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MacRumors
Jul 13, 2012, 12:42 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/13/apple-backpedals-puts-all-eligible-products-back-on-epeat-environmental-registry/)


Last week, Apple notified (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/07/apple-pulls-products-from-environmental-epeat-registry/) the Electronic Product Environmental Assessment Tool (EPEAT) that it was withdrawing its products from the EPEAT registry, and would no longer be submitting its products for evaluation. EPEAT measures the environmental impact of electronics and is used by many corporations and governmental organizations as a yardstick on enterprise purchases.

In one well-publicized instance, the city of San Francisco said it would no longer purchase Macs (http://gigaom.com/apple/city-of-sf-wont-buy-macs-without-epeat-certification/) without EPEAT certification.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/07/letterfrombob.png


In an unusual about-face, Senior Vice President of Hardware Engineering Bob Mansfield wrote an open letter reversing the decision (http://www.apple.com/environment/letter-to-customers/) to remove Apple products from the EPEAT registry.
We've recently heard from many loyal Apple customers who were disappointed to learn that we had removed our products from the EPEAT rating system. I recognize that this was a mistake. Starting today, all eligible Apple products are back on EPEAT.

It's important to know that our commitment to protecting the environment has never changed, and today it is as strong as ever. Apple makes the most environmentally responsible products in our industry.We've received word that Bob Mansfield is sending a copy of the letter, from his @Apple.com email address, to customers who had expressed concern over the EPEAT withdrawal.

A full list of Apple's EPEAT-rated products is available (http://ww2.epeat.net/PublicSearchResults.aspx?return=pm&epeatcountryid=1&manufacturer=32), and includes the latest releases of the MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro with Retina Display.

EPEAT CEO Robert Frisbee also wrote a letter (http://www.epeat.net/) confirming Apple and EPEAT's commitment to working together and hinting at future changes to the EPEAT judging process to work with Apple as it continues its cutting edge computer designs.
We look forward to Apple's strong and creative thoughts on ongoing standards development. The outcome must reward new directions for both design and sustainability, simultaneously supporting the environment and the market for all manufacturers' elegant and high-performance products.

An interesting question for EPEAT is how to reward innovations that are not yet envisioned with standards that are fixed at a point in time. Diverse goals, optional points awarded for innovations not yet described, and flexibility within specified parameters to make this happen are all on the table in EPEAT stakeholder discussions. And of course, timely standards development, as with newly created Imaging Equipment and Television standards, and the current refresh of the PC/Display standard, is critical as well.Slate's Farhad Manjoo called the entire EPEAT situation (http://twitter.com/#!/fmanjoo/status/223833515198910464) a "really strange unforced error."

Article Link: Apple Backpedals, Puts "All Eligible Products" Back on EPEAT Environmental Registry (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/13/apple-backpedals-puts-all-eligible-products-back-on-epeat-environmental-registry/)



gmanist1000
Jul 13, 2012, 12:43 PM
Companies make mistakes...

KSpider
Jul 13, 2012, 12:44 PM
Perhaps EPEAT agreed to possibly review their requirements.

DoNoHarm
Jul 13, 2012, 12:45 PM
I think Macrumors.com deserves a lot of credit here. You guys acted like true journalists and brought this issue to the public's attention and the world is a better place because of it. Thanks! :)

jarednt1
Jul 13, 2012, 12:45 PM
Apple realized they still had to pay the protection Money to EPEAT.

Thunderhawks
Jul 13, 2012, 12:45 PM
That ought to stop the riots in the San Francisco government agencies.

Party on dudes!

mrxak
Jul 13, 2012, 12:46 PM
It sounds like EPEAT needs to evolve, and Apple just kicked their ass to do so. Hopefully Apple never compromises on design to fit some external, outdated environmental standard. Perhaps soon EPEAT will change, and Apple will be the only ones complying with it, having written the standards themselves.

jontech
Jul 13, 2012, 12:47 PM
Is San Fran going to load up on Apple gear now?


or will they keep buying cheap Dell gear?

blackhand1001
Jul 13, 2012, 12:47 PM
Didn't that bob guy retire a few weeks ago?

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 12:47 PM
At least they have the guts the do that when they realize they underestimated the consequences. :cool:

foodog
Jul 13, 2012, 12:47 PM
I thought it was a strange decision to remove everything from the list

Diode
Jul 13, 2012, 12:47 PM
Perhaps EPEAT agreed to possibly review their requirements.

I'm thinking that was probably the case.

ReallyBigFeet
Jul 13, 2012, 12:48 PM
You know what Bob? MAJOR CREDIBILITY GAIN HERE!

I'm actually pretty well versed on EPEAT standards and, while it is true they need to be updated (they are about 18 months behind the industry curve right now), I was very disappointed to hear that Apple just yanked support rather than try to use their weight to change the standards to something that made more sense not just for Apple but for the rest of the industry.

Big thumbs up in my book here...everybody wins!

jontech
Jul 13, 2012, 12:48 PM
I'm thinking that was probably the case.

They need to review

beangibbs
Jul 13, 2012, 12:51 PM
I cannot stand waffling.
"Oh we made a decision. Oh, people are getting angry, let's change our decision."
Screw that. For better or for worse, make a choice and stick to it.
Finally, I hope Apple never lets these EPEAT standards dictate what they can or cannot do as far as product design.

summitRun
Jul 13, 2012, 12:51 PM
I would have had more respect for AAPL if they had held their ground...very strange move

GenesisST
Jul 13, 2012, 12:53 PM
Adding a year to the planned obsolescence period would help too! ;-)

Codyak
Jul 13, 2012, 12:53 PM
It includes the rMBP now? :confused:

NYR99
Jul 13, 2012, 12:53 PM
Wash, rinse, EPEAT.

Magrathea
Jul 13, 2012, 12:55 PM
All phones have problems ........ antenna gate ..... Probably better that Steve is not around, now they can eat humble pie and move on.

D 5
Jul 13, 2012, 12:55 PM
Apple pulls away and EPEAT realizes it better update their judging proccess;)

Peace
Jul 13, 2012, 12:55 PM
That ought to stop the riots in the San Francisco government agencies.

Party on dudes!

It sounds like EPEAT needs to evolve, and Apple just kicked their ass to do so. Hopefully Apple never compromises on design to fit some external, outdated environmental standard. Perhaps soon EPEAT will change, and Apple will be the only ones complying with it, having written the standards themselves.

I'm thinking that was probably the case.

They need to review


What really did it was the federal government GAO announcing they were not going to purchase any Macs.

cvaldes
Jul 13, 2012, 12:57 PM
Kudos to Bob for taking one for the team. Enjoy your retirement, Bob, you deserve it!

ugahairydawgs
Jul 13, 2012, 12:58 PM
Like a local business paying the mafia for protection....

hitekalex
Jul 13, 2012, 12:58 PM
Typical Apple..

a) Do something unilateral and drastic
b) Sit silent for a few days while watching backlash from upset customers and media
c) Offer half-hazard "I am not pissing on your head, it's just raining" explanation
d) Reverse (a)

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 12:58 PM
Perhaps EPEAT agreed to possibly review their requirements.

Hmmmm. If you read the article above...

EPEAT CEO Robert Frisbee also wrote a letter (http://www.epeat.net/) confirming Apple and EPEAT's commitment to working together and hinting at future changes to the EPEAT judging process to work with Apple as it continues its cutting edge computer designs.

The real question is: Would Apple have had better press if they would have tried that from the beginning without just pulling everything?

beamer8912
Jul 13, 2012, 12:59 PM
Bummer. I thought this might be the kick Apple needs to realize that putting proprietary hardware in their laptops is a big middle finger to its customers.

I guess they convinced EPEAT to revise their requirements.

tommy060289
Jul 13, 2012, 12:59 PM
It sounds like EPEAT needs to evolve, and Apple just kicked their ass to do so. Hopefully Apple never compromises on design to fit some external, outdated environmental standard. Perhaps soon EPEAT will change, and Apple will be the only ones complying with it, having written the standards themselves.

some people on this forum seriously need to pull their heads out of Apple's ass. It borders on delusional fanaticism! If your worshipping a company you've clearly got some serious issues and are incapable of appreciating apple's products for what they are! simply great products.

I have a lot of Apple stuff in my house and I buy them for one reason and one reason only. because they are genuinely the best products on the market. you shouldn't buy any product out of blind loyalty. Its up to apple to keep there kit at the top of the chain. If it starts falling and gets over taken I shan't be hanging around. I almost left once before after the travesty of the terribly flimsy plastic MacBooks that came out around 2006. The quality of the plastic was shoddy at best and I had two cases replaced (I didn't treat them rough by any standard). Apples after-care may have been second to none I expect build quality of a near £1000 laptop. These is premium priced kit, not a pile-em-high sell-em-cheap hp. I really was ready to buy one of the better built Sony's but luckily apple moved on and brought out the aluminium style MBP which are a million miles away in build quality and the best build I know of!

Good to see Apple back on the EPEAT. I'm surprised the MBPr is on there? I thought the glued in battery precluded it from getting approval? or has it just received a lower grade? Glueing in the battery is on face value a stupid idea. Though I don't know the product well enough to say if they've had to use glue to get it in there and prevent using other fixing plates (though I doubt it really had no other option that to glue it)

thejadedmonkey
Jul 13, 2012, 12:59 PM
What really did it was the federal government GAO announcing they were not going to purchase any Macs.

See that surprises me, as Apple tends to not have the greatest track record in the corporate sector, but they they do stuff like this. It comes off as very bipolar re:Apple in the enterprise.

bobr1952
Jul 13, 2012, 01:00 PM
Is San Fran going to load up on Apple gear now?


or will they keep buying cheap Dell gear?

I believe Apple agreed to install a water bottle filler port on every unit sold to SF. ;)

Krazy Bill
Jul 13, 2012, 01:01 PM
So how does Apple "undo" the changes they made to the rMBP to make it EPEAT happy?

Rend It
Jul 13, 2012, 01:01 PM
I cannot stand waffling....
Finally, I hope Apple never lets these EPEAT standards dictate what they can or cannot do as far as product design.

As was pointed out in the previous thread on this subject, Apple was directly involved in developing the current standards, and is presently helping EPEAT draft the new ones. They're not just some arbitrary government standards. Exercise your critical thinking skills.

It's great that Mr. Mansfield reversed course. It shows humility and wisdom on his part. I don't think the initial removal of products from EPEAT would have stopped the average consumer from buying their next Mac, but this reversal will encourage that purchase.

philbeeney
Jul 13, 2012, 01:02 PM
The real question is: Would Apple have had better press if they would have tried that from the beginning without just pulling everything?

Perhaps Apple have behind the scenes and got fed up with EPEAT buggering around. I guess this highlighted EPEATS reluctance to update their standards in line with the pace of modern technology.

iMikeT
Jul 13, 2012, 01:03 PM
I bet neo-cons and libertarians are happy, here's "the free market correcting itself".... after a whole lot of backlash. :rolleyes:

This only goes to show that regulations are needed in the so-called "free market" in the first place. Though, I do have to admit that regulatory bodies do need to do a much better job at keeping up with technology. Therefore, more funding (in the form of tax dollars) is needed for these departments instead of going towards the war machine or conservative witch hunts.


---


*Full disclosure, I make money on the side by trading stocks and I am currently holding a long position in AAPL.

Peace
Jul 13, 2012, 01:04 PM
So how does Apple "undo" the changes they made to the rMBP to make it EPEAT happy?

They don't . Instead of being "gold certified" they will probably be silver certified. This gives leeway to the government to purchase Macs.

jlgolson
Jul 13, 2012, 01:04 PM
I was very disappointed to hear that Apple just yanked support rather than try to use their weight to change the standards to something that made more sense not just for Apple but for the rest of the industry.It's possible that this was Apple using their weight to change the standards.

jessea
Jul 13, 2012, 01:05 PM
I think Macrumors.com deserves a lot of credit here. You guys acted like true journalists and brought this issue to the public's attention and the world is a better place because of it. Thanks! :)

I'm not trying to be cynical here, but how does this make the world a better place? Apple's submission of products to the EPEAT has no bearing whatsoever on the product's environmental impact, and Apple would be silly to design a product based on interpreted environmental compliance by a third-party agency's particular standards.

Apple should do exactly what they've been doing: build products while being environmentally conscious and responsible.

emwgradstudent
Jul 13, 2012, 01:05 PM
Perhaps EPEAT agreed to possibly review their requirements.

That is what I suspect also. I knew it would not be long before Apple returned its products the list, EPEAT announced it would update its requirements, or both!

Rogifan
Jul 13, 2012, 01:06 PM
How embarrassing. Interesting though that the reversal came from Mansfield who is leaving the company. Wonder then if he made the decision in the first place?

vincenz
Jul 13, 2012, 01:06 PM
I too see this as a power move by Apple to get EPEAT to revise their methods of review. And it worked.

WildCowboy
Jul 13, 2012, 01:06 PM
They don't . Instead of being "gold certified" they will probably be silver certified. This gives leeway to the government to purchase Macs.

The Retina MacBook Pro is currently gold certified.

isoft7
Jul 13, 2012, 01:06 PM
Companies make mistakes...

...but if it had been Samsung...

paradox00
Jul 13, 2012, 01:07 PM
Hmmmm. If you read the article above...



The real question is: Would Apple have had better press if they would have tried that from the beginning without just pulling everything?

