How do atheists/agnostics deal with death?

[springscansing]

How do athiests/agnostics deal with death?

Posted by Springs on 2002-11-08 11:43:28 .

Message


I personally am an agnostic. You can't know for sure that a god exists. And you can't know for sure that a god does not exist. If you knew a god did not exist anywhere in the universe, you'd have to be all-knowing, hence making you a god yourself. This is basic stuff. If someone can convince me one way or another, remind me to give you all my worldly possessions.

Anyway... how does an athiest or agnostic deal with death? Not on a grand scale, on a personal scale. Take for instance the person closest to you. Your wife, husband, girlfriend, boyfriend, brother, sister, father, mother, whatever. If you do not believe in a god and hence believe in no afterlife... how do you feel about that person's death?

For instance.. your wife has died. She no longer is conscious. She cannot think at all. She does not know you. To her, everything is non-existant. She, as the person you knew, has no existance, and never will again. She is just a pile of flesh and blood and other random bodily fluids, and not much else.

How can you rationalize not existing? For your wife, there is no existance. And on top of that, how do you deal with that? You can't say she's in a better place, because she isn't. She isn't anywhere, she's just gone. To her, it is as if you never existed.

Now... I'm sorry for this nuts topic, and I realize I am not the most metally with-it person going mind you, but... can anyone offer me anything on this? How can you deal with someone you love no longer existing, and knowing he or she never will again?

I mean.. what if my girlfriend gets hit by a car tomorrow and dies.. like.. I don't know..

[Mr. Anderson]

This should be an interesting thread, I hope it doesn't get out of hand though, its a good discussion topic.

First, why are you worried? It seems to me you are questioning your faith, or your belief. You don't believe in the organized religions and you want answers, but you have no place to go for them, no spiritual guidance except what you see and experience for yourself.

I think you're going to have to either seek out some sort of spiritual enlightenment or try not to worry about something you don't believe in. And remember, spirituality and religion are not the same thing.

Maybe you should let us know why you're worried about this.

D

[JupiterZen]

Anyway... how does an athiest or agnostic deal with death? Not on a grand scale, on a personal scale. Take for instance the person closest to you. Your wife, husband, girlfriend, boyfriend, brother, sister, father, mother, whatever. If you do not believe in a god and hence believe in no afterlife... how do you feel about that person's death?


It's just the way the universe works (in our perception anyway).

I lost my mother to aggressive cancer two years ago (took only three months or so). And you just life on without her.

I call myself a spiritual scientist. I like to ponder all kinds of possible realities and see how they make me feel. Exploring and contemplating different religious, scientific or spiritual explanations and test their validity with my knowledge. It's great food for thought, but in the end I must admit that I do not know.

So, until proven otherwise, my mother is gone. And all I have are my memories and the residual traces of her existance.


:cool:

[Megaquad]

Well I am personally christian. I found peace and truth in it.
Until year ago I was formally christian, but agnostic and open minded inside. I was also searching for truth but I couldn't find any proof which would make me believe in something..
Then I realized there are many proofs for existance of God, Jesus etc.
First I found some answers in christian bible, and found proofs in statements of saint's and other christian literature.
Those proofs can be supernatural happenings, sometimes in front of many people and they explained the core of some mysteries to me.
I heared for some of those things in real life from people I trust, like exorcism reports and such.
I experienced some things in the past so that probably helped in making my beliefs stronger.
My point is, dont force yourself to believe in anything until you are sure of it, because you will end up in the wrong way, that will destroy you.
Just stay open-minded, dont go to some sects if you ever in your life become desperate.
Stop searching for answers and let the answers find you.

[vniow]

Originally posted by springscansing


I personally am an agnostic. You can't know for sure that a god exists. And you can't know for sure that a god does not exist. If you knew a god did not exist anywhere in the universe, you'd have to be all-knowing, hence making you a god yourself. This is basic stuff. If someone can convince me one way or another, remind me to give you all my worldly possessions.




