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MacRumors
Jul 10, 2012, 10:35 AM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/10/san-francisco-to-block-most-municipal-mac-purchases-following-apples-epeat-withdrawal/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/07/epeat-150x83.jpg

Following last week's news (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/07/apple-pulls-products-from-environmental-epeat-registry/) that Apple had pulled all 39 of its qualifying Macs from the Electronic Product Environmental Assessment Tool (EPEAT) registry, it was suggested that Apple would lose business with federal, state, and local governments in the United States. Many agencies require that most or all computer purchases be limited to products listed on the EPEAT registry.

As noted by The Wall Street Journal's CIO Journal (http://blogs.wsj.com/cio/2012/07/10/san-francisco-officials-plan-to-block-apple-procurement/), the city of San Francisco has become one of the first such entities to confirm that it will be barring most purchases of Apple computers.Officials with the San Francisco Department of Environment told CIO Journal on Monday they would send out letters over the next two weeks,informing all 50 of the city's agencies that Apple laptops and desktops "will no longer qualify" for purchase with city funds. [...]

"We are disappointed that Apple chose to withdraw from EPEAT," said Melanie Nutter, director of San Francisco's Department of Environment, "and we hope that the city saying it will not buy Apple products will make Apple reconsider its participation."City agencies will still be able to ask for waivers of the policy, but San Francisco's chief information officer Jon Walton calls that process a "long" and "onerous" one that will make it "very problematic to procure Apple products."

The report notes that the impact of San Francisco's decision on Apple's bottom line will be negligible given that only about 1-2% of the city's computers are Macs, representing 500-700 machines. The most recent city data available from 2010 listed purchases totaling roughly $45,000 in Macs and iPads, and iPad purchases would continue to be allowed given the absence of any EPEAT registry for tablets.

Still, with many other governmental agencies (http://www.epeat.net/purchasers-and-rfps/) potentially making similar purchasing decisions related to Apple's withdrawal from the EPEAT registry and a possible filtering-down effect that could see other businesses adopting similar stances, Apple could face challenges in increasing its share of the PC market among enterprise and government clients.

Article Link: San Francisco to Block Most Municipal Mac Purchases Following Apple's EPEAT Withdrawal (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/10/san-francisco-to-block-most-municipal-mac-purchases-following-apples-epeat-withdrawal/)



iCaleb
Jul 10, 2012, 10:37 AM
Sad....

jontech
Jul 10, 2012, 10:38 AM
Actually Apple could use this for marketing

San Fran won't buy our gear.

This would make them more popular in 40+ states....

Rivix
Jul 10, 2012, 10:38 AM
I'm glad. The only 'design conflicts' Apple wants to implement are ones that frustrate the consumers.

foodog
Jul 10, 2012, 10:39 AM
Sad....

Good luck to the IT staff... they will need it. Switching to a completely different hardware and software platform will be painful.

kyjaotkb
Jul 10, 2012, 10:39 AM
Well, for most Office work, Windows PCs still fare well enough at much lower prices than Macs (yeah, I'm a Mac enthusiast but also a taxpayer). So I don't mind governmental agencies not buying Macs.

rmwebs
Jul 10, 2012, 10:40 AM
Apple could face challenges in increasing its share of the PC market among enterprise and government clients.

Given that its very clear that Apple no longer wish to be in the desktop/laptop market I dont see this as a problem for them. All they care about now is iOS and the AppStore. Everything else is secondary.

As far as Apple is concerned, they are only maintaining OS X to allow for development of iOS apps.

Edit Guessing the downvotes are from people who dont want to believe that this is happening. Open your damn eyes... :rolleyes:

gnasher729
Jul 10, 2012, 10:40 AM
Absolutely correct decision - if San Francisco ships all its unusable equipment to third world countries for recycling, where the EPEAT rules are required to safeguard the health of workers with no decent tools. On the other hand, they could return all unusable Apple equipment to Apple, and they are guaranteed that everything will be recycled properly.

DominikHoffmann
Jul 10, 2012, 10:40 AM
Idiots!

Peace
Jul 10, 2012, 10:41 AM
This is the first real sign that Apple is becoming a toy company.
They don't seem to care about losing "PC" sales.

Meandmunch
Jul 10, 2012, 10:42 AM
This just sounds like sour grapes on San Francisco's side. You have a small panel of people who feel like some kind of power has been taken away from them. Reminds me of my local city council.

GS17
Jul 10, 2012, 10:42 AM
Good luck to the IT staff... they will need it. Switching to a completely different hardware and software platform will be painful.

Didn't you read that only 1-2% of SF computers are Apple, your comment makes no sense

Oletros
Jul 10, 2012, 10:46 AM
This just sounds like sour grapes on San Francisco's side. You have a small panel of people who feel like some kind of power has been taken away from them. Reminds me of my local city council.

Sour grapes? They have some rules they have to follow. If a product doesn't qualify them they can't be bought.

lilo777
Jul 10, 2012, 10:46 AM
Actually Apple could use this for marketing

San Fran won't buy our gear.

This would make them more popular in 40+ states....

Which states are those? The ones that hate their environment?

commander.data
Jul 10, 2012, 10:46 AM
Given how sensitive a topic the environment is nowadays, Apple no doubt has valid reasons, but withdrawing support for EPEAT without some type of public PR answer is only going to lead to the story quickly developing a negative spin. If they don't like EPEAT because it limits design flexibility, but they remain committed to the environment, they could try to demonstrate that their products offer comparable or better environmental benefits to the EPEAT program even if they don't follow the EPEAT standards by the letter.

AppleScruff1
Jul 10, 2012, 10:46 AM
Good for San Fran. Hopefully all others will follow.

Snowy_River
Jul 10, 2012, 10:46 AM
Given that its very clear that Apple no longer wish to be in the desktop/laptop market I dont see this as a problem for them. All they care about now is iOS and the AppStore. Everything else is secondary.

As far as Apple is concerned, they are only maintaining OS X to allow for development of iOS apps.

If this we're the case, then why wouldn't Apple come out with a version of Xcode that runs on Windows to begin migrating away from the Mac altogether? Sorry, it just doesn't hold water...

aristotle
Jul 10, 2012, 10:47 AM
EPEAT, Carbon credits, same bull poop.

If you want to help the environment, pollute less. Carbon credit are like the modern equivalent of indulgences that were sold by the catholic church. Planting trees is a good thing to curb deforestation but don't think of it as a way of covering your environmental "sins".

EPEAT is just another meaningless certification with arbitrary conditions. What they should really look at is what the actual recyclability of a product is, its lifespan and the presence or lack thereof of harmful materials.

What good does it do if something meets EPEAT but becomes e-waste within a year or two? You can only recycle so much and the rest ends up as e-waste in some third world country.

Actual recyclability and reusability should count for more than ease of recycling.

I would rather see a city buy products that last longer than are easily disposable. As long as Apple has a recycling program in place, I don't see the issue here.

Prodo123
Jul 10, 2012, 10:47 AM
I might be completely wrong but...
Apple's withdrawal causes government agencies to refuse purchases of Macs with tax dollars.
Which means Apple is forcing the government to spend less, however low amount of taxpayer money goes to Mac purchases.
Doesn't that mean increasing government funds by at least some amount?
(Apple pulling out of EPEAT is still a shame)

lilo777
Jul 10, 2012, 10:47 AM
Idiots!

Are you talking about Apple?

autrefois
Jul 10, 2012, 10:47 AM
Good for San Francisco. I hope more municipalities and businesses make similar announcements.

If they and consumers make it clear that having computers that are both environmentally-friendly and serviceable is more important than gaining a millimeter here or there on Apple's already slender and elegant products, then Apple just might rethink the direction it's going.

I have been buying Macs and other Apple ware for 13+ years, but this recent decision by Apple to go backwards in terms of the environmental impact of their products and actually allowing anyone other than Apple to service the machine should something need repairing (or even if you want something as simple as a RAM upgrade!) gives me serious doubts about future purchases. And based on the comments here in other threads on Macrumors and elsewhere, I'm glad to hear I'm not alone.

unlinked
Jul 10, 2012, 10:47 AM
Actually Apple could use this for marketing

San Fran won't buy our gear.

This would make them more popular in 40+ states....

Sure, just like 40+ states who avoid Hollywood movies......

JMB1911
Jul 10, 2012, 10:47 AM
haha so what...I guess even apple is tired of trying to appease the lefties and the scam of "green"

D0rk
Jul 10, 2012, 10:48 AM
I can hear the IT staff working for the city groaning right now at the thought of technology platforms flipping back and forth.

lilo777
Jul 10, 2012, 10:48 AM
EPEAT, Carbon credits, same bull poop.

If you want to help the environment, pollute less. Carbon credit are like the modern equivalent of indulgences that were sold by the catholic church. Planting trees is a good thing to curb deforestation but don't think of it as a way of covering your environmental "sins".

EPEAT is just another meaningless certification with arbitrary conditions. What they should really look at is what the actual recyclability of a product is, its lifespan and the presence or lack thereof of harmful materials.

What good does it do if something meets EPEAT but becomes e-waste within a year or two? You can only recycle so much and the rest ends up as e-waste in some third world country.

Are you aware that Apple helped creating EPEAT?

mygoldens
Jul 10, 2012, 10:48 AM
Way to go Apple!

Just because you have a bunch of cash does not make you right!

I like the old Apple, they tried to play well with everyone.

WestonHarvey1
Jul 10, 2012, 10:48 AM
Sour grapes? They have some rules they have to follow. If a product doesn't qualify them they can't be bought.

They have set stupid rules for themselves to follow.

vampyr
Jul 10, 2012, 10:49 AM
Can someone please tell me why EPEAT is so important for San Francisco?

Given that Apple hardware costs 3x as much as the Windows equivalent, I'm more surprised that a tax payer funded agency could even afford to buy Apple products.

WestonHarvey1
Jul 10, 2012, 10:50 AM
What the world needs is more standards and compliance bodies that limit our behavior and decisions, even in how we design our products.

jabingla2810
Jul 10, 2012, 10:51 AM
Way to go Apple!

Just because you have a bunch of cash does not make you right!

I like the old Apple, they tried to play well with everyone.

Apple could be accused of many things, but never have they 'tried to play well with everyone.'

WestonHarvey1
Jul 10, 2012, 10:52 AM
Can someone please tell me why EPEAT is so important for San Francisco?

Given that Apple hardware costs 3x as much as the Windows equivalent, I'm more surprised that a tax payer funded agency could even afford to buy Apple products.

Really? Where can I find this magical $400 all-in-one PC that has all the same features as the iMac?

CalWizrd
Jul 10, 2012, 10:54 AM
... “We are disappointed that Apple chose to withdraw from EPEAT,” said Melanie Nutter, director of San Francisco’s Department of Environment...

What an appropriate name for a San Fransisco official, especially the Department of Environment. Maybe Apple should give out little plastic children's toys with their products to further endear them with the SF city fathers.

a.gomez
Jul 10, 2012, 10:54 AM
Given that its very clear that Apple no longer wish to be in the desktop/laptop market I dont see this as a problem for them. All they care about now is iOS and the AppStore. Everything else is secondary.

As far as Apple is concerned, they are only maintaining OS X to allow for development of iOS apps.

and the dumbing down of Apple by iOS would be complete.

Rodimus Prime
Jul 10, 2012, 10:56 AM
Good luck to the IT staff... they will need it. Switching to a completely different hardware and software platform will be painful.

Well considering Apple product suck to maintain in the IT world not a really issue.

Apple Enterprise/IT support makes crap look good.

EPEAT, Carbon credits, same bull poop.

If you want to help the environment, pollute less. Carbon credit are like the modern equivalent of indulgences that were sold by the catholic church. Planting trees is a good thing to curb deforestation but don't think of it as a way of covering your environmental "sins".

EPEAT is just another meaningless certification with arbitrary conditions. What they should really look at is what the actual recyclability of a product is, its lifespan and the presence or lack thereof of harmful materials.

What good does it do if something meets EPEAT but becomes e-waste within a year or two? You can only recycle so much and the rest ends up as e-waste in some third world country.

Actual recyclability and reusability should count for more than ease of recycling.

I would rather see a city buy products that last longer than are easily disposable. As long as Apple has a recycling program in place, I don't see the issue here.

Well Apple is not doing much to help any of that. If anything they are making it worse as their entire line is throw away products. No upgrading to extend their life. It is throw them away. It always better to extend the life of a product over recycling and throwing away. Apple fails to that.

You can expect Apple to loose a lot of their government contracts over this.

KnightWRX
Jul 10, 2012, 10:56 AM
What the world needs is more standards and compliance bodies that limit our behavior and decisions, even in how we design our products.

You design Apple products ?

No one is telling Apple how to design their stuff.

ArtOfWarfare
Jul 10, 2012, 10:56 AM
I might be completely wrong but...
Apple's withdrawal causes government agencies to refuse purchases of Macs with tax dollars.
Which means Apple is forcing the government to spend less, however low amount of taxpayer money goes to Mac purchases.
Doesn't that mean increasing government funds by at least some amount?
(Apple pulling out of EPEAT is still a shame)

No. The computers themselves are less expensive, but here's just a few of the fallouts that will cause their expenses to go up:

1 - Workers will end up wasting time with one or more of the following:
- Learning a new computer system.
- Dealing with Windows (because even once you've learned it, you still have to deal with the fact that it's going to have days when it doesn't feel like working.)
- Filling out the additional paperwork to get a new Mac.
2 - They'll need to buy computers more frequently, because the PCs won't last as long as the Macs. Honestly, I use my Macs for 7+ years. I don't stop using them because I want to stop using them, I stop using them because I decide there are enough new features to warrant getting a new one. (It seems like PC's get replaced within 5 years on account of them becoming unusable. Thus PCs are upgraded by force rather than choice.)

kyjaotkb
Jul 10, 2012, 10:57 AM
Sure, just like 40+ states who avoid Hollywood movies......

you could use a little pinch to zoom and figure out that Hollywood is actually located in the LA metropolitan area, a mere 380 miles away :-)

JayLenochiniMac
Jul 10, 2012, 10:57 AM
EPEAT and governments need to get on with the time with changing technology.

It used to be that you can invest in a Mercedes Benz and it'd be the only car you would ever need in your lifetime. Now all cars are throwaways.

Lennholm
Jul 10, 2012, 10:57 AM
Good luck to the IT staff... they will need it. Switching to a completely different hardware and software platform will be painful.

IT departments will rejoice. Pretty much all intranets are Windows based and IT departments usually don't like Macs because they complicate things for them, mainly support.
This is most certainly the case here since only a small portion of the PC's used are Macs

Rodimus Prime
Jul 10, 2012, 10:58 AM
Really? Where can I find this magical $400 all-in-one PC that has all the same features as the iMac?

You forget one key part. A lot of those extra features go unused and are unneeded by the end user. So those features are extra crap that has to be paid for. It could be argue that it is a waste of money having to buy all that extra crap a cheaper computer to cover just fine.

ugahairydawgs
Jul 10, 2012, 10:58 AM
You design Apple products ?

No one is telling Apple how to design their stuff.

It's fairly obvious there is an attempt to bully Apple into changing their designs by telling them they are going to be painted as anti-environment unless they change up their product lines.

Personally...I'm glad Apple told EPEAT to f-off.

westonm
Jul 10, 2012, 10:59 AM
Despite ifixit's somewhat inflammatory article on the subject I imagine this will all die down when cooler heads realize that user upgradability does not necessarily equate to recyclability. I presume Apple will continue with it's efforts to eliminate harmful compounds from their factory processes and may get EPEAT to adjust it's requirements in time. Government agencies aren't known for their quick reaction times...

I like the old Apple, they tried to play well with everyone.
Rose colored glasses are fun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Display_Connector).

KnightWRX
Jul 10, 2012, 10:59 AM
No. The computers themselves are less expensive, but here's just a few of the fallouts that will cause their expenses to go up:

1 - Workers will end up wasting time with one or more of the following:
- Learning a new computer system.
- Dealing with Windows (because even once you've learned it, you still have to deal with the fact that it's going to have days when it doesn't feel like working.)
- Filling out the additional paperwork to get a new Mac.

For 1-2% of the systems. Did you read the article ? In the end, this changes nothing for the workers, except probably a few fringe ones.

Dealing with Windows and OS X is no different. Both OSes have bugs and issues.

2 - They'll need to buy computers more frequently, because the PCs won't last as long as the Macs. Honestly, I use my Macs for 7+ years. I don't stop using them because I want to stop using them, I stop using them because I decide there are enough new features to warrant getting a new one. (It seems like PC's get replaced within 5 years on account of them becoming unusable. Thus PCs are upgraded by force rather than choice.)