What makes you think they didn't?

beangibbs
Jul 13, 2012, 01:09 PM
As was pointed out in the previous thread on this subject, Apple was directly involved in developing the current standards, and is presently helping EPEAT draft the new ones. They're not just some arbitrary government standards. Exercise your critical thinking skills.

It's great that Mr. Mansfield reversed course. It shows humility and wisdom on his part. I don't think the initial removal of products from EPEAT would have stopped the average consumer from buying their next Mac, but this reversal will encourage that purchase.

No one knows for a fact that Apple is helping write the new EPEAT standards. I don't want to jump to that conclusion. I would rather go with the information that we know, and that is that Apple withdrew because the EPEAT standards were outdated in the eyes of Apple.
If they help draft new rules, great.
As far as Mr. Mansfield's reversal-they should have held their course. Withdraw, and build machines that not only meet, but exceed all the standards. It's not a bad thing to be a stubborn ass sometimes and hold your ground.

Rogifan
Jul 13, 2012, 01:09 PM
I cannot stand waffling.
"Oh we made a decision. Oh, people are getting angry, let's change our decision."
Screw that. For better or for worse, make a choice and stick to it.
Finally, I hope Apple never lets these EPEAT standards dictate what they can or cannot do as far as product design.

Apple fumbled this one. If it's this easy for them to reverse course they obviously didn't think it through well enough in the first place. But to have a spokesperson publicly defend the decision only to reverse course a day or two later is amateur hour.

KPOM
Jul 13, 2012, 01:09 PM
I guess they underestimated the PR impact. Interestingly, the Retina MacBook Pro makes the list, so maybe it was much ado about nothing.

Peace
Jul 13, 2012, 01:09 PM
The Retina MacBook Pro is currently gold certified.

Really ? Wow. I thought this organization had that "easy to take apart " part that disqualified the rMBP.

Crosbie
Jul 13, 2012, 01:10 PM
Hmmmm. If you read the article above...

The real question is: Would Apple have had better press if they would have tried that from the beginning without just pulling everything?

I wonder whether Apple were doing this backstage, before EPEAT decided to post it on their news blog (http://www.epeat.net/2012/06/news/apple-leaves-epeat/) and make the whole thing public.

I bet there were a lot of angry phone calls back and forth. Looks like a big game of bluff and call.

uknowimright
Jul 13, 2012, 01:11 PM
maybe Apple agreed to release their method for servicing the rMBP so that now they are "common" tools

hayesk
Jul 13, 2012, 01:11 PM
I was very disappointed to hear that Apple just yanked support rather than try to use their weight to change the standards to something that made more sense not just for Apple but for the rest of the industry.
Maybe they tried and EPEAT wasn't listening.

benguild
Jul 13, 2012, 01:11 PM
My guess is this has something to do with the televisions, and that Apple pulled the certification early so that the TVs wouldn't be looked at negatively.

I doubt any of the TV manufacturers care that much about the environment since they're all trying to compete on price, which is really a shame since most people just dump their old TVs into landfills.

WildCowboy
Jul 13, 2012, 01:12 PM
Really ? Wow. I thought this organization had that "easy to dissemble " part that disqualified the rMBP.

Ya, I don't know what the story is, but here (http://ww2.epeat.net/ProductDisplay.aspx?return=pm&action=view&search=true&productid=8661&epeatcountryid=1) is the listing for one model of the rMBP.

(EPEAT site is currently getting hammered, so availability is intermittent.)

hayesk
Jul 13, 2012, 01:12 PM
...but if it had been Samsung...

Well, it wasn't Samsung. We can play what if all day long but until that actually happens, there's no point to be made.

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 01:13 PM
Good to see Apple back on the EPEAT. I'm surprised the MBPr is on there? I thought the glued in battery precluded it from getting approval? or has it just received a lower grade? Glueing in the battery is on face value a stupid idea. Though I don't know the product well enough to say if they've had to use glue to get it in there and prevent using other fixing plates (though I doubt it really had no other option that to glue it)

Wholeheartedly agree (even with the part I didn't cite :) ) and I, too, think they could have used break-away latches being gued only or glue that gives in when you try to lift the battery. There are tons of other solutions out there. In my eyes, it is just to a) force more people into AppleCare(+*) and to shorten the life cycle after the 3 years are over: You can't replace a broken battery, you gotta buy a new laptop or use pricy Apple repair.

*AppleCare+ is not available everywhere

PS/edit: The rMBP got 21 points over the Mac Mini with 18 - this is hyporitical. You can take the Mac Mini appart, replace HDD, RAM, etc. You are even encouraged to help yourself with the simple stuff. It is easy to access o the bottom.

jlgolson
Jul 13, 2012, 01:14 PM
Bummer. I thought this might be the kick Apple needs to realize that putting proprietary hardware in their laptops is a big middle finger to its customers.Given the increase in Apple's sales over the past few years, it's clear that the vast majority of customers don't care about the proprietary hardware.

On the contrary, they prefer the increased battery life and smaller hardware that proprietary hardware can deliver.

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 01:15 PM
What makes you think they didn't?

The anwer to the question asked is in the article?

PlaceofDis
Jul 13, 2012, 01:16 PM
I cannot stand waffling.
"Oh we made a decision. Oh, people are getting angry, let's change our decision."
Screw that. For better or for worse, make a choice and stick to it.
Finally, I hope Apple never lets these EPEAT standards dictate what they can or cannot do as far as product design.


we live in a world that is constantly changing. everything around us changes and so its much better for them to revisit the issue and change than stand tall because they made a choice. they realized it was either a mistake, or that EPEAT would change and adapt along with them. this is a good thing.

gdbleb
Jul 13, 2012, 01:17 PM
This whole scenario was very strange.
I can only surmise that there was a wiz-bang cat fight behind closed doors about "standards needing to evolve" before it all boiled over in public.

cvaldes
Jul 13, 2012, 01:18 PM
It's possible that this was Apple using their weight to change the standards.
And if they were doing so, then ultimately they acted in the best interests.

Here's a key quote from EPEAT CEO Frisbee:
"We look forward to Apple’s strong and creative thoughts on ongoing standards development."

That insinuates that Apple approached the Green Electronics Council to make certain changes to EPEAT. It is likely that Apple's suggestions proposed for more stringent criteria and would have disqualified many products from the competition.

Or heck, it could have been something like "let's use EPEAT on smartphones and tablets." What if other handset manufacturers had that dropped in their laps and they weren't ready for it? Would it be likely that they would protest to the Green Electronics Council?

If the Green Electronics Council balked at Apple's proposals, then Apple forced their hand by withdrawing. Losing one of the biggest consumer electronics companies on the planet (and one which helped drafted the original EPEAT) was probably too much for the Green Electronics Council to stomach.

We'll probably never know the full story, but my hunch is that Apple called the Green Electronics Council's bluff and the latter folded.

We can only see the heavily sanitized public statements, but Frisbee's comment pretty much says that Apple will have a more prominent voice at how EPEAT evolves.

Krazy Bill
Jul 13, 2012, 01:19 PM
The Retina MacBook Pro is currently gold certified.Well htf is this possible? You need a sledgehammer and crowbar to dismantle it. :confused:

JayLenochiniMac
Jul 13, 2012, 01:19 PM
The Retina MacBook Pro is currently gold certified.

Has EPEAT updated its requirements already?

wgnoyes
Jul 13, 2012, 01:19 PM
So we all trust now that San Francisco is going to back down, right? :rolleyes:

Krazy Bill
Jul 13, 2012, 01:22 PM
So we all trust now that San Francisco is going to back down, right? :rolleyes:Actually, SF will be taking credit for this change. :) That's all those pompous bastards need is more encouragement.

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 01:23 PM
Perhaps Apple have behind the scenes and got fed up with EPEAT buggering around. I guess this highlighted EPEATS reluctance to update their standards in line with the pace of modern technology.

Perhaps aliens told Tim to quit. It is all speculation. Point is: When the Feds decided that not meeting that purchaise standard through certification, Apple gave in right away. Apple tried to bully here instead of having an open discussion. As stated, it is the whole industry which wants the standards modernized. An open discussion would not have offended anyone. Who knows why they are behind? Maybe they don't get enough input? Maybe the pull from Apple was intended to weaken the voices of the ones who want to have an emphasis on environmental factors? If Apple would let them help to build their products even better - e.g. not glueing the battery into the case locking in touchpad and cables - maybe even the customers would profit. Maybe. :)

BriSpe
Jul 13, 2012, 01:23 PM
I would have had more respect for AAPL if they had held their ground...very strange move

I cannot stand waffling.
"Oh we made a decision. Oh, people are getting angry, let's change our decision."
Screw that. For better or for worse, make a choice and stick to it.
Finally, I hope Apple never lets these EPEAT standards dictate what they can or cannot do as far as product design.

This is the attitude of very stubborn people.
You know...it takes more courage to change your mind than to stick to your wrong thoughts.
Learn from that. This attitude won't bring you very far in your life.

Apple made the right decision. It shows us, that they don't behave like little children like some users here in the forum

blumpkin
Jul 13, 2012, 01:24 PM
I still don't care.

Daalseth
Jul 13, 2012, 01:24 PM
Very glad to see this.
Stay in and help to evolve the standards.
Much better than taking their ball and going home.
Of course
Now Greenpeace will scream but
They can bit my shiny metal @$$

samcraig
Jul 13, 2012, 01:24 PM
I love how people still want to put the blame on EPEAT here and/or insinuate that by reversing their decision Apple is sticking it to EPEAT or whatever.

To recap removing all MR emotions

1. EPEAT has standards set forth to get their rating
2. Apple had several products which qualified. Some new products did not.
3. EPEAT maintained their standards therefor some new Apple products did not get the rating
4. Apple withdrew ALL of their products from EPEAT
5. San Francisco stated that without the EPEAT rating, unfortunately - they couldn't purchase Apple equipment going forward.
6. Apple issues a press release which takes a swipe at EPEAT
7. Apple changes their mind due to SF and regular customers expressing their concerns

The facts seem pretty clear to me. This is a good thing for Apple, EPEAT, SF and all customers. It's not a victory or defeat for any party. Stop trying to make it into one.

Icaras
Jul 13, 2012, 01:27 PM
I cannot stand waffling.
"Oh we made a decision. Oh, people are getting angry, let's change our decision."
Screw that. For better or for worse, make a choice and stick to it.
Finally, I hope Apple never lets these EPEAT standards dictate what they can or cannot do as far as product design.

I feel exactly the same way. I was very impressed that Apple had stuck to their guns when they publicly explained why they left EPEAT, but I guess they caved in. Unfortunate. I certainly hope this decision does not stand in the way of Apple's design choices in the future.

a.gomez
Jul 13, 2012, 01:27 PM
Given the increase in Apple's sales over the past few years, it's clear that the vast majority of customers don't care about the proprietary hardware.

On the contrary, they prefer the increased battery life and smaller hardware that proprietary hardware can deliver.

Seeing how the vast majority of customers do not buy an Apple computer the assumption is incorrect (not sure how 12% is the vast majority)

You can assume That the vast majority of "Apple customers" do not care - But it is clear that "the majority" are not willing to pay the price for the proprietary hardware regardless of benefits.

tpr007
Jul 13, 2012, 01:29 PM
Companies make mistakes...

Yup. And this is a good response by Apple

sailmac
Jul 13, 2012, 01:30 PM
I'm not convinced Apple fumbled and backtracked. I'm more inclined to believe they considered their options, potential outcomes, and what events would trigger the next strategic move. People get paid to think in this fashion, and I believe Apple employs more than a few.

At this point I think all of the main parties have made their points and know how they plan to move forward. Another day in the world of 3rd-party relationships.

samcraig
Jul 13, 2012, 01:31 PM
I feel exactly the same way. I was very impressed that Apple had stuck to their guns when they publicly explained why they left EPEAT, but I guess they caved in. Unfortunate. I certainly hope this decision does not stand in the way of Apple's design choices in the future.

I think some people don't understand that a company does not HAVE to adhere to EPEAT standards. Apple - has many products which comply. Some that don't and some that aren't even available to be certified. EPEAT doesn't DICTATE what anyone does. They certify or don't certify. It's up to the manufacturer to make any considerations based on their goals.

And it's companies/government agencies who determine whether or not choose to make purchase decisions based on ratings - EPEAT or others.

It's a shame that some people still think EPEAT is "forcing" Apple to do anything. They aren't.

The Phazer
Jul 13, 2012, 01:34 PM
Good news. Pulling out was a stupid decision, that has been reversed.

I look forward to the head exploding and ass backwards logic of some of those who decided that because Apple was on one side EPEAT must somehow be evil.

blow45
Jul 13, 2012, 01:36 PM
typical apple..

A) do something unilateral and drastic
b) sit silent for a few days while watching backlash from upset customers and media
c) offer half-hazard "i am not pissing on your head, it's just raining" explanation
d) reverse (a)

qft.

theBB
Jul 13, 2012, 01:36 PM
PS/edit: The rMBP got 21 points over the Mac Mini with 18 - this is hyporitical. You can take the Mac Mini appart, replace HDD, RAM, etc. You are even encouraged to help yourself with the simple stuff. It is easy to access o the bottom.
If the standard is aiming to certify how easy it is to "recycle" a product, your ability to take it apart is a bit irrelevant. This may help people extend the useful product life, which I guess is good for the environment, but this is not necessarily the purview of this certificate. I also don't know how many people actually replace HDD, RAM etc. even if it is easy, so overall impact on the environment may be fairly low in the end.

