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MacRumors
Jul 4, 2012, 09:44 AM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/04/apples-retail-push-into-china-still-limited-but-ramping-up/)


Back in February 2010, Apple's then-retail chief Ron Johnson noted during the company's annual shareholder meeting that it was planning to open up to 25 retail stores (http://www.macrumors.com/2010/02/25/apple-planning-to-open-25-retail-stores-in-china/) in China over the following two years. At the time, Apple operated only a single store in Beijing that had opened in time for the 2008 Summer Olympics held there.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/07/apple_store_hk_ifc_mall_night.jpg


Apple's IFC Mall retail store (http://www.apple.com/hk/en/retail/ifcmall/) in Hong Kong
Well more than two years later, Apple still has only six retail stores in its Greater China region, with five in China proper and one in Hong Kong. And as noted by Reuters (http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/07/04/us-apple-china-idINBRE86309T20120704), Apple has more stores in Pennsylvania (eight) than it does in Greater China.The shortage of retail stores and authorized re-sellers leaves ample room for unlicensed re-sellers to move in. Bad consumer experiences at these unauthorized shops are common and they run the risk of eventually eroding confidence in Apple's products, said David Wolf, chief executive of Beijing-based consultancy Wolf Group Asia.

If Apple doesn't expand its network of stores and authorized re-sellers, it "loses not only near-term sales, it also endangers the sustainability of its success in China," he said.The report does not pin down the reasons behind Apple's slower-than-planned pace of retail store expansion in China, only suggesting that the company may be running up against bureaucratic hurdles that have complicated its plans.

Apple may, however, be nearly ready for a substantial expansion of its retail footprint in China, as M.I.C. gadget just yesterday posted a summary (http://micgadget.com/24345/upcoming-china-apple-stores-hong-kong-shenzhen-chengdu-guangzhou-dalian/) of six more stores that are currently in the works. Most of the locations have been discussed at one time or another in recent months, but the new summary provides a consolidated picture of what Apple's Chinese customers can expect. The forthcoming locations include:

- Shenzhen: One of Foxconn's major hubs for iOS device production, Shenzhen will see a new Apple retail store going in at the Yitian Plaza shopping mall, according to M.I.C. gadget. The report includes photos of a boarded-up section of the mall where Apple is rumored to be building a two-level store, with an opening predicted for late this year or early next year.

- Chengdu: Apple appears set to open two retail stores in Chengdu, another of Foxconn's manufacturing hubs in China. The first may open as soon as September in the high-end Raffles Square district while the second is said to be a major store opening at the MixC shopping center. That location may open in December.

- Guangzhou: Relatively few details on this location are known, but according to the report Apple is preparing to open a store in the Grand City Plaza district. Major renovations for the area have, however, yet to take place.

- Dalian: As we previously covered (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/03/29/apples-largest-retail-store-yet-coming-to-dalian-china/), Apple is said to be planning its world's largest retail store for Dalian in northeastern China. No details on an opening are yet known, but previous information suggested that work was indeed underway on the store.

- Hong Kong: In February 2011, reports claimed (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/02/25/apple-making-plans-for-first-two-retail-stores-in-hong-kong/) that Apple would be opening two retail stores in Hong Kong: a 15,000 square foot location at the IFC Mall by the end of 2011 and a 20,000 square foot location at Hysan Place by the second or third quarter of 2012. The IFC Mall store did open in September 2011 (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/09/25/hong-kong-ifc-mall-apple-store-opens-to-large-crowds/), and M.I.C. gadget indicates that Apple should at least come close to meeting its target for the Hysan Place store with a late 2012 or early 2013 opening.

Article Link: Apple's Retail Push into China Still Limited, But Ramping Up (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/04/apples-retail-push-into-china-still-limited-but-ramping-up/)



Navdakilla
Jul 4, 2012, 09:49 AM
Once Apple takes over China, it's checkmate.

DisMyMac
Jul 4, 2012, 09:50 AM
People shouldn't "push" into other places... They should be invited and behave as good guests there.

jimsowden
Jul 4, 2012, 10:01 AM
What's wrong with Pennsylvania? It's huge.

shaunp
Jul 4, 2012, 10:02 AM
While I hope Apple do well in China, at the same time I don't want them to have a monopoly. Everyone needs competition.

thelookingglass
Jul 4, 2012, 10:08 AM
What's wrong with Pennsylvania? It's huge.

Nothing's wrong with Pennsylvania, just that the both the land mass and the population of Pennsylvania are a teeny tiny fraction of China's. China has 5 times more people than the US, yet one state in the US has more Apple stores than China.

These new stores are all sensible locations, except for Dalian. Shenzhen and Guangzhou are two of the richest cities in the country. Chengdu is clearly the financial hub of western China and is home to an increasing number of multinational corporations. Don't understand Dalian though. I would've thought Chongqing or Tianjin made more sense.

Galatian
Jul 4, 2012, 10:09 AM
Great...when is Berlin - the 3.5 Mio inhabitants counting capital of Germany - finally getting an Apple Store? Why do I have to deal with those idiots at Gravis? Seriously one of their repair guys wanted to tell me that just because my keyboard was broken the entire logic board had to be switched out. His reasoning was, after I wanted that to be explained, that when you hit a key it PHYSICALLY connects to the main board...Needless to say I just ordered a new keyboard (which included an entire upper case on the MacBook Pro by the way and costs you some 250€) and installed it myself. We need competent people fast!

DisMyMac
Jul 4, 2012, 10:10 AM
Once Apple takes over China, it's checkmate.

:rolleyes: That's so 20th century... There is no war going on, and there needn't be any.

If Apple is the new opium, then yes, there could be a revolution. But it will be a nationalistic movement to remove foreign influence, not about opening more Apple stores.

somethingelsefl
Jul 4, 2012, 10:27 AM
People shouldn't "push" into other places... They should be invited and behave as good guests there.

I agree. Apple can only succeed in China if it sees the country as an "opportunity," not some country to be conquered with iPhones. Culture matters for tech companies. Just ask Google in China and Automakers in Saudi Arabia.

reverie
Jul 4, 2012, 10:35 AM
Most likely the problem is local corruption.

charlieegan3
Jul 4, 2012, 10:47 AM
Thats one cool looking Apple Store.

Kwramm
Jul 4, 2012, 10:47 AM
It's already conquered - extremely high iPhone density here in Shanghai. Everyone and their dog has a 4 or 4S. The Steve Jobs bio was available within days after it came out, ripped off and sold by book vendors with push carts on the street. Fake apple products en masse - other brands? They're too weak to even be worthy of a rip-off. If people want to start a revolution in China, just take away their iPhones.