I disagree.

There is no need to be all knowing to know that a higher power exists, it's faith based. People have been doing it for thousands of years, for some reason they're wrong?
It's not something based off of worldly, rational thought, it's a feeling.
I take issue every time someone sez this cuz I have felt that existence and there's no way in hell that you're going to prove me otherwise.

As for an afterlife, I have a little theory about it; I believe that whatever you truley believe in, that's where you end up.
When you die, you just delve deeper into your own phyche, so deep that you reach a plane of collective consciousness. The same one others that have died have reached. It's something archetypal.
Now, the idea of a higher power or an afterlife couldn't have just come out of thin air right? You can't make something out of nothing and even if those ideas were just made up by a bunch of civilizations long ago, it still had to come from somewhere in their minds.

[agreenster]

This is the question of the ages: What happens when we die?

I think the safest, most simple answer is this- Have no fear or aprehension of the afterlife; the force that gave you life and sustained it these years will provide for you again when your time for death has come. In the meantime, love one another, be forgiving and strive to have a fulfilled life.

I dont believe in 'God' or Jesus, (or budda, or whoever) but this always gives me peace.

[agreenster]

Originally posted by edvniow


... so deep that you reach a plane of collective consciousness.

So you believe that after we die, consciousnesses will live together?

Originally posted by edvniow


Now, the idea of a higher power or an afterlife couldn't have just come out of thin air right? You can't make something out of nothing and even if those ideas were just made up by a bunch of civilizations long ago, it still had to come from somewhere in their minds.

Sure it could have. CUltures throughout history 'made up' stories about gods and goddesses for centuries, which have all been proven false. Just because some group of people collectively decide to believe something, it doesnt mean its true. If that was the case, Klingons would really exist, we would be living in the Matrix, and my neighbor is Hercules.

[vniow]

Originally posted by agreenster


So you believe that after we die, consciousnesses will live together?


Something like that.
This is something that I'm still trying to work out, it's a new area of thinking on my part.


Originally posted by agreenster
Sure it could have. Cultures throughout history 'made up' stories about gods and goddesses for centuries, which have all been proven false. Just because some group of people collectively decide to believe something, it doesnt mean its true. If that was the case, Klingons would really exist, we would be living in the Matrix, and my neighbor is Hercules.


Of course Kilngons don't realy exist and your next door neighbor isn't Hercules, but that doesn't make them any less real.
People have been reading those myths for centuries and sci-fi is nothing but modern mythology. There's obviously some truth to it if a lot of people can relate to it.
I believe that they were made up also but my question is where did that idea come from?

[Santiago]

Well, with respect to personal death, I don't fear it, but rather hate it. Since I believe that after my own death I will no longer exist, I will experience nothing, and there is nothing to be afraid of. On the other hand, I hate death because it will eventually deprive me of the opportunity to do everything that I would like to do the over the course of my life, requiring me to prioritize.

With respect to the death of others that I know, there isn't much to do. I get depressed for a while and miss the person or pet in question, then move on, because I'm still alive and have the business of living to attend to. Remember the good times you had with the dead, and be happy about what you did get to share with them; mourning is a waste of precious time.

[JupiterZen]

I disagree.

There is no need to be all knowing to know that a higher power exists, it's faith based. People have been doing it for thousands of years, for some reason they're wrong?
It's not something based off of worldly, rational thought, it's a feeling.
I take issue every time someone sez this cuz I have felt that existence and there's no way in hell that you're going to prove me otherwise.


Then I must partially disagree with you.

Because as much as you feel that you know there is a higher power, you cannot prove anything to me. Why should I believe you, as you cannot provide me with evidence. (I immediately must think of the movie Contact with Jodie Foster before a high council trying to convince them that she didn't just drop thru the alien device :D :D :cool: )

The reason people started believing in higher powers was because they were surrounded by things they could not explain otherwise. The more we explore and unravel reality, the more (we think) we can explain about it's workings thru rational thought. Leaving less space open for the option of a higher power.

