PDA

View Full Version : Apple Deliberately Holding Back on Mobile Payment System




MacRumors
Jul 6, 2012, 05:22 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/06/apple-deliberately-holding-back-on-mobile-payment-system/)


The Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304830704577493261395358658.html) profiles Apple's "go-slow" approach to mobile payments. In June, Apple announced (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/11/apple-announces-ios-6-with-siri-improvements-facebook-integration-new-maps-app-passbook-for-fall-release/) the inclusion of a feature called Passbook to iOS 6. Passbook allows users to keep loyalty cards, tickets and coupons in one central app. Passbook, however, does not offer a full payment system which has been a rumored area (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/01/30/more-hints-that-apple-is-working-on-an-nfc-payment-system-on-the-next-iphone/) of research for Apple.

http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/05/iphone_visa_mobile_payment.jpg


The Wall Street Journal reveals that this is a very deliberate decision from Apple:Holding back in mobile payments was a deliberate strategy, the result of deep discussion last year. Some Apple engineers argued for a more-aggressive approach that would integrate payments more directly.

But Apple executives chose the go-slow approach for now. An Apple spokeswoman declined to comment on the decision-making process. Apple's head of world-wide marketing, Phil Schiller, in an interview last month, said that digital-wallet mobile-payment services are "all fighting over their piece of the pie, and we aren't doing that."According to the Wall Street Journal's sources, a small group within Apple was reported to have been investigating a new service that would embed payment methods into the iPhone or even build a new payment network. Discussions reportedly included Apple facilitating payments with merchants and even all the way to the possibility of Apple to begin acting as a bank. Apple also considered simpler wallet app possibilities or working with existing middlemen and taking a small cut of each transaction.

Meanwhile, the Apple iPhone team had indeed explored NFC communications options in the next iPhone. Various concerns included impact on battery life, security, vendor adoption and customer satisfaction.

Ultimately, Passbook is said to be the current compromise while Apple presumably waits to see how the mobile payment market matures.

Article Link: Apple Deliberately Holding Back on Mobile Payment System (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/06/apple-deliberately-holding-back-on-mobile-payment-system/)



MultiMediaWill
Jul 6, 2012, 05:23 PM
So much for being an innovative company...

dukebound85
Jul 6, 2012, 05:25 PM
they need to keep a list of things to entice others to buy the latest iphone

nfc coming in iphone 7

Mjmar
Jul 6, 2012, 05:25 PM
Hopefully this means that whatever they're working on will be really good. I'm all for getting rid of the wallet.

ArtOfWarfare
Jul 6, 2012, 05:26 PM
So much for being an innovative company...

Because doing what other companies do is totally innovative.

Anyways, I'm fine with this approach as I got an iPhone 4S. If Apple wants to wait a generation to include NFC and just include some new software in iOS 6, well, that's great for me :)


Hopefully this means that whatever they're working on will be really good. I'm all for getting rid of the wallet.

I wanted to refute this, but I honestly can't think of any way of doing so... therefore, I must concede you are correct and join with you in celebrating the decline of wallets.

Baklava
Jul 6, 2012, 05:26 PM
The future! :)

HishamAkhtar
Jul 6, 2012, 05:27 PM
iBank :apple:

Dr McKay
Jul 6, 2012, 05:27 PM
Seeing as Google are already pushing Mobile Payments, and Microsoft are going to start pushing them with Windows Phone 8, Apple may want to see how others do it, so they can do something that will set them apart.

pensoftware
Jul 6, 2012, 05:29 PM
I don't think they're not trying to be innovative... it's just that everyone's trying to do their own thing and to jump into such a balkanized market isn't in the best interest of Apple and their customers. Why try to start a NFC and have no stores try to adopt it because they already tried Google Wallet, or whatever?

jayducharme
Jul 6, 2012, 05:29 PM
I'm actually glad to hear this. I want the next iPhone but am not yet comfortable with NFC technology. I'm sure there'd be an option to turn it off, but even so I'm a bit relieved they're not plunging in until more details have been ironed out.

nagromme
Jul 6, 2012, 05:30 PM
John Gruber had some convincing podcast discussion of why he thinks Passbook may be a glimpse of a really big deal, a future plan that Apple is slowly and strategically building up:

http://muleradio.net/thetalkshow/6/

“Innovation” doesn’t automatically mean rushing ahead into the latest buzzword, succeed or fail. Apple’s style of innovation is more focused on doing a thing right than doing it rushed.

P.S. I have utterly no use for Passbook now. But if, SOME day, I can choose to no longer have a wallet, or even house keys (NFC!) I think I’ll appreciate that. Or even if I carry one “backup” ID card of some kind in case of hardware failure. Lugging my current stack of cards and cash and keys seems like something the future might not need....

TimUSCA
Jul 6, 2012, 05:33 PM
So much for being an innovative company...

Sometimes choosing to NOT do something is just as innovative as doing something. Apple isn't about shoving as many features into their phone as they can. They're about making a great experience - and that includes not adopting a technology that's barely used.

Jamie0003
Jul 6, 2012, 05:36 PM
John Gruber had some convincing podcast discussion of why he thinks Passbook may be a glimpse of a really big deal, a future plan that Apple is slowly and strategically building up:

http://muleradio.net/thetalkshow/6/

“Innovation” doesn’t automatically mean rushing ahead into the latest buzzword, succeed or fail. Apple’s style of innovation is more focused on doing a thing right than doing it rushed.

P.S. I have utterly no use for Passbook now. But if, SOME day, I can choose to no longer have a wallet, or even house keys (NFC!) I think I’ll appreciate that. Or even if I carry one “backup” ID card of some kind in case of hardware failure. Lugging my current stack of cards and cash and keys seems like something the future might not need....

This is the future. I hate having to carry change and notes and cards around with me. It's so unnecessary. Not to mention it is easily lost; the only problem is will ID cards become a part of this new system? Would suck if not.

Carlanga
Jul 6, 2012, 05:37 PM
NFC payments, only on the iPhone 5S :rolleyes:

entropys
Jul 6, 2012, 05:39 PM
I suspect that the passbook app can be very easily converted into a fully fledged NFC payment app just by the inclusion of any number of mastercard/visa/paypal/itunes-credit add ons, accompanied by a new iphone that contains an NFC chip. Such features won't be announced until the new phone is announced, of course. But Apple is building the critical mass for the passbook app now.

Gib
Jul 6, 2012, 05:44 PM
I suspect that the passbook app can be very easily converted into a fully fledged NFC payment app just by the inclusion of any number of mastercard/visa/paypal/itunes-credit add ons, accompanied by a new iphone that contains an NFC chip. Such features won't be announced until the new phone is announced, of course. But Apple is building the critical mass for the passbook app now.

Exactly. This whole article seems like marketing-speak, so they can say the new iPhone has NFC and everyone will seem so shocked...

WatchTheThrone
Jul 6, 2012, 05:45 PM
Cool guys never show up at the party first!! I guess we can call it fashionably late!!

Seriously though Apple is definitely cooking up something that's gonna be amazing. It won't be NFC but I bet they'll create something entirely new and get everyone from the big retail chains,restaurants,gas stations etc.... to go on board ala Siri with the car makers!!

Canaan
Jul 6, 2012, 05:50 PM
I'm hoping they do include NFC, because if Apple does it, it's sure to see a much quicker adoption rate and implementation here in the U.S. and other countries that don't yet have it widely used. If they don't make a push for it, it certainly could be a while before anything happens.

ixodes
Jul 6, 2012, 05:52 PM
It would not surprise me in the least, if Apple became involved as an integral part of the payment system. They've got legions of believers that trust them more than they trust other entities.

Apple would get a cut, just like the credit card companies do now, and it would result in one more massive income stream for them.

Perfect for Apple, nothing but money, money, money, money, money... well you get the idea.

I will admit, that at the present moment, it seems that there's no stopping them. The great majority of moves they make, turn to gold. I never expected this level of success from one single company. It's just incredible.

However, if this does come true, I will stop buying iPhones and immediately give the ones I have away. It was fun while it lasted, but I prefer choices and variety. Being hooked into an MPS by Apple is out of the question.

I'll keep using their computers as long as they suite me, but that's where I draw the line.

Having them act like a banker, financial institution, or however you want to categorize it, is of no interest to me. A large percentage of my transactions are cash. I have zero credit card balances, and I am not about to enroll in another system.

kevinfulton.ca
Jul 6, 2012, 05:52 PM
I'm actually glad to hear this. I want the next iPhone but am not yet comfortable with NFC technology. I'm sure there'd be an option to turn it off, but even so I'm a bit relieved they're not plunging in until more details have been ironed out.

^^^THIS^^^

While NFC is really cool and might be the way things are done in the future, people (even the most tech savvy) have too many questions regarding security, how it works etc. Some times, even when we have the tech, people are not always ready to jump in. This is a touchy subject for a lot of people and can't be forced on them because it effects their finances. It's a completely different way of doing things. I'm STILL getting used to using my phone for boarding pass barcodes or remembering to use my Starbucks app instead of buying gift cards (these are just habits). I think what they're doing is smart. Take small steps to get other payment methods (gift cards etc.) on the phone so that people get used to it and comfortable with the idea, then move on to credit and debit once it's the next logical step. They're training their customers for the future and I find that absolutely brilliant.

charlituna
Jul 6, 2012, 05:53 PM
So much for being an innovative company...

yeah cause every business out there has full support for NFC etc running in all countries and its all completely secure and reliable so why shouldn't Apple be pushing this tech.

----------

Seeing as Google are already pushing Mobile Payments, and Microsoft are going to start pushing them with Windows Phone 8, Apple may want to see how others do it, so they can do something that will set them apart.

More like they may want to see what issues come up so they can fix those problems before their users have them.

mevensen
Jul 6, 2012, 05:56 PM
Honestly, I don't see this as a great play. Just like the 7 inch tablet rumors, Apple is risking arriving late to the party and having to work to get penetration, instead of being a frontrunner. I know, they have a huge user base, but that is eroding with the maturing of Android and the coming out of WP8. If they're not careful, they could lose users. For me, the iPhone has driven me into the Apple ecosystem more than anything else. If they lose iPhone customers, they lose the halo effect of the iPhone as well.

