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MacRumors
Jul 3, 2012, 02:55 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/03/slumping-sales-at-apple-touch-panel-partner-wintek-interpreted-as-sign-of-in-cell-adoption/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/07/iphone_4s_retina_display_magnify-150x189.jpg

Topeka Capital Markets analyst Brian White today issued a new research note highlighting a steep drop in sales at Wintek, Apple's long-time supply chain partner involved in production of display touch panels for iOS devices. According to the report, Wintek has experienced one of its steepest declines in shipments on record, but rather than suggesting that the decline is due to overall weakness in Apple products, White believes that it is evidence of Apple moving to in-cell touch sensing technology in its next-generation products.This morning, Wintek reported consolidated June sales of NT$5.22 billion, down 33.6% MoM and much worse than the average MoM June sales increase of 1% over the past seven years. Based on our records, this appears to be the biggest MoM sales drop for Wintek since the later part of 2008 and one of the most significant drops we have on record (back to 2005). We would not overreact to the weakness at Wintek as it relates to Apple because we believe Wintek may be losing market share in key next generation Apple products and therefore ramping down certain programs.White notes that Wintek was previously estimated as generating over 50% of total sales from Apple, but that its role in Apple's supply chain is slipping amid the transition to new technologies.

Rumors of a shift to in-cell technology, which would allow for thinner displays, surfaced in April (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/04/20/next-generation-iphone-to-use-thinner-in-cell-technology-for-multi-touch-display/) with indications that it would benefit larger display manufacturers like Sony, Sharp, and Toshiba. Smaller players like Wintek that have specialized in the current on-cell touch panel implementations would likely see their roles reduced, and White believes that that impact is already being felt at Wintek.

KGI Securities analyst Ming-Chi Kuo issued a report (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/04/23/in-cell-touch-technology-could-help-apple-reduce-next-iphones-thickness-by-15/) in late April estimating that a shift from on-cell technology to in-cell technology could allow Apple to shave up to 0.5 mm from the thickness of the next-generation iPhone. Altogether, Kuo expects that Apple will seek to embrace thinner displays, thinner back cases made of metal instead of glass, and thinner batteries made possible by spreading out within a larger form factor as a way reduce the thickness of the iPhone by nearly 1.5 mm.

Article Link: Slumping Sales at Apple Touch Panel Partner Wintek Interpreted as Sign of In-Cell Adoption (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/03/slumping-sales-at-apple-touch-panel-partner-wintek-interpreted-as-sign-of-in-cell-adoption/)



KdParker
Jul 3, 2012, 03:01 PM
nice...but not for Wintek

Mad Mac Maniac
Jul 3, 2012, 03:02 PM
*patiently waiting for iPhone 5*

G5isAlive
Jul 3, 2012, 03:04 PM
this is about 0.5 mm? I have been a big fan of thin, but this seems a bit extreme. I hope there are some other benefits other than 0.5 mm.

hundleton1
Jul 3, 2012, 03:05 PM
I dont see how a slump in sales now is a a result of a possible future adoption of a diferent technology ?

macse30
Jul 3, 2012, 03:10 PM
Cool, now I can gain 0.5mm in waist size and nobody will notice.

Peace
Jul 3, 2012, 03:11 PM
I dont see how a slump in sales now is a a result of a possible future adoption of a diferent technology ?

It's because Apple orders these parts long before they are assembled then sold.

ironpony
Jul 3, 2012, 03:12 PM
Apple may be using the ___ ________.

I'll retract this because some people might not like it??

orangebluedevil
Jul 3, 2012, 03:16 PM
this is about 0.5 mm? I have been a big fan of thin, but this seems a bit extreme. I hope there are some other benefits other than 0.5 mm.

The closer you can get the screen to the surface of the glass the better it looks and feels when interacting with it. You feel like you are actually touching the screen. There were simliar improvements from the iPhone 3GS to 4, and recently the MBP Retina.

rdlink
Jul 3, 2012, 03:18 PM
this is about 0.5 mm? I have been a big fan of thin, but this seems a bit extreme. I hope there are some other benefits other than 0.5 mm.

