times, this makes no difference. Almost all retailers will just replace within the first 2 years. This is national law in basically all European Union countries even though it is in the National Laws. It follows the EU guideline. BTW: This does not apply to commercial customers: a company buying phones is not protected the same way - they always have to show they were not at fault and can actually waiver the standard warranty in favor of better prices.

The higher prices people mention have nothing to do with that. VAT in the United States is about 0-10% (if you include local VAT), in the European Union 17-25%, roughly speaking. This accounts for the price difference. Also: In Europe, prices shown include VAT, in the USA usually not.

Now, about what Apple is at fault off according to the ruling:

By law, the company issuing a "extended warranty" including e.g. replacement if customer was at fault, switch outs instead of send-in repair etc. - has to inform the customer about the differences between what the company is required to do by law and what the benefit of the extension is. This did and does not happen in a majority of the cases and this is a violation of the law. Simple as that.

And then the ones talking down the Italian economy: The per capita debt is way below the US debt. ($36,841 ITA vs. $50,266 USA) and the % of GDP is about the same (108 ITA vs 103 USA). Please, don't start to argue about the latter; Germany has 142% and pays 0% intrest on new debt... there are simply other factors as well - and the Italian economy is not that bad. They just have different problems than the USA, but unless you are a macroeconomist and really have extended knowledge about that, don't just bash Italy. Don't forget: The last recession was caused by the American Real Estate crisis - not by Greece, Iceland, or Ireland...

Spot on. Though the problem here is that most people commenting on here have little idea where Italy is and have not put two and two together that Italy is part of the EU and it's the EU law that is in question.

Schizoid
Jul 2, 2012, 02:41 PM
Why don't Apple just include a three-year warranty with all Macs worldwide? Or would that break the bank?

I'm sure Australia/NZ have 3 year applecare included as standard...

apolloa
Jul 2, 2012, 02:41 PM
Oh my! Some people here have absolutely no idea what they are writing about...

2 year "warranty" is not a warranty per se. The European Union mandates that every new product (with some obvious exclusions such as food) has to be able to work for 2 years on normal wear and tear. New cars 3 years, used cars 6 months, to name the major exceptions. Also, the first half a year, the seller has to show that the buyer was at fault in case he wants to deny an exchange, after that, within limitations, the consumer has to argue that the product was at fault and caused the malfunction. Most of the times, this makes no difference. Almost all retailers will just replace within the first 2 years. This is national law in basically all European Union countries even though it is in the National Laws. It follows the EU guideline. BTW: This does not apply to commercial customers: a company buying phones is not protected the same way - they always have to show they were not at fault and can actually waiver the standard warranty in favor of better prices.

The higher prices people mention have nothing to do with that. VAT in the United States is about 0-10% (if you include local VAT), in the European Union 17-25%, roughly speaking. This accounts for the price difference. Also: In Europe, prices shown include VAT, in the USA usually not.

Now, about what Apple is at fault off according to the ruling:

By law, the company issuing a "extended warranty" including e.g. replacement if customer was at fault, switch outs instead of send-in repair etc. - has to inform the customer about the differences between what the company is required to do by law and what the benefit of the extension is. This did and does not happen in a majority of the cases and this is a violation of the law. Simple as that.

And then the ones talking down the Italian economy: The per capita debt is way below the US debt. ($36,841 ITA vs. $50,266 USA) and the % of GDP is about the same (108 ITA vs 103 USA). Please, don't start to argue about the latter; Germany has 142% and pays 0% intrest on new debt... there are simply other factors as well - and the Italian economy is not that bad. They just have different problems than the USA, but unless you are a macroeconomist and really have extended knowledge about that, don't just bash Italy. Don't forget: The last recession was caused by the American Real Estate crisis - not by Greece, Iceland, or Ireland...

If we're talking economy's and recession, American banks and the last government had a rather healthy part in causing it.
You have no job, no problem, here have a mortgage, a new car loan...... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

And as has been stated, this is EU LAW, not exclusive Italian law. And the EU has NO problems taking on giant corporations, it has done countless times already.

champ01
Jul 2, 2012, 02:42 PM
Requiring a 2 year warranty in order to sell a product in your country does strike me as "stupid". But only because I'm a believer in the "free market". Personally, I feel that government intervention almost always does more harm than good when it extends beyond guaranteeing the most basic of protections. (EG. I'm not necessarily against a "truth in labeling" law, because really, you're only enforcing the requirement that a seller honestly state the nature of what's being sold. It helps ensure a buyer can make an educated decision as to what he/she wants to purchase.)

That said, I live in the U.S.A. where I think the majority of us still believe in such ideas (even when our politicians don't always practice them because they cave in to special interests).

If I had a company in the U.S.A. doing international business, I'd have to realize there are a lot of costs and "gotchas" with selling goods or services elsewhere... So yeah, if this is the law and Apple keeps trying to dodge it? It's Apple's problem. Sucks for them they have such an ingrained business model of offering 1 year warranties and AppleCare options to add 2 more -- but obviously, that's incompatible with Italy's rules of commerce.

There is no such thing as a free market.

Economy = economize

That means building products that last as long as possible.
Giving products 1/2 or even 3 years warranty isn't good enough.

Btw... The American Dream doesn't exist either.

rolfbert
Jul 2, 2012, 02:44 PM
I can't believe what I'm reading here...

First: This is European law NOT Italian.



There is no such thing as european law, only european directives transformed into national law.

Glideslope
Jul 2, 2012, 02:46 PM
Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

Welcome to the EU. Something for nothing. :)

D.T.
Jul 2, 2012, 02:47 PM
By law, the company issuing a "extended warranty" including e.g. replacement if customer was at fault, switch outs instead of send-in repair etc. - has to inform the customer about the differences between what the company is required to do by law and what the benefit of the extension is. This did and does not happen in a majority of the cases and this is a violation of the law. Simple as that.


Thanks, that was reasonably informative. So to be clear: the 3rd year of Applecare is definitely an extension of a year beyond the EU mandate, and there is improved coverage during the 2nd year vs. the EU imposed 2 year “warranty”. The latter isn’t unlike some extended contracts from large retailers where it’s a “2 year” extended warranty, but technically it overlaps the first year of the OEM, _but_ the extended warranty has pick up service, etc.

Seems to me the simple solution is to make sure Applecare is expressed as 1 year +additional+, 3 years +enhanced+ or some language (and supporting documents) to that effect.

G4DP
Jul 2, 2012, 02:48 PM
You must be kidding. American cars certainly aren't the greatest things since sliced bread, but implying that German cars are more reliable? Please. And let's not even talk about the reliability of Italian cars.

As a matter of fact, the highest-rated German car (in terms of reliability) per Consumer Reports' 2012 rankings is the BWM X3...which is built in Spartansburg, South Carolina, USA.

If you're going to insult my country because of your ignorance, look the ****** out. At a bare minimum, get your facts straight.

Tell ya what. You keep your cars and washing machines, and we'll keep our computers. How's that?

Well as you don't make any computers your f'cked.

Welcome to the EU. Something for nothing. :)

So your happy to spend thousands on something that only has a 1 year warranty?

Mad-B-One
Jul 2, 2012, 02:49 PM
If we're talking economy's and recession, American banks and the last government had a rather healthy part in causing it.
You have no job, no problem, here have a mortgage, a new car loan...... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

And as has been stated, this is EU LAW, not exclusive Italian law. And the EU has NO problems taking on giant corporations, it has done countless times already.

Yea, to some degree, you are right. The USA has a so-called Credit Score system in which you get better credit rates according to your history of paying back debts. In other words: You never were in debt, you can't get a loan for something like a house - and it mostly does not matter what your income is. It is even worse than having bounced credit cards or filed for bancruptcy.

Just an example: I never needed student loans, neither did my wife. We never had a credit card. I have a somewhat well-paid secure job. I couldn't get a house loan. I put a superficial credit on one of our paid-in-cash cars of $1000 I will pay off over the next year (9 months left) which cost me $125 in interest and needed "insurance" so I get a credit score. In other words, the U.S. banks don't even learn from that. It isn't important how secure your job is, how much you make, only what stupid score you have...

Oletros
Jul 2, 2012, 02:50 PM
Welcome to the EU. Something for nothing. :)

Yap, nothing :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Daveoc64
Jul 2, 2012, 02:51 PM
Apple Care is insurance

That's absolutely not the case and if you make that claim in Europe when it's not true, they'd throw the book at you.

and insurance is the perfect crime!!

Now that I agree with!

Mad-B-One
Jul 2, 2012, 02:51 PM
Thanks, that was reasonably informative. So to be clear: the 3rd year of Applecare is definitely an extension of a year beyond the EU mandate, and there is improved coverage during the 2nd year vs. the EU imposed 2 year “warranty”. The latter isn’t unlike some extended contracts from large retailers where it’s a “2 year” extended warranty, but technically it overlaps the first year of the OEM, _but_ the extended warranty has pick up service, etc.

Seems to me the simple solution is to make sure Applecare is expressed as 1 year +additional+, 3 years +enhanced+ or some language (and supporting documents) to that effect.

Pretty much spot-on. Apple does not do that and that is the criticism here by court and customer advocacy groups. Those are, by the way, very stong lobbies - which is good because we all are customers at one point and we should (as voters) have a bigger weight than some industry lobby.

yadmonkey
Jul 2, 2012, 02:56 PM
Is there any wonder why Italy's economy is in the *******? Toilet? Crapper?

Their economy is in the crapper because the government tries to advocate for consumers? Germany does that too (2 year warrantee and all) - that must explain why their economy is relatively doing so well.

Or maybe making a broad conclusion based on a shred of information is contrary to critical thought.

Glideslope
Jul 2, 2012, 03:02 PM
Well as you don't make any computers your f'cked.



So your happy to spend thousands on something that only has a 1 year warranty?

Yada, yada, yada. We are talking consumer electronics! One year is the norm.
Any electronic device that does not fail from a defect by 12m will last several more years without being abused.

Sorry. Just not a Socialist yet. :apple:

----------

Yap, nothing :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Oh God. Not again. :)

Michaelgtrusa
Jul 2, 2012, 03:04 PM
What is next.

Oletros
Jul 2, 2012, 03:05 PM
Any electronic device that does not fail from a defect by 12m will last several more years without being abused.


Or not, tell that all the people with broken gadgets after the 12 months


Sorry. Just not a Socialist yet. :apple:[COLOR="#808080"]


Oh, two years guarantee, Marx dreams :rolleyes::rolleyes:

apolloa
Jul 2, 2012, 03:07 PM
Yea, to some degree, you are right. The USA has a so-called Credit Score system in which you get better credit rates according to your history of paying back debts. In other words: You never were in debt, you can't get a loan for something like a house - and it mostly does not matter what your income is. It is even worse than having bounced credit cards or filed for bancruptcy.

Just an example: I never needed student loans, neither did my wife. We never had a credit card. I have a somewhat well-paid secure job. I couldn't get a house loan. I put a superficial credit on one of our paid-in-cash cars of $1000 I will pay off over the next year (9 months left) which cost me $125 in interest and needed "insurance" so I get a credit score. In other words, the U.S. banks don't even learn from that. It isn't important how secure your job is, how much you make, only what stupid score you have...

The UK is similar mate. Personally I blame London banks, New York banks, the Bush Government and the Blair\ Brown government for the entire mess nearly. Sure the Euro was and is a crap idea, but if these people weren't so obsessed with pure greed, then the recession wouldn't happen and the Euro wouldn't be in such a mess.

In fact in the UK the banks are going to be investigated for another scandal, plus they had to repay millions and millions in loan protection insurance they mis-sold and they have been caught mis selling specialist insurance to small businesses!!
Seriously, banking is amongst the most corrupt business going, and all it's supposed to do is handle everyone else's money!! Pretty sickening really.

dellata
Jul 2, 2012, 03:10 PM
Oh my! Some people here have absolutely no idea what they are writing about...

2 year "warranty" is not a warranty per se. The European Union mandates that every new product (with some obvious exclusions such as food) has to be able to work for 2 years on normal wear and tear. New cars 3 years, used cars 6 months, to name the major exceptions. Also, the first half a year, the seller has to show that the buyer was at fault in case he wants to deny an exchange, after that, within limitations, the consumer has to argue that the product was at fault and caused the malfunction. Most of the times, this makes no difference. Almost all retailers will just replace within the first 2 years. This is national law in basically all European Union countries even though it is in the National Laws. It follows the EU guideline. BTW: This does not apply to commercial customers: a company buying phones is not protected the same way - they always have to show they were not at fault and can actually waiver the standard warranty in favor of better prices.

The higher prices people mention have nothing to do with that. VAT in the United States is about 0-10% (if you include local VAT), in the European Union 17-25%, roughly speaking. This accounts for the price difference. Also: In Europe, prices shown include VAT, in the USA usually not.

Now, about what Apple is at fault off according to the ruling:

By law, the company issuing a "extended warranty" including e.g. replacement if customer was at fault, switch outs instead of send-in repair etc. - has to inform the customer about the differences between what the company is required to do by law and what the benefit of the extension is. This did and does not happen in a majority of the cases and this is a violation of the law. Simple as that.

And then the ones talking down the Italian economy: The per capita debt is way below the US debt. ($36,841 ITA vs. $50,266 USA) and the % of GDP is about the same (108 ITA vs 103 USA). Please, don't start to argue about the latter; Germany has 142% and pays 0% intrest on new debt... there are simply other factors as well - and the Italian economy is not that bad. They just have different problems than the USA, but unless you are a macroeconomist and really have extended knowledge about that, don't just bash Italy. Don't forget: The last recession was caused by the American Real Estate crisis - not by Greece, Iceland, or Ireland...

Finally somebody who knows what is writing about. Thanks for your clear and precise statement.
Apple must simply accomplish EU laws. That's all
Regards

organerito
Jul 2, 2012, 03:13 PM
Yada, yada, yada. We are talking consumer electronics! One year is the norm.
Any electronic device that does not fail from a defect by 12m will last several more years without being abused.