What really sucks here though is that you get the feeling China is totally unimportant to Apple despite all the worship it gets from the Chinese. Everything gets made here and shipped from here, but guess who gets the all the new Apple stuff last?
China is Apple's "clearance sales bin" (except they don't lower the prices). While people were buying new 11" and 13" MBAs everywhere else in the world they happily sold off the stock of old MBAs here in China. The new MBA came like 3 to 4 months late to Shanghai stores. While everyone was waiting for the new MBA's to show up in the Chinese Apple stores the new units were sitting in Shanghai's container harbour waiting to be shipped off to the rest of the world.

Same thing with the MBPr. Yeah it's on the Apple China wesite, but it'll take months till it makes it to the stores. But maybe I'll pick up the latest iPad they sell here. They call it iPad 2.

bharatgupta
Jul 4, 2012, 10:59 AM
The shortage of retail stores and authorized re-sellers leaves ample room for unlicensed re-sellers to move in. Bad consumer experiences at these unauthorized shops are common and they run the risk of eventually eroding confidence in Apple's products, said David Wolf, chief executive of Beijing-based consultancy Wolf Group Asia.

If Apple doesn't expand its network of stores and authorized re-sellers, it "loses not only near-term sales, it also endangers the sustainability of its success in China," he said.


thats exactly the case here in India where non apple stores are ruining buying experience and apple quality support just isnt there, dear apple address this and make your customers happy.

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It's already conquered - extremely high iPhone density here in Shanghai. Everyone and their dog has a 4 or 4S. The Steve Jobs bio was available within days after it came out, ripped off and sold by book vendors with push carts on the street. Fake apple products en masse - other brands? They're too weak to even be worthy of a rip-off. If people want to start a revolution in China, just take away their iPhones.

What really sucks here though is that you get the feeling China is totally unimportant to Apple despite all the worship it gets from the Chinese. Everything gets made here and shipped from here, but guess who gets the all the new Apple stuff last?
China is Apple's "clearance sales bin" (except they don't lower the prices). While people were buying new 11" and 13" MBAs everywhere else in the world they happily sold off the stock of old MBAs here in China. The new MBA came like 3 to 4 months late to Shanghai stores. While everyone was waiting for the new MBA's to show up in the Chinese Apple stores the new units were sitting in Shanghai's container harbour waiting to be shipped off to the rest of the world.

Same thing with the MBPr. Yeah it's on the Apple China wesite, but it'll take months till it makes it to the stores. But maybe I'll pick up the latest iPad they sell here. They call it iPad 2.

i agree with you, apple always treat themselves as premium product company in such countries but dont realize that they have a strong fan base here, same thing in india too

apolloa
Jul 4, 2012, 11:36 AM
Don't care what anyone says, the store in the picture on this article is the coolest Apple have ever made IMO.

Blakjack
Jul 4, 2012, 11:40 AM
That's one bad ars store in the picture? My new favorite

bandalay
Jul 4, 2012, 11:50 AM
Great...when is Berlin - the 3.5 Mio inhabitants counting capital of Germany - finally getting an Apple Store?

Dude - there's one nearly built, and second one in progress!

http://www.ifoapplestore.com/db/2012/06/26/second-berlin-store-possible-for-2013/

palmharbor
Jul 4, 2012, 11:53 AM
Its really of no consequence to the average mac user that apple is opening a store in a foreign country. This site has become more of a Public Relations site for Apple.

Bezetos
Jul 4, 2012, 11:57 AM
Still no Apple Store's in Germany, Poland...

iMeanIt
Jul 4, 2012, 01:14 PM
Its really of no consequence to the average mac user that apple is opening a store in a foreign country. This site has become more of a Public Relations site for Apple.

It was apparently of "enough consequence" to this "average" user.

I'm happy to learn about Apple's expansion into other countries - I guess I'm "above average".

Bubba Satori
Jul 4, 2012, 02:00 PM
Still no Apple Store's in Germany, Poland...

Anybody know why?

Bubba Satori
Jul 4, 2012, 02:12 PM
Once Apple takes over China, it's checkmate.

Thet were made for each other, so to speak.

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/raykwong/files/2011/10/steve-jobs_Ma0.jpg

writingdevil
Jul 4, 2012, 02:58 PM
People shouldn't "push" into other places... They should be invited and behave as good guests there.

Not "pushing into" situations may be 'good etiquette' as my old maid aunt used to tell us, though she was a bit socially inept, but this concept has absolutely nothing to do with national or international commerce. For an enterprise to enter a market (unless it's operating illegally) it must receive legal permissions to do so, giving them the right to operate there. The "invitation" comes from people buying products or using services.
I'm not sure who the post is preaching to, but China doesn't seem to have a problem having Apple invest in production facilities, employ tens of thousands of people with no income, pay taxes based on local laws, open other markets of production for tech firms following/trying to catch up with Apple and even 'contributing" 60 million dollars to a bankrupt company[COLOR="#808080"]

pw1388
Jul 4, 2012, 03:23 PM
Nothing's wrong with Pennsylvania, just that the both the land mass and the population of Pennsylvania are a teeny tiny fraction of China's. China has 5 times more people than the US, yet one state in the US has more Apple stores than China.

These new stores are all sensible locations, except for Dalian. Shenzhen and Guangzhou are two of the richest cities in the country. Chengdu is clearly the financial hub of western China and is home to an increasing number of multinational corporations. Don't understand Dalian though. I would've thought Chongqing or Tianjin made more sense.

Why you got to hate on Dalian for? Its one of the newer cites in China and a great vacation spot. I can totally see why apple would build a store there.

DarkKnightNine
Jul 4, 2012, 03:34 PM
I would like to know when we will see an Apple Store open in Yokohama (the second largest city in Japan by population) after Tokyo (which isn't technically a city, but a province). If all facts are considered, Yokohama is actually the largest city in Japan, yet we don't have an Apple Store here.

tann
Jul 4, 2012, 03:35 PM
Is 'China proper' what people officially call Mainland China?

China in general is a huge market, if Apple can do there what they've done in parts of the west then it'll be ridiculous!!!

coolspot18
Jul 4, 2012, 04:01 PM
These new stores are all sensible locations, except for Dalian. Shenzhen and Guangzhou are two of the richest cities in the country. C=

Dalian apparently has a growing IT industry. One of Intel's fabs are located there.

Still the city has 6 million people, more people than most US cities.


Is 'China proper' what people officially call Mainland China?

"Technically" two governments use the name China... People's Republic of China (Mainland Communist China) and Republic of China (Taiwan).