I don't know for sure there is a higher power. But I cannot deny the things that I cannot explain thru rational thought either. Leaving me somewhere in the middle, unsatisfied with the options of the various believe systems available, because they cannot provide me with a convincing argument. So I collect information and establish my own 'faith' based on my own experience.

You have the right to believe anything you want, as long as you don't force it upon others.

'knowing' and 'believing' are two very strangely woven concepts. But I think you should try to keep them apart in a discussion like this. Because much to often these discussions get out of hand due to misunderstanding and misinterpreting eachother.

:cool:

[vniow]

Originally posted by JupiterZen


Then I must partially disagree with you.

Because as much as you feel that you know there is a higher power, you cannot prove anything to me. Why should I believe you, as you cannot provide me with evidence. (I immediately must think of the movie Contact with Jodie Foster before a high council trying to convince them that she didn't just drop thru the alien device :D :D :cool: )


I know what I feel and you're not going to prove or disprove me otherwise, nor am I going to provide you with hard evidence because it doesn't work that way.
It's something that everyone has to go through themselves, not everything I believe in is what everybody else believes in.


Originally posted by JupiterZen
The reason people started believing in higher powers was because they were surrounded by things they could not explain otherwise. The more we explore and unravel reality, the more (we think) we can explain about it's workings thru rational thought. Leaving less space open for the option of a higher power.


That's only partially true.
Take the Greek story of Hades and Persephone for example.
In elementary, I was taught that it was the Greek's way of explaining winter.
Upon further examination, I not only leared that the Greeks knew damn well what caused winter, hell they even know the circumfrence of the earth within a few miles!
If you sit down and start analyzing all those old myths, them you find that they explain more about the internal side of things than the external and that's where a higher power comes in.



Originally posted by JupiterZen
I don't know for sure there is a higher power. But I cannot deny the things that I cannot explain thru rational thought either. Leaving me somewhere in the middle, unsatisfied with the options of the various believe systems available, because they cannot provide me with a convincing argument. So I collect information and establish my own 'faith' based on my own experience.


That's actually what I did.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/grinning.gif
I grew up in the Bible belt and had a lot of Christian friends, but that whole area of religion never sat well with me for some reason.


Originally posted by JupiterZen
You have the right to believe anything you want, as long as you don't force it upon others.



If there's one thing I know what not to do it's that.
It's that Bible belt backlash again.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/rolleyes.gif





Originally posted by JupiterZen
'knowing' and 'believing' are two very strangely woven concepts. But I think you should try to keep them apart in a discussion like this. Because much to often these discussions get out of hand due to misunderstanding and misinterpreting eachother.


Agreed.
That led to some big misunderstandings in the 'creationism to be taught in schools' thread.


Originally posted by JupiterZen
:cool:

http://www.ranchoweb.com/thumbs/36754.21.that5C27scool.gif

[jefhatfield]

when i was 20, i thought i would live forever even though i am a theist

twenty years later, i know i am mortal and feel much different and feel really fortunate to have made it this long...twenty more years will be a gift and i take every day as precious now

so when i see a 38 year old barry bonds hit a home run, i understand the amazement of the announcers in awe of a man at 38 holding his own with twenty-something players

at some point, time will catch up will all of us...even barry bonds;)

[jayscheuerle]

Life is like a rich symphony of beautiful original music, all played without notation, coming from the heart, an intuitive mesh. When death comes slowly, perhaps a few musicians just don't play as well. When the final moment arrives, the music stops, and all the intruments fall apart. The players move on, eventually being presented a new instrument to play completely different music with a completely new band.

The elements of life have continued on since before life began. It's how they play together that makes us all different. When someone is gone, you'll remember the music that filled the air, not the notes that made the music.

Appreciate those around you every day while they are here and you'll have fewer regrets when they're gone.

