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MacRumors
Jul 11, 2012, 04:11 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/11/apples-share-of-u-s-pc-shipments-rises-to-12-in-2q-2012/)


Research firm Gartner today released (http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=2079015) its preliminary personal computer shipment data for the second quarter of 2012, offering up a picture of market performance during the quarter. While Apple experienced only small year-over-year unit growth of 4.3% in the United States, the company was the only one of the top five vendors to see year-over-year growth and the company once again outperformed the overall industry and its 5.7% decline.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/07/gartner_2Q12_us.png


Gartner's Preliminary U.S. PC Vendor Unit Shipment Estimates for 2Q12 (Thousands of Units)
Apple's share of the U.S. market rose to 12.0% for the quarter after two straight quarters of decline due to the company's seasonality. The figure, which allowed Apple to consolidate its hold on the third position in the U.S. market behind HP and Dell, marked Apple's second best performance in recent years following a 12.9% share in the third quarter of 2011 (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/10/12/apples-share-of-u-s-pc-market-leaps-to-12-9-in-3q-2011/). The third quarter, which includes back-to-school purchases in many of Apple's strongest markets, is typically its best-performing quarter.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/07/gartner_2Q12_us_trend.png


Apple's U.S. Market Share Trend: 1Q06-2Q12 (Gartner)
As usual, Gartner did not cover Apple's worldwide market share for the quarter, as the company does not rank among the top five vendors on a worldwide basis. PC shipments experienced a 0.1% year-over-year decline on a worldwide basis, with strong growth from Asus and Lenovo being offset by declines from HP and Dell.

Update: IDC has released its own estimates (http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS23584912) for the quarter, pegging Apple at a 1.1% year-over-year decline in U.S. shipments and an 11.4% share of that market. IDC estimated that Lenovo was able to enter the top five on the strength of a 6.1% year-over-year gain, but the overall U.S. market was much weaker than expected in registering a 10.6% drop.

Article Link: Apple's Share of U.S. PC Shipments Rises to 12% in 2Q 2012 (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/11/apples-share-of-u-s-pc-shipments-rises-to-12-in-2q-2012/)



FFArchitect
Jul 11, 2012, 04:13 PM
I see a trend here, I think.

Daalseth
Jul 11, 2012, 04:15 PM
2nd quarter of Calendar year 2012 or Fiscal year 2012?

Hakone
Jul 11, 2012, 04:16 PM
A steady growth while the other top 5 brands are declining at various levels shows a promising shift to Apple products. I wonder how the holiday quarter numbers will look like.

CplBadboy
Jul 11, 2012, 04:16 PM
???? So Apple sold 1910 macs? Thats not a lot to shout about is it.

Hakone
Jul 11, 2012, 04:17 PM
2nd quarter of Calendar year 2012 or Fiscal year 2012?

I think it's CY.

TouchMint.com
Jul 11, 2012, 04:19 PM
I wonder how much the retina book will bump these numbers.


How about an iMac update and I would help with bumping these numbers!

sebi247
Jul 11, 2012, 04:20 PM
???? So Apple sold 1910 macs? Thats not a lot to shout about is it.

x1000

(Thousands of Units)

pgiguere1
Jul 11, 2012, 04:20 PM
Basically like the smartphone industry: everybody's doing bad except Apple and Samsung

EDIT: Also Asus and Lenovo

Peace
Jul 11, 2012, 04:25 PM
A steady growth while the other top 5 brands are declining at various levels shows a promising shift to Apple products. I wonder how the holiday quarter numbers will look like.

This is US only. International shipments for ASUS and Lenovo have skyrocketed way past Apples sales.

ASUS was + 39 % and Lenovo was +19%

gnasher729
Jul 11, 2012, 04:28 PM
Curious which company of the "Others" had more than 10% gain.


This is US only. International shipments for ASUS and Lenovo have skyrocketed way past Apples sales.

ASUS was + 39 % and Lenovo was +19%

There's always some redistribution of sales in the PC market. PCs are quite interchangeable to the customer; someone's loss is someone else's gain. Doesn't matter one bit to Apple if customers moved from HP, Dell and Acer to ASUS and Lenovo.

charlieegan3
Jul 11, 2012, 04:31 PM
Curious which company of the "Others" had more than 10% gain.

Arn't lenovo doing quite well?

Peace
Jul 11, 2012, 04:39 PM
Curious which company of the "Others" had more than 10% gain.




There's always some redistribution of sales in the PC market. PCs are quite interchangeable to the customer; someone's loss is someone else's gain. Doesn't matter one bit to Apple if customers moved from HP, Dell and Acer to ASUS and Lenovo.

I agree but my point was Apple has a very small position in international sales. They weren't in the top 10 in international markets.


" ASUS showed the strongest growth among the top 5 vendors worldwide, as its shipments increased 38.6 percent in the second quarter of 2012. ASUS’s strong growth came from EMEA and U.S. markets. ASUS did well at diversifying the product portfolio: starting with mini-notebook expansion, then quickly moving to the mid- to high-end notebook market."

gnasher729
Jul 11, 2012, 04:43 PM
I agree but my point was Apple has a very small position in international sales. They weren't in the top 10 in international markets.

Weren't they? Can you show us a chart with the top 10? I haven't seen one.

Daalseth
Jul 11, 2012, 04:43 PM
I think it's CY.
Ok, then it's all because of that MBP I bought in June. :D

madrag
Jul 11, 2012, 04:46 PM
Release a new iMac and a new Mac Pro and those numbers will rise.

I dare you Apple.

ElCidRo
Jul 11, 2012, 04:49 PM
I'm not surprised. Just bought a new MacBook Air 13" from them.
This is my first internet post from the laptop.

I love this thing!!!

Anti-Lucifer
Jul 11, 2012, 04:51 PM
apple is notorious for slow and steady. This looks way better for investors!

As long as the AAPL keeps going up, I could care less if apple computer #'s surpass microsoft windows PC numbers.

cvaldes
Jul 11, 2012, 04:51 PM
2nd quarter of Calendar year 2012 or Fiscal year 2012?
These analyses between various companies are always calendar year since different companies have different fiscal years. Dell's ended on February 2nd, HP's will end on October 31, Apple's will end on September 23, etc., etc.

This isn't restricted to PC sales analyses. Any quarterly financial analysis between various companies will use the calendar year.

Note that Apple's fiscal quarters end on the last Saturday of the period, rather than the last day of the month. This ensures that Apple's fiscal quarters are all 13 weeks long, with the odd 14 week quarter thrown in every few years.

More interesting is if you subtract Apple's sales numbers from the rest of the industry.

2Q12 (ex-Apple): 13997
2Q11 (ex-Apple): 15047

This means that the non-Apple PC business dropped closer to -6.96%. The -5.7% year-over-year PC industry decline in the chart is partly buoyed by Apple.

CodexMonkey
Jul 11, 2012, 04:53 PM
Everyone who says that Macs are overpriced needs to take a good long look at these figures. Some of the cheaper alternatives (hardware and/or windows software) simply donít work as well as they should and, if something does not work as well as it should, then it could be free - itís still no use.

Every Mac Iíve bought since 1986 has made my eyes water price-wise (esp. when comparing it to cheaper alternatives available at the time) and yet every time Iíve bought a new computer itís been a Mac - not because Iím a fan-boy (I am) but because it always does what I want it to do, and often more - from the moment I get it out of the box until long after I sell it. I used a PC just last week for a few hours. The UI was ugly, it crashed twice, it kept asking me stupid questions and then could not find my digital camera without a long, drawn out installation session.

The day Ballmer, Dell and various other people get their heads around the fact that lots and lots and lots of people, even in hard times, will pay that little bit more in return for almost 100% customer satisfaction, is the day the trend shown in this graph will be reversed.

Ballmer, however, wonít ever get it - because the manís an idiot and a liability to Microsoftís legacy.

Steve got it. Jony gets it. Bob (who will be missed) gets it. Phil gets it.

So yeah, we go out with our hard earned burning our wallets - and we get it.

IJ Reilly
Jul 11, 2012, 04:55 PM
Market share is a virtually meaningless statistic. The number that really matters is unit sales and growth in that department. Apple's 4.3% unit growth only looks good in comparison to the other near neighbor computer makers, and it only looks good because they grew backwards. In fact with or without Apple, the computer market shrunk in the quarter. Puts that "rise" into proper perspective.

Peace
Jul 11, 2012, 04:55 PM
Weren't they? Can you show us a chart with the top 10? I haven't seen one.

My bad. Top 5 since they don't do stats on smaller sales.

bedifferent
Jul 11, 2012, 04:55 PM
PC shipments experienced a 0.1% year-over-year decline on a worldwide basis, with strong growth from Asus and Lenovo being offset by declines from HP and Dell.

Here come the "This is a post-PC era" commentators. :p

ericinboston
Jul 11, 2012, 04:56 PM
Good job, Apple! Over the past 6 years you've gone from 4% to about 12%, give or take a Quarter. But to be fair it has been hovering around 10% for 2+ years. The only way Apple is going to break any kind of 20% marketshare is:

1)drop the prices (or offer much cheaper models) so more consumers can afford Apple

and/or

2)play more nicely with businesses so businesses adopt

until the above 2 are somehow met, Apple's probably near the cap of folks who will drop $1200+ for a desktop PC or $1000 for their cheapest laptop.


But maybe Apple wants to sit in the 4%-15% market share range and collect hefty profits. I dunno. Nothing really wrong with that unless you make some mistakes and your market share really plummets.

bedifferent
Jul 11, 2012, 05:02 PM
Good job, Apple! Over the past 6 years you've gone from 4% to about 12%, give or take a Quarter. But to be fair it has been hovering around 10% for 2+ years. The only way Apple is going to break any kind of 20% marketshare is:

1)drop the prices (or offer much cheaper models) so more consumers can afford Apple

and/or

2)play more nicely with businesses so businesses adopt



Amen. Get a mid-tower between the top iMac and entry level Mac Pro, priced around what a PowerMac used to cost (~$1500). An affordable, upgradeable system without the overkill Xeon server processors, Thunderbolt, USB 3, internal SATA III/6G and PCIe slots. A lot of businesses and professionals/high end consumers have been needing such for years. Screen real estate will always be a necessity for film editors, photographers, etc that iMac's, MacBook Pro's and iPads will never satisfy.

WardC
Jul 11, 2012, 05:15 PM
I think the largest chunk of it comes from Apple's Performa sales...the Quadras aren't doing so good. And PowerBooks? Hardly anybody uses laptops!!

D.T.
Jul 11, 2012, 05:17 PM
Yup, and I think it's a bad idea.

I would have liked better the downvote button to be there and it to have an actual effect.

For example, in the forums, a thread starter that gets under -5 wouldn't be bumped to the top of the first page every time someone replies. It seems that people are more likely to answer to troll threads than relevant threads, and the first page of forums gets filled with trolls pretty easily.

I think itís great idea, it de-empowers the tards, who simply sweep through threads and down rank specific people regardless of the content of their post, or just knee jerk at the site of a word like ďandroidĒ.

Curious which company of the "Others" had more than 10% gain.


Yeah, thatís a reasonably stout gain for ďotherĒ brands. I guess we could make a short list of named brands: Sony, Lenovo, Asus, Compaq, I know from that list Asus has become very popular.

Rocketman
Jul 11, 2012, 05:21 PM
Aside from the spectacular data point, the trend is of note.

Daws001
Jul 11, 2012, 05:29 PM
I'll be curious to see what this quarters numbers will be with the new Macbooks factored in. I bought my first Air (first Mac) last month.

Yvan256
Jul 11, 2012, 05:32 PM
???? So Apple sold 1910 macs? Thats not a lot to shout about is it.

Gartner's Preliminary U.S. PC Vendor Unit Shipment Estimates for 2Q12 (Thousands of Units)

1910 x 1000 = 1910000 computers.