Corporate/Enterprise purchases are made using lifecycles. Macs don't last longer than PCs in such a setting, they have the same lifecycles regardless of the vendor of the laptop/desktop system.

york2600
Jul 10, 2012, 11:00 AM
Absolutely correct decision - if San Francisco ships all its unusable equipment to third world countries for recycling, where the EPEAT rules are required to safeguard the health of workers with no decent tools. On the other hand, they could return all unusable Apple equipment to Apple, and they are guaranteed that everything will be recycled properly.

San Francisco e-waste is recycled in the US. It doesn't go to China. Same with most other municipalities in the Bay Area.

pubwvj
Jul 10, 2012, 11:00 AM
Ever notice how in most movies the Good Guys use Macs and the Bad Guys use Windoze computers? So SF just moves further to the dark side.

Frankly, EPEAT is dated and not useful. When they improve and update the standards Apple will probably rejoin. Functionality and durability are far more important to me than the fake green EPEAT disassembly criteria. I'm glad Apple dumped EPEAT. I'm also sure they warned EPEAT.

KnightWRX
Jul 10, 2012, 11:01 AM
It's fairly obvious there is an attempt to bully Apple into changing their designs by telling them they are going to be painted as anti-environment unless they change up their product lines.

No one is painting them as anything. The rules are to buy EPEAT certified stuff, Apple decided not to certify their stuff, hence they should expect purchases from agencies that need to respect this rule to stop.

Notice how Apple isn't the one that's pissing and moaning here, it's some unknowns on the Internet. Apple was probably quite aware of the impact of their decision and are ready to live with the consequences.

autrefois
Jul 10, 2012, 11:04 AM
They could return all unusable Apple equipment to Apple, and they are guaranteed that everything will be recycled properly.

No, unfortunately they aren't guaranteed that Apple will recycle everything properly because of the way the new retina MBPs are put together. For one thing, the battery is literally glued onto the motherboard and cannot be safely removed. More info at iFixIt (http://ifixit.org/2884/apple-ditches-green-standard-cuts-off-federal-agencies-from-apple-products/) and this thread (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/07/apple-pulls-products-from-environmental-epeat-registry/) on Macrumors.

It would be annoying and petty if Apple just wanted to keep the recycling and servicing to themselves. Instead, they are making it so that more of the computer can no longer be recycled or serviced safely. But at least they gained a couple millimeters of space so they can brag that it's smaller...

WestonHarvey1
Jul 10, 2012, 11:04 AM
You forget one key part. A lot of those extra features go unused and are unneeded by the end user. So those features are extra crap that has to be paid for. It could be argue that it is a waste of money having to buy all that extra crap a cheaper computer to cover just fine.

Regarding the "3x" claim, there's still the fact that you cannot find an all-in-one PC that matches even the core specs of CPU, RAM, graphics, etc for $400.

More broadly, many features don't show up in spec sheets but are part of the product. The footprint and weight. The aesthetics. How easy it is to tilt the monitor.

What value do you assign to the audio jack that's compatible with iPhone earbud controls? $50? If you use it all the time it's certainly worth that much.

Small White Car
Jul 10, 2012, 11:05 AM
I sure hope the San Francisco government blocks all tablet and smartphone purchases too, since they wouldn't be able to pass EPEAT rules.

Oh, wait. EPEAT specifically excludes tablets and smart phones from their list of non-approved devices (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/07/apple-pulls-products-from-environmental-epeat-registry/) since they have no chance of passing? Not being able to pass is apparently a reason to give it a pass? Cool.

So when a laptop can't be taken apart it's a problem, but when a tablet can't be taken apart is all ok because those are different words.

Just making sure I'm clear. So, San Francisco government, all your Blackberries, iPhones, and Android phones are safe just because "laptop" and "cell phone" sound different when you say them. Close call, San Francisco government!

drewyboy
Jul 10, 2012, 11:06 AM
hey moan and groaners, recycle your crap at the apple store and they'll do it responsibly. how about the tons of broken dells, hp's, asus' that I see in the dumpsters? So much for standards at that point hu???

Edit: The point is, any electronic device can be responsibly recycled... it's up to the owner to do so. No "guidelines" can do this.

thejadedmonkey
Jul 10, 2012, 11:09 AM
Wow people take it personally when Apple stops being EPEAT certified, and really go to great lengths to make everyone else be the "bad guy", just so they don't have to tarnish their opinion of Apple.

Craziness! :eek:

ugahairydawgs
Jul 10, 2012, 11:10 AM
No one is painting them as anything. The rules are to buy EPEAT certified stuff, Apple decided not to certify their stuff, hence they should expect purchases from agencies that need to respect this rule to stop.


Oh come on.....it's not even subtle. You have the director of SF's Dept of the Environment talking about how disappointed she is in Apple.

It's not because she really hates iOS 6.

Piggie
Jul 10, 2012, 11:10 AM
It does sadden me to hear the stereotypical "We're American and rich and should be able to do as we dam well like, and sod the environment" type of comments a few on these forums are saying.

isdmd10
Jul 10, 2012, 11:12 AM
What the world needs is more standards and compliance bodies that limit our behavior and decisions, even in how we design our products.

Yeah. Innovation and freedom suck.

bedifferent
Jul 10, 2012, 11:13 AM
Whoa.

I know S.F. is very eco-conscious, they just passed a law requiring composting alongside recycling bins (which I give them major credit for implementing). This is interesting.

Mattie Num Nums
Jul 10, 2012, 11:13 AM
It does sadden me to hear the stereotypical "We're American and rich and should be able to do as we dam well like, and sod the environment" type of comments a few on these forums are saying.

You should hear kids these days. They think they deserve everything for free.

Whoa.

I know S.F. is very eco-conscious, they just passed a law requiring composting alongside recycling bins (which I give them major credit for implementing). This is interesting.

I think SF ids a $%#^#bag with all of their crazy left wing rules but environmental stuff is a necessity these days. Downtown Long Beach is also pretty good with recycling and cleaning. Its nice to see clean streets these days.

WestonHarvey1
Jul 10, 2012, 11:13 AM
It does sadden me to hear the stereotypical "We're American and rich and should be able to do as we dam well like, and sod the environment" type of comments a few on these forums are saying.

Yes, we should be allowed to have products that push the boundaries of design, and not saddle ourselves with stagnant technology because of someone's silly ideas about everything needing to come apart with a screwdriver.

jarednt1
Jul 10, 2012, 11:13 AM
The problem with environmentalism is, its biggest supporters are IDIOTS! Good for Apple, EPEAT is equivalent to the mob (just paying protection money).

drewyboy
Jul 10, 2012, 11:13 AM
You should hear kids these days. They think they deserve everything for free.

That's because of parenting... or the lack there of.

KnightWRX
Jul 10, 2012, 11:14 AM
Oh come on.....it's not even subtle. You have the director of SF's Dept of the Environment talking about how disappointed she is in Apple.

Well considering she's responsible for the city following environnemental guidelines which include buying EPEAT certified gear... what exactly are you trying to say about her ? Subtle what ?

She's not criticizing Apple, she's simply stating the obvious : they can't buy Apple gear anymore.

It's not because she really hates iOS 6.

It's probably not no, since this has nothing to do with iOS 6.

Rocketman
Jul 10, 2012, 11:14 AM
They can buy 1-2 year old Macs in the mean time. Apple clearly is going to more all-in-one type designs and EPEAT is contrary to that. The rule to use EPEAT qualified "equipment" is fine, but Apple's computers are consumer devices or appliances now. They are EOLing all their "equipment". The rule itself needs to be changed because the way Apple approaches it is "more green", but with a different methodology than mandated by EPEAT.

Rocketman

bedifferent
Jul 10, 2012, 11:14 AM
Yeah. Innovation and freedom suck.

Tell that to the automotive and oil and gas industries that have stifled innovation away from the combustion engine. We have made major advances in technology in the past 5 years alone, yet a century later we're still using the same engine Ford "borrowed" from a German engineer. Doesn't add up.

ugahairydawgs
Jul 10, 2012, 11:15 AM
It does sadden me to hear the stereotypical "We're American and rich and should be able to do as we dam well like, and sod the environment" type of comments a few on these forums are saying.

Nobody is saying that. The environment is obviously important. But the bullying tactics used by environmentalists in an attempt to hit some arbitrary standard just rubs some people the wrong way.

By the way....Americans don't use the phrase "sod the environment". Unless that has to do with laying new grass. Which contextually doesn't fit.

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 11:15 AM
What I find amusing are all the justifications.

If Apple leaves EPEAT - it's good for Apple because what real difference does it mean for the environment what Apple does or does not do compared to others.

Conversely - when it comes to human work conditions in China - Apple doing just a little bit more than others is touted as praiseworthy.


It seems that some people will be able to praise Apple no matter whether they are doing more or less than others. Clearly whatever Apple decides is what's best for everyone? :confused:

San Francisco - despite what you might say about their economics or whatever - was right in stating that they won't support the purchasing of Apple laptops and desktops. If their policies dictate that these devices must comply with EPEAT then they had no choice lest they look two-faced about it.

Just like if there were enterprise issues either for a government or private company that prevented them from using a particular phone/OS. No different.

When your values and mandates are clear - decisions are easy.

faroZ06
Jul 10, 2012, 11:16 AM
The problem with environmentalism is, its biggest supporters are IDIOTS! Good for Apple, EPEAT is equivalent to the mob (just paying protection money).

I agree, but I still don't think this was a good move. Maybe other companies could do this, but Apple is too big and targetable by media and ignorant people (many think that Macs can't right-click). If this becomes a big news story, it's going to hurt.

KnightWRX
Jul 10, 2012, 11:16 AM
Yes, we should be allowed to have products that push the boundaries of design, and not saddle ourselves with stagnant technology because of someone's silly ideas about everything needing to come apart with a screwdriver.

No one is disallowing products that push the boundaries of design. Where are you getting this stuff ? :confused:

rhett7660
Jul 10, 2012, 11:17 AM
Way to go Apple!

Just because you have a bunch of cash does not make you right!

I like the old Apple, they tried to play well with everyone.

When was this??????

JayLenochiniMac
Jul 10, 2012, 11:17 AM
IT departments will rejoice. Pretty much all intranets are Windows based and IT departments usually don't like Macs because they complicate things for them, mainly support.
This is most certainly the case here since only a small portion of the PC's used are Macs

This is absolutely true. My workplace's IT department tried unsuccessfully to ban Macs several years ago.

rhett7660
Jul 10, 2012, 11:17 AM
Well considering Apple product suck to maintain in the IT world not a really issue.

Apple Enterprise/IT support makes crap look good.



Snip

How so? Please do tell.

davjaxn
Jul 10, 2012, 11:20 AM
Didn't you read that only 1-2% of SF computers are Apple, your comment makes no sense

Makes sense to that 1-2%.

faroZ06
Jul 10, 2012, 11:20 AM
I think SF ids a $%#^#bag with all of their crazy left wing rules but environmental stuff is a necessity these days. Downtown Long Beach is also pretty good with recycling and cleaning. Its nice to see clean streets these days.

I've been to SF. The pedestrians always block traffic and don't care about anyone but themselves. It reminds me of the hippies in Venice Beach.

ugahairydawgs
Jul 10, 2012, 11:20 AM
Well considering she's responsible for the city following environnemental guidelines which include buying EPEAT certified gear... what exactly are you trying to say about her ? Subtle what ?

She's not criticizing Apple, she's simply stating the obvious : they can't buy Apple gear anymore.


Seriously? Her first call was to the Wall Street Journal. The city government wanted this out there to serve as a not so subtle backhand to Apple. If she wasn't trying to criticize she wouldn't have done press on it. She would have issued her directive to department heads to inform them of the ban on new Apple purchases.

Instead...she went a different route. It's definitely her prerogative to do so (and probably a sign that she is doing her job right), but lets not act like the use of the media here was not intentional.

LaDirection
Jul 10, 2012, 11:20 AM
Idiots!

Why? They should not uphold environmental standards because it may hurt fanboys?

johncrab
Jul 10, 2012, 11:21 AM
This is another spin on the ISO scam in which a nothing of an administrative body gets to throw roadblocks in the way of a manufacturer while getting paid to do so. Back in the 90's everyone went apes**t over ISO certs. Gotta have 'em or you can't sell here. We only buy stuff with an ISO XXXY stamp. Now you never even hear it mentioned. It was found to be useless and worthless and the scam it is. This is just another that seeks to hold everyone to a lowest common denominator and get paid for doing so.

With a major player like Apple pulling out of EPEAT, it won't be long. Tick-tock.

gccumber
Jul 10, 2012, 11:21 AM
so let me get this straight... San Francisco wont let public employees buy Apples computers because Apple doesnt agree with epeat's design requirements? This makes zero sense. Its like saying "We arent gonna eat bacon because its too damn delicious!" its nonsense! "We arent gonna use Apple's products because they are designed too well!"

Also bacon is delicious, so you should never turn it down.

WestonHarvey1
Jul 10, 2012, 11:22 AM
No one is disallowing products that push the boundaries of design. Where are you getting this stuff ? :confused:

When compliance bodies gain significant market share, (or when compliance laws exist at all) they effectively shut possibilities out by limiting what companies can do.

PCI compliance, HIPAA, Sarbanes, whatever. If your company is affected by any of these, you have severe limitations on what products you can use in-house, what processes you can use, etc.

EPEAT may not be a big deal today, but if it managed to entrench itself in enough places, products like the retina MBP simply couldn't find a large enough market to justify its existence.

isdmd10
Jul 10, 2012, 11:22 AM
This is terrifying news for the future of the Mac.

Quite the opposite. Sounds like terrifying news for EPEAT.

faroZ06
Jul 10, 2012, 11:23 AM
hey moan and groaners, recycle your crap at the apple store and they'll do it responsibly. how about the tons of broken dells, hp's, asus' that I see in the dumpsters? So much for standards at that point hu???

Edit: The point is, any electronic device can be responsibly recycled... it's up to the owner to do so. No "guidelines" can do this.

This^

This story is BS. I was hoping that the "green" trend ended in 2009. I guess people still follow anything labeled "green". I saw an ad that said "Check out these green products!!" and showed me DVDs and random stuff.

KnightWRX
Jul 10, 2012, 11:23 AM
When compliance bodies gain significant market share, (or when compliance laws exist at all) they effectively shut possibilities out by limiting what companies can do.

PCI compliance, HIPAA, Sarbanes, whatever. If your company is affected by any of these, you have severe limitations on what products you can use in-house, what processes you can use, etc.

EPEAT may not be a big deal today, but if it managed to entrench itself in enough places, products like the retina MBP simply couldn't find a large enough market to justify its existence.

These don't affect the consumer market as far as I can see and Apple products are targetted at the consumer market. Thus you're just being overly paranoid.

faroZ06
Jul 10, 2012, 11:24 AM
Quite the opposite. Sounds like terrifying news for EPEAT.

It will hurt both.

gnasher729
Jul 10, 2012, 11:25 AM
San Francisco e-waste is recycled in the US. It doesn't go to China. Same with most other municipalities in the Bay Area.

In which case obviously the EPEAT rules don't matter. EPEAT rules (can be taken apart by hand, or with commonly available tools) don't matter if you send the stuff to some recycler who knows what they are doing.


No, unfortunately they aren't guaranteed that Apple will recycle everything properly because of the way the new retina MBPs are put together. For one thing, the battery is literally glued onto the motherboard and cannot be safely removed.

And you should know this is total nonsense. Apple will replace the batter for $199 - how do you think that is done if it cannot be safely removed? Here is what actually happened:

1. iFixIt finds it harder to fix the new Retina MBP - therefore they declare it "unrepairable".
2. iFixIt cannot sell you battery replacement - therefore they declare that the battery cannot be safely removed.
3. iFixIt is too stupid to realise that the glass on the Retina MBP is part of the LCD display and not covering, and as a result break the display while trying to remove the glass - therefore they declare that the LCD screen cannot be fixed.
4. Someone asked their "friends in the electronic recycling industry" who told them they didn't know how to recycle the Retina MBP LCD screen - therefore, it cannot be recycled. (Usually, when I tell my boss I don't know how to do something the very next thing I tell him is that I will find out how to do it. And you bet that is what Apple's recyclers are doing).


hey moan and groaners, recycle your crap at the apple store and they'll do it responsibly. how about the tons of broken dells, hp's, asus' that I see in the dumpsters? So much for standards at that point hu???

In the UK, Apple will take your broken Dell, HP or Asus computer back when you buy a Mac.