I agree. And the thought of a total change in the composition of the product (glass to metal, etc.) to achieve 1.5mm is somewhat disturbing to me.

Don't want to be alarmist, but one of the overarching themes at Apple during the current renessaince has been that Ives rules first, and the engineers had to adapt the technology to fit his style. Going from glass to metal seems like a nod to engineering over style, IMO.

east85
Jul 3, 2012, 03:19 PM
It's unnerving to see the smaller suppliers getting swept under by the bigger players, which are much more capable of developing and implementing cutting edge patents and the technology required to produce them. I suppose that is the nature of capitalism though, given the inherent need for efficient and competitive business structures. At least it will result in improvements on the consumer end (hopefully).

Stetrain
Jul 3, 2012, 03:20 PM
this is about 0.5 mm? I have been a big fan of thin, but this seems a bit extreme. I hope there are some other benefits other than 0.5 mm.

A 0.5mm thinner part doesn't necessarily mean that the iPhone will be 0.5mm thinner because of it. That could be 0.5mm of extra battery thickness.

spiderman0616
Jul 3, 2012, 03:25 PM
I agree. And the thought of a total change in the composition of the product (glass to metal, etc.) to achieve 1.5mm is somewhat disturbing to me.

Don't want to be alarmist, but one of the overarching themes at Apple during the current renessaince has been that Ives rules first, and the engineers had to adapt the technology to fit his style. Going from glass to metal seems like a nod to engineering over style, IMO.

Maybe we should reserve judgement on that until we actually SEE the next iPhone, which by the way, Steve Jobs himself worked on up until almost the day he died.

Also, everyone is bitching up a blue streak about a .6 mm difference in thickness on the new iPad, so I would assume .5 mm difference in thickness will be a big deal to people. Don't ask me why.

hobo.hopkins
Jul 3, 2012, 03:27 PM
this is about 0.5 mm? I have been a big fan of thin, but this seems a bit extreme. I hope there are some other benefits other than 0.5 mm.

A bit of reduction in several areas adds up. That can mean a thinner device or more room for a larger battery. The latter sounds best to me, but I'll take either.

chrmjenkins
Jul 3, 2012, 03:35 PM
The closer you can get the screen to the surface of the glass the better it looks and feels when interacting with it. You feel like you are actually touching the screen. There were simliar improvements from the iPhone 3GS to 4, and recently the MBP Retina.

Yes, MS made a big deal about this with their surface tablets, so I suspect they've gone in-cell too. Hopefully Apple does this along with IGZO. I don't know the technologies to be incompatible.

Also, gorilla glass 2 allows for thinner glass with same strength. So if apple were to combine these they could really thin the display down.

marcusj0015
Jul 3, 2012, 03:49 PM
This is sad.

----------

Apple may be using the ___ ________.

I'll retract this because some people might not like it??

Higgs Boson? wtf?

Oh noez! not science! Apple just uses it in every product that every article macrumors has ever written about.

----------

It's because Apple orders these parts long before they are assembled then sold.

I thought Apple assembled their stuff on demand? Job's biography said that...

chrmjenkins
Jul 3, 2012, 03:52 PM
I thought Apple assembled their stuff on demand? Job's biography said that...

They keep low inventory. They order parts in bulk ahead of time to strategically control their supply and keep prices low.

theBB
Jul 3, 2012, 03:58 PM
It's because Apple orders these parts long before they are assembled then sold.
It does not matter when Apple makes the payment. Until the parts are actually delivered, the supplier cannot record it as a sale due to accounting rules.

AustinIllini
Jul 3, 2012, 04:03 PM
It does not matter when Apple makes the payment. Until the parts are actually delivered, the supplier cannot record it as a sale due to accounting rules.

I read this. I believe it. It could be total BS but I buy it.