Whether you lead your life based on faith or perception, the end we all face is the same. Think whatever you must to make your stay enjoyable for yourself and those around you. A true Agnostic has no doubts, for a doubt is evidence of a lack of faith. The most honest answer in the world is "I don't know". Agnosticism begins and ends there.

- j

[MisterBlack]

You can't really excercise good judgement on a subject like this until you understand and truly believe three important things:

1. Anything that any person claims as absolute truth (most religion, for example) is fundamentally incorrect. It might have had a sort of truth to it at one point in time, but that truth has been lost by the claim that the truth was there in the first place.

2. Everything is true. Anything that can be imagined exists. You make reality.

3. Nothing is true. Reality is an illusion. But it is your illusion.


This is the key to the universe.



"Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness; chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself. Think for yourself. Question authority."

[Kid Red]

Just because you don't believe in god doesn't mean you also don't believe in an afterlife. I personally do not believe in god but I do believe in spirits. We are all energy, positive and some *******s are negative. This influences your course in life. Right roads wrong roads, you get what you deserve as everything comes back to you whether it good or bad. I am a big believer in charma (sp?) I have a few times wished bad things on people who have done me wrong, putting bad energy out there against these people and negative things have happened to them. If enough people think negatively about someone, something negative will happen to them, and vise versa. I also believe that once our bodies expire, our energy stays around in the form of spirits. Not sure how i can explain my belief in re-incarnation, maybe these lingering energies are sucked up when a new life is born. I also believe those who pass may choose to stay around as ghosts, spirits, guardians if you will.

I don't believe the center of the earth is a fiery pit with demons and bad people breaking rocks and suffering. Same as i don't believe there's a big cloud in the sky with gates that house a lot of good souls.
So when someone I love passes, like my grandfather 2 years ago, his energy is out there, sometimes watching over me I believe. Hell, he might even have had a thing to do with my 15 month old daughter, who by chance is the only other person in my and my wife's family with blue eyes except my grandfather.

[Chomolungma]

Most of you seems to forget that we pass our DNA (half of us anyway, due to sexual reproduction) to our children. We also pass on our social being through the education of our children. In many sense we are the very being of the small population of people in Africa a million or two years ago. They live in us. We are all Africans. I'm satisfy with leaving this world knowing that I'll travel to the next life in my nephew and children.

As kids we were taught to be good and Santa Claus will reward us with presents. As udults, we are told to be good, and god (God) will reward us with everlasting life. But we already possess this reward. Some people are just wishing for too much, and as such, reality seems to fade away and grandiose dreams becomes reality.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by MisterBlack
You can't really excercise good judgement on a subject like this until you understand and truly believe three important things:

1. Anything that any person claims as absolute truth (most religion, for example) is fundamentally incorrect. It might have had a sort of truth to it at one point in time, but that truth has been lost by the claim that the truth was there in the first place.

2. Everything is true. Anything that can be imagined exists. You make reality.

3. Nothing is true. Reality is an illusion. But it is [B]your illusion.




Geez. This sounds so poetic- the kind of stuff college kid love. Is it French?

1. 2 > 1
2 & 3. You don't know what is true. Anything than can be imagined exists in your mind. Reality and your reality are two different things, with the difference being your perception versus the collective consensus and you cannot tell the difference without altering your reality. Reality is simply the summed input of our senses and the extrapolations built upon those. It's incomplete and it differs between us, but not so much that we cannot achieve great things by working together. To see with sonar like a bat or to cover 2,000 acres like a giant underground fungus, now those are different, and incomprehensible realities... - j

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by Kid Red
[B]We are all energy, positive and some *******s are negative.

Kid, what in the world does this mean, this new-age "energy" thing you speak of? I hear it tossed around so much, but nobody actually MEANS anything by it.

Energy is heat, right?
Energy is mass times the speed of light squared, eh?
Energy is transmitted through radiation, as in radio, microwave, ultraviolet, infa-red (see heat).

It seems like such a toss-away phrase to me, though most adopters us the "just because we can't detect/measure it doesn't mean it doesn't exist" line. Isn't that the definition of exist, except for concepts and feelings?