That's for one quarter, so more or less 90 days.

1910000 / 90 = 21222 computers per day, or 884 computers per hour, or 14 computers every minute, or about one Mac sold every four seconds.

Constable Odo
Jul 11, 2012, 05:45 PM
I'm less interested in Apple's market share than I'm interested in Apple's overall profits. Those I want to continue growing. I don't think Apple's combined market share will have to double for Apple to become a trillion dollar market cap company. I've already seen how major market share alone doesn't really mean anything for the health of a company. If anything major market share can be detrimental to a company in a few ways. If Apple's market cap can reach $700 to $800 billion and stay there for a few years, I think that will be good enough. I'm glad to see Apple gaining a little more market share but I think that is really due to the rest of the computer industry seriously screwing up their products.

wickerman1893
Jul 11, 2012, 05:56 PM
I'm kinda surprised with the lack of updates to the iMac and Mac Pro. But then there are the new rMBP's....

Rennir
Jul 11, 2012, 06:12 PM
Market share is irrelevant! This is why I will dismiss all stories about marketshare because it doesn't matter at all! All that matters is profits!:D

Thunderhawks
Jul 11, 2012, 06:28 PM
But maybe Apple wants to sit in the 4%-15% market share range and collect hefty profits. I dunno. Nothing really wrong with that unless you make some mistakes and your market share really plummets.

As long as the profits don't plummet, market share is irrelevant! They will of course make some mistakes.

For now they have excellent products. Yes, a little more expensive, but their stuff lasts and lasts.

1994 Quicksilver DP still going strong as my desktop got it all the way up to Tiger
2002 G4 Sunflower iMac same on a second desk all the way up to 10.5.8

They still do all I need them to do at work.

Pakaku
Jul 11, 2012, 06:47 PM
Release a new iMac and a new Mac Pro and those numbers will rise.

I dare you Apple.

At least you're optimistic :)

eyehop
Jul 11, 2012, 06:56 PM
Can I please go back to 1995 and get the :apple: stock I wanted to buy at the time?

hobo.hopkins
Jul 11, 2012, 07:02 PM
That's pretty impressive when compared to a decade ago. All in all not the most important of things, but impressive nonetheless.

Sabenth
Jul 11, 2012, 07:06 PM
confusing the heck out of me one says doing well the other update states something else completely hell there making a crap load of money and not releasing much hardware good for them at least there doing better than they have ever done

faroZ06
Jul 11, 2012, 07:13 PM
Everything is severely down except for Apple and "other". Are more people switching to ASUS or building PCs? I heard ASUS is actually good, and in my experience, HP is the worst.

cdmoore74
Jul 11, 2012, 07:16 PM
Apple's Share of U.S. PC Shipments Rises to 12% in 2Q 2012

vs

IDC has released its own estimates for the quarter, pegging Apple at a 1.1% year-over-year decline in U.S.


Which one do I believe?

faroZ06
Jul 11, 2012, 07:19 PM
Apple's Share of U.S. PC Shipments Rises to 12% in 2Q 2012

vs

IDC has released its own estimates for the quarter, pegging Apple at a 1.1% year-over-year decline in U.S.


Which one do I believe?

Exactly. What is going on here??

Lancer
Jul 11, 2012, 07:21 PM
Now if they would only update the iMac I could help them increase their sales even more :D

faroZ06
Jul 11, 2012, 07:22 PM
Now if they would only update the iMac I could help them increase their sales even more :D

Yeah, it's getting ridiculous.

BornAgainMac
Jul 11, 2012, 07:23 PM
Apple's Share of U.S. PC Shipments Rises to 12% in 2Q 2012

vs

IDC has released its own estimates for the quarter, pegging Apple at a 1.1% year-over-year decline in U.S.


Which one do I believe?

I don't believe in those IDC trolls. :)

kdarling
Jul 11, 2012, 07:24 PM
Curious which company of the "Others" had more than 10% gain.

Someone really needs to start a company named "Others".

Sure, it would be listed at the end of every chart, but its sales would be incredible ;)

I don't know if raising the bar to disagreement is going to make for more civil discourse. Before I could just down vote. Now to express disagreement I have to reply "You are wrong" to everyone I disagree with.

True, and it also means the negative responder would have to explain why they disagree, which seems like a good requirement. Too many people seem to click down-vote for fan or personal reasons.

faroZ06
Jul 11, 2012, 07:30 PM
That awkward moment when the article contradicts itself...

----------

Apple, please:

Make a 13" retina MacBook Pro that isn't super-thin and super-expensive.
Update the iMacs and Mac Pros already!
Don't get rid of ethernet ports on the PCs.
Bring back Rosetta as an optional (maybe paid) install to get more to upgrade.
Update iWork and iLife, and include iWeb in iLife; I don't understand why it's gone.

bedifferent
Jul 11, 2012, 07:37 PM
Someone really needs to start a company named "Others".

Sure, it would be listed at the end of every chart, but its sales would be incredible ;)

ha love it, very clever :)

True, and it also means the negative responder would have to explain why they disagree, which seems like a good requirement. Too many people seem to click down-vote for fan or personal reasons.

Exactly. A lot of people down vote comments out of spite or other frivolous reasons, then do not contribute with a reasonable comment or any comment at all. This serves no purpose as the comment that gets voted down may actually be beneficial for many but the user may be ganged up on by several people for no reason other than they do not like the person or agree with their statement. It also is rather insulting to others and infuriating and discouraging when someone has a valid point but is bullied by regulars who seem to police the threads based on their own personal beliefs. That does not make for a very democratic community.:)

Jynto
Jul 11, 2012, 07:48 PM
The last time I saw a statistic like this, it included tablet sales, in which case a 12% rise for Apple is not that surprising.

archurban
Jul 11, 2012, 08:07 PM
it's only US market. overall growth rate in the world is still tiny. only dramatically impact is ipad, iphone devices not mac. that's why I don't care apple mac market share in the US. if they can't increase world market share, they won't be survived soon or later. they think that they do fine. but it's not. take a look at the world compter environment. mac is not still friendly or compatible. because you guys only live in US, you have no idea outside of country.

KnightWRX
Jul 11, 2012, 08:48 PM
The last time I saw a statistic like this, it included tablet sales, in which case a 12% rise for Apple is not that surprising.

This doesn't. Apple sold way more iPads than the 1910 x 1000 units listed here. This is just Macs.

JGowan
Jul 11, 2012, 08:55 PM
Release a new iMac and a new Mac Pro and those numbers will rise.

I dare you Apple.God, I miss the VOTE DOWN button. :(

BTW
Jul 11, 2012, 09:04 PM
Nice to see Apple is still gaining share. This despite being slow to upgrade their offerings. :cool:

KnightWRX
Jul 11, 2012, 09:09 PM
God, I miss the VOTE DOWN button. :(

Why ? If they did update the iMac and Mac Pro, they would probably get quite a few more sales, which is what the poster was hinting at. Why would you down vote him ?

Why not explain to us why you don't agree instead of cowardly down vote ?

blackhand1001
Jul 11, 2012, 09:13 PM
Samsung and Asus are probably the majority of the other category. Samsung has bursted into the pc scene in the last year.

longofest
Jul 11, 2012, 09:39 PM
Apple's Share of U.S. PC Shipments Rises to 12% in 2Q 2012 (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/11/apples-share-of-u-s-pc-shipments-rises-to-12-in-2q-2012/)

Bruce: What are they saying?
Alfred: Rise.

That is all.

bedifferent
Jul 11, 2012, 09:43 PM
Why ? If they did update the iMac and Mac Pro, they would probably get quite a few more sales, which is what the poster was hinting at. Why would you down vote him ?

Why not explain to us why you don't agree instead of cowardly down vote ?

Exactly, and it's been interesting reading comments from some that wish to down vote others as it's outing those who have been doing it for a while. So now we know who you are and ya can't hide ;)

cvaldes
Jul 11, 2012, 10:13 PM
Apple's Share of U.S. PC Shipments Rises to 12% in 2Q 2012

vs

IDC has released its own estimates for the quarter, pegging Apple at a 1.1% year-over-year decline in U.S.


Which one do I believe?
Neither.

These are industry analysts and they are worse than financial analysts.

At least professional financial analysts are graded by StarMine in terms of accuracy vis-a-vis their peers. The top 20% receive four- and five-stars. Professional financial analysts still miss by a lot and as a whole, they are outclassed by amateur financial analysts (at least in predicting AAPL fiscal performance).

There is no equivalent accuracy rating system for industry analysts. Their numbers are pretty much pulled out of a random body orifice (I'll give you three guesses as to which one, but you'll only need one guess).

So why are we reading this stuff here?

Because today's media site operators (MacRumors, AppleInsider, Cnet, Macworld, Engadget, etc.) worship the Almighty Pageview. True journalistic integrity died in the Nineties.

So they reblog a bunch of drivel from charlatans. Because if they don't, someone else will reblog the exact same material and get more hits.

Welcome to tech news publishing in 2012. Actually, more like 2002. It's been like this for a while, it's business as usual.

silroc
Jul 11, 2012, 11:19 PM
My view is that the total market is shrinking

That scares me but understandable with all the tablet sales-

zoomos
Jul 11, 2012, 11:26 PM
I want to buy some stock in "Other" they seem to be doing pretty awesome :)

Yochanan
Jul 11, 2012, 11:33 PM
The new Retina Display Macbook Pros could level out this line. Apple has managed to come up with a line of far more expensive laptops that is disposable.
The machines are unrepairable when they break. Once the buying public comes to grips with this unfortunate fact, all the rosy predictions will falter.

Mr. Gates
Jul 11, 2012, 11:38 PM
Sorry to interrupt but I think this is important.

So, what the heck is going on with MacRumors ?

Why is it that I can only vote UP a comment and not down ?

DoNoHarm
Jul 11, 2012, 11:46 PM
I'm really, really curious what percentage of total MBP sales are retina. With all this controversy about how environmentally unfriendly and unupgradable they are, I wonder if people will go for the old style body...

Laird Knox
Jul 12, 2012, 12:51 AM
Apple's Share of U.S. PC Shipments Rises to 12% in 2Q 2012

vs

IDC has released its own estimates for the quarter, pegging Apple at a 1.1% year-over-year decline in U.S.


Which one do I believe?

Exactly. What is going on here??

I don't believe in those IDC trolls. :)

Neither.

These are industry analysts and they are worse than financial analysts.

At least professional financial analysts are graded by StarMine in terms of accuracy vis-a-vis their peers. The top 20% receive four- and five-stars. Professional financial analysts still miss by a lot and as a whole, they are outclassed by amateur financial analysts (at least in predicting AAPL fiscal performance).

There is no equivalent accuracy rating system for industry analysts. Their numbers are pretty much pulled out of a random body orifice (I'll give you three guesses as to which one, but you'll only need one guess).

So why are we reading this stuff here?

Because today's media site operators (MacRumors, AppleInsider, Cnet, Macworld, Engadget, etc.) worship the Almighty Pageview. True journalistic integrity died in the Nineties.

So they reblog a bunch of drivel from charlatans. Because if they don't, someone else will reblog the exact same material and get more hits.

Welcome to tech news publishing in 2012. Actually, more like 2002. It's been like this for a while, it's business as usual.

Actually you are looking at numbers for two different things.

Gartner says their market share went from 10.8% to 12.0% while IDC says it went from about 12.5% to 11.4%.

Gartner shows this as a 4.3% year-over-year increase whereas IDC's number indicate a 1.1% y-o-y decrease.

washburn
Jul 12, 2012, 01:10 AM
how about a new iMac already

gpat
Jul 12, 2012, 01:48 AM
I would like Apple to release a Mac Pro-like case and OSX-enabled motherboard for $499. Mac DIY for you, ladies and gentlemen. Sold only through the online Apple store, so if it fails there are not any problems.

