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MacRumors
Jul 7, 2012, 01:15 AM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/07/apple-pulls-products-from-environmental-epeat-registry/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/07/epeat-150x83.jpg

Apple has notified (http://www.epeat.net/2012/06/news/apple-leaves-epeat/) the Electronic Product Environmental Assessment Tool (EPEAT) that it is withdrawing its products from the EPEAT registry and will no longer be submitting its products to EPEAT for environmental rating. CIO Journal spoke (http://blogs.wsj.com/cio/2012/07/06/apple-removes-green-electronics-certification-from-products/) with Robert Frisbee, CEO of EPEAT, who offered slightly more color to the decision:"They said their design direction was no longer consistent with the EPEAT requirements," Frisbee said. The company did not elaborate, Frisbee said. "They were important supporters and we are disappointed that they don't want their products measured by this standard anymore."EPEAT certification requires certain standards that make the machines easy to disassemble and recycle using common tools. Apple's recent Mac products, such as the Retina MacBook Pro, are difficult to fully disassemble making them ineligible for certification. iFixIt explains (http://ifixit.org/2884/apple-ditches-green-standard-cuts-off-federal-agencies-from-apple-products/): According to my EPEAT contacts, Apple's mobile design direction is in conflict with the intended direction of the standard. Specifically, the standard lays out particular requirements for product "disassemble-ability," a very important consideration for recycling: "External enclosures, chassis, and electronic subassemblies shall be removable with commonly available tools or by hand."The move could have a financial impact on Apple's sales. CIO Reports that many corporations require EPEAT certified computers. Meanwhile, the U.S. government requires 95% of electronics purchases also be EPEAT certified.

The move does not seem to affect Apple's popular iPhone and iPad devices, as they are presently a class of product not certified (http://ww2.epeat.net/searchoptions.aspx) by EPEAT.

Article Link: Apple Pulls Products from Environmental EPEAT Registry (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/07/apple-pulls-products-from-environmental-epeat-registry/)



SprodeBoy
Jul 7, 2012, 01:18 AM
At first this seemed like nothing important. But that fact about the government and EPEAT technologies... Wasn't apple going to introduce iPads into the FAA?

macingman
Jul 7, 2012, 01:18 AM
Interesting, I guess in the pursuit of thiness Apple is forced to use things which aren't enviromentally friendly like glue or whatever. Interesting as Apple used to use enviromental friendliness as a major selling point a few years back.

racer1441
Jul 7, 2012, 01:19 AM
Good for Apple. These groups are no different than the mob demanding protection money from shop owners so they remain safe from the mob.

Power Macintosh
Jul 7, 2012, 01:22 AM
Al Gore will not be happy.

fun173
Jul 7, 2012, 01:23 AM
EPEAT certification requires certain standards that make the machines easy to disassemble and recycle using common tools.

*Stops wondering why Apple pulled products*

east85
Jul 7, 2012, 01:24 AM
This is a pretty sad moment, honestly. I mean this was helpful on the user end as well, even if you don't give a crap about the environment. It made their products more easily repairable and accessible for maintenance.

Pyrrhic Victory
Jul 7, 2012, 01:25 AM
Who cares about the safety of the planet, I just want my computer to be a few millimeters thinner!

arn
Jul 7, 2012, 01:28 AM
At first this seemed like nothing important. But that fact about the government and EPEAT technologies... Wasn't apple going to introduce iPads into the FAA?

Seems tablets aren't EPEAT certifiable, so it doesn't' affect iPads or iPhones

arn

bluush
Jul 7, 2012, 01:29 AM
Who cares about the safety of the planet, I just want my computer to be a few millimeters thinner!

Exactly. So many Apple fans will demonize EPEAT over this in an attempt to brush over what a lame move by Apple this is. The stereotype that Mac users are nothing but liberals who pretend to care about social and environmental issues but deep down really don't care at all is validated by this move on Apple's part. Bypassing EPEAT just to have a new barely thinner laptop to release each year to please the crowds is not really the kind of company I like to do business with.

spacepower7
Jul 7, 2012, 01:30 AM
Can't literally ripping a computer apart and smelting the metal be environmentally friendly?

Does recycle mean reuse in the standard? I got plenyt of old Dells that I can recycle but nobody would reuse their ancient parts. Actually most places want to charge me to recycle the,.

This all sounds like bureaucracy that Apple has already figured out a better way to deal with it?

Just wondering....

Peace
Jul 7, 2012, 01:33 AM
If other laptop makers use the same basic design as the Air then they might be doing the same.

colour
Jul 7, 2012, 01:34 AM
Interesting, I guess in the pursuit of thiness Apple is forced to use things which aren't enviromentally friendly like glue or whatever. Interesting as Apple used to use enviromental friendliness as a major selling point a few years back.

Exactly! I concreted my theory that apple has become predominantly about money and market share when the retina Macbook was released.

It's pretty disgusting IMO as I would have thought apple was design conscious towards environmental issues. As it turns out they were just using the whole thing as leverage for marketing and pushing sales as being "environmentally conscious" was trending. They worked around that and used it as their sales key.

Apples intentions are becoming more apparent as time goes on, first the macbook airs (which wasn't a bad idea) then the retina MBP designs... again, focusing on trends to maximize sales and furthermore charging unjustifiable prices for initial BTO upgrades.

Congrats apple, turns out you don't care for the environment... or anything else but power, money and market share.

Orange Furball
Jul 7, 2012, 01:39 AM
power, money and market share.

Honestly, does this surprise you? Everyone gets greedy. Why can't apple?

TMar
Jul 7, 2012, 01:39 AM
Can't literally ripping a computer apart and smelting the metal be environmentally friendly?

Does recycle mean reuse in the standard? I got plenyt of old Dells that I can recycle but nobody would reuse their ancient parts. Actually most places want to charge me to recycle the,.

This all sounds like bureaucracy that Apple has already figured out a better way to deal with it?

Just wondering....

While I don't agree with the standard itself, this part of it is about if I have a faulty batter in my new macbook pro it's almost unrepairable. This isn't machines being repaired years after their prime but new machines being wasted because they are highly unrepairable.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 01:40 AM
Good for Apple. These groups are no different than the mob demanding protection money from shop owners so they remain safe from the mob.

Bad for Apple's business if they can't sell their products in some places. I don't like these groups either, but business isn't about rebellion.

----------

While I don't agree with the standard itself, this part of it is about if I have a faulty batter in my new mac pro it's almost unrepairable. This isn't machines being repaired years after their prime but new machines being wasted because they are highly unrepairable.

You have a battery in your Mac Pro? Lucky. I asked if I could install one, and the only reply I got was "no".

colour
Jul 7, 2012, 01:42 AM
Can't literally ripping a computer apart and smelting the metal be environmentally friendly?

Does recycle mean reuse in the standard? I got plenyt of old Dells that I can recycle but nobody would reuse their ancient parts. Actually most places want to charge me to recycle the,.

This all sounds like bureaucracy that Apple has already figured out a better way to deal with it?

Just wondering....

Sure apple use aluminium and recycled glass ect ect ect. That is only one aspect (of many) of the concept of a product being environmentally friendly.

Knowing apple they will come up with a few schemes to combat this claim, such as offering to upgrade and recycle apple products for a price. Again keeping all money generated in apples pockets.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 01:43 AM
Who cares about the safety of the planet, I just want my computer to be a few millimeters thinner!

From what the article said, it looks more like Apple's laptops just can't be judged by EPEAT due to incompatibilities with their rating system, but I wouldn't be surprised if the thinner laptops were harder to recycle.

----------

Sure apple use aluminium and recycled glass ect ect ect. That is only one aspect (of many) of the concept of a product being environmentally friendly.

Knowing apple they will come up with a few schemes to combat this claim, such as offering to upgrade and recycle apple products for a price. Again keeping all money generated in apples pockets.

How about Mac leasing?

BlazednSleepy
Jul 7, 2012, 01:44 AM
To be honest, I'm a little disappointed in apple. I always appreciated the fact that these computers were highly recyclable and better on the environment than most electronics now a days. I figured apple would somehow develop a way to get these batteries off safely so they can be recycled.

If this is the way technology is going to become, getting smaller and lighter but less conscious about the world we live in then I'm not for it.:(

TMar
Jul 7, 2012, 01:44 AM
----------

You have a battery in your Mac Pro? Lucky. I asked if I could install one, and the only reply I got was "no".

It was edited prior to your post but nice try.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 01:46 AM
This is a pretty sad moment, honestly. I mean this was helpful on the user end as well, even if you don't give a crap about the environment. It made their products more easily repairable and accessible for maintenance.

The soldered-on RAM is not nice.

----------

It was edited prior to your post but nice try.

Oh. I was actually serious about trying to get a battery into my Mac Pro. It seems more sensible than an external UPS, and I think the iMacs should have small laptop batteries in them.

colour
Jul 7, 2012, 01:48 AM
Honestly, does this surprise you? Everyone gets greedy. Why can't apple?

Apple isn't a bank where making more money is their business.

Apple has more of a responsibility given their impact on society as a innovative tech company, when you design a iphone, ipad, ipod you should consider the ethics of design, this is apple this isn't some small Chinese company trying to get out of bankruptcy by selling cheap crap.

Apple built their reputation on what others didn't do! That is the apple that I loved. Do you want to see apple turn into a windows or equivalent.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 01:48 AM
To be honest, I'm a little disappointed in apple. I always appreciated the fact that these computers were highly recyclable and better on the environment than most electronics now a days. I figured apple would somehow develop a way to get these batteries off safely so they can be recycled.

If this is the way technology is going to become, getting smaller and lighter but less conscious about the world we live in then I'm not for it.:(

I don't see this making a big environmental impact, but Apple should be more responsible about recycling now that their products require more specialized tools to disassemble.

LethalWolfe
Jul 7, 2012, 01:49 AM
Can't literally ripping a computer apart and smelting the metal be environmentally friendly?

Does recycle mean reuse in the standard? I got plenyt of old Dells that I can recycle but nobody would reuse their ancient parts. Actually most places want to charge me to recycle the,.

This all sounds like bureaucracy that Apple has already figured out a better way to deal with it?

Just wondering....
From what I've read glass bonded directly to aluminium like Apple is doing w/the new rMBP and iPad renders the material not recyclable.

AustinIllini
Jul 7, 2012, 01:49 AM
Al Gore will not be happy.

He heard the news on his macbook whilst riding around in his Chevy Suburban.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 01:50 AM
Apple isn't a bank where making more money is their business.

Apple has more of a responsibility given their impact on society as a innovative tech company, when you design a iphone, ipad, ipod you should consider the ethics of design, this is apple this isn't some small Chinese company trying to get out of bankruptcy by selling cheap crap.

Apple built their reputation on what others didn't do! That is the apple that I loved. Do you want to see apple turn into a windows or equivalent.

Yes, it is Apple's business to make money.

An entire company run inside an OS would be interesting, actually, even if it's Windows.

JoeG4
Jul 7, 2012, 01:51 AM
I really doubt that using pentalobe screws and gluing batteries into the rMBP made it any thinner lol. In fact, gluing the battery in probably made it heavier, if anything.

Ryth
Jul 7, 2012, 01:52 AM
“External enclosures, chassis, and electronic subassemblies shall be removable with commonly available tools or by hand.”I don't think it's about the recycling at all.

I think its about the ease of tearing apart the machines with recycling companies current tools and machines available to these recyclers. They don't have the ability to deal with the new types of enclosures or builds Apple is making, which is required to continue to innovate in the sector. We all know you need special tools to open a MBPro Retina or iPad/iPhone.

So lets turn this around...

Why can't EPEAT require their recyclers to upgrade their tools and machines so they can handle these new sets of computers/tablets/smartphones, etc. from Apple???

I think it's a fair question.

I personally don't think Apple needs to be 'stuck' in the past nor do I expect them to not innovate because of this. In fact I believe its up to the EPEAT to require their 'recyclers' to upgrade their tools to be able to handle the next generation of these types of machines...

Lastly, don't be surprised if Apple offers their own 'recycling' soon on their products.

fun173
Jul 7, 2012, 01:52 AM
You have a battery in your Mac Pro? Lucky. I asked if I could install one, and the only reply I got was "no".


If being sarcastic the Mac Pro does actually have a battery. It's called the PRAM battery.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 01:54 AM
He heard the news on his macbook whilst riding around in his Chevy Suburban.

Our school wanted to save the planet, so they printed out a bunch of papers that say "recycling" and taped them to the recycling bins that already say "recycling" on them. Going green!

----------

If being sarcastic the Mac Pro does actually have a battery. It's called the PRAM battery.

Yeah, but I was assuming a PRAM battery would always be replaceable. And I think desktop Macs should have small laptop batteries in them for power outages or surges. I actually did ask that question on the Apple support forums, and someone just replied "no".

----------


So lets turn this around...

Why can't EPEAT require their recyclers to upgrade their tools and machines so they can handle these new sets of computers/tablets/smartphones, etc. from Apple???

I think it's a fair question.


You don't turn the planet-saving organization around. You make the big, evil, nasty corporation change.

ScottishCaptain
Jul 7, 2012, 01:56 AM
I've been an Apple user for a long time.

I will not be buying a "Retina" MacBook Pro solely because I do not agree with the direction those machines are heading in. If Apple continues to depreciate existing hardware in favour for machines that are literally held together with glue, then I will never buy an Apple laptop again.

There's a dozen ways in which Apple could have gone about the assembly of these machines differently, and left the lithium packs easily removable and serviceable. But they didn't- they sprang for the cheapest and fastest way of assembling the machine and covered the whole thing up with a healthy coating of "because we wanted to make it thinner" marketing ********.

These machines are disposable, plain and simple- the same way the iPad 2 is. They were never designed to be serviced, they were designed to fail and be replaced. You absolutely 100% have to purchase Applecare with the rMBP because you'd have to be insane not to- if your battery goes, the chassis is toast. If a single bit in your 16GB of main memory (note that the rMBP RAM is not ECC) goes, the logic board is toast. If your iSight breaks, your entire monitor is toast.

I'm all for thinner and lighter systems, but the rMBP has simply gone too far. And that's disappointing. And for the first time in a long time, I'm actually siding with the environmentalists on this one- I hope Apple feels the burn of their actions, and that this actually hurts them in the long run.

Only then will they realize how jaw-droppingly retarded building systems like this actually is, and we might get new models that are only marginally thicker (less then a millimetre) and actually serviceable.

-SC

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 01:57 AM
I've been an Apple user for a long time.

I will not be buying a "Retina" MacBook Pro solely because I do not agree with the direction those machines are heading in. If Apple continues to depreciate existing hardware in favour for machines that are literally held together with glue, then I will never buy an Apple laptop again.

There's a dozen ways in which Apple could have gone about the assembly of these machines differently, and left the lithium packs easily removable and serviceable. But they didn't- they sprang for the cheapest and fastest way of assembling the machine and covered the whole thing up with a healthy coating of "because we wanted to make it thinner" marketing ********.

These machines are disposable, plain and simple- the same way the iPad 2 is. They were never designed to be serviced, they were designed to fail and be replaced. You absolutely 100% have to purchase Applecare with the rMBP because you'd have to be insane not to- if your battery goes, the chassis is toast. If a single bit in your 16GB of main memory (note that the rMBP RAM is not ECC) goes, the logic board is toast. If your iSight breaks, your entire monitor is toast.

I'm all for thinner and lighter systems, but the rMBP has simply gone too far. And that's disappointing. And for the first time in a long time, I'm actually siding with the environmentalists on this one- I hope Apple feels the burn of their actions, and that this actually hurts them in the long run.

Only then will they realize how jaw-droppingly retarded building systems like this actually is, and we might get new models that are only marginally thicker (less then a millimetre) that are actually reasonably serviceable.

-SC

I was really only upset about the lack of Firewire and ethernet and the soldered-on RAM. That is total BS. And, if anything, why didn't Apple make a retina 13" model? The way to stick with the Apple I liked is to stick with my 2008 Mac. That's when Apple was at the top of their game.

Renzatic
Jul 7, 2012, 01:58 AM
If being sarcastic the Mac Pro does actually have a battery. It's called the PRAM battery.

Nope. It's powered off the smug satisfaction the owner generates due to owning a retina MBP.

Every time the owner types the word "innovation" on a forum, the rMBP gets an extra 10 minutes of battery life.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 01:59 AM
Nope. It's powered off the smug satisfaction the owner generates due to owning a retina MBP.

Every time the owner types the word "innovation" on a forum, the rMBP gets an extra 10 minutes of battery life.

We're talking about the Mac Pro, not the MacBook Pro Retina. I actually want a small laptop battery in my Mac Pro and/or in the iMac models to thwart the power hiccups that California Edison allows. Now THAT would be "innovation" if the technology would work for this.

racer1441
Jul 7, 2012, 02:01 AM
Bad for Apple's business if they can't sell their products in some places. I don't like these groups either, but business isn't about rebellion.

I'm more likely to believe that this will be a trend of more and more companies getting away from these groups vs it hurting apple.

swingerofbirch
Jul 7, 2012, 02:02 AM
This is a pretty sad moment, honestly. I mean this was helpful on the user end as well, even if you don't give a crap about the environment. It made their products more easily repairable and accessible for maintenance.

I agree that it creates a worse user experience:

You can't carry an extra battery with you.
If your battery dies, you can't buy one online. You need your computer serviced (out of commission).
If your hard drive dies, you need service.
If something in your computer besides your hard drive dies, you can't take it out and pop it in an enclosure to keep working while your computer gets repaired. In fact, if you send it in to be repaired, you could lose your hard drive data. What if you hadn't backed up? In the past, you could just take the drive out, seat it in a similar Mac or put it in an enclosure. Now, even if your drive is fully functional, but the computer won't work for another reason, and you send off your computer to be repaired for a separate issue, you have no way to retrieve the data, unless you had already backed up.

I think one mistake Apple made with making MacBooks like iPhones (in terms of nothing being user accessible and that the unit works or fails as one unit) is that they didn't switch the service strategy at the same time. With an iPhone, if your phone stops working you can swap it out same day at any Apple Store for a new unit. If it's an out of warranty issue, you pay a small percentage of the full retail value of the phone for a replacement. And with the iPhone Apple has tried to make full backups as unavoidable as possible (either through iTunes or iCloud).

I could see the closed unit MacBook working out better if Apple allowed for such simple exchanges, had super cheap prices for out of warranty replacements like they do iPhones, and the technology were there and used more often for frequent complete backups. But as it right now, it's a compromise. Apple repairs MacBooks by sending them off. Out of warranty repairs (logic board, display, for example) are not cost feasible. And a lot of people don't back up their computers. When you seal it all up, you take away the customer's ability to get around those compromising service issues.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 02:04 AM
I'm more likely to believe that this will be a trend of more and more companies getting away from these groups vs it hurting apple.