Sorry. Just not a Socialist yet. :apple:

----------



Oh God. Not again. :)

Isn't it one of the most intelligent things we have heard today?:rolleyes:

Glideslope
Jul 2, 2012, 03:17 PM
Isn't it one of the most intelligent things we have heard today?:rolleyes:

Just the truth. Nothing more, nothing less. Creative quote splicing there. :)

Mad-B-One
Jul 2, 2012, 03:20 PM
Yada, yada, yada. We are talking consumer electronics! One year is the norm.
Any electronic device that does not fail from a defect by 12m will last several more years without being abused.

Sorry. Just not a Socialist yet.

lol yea, I will pay over $800 for my new phone and will be perfectly happy if it breaks after 13 months... NOT. This is not a throw-away toy. It's expensive and should work for 2 years at the least. Has nothing to do with socialism - just with common sense. Just because the USA does not protect the customers as it should does not mean that others shouldn't either. Actually, since you don't pay more in the EU for the same equipment but have a better protection means you get ripped off in the USA. Well, at least you can put your foil hat on and call it "socialism" instead of realizing you just got ripped off.

(for those who still don't get the price difference, read my prior posts :cool: )

Stephen123
Jul 2, 2012, 03:32 PM
Here's what Apple says where they sell Apple Care. The translation from Italian to English is an auto translation by Google. Apple is not accused (at this time) of lying about the warranty, or of failing to disclose the 2 year guaranteed warranty. They are accused of not being sufficiently aggressive in explaining Italian law to their customers.
-----
"Up to three years from original date of purchase of your computer, thanks to AppleCare Protection Plan will enjoy direct access telephone support from Apple qualified for questions about Apple hardware, Mac OS X, iLife and iWork. In addition you'll enjoy the full coverage of repair costs for your Mac (both in terms of spare parts and labor) through convenient service options. *

We've made it easy to register. Basically you have to do anything. When you purchase the AppleCare Protection Plan along with a new Mac, you'll be automatically registered in the plan. Immediately after sending your Mac, we'll send you an AppleCare Welcome Packet, which includes a valid certificate of coverage, and a Getting Started with the terms and conditions of the plan.

* The benefits are in addition to rights of consumers under the legal guarantee of the seller. Click here for details
For convenience, we recommend that you keep this package along with the rest of the Apple documentation."
-----
The "click here" link goes to:
http://images.apple.com/it/legal/warranty/additional_warranty_italy.pdf

Mad-B-One
Jul 2, 2012, 03:40 PM
Here's what Apple says where they sell Apple Care. The translation from Italian to English is an auto translation by Google. Apple is not accused (at this time) of lying about the warranty, or of failing to disclose the 2 year guaranteed warranty. They are accused of not being sufficiently aggressive in explaining Italian law to their customers.
-----
"Up to three years from original date of purchase of your computer, thanks to AppleCare Protection Plan will enjoy direct access telephone support from Apple qualified for questions about Apple hardware, Mac OS X, iLife and iWork. In addition you'll enjoy the full coverage of repair costs for your Mac (both in terms of spare parts and labor) through convenient service options. *

We've made it easy to register. Basically you have to do anything. When you purchase the AppleCare Protection Plan along with a new Mac, you'll be automatically registered in the plan. Immediately after sending your Mac, we'll send you an AppleCare Welcome Packet, which includes a valid certificate of coverage, and a Getting Started with the terms and conditions of the plan.

* The benefits are in addition to rights of consumers under the legal guarantee of the seller. Click here for details
For convenience, we recommend that you keep this package along with the rest of the Apple documentation."
-----
The "click here" link goes to:
http://images.apple.com/it/legal/warranty/additional_warranty_italy.pdf

Yep, and as far as I understand it, law requires that in the summary statement, you explain the differences "The benefits are in addition to rights of consumers under the legal guarantee of the seller. Click here for details" does not cut it. There is no sentence about 2 years on parts being included by law. Just aying - the "Clich here" is not enough - and that's not me saying, that is the law mandating.

manu chao
Jul 2, 2012, 03:47 PM
The per capita debt is way below the US debt. ($36,841 ITA vs. $50,266 USA) and the % of GDP is about the same (108 ITA vs 103 USA). Please, don't start to argue about the latter; Germany has 142% and pays 0% intrest on new debt... there are simply other factors as well - and the Italian economy is not that bad.
I would be curious how you come up with the 142% for Germany. One major difference between Germany is for example the export surplus or the growth rate over the last decade.

Nuvi
Jul 2, 2012, 03:47 PM
Apple should just close up shop and leave Italy. Just say "You know what you win Italy, we just won't sell products in your country."

While they're at it Apple should then leave whole EU region. Every single company operating in EU has to provide two year warranty.

MacinDoc
Jul 2, 2012, 03:52 PM
Yep, and as far as I understand it, law requires that in the summary statement, you explain the differences "The benefits are in addition to rights of consumers under the legal guarantee of the seller. Click here for details" does not cut it. There is no sentence about 2 years on parts being included by law. Just aying - the "Clich here" is not enough - and that's not me saying, that is the law mandating.
You make a good point. Explaining the difference is more than saying "click here" to see what your rights are.

This isn't really all that difficult to do. Makes me wonder why Apple is taking so long to do it.

gnasher729
Jul 2, 2012, 03:52 PM
There you go.

Manufacturer's warranty is one year. Completely thruthful.


While they're at it Apple should then leave whole EU region. Every single company operating in EU has to provide two year warranty.

No manufacturer has to provide a two year warranty. Retailers must sell goods that are 'as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality'. Calling it a 'two year warranty' is oversimplifying.


I'm tired of Apple ignoring compulsory warranties, they pretend it doesn't apply to them or something! It should be just as easy to get a faulty product fixed within two years than it is within a year, and they simply say that you're out of warranty after a year, which isn't true.

An excellent argument, except that you are wrong. There's a manufacturer, and there's a retailer, and there are different rules for them. For most goods that you buy, you don't have a clue who the manufacturer might be, you deal with the retailer. That's why the EU laws put obligations on the retailer, not the manufacturer. Apple, as a manufacturer, has actually no obligation at all to give any warranty. But if you buy a product from an Apple store, online or retail, then Apple has an obligation, whether the producct you bought is made by Apple or not.


In the UK for a £2000 laptop Apple could be forced to fix a defect up to 5 years after purchase.

Not Apple, but the retailer. And you may be confusing that you have a certain time to make a claim, and how long a product has to last.

doobybiggs
Jul 2, 2012, 03:53 PM
I love Italy for standing up to Apple.

Curious to see how this goes when its all over.

tdmac
Jul 2, 2012, 03:58 PM
The standard "free from defect" warranty is two year; yet Apple's web-page shows the manufacturer warranty of one year. This is why the fine is justified.

Either, they add a third column - and spell out that the one-year manufacturer warranty is actually better (personally, I assume they are the same); or they change it to show two years of free repairs (repairs of defects that were present at the time of sale). This is the European law (Italy, Germany, etc are part of the EU by the way).

PS: I know from first-hand experience that Apple stores in EU do try to downplay the 2-year "free from defect" warranty. So it's not just about the web-site; it's about Apple's (read: Apple as seller to end-users) business practices as well. Usually, if you give the staff a hard time - they will accept it; but again: the law is clear; there should not be any argument in Apple stores (bricks-and mortar and on-line via 800-number).


No they do not need a third column and I personally don' think Apple is doing anything wrong here. The EU warranty is "Strictly" for defects that were present prior to purchase. This is not a direct correlation to a device/computer is defective if it dies after 12 months. As a consumer you have to then prove that this was a result of a defect that existed in that phone when you bought it. Something I think is extremely difficult and imagine time consuming. All the while you are without a replacement until that question is answered. If there was a mass problem that affected multiple devices then the warranty claim under EU would be that much easier.

What I am perplexed about is if this EU warranty applies to "ANYTHING" purchased from a store or only certain items. If so, then this is so commonplace that everyone should know this already. If obscure that it only applies to electronics or certain electronics then I could understand.

However, there is no comparison between what Applecare offers and the standard EU warranty. You get allot of value for the $$ for Applecare. Coverage for any defect that occurs after the unit is purchased. Phone support beyond the initial 90 days. Rapid replacement of iPhone & iPads, etc.

Mad-B-One
Jul 2, 2012, 03:59 PM
I would be curious how you come up with the 142% for Germany. One major difference between Germany is for example the export surplus or the growth rate over the last decade.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt) - even if it is the 2010 numbers, it isn't that much different right now. I know it has to do with productivity, but that is why the GDP is a good measure: if you have a higher GDP, you produce more. Ergo, the numbers being about equal in Italy and the USA means that they are about the same amount in debt by means of being able to pay it back - except that the sheer amount of the US debt can have a way more desasterous impact in case the debt will grow to the extend that everyone sees it won't be repaid. Also, there is no power on earth which could bail out the USA. Italy though is way less system critical and can be bailed out undr certain circumstances, at least partially. There is a lot of wealth amongst the people though which could be invested. Part of the Italian problem is that small business owners do not reinvest into the comany and don't thrive the grow but rather stagnate. Corruption and organized crime on the other hand are problems Italy is facing in higher per capita rates than other first world countries... The USA has the highest expenses for military per capita or GDP or in % of budget. This does not really create revenue though. As I stated, the problems are different.

Nuvi
Jul 2, 2012, 04:00 PM
Yada, yada, yada. We are talking consumer electronics! One year is the norm.
Any electronic device that does not fail from a defect by 12m will last several more years without being abused.

Sorry. Just not a Socialist yet.

One year might be norm in US but two years is the law in EU. Its simple as that. BTW. Socialism?!? (don't use big word you don't understand...) Try consumer rights and democracy...

Starship77
Jul 2, 2012, 04:01 PM
Yep, and as far as I understand it, law requires that in the summary statement, you explain the differences "The benefits are in addition to rights of consumers under the legal guarantee of the seller. Click here for details" does not cut it. There is no sentence about 2 years on parts being included by law. Just aying - the "Clich here" is not enough - and that's not me saying, that is the law mandating.

Well, but if you DO click, this is what you see:

*image attached

My italian is not the best, but I think it explains quite clearly the differences between Apple Care and the government mandatory warranty.

jagolden
Jul 2, 2012, 04:02 PM
I can't believe what I'm reading here...

First: This is European law NOT Italian.

Second: If you Americans are willing to pay so much money for gadgets that are only garrantied to run for...what?...90 days...go ahead...no wonder NOBODY except Americans purchase ****** American cars...

Third: The law actually states that in the first year of warranty the producer has to prove the user was handling it wrong, whilst the second year the user has to prove there was a material problem.

Fourth: I just purchased a new MacBook Air and decides against paying over 200€ for one additional year of warranty. What's the chance of a part failing in three year when it hasn't in the two years before? It's more like you have accidental damage or it get's stolen. I rather use the money to buy an insurance in that case.

Fifth: We have a lot of gadget that last decades...think Miele Washmachines...I actually expect them to hold out that long and Miele actually does give you their own 5 year warranty on it as many other manufactures do...Apple is cheeping out on everything to keep their high profit margin. They could easily give you a 5 year warranty as well, but why bother if you have sheeps like you fools you actually think THIS is the reason why Italian economy is bad.

Sixth: On that matter. It is actually a crisis of mostly banks here in Europe...and guess where it started: America...Sublime credits anyone? Just so that you guys can buy crappy houses and ****** car's that you really couldn't afford (including Apple products) the entire world economy has been screwed...So do us the favor and think before giving smart answers...

Seventh: Oh and Apple product are more expensive because of our VAT...we have 19% here in Germany...US has what?...0-10%?

Yes, America screwed the worlds economy. Apparently the rest of the world thought it was great or they wouldn't have tied themselves into it.
Boy, you're angry, relax. What's the matter, can't get a job in your socialist country?

boozezela
Jul 2, 2012, 04:04 PM
The issue here is that the law is a 2-year warranty enforceable against the merchant, not the manufacturer.

This is important because it would be impossible for the governments to monitor and control every manufacturer from every country for compliance.

What Apple is offering is an extension of THEIR warranty from 1-3 years on computers, 1-2 years on iDevices, where they take care of everything. That includes phone support for 2/3 years instead of 90 days, repair and replacement of products, etc. This is not the same thing as what the 2-year warranty provides.

That Italy claims otherwise is a shakedown effort. They want Apple to bribe them. This is how it works in Italy (and much of the world, including smaller towns in the USA). Bribes and kangaroo courts.

It will all be sorted out. Italy will raise the fine and they won't grant an stay on appeal, so Apple will have to pay the fine in order to stay in business, even during their next appeal.

The typical uniformed and ignorant comment.

In Italy the manufacturer must provide coverage for 12 months.
The merchant must be able to provide coverage for 24 months.

When you buy let's say a TV, if it breaks down within the first 12 months you can choose to go back to the manufacturer or to go back to the shop. If it breaks down afterwards, you go back to the merchant and the merchant is supposed to cover for defects in the product without even flinching.

When it comes to Apple, as soon as you claim a defect after the 12th month they will tell you basically "Oh, noooo you see, we are the MANUFACTURER, not the merchant so we only need to cover you for 12 months. What a pity, next time you should buy an AppleCare".

This is all this is about. It is about Apple refusing to cover a product as a merchant and pushing an extended warranty as a manufacturer. Also be very well aware that "Apple the manufaturer" and "Apple the merchant" operate as separate companies in Italy.

It is not about failing economies (for which we all have to thank greedy american bankers), bribes, horses' heads or "offers you cannot refuse".

Very simple to understand if you actually know what you are talking about.

Mad-B-One
Jul 2, 2012, 04:04 PM
The EU warranty is "Strictly" for defects that were present prior to purchase.

What else would a warranty be? A warranty guaranties it won't break in a certain amount of time - ergo the parts used are not defective to the point that your purchaise is defaulting within that time frame.

The Apple Care Plan is not only an extended warranty but also an insurance because it covers things a "warranty" by definition cannot cover such as accidental damage.