I can see how a bad attitude affects all areas of your life, from your relationships to your health, but this happens without intervention of the supernatural. Good attitudes work the same way.

Maybe some granola hut needs to sell "Positive Energy Bars".....

[MisterBlack]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle

Geez. This sounds so poetic- the kind of stuff college kid love.

:rolleyes:

My suggestion for you is this:

eat a tablespoonfull of liquid lsd.

IMPORTANT: DO NOT LOSE YOUR MIND.

if you do lose your mind, you screwed up, and should seriously consider a heroin addiction.

As long as you stay reasonably sane (ie, still able to function in society), you will see what I am talking about.

Originally posted by jayscheuerle

Is it French?


I am obviously typing in English.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by MisterBlack

:rolleyes:

My suggestion for you is this:

eat a tablespoonfull of liquid lsd.

IMPORTANT: DO NOT LOSE YOUR MIND.

if you do lose your mind, you screwed up, and should seriously consider a heroin addiction.

As long as you stay reasonably sane (ie, still able to function in society), you will see what I am talking about.



I am obviously typing in English.



Obviously, those who lose their mind aren't aware if they do.

I imagined you were typing in French, hence it's a reality.

Art school, late '80's, in Los Angeles.
I don't do flashbacks.

[vniow]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle


Kid, what in the world does this mean, this new-age "energy" thing you speak of? I hear it tossed around so much, but nobody actually MEANS anything by it.




Here's my view of this, first the physical part:
We are all made up of organs which are in turn made up of cells which are made up of molecules which are in turn made up of atoms.

The spiritual part:
What makes us alive?
Everything above. To be more precise, the right combination of it.
But what makes those chemicals actually turn into life?
My take on it is that life is the result of being greater than the sum of its parts.
Any scientist can take the same amino acids found in even the most basic of bacteria and mix them together in the exact combo as the bacteria itself, but it's not going to be alive.
Reason being is that it takes more than the right combo of atoms and molecules to make life, it needs something more.

[diorio]

Originally posted by edvniow




Reason being is that it takes more than the right combo of atoms and molecules to make life, it needs something more.


The right combination of atoms and molecules will make life, it doesn't really take anything more than that.

[vniow]

Originally posted by diorio


The right combination of atoms and molecules will make life, it doesn't really take anything more than that.


Really?

I'd luv2c your secret vat for making bacteria.

[Chomolungma]

"Reason being is that it takes more than the right combo of atoms and molecules to make life, it needs something more."

Those combinations of complex organic molecules interact with each other and together responding to external environment is the nearest defintion of "life" that I can think of without offending anyone sensibility.
For some reason those who think life is a force from above (in this case i'm refering to those who believes in the personal god variety) fails to hypothesize this alternative hypothesis. But then again when you begin to seek the answer to this question, I got a feeling you already have your mind made up. Coming up with alternative hypotheses are always, always, always important in critical thinking endeavor.

[diorio]

Originally posted by edvniow



Really?

I'd luv2c your secret vat for making bacteria.

What are the sperm and egg? Are they agents of god, or are they polyatomic molecules combining to form another chemical which leads to the development of a child? Everything is made of atoms and molecules, and all life have certain characteristics, such as they are made of carbon molecules. Life isn't created at the flick of God's hand, it's made from chemical reactions.

[vniow]

Originally posted by Chomolungma
Those combinations of complex organic molecules interact with each other and together responding to external environment is the nearest defintion of "life" that I can think of without offending anyone sensibility.


I agree with that it is the physical part of life.
I'm trying to explain the spiritual side of it which is much less concrete.


Originally posted by Chomolungma

For some reason those who think life is a force from above (in this case i'm refering to those who believes in the personal god variety) fails to hypothesize this alternative hypothesis. But then again when you begin to seek the answer to this question, I got a feeling you already have your mind made up. Coming up with alternative hypotheses are always, always, always important in critical thinking endeavor.