It would be in complete opposition with whatever they have done until now, and certainly not in their style, but they would keep an high profit margin, and appease those wanting an affordable tower.

gnasher729
Jul 12, 2012, 02:53 AM
Market share is a virtually meaningless statistic. The number that really matters is unit sales and growth in that department. Apple's 4.3% unit growth only looks good in comparison to the other near neighbor computer makers, and it only looks good because they grew backwards. In fact with or without Apple, the computer market shrunk in the quarter. Puts that "rise" into proper perspective.

Since the iPad is singlehandedly responsible for the shrinking (or not growing) PC market, I think that Apple isn't worrying too much about that.

gnasher729
Jul 12, 2012, 03:04 AM
I'm really, really curious what percentage of total MBP sales are retina. With all this controversy about how environmentally unfriendly and unupgradable they are, I wonder if people will go for the old style body...

There is artificial controversy about GPU speed. There is an artificial controversy about upgradability - but you know what you buy, and I can't see how a non-upgradeable Mac with 16 GB of RAM is any worse than one that can be upgraded to 16 GB. There are claims how the Retina MBP is environmentally unfriendly, which goes straight away when you look at actual facts. Like the "unreplaceable, unrepairable" battery that Apple replaces without problems, and the "unrecycleable" computers that Apple takes back for recycling.

What limits the Retina MBP is the number of retina displays that Apple can buy. US Store: "Shipping in 3-4 weeks".

And the feature where MacRumors joins consecutive posts seems to be broken.

madrag
Jul 12, 2012, 03:28 AM
God, I miss the VOTE DOWN button. :(

me too.

Renzatic
Jul 12, 2012, 03:44 AM
God, I miss the VOTE DOWN button. :(

I'm glad it's gone. Now you won't have perfectly reasonable posts being downvoted to hell and back simply because someone said something some other guy didn't like.

Such as "Android is a perfectly good platform, and competes quite well with iOS these days".

That's a true statement, but just mentioning Android in a positive light is enough to get people all riled up. If I said that within the first two pages of a thread, I would've been sporting a -15 for no other reason other than NUH UH UR DUM! I USE APPLE STUFF BECAUSE INNOVATION AND STEVE JOBS AND STUFF ITS THE BESTEST EVER -1".

Now if you disagree with something someone says, you have to make a post to air your disagreement. You can't just snipe at people passive aggressively anymore.

...though admittedly, this could end up being a double edged sword.

gnasher729
Jul 12, 2012, 04:01 AM
I'm glad it's gone. Now you won't have perfectly reasonable posts being downvoted to hell and back simply because someone said something some other guy didn't like.

Such as "Android is a perfectly good platform, and competes quite well with iOS these days".

That's a true statement, but just mentioning Android in a positive light is enough to get people all riled up. If I said that within the first two pages of a thread, I would've been sporting a -15 for no other reason other than NUH UH UR DUM! I USE APPLE STUFF BECAUSE INNOVATION AND STEVE JOBS AND STUFF ITS THE BESTEST EVER -1".

See, that's a post that I would vote down immediately, because of the claims you are making. On the other hand, I see being marked down by the Fandroids as a mark of honour. I'll miss that. Posts like "Apple actually does take back all the Macs for recycling", or "you say the Retina MBP battery can't be replaced, but Apple offers to do so for $199" usually getting from 2 to 4 negatives.

Renzatic
Jul 12, 2012, 04:22 AM
See, that's a post that I would vote down immediately, because of the claims you are making. On the other hand, I see being marked down by the Fandroids as a mark of honour. I'll miss that. Posts like "Apple actually does take back all the Macs for recycling", or "you say the Retina MBP battery can't be replaced, but Apple offers to do so for $199" usually getting from 2 to 4 negatives.

What it comes down to is I've made a post that should be floating in the -6 range, but instead sports a nice life affirming +1. And there ain't nothing anyone can do about it. :P

Also I upvoted you because I can't downvote you, and I have this HUGE DRIVING NEED TO CLICK AN ARROW THAT HAS TO BE SATED!

Skika
Jul 12, 2012, 04:26 AM
I would like Apple to release a Mac Pro-like case and OSX-enabled motherboard for $499. Mac DIY for you, ladies and gentlemen. Sold only through the online Apple store, so if it fails there are not any problems.

It would be in complete opposition with whatever they have done until now, and certainly not in their style, but they would keep an high profit margin, and appease those wanting an affordable tower.

I puked a little. This is horrible.

Renzatic
Jul 12, 2012, 04:34 AM
I puked a little. This is horrible.

Cuz God forbid anyone have a little initiative.

CodeBreaker
Jul 12, 2012, 04:38 AM
1. Tease with a flashy "new" OS
2. Drop support for hardware that's old but can still run the "new" OS
3. Record hardware sales

Renzatic
Jul 12, 2012, 04:41 AM
1. Tease with a flashy "new" OS
2. Drop support for hardware that's old but can still run the "new" OS
3. Record hardware sales

4. People eventually get sick of having to pay $2000 every 2-3 years just to have access to updated software.
5. History repeats itself.

foodog
Jul 12, 2012, 05:47 AM
???? So Apple sold 1910 macs? Thats not a lot to shout about is it.

Yes and four other companies sold slightly more than 2,000 units with every one else selling less.

----------

4. People eventually get sick of having to pay $2000 every 2-3 years just to have access to updated software.
5. History repeats itself.

My kids 2007 iMac will run ML when it is released... not sure where the 2-3 year nonsense is coming from.

usptact
Jul 12, 2012, 06:05 AM
Can somebody explain the regular drops in the last figure? We see a clear globally increasing trend in market share percentage. It seems that there is something bringing down the share in the 1st quarter....

----------

God, I miss the VOTE DOWN button. :(

Let's use some standardized reply to express the VOTE DOWN. They will eventually see that the button was more practical than many quotes with this message.

Daalseth
Jul 12, 2012, 06:09 AM
I'm really, really curious what percentage of total MBP sales are retina. With all this controversy about how environmentally unfriendly and unupgradable they are, I wonder if people will go for the old style body...

I did but only partially for environmental reasons. My crummy old eyes can't really take advantage of the retina display so that would be a waste (I opted for the Hi-Rez display and even it is more than I can really use. I needed at least 500Gb of drive space, but I didn't have unlimited money. The old style gave me what I needed for what I could spend. In addition I have the option of replacing the HD with an SSD down the road when the prices drop, adding RAM if needed, and replacing the battery myself. This means that I think I can get several more years out of the old beast before I'll need to replace it which is an environmental benefit.

strangeasangels
Jul 12, 2012, 06:31 AM
4. People eventually get sick of having to pay $2000 every 2-3 years just to have access to updated software.
5. History repeats itself.

My iMac's five years old and Mountain Lion still supports it. I don't think this "2-3 years" means what you think it means.

gnasher729
Jul 12, 2012, 06:33 AM
I did but only partially for environmental reasons. My crummy old eyes can't really take advantage of the retina display so that would be a waste (I opted for the Hi-Rez display and even it is more than I can really use. I needed at least 500Gb of drive space, but I didn't have unlimited money. The old style gave me what I needed for what I could spend. In addition I have the option of replacing the HD with an SSD down the road when the prices drop, adding RAM if needed, and replacing the battery myself. This means that I think I can get several more years out of the old beast before I'll need to replace it which is an environmental benefit.

I think you are misunderstanding what a Retina display does. It's better to think of it not as having four times as many pixels, but as having the usual 1440 x 900 pixels, but at a much higher quality. And your crummy old eyes will appreciate it. Yes, needing 500 GB is a valid argument against it, but your eyes would be better off with a retina display.


Can somebody explain the regular drops in the last figure? We see a clear globally increasing trend in market share percentage. It seems that there is something bringing down the share in the 1st quarter....

Apple always has a good 4th calendar quarter (that's the Christmas quarter), and there is one "back to school" quarter where lots of students by MacBooks. Then there is always some slowdown when something new is announced and a huge rush of sales when the new thing actually comes, so sales always go up and down through the year. That's why you can only make meaningful comparisons to the same quarter in the previous year. Even then it can be tricky.

NewbieCanada
Jul 12, 2012, 07:05 AM
Why ? If they did update the iMac and Mac Pro, they would probably get quite a few more sales, which is what the poster was hinting at. Why would you down vote him ?


Mac Pro sales, even if a new one were launched, are an unmeasurably small percentage of the overall PC market.

I'm really, really curious what percentage of total MBP sales are retina. With all this controversy about how environmentally unfriendly and unupgradable they are, I wonder if people will go for the old style body...

A month after launch there's still a 3-4 week wait to get one. I'm pretty sure they're selling well.

cdmoore74
Jul 12, 2012, 07:09 AM
me too.

Your correct. I tried to vote you down but the button is missing.

hickabob
Jul 12, 2012, 07:12 AM
The economy must not be THAT bad if 1 out of 12 Americans buying a computer can afford a mac...

Rogifan
Jul 12, 2012, 07:23 AM
God, I miss the VOTE DOWN button. :(

If they're going to get rid of the down vote button then get rid of the up vote to.

ericinboston
Jul 12, 2012, 07:24 AM
The economy must not be THAT bad if 1 out of 12 Americans buying a computer can afford a mac...

Your stat is wrong...at best it is: 1 out of every 12 people who purchased a computer bought a Mac.

whooleytoo
Jul 12, 2012, 07:29 AM
Can somebody explain the regular drops in the last figure? We see a clear globally increasing trend in market share percentage. It seems that there is something bringing down the share in the 1st quarter....

Apple does tend to have blow-out 4th quarters - perhaps lots of people give Macs as Christmas presents? - followed by a lean 1st quarter. If Macs are more popular Christmas gifts than PCs, it might partly explain it.

hickabob
Jul 12, 2012, 07:51 AM
Your stat is wrong...at best it is: 1 out of every 12 people who purchased a computer bought a Mac.

My understanding is that this article is about the US Market... It specifies that many times and on each chart. Maybe my understanding of the "market" and it's division is lacking (honestly it could).

gnasher729
Jul 12, 2012, 07:58 AM
Your stat is wrong...at best it is: 1 out of every 12 people who purchased a computer bought a Mac.

I guess we shouldn't discuss maths education if people equate "12 percent" with "one in 12 people". (Just noticed you just copied the number from someone else).


The economy must not be THAT bad if 1 out of 12 Americans buying a computer can afford a mac...

In twelve percent of purchases (a lot more than "one in twelve") someone _spent the money_ to buy a Macintosh.

1. It doesn't mean they can afford it. Some people live over their means.

2. Not buying a Macintosh doesn't mean you can't afford it. I buy what I like, and what I can justify to myself, not what I can afford. Most people can afford nose rings but don't buy them because they don't like them.

3. Many purchases are made by companies, not by "people", and Apple sells somewhat less to companies. So it is very likely that much more than 12% of the individuals buying computers will buy Macs.

I would assume that most Americans can afford to buy a Macintosh. I _know_ that most British and most German people can.

rdlink
Jul 12, 2012, 08:09 AM
Market share is a virtually meaningless statistic. The number that really matters is unit sales and growth in that department. Apple's 4.3% unit growth only looks good in comparison to the other near neighbor computer makers, and it only looks good because they grew backwards. In fact with or without Apple, the computer market shrunk in the quarter. Puts that "rise" into proper perspective.


You're not wrong, but keep in mind that Apple's share is growing in a market that they are helping to kill with another of their products (iPad/iOS).

bobajoul
Jul 12, 2012, 08:15 AM
It is the profitability that matters. The other guys barely break even. Follow the money!!!!! Apple is making money hand over fist. Dell and HP would love to be in Apple's position.

hickabob
Jul 12, 2012, 08:24 AM
I guess we shouldn't discuss maths education if people equate "12 percent" with "one in 12 people". (Just noticed you just copied the number from someone else).




In twelve percent of purchases (a lot more than "one in twelve") someone _spent the money_ to buy a Macintosh.