This is not made clear. Simple as that.

Nuvi
Jul 2, 2012, 04:09 PM
No manufacturer has to provide a two year warranty. Retailers must sell goods that are 'as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality'. Calling it a 'two year warranty' is oversimplifying.

In many EU countries consumer can choose to request the repair or replacement either from the seller or manufacturer. However, the two year guarantee (not warranty since there is no premiums to be paid by the consumer) is fact and not open for debate.

Wherever you buy goods in the EU, you have two years to request repairs or replacement if they turn out to be faulty or not as advertised. If a product cannot be repaired or replaced within a reasonable time or without inconvenience, you may request a refund or price reduction.

The two-year guarantee period starts as soon as your goods are delivered, and you must inform the seller of the fault within two months of discovering it.

The seller is always liable, and in some EU countries you also have the right to request a remedy from the producer

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/guarantees/index_en.htm

GS17
Jul 2, 2012, 04:11 PM
Simple. Charge a 10% premium in Italy under the same scheme as currency adjustments, offer the 2 year warranty requested, and make very clear to the Italian public when and how to give feedback to the government about the unreasonable portions of law or regulation. Let the locals enjoy all costs and benefits.

Let them know pricing is connected to local rules including standards, fines and tarrifs. Give the example of Brazil tarrifs as an extreme example.

Rocketman

That's total nonsense, I haven't seen the packaging or promotional material in Italy (and I'm sure you haven't either), but I believe that Apple was aware of the 2 year EU law when they entered in business there and adjusted prices accordingly otherwise they will be willingly infringing the law by only doing 1 year just to not increase their prices.

The fines and possible ban on products is related to the fact that they seem not to be explaining to people the fact they are covered for 2 years and the extra coverage (AppleCare) is for years 2-3 which will make them lose 50% of their money's worth unless in the EU it actually covers years 3-4 and if it works this way many people will choose not to get AppleCare because they will not keep their equipment that long.

Mad-B-One
Jul 2, 2012, 04:12 PM
I can't believe what I'm reading here...

First: This is European law NOT Italian.

Second: If you Americans are willing to pay so much money for gadgets that are only garrantied to run for...what?...90 days...go ahead...no wonder NOBODY except Americans purchase ****** American cars...

Third: The law actually states that in the first year of warranty the producer has to prove the user was handling it wrong, whilst the second year the user has to prove there was a material problem.

Fourth: I just purchased a new MacBook Air and decides against paying over 200€ for one additional year of warranty. What's the chance of a part failing in three year when it hasn't in the two years before? It's more like you have accidental damage or it get's stolen. I rather use the money to buy an insurance in that case.

Fifth: We have a lot of gadget that last decades...think Miele Washmachines...I actually expect them to hold out that long and Miele actually does give you their own 5 year warranty on it as many other manufactures do...Apple is cheeping out on everything to keep their high profit margin. They could easily give you a 5 year warranty as well, but why bother if you have sheeps like you fools you actually think THIS is the reason why Italian economy is bad.

Sixth: On that matter. It is actually a crisis of mostly banks here in Europe...and guess where it started: America...Sublime credits anyone? Just so that you guys can buy crappy houses and ****** car's that you really couldn't afford (including Apple products) the entire world economy has been screwed...So do us the favor and think before giving smart answers...

Seventh: Oh and Apple product are more expensive because of our VAT...we have 19% here in Germany...US has what?...0-10%?

FIRST: Nope, National Law following a EU guideline.
THIRD: That is German Law which exceeds the EU guideline. I think the guideling states 6m and then the switch but I might be wrong on that.
FOURTH: Yes, it is basically an insurance. Tha talso means that sometimes other insurances give you a similar or even better protection. I went with my phone carrier, for example, instead of the Apple Care Plan. It covered more and I needed less proof - such as "I lost my phone."

dpasc
Jul 2, 2012, 04:14 PM
I never get this legal mumbo-jumbo...

I'm moving to Italy in September, but I'm buying my laptop here in Canada (with apple care). Does this mean that Apple in Italy may not repair my laptop if I have issues?

organerito
Jul 2, 2012, 04:15 PM
Just the truth. Nothing more, nothing less. Creative quote splicing there. :)

I could have sworn you are from Alabama, Arizona, Texas or any other horrible thing like that.

Just before I laugh at you, is, according to your truth, Socialist=Bad?

j4zb4
Jul 2, 2012, 04:15 PM
Sixth: On that matter. It is actually a crisis of mostly banks here in Europe...and guess where it started: America...Sublime credits anyone? Just so that you guys can buy crappy houses and ****** car's that you really couldn't afford (including Apple products) the entire world economy has been screwed...So do us the favor and think before giving smart answers...

I really do agree with this point of yours... Especially since two years ago my business having suffered the result of American greed... The only reason the American economy is still standing is because of their banks... And we all know where the banks got the monies from (if you don't please google it)... But not many people understand the finer terms... people ted to look at the fake picture and think all is well...


Don't forget: The last recession was caused by the American Real Estate crisis - not by Greece, Iceland, or Ireland...


You hit the nail right on the head... Took the words straight out of my mouth...

Mad-B-One
Jul 2, 2012, 04:18 PM
Yes, America screwed the worlds economy. Apparently the rest of the world thought it was great or they wouldn't have tied themselves into it.
Boy, you're angry, relax. What's the matter, can't get a job in your socialist country?

Actually, Germany has roughly half the unemployment rate compared to the U.S. with better benefits for the ones which actually loose their jobs e.g. starting benefits after working for 1 year, not 1.5 years, mandatory affordable health care covering 100% of your health care corsts (except a prescription co-pay of about $7 per medication without limit on how many medications), etc. I worked in both economies and a lot of people - including you - don't even know the difference between "socialist" and "social free maket" - but then again, WalMart has a special on tin hats. :rolleyes:

Edit: German Constitution (Art 14 (2) GG) states "Ownership is a Duty" - my free interpretation. It simply means that you having wealth own it to the society to give back because they made it possible for you to have it in the first place.

Nuvi
Jul 2, 2012, 04:19 PM
The Apple Care Plan is not only an extended warranty but also an insurance because it covers things a "warranty" by definition cannot cover such as accidental damage.

This is not made clear. Simple as that.

Thats AppleCare+ that is not even available in Europe. In Europe its just the regular AppleCare without any insurance aspects.

swagi
Jul 2, 2012, 04:20 PM
Apple has no obligation at all to offer any manufacturer's warranty on any products. However, stores, including Apple stores, have are responsible for the products they sell (claiming this means "two years warranty" is oversimplifying it). On all products they sell.

Just to let you know - yes they do if they sell it in the way of an Apple Store. They have to offer a two year warranty on a new product as a reseller. It is written! All over the EU.

And actually the whole article is about not informing publicly that you don't need Apple Care.

Just to let you know, if your SDD or HDD or display or whatever dies in your Apple product after 1.5 years and you haven't bought Apple Care - you are still perfectly in the warranty period and can trial the seller of said Apple product for repairing your stuff.

EU wide consumer protection. Well - actually the Apple Store subsidy is obliged to (or the Apple Online Store subsidy), as they are the seller. So let's say a major electronics outlet sells you the rMBP. If it dies, the seller has to offer you warranty and Apple can give them the big bad stinking finger.

An Apple Store on the other way...so in short: Don't mix manufacturer's obligation (they have none) with resellers obligation (they have two years if selling a new product and six months if selling a used product).

scottsjack
Jul 2, 2012, 04:20 PM
OK, what have we learned here.

1. Apple tried to pull a fast one by selling an effective one year of protection for the price of two additional years of protection.

2. A notable number of, probably American, MacRumors posters are as dumb as dirt.

theelysium
Jul 2, 2012, 04:23 PM
I worked for AppleCare; people who think it's confusing are incompetent. The back packaging very clear. It shows you a freaking diagram, hello! :eek:

This is an issue of the public being too stupid to read or comprehend. Same issue we have here in the US.

look at the photo I added... how is that not clear... seriously! It's the broke ass Italian government trying to make a buck off of Apple. :D

theelysium
Jul 2, 2012, 04:23 PM
ok, what have we learned here.

1. Apple tried to pull a fast one by selling an effective one year of protection for the price of two additional years of protection.

2. A notable number of, probably american, macrumors posters are as dumb as dirt.

look in the mirror.

Nuvi
Jul 2, 2012, 04:24 PM
Boy, you're angry, relax. What's the matter, can't get a job in your socialist country?

Watching O'Reilly much?

Oletros
Jul 2, 2012, 04:29 PM
I worked for AppleCare; people who think it's confusing are incompetent. The back packaging very clear. It shows you a freaking diagram, hello! :eek:

This is an issue of the public being too stupid to read or comprehend. Same issue we have here in the US.

look at the photo I added... how is that not clear... seriously! It's the broke ass Italian government trying to make a buck off of Apple. :D

And this is the right guarantee in EU?

Nuvi
Jul 2, 2012, 04:31 PM
I worked for AppleCare; people who think it's confusing are incompetent. The back packaging very clear. It shows you a freaking diagram, hello! :eek:

This is an issue of the public being too stupid to read or comprehend. Same issue we have here in the US.

look at the photo I added... how is that not clear... seriously! It's the broke ass Italian government trying to make a buck off of Apple. :D

It seems you're the one who's confused here. Let's take it from the top. A) In EU law consumer has minimum of two year guarantee. B) Apple is only providing one year guarantee. C) This constitutes as breach of EU consumer protection laws hence the actions taken by consumer protection authorities in EU.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/guarantees/index_en.htm

mingoglia
Jul 2, 2012, 04:34 PM
I for one think Apple should come with a standard 3 year warranty. I believe if you have a good product, and are proud of it, you should stand behind it. With that being said, I'm against government intervention and telling companies how they can/can't do business so I take what Apple gives.

I am though against deceptive practices and "fine print" makes me a bit crazy so I'm not personally dismissing this one just yet. I don't believe in purposely "tricking" customers. Actually, I don't really care what the outcome is. It doesn't affect me and I don't have time to follow it. LOL

boozezela
Jul 2, 2012, 04:39 PM
I worked for AppleCare; people who think it's confusing are incompetent. The back packaging very clear. It shows you a freaking diagram, hello! :eek:

This is an issue of the public being too stupid to read or comprehend. Same issue we have here in the US.

look at the photo I added... how is that not clear... seriously! It's the broke ass Italian government trying to make a buck off of Apple. :D

"Apple the manufacturer" can very well offer 12 months of basic coverage and 2 years of extended paid for coverage namely AppleCare.

Too bad by law "Apple the merchant" must offer 24 months coverage without the need to purchase the extended paid for coverage "Apple the manufacturer" is pushing.

So, yes, people are actually too stupid to understand. They are the ones that relies on freaking diagrams.

Nuvi
Jul 2, 2012, 04:39 PM
An Apple Store on the other way...so in short: Don't mix manufacturer's obligation (they have none) with resellers obligation (they have two years if selling a new product and six months if selling a used product).

Actually in some EU countries consumer has right to (http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/guarantees/index_en.htm) approach the seller or the manufacturer. However, most of the times its more convenient for the consumer to deal with the seller then to take it directly to manufacturer. Regarding the used items the minimum guarantee period is one year.

The seller is always liable, and in some EU countries you also have the right to request a remedy from the producer.

Second-hand goods
In the case of second-hand goods, the buyer and seller can agree to a guarantee period of less than two years, but no shorter than one year. This should be made clear to you at the time of purchase.

scottsjack
Jul 2, 2012, 04:42 PM
look in the mirror.

Can't, all I have is two monitors in front of me. They're not Apple so I can't see myself in them.

theelysium
Jul 2, 2012, 04:44 PM
It seems you're the one who's confused here. Let's take it from the top. A) In EU law consumer has minimum of two year guarantee. B) Apple is only providing one year guarantee. C) This constitutes as breach of EU consumer protection laws hence the actions taken by consumer protection authorities in EU.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/guarantees/index_en.htm

Completely coherente, yo!

EU = morons.

----------

Can't, all I have is two monitors in front of me. They're not Apple so I can't see myself in them.

OOO, wow, what a burn.. ouch.. I better get to the burn unit; that burn was so bad... damn... :p

Not my design.

Galatian
Jul 2, 2012, 04:46 PM
Yes, America screwed the worlds economy. Apparently the rest of the world thought it was great or they wouldn't have tied themselves into it.
Boy, you're angry, relax. What's the matter, can't get a job in your socialist country?

No not the rest of the world...Bankers did...and for the sake of it I don't understand why WE (as in taxpayers) bail them out (again) so they can do it all over again...And this is an American and European problem. The only people really laughing right now are Russia and China...More money for them...

And no: I have a pretty secure job...I am just really angry about that nonsense that get spilled all over MacRumors...I mean people read this and actually believe it is true...Seriously the first two pages are just Italy bashing and how stupid it is to have longer warranty...what weird mind questions longer warranties?!?

JAT
Jul 2, 2012, 04:46 PM
I understand you want your products to last a reasonable time, everyone does. But spewing crazy isn't going to help...
I'm tired of Apple ignoring compulsory warranties, they pretend it doesn't apply to them or something! It should be just as easy to get a faulty product fixed within two years than it is within a year, and they simply say that you're out of warranty after a year, which isn't true.

All I want is products that last more than a year. You can't be expected to buy a new Apple computer every year, that's just stupid.
Apple often fixes their products out of warranty. I had an iPod fixed more than once well beyond the one year. Just read another post this morning about a guy getting his battery replaced in a 17" MBP after warranty. (and that's a consumable, warranty shouldn't be as long, anyway) This is frequently how Apple treats its customers, and part of why so many are zealous about the company.