Actually I don't believe life came from a 'force above' I believe it came from a force inside.
Like I said before, I'm trying to see this from a more spiritual point of view, I think we've already got the physical base covered.

And yes I have considered alternative hypothesis, but I believe that life is more than physical which the 'greater than the sum of their parts' came from.
They're both mutual, I don't see why people have to think one or the other.

[MisterBlack]

Originally posted by diorio
Life isn't created at the flick of God's hand, it's made from chemical reactions.
It could be said, however, that chemical reactions are merely manifestations of 'the hand of god' that we are able to percieve.
This is assuming, of course, that 'god' (or whatever) isn't an old man with a big white beard that owns Heaven. What we think of as chemical reactions probably have a much more complicated role in what actually Is, beyond what we can experience.

[vniow]

Originally posted by diorio


What are the sperm and egg? Are they agents of god, or are they polyatomic molecules combining to form another chemical which leads to the development of a child? Everything is made of atoms and molecules, and all life have certain characteristics, such as they are made of carbon molecules. Life isn't created at the flick of God's hand, it's made from chemical reactions.


Of course everything is made up of atoms and molecules, there's no disputing that.
There's also a lot of things with chemical reactions too, but not all of them are what we would consider life.
Like I said before, where's your secret vat for maing bacteria from scratch?
Anything can reproduce, but you try building a new form of life in your basement and see what happens.

[diorio]

Originally posted by MisterBlack

It could be said, however, that chemical reactions are merely manifestations of 'the hand of god' that we are able to percieve.
This is assuming, of course, that 'god' (or whatever) isn't an old man with a big white beard that owns Heaven. What we think of as chemical reactions probably have a much more complicated role in what actually Is, beyond what we can experience.

Yes, that is a more reasonable argument than "god creates all life, no chemistry or any kind of science is involved". Chemical reactions may be more complicated that we think, and "something" could be controlling them, but what is controlling them is based on faith, faith primarily in god, or faith in science. These two can be combined, but I generally find that people have faith in only one or the other.

[diorio]

Originally posted by edvniow



Of course everything is made up of atoms and molecules, there's no disputing that.
There's also a lot of things with chemical reactions too, but not all of them are what we would consider life.
Like I said before, where's your secret vat for maing bacteria from scratch?
Anything can reproduce, but you try building a new form of life in your basement and see what happens.

Okay, maybe I will. It's not that hard to create a different form of life. How do you think new strains of bacteria such as Anthrax are produced? Their atomic structures are simply altered.

[Chomolungma]

"Actually I don't believe life came from a 'force above' I believe it came from a force inside.
Like I said before, I'm trying to see this from a more spiritual point of view, I think we've already got the physical base covered.
"

Since I advocate alternative hypothesis. I want to inject one here to attempt to answer the "force inside".

Alt. 1:The complex interaction of biosystems (biochemcal if you break it down further) produce complex results and higher complexcity which appears to us "life".

Again, I think you already know the answer to your question. Why bother asking yourself or for that matter us.

[vniow]

Originally posted by diorio


Okay, maybe I will. It's not that hard to create a different form of life. How do you think new strains of bacteria such as Anthrax are produced? Their atomic structures are simply altered.

From scratch
No blueprint, no reference points, nothing to base it on.
An entirely new life form created soley by you in your basement.

[diorio]

Originally posted by Chomolungma
"Actually I don't believe life came from a 'force above' I believe it came from a force inside.
Like I said before, I'm trying to see this from a more spiritual point of view, I think we've already got the physical base covered.
"

Since I advocate alternative hypothesis. I want to inject one here to attempt to answer the "force inside".

Alt. 1:The complex interaction of biosystems (biochemcal if you break it down further) produce complex results and higher complexcity which appears to us "life".

Again, I think you already know the answer to your question. Why bother asking yourself or for that matter us.