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 01:37 PM
If the Green Electronics Council balked at Apple's proposals, then Apple forced their hand by withdrawing. Losing one of the biggest consumer electronics companies on the planet (and one which helped drafted the original EPEAT) was probably too much for the Green Electronics Council to stomach.

Or, it is the other way around: It's a standard. You don't have to meet it. If not, no one will shut down you company. You just don't get cerified. See, it pays to be certified - that's why Apple changed so quickly. I would actually like to see less compromise. I would like to see less glue, more possibilities of devices being repairable without breaking the banks a few years down the road. rMBP meeting "Gold" standard, above the Mac Mini? Repairability from ifixit: rMBP: 1/10, Mac Mini: 8/10. Now, tell me that has anything to do with innovation...

petsounds
Jul 13, 2012, 01:37 PM
I didn't see anything in the letter about Apple taking another look at its new glue-based MBP to re-evaluate its recyclability. Excuse me if I don't celebrate quite yet. I'm all for evolving standards, as long as Apple also evolves in the right direction. Rewriting the EPEAT standard to make the MBP suddenly get a gold star under EPEAT would not be the right direction. Hopefully everything is on the up and up here.

---
p.s. It's still really weird not having the downvote button. Everyone wants to turn the internet into fluffy cotton candy.

benwiggy
Jul 13, 2012, 01:40 PM
I cannot stand waffling.
"Oh we made a decision. Oh, people are getting angry, let's change our decision."
Screw that. For better or for worse, make a choice and stick to it.
Really? For worse? Even if events turn out worse because of your decision, you should stick to it?

It's a better virtue to be doggedly stubborn than check your bearings and adjust your course?

You've never changed your mind in the face of new evidence? Cause that would be "waffling"?

Bheleu
Jul 13, 2012, 01:41 PM
Good to see Apple back on the EPEAT. I'm surprised the MBPr is on there? I thought the glued in battery precluded it from getting approval? or has it just received a lower grade? Glueing in the battery is on face value a stupid idea. Though I don't know the product well enough to say if they've had to use glue to get it in there and prevent using other fixing plates (though I doubt it really had no other option that to glue it)

GLUE can be an all natural product, for hundreds of years people sold their broken down horses, cattle, etc. and the marrow from the bones was used for GLUE. Why this hatred over something typically shoved in a plastic bottle?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_glue

No clue if they use the environmentally friendly (shoot the horse) glue, or PVA.

hobo.hopkins
Jul 13, 2012, 01:42 PM
As others have said, I suspect that EPEAT agreed to look over their guidelines to see how they could be improved. It isn't like doing so wouldn't help both companies.

Macboy Pro
Jul 13, 2012, 01:43 PM
Apple pulls away and EPEAT realizes it better update their judging proccess;)

or... government agencies halted purchasing and Apple Realized it better re-think.

the8thark
Jul 13, 2012, 01:44 PM
I think Macrumors.com deserves a lot of credit here. You guys acted like true journalists and brought this issue to the public's attention and the world is a better place because of it. Thanks! :)

I have to agree here. This is the one of the first times I have seen an article here really worthy of praise. Well this and the last one. Bringing this issue to all of our attention.

Most people here know I am rather critical of the MacRumor articles. And rightly so, some of them are pure garbage. But this one and all the related ones are very well done. I am impressed.

Peace
Jul 13, 2012, 01:44 PM
Well htf is this possible? You need a sledgehammer and crowbar to dismantle it. :confused:

I may be wrong here but I just re-read the standards and it seems like the part about taking it apart has been reworded to fit Apples laptops so I think the organization kinda sorta caved in to Apple.

Plus they said they are adding televisions by the end of the year. I think that parts new also.

macidiot
Jul 13, 2012, 01:47 PM
I cannot stand waffling.
"Oh we made a decision. Oh, people are getting angry, let's change our decision."
Screw that. For better or for worse, make a choice and stick to it.
Finally, I hope Apple never lets these EPEAT standards dictate what they can or cannot do as far as product design.


I feel exactly the same way. I was very impressed that Apple had stuck to their guns when they publicly explained why they left EPEAT, but I guess they caved in. Unfortunate. I certainly hope this decision does not stand in the way of Apple's design choices in the future.

Wow, really?

Are you suggesting that Apple should have just stuck with the flawed antenna design of the iphone 4 because it was prettier? Or the several other instances where Apple made a mistake and provided refunds, credits, or free product in response to outcry from the public?

This is like sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "nah, nah, nah, I can't hear you." Only a fool or idiot refuses to admit they made the wrong decision when faced with obvious facts.

pubwvj
Jul 13, 2012, 01:49 PM
In other words, it worked. EPEAT is now willing to change to meet Apple's needs for design improvement. All of this was to force EPEAT to update the standards and it worked.

cvaldes
Jul 13, 2012, 01:49 PM
Or, it is the other way around: It's a standard. You don't have to meet it. If not, no one will shut down you company. You just don't get cerified. See, it pays to be certified - that's why Apple changed so quickly.
However, Apple took the unprecedented action of requesting that existing approved products be taken down.

They could have just ignored everything and let whatever certified products fall of the EPEAT list as they became obsolete.

The fact that they removed then reinstated their certified products indicates some sort of deliberate power play. Even more odd is Apple's use of Bob Mansfield, an outgoing EVP to make the statement because Bob typically does not speak for the company on a public relations level.

As a matter of fact, Apple probably knew from the beginning that it would end up like this and that they would need some sort of scapegoat. They could have left EPEAT last year or next year, it probably wouldn't have mattered. My guess is that they had this planned for a while, and the idea was probably Steve's. They just needed the right opportunity.

Unquestionably, this action smacks of a Steve Jobs power play.

macchiato2009
Jul 13, 2012, 01:50 PM
i love Bob Mansfield's marketing move

like "we still don't give a ***** about EPEAT but we'll do it so that people would believe that we care"

a.gomez
Jul 13, 2012, 01:50 PM
This is the attitude of very stubborn people.
You know...it takes more courage to change your mind than to stick to your wrong thoughts.
Learn from that. This attitude won't bring you very far in your life.

Apple made the right decision. It shows us, that they don't behave like little children like some users here in the forum

Well said.

Jbach67
Jul 13, 2012, 01:55 PM
It sounds like EPEAT needs to evolve, and Apple just kicked their ass to do so. Hopefully Apple never compromises on design to fit some external, outdated environmental standard. Perhaps soon EPEAT will change, and Apple will be the only ones complying with it, having written the standards themselves.

Apple was involved in putting the standards together along with others. And they have been compromising for years to improve the environmental footprint while maintaining a high level of function and form - which is one reason I switched to them. In general, Apple is doing a good job in terms of the biggest issue, energy use and CO2 and may be the most transparent company in terms of getting specs on total life cycle impacts - of which recycling is a very small part. iPads are hard to pull apart, but they use very little juice. But some of the innards like lithium batteries and some other metals should be recoverable, whether by the user or Apple itself, so I'm glad they'll still be taking a look at that. I'd also consider the additional goal of user available upgrades for at least some products, which is what causes an EPEAT problem for the retinal MBP. But you can still buy a qualifying alternative, if easy upgrades as well recycling are important to you.

By Apple's own admission, the attempt to move all products off of EPEAT because some no longer fit was a mistake. Staying in there will make it easier to find solutions and revised standards that will permit recycling while still moving to thin, impossible to upgrade MBPs.

SBlue1
Jul 13, 2012, 01:57 PM
Now that was quick!

tommy060289
Jul 13, 2012, 01:57 PM
GLUE can be an all natural product, for hundreds of years people sold their broken down horses, cattle, etc. and the marrow from the bones was used for GLUE. Why this hatred over something typically shoved in a plastic bottle?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_glue

No clue if they use the environmentally friendly (shoot the horse) glue, or PVA.

But isn't the issue more about a lack of recyclability due to difficulty in disassembly?

Marcus-k
Jul 13, 2012, 01:58 PM
GLUE can be an all natural product, for hundreds of years people sold their broken down horses, cattle, etc. and the marrow from the bones was used for GLUE. Why this hatred over something typically shoved in a plastic bottle?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_glue

No clue if they use the environmentally friendly (shoot the horse) glue, or PVA.

It's not the fact that the glue is used but more that the batteries can't be removed for recycling due to the glue that makes it weird that it still got gold certified.

Rogifan
Jul 13, 2012, 01:58 PM
Or, it is the other way around: It's a standard. You don't have to meet it. If not, no one will shut down you company. You just don't get cerified. See, it pays to be certified - that's why Apple changed so quickly. I would actually like to see less compromise. I would like to see less glue, more possibilities of devices being repairable without breaking the banks a few years down the road. rMBP meeting "Gold" standard, above the Mac Mini? Repairability from ifixit: rMBP: 1/10, Mac Mini: 8/10. Now, tell me that has anything to do with innovation...

Who decided iFixit is the authority on such things? And how many average joes need to be able to take apart their laptops and tinker with them. How many as compared to those who want thinner and lighter designs? Apple's customer base is not iFixit or hobbyist geeks.

Icaras
Jul 13, 2012, 01:59 PM
Wow, really?

Are you suggesting that Apple should have just stuck with the flawed antenna design of the iphone 4 because it was prettier? Or the several other instances where Apple made a mistake and provided refunds, credits, or free product in response to outcry from the public?

This is like sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "nah, nah, nah, I can't hear you." Only a fool or idiot refuses to admit they made the wrong decision when faced with obvious facts.

4S did away with that antenna issue and still looks "pretty", so that defeats your iPhone analogy. Apple isn't a fool because they haven't made any right or wrong decision. It was a choice, a choice that was skewered thanks to the pressure of the press and the San Francisco's government's silly requirements. This is not an FCC regulation. It's simply an environmental certification which is totally optional and not obligatory.

I supported them not to side with EPEAT because I appreciate the direction that they are headed with their design team. And if they already qualify for Energy Star 5.0, then by all means, sidestep EPEAT and make the best looking and most functional products they can in the future.

Rogifan
Jul 13, 2012, 02:00 PM
It's not the fact that the glue is used but more that the batteries can't be removed for recycling due to the glue that makes it weird that it still got gold certified.

So how do we know for sure the batteries can't be removed for recycling then? Or are people suggesting iFixit is more reliable than EPEAT when it comes to determining the recyclability of a product? :confused:

iBug2
Jul 13, 2012, 02:01 PM
But isn't the issue more about a lack of recyclability due to difficulty in disassembly?

Why should it be? It may be slightly more difficult to disassembly but easy to recycle.

ThunderSkunk
Jul 13, 2012, 02:01 PM
I cannot stand waffling.
"Oh we made a decision. Oh, people are getting angry, let's change our decision."
Screw that. For better or for worse, make a choice and stick to it.

I see a bright future for you in politics.

...because nowhere else can you get away with sticking to bad decisions for the sake of sticking to them.

aced411
Jul 13, 2012, 02:02 PM
I would have had more respect for AAPL if they had held their ground...very strange move

I can't recall ever seeing blatant back Pedaling like this when Jobs was around. It shows a lack of direction/confidence even if it was the right thing to do. Interesting....

Kabeyun
Jul 13, 2012, 02:02 PM
Typical Apple..

a) Do something unilateral and drastic
b) Sit silent for a few days while watching backlash from upset customers and media
c) Offer half-hazard "I am not pissing on your head, it's just raining" explanation
d) Reverse (a)

+1 in general

As is so often the case, Apple does something without a public explanation and then has to deal with the PR debacle that follows.

Where I disagree is that this decision seemed to make sense. Apple's lifeblood is now in mobile devices, which are exempt from EPEAT, and laptops, which can't really be disassembled as EPEAT requires.

samcraig
Jul 13, 2012, 02:02 PM
It was a choice, a choice that was skewered thanks to the pressure of the press and the San Francisco's government's silly requirements. This is not an FCC regulation. It's simply an environmental certification which is totally optional and not obligatory.

Pressure from the press?

They reported that Apple withdrew their products. Look - Apple didn't need to withdraw all of their toys from the sandbox. Apple chose to do that. Many were still EPEAT compliant.

And yes - you finally get it - it's totally optional and not obligatory. Which means that Apple can do whatever it wants. And right now - they believe it's better to be certified than not.

johncrab
Jul 13, 2012, 02:03 PM
Too bad they gave in to this specsmanship scam.

Glideslope
Jul 13, 2012, 02:03 PM
Apple realized they still had to pay the protection Money to EPEAT.

Yup. Now Tim can relax at the summit. ;)

Rend It
Jul 13, 2012, 02:03 PM
No one knows for a fact that Apple is helping write the new EPEAT standards. I don't want to jump to that conclusion. I would rather go with the information that we know, and that is that Apple withdrew because the EPEAT standards were outdated in the eyes of Apple.
If they help draft new rules, great.

No one knows for a fact?

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/07/11/apple-working-to-refresh-the-green-pc-standards-


As far as Mr. Mansfield's reversal-they should have held their course. Withdraw, and build machines that not only meet, but exceed all the standards. It's not a bad thing to be a stubborn ass sometimes and hold your ground.