Both I think agree that China refers to both the Mainland and the Island of Taiwan. Who controls what is and who has the right to the name China is a messy affair due to the civil war in the 50s. But internationally including the United States have viewed the mainland communist government as the defacto rulers of "China" and the sole legitimate government of China. I personally would like to see all of China reunited - but only after Mainland China develops to the same levels as Hong Kong and Taiwan and develop the same sense of individual rights and freedoms.

macchelsea
Jul 4, 2012, 04:57 PM
There are rumors for a 3rd and 4th Apple Stores in Hong Kong. One that is more certain is at a shopping mall called Festive Walk in the Kowloon Tong district, and the store is now under intensive renovation work. It’s not as big as the one at the IFC Mall, but it’s easily one of the biggest in that mall. The 4th one is rumored to be located in the Tsimshatsui district at a building called “The Toy House” (but there is no toy shop in that building, just named apparently because it’s owned by toy manufacturer).

thet3chbr0th3r5
Jul 4, 2012, 07:03 PM
I've been to that store in the picture and I'm actually going to live in hong kong

PaulChowHK
Jul 4, 2012, 07:20 PM
The store in Hong Kong very beautiful but they kill all the small Apple Stores like my friends at New Vision. They going to be a Walmart like in USA trying to get all the business and forgetting all the small retailers who helping them develope the market. But we knowing all that when you getting so big the only way going is down and down they will going.

zzLZHzz
Jul 4, 2012, 07:57 PM
singapore need such a store too.

digitalhen
Jul 4, 2012, 08:16 PM
The store in Hong Kong very beautiful but they kill all the small Apple Stores like my friends at New Vision. They going to be a Walmart like in USA trying to get all the business and forgetting all the small retailers who helping them develope the market. But we knowing all that when you getting so big the only way going is down and down they will going.

The IFC store doesn't seem to be bothering them too much. They just [re-]opened a store in Tsing Yi, and it's always busy.

Whether people actually buy anything there is another question.

gloryunited
Jul 4, 2012, 08:24 PM
Thats one cool looking Apple Store.

Correct me if I'm wrong... I believe the Hong Kong IFC store is the most expensive in the world. (the rent at IFC mall is just crazy)

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There are rumors for a 3rd and 4th Apple Stores in Hong Kong. One that is more certain is at a shopping mall called Festive Walk in the Kowloon Tong district, and the store is now under intensive renovation work. It’s not as big as the one at the IFC Mall, but it’s easily one of the biggest in that mall. The 4th one is rumored to be located in the Tsimshatsui district at a building called “The Toy House” (but there is no toy shop in that building, just named apparently because it’s owned by toy manufacturer).

I remember hearing rumours that said the Tsim Sha Tsui one will be one big glass sphere! :eek:

digitalhen
Jul 4, 2012, 08:56 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong... I believe the Hong Kong IFC store is the most expensive in the world. (the rent at IFC mall is just crazy)

I think they're paying about 1/2 million USD a month (15000 sq ft x ~250 HKD per sq ft). They could also be paying zero, given the renovation they did, foot traffic it brings to the mall and surrounding facilities.

Apple makes about 466 USD (3613 HKD) per sq ft per month at it's Fifth Avenue store, and I'd imagine the IFC mall is the same, if not better, given the adulation for Apple here.

Figures are from 2011, but they'll have only gone up since then.

All in all, 7 million USD total revenue, on a 1/2 million USD outlay is pretty good, even after other costs like staff and the actual products.

Sources:

SCMP: http://www.presidiopenthouse.com/realestatefundmanager/hk_retail_ifc2011.jpeg
CNet: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-20096519-17/another-apple-win-retail-sales-per-square-foot/

MacDownunder
Jul 4, 2012, 09:46 PM
Having been to HK three times in last twelve months I'd have to say the Apple store is not near to central business or shopping districts. Whilst it is easy and cheap to commute in HK, I did not visit the store once during any of these visits.

I'd imagine to truly penetrate HK they need much more in way of "official" Apple stores. If you can have three official Nike (I am not talking copy shops) stores in same street literally shops apart that all seem to prosper so why not more Apple stores.

Can only imagine how busy one (or more) would be if they put one in Monkok, even central and then WanChai, or City Gate Tung Chung....the list goes on.

Unless you've been to a place like this it's hard to understand the population densities and the potential customer base that HK and indeed great China offer companies like Apple.

digitalhen
Jul 4, 2012, 09:57 PM
Not sure how you figure that. It's basically in Central. In a premium mall, 5 minutes walk from the Star Ferry, HK station, Central station (4 train lines). Central is absolutely packed with shops (and shoppers).

The offices on top (and one stop away at Kowloon) are where all the banks and finance are in HK. The mall and the store itself is rammed all weekend.

flameproof
Jul 4, 2012, 10:08 PM
I'd imagine to truly penetrate HK they need much more in way of "official" Apple stores.

There are official re-sellers. Fortress, Broadway, Sunning, Citicall and and and... must be 100+

http://www.apple.com/hk/en/reseller/index.php

And beside 'official' stores, there are many outlets that do sell Apple products.

Hence, IMHO a 2nd Apple Store in Hong Kong will bring in only minor additional revenue.

haruhiko
Jul 4, 2012, 10:14 PM
There are official re-sellers. Fortress, Broadway, Sunning, Citicall and and and... must be 100+

http://www.apple.com/hk/en/reseller/index.php

And beside 'official' stores, there are many outlets that do sell Apple products.

Hence, IMHO a 2nd Apple Store in Hong Kong will bring in only minor additional revenue.

except the fact that Broadway is still selling the iPhone 4S at inflated prices.

flameproof
Jul 4, 2012, 10:17 PM
I think they're paying about 1/2 million USD a month (15000 sq ft x ~250 HKD per sq ft). They could also be paying zero, given the renovation they did, foot traffic it brings to the mall and surrounding facilities.

I think they have to pay something, but probably get some discount. Renovation cost is usually to be paid by the occupier. But who knows.....

I am sure IKEA got a very good deal in Megabox, which would be otherwise dead.

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except the fact that Broadway is still selling the iPhone 4S at inflated prices.

Is it?

When the iPad3 came out Broadway had it for the original price - BUT - you had to buy an ugly cover and some other stuff for another 1000 or so. No thanks!

haruhiko
Jul 4, 2012, 10:18 PM
Having been to HK three times in last twelve months I'd have to say the Apple store is not near to central business or shopping districts. Whilst it is easy and cheap to commute in HK, I did not visit the store once during any of these visits.

I'd imagine to truly penetrate HK they need much more in way of "official" Apple stores. If you can have three official Nike (I am not talking copy shops) stores in same street literally shops apart that all seem to prosper so why not more Apple stores.