KnightWRX
Jul 10, 2012, 11:25 AM
Seriously? Her first call was to the Wall Street Journal. The city government wanted this out there to serve as a not so subtle backhand to Apple. If she wasn't trying to criticize she wouldn't have done press on it. She would have issued her directive to department heads to inform them of the ban on new Apple purchases.

Instead...she went a different route. It's definitely her prerogative to do so (and probably a sign that she is doing her job right), but lets not act like the use of the media here was not intentional.

Maybe it was intentional in getting Apple to go back to EPEAT for Macs so the city can keep buying them ? As she stated even ... ?

Why must you paint her as evil ?

Gubbz
Jul 10, 2012, 11:25 AM
I don't see the issue. GreenPeace obviously don't seem to recognise this EPEAT as viable as GreenPeace often are giving Apple grief. If the GreenPeace terrorists are quiet, then paying money for a token certification isn't any loss... EPEAT comes across as powerful as a no-body doing a 2-day course on Word and claiming that they are then qualified IT... A bit pointless and not worth the paper the certificate is printed on.

faroZ06
Jul 10, 2012, 11:25 AM
so let me get this straight... San Francisco wont let public employees buy Apples computers because Apple doesnt agree with epeat's design requirements? This makes zero sense. Its like saying "We arent gonna eat bacon because its too **** delicious!" its nonsense! "We arent gonna use Apple's products because they are designed too well!"

Also bacon is delicious, so you should never turn it down.

No, it's more like saying "I don't really like bacon, so nobody in my company should be allowed to eat it at work."

I actually don't like bacon that much, but it's still good.

Rodimus Prime
Jul 10, 2012, 11:25 AM
Regarding the "3x" claim, there's still the fact that you cannot find an all-in-one PC that matches even the core specs of CPU, RAM, graphics, etc for $400.

More broadly, many features don't show up in spec sheets but are part of the product. The footprint and weight. The aesthetics. How easy it is to tilt the monitor.

What value do you assign to the audio jack that's compatible with iPhone earbud controls? $50? If you use it all the time it's certainly worth that much.

Again core specs are generally over kill for what it will be used for so it goes back to extra crap category.
Aesthetics are a meh in the office world and you will be hard press to find a monitor system that does not tilt and often times it is easier to find a system that the monitor can be adjusted up and down virtual along with tilt. Something Apple iMacs do not do as all they can do is tilt.

All you need is an audio out point. Volume is easy to control from the computer so not a good case.

foodog
Jul 10, 2012, 11:26 AM
Didn't you read that only 1-2% of SF computers are Apple, your comment makes no sense

Really so end users being given a completely different computing experience will cause no issues for IT? Au Contraire.

faroZ06
Jul 10, 2012, 11:26 AM
In which case obviously the EPEAT rules don't matter. EPEAT rules (can be taken apart by hand, or with commonly available tools) don't matter if you send the stuff to some recycler who knows what they are doing.

Even worse, taxpayers pay for EPEAT.

WestonHarvey1
Jul 10, 2012, 11:26 AM
These don't affect the consumer market as far as I can see and Apple products are targetted at the consumer market. Thus you're just being overly paranoid.

Overly paranoid, sure. But is it impossible to imagine that some senator will someday look at EPEAT and say "This would be great if it were a law"?

macnchiefs
Jul 10, 2012, 11:27 AM
Here is the tone of this forum

As long as Apple meets EPEAT requirements - EPEAT is wonderful!
As long as Apple does not meet EPEAT requirements - EPEAT is worthless!

... same ol' drivel being spewed out here.

It's too bad they pulled out of EPEAT, hopefully they are still going to be doing their own recycling program since so they have been so pro environment as of late. But as always it would be nice IF APPLE WOULD COMMENT ON THE MATTER. Which they never do. And in this case unless they have a suitable replacement in place it's probably best to keep your mouth shut.

Both sides lose from a PR perspective as far as I'm concerned.

autrefois
Jul 10, 2012, 11:27 AM
I sure hope the San Francisco government blocks all tablet and smartphone purchases too, since they wouldn't be able to pass EPEAT rules.

Oh, wait. EPEAT specifically excludes tablets and smart phones from their list of non-approved devices (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/07/apple-pulls-products-from-environmental-epeat-registry/) since they have no chance of passing? Not being able to pass is apparently a reason to give it a pass? Cool.

So when a laptop can't be taken apart it's a problem, but when a tablet can't be taken apart is all ok because those are different words.

Just making sure I'm clear. So, San Francisco government, all your Blackberries, iPhones, and Android phones are safe just because "laptop" and "cell phone" sound different when you say them. Close call, San Francisco government!

You seem to be confused. Apple made a decision to change a computer (Macbook Pro) that was certified by EPEAT, environmentally friendly and fairly easy to service, to one that now is not meeting EPEAT standards, is less environmentally responsible and much less easy to repair.

Plus, Apple has announced they're withdrawing all of their computers from the EPEAT certification program all together, which seems to be a pretty obvious indication of what direction their other computers are going to go. So San Francisco is no longer buying their computers.

Did the Blackberries, iPhones, Androids, and tablets you mentioned used to meet the EPEAT standards, and now their respective companies are going out of their way to make them worse for the environment? No. There are no EPEAT smartphone or tablet devices, so San Francisco has no choice in the matter.

Apple used to make EPEAT-compliant computers. They've announced that they're no longer going to do so. San Francisco wants to stop buying their computers from Apple. Pretty straight-forward to me...

RedCroissant
Jul 10, 2012, 11:27 AM
Maybe this will get me down-voted along with others but what is the crime or problem with Apple removing their products from the EPEAT list when they are aware that those very products do not meet the requirements of the program? That seems very reasonable and responsible to me.

What is unreasonable is San Francisco officials' stance on this that compels them to make such an announcement in order to force compliance to a standard that Apple has already acknowledged that its products do not meet.

My guess is that there will be a newer and updated recyclability standard that will see Apple taking control of recycling its own products. Who better to take apart and recycle products that the company itself designed and assembled? Would anyone see Dell, HP, Vizio, or any of the other companies doing this?

As another poster stated and something that I have noticed as well, I see plenty of Windows PC components in dumpsters all the time.

This policy also does not say that Apple suddenly cares less for the protection of the environment than other companies whose products are still certified, it just means that they're moving in a different direction.

faroZ06
Jul 10, 2012, 11:30 AM
Again core specs are generally over kill for what it will be used for so it goes back to extra crap category.
Aesthetics are a meh in the office world and you will be hard press to find a monitor system that does not tilt and often times it is easier to find a system that the monitor can be adjusted up and down virtual along with tilt. Something Apple iMacs do not do as all they can do is tilt.

All you need is an audio out point. Volume is easy to control from the computer so not a good case.

The iMac G4 sounds like a good office computer. I'd actually use one if all I'm doing is basic stuff.

----------

Here is the tone of this forum

As long as Apple meets EPEAT requirements - EPEAT is wonderful!
As long as Apple does not meet EPEAT requirements - EPEAT is worthless!

... same ol' drivel being spewed out here.

It's too bad they pulled out of EPEAT, hopefully they are still going to be doing their own recycling program since so they have been so pro environment as of late. But as always it would be nice IF APPLE WOULD COMMENT ON THE MATTER. Which they never do. And in this case unless they have a suitable replacement in place it's probably best to keep your mouth shut.

Both sides lose from a PR perspective as far as I'm concerned.

Apple normally comments on these things. They commented on their shunning of Flash and the iPhone 4's alleged antenna problem, the two most published Apple-related stories.

And I've never heard anyone praise EPEAT. I don't even like the idea of these useless things that we have to pay for.

Bubba Satori
Jul 10, 2012, 11:30 AM
Welcome to the law of unintended consequences and the fascist nanny state.
People tried to warn you and now it's too late.
Look what all that bragging about how green and morally superior Apple was
with their uber-enlightened environmental consciousness got them.
Be careful what you ask for. It's only going to get worse.
The road to serfdom is paved with good intentions.

Has Al Gore hoisted himself on his own petard yet?

unlimitedx
Jul 10, 2012, 11:30 AM
Local governments can barely balance their budgets and they are buying apple products?

gccumber
Jul 10, 2012, 11:30 AM
No, it's more like saying "I don't really like bacon, so nobody in my company should be allowed to eat it at work."

I actually don't like bacon that much, but it's still good.

all things Apple aside... Ya dont like bacon that much? :confused:

foodog
Jul 10, 2012, 11:32 AM
IT departments will rejoice. Pretty much all intranets are Windows based and IT departments usually don't like Macs because they complicate things for them, mainly support.
This is most certainly the case here since only a small portion of the PC's used are Macs

Maybe at the announcement but not after figuring out it causes more issues than it solved.

isdmd10
Jul 10, 2012, 11:32 AM
Local governments can barely balance their budgets and they are buying apple products?

As you can see from this news the decision-making process within government is severely flawed.

apolloa
Jul 10, 2012, 11:34 AM
But but but but but look at it's revolutionary display and it's ultra thin design!!!

ardy8888
Jul 10, 2012, 11:34 AM
Didn't you read that only 1-2% of SF computers are Apple, your comment makes no sense

Yes, 1-2% of SF computers are Apple. According to the article, that's 500-700 computers. A migration of that size to a new platform will certainly be painful. Granted, not as painful as all of SF's computers, but still painful to the teams that need to deal with it.

You saying that someone else's comment makes no sense is what actually makes no sense.

lilo777
Jul 10, 2012, 11:35 AM
And I've never heard anyone praise EPEAT. I don't even like the idea of these useless things that we have to pay for.

Well, Apple did praise EPEAT (until recently). Here is a quote from Apple press release (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/02/24Apple-Updates-MacBook-Pro-with-Next-Generation-Processors-Graphics-Thunderbolt-I-O-Technology.html)(2011):

As the industry’s greenest notebook lineup, every Mac notebook achieves EPEAT Gold status and meets Energy Star 5.0 requirements, setting the standard for environmentally friendly notebook design.

rendevouspoo
Jul 10, 2012, 11:35 AM
Apple will replace the batter for $199

That's insane.

ardy8888
Jul 10, 2012, 11:36 AM
Local governments can barely balance their budgets and they are buying apple products?

Of course they are. If they need more money, they'll just hike up the sales or property tax rate. There doesn't seem to be much budget cutting at any level in our government

basesloaded190
Jul 10, 2012, 11:37 AM
Given that its very clear that Apple no longer wish to be in the desktop/laptop market I dont see this as a problem for them. All they care about now is iOS and the AppStore. Everything else is secondary.

As far as Apple is concerned, they are only maintaining OS X to allow for development of iOS apps.

Edit Guessing the downvotes are from people who dont want to believe that this is happening. Open your damn eyes... :rolleyes:

So the MBP with a retina display and upgrading laptops with the latest hardware means Apple has no desire to sell computers anymore?

Open your damn eyes.

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 11:38 AM
so let me get this straight... San Francisco wont let public employees buy Apples computers because Apple doesnt agree with epeat's design requirements? This makes zero sense. Its like saying "We arent gonna eat bacon because its too damn delicious!" its nonsense! "We arent gonna use Apple's products because they are designed too well!"

Also bacon is delicious, so you should never turn it down.

They can buy as many Apple computers as they want. Just not with government funds.

Maybe it was intentional in getting Apple to go back to EPEAT for Macs so the city can keep buying them ? As she stated even ... ?

Why must you paint her as evil ?

Who says they made the call at all. Maybe the reporter called the city (and maybe others) to find out how this would play out with Apple's EPEAT withdrawal and the representative answered the questions asked.

Did it say that the CIO Journal was contacted by the city? I'm pretty sure it didn't.

isdmd10
Jul 10, 2012, 11:38 AM
Well, Apple did praise EPEAT (until recently). Here is a quote from Apple press release (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/02/24Apple-Updates-MacBook-Pro-with-Next-Generation-Processors-Graphics-Thunderbolt-I-O-Technology.html)(2011):

As the industry’s greenest notebook lineup, every Mac notebook achieves EPEAT Gold status and meets Energy Star 5.0 requirements, setting the standard for environmentally friendly notebook design.


That just sounds like any other pandering marketing nonsense, just like pasting "4G" everywhere for anyone who will eat it up.

joseph2166
Jul 10, 2012, 11:39 AM
Given that its very clear that Apple no longer wish to be in the desktop/laptop market I dont see this as a problem for them. All they care about now is iOS and the AppStore. Everything else is secondary.

As far as Apple is concerned, they are only maintaining OS X to allow for development of iOS apps.

Edit Guessing the downvotes are from people who dont want to believe that this is happening. Open your damn eyes... :rolleyes:

Its a case of what are the Romans doing for us? NOTHING.

... The Mac App Store?

What?

The Mac App Store

Well yes obviously the Mac App Store.

... And Mountain Lion.

Well yes, that goes without saying!

... And retina MacBook Pros?

Alright I'll grant you the Mac App Store, Mountain Lion and the retina MacBook Pros. Apart from those. What is Apple doing for the Mac? NOTHING

MarcelV
Jul 10, 2012, 11:39 AM
What the world needs is more standards and compliance bodies that limit our behavior and decisions, even in how we design our products.Because that's all that matters, the look. We don't need to care that we destroy this blue planet in the mean time, right? I love to have my kids a healthy and prosperous future. One that is maintainable for generations past them. But yeah, that is just 'green' talk. The previous machines from the same Apple were good looking to, and adhered to the standards they even helped to create. It can go hand-in-hand...

MachineCode101
Jul 10, 2012, 11:40 AM
Snipping from*https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3969566?start=0&tstart=0 "Adobe was unable to provide a product that was suitable to the needs of battery powered mobile devices used for Internet browsing. Existing Flash technology used too much memory, ate battery life, and was buggy...*Apple's Steve Jobs led the escape from Flash dependency when Apple introduced the iPhone, and later introduced the iPad. There was a hue and cry over the omission. Time proved Jobs was right on target.*So this is why there is no Flash for your iPhone or iPad or iPod nor for most SmartPhones. Flash has been abandoned by many sites in favor of supported technologies such as HTML5 or by providing their own custom app."

Apple created the ultrabook in their Air, and everyone followed. Before others get there they will refine components and produce something thinner, cheaper, faster. All will follow if they want to compete in that consumer space which will eventually inform the enterprise market through perhaps win8 hate, web apps, user choice, byod, etc.*

Regardless of their shade of green Apple dumped EPEAT and others may soon follow with all of their respective fleets, if they too hope for the massive profits.*For Apple it is a good business decision.

Mindful that tablets are not EPEAT cert and are becoming ever more prevalent, EPEAT will need to accept and evolve or continue serving a reducing enterprise market.

Small White Car
Jul 10, 2012, 11:42 AM
You seem to be confused.

As are you.

You explained a bunch of stuff to me that didn't contradict my post or my point. Everything you said fits with what I said. And yet you're acting like you disagree with me for some reason.

Not sure what you're trying to say to me.

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 11:44 AM
A reminder to people that the city is not banning the computers from being purchased. They are not going to allow them to be purchased with government funds. Please note the difference.

And note that it's not any different than any private company saying that they will only reimburse for purchases of X products or X services based on whatever criteria they set up.

No one's rights to use whatever computer they want are being violated - so some people should stop acting like Marshall law has taken over northern California and have prevented Apple from doing business.

MuppetGate
Jul 10, 2012, 11:46 AM
No, unfortunately they aren't guaranteed that Apple will recycle everything properly because of the way the new retina MBPs are put together. For one thing, the battery is literally glued onto the motherboard and cannot be safely removed. More info at iFixIt (http://ifixit.org/2884/apple-ditches-green-standard-cuts-off-federal-agencies-from-apple-products/) and this thread (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/07/apple-pulls-products-from-environmental-epeat-registry/) on Macrumors.


If the batteries cannot be removed, then how can Apple sell battery replacements?

http://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro/service/battery/

SVTVenom
Jul 10, 2012, 11:47 AM
Well, for most Office work, Windows PCs still fare well enough at much lower prices than Macs (yeah, I'm a Mac enthusiast but also a taxpayer). So I don't mind governmental agencies not buying Macs.

Agreed. Much like I'd rather pay for a government official to drive around in a Crown Vic rather than an Audi A8.

bedifferent
Jul 10, 2012, 11:47 AM
A reminder to people that the city is not banning the computers from being purchased. They are not going to allow them to be purchased with government funds. Please note the difference.

And note that it's not any different than any private company saying that they will only reimburse for purchases of X products or X services based on whatever criteria they set up.

No one's rights to use whatever computer they want are being violated - so some people should stop acting like Marshall law has taken over northern California and have prevented Apple from doing business.

Well stated.