It depends on how strong this organization's power is. I have honestly never heard of EPEAT before, so I don't know how great the risk of saying "@#$% you" to them is.

Renzatic
Jul 7, 2012, 02:04 AM
...oh. Well...uh...

It's late, I'm tired, and I should've gone to bed hours ago. Just...uh...excuse me. :P

Also, you could always buy a UPS to combat the brown outs and few second power interrupts. It's not the small, sleek solution you're probably looking for, but it'll do exactly what you want.

baryon
Jul 7, 2012, 02:05 AM
I do hope that Apple will come up with a way to keep things thin while making them easy to disassemble. I think it's great that they can produce such nice products, but there's nothing I hate more than glued together products, when repairs are basically impossible.

Not that I'm going to try to repair my motherboard or anything like that anyway, but this pretty much means that computers are becoming much less modular (if at all) and more of a disposable product.

I don't mind the iPhone being disposable, since after 2-3 years it becomes so slow anyway that it's impossible to use even if it works fine on the hardware side. In that sense it's a disposable product anyway, so repairability is not relevant.

For a MacBook Pro, I don't expect to bin the whole computer as it is every 3 years like clockwork. Extending the life with more RAM and more storage should be easy and should add 1-2 extra years, which can be very valuable when you just so happen to not have a giant pile of gold in your wallet.

colour
Jul 7, 2012, 02:06 AM
Yes, it is Apple's business to make money.

Really? Could have sworn they where here to innovate computer and mobile technology. They are not an investment bank.

As per apples website http://investor.apple.com/faq.cfm?FaqSetID=6 (http://investor.apple.com/faq.cfm?FaqSetID=6)


What is Apple's mission statement?
Apple designs Macs, the best personal computers in the world, along with OS X, iLife, iWork and professional software. Apple leads the digital music revolution with its iPods and iTunes online store. Apple has reinvented the mobile phone with its revolutionary iPhone and App Store, and is defining the future of mobile media and computing devices with iPad.



An entire company run inside an OS would be interesting, actually, even if it's Windows.

I will ignore this as I didn't realize you were 16 or at least your level of humor is.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 02:09 AM
I really doubt that using pentalobe screws and gluing batteries into the rMBP made it any thinner lol. In fact, gluing the battery in probably made it heavier, if anything.

Gluing probably shaved down a few millimeters because the glue takes up almost no space, but there is a weight/size threshold for laptops that the MBPR is still not below. Until it goes below that (around MacBook Air weight/size), I don't care how thick or heavy it is as long as it's not as thick and heavy as the 2007 MBPs.

----------

Really? Could have sworn they where here to innovate computer and mobile technology. They are not an investment bank.

Just because they aren't a bank doesn't mean their mission isn't to make money. Do you think they're going to put on their site: "Our mission is to make money."? Every business's mission is to make money unless it is non-profit, and even some non-profits still have that mission.


I will ignore this as I didn't realize you were 16 or at least your level of humor is.
What does realizing my age have to do with Apple running inside of Windows?

Peace
Jul 7, 2012, 02:09 AM
I wouldn't get all up in arms here yet.

Go do some searching on their website and see who else is missing.

That would be most ultra books and some newer laptops.

http://ww2.epeat.net/searchoptions.aspx

reden
Jul 7, 2012, 02:10 AM
Exactly! I concreted my theory that apple has become predominantly about money and market share when the retina Macbook was released.

It's pretty disgusting IMO as I would have thought apple was design conscious towards environmental issues. As it turns out they were just using the whole thing as leverage for marketing and pushing sales as being "environmentally conscious" was trending. They worked around that and used it as their sales key.

Apples intentions are becoming more apparent as time goes on, first the macbook airs (which wasn't a bad idea) then the retina MBP designs... again, focusing on trends to maximize sales and furthermore charging unjustifiable prices for initial BTO upgrades.

Congrats apple, turns out you don't care for the environment... or anything else but power, money and market share.

I'm not going to sit here and protect Apple, but a business is a business. They aren't here to protect your interests or be a flower in the environment. Businesses are setup to make profit. If you don't agree with whatever Apple is doing and need to make a dramatic statement, stop buying the products and move on your life. If the laws allow what businesses are doing, that means the public in general agrees to the behavior. Don't sit there and tell me if you had a business worth billions, providing thousands of jobs, you wouldn't make decisions like these.

If yes, then exactly, you shouldn't be running a business, regardless working your 9-5 contributes to this cycle as well so... rinse and repeat. Also, Apple probably contributes more money to the environment than you will in five lifetimes.

lostngone
Jul 7, 2012, 02:11 AM
I am for anything that pisses off greenpeace!

colour
Jul 7, 2012, 02:12 AM
I've been an Apple user for a long time.

I will not be buying a "Retina" MacBook Pro solely because I do not agree with the direction those machines are heading in . . .

It's good to see that there are long time users who do realize that apple is shooting itself in the foot. As much as I love some parts of the retina macbook I am holding out at the moment. I think the design will be changed very quickly IMO, with the direction it's going quality in design and hardware is starting to slide.

There should be a section in this forum for discussion that excludes fanboyism.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 02:14 AM
I am for anything that **** off greenpeace!

What is supposed to fit in that 4-character space? Anyway, I also don't like Greenpeace or many of these environmental organizations. Their goal seems like it's a bit different from just saving the environment.

----------

It's good to see that there are long time users who do realize that apple is shooting itself in the foot. As much as I love some parts of the retina macbook I am holding out at the moment. I think the design will be changed very quickly IMO, with the direction it's going quality in design and hardware is starting to slide.

There should be a section in this forum for discussion that excludes fanboyism.

Remember when Apple dropped Firewire from all MacBook models or something? I think it was back in 2008. They also got rid of some other features. They quickly realized their mistake, luckily. I'm a bit scared this time since they seem to be successful in this case. I hate the MBPR design.

reden
Jul 7, 2012, 02:15 AM
What is supposed to fit in that 4-character space? Anyway, I also don't like Greenpeace or many of these environmental organizations. Their goal seems like it's a bit different from just saving the environment.

Their goal is same as Apple's goal, and any other business' goal, to make money.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 02:16 AM
I wouldn't get all up in arms here yet.

Go do some searching on their website and see who else is missing.

That would be most ultra books and some newer laptops.

http://ww2.epeat.net/searchoptions.aspx

This is satisfying. I like it when these dumb standards organizations get shunned.

----------

Their goal is same as Apple's goal, and any other business' goal, to make money.

Many non-profit organizations' goal is not to make money, and Greenpeace is non-profit, so I wouldn't automatically assign that goal to them.

reden
Jul 7, 2012, 02:23 AM
This is satisfying. I like it when these dumb standards organizations get shunned.

----------



Many non-profit organizations' goal is not to make money, and Greenpeace is non-profit, so I wouldn't automatically assign that goal to them.

I've worked for a couple non-profits as well as corporations, they operate the same way. People always trying to move up, show more profit and step on people to move up. The higher-ups like to see that because it makes more money and keeps them in their director roles since the npo is making money.

So, you didn't make a lot of money this quater or whatever? You're fired.

entropys
Jul 7, 2012, 02:25 AM
I am giggling at some of the reactions here. Sure, the MacBook pro retina is less user serviceable, but that wouldn't significantly effect its recyclability. It's not as though user servicing is all that common, and the poster complianing about not being able to take along a spare battery: seriously? Must be a blackberry user.

This story is really about the limitations of regulation and standards. A reg that makes sense when it is originally made, usually after time becomes anachronistic. These EPEAT standards are just another example as changes in technology make them less relevant and workable. They just need to be updated to reflect how ultrabooks and tablets are made.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 02:26 AM
I've worked for a couple non-profits as well as corporations, they operate the same way. People always trying to move up, show more profit and step on people to move up. The higher-ups like to see that because it makes more money and keeps them in their director roles since the npo is making money.

So, you didn't make a lot of money this quater or whatever? You're fired.

That's not very surprising, and it seems like any organization gets a free pass as long as they look like a charity, but there must be some non-profits that aren't all about making money. I'm pretty sure all corporations are about making money.

colour
Jul 7, 2012, 02:27 AM
If yes, then exactly, you shouldn't be running a business, regardless working your 9-5 contributes to this cycle as well so... rinse and repeat. Also, Apple probably contributes more money to the environment than you will in five lifetimes.

That's hilarious, I really don't think Steve Jobs sat around in India or in his counter culture interests thinking.... I want to make the most money I can, I want to be filthy rich.

Jobs lived a modest and private life, it's been well documented. He worked hard for his company that cared not about money but making good products. These great products brought good sales and in turn $$$. Jobs was smart, he didn't build the company trying to make money, he made money from selling is great ideas.

Also, Apple probably contributes more money to the environment than you will in five lifetimes.

Sorry no, as an architect I personally choose to solve problems putting environmental and eco issues as a priority. Again proportionally apple only gives the smallest %, in monetary values this may look big but they could do plenty more if they wanted. You're not bright enough to realize that, your homework is to read this http://www.apple.com/environment/.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 02:29 AM
I am giggling at some of the reactions here. Sure, the MacBook pro retina is less user serviceable, but that wouldn't significantly effect its recyclability. It's not as though user servicing is all that common, and the poster complianing about not being able to take along a spare battery: seriously? Must be a blackberry user.

Even then, the soldered-on RAM is bogus. It's a trick to make people have to buy more RAM from Apple instead of just upgrading.

colour
Jul 7, 2012, 02:31 AM
If you don't agree with whatever Apple is doing and need to make a dramatic statement, stop buying the products and move on your life.

I have been back on windows for almost 3 years. I bought a 2011 macbook but returned it. And I use and prefer android currently.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 02:31 AM
Jobs was smart, he didn't build the company trying to make money, he made money from selling is great ideas.

Isn't selling your great ideas "trying to make money"? Sure people make companies based on what they love and what they're interested in, but the goal is to make money.

Puevlo
Jul 7, 2012, 02:37 AM
Just goes to show what a joke these environmental groups are becoming. If it were up to them we'd all be using iPhones made out of trees and mother earth rubbish. The only reason governments should be buying products is cause they get the job done.

gnasher729
Jul 7, 2012, 02:51 AM
While I don't agree with the standard itself, this part of it is about if I have a faulty batter in my new macbook pro it's almost unrepairable. This isn't machines being repaired years after their prime but new machines being wasted because they are highly unrepairable.

Since Apple will replace any battery for a fixed price, I cannot see how a faulty battery would be "almost unrepairable".


From what the article said, it looks more like Apple's laptops just can't be judged by EPEAT due to incompatibilities with their rating system, but I wouldn't be surprised if the thinner laptops were harder to recycle.

I'm sure they are somewhat harder to recycle. However, you can return any Apple product to Apple and Apple will recycle it; in many cases you will get some money off a new purchase. And while say a Retina MacBook Pro may not be recyclable with "commonly available tools", I would bet that Apple has the tools to recycle it.


Even then, the soldered-on RAM is bogus. It's a trick to make people have to buy more RAM from Apple instead of just upgrading.

Soldered RAM is cheaper, takes less space, and gives better connections. There are excellent technical reasons for soldered RAM. Of course you lose the ability to upgrade, which is a disadvantage, but there are definitely advantages.

blow45
Jul 7, 2012, 02:54 AM
Just goes to show what a joke these environmental groups are becoming. If it were up to them we'd all be using iPhones made out of trees and mother earth rubbish. The only reason governments should be buying products is cause they get the job done.

Apple gets certified by environmental group?
Praise apple for being environmentally conscious.

Apple opt for a design change that won't get them certification anymore?
Attack environmental groups.

If it were up to them we'd all be using iPhones made out of trees and mother earth rubbish.
This though is the best thing I 've read all day, hilarious and priceless.

Mackan
Jul 7, 2012, 03:23 AM
Apple gets certified by environmental group?
Praise apple for being environmentally conscious.

Apple opt for a design change that won't get them certification anymore?
Attack environmental groups.


That pretty much sums up the behavior of fan boys. Nothing more to say.

The Phazer
Jul 7, 2012, 03:24 AM
Sad, pathetic move from Apple.

Some of the fanboyness in this this thread is ludicrous.

haravikk
Jul 7, 2012, 03:24 AM
This is a bit disappointing; all they real needed to do was find a way to make the batteries removable in the newer laptops, which I can't believe was beyond Apple's capabilities.

An easily removable keyboard on the laptops could surely expose the inner workings; even if most of it wasn't user serviceable the point is really to avoid glueing everything, after all there are tons of tiny screws out there that they could have used, or even small spacers that pack everything together would have allowed them to hold things in place without it being impossible to disassemble.


Even if it were impossible for laptops (don't believe it) then they should at least be making the iMac and Mac Mini a bit easier; while the Mac Mini's RAM access was a great addition, the relative difficulty of accessing the internal drive(s) was still a bit of a downer.

Can they not submit individual products for certification? They have to at least make sure the Mac Pro remains certified as the current model is pretty easy to disassemble; it's a pain in the arse and can be a bit time consuming, but it's not difficult.

vmachiel
Jul 7, 2012, 03:27 AM
Who cares, they'll still make them without all the BFR, PVC, mercury etc. or the media will be all over them.

MagicBoy
Jul 7, 2012, 03:52 AM
Interesting. EPEAT Gold is a requirement for all computers purchased by my employer. I guess the Apple project just got cancelled.

3PO
Jul 7, 2012, 04:05 AM
Try building computer like the new MacBook Pro which is just as thin, light, durable and sturdy with the the upgrade options you are talking here. If you can maybe you should apply for job at Apple or some other company to show how itís done.

MagicBoy
Jul 7, 2012, 04:12 AM
Try building computer like the new MacBook Pro which is just as thin, light, durable and sturdy with the the upgrade options you are talking here. If you can maybe you should apply for job at Apple or some other company to show how it’s done.

Given a few months I'm sure Lenovo will manage it just fine. And it'll be EPEAT certified. It might be .02" thicker but that's just fine my me. Thinness isn't everything.

Invariably in the business world if you give someone a smaller and lighter laptop they just carry more paperwork around to make up for it. I call it Magic's law of upper management.

AaronEdwards
Jul 7, 2012, 04:36 AM
Try building computer like the new MacBook Pro which is just as thin, light, durable and sturdy with the the upgrade options you are talking here. If you can maybe you should apply for job at Apple or some other company to show how itís done.

Thin? Like the 1 mm difference in thickness between the Google Nexus 7 and the new iPad?

And please explain how propriety screws make Apple products more thin, light, durable, and sturdy.

iMacC2D
Jul 7, 2012, 04:41 AM
An easily removable keyboard on the laptops could surely expose the inner workings; even if most of it wasn't user serviceable the point is really to avoid glueing everything, after all there are tons of tiny screws out there that they could have used, or even small spacers that pack everything together would have allowed them to hold things in place without it being impossible to disassemble.

You only need to look to the MacBook Air to know that this is true. It's thinner than the MacBook Pro with Retina Display in every dimension, yet the battery is still secured in with a number of small Torx T5 screws. The structure between the battery cells is incredibly thin, but the Unibody takes the majority of the structural duties. I don't see any reason why glue was required to secure the battery cells into the MacBook Pro (Retina) primarily due to this fact.

MuppetGate
Jul 7, 2012, 04:56 AM
From reading the article, the problem isn't that the kit can't be recycled; it's that it can't be recycled by just anybody.

I suspect that Apple just wants all its unwanted kit returned to them. They can take the parts and reuse them in new/refurbished products. I also think that they're trying to avoid a future where folk buy a new thin and shiny laptop that is actually made up of components salvaged from dumped Apple stuff.

No matter how much folk here bang on about being able to open up their laptops and change this and upgrade that, the vast majority of machines are never opened, never upgraded and dumped in a landfill when a better model comes out.

So I don't have a problem with Apple pulling out of this scheme, but they have to have something better to replace it with, and with an incentive for people to actually use it.

Ashwee
Jul 7, 2012, 05:00 AM
Bad move Apple, at least show some interest in the environment, a few screws won't hurt anyone

princigalli
Jul 7, 2012, 05:10 AM
As a mac user, I am sad about this. It's one of the many things Apple is doing that I find very disappointing. From killing FCP to this.

SpyderBite
Jul 7, 2012, 05:20 AM
Even then, the soldered-on RAM is bogus. It's a trick to make people have to buy more RAM from Apple instead of just upgrading.

There's no "trick" involved. You know that is not upgradable before you buy it. Or you figure it out inside of two weeks & return/exchange it. There is no slight of hand going on here.

sinsin07
Jul 7, 2012, 05:40 AM
Apple isn't a bank where making more money is their business.

Apple has more of a responsibility given their impact on society as a innovative tech company, when you design a iphone, ipad, ipod you should consider the ethics of design, this is apple this isn't some small Chinese company trying to get out of bankruptcy by selling cheap crap.

Apple built their reputation on what others didn't do! That is the apple that I loved. Do you want to see apple turn into a windows or equivalent.

BS. Making money is Apple's business. Where do you think the dollars for innovation come from, goodwill.

----------

Exactly! I concreted my theory that apple has become predominantly about money and market share when the retina Macbook was released.

It's pretty disgusting IMO as I would have thought apple was design conscious towards environmental issues. As it turns out they were just using the whole thing as leverage for marketing and pushing sales as being "environmentally conscious" was trending. They worked around that and used it as their sales key.

Apples intentions are becoming more apparent as time goes on, first the macbook airs (which wasn't a bad idea) then the retina MBP designs... again, focusing on trends to maximize sales and furthermore charging unjustifiable prices for initial BTO upgrades.

Congrats apple, turns out you don't care for the environment... or anything else but power, money and market share.

I look forward to seeing you on the news in front of Cupertino with an environmental protest sign.

ixodes
Jul 7, 2012, 05:49 AM
As I mentioned in a thread a few weeks ago, as the MBPr construction was revealed, this is an example of the incredible hypocrisy & arrogance of Apple.

I'm such a die hard Apple enthusiast, I love their laptops, their OS, and so much more.

Yet it's stunts like this that are so repulsive.

Not that long ago, one of the centerpieces of their ad campaign was them bragging about being the greenest, most environmentally responsible manufacturer of laptops & iToyz.

Only Apple could get away with such bad behavior with little or no push back from customers & the press.

Apple Inc, the masters of smoke & mirrors hype, hypocritical attacks on opponents, and legal lunacy. If they had a conscience & cared, they'd be embarrassed.

Yet with Apples cult like followers, and Al Gores backing perhaps they'll win an award for their new disclosures :eek:

Northgrove
Jul 7, 2012, 06:13 AM
From reading the article, the problem isn't that the kit can't be recycled; it's that it can't be recycled by just anybody.

I suspect that Apple just wants all its unwanted kit returned to them. They can take the parts and reuse them in new/refurbished products. I also think that they're trying to avoid a future where folk buy a new thin and shiny laptop that is actually made up of components salvaged from dumped Apple stuff.