Can only imagine how busy one (or more) would be if they put one in Monkok, even central and then WanChai, or City Gate Tung Chung....the list goes on.

Unless you've been to a place like this it's hard to understand the population densities and the potential customer base that HK and indeed great China offer companies like Apple.

Mongkok, Wan Chai and Tung Chung...What a bad idea, these places are not where high net worth shoppers usually go to.

IFC is at the core part of the CBD in HK. Maybe you need to get your facts checked.

Zaqfalcon
Jul 4, 2012, 10:33 PM
Thats one cool looking Apple Store.

Don't care what anyone says, the store in the picture on this article is the coolest Apple have ever made IMO.

That's one bad ars store in the picture? My new favorite

Looks like Hatfield Galleria! http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/522573

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Is it possible to order online in China?

gloryunited
Jul 4, 2012, 10:51 PM
http://www.applegazette.com/wp-content/uploads/ifcmall2.jpg

That spiral glass staircase is gorgeous. :cool:

Ping Guo
Jul 4, 2012, 10:53 PM
Having been to HK three times in last twelve months I'd have to say the Apple store is not near to central business or shopping districts. Whilst it is easy and cheap to commute in HK, I did not visit the store once during any of these visits.

Can only imagine how busy one (or more) would be if they put one in Monkok, even central and then WanChai, or City Gate Tung Chung....the list goes on.


Not near to central business districts? It's in the IFC mall which is a major transport and shopping hub in HK... the metro stop is called Central. I believe it's suspended over Connaught Road which is the heart of the business district.

Mongkok is more of a discount clothing and electronics area, not really Apple prime real estate. Wanchai not sure, it's more small boutiques and such.

Orange Furball
Jul 4, 2012, 10:59 PM
Yeah... 8 stores in PA, yet I have to drive an hour and a half to mine. :banghead:

Konrad
Jul 4, 2012, 11:07 PM
Apple needs to ensure in all of it's stores public restrooms. Even in their US locations this is often a problem. It is simply unforgivable, given the size of their facilities, kids areas, length of transactions, in fact for any retailer not to provide a damn toilet and a sink. Who cares how grand and beautiful the place is when you have to threaten the personnel to either immediately open the back door or the five year old will urinate right now, right here in the iPad section.

flameproof
Jul 4, 2012, 11:14 PM
Apple needs to ensure in all of it's stores public restrooms. Even in their US locations this is often a problem. It is simply unforgivable, given the size of their facilities, kids areas, length of transactions, in fact for any retailer not to provide a damn toilet and a sink. Who cares how grand and beautiful the place is when you have to threaten the personnel to either immediately open the back door or the five year old will urinate right now, right here in the iPad section.

Lack of restrooms is really no problem in Hong Kong, there are easy workarounds for those in need....!

Kwramm
Jul 5, 2012, 12:08 AM
Can only imagine how busy one (or more) would be if they put one in Monkok, even central and then WanChai, or City Gate Tung Chung....the list goes on.

HK is so small, you can walk from central to admiralty easily. IFC mall is always packed and its a very upscale location. It's a flagship location for the very first store. It ain't "in front of your door", but not a single Apple store I know is particularly close to any regular middle class residential area. The first store they open in a city is always a showcase and in a premium location. Additional stores are usually other busy shopping areas. Same pattern in Munich, Beijing, Shanghai, London, ...

HK is lucky because it's small. Even from Mong Kok you're at the Apple store in no time - and from WanChai? it's like 10 mins max. You could even walk there in 20 - 25 mins.
Maybe not the perfect location but lightyears ahead of many other Apple store locations.

If Apple were after the big money then they just need to put down a store next to the mainland border crossing.

haruhiko
Jul 5, 2012, 01:07 AM
Lack of restrooms is really no problem in Hong Kong, there are easy workarounds for those in need....!

They are mainland Chinese.

flameproof
Jul 5, 2012, 01:11 AM
They are mainland Chinese.

I know, sorry for not making it clear. My source:

http://badcanto.wordpress.com/spot-the-mainlander/

Swordylove
Jul 5, 2012, 01:32 AM
Still no Apple Store's in Germany, Poland...

singapore need such a store too.

Since Germany and Singapore don't have Apple Stores themselves, I'd assume Kuala Lumpur would have to wait much longer for one. :D

rekhyt
Jul 5, 2012, 01:56 AM
Missed out the Apple Store in Shanghai.

http://www.apple.com.cn/retail/pudong/

Think I visited it once when I was there.

MuppetGate
Jul 5, 2012, 02:01 AM
Apple needs to ensure in all of it's stores public restrooms. Even in their US locations this is often a problem. It is simply unforgivable, given the size of their facilities, kids areas, length of transactions, in fact for any retailer not to provide a damn toilet and a sink. Who cares how grand and beautiful the place is when you have to threaten the personnel to either immediately open the back door or the five year old will urinate right now, right here in the iPad section.

Then the staff would have to clean the bathrooms and I wouldn't wish that job on anyone. Besides, most of the Apple stores are located in or near shopping centres so there's usually a bathroom close by.

Unless the Apple Stores start selling coffee and cakes there is no need for them to have restrooms.

jlnr
Jul 5, 2012, 02:51 AM
It's already conquered - extremely high iPhone density here in Shanghai.

So Shanghai is conquered, not necessarily all of China.

FrankHahn
Jul 5, 2012, 04:07 AM
Thet were made for each other, so to speak.

Image (http://blogs-images.forbes.com/raykwong/files/2011/10/steve-jobs_Ma0.jpg)

Steve Jobs head on the shoulders of Chairman Mao!

flameproof
Jul 5, 2012, 04:51 AM
Since Germany and Singapore don't have Apple Stores themselves....

Germany has not just Bratwurst places, I count 8 Apple stores:

http://www.apple.com/de/retail/

But true, SG has only resellers.

China has many resellers too that sell ORIGINAL Apple products.

Fattytail
Jul 5, 2012, 05:29 AM
Not near to central business districts? It's in the IFC mall which is a major transport and shopping hub in HK... the metro stop is called Central. I believe it's suspended over Connaught Road which is the heart of the business district.

Mongkok is more of a discount clothing and electronics area, not really Apple prime real estate. Wanchai not sure, it's more small boutiques and such.

Not suspended over Connaught Road, just a little side street within IFC. But directly adjacent to Connaught.

Clearly that other guy has never been to the IFC or the Apple store. Always, and I mean always, packed. Doesn't matter what day or what time of the day. Always teeming with people on both floors.

If the rumors are true, both Festive Walk and TST are good. TST especially. Incredible shopping volume there, much of it high end.