By ignoring warranty, they are basically saying "We can't promise that your £2000 computer will work in a year, and that you won't have to buy a new one yourself." I can buy a car for that price that has 7 years of warranty! And Apple products tend to fail a lot more than they should in my experience.
Only if you don't drive it. The miles are the real warranty. Mine said 10 years, didn't last 5. (the warranty, the car is still great)

Pretty much anything you buy has at least 2 or 3 years of warranty: cameras, hard drives, etc… And it makes sense, you expect these things to last for a few years, since you paid loads for them and it's not something you need to buy every year.
Cameras and HDDs do not usually have more than 1 year warranty. Not the consumer-level stuff. Not in the USA.

theelysium
Jul 2, 2012, 04:48 PM
"Apple the manufacturer" can very well offer 12 months of basic coverage and 2 years of extended paid for coverage namely AppleCare.

Too bad by law "Apple the merchant" must offer 24 months coverage without the need to purchase the extended paid for coverage "Apple the manufacturer" is pushing.

So, yes, people are actually too stupid to understand. They are the ones that relies on freaking diagrams.

I think a better argument to make would be about the idiotic Apple Sales reps (not all of them just the idiotic ones) that tell people they NEED :mad: :apple:Care in order to have their products covered. I've heard of that by customers that called in when I worked at :apple:Care. That BS needs to stop, but the marketing is absolutely clear. :cool:

manu chao
Jul 2, 2012, 04:51 PM
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt) - even if it is the 2010 numbers, it isn't that much different right now. I know it has to do with productivity, but that is why the GDP is a good measure: if you have a higher GDP, you produce more. Ergo, the numbers being about equal in Italy and the USA means that they are about the same amount in debt by means of being able to pay it back - except that the sheer amount of the US debt can have a way more desasterous impact in case the debt will grow to the extend that everyone sees it won't be repaid. Also, there is no power on earth which could bail out the USA. Italy though is way less system critical and can be bailed out undr certain circumstances, at least partially. There is a lot of wealth amongst the people though which could be invested. Part of the Italian problem is that small business owners do not reinvest into the comany and don't thrive the grow but rather stagnate. Corruption and organized crime on the other hand are problems Italy is facing in higher per capita rates than other first world countries... The USA has the highest expenses for military per capita or GDP or in % of budget. This does not really create revenue though. As I stated, the problems are different.
You could have made yourself clearer by stating right away that you looked at (a) external debt and (b) the combination of public and private debt. But looking at the external debt without comparing it to the external assets is pretty useless.

And the difference between public and private assets (or debts) does matter. Private assets can usually easily flee a country when there is a crisis. Thus, the fact that Italy has a fairly low private debt level (and correspondingly high private assets to debt ratio), helps it very little if a lot of these private assets just leave Italy in a crisis. That is why the first number to look at is public debt, then how much of that is towards non-residents and then how much private debt there is that is held by non-residents. Italy scores badly on the first one, but better on the other two. But with all the capital flight from southern Europe, it is loosing out on the other two as well.

JohnDoe98
Jul 2, 2012, 04:53 PM
Yada, yada, yada. We are talking consumer electronics! One year is the norm.
Any electronic device that does not fail from a defect by 12m will last several more years without being abused.


1 year in your country. Also, if most defects happen before 12m, then adding another 12m or 24m shouldn't make a difference right? So you wouldn't actually be getting anything for nothing, you would be getting nothing for nothing. Sounds right.

AppleFan1984
Jul 2, 2012, 04:55 PM
Can't, all I have is two monitors in front of me. They're not Apple so I can't see myself in them.
Turn on any light in your room. Apple only sells glossy displays these days.

manu chao
Jul 2, 2012, 04:59 PM
It seems you're the one who's confused here. Let's take it from the top. A) In EU law consumer has minimum of two year guarantee. B) Apple is only providing one year guarantee. C) This constitutes as breach of EU consumer protection laws hence the actions taken by consumer protection authorities in EU.

Why do people always feel the need to simplify things, and then completely miss the point. Apple is not providing a one year guarantee only, they do provide a two-year (limited) warranty. They just, conveniently for them, largely keep mum about the fact that they do provide this two-year warranty when trying to sell AppleCare.

Glideslope
Jul 2, 2012, 04:59 PM
I could have sworn you are from Alabama, Arizona, Texas or any other horrible thing like that.

Just before I laugh at you, is, according to your truth, Socialist=Bad?

Stereotyping eh? Should I tell you the color of my skin?

I rest my case. Thanks for the help. :)

Nuvi
Jul 2, 2012, 05:04 PM
Why do people always feel the need to simplify things, and then completely miss the point. Apple is not providing a one year guarantee only, they do provide a two-year (limited) warranty. They just, conveniently for them, largely keep mum about the fact that they do provide this two-year warranty when trying to sell AppleCare.

Unfortunately Apple is not providing two year guarantee in all EU countries. Yes, you get it if you call AppleCare and complain but guarantee certificate only states one year.

Galatian
Jul 2, 2012, 05:04 PM
Thats AppleCare+ that is not even available in Europe. In Europe its just the regular AppleCare without any insurance aspects.

I had to check this, as I was really surprised that many people here claim that Apple Care is an insurance. At least here in Europe Apple (http://images.apple.com/legal/applecare/docs/081811_APP_Mac_EMEA_English_v5.4.pdf) is pretty clear on what is covered and what is not...Accidental damage is not covered so it is not an insurance and thus simply an extension for one year of the already promised 2 years of warranty by European guidelines. Oh and you get phone support... I for once can completely understand that the Italian customer watch is enraged about this. Not only is it not very clear what is covered and what is not for whatever amount of time, Apple also seems to be milking European customers by simply offering an high price 1 year extension vice what you would get as an American customer.

Mad-B-One
Jul 2, 2012, 05:05 PM
You hit the nail right on the head...

Silly German. :p It's called "You nailed it!"

Don't mix that up with "You nailed her!" which is the same as "You scewed her!" which is not the same as "You scewed it!" which is the opposite of "You nailed it!"

At least it wasnt a "grab into the toilet." :D

RonWayne
Jul 2, 2012, 05:05 PM
Actually, Reuters claims are wrong.

The AGCM bullettin (PDF here (http://www.codicedelconsumo.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=55) - in italian) states that Apple can be subject to a new "pecuniary penalty" as prescribed by the "Art. 27 - Comma 12 del Codice del Consumo" ("Comma" in Italian law = "Section").

So, no reference from the watchdog of the "suspension of entrepreneurial activity" that indeed is a possible sanction for reiterating the same infringement according to Article 27 - Section 12, though.

Apple can be fined up to 450.000, not 300.000€ (3 international Apple companies involved times 150.000€ maximum fine each).

Ninja Edit: ODF -> PDF

koruki
Jul 2, 2012, 05:06 PM
There are a couple problems Apple face here. Applecare is great, it easily surpasses any other after sales service I've experienced with other products. They replace parts without question almost and there isnt that feeling of being probed left and right to try and make it my fault something stopped working.

The problem with this is there is a much higher cost to offer this level of service. Hence they can't just offer a two year apple care plan compared two a standard two year plan from other manufactures who Ive always had horrible experiences with.

The second is Applecare working globally, I know that if I was overseas and my MBP has a problem. I can simply walk into a apple store to have it fixed without worrying about getting receipts from overseas scanned sent to me just to prove the purchase date.

If they offer a 2 year for european customers, and they travel outside of europe, they dont get 2 years. The only way is to charge european customers with an extra year of Applecare overhead.

blackburn
Jul 2, 2012, 05:08 PM
In Portugal the same thing happens. And Apple complicates matters after the 1st year on warranty repairs (I had trouble getting my ipod classic replaced after the 1 year).

If we get 2 years of warranty in every product including those crappy products why would apple be different? We already pay way more for apples products. A frigging base 13inch mbp costs 1300 eur. That's why some of us import apples stuff instead of buying local, the difference doesn't compensate 1 year of extra warranty.

Just google search "iPhone 4 vodafone portugal garantia" and you get lots of people complaining that nobody honors the iPhone warranty, operator tosses to apple, apple tosses to operator and so on.

So Apple should be fined since all the other brands clearly state that you have 24 months of warranty according to the consumer law.

Edit: On the apple web site they toss the 2nd year warranty responsibility on the retailer maybe that's why they are in trouble.

gnasher729
Jul 2, 2012, 05:27 PM
I never get this legal mumbo-jumbo...

I'm moving to Italy in September, but I'm buying my laptop here in Canada (with apple care). Does this mean that Apple in Italy may not repair my laptop if I have issues?

Check the terms of AppleCare where you bought it. Most likely the cover you have is:

1. Cover through Apple's manufacturer's warranty of one year, valid world wide.
2. No cover whatsoever through EU laws, because you didn't buy in the EU.
3. Cover through AppleCare of three years, valid world wide.


Just google search "iPhone 4 vodafone portugal garantia" and you get lots of people complaining that nobody honors the iPhone warranty, operator tosses to apple, apple tosses to operator and so on.

So Apple should be fined since all the other brands clearly state that you have 24 months of warranty according to the consumer law.

Edit: On the apple web site they toss the 2nd year warranty responsibility on the retailer maybe that's why they are in trouble.

The responsibility _is_ on the retailer. That's what the EU law says. Go to a store and buy a pair of shoes. Do you know who the manufacturer is? You don't. Do you know where the manufacturer is? You don't. Even if you do, what are your chances of getting a manufacturer somewhere in China or Brasil to replace your shoes if they are badly made? That's why the EU law says that the _retailer_ is responsible.

If you bought an iPhone from a carrier, and the carrier says that Apple has to fix it, and Apple says the carrier is responsible, then according to EU law it is clear that Apple is right.


It seems you're the one who's confused here. Let's take it from the top. A) In EU law consumer has minimum of two year guarantee. B) Apple is only providing one year guarantee. C) This constitutes as breach of EU consumer protection laws hence the actions taken by consumer protection authorities in EU.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/guarantees/index_en.htm

The website that you quote is "consumer law for numpties". No useful information that you can extract from it because it is not clear in what it tries to say. Concerning your points, in A) you forget to mention exactly who is supposed to give a guarantee, in B) you forget to mention that Apple plays different roles, and therefore C) is not true.


While they're at it Apple should then leave whole EU region. Every single company operating in EU has to provide two year warranty.

Just checked on www.dell.co.uk. Checked out a laptop, and it says "1 yr Next Day In-Home Hardware Support [Included In Price]". The same for a £299 and for £2,249 laptop. Especially interesting since Dell only sells directly, so they are, in any case, the retailer.

Guess what www.dell.it says: "1 anno di supporto hardware on-site entro un giorno lavorativo & supporto software telefonico [Compreso nel prezzo]" Which I guess means one year warranty.

And www.dell.fr where according to Nuvi the manufacturer themselves is responsible for a two year warranty: "1 an de support matériel sur site le jour suivant [Inclus dans le prix]". Again, one year warranty.

Nuvi
Jul 2, 2012, 05:34 PM
Edit: On the apple web site they toss the 2nd year warranty responsibility on the retailer maybe that's why they are in trouble.

Apple is fully responsible for the two year guarantee only in France, Finland and Sweden (consumer can file complaint either with seller or manufacturer). In other EU countries they can toss the second year responsibility to the seller. However, almost every single major manufacturer provides direct two year warranty in EU. Using the seller as middle man creates additional costs for the manufacturer.

applesith
Jul 2, 2012, 05:39 PM
I personally would expect every product I buy to last at least two years.

If I were to pay extra that would be for insurance.

Well that's not free even if you feel entitled to it.

----------

I REALLY hope your stuff brakes after 13 months. I REALLY DO!

----------

If apple could get away with offering 90 days warranty they would.

In the UK for a £2000 laptop Apple could be forced to fix a defect up to 5 years after purchase. This is because the price of the item affects how long it should reasonably work for after purchase.

As long as you dont drop it or spill stuff on it then generally its impossible for apple to prove that you broke it. Especially if a SSD or CPU or GPU or Screen dies.

Yanks are just pissy because they have no protection

Why? Offering service and coverage for extended time costs money and there is no reason apple should just eat that cost.

----------

so you think people should pay extra so they can ensure they their kit doesnt break.... if you buy something (especially over £1000s worth of computer) it should work for atleast a couple of years.... you shouldnt have to pay extra to ensure this

Why stop at 2 years, why not 5 or 10? It all costs money and someone has to pay. 1 year warranty is very common.

jennyp
Jul 2, 2012, 05:39 PM
Silly German. :p It's called "You nailed it!"

Don't mix that up with "You nailed her!" which is the same as "You scewed her!" which is not the same as "You scewed it!" which is the opposite of "You nailed it!"


Silly American. "You hit the nail right on the head" is a perfectly written colloquialism in UK English meaning, "You got it exactly right."

applesith
Jul 2, 2012, 05:39 PM
Do you really think it is unreasonable to expect a computer costing maybe £2000 to last for more than 12 months?

Dell and all the others charge more for beyond 2 years basic support, why shouldnt apple?

manu chao
Jul 2, 2012, 05:39 PM
Unfortunately Apple is not providing two year guarantee in all EU countries. Yes, you get it if you call AppleCare and complain but guarantee certificate only states one year.
Of course they do, otherwise they would be in much more legal trouble. They are just very picky with the passus that the customer has to prove that the defect was present at the time of purchase.

applesith
Jul 2, 2012, 05:41 PM
I had to pay extra for extended warranty on my car and that was $35k+, so why should it just be free on a 2k machine?

Everyone wants stuff but few will actually pay. Entitlements :rolleyes:

Erwin-Br
Jul 2, 2012, 05:49 PM
Apple with their one year warranty is basically telling you their expensive premium products will likely fail after one year. If they could, they'd offer no warranty at all, because who knows how many yellow screens they already had to replace for free, huh? They'd start their own Yellow Screen Protection Plan if they could :D

Oletros
Jul 2, 2012, 05:51 PM
Why stop at 2 years, why not 5 or 10? It all costs money and someone has to pay. 1 year warranty is very common.

Why one year? It cost money and someone has to pay

----------

I had to pay extra for extended warranty on my car and that was $35k+, so why should it just be free on a 2k machine?

Everyone wants stuff but few will actually pay. Entitlements :rolleyes:

It is not free, do you think that the final price doesn't have it accounted in the EU?