No matter how much folk here bang on about being able to open up their laptops and change this and upgrade that, the vast majority of machines are never opened, never upgraded and dumped in a landfill when a better model comes out.

So I don't have a problem with Apple pulling out of this scheme, but they have to have something better to replace it with, and with an incentive for people to actually use it.

Hmm, I dunno... Such a system of recycling would seem to become more closed and under less scrutiny. "Send them to us, we'll take care of it". Sure takes a lot of confidence in their brand to believe they'll spend a ton of resources they didn't need to spend before to recycle their own new, improved hard-to-recycle computers!

I'm pretty sure it's in the best interests of the environment to allow any organization to recycle the machines, and that more users will care for upgrading their computers than worry about 1-2mm added in thickness, even despite only a minority upgrading.

I think Apple has crossed a thickness line here. They're now even hurting their brand as an environmentally-friendly designer. This implies that Apple believes that a typical Apple customer will choose thin computers over more environmentally sound competitors. This strategy will work if Apple is correct.

Lepton
Jul 7, 2012, 06:22 AM
This seems very un-Apple like.

numlock
Jul 7, 2012, 06:29 AM
From reading the article, the problem isn't that the kit can't be recycled; it's that it can't be recycled by just anybody.

I suspect that Apple just wants all its unwanted kit returned to them. They can take the parts and reuse them in new/refurbished products. I also think that they're trying to avoid a future where folk buy a new thin and shiny laptop that is actually made up of components salvaged from dumped Apple stuff.

No matter how much folk here bang on about being able to open up their laptops and change this and upgrade that, the vast majority of machines are never opened, never upgraded and dumped in a landfill when a better model comes out.

So I don't have a problem with Apple pulling out of this scheme, but they have to have something better to replace it with, and with an incentive for people to actually use it.

how does that work for international users specifically those without an official apple store?

btw is your lifestory of a modern computer device fact and based on something or fiction designed to suit apple?

whooleytoo
Jul 7, 2012, 06:33 AM
So lets turn this around...

Why can't EPEAT require their recyclers to upgrade their tools and machines so they can handle these new sets of computers/tablets/smartphones, etc. from Apple???

I think it's a fair question.

I'd guess because upgrading/retooling/retraining would require more money, and prohibitively so if different manufacturers keep changing their build processes in myriad different ways. 'Recycling' seems to be almost a dirty word among many here; so adding to the cost (or damaging the cost-effectiveness) of recycling isn't a good idea.

Plus - even if they wanted to - it might not be as easy as you think. The iFixit crew, who have a LOT of experience in this, struggled to disassemble the rMBP. It took them a day to get the battery out and they couldn't do it without puncturing it and leaking its contents. It's very hard to blame EPEAT for this.

Poisednoise
Jul 7, 2012, 06:37 AM
Don't forget that the WEEE directive in the EU still requires all of this stuff to be recyclable, and for the onus to be on the manufacturer to take it back to do so, free of charge. The fact that you need a special screwdriver to do so should not invalidate the environmental credits of a product in my opinion.

Personally I think EPEAT need to update their standards, and I suspect that is the opinion of Apple also: I would not be surprised if EPEAT alter their standard in the medium term to reflect this.

radiogoober
Jul 7, 2012, 06:51 AM
Exactly. So many Apple fans will demonize EPEAT over this in an attempt to brush over what a lame move by Apple this is. The stereotype that Mac users are nothing but liberals who pretend to care about social and environmental issues but deep down really don't care at all is validated by this move on Apple's part. Bypassing EPEAT just to have a new barely thinner laptop to release each year to please the crowds is not really the kind of company I like to do business with.

Then go buy a crappy laptop with Windows on it.

This pseudo-outrage over useless and hindering environmental standards is pathetic. Get a life you hippy liberals.

----------

He heard the news on his macbook whilst riding around in his Chevy Suburban.

Yup. Then he got on his private jet and flew somewhere. Al Gore is a blithering idiot. He "cares about global warming", but doesn't practice what he preaches. We can leave the rest of that for another thread.

By the way, the posts in this thread are nauseating. Most of you write how concerned you are about the environment or whatever, and how upset with Apple you are because they don't want to be forced to make crappier products just to adhere to a crappy guideline, but I bet every single last one of you will continue to buy their products, bc they are infinitely better than anything else on the market. And why are they better? One reason is that they don't feel compelled to,please or adhere stupid guidelines.

----------

Don't forget that the WEEE directive in the EU still requires all of this stuff to be recyclable, and for the onus to be on the manufacturer to take it back to do so, free of charge. The fact that you need a special screwdriver to do so should not invalidate the environmental credits of a product in my opinion.

Personally I think EPEAT need to update their standards, and I suspect that is the opinion of Apple also: I would not be surprised if EPEAT alter their standard in the medium term to reflect this.

I think it's hilarious you are being down-voted because you made a perfectly valid point.

gnasher729
Jul 7, 2012, 06:51 AM
how does that work for international users specifically those without an official apple store?

You do't need a store. Apple will send you a box for your Mac, postage paid, and you send it in. That's what they do today.


I have been back on windows for almost 3 years. I bought a 2011 macbook but returned it. And I use and prefer android currently.

Well, good on you mate. I'm sure that windows computer of yours has been built according to the highest environmental standards, by happy workers that are served a cup of tea every hour and sing happy praises of their employer, and when you get rid of it all the components will be nicely recycled and turned into android phones. I am just wondering what makes you post here.

makitango
Jul 7, 2012, 06:59 AM
Pretty sad moment and ironic to be honest. Speaking about all-respronsible and environmental with the new campus, they now just glue things together so that customers cannot repair their products outside the warranty bracket so they buy and waste even more.

I'm not really an environmentalist, but as far as this goes, this has also been the reason I did not go for the rMBP. Not that this planet suffers enough from us already, we need to **** it up everywhere we can.

numlock
Jul 7, 2012, 07:05 AM
You do't need a store. Apple will send you a box for your Mac, postage paid, and you send it in. That's what they do today.


i happen to live in a place thats about 3 hours flight from the nearest apple store. does that still apply?

and having to put something as big and heavy as an imac, mac pro (if apple still knows those two products) and a display dosent that kinda negate the environmental impact of recycling?

tigres
Jul 7, 2012, 07:09 AM
This may affect their edu sales. My community purchases laptops that adhere to the EPEAT standard.

Is it strictly the glued battery that is forcing the change? Surely they can swiftly mod that with some screws instead; no?

I don't really follow this EPEAT standard too much other than just recently seeing our city govt article in the paper praising its purchasing standards related to the "go green" motto.

Curious move on this should it have some edu or govt holdouts from large sales. IDK if it will, just wondering.

Poisednoise
Jul 7, 2012, 07:14 AM
Pretty sad moment and ironic to be honest. Speaking about all-respronsible and environmental with the new campus, they now just glue things together so that customers cannot repair their products outside the warranty bracket so they buy and waste even more.

Even assuming that this is the rationale behind the glue (and I'm not saying it isn't) I still don't see what the environmental issue is: Apple take the product back, disassemble it themselves and reuse/recycle all components as required by law in the EU. Surely that is all any true environmentalist could wish for?

If the argument is that they're harder for us to repair/upgrade ourselves, then I agree (as someone who has always upgraded both the hard drive and the memory in his laptops to extend their lives) that's a significant minus point in Apple's current direction. But that's not an environmental point: if anything it's the opposite. As I understand it in the EU (which is where currently I reside) if I personally upgrade the memory or hard drive, then it's my responsibility to dispose of the old parts. If I happen to live in a conurbation where they provide recycling for that free of charge, great. Otherwise, landfill... Whereas if it's not easily upgradable, then I take the entire thing back to Apple when I buy a new machine, and they reuse/recycle the lot. I'm not going to get into the whole "energy of recycling" calculation, because I don't have enough information for this, and there are way too many variables, but if you're looking at this purely from an environmental perspective, and in particular at keeping stuff out of landfill, then the direction Apple is taking in design of its latest products is a good one.

I get the sense many people here are shoehorning the environmental argument to fit with their own prejudice against something they can't upgrade. I share your frustration about this element of the current designs, but let's not kid ourselves that this frustration has anything at all to do with saving the environment.

Danoc
Jul 7, 2012, 07:19 AM
Where do you see, guys, that Apple is removing its environment policy?

It's still there: http://images.apple.com/environment/reports/docs/MacBookPro_Retina_Product_Environmental_Report_June2012.pdf

http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/environment/

They just say they are not going to follow EPEAT standards.

Mr. Gates
Jul 7, 2012, 07:23 AM
But is is safe to mulch down old Foxcon workers into soilent green ?

Abazigal
Jul 7, 2012, 07:33 AM
So apple gets bad press for making computers that last 5 years (minimum) which are hard to recycle, but it is okay for peope to build their own desktops and replace it every year?

Which is more wasteful? :rolleyes:

Thunderhawks
Jul 7, 2012, 07:34 AM
To be honest, I'm a little disappointed in apple. I always appreciated the fact that these computers were highly recyclable and better on the environment than most electronics now a days. I figured apple would somehow develop a way to get these batteries off safely so they can be recycled.

If this is the way technology is going to become, getting smaller and lighter but less conscious about the world we live in then I'm not for it.:(

This needs to be judged one product at a time.

Some are more recyclable than others.

Excluding iphones and ipads is wrong. There are too many millions (and more to come) out there to just let that go.

Since Apple "replaces" batteries for many devices one should assume that these dead batteries will be recycled.

You can also recycle your old Apple electronics via their website. I don't see why they wouldn't include newer generations of products.

When my local waste station has a once a year electronics collection for residents, the sheer amount of devices is amazing.
They range from printers to TVs, CD DVD players, hard drives to computers of all brands.

I don't trust that anybody "recycles" this mix of products.

So, one alternative is to use components which harm the environment the least.

There are too many details to go into and this is not only an Apple problem.

Until everybody turns in their electronics stuff (A lot of people don't) and turning them in is FREE we will have this mounting problem.

With or without EPEAT!

If the electronics industry would develop a deposit type system it would provide incentives to bring the stuff for recycling.

Say you buy a TV and the first buyer gets charged a $ 50 deposit, which gets refunded when the TV is being turned in to be recycled.

At least there is an incentive for somebody.

Just like we see homeless collecting beer bottles and beer, soda cans etc. to cash in the deposit, I can imagine that being a new source to make money.

As an alternate solution if laws get passed that manufacturers have to take back their products for free, it will change their product development to keep the costs of recycling down.

For those wanting to knock Apple at all costs, assume they are working on it.

Too high a profile company to assume they'll just let it go.

Thiemo
Jul 7, 2012, 07:36 AM
The sad thing is: Apple is going to sell loads and loads of rMBP! Most consumers will just love it, they just don't care about recyclability or serviceability. The rMBP will probably become the most successful notebook Apple has ever made. See iPhone.

Piggie
Jul 7, 2012, 07:40 AM
So apple gets bad press for making computers that last 5 years (minimum) which are hard to recycle, but it is okay for peope to build their own desktops and replace it every year?

Which is more wasteful? :rolleyes:

Who builds and replaces desktops every year?

Desktops go on and on for many many years, often passed down the line to others when the original person upgrades.

I'd say typical windows desktops are the most environmentally friendly computers.

You may use the same case, the same monitor, the same hard drive, perhaps DVD drive also, just replacing your Mboard, CPU, Ram and Graphics card.

These old items you sell on to others who reuse them in their lower spec machines until the item gets too old be be useful and then at the end of it's life you really just have a base circuit board, perhaps with a heatsink screwed on that can be removed and stripped.

How much easier of green could you possibly have than this scenario?

gnasher729
Jul 7, 2012, 07:45 AM
i happen to live in a place thats about 3 hours flight from the nearest apple store. does that still apply?

Instead of asking, why don't you just go to store.apple.com, select your country, and search for "recycling"? And I don't know what you are thinking, but what does the distance to the nearest Apple store have to do with a box that is sent through the mail?

genovelle
Jul 7, 2012, 07:46 AM
Exactly! I concreted my theory that apple has become predominantly about money and market share when the retina Macbook was released.

It's pretty disgusting IMO as I would have thought apple was design conscious towards environmental issues. As it turns out they were just using the whole thing as leverage for marketing and pushing sales as being "environmentally conscious" was trending. They worked around that and used it as their sales key.

Apples intentions are becoming more apparent as time goes on, first the macbook airs (which wasn't a bad idea) then the retina MBP designs... again, focusing on trends to maximize sales and furthermore charging unjustifiable prices for initial BTO upgrades.

Congrats apple, turns out you don't care for the environment... or anything else but power, money and market share.
Didn't Apple begin their own recycling program? So making it easy for companies to figure out what they are doing is not important since they can handle recycling themselves. Another view is that since their products tend not to be throw aways after 1 year because they are worthless like their competitors there may not be as much of a need so they can handle the demand for recycling.

neversink
Jul 7, 2012, 07:48 AM
Apple built their reputation on what others didn't do! That is the apple that I loved. Do you want to see apple turn into a windows or equivalent.

Unfortunately, it seems that this is what is happening.... However, a much more sophisticated windows or equivalent. We have geniuses behind the bar.

leukotriene
Jul 7, 2012, 07:49 AM
Ok let's all just breathe for a second! Stop hyperventilating!

What if Apple's reasoning is that all Macs should be returned back to Apple for recycling, and Apple themselves will disassemble the computer for proper recycling?

If you read carefully, the EPEAT specifies "ďExternal enclosures, chassis, and electronic subassemblies shall be removable with commonly available tools or by hand.Ē (emphasis mine)

Perhaps Apple is just admitting that they can't adhere to this specification any longer because it will require an Apple employee using nonstandard and not commonly available tools to disassemble for recycling? I don't think Apple is saying "screw recycling!", I think they're saying "it takes an special tools to recycle this MacBook, and while we will happily do that for you, we can no longer certify it with EPEAT".

[prepares for massive downvoting]

GeeEllBee
Jul 7, 2012, 07:51 AM
Who cares about the safety of the planet, I just want my computer to be a few millimeters thinner!

Yes Yes and YES :D
Seriously now, has Apple gone Republican? Please say it ain't so. Seriously too and all that said, I have no doubt Apple will soon announce a recycling plan of their own. Apple knows better than to alienate a good segment of their audience (meaning liberals and progressives). They are not stupid, you know.

leukotriene
Jul 7, 2012, 07:53 AM
Even assuming that this is the rationale behind the glue (and I'm not saying it isn't) I still don't see what the environmental issue is: Apple take the product back, disassemble it themselves and reuse/recycle all components as required by law in the EU. Surely that is all any true environmentalist could wish for?

If the argument is that they're harder for us to repair/upgrade ourselves, then I agree (as someone who has always upgraded both the hard drive and the memory in his laptops to extend their lives) that's a significant minus point in Apple's current direction. But that's not an environmental point: if anything it's the opposite. As I understand it in the EU (which is where currently I reside) if I personally upgrade the memory or hard drive, then it's my responsibility to dispose of the old parts. If I happen to live in a conurbation where they provide recycling for that free of charge, great. Otherwise, landfill... Whereas if it's not easily upgradable, then I take the entire thing back to Apple when I buy a new machine, and they reuse/recycle the lot. I'm not going to get into the whole "energy of recycling" calculation, because I don't have enough information for this, and there are way too many variables, but if you're looking at this purely from an environmental perspective, and in particular at keeping stuff out of landfill, then the direction Apple is taking in design of its latest products is a good one.

I get the sense many people here are shoehorning the environmental argument to fit with their own prejudice against something they can't upgrade. I share your frustration about this element of the current designs, but let's not kid ourselves that this frustration has anything at all to do with saving the environment.


You made a really good point there: if people are expecting a computer to be user-upgradable, that probably leads to more toxic waste as regular people are much less likely to properly dispose of computer parts. Whereas, like it or not, a non-user serviceable Mac like the retina MacBook Pro discourages that completely. You could make a serious argument that retina MacBook Pro is better for the environment.

neversink
Jul 7, 2012, 07:54 AM
Another view is that since their products tend not to be throw aways after 1 year because they are worthless like their competitors there may not be as much of a need so they can handle the demand for recycling.

That's a pretty lame view.. What you are saying is that there is no need to recycle after three or four or five or even ten years??? That's not true at all. Personally, I think all these products should last at least ten years.

I'm tired of all the blind apologists for Apple. Apple is the world's largest corporation. Why shouldn't people question their integrity and their stewardship of the environment. Yes we love their computers and other products, but don't we also cherish our fresh air, and clean water. To me, the health of our earth is more important than an iPad and iPhone and an iMac....

radiogoober
Jul 7, 2012, 07:54 AM
So apple gets bad press for making computers that last 5 years (minimum) which are hard to recycle, but it is okay for peope to build their own desktops and replace it every year?

Which is more wasteful? :rolleyes:

How dare you point out that almost every tree-hugging hippie is a hypocrite? :)

leukotriene
Jul 7, 2012, 08:01 AM
This may affect their edu sales. My community purchases laptops that adhere to the EPEAT standard.

Is it strictly the glued battery that is forcing the change? Surely they can swiftly mod that with some screws instead; no?

I don't really follow this EPEAT standard too much other than just recently seeing our city govt article in the paper praising its purchasing standards related to the "go green" motto.

Curious move on this should it have some edu or govt holdouts from large sales. IDK if it will, just wondering.

I agree that it may affect Mac sales to edu sites (will it affect iPad sales? I don't know). But we should all remember (I'm not picking on you) that EPEAT is not a government agency; it's a private organization with very good intentions and very good results. But what if technology innovation moves so fast that EPEAT standards can't keep up? What if the next step is Apple introducing their own EPEAT-like set of standards that their Macs adhere to, with the stipulation that Apple themselves will go to the edu sites to properly dispose of the Mac computers?

My point is that while I expect many edu sites to reject Apples actions here, I can foresee Apple introducing a parallel set of standards just for their macs and convincing edu sites to consider that to be on the same level of legitimacy as EPEAT.

lucasmonger
Jul 7, 2012, 08:07 AM
Seriously, how many Dell or HP owners actually open up their laptops and replace RAM, increase the size of their hard drives, or replace their batteries? Sure, the computer geeks will do it because they enjoy it, but most companies automatically replace their PCs every 3 years on a lease and don't even think about interim upgrades. Most regular people get a virus and rather than spend money having the Geek Squad or local teenager rebuild their computer, they just buy another one that's newer and faster anyway.

As a recent HP EliteBook user who scoffed at the supposedly small form factor laptop where the display alone was about as thick as the entire MacBook Air and they strapped on a battery that protruded out the back, I'm all in on Apple's new rMBP and MBA direction (just bought a MBA with a core i7 Ivy Bridge). The trick is to bump up the processor and RAM to the next price point (not the highest that really breaks the bank) and you'll be set with that laptop for 5+ years.

I've been an Apple user for a long time.

I will not be buying a "Retina" MacBook Pro solely because I do not agree with the direction those machines are heading in. If Apple continues to depreciate existing hardware in favour for machines that are literally held together with glue, then I will never buy an Apple laptop again.