On another note, this does present a quandary. As Apple is producing more popular tech that seems to be dictating market trends (ex. the MacBook Air with ultra-books, tablets, etc), do groups such as EPEAT modify their policies or do companies modify their products? It's tantamount to "checkmate", and whomever gives first may dictate future policy (?).

Lennholm
Jul 10, 2012, 11:48 AM
Maybe at the announcement but not after figuring out it causes more issues than it solved.

What issues would that be?

dtaylor322
Jul 10, 2012, 11:49 AM
I love the current MacBook Pro design because it's so incredibly easy to repair and upgrade.

I HATE the MacBook Pro Retina design because it's impossible to repair or upgrade, and this is why Apple is dropping EPEAT.

The MacBook Pros are already incredibly light and thin. I don't need to shave another few ounces or mm's off my MacBook. I do need Ethernet and an optical drive. And most importantly, I demand a computer I can upgrade.

We don't need two MacBook Air lines. Apple needs to back off the new Pro design and revert to the old. They'll never listen to emails from people like me. Maybe they will listen to lost sales.

I only wish some of their largest corporate and educational customers would announce the same and FORCE Apple to drop the current Retina design, make all their designs upgradable, and return to EPEAT.

Xtremehkr
Jul 10, 2012, 11:50 AM
Apple still takes an environmentally friendly design approach, especially when it comes to power management and use. The environmental aspects in their designs is prominently displayed on the product pages.

http://www.apple.com/imac/environment.html

This seems to be more about freedom of design, and being able to construct computers that continue to push the limits of size and form, which conflicts with making things easy to disassemble at their end of their product life.

The RMBP is not easy to take apart, but it wouldn't be as slim as it is if it adhered to these standards. Apple's decision with the RMBP has also infuriated many 'techies' who feel that computers should be built for their convenience. The same complaint was made of the iPhone not having a removable battery, it hasn't been that big of a deal.

Apple's consumer base has changed significantly over the years but their core values are in place. Product design should be focused on what it will be used for during its life cycle, not for the relatively unrelated matter of disassembly at the end of a products life.

Recycling technology could improve significantly and probably has over the years, I can't imagine with all of the millions of computers sold every year that they're all eventually hand disassembled at the end of the product life.

I HATE the MacBook Pro Retina design because it's impossible to repair or upgrade, and this is why Apple is dropping EPEAT.

Maybe it's just me but not that many people upgrade their laptops. Even with upgradable parts the processor will eventually age to the point where it's just not worth the effort. The vast majority of people will only ever install more RAM and then use their computers until they die, seriously, the vast majority.

I've rather have a 0.76" thin notebook.

ugahairydawgs
Jul 10, 2012, 11:50 AM
Maybe it was intentional in getting Apple to go back to EPEAT for Macs so the city can keep buying them ? As she stated even ... ?

Why must you paint her as evil ?

I don't paint her as evil. I think she is just doing her job.

I'm just saying that your assertion that she isn't trying to put pressure on Apple here is just not accurate.

thejadedmonkey
Jul 10, 2012, 11:51 AM
How so? Please do tell. [why macs in a business environment are a bad idea]

Back when Leopard came out, there was a bug in how it handled file sharing. This bug would prevent PC's from showing up in the sidebar.

My company needed a computer, and the person requested a mac. So we bought a mac mini. I Set it up, and couldn't see any PC's unless we typed the IP address in manually using.. cmd+K I believe?

I called Apple up. "Yes it's a bug, no there's no known ETA until its fixed. Just install Tiger on the mac until the bug's been fixed."

Only one problem - It came pre-installed with Leopard. I can't install Tiger on it. In the end, a level 2 tech and an engineer agreed that my best course of action was to either a) type the IP address in manually, every time, which would also require re-configuring the Windows PC's to have a static IP address, or b) return the computer and wait an unknown amount of time until the bug was fixed.

In a business world, you don't have the luxury of waiting a few days or weeks or possibly months for a fix. nor do you have the luxury of buying someone's used mini off of ebay. We needed something now, and every day lost was money wasted.

I installed Windows on it, and it worked perfectly.

If you look at anything Apple has on the market now, the problems are just as glaring. If your iMac's HDD crahes, you can not swap it out yourself due to the temp sensor, you have to take it to an Apple store. What would normally be an hour of downtime while I run to Best Buy, buy a hard drive, and install the OS, just because a 2.5 hour trip, assuming Apple replaces the hard drive in my mac, on the spot. Which of course they won't. And forget about calling Apple up for a next-business day tech to come out and fix it, that's just laughable in Apple world.

Most businesses pay money for support contracts, so they're never without vital equapment. That's impossible to do when it comes to Apple. Most businesses require certain OS/Apps for compatability. That's impossible when it comes to Apple. Most businsses require support for more than a few years. That's impossible when it comes to Apple.

What I see a lot of, is people that buy Apple laptops, install VMWare or Parallels, and run Windows on the mac. But for a business, there is no reason to spend $1500 for that when a $500 Dell will work just as well, and doesn't come with the hardware caveats that the mac has.

MachineCode101
Jul 10, 2012, 11:52 AM
Well stated.

On another note, this does present a quandary. As Apple is producing more popular tech that seems to be dictating market trends (ex. the MacBook Air with ultra-books, tablets, etc), do groups such as EPEAT modify their policies or do companies modify their products? It's tantamount to "checkmate", and whomever gives first may dictate future policy (?).

Perhaps EPEAT determining design for the coming 3 years and becoming embroiled in the patent wars, might provide for exciting new changes...

WestonHarvey1
Jul 10, 2012, 11:56 AM
Because that's all that matters, the look. We don't need to care that we destroy this blue planet in the mean time, right? I love to have my kids a healthy and prosperous future. One that is maintainable for generations past them. But yeah, that is just 'green' talk. The previous machines from the same Apple were good looking to, and adhered to the standards they even helped to create. It can go hand-in-hand...

We could have saved the world, but Apple made that laptop so damned *thin*!

FakeWozniak
Jul 10, 2012, 11:57 AM
Well, for most Office work, Windows PCs still fare well enough at much lower prices than Macs (yeah, I'm a Mac enthusiast but also a taxpayer). So I don't mind governmental agencies not buying Macs.

Total Cost of Ownership

aerok
Jul 10, 2012, 11:59 AM
Wow people take it personally when Apple stops being EPEAT certified, and really go to great lengths to make everyone else be the "bad guy", just so they don't have to tarnish their opinion of Apple.

Craziness! :eek:

Very well said, it's creepy that people will defend a money-making corporation so personaly.

vampyr
Jul 10, 2012, 12:01 PM
Really? Where can I find this magical $400 all-in-one PC that has all the same features as the iMac?

Hey WestonHarvey1... I was referring to the $3000+ laptops that Apple sells.

And yes... you can find a $400 dollar PC that has the same features as an iMac.

Don't be a wise ass... it makes us Apple users look bad. :cool:

PinkyMacGodess
Jul 10, 2012, 12:02 PM
But how much would this hurt? If this would be like a democrat giving up Fox News, then it's just wind... :D

That is not meant to make light of the issues of upgradeability and recyclability... Both should weigh heavier at One Infinite Loop.

KdParker
Jul 10, 2012, 12:02 PM
This^

This story is BS. I was hoping that the "green" trend ended in 2009. I guess people still follow anything labeled "green". I saw an ad that said "Check out these green products!!" and showed me DVDs and random stuff.

What is wrong with the green trend?

bedifferent
Jul 10, 2012, 12:03 PM
In a business world, you don't have the luxury of waiting a few days or weeks or possibly months for a fix. nor do you have the luxury of buying someone's used mini off of ebay. We needed something now, and every day lost was money wasted.

I installed Windows on it, and it worked perfectly.

If you look at anything Apple has on the market now, the problems are just as glaring. If your iMac's HDD crahes, you can not swap it out yourself due to the temp sensor, you have to take it to an Apple store. What would normally be an hour of downtime while I run to Best Buy, buy a hard drive, and install the OS, just because a 2.5 hour trip, assuming Apple replaces the hard drive in my mac, on the spot. Which of course they won't. And forget about calling Apple up for a next-business day tech to come out and fix it, that's just laughable in Apple world.

Most businesses pay money for support contracts, so they're never without vital equapment. That's impossible to do when it comes to Apple. Most businesses require certain OS/Apps for compatability. That's impossible when it comes to Apple. Most businsses require support for more than a few years. That's impossible when it comes to Apple.


This is EXACTLY what I [and many others] have been stating. Businesses that jumped on the iMac bandwagon ~3 years ago and who have run out of AppleCare are especially feeling the pain. As a former Apple tech years ago before the iOS craze, iMac's are a PITA to repair. It wasn't until recently that Apple started using desktop parts in iMac's as they were based around notebook parts to fit the form factor and cooling needs. Even still, taking apart an iMac takes a very long time. Businesses that have iMac's need to have extra systems in case any part fails as the system will need to be benched, diagnosed, repaired, etc and that takes days. Apple does not loan out systems. Apple attempted a business department in their retail stores but it seems they have lost focus on it.

Bottom line: many have been clamoring for a mid-tower between a top iMac and base Mac Pro. One that doesn't break the bank and fits in the former PowerMac price range (was around ~$1500) and allowed for the purchase of one of Apple's 3 displays, all for the price of a decently equipped Mac Pro (and didn't eat into iMac sales, completely different markets). Businesses need a system that can be repaired on-site, with little down time, can be upgraded, and can be used with any display as iMac's only have one variation. It's a shame Apple is neglecting this segment, it may not be the numbers in the consumer market but businesses make up for that fact when spending thousands on system and license upgrades. It's not a "niche" market or a dead one.

Dr McKay
Jul 10, 2012, 12:03 PM
the Bad Guys use Windoze computers


Windoze? I've never heard of that brand of computers, where are they sold?

PinkyMacGodess
Jul 10, 2012, 12:04 PM
Hey WestonHarvey1... I was referring to the $3000+ laptops that Apple sells.

And yes... you can find a $400 dollar PC that has the same features as an iMac.

Don't be a wise ass... it makes us Apple users look bad. :cool:

Excluding software...:apple:

KnightWRX
Jul 10, 2012, 12:05 PM
Who says they made the call at all. Maybe the reporter called the city (and maybe others) to find out how this would play out with Apple's EPEAT withdrawal and the representative answered the questions asked.

Did it say that the CIO Journal was contacted by the city? I'm pretty sure it didn't.

Good point.

PinkyMacGodess
Jul 10, 2012, 12:05 PM
Windoze? I've never heard of that brand of computers, where are they sold?

The place where all the script kiddie worship... :D

lifeinhd
Jul 10, 2012, 12:05 PM
If they and consumers make it clear that having computers that are both environmentally-friendly and serviceable is more important than gaining a millimeter here or there on Apple's already slender and elegant products, then Apple just might rethink the direction it's going.

Nah, they don't care. They'd rather sell iPads than Macs, and iPads don't fall under EPEAT rules anyways.

...I suspect I might be downvoted for stating the truth.

KnightWRX
Jul 10, 2012, 12:06 PM
I don't paint her as evil. I think she is just doing her job.

I'm just saying that your assertion that she isn't trying to put pressure on Apple here is just not accurate.

See Samcraig's post. And I didn't say she wasn't putting pressure on Apple, I'm saying the EPEAT isn't. They establish rules, you follow them if you want to do business with organisations that have EPEAT as a requirement. Apple knew this ahead of time, and made a conscious choice to back out of EPEAT. They know what they are doing.

No one is forcing Apple to adhere to EPEAT regulations is what I'm saying.

WestonHarvey1
Jul 10, 2012, 12:08 PM
Hey WestonHarvey1... I was referring to the $3000+ laptops that Apple sells.

And yes... you can find a $400 dollar PC that has the same features as an iMac.

Don't be a wise ass... it makes us Apple users look bad. :cool:

Not being a wise ass. You're making the mistake of finding a machine, any machine, that has the same CPU and same RAM/storage capacity and declaring the Mac doesn't have any other features that justify a higher price.

vampyr
Jul 10, 2012, 12:09 PM
Excluding software...:apple:

:confused: Don't forget... we're talking about a state government agency.

rmwebs
Jul 10, 2012, 12:09 PM
Its a case of what are the Romans doing for us? NOTHING.

... The Mac App Store?

What?

The Mac App Store

Well yes obviously the Mac App Store.

... And Mountain Lion.

Well yes, that goes without saying!

... And retina MacBook Pros?

Alright I'll grant you the Mac App Store, Mountain Lion and the retina MacBook Pros. Apart from those. What is Apple doing for the Mac? NOTHING

Lets be fair here. The retina macbook pro is evolutionary. It makes sense that you'd start adding that to your product line.

Mountain Lion is an incremental update to bring OS X more in line with iOS. This is clearly leading to a universal OS some time in the future.

The Mac App Store is also part of the 'unification' of the two operating systems.

When I say Apple dont care about the Mac any more, I mean more along the lines of Apple want to phase out OS X and just have iOS devices, with an 'expanded iOS' on the laptops and desktops.

Carlanga
Jul 10, 2012, 12:09 PM
I do find it funny that if state computers are as old as federal computers then their "latest' office mac's probably could not even run Snow Leopard.

vampyr
Jul 10, 2012, 12:11 PM
Not being a wise ass. You're making the mistake of finding a machine, any machine, that has the same CPU and same RAM/storage capacity and declaring the Mac doesn't have any other features that justify a higher price.

Yes you are... a quick search on Best Buy proved my point. Heck...one of them even has a touch screen... something an iMac doesnt have and is still 50% less. How bout them Apples? ;)

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/HP+Pavilion+p2-1124+Desktop+%26+20%22+LCD-LED+Monitor+Package/9999183400050003.p?id=pcmprd182900050003&skuId=9999183400050003

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/HP+-+20%26%2334%3B+Omni+All-in-One+Computer+-+4GB+Memory+-+1TB+Hard+Drive/5563098.p?id=1218661382004&skuId=5563098

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Gateway+-+23%22+Touch-Screen+All-In-One+Computer+-+4GB+Memory+-+500GB+Hard+Drive/4388052.p?id=1218476995241&skuId=4388052

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 12:13 PM
Not being a wise ass. You're making the mistake of finding a machine, any machine, that has the same CPU and same RAM/storage capacity and declaring the Mac doesn't have any other features that justify a higher price.

Subjective completely based on what tasks are being done with the computer. It doesn't matter to a government agency if the Mac has iPhoto, iMovie, etc if the standard is Microsoft Office.

I would imagine that unless you're in a creative job in the government (don't laugh) - most of your applications are pretty vanilla and don't require the "features" a Mac has that WOULD justify a higher price. Can you name one or more that would?

GenesisST
Jul 10, 2012, 12:15 PM
Good for San Francisco. I hope more municipalities and businesses make similar announcements.

If they and consumers make it clear that having computers that are both environmentally-friendly and serviceable is more important than gaining a millimeter here or there on Apple's already slender and elegant products, then Apple just might rethink the direction it's going.

I have been buying Macs and other Apple ware for 13+ years, but this recent decision by Apple to go backwards in terms of the environmental impact of their products and actually allowing anyone other than Apple to service the machine should something need repairing (or even if you want something as simple as a RAM upgrade!) gives me serious doubts about future purchases. And based on the comments here in other threads on Macrumors and elsewhere, I'm glad to hear I'm not alone.

The sad thing is that with planned obsolescence as it is these days, even the most environmental friendly product winds up in a landfill sooner rather than later, which kind of defeats the purpose.

rhett7660
Jul 10, 2012, 12:16 PM
Back when Leopard came out, there was a bug in how it handled file sharing. This bug would prevent PC's from showing up in the sidebar.

My company needed a computer, and the person requested a mac. So we bought a mac mini. I Set it up, and couldn't see any PC's unless we typed the IP address in manually using.. cmd+K I believe?

I called Apple up. "Yes it's a bug, no there's no known ETA until its fixed. Just install Tiger on the mac until the bug's been fixed."

Only one problem - It came pre-installed with Leopard. I can't install Tiger on it. In the end, a level 2 tech and an engineer agreed that my best course of action was to either a) type the IP address in manually, every time, which would also require re-configuring the Windows PC's to have a static IP address, or b) return the computer and wait an unknown amount of time until the bug was fixed.

In a business world, you don't have the luxury of waiting a few days or weeks or possibly months for a fix. nor do you have the luxury of buying someone's used mini off of ebay. We needed something now, and every day lost was money wasted.

I installed Windows on it, and it worked perfectly.

If you look at anything Apple has on the market now, the problems are just as glaring. If your iMac's HDD crahes, you can not swap it out yourself due to the temp sensor, you have to take it to an Apple store. What would normally be an hour of downtime while I run to Best Buy, buy a hard drive, and install the OS, just because a 2.5 hour trip, assuming Apple replaces the hard drive in my mac, on the spot. Which of course they won't. And forget about calling Apple up for a next-business day tech to come out and fix it, that's just laughable in Apple world.