I currently have a iPhone 4S, but have been looking sideways at some Android/WP8 handsets for a little while now, for various reasons. One of them has been NFC functionality. I had the Nexus S 4G, and Google Wallet was very convenient to use, especially when it was combined with some of the loyalty cards as well. The marketplace may be a little slow to adopt, but technology is sound and proven. The possibility of a larger screen and NFC for the iPhone 5 has kept me in the iOS camp for my phone so far. Slipping on these issues may push me towards the HTC EVO, the GS III, or the next Nexus.

bedifferent
Jul 6, 2012, 05:57 PM
This is HIGHLY disappointing. Japan and other nations have been using NFC systems for a long time; vending machines, pay stations/check-outs, airlines - all used through NFC tech. If Apple is simply using an app that requires a barcode to be scanned as currently implemented this would be disappointing (many companies do not own the proper scanners).

Again, holding back on tech already available on other devices in order to "work out" the system (i.e. "how much money can we make off this from the banks and stores?")

URFloorMatt
Jul 6, 2012, 06:03 PM
I'm confused by some of the comments here. The article says they are moving slowly into mobile payments. It says the team is working with NFC and considering issues about battery life, etc. It says nothing one way or the other about whether the next iPhone will include NFC.

I'd bet that it will, but this article doesn't really clue us in one way or the other. Maybe it makes it less likely, as there's some indication that Apple is skeptical of the technology.

cvaldes
Jul 6, 2012, 06:03 PM
I'm actually glad to hear this. I want the next iPhone but am not yet comfortable with NFC technology. I'm sure there'd be an option to turn it off, but even so I'm a bit relieved they're not plunging in until more details have been ironed out.
The problem isn't the technology, security or even Apple. The real issue is that most of the industrialized world has yet to agree on a standard for NFC payments.

The Japanese and South Koreans have been using NFC contactless payment enabled cellphones since about 2005. There are no horror stories coming out of southeast Asia, so presumably they have implemented security correctly.

RFID and NFC payment systems have been around for quite a while here in the United States, but they are pretty limited. Most of the major public transit systems in large metropolitan areas have NFC rider cards. Here in the SF Bay Area, it's the Clipper Card which covers eight transit agencies. Additionally, there is FasTrak which is a statewide toll payment system; here in the Bay Area it mostly covers bridge tolls, however there are some express lane tolls it covers, both here in the SF Bay Area as well as Southern California.

Many credit card terminals in retail stores are also enabled for NFC contactless payments. Chase issues both Visa and Mastercard credit cards with PayPass NFC technology. Although no one uses it though.

It would be wonderful if my next phone could be used as a transit pass, it would remove one card from my wallet. That's actually how the "osaifu keitai" (literally "wallet phone") became popular in Japan; it acted as a Mobile Suica card for JR East, the biggest rail operator in metropolitan Tokyo.

Any hesitation by Americans about such a system is unfamiliarity or ignorance, not a problem with the technology which has been heavily used in a consumer environment for many years.

This is HIGHLY disappointing. Japan and other nations have been using NFC systems for a long time; vending machines, pay stations/check-outs, airlines - all used through NFC tech. If Apple is simply using an app that requires a barcode to be scanned as currently implemented this would be disappointing (many companies do not own the proper scanners).

Again, holding back on tech already available on other devices in order to "work out" the system (i.e. "how much money can we make off this from the banks and stores?")
Again, the problem lies with the lack of multi-national standard. American Express has recently removed NFC chips from their Blue credit card. My old one had the chip, the one recently issued does not.

In Japan, basically NTT DoCoMo said, "here is our system, end of discussion." Most readers here aren't really familiar with NTT DoCoMo, but they are *the* dominant mobile operator and were pretty close to being a monopoly for many years.

I should be pointed out that using the iPhone has a scannable electronic pass is not new. Several US-based airlines offer mobile boarding passes (I used this on American Airlines a couple of weeks ago).

This is an example of when typical competition between corporations actually does not help the consumer. We are years behind the Japanese (who introduced the wallet-phone in 2005) because dozens of companies are working on their own systems to hopefully grab a larger piece of the pie. Meanwhile, there is virtually no adoption since no merchant wants to invest heavily in a losing horse.

Undoubtedly American Express has invested millions in their now-dead NFC technology as well as their previous smart-chip card technology (I had one of those USB Blue Readers -- it provided zero benefits to me).

Rocketman
Jul 6, 2012, 06:07 PM
Let me state the obvious. Any store, any vendor, anywhere, could accept payments via wifi (or Bluetooth). Router, PC, pad, phone as the receive point no problem. That would be far more ubuquitous now than NFC some day.

Heck it could also be done over 2.5G/3G/4G/LTE as well.

You can look for that.

Rocketman

What of . . . . the iPad7 is . . . .

A POS device
an educational pad
an in-car display (audio, GPS, diagnosis, etc)
a consumer pad for folks with good eyes, smaller hands, larger pockets, and purses.
an industrial sales, inventory and process tool with a holder reminescent of retail neckwear
Nearly iPod Touch edgeless format. Lower OD.

Hmmmmm. . . . . .

Gemütlichkeit
Jul 6, 2012, 06:20 PM
The tech isn't ready yet. There's not nearly enough outlets to warrant putting that in a product yet.

kdarling
Jul 6, 2012, 06:27 PM
It would not surprise me in the least, if Apple became involved as an integral part of the payment system. They've got legions of believers that trust them more than they trust other entities.

Apple would get a cut, just like the credit card companies do now, and it would result in one more massive income stream for them.

This seems the most likely scenario for holding back.

Apple has demonstrated time and again that they want a cut of anything their devices do.

Moreover, if history repeats itself, they'll also want everyone tied to the Apple payment system with no other choice.

mabhatter
Jul 6, 2012, 06:31 PM
So much for being an innovative company...

But why be one of the dozen also-rans? Mobile payment is important to mobile devices, but it's not Apple's expertise.

Besides, much like the online music stores were really "sink or swim" at the Big Five labels whim, the Visa/Master Card/ AmEx/Discover oligopoly is so powerful the tell Large Banks what to do. Right now it's all wasted effort until those guys give up their plans to add patent monopoly rent on TOP of their crazy merchant charges. Everybody in the industry in the USA is trying to lock up patent deals, then the first move is get bought by one of the Credit Card companies. Everybody is betting on "long shot" companies so they can collect $1 toll per transaction.

NFC isn't really Apple's fight.. With Microsoft in the game come fall that would be the time for Apple to move. Microsoft will burn a lot of cash uselessly.. Then banks should start throwing in backing. That is Apple's chance to pick the pony that will be the best long term effort.

jicon
Jul 6, 2012, 06:32 PM
I was a little curious why Tim Cook brought up the number of credit cards Apple has information on during the last WWDC. Maybe a bit of spin to prove to others that Apple has people very willing to spend money, provided they have an Apple device.

Easy pitch to keep repeating if you want to introduce your own payment device service going forward.

Chrisg2014
Jul 6, 2012, 06:37 PM
Apple as a Bank :| NO I will buy all your products but I'm not giving them my money to hold on for me. Unless you give me a GIANT DISCOUNT On your products. And I mean giant even then your not getting all my money!!!! I barely trust banks

----------

The tech isn't ready yet. There's not nearly enough outlets to warrant putting that in a product yet.

I see NFC every where... They look exactly the same as the normal credit card skipper. You just have to look.

hobo.hopkins
Jul 6, 2012, 06:37 PM
I'm ready whenever they are. I can't wait until I no longer have to carry a wallet; the obsolescence of the physical wallet has come.

Lancer
Jul 6, 2012, 06:39 PM
I have a NFC chip on my credit card (which also have a savings account attached) the only problem with that setup is you can only use it with the credit account. And most people don't want to pay for small items using credit. I hope NFC on a smart phone allows the user to choose how the pay for things.

I'm still hoping we get this an much more on the next iPhone at the end of the year, just not sure if I'll be able to afford it after my new iMac.

nuckinfutz
Jul 6, 2012, 06:46 PM
So much for being an innovative company...

Translated:

Apple didn't add what "I" think is important so I'm going to throw a tantrum.

s15119
Jul 6, 2012, 06:54 PM
This is a good move by Apple. This is something that will happen, but it needs to be done correctly.

100Teraflops
Jul 6, 2012, 06:54 PM
It would not surprise me in the least, if Apple became involved as an integral part of the payment system. They've got legions of believers that trust them more than they trust other entities.

Apple would get a cut, just like the credit card companies do now, and it would result in one more massive income stream for them.

Perfect for Apple, nothing but money, money, money, money, money... well you get the idea.

I will admit, that at the present moment, it seems that there's no stopping them. The great majority of moves they make, turn to gold. I never expected this level of success from one single company. It's just incredible.

However, if this does come true, I will stop buying iPhones and immediately give the ones I have away. It was fun while it lasted, but I prefer choices and variety. Being hooked into an MPS by Apple is out of the question.

I'll keep using their computers as long as they suite me, but that's where I draw the line.

Having them act like a banker, financial institution, or however you want to categorize it, is of no interest to me. A large percentage of my transactions are cash. I have zero credit card balances, and I am not about to enroll in another system.

Well said! Although, I'm not giving 'anything' away! ;)

KdParker
Jul 6, 2012, 07:01 PM
Image (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/06/apple-deliberately-holding-back-on-mobile-payment-system/)


The Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304830704577493261395358658.html) profiles Apple's "go-slow" approach to mobile payments. In June, Apple announced (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/11/apple-announces-ios-6-with-siri-improvements-facebook-integration-new-maps-app-passbook-for-fall-release/) the inclusion of a feature called Passbook to iOS 6. Passbook allows users to keep loyalty cards, tickets and coupons in one central app. Passbook, however, does not offer a full payment system which has been a rumored area (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/01/30/more-hints-that-apple-is-working-on-an-nfc-payment-system-on-the-next-iphone/) of research for Apple.

Image (http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/05/iphone_visa_mobile_payment.jpg)


The Wall Street Journal reveals that this is a very deliberate decision from Apple:According to the Wall Street Journal's sources, a small group within Apple was reported to have been investigating a new service that would embed payment methods into the iPhone or even build a new payment network. Discussions reportedly included Apple facilitating payments with merchants and even all the way to the possibility of Apple to begin acting as a bank. Apple also considered simpler wallet app possibilities or working with existing middlemen and taking a small cut of each transaction.