There's a dozen ways in which Apple could have gone about the assembly of these machines differently, and left the lithium packs easily removable and serviceable. But they didn't- they sprang for the cheapest and fastest way of assembling the machine and covered the whole thing up with a healthy coating of "because we wanted to make it thinner" marketing ********.

These machines are disposable, plain and simple- the same way the iPad 2 is. They were never designed to be serviced, they were designed to fail and be replaced. You absolutely 100% have to purchase Applecare with the rMBP because you'd have to be insane not to- if your battery goes, the chassis is toast. If a single bit in your 16GB of main memory (note that the rMBP RAM is not ECC) goes, the logic board is toast. If your iSight breaks, your entire monitor is toast.

I'm all for thinner and lighter systems, but the rMBP has simply gone too far. And that's disappointing. And for the first time in a long time, I'm actually siding with the environmentalists on this one- I hope Apple feels the burn of their actions, and that this actually hurts them in the long run.

Only then will they realize how jaw-droppingly retarded building systems like this actually is, and we might get new models that are only marginally thicker (less then a millimetre) and actually serviceable.

-SC

radiogoober
Jul 7, 2012, 08:17 AM
All this fake environmental outrage is just like the OWS protesters protesting against big corporations, using their iPhones, MacBooks, etc. Just absolutely ridiculous. One of the famous moronic rappers went down there wearing like $10,000 worth of corporate product pretending to support those lazy idiots.

AaronEdwards
Jul 7, 2012, 08:22 AM
My point is that while I expect many edu sites to reject Apples actions here, I can foresee Apple introducing a parallel set of standards just for their macs and convincing edu sites to consider that to be on the same level of legitimacy as EPEAT.

Something like Rainforest Alliance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainforest_Alliance) for computers and electronic equipment?

bedifferent
Jul 7, 2012, 08:27 AM
As a very eco-conscious individual, I am somewhat alarmed by this news. However, I would like more facts. Does "EPEAT" mean that the systems must be recyclable by owners or in general? If the electronic device can be recycled by Apple or anyone aside from the general consumer, then fine, just as long as e-waste is not an issue.

One of the reasons I prefer Apple devices is Ive's insistence on recyclable materials such as aluminum (which serves as an excellent cooling agent) and glass, as well as the elimination of mercury and arsenic from their materials.

Apple does take in old devices in their recycling program. However, what do they do with devices that "EPEAT" deems unfit?

Poisednoise
Jul 7, 2012, 08:31 AM
While I'm not wishing to devalue EPEAT in any sense, I do question their claim on their website to be the "definitive global registry for greener electronics" [my emphasis]. As far as I can see, only one country outside of the US participates (Singapore).

Compare that to the EU, which has law in place already, actually requiring manufacturers of not only electronic devices, but pretty much anything (household appliances, cars) to ensure that virtually the entire thing can and will be reused/recycled, by the original manufacturer. Apple already adheres to this - they have to - and in many cases pay you for the return of the products. I got £80 for the return of my iPhone 3G when I upgraded to the 4. I'm afraid EPEAT is behind the curve here - that's not to say it's a good initiative, but to claim to be the "definitive global registry" paints a rather insular view of the globe in my opinion, given that in fact it's almost exclusively a US list.

nex4k
Jul 7, 2012, 08:43 AM
The sad thing is: Apple is going to sell loads and loads of rMBP! Most consumers will just love it, they just don't care about recyclability or serviceability. The rMBP will probably become the most successful notebook Apple has ever made. See iPhone.

As much as I agree to this, I still hope this is not going to happen, the average consumer finally gets conscious about all the **** going on, and forces Apple to go back to the "good" side by simply not buying.

Apple's become less and less shiny for me starting with Lion and continuing with Steve's death, FCP X, and the rMBP (plus them dropping the 17" model).
I hope Apple will turn around again.
There is no competitor on the market that comes even close to what I currently have set up in my 10.6 Mac environment, so I can't just switch to another brand, but also I can't stay up-to-date with the good crop of the latest "innovations" because of moralic reasons, and that's really hard for a tech enthusiast like me. I could rip myself apart.

thejadedmonkey
Jul 7, 2012, 08:44 AM
I wouldn't get all up in arms here yet.

Go do some searching on their website and see who else is missing.

That would be most ultra books and some newer laptops.

http://ww2.epeat.net/searchoptions.aspx

I did. I just looked up the Dell ultrabook, and it has a silver rating.

On the bottom of every dell product spec page is something that looks like this:Regulatory Model: P15F
Regulatory Type: P15F001
Energy Star 5.0
EPEAT Gold
Product Safety, EMC and Environmental Datasheets
Dell Regulatory Compliance Home Page
Dell and the Environment

The EPEAT Gold is the recyclability rating, which Apple is no longer participating in. Asus, Toshiba, HP, etc, all participate in this.

Someone mentioned the Apple environment page for the RMPB. They go on for a few paragraphs on things like mobile GPU's which are less power hungry, and LED backlit displays which have been industry standard for years. They end with the use of aluminum in their computers, which while nice, doesn't make them inherently better than a Dell with a plastic shell over a steel interior.

baruch
Jul 7, 2012, 08:51 AM
...we see that corporations care more about profit than about the planet. This is a stupid shortsighted move by Apple, very disappointing. I haven't bought any new Apple products in a long time and am unlikely to do so. Apple...this is you being a bad neighbor, a bad part of the global community.

Prof.
Jul 7, 2012, 09:00 AM
I find this to be really sad. I consider myself to be [somewhat] environmentally friendly (I get upset with my family members when they throw garbage in the recycling bags I put out in my apartment lol), so knowing my computer company of choice will no longer take huge strides to make products safe for the Earth... that's just upsetting. Thankfully my 2012 15" uMBP meets the highest of standards. :)

racer1441
Jul 7, 2012, 09:04 AM
It depends on how strong this organization's power is. I have honestly never heard of EPEAT before, so I don't know how great the risk of saying "@#$% you" to them is.

Pretty sure they don't have the influence and money of apple, so not a problem.

Poisednoise
Jul 7, 2012, 09:10 AM
Someone mentioned the Apple environment page for the RMPB. They go on for a few paragraphs on things like mobile GPU's which are less power hungry, and LED backlit displays which have been industry standard for years. They end with the use of aluminum in their computers, which while nice, doesn't make them inherently better than a Dell with a plastic shell over a steel interior.

It does if they recycle it. Which they do.

Major.Robto
Jul 7, 2012, 09:12 AM
all of you wanted smaller systems and having user removable parts causes weight gain and just being bigger.

They are still replaceable, and apple does not offer a bad deal to replace it.

I can not see why you guys care so much. look at other super ultra thin laptops, they also have no user serviable batt. SO whats the big deal?

If you drop your IOS device. there is no crap flying around the room.

If I drop my current phone the batt,and sim will both pop out. Thats annoying.. I had to buy a sim card because I could not find mine after it flue out.

To be honest. I like not haveing user replaceable parts. Less can go wrong.

fuel1411
Jul 7, 2012, 09:13 AM
Apple still cares about the environment as evidenced by their page: http://www.apple.com/environment/ and they have consistently tried to "reduce their footprint" and bring down the amounts of harmful materials in their computers. Them not being a part of EPEAT and saying they dont care about the environment is as foolish as some of my friends not being friends with me on facebook and me stating that "oh you're not my friend!?" (http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/269228/so-im-not-your-friend-then)

Aside from all that, Apple's computers come apart really really easily (if you know what you are doing and can follow directions in your language) - i've torn apart not a few Macbook Pros (http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown) it's like a chilton's for a computer.

Oh well, whatever. Apple is still awesome and environmentally awesome...they dont need EPEAT to tell them that they are!

hobo.hopkins
Jul 7, 2012, 09:13 AM
This isn't stopping them from using environmentally-friendly materials (like aluminium and glass), so it isn't too big a deal. They already weren't being very compliant if easy disassembly was a requirement.

ReallyBigFeet
Jul 7, 2012, 09:17 AM
To be honest, I'm a little disappointed in apple. I always appreciated the fact that these computers were highly recyclable and better on the environment than most electronics now a days. I figured apple would somehow develop a way to get these batteries off safely so they can be recycled.

If this is the way technology is going to become, getting smaller and lighter but less conscious about the world we live in then I'm not for it.:(

Yes I find this a very poor reflection on the ethos statement of Apple products. Why Apple did it is clearly due to a "we don't care, design trumps environmental concerns" mindset.

Abazigal
Jul 7, 2012, 09:27 AM
I don't understand - so just because apple solders on the ram and glues the battery, that suddenly renders the entire laptop unrecyclable? There is no way it can be broken down into its individual parts to be reused or smelted down? :confused:

So yeah, it may take a little extra effort, that there is a great difference between harder to recycle, and can't be recycled at all.

JohnDoe98
Jul 7, 2012, 09:34 AM
I don't understand - so just because apple solders on the ram and glues the battery, that suddenly renders the entire laptop unrecyclable? There is no way it can be broken down into its individual parts to be reused or smelted down? :confused:

So yeah, it may take a little extra effort, that there is a great difference between harder to recycle, and can't be recycled at all.

Plus, what no one is mentioning is removable batteries tend to have higher failure rates. The number one cause of a battery going bad is fastener puncturing. Gluing the batteries helps to prevent that. So at the end of the day what's better for the environment, glued batteries that are harder to repair/replace/disassemble, or removable ones that have higher failure rates and require more batteries to be produced?

Given just how detrimental batteries are on the environment in the first place, you'd think the environmental standards would begin to take notice of this issue.

And the screen is fused to the enclosure but it uses one less ply of glass. I guess it's just better to add more and more material in the designs, that's surely very good for the environment too. I'm getting the growing sense the way people are looking at this is entirely backwards. I don't think screws and disassembly should be the primary factor but what types of materials and in what quantities they are needed to produce these machines.

darkplanets
Jul 7, 2012, 09:36 AM
I really don't see this as an issue... I mean all they did was glue a battery and solder some ram in. If you're going to recycle the laptop anyways, you sure as **** don't care about the display cable under the battery or destroying the mobo. It's not like the laptop is indestructible or unaccessible by any means -- you can buy their screw set and open it up, just like any laptop. I fail to see why it's such a big deal.

Worst case scenario you'd have to use acetone or IPA to remove the battery. The travesty.

thelaw986
Jul 7, 2012, 09:37 AM
This is disappointing news. Electronics manufacturers should take environmental factors and impact into mind when designing products since most of those products will be in landfills after a couple years. But, one can hope that in the future, Apple will come up with a way to make products that can again be more recyclable...

r.harris1
Jul 7, 2012, 09:39 AM
Exactly. So many Apple fans will demonize EPEAT over this in an attempt to brush over what a lame move by Apple this is. The stereotype that Mac users are nothing but liberals who pretend to care about social and environmental issues but deep down really don't care at all is validated by this move on Apple's part. Bypassing EPEAT just to have a new barely thinner laptop to release each year to please the crowds is not really the kind of company I like to do business with.

What kind of company do you like to do business with? Apple, like every company, is interested in profit, just to be clear. They're also interested in pushing design limits, which is difficult to do with certification bodies breathing down your neck. EPEAT is only one way to solve problems and out of this will likely come other ways to disassemble and recycle. And then a new certification body :D

Always follow the money. Certification bodies are just as political and money grubbing as any corporation on the planet so any thought that EPEAT is a benign consortium of tree loving entities would be misguided. Green sells. No company would be part of the very expensive certification process if they didn't think they'd get a lot of cash from it by increased sales. Too, iFixit (and I like what they do) have a money interest selling parts to repair your Macs/iDevices. Can't do that at this time with any part of the rMBP. So they lose out.

Randomoneh
Jul 7, 2012, 09:42 AM
From now on, Apple is to be blamed for global warming. It's obvious they are deniers. /s

AaronEdwards
Jul 7, 2012, 09:44 AM
Plus, what no one is mentioning is removable batteries tend to have higher failure rates. The number one cause of a battery going bad is fastener puncturing. Gluing the batteries helps to prevent that. So at the end of the day what's better for the environment, glued batteries that are harder to repair/replace/disassemble, or removable ones that have higher failure rates and require more batteries to be produced?

Given just how detrimental batteries are on the environment in the first place, you'd think the environmental standards would begin to take notice of this issue.

Do you have a link somewhere that shows that removable batteries have higher failure rates than glued batteries? That gluing is better than using screws?

iFixit had problems removing the battery from the new iPad without puncturing it. But that I guess is only a problem for whoever has to disassemble it. Too bad that person doesn't have time to appreciate the design...

----

Does anyone know to which third world countries Apple send their hardware to be disassembled?

r.harris1
Jul 7, 2012, 09:44 AM
This is disappointing news. Electronics manufacturers should take environmental factors and impact into mind when designing products since most of those products will be in landfills after a couple years. But, one can hope that in the future, Apple will come up with a way to make products that can again be more recyclable...

Apple has a recycling program on their products so this is already the case. Removing themselves from this certification process just highlights the fact that it is difficult for third parties to do so with standard tools on the newer bodies. Not sure this means as much as is being portrayed.

JohnDoe98
Jul 7, 2012, 09:45 AM
This is disappointing news. Electronics manufacturers should take environmental factors and impact into mind when designing products since most of those products will be in landfills after a couple years. But, one can hope that in the future, Apple will come up with a way to make products that can again be more recyclable...

How do you know they didn't take that into account? What if their environmental philosophy disagrees on small issues like using standard tools and ease of disassembly from your favorite environmental group? I'm not saying Apple did take the environment into consideration, all I'm saying is we don't know what standards and metrics they took into account.

MuppetGate
Jul 7, 2012, 09:47 AM
how does that work for international users specifically those without an official apple store?

I'm not sure to be honest. I guess what we need is some kind of global computer network (an internet, if you like) where Apple and other computer companies could set up some kind of shop with some kind of recycling section. Then they could offer some sort of incentive to persuade folk to send them old Apple kit (and yes, other bits of old kit too) and recycle it properly. Pie in the sky, but who knows. Maybe in my lifetime. (http://www.apple.com/uk/recycling/)

btw is your lifestory of a modern computer device fact and based on something or fiction designed to suit apple?

Actually, it's an opinion formed from working in IT (including sales and procurement) for twenty odd years. Machines are bought fully loaded, and four years later, no one is going to replace the hard drive and motherboard to get faster kit when what you can get for your money has drastically increased during those four years.

stevelam
Jul 7, 2012, 09:49 AM
Even assuming that this is the rationale behind the glue (and I'm not saying it isn't) I still don't see what the environmental issue is: Apple take the product back, disassemble it themselves and reuse/recycle all components as required by law in the EU. Surely that is all any true environmentalist could wish for?



well thats the thing. say the screen breaks in some way in the RMBP. according to people in the electronics recycling industry, they "have no way of recycling aluminum that has glass glued to it like Apple did with both this machine and the recent iPad. (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/06/opinion-apple-retina-displa)"

so it sounds like apple literally needs to replace the whole thing rather than be able to repair it.


If the argument is that they're harder for us to repair/upgrade ourselves, then I agree (as someone who has always upgraded both the hard drive and the memory in his laptops to extend their lives) that's a significant minus point in Apple's current direction. But that's not an environmental point: if anything it's the opposite. As I understand it in the EU (which is where currently I reside) if I personally upgrade the memory or hard drive, then it's my responsibility to dispose of the old parts. If I happen to live in a conurbation where they provide recycling for that free of charge, great. Otherwise, landfill... Whereas if it's not easily upgradable, then I take the entire thing back to Apple when I buy a new machine, and they reuse/recycle the lot. I'm not going to get into the whole "energy of recycling" calculation, because I don't have enough information for this, and there are way too many variables, but if you're looking at this purely from an environmental perspective, and in particular at keeping stuff out of landfill, then the direction Apple is taking in design of its latest products is a good one.

I get the sense many people here are shoehorning the environmental argument to fit with their own prejudice against something they can't upgrade. I share your frustration about this element of the current designs, but let's not kid ourselves that this frustration has anything at all to do with saving the environment.



i don't mind the RMBP being non-upgradeable as i'm sure its specs would last me for a long time. but i do mind that apple has turned into a tech company that purposely makes throw-a-away products.

good design isn't only about just making something look nice, especially for a leading company like apple.

gnasher729
Jul 7, 2012, 09:52 AM
...we see that corporations care more about profit than about the planet. This is a stupid shortsighted move by Apple, very disappointing. I haven't bought any new Apple products in a long time and am unlikely to do so. Apple...this is you being a bad neighbor, a bad part of the global community.

You would be right, except that you didn't actually read this article carefully. Certain Macintosh models will not be recyclable using just tools that you find in a DIY store. However, if you have a Macintosh that needs recycling, you just return it to Apple, and Apple surely has the right tools.

That's the only difference. Any Macintosh will be recycled if the owner can be bothered to return it to Apple. You don't even need to return it directly, you go to a website, fill in a form, and they send you a box to return it in.

<Some common sense>

You know they had to vote you down, didn't you? Can't have a reasonably argument interfere with people's rage.

sazivad
Jul 7, 2012, 09:53 AM
...What if Apple's reasoning is that all Macs should be returned back to Apple for recycling, and Apple themselves will disassemble the computer for proper recycling?...I don't think Apple is saying "screw recycling!", I think they're saying "it takes an special tools to recycle this MacBook, and while we will happily do that for you, we can no longer certify it with EPEAT."
I hope you're right.

MuppetGate
Jul 7, 2012, 09:56 AM
The trick is to bump up the processor and RAM to the next price point (not the highest that really breaks the bank) and you'll be set with that laptop for 5+ years.

Which is how most companies buy their laptops.

thejadedmonkey
Jul 7, 2012, 10:02 AM
It does if they recycle it. Which they do.

Another poster said (and I can't vouch for its accuracy) that by fusing the glass to the aluminum of the screen as is done in the iPad and MBPR, it becomes impossible to recycle.

Giuly
Jul 7, 2012, 10:04 AM
If you were to recycle those MacBooks, you could pry out the battery with standard tools, and the display is attached with Philips screws.

As LCD usually have a glass build-in, using that one as the front glass doesn't change anything in terms of recyclebility

That is, of course, if you define "recycling" as "taking it apart, then seperating the metal, plastic, glass, etc. and recycle those".
If you define it as "removing the LCD and battery from a broken MacBook and selling it on eBay", then you're SOL.

MuppetGate
Jul 7, 2012, 10:07 AM
i happen to live in a place thats about 3 hours flight from the nearest apple store. does that still apply?

What? :confused:

They don't need to land a plane at your house.

Go to the website, fill in the form.
Apple will send you a package.
Stick laptop in package.
Take package to post office.
Go home. Wait for Apple to grind your old machine into aluminium chips.
Job done.



and having to put something as big and heavy as an imac, mac pro (if apple still knows those two products) and a display dosent that kinda negate the environmental impact of recycling?