Peace
Jul 3, 2012, 04:07 PM
It does not matter when Apple makes the payment. Until the parts are actually delivered, the supplier cannot record it as a sale due to accounting rules.

That means this time last year Wintek had already delivered the panels to Hon Hoi then.

kiljoy616
Jul 3, 2012, 04:07 PM
Metal back, please say it is not so, I love glass its what makes the iPhone what it is, more metal not really as cool. :(

fertilized-egg
Jul 3, 2012, 04:08 PM
this is about 0.5 mm? I have been a big fan of thin, but this seems a bit extreme. I hope there are some other benefits other than 0.5 mm.

It'll make it look better too since the image will look closer to the surface of the glass.

But more importantly, less bezel is required for the LCD with this technology, which is a huge advantage for both iPhone with larger display and presumably the upcoming iPad mini as well.

It does not matter when Apple makes the payment. Until the parts are actually delivered, the supplier cannot record it as a sale due to accounting rules.

Yes and my guess is that it's probably a good indication that the iPhone 4S production is winding down. Yay for the new iPhone?

kiljoy616
Jul 3, 2012, 04:10 PM
I agree. And the thought of a total change in the composition of the product (glass to metal, etc.) to achieve 1.5mm is somewhat disturbing to me.

Don't want to be alarmist, but one of the overarching themes at Apple during the current renessaince has been that Ives rules first, and the engineers had to adapt the technology to fit his style. Going from glass to metal seems like a nod to engineering over style, IMO.

Same here, seems like some want an iPhone to go the way of Android look and feel, which would be a downfall for apple. Glass is what makes the iPhone different and estetically pleasing.

Navdakilla
Jul 3, 2012, 04:21 PM
*patiently waiting for iPhone 5*

yup!

Skika
Jul 3, 2012, 04:26 PM
Same here, seems like some want an iPhone to go the way of Android look and feel, which would be a downfall for apple. Glass is what makes the iPhone different and estetically pleasing.

I think NFC and glass don't work together. Not for pure technical reason but practical.

mdelvecchio
Jul 3, 2012, 04:32 PM
this is about 0.5 mm? I have been a big fan of thin, but this seems a bit extreme. I hope there are some other benefits other than 0.5 mm.

id think it would go w/o saying, but the thinner your other materials the <b>more battery</b> space you have.

theBB
Jul 3, 2012, 04:33 PM
Yes and my guess is that it's probably a good indication that the iPhone 4S production is winding down. Yay for the new iPhone?
Well, three possibilities that I can think of: 4S production winding down due to sales going down, 4S production going down due to the production switching to "5" or 4S production not changing much, but Apple starting to buy from a new supplier. I doubt anybody, but few well placed people in Apple knows for sure.

A few months ago somebody published a similar analysis, where they calculated a big drop in eInk Kindle sales by tracking the sales of eInk screens. The situation was much more simple in that case though, as apparently there was only one such supplier that Amazon could use. Apple probably has more than one IPS touch screen supplier.

miniroll32
Jul 3, 2012, 04:38 PM
1.5mm? ...

OH MY GODS! That's incredible!

Rocketman
Jul 3, 2012, 04:40 PM
The iDevices are thin enough already. Use the added large face size to maintain thickness and substantially increase battery capacity.

Then shift to Li-air ASAP to improve battery energy density 5-10x. At that point, faceless wearable units can be the size of a watch. Probably round.

Rocketman

Kaledatheone
Jul 3, 2012, 05:17 PM
I dont see how a slump in sales now is a a result of a possible future adoption of a diferent technology ?

Because, just like the markets that keep going up on good and bad news, Apple is considered to never be affected by bad news about its suppliers.

2IS
Jul 3, 2012, 05:29 PM
Not a fan of the thinner battery even if it is spread over a larger surface area. I still don't get why every smart phone manufacturer including Apple is so content with mediocre battery life.

shanson27
Jul 3, 2012, 05:46 PM
The new iPhone Air, can't wait :)

ixodes
Jul 3, 2012, 06:08 PM
Referring to an earlier article: Steve Jobs Planned Out 4 Years of New Products Before Death, Apple’s Future Will “Blow Your Mind”.