Why would Apple remove any products if they meet and exceed "all" standards, as you put it? And in what universe is your judgment of what Apple should do better than Mr. Mansfield's?

dagamer34
Jul 13, 2012, 02:05 PM
No one knows for a fact that Apple is helping write the new EPEAT standards. I don't want to jump to that conclusion. I would rather go with the information that we know, and that is that Apple withdrew because the EPEAT standards were outdated in the eyes of Apple.
If they help draft new rules, great.
As far as Mr. Mansfield's reversal-they should have held their course. Withdraw, and build machines that not only meet, but exceed all the standards. It's not a bad thing to be a stubborn ass sometimes and hold your ground.

It's not a standard if you make it up yourself.

UnSainted
Jul 13, 2012, 02:06 PM
I wonder if Al Gore being on the board had any bearing on this?

Icaras
Jul 13, 2012, 02:06 PM
Pressure from the press?

They reported that Apple withdrew their products. Look - Apple didn't need to withdraw all of their toys from the sandbox. Apple chose to do that. Many were still EPEAT compliant.

And yes - you finally get it - it's totally optional and not obligatory. Which means that Apple can do whatever it wants. And right now - they believe it's better to be certified than not.

You're the one calling Apple a fool. So if Apple didn't reverse their decision today, how does that make Apple a fool? Because in your eyes, you've already assumed it was the wrong decision, right?

Bheleu
Jul 13, 2012, 02:08 PM
So how do we know for sure the batteries can't be removed for recycling then? Or are people suggesting iFixit is more reliable than EPEAT when it comes to determining the recyclability of a product? :confused:

If they are using Hide Glue, it could come loose relatively easily for repair / replacement. If they are using PVA, heat and steam is required. Who knows what was used? The fact is you can carry it to Apple for repair, and I doubt they have too much trouble replaceing the battery (provided most techs go to the back room with it, so you do not see them whack it with a hammer or give it a steam bath).

From wiki:
"Hide glue sticks to itself, so the repairer can apply new hide glue to the joint and reclamp it. In contrast, PVA glues do not adhere to themselves once they are cured, so a successful repair requires removal of the old glue first – which usually requires removing some of the material being glued.

Hide glue creates a somewhat brittle joint, so a strong shock will often cause a very clean break along the joint. In contrast, a joint glued with PVA will usually break the surrounding material, creating an irregular, difficult to repair break. This brittleness is taken advantage of by instrument makers. For example, instruments in the violin family require periodic disassembly for repairs and maintenance. The top of a violin is easily removed by prying a palette knife between the top and ribs, and running it all around the joint. The brittleness allows the top to be removed, often without significant damage to the wood. Regluing the top only requires applying new hot hide glue to the joint. If the violin top were glued on with PVA glue, removing the top would require heat and steam to disassemble the joint (causing damage to the varnish), then wood would have to be removed from the joint to ensure no cured PVA glue was remaining before regluing the top."

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 02:08 PM
If the standard is aiming to certify how easy it is to "recycle" a product, your ability to take it apart is a bit irrelevant. This may help people extend the useful product life, which I guess is good for the environment, but this is not necessarily the purview of this certificate. I also don't know how many people actually replace HDD, RAM etc. even if it is easy, so overall impact on the environment may be fairly low in the end.

But it isn't. It is also warranting a life cycle from up to 5 years with easy-to-do repairs. It goes kinda hand-in-hand though. rMBP clearly stretches that definition. It is not about that Apple wouldn't replace or repair, it is about that material is hard to take appart. If you want to see why, look at the teardown.

AppleInLVX
Jul 13, 2012, 02:09 PM
Actually quite interesting. It isn't often Apple needs to backtrack, so it's intriguing to note the circumstances under which it happens. Apple's always been the sort to do what it thinks is best and damn the torpedoes. I've seen them drop ideas that didn't work (ping being the most recent) but they seldom back down. I suppose this goes to show that if enough people say "well, we're not buying stuff" it's good enough. Power of the buck resides squarely at the intersection of liberal arts and technology. :rolleyes:

I wonder if SF told them that unless they made the batteries replaceable they wouldn't buy them anymore if we'd see the return of the battery pack. :D

ixodes
Jul 13, 2012, 02:11 PM
Oh my, the almighty Apple eats crow. Takes big hits in the press and caves...

kazmac
Jul 13, 2012, 02:11 PM
Well, I can certainly sympathize: for all times I almost bought a mac and returned it in the last year. I know this isn't the same thing but I got a little chuckle out of the headline.

I'm glad Apple is going to work on the EPEAT issue, I wonder if this means they might hold off on ditching the user-upgradable macs for just a little bit longer?

samcraig
Jul 13, 2012, 02:12 PM
You're the one calling Apple a fool. So if Apple didn't reverse their decision today, how does that make Apple a fool? Because in your eyes, you've already assumed it was the wrong decision, right?

I didn't call Apple a fool. Where did I do that. I just said they took their toys home. It's an accurate statement.

It's not a right or wrong decision for me. I don't care if they are EPEAT certified or not because I don't base my purchases on that standard.

Apple, being a corporate entity, examined the pros and cons of their decision and changed their mind. I didn't use the word backpeddle. I didn't say they blew it. The simply decided that the best move for them was to remain in the program.

Stop applying emotions to my post that aren't there. If you're heated about the situation - which it sounds like you are - don't project that onto me. That's your issue.

ixodes
Jul 13, 2012, 02:13 PM
I wonder if this means they might hold off on ditching the user-upgradable macs for just a little bit longer?

I'd sure like to think they will, but given the profit and how easily everyone accepted being moved up-market with the more expensive MBPr, I doubt Apple will use a reasonable approach.

nagromme
Jul 13, 2012, 02:14 PM
It never made sense to pull the eligible products. Even if the standards don’t get updated, there will be some eligible Apple products for a long time to come I would think.

And Apple could let some “legacy” models hang around just for government use. The same way the glass-front eMac hung around even after the iMac surpassed it in most ways: schools seemingly didn’t want soft LCDs. Ditto for various low-end Macs that have sometimes been kept just for education.

ixodes
Jul 13, 2012, 02:17 PM
I wonder if Al Gore being on the board had any bearing on this?
With his massive carbon footprint, and that obscenely dirty jet, he's too busy living large and looking down on the commoners. He's a perfect match for Apple as he practices hypocrisy with the same level of skill and cunning.

noisycats
Jul 13, 2012, 02:20 PM
Apple pulls away and EPEAT realizes it better update their judging proccess;)

Exactly. So many bemoan that Apple is 'waffling' or succumbing to pressure or is otherwise without principle. Then others blame it for not using its power or influence to change the system. Guess what folks? It was all part of the plan and strategy from the start. Apple did use its market position. Hell, it even risked its market position to get EPEAT to "modernize".

Which raises another gripe. So many here were blaming Apple's design philosophy and direction. "Too thin" "Hates the planet" "Willing to sacrifice puppies on the alter of innovation" "The rMBP is blame" "The Air is to blame" "It's because you can't upgrade em" "Its the glue!!!" Ad nauseum.

All the screamers were wrong. Apple pulled its products because it could, and it was the best card it could play.

People just love to hate Apple.

Icaras
Jul 13, 2012, 02:21 PM
I didn't call Apple a fool. Where did I do that. I just said they took their toys home. It's an accurate statement.

Apologies. I misquoted you. That reply was meant for MacIdiot, who had labeled Apple as a fool.

IIt's not a right or wrong decision for me. I don't care if they are EPEAT certified or not because I don't base my purchases on that standard.

Apple, being a corporate entity, examined the pros and cons of their decision and changed their mind. I didn't use the word backpeddle. I didn't say they blew it. The simply decided that the best move for them was to remain in the program.

Stop applying emotions to my post that aren't there. If you're heated about the situation - which it sounds like you are - don't project that onto me. That's your issue.

Emotions? I pretty much agree to everything you just said, which is Apple can do whatever it wants. What emotions were directed at you? :confused:

And the fact is, they made a conscious decision to withdraw themselves from EPEAT, not the other way around.

Btw, I get that some products that are still eligible and are back on EPEAT. I'm speaking about future products.

baruch
Jul 13, 2012, 02:22 PM
Wow...Apple listened. Now I wish they'd listen on a few other issues like...finding ways to lower the toxicity if their products both during manufacturing and in use, bringing jobs back to the US, and please stop this direction of making the Mac OS more like the iPad or iPhone.

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 02:27 PM
Who decided iFixit is the authority on such things? And how many average joes need to be able to take apart their laptops and tinker with them. How many as compared to those who want thinner and lighter designs? Apple's customer base is not iFixit or hobbyist geeks.

Define authority: Authority (from the Latin auctoritas) is a right conferred by recognized social position (Wikipedia).

MacRumors and many other see iFixit as the authority on the internet for teardowns. They are a renown company for that, not just hobbyists and geeks. Not glueing the batty a way you cannot replace it does not make the rMBP thicker at all on that note. So, what are you actually stating? It's okay to be wasteful as long as you have some estatic benefit? If that would be true, no one would buy hybrid cars. They are usually more expensive - especially if you don't drive a lot. Sure, driving a lot, you will save on your gasoline bill...

GREEN4U
Jul 13, 2012, 02:31 PM
How come they don't listen to outcries for a smaller bezel.

luqtotheman
Jul 13, 2012, 02:33 PM
Apple can't forget it roots

San Francisco, bay area, palo alto all places where people are loyal to apple and are pretty progressive towards issue like the environment.

xxundrclssherox
Jul 13, 2012, 02:35 PM
I would have had more respect for AAPL if they had held their ground...very strange move

Holding their ground means losing major customers, like state/federal government and most corporate companies like Ford, etc since they have to have 95% EPEAT certified products. Holding their ground means losing money, which is foolish and not something stakeholders would like. This would be a lose-lose situation if Apple would've held their ground. You have to think of this from a green and business perspective.
Mac's are not cheap, giving a customer another reason not to buy it would be a shame, since the products are of high quality and part of the top products in the industry. I'm sure Apple will just make a tool for the Retina Macbook Pro to more easily separate the battery from the top case to better recycle the materials (if they haven't already done so). Apple backpedaled because business-wise and environmentally they don't want to lose that many customers.

mono1980
Jul 13, 2012, 02:36 PM
I cannot stand waffling.
"Oh we made a decision. Oh, people are getting angry, let's change our decision."
Screw that. For better or for worse, make a choice and stick to it.
Finally, I hope Apple never lets these EPEAT standards dictate what they can or cannot do as far as product design.

Sorry, but having the humility to admit that you made a mistake is a good thing.

b0fh
Jul 13, 2012, 02:39 PM
I would have had more respect for AAPL if they had held their ground...very strange move

Why fight when you have won?

1) EPEAT has now publicly stated that their standards are outdated and they will work with Apple to revise it
2) *ALL* current Apple products that qualify for EPEAT are on the EPEAT list.

What else are they fighting for?

samcraig
Jul 13, 2012, 02:40 PM
Why fight when you have won?

1) EPEAT has now publicly stated that their standards are outdated and they will work with Apple to revise it
2) *ALL* current Apple products that qualify for EPEAT are on the EPEAT list.

What else are they fighting for?

There's no fight. And there's no winning or losing.

Patriot24
Jul 13, 2012, 02:42 PM
It is a good thing, because most general consumers were about to stop buying Apple computers because of the lack of EPEAT certification. :rolleyes:

9.5/10 people probably have no idea what EPEAT even is.

hindmost
Jul 13, 2012, 02:45 PM
Companies make mistakes...

Yes, but only great companies admit to mistakes. And only the greatest companies rectify those mistakes. We can only hope Bob's successor has learned at his Master's knee and continues Bob's policies.

MacSince1990
Jul 13, 2012, 02:52 PM
Yeah, you know what, I'm sorry, but Apple has had four color schemes during its lifetime; Rainbow, Gray-Glass, Black and White. None of these has, or ever will, include Green.

beamer8912
Jul 13, 2012, 02:52 PM
Given the increase in Apple's sales over the past few years, it's clear that the vast majority of customers don't care about the proprietary hardware.

On the contrary, they prefer the increased battery life and smaller hardware that proprietary hardware can deliver.

Given the Mac vs PC the vast majority don't buy Apple.

It can easily be seen that some Apple customers will be put off by the switch to completely proprietary hardware that is way over-priced.

koolmagicguy
Jul 13, 2012, 02:55 PM
I love how they made Bob apologize for Tim Cook's mistake.

----------

All phones have problems ........ antenna gate ..... Probably better that Steve is not around, now they can eat humble pie and move on.

Is your comment even relevant??

ranReloaded
Jul 13, 2012, 02:58 PM
The funny thing is, nobody really cares how green is Dell, Acer or HP.

rmwebs
Jul 13, 2012, 03:01 PM
It's possible that this was Apple using their weight to change the standards.

It's also possible that Apple cocked up. No company is perfect.

tbrinkma
Jul 13, 2012, 03:04 PM
Why fight when you have won?

1) EPEAT has now publicly stated that their standards are outdated and they will work with Apple to revise it
2) *ALL* current Apple products that qualify for EPEAT are on the EPEAT list.

What else are they fighting for?

Well, the EPEAT standards group has been working on updating the standard since 2011, and it is 'expected' to be finalized later this year, or nearly next year.

If this was *any* sort of power play on the part of Apple, I suspect it had to do with clearing a 'logjam' in the update process, by basically pointing out that if the standard wasn't updated, it *could* quickly become pointless, as new design capabilities meant following the current standard would become *much* more expensive than simply going without the certification.