1. It doesn't mean they can afford it. Some people live over their means.

2. Not buying a Macintosh doesn't mean you can't afford it. I buy what I like, and what I can justify to myself, not what I can afford. Most people can afford nose rings but don't buy them because they don't like them.

3. Many purchases are made by companies, not by "people", and Apple sells somewhat less to companies. So it is very likely that much more than 12% of the individuals buying computers will buy Macs.

I would assume that most Americans can afford to buy a Macintosh. I _know_ that most British and most German people can.

You are very right 12% is not 1 in 12 it's closer to 1 in 8, my mistake... I'm a little slow this morning.

And I agree with your points...

selva
Jul 12, 2012, 08:26 AM
What I would like to see is not just percent of PC shipments for the Q but also the desktop / notebook os market share data.

monkor
Jul 12, 2012, 08:35 AM
Everyone who says that Macs are overpriced needs to take a good long look at these figures. Some of the cheaper alternatives (hardware and/or windows software) simply donít work as well as they should and, if something does not work as well as it should, then it could be free - itís still no use.

Every Mac Iíve bought since 1986 has made my eyes water price-wise (esp. when comparing it to cheaper alternatives available at the time) and yet every time Iíve bought a new computer itís been a Mac - not because Iím a fan-boy (I am) but because it always does what I want it to do, and often more - from the moment I get it out of the box until long after I sell it. I used a PC just last week for a few hours. The UI was ugly, it crashed twice, it kept asking me stupid questions and then could not find my digital camera without a long, drawn out installation session.

The day Ballmer, Dell and various other people get their heads around the fact that lots and lots and lots of people, even in hard times, will pay that little bit more in return for almost 100% customer satisfaction, is the day the trend shown in this graph will be reversed.

Ballmer, however, wonít ever get it - because the manís an idiot and a liability to Microsoftís legacy.

Steve got it. Jony gets it. Bob (who will be missed) gets it. Phil gets it.

So yeah, we go out with our hard earned burning our wallets - and we get it.

This is the dumbest statement I've heard in a long time. I typically stay tight lipped about Mac vs. PC argument (considering they're incredibly similar computers and it's based on personal preference), but your comment stands out amongst the pantheon of stupid statements.

What computer were you using? Because if you buy/use a cheap, piece of **** PC, then guess what? You're going to get cheap, piece of **** service. It's like going to McDonald's and expecting a gourmet burger. The fact is Mac doesn't cut corners for their products, so the end result is that it's an expensive product with all the bells and whistles, but with a massive price tag. They don't sell budget computers for the monetarily less endowed individual; if you can't afford it, you can't buy it (they do however offer great discounts for students, which is how I ended up with my MB). As a result, they don't sacrifice quality.

But guess what? High-End PC's don't sacrifice quality, either! My brother uses a "high-end" PC, and guess what? It takes a dump on Mac computers. Any of them. And go figure, he paid less than the best Mac has to offer. As a result, he can game and do anything a Mac can do with absolutely no issues. Whatever PC you were using couldn't have been running Windows 7, because were it actually then you'd realize the OS doesn't crash. I have it on my laptop, and it has never crashed. Can you get that? And who would've thought that my POS MSi laptop still beats most Macs in Benchmarks. I won't even tell you how much I paid for it, because it was pennies. And the build is impeccable. If you buy a POS low-end Dell, watch some porn, get a virus, then complain about it, you deserve it.

And what the F does Steve Ballmer have to do with Dell? Dell runs an OS, doesn't build the hardware. If you've got beef about hardware, then go yell at Michael Dell. He'll probably giggle considering his net worth would suggest that you're in the minority when it comes to critical opinions on build quality of high end Dell's, but whatever. Ballmer? Yeah, he freaking blows considering he's managed to get Microsoft to miss on the mobile music arena, tablet platform, televisions, basically everything. He should've been fired a long time ago. But Ballmer has essentially nothing to do with the technological vision of Microsoft. Then again your question is so bassackwards that it's hard to make much sense of it...

Frobozz
Jul 12, 2012, 08:44 AM
I like this slow but steady incline. It reinforces the idea that Apple's market share is trending upwards at a stable, sustainable increase at times when others are dropping precipitously.

Lennholm
Jul 12, 2012, 08:47 AM
Everything is severely down except for Apple and "other". Are more people switching to ASUS or building PCs? I heard ASUS is actually good, and in my experience, HP is the worst.

Yes, Asus makes the best consumer PC's, atleast when taking into account how much they cost. They give the best value. HP probably gives the worst value, they don't make the worst computers of course, but when taking the price into the equation... (still speaking of consumer PC's)

Frobozz
Jul 12, 2012, 08:48 AM
This is the dumbest statement I've heard in a long time. I typically stay tight lipped about Mac vs. PC argument (considering they're incredibly similar computers and it's based on personal preference), but your comment stands out amongst the pantheon of stupid statements.


The rest of this quote continues. Look, you can disagree with him all you want. But try to keep things civil. FWIW (not much?), I think he made fairly rational point. Your response if seriously inflamed for god know's what reason.

I miss the down-vote.

Winni
Jul 12, 2012, 09:16 AM
This is US only. International shipments for ASUS and Lenovo have skyrocketed way past Apples sales.

ASUS was + 39 % and Lenovo was +19%

In most countries, Apple is irrelevant as a computer brand. They don't sell business systems, they don't sell business software and they're too expensive for the majority of home users.

Also, the general consumer behavior is different outside the US - most people don't buy (expensive) gadgets as an accessory or status symbol. The majority still sees computers and phones and TOOLS, not as ends in themselves.

It's hard to sell a 13" MacBook Air for EUR 1250 when you can have an Acer Ultrabook with the same screen size for EUR 599. And this is a market where Apple is ONLY two times as expensive as the competition.

15.4" notebooks with Core i3 CPUs that are more than good enough for all everyday tasks can be bought for 400 Euros. Sure, you don't get the Apple Unibody design, it's all plastic. But you already get more horsepower for that money than most people ever need for their Office and web browsing purposes. 15" MacBook Pros on the other hand start at 1879 Euros in Germany - that's 4.5 times the price for the cheapest 15" model that Apple offers.

Yeah, I know the bla bla about when you compare, you need to compare on the same level. Well, I actually did that. I compared the CHEAPEST Acer model with the CHEAPEST Apple model in the same class. Duh!

If I spend the same money on, let's say, a Sony Vaio, among other things I get a much faster CPU, longer battery life, twice the RAM and an SSD disk instead of the slow hard disk that the Macbook Pro for that price only has.

You need some very convincing sales arguments to get NORMAL people to spend that amount of money on a computer, and then you need even more convincing arguments to talk them into spending the same amount of money on LESS hardware.

And again, let's not forget this tiny little detail here: Apple have turned themselves into a consumer brand. That's an awful lot of money for stuff that you will only use at home to surf the web and check the updates from your virtual "friends" on Facebook. And the reality is that those webpages that Safari/Chrome/Firefox display look exactly the same on all supported operating systems (which in the case of Chrome and Firefox include Linux and Android and not just OS X and Windows).

a.gomez
Jul 12, 2012, 09:23 AM
so basically use the numbers that make you feel good on the head and article and set the IDC numbers as a note at the end.

regardless, out of 87.5 million PCs looks like about 4 million of them will be MACs - the PCvsMac question was settled a long time ago, OSX will never be the end of Windows - people should let it go.

hayesk
Jul 12, 2012, 09:33 AM
For now they have excellent products. Yes, a little more expensive, but their stuff lasts and lasts.

1994 Quicksilver DP still going strong as my desktop got it all the way up to Tiger
2002 G4 Sunflower iMac same on a second desk all the way up to 10.5.8

They still do all I need them to do at work.

We'll assume you meant 2004 Quicksilver DP.

G51989
Jul 12, 2012, 09:38 AM
Yes, Asus makes the best consumer PC's, atleast when taking into account how much they cost. They give the best value. HP probably gives the worst value, they don't make the worst computers of course, but when taking the price into the equation... (still speaking of consumer PC's)

ASUS makes great stuff overall.

But, the best money to build ratio I've seen so far in the consumer world is Dell, the high end stuff is pretty good to.

Correct, HPs consumer grade stuff is terrible. But they make some pretty great workstations.

Applr has expanded its market a little bit. Which is good, but I think to many factors will keep it sub 30 percent.

What's with the ipad killing the pc market comments? The ipad can replace the laptop or desktop pc for light users. Other than that. No

----------

And I just don't think we will see huge OSX growth long term because, Apple doesn't sell mid range priced computers, in the 700 to 1000 dollar range, where I would guess lots of people buy at.

Also, apple does not provide anything for business, half the market right there, which is fine. They are a consumer company

mjtomlin
Jul 12, 2012, 09:41 AM
OSX will never be the end of Windows - people should let it go.

This is very true... but, iOS+OS X will be! ;)

Actually, it will be a long, long time before Windows ever disappears as Microsoft has many enterprise licensees that have guaranteed them a spot in IT for several more versions of Windows.

But it is curious as to why both of these "groups" fail to count iPads (tablets) as computers? They are clearly in the same market and changing a lot of people's purchasing decisions.

gnasher729
Jul 12, 2012, 10:10 AM
Just read this article:

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2012/07/12/global_pc_market_q2/

"Gartner said Lenovo posted strong growth in EMEA but noted "there is growing concern of the inventory build toward the second half of 2012".

It is worth adding that Lenovo's EMEA boss Gianfranco Lanci used to be Acer's CEO and carried the can for last year's inventory debacle at his former employer, which was forced to write down ageing kit discovered in a warehouse in Spain."


so basically use the numbers that make you feel good on the head and article and set the IDC numbers as a note at the end.

regardless, out of 87.5 million PCs looks like about 4 million of them will be MACs - the PCvsMac question was settled a long time ago, OSX will never be the end of Windows - people should let it go.

Apple has sold a lot more than 4 million Macs in the previous quarter; I'd say they will be at about 5.8% of world wide sales this quarter. You'll see on the 24th, at least you will be able to compare Apple's official numbers with Garter's estimates. PC vs. Mac question is of course not settled - at the going rate Macs will outsell all PCs in about 2030 :-) Seriously, Mac sales keep and keep growing, while Windows 8 is stillborn. But that is unit sales. Apple has > 10% of world wide revenue, and probably more than half the world wide profit.

And some people add tablets to the total sales, and they see that after being #1 in calendar Q4 and just barely #2 in Q1, Apple is likely to be #1 in worldwide sales again, and set to stay there.

And MacOS X won't be the end of Windows - Ballmer will!!!

Just adding this: http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/analyst_q3_ipad_sales_could_hit_20m/

Analysts estimate iPad sales in the 2nd calendar quarter to be 20 million. So counting desktops, laptops and tablets together, Apple will be close to the total of HP and Lenovo in world wide unit sales.

G51989
Jul 12, 2012, 10:12 AM
This is very true... but, iOS+OS X will be! ;)

Actually, it will be a long, long time before Windows ever disappears as Microsoft has many enterprise licensees that have guaranteed them a spot in IT for several more versions of Windows.

But it is curious as to why both of these "groups" fail to count iPads (tablets) as computers? They are clearly in the same market and changing a lot of people's purchasing decisions.

iOS and OSX won't be the death of windows ever ;)

iPads aren't counter as " computers " most likely because they are very limited compared to a desktop/laptop " computer ". They might change users who don't do much besides facebook and youtube, but anyone who wants to get work done or play real games will still go for a desktop/ laptop

bedifferent
Jul 12, 2012, 10:27 AM
The rest of this quote continues. Look, you can disagree with him all you want. But try to keep things civil. FWIW (not much?), I think he made fairly rational point. Your response if seriously inflamed for god know's what reason.

I miss the down-vote.