KnightWRX
Jul 2, 2012, 05:54 PM
I had to pay extra for extended warranty on my car and that was $35k+, so why should it just be free on a 2k machine?

Everyone wants stuff but few will actually pay. Entitlements :rolleyes:

Yeah, manufacturers should just be able to sell you anything and never bother to actually make it usable for the purpose for which it is sold. :rolleyes:

I'm happy that our gouvernement mandates that corporations need to make sure you are getting your money's worth when you buy a product. It should be free of manufacturing defects and thus a manufacturer should be responsible for it for its usable lifetime as long as the defect was born of some kind of mistake/part used in manufacturing said product.

My 28k$ car came with a standard 5 year/100,000 km warranty, bumper to bumper coverage and with a 10 year/160,000 km powertrain warranty btw...

jdbr
Jul 2, 2012, 05:58 PM
This is a strange forum. Why are Americans so insecure that they have to write anti-Italian/European comments? What's the problem folks? Apple products are dependent on talent from other countries not just the US to produce their computers, after all it is a very talented Englishman that designs them. Other important parts are also designed in the UK and I'm sure other European countries.
So stop being so parochial and racist.
Apple is simply being asked to comply with the law in Italy. You would assume that any decent company would want to comply with the law of any country they trade in.
Simple really!

Nuvi
Jul 2, 2012, 05:59 PM
Of course they do, otherwise they would be in much more legal trouble. They are just very picky with the passus that the customer has to prove that the defect was present at the time of purchase.

Actually its easy to get the repairs done free of charge after the one year period. Just mention your consumer rights to AppleCare and its solved. If you don't, they seem to oblivious about any two year guarantees. Its somewhat funny that all of this is valid in every single EU country and Apple acknowledges it on their European sites but written documentation on products and AppleCare personnel seem to lack the right information.

blackburn
Jul 2, 2012, 06:02 PM
The responsibility _is_ on the retailer. That's what the EU law says. Go to a store and buy a pair of shoes. Do you know who the manufacturer is? You don't. Do you know where the manufacturer is? You don't. Even if you do, what are your chances of getting a manufacturer somewhere in China or Brasil to replace your shoes if they are badly made? That's why the EU law says that the _retailer_ is responsible.

If you bought an iPhone from a carrier, and the carrier says that Apple has to fix it, and Apple says the carrier is responsible, then according to EU law it is clear that Apple is right.

yeah right. Case 1: you go to an apple premium reseller that explicitly says that any warranty concerns after the 15 day window is not their problem and apples problem. Problem arrives you go to the fine idiots that sold your Mac and they print you a list of authorized apple service providers, so you just got the boot from the retailer (some do send the macs but they are rare like fnac). You go to one of those aasp that some don't even exist or accept apples hardware. Then you hop on to another one that finally accepts your Mac but warns you that since the 1 year is up some parts are not covered by warranty.

Case 2 (Samsung/hp and others): they will pick up the computer, and return it to your home without any cost. Or for the ones that won't pick up, you send it in and nobody complains about anything even if your on the last day of the warranty period.

In my experience apple assistance in Portugal is one of the worst in terms of simplicity. I've had problems with all other brands hp, Samsung, Sony and nobody ever posed any problem with the warranty. And guess what in the best case the retailer sends the product to the official repair company, or if in no brand items they give you a similar one or a refund (on really crappy no name products only though).

And I highly doubt that any pair of shoes have any kind of warranty, unless your talking about premium shoes.

Edit: I forgot about N*kia, those smartasses liked to try dodging your warranty if the problem was software (that didn't have any bug fix for it), swollen batteries (even during the 6 months of the battery warranty) or if the repair was too complicated, fortunately they are pretty much mia.

SpiderDude
Jul 2, 2012, 06:05 PM
And suddenly, I'm not so proud of being in the Apple community.
I'm a Machead. I defend OSX with my life (at least till Snow Leopard), iOS not so much because i don't own a iOS device.

But this.. This discussion is silly, bunch a teen fanboys criticizing the EU over something they know nothing about. Looks like Oletros is one of the few with good sense over here in this discussion. Look at my join date, been here way before that.

Also, I'm Portuguese (yes, it's a country in Europe), I've got a degree in Economics and I'm majoring in Finance, I'm not just talking out of nowhere.
Apple is using Europe as a playground for different profit tactics. (check the new MBP prices over here) 2450$ for the base 15 inch. That's a joke right?

No go back to being the civilized intelligent mob I'm used to and proud to be a part of.

alfistas
Jul 2, 2012, 06:11 PM
I find it VERY STRANGE that some people here dislike the idea of a 2 year warranty for their >2k computers...

...then again who am I to judge? Others like S&M or bondage :confused:

Nuvi
Jul 2, 2012, 06:16 PM
I find it VERY STRANGE that some people here dislike the idea of a 2 year warranty for their >2k computers...


Its more like some Americans are jealous because Europeans have "free" two year warranty. After one checks the Apple's prices in Europe you come to the sad realization that Europeans have already paid for that extra one year warranty.

alfistas
Jul 2, 2012, 06:40 PM
Its more like some Americans are jealous because Europeans have "free" two year warranty. After one checks the Apple's prices in Europe you come to the sad realization that Europeans have already paid for that extra one year warranty.

I always thought that US customers got a discount at the expense of pretty much everyone else. This seems like standard policy for technology products including Apple's.

Oh well... I suppose that's the price Europe has to pay for not investing enough in the computer industry.

Where is the European equivalent to Apple/Microsoft/Google??

achiskon
Jul 2, 2012, 06:50 PM
I think that Apple is rich enough to not be threatened financially by the 2 year warranty, something that all other hardware companies have been providing for years (at least in Europe). The right thing to do is to honor these laws, and if you ask me, when i pay 2000$ for a laptop i expect it to last more than a year.

I feel disgusted by the first comments i read here of some users supporting Apple's 1 year warranty and cursing Italy/EU for this regulation. What the hell people? We are all customers after all, fans or not! Stop supporting Apple at everything, sometimes it's not right!
I'd really like to see your faces with a fried logic board at 14 months after purchase date..

gnasher729
Jul 2, 2012, 06:52 PM
yeah right. Case 1: you go to an apple premium reseller that explicitly says that any warranty concerns after the 15 day window is not their problem and apples problem. Problem arrives you go to the fine idiots that sold your Mac and they print you a list of authorized apple service providers, so you just got the boot from the retailer (some do send the macs but they are rare like fnac). You go to one of those aasp that some don't even exist or accept apples hardware. Then you hop on to another one that finally accepts your Mac but warns you that since the 1 year is up some parts are not covered by warranty.

As I said (and as EU law says), the "fine idiots that sold your Mac" are responsible to get it fixed. Within the first six months they are responsible unless they can prove that the fault wasn't present when you received the item (in other words, if you broke it or someone else broke it). After that, they can require that you demonstrate the product was faulty when you received it. Anyway, in this situation they are breaking the law. The AASP isn't.

(Another advantage of AppleCare is of course that _if_ you have the bad luck of running into a retailer who refuses your rights, or who went bankrupt, AppleCare will cover you as well).


I always thought that US customers got a discount at the expense of pretty much everyone else. This seems like standard policy for technology products including Apple's.

Of course not. There are just too many people who don't realise that US prices exclude tax, while EU prices include sales tax.


And I highly doubt that any pair of shoes have any kind of warranty, unless your talking about premium shoes.

They don't have manufacturer's warranty, but they are covered by the same laws as an expensive computer. I have had a shoe shop replace my shoes (which turned out to be badly manufactured). I have had a shop replace cufflinks that broke after wearing them for a week, and they replaced them again when the next pair didn't last longer. What makes you think these items wouldn't be covered?

theluggage
Jul 2, 2012, 07:12 PM
I think that Apple is rich enough to not be threatened financially by the 2 year warranty,

The problem is likely not the cost of providing the required 2-year warranty itself, but the reduction in lucrative AppleCare sales as a result.

Extended warranties on electrical/electronic goods are big business, and are a license to print money because they cover devices over the 2nd-3rd years of their life when the failure rate is lowest.

There has been a lot of fuss about stores pushing extended warranties (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16923295) - claiming that you'll be high and dry if the product goes wrong after 6 months/1 year is a common ploy.

Ironduke
Jul 2, 2012, 07:47 PM
Silly American. "You hit the nail right on the head" is a perfectly written colloquialism in UK English meaning, "You got it exactly right."

you nailed him jenny:p

cgk.emu
Jul 2, 2012, 07:50 PM
A 2 year warranty also helps weed out the planned obsolescence of some products.

I personally don't see how it does. It simply means they would have to repair a product under warranty...it has nothing to do with not introducing new products quickly.

alfistas
Jul 2, 2012, 07:50 PM
Of course not. There are just too many people who don't realise that US prices exclude tax, while EU prices include sales tax.

If I had a penny every time this argument came up...

Your statement is simply NOT TRUE! and this is why:

US APPLE STORE
Retina MacBook Pro: $2,799.00 (high end model)

German APPLE STORE
Retina MacBook Pro: $2,954.95 ex.vat 19% (high end model) -- at today's exchange rate from (www.xe.com)

-----------------------------------


The price difference is $155.95


I would do the UK Apple Store too, but I'm not sure my heart can take it...

marksman
Jul 2, 2012, 09:52 PM
Europe must be dumb. Apple offers a much more useful one year warranty than anyone else's two year warranty. This absurd.

----------

I think Apple should call their bluff and just pull out of Italy, including closing all of the iTunes, app and book stores.

I rather suspect it wouldn't be long before there was a new set of regulators overseeing that section of the Italian government.

Italy is the electronics and media capital of the world.

----------

Apple is getting in trouble because its executives can't read. The law.

----------



How is that better than following the law like any other company and actually making a benefit to the consumer?

I gaurantee you Apple's one year warranty is better than almost anyone else's two year warranty.

All this means is Apple will create a much less beneficial two year warranty for Europe. Apple has one of the best warranty programs and services in the world. Good job screwing that up Europe.

----------

Saying something twice does not make it more true. It is actually an italian interpretation of an EU directive. Apple is not in trouble in all EU countries, only ones that are looking to shake down Apple for money. EU countries are not required to enforce all of those directives in the same way.

I think you are also a bit confused about the directive. The directive refers to the "retailer". The retailer is required to supply a two year warranty, not the manufacturer. Apple can simply raise their prices in EU countries demanding two year warranties and withdrawing the offer for "applecare" or offer an additional 3rd year warranty under the "applecare" moniker.

Yeah people don't seem to get that this is only bad news for Italian consumers. Apple can create a simplified warranty plan in Italy that does not include the benefits of AppleCare. Perhaps if you have a problem with a device it gets sent to apple for six weeks for repairs.

----------

How is a two year warranty raising prices for "everyone"?

I don't have a problem with paying for extra warranty as long as the price is right. I did that when I purchased my Powerbook G4 and it came in handy because I needed the screen replaced twice. But for a $2000+ Apple product an extra year would be nice. Then just as your two years is about to end you can purchase another two years. I could go with that.

Heck fyi, my $20 coffee pot comes with a two year warranty. I know that's a very different product and service but I thought is was worth mentioning.

The problem is a government mandated warranty may not carry the superior AppleCare service with it. Italians should punch their government in the nads.

----------

Ahhhh...were did I suggest anything remotely like that? It's all made in China anyway...my point was, that a lot of people here on MacRumors make it sound like it's a good thing to have less warranty, because American companies have them brainwashed or whatever...I gladly buy a product from a company that gives me a long warranty...that just shows that they are confident in their owns product...

Oh and please...Apple products are made in China as well...


So you would rather have four years of a limited pain in the butt warranty or three years of a nearly all encompassing world class warranty like apple care?

----------

I'm tired of people discussing the wrong issue whenever this topic comes up.

The EU doesn't simply mandate "two years of warranty" that is equivalent to AppleCare. EU warranty only applies to defects that already existed at the time of sale. And after 6 months, the customer has to prove that the defect existed back then. The effective warranty (i.e. the one 99% of people get to use) is 6 months.

Also, the warranty has to provided by the seller, not the manufacturer.

Yeah people don't get it. Apple already provides one year of premium warranty with its products. They are not necessarily going to just extend that to two. Instead Italians will get the same crappy two year warranty every company offers and they can buy three years of premium apple care support on top of it. All this does is turn one year of a premium warranty service into two years of worthless warranty service.

ixodes
Jul 2, 2012, 10:20 PM
Apple is so used to calling all the shots, that to comply with another countries rules / laws is horribly painful for them. This ought to be interesting.

Daveoc64
Jul 2, 2012, 10:51 PM
Europe must be dumb. Apple offers a much more useful one year warranty than anyone else's two year warranty. This absurd.

I don't see how paying for an out of warranty repair could be seen as "better" than having to wait a few days for a repair.

If you really felt that disadvantaged, you could buy a reasonable phone to use in the downtime and still save money compared to an Apple replacement.

Nokia:

19 months after I bought the phone (2007), SIM card reader not working
Nokia sent me a box via UPS, including return postage - next day delivery both ways.
The phone came back within 4 days, fully repaired (not just replaced) - I didn't pay a penny

Apple:

14 months after I got the phone
I'm sorry, but your home button doesn't work anymore and we can't repair or replace that, so you have to pay £120 for a re-manufactured phone

The Nokia phone still works!

macingman
Jul 2, 2012, 11:07 PM
Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

Just because you think it's stupid doesn't mean it is.

Apple operates internationally because of that they have to respect each countries laws apple are not immune they are a business. I have no idea why when apple gets in trouble for breaking laws all the fanboys rush the it's aid.

----------

Oh and BTW apples warranty isn't that "superior". Dell once sent a technician to my home within 12 hours of me calling then where the laptop was REPAIRED and not REPLACED in my own home. And this was the basic warranty offered. If I have a problem with an apple product I have to drive for 30 mins to speak to a "genius" which is rude, has terrible social skills and knows hardly anything to PERHAPS get my product REPLACED therefore losing all my info and needing to restore from a backup which is more hassle then it's worth to even get the product replaced.