Perhaps this is it, the long awaited micro thin upgrade, the iPhone 4.5S


In the proven Apple tradition of saving something for later, next years ultra thin product will be the iPhone 5.0. Just think of the build up to that. Making people wait so as squeeze every last penny out of the current form factor, with the now historic front and rear glass, the shareholders will be over the top with happiness.

Thrilling :)


http://osxdaily.com/2011/10/11/steve-jobs-planned-4-years-of-new-apple-products/

thekev
Jul 3, 2012, 06:14 PM
Referring to an earlier article: Steve Jobs Planned Out 4 Years of New Products Before Death, Apple’s Future Will “Blow Your Mind”.


They would say things like this regardless of what actually happened. Apple admittedly likes to remain agile and capable of changing directions quickly. The idea that their former CEO left them with a master plan is just something to feed the fans. It doesn't require any bearing on reality.

Jeff3f
Jul 3, 2012, 06:40 PM
The iDevices are thin enough already. Use the added large face size to maintain thickness and substantially increase battery capacity.

I agree, I would like to see battery life improve so much that it essentially becomes a non-feature (like "normal" headphone jacks, touch screens, bundled rechargers, and so forth).

It's interesting, if the company keeps such secrets but relies on so many external partners, it becomes very difficult to really keep secrets after all...

now to google "in cell"...

bbbb4b
Jul 3, 2012, 07:02 PM
Well, three possibilities that I can think of: 4S production winding down due to sales going down, 4S production going down due to the production switching to "5" or 4S production not changing much, but Apple starting to buy from a new supplier. I doubt anybody, but few well placed people in Apple knows for sure.

Kind of thought (hoped) Apple was cranking out every last 4s that it possibly could in order to supply the clamoring China market, as well as all the other countries that were new to the iPhone this time around. I would have expected that increased marketshare to offset what might otherwise, be a more typical unit drawdown as a model transition begins to approach.
Wintek screens down by 1/3...? I don't know... Maybe Apple just really ramped up stock early on in the production, and were able to lighten up during this June month. Again; we arer actually talking about "Wintek", and not "Apple" specifically, but...

Toe
Jul 3, 2012, 07:36 PM
So, what's the latest buzz on when the 5 might be released?

I understand of course that it would just be guesses, but... surely some opinions are out there?

I'm not getting hints from http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#iPhone

----------

Kind of thought (hoped) Apple was cranking out every last 4s that it possibly could in order to supply the clamoring China market, as well as all the other countries that were new to the iPhone this time around. I would have expected that increased marketshare to offset what might otherwise, be a more typical unit drawdown as a model transition begins to approach.
Wintek screens down by 1/3...? I don't know... Maybe Apple just really ramped up stock early on in the production, and were able to lighten up during this June month. Again; we arer actually talking about "Wintek", and not "Apple" specifically, but...

Also, unless Apple completely changes their market strategy, they will be selling 4s's and 4's when the 5 comes out.

CShort
Jul 3, 2012, 07:36 PM
Hopefully they don't go for thinner and use the extra space for something useful! Like a better camera, NFC chip, battery, etc.

Toe
Jul 3, 2012, 07:38 PM
Hopefully they don't go for thinner...

I thought we were talking about Apple.

gatortpk
Jul 3, 2012, 08:06 PM
Metal back, please say it is not so, I love glass its what makes the iPhone what it is, more metal not really as cool. :(

Actually Glass and/or Metal are rare to use today for outer cases because of increased expense. Plastic has been popular for decades, and Apple has been unique for the past decade by using Metal (mostly Aluminum) and Glass in their devices.

So I think Metal can look quite nice, it's plastic you should be saying "please say it is not so".

samcraig
Jul 3, 2012, 08:07 PM
Same here, seems like some want an iPhone to go the way of Android look and feel, which would be a downfall for apple. Glass is what makes the iPhone different and estetically pleasing.