The battery in the rMBP can be replaced with as little danger as the battery in any laptop. It involves a few screws, and the top-case, where most others don't, but that's *hardly* enough to put it in the 'OMG! Impossible!' range like iFixit claims. Likewise with any other part. Some involve replacing other components at the same time because they're part of the same package, but that's no different than being 'unable to replace the ethernet adapter' because it's built into the motherboard.

kas23
Jul 13, 2012, 03:04 PM
Or, it is the other way around: It's a standard. You don't have to meet it. If not, no one will shut down you company. You just don't get cerified. See, it pays to be certified - that's why Apple changed so quickly. I would actually like to see less compromise. I would like to see less glue, more possibilities of devices being repairable without breaking the banks a few years down the road. rMBP meeting "Gold" standard, above the Mac Mini? Repairability from ifixit: rMBP: 1/10, Mac Mini: 8/10. Now, tell me that has anything to do with innovation...

Agreed. People should stop being so wasteful and learn just the basics of how to repair or upgrade their Macs.

Drunken Master
Jul 13, 2012, 03:08 PM
It is a good thing, because most general consumers were about to stop buying Apple computers because of the lack of EPEAT certification. :rolleyes:

9.5/10 people probably have no idea what EPEAT even is.

So?

Most people think the EPA is akin to the Gestapo and can't tell you what was in the Kyoto Protocol. Most people still throw plastic bags in the garbage and eat at restaurants that use styrofoam. Most people still drive gas guzzlers and don't care.

Most people are ignorant fools, it's up to the few to help the many.

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 03:10 PM
It is a good thing, because most general consumers were about to stop buying Apple computers because of the lack of EPEAT certification. :rolleyes:

9.5/10 people probably have no idea what EPEAT even is.

Question is: How many products are bought by "people" and how many by "institutions" like universities, state departments, federal agencies, etc? If you receive federal or state funding for something (like universities do), you usually have to comply to their standards as well and that means 95% EPEAT cert. If universities don't have Macs, students are less likely to adopt them as well because if you as non-IT student have to do your CIS 101(or whatever their computer class is called), you want to not have to learn somthing on a machine irrelevant to you. So, the implications are bigger than you think if you are convinced that EPEAT does not have a significant impact.

samcraig
Jul 13, 2012, 03:10 PM
The funny thing is, nobody really cares how green is Dell, Acer or HP.

I'm sure people do. As much as they do Apple. I'm also sure if one of those companies pulled all of their products out of a certification (whether it was energy, security, etc) and the press reported it - that people would care and talk about it too.

The real sad thing - is that most people don't care UNTIL there's a new story giving them a short reason to. A few days later - it's back to apathy.

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 03:14 PM
Agreed. People should stop being so wasteful and learn just the basics of how to repair or upgrade their Macs.

Wasteful is one thing. If I buy a Mac, I simply cannot afford to replace it every time it breaks. I might buy a used one. Maybe 2 years old - just because I like MacOS ad the design. I simply cannot just throw it out if it breaks after one year - at least I don't want to. I would like to be able to repair it with "commonly accessable tools" - and pentalobe would not keep me from doing that. Glue with the risk of toxic flames on the other hand would.

Aodhan
Jul 13, 2012, 03:17 PM
It's another win for the Green Mafia. That said, knowing the current climate, and being a Bay Area company, what was Apple thinking pulling out in the first place? It's a bad business decision, because of course the Green Mafia would kick into action. If Apple can defy them, anyone can. Apple had no choice but to fall back in line. Even if all their products cannot qualify, they need to keep whatever they can in. That's just good business.

FoxyKaye
Jul 13, 2012, 03:18 PM
<Church Lady>Well, isn't that SPE-CIAL?</Church Lady>

I can appreciate Apple feeling like it doesn't want its hands tied around innovation, but on the other hand, they've been marketing pretty hard on the Green tip for a while now. So pulling out of EPEAT did seem a little dis-congruous with their overall message. Not that companies haven't engaged in that sort of thing since the dawn of time. But good on them for doing an about-face.

Though, I wonder if this just made Macs cost more or less over time?

Alameda
Jul 13, 2012, 03:24 PM
9.5/10 people probably have no idea what EPEAT even is.That was true last week, but not anymore.

ericmooreart
Jul 13, 2012, 03:32 PM
OK lets see how long it takes the fans boys who where all for Apple opting out to suddenly praise Apple for changing its mind.

So predictable

cube
Jul 13, 2012, 03:32 PM
That you can return a product to the manufacturer for recycling is not enough.

Icaras
Jul 13, 2012, 03:32 PM
Sorry, but having the humility to admit that you made a mistake is a good thing.

Who said it was a mistake?

Why fight when you have won?

1) EPEAT has now publicly stated that their standards are outdated and they will work with Apple to revise it
2) *ALL* current Apple products that qualify for EPEAT are on the EPEAT list.

What else are they fighting for?

Now you can correct me if I'm mistaken but isn't the new retina Macbook Pro not EPEAT certified?

Edit: Nevermind, just saw on Apple's site. It is.

guerro
Jul 13, 2012, 03:33 PM
Yay. The Greentards win again. :rolleyes:

Rogifan
Jul 13, 2012, 03:36 PM
Define authority: Authority (from the Latin auctoritas) is a right conferred by recognized social position (Wikipedia).

MacRumors and many other see iFixit as the authority on the internet for teardowns. They are a renown company for that, not just hobbyists and geeks. Not glueing the batty a way you cannot replace it does not make the rMBP thicker at all on that note. So, what are you actually stating? It's okay to be wasteful as long as you have some estatic benefit? If that would be true, no one would buy hybrid cars. They are usually more expensive - especially if you don't drive a lot. Sure, driving a lot, you will save on your gasoline bill...
Who says Apple is being wasteful? iFixit has their own agenda. They're not a neutral party completely unbiased. Oh and btw, most people aren't buying hybrid cars. But I think the planet will survive just fine. ;)

----------

Given the Mac vs PC the vast majority don't buy Apple.

It can easily be seen that some Apple customers will be put off by the switch to completely proprietary hardware that is way over-priced.
Way overpriced? Based on what?

MacinDoc
Jul 13, 2012, 03:38 PM
This may well have been a move by Apple to get the ball rolling to finalize the updated standards that EPEAT was already working on, perhaps a bit of a wake-up call for EPEAT.

OTOH, if Apple had truly intended to withdraw and reversed its decision, then kudos to those who spoke up about this and made a difference.

Arcus
Jul 13, 2012, 03:38 PM
This is Apple without Steve J :(

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 03:39 PM
Who said it was a mistake?

Apple stated their customers did. Read the article:

We've received word that Bob Mansfield is sending a copy of the letter, from his @Apple.com email address, to customers who had expressed concern over the EPEAT withdrawal.

They just used the word "concern" - but that is political.

iHateMacs
Jul 13, 2012, 03:41 PM
It changes nothing.

Apple products don't suddenly become environmentally friendly because they are on this register.

Jo Public has no interest. Is he really going to be looking at a shiny new iMac or Mac Pro and read the specs and decide that this is the machine for him then refuse to buy it because it's not listed on some hippy register?

It's another drain on resources.

nostresshere
Jul 13, 2012, 03:41 PM
I cannot stand waffling.
"Oh we made a decision. Oh, people are getting angry, let's change our decision."
Screw that. For better or for worse, make a choice and stick to it.
Finally, I hope Apple never lets these EPEAT standards dictate what they can or cannot do as far as product design.

For those of us that have made not only small, but major WRONG decisions, I commend Apple for not "sticking to their guns". Their reversal was surely a well thought out one. (not like what major governments do in face of media pressure)

mac1984user
Jul 13, 2012, 03:43 PM
It includes the rMBP now? :confused:

My thoughts exactly. How does that work?!

Rogifan
Jul 13, 2012, 03:43 PM
Wasteful is one thing. If I buy a Mac, I simply cannot afford to replace it every time it breaks. I might buy a used one. Maybe 2 years old - just because I like MacOS ad the design. I simply cannot just throw it out if it breaks after one year - at least I don't want to. I would like to be able to repair it with "commonly accessable tools" - and pentalobe would not keep me from doing that. Glue with the risk of toxic flames on the other hand would.

Just curious how many macs you've had that "broke" after one year? And what exactly broke that you had to repair or that Apple couldn't repair? The rMBP doesn't have a hard drive or optical drive. And fewer screws. In my mind that means less of a chance something will break. Maybe the batteries would need to be replaced but that's something Apple can do.

admanimal
Jul 13, 2012, 03:44 PM
This is Apple without Steve J :(

Actually, this sounds exactly like something that would have happened while Steve was still around.

Judas1
Jul 13, 2012, 03:44 PM
Whats with all the comments about EPEAT being like the mafia and are just demanding protection money? You don't have to be a part of EPEAT, but if you're not, it shows the direction you're heading in, and there will be backlash. Thats what happened here. No need for conspiracy theories.

Some people have blinders on and just can't see Apple doing any wrong. EPEAT not certifying some Apple products becomes EPEAT being a thug, when it was Apple that changed the designs of their computers. And Apple pulling rashly out of EPEAT and catching heat, becomes Apple making a strategic move to reform EPEAT. Please.

pacman7331
Jul 13, 2012, 03:45 PM
I'm really quite impressed by this. EPEAT is irrelevant, what impresses me is the company actually admitted they were wrong and reversed themselves, very unusual to see global corporations do that. That takes character.

However the reason for getting off EPEAT is also sort of a mystery also. Clearly the rMBP does not certify for EPEAT, but that is no reason to take the rest of the products off EPEAT.

But the criteria for reusability and repairability is something I hope the rMBP can attain in the future.

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 03:48 PM
Who says Apple is being wasteful? iFixit has their own agenda. They're not a neutral party completely unbiased. Oh and btw, most people aren't buying hybrid cars. But I think the planet will survive just fine. ;)

I don't know who said that. I asked the question if it is okay to be wasteful as long as you have some estatic benefit. I believe there has to be a balance. That's all.
To the hybrid cars: True. Also: Most people aren't buying Apple products either. So, you still can compare it. Both people are a significant market. That is why car producers build them and that is why Apple sells their products.

Rizzn
Jul 13, 2012, 03:51 PM
I cannot stand waffling.
"Oh we made a decision. Oh, people are getting angry, let's change our decision."
Screw that. For better or for worse, make a choice and stick to it.
Finally, I hope Apple never lets these EPEAT standards dictate what they can or cannot do as far as product design.

For me, making environmentally friendlier strides into future products is more important than making something .1" thinner.

trunten
Jul 13, 2012, 03:52 PM
I love how people still want to put the blame on EPEAT here and/or insinuate that by reversing their decision Apple is sticking it to EPEAT or whatever.

To recap removing all MR emotions

1. EPEAT has standards set forth to get their rating
2. Apple had several products which qualified. Some new products did not.
3. EPEAT maintained their standards therefor some new Apple products did not get the rating
4. Apple withdrew ALL of their products from EPEAT
5. San Francisco stated that without the EPEAT rating, unfortunately - they couldn't purchase Apple equipment going forward.
6. Apple issues a press release which takes a swipe at EPEAT
7. Apple changes their mind due to SF and regular customers expressing their concerns

The facts seem pretty clear to me. This is a good thing for Apple, EPEAT, SF and all customers. It's not a victory or defeat for any party. Stop trying to make it into one.

All good points except for the fact that all apple products are gold rated. And this didn't change just because they pulled out. I take more stock in what the company does rather than some mark.

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 03:59 PM
Just curious how many macs you've had that "broke" after one year? And what exactly broke that you had to repair or that Apple couldn't repair? The rMBP doesn't have a hard drive or optical drive. And fewer screws. In my mind that means less of a chance something will break. Maybe the batteries would need to be replaced but that's something Apple can do.

Now, let's start at the beginning: I didn't say Macs brake after one year. I said, if I buy a Mac it will probably be a used one - like a 2-yo Mac. Having that another year is 3 and then the warranty is out. (And about Macbooks, they had GPU problems in the past with free replacement, so, no company is safe from breaking parts.) Apple wouldn't repair it for free after that, do they? The more parts are to be replaced, the more expensive it gets. With the rMBP that means if I break the unibody or the mousepad or the battery, all three have to be replaced at once. And in this case, guess who is paying? It is not so much about that something can break - everything can - e.g. accidental damage. It is about that Apple produced it a way that it is not friendly for repair without replacing things that aren't even broken. I understand the soldered RAM - with a RAM slot etc, way more space would have been used. But the batteries do not have to be glued in a way you cannot service the part anymore. Just compare it to the Macbook Air: Easy to replace the trackpad. If you see it differently, we can agree to disagree on this subject.

iPadPublisher
Jul 13, 2012, 04:05 PM
Slate's Farhad Manjoo called the entire EPEAT situation (http://twitter.com/#!/fmanjoo/status/223833515198910464) a "really strange unforced error."


I suspect that Apple had been trying for some time to get EPEAT to update their certification guidelines. They probably scoffed, and Apple went this route to either break free, or publicly force EPEAT into submission.

It was spun in a way that Apple was out because the standard wasn't up to date, and restrictive for non-environmental reasons. They made EPEAT look bad, and it appears to have worked.

So, I'm not so sure this was an error at all.

cgk.emu
Jul 13, 2012, 04:06 PM
Perhaps EPEAT agreed to possibly review their requirements.

Kinda what I thought as well. Maybe Apple pulling their products was a calculated move?

samcraig
Jul 13, 2012, 04:07 PM
All good points except for the fact that all apple products are gold rated. And this didn't change just because they pulled out. I take more stock in what the company does rather than some mark.