Most businesses pay money for support contracts, so they're never without vital equapment. That's impossible to do when it comes to Apple. Most businesses require certain OS/Apps for compatability. That's impossible when it comes to Apple. Most businsses require support for more than a few years. That's impossible when it comes to Apple.

What I see a lot of, is people that buy Apple laptops, install VMWare or Parallels, and run Windows on the mac. But for a business, there is no reason to spend $1500 for that when a $500 Dell will work just as well, and doesn't come with the hardware caveats that the mac has.

Thank you, this is what I was looking for. I was not asking to be a SA... was asking since there are quite a few IT person(s) here.

Thanks

Rogifan
Jul 10, 2012, 12:19 PM
So Apple pissed off the eco-commies in San Fran. I love it. :D

WestonHarvey1
Jul 10, 2012, 12:19 PM
Yes you are... a quick search on Best Buy proved my point. Heck...one of them even has a touch screen... something an iMac doesnt have and is still 50% less. How bout them Apples? ;)

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/HP+Pavilion+p2-1124+Desktop+%26+20%22+LCD-LED+Monitor+Package/9999183400050003.p?id=pcmprd182900050003&skuId=9999183400050003

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/HP+-+20%26%2334%3B+Omni+All-in-One+Computer+-+4GB+Memory+-+1TB+Hard+Drive/5563098.p?id=1218661382004&skuId=5563098

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Gateway+-+23%22+Touch-Screen+All-In-One+Computer+-+4GB+Memory+-+500GB+Hard+Drive/4388052.p?id=1218476995241&skuId=4388052

You found a mini tower (not an all-in-one), an all-in-one with an AMD E2-1800 and a smaller screen (that didn't quite hit the price point), and a Pentium based all-in-one (that has a bigger screen, but with the same resolution as the iMac 21.5, also over the price point)

And you'd have to give me a DISCOUNT if you wanted me to take a desktop with a touchscreen :)

unplugme71
Jul 10, 2012, 12:20 PM
This is not really that big.

Companies/Government won't spend money on new software/technology to switch over platforms. It's going to be very costly. Most likely, a lot of 'waivers' will be signed to keep the 1-2% of Macs.

This is just a scare tactic on Apple. However, Apple knows what they are doing with this. I bet by the end of the year, EPEAT will change its rules.

Ryth
Jul 10, 2012, 12:21 PM
So Apple needs to be stuck in 'design/innovation' from years ago because EPEAT recyclers are having a hard time recycling 'newer' Apple products.

Sounds like EPEAT needs to move into 2010+ and realize things are changing and that they need to upgrade their recyclers.

All Apple needs to do is just say 'Hey, send your machine back to us and we'll recycle it'...

kas23
Jul 10, 2012, 12:21 PM
Yes, we should be allowed to have products that push the boundaries of design, and not saddle ourselves with stagnant technology because of someone's silly ideas about everything needing to come apart with a screwdriver.

Please explain the advantages of using torx screws over Phillips heads? Ask yourself why Apple does this.

Rot'nApple
Jul 10, 2012, 12:22 PM
Sour grapes? They have some rules they have to follow. If a product doesn't qualify them they can't be bought.

Do these rules include voting to impeach a sitting President? (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1587880/posts) They are just a bunch of doofuses sitting on a board. No power and apparently, no common sense. With all the problems SF has, they grandstand before and they are doing it now. Insignificant specs of fly droppings if you ask me.
/
/
/

Rogifan
Jul 10, 2012, 12:24 PM
No, unfortunately they aren't guaranteed that Apple will recycle everything properly because of the way the new retina MBPs are put together. For one thing, the battery is literally glued onto the motherboard and cannot be safely removed. More info at iFixIt (http://ifixit.org/2884/apple-ditches-green-standard-cuts-off-federal-agencies-from-apple-products/) and this thread (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/07/apple-pulls-products-from-environmental-epeat-registry/) on Macrumors.

It would be annoying and petty if Apple just wanted to keep the recycling and servicing to themselves. Instead, they are making it so that more of the computer can no longer be recycled or serviced safely. But at least they gained a couple millimeters of space so they can brag that it's smaller...
So iFixit is THE authority on what can/cannot be recycled?

coolfactor
Jul 10, 2012, 12:24 PM
Given that its very clear that Apple no longer wish to be in the desktop/laptop market I dont see this as a problem for them. All they care about now is iOS and the AppStore. Everything else is secondary.

As far as Apple is concerned, they are only maintaining OS X to allow for development of iOS apps.

Edit Guessing the downvotes are from people who dont want to believe that this is happening. Open your damn eyes... :rolleyes:

In the long term, you may be right. The line between OS X and iOS will continue to blur until there is very little difference. Natural progression of technology as the world moves to mobile (truly "personal" in the sense that it's always with us) computing.

But don't count on that being their motivation for the next 10 years. OS X plays a very important role in Apple's business, and people's lives.

JAT
Jul 10, 2012, 12:25 PM
It does sadden me to hear the stereotypical "We're American and rich and should be able to do as we dam well like, and sod the environment" type of comments a few on these forums are saying.

Please copy one of these, I haven't seen one.

WestonHarvey1
Jul 10, 2012, 12:25 PM
Please explain the advantages of using torx screws over Phillips heads? Ask yourself why Apple does this.

Not really relevant. Apple would have NO screws on their products if they could, and they're getting damn close.

coolfactor
Jul 10, 2012, 12:27 PM
So Apple needs to be stuck in 'design/innovation' from years ago because EPEAT recyclers are having a hard time recycling 'newer' Apple products.

Sounds like EPEAT needs to move into 2010+ and realize things are changing and that they need to upgrade their recyclers.

All Apple needs to do is just say 'Hey, send your machine back to us and we'll recycle it'...

Apple does recycle Macs. That option exists today. I agree, EPEAT needs to be upgraded to support Apple's move towards smaller, more compact devices. Isn't that a better world anyway.... using less materials per device?

----------

It does sadden me to hear the stereotypical "We're American and rich and should be able to do as we dam well like, and sod the environment" type of comments a few on these forums are saying.

Suggestion - if you're going to make a judgement against a country, be brave enough to display your own country in your profile. :)

autrefois
Jul 10, 2012, 12:28 PM
If the batteries cannot be removed, then how can Apple sell battery replacements?

http://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro/service/battery/

In my post, I said the batteries cannot be safely removed. From iFixit (http://ifixit.org/2884/apple-ditches-green-standard-cuts-off-federal-agencies-from-apple-products/)

Electronics recyclers need to take out hazardous components such as batteries before sending computers through their shredders, because batteries can catch fire when punctured.

That’s why it’s such a problem when manufacturers glue batteries into place with industrial-strength adhesive. When we originally tore down the Retina MacBook Pro, we could not separate the battery from the upper case. The next day, after a lot of elbow grease, we were finally able to get them apart—but in the process punctured the battery, leaking hazardous goo all over.

I'm not saying that Apple doesn't have some way to remove the battery, just that from reports I've seen it is not safely or easily done as compared to other laptop batteries. I don't repair computers, but I have yet to see anyone who does say that this will be a good move in terms of reparability. (Not to mention Apple is charging $199 to replace the battery.)

As are you.

You explained a bunch of stuff to me that didn't contradict my post or my point. Everything you said fits with what I said. And yet you're acting like you disagree with me for some reason.

Not sure what you're trying to say to me.

So when you said, "I sure hope the San Francisco government blocks all tablet and smartphone purchases too, since they wouldn't be able to pass EPEAT rules," you were being serious? It seemed to me the point of your post was to sarcastically mock San Francisco for dropping Macs while keeping other non-compliant EPEAT devices in other categories (that "sound different when you say them") for which no EPEAT standards exist.

If you were being serious, then I'm glad to hear we agree that San Francisco's decision made sense. Does this mean you not only applaud San Francisco for their decision to eliminate MacBook Pros until they are again EPEAT compliant (or better), but also further call on SF to adopt more eco-friendly smartphones and tablets?

kas23
Jul 10, 2012, 12:28 PM
Not really relevant. Apple would have NO screws on their products if they could, and they're getting damn close.

Not really revelant. Apple DOES have screws in their laptops, so why not just use standard head screws?

jmgregory1
Jul 10, 2012, 12:29 PM
Thank you, this is what I was looking for. I was not asking to be a SA... was asking since there are quite a few IT person(s) here.

Thanks

The above note sounds more like a tech person justifying his job and providing himself with job security.

And as Apple does move further into enterprise, whether it's by Apple's doing or enterprise working to implement iPad/iPhone apps into their systems, things will change. That's the thing that people in the pc world seem to forget. Change happens. Just like those that complained when Apple ditched the floppy. I'm already hearing the screams from those complaining about lack of cd/dvd drives or how it makes no sense to switch from hdd to ssd.

This is where Apple just flat out embarrasses every other pc maker. They push forward even when an advancement seems to be hard to swallow.

And the EPEAT crap is just that - crap. Apple's moved forward, the certification has not. And how about looking at the real world life span of an Apple computer compared to a pc. I went through 3 pc's at work in the time that I had one Mac Pro at home - and the Pro is still going after 6 years. No, it didn't run the crappy MS program the company was using - thank god. Tech people need to raise their expectations for both software and hardware or Apple is going to eat their lunch.

unplugme71
Jul 10, 2012, 12:34 PM
Not really revelant. Apple DOES have screws in their laptops, so why not just use standard head screws?

because its easier to remove. customer could break it. apple refuses warranty. customer complains.

or customer removes part, and doesn't environmentally dispose of it properly.

mex4eric
Jul 10, 2012, 12:36 PM
So Apple needs to be stuck in 'design/innovation' from years ago because EPEAT recyclers are having a hard time recycling 'newer' Apple products.

Sounds like EPEAT needs to move into 2010+ and realize things are changing and that they need to upgrade their recyclers.

All Apple needs to do is just say 'Hey, send your machine back to us and we'll recycle it'...

Amen! Letting unimaginative EPEAT bureaucrats run the purchasing departments of unimaginative government agencies sounds just peachy.

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 12:36 PM
That's the thing that people in the pc world seem to forget. Change happens. Just like those that complained when Apple ditched the floppy. I'm already hearing the screams from those complaining about lack of cd/dvd drives or how it makes no sense to switch from hdd to ssd.

This is where Apple just flat out embarrasses every other pc maker. They push forward even when an advancement seems to be hard to swallow.


Ironic - since most Apple fans base everything Microsoft does on the past (and nearly any competitor) and forgets that things can and do change.

I agree that things change. For everyone and everything. And everyone here would be better for it to remember that it applies all around.

Idefix
Jul 10, 2012, 12:37 PM
It's funny, but nobody's asking why Apple would pull already certified computers out of ePEAT? Why not just leave those computers as is?

The only logical reason I can think of is that Apple's projected new lineup this fall would not qualify for ePEAT, which would lead to an enormous contrast, followed by enormous bad publicity about every single new model.

Apple doesn't like bad publicity of that sort.

Can anybody think of a good reason? Would the unrepairable Ret-MBP qualify for ePEAT?

Apple is moving towards treating new laptops as if they were toasters (expensive toasters). If anything goes wrong under warranty on your RMBP, Apple isn't going to fix it--Apple's going to give you a refurbished RMBP.

Toaster in, refurbished toaster out, bad toaster sent back to wherever.

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 12:38 PM
Amen! Letting unimaginative EPEAT bureaucrats run the purchasing departments of unimaginative government agencies sounds just peachy.

You have it backwards. EPEAT sets a standard and they don't force any company to adhere to it NOR do they enforce who chooses to use them as a standard.

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

pimentoLoaf
Jul 10, 2012, 12:39 PM
Time for EPEAT to grow up and evolve their philosophy. Why should Apple (or any other company) follow someone else's design concepts just because it exists? Technology moves on, but EPEAT wants to stifle innovation over fear.

WestonHarvey1
Jul 10, 2012, 12:39 PM
Not really revelant. Apple DOES have screws in their laptops, so why not just use standard head screws?

1. Obviously they would prefer most people have upgrades done by Apple
2. The pentalobular (not torx) screws are much prettier than the antiquated Phillips heads, and Apple cares about how the mostly unseen parts of their products look

You can actually find the screwdrivers now, by the way.

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 12:42 PM
EPEAT wants to stifle innovation over fear.

Are you serious? Where do you find evidence of the first part of your assertion let alone the latter?

steveh
Jul 10, 2012, 12:46 PM
Given that its very clear that Apple no longer wish to be in the desktop/laptop market I dont see this as a problem for them.

Riiiiiiight.

That explains the introduction of the rMBP and updated MBA line.

scfc
Jul 10, 2012, 12:46 PM
I'm long time Apple user, but I do not agree with this move by Apple.
These changes are not in the intrest of the consumer, yes us Apples customers. And not in the intrest of the environment.

As a world leading company Apple has the responsibility to lead the corporate world and that means substanability and social responsibility.

Apple pick up the glove and lead the way to a beter future for one and all.

Oh yes and that may also mean a few doors in the garden wall :)

thejadedmonkey
Jul 10, 2012, 12:48 PM
Thank you, this is what I was looking for. I was not asking to be a SA... was asking since there are quite a few IT person(s) here.

Thanks

No, not a problem at all. It was a great question, and I have time right now :)

Xtremehkr
Jul 10, 2012, 12:49 PM
I'm long time Apple user, but I do not agree with this move by Apple.
These changes are not in the intrest of the consumer, yes us Apples customers. And not in the intrest of the environment.

As a world leading company Apple has the responsibility to lead the corporate world and that means substanability and social responsibility.

Apple pick up the glove and lead the way to a beter future for one and all.

Oh yes and that may also mean a few doors in the garden wall :)

Apple will recycle your Apple product free of charge and even give you a gift card if there is any value remaining at the time you turn it in. Is that not sufficient?

http://www.apple.com/recycling/gift-card/

autrefois
Jul 10, 2012, 12:49 PM
So iFixit is THE authority on what can/cannot be recycled?

I have not seen anyone contradict what they or EPEAT are saying about this. If there are professionals/experts out there who think that the retina MBP is as easy to recycle as the previous design of MBP, or that having the battery glued doesn't affect how easy or safe it is to replace, then I'm open to changing my mind. But intuitively, this would not seem to be the case.

chiefsilverback
Jul 10, 2012, 12:49 PM
This^

This story is BS. I was hoping that the "green" trend ended in 2009. I guess people still follow anything labeled "green". I saw an ad that said "Check out these green products!!" and showed me DVDs and random stuff.My favourite is Dasani pushing it's eco-friendly bottle and even worse that they sponsored the HGTV 'Green' Home. Surely the 'greenest' option is drinking the perfectly safe water that comes from the tap?

On topic, Apple seems to be doing plenty in the green space and I think it bodes well for the future that they're looking to create better devices that aren't hampered by legacy rules...

ristlin
Jul 10, 2012, 12:50 PM
EPEAT Certification: Disassembly using caveman tools.

regnoc
Jul 10, 2012, 12:52 PM
Can someone please tell me why EPEAT is so important for San Francisco?

Given that Apple hardware costs 3x as much as the Windows equivalent, I'm more surprised that a tax payer funded agency could even afford to buy Apple products.

Cost of ownership is still huge. In the school systems when Apples discounts were no longer as steep as the PC price drops and they started moving to PCs. Their cost of ownership went through the roof.

hobo.hopkins
Jul 10, 2012, 12:54 PM
That's their right, however silly it might be on its face. It isn't as though Apple's products are any less environmentally-friendly than others; in fact based upon the longevity of Apple's computers they are arguably more friendly.

jmgregory1
Jul 10, 2012, 12:54 PM
Ironic - since most Apple fans base everything Microsoft does on the past (and nearly any competitor) and forgets that things can and do change.

I agree that things change. For everyone and everything. And everyone here would be better for it to remember that it applies all around.

I'm basing my comment about MS and lack of change based upon the FACT that the company I used to work for still uses a MS system that didn't work 7 years ago and still today looks and doesn't work the same as it was 7 years ago when it was installed (I know because my wife still works for the company).

Yes, competitors to Apple do change - once they figure out they need to do something to compete against Apple. And the old days of X brand pc maker sells tens of millions more computers than Apple does has proven to be one, if not the most, stupid metrics to judge success. You can take sides with any pc company you want, knowing that they're making less money, less profit, on the tens of millions of pc's they're selling compared to Apple.