Bezetos
Jul 5, 2012, 05:54 AM
Still no Apple Store's in Germany, Poland...

Anybody know why?

Initially it was due to the fact that e.g. in Poland there wasn't a big market for high-end computers and luxury gadgets (one could say that Poles are more down to earth when it comes to buying electronics when compared with others (http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/2000-facebook-machine.jpg)). This was also the case in Germany, however things have changed and they are already building one there. There are also plans to build one in Poland, however at the moment there are only "official resellers" there.

EDIT: Apparently there are already open Apple Stores in Germany so I wasn't up to date with the situation there

Kwramm
Jul 5, 2012, 06:19 AM
So Shanghai is conquered, not necessarily all of China.

The rest would be conquered too if there were stores. Not long ago they closed down a bogus apple store which was so real not even some of the people working there had a clue it was fake. The only difference to a real store was that the staircase wasn't made out of glass (although they covered it now in the Pudong store). The rest of the experience was copied 1:1, products were real too. Why open up a fake Apple store? Because there's INSANE demand!

There's a huge demand on Apple stores and products here and it drives an entire black market of people buying Apple products en-masse in Beijing, Shanghai and HK to import them into the mainland and distribute them to areas where no official and no licensed stores exist.Add to that the fact that new products are always available much later in mainland China.

After the iPhone became available here it was sold out within 2 hours everywhere. And with the 4S you had to wait for 2 months after the China release to actually be able to walk to a store and buy one. It was sold out completely. Not even in HK you could get one. People were mass buying them, and people hired other people to buy phones for them after Apple put a limit on how many one could buy.
Since this didn't help they made it more difficult and limited the purchase to credit card payment only so people couldn't just hire a migrant worker, give them money and tell them "buy all the iPhones you can get". When that failed to work you had to make an appointment to actually buy one!

At the HK border crossing you'd see people carrying so many iPads, the Chinese customs themselves had to limit the amount people could import! (I guess Apple intervened here).

There's not much for apple to do other than open more stores and make some cheaper versions of some of their flagships - i guess that's why they still offer the 3GS here.

Yet you see people with iPhone 4 and 4S who don't look like they can't afford them. But they're the real thing. If you can't afford a car or apartment, an iPhone is the best status symbol you can get here. And people are prepared to save lots of money from their small salaries to buy them.

It's really an Apple craze here. Don't believe me? Go to China, put an iPhone on the middle of the table and watch people stare at it ;)

Puevlo
Jul 5, 2012, 07:23 AM
It's already conquered - extremely high iPhone density here in Shanghai. Everyone and their dog has a 4 or 4S.

I'm sorry but this does not make any sense. Why would they give their phone to their lunch?

Winni
Jul 5, 2012, 08:34 AM
Great...when is Berlin - the 3.5 Mio inhabitants counting capital of Germany - finally getting an Apple Store?

When will Taco Bells, Wendy's and Mr Wimpy invade Germany? When will we get our own local Disney Land? And where the heck is Doctor Pepper?

Really, who cares whether we will also get (another) one of those useless gadget temples or not? You can buy that stuff online and they will send it to your home. When you buy Apple Care, they will also fetch your broken gadget from your house, bring it to one of their repair shops and send it back to you within a couple of days. Sure, that is not as good as Dell's Pro Support who would fix it right at your home or office, but it's a start. At least Apple's support is more expensive than Dell's and they have those fruit logos on their products, that compensates everything, doesn't it?


We need competent people fast!

And you seriously expect to find them at an Apple RETAIL store? Or at ANY retail store, for that matter? You've got to be kidding.

G5isAlive
Jul 5, 2012, 09:37 AM
I wonder how anyone can be fooled by fake stores... but then I suppose not everyone has access to the internet. Or do they really care?

Kwramm
Jul 5, 2012, 10:08 AM
I wonder how anyone can be fooled by fake stores... but then I suppose not everyone has access to the internet. Or do they really care?

If you've never seen an original apple store before it's easy to be fooled by a nearly perfect copy that's decked out with original products, everyone wearing the blue apple t-shirts, same furniture, etc. If you have no reference, how to tell if it's real or not?

The even copied an Ikea store in another town. The only way you could tell was that they spelled the store name in Chinese a bit unusual and that instead of Swedish fare they served Chinese in the restaurant.

Or there was the case of the fake iPhones where only Apple itself could tell they were fake, after they disassembled them, because they were made partially with smuggled original parts.

Basically Chinese are very good at copying stuff ;)

Galatian
Jul 5, 2012, 11:39 AM
When will Taco Bells, Wendy's and Mr Wimpy invade Germany? When will we get our own local Disney Land? And where the heck is Doctor Pepper?

Really, who cares whether we will also get (another) one of those useless gadget temples or not? You can buy that stuff online and they will send it to your home. When you buy Apple Care, they will also fetch your broken gadget from your house, bring it to one of their repair shops and send it back to you within a couple of days. Sure, that is not as good as Dell's Pro Support who would fix it right at your home or office, but it's a start. At least Apple's support is more expensive than Dell's and they have those fruit logos on their products, that compensates everything, doesn't it?

And you seriously expect to find them at an Apple RETAIL store? Or at ANY retail store, for that matter? You've got to be kidding.

Ok you've got a point, but we do have Dr. Pepper...it is just ridiculously expensive :p

The real problem actually is that: Apple product have a pretty low repairability at least for the private person (see my anecdote on the broken keyboard). The way I see it: If I already have to pay big money on the repair parts I might as well have some specialist do the repair for me. And I do believe (and experienced from the Gravis Store in Bremen and Leipzig and the Apple store in Hamburg) that the employees in directly Apple owned shops seem to be better trained and have generally a better understanding of what they are taking about.

gloryunited
Jul 5, 2012, 12:51 PM
If the rumors are true, both Festive Walk and TST are good. TST especially. Incredible shopping volume there, much of it high end.

As a matter of fact, the shopping mall in Kowloon Tong is called Festival Walk.

And yeah I'd definitely want to see a flagship Apple Store in TST!
Imagine a sphere-shaped Apple store stand next to the dome-shaped Hong Kong Space Museum (https://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&biw=1440&bih=758&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=hk+space+museum&oq=hk+space+museum&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24l6.3980.4144.0.4298.3.3.0.0.0.0.104.227.2j1.3.0...0.0.aKCdkIPUajU)...lol

shaunp
Jul 5, 2012, 02:14 PM
While I hope Apple do well in China, at the same time I don't want them to have a monopoly. Everyone needs competition.

Why the down votes.

You do realise how bad it would be if Apple did have a monopoly don't you?