Maybe now they are. But not so when they pulled them all out.

"Apple's recent Mac products, such as the Retina MacBook Pro, are difficult to fully disassemble making them ineligible for certification"

koban4max
Jul 13, 2012, 04:08 PM
apparently, Apple chickened out. They never stand firm with their products. Makes me mad.

samcraig
Jul 13, 2012, 04:14 PM
They made EPEAT look bad, and it appears to have worked.

So, I'm not so sure this was an error at all.

I'm pretty sure Apple got far more of the negative press. One wonders how many emails EPEAT got asking them to change their standards vs how many Apple got to comply.

Ultimately it is more important for Apple to get an EPEAT rating than it is for EPEAT to change their standards. YES - it's important for them to stay relevant. But EPEAT doesn't have stockholders and sales to worry about.

But again - this is good for all parties involved. EPEAT will update their standards to not be outdated. And Apple will get their certifications.

This isn't a lawsuit or a contest. I said it before, I'll say it again - it's not a question of winning or losing. Every action, in turn, has consequences. And now the scenario has played out to the advantage of everyone including the customers.

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 04:14 PM
apparently, Apple chickened out. They never stand firm with their products. Makes me mad.

What do you mean by that? All their products were certified before and are now again. Sure, they chickened out because they thought it wouldn't have that big of an impact, but apparently, it did.

What do you mean with "not standing firm with their products?" No product was changed - even though some like me would hope they use less glue.

JayLenochiniMac
Jul 13, 2012, 04:15 PM
I love how people still want to put the blame on EPEAT here and/or insinuate that by reversing their decision Apple is sticking it to EPEAT or whatever.

To recap removing all MR emotions

1. EPEAT has standards set forth to get their rating
2. Apple had several products which qualified. Some new products did not.
3. EPEAT maintained their standards therefor some new Apple products did not get the rating
4. Apple withdrew ALL of their products from EPEAT
5. San Francisco stated that without the EPEAT rating, unfortunately - they couldn't purchase Apple equipment going forward.
6. Apple issues a press release which takes a swipe at EPEAT
7. Apple changes their mind due to SF and regular customers expressing their concerns

The facts seem pretty clear to me. This is a good thing for Apple, EPEAT, SF and all customers. It's not a victory or defeat for any party. Stop trying to make it into one.

There seems to be a statement missing. EPEAT changes its standards now that the rMBP is on the list wearing the Gold status. Someone should confirm this as a fact.

bertman
Jul 13, 2012, 04:17 PM
Brilliant. Really. Do you think for one minute Apple didn't do this to force a re-assessment of EPEAT standards to match Apple's design strategy?

quietstormSD
Jul 13, 2012, 04:17 PM
I remember when I was called a troll just a few days ago for disagreeing with Apple's explanation on why they pulled out. I am satisfied at this recent development though. Remember Fan Boys, Think Different. Don't pile on.

Amazing Iceman
Jul 13, 2012, 04:17 PM
Apple realized they still had to pay the protection Money to EPEAT.

Yeah, a waste of time and money for Apple, just to comply with an outdate and flawed standard, just as you said, like paying protection to the mob.

And all that, just to calm the ignorants who don't really understand what EPEAT is, and who believe that if Apple doesn't comply with EPEAT, then it's an enemy of the environment.

samcraig
Jul 13, 2012, 04:22 PM
There seems to be a statement missing. EPEAT changes its standards now that the rMBP is on the list wearing the Gold status. Someone should confirm this as a fact.

It's vague on their website. I believe it's an act in good faith.

http://www.epeat.net/

An interesting question for EPEAT is how to reward innovations that are not yet envisioned with standards that are fixed at a point in time. Diverse goals, optional points awarded for innovations not yet described, and flexibility within specified parameters to make this happen are all on the table in EPEAT stakeholder discussions. And of course, timely standards development, as with newly created Imaging Equipment and Television standards, and the current refresh of the PC/Display standard, is critical as well.

----------

Brilliant. Really. Do you think for one minute Apple didn't do this to force a re-assessment of EPEAT standards to match Apple's design strategy?

Conspiracy theory. You know - when in doubt - typically the simplest answer is the right one.

In other words. Apple pulled their products and didn't care for the negative press and emails they got. There was no reason to pull the already certified products. They most likely went back and said they would rejoin but that EPEAT should proceed with updating their standards to be more current.

In other words - had Apple not gotten bad press and customer flack - they wouldn't have gone back. So they didn't do it to force anything. They simply believed there'd be no fallout.

tutubibi
Jul 13, 2012, 04:24 PM
It includes the rMBP now? :confused:

Of course :D

rcappo
Jul 13, 2012, 04:24 PM
Good for Apple and EPEAT. And good for the people and cities that complained. I agree that Apple is pretty good when it comes to environmentally friendly products and energy efficiency. And that is a good thing. :)

JayLenochiniMac
Jul 13, 2012, 04:25 PM
It's vague on their website. I believe it's an act in good faith.

http://www.epeat.net/

An interesting question for EPEAT is how to reward innovations that are not yet envisioned with standards that are fixed at a point in time. Diverse goals, optional points awarded for innovations not yet described, and flexibility within specified parameters to make this happen are all on the table in EPEAT stakeholder discussions. And of course, timely standards development, as with newly created Imaging Equipment and Television standards, and the current refresh of the PC/Display standard, is critical as well.

----------



Conspiracy theory. You know - when in doubt - typically the simplest answer is the right one.

In other words. Apple pulled their products and didn't care for the negative press and emails they got. There was no reason to pull the already certified products. They most likely went back and said they would rejoin but that EPEAT should proceed with updating their standards to be more current.

In other words - had Apple not gotten bad press and customer flack - they wouldn't have gone back. So they didn't do it to force anything. They simply believed there'd be no fallout.

But if it's an act in good faith on EPEAT's part based on the vague explanation, then one must question whether EPEAT wouldn't have been so quick to act had Apple not pulled this stunt.

ellsworth
Jul 13, 2012, 04:29 PM
Even Apple kneels before Mother Nature and her rating agency.

samcraig
Jul 13, 2012, 04:30 PM
But if it's an act in good faith on EPEAT's part based on the vague explanation, then one must question whether EPEAT wouldn't have been so quick to act had Apple not pulled this stunt.

I don't think it was a stunt. And I think EPEAT and APPLE genuinely want to better the tool. That's all. Nothing nefarious or planned.

I can't pretend to know what actually occurred - and probably no one will ever really know what happened behind closed doors. But I can conjecture like everyone else. And I think that Apple figure that since their newest flagship products weren't going to be certified - they might not have seen a reason to keep their "older" products with an EPEAT rating. Why? I don't know. But they thought they would just pull everything so that if questioned - they could issue the statement that they did - that EPEAT'S standards are outdated.

It's hard to "brag" about some of your products being certified (which they did on their site) and also state their standards are outdated (for the new products). It's a contradiction. By removing themselves - they could just state they think EPEAT isn't important (relevant).

Unfortunately - it backfired. And here we are.

Judas1
Jul 13, 2012, 04:30 PM
Yeah, a waste of time and money for Apple, just to comply with an outdate and flawed standard, just as you said, like paying protection to the mob.

And all that, just to calm the ignorants who don't really understand what EPEAT is, and who believe that if Apple doesn't comply with EPEAT, then it's an enemy of the environment.
There's no cost to Apple to keep the compliant products certified. But they chose to withdraw completely. What kind of statement does that make? That the environment is no longer part of their vision. They'd rather pursue ever thinner and prettier products instead. But maybe me and people like me are just ignorant of the truth: EPEAT bad, Apple good.

Swift
Jul 13, 2012, 04:32 PM
I think what they'll do is help the standard to "evolve". That's what they should have done from the start. They've contributed to the standard greatly. Now that tablets are de facto not going to be up to this standard, the standard will have to evolve. The publicity was bad.

warschauer
Jul 13, 2012, 04:35 PM
It's possible that this was Apple using their weight to change the standards.

I think that you nailed it. My guess is that anybody who sees this as an "unforced error" is very naive. A multi-billion juggernaut like Apple simply doesn't make those kind of errors. Apple wanted to force EPEAT's hand on something, and, having achieved their objectives, they backed off.

This may be related to the fact that the Retina MacBook Pro suddenly meets EPEAT's standards, or it may be related to some broader future issues. Either way, I expect that Apple got what it wanted out of this.

You don't expect Apple to announce publicly that this was all part of a power play, do you?

Rogifan
Jul 13, 2012, 04:35 PM
There's no cost to Apple to keep the compliant products certified. But they chose to withdraw completely. What kind of statement does that make? That the environment is no longer part of their vision. They'd rather pursue ever thinner and prettier products instead. But maybe me and people like me are just ignorant of the truth: EPEAT bad, Apple good.

Apple's products are no more or less recyclable today than they were yesterday or a month ago. What does EPEAT have to do with their commitment to the environment. If EPEAT ceased to exist tomorrow would Apple suddenly become bad for the environment? :confused:

swingerofbirch
Jul 13, 2012, 04:38 PM
I dare say Apple is rather mercurial when it comes to the environment!

Get it?

samcraig
Jul 13, 2012, 04:40 PM
I think that you nailed it. My guess is that anybody who sees this as an "unforced error" is very naive. A multi-billion juggernaut like Apple simply doesn't make those kind of errors. Apple wanted to force EPEAT's hand on something, and, having achieved their objectives, they backed off.

This may be related to the fact that the Retina MacBook Pro suddenly meets EPEAT's standards, or it may be related to some broader future issues. Either way, I expect that Apple got what it wanted out of this.

You don't expect Apple to announce publicly that this was all part of a power play, do you?

Ask yourself why EPEAT would give a crap either way? They aren't in the business to make money. They don't have stockholders. And despite Apple's slam in their press statement - it wasn't them that was under fire.

You know when the CEO of Coca-Cola was asked if it was a strategic move to introduce New Coke and pull old Coke off the shelf and then go back after a huge demand was created, the CEO stated, "the truth is - we're not that dumb... and we're not that smart"

In other words - they made a decision. It didn't play out the way they thought it would and did the best thing they could correct the situation.

BornAgainApple
Jul 13, 2012, 04:43 PM
1 step forward, 2 steps back

PracticalMac
Jul 13, 2012, 04:47 PM
If EPEAT is outdated, then Apple should make that an issue, not did what they did, which was dumb (short of outright stupid)

Judas1
Jul 13, 2012, 04:49 PM
Apple's products are no more or less recyclable today than they were yesterday or a month ago. What does EPEAT have to do with their commitment to the environment. If EPEAT ceased to exist tomorrow would Apple suddenly become bad for the environment? :confused:
The rMBP is less recyclable than the old MBP. Apple is pursuing products that will be less and less environmentally friendly. The complete pull out from EPEAT show they no longer support the standards that EPEAT represents.

Mak47
Jul 13, 2012, 04:58 PM
This whole scenario was very strange.
I can only surmise that there was a wiz-bang cat fight behind closed doors about "standards needing to evolve" before it all boiled over in public.

My guess is that EPEAT decided to slam the rMBP in the longevity/life extension category (the whole "least repairable laptop ever" thing) which could have taken it out of gold certification. That's obviously the future of Apple notebooks, so it's a big deal to Apple and it's better to deal with the fallout now than after they update the entire line.

Apple's argument was likely that the notebooks are just as repairable as any other notebook that Apple sells, you just need Apple to make most of the repairs.

The two sides clawed at each other for a while until one of them took their toys and went home. Apple pulled everything from the list, effectively saying EPEAT was not a viable standard for modern computers. A few government agencies made a public stink that they wouldn't buy the computers anymore.

EPEAT saw a large number of popular computers removed from their list. If Apple, a major proponent of EPEAT, is no longer a participant that's problematic. It tells other manufacturers that they too can disregard the standard. Eventually, the industry would develop its own standard and self regulate, which isn't an outcome that is friendly to bureaucrat paychecks.

In the end, EPEAT decided to give in to Apple. As a result, Apple instantly cooperated again having never tarnished the image of the EPEAT concept. It's likely that the exact scoring methodology will be reviewed in detail in the near future.

This is just my two cents, but based on the rMBP being certified as gold, I really don't think Apple was the losing side here.

kdarling
Jul 13, 2012, 04:58 PM
IMy guess is that anybody who sees this as an "unforced error" is very naive.

It's unbelievable that anyone would try to spin this as planned. If Apple wanted changes, they'd have done it quietly.

No company wants huge negative publicity like this.

A multi-billion juggernaut like Apple simply doesn't make those kind of errors.

Google the phrase "Apple backpedals". It's been a common refrain for a decade.

Apple constantly tries to be in total control. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 05:03 PM
This is just my two cents, but based on the rMBP being certified as gold, I really don't think Apple was the losing side here.

Sadly, I have to agree. 21 points and the Mac Mini only gets 18. That is sad. They should at least have it rated worse or not better than a computer on which I can put in and/or replace a SSD or HD or optical drive, RAM, etc.

Edit: Well, maybe they created a new standard (humor me here):

Gluebook:
-Less use of these unneeded screws
-Less of that temptation for customers to fiddle with their device
-less parts (Battery, trackpad, trackpad cable, housing counting as one, display assembly incl. back shell as another one)

rmwebs
Jul 13, 2012, 05:05 PM
This is Apple without Steve J :(

I wonder if these stupid comments will ever end.