Actually, this is good. It is getting people who normally downvote to post a comment instead of a passive-aggressive vote. This brings these people out and allows us to see who is offering civil discourse versus disrespectful banter, thus enables people to ignore those users. It also keeps those individuals who do have good points from being bullied by a select few who down vote their comment(s) even though their points may be beneficial to many.

Personally, I'd do away with all of it, but removing the negative voting is a breath of fresh air. So many times I see new members get reamed for an innocent question by MacRumors "police" with negative votes, and they don't return. They're new and don't have the thick skin yet, sure, but should they have to in the first place? :)

esp211
Jul 12, 2012, 10:46 AM
iOS and OSX won't be the death of windows ever ;)

iPads aren't counter as " computers " most likely because they are very limited compared to a desktop/laptop " computer ". They might change users who don't do much besides facebook and youtube, but anyone who wants to get work done or play real games will still go for a desktop/ laptop

Windows will never die because it is a commodity. Any cheap, old, or crappy computer will run Windows just like Android is to tablets and phones.

iPads should definitely be counted as computers since they are slowly but surely replacing the desktop/laptop. Not everyone uses computers for work. And if they do, they can use the iPad to do pretty much everything. Besides Apple computers typically run Windows better than HP, Dell, etc.

bawbac
Jul 12, 2012, 10:56 AM
You are very right 12% is not 1 in 12 it's closer to 1 in 8, my mistake... I'm a little slow this morning.

And I agree with your points...

12 out of 100 Or less than 1.2 out of 10. :)

----------


But it is curious as to why both of these "groups" fail to count iPads (tablets) as computers? They are clearly in the same market and changing a lot of people's purchasing decisions.
Because iPads are not used in a way a typical computer would be used, such as work or school related tasks. Instead, the majority use for the iPad is web browsing, playing simple games or reading.

----------

Windows will never die because it is a commodity. Any cheap, old, or crappy computer will run Windows just like Android is to tablets and phones.

iPads should definitely be counted as computers since they are slowly but surely replacing the desktop/laptop. Not everyone uses computers for work. And if they do, they can use the iPad to do pretty much everything. Besides Apple computers typically run Windows better than HP, Dell, etc.
You are misinformed and giving Windows to much credit if you think their latest OS can run on any PC platform/chipset/processor.

I guess if your job is reading menus or flight plans, the iPad is sufficient for "work" use but for the majority, we need real computers with better performance & interfaces to get real work done.

G51989
Jul 12, 2012, 10:57 AM
Windows will never die because it is a commodity. Any cheap, old, or crappy computer will run Windows just like Android is to tablets and phones.

iPads should definitely be counted as computers since they are slowly but surely replacing the desktop/laptop. Not everyone uses computers for work. And if they do, they can use the iPad to do pretty much everything. Besides Apple computers typically run Windows better than HP, Dell, etc.

Ipads will not be replacing the desktop or laptop any time soon.

Lots of people still want desktops and laptops, otherwise 80+ million pcs wouldn't have shipped last Q.

If you think you can use an ipad to do pretty much anything. You've clearly never worked in the business world.

Ipads are very limited machines.

gnasher729
Jul 12, 2012, 11:34 AM
Ipads will not be replacing the desktop or laptop any time soon.

But they have as good as killed the netbook market already. And they have about 20% of the total sales of laptops and desktops already, while just freshly introduced.

G51989
Jul 12, 2012, 11:40 AM
But they have as good as killed the netbook market already. And they have about 20% of the total sales of laptops and desktops already, while just freshly introduced.

Yes, they sell well, but they are for the most part an accessorie, not a replacement.

The netbook was already on its deathbed.

I'd take a high end netbook over an ipad any day, much more capable.

And I don't think people understand how many PCs are out there. There have already been over half a billion copies of windows 7 copies sold, and 80 or so million PCs shipped just last quarter alone.

AppleFan1984
Jul 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
As long as the profits don't plummet, market share is irrelevant!
Those of us who've been using Macs since the '80s know that it works the other way too: if market share falls below a credible threshold, third parties start walking, the ecosystem shrinks, and investors take notice.

I see no sign of this happening now, but for the long run it can be helpful to keep in mind. Market share has a role.

----------

Exactly. What is going on here??
At best, Mac sales are effectively flat.

At worst:

Apple to post fiscal Q4 miss on cannibalized Mac sales, analyst says
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/07/10/apple_to_post_fiscal_q4_miss_on_cannibalized_mac_sales_analyst_says.html

esp211
Jul 12, 2012, 12:01 PM
Ipads will not be replacing the desktop or laptop any time soon.

Lots of people still want desktops and laptops, otherwise 80+ million pcs wouldn't have shipped last Q.

If you think you can use an ipad to do pretty much anything. You've clearly never worked in the business world.

Ipads are very limited machines.

Numbers prove you wrong. PC sales are down but iPads are up.

I have been working in real estate investment for 10+ years so again, you are wrong. I can do 90% of my work on an iPad. The only thing I can't do is Excel but I can remotely access my work pc if I really wanted to. If you think iPads are very limited then you haven't used one for an extended period of time.

G51989
Jul 12, 2012, 12:13 PM
Numbers prove you wrong. PC sales are down but iPads are up.

I have been working in real estate investment for 10+ years so again, you are wrong. I can do 90% of my work on an iPad. The only thing I can't do is Excel but I can remotely access my work pc if I really wanted to. If you think iPads are very limited then you haven't used one for an extended period of time.

Ahhh yes, pc sales are down a little. It goes in cycles. Come holiday season, I bet they'll go up.

Trust me, the ipad won't kill the desktop/laptop.

Ahhh yes real estate! the last true bastion of the power user.

Yes I have used ab ipad for an extended period. Its very very limited.

An ipad would probably melt if you ran my simulation software.

esp211
Jul 12, 2012, 12:17 PM
Ahhh yes, pc sales are down a little. It goes in cycles. Come holiday season, I bet they'll go up.

Trust me, the ipad won't kill the desktop/laptop.

Ahhh yes real estate! the last true bastion of the power user.

Yes I have used ab ipad for an extended period. Its very very limited.

An ipad would probably melt if you ran my simulation software.

Which do you think will go up more in the next 6 months? PCs or iPads? I'll save your post and we'll revisit it after the holiday season.

Who said I was a power user? I work in the business world and do real things on the iPad. Maybe for you it's limited but for millions out there buying them, it is not.

G51989
Jul 12, 2012, 12:35 PM
Which do you think will go up more in the next 6 months? PCs or iPads? I'll save your post and we'll revisit it after the holiday season.

Who said I was a power user? I work in the business world and do real things on the iPad. Maybe for you it's limited but for millions out there buying them, it is not.

I bet PC sales will go up and down. And I bet ipad sales will go up, but won't get close to PC sales. Ill bet 50 bucks on that.

And sure, maybe for you its not limited, but for many many people it is.

That could be why almost the entire business world runs on " wintels ".

Do you really see large companies dropping theit very productive, long lasting and reliable wintels for a disposible tablet? I sure as hell don't.

A couple million ipads have in the business world yes. But its a smakl number compared to the billion or so wintel machines being used around the world.

esp211
Jul 12, 2012, 12:53 PM
I bet PC sales will go up and down. And I bet ipad sales will go up, but won't get close to PC sales. Ill bet 50 bucks on that.

Way to go out on a limb. :rolleyes: Save your $50 for your next netbook. I'll put mine towards an AAPL stock.


And sure, maybe for you its not limited, but for many many people it is.


I never said otherwise. You are the one speaking for everyone.


That could be why almost the entire business world runs on " wintels ".


Or maybe because the iPad came out just 2 years ago while PC has been around for several decades?


Do you really see large companies dropping theit very productive, long lasting and reliable wintels for a disposible tablet? I sure as hell don't.


In 5-10 years absolutely. PC's won't resemble today's. Wintels are reliable? :D


A couple million ipads have in the business world yes. But its a smakl number compared to the billion or so wintel machines being used around the world.

Again, it's kind of ridiculous to compare a 2 year old product to something that's been around for decades.

hickabob
Jul 12, 2012, 01:29 PM
12 out of 100 Or less than 1.2 out of 10. :)



1.2/10 is the same as 1/8.33 ;)

fertilized-egg
Jul 12, 2012, 01:58 PM
iOS and OSX won't be the death of windows ever ;)

iPads aren't counter as " computers " most likely because they are very limited compared to a desktop/laptop " computer ". They might change users who don't do much besides facebook and youtube, but anyone who wants to get work done or play real games will still go for a desktop/ laptop

iOS certainly is a big threat to Microsoft. Microsoft already has a near monopoly in the "get work done or play real games" Windows market. That market lays golden egg but it's not growing as quickly as others, or even getting smaller in some areas. The mobile market is where the growth is and Windows isn't making much progress there.

More worryingly for Microsoft, as iOS improves and get more capable, they'll be more work for the likes of iPad and less for full blown Windows. Even businesses will find ways to incorporate iPads into their workflow in some capacity and use Windows less.

Also as users get familiar with iOS, it's very possible that more will consider Mac and OSX as their desktop instead of Windows PC. If they start with iOS, they could very well choose a Mac because it fits their ecosystem, UI familiarity, etc better.

It won't replace Windows and Windows but the role of Windows could very well get much smaller relative to the total market size. Worse, as seen in Windows 8's initial upgrade price, it means Microsoft now has to think about lowering licensing fees on Windows.

BaldiMac
Jul 12, 2012, 02:07 PM
Good job, Apple! Over the past 6 years you've gone from 4% to about 12%, give or take a Quarter. But to be fair it has been hovering around 10% for 2+ years. The only way Apple is going to break any kind of 20% marketshare is:

1)drop the prices (or offer much cheaper models) so more consumers can afford Apple

and/or

2)play more nicely with businesses so businesses adopt

until the above 2 are somehow met, Apple's probably near the cap of folks who will drop $1200+ for a desktop PC or $1000 for their cheapest laptop.


But maybe Apple wants to sit in the 4%-15% market share range and collect hefty profits. I dunno. Nothing really wrong with that unless you make some mistakes and your market share really plummets.

3) Keep improving the iPad to the point that Gartner and IDC decide to consider it part of the PC market.

IJ Reilly
Jul 12, 2012, 02:33 PM
You're not wrong, but keep in mind that Apple's share is growing in a market that they are helping to kill with another of their products (iPad/iOS).

Granted the PC market is shifting somewhat to tablets but I would not go nearly as far as to say that it is being killed by tablets. Not yet, at least, that's for sure. For several years running Apple enjoyed quarter after quarter of double-digit unit growth in desktop and laptop PCs, and they were managing this even in quarters when the Windows PC market was flat to barely growing. Not sure what that means in this stinko economy, but it isn't a development that can just be shrugged off.

G51989
Jul 12, 2012, 02:52 PM
3) Keep improving the iPad to the point that Gartner and IDC decide to consider it part of the PC market.

I think Microsoft already did that with the surface? ( yes, I know its not out yet )

I consider the Surface much more of a " PC " than a " tablet.

BaldiMac
Jul 12, 2012, 02:57 PM
I think Microsoft already did that with the surface? ( yes, I know its not out yet )

I consider the Surface much more of a " PC " than a " tablet.

Microsoft tablets have been counted with PCs for the last decade.

G51989
Jul 12, 2012, 03:05 PM
iOS certainly is a big threat to Microsoft. Microsoft already has a near monopoly in the "get work done or play real games" Windows market..

Microsoft's Bread and Butter is the Enterprise Market, Apple poses zero threat in that area. Some iPads and iPhones will make it in, and already have, but the enterprise world will be ruled by Windows for some time to come, and its not like Apple has failed to get into the enterprise market, they just don't care about it. Microsoft pretty much as a monopoly, other than a bit of Linux.

iOS doesn't effect the big time enterprise Market, the gaming market, or the console market, I'd say Microsoft will be just fine.

More worryingly for Microsoft, as iOS improves and get more capable, they'll be more work for the likes of iPad and less for full blown Windows. Even businesses will find ways to incorporate iPads into their workflow in some capacity and use Windows less.