I look up to Apple not because I'm some i-fanatic, but as a business owner I recognize that my company should be operating in the same manner. We have no sacred cows and are constantly pushing forward, even though that forces us to spend more time explaining our unique product and process. It brings value to the company - something no EPEAT friendly $399 Dell laptop will ever do.

drudus
Jul 10, 2012, 12:55 PM
Back when Leopard came out, there was a bug in how it handled file sharing. This bug would prevent PC's from showing up in the sidebar.

My company needed a computer, and the person requested a mac. So we bought a mac mini. I Set it up, and couldn't see any PC's unless we typed the IP address in manually using.. cmd+K I believe?

I called Apple up. "Yes it's a bug, no there's no known ETA until its fixed. Just install Tiger on the mac until the bug's been fixed."


Apple probably didn't see it as a critical bug since you can really easily save the server as address favourite. Are your users too dumb to select from a list?
You can also set it to automatically mount on login so no one ever needs to know how to enter an IP address.
If you are using a corporate DNS server you should be using the fully qualified name anyway.

Sure minor workarounds are annoying, but ditching an entire OS because IT staff don't know how (or don't want to even try) to support it isn't really Apple's fault.

sseaton1971
Jul 10, 2012, 12:59 PM
Given that its very clear that Apple no longer wish to be in the desktop/laptop market I dont see this as a problem for them. All they care about now is iOS and the AppStore. Everything else is secondary.

As far as Apple is concerned, they are only maintaining OS X to allow for development of iOS apps.

Edit Guessing the downvotes are from people who dont want to believe that this is happening. Open your damn eyes... :rolleyes:

Yeah, Apple is keeping OS X going and spending money on R&D and manufacturing of desktops and laptops just for iOS development. Give me a freakin' break! Apple still makes money off of their traditional computing devices, and it is a mature market. iOS devices are still in a very new product category. Apple will likely continue to see huge profits in this area, but there are a lot of other companies coming into play here. Why would Apple want to put all of its eggs in one basket? I think Apple will continue OS X and traditional computers for the foreseeable future.

Kaibelf
Jul 10, 2012, 01:00 PM
Which states are those? The ones that hate their environment?

Are you saying that it's less environmentally conscious for Apple to find way to use less machined parts like screws rather than a dab of some adhesive? The only reason they had to withdraw was because they don't make their machines out of enough removable parts. Frankly, I'd trust Apple to recycle the serviced parts more than some other person who wants to tear a machine open, replace a component, and then throw the replaced part away in the trash.

JAT
Jul 10, 2012, 01:04 PM
And yes... you can find a $400 dollar PC that has the same features as an iMac.

Absolutely. Features like:
a cpu
some metal in the case
silicon

steveh
Jul 10, 2012, 01:06 PM
Why? They should not uphold environmental standards because it may hurt fanboys?

Blindly following standards just because they're standards when there may be better ways to get the same end result is stupid and may well be counterproductive in the end.

Reducing IC engine emissions is a laudable goal; specifying certain ways of attacking the problem (and disallowing anything else) can turn out to be counterproductive.

For example; CA mandated adding MTBE to gasoline to reduce certain types of emissions. Too bad that the MTBE ended up in water sources, with poorly-understood health consequences. Other examples could be brought up.

Better to specify a desired end result, leaving the method(s) for achieving that result open. Something that could actually stimulate innovation.

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 01:07 PM
something no EPEAT friendly $399 Dell laptop will ever do.

I hope you're aware that cost and adhering to regulations are two big decision factors for a company. I understand you look up to Apple and like to model your business after them. But there are many models for a successful business. Apple's is just one. And one that works well. For them. It might not work for many companies.

Just because something offers "more" doesn't make it the better choice. I know that sounds backwards. Just like not everyone needs an iPad- some people are just as fine with a Kindle or Kindle Fire.

Like I said earlier - many office situations don't warrant the expense of an Apple computer when you also factor in repair ability and time involved to maintain. Many office workers (and in this case - city workers) would probably still be ok with a dumb terminal. All of the amazing benefits of having an Apple computer are superfluous in this scenario.

MadeTheSwitch
Jul 10, 2012, 01:07 PM
I don't understand Apple these days. They seem to be pulling out of a lot of enterprise type solutions. It seems like they have all but given up on the profesional market too. Sure these things may be a smaller slice of the pie then iOS devices, but it's all synergy, which is how Apple got to this point to begin with. They seem to have forgotten that. From my perspective it would be better to try to get your devices into every household AND business no matter what the product is....get those computers in there...sell them some iPads. The more you sell, the better. Instead we seem to have a situation where Apple is saying, no thanks...you can buy something else instead. And I don't understand why you would ever want to throw away business like that.

sseaton1971
Jul 10, 2012, 01:09 PM
I sure hope the San Francisco government blocks all tablet and smartphone purchases too, since they wouldn't be able to pass EPEAT rules.

Oh, wait. EPEAT specifically excludes tablets and smart phones from their list of non-approved devices (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/07/apple-pulls-products-from-environmental-epeat-registry/) since they have no chance of passing? Not being able to pass is apparently a reason to give it a pass? Cool.

So when a laptop can't be taken apart it's a problem, but when a tablet can't be taken apart is all ok because those are different words.

Just making sure I'm clear. So, San Francisco government, all your Blackberries, iPhones, and Android phones are safe just because "laptop" and "cell phone" sound different when you say them. Close call, San Francisco government!

Thank you for a reasonable analysis here! Also... We don't know what Apple knows. Maybe EPEAT is going to change their standards or dissolve altogether. After reading some of these comments, I am wondering: Since when did EPEAT become a religion? ;) lol

Bensalama21
Jul 10, 2012, 01:11 PM
Given that its very clear that Apple no longer wish to be in the desktop/laptop market I dont see this as a problem for them. All they care about now is iOS and the AppStore. Everything else is secondary.

As far as Apple is concerned, they are only maintaining OS X to allow for development of iOS apps.

Edit Guessing the downvotes are from people who dont want to believe that this is happening. Open your damn eyes... :rolleyes:

Is that why they decided to come out with a new OS X every year and just released a sick new MacBook pro with a retina display?

lilo777
Jul 10, 2012, 01:28 PM
Are you saying that it's less environmentally conscious for Apple to find way to use less machined parts like screws rather than a dab of some adhesive? The only reason they had to withdraw was because they don't make their machines out of enough removable parts. Frankly, I'd trust Apple to recycle the serviced parts more than some other person who wants to tear a machine open, replace a component, and then throw the replaced part away in the trash.

"In Apple we trust!" The problem with your logic is many fold. Relatively few Apple computers will end up recycled by Apple. Regardless of who does the recycling, fused LCD panel/metal case simply can't be recycled. And the glued battery? The first thins one needs to do to recycle it is to extract it from the case. Easy to do with screws. Not so easy to do with glue.

----------

Thank you for a reasonable analysis here! Also... We don't know what Apple knows. Maybe EPEAT is going to change their standards or dissolve altogether. After reading some of these comments, I am wondering: Since when did EPEAT become a religion? ;) lol

EPEAT "became a religion" after Apple heavily promoted it.

Ryth
Jul 10, 2012, 01:29 PM
You have it backwards. EPEAT sets a standard and they don't force any company to adhere to it NOR do they enforce who chooses to use them as a standard.

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

It's not hard to understand.

What's hard to understand that their standard is dated and needs to reflect things like the MBPR, iPad and other products that will be modeled on these new design innovations?

EPEAT is in the wrong here...not Apple. SFO is going to be spending/wasting lot of $$$ on writing a ton of waivers...

benpatient
Jul 10, 2012, 01:32 PM
No. The computers themselves are less expensive, but here's just a few of the fallouts that will cause their expenses to go up:

1 - Workers will end up wasting time with one or more of the following:
- Learning a new computer system.
- Dealing with Windows (because even once you've learned it, you still have to deal with the fact that it's going to have days when it doesn't feel like working.)
- Filling out the additional paperwork to get a new Mac.
2 - They'll need to buy computers more frequently, because the PCs won't last as long as the Macs. Honestly, I use my Macs for 7+ years. I don't stop using them because I want to stop using them, I stop using them because I decide there are enough new features to warrant getting a new one. (It seems like PC's get replaced within 5 years on account of them becoming unusable. Thus PCs are upgraded by force rather than choice.)

So, all of your points are hyperbole and exaggerated personal anecdote.

I have a house full of Macs, but none of them has lasted 7 years without a major hardware failure!

Our macbook lost the keyboard assembly (repaired under warranty), logic board (repaired under warranty), power adapter (cost $100 to fix) and screen (turned yellow, they won't fix it, not worth it to replace) over the course of 3 years.

The 2008 Mac Pro has had 3 Apple-sourced hard drive failures, and after the first one, they wouldn't replace them for free anymore, so I just bought replacement ones 3rd party. Two months ago, I discovered that second DVI port on the graphics card no longer works.

I had to take back 3 aluminum wired keyboards before I got one that typed correctly (random buttons don't respond on the first press). Those I didn't have to pay for because they were able to verify the problem in-store and the keyboards were brand new.

The graphics on my 2011 MPB are messed up (random visual artifacts everywhere since upgrading to 10.7), just out of warranty, and nobody at the Mac Store Genius Bar can explain what is wrong or give me any advice except to replace the logic board at my expense.

In the mean time, I have a little self-built PC with an old Athlon processor in it that I use as a media hub that has been running without any modifications since before you could buy Windows Vista, whenever that was. It streams 720p and 5.1 dts audio to my receiver without any issues at all. it took me a while to get it right from the software side, but once I had things the way I wanted, it was just a device performing a function without any fuss. If I ever spring for a big 1080p display, I might consider replacing that PC, or upgrading it.

So, anecdotally, my Macs are a MUCH bigger source of failure than my PC.

----------

It's not hard to understand.

What's hard to understand that their standard is dated and needs to reflect things like the MBPR, iPad and other products that will be modeled on these new design innovations?

EPEAT is in the wrong here...not Apple. SFO is going to be spending/wasting lot of $$$ on writing a ton of waivers...

So you think EPEAT should just roll over and play dead with the glued batteries and fused screens that can't be safely recycled? If they approve/waiver products that don't meet the basic concept of "recyclable" then why exist in the first place?

robbyx
Jul 10, 2012, 01:35 PM
If/when CA goes belly up people living in the welfare states are going to get a harsh lesson on their subsidised lifestyles.

So true. Funny how so many people in the country love to hate on California but have no trouble taking its money. The entire south takes way more than it contributes yet loves to vilify California while sucking on the proverbial government tit. Of course they won't admit that. Instead they'll rattle their tea pots and scream about personal responsibility, a concept they don't understand, much less practice.

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 01:40 PM
It's not hard to understand.

What's hard to understand that their standard is dated and needs to reflect things like the MBPR, iPad and other products that will be modeled on these new design innovations?

EPEAT is in the wrong here...not Apple. SFO is going to be spending/wasting lot of $$$ on writing a ton of waivers...

Sorry - why does anyone have to be wrong? To get the EPEAT "rating" you adhere to their criteria. Apple doesn't adhere to their criteria. That doesn't make Apple OR EPEAT wrong. It just means they aren't compatible.

robbyx
Jul 10, 2012, 01:42 PM
Just because Apple is no longer choosing to participate in EPEAT certification, that doesn't make them less environmentally conscious. It just means that they no longer want to be beholden to someone else's standard. Let's see how Apple handles recycling of these new EPEAT-unfriendly products before assuming the worst.

lilo777
Jul 10, 2012, 01:42 PM
It's not hard to understand.

What's hard to understand that their standard is dated and needs to reflect things like the MBPR, iPad and other products that will be modeled on these new design innovations?

EPEAT is in the wrong here...not Apple. SFO is going to be spending/wasting lot of $$$ on writing a ton of waivers...

There is a reason why EPEAT does not reflect things like MBPR. It's because MBPR is not recycling friendly. Everybody but Apple fans agree with that.

Rodimus Prime
Jul 10, 2012, 01:43 PM
Yes, 1-2% of SF computers are Apple. According to the article, that's 500-700 computers. A migration of that size to a new platform will certainly be painful. Granted, not as painful as all of SF's computers, but still painful to the teams that need to deal with it.

You saying that someone else's comment makes no sense is what actually makes no sense.

They would not do it do it all at one time.

Now all those computers would be replaced with in 3 years-4 years during their normal upgrade cycle.

robbyx
Jul 10, 2012, 01:47 PM
There is a reason why EPEAT does not reflect things like MBPR. It's because MBPR is not recycling friendly. Everybody but Apple fans agree with that.

Not necessarily true. Maybe it just requires a little more work. Maybe Apple would rather recycle these new products themselves. Besides, how much e-waste really gets recycled anyway? Does anyone seriously believe that when you drop off a box of tech refuse at your local Best Buy or Office Depot or recycling center that it REALLY gets stripped down and recycled? It ends up in some third world country.

worldawaits
Jul 10, 2012, 01:49 PM
Dropping EPEAT was strategic on Apple's part. Why stay in a program that won’t approve a flagship product?

I love SF, but the city needs to rethink this one. Difficult to recycle is not the same as ‘impossible’ to recycle. The policy should demand recyclability without hamstringing design progress.

Also, while this will seem implausible to those who don’t get it, SF’s employee pool quality will take a small hit by eliminating Apple products. There are those (of us) who literally would refuse a job if denied our tools of choice. The Bay Area hosts a lot of hot minds who insist on Apple, and there’s no glut of skilled people as there is elsewhere.

Backing the EPEAT horse in this race is foolish. CIO’s and policy makers need to adjust to Apple’s lead.

Plus, what do you want to bet that a method and protocol for recycling these bonded components emerges soon enough, probably with Apple involved all the way.

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 01:54 PM
Dropping EPEAT was strategic on Apple's part. Why stay in a program that won’t approve a flagship product?

I love SF, but the city needs to rethink this one. Difficult to recycle is not the same as ‘impossible’ to recycle. The policy should demand recyclability without hamstringing design progress.

Also, while this will seem implausible to those who don’t get it, SF’s employee pool quality will take a small hit by eliminating Apple products. There are those (of us) who literally would refuse a job if denied our tools of choice. The Bay Area hosts a lot of hot minds who insist on Apple, and there’s no glut of skilled people as there is elsewhere.

Backing the EPEAT horse in this race is foolish. CIO’s and policy makers need to adjust to Apple’s lead.

Plus, what do you want to bet that a method and protocol for recycling these bonded components emerges soon enough, probably with Apple involved all the way.

You just contradicted yourself. "SF’s employee pool quality will take a small hit by eliminating Apple products. " and "there’s no glut of skilled people as there is elsewhere. "

And I don't think EPEAT cares whether it's a FLAGSHIP product of APPLE at all. That's not their job to concern themselves with.

EPEAT has guidelines. If they are met - they are approved. if not - they aren't. It's as simple as that. They aren't MAKING any company do ANYTHING.

IE - if a car, to be environmentally friendly and earn some "badge" or approval has to get 45 miles per gallon and it gets 44 - it doesn't matter how amazing everything else about the car is for the environment.

robbyx
Jul 10, 2012, 01:55 PM
Plus, what do you want to bet that a method and protocol for recycling these bonded components emerges soon enough, probably with Apple involved all the way.

Exactly. Pretty ridiculous to assume that there's no way to remove and recycle such components. More difficult does not equal impossible.

Jb07
Jul 10, 2012, 01:56 PM
No. The computers themselves are less expensive, but here's just a few of the fallouts that will cause their expenses to go up:

- Dealing with Windows (because even once you've learned it, you still have to deal with the fact that it's going to have days when it doesn't feel like working.)

So OSX doesn't have days when it doesn't feel like working? I've had as many problems with OSX as I do with Windows. iPhoto freezes up the whole system anytime I go full screen. My MacBook Pro deleted all of a 30 minute video I was trying to put together. My HP Envy has crashed once. Just because your Macs work perfect doesn't mean all Macs do.

2 - They'll need to buy computers more frequently, because the PCs won't last as long as the Macs. Honestly, I use my Macs for 7+ years. I don't stop using them because I want to stop using them, I stop using them because I decide there are enough new features to warrant getting a new one. (It seems like PC's get replaced within 5 years on account of them becoming unusable. Thus PCs are upgraded by force rather than choice.)
I've gone 6 years on a Dell Inspiron 1420. It's quite slow, yes. But it only has 1GB of RAM and a single core Pentium processor running Vista. That's pretty remarkable considering the mess Vista was. I'm really surprised it's running.

There are too many Apple Apologists here. Apple is at fault for not using environmentally friendly materials; stop trying to twist it and make EPEAT the bad guy. I know many of you want to think they are perfect and can never be wrong in their decision-making, but this time they are.
I really miss the days when Apple prided them selves on the fact that they were an Environmentally-Friendly company.