It's really pointless saying that. You've got no clue or idea what would or would not have happened had Job not passed away. For all we know this has been in the pipeline for ages. Given that the retinabook would have been in development for a long time, they would have known about potential EPEAT issues very early in its development.

iBreatheApple
Jul 13, 2012, 05:05 PM
"I recognize that this was a mistake."

I respect Apple so much for owning up like this.

samcraig
Jul 13, 2012, 05:07 PM
EPEAT saw a large number of popular computers removed from their list. If Apple, a major proponent of EPEAT, is no longer a participant that's problematic. It tells other manufacturers that they too can disregard the standard. Eventually, the industry would develop its own standard and self regulate, which isn't an outcome that is friendly to bureaucrat paychecks.

In the end, EPEAT decided to give in to Apple. As a result, Apple instantly cooperated again having never tarnished the image of the EPEAT concept. It's likely that the exact scoring methodology will be reviewed in detail in the near future.

This is just my two cents, but based on the rMBP being certified as gold, I really don't think Apple was the losing side here.

Yeah. I just don't see it that way at all. I think a lot of people who support Apple (and some no matter what) will want to spin this in Apple's favor no matter what.

As I've said now (twice) - Apple had more to lose both in PR and being out of favor with stockholders and such to appease.

It was a miscalculation that was easily fixed. So they fixed it.

MacDav
Jul 13, 2012, 05:14 PM
You know what Bob? MAJOR CREDIBILITY GAIN HERE!

I'm actually pretty well versed on EPEAT standards and, while it is true they need to be updated (they are about 18 months behind the industry curve right now), I was very disappointed to hear that Apple just yanked support rather than try to use their weight to change the standards to something that made more sense not just for Apple but for the rest of the industry.

Big thumbs up in my book here...everybody wins!

Agree 100%

JoeG4
Jul 13, 2012, 05:17 PM
I think they should just save even more weight by welding the MBP shut. Then we wouldn't need pesky things like seams and screws, which would save weight and make the case more solid.

String
Jul 13, 2012, 05:22 PM
Not so wise in the first place, wise in the second place.

lilo777
Jul 13, 2012, 05:24 PM
I think that you nailed it. My guess is that anybody who sees this as an "unforced error" is very naive. A multi-billion juggernaut like Apple simply doesn't make those kind of errors.

That's your opinion. Now let's look as what Apple (Bob Mansfield) said. Quote: "I recognize that this was a mistake. Starting today, all eligible Apple products are back on EPEAT."

Yes, multi-billion juggernaut like Apple does this kind of mistakes all the time. Just recall how many times they had to change their App Store policies admitting their mistakes.

FakeWozniak
Jul 13, 2012, 05:24 PM
I think this was an intentional campaign by Apple to promote their products.
1) EPEAT standards are outdated
2) Apple is the most environmentally conscious tech/consumer goods company
3) older criteria make Apple look typical, or even slightly worse

By making a big deal out of this, Apple got free PR to focus on how good they are environmentally, and are forcing updates to EPEAT criteria.

Well played Apple, well played!

AppleScruff1
Jul 13, 2012, 05:29 PM
It sounds like EPEAT needs to evolve, and Apple just kicked their ass to do so. Hopefully Apple never compromises on design to fit some external, outdated environmental standard. Perhaps soon EPEAT will change, and Apple will be the only ones complying with it, having written the standards themselves.

Or maybe Apple realized the fallout from the decision and aren't as high and mighty as they think?

NewAnger
Jul 13, 2012, 05:30 PM
It seems that Apple doesn't think things through before making decisions as in this case. I'm laughing at this one.

----------

Or maybe Apple realized the fallout from the decision and aren't as high and mighty as they think?

This.

Jimrod
Jul 13, 2012, 05:35 PM
What's the betting on this being true...

http://www.knowyourmobile.com/blog/1482786/iphone_5_official_release_date_revealed_as_august_7.html

:D

macidiot
Jul 13, 2012, 05:40 PM
4S did away with that antenna issue and still looks "pretty", so that defeats your iPhone analogy. Apple isn't a fool because they haven't made any right or wrong decision. It was a choice, a choice that was skewered thanks to the pressure of the press and the San Francisco's government's silly requirements. This is not an FCC regulation. It's simply an environmental certification which is totally optional and not obligatory.

I supported them not to side with EPEAT because I appreciate the direction that they are headed with their design team. And if they already qualify for Energy Star 5.0, then by all means, sidestep EPEAT and make the best looking and most functional products they can in the future.

But using your line of thought, Apple should have just stuck with "you're holding it wrong." Not to mention NOT provide free bumpers or cases to people. Or redesign the antenna. Because all of those things would be considered changing their original decision.

They clearly made a mistake. And rather than ignoring outside pressure or facts, they chose to tacitly admit it and fix it.

So that defeats nothing. It reinforces the fact that reasonable people and reasonable companies will change their decisions when faced with the obvious error of their decision. Especially when it ends up better for them.

Perhaps you should read up on who else requires EPEAT certification. It is hardly just the city of San Francisco.

You are essentially advocating a policy of cutting your nose off just to spite your face. Think about it.

And finally, I don't know what design direction you are talking about other than stripping functionality and moving towards semi-disposable products. So, what, thinness? Because the Retina Macbook Pro, other than thinness and lack of ports and superdrive, pretty much looks like every Apple Pro laptop for the past, oh, 10 years. But that is another topic...

----------

Who decided iFixit is the authority on such things? And how many average joes need to be able to take apart their laptops and tinker with them. How many as compared to those who want thinner and lighter designs? Apple's customer base is not iFixit or hobbyist geeks.

This comment is so sad. I get it, but it makes me sad.

NewAnger
Jul 13, 2012, 05:43 PM
What's the betting on this being true...

http://www.knowyourmobile.com/blog/1482786/iphone_5_official_release_date_revealed_as_august_7.html

:D

That may be the announcement but the release will be in the fall.

AppleFan1984
Jul 13, 2012, 06:00 PM
It's possible that this was Apple using their weight to change the standards.
Yep, because nothing says "standard" like bowing to the wishes of a corporate giant.

----------

Yeah, you know what, I'm sorry, but Apple has had four color schemes during its lifetime; Rainbow, Gray-Glass, Black and White. None of these has, or ever will, include Green.

http://images1.americanlisted.com/nlarge/vintage_98_imac_green_all-in-one_desktop_computer_65_central_7996579.jpg

Sixtafoua
Jul 13, 2012, 06:01 PM
Hey look, more ******** from an executive!!
They're not making any kind of commitment here, it says that all eligible products will remain on the list. Given where apple is going, you can't tell me that in 2 years any of apple's products will be eligible.

Rogifan
Jul 13, 2012, 06:14 PM
Sadly, I have to agree. 21 points and the Mac Mini only gets 18. That is sad. They should at least have it rated worse or not better than a computer on which I can put in and/or replace a SSD or HD or optical drive, RAM, etc.

Edit: Well, maybe they created a new standard (humor me here):

Gluebook:
-Less use of these unneeded screws
-Less of that temptation for customers to fiddle with their device
-less parts (Battery, trackpad, trackpad cable, housing counting as one, display assembly incl. back shell as another one)

No one is forcing you to purchase a rMPB. Buy a different MB or leave Apple and buy something else. Totally your choice. But my guess is the number of people who want to get inside their machine is tiny compared to those who don't care or need to.

Shaun, UK
Jul 13, 2012, 06:21 PM
You put your MacBook in
You take your MacBook out
In out in out
Shake it all about
You do the Hokey Cokey and you turn around
That's what it's all about

samcraig
Jul 13, 2012, 06:21 PM
I think this was an intentional campaign by Apple to promote their products.
1) EPEAT standards are outdated
2) Apple is the most environmentally conscious tech/consumer goods company
3) older criteria make Apple look typical, or even slightly worse

By making a big deal out of this, Apple got free PR to focus on how good they are environmentally, and are forcing updates to EPEAT criteria.

Well played Apple, well played!


I think this is a ridiculous notion. Sorry. Apple doesn't need the publicity. At all. And they certainly didn't need the negative publicity - from pulling their products to an executive response for their mistake.

No. This wasn't a "play." No matter how you'd like to make it into one.

Rogifan
Jul 13, 2012, 06:22 PM
This comment is so sad. I get it, but it makes me sad.
Apple is doing what the majority of their customers want. And the majority of their customers don't have a need to get inside their machines. I don't get what's sad about that. I like the fact I can buy a product and don't have to think about it until I need to upgrade to a new one. And I'm guessing a lot of other people do too. iFixit needs to get with the times rather than being pissed at Apple for giving most consumers what they want.

charlituna
Jul 13, 2012, 06:23 PM
Companies make mistakes...

it's not really that major a deal in the end. Apple's newer computers aren't all EPEAT certified and I suspect that that will continue that way. I give it 3 years tops before there are no Apple products that meet EPEAT standards if they stay as they are today. And you won't see Apple changing their designs to stay on that list.

kiljoy616
Jul 13, 2012, 06:25 PM
Apple realized they still had to pay the protection Money to EPEAT.

People want this and has nothing to do with extortion. No paranoia or conspiracy theory needed. :rolleyes:

charlituna
Jul 13, 2012, 06:27 PM
I was very disappointed to hear that Apple just yanked support rather than try to use their weight to change the standards to something that made more sense not just for Apple but for the rest of the industry.

Pulling their stuff off the lists may have been their attempt to kick some sense into EPEAT. Basically saying that they don't want some pointless half ass sticker on their stuff if it is based on petty things like the type of screws someone uses. Not when there are real concerns that could be used to rate products

----------

It includes the rMBP now? :confused:

Nope. And if they ever decide to rate smart phones and tablets the iOS line up is screwed as well.

kiljoy616
Jul 13, 2012, 06:32 PM
I thought it was a strange decision to remove everything from the list

Strange yes, but Apple executives or on a bipolar high so they probably think or thought they could do what ever and everyone not a fangirl would follow blindly. Not so. :eek:

----------

Pulling their stuff off the lists may have been their attempt to kick some sense into EPEAT. Basically saying that they don't want some pointless half ass sticker on their stuff if it is based on petty things like the type of screws someone uses. Not when there are real concerns that could be used to rate products

----------



Nope. And if they ever decide to rate smart phones and tablets the iOS line up is screwed as well.

How is rules for best practice environment friend not making sense, maybe you can enlighten the rest of us no fanatics. The rules are there for a reason, Apple does not have to follow if they don't want, but stock holder are not all fan children who follow blindly. Some of us see Apple Co. as a Company with good products and nothing else.

I like Apple products but making a product that is not serviceable is not a good thing for anyone even those who blindly follow. :rolleyes:

pezj
Jul 13, 2012, 06:32 PM
I think apple did the right thing. Kinda surprised they didn't anticipate the result?

FakeWozniak
Jul 13, 2012, 06:36 PM
I think this is a ridiculous notion. Sorry. Apple doesn't need the publicity. At all. And they certainly didn't need the negative publicity - from pulling their products to an executive response for their mistake.

No. This wasn't a "play." No matter how you'd like to make it into one.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

Sylon
Jul 13, 2012, 06:37 PM
I thought the 15" Retina MBP, due to its inability to be fully disassembled, made it ineligible for EPEAT certification (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/07/apple-pulls-products-from-environmental-epeat-registry/)? Now, this article says the 15" gets a Gold rating? I'm confused.

JGowan
Jul 13, 2012, 06:39 PM
I think this was all a ploy to get EPEAT to look at its criteria and to change some out-dated stuff. Taking the toys and going home is sometimes needed to get your friends to go along with your overall benefit. It so looks like a tactic to me and that's all.

charlituna
Jul 13, 2012, 06:43 PM
I can't recall ever seeing blatant back Pedaling like this when Jobs was around. .


you mean like the back pedaling on putting video on an iPod. the back pedaling on having a dedicated App Store on iOS etc.

that back pedaling that didn't happen under Steve

bwillwall
Jul 13, 2012, 06:47 PM
Didn't that bob guy retire a few weeks ago?

I don't think he has left yet

JayLenochiniMac
Jul 13, 2012, 06:55 PM
I thought the 15" Retina MBP, due to its inability to be fully disassembled, made it ineligible for EPEAT certification (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/07/apple-pulls-products-from-environmental-epeat-registry/)? Now, this article says the 15" gets a Gold rating? I'm confused.

EPEAT apparently caved in and changed its standards. Looks like they need Apple more than Apple needs EPEAT.

Puevlo
Jul 13, 2012, 06:57 PM
Cowards.

MuppetGate
Jul 13, 2012, 06:57 PM
MacBook Retina fails to qualify for EPEAT.
Apple pulls out of EPEAT
Apple returns to EPEAT
The same MacBook Retina is now EPEAT Gold Standard?

Well, I'm not even going to try to guess what went on here, but if Apple hadn't taken a PR hit then the whole EPEAT scheme would've started to look a little suspect.

samcraig
Jul 13, 2012, 07:00 PM
I love how people are all Oliver Stone about this.

There's no conspiracy.

No one won. Or lost.

But that won't stop a lot of the posters here trying to rationalize one anyway. Pure comedy gold.

doelcm82
Jul 13, 2012, 07:00 PM
I think this was all a ploy to get EPEAT to look at its criteria and to change some out-dated stuff. Taking the toys and going home is sometimes needed to get your friends to go along with your overall benefit. It so looks like a tactic to me and that's all.
I agree.