I think NFC and glass don't work together. Not for pure technical reason but practical.

My Skyrocket has gorilla glass and supports NFC.

So a) I guess the iPhone will need something else aside from glass to make it "different and aesthetically pleasing" :rolleyes:

Rocketman
Jul 3, 2012, 08:13 PM
Apple "wishes" technology was up to their own capacity to add features, miniaturize, deploy worldwide in every language, and generally be cool.

It's not.

Battery technology is in the stone age. Adding LTE increases energy usage to a bad degree. Network deployments most resemble what you would expect after a world war, not after a technological surge. Governments talk a game and do everything possible to step on your dic*.

Apple should increase the battery capacity to 2 days usage ASAP. Screw volume and mass (by a mere 20-30%).

Rocketman

gatortpk
Jul 3, 2012, 08:28 PM
So, what's the latest buzz on when the 5 might be released?

I understand of course that it would just be guesses, but... surely some opinions are out there?

I'm not getting hints from http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#iPhone[COLOR="#808080"]


From the Buyers Guide, I would guess somewhere around 333 days from the iPhone 4S release. I figure this because the new iPhone will probably be released slightly sooner to meet the end of Q3 2012, this would mean September instead of October. So this means we are around 60 days from the next release, that happens to be about 2 months from today. Tuesday used to be a popular release date, however a Friday release is perhaps more likely mid September? (September 14, 2012.)

theBB
Jul 3, 2012, 08:46 PM
My Skyrocket has gorilla glass and supports NFC.

Glass back and front?

Lindono
Jul 3, 2012, 08:53 PM
id think it would go w/o saying, but the thinner your other materials the <b>more battery</b> space you have.

Why do people not go back to fix their BBCode bloopers? One of my pet peeves.

2IS
Jul 3, 2012, 08:59 PM
Referring to an earlier article: Steve Jobs Planned Out 4 Years of New Products Before Death, Apple’s Future Will “Blow Your Mind”.

Perhaps this is it, the long awaited micro thin upgrade, the iPhone 4.5S


In the proven Apple tradition of saving something for later, next years ultra thin product will be the iPhone 5.0. Just think of the build up to that. Making people wait so as squeeze every last penny out of the current form factor, with the now historic front and rear glass, the shareholders will be over the top with happiness.

Thrilling :)


http://osxdaily.com/2011/10/11/steve-jobs-planned-4-years-of-new-apple-products/

I guess if he said it, it must be true. I'm not sure what's so mind blowing about this news personally.

ixodes
Jul 3, 2012, 11:06 PM
I'm not sure what's so mind blowing about this news personally.
I don't see anything mind blowing about it, not even close. And that's my point.

Only Jobs could create a feeding frenzy via his hype, his marketing magic, and ability to draw buyers in. The guy was the worlds best salesman. That was his true expertise.

MattInOz
Jul 3, 2012, 11:10 PM
this is about 0.5 mm? I have been a big fan of thin, but this seems a bit extreme. I hope there are some other benefits other than 0.5 mm.

Less material between backlight and user equals brighter display for the same power usage. Brighter screen means better screen reading in strong light, or lower power use in average light conditions.

slapple
Jul 4, 2012, 12:50 AM
According to the report, Wintek has experienced one of its steepest declines in shipments on record, but rather than suggesting that the decline is due to overall weakness in Apple products, White believes that it is evidence of Apple moving to in-cell touch sensing technology in its next-generation products.

Rumors of a shift to in-cell technology, which would allow for thinner displays, surfaced in April (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/04/20/next-generation-iphone-to-use-thinner-in-cell-technology-for-multi-touch-display/) with indications that it would benefit larger display manufacturers like Sony, Sharp, and Toshiba. Smaller players like Wintek that have specialized in the current on-cell touch panel implementations would likely see their roles reduced, and White believes that that impact is already being felt at Wintek.