Of course you can put an iPad into the workflow, and some business's to, and for some people its a great thing. But as far as huge enterpise networks go, windows will still be king.

Because for MOST business users, a largeish screen, keyboard, and big multi tasking is a must.

I could see the Microsoft Surface Pro really starting to take off in the business world when it comes out, because not only is it a more productive machine, it will most likely be super easy to integrate with a large Windows System.


Also as users get familiar with iOS, it's very possible that more will consider Mac and OSX as their desktop instead of Windows PC. If they start with iOS, they could very well choose a Mac because it fits their ecosystem, UI familiarity, etc better.

The problem is, most people have zero desire to spend that kind of money on a Mac, now for me a couple grand isn't really an object, so thats why I use a Mac as my fun machine. ( Gaming PC does the real fun tho ;) )but I know that most people have zero interest in spending over 1000 dollars on a machine. They are far more likely to buy a 500-600 dollar Dell or HP than a Mac, even with iOS. And with Apple dropping support for their software VERY quickly, that's a turn off for some people who expect 5-8 years out of a machine.

It won't replace Windows and Windows but the role of Windows could very well get much smaller relative to the total market size. Worse, as seen in Windows 8's initial upgrade price, it means Microsoft now has to think about lowering licensing fees on Windows.

Of course it won't replace windows. I don't think Windows will get much smaller because its pretty much the industry standard. And Microsoft has done a great job of making OS's recently ( Not vista LOLZ ). Windows 8 already looks great, and Windows 8 Tablets+Surface really could come out into the mobile market, impossible to tell yet. ( Don't say Zune people. Thats one Failure. Apple's had plenty of failures as well ).

smoledman
Jul 12, 2012, 03:09 PM
So bottom line is Macs continue to experience explosive growth while Windows PCs are declining.

G51989
Jul 12, 2012, 03:23 PM
Way to go out on a limb. :rolleyes: Save your $50 for your next netbook. I'll put mine towards an AAPL stock.


I don't have a netbook, and I already own APPL stock, thank you very much ;)

I never said otherwise. You are the one speaking for everyone.

I think I am speaking for a good majority of users who didn't buy an iPad because iOS/the hardware is just to limited. That's why I'm excited for the surface pro.

Or maybe because the iPad came out just 2 years ago while PC has been around for several decades?

Tablets have been around before the iPad btw, and they do have their place in business. So does an iPad for some things. But iPads/Tablets will not replace the PC for a long time.

an iPad is not as productive for MOST business use ( go ahead, type a 40 page report, or have multiple spread sheets running on an iPad....oh wait ).

For you, sure. But for your average larger company running god who knows what.

They look for longevity.
Compatibility
Productivity
Decent Amount of hardware for future proofing.
On Site Repair
I could go on.

An iPad merely supplements most business work, it cannot perform a very large number of tasks that a desktop/laptop PC can. It can't even really multi task.

One of the reasons I think Microsoft came up with the Surface. It could be a low end laptop replacement.

I don't say this kind of stuff because I hate the iPad, I don't hate the iPad. Its an awesome device, but its just not a super productive machine. It can supplement the desktop, but not replace it for most enterprise situations.

In 5-10 years absolutely. PC's won't resemble today's.

Of course they won't, esp in the consumer world. We'll see lots of set top boxes, crazy tablets, things like that. But trust me, for the more serious users. You'll still see something like a tower or mini tower, or slimline with upgradeable parts that are easy to repair. Because your not gonna cram a workstation into a tablet, even in 10 years. A high end Workstation from 10 years ago will still rape something like an iPad.

We'll see lots of tablets in every market in 5-10 years, but they won't replace desktops and laptops totally. And they won't all be made by Apple.

Wintels are reliable?

Yes they are, I've been working on and with them for the better part of a decade. Macs to, With the exception of Vista and Windows ME, I've never had reliability issues with Wintel computers. They are great machines for what they are supposed to do.

Ever been in a large business envioment? Theres a very good chance you'll see very few, if any Macs.

Again, it's kind of ridiculous to compare a 2 year old product to something that's been around for decades.

By 2, you mean 10. The tablet has been around for much longer than the iPad.

----------

So bottom line is Macs continue to experience explosive growth while Windows PCs are declining.

I'm not sure were you are getting explosive growth from. Its still hovering around 10% as it has been for years. I suspect the RMBP makes up a very good number of these sales.

----------

Microsoft tablets have been counted with PCs for the last decade.

There has never been a Microsoft built tablet until the Surface ;)

BaldiMac
Jul 12, 2012, 03:27 PM
Tablets have been around before the iPad btw, and they do have their place in business. So does an iPad for some things. But iPads/Tablets will not replace the PC for a long time.

an iPad is not as productive for MOST business use ( go ahead, type a 40 page report, or have multiple spread sheets running on an iPad....oh wait ).

For you, sure. But for your average larger company running god who knows what.

They look for longevity.
Compatibility
Productivity
Decent Amount of hardware for future proofing.
On Site Repair
I could go on.

An iPad merely supplements most business work, it cannot perform a very large number of tasks that a desktop/laptop PC can. It can't even really multi task.

The part that you and others seem to be missing with this argument is that an iPad doesn't have to replace your primary PC to replace a PC.

G51989
Jul 12, 2012, 03:29 PM
The part that you and others seem to be missing with this argument is that an iPad doesn't have to replace your primary PC to replace a PC.

I'm kind of saying the same thing.

Yes, it can supplement a PC, even in the business world it can. But it cannot, as it stands right now. REPLACE said PC. A time may come when it can, but as of now. It cannot.

NewbieCanada
Jul 12, 2012, 03:30 PM
iPads should definitely be counted as computers since they are slowly but surely replacing the desktop/laptop.

Using that logic, cars should be counted as horses. :p

BaldiMac
Jul 12, 2012, 03:37 PM
I'm kind of saying the same thing.

Yes, it can supplement a PC, even in the business world it can. But it cannot, as it stands right now. REPLACE said PC. A time may come when it can, but as of now. It cannot.

That's not the same thing at all. That's the exact opposite of my point. A secondary PC is still a PC. If an iPad replaces a secondary PC, it has replaced a PC. Not simply supplemented a PC.

G51989
Jul 12, 2012, 03:38 PM
That's not the same thing at all. That's the exact opposite of my point. A secondary PC is still a PC. If an iPad replaces a secondary PC, it has replaced a PC. Not simply supplemented a PC.

Alright, I see your point. Though at least in all my work experience. We've never really had a " secondary PC " . We've had a high end laptop, and a workstation.

BaldiMac
Jul 12, 2012, 03:46 PM
Using that logic, cars should be counted as horses. :p

If only we had professional market analyst's back then. :)

But his point still holds. Market definitions evolve over time. And market analysts aren't doing their job if they ignore significant factors in their analysis of an industry over arbitrary definitions.

----------

Alright, I see your point. Though at least in all my work experience. We've never really had a " secondary PC " . We've had a high end laptop, and a workstation.

:confused: If you had two PCs, one is your primary PC and one is your secondary PC.

G51989
Jul 12, 2012, 03:50 PM
If only we had professional market analyst's back then. :)

But his point still holds. Market definitions evolve over time. And market analysts aren't doing their job if they ignore significant factors in their analysis of an industry over arbitrary definitions.

----------



:confused: If you had two PCs, one is your primary PC and one is your secondary PC.

Yeah, but for example. The iPad can't replace the Desktop ( dur ). And I guess you could say the laptop is a secondary PC, but its just as important as the desktop, so maybe you could consider them both primarys? And the iPad can't replace the laptop either.

BaldiMac
Jul 12, 2012, 03:55 PM
And the iPad can't replace the laptop either.

And here's where I disagree with you. I think there is an extremely large number of enterprise employees who use laptops mainly to access data on the go and give presentations. Two things that an iPad can do very well. Of course, they do most of the heavy lifting on their primary desktop machine.

NewbieCanada
Jul 12, 2012, 03:59 PM
:confused: If you had two PCs, one is your primary PC and one is your secondary PC.

I love all my children the same.

G51989
Jul 12, 2012, 04:01 PM
And here's where I disagree with you. I think there is an extremely large number of enterprise employees who use laptops mainly to access data on the go and give presentations. Two things that an iPad can do very well. Of course, they do most of the heavy lifting on their primary desktop machine.

Depends, for me. An iPad would probably explode if I tried to run my software on it.

Well, your right in that an iPad can be super useful to access data and all that.

But, it lacks real multi tasking, and a keyboard. Which can be a huge issue for a HUGE number of users. Because nothing sucks more when your on the go, and need to respond to an email, or type up a decently long report, or put a presentation together on the go. Try doing that with the touch screen.

I think the Surface is trying to address the no keyboard/track pad thing.

And I think if it does good, we might see an ' ipad pro " that runs OSX with decent hardware specs, I'd be interested in that for the same reason I'd be interested in the surface.

FOr personal use that is. Tablets are years away from not melting with my software.

BaldiMac
Jul 12, 2012, 04:15 PM
I love all my children the same.

:D Sure, but if the opportunity ever came up, which child would you consider replacing with an iPad? :D

----------

Depends, for me. An iPad would probably explode if I tried to run my software on it.

And that would be important if we were only talking about you. :)

But, it lacks real multi tasking, and a keyboard. Which can be a huge issue for a HUGE number of users. Because nothing sucks more when your on the go, and need to respond to an email, or type up a decently long report, or put a presentation together on the go. Try doing that with the touch screen.

None of those things are hard to do on an iPad. And nothing is stopping you from using a keyboard with an iPad.

I think the Surface is trying to address the no keyboard/track pad thing.

I think the Surface is trying to address the cramming-the-full-version-of-windows-into-a-tablet-so-you-will-require-a-keyboard/trackpad-at-some-point thing.

And I think if it does good, we might see an ' ipad pro " that runs OSX with decent hardware specs, I'd be interested in that for the same reason I'd be interested in the surface.

I'm not sure what the difference between that and the future of the MacBook Air will be.

FOr personal use that is. Tablets are years away from not melting with my software.

But, again, we were talking about business users in general. Not you in particular.

esp211
Jul 12, 2012, 04:18 PM
Using that logic, cars should be counted as horses. :p

Car and horse are both vehicles.

----------

Depends, for me. An iPad would probably explode if I tried to run my software on it.

Well, your right in that an iPad can be super useful to access data and all that.

But, it lacks real multi tasking, and a keyboard. Which can be a huge issue for a HUGE number of users. Because nothing sucks more when your on the go, and need to respond to an email, or type up a decently long report, or put a presentation together on the go. Try doing that with the touch screen.

I think the Surface is trying to address the no keyboard/track pad thing.

And I think if it does good, we might see an ' ipad pro " that runs OSX with decent hardware specs, I'd be interested in that for the same reason I'd be interested in the surface.

FOr personal use that is. Tablets are years away from not melting with my software.

Again, just because it does not do what you want doesn't mean everyone else in the world feels the same way because that is clearly not the case. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and no one is forcing you to use an iPad. But the trend is that iPad, not tablet, adoption is growing while PC/Laptop are shrinking. The point you fail to see is that those two events are directly related.

NewbieCanada
Jul 12, 2012, 04:26 PM
:D Sure, but if the opportunity ever came up, which child would you consider replacing with an iPad? :D[COLOR="#808080"]


None of them. I just sold my 1st Generation iPad and am replacing it with a MacBook Air 11"

Mechanic
Jul 12, 2012, 06:00 PM
???? So Apple sold 1910 macs? Thats not a lot to shout about is it.

That is times 1000. So apple shipped 1 million nine hundred ten thousand macs. Or 1,910,000 Macs Whichever format you prefer.

G51989
Jul 12, 2012, 11:55 PM
:D Sure, but if the opportunity ever came up, which child would you consider replacing with an iPad? :D

----------



And that would be important if we were only talking about you. :)

I am the only person on the planet ya know :cool:

None of those things are hard to do on an iPad. And nothing is stopping you from using a keyboard with an iPad.