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 02:00 PM
So OSX doesn't have days when it doesn't feel like working? I've had as many problems with OSX as I do with Windows. iPhoto freezes up the whole system anytime I go full screen. My MacBook Pro deleted all of a 30 minute video I was trying to put together. My HP Envy has crashed once. Just because your Macs work perfect doesn't mean all Macs do.


I've gone 6 years on a Dell Inspiron 1420. It's quite slow, yes. But it only has 1GB of RAM and a single core Pentium processor running Vista. That's pretty remarkable considering the mess Vista was. I'm really surprised it's running.

Agreed. I've actually had more spinning beach balls on my mac then I ever had hourglasses on a PC.

I use both PC and Macs. Each have their strength and weaknesses. And the whole "It just works" is a misnomer.

Mattie Num Nums
Jul 10, 2012, 02:04 PM
I've been to SF. The pedestrians always block traffic and don't care about anyone but themselves. It reminds me of the hippies in Venice Beach.

Hippies and Crazy Left Wingers really at the end of the day only give a damn about themselves. WIIFM at its finest.

worldawaits
Jul 10, 2012, 02:07 PM
You just contradicted yourself. "SF’s employee pool quality will take a small hit by eliminating Apple products. " and "there’s no glut of skilled people as there is elsewhere. "


Not a contradiction. Jobs for skilled workers are going unfilled, even in SF. There's no "glut". So if SF wants to compete for the best people, it pays for them to have the welcome mat out for Apple-philes.

And I don't think EPEAT cares whether it's a FLAGSHIP product of APPLE at all. That's not their job to concern themselves with.

Clearly. EPEAT doesn't currently care, and whether they should care or not is irrelevant. It's SF and other cities that should "care" -- SF should consider adjusting policy and avoid staying religiously locked on EPEAT's tenets.

Kenn Marks
Jul 10, 2012, 02:10 PM
With all the hubbub in this thread it seems as if everyone is missing the point especially when it comes to spending tax dollars. There are many articles on the internet about Total Cost of Ownership of Macs vs PCs, below is a link to a non Apple related site that shows Apple is less expensive to own over it's life than a less expensive initially PC

http://www.cio.com/article/569163/Are_Macs_Really_Cheaper_To_Manage_Than_PCs_

JAT
Jul 10, 2012, 02:11 PM
So you think EPEAT should just roll over and play dead with the glued batteries and fused screens that can't be safely recycled? If they approve/waiver products that don't meet the basic concept of "recyclable" then why exist in the first place?
Who said those products can't be recycled? The EPEAT standard is about manufacturing, when it (or some "standard") should be about recycling.

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 02:12 PM
With all the hubbub in this thread it seems as if everyone is missing the point especially when it comes to spending tax dollars. There are many articles on the internet about Total Cost of Ownership of Macs vs PCs, below is a link to a non Apple related site that shows Apple is less expensive to own over it's life than a less expensive initially PC

http://www.cio.com/article/569163/Are_Macs_Really_Cheaper_To_Manage_Than_PCs_

Could you link to another study that wasn't designed by " a group of software developers who've bandied together to deploy and manage Macs in the enterprise."

ETA - also - did you read page two of that study/article? I don't think the article really supports your argument.

MuppetGate
Jul 10, 2012, 02:22 PM
I have not seen anyone contradict what they or EPEAT are saying about this. If there are professionals/experts out there who think that the retina MBP is as easy to recycle as the previous design of MBP, or that having the battery glued doesn't affect how easy or safe it is to replace, then I'm open to changing my mind. But intuitively, this would not seem to be the case.

How does a user-replaceable battery guarantee that it will be properly disposed of?

If anybody can replace the battery, then there's a good chance the duff one will end up in the kitchen bin.

Poisednoise
Jul 10, 2012, 03:20 PM
In my post, I said the batteries cannot be safely removed. From iFixit (http://ifixit.org/2884/apple-ditches-green-standard-cuts-off-federal-agencies-from-apple-products/)



If they can't be safely removed and recycled, then Apple has a much bigger problem on its hands: they will lose the capacity to sell any products within the EU. This applies to their iPads and iPhones as well. The fact that they can sell their products within the EU means that not only can they be safely removed and recycled, but that Apple will have demonstrated that they can be.

This nonsense that the Apple products are unable to be recycled is just that, nonsense. They just don't happen to follow EPEATS silly made up rules.

Glideslope
Jul 10, 2012, 03:32 PM
This just sounds like sour grapes on San Francisco's side. You have a small panel of people who feel like some kind of power has been taken away from them. Reminds me of my local city council.

How true. Reminds me of my local Village Board. ;)

----------

Who said those products can't be recycled? The EPEAT standard is about manufacturing, when it (or some "standard") should be about recycling.

LOL. So true. Everyones panties are in a knot over glass, metal, and batteries. It's about the tools required to take apart the glass, metal, and batteries.

Starting with the stupid ass glued in batteries of the MBP Retina.

...and we wonder why Bob is retiring? :(

kd5jos
Jul 10, 2012, 03:33 PM
Had to take a minute to laugh at the notion of a municipality for a bankrupt state proclaiming that they won't buy some of the most expensive consumer electronics on the market.

Good call San Fran, for no other reason than you shouldn't have been buying Apple computers anyway.

You're right of course. The money is much better spent on hiring people to support the equipment, than buying equipment that does not need the same level of support.

Before you go insane on me, I've worked in several positions over the years where we had fewer Mac techs than PC techs to support the same amount of hardware. Also, they are going to spend money on hardware AND software with this decision (Mac software ain't gonna run on those shiny new windows boxes).

Also, there will be some training when trying to switch Mac users to the Windows platform. I have a feeling that the training will be from attrition. Once you go Mac, you never go back... So, all in all an economic loss, which is a waste of resources. I guess San Fran isn't as caring about the environment as they claim to be.

If I were Apple, I'd intentionally not sell them iOS devices to assist them in saving tax payer money.

rendevouspoo
Jul 10, 2012, 03:35 PM
If I were Apple, I'd intentionally not sell them iOS devices to assist them in saving tax payer money.

No you wouldn't because you'd be a business and be out to make money. Too many people make the mistake of thinking these massive corporations give a damn about consumers.

macadoodle
Jul 10, 2012, 03:46 PM
Can SF ban the purchase of a product because the manuf refuses to pay a third party for a non legal and non standards stamp? Apple has the lawyers, to bad they won't pursue it.

rendevouspoo
Jul 10, 2012, 03:48 PM
Apple has the lawyers, to bad they won't pursue it.

Why won't they? They've went after every other microscopic detail under the sun this past year.

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 03:54 PM
Can SF ban the purchase of a product because the manuf refuses to pay a third party for a non legal and non standards stamp? Apple has the lawyers, to bad they won't pursue it.

They aren't banning the purchase. They simply won't reimburse any office of the city that purchases Apple laptops and desktops.

Again - why is this so hard to understand. Or are people not reading the actual article.

There's no ban. This is no different than any company saying they will only reimburse employees who use X travel agency because that's who they are set up with as a vendor.

The city adheres to EPEAT's approvals - for better or worse. It's not remotely illegal.

ixodes
Jul 10, 2012, 03:59 PM
It's about time that Apple experiences some push back, and consequences.

As much as I have enjoyed their computers year after year, on more than one occasion they've pulled stunts like this.

Anyone here, that's a true Apple enthusiast as I am, knows that not that long ago they were blowing their horn over how green they were. That was a very powerful statement and one that I hoped was true.

Now the truth comes out, and once again it's the money that's more important than anything else.

Before you attack saying "corporations are supposed to make as much as possible" or some other obvious statement. Save it. I work for a very well respected International Fortune 500 company. I know what "responsible" corporations do.

I'm very passionate about Apple and this looks bad and is simply unacceptable. If I didn't care, I wouldn't post.

It's as simple as that :)

CrAkD
Jul 10, 2012, 04:16 PM
Hippies :rolleyes:

jmgregory1
Jul 10, 2012, 04:28 PM
It's about time that Apple experiences some push back, and consequences.

As much as I have enjoyed their computers year after year, on more than one occasion they've pulled stunts like this.

Anyone here, that's a true Apple enthusiast as I am, knows that not that long ago they were blowing their horn over how green they were. That was a very powerful statement and one that I hoped was true.

Now the truth comes out, and once again it's the money that's more important than anything else.

Before you attack saying "corporations are supposed to make as much as possible" or some other obvious statement. Save it. I work for a very well respected International Fortune 500 company. I know what "responsible" corporations do.

I'm very passionate about Apple and this looks bad and is simply unacceptable. If I didn't care, I wouldn't post.

It's as simple as that :)

I think you're missing the point. EPEAT standards were created years ago and Apple was part of the process. Time and manufacturing techniques have changed and improved, but the standards have remained the same. Would you support an organization who's standards no longer make sense or quite possibly have been eclipsed by newer/better processes? I know I wouldn't.

If meeting the standards means we'd be stuck with a 4 or more year old laptop design, then I think the answer is simple - the standards need to change. This doesn't mean it will be a net negative position and could very well be that recycling Apple products requires a different process.

EPEAT was created to allow recycling of parts and minimize electronic junk in landfills, but aren't Apple computers sold in far lower numbers and generally considered premium products that people hold onto and use for far longer than the typical throw-away pc? And if Apple takes back (for recycling) old Apple computers, perhaps EPEAT has zero value to the brand and to organizations like San Francisco city government.

Shame on them (SF) for making an uninformed decision - but I guess that is the hallmark of any governmental group.

hipnetic
Jul 10, 2012, 04:40 PM
Let them eat Windows.

nizzard
Jul 10, 2012, 04:45 PM
Good luck to the IT staff... they will need it. Switching to a completely different hardware and software platform will be painful.

The article says only 1-2% of the city's computers are Macs. I hardly call this switching to a completely different platform.

tundrabuggy
Jul 10, 2012, 04:51 PM
Good for San Francisco. I hope more municipalities and businesses make similar announcements.

If they and consumers make it clear that having computers that are both environmentally-friendly and serviceable is more important than gaining a millimeter here or there on Apple's already slender and elegant products, then Apple just might rethink the direction it's going.

I have been buying Macs and other Apple ware for 13+ years, but this recent decision by Apple to go backwards in terms of the environmental impact of their products and actually allowing anyone other than Apple to service the machine should something need repairing (or even if you want something as simple as a RAM upgrade!) gives me serious doubts about future purchases. And based on the comments here in other threads on Macrumors and elsewhere, I'm glad to hear I'm not alone.

Enjoy your new PC! Apple does quite a bit for the environment as most people know. Screw EPEAT! I hope more companies follow Apple!

mentaluproar
Jul 10, 2012, 04:54 PM
Even though the effect will be small, Apple WILL lose business because of this. If it were never a major marketing point, then it wouldn't matter so much, but because apple really ran with this....

I'm wondering is Steve would have allowed such a decision without shouting and crying.

kd5jos
Jul 10, 2012, 04:56 PM
No you wouldn't because you'd be a business and be out to make money. Too many people make the mistake of thinking these massive corporations give a damn about consumers.

Yes, I would. Being out to make money does not mean you stand on a dollar to pick up a dime. I would make it clear that everyone that follows their example has no place in wasting my time as a business. SF has no idea what they are doing, and if they are going to try and throw a fit because they think they know what's best in the manufacturing arena, I'd take my marbles and play elsewhere.

This is NOT an environmental issue on Apple's part. I've already explained how it is on San Frans part (wasted resources). This is not about what's best for the consumer. This is about a tiny little insignificant bureaucracy trying to appear relevant and make a statement without knowing what it's talking about (see San Fran).

Pardon the pun, but I bet someone in EPEAT got but hurt and threw a tantrum at someone that works for San Fran. This is likely the cause of this policy.

faroZ06
Jul 10, 2012, 05:17 PM
Let them eat Windows.

They already do.

G51989
Jul 10, 2012, 05:28 PM
Let them eat Windows.

I eat windows 7 all day :) its fast, stable, easy to use. And can handle all the heavy lifting I do that osx can't :D

JoEw
Jul 10, 2012, 05:30 PM
I find it funny EPEAT is so outdated that they don't have standards for phones or tablets :rolleyes:

PinkyMacGodess
Jul 10, 2012, 05:37 PM
And yes... you can find a $400 dollar PC that has the same features as an iMac.

This is what I was referring to when I commended "Excluding software...:apple:"

Sure, you *could* find an all-in-one for under $500 that *looks* like an iMac, but with "the same features"? Doesn't the FTC block the import of such Chinese knockoff garbage at the border? I thought they did...

KnightWRX
Jul 10, 2012, 05:51 PM
This is what I was referring to when I commended "Excluding software...:apple:"

Sure, you *could* find an all-in-one for under $500 that *looks* like an iMac, but with "the same features"? Doesn't the FTC block the import of such Chinese knockoff garbage at the border? I thought they did...

The question is, does a municipality need those features from their desktops, not if you can find a PC with the same featureset for a lower price.

AidenShaw
Jul 10, 2012, 06:00 PM
Would anyone see Dell, HP, Vizio, or any of the other companies doing this?

Look before you speak....

http://www8.hp.com/us/en/hp-information/environment/recycling-reuse.html
http://content.dell.com/us/en/corp/dell-environment-recycling
http://campuslife.asus.com/index/5284/how-to-recycle-your-asus-pc/
http://www.vizio.com/environment/
http://www.lenovo.com/social_responsibility/us/en/product_recycling_program.html


Why do so many Apple fans assume that Apple is better than other companies, without taking a few seconds to check facts?

[rhetorical question - we know the answer]

KnightWRX
Jul 10, 2012, 06:04 PM
What is unreasonable is San Francisco officials' stance on this that compels them to make such an announcement in order to force compliance to a standard that Apple has already acknowledged that its products do not meet.

San Francisco is not forcing anyone to adhere to a standard their products do not meet. Where do people keep coming up with this stuff ? EPEAT is optional, Apple chose to not certify their products for it anymore, San Francisco requires it for purchases.

No one is forced to do anything. San Francisco chose their policy, Apple chose theirs, EPEAT chose what their standard covers. Everyone gets to live with the consequences of these choices.

Goldenbear
Jul 10, 2012, 06:10 PM
...Most businesses pay money for support contracts, so they're never without vital equapment. That's impossible to do when it comes to Apple. Most businesses require certain OS/Apps for compatability. That's impossible when it comes to Apple. Most businsses require support for more than a few years. That's impossible when it comes to Apple..

I have to call BS on this one.

In a past life, I used to work IT for a fairly large company that deployed mostly Macs. They leased all the computers, and if one ever went down for any reason, they could get a replacement within a few hours, or a day at the most.

Will this work for all companies? No. But it's an option.

----------

Please explain the advantages of using torx screws over Phillips heads? Ask yourself why Apple does this.

Simple. Phillips heads SUCK ASS!

Ever strip one trying to undo a screw? I've stripped several. In fact, since most phillips screws are cheap, soft ones, they'll strip a little bit each time you unfasten it, no matter how careful you are.

Torx are much less likely to strip, and they are pretty much standard in cars.

Sylon
Jul 10, 2012, 06:16 PM
I never understood why Apple took all their products off the certification, old and new, when the only product that didn't make it was the new Retina MacBook Pro. Other Macs and MacBooks qualified just fine, so why not keep those sales to governments and schools going and to just exclude the Retina MacBook? It doesn't make any sense.

AidenShaw
Jul 10, 2012, 06:23 PM
That's insane.

Not really - go to CDW.COM and look at replacement laptop battery prices. I just spent $160 on a Lenovo battery - that I can replace in a few seconds.


Please explain the advantages of using torx screws over Phillips heads? Ask yourself why Apple does this.

Phillips screws were designed to "cam out" (the bit slips out of the screw). Torx screws are designed to keep the bit in the screw. In other words, Phillips is meant to slip and fail.

(Apple doesn't use torx - but I'm answering the question.)


SFO is going to be spending/wasting lot of $$$ on writing a ton of waivers...

"SFO" is an airport, and an airport that's not even in San Francisco.

And (the city and county of) San Francisco won't be working on a ton of waivers - a tiny percentage of the work force uses Apples, and probably only a small percentage of that tiny percentage is using Apple-only software so that they'd have a chance of the waiver being approved.

The rest won't tilt at the windmill - too much effort, too little gain.


Simple. Phillips heads SUCK ASS!

By design.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_screw#Phillips

Goldenbear
Jul 10, 2012, 06:29 PM
I never understood why Apple took all their products off the certification, old and new, when the only product that didn't make it was the new Retina MacBook Pro. Other Macs and MacBooks qualified just fine, so why not keep those sales to governments and schools going and to just exclude the Retina MacBook? It doesn't make any sense.