Ping Guo
Jul 5, 2012, 02:52 PM
I wonder how anyone can be fooled by fake stores... but then I suppose not everyone has access to the internet. Or do they really care?

Maybe you don't realize how good the Chinese are at counterfeiting, whether it's electronics, designer clothing, watches, food products, cognac and whisky, perfume, auto parts, drugs, medical supplies, or retail space. If they can fool retailers and experts across the world in different industries, they can fool some Chinese shoppers who've never seen the inside of a real Apple store.

coolspot18
Jul 5, 2012, 03:43 PM
I wonder how anyone can be fooled by fake stores... but then I suppose not everyone has access to the internet. Or do they really care?

The fake store sold genuine goods, so in the end, does it really matter? Basically an non-authorized reseller. Just like your local Costco...

http://reviews.costco.ca/2070-en_ca/10352069/apple-macbook-pro-mc721ll-a-english-only-intel-core-i7-15-4-in-hd-led-4-gb-500-gb-reviews/reviews.htm

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2010/11/05/costco-v-omega-is-about-much-more-than-cheap-watches/


Maybe you don't realize how good the Chinese are at counterfeiting

The goods at the store were not counterfeit according to news reports.

flameproof
Jul 5, 2012, 08:38 PM
Maybe you don't realize how good the Chinese are at counterfeiting

I never saw any counterfeit Apple product that runs iOS. They are obviously not that good with Apple products.

Asia8
Jul 5, 2012, 10:59 PM
I'd assume the slower opening of apple stores in China would have something to do with not being able to sell iPads. Now that it is over and the iPad goes on, they can open more stores. Would be a lot of empty table space without iPads.

Ping Guo
Jul 5, 2012, 11:18 PM
I never saw any counterfeit Apple product that runs iOS. They are obviously not that good with Apple products.

Copying the design of a store, even from photos, should be relatively easy except for the glass staircase. And the products inside are genuine, it's just the store that's fake. However, a friend of mine bought a fake iPhone last year (in Shanghai) running a fake iOS, from a small vendor. When I checked, the software seemed a bit off but it was a very convincing copy. And I've owned an iPhone for years.

SenorVvangIstMoi
Jul 6, 2012, 01:55 AM
SG don't have such gorgeous Apple stall but we're filled with countless retail stores :(

Mactrix
Jul 6, 2012, 02:43 AM
Apple shouldn't get involved in the affairs of China. After all, it's an insane dictatorship. Google was forced to bow in front of the oh-so-powerful party leaders. Will Apple be as corrupt as the party and will the company censor and watch it's users?

toke lahti
Jul 6, 2012, 06:27 AM
What's wrong with Pennsylvania? It's huge.
"Apple has more stores everywhere than in Scandinavia, where the Apple Store count is zero..."
I know we are just 5 countries and Pennsylvania is huge, but...
:rolleyes:

Asia8
Jul 6, 2012, 08:47 AM
Apple shouldn't get involved in the affairs of China. After all, it's an insane dictatorship. Google was forced to bow in front of the oh-so-powerful party leaders. Will Apple be as corrupt as the party and will the company censor and watch it's users?

You obviously know little about China. Google left because they failed to even make a dent against Baidu, the major search engine in China. It had nothing to do with the government and everything to do with their business related failures.

Google decided to claim their leaving of China was due to the government, as to not admit failure in one of the largest and fastest growing markets in the world.

All Google did other than close down their office in China though was change .com.cn to .com.hk. They're still serving China with no real difference. Their lies are just to keep people ignorant to the truth.

It was all about money, and Google doesn't understand China culture and what the Chinese people want in a search engine service. They failed, they left.

coolspot18
Jul 6, 2012, 11:21 AM
Apple shouldn't get involved in the affairs of China. After all, it's an insane dictatorship. Google was forced to bow in front of the oh-so-powerful party leaders.

You have quite the misperception of China. While China is not democratic, its leaders are not insane, and in fact are probably the best (responsible) leaders the country has had in 100+ years. True, the country can do with more human rights, more freedoms, more everything, but you have to also remember they are a country of 1.3 billion versus 5 million in Norway. A single city in China has more people than all of Norway. The largest metropolitan areas have 6x the population of Norway,

China can and has descended into chaos many times in its history so some of the heavy handed tactics are a necessity to maintain order. Western mores and expectations cannot be applied to China directly - the country just works on a totally different scale than what you and I are used to.

ryuok
Jul 7, 2012, 02:42 AM
The store in Hong Kong very beautiful but they kill all the small Apple Stores like my friends at New Vision. They going to be a Walmart like in USA trying to get all the business and forgetting all the small retailers who helping them develope the market. But we knowing all that when you getting so big the only way going is down and down they will going.

Your friends' business is killed not because of Apple, but because it's rubbish compared with Apple Store. Don't try to confuse people with the Walmart example. Apple didn't compete with your friends' store with low prices. What they did is that they focused on offering much better shopping experience including product display, demo, staff friendliness, return policy and repair services. Your friends' business focused on none of those. I'm not going to miss your friends' business at all.

----------

You have quite the misperception of China. While China is not democratic, its leaders are not insane, and in fact are probably the best (responsible) leaders the country has had in 100+ years. True, the country can do with more human rights, more freedoms, more everything, but you have to also remember they are a country of 1.3 billion versus 5 million in Norway. A single city in China has more people than all of Norway. The largest metropolitan areas have 6x the population of Norway,

China can and has descended into chaos many times in its history so some of the heavy handed tactics are a necessity to maintain order. Western mores and expectations cannot be applied to China directly - the country just works on a totally different scale than what you and I are used to.

Time to collect your 0.5 yuan from the Communist Party, or are you paid in dollar?

zzLZHzz
Jul 7, 2012, 02:43 AM
Your friends' business is killed not because of Apple, but because it's rubbish compared with Apple Store. Don't try to confuse people with the Walmart example. Apple didn't compete with your friends' store with low prices. What they did is that they focused on offering much better shopping experience including product display, demo, staff friendliness, return policy and repair services. Your friends' business focused on none of those. I'm not going to miss your friends' business at all.

you are right.
another good example is in Singapore. all the premium reseller service are crap. there is no reason for them to offer good service since there is nobody to compete with them on the service side. hence if apple open a store here, all those store has to close because they are crap. and i won't even visit them now. i just go to the online store afterall apple is price-control.

ryuok
Jul 7, 2012, 02:52 AM
You obviously know little about China. Google left because they failed to even make a dent against Baidu, the major search engine in China. It had nothing to do with the government and everything to do with their business related failures.

Google decided to claim their leaving of China was due to the government, as to not admit failure in one of the largest and fastest growing markets in the world.