So what are you saying? People should 'upgrade' their displays now? What would that involve? Buying a new screen and trimming it to fit the existing casing?

JohnDoe98
Jul 7, 2012, 10:10 AM
Do you have a link somewhere that shows that removable batteries have higher failure rates than glued batteries? That gluing is better than using screws?

No I don't. But you'll note screws can get loose over time, allowing for the battery to start moving around in there.

haravikk
Jul 7, 2012, 10:13 AM
I suspect that Apple just wants all its unwanted kit returned to them.
If that were the case then it's still better for them to build machines that are semi-easy to disassemble, as glued components are no easier to take apart for Apple technicians than the average joe or a general purpose recycling centre worker.

Since everything's packed in so tight into Apple laptops it's hard to see glue is needed at all, some notches on the case, or spacers on whichever component goes in last (keyboard?) would be enough to hold everything in place. Clever use of spacers even has the added benefit that they can absorb heat for cooling systems to deal with.

johncrab
Jul 7, 2012, 10:16 AM
This is just another ISO scam. Back in the 90's EVERYTHING had to be ISO compliant and then the spec began changing almost weekly to force companies to re-certify under the revised spec. Then a cert made it impossible to change the font on the product label and even made it impossible to fix flaws when they were found. ISO died because everyone finally saw it for the scam it was. This is no different. I predict the spec will now shift to accommodate Apple because with a mega player like APple pulling out, they will start to lose others as well. They'll want Apple back. They'll bend.

Users who want Apple products will simply exempt them from this goofy requirement. You hate Wal-Mart but need a part for a lamp that is only sold there? You put on dark glasses and go to Wal-Mart to solve the problem. I'm glad Apple isn't going to waste its money certifying to this dumb spec.

MuppetGate
Jul 7, 2012, 10:17 AM
Another poster said (and I can't vouch for its accuracy) that by fusing the glass to the aluminum of the screen as is done in the iPad and MBPR, it becomes impossible to recycle.

I think 'accuracy' is part of the problem here. Again, fusing the glass to the aluminium would mean that it can't be dismantled without easily, which is one reason why Apple didn't submit this thing to the standards body.

But does this mean that that Apple can't recycle it if the machine is returned to them?

AaronEdwards
Jul 7, 2012, 10:26 AM
One major argument here is that Apple is going to do the recycle and that we shouldn't worry.

Does anyone making that argument actually know anything about Apple's recycling program?
Who, where, how, and then what?

JohnDoe98
Jul 7, 2012, 10:26 AM
If that were the case then it's still better for them to build machines that are semi-easy to disassemble, as glued components are no easier to take apart for Apple technicians than the average joe or a general purpose recycling centre worker.

Since everything's packed in so tight into Apple laptops it's hard to see glue is needed at all, some notches on the case, or spacers on whichever component goes in last (keyboard?) would be enough to hold everything in place. Clever use of spacers even has the added benefit that they can absorb heat for cooling systems to deal with.

Let's think the gluing situation through for a moment. Let's ask, why did Apple glue the batteries? Hypothesis 1: it is cheaper. Gluing the batteries in place is cheaper than screwing them into place.

So far so good. But let's keep thinking. When it comes time to actually service the battery, what is more expensive, having the Genius unscrew the battery and pop a new one in, or sending the entire case in to Apple's service depot, necessitating them to remove it with expensive equipment? Clearly, when it comes to servicing the machine, it is much cheaper to use screws. Any cost savings in using glue over screws is lost at the time of servicing the units. So why did Apple actually glue the darn batteries in? It seems to me hypothesis 1 cannot possibly be right and there were carefully thought out design reasons for going with glue. I already suggested some such reasons in an earlier post.

MuppetGate
Jul 7, 2012, 10:27 AM
If that were the case then it's still better for them to build machines that are semi-easy to disassemble, as glued components are no easier to take apart for Apple technicians than the average joe or a general purpose recycling centre worker.

Well, it doesn't have to be easy. It just has to get done. Since Apple is offering replacement batteries (http://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro/service/battery/) for the Macbook Retina then I assume that they have a way of removing them. If the machine can be recycled by the average joe, then how do you know that the average joe will do it properly. He could just take the machine apart and dump the battery in the bin.

Since everything's packed in so tight into Apple laptops it's hard to see glue is needed at all, some notches on the case, or spacers on whichever component goes in last (keyboard?) would be enough to hold everything in place. Clever use of spacers even has the added benefit that they can absorb heat for cooling systems to deal with.

Mmm. I don't think I'd be comfortable with a laptop where the components weren't securely fastened down. Far too easy to damage.

JohnDoe98
Jul 7, 2012, 10:29 AM
One major argument here is that Apple is going to do the recycle and that we shouldn't worry.

Does anyone making that argument actually know anything about Apple's recycling program?
Who, where, how, and then what?

Do you know those details regarding any recycling program? The typical users just takes for granted any recycling is better than none, in terms of environmental impact.

ArtOfWarfare
Jul 7, 2012, 10:39 AM
Apple is neither environmentally conscious nor greedy.

Apple is about making amazing products. Everything else is secondary. Aluminum and glass look great together. They happen to be easy to recycle. Therefor, for a few years, Apple's products were easy to recycle. Greenpeace was slamming on Apple for not having recyclable products, so Apple took the easy step of spending a minute in their keynote pointing out "No, you're full of crap, our products are highly recyclable."

If Apple is heading into a direction where their products are no longer recyclable, oh well. I always either hold onto my old Macs and give them odd tasks (IE, I have a G4 tower that acts as a media player in my entertainment center,) or I sell them to make a little of the money I spent on them back.

MuppetGate
Jul 7, 2012, 10:44 AM
Mmm. I don't think I'd be comfortable with a laptop where the components weren't securely fastened down. Far too easy to damage.

But that doesn't mean they shouldn't use screws and brackets.

AaronEdwards
Jul 7, 2012, 10:45 AM
Do you know those details regarding any recycling program? The typical users just takes for granted any recycling is better than none, in terms of environmental impact.

EPEAT states that products should by easily be disassembled with common tools.

Apple can no longer fulfill that and people are arguing that it's not a problem since Apple is doing it themselves.

And that's why I'm asking if anyone knows anything about Apple's own program to recycle.

JohnDoe98
Jul 7, 2012, 10:46 AM
But that doesn't mean they shouldn't use screws and brackets.

So what's your hypothesis, why did they use glue?

MuppetGate
Jul 7, 2012, 10:46 AM
Do you know those details regarding any recycling program? The typical users just takes for granted any recycling is better than none, in terms of environmental impact.

Good point. But do we know anything about any recycling programme? Just because the machine is easy to dismantle doesn't necessarily mean that the parts are disposed of properly.

But yes, I am making the assumption that Apple's recycling program is genuine.

JohnDoe98
Jul 7, 2012, 10:53 AM
EPEAT states that products should by easily be disassembled with common tools.

Apple can no longer fulfill that and people are arguing that it's not a problem since Apple is doing it themselves.

And that's why I'm asking if anyone knows anything about Apple's own program to recycle.

I understand that, what I don't understand is why that condition is there. What difference does it makes if the product can only be disassembled with uncommon tools? Yes less plants can recycle the machine. Fine. But if we are asking "how recyclable is the machine?", then so long as there is one place that can do the recycling, and so long as there is a program in place that makes it easy to get the laptops to that location, it seems to me nothing has changed in terms of the machine's environmental impact.

All Apple has to do is further advertise their recycling program. After all they give you a gift card when you return old products to them.

----------

Good point. But do we know anything about any recycling programme? Just because the machine is easy to dismantle doesn't necessarily mean that the parts are disposed of properly.

But yes, I am making the assumption that Apple's recycling program is genuine.

Same. And their plants obviously don't give a crap if the screws are atypical, or if they need to defuse the screens and unglue the batteries. So the fact that the EPEAT Registry requires that seems pretty arbitrary to me. If Apple didn't have a recycling program I could understand the complaint, as it is, I'm finding it hard to appreciate those conditions in the EPEAT certification.

MuppetGate
Jul 7, 2012, 10:57 AM
So what's your hypothesis, why did they use glue?

Mmm. A couple of possibilities:

By using glue they can shave the odd millimetre from the size of the machine.

If you use screws then people will either attempt to replace the battery themselves or take it to some back street dealer and have it done cheap, which can lead to this:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/3602097/ao-2011-149_final.pdf


The technical examinations found that a small metal screw had been misplaced in the battery bay of the mobile telephone; the screw puncturing the battery casing and causing an internal short circuit leading to heating and thermal runaway. It was probable that the screw had been misplaced during an earlier repair carried out on the telephone. That repair had not been conducted by an authorised service provider.
This investigation highlights the risks associated with the use of non-authorised agents for the repair of lithium battery-powered devices, and reinforces the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) recommendations that these devices should be carried in the cabin and not in checked- in baggage.

AaronEdwards
Jul 7, 2012, 10:57 AM
I understand that, what I don't understand is why that condition is there. What difference does it makes if the product can only be disassembled with uncommon tools? Yes less plants can recycle the machine. Fine. But if we are asking "how recyclable is the machine?", then so long as there is one place that can do the recycling, and so long as there is a program in place that makes it easy to get the laptops to that location, it seems to me nothing has changed in terms of the machine's environmental impact.

All Apple has to do is further advertise their recycling program. After they give you a gift card when you return old products to them.

If only company X is able to recycle their own products then what happens if company X ends up going out of business (rather unlikely in this case), decides to stop recycling their old products, or changes their recycling process into something worse?

What happens if a product from company X ends up at a recycling plant that can't disassemble those products?

JohnDoe98
Jul 7, 2012, 10:58 AM
One major argument here is that Apple is going to do the recycle and that we shouldn't worry.

Does anyone making that argument actually know anything about Apple's recycling program?
Who, where, how, and then what?

As per Apple's website:


Responsible recycling.
All e-waste collected by Apple-controlled voluntary and regulatory programs worldwide is processed in the region in which it was collected. Nothing is shipped overseas for recycling or disposal. Our recyclers must comply with all applicable health and safety laws, and Apple does not allow the use of prison labor at any stage of the recycling process. Nor do we allow the disposal of hazardous electronic waste in solid-waste landfills or incinerators.

Source:

http://www.apple.com/environment/

nagromme
Jul 7, 2012, 11:01 AM
So when Apple takes these back for recycling, do they give an evil laugh and chuck them in a landfill, or do they recycle them WITHOUT common tools?

If the latter, that’s just obvious and I’m OK with it. EPEAT is a worthy effort that Apple can’t participate in for reasons which bring actual benefits. Those benefits are worth it IF and only IF the products are still recyclable by non-EPEAT means.

What matters to me (even more than being being thin and light) is recyclability. Does it have to be EPEAT-certified recyclability? That I care much less about—a good thing, yes, but maybe not a necessary thing.

And if Apple stuff starts to sell well ;) then even non-Apple recycling companies will increasingly obtain the “non-common” tools to dismantle them more fully. The problem IS solvable.

I also care a lot about how long Macs last and stay useful, compared to the steady churn of PCs getting landfilled or (occasionally) recycled. None of my Macs have ever died, and even the ones with weak batteries from the 90s still run great on wall power.

gnasher729
Jul 7, 2012, 11:02 AM
One major argument here is that Apple is going to do the recycle and that we shouldn't worry.

Does anyone making that argument actually know anything about Apple's recycling program?
Who, where, how, and then what?

Go to the apple store website and enter "recycling" into the search box.


If only company X is able to recycle their own products then what happens if company X ends up going out of business (rather unlikely in this case), decides to stop recycling their old products, or changes their recycling process into something worse?

What happens if a product from company X ends up at a recycling plant that can't disassemble those products?

When Apple goes out of business, decides to stop recycling their old products, or makes their recycling process worse, you ought to complain here very loudly and will be rightfully applauded for your complaint. But I can't see any reason to assume that would be happening.

And let's say Dell has a place that recycles a million Dell computers, and they receive a stray Retina MBP. Common sense would be that they wait until they have a truckful of Macs, and then they send them all to Apple. And Apple does the same thing if they have a decent amount of Macs. More likely, they make use of the same recycling company which has they right tools for both companies.

And for a bit more common sense: Apple may use some non-common screws in places, which is the problem with EPEAT. But you don't really need to recycle the screws. They are tiny. So a recycler might, instead of unscrewing the screws which takes time, just drill them out.

JohnDoe98
Jul 7, 2012, 11:05 AM
Mmm. A couple of possibilities:

By using glue they can shave the odd millimetre from the size of the machine.

If you use screws then people will either attempt to replace the battery themselves or take it to some back street dealer and have it done cheap, which can lead to this:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/3602097/ao-2011-149_final.pdf

I like these reasons :)

----------

If only company X is able to recycle their own products then what happens if company X ends up going out of business (rather unlikely in this case), decides to stop recycling their old products, or changes their recycling process into something worse?

I'm not too worried of Apple going bankrupt or abandoning the recycling program for this generation of products.


What happens if a product from company X ends up at a recycling plant that can't disassemble those products?

The person who gets the product can then bring it home, send it to Apple, and get a gift card. Sounds like a lucky day to me.

MuppetGate
Jul 7, 2012, 11:06 AM
As per Apple's website:



Source:

http://www.apple.com/environment/

Nothing further, Your Honour.

JohnDoe98
Jul 7, 2012, 11:07 AM
So when Apple takes these back for recycling, do they give an evil laugh and chuck them in a landfill, or do they recycle them WITHOUT common tools?

If you believe Apple's claims on their website, they recycle over 70% of their products, compared to Dell and HP that do less than 20% each.

AaronEdwards
Jul 7, 2012, 11:07 AM
responsible recycling.
All e-waste collected by apple-controlled voluntary and regulatory programs worldwide is processed in the region in which it was collected. Nothing is shipped overseas for recycling or disposal. Our recyclers must comply with all applicable health and safety laws, and apple does not allow the use of prison labor at any stage of the recycling process. Nor do we allow the disposal of hazardous electronic waste in solid-waste landfills or incinerators.

Are these (http://www.apple.com/choose-your-country/) Apple's regions?
Applicable health and safety laws?
Would that be the health and safety laws in Puerto Rico?

DanteMann
Jul 7, 2012, 11:09 AM
Absolutely disgusting. Every company out there is out to make money. But in this day and age, it has never been more important for the big companies that sell massive number of units to be environmentally responsible. Considering Apple put themselves out there as a company that is environmentally friendly, this move is despicable. They've always been a company about form over function. Design at no cost. If it turns out that other companies can make thin laptops without losing EPEAT certification, then it will make this move all the more despicable. This company has no shame.

JohnDoe98
Jul 7, 2012, 11:18 AM
Are these (http://www.apple.com/choose-your-country/) Apple's regions?
Applicable health and safety laws?
Would that be the health and safety laws in Puerto Rico?

If the machine was handed in there, yes. You'd prefer they fly it to the US to recycle it? How much gas would that cost? I thought you cared about the environment. Perhaps you expect Apple to re-write Puerto Rico's legislation?

----------

Snip.

There's that pesky common-sense again. :mad:

MuppetGate
Jul 7, 2012, 11:26 AM
Absolutely disgusting.

Shocking!

Every company out there is out to make money.

Yes, the nerve of them! Providing career and employment opportunities for thousands of people. How dare they! Damn their eyes!

But in this day and age, it has never been more important for the big companies that sell massive number of units to be environmentally responsible.

Totally agree. 100%

Considering Apple put themselves out there as a company that is environmentally friendly, this move is despicable. They've always been a company about form over function. Design at no cost. If it turns out that other companies can make thin laptops without losing EPEAT certification, then it will make this move all the more despicable. This company has no shame.

EPEAT means that the machine should be designed to be recycled. EPEAT does not mean the machine will be recycled.

EPEAT does not encourage recycling by forcing its signees to offer incentives to encourage recycling.

The Apple scheme comes with an incentive and a damn good one: Recycle a PC and get free stuff from our most excellent range of trinkets and knickknacks.

And note that the incentive is for any machine of value; not just machines made by Apple.

The customer gets money off stuff. Apple gets a new customer. A machine gets properly recycled at Apple's expense.

the8thark
Jul 7, 2012, 11:27 AM
EPEAT certification requires certain standards that make the machines easy to disassemble and recycle using common tools.

*Stops wondering why Apple pulled products*

I have to agree here. No surprise really.

HalfBlazed
Jul 7, 2012, 11:27 AM
What sucks is that now that Steve has passed on, every misstep that Apple makes is looked at so much more critically, at least by me. Every time I read a post like this I'm like "Hmmmmmmm would Steve have done this?" "Is Cook gonna f$%k up Apple."


Anyone else going through this?

AaronEdwards
Jul 7, 2012, 11:29 AM
If the machine was handed in there, yes. You'd prefer they fly it to the US to recycle it? How much gas would that cost? I thought you cared about the environment. Perhaps you expect Apple to re-write Puerto Rico's legislation?[COLOR="#808080"]

You seem to completely have misunderstood my comment.

Apple's declaration doesn't state that it is processed in the country in which it was collected. It states the region in which it was collected.

[QUOTE]All e-waste collected by apple-controlled voluntary and regulatory programs worldwide is processed in the region in which it was collected.

Puerto Rico may be in the same region as the US, and so may Mexico too.

Cubytus
Jul 7, 2012, 11:36 AM
Apple can no longer fulfill that and people are arguing that it's not a problem since Apple is doing it themselves.Being dependent upon only one company to do the recycling is probably what EPEAT precisely wants to avoid. This makes some sense, economically: if, for whatever reason, Apple couldn't do its recycling themselves, but found it cheaper to sub-contract it to Dell, the latter could do it with "common tools" (for the industry).

Doesn't have to be "common" for the laypeople, does it?


All Apple has to do is further advertise their recycling program. After all they give you a gift card when you return old products to them.Please show me where the gift card is mentioned here: http://www.apple.com/ca/recycling/

haravikk
Jul 7, 2012, 11:36 AM
If the machine can be recycled by the average joe, then how do you know that the average joe will do it properly.
They don't necessarily have to be disassembling it themselves, my point was that glue doesn't make disassembly easier for anyone. Users are still far better off sending the whole thing to a proper recycling location; while Apple is good for providing access to such a service, it isn't suitable for everyone.

An end user could however want to be able to replace the battery themselves, outside of warranty, for the sake of doing it more quickly if they know what they're doing. While it's not a big use case, any difficulty in disassembly is going to waste time for someone down the line.

Mmm. I don't think I'd be comfortable with a laptop where the components weren't securely fastened down. Far too easy to damage.
Spacers in sensible case design wouldn't leave components loose; the point of them is to fill the gaps so things can't move around once the unit is closed, so long as the unit is held closed securely then everything would stay in place just fine. It's technically possible to build any computer securely with spacers that fit correctly, all you have to do is make sure the access hatch (case cover, laptop keyboard, backplate, whatever) is held down properly with some good screws, a latching mechanism or any of a number of methods.