I'll assume that you are talking to me. I am a Catholic and have faith about the afterlife and that stuff. I just have trouble fathoming god creating all of the world and life forms and things. Realize, I am confirmed, I shouldn't be questioning any of these things, I should just follow them. I am just looking into alternate explanations of how life forms. Don't take offense to anything I bring up, I am just hypothesizing and am just trying to look at a science point of view.

[diorio]

Originally posted by edvniow


From scratch
No blueprint, no reference points, nothing to base it on.
An entirely new life form created soley by you in your basement.

Give those stipulations to god, could he do it?

[vniow]

Originally posted by Chomolungma

Since I advocate alternative hypothesis. I want to inject one here to attempt to answer the "force inside".

Alt. 1:The complex interaction of biosystems (biochemcal if you break it down further) produce complex results and higher complexcity which appears to us "life".


Again with the scientific explanations.
I've already stated my views on them and I agree with yours, there's no need to debate this any further.


Originally posted by Chomolungma
Again, I think you already know the answer to your question. Why bother asking yourself or for that matter us.


I really have no idea what you mean by this.

[vniow]

Well, whatever your definition of 'god' is, let's just say that there is one for the sake of argument.


Originally posted by diorio


Give those stipulations to god, could he do it?


Seeing how there actually is life, I'd say that the answer would be yes.

[vniow]

Originally posted by diorio


I'll assume that you are talking to me. I am a Catholic and have faith about the afterlife and that stuff. I just have trouble fathoming god creating all of the world and life forms and things. Realize, I am confirmed, I shouldn't be questioning any of these things, I should just follow them. I am just looking into alternate explanations of how life forms. Don't take offense to anything I bring up, I am just hypothesizing and am just trying to look at a science point of view.



Actually, I think he was talking to me.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/smiley.gifhttp://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/grinning.gif

I respect that you're trying to look at things from a scientific point of view, but that doesn't mean that it explains everything.

Science and spirituality explain the same things, just from different points of view. They're mutual, as opposed to cancelling each other out.

[AssassinOfGates]

once your dead, you're dead. simple as that. no heaven, no hell, no reincarnation, you're just dead. life is a joke IMO

(edit: im atheist)

[MisterBlack]

can you say 17?

[AssassinOfGates]

seventeen :) actually 16 mind you

[Durandal7]

I have a question for you all:

Why does a belief in an afterlife hinge on the belief in a supreme being? I'm sure that there are agnostics/atheists who believe that sentience lives beyond the body in some form but don't attribute it to a god or supreme being.

[scem0]

God, I am trying to stay away from religion threads because of well...
they just tend to have comments that I don't like. Well, I am agnostic...
sort of. I have made my own religion. It says: Do what you think
is right, and Home work is the source of all evil. That is the jist
of my religion. I already have 2 followers other then myself :D.
If my mom was to die then I wouldn't need god to get through it.
I would lean on friends and family's shoulders and not lean on god's
shoulder. I would heal over time. I would learn to live w/o her.

[AssassinOfGates]

well said scem0

[Mr. Anderson]

There's a new movie coming out that deals a little with this

http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/time_changer.html

Its more about how 20th and now 21st century society treats religion. Its a trend getting away from the church in a lot of ways. Why? I'm not sure. But one thing is for sure, because of science, we're finding explanations to the 'Meaning of Life' that until recently in human history we soley relied on god(s) and religion to explain to us.

What would be most amazing would be to somehow scientifically view what happens when someone dies and see if any 'energy' is transfered.

All a little strange, I know. But it is curious to know if we'll ever have an answer to that or if we'll have to rely on faith.

D

[scem0]

Originally posted by diorio


Give those stipulations to god, could he do it?

hehe, is that possible (giving something to god)?


Do I put anthrax in the offering basket at my church? :D I have
to congradulate myself on that one. That was a good joke.
Im usually not this funny.

well said scem0
Why thank you.