Meanwhile, the Apple iPhone team had indeed explored NFC communications options in the next iPhone. Various concerns included impact on battery life, security, vendor adoption and customer satisfaction.

Ultimately, Passbook is said to be the current compromise while Apple presumably waits to see how the mobile payment market matures.

Article Link: Apple Deliberately Holding Back on Mobile Payment System (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/06/apple-deliberately-holding-back-on-mobile-payment-system/)

Can't wait....

tech4all
Jul 6, 2012, 07:03 PM
Hopefully this means that whatever they're working on will be really good. I'm all for getting rid of the wallet.

Better hope your battery never goes out, or the network, or the power at the store to power the device you send info to. You'll still need a wallet for I.D./DL.

KdParker
Jul 6, 2012, 07:06 PM
Well said! Although, I'm not giving 'anything' away! ;)

Well...I am not sure that they would collect fees. But this is not going to be offered for free.

One Bad Duck
Jul 6, 2012, 07:09 PM
Music Player
Address Book
Phone
Calendar
Gaming Console
Movie Player
Email
Debit Card

What next keys? I know they're trying to get the new smart cars to start from phones. More NFC.

Despite what Rocketman says I reckon mobile payments will only ever go via NFC to the vendor and then a secure line to the bank. Imagine sending your "money" over the air like that. It would only be a matter of time before someone learned how to 'divert' it.

Also is Rocketman's first language English because he posts are always so weird.

khovland92
Jul 6, 2012, 07:10 PM
^^^THIS^^^

While NFC is really cool and might be the way things are done in the future, people (even the most tech savvy) have too many questions regarding security, how it works etc. Some times, even when we have the tech, people are not always ready to jump in. This is a touchy subject for a lot of people and can't be forced on them because it effects their finances. It's a completely different way of doing things. I'm STILL getting used to using my phone for boarding pass barcodes or remembering to use my Starbucks app instead of buying gift cards (these are just habits). I think what they're doing is smart. Take small steps to get other payment methods (gift cards etc.) on the phone so that people get used to it and comfortable with the idea, then move on to credit and debit once it's the next logical step. They're training their customers for the future and I find that absolutely brilliant.

This is such an awkwardly wrong statement. People don't really know how NFC works so they shouldn't do it? People are concerned about security with an Apple product? People need to be really comfortable before moving on to the next technology?

Going by this logic they should have put a physical keyboard on the iPhone. The apparent approach they are doing with payments is very not-Apple. Apple doesn't think about markets, Apple doesn't think about what other companies are doing. They think about creating a single awesome user experience and then they unleash the product on the market. With their simplistic interfaces packed with next-gen features, their products are a hit. They have the opportunity to spearhead mobile payments, and instead are passing it up for everyone else. Doesn't sound like Apple at all :confused::confused:

very strange.

Rennir
Jul 6, 2012, 07:11 PM
Apple's philosophy (for better or for worse) has always been go slow so this news isn't really surprising to me.

Kaibelf
Jul 6, 2012, 07:14 PM
So much for being an innovative company...

Being reckless is stupid, not innovative. You think any sensible tech company would suddenly try to become a bank?

AustinIllini
Jul 6, 2012, 07:18 PM
Translated:

Apple didn't add what "I" think is important so I'm going to throw a tantrum.

Especially since what most of the "I"'s on this forum think are important are optical drives, firewire, and 256 Gigs of RAM on a Mac Pro.

Do people seriously hate using credit cards or that paper stuff the machine spits out?

faroZ06
Jul 6, 2012, 07:20 PM
John Gruber had some convincing podcast discussion of why he thinks Passbook may be a glimpse of a really big deal, a future plan that Apple is slowly and strategically building up:

http://muleradio.net/thetalkshow/6/

“Innovation” doesn’t automatically mean rushing ahead into the latest buzzword, succeed or fail. Apple’s style of innovation is more focused on doing a thing right than doing it rushed.



It's not innovation; it's marketing strategy. Apple is still a very innovative company, but don't be fooled by their holding back. Once an iPhone with LTE comes out, it's going to be a huge deal even though LTE has been out for quite some time. I don't care about LTE anyway since the current 4G is already too fast for my 200MB data plan.

Rocketman
Jul 6, 2012, 07:26 PM
I have a NFC chip on my credit cardRight where it belongs.

slu
Jul 6, 2012, 07:33 PM
I'm ready whenever they are. I can't wait until I no longer have to carry a wallet; the obsolescence of the physical wallet has come.

I agree 100%. I would love to replace my wallet with my phone. And I don't really care who "standardizes" it. To me, it is a killer app that would get me to consider non-Apple hardware.

bbuild11
Jul 6, 2012, 07:34 PM
Check out this article.

http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/mobile-wireless/3359279/apples-iwallet-will-use-bluetooth-rather-than-nfc-says-analyst/

It basically says that Apple can bypass POS systems just like in their Apple Stores. Just walk in, get your items and checkout and pay all from your iPhone. Automated. Seamless. Simple. No hassle.

FYI. When I first tried it at an Apple Store, it almost felt like I was stealing.

As for unlocking my car, home, or whatever, all I can say is, "open the pod bay doors, Hal (Siri)."

cvaldes
Jul 6, 2012, 07:37 PM
John Gruber had some convincing podcast discussion of why he thinks Passbook may be a glimpse of a really big deal, a future plan that Apple is slowly and strategically building up:

...

P.S. I have utterly no use for Passbook now. But if, SOME day, I can choose to no longer have a wallet, or even house keys (NFC!) I think I’ll appreciate that. Or even if I carry one “backup” ID card of some kind in case of hardware failure. Lugging my current stack of cards and cash and keys seems like something the future might not need....
Passbook doesn't appear to be much different than the CardStar app that has been in the App Store for years.

A few of the cards I have registered on CardStar generate scannable barcodes (my city library, BevMo, REI). More interesting is that the app actually informs you when there are special deals at a particular merchant. It's convenient that I don't have to remember to grab a loyalty/club card out of my car's glove compartment when I walk into a particular store.

It's likely that the initial version of Passbook will have similar functionality but not more. There are quite a few startups who have tried mobile payments and have failed (Mobibucks, Bling Nation) so it's wise for Apple to wait for a more well adopted system to emerge.

I doubt if anyone thinks that an NFC-enabled phone will totally eliminate the wallet. After all, the Japanese and South Koreans have been using these phones since 2005 and there are still situations where you need cash or use a credit card at a merchant who doesn't support NFC-enabled cellphones. Without a doubt, there are plenty of dive bars in San Francisco that won't accept any form of payment other than cash.

----------

I have a NFC chip on my credit cardRight where it belongs.
No, not for the Japanese and South Koreans.

Apparently, you do not realize that the U.S. is terribly behind the times with much about cellular technology. They've had NFC-enabled cellphones since 2005. Tens of millions of Japanese use their cellphones for NFC contactless payments as well as transit systems every single day.

Again, most Americans are completely clueless as to how well a payment-enabled cellphone really is and the fact that there are modern countries who have been using these systems for years and would silently blink if they read the embarrassingly naive commentary here on MacRumors, AppleInsider, or dozens of other American-centric technology forums.

It would be great if I could use my iPhone as a Clipper Card (the SF Bay Area's contactless transit card which works with eight local transit agencies). It would remove one card from my wallet.

aristotle
Jul 6, 2012, 07:40 PM
I don't think most of you Americans appreciate how fragmented payment systems are. The iPhone is designed for the global marketplace and Apple has no interest in having different models for each country.

Even in North America, you have Visa, Mastercard, American Express, Chase Saphire etc.. and some of those are limited to the US only.

Japan does have sucia/pasmo but that is mostly limited to JR line trains and subways, vending machines near the subway lines and convenience stores like AMPM close to the subway lines. It is not a universal method of payment even in Japan and many vendors do not accept non-japanese credit or debit cards. When you visit Japan, you should get Japanese Yen bills before you leave on your trip.

Which provider is Apple supposed to partner with? What if their competitors claim anti-trust if they are not chosen?

Just use your existing credit or debit cards and CASH whether you are at home or abroad.

Apple did not implement NFC because it is a mess and will continue to be a problem.

Listen, I don't care how much some of you American would like the feature, you are not going to see it implemented in the iPhone because they now have a "world" phone that is sold throughout the world so they are not going to create a special version for Americans. Even if they considered it, they probably wanted to avoid the headaches right now.

@cvaldes: I have visted Japan and had first hand experience with their cash based society and PASMO. It is basically a transit card pass that you can use at some stores that sell junk food. It is not a replacement for credit cards or cash. Being integrated into a phone only provides some convenience but many Japanese simply have an iPhone case with a slot for a pasmo card.

Mackan
Jul 6, 2012, 07:40 PM
Apple is just careful with features, making sure they delay some of them to next iPhone revisions so that people have to upgrade and by new.

mevensen
Jul 6, 2012, 07:46 PM
Right where it belongs.

Actually, NFC dos not really belong on credit cards. That's where the security risk is the greatest, because credit cards are dumb tags, without any security controls. On a phone (referencing Google Wallet), you not only control when and for how long the NFC signal is broadcast, but the phone keeps a record of the transaction, the data is encrypted, and no physical evidence of account numbers is exposed during the transaction (as it could be by bringing out a card to wave over the sensor). This means that it is significantly harder to steal financial over NFC from a phone than it is from a card.

Dammit Cubs
Jul 6, 2012, 08:07 PM
People typically complain about how slow apple goes, but when you actually implement it, its by far the best method.

Not always true, but I'll take the copy and paste example. Even though it's slower than they want, they have to make a user friendly system that Grandma can understand. And more important, what happens, when you LOSE YOUR PHONE. If mobile payments takes off, your phone became a hot commodity.

Rot'nApple
Jul 6, 2012, 08:07 PM
iBank :apple:

Taken!

How about iDough?.... :rolleyes: :D
/
/
/

Rocketman
Jul 6, 2012, 08:11 PM
Actually, NFC dos not really belong on credit cards. That's where the security risk is the greatest, because credit cards are dumb tags, without any security controls. On a phone (referencing Google Wallet), you not only control when and for how long the NFC signal is broadcast, but the phone keeps a record of the transaction, the data is encrypted, and no physical evidence of account numbers is exposed during the transaction (as it could be by bringing out a card to wave over the sensor). This means that it is significantly harder to steal financial over NFC from a phone than it is from a card.Okay, it belongs on a one time use Fedex box with security by obscurity and time sensitivity.

cvaldes
Jul 6, 2012, 08:13 PM
Let me state the obvious. Any store, any vendor, anywhere, could accept payments via wifi (or Bluetooth). Router, PC, pad, phone as the receive point no problem. That would be far more ubuquitous now than NFC some day.