Considering Apple is already getting themselves a load of custom components, and their machines aren't exactly budget products, then it seems silly that they'd opt for glue over just getting another custom piece to hold the batteries securely in place.

mdntcallr
Jul 7, 2012, 11:37 AM
Perhaps this is another case of Apple's designers ruling the roost over logic.

the logical thing to do is produce computers/devices which can be disassembled for repair/upgrade easily. Instead Apple is taking the approach to make it harder and harder.

now even macbook pro retina is difficult to upgrade, add ram and even repair a monitor.

Sorry, but am i the only one who things Apple is moving things in the wrong direction?

Environmental ratings are helpful, so is access to repair, upgrade and update your computers.

MuppetGate
Jul 7, 2012, 11:37 AM
Mmm. A couple of possibilities:

By using glue they can shave the odd millimetre from the size of the machine.

If you use screws then people will either attempt to replace the battery themselves or take it to some back street dealer and have it done cheap, which can lead to this:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/3602097/ao-2011-149_final.pdf

I absolutely love that I got down voted for posting an Australian Civil Aviation Authority Report on an iPhone that put a passenger plane at risk. So let me just post it again with a few extra highlights:

The technical examinations found that a small metal screw had been misplaced in the battery bay of the mobile telephone; the screw puncturing the battery casing and causing an internal short circuit leading to heating and thermal runaway. It was probable that the screw had been misplaced during an earlier repair carried out on the telephone. That repair had not been conducted by an authorised service provider.
This investigation highlights the risks associated with the use of non-authorised agents for the repair of lithium battery-powered devices, and reinforces the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) recommendations that these devices should be carried in the cabin and not in checked- in baggage.

So next year, when Tim Cook is asked why all Apple products have batteries glued in place, he can say:
"Because we don't want a Macbook Retina that has been incorrectly serviced at 'Honest Jack's BackStreet Battery Emporium' to bring down a fully-laden passenger flight."

HelveticaRoman
Jul 7, 2012, 11:38 AM
Great news for childless style lovers who have no moral obligation to the planet whatsoever.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 11:41 AM
Sorry, but am i the only one who things Apple is moving things in the wrong direction?

No, I also think that. They may make more money with this stuff, but I don't like the MBPR. I don't care too much about thickness, and I'd like it if there was just a normal 2009-styled MacBook Pro with a retina display. The lack of an ethernet port alone is a reason I would not buy.

Phazotron
Jul 7, 2012, 11:42 AM
Apple isn't a bank where making more money is their business.
.

Really? How long would Apple be in business, if they weren't making money? I recall a time when people were waiting for Apple Computer to go bankrupt. The point of every business is to make money...

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 11:42 AM
What sucks is that now that Steve has passed on, every misstep that Apple makes is looked at so much more critically, at least by me. Every time I read a post like this I'm like "Hmmmmmmm would Steve have done this?" "Is Cook gonna f$%k up Apple."


Anyone else going through this?

The comment appears on about every article, and it's annoying.

mabhatter
Jul 7, 2012, 11:44 AM
Can't literally ripping a computer apart and smelting the metal be environmentally friendly?

Does recycle mean reuse in the standard? I got plenyt of old Dells that I can recycle but nobody would reuse their ancient parts. Actually most places want to charge me to recycle the,.

This all sounds like bureaucracy that Apple has already figured out a better way to deal with it?

Just wondering....

The MacBooks have far more percentage of recyclable material than the average Dell. It's kind of petty to argue because they use glue rather than making the thing larger to use screws.

I'd venture Apple is using "hot melt" type glue as well. They have to be able to replace batteries and such in stores. IFixit and such really haven't bothered to figure out what the case is and just toss out doom and gloom.

The PREMISE of the rating is the bigger problem. They assume that the used junk is going to be pulled apart by third world people with no training and no concern for their OWN environment. Practically, that is probably the case. Where workers will just smash the batteries and such to get the aluminum housing. A bin of unibody MacBooks would probably be worth disassembling correctly.. The value of the aluminum alone would be worth the labor.

Like somebody said, they don't rate tablets and phones... And the Macs are a decreasing share of their sales. Apple probably doesn't feel the need to be "certified" over glue vs screws when they lead the pack in product lifespan, energy usage, and recyclable materials.

gnasher729
Jul 7, 2012, 11:44 AM
Really? How long would Apple be in business, if they weren't making money? I recall a time when people were waiting for Apple Computer to go bankrupt. The point of every business is to make money...

If they lose a billion dollars every year, they will still be there in hundred years time. :D


Perhaps this is another case of Apple's designers ruling the roost over logic.

the logical thing to do is produce computers/devices which can be disassembled for repair/upgrade easily. Instead Apple is taking the approach to make it harder and harder.

now even macbook pro retina is difficult to upgrade, add ram and even repair a monitor.

The logical thing is to produce devices that last long. That have everything built in to make upgrades unnecessary for the foreseeable future. And that can be repaired easily by Apple. Wouldn't you think that Apple knows exactly how to remove a glued in battery? (I would imagine a little heater that applies just the right amount of heat to just the right places on the case. But that's just my idea that I come up with within two minutes, Apple probably has some better method. ) And you can't repair an LCD monitor, you replace it. Which is easy enough once you release, unlike the guys at iFixit or what it is called, that the glass cannot be taken off but is part of the LCD screen).

MuppetGate
Jul 7, 2012, 12:02 PM
Apple isn't a bank where making more money is their business.

If making more money isn't their business, what is?

----------

Wouldn't you think that Apple knows exactly how to remove a glued in battery? (I would imagine a little heater that applies just the right amount of heat to just the right places on the case. But that's just my idea that I come up with within two minutes

Probably something like that. Anyway, Apple can replace the battery on the Macbook Retina, so it clearly can be replaced Ė by them. And the old battery can be disposed of safely Ė by them.

MNT
Jul 7, 2012, 12:03 PM
You people need to have your heads examined. Seven pages of uninformed speculation and the only people who insert any factual reference into the conversation get downvoted. Whatever. Apple declining EPEAT certification has nothing to do with how recyclable their computers are. Period. End of story. But-but-but-- no. Nothing to do with how recyclable they are. Apple will recycle, for free, 100% of the Macs they sell as well as any PC you'd like to send them. If the machine has value to Apple, they'll send you a gift card in return. That's unmatched in the industry.

I'm willing to put money down that not one of you complaining about this is an industrial designer. You have no idea how products are built. You don't need to be one, though, to see that Apple obviously knows how to remove a glued-in battery; otherwise they wouldn't offer to replace them.

Welcome to the future, where your computer is a complex-enough feat of engineering that you are expected not to try to repair it yourself. Just like your car, your television, your toaster, your refrigerator, your cell phone...

JohnDoe98
Jul 7, 2012, 12:23 PM
Please show me where the gift card is mentioned here: http://www.apple.com/ca/recycling/

http://www.apple.com/recycling/gift-card/

ProVideo
Jul 7, 2012, 12:31 PM
When I was a kid in the early 90's I remember being taught to reduce, reuse, and recycle. There was Captain Planet and other shows telling us about the ozone and other environmental issues. It seems like the years around 1990-1992 were all about raising awareness to recycle and be greener.

Then by the mid-late 90's everyone forgot about that stuff and moved on . The only thing that somewhat stuck was recycling cans and plastic bottles. But even that wasn't being done at the White House, which ran on being environmentally conscious a few years earlier because of Al Gore as VP.

It seems like the green movement of the past several years is fading as well and will be another fad/trend like the one from the 1990's.

MuppetGate
Jul 7, 2012, 12:33 PM
Being dependent upon only one company to do the recycling is probably what EPEAT precisely wants to avoid. This makes some sense, economically: if, for whatever reason, Apple couldn't do its recycling themselves, but found it cheaper to sub-contract it to Dell, the latter could do it with "common tools" (for the industry).

Apple already subcontracts to other companies (they have to sign up to a code of conduct), but Apple can't make sure that stuff gets sent to those contractors unless that stuff is first sent to Apple.


Please show me where the gift card is mentioned here: http://www.apple.com/ca/recycling/

It's not mentioned there; it's mentioned here:

http://www.apple.com/recycling/

That looks like a pretty sweet deal to me.

MuppetGate
Jul 7, 2012, 12:48 PM
You people need to have your heads examined. Seven pages of uninformed speculation and the only people who insert any factual reference into the conversation get downvoted. Whatever. Apple declining EPEAT certification has nothing to do with how recyclable their computers are. Period. End of story. But-but-but-- no. Nothing to do with how recyclable they are. Apple will recycle, for free, 100% of the Macs they sell as well as any PC you'd like to send them. If the machine has value to Apple, they'll send you a gift card in return. That's unmatched in the industry.

I'm willing to put money down that not one of you complaining about this is an industrial designer. You have no idea how products are built. You don't need to be one, though, to see that Apple obviously knows how to remove a glued-in battery; otherwise they wouldn't offer to replace them.

Welcome to the future, where your computer is a complex-enough feat of engineering that you are expected not to try to repair it yourself. Just like your car, your television, your toaster, your refrigerator, your cell phone...

Wow. You didn't get down voted!

Instead of just relying on common-sense and a well-crafted argument, try inserting some incontrovertible facts. That ought to do it.

When I bought my first car, I could change the gearbox myself with the help of friends and the equipment in a college body shop.

When I bought second car, I eagerly opened the bonnet and knew pretty much straight away that I was not going to be doing anything more complicated than fuses and lightbulbs.

Still, after ten years, the car has not had any problems (AT ALL) and has never once failed to start up first time (driven every day except Sunday).

If the car is reliable then I have no problem not being able to change the gearbox.

Porco
Jul 7, 2012, 12:49 PM
In other news, Farmer Giles pulls his new herd of cattle from the poultry registry, as the rating on huge, 4-legged chickens that lay no eggs is extremely poor.

Pompiliu
Jul 7, 2012, 01:00 PM
Never heard of EPEAT. So why should i care?
I want better computers, i don't really care about environment. :mad:

Poisednoise
Jul 7, 2012, 01:39 PM
well thats the thing. say the screen breaks in some way in the RMBP. according to people in the electronics recycling industry, they "have no way of recycling aluminum that has glass glued to it like Apple did with both this machine and the recent iPad. (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/06/opinion-apple-retina-displa)"

so it sounds like apple literally needs to replace the whole thing rather than be able to repair it.

i don't mind the RMBP being non-upgradeable as i'm sure its specs would last me for a long time. but i do mind that apple has turned into a tech company that purposely makes throw-a-away products.

good design isn't only about just making something look nice, especially for a leading company like apple.

I'm sorry if this sounds snarky: I know sometimes people read the headline in these threads, and jump straight in with a reply, without reading the arguments that have gone before. While that's irritating occasionally, one can see, particularly in a long thread such as this, why it happens. But when someone actually quotes you back without clearly having read the post they're quoting, one does sometimes wonder...

I'm prepared to believe that iFixit's friendly neighbourhood recycling company can't separate the glass from the aluminium. All the more reason for them to be dissuaded from trying by making it more difficult, with non-standard screws and glue.

Please read this paragraph carefully: Apple not only can but they are legally required to fully recycle all of their manufactured goods sold in the EU. Given that models are predominantly the same worldwide (bar a few chips different in iPhones to take account of different operating frequencies), we can therefore assume that Apple is capable of fully recycling their products worldwide. The fact that third parties can't do it is immaterial. Both I and others not only have first hand experience of this, but many have also pointed to the webpages of Apple's own site where they not only claim that they will recycle the components, but even instruct you as to how to enable this to happen.

Given the above, I cannot see what the problem is here.

PinkyMacGodess
Jul 7, 2012, 01:48 PM
This is odd. Did they forget the whole GreenPeace haranguing they got over their use of arsenic and PVC? Apparently so.

I strongly dislike the idea that there is no way to upgrade the RAM in the new MacBooks. Bad idea, shortsighted for power users.

----------

Apple not only can but they are legally required to fully recycle all of their manufactured goods sold in the EU. Given that models are predominantly the same worldwide (bar a few chips different in iPhones to take account of different operating frequencies), we can therefore assume that Apple is capable of fully recycling their products worldwide. The fact that third parties can't do it is immaterial. Both I and others not only have first hand experience of this, but many have also pointed to the webpages of Apple's own site where they not only claim that they will recycle the components, but even instruct you as to how to enable this to happen.

Given the above, I cannot see what the problem is here.

And gives Apple a great opportunity to insure that their older technology IS recycled by offering 'rewards' for those that do return the devices to Apple. So far, every older iPod that I have had that fails has been taken back to the nearest Apple store, and used to purchase a new one. I hope Apple hasn't gotten rid of that program as it is a damn good idea IMO, and I'm sure that if the whole world knew about it, there would be a much higher rate of recycling of dead iPods. If they started doing this with their computers too, I'd be happy as I have an older plastic 15" iMac that is too old to be of any use. I'd love to take it back to the Apple store and save some green on a Mac Mini, or another iMac, or something...

I guess on the upgradability issue, I'd have to admit that besides using Fusion a lot, I don't have much need for upgrading the memory. If there was a model with say 8G, I'd be happy.

KPOM
Jul 7, 2012, 01:59 PM
Absolutely disgusting. Every company out there is out to make money. But in this day and age, it has never been more important for the big companies that sell massive number of units to be environmentally responsible. Considering Apple put themselves out there as a company that is environmentally friendly, this move is despicable. They've always been a company about form over function. Design at no cost. If it turns out that other companies can make thin laptops without losing EPEAT certification, then it will make this move all the more despicable. This company has no shame.

Maybe they just want to avoid all the paperwork and red tape associated with certification. A lot of times, government programs are counterproductive. Apple doesn't have a big presence in the enterprise, anyway, so they may believe that dotting every i and crossing every t necessary to meet the specifications isn't worth the incremental sales.

If they stop recycling or switch to less environmentally friendly manufacturing methods, then you may have a legitimate gripe. However, not adhering to ePEAT may not mean that much.

JohnDoe98
Jul 7, 2012, 01:59 PM
Just came across this. It's a worthwhile short watch and laugh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EGAtLGDU7M

iMeanIt
Jul 7, 2012, 02:32 PM
I think its about the ease of tearing apart the machines with recycling companies current tools and machines available to these recyclers. They don't have the ability to deal with the new types of enclosures or builds Apple is making, which is required to continue to innovate in the sector. We all know you need special tools to open a MBPro Retina or iPad/iPhone.

So lets turn this around...

Why can't EPEAT require their recyclers to upgrade their tools and machines so they can handle these new sets of computers/tablets/smartphones, etc. from Apple???

I think it's a fair question.

I personally don't think Apple needs to be 'stuck' in the past nor do I expect them to not innovate because of this. In fact I believe its up to the EPEAT to require their 'recyclers' to upgrade their tools to be able to handle the next generation of these types of machines...

Lastly, don't be surprised if Apple offers their own 'recycling' soon on their products.

Well said Ryth! Enough with these self-aggrandizing, blood-sucking, enviro-groups trying to rule the world via their ipse dixit edicts! One new tool could strip the aluminum and glass apart from thousands of defunct laptops. Where did we suddenly get to the point of having to be 100% recyclable using only hand-tools anyway?

thejadedmonkey
Jul 7, 2012, 02:34 PM
I think 'accuracy' is part of the problem here. Again, fusing the glass to the aluminium would mean that it can't be dismantled without easily, which is one reason why Apple didn't submit this thing to the standards body.

But does this mean that that Apple can't recycle it if the machine is returned to them?

Even if it can be, with Apple's approval, means that it's not easily recyclable. Once again, Apple's walled garden extends not only to ownership, but to end-of-life too.

dampfnudel
Jul 7, 2012, 02:44 PM
There's a disturbance in the force. Bad move by Apple.

Poisednoise
Jul 7, 2012, 02:54 PM
Even if it can be, with Apple's approval, means that it's not easily recyclable. Once again, Apple's walled garden extends not only to ownership, but to end-of-life too.

When you say "not easily", by whose definition? Do you mean the user, because they have to get it to Apple? Apple are doing the hard work for you by paying postage and sending you a box and label. Do you mean the actual recycling? I would refute that: I would suggest that one company set up to recycle a limited range of models, such as Apple's products, are likely to have more appropriate tools and be better trained in doing it efficiently, and thus easily, than a company who are attempting to recycle a slew of different models and types, such as a third-party recycler. It may be easier, counter-intuitive though this is, to recycle a product that by design has to go to someone who knows what they are doing with each component.

blackhand1001
Jul 7, 2012, 03:04 PM
We're talking about the Mac Pro, not the MacBook Pro Retina. I actually want a small laptop battery in my Mac Pro and/or in the iMac models to thwart the power hiccups that California Edison allows. Now THAT would be "innovation" if the technology would work for this.

Its called a UPS backup. You can buy one if you want.

I Rise You Fall
Jul 7, 2012, 03:12 PM
There's a disturbance in the force. Bad move by Apple.

There is much you still need to learn young padawan.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 03:38 PM
Its called a UPS backup. You can buy one if you want.

I have one, but it's dumb to convert from AC to DC to AC to DC, and my brother's iMac drained it in the last power outage, seriously weakening the battery. Shouldn't an "all-in-one" have the battery in it? You pretty much need a UPS.

blackhand1001
Jul 7, 2012, 03:56 PM
I have one, but it's dumb to convert from AC to DC to AC to DC, and my brother's iMac drained it in the last power outage, seriously weakening the battery. Shouldn't an "all-in-one" have the battery in it? You pretty much need a UPS.

I guess. I live on the east coast which relies primarily on nuclear energy so we don't really have blackout issues since environmental factors don't effect their output much compared to wind/solar/hydro energy. I can see why they avoid nuclear power though since they are on a fault line.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 04:11 PM
Post deleted.

thejadedmonkey
Jul 7, 2012, 04:13 PM
When you say "not easily", by whose definition? Do you mean the user, because they have to get it to Apple? Apple are doing the hard work for you by paying postage and sending you a box and label. Do you mean the actual recycling? I would refute that: I would suggest that one company set up to recycle a limited range of models, such as Apple's products, are likely to have more appropriate tools and be better trained in doing it efficiently, and thus easily, than a company who are attempting to recycle a slew of different models and types, such as a third-party recycler. It may be easier, counter-intuitive though this is, to recycle a product that by design has to go to someone who knows what they are doing with each component.

...the EPEAT? This isn't really that hard to understand, there are standard recycling practices throughout the world. Apple's new MBPR doesn't adhere to those standards, and rather than get a low EPEAT rating, they simply chose to remove their products from the EPEAT certification.

Destroying the environment 1mm at a time, is still destroying the environment.