Writing a long report on a touch screen? Ugh. No thanks.

Yeah, there are keyboards. for the ipad, but I've yet to find a good one.

And lets be honest, without office, that can be an issue, Office is THE standard.

Another thing, multi tasking is a HUGE issue, sometimes you like to be able to look at something your writing an update/report on while your typing said report.

I think the Surface is trying to address the cramming-the-full-version-of-windows-into-a-tablet-so-you-will-require-a-keyboard/trackpad-at-some-point thing.

The surface is addressing a couple of things.

1: Built in keyboard, and that keyboard seems very good. I have not used it yet of course. But from what I've been reading, its a VERY good keyboard, which might make some iPad keyboard makers step it up ( I've heard this from Apple guys, and used a couple iPad keyboards, most of them are terrible )

2: That keyboard is built into the smart cover thingy or whatever its called, and the tablet itself easily detaches, I like that a lot.

3: Full OS/X86 in the pro. I think this is HUGE putting a " full OS " on this thing, with an X86 processor ( I think the ARM will be much more for consumers ). Why?

4: Having a full Windows OS with an X86 processor is huge, because that means it will run a vast majority of windows software, both first and third party right out of the box. And some business's that put millions of dollars into big Windows Systems and software packages, would love to be able to use that software on their new tablets.

5: Full OS isn't " crammed " its not like the tablet itself can't handle it. Its got VERY good hardware for what it is, thats an area the iPad really needs to work on, its performance is lacking.

I think the Surface is bringing something new to the table, and judging by my personal conversations, and hell e ven the surface thread on this website, its something TONS of people are interested in.

None of that is a Diss against the iPad, I do know its a great little device.

But I do think the surface is the first device to really blur the hole tablet vs laptop thing. On one hand, its like any other tablet. But on the other hand, you dock it back into its smart case, and boom, its like having a full on small laptop, because it has the hardware power and imput devices of one.

I'm not sure what the difference between that and the future of the MacBook Air will be.

The MacBook Air is an awesome little Laptop, I would love one if I had well, some sort of use for it.

However, the Macbook air is not as portable as an iPad or a surface, not can it transform into a tablet or stay as a " laptop " like a surface can.

I really do wonder if Apple will pull what Tablet PC's did in the early 00s, and have a touch screen top, with a detachable keyboard. That would be neat.

Macist
Jul 13, 2012, 02:07 AM
Apple's marketshare is in some sense much bigger in terms f significance than the raw numbers.

Many PCs from the likes of Lenovo and Dell are little more than 'dumb terminals' shovelled by the millions into offices. They do little more than run a database, which is increasingly likely to be done though a web-based interface.

By contrast, most Macs are sold to active consumer and professional users who buy software and accessories and other products. Thus, the 'Mac market' is a very lucrative one.

5-10 years ago it was exotic to see a Mac laptop on a train or in a cafe. Now here in the UK you'd think Apple has 80%+ of the market by that measure.

takezo808
Jul 13, 2012, 03:01 AM
My very first computer was a Mac Performa with a whoping 25Mhz CPU and 8MB of ram. I have fond and not so fond memories of that computer. It was very lousey with games, even Doom (yes, the original Doom) needed to be ran in a window the size of a stamp for smooth game play. But it opened the door for computing for me and my family.

Shortly after that Apple was struggling and PC was soaring with Windows 95 and 98 laying the road which the evil empire stands even to this day. This is when I shunned Apple. The very thought of Apple products made me scoff at it's pathetic existance and how blind it's users were. This was the old apple.

Everything changed in 2004. I was building a buget friendly gaming rig. Athlon 64 2.2Ghz, 1GB Ram, Geforce 6800GT. It was great for 6 months. Then it got old, and slow. I realised that PC graphics got too old to fast for me to keep up. The next PC i built was not gamer's rig.

I got my first ipod classic, this was the first apple prouct I owned since the performa. It rocked (litteraly and figuratively). My distane for apple fooled me into getting a Creative Labs Zen juke box, which I thought was good untill I got my ipod. When I look back I realised how crappy that Creative jukebox was. I upgraded to ipod tuch, which ultimately led to my iphone 4.

I have played with MAC OS as a VM on Virtual Box (google it) off and on. i really liked OS X and how it felt better than Windows. I eventualy got a mac mini.

The full circle has been completed. What's interesting is my setup is very erriely similar to the old performa. Computer + external CD-rom drive connected to a monitor.

Mac is gaining steam. It's slowly encroching on PC market share. When Windows 8 comes out it, MAC will see a very rapid expansion in sales and market share. Windows 8 is just that bad.

fertilized-egg
Jul 13, 2012, 03:16 AM
Of course it won't replace windows. I don't think Windows will get much smaller because its pretty much the industry standard. And Microsoft has done a great job of making OS's recently ( Not vista LOLZ ). Windows 8 already looks great, and Windows 8 Tablets+Surface really could come out into the mobile market, impossible to tell yet. ( Don't say Zune people. Thats one Failure. Apple's had plenty of failures as well ).

It's not just Zune. Microsoft's recent track record is just shaky. Windows Mobile quickly lost its lead against iOS and Android and was abandoned, Windows Phone 7 has been a big failure in comparison to the initial hype, Bing has been an endless money-sucking pit, the original tablet PC effort failed to pick up any sort of significant steam, Play for Sure and Zune were an obvious failure, and there was that unmitigated disaster in Kin.

Other than in their trenched Windows/Office/Enterprise fields and XBox (even this is debatable considering how many billions Microsoft had to spend on it), Microsoft hasn't fared all that well recently and that's why so many are calling Ballmer's head. Windows 8 might do great with tablets, but there is no longer aura of dominance in Microsoft when it comes to the new platforms. Plus the fact they are charge an exceptionally low price for initial Windows 8 upgrades should tell us something about their anxiety.

BaldiMac
Jul 13, 2012, 07:59 AM
Writing a long report on a touch screen? Ugh. No thanks.

Yeah, there are keyboards. for the ipad, but I've yet to find a good one.

1: Built in keyboard, and that keyboard seems very good. I have not used it yet of course. But from what I've been reading, its a VERY good keyboard, which might make some iPad keyboard makers step it up ( I've heard this from Apple guys, and used a couple iPad keyboards, most of them are terrible )

You are just being myopic. Any bluetooth keyboard works with an iPad. Including Apple's excellent bluetooth keyboard.

2: That keyboard is built into the smart cover thingy or whatever its called, and the tablet itself easily detaches, I like that a lot.

I'm sure the keyboard that no one has tried will be excellent. But it sure looks great in a demo!

3: Full OS/X86 in the pro. I think this is HUGE putting a " full OS " on this thing, with an X86 processor ( I think the ARM will be much more for consumers ). Why?

4: Having a full Windows OS with an X86 processor is huge, because that means it will run a vast majority of windows software, both first and third party right out of the box. And some business's that put millions of dollars into big Windows Systems and software packages, would love to be able to use that software on their new tablets.

5: Full OS isn't " crammed " its not like the tablet itself can't handle it. Its got VERY good hardware for what it is, thats an area the iPad really needs to work on, its performance is lacking.

Microsoft has been trying to put a desktop OS on a tablet for more than a decade. This isn't new. Very few people wanted that. The iPad outsold 10 years of Windows tablets in less than a week.

I think the Surface is bringing something new to the table, and judging by my personal conversations, and hell e ven the surface thread on this website, its something TONS of people are interested in.

Absolutely.

But I do think the surface is the first device to really blur the hole tablet vs laptop thing.

If you ignore the previous 10 years of Windows tablets.

The MacBook Air is an awesome little Laptop, I would love one if I had well, some sort of use for it.

However, the Macbook air is not as portable as an iPad or a surface, not can it transform into a tablet or stay as a " laptop " like a surface can.

I really do wonder if Apple will pull what Tablet PC's did in the early 00s, and have a touch screen top, with a detachable keyboard. That would be neat.

Sure, but I think the reason the iPad is popular is that it isn't trying to be a laptop. Meanwhile the Surface can convert into a laptop that you can't use in your lap!

Sackvillenb
Jul 13, 2012, 11:45 AM
This is a good thing.

Thunderhawks
Jul 13, 2012, 02:19 PM
We'll assume you meant 2004 Quicksilver DP.

Haha, thank you. I was actually too lazy to switch it on and look things up. It's the Graphite Tower from 1999.

Time flies

dgree03
Jul 13, 2012, 03:14 PM
Microsoft has been trying to put a desktop OS on a tablet for more than a decade. This isn't new. Very few people wanted that. The iPad outsold 10 years of Windows tablets in less than a week.


True. except that an iPad and a Windows Tablet(Past or Present) are for different use cases.

iPad has the sell of a tablet but the OS of a smartphone

MS Surface has the shell of a tablet but the OS of a desktop/laptop

I can do alot of things the same way on both(and sometimes perhaps easier on the iPad) but I have more options with MS Surface..

firewood
Jul 13, 2012, 03:37 PM
Yes, it can supplement a PC, even in the business world it can. But it cannot, as it stands right now. REPLACE said PC. A time may come when it can, but as of now. It cannot.

It doesn't have to replace all PCs to effectively replace them as the dominant product in the market.

I know of a couple IBM mainframes still in service around my city. Every other business uses PCs, x86 rack servers, or mobile devices. Those mainframes were not 100% replaced.

There are still a few rich little girls around the county who stable and ride horses. Everybody else switched to cars decades or centuries ago. Those pretty horsies were not 100% replaced.

Eidorian
Jul 13, 2012, 03:39 PM
I say this begrudgingly but I am going to replace my Macbook with another Mac"Book". Apple can at least count on that sale from me.

BaldiMac
Jul 13, 2012, 03:42 PM
True. except that an iPad and a Windows Tablet(Past or Present) are for different use cases.

I'm not sure why you said "except". I agree completely.

iPad has the sell of a tablet but the OS of a smartphone

MS Surface has the shell of a tablet but the OS of a desktop/laptop

I can do alot of things the same way on both(and sometimes perhaps easier on the iPad) but I have more options with MS Surface..

You say "OS of a smartphone", I say "OS of a tablet" or "OS of a mobile device" or "OS designed to be used primarily for multitouch input". Microsoft is still trying to put an OS designed for a desktop/laptop in a tablet.

I'm sure this iteration will sell better, especially in enterprise, because Microsoft has put much more effort into completing the touch interface. I'm just not sure what problem the surface solves that isn't better addressed by an ultrabook or it's successor.

(To me, a kickstand is an acknowledgement of a design compromise that was too big to ignore. :) )

Frobozz
Jul 13, 2012, 04:48 PM
Actually, this is good. It is getting people who normally downvote to post a comment instead of a passive-aggressive vote. This brings these people out and allows us to see who is offering civil discourse versus disrespectful banter, thus enables people to ignore those users. It also keeps those individuals who do have good points from being bullied by a select few who down vote their comment(s) even though their points may be beneficial to many.

Personally, I'd do away with all of it, but removing the negative voting is a breath of fresh air. So many times I see new members get reamed for an innocent question by MacRumors "police" with negative votes, and they don't return. They're new and don't have the thick skin yet, sure, but should they have to in the first place? :)

Good point! I'd just make blocking of users easier. My block list has about 10 or 15 members from over the years. Mostly trolls but a couple PC flamers still show up for banter that are on my block list. ;-)

G51989
Jul 14, 2012, 11:53 AM
You are just being myopic. Any bluetooth keyboard works with an iPad. Including Apple's excellent bluetooth keyboard.



I'm sure the keyboard that no one has tried will be excellent. But it sure looks great in a demo

I've used they keyboard, its not bad.

As far as anyone not using

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/18/hands-on-with-microsoft-surface-for-windows-rt/


Couple of others got some hands on time, they like it.