Heck it could also be done over 2.5G/3G/4G/LTE as well.
WiFi and Bluetooth are the wrong wireless technologies for NFC contactless payments. Neither was created for short-distance secure payments.

In fact, the longer range of WiFi and Bluetooth are security risks. NFC contactless payment systems are typically limited in range, like 1-6 inches. If you wave a Clipper Card (the SF Bay Area's NFC transit card) above a sensor, it will register if it's one or two inches away, but not if you do it six inches away.

Moreover, NFC contactless payment systems are designed so the client chip doesn't require power. Even if you had a wallet-phone with power, the system still needs to accommodate users that have unpowered chips (like on cards). That's how the wallet-phones became popular in Japan, because the phones would still work on the same system as unpowered transit cards. Plus, if your battery died, you'd still want some minimal transactional support, just like an NFC-chipped card.

mevensen lists some of the downfalls of having NFC chipped credit cards. NFC chipped cards/devices make more sense (from a security standpoint) when the payment credentials are not in a human legible form. Realistically, today's credit card users should be able to request a card that doesn't have the numbers imprinted on the front (for security purposes).

mentaluproar
Jul 6, 2012, 08:13 PM
What I foresee is a mobile payment system that ties into passbook. I walk into the grocery store, the phone automatically knows where I am and pills up the appropriate discount card, and would use the card I assign for grocery use. gas stations? different card used for fuel. I don't use multiple cards, but I know of some people who do.

pensoftware
Jul 6, 2012, 08:20 PM
I don't know why people keep comparing Japan and South Korea to the United States and other countries. You do realize that the United States has more than 20 times the land mass of Japan and South Korea combined, right? It's much harder to push and distribute new technologies across the country to replace old ones because of how widespread the country is. For example, look how slow the roll-out of 4G LTE is taking. Rolling 4G LTE across even California would take longer than rolling out 4G LTE across the whole country of South Korea.

Not only that, if Apple were to include it in the iPhone, they'd have to negotiate installing NFC-receiving devices in all the countries the iPhone is available or else people would be complaining about the new iPhone's NFC being useless in their country.

Sources:
U.S. Land Mass - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States
California Land Mass - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California
Japan Land Mass - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan
South Korea Land Mass - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea

Wordsmithmac
Jul 6, 2012, 08:36 PM
Apple's moving slowly b/c they are waiting for the patent office to grant them a broad non-specific patent for electronic payment using a non-specific chip in non-specific venues then they'll turn around claim to have invented NFC and sue everyone and try to get devices banned.

It's the apple way.

xVeinx
Jul 6, 2012, 08:41 PM
So much for being an innovative company...

Being innovative doesn't mean you corner every area of every market. There are many things, such as security, that can go wrong. Financial institutions and payment services companies require rigorous backup, security, and other infrastructure; many are also subject to increased federal scrutiny. There are ways to be innovative in this area, but the ability to establish and garner support for this system around the globe is far more involved then hashing out details with media companies. Apple is better off letting other companies spend the money on establishing the payment infrastructure (every store would have to have a reader for instance) and then coming along to clean up by integrating the feature into the iOS ecosystem--whether via buyout or otherwise.

Lancer
Jul 6, 2012, 09:01 PM
Music Player
Address Book
Phone
Calendar
Gaming Console
Movie Player
Email
Debit Card

What next keys? I know they're trying to get the new smart cars to start from phones. More NFC.

Don't forget, camera, video recorder, gps.

I'll wait for the iPhone 6 with site-to-site transport built in :)

But seriously the number if things a smart phone has to do, we're lucky it's lasts 24h between charges.

Rocketman
Jul 6, 2012, 09:09 PM
the longer range of WiFi and Bluetooth are security risks. NFC contactless payment systems are typically limited in range,Range and security are different layers. Should we insist folk hook to a 30 PIN CONNECTOR OR MICRO-USB connector to send a payment? Nope. (But it's okay to implement today and widespread technology for massive tomorrow commerce) Security over wireless sufficient for banking exists now over wifi and Bluetooth and xG cell.

But seriously the number if things a smart phone has to do, we're lucky it's lasts 24h between charges.

So why don't we have a BTO 72+ hour option?

I'll take 2-4mm thicker!! And proportionately more mass.

Rocketman

Glideslope
Jul 6, 2012, 09:10 PM
iBank :apple:

iCash :apple:

Sedrick
Jul 6, 2012, 09:34 PM
I can't get over this. Apple announces its not doing something everyone was expecting and everyone falls all over themselves proclaiming what a great decision it is. :confused:

mevensen
Jul 6, 2012, 09:55 PM
Okay, it belongs on a one time use Fedex box with security by obscurity and time sensitivity.

What does that even mean?

Is that supposed to somehow describe the Nexus S 4G?

The security has nothing to do with obscurity. The security is based on very good practices of user control, passcodes, tracking and encryption.

blow45
Jul 6, 2012, 10:09 PM
I think I might have an idea on how they plan to enter this market: 30% cut for every payment made for apple. It's only fair isn't it?

And it will complete the circle so that most everything we do or buy will have an apple cut, music, movies, apps 30%, books 30%, magazines 30%, newspapers 30%, let there remain nothing in the world where apple don't have a 30% cut on!!!!!!

30% cut on everything for the apple overlords residing on the apple spaceship FTW!!:cool::apple::)

iCash :apple:

iDodgeEUTaxesViaLuxembourg :) :)

The Tuck
Jul 6, 2012, 10:10 PM
I think that Apple will acquire the company Square and build on top of it just as they did with Siri. Square is already the established player in this market sector and has an Apple-esque aesthetic about themselves.

Tuck

coolbreeze
Jul 6, 2012, 10:13 PM
Ok Apple.

I'll keep happily using my Galaxy Nexus to buy stuff. It always causes a scene and lots of questions which I'm okay with. It's kinda fun to use and came in especially handy the other day when I forgot my wallet (true story).

It has a place for sure and sadly Apple is acting all "higher" than NFC payments now. I don't quite understand the arrogance here...

And for the people saying "BUT SECURITY!!1" Google Wallet requires a pin, just like my debit card. Simple, really. And yes it's faster and easier to use than a debit card. No more fumbling with a wallet (or purse, which would be worse). You guys are missing out.

But of course Apple will invent mobile NFC payments and the world will go ape ****. Just how it goes I guess. It feels good using a GNEX, the phone they tried to ban, with NFC mobile payments. Really good. (not happy with Apple right now)

Also, lol at "battery life" concerns. Really Apple?

acslater017
Jul 6, 2012, 10:23 PM
They're about making a great experience - and that includes not adopting a technology that's barely used.

*COUGHTHUNDERBOLT*

Ahem. I'm sure Apple has its legitimate reasons, but waiting for critical mass or standards adoption has never held them back. If Apple is convinced of something awesome, they push it and push it before it's commonly used.

blow45
Jul 6, 2012, 10:27 PM
I was being serious that they might have been expecting a % cut here and what with the collusion debacle they 've started thinking it over a bit. :) I don't disagree with you btw, but I think you are missing out on a key element with your statement, if apple are convinced of something awesome where they can make boatloads of money they push and push. Awesomeness without a high profit margin for apple isn't something that really concerns them.

mevensen
Jul 6, 2012, 10:37 PM
And more important, what happens, when you LOSE YOUR PHONE. If mobile payments takes off, your phone became a hot commodity.

Nothing happens when you lose your phone, except you wipe it and move on. NFC on phones are protected by at least one PIN (two if you have an overall passcode on your phone). Could it be hacked? Probably, but if you lose your wallet, your cards are available, too, with less protection.

coolbreeze
Jul 6, 2012, 10:51 PM
Nothing happens when you lose your phone, except you wipe it and move on. NFC on phones are protected by at least one PIN (two if you have an overall passcode on your phone). Could it be hacked? Probably, but if you lose your wallet, your cards are available, too, with less protection.

If you lose your wallet, the finder will go about his day using your cards as credit and signing John Doe while he drains your accounts. Most vendors do not pay any attention to the signature (if they even require it).

NFC on a phone is surprisingly more secure (as you stated, remote wipe, done).

blow45
Jul 6, 2012, 11:04 PM
If you lose your wallet, the finder will go about his day using your cards as credit and signing John Doe while he drains your accounts. Most vendors do not pay any attention to the signature (if they even require it).

NFC on a phone is surprisingly more secure (as you stated, remote wipe, done).

Not so. A lot of people have email and/or sms notifications for charges to their credit cards, the moment said John Doe goes for a transaction you are notified and you block it.

People can hack anything these days though, hacking into disabling remote wipe should be a piece of cake for any crook worth their salt, I am sure hacking tools like that will be readily available in the underworld. Of course the notification scenario works here too, which only comes to prove that credit cards are not any less protected than nfc, if the ultimate means of protection is someone informing you quickly of illegal activity.

They got a hell of a lot of issues to solve to make nfc really secure. As the feds say anything on a network, assume it isn't secure.

coolbreeze
Jul 6, 2012, 11:12 PM
Not so. A lot of people have email and/or sms notifications for charges to their credit cards, the moment said John Doe goes for a transaction you are notified and you block it.

People can hack anything these days though, hacking into disabling remote wipe should be a piece of cake for any crook worth their salt, I am sure hacking tools like that will be readily available in the underworld. Of course the notification scenario works here too, which only comes to prove that credit cards are not any less protected than nfc, if the ultimate means of protection is someone informing you quickly of illegal activity.

They got a hell of a lot of issues to solve to make nfc really secure. As the feds say anything on a network, assume it isn't secure.
I am one of those with an instant email once my card is charged more than .01 cent. I am also one of those people walking around with NFC enabled credit cards. And I am not getting one of those as seen on TV faraday cage wallets.

Risk is everywhere. It's the world we live in. I'm enjoying my Google Wallet world, personally. Livin' on the edge!