SVTVenom
Jul 7, 2012, 04:17 PM
Exactly. So many Apple fans will demonize EPEAT over this in an attempt to brush over what a lame move by Apple this is. The stereotype that Mac users are nothing but liberals who pretend to care about social and environmental issues but deep down really don't care at all is validated by this move on Apple's part. Bypassing EPEAT just to have a new barely thinner laptop to release each year to please the crowds is not really the kind of company I like to do business with.

Wow, hate Apple much? You even managed to label us as homophobes in there. This level of stupidity isn't achieved by accident, so do you have brain damage or are you just trolling?

KPOM
Jul 7, 2012, 04:18 PM
...the EPEAT? This isn't really that hard to understand, there are standard recycling practices throughout the world. Apple's new MBPR doesn't adhere to those standards, and rather than get a low EPEAT rating, they simply chose to remove their products from the EPEAT certification.


If they maintain their own recycling program, then the lack of an EPEAT certification won't really affect the actual recycling rate.



Destroying the environment 1mm at a time, is still destroying the environment.

Is there any evidence that EPEAT actually helps the environment? Or is it just another feel-good measure like replacing plastic bags with paper or canvas (which aren't shown to have any benefits to the environment whatsoever).

Badandy
Jul 7, 2012, 04:27 PM
I don't care in the slightest that Apple's products won't be quite as environmentally friendly going forward. You want to have a far bigger impact on the environment than laptop's not being disassemble-able? Stop buying a new laptop/phone every year.

As for me, I want the best product I can have (including thinness) as often as I want.

miniroll32
Jul 7, 2012, 04:57 PM
I don't care in the slightest that Apple's products won't be quite as environmentally friendly going forward.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/23122783.jpg

Badandy
Jul 7, 2012, 05:04 PM
Image (http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/23122783.jpg)

Remember that time when you used your computer (which uses energy) for something that wasn't absolutely necessary? Think of the environment!

steveh
Jul 7, 2012, 05:34 PM
Even then, the soldered-on RAM is bogus. It's a trick to make people have to buy more RAM from Apple instead of just upgrading.

Try fitting socketed RAM into the same vertical space as soldered-on.

We'll wait.

----------

And please explain how propriety screws make Apple products more thin, light, durable, and sturdy.

They don't. They also don't make them thicker, heavier, less durable or less sturdy.

What they do is to discourage users from mucking about inside the device, and after screwing up, try to get by warranty requirements to fix the thing.

imageWIS
Jul 7, 2012, 05:39 PM
Interesting, I guess in the pursuit of thiness Apple is forced to use things which aren't enviromentally friendly like glue or whatever. Interesting as Apple used to use enviromental friendliness as a major selling point a few years back.

Actually, Apple under most of SJ's tenure (first and second time around) wasn't environmentally friendly, and SJ didn't really do anything to improve Apple's enviromenatalism. As an aside, Al Gore, who is on the board of Apple didn't do much to turn this around either, ironic since the environment has been his 'life's work' since the 2000 election.

Apple only started to improve their green record AFTER several lists came out (and were picked up by the mass media) which stated that they had a bad environmental record compared to other tech companies. After fixing thier products and making them greener, they then began to capitalize and advertize that they made 'green products' and the public, who seem to have no long term memory, predictably bought into the marketing campaign.

----------

I don't care in the slightest that Apple's products won't be quite as environmentally friendly going forward.

Well, that's really short-sighted and frankly, stupid.

You want to have a far bigger impact on the environment than laptop's not being disassemble-able? Stop buying a new laptop/phone every year.

As for me, I want the best product I can have (including thinness) as often as I want.

Your first sentence contradicts your second sentence.

macintoshi
Jul 7, 2012, 06:18 PM
I think its about the ease of tearing apart the machines with recycling companies current tools and machines available to these recyclers. They don't have the ability to deal with the new types of enclosures or builds Apple is making, which is required to continue to innovate in the sector. We all know you need special tools to open a MBPro Retina or iPad/iPhone.

So lets turn this around...

Why can't EPEAT require their recyclers to upgrade their tools and machines so they can handle these new sets of computers/tablets/smartphones, etc. from Apple???

I think it's a fair question.

I personally don't think Apple needs to be 'stuck' in the past nor do I expect them to not innovate because of this. In fact I believe its up to the EPEAT to require their 'recyclers' to upgrade their tools to be able to handle the next generation of these types of machines...

Lastly, don't be surprised if Apple offers their own 'recycling' soon on their products.

Innovate? Well beside the ivy bridge and the new type of rams i would say the word innovative is wrong! Apple is useing samsung 830 ssd witch arent the cheapest and the fastest. Apple is useing them because they couldn't sell enough of them. Because the people bought better faster ones and cheaper ones! So no innovation here. The gpu while understandable the cause of heat if putting in a stronger one, while its not understandable they missed to put 2GB instead of 1GB.This is not inovation. The cpu and the rams arent from apple either. While there is also a 1800 version of rams! No innovation. The design is the same, only a little slimmer but user component replacement unfriendly. And the cost for a 256gb ssd is not justificable, seriosly thats rather brainwashing and illusion, than innovation! Don't want to mention the rest of things!

Abazigal
Jul 7, 2012, 06:25 PM
What sucks is that now that Steve has passed on, every misstep that Apple makes is looked at so much more critically, at least by me. Every time I read a post like this I'm like "Hmmmmmmm would Steve have done this?" "Is Cook gonna f$%k up Apple."


Anyone else going through this?

I agree. Steve jobs was arrogant enough to turn a blind eye to any criticism that came flying at his company, because he knew the number one priority was to make great products. Everything else was secondary. If he could save the environment in the progress, good for him, but I don't see how it should be a top priority. And seriously, screw organizations like green peace. I see them as just a bunch of thugs and bullies with too much time on their hands. Don't they have bat mobiles to crash or something?

While Tim is probably trying to get favorable press and genuinely making a positive difference in apple, he seems to come across as too spineless, seemingly all too eager to bend over backwards to cater to criticism. I am not saying that raising employee wages and work conditions is wrong, but doing those in response to complaints in the news makes it look like you do have something to hide.

Show some backbone, Tim! :mad:

mim
Jul 7, 2012, 06:38 PM
You do't need a store. Apple will send you a box for your Mac, postage paid, and you send it in. That's what they do today.

Just so you know, this isn't an option in most countries that Apple sell their computers. Outside of the US the direct recycling options are very poor. You can check on Apple's web site yourself if you don't believe me.

There are some waste sites in Japan that have higher concentrations of gold and silver than commercial mines. The amount of useful material in modern electronics is insane. It is all recyclable - not as refurbished computers, but as raw components.

Gluing batteries and glass to aluminum enclosures is just dumb from that point of view. You might think 'so what', but one day it might be your kids that have the job to separate toxic crap from bits of metal because no one could be bothered being responsible today.

If Apple did instigate a return to base recycling policy, and had equipment to separate the components out into recyclable streams, that would be fine by me. But I really can't see that happening without a backlash.

gkpm
Jul 7, 2012, 06:40 PM
All the drama seems to be around the battery of the new Retina MBP (since you can replace the SSD yourself), but what is the problem with the battery, really?

Apple's official statement is that the battery will last at least 1000 full cycles, this means in practical terms is 5 years.

After those 5 or more years Apple can replace the battery for $199. The replacement includes the top part of the case, a new keyboard and touchpad. Is that a bad idea? That wipes away those years of (ab)use and gives you the feel of a new machine - all for the price of a battery. You'll easily make the $199 in extra resale value alone.

Is $199 too expensive? A new battery for the 2011 MBP, with a capacity of 6900mah costs $119.95 from iFixit - part only, DIY. But the Retina MBP battery is much larger capacity at 8460mah (22% more). Assuming you could buy one on its own, it wouldn't cost less than $150.

Is paying $50 extra and getting it properly installed, with service warranty, that expensive? Is it worth going the DIY replacement route even if you could? Not to mention the new case, keyboard and touchpad you get too...

Since the case is easily recyclable aluminium and the touchpad is mostly glass the old glued bits don't even create that much waste.

Plus if you're a courageous hacker and still don't agree, you can also do it yourself by following the instructions at http://512pixels.net/retina-macbook-pro-servicing/

I'm sure in time someone more intelligent will figure out a way of separating the battery, maybe NOT just by going ape at it with a ruler like iFixit did.

mim
Jul 7, 2012, 06:48 PM
I agree. Steve jobs was arrogant enough to turn a blind eye to any criticism that came flying at his company, because he knew the number one priority was to make great products. Everything else was secondary. If he could save the environment in the progress, good for him, but I don't see how it should be a top priority. And seriously, screw organizations like green peace. I see them as just a bunch of thugs and bullies with too much time on their hands. Don't they have bat mobiles to crash or something?


Hang on - if you think that as a Buddhist, Steve didn't care about the environment, you're friggin dreaming bloke!

The last time there was a bit of a poke from Greenpeace about the environmental performance of Apple's products, Apple went out of their way to turn that around! They literally changed the design of almost every product line, took hold of their supplier lines to create some accountability, and worked with new materials to improve their standing.

They didn't do this because 'Steve was arrogant', they did this because someone at Apple thought it should be a priority, and one they had probably overlooked previously. I'll leave it to you to guess who that might have been.

gkpm
Jul 7, 2012, 07:05 PM
Just so you know, this isn't an option in most countries that Apple sell their computers. Outside of the US the direct recycling options are very poor. You can check on Apple's web site yourself if you don't believe

I checked Apple's site and they have recycling arrangements in:

Canada
Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and India
Japan
Asia Pacific and Australia
Brazil and Costa Rica

I wouldn't say it's very poor. Across all of Europe it's very easy, just take it to a store or return it by free post.

Had a look at Asian countries out of curiosity and most offer free DHL to post any equipment back.

The odd one out seems to be Australia, which asks you to buy a new product before sending back a computer for recycling or as another option promotes a list of "Community Recycling Events.". I wonder why? It's seems very inconsistent with the rest.

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 07:10 PM
Your first sentence contradicts your second sentence.

No it doesn't. He's telling the other person to not keep buying laptops if they care then saying that he buys the new ones.

The recycling of the MacBook models does not concern me since I would never even try to recycle it anyway.

----------


The last time there was a bit of a poke from Greenpeace about the environmental performance of Apple's products, Apple went out of their way to turn that around!

The last time Greenpeace complained was when they were saying that cloud computing companies like Apple, Google, and Microsoft are hurting the environment by using electricity. I don't think Apple did anything about that.

There are much bigger polluters than these companies, but they just target the most famous one. And could they possibly choose a more meaningless name? "Greenpeace"? I think "peace" is the word people use a lot when they don't plan to do anything.

kiljoy616
Jul 7, 2012, 07:15 PM
Al Gore will not be happy.

His not the only one, I am not happy either remember children this is a long term issue or would you like to drink water full of mercury. Long term is what this was all about. :(

----------

I checked Apple's site and they have recycling arrangements in:

Canada
Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and India
Japan
Asia Pacific and Australia
Brazil and Costa Rica

I wouldn't say it's very poor. Across all of Europe it's very easy, just take it to a store or return it by free post.

Had a look at Asian countries out of curiosity and most offer free DHL to post any equipment back.

The odd one out seems to be Australia, which asks you to buy a new product before sending back a computer for recycling or as another option promotes a list of "Community Recycling Events.". I wonder why? It's seems very inconsistent with the rest.

So are you saying the issue is here only in the States? They figure they can get away with it since the government has become so impotent and will not force them to do anything they don't want too.

apolloa
Jul 7, 2012, 07:23 PM
Has Apple actually gone mad now? So let me understand this, in order to make one product thinner, it has forgone it's ability to sell it's products to a massive, and to Apple emerging market? In fact, what about video editors, publication houses? Are they now not able to buy Apple computers?

I really think Apple has just made one of the worst business decisions it has for years. Idiots, utter idiots, never mind the fact they have a responsibility to help stop the planet getting ruined.

In fact I won't buy a Retina MB Pro because it's battery sure won't last 5 years, yet to replace it you either pay Apple a fortune, or rebuild the entire computer!! :eek::eek:

Apple seems to want us all to see their products as throw away items, in that case it should bloody well price them as such!

gkpm
Jul 7, 2012, 07:26 PM
So are you saying the issue is here only in the States? They figure they can get away with it since the government has become so impotent and will not force them to do anything they don't want too.

What issue? Anyone can recycle Apple hardware very easily in the US.

http://www.apple.com/recycling/

It's as easy as in Europe or other places (in-store or free post) plus you even get a gift card if the hardware has monetary value.

----------

The last time Greenpeace complained was when they were saying that cloud computing companies like Apple, Google, and Microsoft are hurting the environment by using electricity. I don't think Apple did anything about that.


They did, Apple announced that they were going all renewable and dropping coal power from early next year: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/05/apple_coal/

apolloa
Jul 7, 2012, 07:27 PM
The last time Greenpeace complained was when they were saying that cloud computing companies like Apple, Google, and Microsoft are hurting the environment by using electricity. I don't think Apple did anything about that.


You best stop using the internet then, it's one of THE most polluting machines globally! All that equipment around the world being powered 24/7 to allow us to read mac Rumors...

Abazigal
Jul 7, 2012, 07:27 PM
His not the only one, I am not happy either remember children this is a long term issue or would you like to drink water full of mercury. Long term is what this was all about.

Oh please, there are bigger polluters to go after, like BP and Exxon. Apple products reportedly don't contain mercury anyways, so you can't pin this on Apple's head. :p

I think it also makes sense that since Apple's products are made of expensive, high-end materials like glass and aluminium, they won't be so foolish as to just let those materials rot away in some dump site. For all we know, they may have their own ways of taking apart their products, and reusing them for the production line. They just want the recycled materials to end up with them, not some random rag-and-bone man down the street. :p

True, ifixit had a fit trying to take apart the Rmbp, but maybe Apple can remove the battery readily just by applying a special solvent to dissolve the glue? who amongst you here plan to just dump your laptop into the trashbin when the time comes to replace it anyways? :confused:

saxofunk
Jul 7, 2012, 07:30 PM
If Apple was smarter, they would have glued the battery to the bottom case, so that when the bottom case is removed, the battery comes with it. Seems like a simple solution to a major hiccup to continued environmental friendliness. I'm guessing that the display is more like an iPad or iPod Touch - glued around the rim, with the LCD then also glued to the glass for optical clarity. I'm hoping that the edge is the only glued part. Time will tell, once I see a dropped one.

This machine is undoubtedly made to be disposable. Considering I make a living repairing macs, and my brother's PhD is in environmental studies - I'm insulted and disappointed. Tim is taking Apple in a more profitable direction - which is damaging what I'd considered to be a great company.\

On the plus side, maybe we'll get an anti-glare iMac now!

SteinMaster
Jul 7, 2012, 07:37 PM
Good for Apple. These groups are no different than the mob demanding protection money from shop owners so they remain safe from the mob.

I agree. I'm tired of the g*d d*mn government placing all these restrictions on private industry and capitalism.

zettie
Jul 7, 2012, 08:01 PM
Can't say I'm surprised by Apple glueing their battery, they got bad PR after that iPhone went smoking on that airplane in Australia, but then turned out to be caused by a bad repair by some fly-by-night monkey repairman. The problem made headline news, but the accident report was months later and never got any attention.

Can you imagine what this mammoth battery would do if handled badly? This thing is like 6 iPhones!

It's probably best for the safety of all of us that such power is kept well fixed and away from weekend diyrs armed with only a philips driver.

bungiefan89
Jul 7, 2012, 08:34 PM
Oh. I was actually serious about trying to get a battery into my Mac Pro. It seems more sensible than an external UPS, and I think the iMacs should have small laptop batteries in them.HEY! That was MY idea! :p

faroZ06
Jul 7, 2012, 09:01 PM
HEY! That was MY idea! :p

Really? Good. That's one more person on the petition!

elpamyelhsa
Jul 7, 2012, 09:18 PM
These machines are disposable, plain and simple- the same way the iPad 2 is. They were never designed to be serviced, they were designed to fail and be replaced. You absolutely 100% have to purchase Applecare with the rMBP because you'd have to be insane not to- if your battery goes, the chassis is toast. If a single bit in your 16GB of main memory (note that the rMBP RAM is not ECC) goes, the logic board is toast. If your iSight breaks, your entire monitor is toast.

As an Apple service tech I'll list the "out of warranty" parts replacement cost of the MBPr(and Australia pays a lot more than Americas).
Prices in $AUD with Tax for full exchange of bad parts for Apple recycling

Macbook Pro Retna;
Logicboard 2.7Ghz 16GB $505
Top Case with Battery $400
Display Clamshell $700.

Tho the battery is almost twice the price of a common laptop, Repairing out of warranty is of still a reasonable cost.

iPad 2 exchange for battery refurb costs $120

----------

Can't say I'm surprised by Apple glueing their battery, they got bad PR after that iPhone went smoking on that airplane in Australia, but then turned out to be caused by a bad repair by some fly-by-night monkey repairman. The problem made headline news, but the accident report was months later and never got any attention.

Can you imagine what this mammoth battery would do if handled badly? This thing is like 6 iPhones!

It's probably best for the safety of all of us that such power is kept well fixed and away from weekend diyrs armed with only a philips driver.

Apple has a service guard to cover the battery while you are working on a Macbook Pro Retna

calderone
Jul 7, 2012, 09:20 PM
Never heard of EPEAT. So why should i care?
I want better computers, i don't really care about environment. :mad:

Yeah because that's sustainable.

watchthesky
Jul 7, 2012, 10:00 PM
why is everyone getting their knickers in such a twist over this? :\ as it's been mentioned before, just because their products are no longer certified by "EPEAT" (who i have never heard of before) doesn't mean they are not environmentally friendly or recyclable. truth of the matter is only apple really knows why they withdrew from the program. only apple knows how they are going to go about recycling in the future. plus, tbh, recycling a computer on the grand scale of things really doesn't make a whole lot of difference. what about all the other environmental atrocities you are contributing to on a daily basis? do you walk everywhere? are you vegan? do you only buy locally grown food? do you never shower? do people actually think before they pretend to be concerned about something? or are you just 'disappointed' for the sake of being disappointed?

hachre
Jul 7, 2012, 10:38 PM
deleted

Zaphodsplanet
Jul 7, 2012, 10:59 PM
EPEAT certification requires certain standards that make the machines easy to disassemble and recycle using common tools.

*Stops wondering why Apple pulled products*

Amen.

blumpkin
Jul 8, 2012, 12:30 AM
Guys, we're all missing the big picture here: there is a man out there with the surname Frisbee.

Ping Guo
Jul 8, 2012, 12:40 AM
Apple is the world's largest corporation.

Apple is nowhere close to being the world's largest corporation.

mim
Jul 8, 2012, 12:52 AM
I checked Apple's site and they have recycling arrangements in:

Canada
Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and India
Japan
Asia Pacific and Australia
Brazil and Costa Rica

I wouldn't say it's very poor. Across all of Europe it's very easy, just take it to a store or return it by free post.

Had a look at Asian countries out of curiosity and most offer free DHL to post any equipment back.