All Google did other than close down their office in China though was change .com.cn to .com.hk. They're still serving China with no real difference. Their lies are just to keep people ignorant to the truth.

It was all about money, and Google doesn't understand China culture and what the Chinese people want in a search engine service. They failed, they left.

He may not know a lot about China, but he's right. China IS a dictatorship and please prove me wrong by pointing me to samples of press freedom, freedom of speech, independent judicial system, democratically elected leaders - essential elements of a non-dictatorship country.

And Google left because they couldn't compete? What other more bullcraps can you come up with in order to kiss the communist party's backside? Have you collected your 0.5 yuan payout today? I guess Facebook, Twitter and YouTube didn't do well because they couldn't compete with RenRen, Weibo and Youku then?

You are the kind of people who claims "China is now important" right after Apple released "China Specific" function for iOS. People like you are shameless, in the sense that you don't feel shame that people in China has to be given a different Internet that is separated from the rest of civilized world. Instead you feel proud that iOS is modified for China.

Asia8
Jul 8, 2012, 07:47 PM
He may not know a lot about China, but he's right. China IS a dictatorship and please prove me wrong by pointing me to samples of press freedom, freedom of speech, independent judicial system, democratically elected leaders - essential elements of a non-dictatorship country.

And Google left because they couldn't compete? What other more bullcraps can you come up with in order to kiss the communist party's backside? Have you collected your 0.5 yuan payout today? I guess Facebook, Twitter and YouTube didn't do well because they couldn't compete with RenRen, Weibo and Youku then?

You are the kind of people who claims "China is now important" right after Apple released "China Specific" function for iOS. People like you are shameless, in the sense that you don't feel shame that people in China has to be given a different Internet that is separated from the rest of civilized world. Instead you feel proud that iOS is modified for China.

China is different to most other countries in the world, systems that may work in other countries would not work in China. They can not be scaled to such levels. The Chinese government has been doing an amazing job in holding the country together and improving life regardless of what form the government takes.

Some things will need to change, but that's when the country is ready for it and when these changes wont cause more damage than good.

You put a lot of words in my mouth there. I kiss nobody's ____. Like I'd care about 0.5元 and I said nothing about Facebook, Twitter and Youtube. They're a completly different situation to Google.

It seems your arguments are almost all based on putting your own words in other peoples mouths and insulting them instead of building credible arguments.

holdincourt
Jul 9, 2012, 04:30 AM
The Hysan Place store certainly should be coming late this year or early 2013...given I walked by the new Hysan Place venue just yesterday!

Though I don't know why you would need BOTH Apple Stores to be on HK Island. Why not open one across the harbour in Kowloon? Come on, APPLE!:confused:

Ping Guo
Jul 9, 2012, 10:42 PM
You obviously know little about China. Google left because they failed to even make a dent against Baidu, the major search engine in China. It had nothing to do with the government and everything to do with their business related failures.

Google decided to claim their leaving of China was due to the government, as to not admit failure in one of the largest and fastest growing markets in the world.

All Google did other than close down their office in China though was change .com.cn to .com.hk. They're still serving China with no real difference. Their lies are just to keep people ignorant to the truth.

It was all about money, and Google doesn't understand China culture and what the Chinese people want in a search engine service. They failed, they left.

God what a steaming pile of manure. Be honest, you're a wu-mao lackey right?:rolleyes:

Systematic intellectual property theft is China's MO. Chinese government forces foreign companies to set up joint ventures with Chinese companies. After stealing everything that's not nailed down they send their foreign guests packing. In the case of internet companies, they simply block their websites once their local copies are up and running.

Xiaonei and Renren are blatant rip offs of Facebook. (Facebook blocked)

Baidu copies everything Google does - their new mobile OS is an Android doppelgänger. (Most of Google's services blocked, Gmail and search intermittent)

Weibo is a Twitter ripoff. (Twitter blocked)

The list is a mile long really, those are just some obvious examples.

TWGirl
Jul 10, 2012, 08:46 AM
There are rumors for a 3rd and 4th Apple Stores in Hong Kong. One that is more certain is at a shopping mall called Festive Walk in the Kowloon Tong district, and the store is now under intensive renovation work. It’s not as big as the one at the IFC Mall, but it’s easily one of the biggest in that mall. The 4th one is rumored to be located in the Tsimshatsui district at a building called “The Toy House” (but there is no toy shop in that building, just named apparently because it’s owned by toy manufacturer).

I don't know if it's wishful thinking, but I did notice that the Simply Life bakery restaurant in Festival Walk is moving to where KFC is, and I guess that Pizza Express next door will close soon, (hardly any customers these days). That would be a prime spot for an Apple store, top floor, large open window, clear roof.

Kwramm
Jul 10, 2012, 09:26 AM
China is different to most other countries in the world, systems that may work in other countries would not work in China.

Nobody ever gave it a serious try anyway. Absolute emperors, absolute Generalissimos, absolute party. China never really experienced anything else in terms of leadership. To flat out say "it won't work" is you taking your mouth quite full.

And please not the "China is different" card again. Either explain how, or admit that it's just a cheap phrase to justify the status quo and you're not willing to discuss. I heard this one way too often already here in China. It's just an easy way to dismiss another person's - especially an outsider's - opinion.

Unfortunately China is not a culture that can deal with criticism, even with constructive criticism with good intentions. People rather brush you aside with "5000 years of history", "Chinese culture/people being special", etc. Every regular Chinese knows quite well that the system is rotten (unsafe food, housing prices, corruption, weak social security, etc), but they'd never admit to a stranger that this is so. But if you look at Sina, Netease and other forums people will talk about those issues quite freely.

As regards to weibo integration into OS X. I think it's good. Yes, the Chinese internet is censored. On the other hand people have their friendship networks built there and even if they would despise those services, what alternative is there? I don't think any boycott on Apple's side would help anyone. So why not make it more convenient for Chinese users to work with the services they're already using? (Actually Sina weibo is quite cool. It's facebook and twitter rolled into one. Shame it's censored, but it's a decent product despite that).

Asia8
Jul 10, 2012, 10:52 AM
Nobody ever gave it a serious try anyway. Absolute emperors, absolute Generalissimos, absolute party. China never really experienced anything else in terms of leadership. To flat out say "it won't work" is you taking your mouth quite full.

And please not the "China is different" card again. Either explain how, or admit that it's just a cheap phrase to justify the status quo and you're not willing to discuss. I heard this one way too often already here in China. It's just an easy way to dismiss another person's - especially an outsider's - opinion.