Also, NEAR Field Communication. If I see some shady dude 3" from my phone with some scanning device, it will be readily obvious he's trying to hack me. All I need to know. Lastly, I load up Google Wallet with a pre-determined amount (similar to a gift card). If it has $4.53 on it, then the hacker can enjoy a Big Mac on my behalf. Go nuts man.

LosAltosHills
Jul 6, 2012, 11:14 PM
i think reaching in my pocket for my debit card is easier than reaching in my pocket for my phone.

coolbreeze
Jul 6, 2012, 11:19 PM
i think reaching in my pocket for my debit card is easier than reaching in my pocket for my phone.

Yet when the iPhone has NFC, you and everyone will be shouting from the mountain top about how magical it is.

Amazing.

cvaldes
Jul 6, 2012, 11:27 PM
Range and security are different layers. Should we insist folk hook to a 30 PIN CONNECTOR OR MICRO-USB connector to send a payment? Nope. (But it's okay to implement today and widespread technology for massive tomorrow commerce) Security over wireless sufficient for banking exists now over wifi and Bluetooth and xG cell.
Here's the explanation for thick people:

If you allow for wireless transactions over longer distances, there are a great number of people who might be able to listen in on the transaction. Since there is nothing as "absolute security", there's always a chance that the encryption could be broken.

When the range is very short (like 1-2 inches) there is little chance that a third party can snoop in.

But again, these NFC POS terminals need to be designed to support unpowered devices. That's really the NFC spec. Using WiFi or Bluetooth really doesn't make any sense, it limits the number of possible transactions because the client chip needs power.

There are certain situations where longer distance wireless payment systems are used (e.g., FasTrak toll payment on vehicles in California), but these are isolated cases that aren't ideal for cellphones.

Note that swiping a credit card through a POS terminal is basically the old-school equivalent of plugging in a cable. We don't need to implement that since it's basically what we've done for twenty years.

----------

i think reaching in my pocket for my debit card is easier than reaching in my pocket for my phone.
But it's not.

Normally, a debit card is in a wallet. Which could also mean buried in handbag with two dozen other items. And it could be amongst a dozen other cards of the same size.

The more telling story is when you need to pull out a loyalty card or something like a Clipper Card (by your handle, I assume you are familiar with the SF Bay Area's transit card). You can't tag on with your bank's debit MasterCard at a Clipper Card terminal.

Just go to a train station platform. Look at the people waiting for the train. Count how many people have cellphones in their hands and how many have wallets (or cards) in their hands.

Yeah, I thought so.

I keep my wallet pretty slender, but I still have two credit cards, one debit card, and the aforementioned Clipper Card. Plus my California driver's license and an insurance card. That's six cards in one wallet and I know exactly where the debit card is, but it's still easier for me to pull a cellphone out of a pocket (if it isn't already in my hand).

Heck, do the same test at an airport terminal. Count how many wallets you see versus the number of cellphones. It is likely that 98% of travelers have their cellphones more handy than their wallets. Handy meaning "in their hand".

That's why the "osaifu keitai" (literally "wallet phone") because so popular after its introduction in Japan in 2005. It functioned on the JR East rail system as a Mobile Suica transit pass.

blow45
Jul 6, 2012, 11:29 PM
I am one of those with an instant email once my card is charged more than .01 cent. I am also one of those people walking around with NFC enabled credit cards. And I am not getting one of those as seen on TV faraday cage wallets.

Risk is everywhere. It's the world we live in. I'm enjoying my Google Wallet world, personally. Livin' on the edge!

Also, NEAR Field Communication. If I see some shady due 3" from my phone with some scanning device, it will be readily obvious he's trying to hack me. All I need to know. Lastly, I load up Google Wallet with a pre-determined amount (similar to a gift card). If it has $4.53 on it, then the hacker can enjoy a Big Mac on my behalf. Go nuts man.

sounds cool, I d love to give it a go too at some point, but right now I just have enough for that big mac on my cc and as sure as eff that guy with the scanner ain't getting my big mac off me. :D Would be interesting though to actually get an email, 10.45 pm, macdonalds $4.00 at crooked str., and to turn around and see that dude that was standing in line just after you enjoying his big mac across the street and giving you the finger. Technology offers new avenues for human interaction, and I am sure some good old *** whooping interaction would be warranted in this case.

ugahairydawgs
Jul 6, 2012, 11:49 PM
Personally, I'm not a fan at all of using NFC as a means for mobile payments. With as much consumer debt as people carry these days I would personally like to see us getting away from using methods that make it easier for people to pile up debt.

cdmoore74
Jul 6, 2012, 11:52 PM
Don't worry!! Don't worry!! Apple is just saving it for iPhone 5S.

coolbreeze
Jul 7, 2012, 12:07 AM
Personally, I'm not a fan at all of using NFC as a means for mobile payments. With as much consumer debt as people carry these days I would personally like to see us getting away from using methods that make it easier for people to pile up debt.


Prepaid balance (ala Google Wallet)
Linked to debit card

Neither of which are a line of credit.

3PO
Jul 7, 2012, 12:24 AM
This is HIGHLY disappointing. Japan and other nations have been using NFC systems for a long time; vending machines, pay stations/check-outs, airlines - all used through NFC tech. If Apple is simply using an app that requires a barcode to be scanned as currently implemented this would be disappointing (many companies do not own the proper scanners).

Again, holding back on tech already available on other devices in order to "work out" the system (i.e. "how much money can we make off this from the banks and stores?")

Apple is not in business of selling paper lists of features. Today NFC is next to useless.

Without a doubt iPhone 5 will fail because this :rolleyes:

matrix07
Jul 7, 2012, 12:33 AM
I can't get over this. Apple announces its not doing something everyone was expecting and everyone falls all over themselves proclaiming what a great decision it is. :confused:

Because everyone want company to jump into technology without a clue (like Google TV perhaps)?

3PO
Jul 7, 2012, 12:52 AM
Because everyone want company to jump into technology without a clue (like Google TV perhaps)?

Takes me back :D

winston1236
Jul 7, 2012, 01:09 AM
Don't worry!! Don't worry!! Apple is just saving it for iPhone 5S.

there will be no 5s or a 5, its almost guaranteed to be just iphone

blow45
Jul 7, 2012, 01:17 AM
Apple is not in business of selling paper lists of features. Today NFC is next to useless.

Without a doubt iPhone 5 will fail because this :rolleyes:

There's a little paper list feature known as siri that from what I am hearing is next to useless today. Surely it's not apple who threw that in the mix? Because apple are all about complete features, not paper list ones. (I hear the reply coming, they put it there so it learns and improves... interesting, cause I though they put it there cause they kept the same design and screen size for the iphone and they didn't have that much to sell the iphone for, unless you count a redesign antenna that doesn't actually drop calls or lose signal a feature.)

iphone 5 might fail with or without nfc if they do go ahead with the remote control long and tall design. Unless they were planting these leaks to gauge user reactions and/or lower the expectations and they are going ahead with another model.

nuckinfutz
Jul 7, 2012, 01:21 AM
NFC = solution looking for a problem.

From Credit/Debit Cards to Paypal to Square. There's simply not enough pain points to make NFC a consumer necessity.

shartypants
Jul 7, 2012, 01:21 AM
NFC is great, its used a lot in Japan (especially by the train systems), better than swiping a card or trying to scan a bar code off your screen. I can definitely see why Apple is taking their time on this, our infrastructure for NFC is not quite there yet, and its still very early in the game, better to let it shake out a bit.

3PO
Jul 7, 2012, 01:39 AM
There's a little paper list feature known as siri that from what I am hearing is next to useless today. Surely it's not apple who threw that in the mix? Because apple are all about complete features, not paper list ones. (I hear the reply coming, they put it there so it learns and improves... interesting, cause I though they put it there cause they kept the same design and screen size for the iphone and they didn't have that much to sell the iphone for, unless you count a redesign antenna that doesn't actually drop calls or lose signal a feature.)

iphone 5 might fail with or without nfc if they do go ahead with the remote control long and tall design. Unless they were planting these leaks to gauge user reactions and/or lower the expectations and they are going ahead with another model.

I urge you to note that people are still using that paper list feature called Siri more than they use NFC. That is a FACT. Apple could have added LTE last year too, would there be a difference? NO! because it requires a suffisticated wide network to be in place before you can use that technology.

----------

NFC is great, its used a lot in Japan (especially by the train systems), better than swiping a card or trying to scan a bar code off your screen. I can definitely see why Apple is taking their time on this, our infrastructure for NFC is not quite there yet, and its still very early in the game, better to let it shake out a bit.

It’s Felica that is used in Japan, not NFC. It’s RFID on steroids.

kevinfulton.ca
Jul 7, 2012, 01:39 AM
This is such an awkwardly wrong statement. People don't really know how NFC works so they shouldn't do it? People are concerned about security with an Apple product? People need to be really comfortable before moving on to the next technology?

Going by this logic they should have put a physical keyboard on the iPhone. The apparent approach they are doing with payments is very not-Apple. Apple doesn't think about markets, Apple doesn't think about what other companies are doing. They think about creating a single awesome user experience and then they unleash the product on the market. With their simplistic interfaces packed with next-gen features, their products are a hit. They have the opportunity to spearhead mobile payments, and instead are passing it up for everyone else. Doesn't sound like Apple at all :confused::confused:

very strange.

I never said people shouldn't use NFC. I said people would probably be hesitant using it for their MONEY until they learn a bit more about it and ease in to using it. This isn't a keyboard, display, content, or anything else. This is dealing with people's MONEY and I don't know about you, but when using a new technology that handles my money I want to learn more about it and how it works and if it's secure. I use Paypal all the time now, but at first I was very careful, learned, and asked questions FIRST before I became comfortable with it. I feel pretty confident in saying that I wasn't the one. Apple knows this. They know people's money is a touchy subject and they want to make sure that it's done right and that their clients are eased into using this service rather then pushing it on them only to have it potentially fail. Sure that's not a typical Apple approach, but I don't think this is a typical tech feature that you rush into. They didn't rush into the iPhone either. That was under wraps for years as they watched what everybody else was doing and made it better. Good things take time. Be patient because the results will be awesome :D

3PO
Jul 7, 2012, 01:44 AM
NFC = solution looking for a problem.

From Credit/Debit Cards to Paypal to Square. There's simply not enough pain points to make NFC a consumer necessity.