The odd one out seems to be Australia, which asks you to buy a new product before sending back a computer for recycling or as another option promotes a list of "Community Recycling Events.". I wonder why? It's seems very inconsistent with the rest.

Hmmm, I stand corrected! The last time I looked, the free DHL thing didn't exist for most places.

Badandy
Jul 8, 2012, 01:54 AM
Well, that's really short-sighted and frankly, stupid.

Cool. Either make a counter-point or keep your in-depth analysis to yourself.


Your first sentence contradicts your second sentence.

It doesn't at all.

Swift
Jul 8, 2012, 02:05 AM
Exactly! I concreted my theory that apple has become predominantly about money and market share when the retina Macbook was released.

......

Congrats apple, turns out you don't care for the environment... or anything else but power, money and market share.

Oh, the silliness.

laserbeam273
Jul 8, 2012, 02:28 AM
In my mind, EPEAT's requirement that computers are able to be easily disassembled is flawed.

Ultimately a computer is environmentally friendly IF it minimises harm on the environment. It's not ultimately about whether you jump through hoop X or Y, but if it minimises damage to the environment. If you follow EPEAT's guidelines, we should all use Mac Pro's because it's easier to replace parts in them, right?

On the other hand, Apple's solution is small but with non-replacable parts. Think old Dell box vs recent Mac Mini - I'm going to go out on a limb, and say the Mac Mini is more environmentally friendly. MUCH less plastic, instead only a little bit of aluminium, and less energy use (judging by fan noise and size) and not to mention Apple products seem to last a lot longer.

And as for end of life, well Apple has a recycling program for their computers. I think EPEAT is going to need to rethink their guidelines or else they'll get caught in the past.

Swift
Jul 8, 2012, 02:47 AM
I was really only upset about the lack of Firewire and ethernet and the soldered-on RAM. That is total BS. And, if anything, why didn't Apple make a retina 13" model? The way to stick with the Apple I liked is to stick with my 2008 Mac. That's when Apple was at the top of their game.

It has two Thunderbolt ports. You realize you can run firewire off that, and gigabit Ethernet, and still have four monitors?

They aren't anywhere near their top.

----------

In my mind, EPEAT's requirement that computers are able to be easily disassembled is flawed.

Ultimately a computer is environmentally friendly IF it minimises harm on the environment. It's not ultimately about whether you jump through hoop X or Y, but if it minimises damage to the environment. If you follow EPEAT's guidelines, we should all use Mac Pro's because it's easier to replace parts in them, right?

On the other hand, Apple's solution is small but with non-replacable parts. Think old Dell box vs recent Mac Mini - I'm going to go out on a limb, and say the Mac Mini is more environmentally friendly. MUCH less plastic, instead only a little bit of aluminium, and less energy use (judging by fan noise and size) and not to mention Apple products seem to last a lot longer.

And as for end of life, well Apple has a recycling program for their computers. I think EPEAT is going to need to rethink their guidelines or else they'll get caught in the past.

EPEAT is a voice of the recycling industry, not necessarily in favor of Green. Just ensuring that recyclers make money. An iPad replaces how many newspapers, CDs, DVDs? I wake up in the morning and download electrons. Bang! the New York Times. If they use no arsenic in the glass, the proper kind of plastics, recycled materials in the things they make, then the fact that you can't fix an iPad in your garage really is no big deal. Apple will take it back and recycle it for you when it's finished, right?

MacDav
Jul 8, 2012, 03:14 AM
Exactly. So many Apple fans will demonize EPEAT over this in an attempt to brush over what a lame move by Apple this is. The stereotype that Mac users are nothing but liberals who pretend to care about social and environmental issues but deep down really don't care at all is validated by this move on Apple's part. Bypassing EPEAT just to have a new barely thinner laptop to release each year to please the crowds is not really the kind of company I like to do business with.

Yes, you are far too good a person to waste your time with a serious evironmental offender like Apple... Okay then, We'll see ya later. Have a good life. Bye, Bye.

MacDav
Jul 8, 2012, 03:41 AM
I have been back on windows for almost 3 years. I bought a 2011 macbook but returned it. And I use and prefer android currently.

Why in hell are you on an Apple rumor site then? Why aren't you on a Microsoft
or Google rumor site? Go away please.

MacDav
Jul 8, 2012, 04:00 AM
You people need to have your heads examined. Seven pages of uninformed speculation and the only people who insert any factual reference into the conversation get downvoted. Whatever. Apple declining EPEAT certification has nothing to do with how recyclable their computers are. Period. End of story. But-but-but-- no. Nothing to do with how recyclable they are. Apple will recycle, for free, 100% of the Macs they sell as well as any PC you'd like to send them. If the machine has value to Apple, they'll send you a gift card in return. That's unmatched in the industry.

I'm willing to put money down that not one of you complaining about this is an industrial designer. You have no idea how products are built. You don't need to be one, though, to see that Apple obviously knows how to remove a glued-in battery; otherwise they wouldn't offer to replace them.

Welcome to the future, where your computer is a complex-enough feat of engineering that you are expected not to try to repair it yourself. Just like your car, your television, your toaster, your refrigerator, your cell phone...

Thank You! For your voice of sanity in a sea of uninformed loud mouthed children.

I Rise You Fall
Jul 8, 2012, 04:18 AM
Thank You! For your voice of sanity in a sea of uninformed loud mouthed children.

Indeed. The level of stupidy on this forum is mind boggling. People want thin, they want light, they want good battery life and then they scream nonsense when they canít replace battery themselfs or that due to thinness of the case RAM which is soldered to the board.

Have some common sense for petes sake.


My plastic MacBook still lasts ~90 minutes on a full battery charge and itís almost 6 years old now. Even if its battery can be easily replaced i havenít done that in almost 6 years. That is true for almost all notebook owners. That battery for my MacBook costs around 199 USD here and Apple is ready to replace you not only batter for those same 199 USD (if you going to need it replaced at all, ever). Sounds like a good deal to me.

MH01
Jul 8, 2012, 04:25 AM
In my mind, EPEAT's requirement that computers are able to be easily disassembled is flawed.

Ultimately a computer is environmentally friendly IF it minimises harm on the environment. It's not ultimately about whether you jump through hoop X or Y, but if it minimises damage to the environment. If you follow EPEAT's guidelines, we should all use Mac Pro's because it's easier to replace parts in them, right?

On the other hand, Apple's solution is small but with non-replacable parts. Think old Dell box vs recent Mac Mini - I'm going to go out on a limb, and say the Mac Mini is more environmentally friendly. MUCH less plastic, instead only a little bit of aluminium, and less energy use (judging by fan noise and size) and not to mention Apple products seem to last a lot longer.

And as for end of life, well Apple has a recycling program for their computers. I think EPEAT is going to need to rethink their guidelines or else they'll get caught in the past.

The problem is the waste generated everytime u fix something In the new retina, you throw everything away....ln the older MacBooks you could replace parts. The new retina approach has gone from recycling faulty components to throwing away all of them if something goes wrong.

Not to mention the inability to upgrade components means your upgrading to an new laptop instead of buying new ram, hdd.... Putting in another hdd where he SuperDrive was etc..... It quiet ***** for the environment. Huge step backwards by apple, shame really just to gloat about how thin thier gear is.

I Rise You Fall
Jul 8, 2012, 04:43 AM
The problem is the waste generated everytime u fix something In the new retina, you throw everything away....ln the older MacBooks you could replace parts. The new retina approach has gone from recycling faulty components to throwing away all of them if something goes wrong.


Throwing? Have you lost your mind? You throw aluminum away? You throw glass away? You throw plastic away? Just like that?

Don’t know about you, but in my village we sort it by material and … what do you know … RECYCLE IT. Especially electronics.

Not to mention the inability to upgrade components means your upgrading to an new laptop instead of buying new ram, hdd.... Putting in another hdd where he SuperDrive was etc..... It quiet ***** for the environment. Huge step backwards by apple, shame really just to gloat about how thin thier gear is.

Your cluelessness (is that even a word :D) … you know it’s not even funny.

gkpm
Jul 8, 2012, 05:01 AM
Apple has a service guard to cover the battery while you are working on a Macbook Pro Retna

That's a good point. It goes to show that large capacity batteries are really not things unqualified users should be messing around with.

Would most users know how to use the guard or even bother using it when replacing their own batteries? Probably not. Should Apple really allow such a risk of injury?

The problem is the waste generated everytime u fix something In the new retina, you throw everything away....ln the older MacBooks you could replace parts. The new retina approach has gone from recycling faulty components to throwing away all of them if something goes wrong.

What waste, exactly? All parts on the MBP Retina are still replaceable, the only glued part is the battery.

The battery replacement changes the top case, keyboard and touchpad. Both the case (aluminium) and touchpad (glass) are readily recyclable, leaving only the plastic in the keyboard, probably outweighed by the not having a plastic case around the battery as other computers do.

MikeELL
Jul 8, 2012, 05:01 AM
From reading the article, the problem isn't that the kit can't be recycled; it's that it can't be recycled by just anybody.
...
So I don't have a problem with Apple pulling out of this scheme, but they have to have something better to replace it with, and with an incentive for people to actually use it.

My thoughts exactly. I will withhold judgement until it becomes clear whether or not Apple is implementing some new recycling program. It would be an amazing step if Apple implemented a comprehensive scheme for recycling old machines. That would be more in keeping with the form*and*function I've come to expect from Apple.

gnasher729
Jul 8, 2012, 05:07 AM
Just so you know, this isn't an option in most countries that Apple sell their computers. Outside of the US the direct recycling options are very poor. You can check on Apple's web site yourself if you don't believe me.

Your location mentions Melbourne and London. In the UK, where I live, Apple will accept _any_ computer back, no matter what the make, when you buy a new Mac, and they will take back any Mac.

And people living in remote areas of Australia are much less of a problem for environmental damage than people in New York throwing broken computers into a rubbish bin, just because of the numbers. And this has nothing to do with EPEAT, because these computers just don't get recycled, but neither do Dell, HP, or any other computers in these areas.

In fact I won't buy a Retina MB Pro because it's battery sure won't last 5 years, yet to replace it you either pay Apple a fortune, or rebuild the entire computer!! :eek::eek:

The battery lasts about four times longer than those in the original MacBook (1000 charges vs. 300, and about 7 hours per charge instead of 4 hours). Those batteries cost $129 to replace, the Retina MBP costs $199. By the time you pay $199 for the Retina MBP battery replacement, you would have spent $520 on the MacBook.

Unless you do what I did, after the second battery stopped charging the MacBook is now permanently connected to the charger. A Retina MBP surely can be used that way as well.


Never heard of EPEAT. So why should i care?
I want better computers, i don't really care about environment. :mad:

To the guys from Australia who were complaining: We just found a volunteer who will let you dump all your non-recyclable products in his garden or his living room.

zettie
Jul 8, 2012, 06:44 AM
Apple is again taking the heat for being ahead of the curve.

You can't change human nature. People want powerful, thin and light - just go look at just about any laptop review and see for yourself how important these criteria are. If Apple can do this and still recycle the machines themselves, there's no environmental issue.

EPEAT also doesn't look at tablets or mobiles, exactly the devices they should since there's so many more of them out there - look at iPad sales vs Macs! Well done EPEAT, way to make yourselves irrelevant in today's world.

I suspect EPEAT will be replaced by a more realistic and forward thinking group quite soon, so I hope their offices are as easily recyclable as their requirements, i.e. with only a screwdriver and a hammer.

Apple just jumped off that sinking ship earlier than others.

GermanyChris
Jul 8, 2012, 06:54 AM
Exactly. So many Apple fans will demonize EPEAT over this in an attempt to brush over what a lame move by Apple this is. The stereotype that Mac users are nothing but liberals who pretend to care about social and environmental issues but deep down really don't care at all is validated by this move on Apple's part. Bypassing EPEAT just to have a new barely thinner laptop to release each year to please the crowds is not really the kind of company I like to do business with.

I'm with ya!

Exactly! I concreted my theory that apple has become predominantly about money and market share when the retina Macbook was released.

It's pretty disgusting IMO as I would have thought apple was design conscious towards environmental issues. As it turns out they were just using the whole thing as leverage for marketing and pushing sales as being "environmentally conscious" was trending. They worked around that and used it as their sales key.

Apples intentions are becoming more apparent as time goes on, first the macbook airs (which wasn't a bad idea) then the retina MBP designs... again, focusing on trends to maximize sales and furthermore charging unjustifiable prices for initial BTO upgrades.

Congrats apple, turns out you don't care for the environment... or anything else but power, money and market share.

while a little extreme I agree..

zettie
Jul 8, 2012, 06:59 AM
LOL actually found an EPEAT certified tablet:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/5/prweb9552658.htm

But I can see how it won't be very popular.

thejadedmonkey
Jul 8, 2012, 07:32 AM
If they maintain their own recycling program, then the lack of an EPEAT certification won't really affect the actual recycling rate.




Is there any evidence that EPEAT actually helps the environment? Or is it just another feel-good measure like replacing plastic bags with paper or canvas (which aren't shown to have any benefits to the environment whatsoever).

A lot of agencies require EPEAT certification, so no not directly. But indirectly they help other people pick laptops that are "greener" for the environment. They provide an environmental baseline for companies to adhere to.

Sackvillenb
Jul 8, 2012, 07:45 AM
While I'm kind of disappointed about this, at the same time it's important to remember that epeat is a very specific measure of "environmental friendliness", and that apple is (I think) more environmentally conscious than most other electronics companies, and this still shows in other aspects of their product designs, even if the are not epeat certified. That being said, I do hope apple keeps up their general (and relative) eco-"friendliness". It's important. Our world is getting way more screwed than most people realize.

apolloa
Jul 8, 2012, 07:54 AM
All the drama seems to be around the battery of the new Retina MBP (since you can replace the SSD yourself), but what is the problem with the battery, really?

The problem is it's glued in place, you CANNOT remove it, I would imagine the only way it's done is by a special machine that breaks the battery and the casing or one or the other, think about it, Apple will charge $199 plus tax and take 3 to 4 hours to replace it in store, 3 to 4 day's if you send it away, that's because they will essentially strip your machine down, and rebuild it into a new top cover with new battery glued in place.

It's not very good IMO, but obviously Apple HAS to by law ensure it does recycle the battery's and it's aluminium.
I don't class the computer as a throw away as no doubt the average machine will last for 4 years or so before needing a new battery, I doubt it's any less environmentally friendly at the end of the day, and you do have a solution to replacing the battery's.

But people have been so used to changing their own laptop battery's, it's a shame Apple don't want you to. But that's why it has dropped the EPEAT certification as it declares you can take the machine apart and replace items easily.
As for the Retina's screen being glued into the top cover argument, that's a moot point as you would alway's change the whole top cover anyway, far less hassle, then someone else can worry about breaking it down for recycling.

However, the other issue with this is the markets Apple has just closed off to itself, which are vast and large from what I can gather. It's a very strange and backward business decision to make, just for a thinner laptop design.

Macboy Pro
Jul 8, 2012, 08:16 AM
It is clear the retina macbook pro is disposable and clearly their direction. Its not repairable and has a 1yr or optional 3yr only. Really, really bad move and bad sign for Apples direction.

colour
Jul 8, 2012, 08:52 AM
Why in hell are you on an Apple rumor site then? Why aren't you on a Microsoft
or Google rumor site? Go away please.

Said the fanboy, you went as far as to include mac in your username...

I am here because MacRumors is a great source (if not the best on the internet) of apple related news and a open forum for discussion about everything, whether that be apple related or not. I bring a level headed, non bias opinion to the table and it is not required that you own a mac to be eligible to comment, discuss or help new users who want advice. Sometimes it's good to listen to others opinions, whose interest span further than just apple, you may learn something.

This is my forum/news site for apple, I have others for non apple related interests... anything else?

somethingelsefl
Jul 8, 2012, 09:31 AM
Remember the "Greenest Family of Notebooks" Campaign only 3 years ago? What a difference a few years can make: A complete reversal of direction.

Apple TV Ad: Introducing the Greenest Family of Notebooks
http://youtu.be/n42XFU3GLOk

Emerica
Jul 8, 2012, 09:40 AM
To be totally honest, I could care less about the environment. Therefore, the EPEAT mess really doesn't bother me. What does bother me is the fact that the consumer does not have full access and upgradeability after shelling out $2200 on a laptop. That's ridiculous. Apple's "new direction" sucks, and I would rather have a computer that I could fix myself than to shed 0.000384 inches on the enclosure (hyperbole). For this reason, I have remained on my white Macbook from 2008 until this day. It has seen two hard drives, a memory max out, and a bezel/top enclosure replacement. If I was not able to upgrade my memory, I would be stuck with 1GB which would be severely underpowered for Lion.

I am not a fan boy, but I love Apple products. I understand that they are going in a "new direction" but that new direction does not have to eliminate the possibility of upgrading your computer yourself. Why is it mutually exclusive? Why can't the "new direction" incorporate the ability to swap out battery, RAM, etc?

There's no way to get around the fact that Apple products are more expensive than the competition. I'm ok with this extra expense when I have full confidence that my computer will last as long as my white MacBook has. When PC fanboys would criticize me for using an Apple, my comebacks were: awesome OS and QUALITY, long lasting materials. The latter comeback is now defunct.

Dbrown
Jul 8, 2012, 09:53 AM
We're talking about the Mac Pro, not the MacBook Pro Retina. I actually want a small laptop battery in my Mac Pro and/or in the iMac models to thwart the power hiccups that California Edison allows. Now THAT would be "innovation" if the technology would work for this.

There is this thing called an "uninterruptible power supply" you can buy for that you know

charlituna
Jul 8, 2012, 10:29 AM
At first this seemed like nothing important. But that fact about the government and EPEAT technologies... Wasn't apple going to introduce iPads into the FAA?

iPads and iPhones aren't under EPEAT rules so it's moot on that one

And for the record, Apple has nothing to do with the FAA decision. Or any other group picking up the iPad for use. The groups alone make that call

----------

This may affect their edu sales. My community purchases laptops that adhere to the EPEAT standard.



They want iPads, not laptops, in schools and those are void of EPEAT anyway. So I doubt they really care that much.

Besides groups that picked to go with EPEAT can always unpick it and in a year or so they may all have.

----------

well thats the thing. say the screen breaks in some way in the RMBP. according to people in the electronics recycling industry, they "have no way of recycling aluminum that has glass glued to it like Apple did with both this machine and the recent iPad. (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/06/opinion-apple-retina-displa)"



The issue there being that they don't have the tools to pull it apart before they toss it in a shredder. Which means it cuts into their business and their money making. Nothing more or less.

charlituna
Jul 8, 2012, 10:40 AM
Another poster said (and I can't vouch for its accuracy) that by fusing the glass to the aluminum of the screen as is done in the iPad and MBPR, it becomes impossible to recycle.

A 'fact' that has not been proven.