Daveoc64
Jul 2, 2012, 11:08 PM
Oh and BTW apples warranty isn't that "superior". Dell once sent a technician to my home within 12 hours of me calling then where the laptop was REPAIRED and not REPLACED in my own home. And this was the basic warranty offered. If I have a problem with an apple product I have to drive for 30 mins to speak to a "genius" which is rude, has terrible social skills and knows hardly anything to PERHAPS get my product REPLACED therefore losing all my info and needing to restore from a backup which is more hassle then it's worth to even get the product replaced.

I forgot my Laptop experience.

I had a similar experience with both Dell and Apple.

Having a professional that's able to disassemble the laptop, fix the motherboard and put it together again on my dining room table is just so much better than the "Genius" bar.

My 2004 Dell Laptop (the one that was fixed in 2006) is still working fine.

My 2007 MacBook has a bulging battery.

charlituna
Jul 2, 2012, 11:18 PM
It's good that they (the Italian regulators) are bringing this up because this is something many EU customers aren't aware of and end up unnecessarily buying Apple Care..

on the contrary. Apple Care offers customers something that isn't covered in said laws -- repairs for anything defective at any time during the coverage period regardless of whether the defect was present at time of purchase and can be proven as such by the customer as required by law, and regardless of where the item was purchased so long as the seller is authorized by Apple to do so. And on computers for a period of 12 months beyond what is required by said law.

And since we aren't at said stores watching every sale we can't say that they aren't telling customers about the law and what they don't get under it versus what they do with Apple Care

gpzjock
Jul 3, 2012, 12:48 AM
I'm a bit saddened that Corporate America still believes that the laws and governances of other countries are not to be given anything more than lip service, after all what do us Europeans know about laws and civilised society? :D
The EU has punished Micro$oft for indiscretions and monopoly management previously, iTunes has fallen foul of the same accusations in France when the AAC file format it sold only worked on iPods (or at least claimed to).
Now Apple continue to avoid clear and honest advertising to up sell Applecare in a country where they know damn fine consumers have considerably more rights than in the Wild West of the consumer frontier they call home.
If I came to America and insisted driving my car on the wrong side of the road because that's what I do back home in the UK you would be just as justified in stopping me.
John Lewis in the UK have offered free 2 year warranty cover on Macbook Pro sales as an incentive to buy one from them rather than anybody else, despite the UK only having a 1 year mandatory manufacturer's warranty. Now that is using your head to up sell a product.

Apple made $8.81 billion in European revenue last quarter, I don't see them taking their ball home just yet.
;)

Konrad
Jul 3, 2012, 02:02 AM
There we go again. Anything to increase profits, the ass like convoluted small print written by greedy Dick. There are fewer men among the geeks everyday. It is as simple as respecting others.

As markets, warranties, cost go, German cars are less expensive in US, historically have much better at no extra cost warranties in America versus the one year coverage in most EU markets.

Regardless of apple origins it has sadly become today a dick company. Whether it is Iceland, the republic of Congo, the moon, where local societies elected certain laws and you are a guest peddler, just obey them.

biallystock
Jul 3, 2012, 02:10 AM
Is there any wonder why Italy's economy is in the *******? Toilet? Crapper?

Umm, you're in Arizona and criticising Italy's economy?

There has been some debate over whether America is actually solvent.

If China ever decides to pull the immense amount of reserves it holds in the States, the debate will be over.

kevinof
Jul 3, 2012, 02:16 AM
You dont get it. I can buy a phone from Apple here (direct) in Ireland. There may be nothing wrong with it but in say 18 months from now it may fail for some reason. The fault doesn't have to be there originally and I don't have to prove ANYTHING.

Apple must fix or replace the phone. End of story.

on the contrary. Apple Care offers customers something that isn't covered in said laws -- repairs for anything defective at any time during the coverage period regardless of whether the defect was present at time of purchase and can be proven as such by the customer as required by law, and regardless of where the item was purchased so long as the seller is authorized by Apple to do so. And on computers for a period of 12 months beyond what is required by said law.

And since we aren't at said stores watching every sale we can't say that they aren't telling customers about the law and what they don't get under it versus what they do with Apple Care

Sue De Nimes
Jul 3, 2012, 02:50 AM
Dell and all the others charge more for beyond 2 years basic support, why shouldnt apple?

I think the law should be applied in the same way.

It isn't about support though, it is about the warranty protection. I don't have a problem with Apple charging for extended support. I bought Applecare for this very reason as a switcher from Windows.

I don't think companies like Apple OR Dell should be charging people for warranty protection for a product from 12-24 months. Any computer should be built to last more than 12 months. If there is a hardware failure after 16 months for example then that indicates a substandard piece of hardware and as such the manufacturers responsibility to deal with it.

iStudentUK
Jul 3, 2012, 02:52 AM
If I had a penny every time this argument came up...

Your statement is simply NOT TRUE! and this is why:

US APPLE STORE
Retina MacBook Pro: $2,799.00 (high end model)

German APPLE STORE
Retina MacBook Pro: $2,954.95 ex.vat 19% (high end model) -- at today's exchange rate from (www.xe.com)

-----------------------------------


The price difference is $155.95


I would do the UK Apple Store too, but I'm not sure my heart can take it...

Germany and the UK are obviously in the EU, therefore Apple has to provide its employees in these countries with proper benefits like high minimum wages, 6 weeks min paid holiday, paid sick leave, maternity leave, paternity leave etc- things they either don't get or are watered down in the US. On top of that consumers har better rights in the US- this 'warranty' for one, distance selling laws etc. I am NOT saying that is a bad thing, in fact for all the benefits European consumers and employees get compared to US counterparts I think and extra ~5% after VAT is a bargain, rather there is good reason for higher prices.

Sue De Nimes
Jul 3, 2012, 02:57 AM
on the contrary. Apple Care offers customers something that isn't covered in said laws -- repairs for anything defective at any time during the coverage period regardless of whether the defect was present at time of purchase and can be proven as such by the customer as required by law, and regardless of where the item was purchased so long as the seller is authorized by Apple to do so. And on computers for a period of 12 months beyond what is required by said law.

And since we aren't at said stores watching every sale we can't say that they aren't telling customers about the law and what they don't get under it versus what they do with Apple Care

In the EU, goods are not just covered for faults present at the time of purchase. Goods must also be durable and last a reasonable period of time. The length of time they should last is relative to how much was paid for them. If you bought an egg cup that cracked after 4 years of use then that isn't unreasonable.

There is a minimum period of cover of 2 years across the EU. Some countries have more than this - up to 6 years in the UK.

Oletros
Jul 3, 2012, 03:16 AM
In the EU, goods are not just covered for faults present at the time of purchase. Goods must also be durable and last a reasonable period of time. The length of time they should last is relative to how much was paid for them. If you bought an egg cup that cracked after 4 years of use then that isn't unreasonable.

There is a minimum period of cover of 2 years across the EU. Some countries have more than this - up to 6 years in the UK.


No, this is not an EU directive, is an UK law, EU only says that the guarantee is two years an it is independent from the good price

joshuakarjala
Jul 3, 2012, 03:23 AM
In Denmark - the issue is furthermore, that they don't actually respect the EU directive when you have a problem.

If you contact Apple or any of their resellers, outside the 1year standard Apple coverage - they immediately ask if you have AppleCare, and otherwise refuse to fix the problem without charge.

Eg. battery in MBP goes completely dead after 14 months suddenly. Not just less capacity - NON FUNCTIONAL. First I both call Apple and the Reseller. They both claim that since I'm outside AppleCare coverage they won't fix it.


I refer to the law which states a 2 year warranty on all parts of the product.
They ignore this, and say that they don't cover replacement of batteries - as this is seen as a naturally decaying part of the product.
I highlight the fact, that I'm not complaining that my battery doesn't last the full 4-5 hours. But that it doesn't work at all after 14 months. And it was a sudden incident - going from a status of about 80% to not working in an instant.
Same bla bla response
I mention to Apple that I actually have an extended AppleCare (I bought because I was taking the MBP to the US on exchange, and wanted the Worldwide coverage).
I immediately get an Apple repair number and get the battery exchanged within a few days - no charge


TLDR: It's not only about how they advertise AppleCare. They actively refuse to actually honor up to the local laws - and only honor AppleCare.

SilenceBe
Jul 3, 2012, 03:43 AM
So, I'm curious, do European companies push these extended warranties? Here in the US, we are hounded to buy them for just about everything but groceries.
Extended warranties mostly go for 5 years here in Belgium. But in reality they are just a scam. There are to much small sentences which gives them a lot of room to weasel out. I don't trust that kind of companies because everything is for maximizing their own profit, not for the greater good.

Really the minimal 2 year warranty is a blessing. It results in having products on the market which is better designed. Our markets don't get over flooded with crap because on the long run it cost the manufacturer more money. You don't need to buy expensive warranty plans that in practice doesn't get honored anyway because they always find a loophole.

In Great Brittain they even go further as (imo very logical) they even take in account what you can generally expect how long something should work without breaking. A 1000 pound laptop shouldn't break after 2 years for example.

That being said Apple has been in breach with the local law for years and we payed a premium on the prices even WITHOUT getting what the law mandates... . So the "higher prices are because longer warranty" doesn't fly. We only got the one year, while the law mandates 2 years. There are a lot of consumers who have payed a hefty price to fix their mac after a year, while by law it should be covered under warranty.

They also are aware of the local laws because when you put your foot down, making a complaint with the authorities or treating to sue, they backed down. But it always involved bringing up your blood pressure up.

kmv2012
Jul 3, 2012, 03:45 AM
I can't believe what I'm reading here...

First: This is European law NOT Italian.

Second: If you Americans are willing to pay so much money for gadgets that are only garrantied to run for...what?...90 days...go ahead...no wonder NOBODY except Americans purchase ****** American cars...

Third: The law actually states that in the first year of warranty the producer has to prove the user was handling it wrong, whilst the second year the user has to prove there was a material problem.

Fourth: I just purchased a new MacBook Air and decides against paying over 200€ for one additional year of warranty. What's the chance of a part failing in three year when it hasn't in the two years before? It's more like you have accidental damage or it get's stolen. I rather use the money to buy an insurance in that case.

Fifth: We have a lot of gadget that last decades...think Miele Washmachines...I actually expect them to hold out that long and Miele actually does give you their own 5 year warranty on it as many other manufactures do...Apple is cheeping out on everything to keep their high profit margin. They could easily give you a 5 year warranty as well, but why bother if you have sheeps like you fools you actually think THIS is the reason why Italian economy is bad.

Sixth: On that matter. It is actually a crisis of mostly banks here in Europe...and guess where it started: America...Sublime credits anyone? Just so that you guys can buy crappy houses and ****** car's that you really couldn't afford (including Apple products) the entire world economy has been screwed...So do us the favor and think before giving smart answers...

Seventh: Oh and Apple product are more expensive because of our VAT...we have 19% here in Germany...US has what?...0-10%?

Well said!! I just registered to make this comment. Unbelievable how many Americans know jack **** about what is going on in Europe.

peterbaby
Jul 3, 2012, 04:22 AM
It's incredible how such debates trigger EU-USA wars.

- Firstly, EU law says products should be guaranteed for 2 years. It is a European "directive" and as such, it has been translated into local law in all EU countries. So the debate "it is EU law" or it is Italian law is irrelevant: it is both.

- The fact that products need to be guaranteed for 2 years may well increase the overall price, but the EU (and even before this law, many countries in Europe) have decided that you can't sell crap and don't repair it after 12,1 months. This drives quality up, and forces companies to take responsibility.
It may not be the way the US has decided to go, but I don't see how this can't be a respectable choice: people and consumers are more important than companies in Europe, simply because citizens elect democratic governments, not companies.
Besides, 2 years is not a crazy thing, we're not talking 10 years for a laptop here!

- The whole issue here is about how the AppleCare guarantee is presented. No matter the small print, there is indeed some clear misleading advertising: the AppleCare packages show 2 "guarantee bars". One says "Standard guarantee" and stops at 1 year, the other one shows Apple Care and stops at 3.
The fact is, you cannot advertise A and provide B in the small print. The package is misleading in that it pretends to be adding 2 years of guarantee, whereas it only adds one extra year to the legal guarantee.

Bottom line: if you don't like EU law, don't move to the EU (many US commenters probably haven't even been to Canada anyway).
Don't mention the EU banking crisis, it just proves you have got not economic knowledge at all and aren't aware that the US are also in a very bad debt/bank situation.
Lastly, if you think the EU is such a poor continent, look at the facts and figures (life expectancy, human development index, purchasing power...). Overall in Western Europe, people live longer and happier than US citizens...which is pretty incompatible with redneck accusations of marxism-leninism.

Lastly, reflect on the fact that things are far from being perfect on either continents... and that this guarantee stuff is not worth launching a 3rd world war :) Read several newspapers, open new books, open up to the fascinating differences and similarities of both our western societies which aren't so bad, and smile!

cooldaniel1991
Jul 3, 2012, 04:25 AM
i live in Italy, NO ONE of you understood what happened and what Apple do. if you look on the internet and search for apple 1 year warranty, you will be redirected to hundreds or thousands of cases of products purchased in the Apple Store online or at the apple store (retail) where Apple does not want to repair the products and asked the people to buy Apple care to have repaired the product.


Italy's law say that your product till the LAST day of the second year like a " product of the same category buyed this day". the first year the producter must repair the product the second year the shop where you buyed it, in this case apple is both.

That's it. Apple want to be different as the other producters. And i don't know i many thousand people paid 69 euro or more for the macs for this Apple Care because the employer said it and in the website was written too ONLY 1 YEAR warranty and not 2 ( 1 year Apple and 1 the shop , 2 years apple in the case of apple online store and apple stores).

So who's ignorant now ? Apple or the Italians?

Bezetos
Jul 3, 2012, 04:31 AM
Well that's not free even if you feel entitled to it.