Don’t know how this NFC problem is going to be solved, but in general idea itself of not having to carry around that inflated wallet of mine anymore is kinda pleasing.

blow45
Jul 7, 2012, 02:03 AM
I urge you to note that people are still using that paper list feature called Siri more than they use NFC. That is a FACT. Apple could have added LTE last year too, would there be a difference? NO! because it requires a suffisticated wide network to be in place before you can use that technology.


You claimed that apple doesn't put in paper list features and you dished nfc for not being a completely functional idea, which is exactly what siri is, it's beta software for crying out loud, regardless of how many people use one or the other. But of course whatever apple doesn't offer it's not there because it's not complete and it's just a paper list feature. As soon as apple though have to come up with something on their phone that hasn't gained in screen size or been redesigned they can throw in beta software and list them as features. How convenient.

It's the same type of logic with the ipad mini: apple has done extensive tests and noted an optimal screen size that can't go any smaller, because that's what they are offering at the moment. As soon as others carve a market for smaller devices and apple realizes it's got to take some of that market too, then somehow an ipad mini is about to materialize and we even learn that they were contemplating it way back when they were claiming anything smaller than their size was an aberration. The optimal is whatever apple has, if apple doesn't offer something they are paper list features. No sd cards on ipads? Paper list feature. No fm radio on iphone like 95% of all phones do: paper list feature. No liquid draining keyboards that prevent damage to the motherboard like lenovo? Paperlist feature. No usb3 for some time? Plf. No blue ray? Plf. HDMI on a macbook pro? No longer a paper list feature, because now apple offer it. ;)

You know something man? It's hard to be taken seriously when you dismiss and smugly snob whatever the competition has with such claims. At some point you ll say it's a paper list feature that's not fully functional and someone like myself will answer back siri beta software to you, and you 'll be mad because you were hoisted with your own petard. It's much easier if you just give credit where credit is due when some other party introduces a new technology instead of apple fanboi snobbery.

mnemonix
Jul 7, 2012, 02:51 AM
Apple would get a cut, just like the credit card companies do now, and it would result in one more massive income stream for them.

The idea that anyone should get a cut is disgusting. Apple should make their money from selling technology. Banks should make their money from lending the money deposited with them by savers. This middle-man 'skimming' of money for nothing is endemic and represents everything that is wrong with business these days.

Why the hell should anyone profit from the fact that I spend my own money? And don't argue it costs money to provide the facilty to spend it: you'd be outraged if every time you spent cash in a shop you received a bill from your bank a week later.

olowott
Jul 7, 2012, 03:39 AM
NFC should be on the next phone

All we need to do is TOGGLE ON/OFF

Simples:rolleyes:

spacemanspifff
Jul 7, 2012, 03:49 AM
I may be wrong, but I don't see why you can't just use wifi or the cell network for this kind of payment and bypass NFC hardware all together.

The trouble with NFC is that someone has to provide the hardware and software to the shops (like the credit cards do now). This costs a lot and without an industry standard or potential customers, there is no incentive to invest.

We already pay online via the browser on our phones, so why not make a local version of this?

My guess is that Apple will somehow provide the shops with an online secure portal link to iPhones via an app (passbook?). They already do this in their own stores now, so they know how to do it.

Now they just need to roll it out and of course they would take a %fee to process the payment just like the credit card companies do at the moment.

princigalli
Jul 7, 2012, 05:06 AM
Hopefully we'll see the decline of credit cards and will be able to use something else. Having to use credit cards to rent a car looks just so primitive.

ixodes
Jul 7, 2012, 05:15 AM
The idea that anyone should get a cut is disgusting. Apple should make their money from selling technology. Banks should make their money from lending the money deposited with them by savers. This middle-man 'skimming' of money for nothing is endemic and represents everything that is wrong with business these days.

Why the hell should anyone profit from the fact that I spend my own money? And don't argue it costs money to provide the facilty to spend it: you'd be outraged if every time you spent cash in a shop you received a bill from your bank a week later.
Well said, we are thinking alike on this topic. I agree with every point you've made.

It's why I said that if Apple gets involved in mobile payments I'm immediately dumping my iPhones. I'll pull every iPhone from each family member & replace them with whatever they want. I'm not even going to wait until their up for replacement, or contract renewal, I'll swap them out swiftly.

The best way to vote is with ones money. I'm not about to buy (or use) any more iPhones with Apple being involved in a proprietary mobile payment system, primarily designed to further their profit and control.

I've already got a plethora of new Androids as well as arrangements to obtain one of the first Windows 8 phones just for the fun of it. Nothing beats the enjoyment of trying something new.

As one that's a huge advocate of mobile communications & computing, I enjoy having a variety of smartphones & laptops on different platforms.

CFreymarc
Jul 7, 2012, 05:20 AM
So much for being an innovative company...

Not innovation but security. If Apple passes on NFC they are not alone. Symbol and others have held back on the NFC bandwagon due to this. There are already NFC vampire apps for Andriod connecting to Bluetooth enabled NFC readers. Mod these readers enough and the reflective transmission of these NFC credit cards can be in meters. IMO, NFC needs a near total redesign on the network and transport layers for security. Sure Apple spotted this.

mazz0
Jul 7, 2012, 06:51 AM
I reckon passbook is a stepping stone to a wallet, and it could potentially overcome one of the security holes in NFC - the way you can steal from people's phones while they're stilly inside pockets or bags. If the payment is confirmed by a barcode on the screen, the appearance of which is triggered by an NFC signal, this can no longer happen.

----------

The idea that anyone should get a cut is disgusting. Apple should make their money from selling technology. Banks should make their money from lending the money deposited with them by savers. This middle-man 'skimming' of money for nothing is endemic and represents everything that is wrong with business these days.

Why the hell should anyone profit from the fact that I spend my own money? And don't argue it costs money to provide the facilty to spend it: you'd be outraged if every time you spent cash in a shop you received a bill from your bank a week later.

It's sort of understandable when the payment companies give the payment hardware free to the shops - after all they've got to pay for their R&D, production of the hardware, maintenance of the service, etc. How would the systems exist if they didn't get paid? This may be different in Apple's case though, as I doubt they'll be giving anything away for free.

One thing to consider, though, is how much does it cost the shop owners to handle huge volumes of cash, especially coins? Quite a lot, I'd imagine.

ajvizzgamer101
Jul 7, 2012, 07:00 AM
Apple announces NFC and iPay app for iPhone 5... your so excited about the wallet-less future, so you pick one up at the Apple store and set it up. You decide you want to try it out, so you go to the store (which is in walking distance so you don't need your wallet) to pick up a shopping cart worth of groceries. You make it to the check counter and the women says we don't take NFC check outs yet. <---- That is the "innovation" Apple is passing up. ;)


So Apple is probably going to make it like the Apple Store app you scan it and check out with out going to the counter.

----------

i think reaching in my pocket for my debit card is easier than reaching in my pocket for my phone.

Grab wallet > open wallet > grab card > figure out which way to swipe > swipe > enter code

Grab iphone > swipe > enter code?

I don't see your logic... even if the card was in a wallet you still have a lot of steps.

ugahairydawgs
Jul 7, 2012, 07:11 AM
Prepaid balance (ala Google Wallet)
Linked to debit card

Neither of which are a line of credit.

That helps for sure. But I'm guessing a pretty large chunk of folks will go the credit card route. They'll use some justification about earning rewards or something like that to mask that they want to purchase something they can't afford.

dannys1
Jul 7, 2012, 07:28 AM
Card payments must be the only system the US drags behind the UK - its rare but I guess being a small country has its benefits for moving financial technology forward. Whilst I'm sure New Yorkers would adopt change easily - would people in the centre band of the states who don't even own passports?

We've had "chip and pin" since 2004. No one uses signatures on cards anymore - you insert it in, enter your pin, pay for you items. This is the national standard. I was really surprised the US doesn't use this and still has the archaic magnetic strip and sign for method.

On top of that we've got some banks really pushing "contactless payment" (NFC basically) as its built into all new cards. The security is simple - you can't buy anything over £15, I don't think you can do that more than a handful times a day and only food places and supermarkets seem to have it enabled. Basically if someone was to mug you for your card, the biggest damage they'd be able to do is to order 3 cappuccinos in Starbucks and a Big Mac meal…

Ive noticed they are everywhere and I *think* Visa and Mastercard might be using the same system.

Someone also does a chip you can stick on the back of your smartphone and swipe for contactless payment. So you can turn your iPhone 3G into a NFC payment phone in the UK if you want - in a way! (wouldn't be surprised to find people opening phones and embedding the NFC chip from the sticker inside…

We've got a nationwide advert for these "stickers for the back of your phone" things now. Not sure what the uptake will be, but at least we're pushing forwards.

Rocketman
Jul 7, 2012, 07:35 AM
Here's the explanation for thick people:

When the range is very short (like 1-2 inches) there is little chance that a third party can snoop in.

But again, these NFC POS terminals need to be designed to support unpowered devices. That's really the NFC spec. There are wallets being sold as a NFC shield to prevent contact fraud. Without one of those wallets a thief can steal from your payment method by merely bringing a device very near you. That is not the case with cash, check, credit card, or even cell phone based payment beaming schemes.

Sometimes a dumb but remotely accessable card is just dumb and one now wonders who is thick.

Rocketman

johan.k
Jul 7, 2012, 07:51 AM
Can't wait Passbook. Wonder how it's work other than US.

KnightWRX
Jul 7, 2012, 09:14 AM
There are wallets being sold as a NFC shield to prevent contact fraud. Without one of those wallets a thief can steal from your payment method by merely bringing a device very near you. That is not the case with cash, check, credit card, or even cell phone based payment beaming schemes.

Sometimes a dumb but remotely accessable card is just dumb and one now wonders who is thick.

Rocketman

I think if that were truly the case, everyone with a Paypass card would have had their money stolen by now. :rolleyes:

Do you have any evidence that this is remotely possible and done on a wide enough scale ?

My Visa is Paypass enabled. Google Wallet uses Paypass. MasterCard pushes Paypass.

Seems to me, Paypass is the NFC standard for North America.

cdmoore74
Jul 7, 2012, 10:09 AM
there will be no 5s or a 5, its almost guaranteed to be just iphone

Your right, lets confuse customers even more. Next year it will be called the last years iPhone and the new model will become the New iPhone S or maybe the New New iPhone. Yup, iPhone 5 just sounds too silly for our advanced way of thinking.