20 years ago there was a hit musical playing in London (Miss Saigon). When the producers decided to move the primary cast to a new Broadway production, they were met with resistance from a group of Asian actors who objected to one of the lead characters (a Eurasian) being played by a European actor.

The producers decided not to bring the show to Broadway at all. Since the show had many smaller and chorus roles for Asian characters, these jobs just wouldn't come to New York. The Asian actors group relented, and the show went on Broadway for a successful run.

FakeWozniak
Jul 13, 2012, 07:06 PM
I think this was all a ploy to get EPEAT to look at its criteria and to change some out-dated stuff. Taking the toys and going home is sometimes needed to get your friends to go along with your overall benefit. It so looks like a tactic to me and that's all.

Agreed.

The tough part is you need to make it look like a mistake/faux pas before anyone will give you the free PR. In this case, I think most people didn't care that Apple pulled out from EPEAT, but do care about Apple being green. Notice that it wasn't Tim Cook that took the mea culpa. :-)

Now to pressure EPEAT into modern criteria so Apple's competition looks worse!

samcraig
Jul 13, 2012, 07:13 PM
I agree.

20 years ago there was a hit musical playing in London (Miss Saigon). When the producers decided to move the primary cast to a new Broadway production, they were met with resistance from a group of Asian actors who objected to one of the lead characters (a Eurasian) being played by a European actor.

The producers decided not to bring the show to Broadway at all. Since the show had many smaller and chorus roles for Asian characters, these jobs just wouldn't come to New York. The Asian actors group relented, and the show went on Broadway for a successful run.

not exactly how it happened. but way to adjust the story to try and make an analogy.

And before you refute it - I know a lot of the intimate details of the Miss Saigon production.

devilbond
Jul 13, 2012, 07:15 PM
I think Macrumors.com deserves a lot of credit here. You guys acted like true journalists and brought this issue to the public's attention and the world is a better place because of it. Thanks! :)

I read about it on Apple Insider before it was posted on Mac Rumors.

greytmom
Jul 13, 2012, 07:28 PM
I call political shenanigans by both parties.

Schizoid
Jul 13, 2012, 07:44 PM
the world is a slightly happier place now I know that Apple computer's components will be salted back into the earth from which they spawned... Jobs be praised

manu chao
Jul 13, 2012, 08:00 PM
Bummer. I thought this might be the kick Apple needs to realize that putting proprietary hardware in their laptops is a big middle finger to its customers.
Can you show me the non-proprietary SSD sticks that Apple should have used instead? Or are you suggesting Apple should use AA batteries instead of their proprietary ones?

minnus
Jul 13, 2012, 08:25 PM
Can you show me the non-proprietary SSD sticks that Apple should have used instead? Or are you suggesting Apple should use AA batteries instead of their proprietary ones?

You mean besides using any of the standard micro/mini-sata interfaces that all other SSDs use? :confused: Besides intentionally restricting DIY upgrades, I would love to know a reason a customer would find positive. (before you claim that it needs to be so because of the form factor, we have in the market the Asus Zenbook - same form factor as the Air, but as a DIMM slot for RAM upgrades, and a standard SATA connector for SSD upgrade/replacement).

100Teraflops
Jul 13, 2012, 08:31 PM
This is why I like Bob Mansfield! He has guts and is very classy! I hope he doesn't retire, as reported! :(

Craigwilliam
Jul 13, 2012, 08:31 PM
And people say Apple never listens to it's customers, well this is one of those occasions even though perhaps it's rare.

kdarling
Jul 13, 2012, 08:37 PM
I can't recall ever seeing blatant back Pedaling like this when Jobs was around.

A few examples...

2011 Jun: Apple backpedals on in-app subscription rules (http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/06/09/apple-revises-inapp-rules/?section=magazines_fortune)

2010 Sep: Apple backpedaling on some iOS development restrictions (http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/09/apple-backpedaling-on-some-ios-development-restrictions-will-al/)

2009 Oct: AT&T, Apple backpedal on iPhone VoIP apps (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9139024/AT_T_Apple_backpedal_on_iPhone_VoIP_apps) (because of FCC)

2008 May: Apple backpedals on 10 million iTunes song claim (http://www.macnn.com/articles/08/05/02/only.6m.songs.on.itunes/)

2008 Apr: Apple backpedals on 'deceptive' Safari promotion (http://www.cnet.com.au/apple-backpedals-on-deceptive-safari-promotion-339288292.htm)

2007 Oct: Jobs backpedals - Apple's iPhone SDK announcement (http://scripting.com/stories/2007/10/17/applesIphoneSdkAnnouncemen.html)

2007 Sep: Apple backpedals on exploiting early iPhone adopters (http://www.smoothharold.com/apple-backpedals-on-exploiting-early-iphone-adopters/)

AidenShaw
Jul 13, 2012, 08:40 PM
That you can return a product to the manufacturer for recycling is not enough.

No, and it shouldn't be enough. It's wasteful to ship your ewaste across continents for disassembly and recycling, when local or regional facilities could do the job.

And for the "just take it to the Apple store" argument - think about the reality that for most people the closest Apple store is hours away - if there even is one in their country.

Working with EPEAT is the right decision, nice to see that the new Apple is able to say "oops" and fix something quickly.

thefourthpope
Jul 13, 2012, 09:08 PM
Good. I hope the two parties work together to make sensible recycling standards that are relevant today and into the future.

myrtlebee
Jul 13, 2012, 09:29 PM
I kind of feel bad for Bob having to take all the heat about this. Wasn't this Apple's decision as a whole? Why not have it be a letter from Apple or a letter from Tim Cook?

iceterminal
Jul 13, 2012, 09:52 PM
You mean besides using any of the standard micro/mini-sata interfaces that all other SSDs use? :confused: Besides intentionally restricting DIY upgrades, I would love to know a reason a customer would find positive. (before you claim that it needs to be so because of the form factor, we have in the market the Asus Zenbook - same form factor as the Air, but as a DIMM slot for RAM upgrades, and a standard SATA connector for SSD upgrade/replacement).

As with everyone else, you're always welcome to purchase a product that you prefer more.
But if you make a purchase, and then you complain about it for whatever reason, you really only have yourself to blame.

Buyer beware.

Mad-B-One
Jul 13, 2012, 10:06 PM
A few examples...

2011 Jun: Apple backpedals on in-app subscription rules (http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/06/09/apple-revises-inapp-rules/?section=magazines_fortune)

2010 Sep: Apple backpedaling on some iOS development restrictions (http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/09/apple-backpedaling-on-some-ios-development-restrictions-will-al/)

2009 Oct: AT&T, Apple backpedal on iPhone VoIP apps (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9139024/AT_T_Apple_backpedal_on_iPhone_VoIP_apps) (because of FCC)

2008 May: Apple backpedals on 10 million iTunes song claim (http://www.macnn.com/articles/08/05/02/only.6m.songs.on.itunes/)

2008 Apr: Apple backpedals on 'deceptive' Safari promotion (http://www.cnet.com.au/apple-backpedals-on-deceptive-safari-promotion-339288292.htm)

2007 Oct: Jobs backpedals - Apple's iPhone SDK announcement (http://scripting.com/stories/2007/10/17/applesIphoneSdkAnnouncemen.html)

2007 Sep: Apple backpedals on exploiting early iPhone adopters (http://www.smoothharold.com/apple-backpedals-on-exploiting-early-iphone-adopters/)

Awesome post. As we can see here, changing your opinion is not always a bad thing...

JohnDoe98
Jul 13, 2012, 10:06 PM
Wow! Good job Apple! Taking that PR hit to get the RMBP to gold was worth it. Way to get EPEAT to cave.

I wonder what all the RMBP haters are now going to say, EPEAT isn't worth much anymore now that they gave the RMBP Gold certification?

Are they going to eat their words now that the RMBP is actually recyclable once again, though it wasn't yesterday? :cool:

minnus
Jul 13, 2012, 10:37 PM
As with everyone else, you're always welcome to purchase a product that you prefer more.
But if you make a purchase, and then you complain about it for whatever reason, you really only have yourself to blame.

Buyer beware.

Thanks for your insightful contribution!

doelcm82
Jul 13, 2012, 10:40 PM
Wow! Good job Apple! Taking that PR hit to get the RMBP to gold was worth it. Way to get EPEAT to cave.

I wonder what all the RMBP haters are now going to say, EPEAT isn't worth much anymore now that they gave the RMBP Gold certification?

Are they going to eat their words now that the RMBP is actually recyclable once again, though it wasn't yesterday? :cool:

This makes it seem as though EPEAT needs Apple more than Apple needs EPEAT. If a particular Apple product meets EPEAT guidelines, then it meets them whether apple participates or not.

Where does Apple get the power to withdraw ALL of its products from EPEAT's roles...even the ones that are in compliance...unless EPEAT needs the cachet of being associated with Apple?

JohnDoe98
Jul 13, 2012, 11:04 PM
This makes it seem as though EPEAT needs Apple more than Apple needs EPEAT. If a particular Apple product meets EPEAT guidelines, then it meets them whether apple participates or not.

Where does Apple get the power to withdraw ALL of its products from EPEAT's roles...even the ones that are in compliance...unless EPEAT needs the cachet of being associated with Apple?

Well, I think that's right. Both of them made some changes and concession, EPEAT's CEO in his letter now says:


An interesting question for EPEAT is how to reward innovations that are not yet envisioned with standards that are fixed at a point in time. Diverse goals, optional points awarded for innovations not yet described, and flexibility within specified parameters to make this happen are all on the table in EPEAT stakeholder discussions. And of course, timely standards development, as with newly created Imaging Equipment and Television standards, and the current refresh of the PC/Display standard, is critical as well.

Clearly that acknowledgement came as a result of Apple pulling out entirely of EPEAT when it wouldn't certify the RMBP as gold, yet now that Apple bit the bullet and backpedaled, EPEAT releases that statement and Apple goes back in and gets it's gold label.

So in the end it looks like Apple got what it wanted by causing all this commotion. And honestly I think Apple is to be applauded, they didn't care how they would look in the press, they just wanted their products to meet the highest standard of EPEAT certification, and they wanted EPEAT to consider some more modern metrics. Apple seems to care more about the product then it's image, which is why it didn't mind pulling this stunt.

Lancer
Jul 13, 2012, 11:12 PM
All I want to know from the Senior Vice President of Hardware Engineering Bob Mansfield is where are the updated iMac's and Mac Mini?

JohnDoe98
Jul 13, 2012, 11:19 PM
All I want to know from the Senior Vice President of Hardware Engineering Bob Mansfield is where are the updated iMac's and Mac Mini?

Their coming be patient! :)

lukarak
Jul 13, 2012, 11:28 PM
In other words, it worked. EPEAT is now willing to change to meet Apple's needs for design improvement. All of this was to force EPEAT to update the standards and it worked.

This is my thinking as well. Also, rMBP is Gold certified by EPEAT, so this was a non issue for the current lineup.

EPEAT should learn, as most of Apple's competitors did, to follow Apple's lead.

Macman45
Jul 13, 2012, 11:30 PM
Big enough to acknowledge that this was indeed a mistake. Well done Apple, the EPEAT registry is hopelessly out of date and is in need of an update, but it's better to fight your corner from the inside than just walking away.

A smart move here.

spacepower7
Jul 14, 2012, 12:18 AM
Companies make mistakes...

Or perhaps it was a clever game, to get EPEAT to welcome Apple back, compliment them and the allow them to raise the standards benchmarks to a level that only Apple can afford and have the foresight to compete?

It also gave Apple a chance to brag about being a industry leader in reducing use of toxic chemicals and in transparency.

Conspiracy theory?

But it's also classic to have the guy who's already retiring, to fall on his sword.

What Dell or HP news hit the mainstream media this week? None.

RobertMartens
Jul 14, 2012, 12:25 AM
I think Macrumors.com deserves a lot of credit here. You guys acted like true journalists and brought this issue to the public's attention and the world is a better place because of it. Thanks! :)

Maybe you can win a Pulitzer, if you would only stop using 'weighs in at' I would vote for you myself

----------

It's unbelievable that anyone would try to spin this as planned.

Google the phrase "Apple backpedals". It's been a common refrain for a decade.

Every single "Apple backpedals" was written by a journalist on the internet trying to 'spin' a story.

Google "Beleaguered Apple"

admanimal
Jul 14, 2012, 12:44 AM
I kind of feel bad for Bob having to take all the heat about this. Wasn't this Apple's decision as a whole? Why not have it be a letter from Apple or a letter from Tim Cook?

I'm sure he'll be fine in two months when he's relaxing at home, swimming in his pool of 80 million $1 bills.

Or to put it another way, Bob is in charge of hardware. This issue is about hardware. Seems like the right guy to respond.

MuppetGate
Jul 14, 2012, 01:48 AM
It's unbelievable that anyone would try to spin this as planned. If Apple wanted changes, they'd have done it quietly.

No company wants huge negative publicity like this.

Google the phrase "Apple backpedals". It's been a common refrain for a decade.

Apple constantly tries to be in total control. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Oh, it wasn't planned. This was a reaction to not being able to get their flagship laptop certified. Doing it quietly would have taken far longer.

A few days ago, the MacBook Retina didn't qualify for EPEAT.
Then we had this rather embarrassing tussle.
Now the same machine has gold status.

If Apple hadn't taken the PR hit then it would look as though they bribed their way to a certification. That would be a whole lot worse.