What do you mean it's not free? I'm expecting a product to be of high quality and last at least two years. I'm already paying for quality. If a device lasts me shorter than 2 years, it's not of high quality. Period.

baryon
Jul 3, 2012, 04:33 AM
Apple often fixes their products out of warranty. I had an iPod fixed more than once well beyond the one year. Just read another post this morning about a guy getting his battery replaced in a 17" MBP after warranty. (and that's a consumable, warranty shouldn't be as long, anyway) This is frequently how Apple treats its customers, and part of why so many are zealous about the company.


I tried getting my MacBook Pro fixed, which has a faulty discreet graphics card (quite a big deal since it requires replacing the whole motherboard). It also has a failed SuperDrive (won't burn anything) and one fan died and then came back to life a year later. My battery also started expanding, which they did replace after I told them that I'm afraid it would explode and cause harm (I knew it can't but who cares). These are all independent problems, and could not have been caused by me. They refused to fix anything, even though I came back to the Apple Store about 5 times and talked to 5 different people there, so I just gave up.


Only if you don't drive it. The miles are the real warranty. Mine said 10 years, didn't last 5. (the warranty, the car is still great)


I think Nissan offers 7 years of warranty, no matter what, and they're pretty cheap cars.


Cameras and HDDs do not usually have more than 1 year warranty. Not the consumer-level stuff. Not in the USA.


But this article is about Apple in Italy, not the US. Just because Apple is a US based company doesn't mean they get to do everything by US laws even in Europe. The point is that they have to offer more warranty in the EU because that's the law, if they want to sell their products here.

Though I think it would be fair to offer 2-3 years of warranty everywhere in the world. I mean why not? Is it really so hard to guarantee that the "most advanced computer in the world" (and has barely any moving parts) will work for more than a year? I think it's extremely absurd that you buy something this expensive and there's a very realistic chance that you'll have to buy it again a year later.

I think it should be as simple as this: if a product you buy should last 3 years, based on expected lifetime, then that's how much warranty there should be. You don't expect a car to last 1 year only, so you give more than 1 year of warranty. You expect a plastic spoon to last for only a few minutes, so there's no warranty. You expect your clothes to last a few months at least, depending on your usage inevitably, so you get about 6 months of warranty. Now I'm sure you expect a Nikon D300s DSLR or a MacBook Pro to last 3-4 years. The Nikon D300s I bought in the UK came with 3 years of warranty, and I think that's just normal. The MacBook Pro? Only one year. And they were priced about the same! The difference? The DSLR gets thrown around a lot more and has way more moving parts, so is much more prone to failure, yet it's the one that gets much more warranty and doesn't have any problems! The MacBook Pro, on the other hand, has not many moving parts yet the freaking soldering melted on the nVidia graphics card because it was that badly designed… It's stupid! It's like Apple knows that their computers won't last long and they expect you to buy a new one every year.

sasasule
Jul 3, 2012, 04:59 AM
In Netherlands is same story...Thing is that nobody in the shop will tell you honestly how really are...

Shop itself should provide 1year warranty

EU law adding on top of that 1 more year of warranty (if you don't tell this they will not tell you inside of the shop)

Apple care provides 3years of cover including repairing.

So at end you are paying only for 1 extra year not 3years how they state...

Sales people instead to explain properly they BS people by telling them hey you have 1year + 3years on apple care...if you put that by simple math it suppose to be 4years total...

It is just political wording used to make you confused :)

BY EU law every country in EU should have 1+1year of warranty but nobody will tell you that....

Geekbabe
Jul 3, 2012, 05:22 AM
I am a reasonably bright woman & I'd imagine that Italians browsing the Apple store are also reasonably bright. Having said that let me also say that I've read this entire thread and am confused.

It would appear to me that the Italian courts are holding Apple responsible for just this sort of confusion, Apple has a duty to spell out in clear simple language what warranty rights consumers have under Italian law & if they are offering AppleCare to also clearly spell out what advantages this purchase will give to a customer. Omitting that information or saying " click here" to lead a consumer to a PDF filled with legal speak in tiny print is misleading & could cause the average consumer to believe they need to buy AppleCare because without it their warranty coverage will be rather limited.

If companies wish to do business globally they must comply with the laws in each country, including whatever consumer protection laws are in place, why would anyone expect that Apple be exempt from this?

Apoxie
Jul 3, 2012, 05:36 AM
Bingo! It just means higher prices in the EU. Somebody has to pay for these warranties whether or not they are government-imposed. I say that Apple just raises the price by 10% across the board and gets really specific about what warranty comes with the product and what is included in AppleCare. The 10% hike in price should more than make up for the loss of AppleCare sales.

What european contries require, is for the producer to make a product that is guaranteed to work for atleast 2 years. It just means it has to meet a minimum quality standard. I find that wise.

And if you design your products with this in mind, the cost should not differ that much from a 1 year lifespan of products. Metals, plastics and so on easily last 2 years as standard.

PS: On the danish site they also write about 1 year warranty, which is illegal. All warranties in Denmark are 2 years by default and the producer cannot shorten this.

Ciclismo
Jul 3, 2012, 05:43 AM
The second is Applecare working globally, I know that if I was overseas and my MBP has a problem. I can simply walk into a apple store to have it fixed without worrying about getting receipts from overseas scanned sent to me just to prove the purchase date.

If they offer a 2 year for european customers, and they travel outside of europe, they dont get 2 years. The only way is to charge european customers with an extra year of Applecare overhead.

The 2 year warranty is only valid in the EU, not globally.

----------


The responsibility _is_ on the retailer. That's what the EU law says. Go to a store and buy a pair of shoes. Do you know who the manufacturer is? You don't. Do you know where the manufacturer is? You don't. Even if you do, what are your chances of getting a manufacturer somewhere in China or Brasil to replace your shoes if they are badly made? That's why the EU law says that the _retailer_ is responsible.

And for many, many sales, Apple is the retailer, either via the Apple on-line store, or via their Brick'n'Mortar stores.

Drago89
Jul 3, 2012, 05:49 AM
I like Apple, but here i go with Italy :) And i don't understand all the diss from all americans. What's your problem actually is ? There'r walls in Eu and they are for everyone, including apple, whether they like it or not. If they want to sell their computers, then they have to deal with that. Why americans have to pay for extended warranty, and europeans not, some say ? - well that's your problem

blackburn
Jul 3, 2012, 05:59 AM
In Denmark - the issue is furthermore, that they don't actually respect the EU directive when you have a problem.

If you contact Apple or any of their resellers, outside the 1year standard Apple coverage - they immediately ask if you have AppleCare, and otherwise refuse to fix the problem without charge.

Eg. battery in MBP goes completely dead after 14 months suddenly. Not just less capacity - NON FUNCTIONAL. First I both call Apple and the Reseller. They both claim that since I'm outside AppleCare coverage they won't fix it.


I refer to the law which states a 2 year warranty on all parts of the product.
They ignore this, and say that they don't cover replacement of batteries - as this is seen as a naturally decaying part of the product.
I highlight the fact, that I'm not complaining that my battery doesn't last the full 4-5 hours. But that it doesn't work at all after 14 months. And it was a sudden incident - going from a status of about 80% to not working in an instant.
Same bla bla response
I mention to Apple that I actually have an extended AppleCare (I bought because I was taking the MBP to the US on exchange, and wanted the Worldwide coverage).
I immediately get an Apple repair number and get the battery exchanged within a few days - no charge


TLDR: It's not only about how they advertise AppleCare. They actively refuse to actually honor up to the local laws - and only honor AppleCare.



The same thing happens in other countries like Portugal. They systematically refuse to provide warranty on products after the 1 year. Asking the complains book sometimes help them to honor the warranty tough. The trick is to buy insurance and when it breaks you just toss the mac/ipod/ipad to ground an claim the "accidental" damage insurance, many friends of mine do that and even some retailer employees suggest that (I wonder why:rolleyes:).

alfistas
Jul 3, 2012, 07:58 AM
Germany and the UK are obviously in the EU, therefore Apple has to provide its employees in these countries with proper benefits like high minimum wages, 6 weeks min paid holiday, paid sick leave, maternity leave, paternity leave etc- things they either don't get or are watered down in the US. On top of that consumers har better rights in the US- this 'warranty' for one, distance selling laws etc. I am NOT saying that is a bad thing, in fact for all the benefits European consumers and employees get compared to US counterparts I think and extra ~5% after VAT is a bargain, rather there is good reason for higher prices.

I was referring to the German ONLINE store. All European Online stores are situated in Ireland...

Need I say more?

allmIne
Jul 3, 2012, 08:06 AM
With the greatest of respect to the vast majority of informed, personable and genuinely lovely Americans - if I see one more person criticise the European economic situation, with no reference to where that particular economic storm birthed, I'm going to go mad.

Oh, and defending Apple in this regard is taking 'fanboy' to hitherto unreached levels, given it actively harms the consumer.

And one last thing. A poster earlier specifically identified himself as American, then went on to criticise 'Europeans' for taking 2 month vacations. Every time an American says something like that - something so completely basis, so far removed from fact as to be a pointless contribution - the 99.9% of your country that is wonderfully informed on world affairs dies a little inside!

:(

Galatian
Jul 3, 2012, 08:10 AM
If I had a penny every time this argument came up...

Your statement is simply NOT TRUE! and this is why:

US APPLE STORE
Retina MacBook Pro: $2,799.00 (high end model)

German APPLE STORE
Retina MacBook Pro: $2,954.95 ex.vat 19% (high end model) -- at today's exchange rate from (www.xe.com)

-----------------------------------


The price difference is $155.95


I would do the UK Apple Store too, but I'm not sure my heart can take it...

Ahhhh I don't get this...the German store sells the base model 15" rMacBook Pro for 2279€ which includes VAT and translates to 2870$ as of today. The American Apple store sells the rMBP for 2199$. You'll have to add anything between 0-10% VAT on that which in worst case add another 220$ so that'll be 2420$, which is still 400$ less then what Germans (and other European customers have to pay).

Or when you look at just base price without VAT Germans have to pay 1915€ = 2412$, while Americans pay 2199$ base price...

No matter how you turn and twist it: Europeans pay substantially more...

Europe must be dumb. Apple offers a much more useful one year warranty than anyone else's two year warranty. This absurd.

I gaurantee you Apple's one year warranty is better than almost anyone else's two year warranty.

All this means is Apple will create a much less beneficial two year warranty for Europe. Apple has one of the best warranty programs and services in the world. Good job screwing that up Europe.

Yeah people don't get it. Apple already provides one year of premium warranty with its products. They are not necessarily going to just extend that to two. Instead Italians will get the same crappy two year warranty every company offers and they can buy three years of premium apple care support on top of it. All this does is turn one year of a premium warranty service into two years of worthless warranty service.

Ouch...warranty = warranty. If it's broken because of a material damage they have to fix it...as I already stated Apple Care here in Europe does not offer anything more besides this basic repair. It is not an insurance. Tell me exactly HOW Apple is overing a "premium" warranty?

If you mean by premium the practice of Apple to give you a refurbished phone as a replacement for you entirely new (but broken) phone then you might go with that definition...for the rest of the world who has their head straight on this is just business as usual and nothing special or intact subpar compared to manufactures who actually give you a brand new product.

Oh and whoever said Dell is more expensive: Their warranty is actually 150€ compared to Apples 299€ - 399€ Apple Care here in Europe and they actually offer more service (and an additional insurance). This is definitely much more for much less money.

Please stop being such an Apple Sheep it is embarrassing. This company drives by making people think they need completely useless things which are way overpriced (100€ for 16GB more Flash...really?!? or a 399€ insurance which only adds one more year)

Mad-B-One
Jul 3, 2012, 08:14 AM
In Denmark - the issue is furthermore, that they don't actually respect the EU directive when you have a problem.

If you contact Apple or any of their resellers, outside the 1year standard Apple coverage - they immediately ask if you have AppleCare, and otherwise refuse to fix the problem without charge.

Eg. battery in MBP goes completely dead after 14 months suddenly. Not just less capacity - NON FUNCTIONAL. First I both call Apple and the Reseller. They both claim that since I'm outside AppleCare coverage they won't fix it.


I refer to the law which states a 2 year warranty on all parts of the product.
They ignore this, and say that they don't cover replacement of batteries - as this is seen as a naturally decaying part of the product.
I highlight the fact, that I'm not complaining that my battery doesn't last the full 4-5 hours. But that it doesn't work at all after 14 months. And it was a sudden incident - going from a status of about 80% to not working in an instant.
Same bla bla response
I mention to Apple that I actually have an extended AppleCare (I bought because I was taking the MBP to the US on exchange, and wanted the Worldwide coverage).
I immediately get an Apple repair number and get the battery exchanged within a few days - no charge


TLDR: It's not only about how they advertise AppleCare. They actively refuse to actually honor up to the local laws - and only honor AppleCare.

Without AppleCare (I know, you had it but just for the argument you wouldn't): Sorry to tell you that batteries are not covered by the law. They are products that break under normal wear and tare. Like in a new car, you have breaks and oil wear and you don't have a warranty on those either. So, it would be your responsibility indeed to replace the battery. Now, if it is the logic board which caused the defect on the battery, that is different, but if the battery is fried because you have it plugged in 99% of the time (or any other unusual use resulting in the battery to break) or just by normal use, sorry buddy, that's still on you.

rsocal
Jul 3, 2012, 08:15 AM
Any Big Company that has money is a target for this nonsense! It appears Italy has taken a lesson from America, any big company with lots of money's they will face crap such as this! Attorney's have made a business out of placing blame for whatever stupidly a person engages in, it's not there falt, it's whoever has money that blame will be placed on for lawsuit purpose's! In America it pays good money to be a stupid jackass mother ****er, you just need a smart jack ass attorney mother ****er to make sure we are not held accountable for our stupidity, it must be everybody else and the one with the money pays off the idiots. Apple has always or at least since I've been a customer for 10+yrs and their C.S and warranty's are better then any business out there! Italy is looking for something, Money's, Naaaaaaaa not us.......:cool::cool::apple::apple:

frabber
Jul 3, 2012, 08:16 AM
Yes, we got two year warranty in the EU and we love it. Lot's of macbooks got replaced because of this year extra warranty. No need for applecare, or "please explain to me how notes works" crap paid service.
You guys in US got screwed one year of warranty, is how I see it...

applesith
Jul 3, 2012, 08:25 AM
I think the law should be applied in the same way.