I agree it's a bit curious, but they're moving the rest of their laptop lineup in the same direction, so it'll be a moot point sooner or later.

My cynical side thinks that if Apple advertised that some of their computers are certified and others aren't, eventually some low-life would file a class action lawsuit claiming that Apple's being unclear which computers are certified. Typical shakedown by scumbags that happens to all large companies in this country.

I'm sure Apple thought through the potential fallout from this decision and decided it was worth it. They simply haven't communicated the reasoning, which is typical of their secretive nature.

RedCroissant
Jul 10, 2012, 06:43 PM
Look before you speak....

http://www8.hp.com/us/en/hp-information/environment/recycling-reuse.html
http://content.dell.com/us/en/corp/dell-environment-recycling
http://campuslife.asus.com/index/5284/how-to-recycle-your-asus-pc/
http://www.vizio.com/environment/
http://www.lenovo.com/social_responsibility/us/en/product_recycling_program.html


Why do so many Apple fans assume that Apple is better than other companies, without taking a few seconds to check facts?

[rhetorical question - we know the answer]

well, I did look before I spoke and knew what I was talking about. If you had quoted me properly...

"My guess is that there will be a newer and updated recyclability standard that will see Apple taking control of recycling its own products. Who better to take apart and recycle products that the company itself designed and assembled? Would anyone see Dell, HP, Vizio, or any of the other companies doing this?"

I know that Dell and the other companies recycle their equipment along with other manufacturer's (just as Apple does), but I was stating that Apple would completely control the recycling of their own products(which those other companies you linked do are not doing). You should have also been able to see that I was making a guess as to what might happen in the future. Try not to cherry pick simply because it fits in with your assumptions.

rendevouspoo
Jul 10, 2012, 06:48 PM
Not really - go to CDW.COM and look at replacement laptop battery prices. I just spent $160 on a Lenovo battery - that I can replace in a few seconds.


You should consider using newegg. After comparing a couple batteries to CDW, newegg ran about 50 dollars cheaper. http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&N=-1&isNodeId=1&Description=lenovo+battery&x=0&y=0

faroZ06
Jul 10, 2012, 06:56 PM
Simple. Phillips heads SUCK ****!

Ever strip one trying to undo a screw? I've stripped several. In fact, since most phillips screws are cheap, soft ones, they'll strip a little bit each time you unfasten it, no matter how careful you are.

Torx are much less likely to strip, and they are pretty much standard in cars.

That is the most annoying thing ever. Want to take something apart? Oh look, ONE @#$%ING SCREW IS STRIPPED! Now I can't take it apart.

RedCroissant
Jul 10, 2012, 06:58 PM
San Francisco is not forcing anyone to adhere to a standard their products do not meet. Where do people keep coming up with this stuff ? EPEAT is optional, Apple chose to not certify their products for it anymore, San Francisco requires it for purchases.

No one is forced to do anything. San Francisco chose their policy, Apple chose theirs, EPEAT chose what their standard covers. Everyone gets to live with the consequences of these choices.

I know that no one is forced to do anything, and the beginning of my post says that it should not be a crime or a problem when Apple chose not to certify its products because they knew they would not meet the requirements.

But when you consider the statement..."We are disappointed that Apple chose to withdraw from EPEAT," said Melanie Nutter, director of San Francisco's Department of Environment, "and we hope that the city saying it will not buy Apple products will make Apple reconsider its participation."

It's her quote that shows her intent is to make this statement to force(although passively) Apple to reconsider its participation which in turn also implies their hope that Apple reconsiders their designs that necessitated the withdrawal from the EPEAT standard.

chatin
Jul 10, 2012, 07:08 PM
The new retina MBP does not deserve to qualify as green. I called the design a disposable on launch day. When the computer goes out of AppleCare few will want to fix the battery at $200.

This Macbook Pro simply does not make sense for the environment. :confused:

AidenShaw
Jul 10, 2012, 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by AidenShaw
Not really - go to CDW.COM and look at replacement laptop battery prices. I just spent $160 on a Lenovo battery - that I can replace in a few seconds.

You should consider using newegg. After comparing a couple batteries to CDW, newegg ran about 50 dollars cheaper. http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&N=-1&isNodeId=1&Description=lenovo+battery&x=0&y=0

Newegg was $161 for the same battery! ;)

I agree, though, that Newegg usually has much better prices for many things. Our corporate purchasing is tied to CDW, and the bean counters have determined that overall CDW is a better deal. And it's dead easy - the CDW catalog is linked from our intranet home page, just click-click and two days later it's in your office.

(I use Newegg for most personal purchases...)

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 07:15 PM
It's her quote that shows her intent is to make this statement to force(although passively) Apple to reconsider its participation which in turn also implies their hope that Apple reconsiders their designs that necessitated the withdrawal from the EPEAT standard.

What else do you expect the "Director of San Francisco's Department of Environment" to say? And if anything - it shows that they desire to be able to purchase Apple computers within their organization - but their hands are tied."

In other words - people will see what they want to see in the statement. You really don't know what her intent was by the statement alone.

KnightWRX
Jul 10, 2012, 07:56 PM
I know that no one is forced to do anything, and the beginning of my post says that it should not be a crime or a problem when Apple chose not to certify its products because they knew they would not meet the requirements.

It's not a crime or a problem either. So I guess your wish is granted by status quo.

But when you consider the statement..."We are disappointed that Apple chose to withdraw from EPEAT," said Melanie Nutter, director of San Francisco's Department of Environment, "and we hope that the city saying it will not buy Apple products will make Apple reconsider its participation."

It's her quote that shows her intent is to make this statement to force(although passively) Apple to reconsider its participation which in turn also implies their hope that Apple reconsiders their designs that necessitated the withdrawal from the EPEAT standard.

She's not forcing Apple to do anything, she's disappointed and hopes they reconsider, but she's not saying Apple is doing anything wrong. Heck, like a ton of people were disappointed and hoping Apple would reconsider building a mid-tower with consumer level parts. No one forced Apple to do it.

----------

And if anything - it shows that they desire to be able to purchase Apple computers within their organization - but their hands are tied."

That's the vibe I'm getting from the quote also. That she's actually disappointed and really likes Apple computers enough that she hopes that Apple reconsiders so that the city can start purchases again.

Wouldn't you be disappointed if Apple dropped support for a requirement in your business, forcing to move away from them ? Wouldn't you hope they'd reconsider ? Heck yeah I would. I like using OS X.

Gasu E.
Jul 10, 2012, 07:57 PM
Given how sensitive a topic the environment is nowadays, Apple no doubt has valid reasons, but withdrawing support for EPEAT without some type of public PR answer is only going to lead to the story quickly developing a negative spin. If they don't like EPEAT because it limits design flexibility, but they remain committed to the environment, they could try to demonstrate that their products offer comparable or better environmental benefits to the EPEAT program even if they don't follow the EPEAT standards by the letter.

I agree. This was very poorly handled.

AidenShaw
Jul 10, 2012, 08:04 PM
If you had quoted me properly...

"My guess is that there will be a newer and updated recyclability standard that will see Apple taking control of recycling its own products."

Your "guess" is that "there will be" an Apple-sponsored recycling standard?

LOL.

Will that "Apple recycling center" be nearby, or will fuel have to be wasted to ship Apples back to China for cheap dissassembly? (With EPEAT guidelines, local independent recyclers can separate the components.)

The "only Apple can recycle an Apple" argument is a huge step backwards - the EPEAT standards favor simple, local recyclers.

I just bought a replacement battery for a big APC UPS. The battery came with "free recycling" - I entered the URL on the webpage and my zip code, and it printed out a pre-paid UPS label to send it to a town about 50 km away.

I give it about six weeks before Apple recertifies the existing models (the pre-rMBP ones that had been certified) with EPEAT and promises to modify the rMBP to meet the standards.

GS17
Jul 10, 2012, 08:06 PM
Yes, 1-2% of SF computers are Apple. According to the article, that's 500-700 computers. A migration of that size to a new platform will certainly be painful. Granted, not as painful as all of SF's computers, but still painful to the teams that need to deal with it.

You saying that someone else's comment makes no sense is what actually makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense, where did you read that they were throwing away those 500-700 macs? They don't need to replace them because this situation applies to new purchases, they can progressively replace them when the time comes. Also I don't think there are entire teams that are Mac only based (maybe a couple but they still can use tha macs they have now), I'm sure they're spread across multiple offices and people will deal with the change, as for IT is usually easier to support less platforms than multiple.

AidenShaw
Jul 10, 2012, 08:12 PM
It makes perfect sense, where did you read that they were throwing away those 500-700 macs?

[voice of IT "support" person]

"Your Apple Book was infected with the Flashback virus, the only way that we could be sure to clean it was to re-imagine your laptop.

Here's your new ThinkPad."

;)

ps: Our corporate IT group is reformatting and reimaging all of the Apple laptops that caught the Flashback malware. It's the only way to be certain that they're clean.

RedCroissant
Jul 10, 2012, 08:23 PM
Your "guess" is that "there will be" an Apple-sponsored recycling standard?

LOL.

Will that "Apple recycling center" be nearby, or will fuel have to be wasted to ship Apples back to China for cheap dissassembly? (With EPEAT guidelines, local independent recyclers can separate the components.)

The "only Apple can recycle an Apple" argument is a huge step backwards - the EPEAT standards favor simple, local recyclers.

I just bought a replacement battery for a big APC UPS. The battery came with "free recycling" - I entered the URL on the webpage and my zip code, and it printed out a pre-paid UPS label to send it to a town about 50 km away.

I give it about six weeks before Apple recertifies the existing models (the pre-rMBP ones that had been certified) with EPEAT and promises to modify the rMBP to meet the standards.

Ah…no. My guess is not that there will be an Apple-sponsored recycling standard. My guess is that due to the fact that they are no longer participating in the EPEAT program, that they will have to recycle their own products.

And maybe there will be an "Apple recycling center" but perhaps Apple would simply continue to utilize their retail stores and other authorized dealers/resellers/service providers to facilitate a recycling program that would still work with local recycling centers and programs.

But of course, I guess shipping it back to China would be way easier....

Essentially, the EPEAT standard is mostly irrelevant(except for the impact of sales with government organizations) since they can take care of their own products within their existing extensive network of service providers and retailers.

MacinDoc
Jul 10, 2012, 08:25 PM
Seems to be a logical consequence of Apple's withdrawal from certification, since for SF, the certification is required.

And in this case, I think Apple is getting what it deserves. And it will add up, far beyond the few hundred machines being used by the city of SF. Apple will also lose the benefits of having a toehold for its ecosystem in various government offices.

I wonder if Apple is underestimating the significance of loss of government contracts and those losses that may stem from consumer dissatisfaction with Apple's decision to withdraw from EPEAT.

AidenShaw
Jul 10, 2012, 08:36 PM
And maybe there will be an "Apple recycling center" but perhaps Apple would simply continue to utilize their retail stores and other authorized dealers/resellers/service providers to facilitate a recycling program that would still work with local recycling centers and programs.

But of course, I guess shipping it back to China would be way easier....

Even in the US, most people live far from an Apple retail store.

Withdrawing from EPEAT is a really bone-headed move. Tim Cook's Apple seems to point the gun at their own feet before pulling the trigger.

Even Cupertino's home town daily newspaper says:

Apple's withdrawal from 'green' certification program surprises purchasers

By Dana Hull and John Boudreau
Staff writers
mercurynews.com

After establishing itself as an environmental leader among consumer electronics companies, Apple's (AAPL) abrupt withdrawal from a prominent "green" product registry has set off a furor in the blogosphere and could modestly cut into the company's computer sales.

Apple's decision may be tied to the design of the new MacBook Pros, which have batteries glued into the case and can't be disassembled for recycling -- a violation of the green certification standards of EPEAT, a nonprofit product rating group backed by many manufacturers and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

"I've had some conversations, and Apple has said that their design direction is not compatible with EPEAT standards," the group's CEO, Robert Frisbee, said in an interview Monday. "It's kind of odd since they've helped design" the standards.

Greenpeace spokesman Casey Harrell said Apple "has pitted design against the environment -- and chosen design. They're making a big bet that people don't care, but recycling is a big issue."
...

Not all publicity is good publicity.

AppleScruff1
Jul 10, 2012, 08:37 PM
Seems to be a logical consequence of Apple's withdrawal from certification, since for SF, the certification is required.

And in this case, I think Apple is getting what it deserves. And it will add up, far beyond the few hundred machines being used by the city of SF. Apple will also lose the benefits of having a toehold for its ecosystem in various government offices.

I wonder if Apple is underestimating the significance of loss of government contracts and those losses that may stem from consumer dissatisfaction with Apple's decision to withdraw from EPEAT.

I honestly wonder if it would have any effect at all on consumers even if they lose all government contracts and get negative press about it. They'll come up with some explanation and everyone will be satisfied. After all, it's Apple and their customers feel they can do no wrong. Look at all the excuses being made in this thread. If it were any other tech company there would be a lynch mob forming on this forum.

AidenShaw
Jul 10, 2012, 08:45 PM
I honestly wonder if it would have any effect at all on consumers even if they lose all government contracts and get negative press about it. They'll come up with some explanation and everyone will be satisfied. After all, it's Apple and their customers feel they can do no wrong. Look at all the excuses being made in this thread. If it were any other tech company there would be a lynch mob forming on this forum.

The "death by a thousand cuts" may be Apple's undoing. Stories like this (and "antennagate" and "Foxconn suicides" and...) do get remembered, and sooner or later even many of the fans will start to question what Cupertino is doing.

This EPEAT episode, though, is somewhat special. Apple used to brag about its EPEAT ratings and feature them prominently in marketing materials.

Now, though - as Emily L. said "never mind".

Even the sheep notice hyprocrisy of that level.

AppleScruff1
Jul 10, 2012, 08:48 PM
The "death by a thousand cuts" may be Apple's undoing. Stories like this (and "antennagate" and "Foxconn suicides" and...) do get remembered, and sooner or later even many of the fans will start to question what Cupertino is doing.

This EPEAT episode, though, is somewhat special. Apple used to brag about its EPEAT ratings and feature them prominently in marketing materials.

Now, though - as Emily L. said "never mind".

Even the sheep notice hyprocrisy of that level.

Hopefully you're correct, but I'm reading a lot of excuses in this thread.

RedCroissant
Jul 10, 2012, 08:49 PM
Even in the US, most people live far from an Apple retail store.

Withdrawing from EPEAT is a really bone-headed move. Tim Cook's Apple seems to point the gun at their own feet before pulling the trigger.

Even Cupertino's home town daily newspaper says:



Not all publicity is good publicity.

I agree that withdrawing from EPEAT might not have been the best move, but if it simply participation in a program that helps to publicize their environmental responsibility that they are still able to maintain without that affiliation, then what really changes? Sure, the initial perception might be bad, but if their products are still as highly recyclable as they have been, then having the "EPEAT stamp of approval" is redundant and unnecessary.

And I know there are many people that live far from Apple retail stores, but Apple has business connections with numerous electronics retailers, resellers, and service providers in addition to those retail stores.

And perhaps this move to remove themselves from the EPEAT program was a preemptive move before BEING removed and therefore receiving even worse publicity for that.

AidenShaw
Jul 10, 2012, 08:53 PM
I agree that withdrawing from EPEAT might not have been the best move, but if it simply participation in a program that helps to publicize their environmental responsibility that they are still able to maintain without that affiliation, then what really changes?

For example, referring to the topic of this article, the City and County of San Franciso requires EPEAT certification for computer purchases.

Customer. Gone.

And where America's favorite city (http://www.igougo.com/journal-j18610-San_Francisco-San_Francisco_Americas_Favorite_City.html) goes, others may follow.

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 08:57 PM
For example, referring to the topic of this article, the City and County of San Franciso requires EPEAT certification for computer purchases.

Customer. Gone.

To further - Apple could advocate how secure iOS is - but if it doesn't meat HIPAA, or other compliance requirements - it doesn't matter how secure it is - organizations that have requirements won't buy the product either.

AidenShaw
Jul 10, 2012, 09:00 PM
To further - Apple could advocate how secure iOS is - but if it doesn't meat HIPAA, or other compliance requirements - it doesn't matter how secure it is - organizations that have requirements won't buy the product either.

But the fans will simply say "HIPAA is idiots".... ;)

samcraig
Jul 10, 2012, 09:02 PM
But the fans will simply say "HIPAA is idiots".... ;)

Or "it's not a big deal - because they were never HIPAA compliant so they are losing anything" ;)