Microsoft has been trying to put a desktop OS on a tablet for more than a decade. This isn't new. Very few people wanted that. The iPad outsold 10 years of Windows tablets in less than a week.

Indeed they have been, but it was more or less a regular windows OS that you could use a Pen to Interact with, we had a ton of the damn things in my last year of college, it de generated into people drawing dicks and send them to each other via messenger. ;)

Microsofts early attempts were just well, a lack of anything good.

The surface with windows 8, well its different that one. Full desktop OS thats actually made for touch? Yesssss. The fact that you SHOULD be able to go down to the desktop UI if you want is super nice to.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Technology/Pix/pictures/2011/9/13/1315929439379/win8-desktop-460.jpg

I think having the keyboard and track pad ( mouse if you want ) with the desktop UI, and metro for touch might be a winning combination.

I think another reason the early tablet's didn't sell well was because they were intended for business. And just STUPID expensive. Battery life was pretty horrible, so were the screens. But that had to do with the fact that it was 10 years prior. Tech has come a LONG way since then.

Absolutely

Indeed, I DO like the iPad a lot. But its lack of fucntion is something that means I could never justify the cost of one, even though its not very much money. I think the Surface is the only thing that might put a dent in the iPad, because Android tablets are crap ;) I don't think anyone has competed with the iPad yet, because no one has really been trying hard enough.

If you ignore the previous 10 years of Windows tablets.

If I ignore SOME of those tablets, mine even had a convertible keyboard/swivel thingy. But when I mean " blur " I mean its very much like a windows tablet of old. But, it has the hardware power of an ultrabook ( almost ), its a HUGE step up from most other tablets in hardware power, which means it can run more serious software.


Sure, but I think the reason the iPad is popular is that it isn't trying to be a laptop. Meanwhile the Surface can convert into a laptop that you can't use in your lap!

The iPad started out being popular, because at that point, and still. Apple could wrap a dog turd in mold, call it the ' iMoldturd ' and it would sell by the millions ;) ( heavy sarcasm )

Yes, it is a popular device, and its a good one. But that doesn't change my opinion that there is a pretty big group of people out there screaming for something like the surface, no reason the two devices cannot co-exist.

I do think the Surface is the only tablet that has a chance of really taking on the iPad.

It's not trying to be anything per seeeeee. I love the idea of its little integrated cover and keyboard.

What the surface is, is a laptop you can use on the tablet, and use its full desktop OS in desktop mode with your keyboard/trackpad/mouse.

Don't feel like that? Whip the tablet out of its case, and sit on the couch.

I like it. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I think it could be a huge hit.

----------

It doesn't have to replace all PCs to effectively replace them as the dominant product in the market.

I know of a couple IBM mainframes still in service around my city. Every other business uses PCs, x86 rack servers, or mobile devices. Those mainframes were not 100% replaced.

There are still a few rich little girls around the county who stable and ride horses. Everybody else switched to cars decades or centuries ago. Those pretty horsies were not 100% replaced.

This might be true in 20 years, within the next 5? I doubt it.

----------

I'm not sure why you said "except". I agree completely.

As do I, I personally see the iPad as something you can use for light usage at work, and content consumption for most people. I think the Surface will be more for the so called ' power user '

You say "OS of a smartphone", I say "OS of a tablet" or "OS of a mobile device" or "OS designed to be used primarily for multitouch input".

I think he means " OS of a smartphone " because its the iPhone OS, blown up on a bigger screen. An iPad is much more capable machine than the phone, lets take advantage of that. And do this thing called multi tasking.

Microsoft is still trying to put an OS designed for a desktop/laptop in a tablet.


Thank god for that. And Windows 8's Metro UI is mostly desinged for tablets, and having used a Zune ( Metro ), Windows Phone 7 ( Metro ), and the windows 8 preview ( more metro ), I really like metro. Its the first innovative thing to come out of any company UI wise in a couple years.


I'm sure this iteration will sell better, especially in enterprise, because Microsoft has put much more effort into completing the touch interface. I'm just not sure what problem the surface solves that isn't better addressed by an ultrabook or it's successor.


I think it will, Microsoft is offering the Windows 8 upgrade to XP and 7 users ( vista lolz ) for 40 bucks so they can stuff as many people on to 8 as they can, then they can say things like " Integrate your computer, phone, xbox and tablet! " or whatever their add spoof will be.

Well, the surface pro nearly has the power of an ultra book, while being cheaper than a good number of them. And unlike the ultrabook, the screen comes off. Some people will want that.

(To me, a kickstand is an acknowledgement of a design compromise that was too big to ignore. )

Idk, I think the kickstand is a totally awesome idea, tons of other tablet cases already have em.

BaldiMac
Jul 14, 2012, 03:14 PM
I've used they keyboard, its not bad.

I'm not sure what keyboard you are referring to here.

As far as anyone not using

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/18/hands-on-with-microsoft-surface-for-windows-rt/


Couple of others got some hands on time, they like it.

That's not true. From the link you posted:

"Unfortunately, we didn't get to see a working demo of the keyboards."

Full desktop OS thats actually made for touch? Yesssss.

Except for the parts that aren't made for touch.

The iPad started out being popular, because at that point, and still. Apple could wrap a dog turd in mold, call it the ' iMoldturd ' and it would sell by the millions ;) ( heavy sarcasm )

You call it sarcasm, I call it a lack of critical thinking. :)

What the surface is, is a laptop you can use on the tablet, and use its full desktop OS in desktop mode with your keyboard/trackpad/mouse.

Don't feel like that? Whip the tablet out of its case, and sit on the couch.

Unless you want to use on of those apps that you need the "full OS" part for that isn't optimized for touch. Than you can't sit on the couch because the laptop configuration won't actually work on your lap.

I think the Surface will be more for the so called ' power user '

I think the "power user" will still prefer a laptop.

I think he means " OS of a smartphone " because its the iPhone OS, blown up on a bigger screen. An iPad is much more capable machine than the phone, lets take advantage of that. And do this thing called multi tasking.

I know what he meant. And he meant it as a derogatory classification. Much like you do. I think my terms much more accurately reflect the reality.

Thank god for that. And Windows 8's Metro UI is mostly desinged for tablets, and having used a Zune ( Metro ), Windows Phone 7 ( Metro ), and the windows 8 preview ( more metro ), I really like metro. Its the first innovative thing to come out of any company UI wise in a couple years.

So, iOS for iPad was a smartphone OS because it evolved from the iPhone OS. But Metro was designed for tablets even though it evolved from a smartphone UI via a game console UI. Do you see what you are doing here?

And the part that you are missing completely is that the iPad will have the most apps designed specifically for tablet use by a huge margin for the foreseeable future. It's not even going to be close for many years.

G51989
Jul 14, 2012, 04:04 PM
I'm not sure what keyboard you are referring to here.

I've used TONS of iPad keyboards, I was not referring to Microsoft Keyboard.

The main reason I have not bought an iPad, as much as I like them, is lack of hardware power/compatibility with anything I personally use.

That's not true. From the link you posted:

"Unfortunately, we didn't get to see a working demo of the keyboards."


Dohhhh, wrong link.

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/46153/surface-for-windows-rt-tablet-preview

These guys, DID get to hold and feel up the keyboard, it looks great.

Except for the parts that aren't made for touch.

Yes, and when your not using the keyboard, you can use the touch. No one is forcing you to use the keyboard at all times.

Does the iPad even offer anything not for touch or full programs? Oh yeah, it doesn't.

You call it sarcasm, I call it a lack of critical thinking.

I call it a joke with zero seriousness in it :P

Unless you want to use on of those apps that you need the "full OS" part for that isn't optimized for touch. Than you can't sit on the couch because the laptop configuration won't actually work on your lap.

Your missing the point, if your using something that IS optimized for touch, and most Metro apps will supposedly be optimized for touch, its REALLY easy to pull it off its little case/dock and use it as a tablet. And when you want to use your keyboard/track pad for your full OS, you put it on a flat surface and smash away.

I think the "power user" will still prefer a laptop.

Of course they will, but if a ' power user ' wants a tablet at all, I think they would perfer the Surface to an iPad, as a ' power user ' myself, if I was forced onto a tablet, I'd go surface for work, iPad for home.

Then again, a Surface can't run anything I need it to, neither can any apple product in existence ( lack of hardware power, even in the Mac Pros case ).

I know what he meant. And he meant it as a derogatory classification. Much like you do. I think my terms much more accurately reflect the reality.

I do not mean it in a derogatory meaning at all. iOS is a great " light " or mobile os. However, it CANNOT compete with Windows 8, or 7, or OSX on any level. Same way as android can't.

So, iOS for iPad was a smartphone OS because it evolved from the iPhone OS. But Metro was designed for tablets even though it evolved from a smartphone UI via a game console UI. Do you see what you are doing here?

The difference here is, under the hood. iOS is still a very limited " mobile OS " if some people want to call it. While Windows 8 is a full blown desktop OS.

And the part that you are missing completely is that the iPad will have the most apps designed specifically for tablet use by a huge margin for the foreseeable future. It's not even going to be close for many years.

While the Surface Pro will launch with far more " apps " than even exist on the Apple side.

Your are correct of course, there are far more iOS touch based apps in existence, and that is not likely to change, though if I'm TOTALLY honest. The majority of iOS Apps are things like Angry Birds, not totally useful stuff.

I'm not dissing the iPad in any way shape or form, its an awesome device, ansd if it was not such a limited device. I would own one.

BaldiMac
Jul 14, 2012, 07:04 PM
Dohhhh, wrong link.

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/46153/surface-for-windows-rt-tablet-preview

These guys, DID get to hold and feel up the keyboard, it looks great.

And, again, they didn't actually get to use it.

Does the iPad even offer anything not for touch or full programs? Oh yeah, it doesn't.

That's the point! The programs on an iPad are designed for an iPad! By not requiring developers update apps to be used on the Surface, Microsoft will have to accept that a lot of developers aren't going to update their apps.

Your missing the point, if your using something that IS optimized for touch, and most Metro apps will supposedly be optimized for touch, its REALLY easy to pull it off its little case/dock and use it as a tablet. And when you want to use your keyboard/track pad for your full OS, you put it on a flat surface and smash away.

I'm not missing the point at all. You are going to be limited to Metro apps while you're using it as a tablet. Only by allowing other apps, Microsoft is taking away the incentive to update legacy apps to Metro. We saw the same thing with previous Microsoft tablets.

Of course they will, but if a ' power user ' wants a tablet at all, I think they would perfer the Surface to an iPad, as a ' power user ' myself, if I was forced onto a tablet, I'd go surface for work, iPad for home.

So, you think a power user would want an underpowered laptop with a small display and a tablet without the best tablet optimized apps, rather than a full laptop and a better tablet. I'm still going to disagree

I do not mean it in a derogatory meaning at all. iOS is a great " light " or mobile os. However, it CANNOT compete with Windows 8, or 7, or OSX on any level. Same way as android can't.

Of course iOS and Android can compete on the most important level to this conversation... as a better mobile OS.

The difference here is, under the hood. iOS is still a very limited " mobile OS " if some people want to call it. While Windows 8 is a full blown desktop OS.

Yep. And yet you still don't seem to see how I would think that a mobile OS would be a better mobile OS than a desktop OS. Weird.

While the Surface Pro will launch with far more " apps " than even exist on the Apple side.

But far fewer when you are using it as a tablet.

Your are correct of course, there are far more iOS touch based apps in existence, and that is not likely to change, though if I'm TOTALLY honest. The majority of iOS Apps are things like Angry Birds, not totally useful stuff.

That's not being TOTALLY honest. That's just FUD. Trying to cloud the issue with vague, unrelated claims. I could say the exact same thing about Windows.

If you are being TOTALLY honest, you would realize that the iPad will have far more "totally useful stuff" than the Surface when you are trying to use it as a tablet.