[vniow]

Originally posted by Durandal7
I have a question for you all:

Why does a belief in an afterlife hinge on the belief in a supreme being? I'm sure that there are agnostics/atheists who believe that sentience lives beyond the body in some form but don't attribute it to a god or supreme being.


Good question.

I think most people believe that since both are based mostly off of faith rather than earthly things, then they must go hand in hand.
May be wrong though.
Very interesting question, I'll have to think about that one.

[JupiterZen]

Originally posted by edvniow



I know what I feel and you're not going to prove or disprove me otherwise, nor am I going to provide you with hard evidence because it doesn't work that way.
It's something that everyone has to go through themselves, not everything I believe in is what everybody else believes in.



Agreed, it's a very personal thing. I know that, and by just looking around it is proven. But what I'm interested in is a kind of "universal reality". Not the 'believe' thing nobody seems to find agreement in. The question "what is real?" facinates me, because the answer is as complex and multifacetted as reality itself. It's a discussion with no end.



That's only partially true.
Take the Greek story of Hades and Persephone for example.
In elementary, I was taught that it was the Greek's way of explaining winter.
Upon further examination, I not only leared that the Greeks knew damn well what caused winter, hell they even know the circumfrence of the earth within a few miles!
If you sit down and start analyzing all those old myths, them you find that they explain more about the internal side of things than the external and that's where a higher power comes in.



I agree that myths explain a lot about the internal things. I've been looking into them as well and learned that old civilisations knew more about everything that I was thaught at school. Mayan, Egyptian, Chinese cultures maybe were even more sofisticated than our culture now. But there were things that they (and we) still could not explain. And we those things we attribute to a higher power. Just for the sake of having an answer to tell our children. When they start asking questions.


That's actually what I did.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/grinning.gif
I grew up in the Bible belt and had a lot of Christian friends, but that whole area of religion never sat well with me for some reason.


I think that is because no single believe or religion can give you the right and complete answer to all questions. You have to combine and formulate your own truth based on your experience. I never really liked Christian believe, but after I studied it more I just took the parts that I felt comfortable with and continued my search.


If there's one thing I know what not to do it's that.
It's that Bible belt backlash again.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/rolleyes.gif



Than I think you are on the right track. Sure we're gonna disagree on a lot of stuff. But that is good. Nobody can be the same. But I think you're exploring life to find you own truth and do not take things for granted. I think that is a good attitude to life.


Agreed.
That led to some big misunderstandings in the 'creationism to be taught in schools' thread.


Never read it. Must have been a good read ;)

[JupiterZen]

Originally posted by Durandal7
I have a question for you all:

Why does a belief in an afterlife hinge on the belief in a supreme being? I'm sure that there are agnostics/atheists who believe that sentience lives beyond the body in some form but don't attribute it to a god or supreme being.

Very good. I don't think that belief in afterlife hinges on belief in a supreme being. But I think that most people just put it all on one pile to make it easier on the mind.

Some people just pick a 'prefab' religion (there are many available ;) ) because they don't waht to think about complex things. They just want security and peace of mind.

Other start exploring for themselves. And seperate things more to find an answer that they can relate to themselves.

[scem0]

My view, being agnostic, on the afterlife is this:

Nobody knows what to expect after death. Anyone who claims
to know what the afterlife is like(if there even is one) , is crazy.
Nobody knows, and nobody ever will know, because once your
dead... well, must I go on? ANd nobody say anything about that
dying and then being rejuvinated right before your spirit completely
leaves the body crap. My mom made me go see a interviewish
type thing with this lady who had been hit by a drunk driver, and
had been rushed to the hospital, and she died, and went to
heaven, but then they revived her, and she had 'been to heaven'.
It was a big load of crap. She had background music playing
and she dramatized EVERYTHING. It was obviously rehearsed, and
totally fake. I believe that there could be an afterlife, but whether
it is Jesus at the end of a tunnel in the clouds, or Dante's hell, or
anything else, nobody knows or will ever know.

Unless technology reveals the afterlife to us...

[wdlove]

I don't think they give it a thought!