KnightWRX
Jul 7, 2012, 10:27 AM
Your right, lets confuse customers even more.

You're confused when buying iPods, Macbooks, iMacs ? No ? Then just calling it iPhone won't confuse anyone either.

Or does it really need to become the iPhone One Z Magic III S...

Ronlap
Jul 7, 2012, 11:00 AM
So much for being an innovative company...

Apple sat back for how many years before they dominated the mobile phone market with iPhone?

Apple sat back for how many years before they dominated the tablet market with iPad?

The Zen philosophy is to patiently sit back and watch, rather than rushing in like Western companies often do.

nuckinfutz
Jul 7, 2012, 11:07 AM
Apple sat back for how many years before they dominated the mobile phone market with iPhone?

Apple sat back for how many years before they dominated the tablet market with iPad?

The Zen philosophy is to patiently sit back and watch, rather than rushing in like Western companies often do.

The proverbial father and son bull story lol

powers74
Jul 7, 2012, 11:13 AM
So much for being an innovative company...

Knowing when to say "no" is innovative.

KnightWRX
Jul 7, 2012, 11:26 AM
Knowing when to say "no" is innovative.

You can say it's sensible, it's wise, it's prudent, but "Knowing when to say no" is not innovative, unless your definition of innovative is very, very wrong.

nuckinfutz
Jul 7, 2012, 11:31 AM
You can say it's sensible, it's wise, it's prudent, but "Knowing when to say no" is not innovative, unless your definition of innovative is very, very wrong.

It's a slippery slope when you start trying to define some things as if that definition is a universal truth.

HelveticaRoman
Jul 7, 2012, 11:53 AM
iOverdraft.

DblHelix
Jul 7, 2012, 01:02 PM
^^^THIS^^^

While NFC is really cool and might be the way things are done in the future, people (even the most tech savvy) have too many questions regarding security, how it works etc. Some times, even when we have the tech, people are not always ready to jump in. This is a touchy subject for a lot of people and can't be forced on them because it effects their finances. It's a completely different way of doing things. I'm STILL getting used to using my phone for boarding pass barcodes or remembering to use my Starbucks app instead of buying gift cards (these are just habits). I think what they're doing is smart. Take small steps to get other payment methods (gift cards etc.) on the phone so that people get used to it and comfortable with the idea, then move on to credit and debit once it's the next logical step. They're training their customers for the future and I find that absolutely brilliant.

And this I do not get at all. It is actually more secure than a debit card because it has double redundancy on pins. You enter one on the phone to unlock the payment and you enter the actual debit pin on the card reader just like now.

kevinfulton.ca
Jul 7, 2012, 03:45 PM
And this I do not get at all. It is actually more secure than a debit card because it has double redundancy on pins. You enter one on the phone to unlock the payment and you enter the actual debit pin on the card reader just like now.

You and I know that, but not everybody. It's important that the none tech savvy, become comfortable with it rather it be forced on them. Then it will be more likely to be adopted by the majority. That's what I was getting at. Sorry if it didnt come across that way.

veempiire
Jul 7, 2012, 04:06 PM
is this a chance for us to use bitcoin??
:eek:

KnightWRX
Jul 7, 2012, 04:45 PM
It's a slippery slope when you start trying to define some things as if that definition is a universal truth.

Hum...

in·no·va·tive/ˈinəˌvātiv/
Adjective:
(of a product, idea, etc.) Featuring new methods; advanced and original.
(of a person) Introducing new ideas; original and creative in thinking: "an innovative thinker".

There's nothing "new" about "knowing when to say no". Again, it's wise, it's sensible, it's prudent. It's not Innovative, it's not new, it's not original.

mazz0
Jul 7, 2012, 08:09 PM
Hum...



There's nothing "new" about "knowing when to say no". Again, it's wise, it's sensible, it's prudent. It's not Innovative, it's not new, it's not original.

I'm not saying I agree with them, but I interpreted that post as implying that other companies have demonstrated a lack of ability to say no, making Apple's ability to do so (for which Jobs was famous) innovative. An exaggeration to make a point, I reckon.

KnightWRX
Jul 7, 2012, 08:24 PM
I'm not saying I agree with them, but I interpreted that post as implying that other companies have demonstrated a lack of ability to say no, making Apple's ability to do so (for which Jobs was famous) innovative. An exaggeration to make a point, I reckon.

I can name quite a few examples of companies saying "NO" to their customers. Harley-Davidson has been doing it for decades for one, something about the VROD being the only water cooled bike, no matter how much people want a Touring model with a water-cooled engine.

Apple is hardly "innovative" in that regard. Heck, they often say "NO" only to turn around and do the opposite 1 year later. "People don't read books", "Web apps is the way to write iPhone software", "No one wants to watch video on a small screen device", etc... etc... etc...

No, frankly, saying no is simply encouraging the status quo, immovability. That again may be good because sometimes, it's wise/sensible/prudent to wait, but it's not innovative, it's not a new concept, it's not original.

I often wonder why people want to use that damn word, "innovative", all the time like that. It's so abused around here.

kafantaris
Jul 7, 2012, 10:11 PM
If you're not there to get it started, you won't be there when it takes off -- even if you manage to put together the best stuff then. Indeed, it's this principle that's sustaining the iPhone and iPad now. Others have made better and cheaper devices, but Apple was there first and defined the niche.
So the wait-and-see approach is not consistent with Apple's own success, and it's not consistent with the way Apple did things under Steve Jobs.
But maybe Apple is more gun-shy from Siri than it's letting on.

bminata
Jul 8, 2012, 04:41 AM
And we'll continue to hold back until everyone agrees to 30% commision on every transaction that's RIGHTFULLY ours!

KnightWRX
Jul 8, 2012, 06:03 AM
If you're not there to get it started, you won't be there when it takes off -- even if you manage to put together the best stuff then. Indeed, it's this principle that's sustaining the iPhone and iPad now. Others have made better and cheaper devices, but Apple was there first and defined the niche.

Uh ? Apple was late to both the Smartphone and Tablet markets.

Sackvillenb
Jul 8, 2012, 07:46 AM
meh

doctor-don
Jul 8, 2012, 10:21 AM
Honestly, I don't see this as a great play. Just like the 7 inch tablet rumors, Apple is risking arriving late to the party and having to work to get penetration, instead of being a frontrunner. I know, they have a huge user base, but that is eroding with the maturing of Android and the coming out of WP8. If they're not careful, they could lose users. For me, the iPhone has driven me into the Apple ecosystem more than anything else. If they lose iPhone customers, they lose the halo effect of the iPhone as well.

I currently have a iPhone 4S, but have been looking sideways at some Android/WP8 handsets for a little while now, for various reasons. One of them has been NFC functionality. I had the Nexus S 4G, and Google Wallet was very convenient to use, especially when it was combined with some of the loyalty cards as well. The marketplace may be a little slow to adopt, but technology is sound and proven. The possibility of a larger screen and NFC for the iPhone 5 has kept me in the iOS camp for my phone so far. Slipping on these issues may push me towards the HTC EVO, the GS III, or the next Nexus.

There is no way people can use this today because it does not have the security it will require at either the POS or while being carried in one's pocket.

^^^THIS^^^

While NFC is really cool and might be the way things are done in the future, people (even the most tech savvy) have too many questions regarding security, how it works etc. Some times, even when we have the tech, people are not always ready to jump in. This is a touchy subject for a lot of people and can't be forced on them because it effects their finances. It's a completely different way of doing things. I'm STILL getting used to using my phone for boarding pass barcodes or remembering to use my Starbucks app instead of buying gift cards (these are just habits). I think what they're doing is smart. Take small steps to get other payment methods (gift cards etc.) on the phone so that people get used to it and comfortable with the idea, then move on to credit and debit once it's the next logical step. They're training their customers for the future and I find that absolutely brilliant.

WHEN this is put out there by Apple, we all know that it will just work - unlike what have already been tried. How many people have seen this technology where it can be used? I would appreciate ONE device that allows me to move about without carrying a wallet, credit cards, keys, etc.

Those bags used for disk drives and RAM cards are supposed to prevent interference from other electronic devices. However, the test involving enclosing a cellphone in the device and then calling that phone fails. Those videos showing how to make a Faraday cage wallet are just as dumb.

----------

And this I do not get at all. It is actually more secure than a debit card because it has double redundancy on pins. You enter one on the phone to unlock the payment and you enter the actual debit pin on the card reader just like now.

Say WHAT?

double redundancy on pins?

Wouldn't that reduce the functionality?

Psilocin
Jul 8, 2012, 10:31 AM
There is no way people can use this today because it does not have the security it will require at either the POS or while being carried in one's pocket.

WHEN this is put out there by Apple, we all know that it will just work - unlike what have already been tried. How many people have seen this technology where it can be used? I would appreciate ONE device that allows me to move about without carrying a wallet, credit cards, keys, etc.

Those bags used for disk drives and RAM cards are supposed to prevent interference from other electronic devices. However, the test involving enclosing a cellphone in the device and then calling that phone fails. Those videos showing how to make a Faraday cage wallet are just as dumb.

The security issue is just a common excuse and misconception. It's not there isn't any security, but just a matter of coming up with the right method to protect against theft as phones are far easier to lose or steal than someone's credit card, and banks and developers know this. They may not be able to solve all the problems without sacrificing functionality or making it too complicated, but current solutions meet at least halfway and is enough for people to jump on the tech. The fact that NFC is now added to almost all the new Android phones and many people are actively seeking it as a feature work investing in shows that they are not opposed to the tech.

Mastercard's PayPass has already been around for years and is what Google Wallet uses. If you have tried to used GWallet, you would know that although it's not a true credit card, it works flawlessly by like a debit card/prepaid credit card, where you add a small balance and then make charges at any location that has a PayPass terminal, for example, McDonald's.

charlituna
Jul 8, 2012, 11:17 AM
Better hope your battery never goes out, or the network, or the power at the store to power the device you send info to. You'll still need a wallet for I.D./DL.

Retina eye scan and a DNA prick.

----------

Personally, I'm not a fan at all of using NFC as a means for mobile payments. With as much consumer debt as people carry these days I would personally like to see us getting away from using methods that make it easier for people to pile up debt.