It isn't about support though, it is about the warranty protection. I don't have a problem with Apple charging for extended support. I bought Applecare for this very reason as a switcher from Windows.

I don't think companies like Apple OR Dell should be charging people for warranty protection for a product from 12-24 months. Any computer should be built to last more than 12 months. If there is a hardware failure after 16 months for example then that indicates a substandard piece of hardware and as such the manufacturers responsibility to deal with it.

They still have to build that warranty into the price regardless if its replacing/repairing or making better longer lasting products. it costs more either way.

----------

What do you mean it's not free? I'm expecting a product to be of high quality and last at least two years. I'm already paying for quality. If a device lasts me shorter than 2 years, it's not of high quality. Period.

Regardless of what you expect, warranties always cost more with anything you buy. Even if it's included, that extra cost is part of the price.

kevinof
Jul 3, 2012, 08:41 AM
Who law? The U.S? hate to tell you but U.S. law doesn't apply in Europe.

I had to replace my daughters battery in her iphone after about 19 months of use. It, and a broken mic were covered under the 2 year warranty.

Without AppleCare (I know, you had it but just for the argument you wouldn't): Sorry to tell you that batteries are not covered by the law. They are products that break under normal wear and tare. Like in a new car... .

albusseverus
Jul 3, 2012, 08:42 AM
Oh, and defending Apple in this regard is taking 'fanboy' to hitherto unreached levels, given it actively harms the consumer.

Currently AppleCare clearly shows 1 year warranty, in Gitmo Nation Spaghetti.

http://www.apple.com/it/support/products/mac.html

Here's a screenshot, in case it's fixed in future.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dSm6yodjBME/T_L0J2ClCBI/AAAAAAAAAEE/04fD8WuusWM/s1600/Screen+Shot+2012-07-03+at+11.21.58+PM.png

Konrad
Jul 3, 2012, 09:33 AM
Shortly after moving one of freshly purchased (in CA) 30 inch cinema displays from my house in LA to my house in Europe the thing was replaced about 4-5 times already well into the 3rd year since invoice, all under warranty, diligently shipped back and forward from the Apple warehouse in Ireland via FedEx until some guy in India gave a go ahead or a new unit. It would indicate for US purchased apple goods back then (2006) to automatically fall under the EU warranty policy. I also experienced a similar situation with HP, where despite the origin of the device, it was not only repaired, but also factory converted to 230VAC and delivered to my house by a courier all at no charge. Generally all is more expensive in Europe retail, except for bread, here without going into pages of comparisons... It is of course a certain compromise where in no doubt the winner today is Europe.

michiemme
Jul 3, 2012, 09:33 AM
I was referring to the German ONLINE store. All European Online stores are situated in Ireland...

Need I say more?

Nope.
One thing is where physically the store is, another thing is where legally works.
The Italian on line AppleStore has an Italian business registration number, necessary to easier sell inside the Country.
Otherwise, due the different VAT imposition between the EU partners, there's a very long procedure (buy without VAT, exporting process, local customs declaration, etc..) in charge of the buyer. And it becomes even worse if you are a professional customer....

I think that in any EU country is like this.

As a long term (Italian) Macuser, I can remark the weird behaviour of Apple, whatever they claim in their web site.
I had some issue with first Gen iBook, iPod, powerbook, iPhones and iPad bought through a reseller or directly (both online and shops). Sometimes I got issues in the second year and, after a weak resistance by the apple guys, they always accepted the warranty.

So the reason of this battle is simple. A part people like me and, I think, most of you who knows very well Apple and the tricks and its own rights, how Apple is managing the warranties in Italy is simply not legal.

that's it.

Sackvillenb
Jul 3, 2012, 09:40 AM
Requiring 2 year warranties is stupid. It just raises prices for everyone. Let people choose if they want to pay for that extra 2 years of warranty instead of forcing them.

Regardless of the debate about how it might raise prices, I think that intrinsically, most products should have MORE than a 1 year warranty. It's a matter of principle. If I make you something, and I say that I guarantee it will work for 1 year, but after that you are on your own, what does that say about the quality of my product? It does not reflect well on my quality standards. If I make you something and I guarantee it for 2 years (or even more), that says something quite different about the quality of my product. I think this is especially true of expensive devices like Macs. And, importantly, there are some companies (though not many) that DO offer 2 year warranties on electronics. A great example was when I worked at a general electronics retailer, we had these CHEAP laptops, I think they were MSI's, decent specs for the price though, and they had a 2 year warranty on them. So, if this company can make cheap laptop with DOUBLE the warranty of Apple, HP, Dell, and Sony, that (to me) tells me something about the product. And let's face it, it's all a money racket. These company have short warranties to save money, and so they can charge you for extended warranties. And that's balls. Especially on a computer that costs at least $1000 to $2000... Although I will say this, the price of applecare for an iMac is not terrible... considering... :)

Daveoc64
Jul 3, 2012, 09:53 AM
Sorry to tell you that batteries are not covered by the law. They are products that break under normal wear and tare. Like in a new car, you have breaks and oil wear and you don't have a warranty on those either.

As has been stated several times in the thread, the law doesn't give you a two year warranty.

It gives you an expectation of how long a product should last, with the opportunity to get a remedy for any problems from the retailer.

An ink cartridge doesn't have infinite capacity and might not last as long as the printer it came with, but if the ink cartridge becomes empty after printing a single page then it's clearly not good enough and you'd be entitled to get a replacement.

On the other hand, if you print several hundred pages with the cartridge in a month, then that would be reasonable.

The amount of time that you can expect the product to work for varies with both the type of product and how it's used.

vladi
Jul 3, 2012, 10:00 AM
Impressive thread!

How about this: No warranty at all! You buy your product and wait and see if it's going to work at all. It would be like lottery!! Awesome stuff, entertainment for everyone! Sometimes you will have to buy it multiple times and sometimes you will have to buy it just ONCE! Only once if you are lucky enough. Are you lucky?

This is how world would look if corporations would have their way instead of government. Sad thing is we have so many supporters of big corporatism and that is really scary. I am against government intrusion into peoples lives but I also believe in moral standards, so far I have yet to see a big corporation that has one and that is self initiated.

Apple sells their iPhones to carriers for approx around $500-600 and to end-consumer for around $700. In that price full device replacement is already calculated in. Now it all comes down to statistics and failure rate.

kmv2012
Jul 3, 2012, 10:11 AM
Without AppleCare (I know, you had it but just for the argument you wouldn't): Sorry to tell you that batteries are not covered by the law. They are products that break under normal wear and tare. Like in a new car, you have breaks and oil wear and you don't have a warranty on those either. So, it would be your responsibility indeed to replace the battery. Now, if it is the logic board which caused the defect on the battery, that is different, but if the battery is fried because you have it plugged in 99% of the time (or any other unusual use resulting in the battery to break) or just by normal use, sorry buddy, that's still on you.

Sorry buddy, but YOU are wrong. Under Danish consumer law companies have to replace a laptop battery if it fails within 2 years. This is loosely translated from Danish consumer law site:

"A portable computer is not portable if the battery doesn't work and it is to be expected to last at least to years without failing. If the battery is expected to last significantly shorter than 2 years it should be stated".

My Macbook Airs battery is supposed to run 1000 cycles before failing. My Mac is about 16 months old, app. 250 charge cycles, so if the battery fails it has to be covered. Period.

iStudentUK
Jul 3, 2012, 12:36 PM
I was referring to the German ONLINE store. All European Online stores are situated in Ireland...

Need I say more?

The German online Apple store will still sell at the same price as a German physical Apple store. My point still stands- employing people and selling to consumers is more expensive in th EU than the US due to better worker/consumer rights. So we pay more, I think it's worth it, but whatever people think about these rights Apple's prices aren't pure greed (part greed yes!).D

j4zb4
Jul 3, 2012, 01:03 PM
Silly German. :p It's called "You nailed it!"

Don't mix that up with "You nailed her!" which is the same as "You scewed her!" which is not the same as "You scewed it!" which is the opposite of "You nailed it!"

At least it wasnt a "grab into the toilet." :D

hahahah...

Btw that was what I meant... It has many iterations in different parts of the world... :p

Or maybe too much of internet forums and posters like "calidude" are "screwing up" my expressions big time... :p ;)

SilenceBe
Jul 3, 2012, 02:42 PM
Apple often fixes their products out of warranty.
In a lot of European countries there aren't any Apple stores or they are limited to just one. When you have problems you need to go the closest Apple Premium Reseller to fix your problems. They don't have any room to give you "free" fixes.

I had a friend a couple of years ago whose Macbook pro broke after one year, and he got an invoice of 900 euro's ( > 1000 dollars) to fix his broken motherboard. In the end it was cheaper for him to contact a lawyer that sent Apple (in Ireland) a letter to explain some basic consumer laws, that they surely already know by heart. I've seen this same story happening on numerous European or local macboards. It always involves some strong-arm tactics to make Apple comply with the law.

The funny thing is that there is a big markup in prices and to be honest I see the sales tax argument but in the end the difference can't be explained by the sales tax. Europeans are mostly getting shafted as a lot of companies see Europeans as rich by some kind of weird reasoning. But that isn't only Apple's doing. You need to see the price differences for a photoshop licenses (even digital) between the US and Europa, it is a lot more then even the highest sales tax in Europe.

To be honest Apple is wonderful in the first year, but damn if something breaks in the years that follow and you don't have apple"care".

Denzo
Jul 3, 2012, 03:45 PM
Sorry buddy, but YOU are wrong. Under Danish consumer law companies have to replace a laptop battery if it fails within 2 years. This is loosely translated from Danish consumer law site:

"A portable computer is not portable if the battery doesn't work and it is to be expected to last at least to years without failing. If the battery is expected to last significantly shorter than 2 years it should be stated".

My Macbook Airs battery is supposed to run 1000 cycles before failing. My Mac is about 16 months old, app. 250 charge cycles, so if the battery fails it has to be covered. Period.

I agree with this. Why? Because a car battery, if run down too much can damage - and is therefore prone to failure caused by the treatment of the user.

A laptop battery needs to be able to drain and charge and drain and charge, repeatedly - big difference.

alfistas
Jul 3, 2012, 03:56 PM
The German online Apple store will still sell at the same price as a German physical Apple store. My point still stands- employing people and selling to consumers is more expensive in th EU than the US due to better worker/consumer rights. So we pay more, I think it's worth it, but whatever people think about these rights Apple's prices aren't pure greed (part greed yes!).D

Perhaps you'd care to explain how you came to this conclusion?

CHINESE APPLE STORE
Retina MacBook Pro: $2,972.97 ex.vat 10% (high end model) -- at today's exchange rate from (www.xe.com)
The price difference is $173.97!!!!!!

And we all know that Apple products are designed in California and MANUFACTURED IN CHINA

Mad-B-One
Jul 3, 2012, 04:24 PM
Sorry buddy, but YOU are wrong. Under Danish consumer law companies have to replace a laptop battery if it fails within 2 years. This is loosely translated from Danish consumer law site:

"A portable computer is not portable if the battery doesn't work and it is to be expected to last at least to years without failing. If the battery is expected to last significantly shorter than 2 years it should be stated".

My Macbook Airs battery is supposed to run 1000 cycles before failing. My Mac is about 16 months old, app. 250 charge cycles, so if the battery fails it has to be covered. Period.

Law or ruling? Can you cite? Would be interresting.

----------

As has been stated several times in the thread, the law doesn't give you a two year warranty.

It gives you an expectation of how long a product should last, with the opportunity to get a remedy for any problems from the retailer.

An ink cartridge doesn't have infinite capacity and might not last as long as the printer it came with, but if the ink cartridge becomes empty after printing a single page then it's clearly not good enough and you'd be entitled to get a replacement.

On the other hand, if you print several hundred pages with the cartridge in a month, then that would be reasonable.

The amount of time that you can expect the product to work for varies with both the type of product and how it's used.

For the lack of better words in the English language: They give you a 2-year limited warranty. In German, they have 2 different words for it: "Garantie" - which is including more and "Gewaerleistung" which is the limited warranty. Either way, a warranty is nothing else than the promise that a product will work without failing for a certain amount of time and regulating how reimbursment is handled in case of defect. I specified if before, so you might have read my post on that as well... anyways, you are wrong if you state it's not a warranty. It is - just not the same as a full replacement warranty or extended warranty. It is pretty basic - hence limited.

----------

Perhaps you'd care to explain how you came to this conclusion?

CHINESE APPLE STORE
Retina MacBook Pro: $3,303.30 :eek: (high end model) -- at today's exchange rate from (www.xe.com)

The price difference is $504.30!!!!!!

And we all know that Apple products are designed in California and MANUFACTURED IN CHINA

And what is the VAT and other tax? Most countries have to include that in the price. USA is always showing prices without tax. Did you think about that?

alfistas
Jul 3, 2012, 04:57 PM
And what is the VAT and other tax? Most countries have to include that in the price. USA is always showing prices without tax. Did you think about that?

Yes have a look at my other posts

Mad-B-One
Jul 3, 2012, 05:10 PM
Yes have a look at my other posts

I did and I could not find it. Germany should have a 19% higher price, Sweden 25%, etc due to VAT. If it is even more, THEN you have an argument. You didn't specify China's pricing (either incl. VAT or not, how high the VAT is and if there is something like lux-tax as well like in Belgium). So, could you elaborate? Just mentioned European countries because that was the argument. China does not have the European guideline with 2 years limited warranty mandated. So, China does not really play into your argument.