KGI Securities analyst Ming-Chi Kuo issued a report (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/04/23/in-cell-touch-technology-could-help-apple-reduce-next-iphones-thickness-by-15/) in late April estimating that a shift from on-cell technology to in-cell technology could allow Apple to shave up to 0.5 mm from the thickness of the next-generation iPhone. Altogether, Kuo expects that Apple will seek to embrace thinner displays, thinner back cases made of metal instead of glass, and thinner batteries made possible by spreading out within a larger form factor as a way reduce the thickness of the iPhone by nearly 1.5 mm.

The poor sales at Wintek would have to indicate weak Apple product sales, right? Look at all the phrases from the article that I bolded - "rumors of a shift", "would likely", "could allow", "will seek to". All those phrases mean this in-cell technology is NOT in any current Apple products, so how could Wintek sales be affected by it right now?

I'm thinking AAPL stock might be a good short on the day before earnings.

Marx55
Jul 4, 2012, 02:08 AM
The addition of a lighter and smaller iPad is great, as is a lighter and smaller MacBook Air than the current 11-inch model.

Macman45
Jul 4, 2012, 02:12 AM
I agree. And the thought of a total change in the composition of the product (glass to metal, etc.) to achieve 1.5mm is somewhat disturbing to me.

Don't want to be alarmist, but one of the overarching themes at Apple during the current renessaince has been that Ives rules first, and the engineers had to adapt the technology to fit his style. Going from glass to metal seems like a nod to engineering over style, IMO.

I'll be more concerned if they start using plastic. :eek: That would be a deal breaker for me....won't happen though...

MagnusVonMagnum
Jul 4, 2012, 11:19 PM
this is about 0.5 mm? I have been a big fan of thin, but this seems a bit extreme. I hope there are some other benefits other than 0.5 mm.

The thin gaunt waistline of the Uber Jobs lives on. Apple won't be happy until the iPhone is only 1 atom thick and will then try to find a way to make it thinner yet by inventing sub-atomic iPhones. :D

samcraig
Jul 5, 2012, 07:23 AM
Glass back and front?

No - but who really cares? I don't consider that remotely a worthwhile differentiator.

theBB
Jul 5, 2012, 11:55 PM
No - but who really cares? I don't consider that remotely a worthwhile differentiator.
Dude, you were the one saying " my phone has gorilla glass, now iPhone needs something else to be "different and aesthetically pleasing". If aesthetics did not matter, why bring it up? If yours lack aesthetics, then iPhone does not need something else in the first place. If you are not part of a target market where aesthetics matter, why do you feel the need to troll a forum for such users?

samcraig
Jul 6, 2012, 06:19 AM
Dude, you were the one saying " my phone has gorilla glass, now iPhone needs something else to be "different and aesthetically pleasing". If aesthetics did not matter, why bring it up? If yours lack aesthetics, then iPhone does not need something else in the first place. If you are not part of a target market where aesthetics matter, why do you feel the need to troll a forum for such users?

I guess you missed the part where I was quoting ANOTHER poster. I was also being snarky to that poster as if glass on the front AND back is the selling point to an iPhone.

Just because I don't agree with you or the other poster doesn't make me a troll anymore than it would make you a "fanboy."

And I never said aesthetics didn't matter - way to draw a horribly wrong conclusion. I said having glass on both sides of the phone wasn't worthwhile.

Lastly - I own many Apple products including the iPhone 4 - that's my interest in this forum. That - and oh yeah - this isn't just a place to worship Apple. It's a discussion forum.

KdParker
Jul 6, 2012, 07:23 PM
Well...lets see this phone already Apple

slapple
Jul 26, 2012, 01:32 PM
The poor sales at Wintek would have to indicate weak Apple product sales, right? Look at all the phrases from the article that I bolded - "rumors of a shift", "would likely", "could allow", "will seek to". All those phrases mean this in-cell technology is NOT in any current Apple products, so how could Wintek sales be affected by it right now?

I'm thinking AAPL stock might be a good short on the day before earnings.

Good call. :D