NFC does not equal credit. You can use it for prepaid options as well. Metro tap cards are one example.

KnightWRX
Jul 8, 2012, 11:18 AM
There is no way people can use this today because it does not have the security it will require at either the POS or while being carried in one's pocket.

How do Mastercard, Visa, Google and the Japanese people do it then ? :confused:

Maybe you're just ignorant of what is already out there using NFC technologies for payment. Apple better just stick to what exists, we don't need another VHS vs Beta, Blu-ray vs HD-DVD war in the mobile payment area. Why can't these things ever get ratified and standardised and launch with every vendor on-board ?

Always one to play lone wolf with a competing format, confusing the marketplace.

ixodes
Jul 8, 2012, 11:19 AM
Just read another rumor, that claims it's highly unlikely that iPhone 5 will have the mobile payment system that Apple's working on.

If true, I'll be thrilled.

I have zero interest in it at this point, and would _avoid_ buying an iPhone with Apples implementation of NFC/MPS. I don't even need to know any of the specifics, it's simply a deal breaker for me.

charlituna
Jul 8, 2012, 11:26 AM
. I was really surprised the US doesn't use this and still has the archaic magnetic strip and sign for method.



There is also swipe and pin. And even swipe and no pin for small things like a cup of coffee (if the company chooses to take the risk of a chargeback).

There are also some places like Starbucks where you can load a prepay account via a phone app and just 'swipe' a barcode in front of a little scanner at the register. I even get a discount on my soy milk substitution and my vanilla syrup etc. it isn't any more effort than tapping a chip etc

----------

. Heck, they often say "NO" only to turn around and do the opposite 1 year later. "People don't read books", "Web apps is the way to write iPhone software", "No one wants to watch video on a small screen device", etc... etc...

People do love to quote Apple out of context. And to forget that when they have said such things there was typically not tech even on the horizon to make any other choice. But then the tech changed and Apple changed with it.

Doing it that way, instead of using current and less capable tech just to say you did it, is innovative in many cases.

Bezetos
Jul 8, 2012, 12:59 PM
I love how they are able to change every "problem" into a good thing.

Missing a feature? Deliberate strategy.

You know, like MMS.

And copy & paste.

And a notification system.

And do-not-disturb mode.

----------


There are also some places like Starbucks where you can load a prepay account via a phone app and just 'swipe' a barcode in front of a little scanner at the register. I even get a discount on my soy milk substitution and my vanilla syrup etc. it isn't any more effort than tapping a chip etc
You cannot implement all necessary protocols by only using a barcode approach.

SBlue1
Jul 8, 2012, 01:04 PM
This could be something promesing. Curious about the future.

theelysium
Jul 8, 2012, 01:17 PM
Who cares! They make a case for that! If you really want NFC.

soLoredd
Jul 8, 2012, 01:58 PM
I'm just sick of seeing the same iPhone/Giants picture. Its been how many years now? That phone in the photo is a 3GS for crying out loud.

I like the way the Starbucks app works: I can reload it when I want to, quick scan at the register of the screen and I'm done. No risk for someone stealing the transmitted info.

doctor-don
Jul 8, 2012, 04:01 PM
How do Mastercard, Visa, Google and the Japanese people do it then ? :confused:

Maybe you're just ignorant of what is already out there using NFC technologies for payment. Apple better just stick to what exists, we don't need another VHS vs Beta, Blu-ray vs HD-DVD war in the mobile payment area. Why can't these things ever get ratified and standardised and launch with every vendor on-board ?

Always one to play lone wolf with a competing format, confusing the marketplace.

You mean like the adoption of a micro-B USB charging cable for phones?

mully1121
Jul 8, 2012, 10:48 PM
I'm STILL getting used to using my phone for boarding pass barcodes or remembering to use my Starbucks app instead of buying gift cards (these are just habits).

As a Starbucks employee, let me tell a lot of us hate the phone apps. Half the time the phone freezes or the customer can't figure out how to work it. Plus we aren't allowed to touch the phones (understandable, not complaining about that) so if we aren't on the right register (one that has a detachable scanner) we have to track someone down who is. To me the technology still needs some work, right now it causes more headaches than its worth.

hchung
Jul 8, 2012, 11:57 PM
No, not for the Japanese and South Koreans.

Apparently, you do not realize that the U.S. is terribly behind the times with much about cellular technology. They've had NFC-enabled cellphones since 2005. Tens of millions of Japanese use their cellphones for NFC contactless payments as well as transit systems every single day.

Again, most Americans are completely clueless as to how well a payment-enabled cellphone really is and the fact that there are modern countries who have been using these systems for years and would silently blink if they read the embarrassingly naive commentary here on MacRumors, AppleInsider, or dozens of other American-centric technology forums.

It would be great if I could use my iPhone as a Clipper Card (the SF Bay Area's contactless transit card which works with eight local transit agencies). It would remove one card from my wallet.

They're available in Japan but adoption is nowhere near what cvaldes think it is.

I've posted in the past that while there's tons of NFC capable phones in Japan, I've yet to see one used.

While the stats in the first post here (http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php/1644666-Usage-and-penetration-of-osaifu-keitai) are from 2009, you can still see that with 5 years of reliability and 50 million phones, the adoption rate is pretty bad.

hchung
Jul 9, 2012, 12:16 AM
My Visa is Paypass enabled. Google Wallet uses Paypass. MasterCard pushes Paypass.

Seems to me, Paypass is the NFC standard for North America.

Your Visa should be payWave, not paypass, I think. Competing vendor, same technology.

cjbryce
Jul 9, 2012, 02:36 AM
iBank :apple:

This is probably more realistic than you might think. I work in the Payments industry and I can say that the established banks consider this sort of new entrant (Google/Apple) as a serious threat.

KnightWRX
Jul 9, 2012, 04:01 AM
Your Visa should be payWave, not paypass, I think. Competing vendor, same technology.

No matter the branding, works on the same terminal.

dannys1
Jul 9, 2012, 06:54 AM
There is also swipe and pin. And even swipe and no pin for small things like a cup of coffee (if the company chooses to take the risk of a chargeback).

Swipe and pin makes sense for speed I guess. I'm not sure what you meant by "tapping a chip" though, maybe you think chip and pin is something else?

In the UK you have the pin terminal in front of you - your card has a chip on the front, you insert it into the reader, the cashier enters the amount and you enter your pin to pay. Part of it was to stop people forging signatures which was so easy it was ridiculous - anyone could pick up anyones card and just scribble - most don't even check the signatures or wouldn't have the bottle to say it doesn't match anyway. But it was also to stop the cashier ever handling the card which stopped the fraud from their site - with card cloners etc

I suppose swiping and entering your pin if you have the terminal in front of you covers both methods however there is a security reason the UK decided to invest millions using the chips in the cards rather than just making use of the magnetic strips that have always been there for decades.

kevinfulton.ca
Jul 9, 2012, 04:58 PM
As a Starbucks employee, let me tell a lot of us hate the phone apps. Half the time the phone freezes or the customer can't figure out how to work it. Plus we aren't allowed to touch the phones (understandable, not complaining about that) so if we aren't on the right register (one that has a detachable scanner) we have to track someone down who is. To me the technology still needs some work, right now it causes more headaches than its worth.

HA! Yeah I've noticed that. Some locations it's fine (probably because people in the area use them more) others I get a blank stare of a groan. The whole QRcode scanning just seems like a temporary tech until a better method (NFC or something else) is fully adopted.

mex4eric
Jul 9, 2012, 05:57 PM
Apple likes to think out the utility to the user and get it just right. Just like the Sony camera in the 4S, it's an excellent camera, but it is the software that makes it sing: the face detection, the auto focus, the tap to select the focus and exposure zone, the HDR feature. Just having a near field chip is nothing, making it useful, friendly and safe is what will make it sing.

Take your time Apple and bring out a blockbuster function.

HishamAkhtar
Jul 9, 2012, 10:14 PM
This is probably more realistic than you might think. I work in the Payments industry and I can say that the established banks consider this sort of new entrant (Google/Apple) as a serious threat.

I hope Apple doesn't get into stuff like that. As much as I like the company, I don't want them garnering such monopolies over such basic aspects of our life. There needs to be variety and competition.

ixodes
Jul 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
I'm very open minded to advancing technologies, and change. Yet Apple is bordering on far too powerful & influential now.

There's no question that NFC will be a part of our future, but I'd prefer to see Apple arrange a strategic partnership with an existing financial institution like VISA. That alliance would be more reasonable with fees, than if Apple goes it alone and establishes Apple Financial.

If they have control over every aspect of the transaction, we'll pay more since Apples marketing genius will sell "the convenience" and just like people pay more at a convenience store, those who lack impulse control will rack up obscene amounts of debt.

Once Apple does decide to build NFC into iOS, if the phone is "NFC enabled" where activation and billing is handled by VISA (just an example) then I'd have no objection.

But knowing Apple, my bet is they setup everything so they have complete control and profit from each transaction. Another closed proprietary system. The benefit to Apple is just too profitable for them to partner with any financial institution.

The Banks & Agencies like VISA M/C et al, know this and that's precisely why they are very worried. Apples clout is not to be underestimated.

Presently the wind is at their back, they have incredible momentum, and by all outward appearances they seem unstoppable.

Very...very worrisome.

Thomas P.
Jul 10, 2012, 01:24 AM
This is where the problem lies in the Apple, they don't work on time, and when some other company takes the lead, they will then go for court cases and legal actions against them for stealing their technology.

Apple should be careful about these things. Instead they should just release their stuff and not to wait long enough before some other company gets a hint of their Mobile Payment System idea and implement it before them.

:Finger Crossed:

anitaG
Aug 20, 2012, 01:07 AM
Of course, but I believe payment thru mobile phone is easy too.

anitaG
Aug 20, 2012, 01:20 AM
No doubt your right. But i think it's part of their advertisement, probably the reason why other company might know about it. Similarly mobile payments are type of the next big thing in consumer finance. A group of main retailers have announced a new program using a cell phone app, called the Merchant Customer Exchange. The program is part of a partnership by Walmart, Best Buy and other retailers. Indeed, Merchant Customer Exchange mobile payment system is coming soon (http://personalmoneynetwork.com/moneyblog/2012/08/16/merchant-customer-exchange/).;)