Population is one of the biggest obstacles for the country. With a population of 1.3 billion (last time I checked), a better social security systems just isn't realistic. Instead the government is investing a lot of money into infrastructure and growth, the quality of life is getting better, more so for larger cities first but as time is progressing even the smaller villages are seeing the benefits.

Even if the Chinese people wanted democracy, trying to coordinate voting without corruption with a population of 1.3 billion would be almost impossible. Even with the small population of America I seem to here of the dead rising back to life just to make a vote, that's dedication I guess.

That aside there seems to be the matter of cultural values, most people here are much less worried about this as they're happy with the current government are seeing consistent good changes. Most have little interest in it and are more interested in their own personal lives.

At the moment the system is not perfect, but is working and working well, most people are happy with it, life is getting better all the time and China is progressing very well. Sure China doesn't have democracy or a government like what is being used in western countries, but what is in place here is working well so far. It's not like it was 10-20 years, things have changed and it's a whole new China. Problems exist, as they do everywhere, but they're being fixed gradually.

It's not perfect, but most people are happy with how it's working overall. It's most often foreign governments, foreign media and Chinese being backed, pat on the back, paid, etc who are bad mouthing China most. You think 50c is good? You're paid much better to complain about China and say how aweful it is.

Yes, China does have problems - give it time.
Yes, China isn't a democracy - is that what it really needs/wants?

I don't claim to have all the answers, but things could be much much worse. Things are improving all the time, so something must be right enough for the time being.

--

I love Chinese video/mp3 players, the only one's I've found that go above 100% sound volume. 900%+ I think. I used to be plagued by 100% on every setting and still having some music and video being almost unhearable. The overlay subtitles/lyrics that are always on top with a transparent background are great too. So I guess not everything is copied, as I can't find these features in any English software.

--

I know not everyone will agree, but these are my observations and what I've found from people I talk to here. Most really don't care about the government system as long as it's making things better, which it is.

coolspot18
Jul 10, 2012, 12:11 PM
He may not know a lot about China, but he's right. China IS a dictatorship and please prove me wrong by pointing me to samples of press freedom, freedom of speech, independent judicial system, democratically elected leaders - essential elements of a non-dictatorship country.

China is a socialist country with a communist government. To the billion people there, surviving is more important than the freedoms you highlight. Perhaps in 20 - 30 years when China is a wealthy country will Western style freedoms become important to the people there ... but one must remember China has 4x the population of the USA; and democracy in large countries like India have not proven too successful.


Nobody ever gave it a serious try anyway. Absolute emperors, absolute Generalissimos, absolute party. China never really experienced anything else in terms of leadership. To flat out say "it won't work" is you taking your mouth quite full.


If you come from an asian family, absolutely freedom is a foreign concept. Filial piety, respect for elders, etc overrides individual freedoms. You may argue that Japan / Korea are democracies, but it was through major US interventions (wars) that their systems were switched. But even in Japan, the ruling party has pretty much remained a single one for the past 50 years...

Kwramm
Jul 11, 2012, 12:49 AM
China is a socialist country with a communist government. To the billion people there, surviving is more important than the freedoms you highlight. Perhaps in 20 - 30 years when China is a wealthy country will Western style freedoms become important to the people there ... but one must remember China has 4x the population of the USA; and democracy in large countries like India have not proven too successful.

If you come from an asian family, absolutely freedom is a foreign concept. Filial piety, respect for elders, etc overrides individual freedoms. You may argue that Japan / Korea are democracies, but it was through major US interventions (wars) that their systems were switched. But even in Japan, the ruling party has pretty much remained a single one for the past 50 years...

Individualism has nothing to do with China's problems I'd say. Corruption, in-transparency, a biased law system happen all over the world, regardless of religion or culture. It has to do with responsibility and integrity.

But as far as transparency goes, the Chinese communist party is one of the world's most opaque ruling bodies. There's little accountability to the people because they can't do anything about it anyway. There's no accountability to the press either because it is all controlled by the party itself. The party is only accountable to itself, and which wrongdoer would put himself or his best buddy in prison?

On the local level China will stay corrupt, because its easy to bribe people with low salaries - this happens in India too, or even in Europe. But the greediness of the upper echelons in China dwarfs everything countries like India have to offer. It even dwarfs riches accumulated by Assad or Saddam Hussein. A Chinese study showed that 95% of Chinas billionaires are party princelings or high members. The 10 richest members of the communist party congress have 10 times more money than the 10 richest people in the US congress, yet the average income in China is much much lower.

You are right, in 20 to 30 years, this might indeed become an issue, because by then everyone might have a full plate on their tables and people have time to worry about different things. You can see this already with the people who can afford computers and internet access. They do discuss problems. So far there's no critical mass and the government is good at containing any discussion.

The question is, how long will this work? Even in countries like Japan or South Korea people want a voice. They want, at least the feeling, to be heard. Hong Kongers, Japanese, South Koreans, Taiwanese all have strong Confucian traditions, untouched by a Cultural Revolution, yet I doubt they will give up the freedoms they worked for just because they're not part of Confucian tradition. Let's face it, times change, people's attitudes change. If we'd do what we did 5000 years ago, we still might live in caves.

* note: there's no absolute freedom anywhere. You're always subject to someone's laws. The question is, to what degree can you influence them and to what degree you can challenge them.

ryuok
Jul 11, 2012, 02:36 AM
I'm not insulting you. You, sir, are insulting yourself. You are basically saying that the people in China does not need/deserve basic rights such as freedom of speech, freedom to criticize government. In your view, the Chinese communist has done a brilliant job because they managed to not let too many people die from starving.

People who sing praise to this kind of Chinese government propaganda are either too stupid to think or benefiting from such a brutal regime. I don't know what type you are, but you are clearly treating people in China as farm animals. They just need to be fed to they don't die. Anything else is asking too much.

Why is China different? Don't give me the lame population excuse again. A country that could send people to the space couldn't even tolerant a dissident? Dissidents are either tortured or being staged with "subside". Is this what it takes so people in China can have a bowl of rice? Mind you, it's not the communist government who created the new wealth. It's the people. The communist took most of it and turned them into personal assets.

China is different to most other countries in the world, systems that may work in other countries would not work in China. They can not be scaled to such levels. The Chinese government has been doing an amazing job in holding the country together and improving life regardless of what form the government takes.

Some things will need to change, but that's when the country is ready for it and when these changes wont cause more damage than good.

You put a lot of words in my mouth there. I kiss nobody's ____. Like I'd care about 0.5元 and I said nothing about Facebook, Twitter and Youtube. They're a completly different situation to Google.

It seems your arguments are almost all based on putting your own words in other peoples mouths and insulting them instead of building credible arguments.