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MacRumors
Jul 14, 2012, 12:47 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/14/retina-macbook-pro-could-lose-epeat-status/)


Yesterday, Apple reversed course (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/13/apple-backpedals-puts-all-eligible-products-back-on-epeat-environmental-registry/) on their decision to remove their products from the EPEAT Environmental Registry. In a letter recognizing the move as a "mistake", Senior Vice President of Hardware Engineering Bob Mansfield reported that all eligible Apple products are now back on the registry.

The new Retina MacBook Pro was notably included in the "Gold" level status which represents the highest rating from EPEAT.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/07/OmNciIRWdbmSySlq.large_-500x375.jpg


Retina MacBook Pro battery via iFixit (http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Retina-Display-Mid-2012-Teardown/9462/2)
Fortune (http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/07/14/how-did-the-new-macbook-pros-get-gold-level-green-ratings/), however, cites the Electronics TakeBack Coalition's Barbara Kyle in a blog posting (http://www.electronicstakeback.com/2012/07/13/apple-rejoins-epeat-admits-quitting-was-a-mistake/) that expressed doubts that this rating will ultimately stick:Kyle explains: "It's important to understand that the manufacturers grade themselves against the EPEAT criteria first, and then EPEAT conducts a review of this grading. That EPEAT review has not yet occurred. They can require the manufacturers to remove any product from the registry if it is not found to conform to the IEEE standard."Kyle cites issues with required criteria for EPEAT's "Design for End of Life" which may prohibit the use of glue to attach the battery to the casing as has been seen on the Retina MacBook Pro.

A lack of EPEAT certification can have consequences as many government offices and corporations require certification for company purchases.

Article Link: Retina MacBook Pro Could Lose EPEAT Status (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/14/retina-macbook-pro-could-lose-epeat-status/)



miles01110
Jul 14, 2012, 12:49 PM
A lack of EPEAT certification can have consequences as many government offices and corporations require certification for company purchases.

Probably not, actually. Government offices and corporations don't use Macs very much to begin with, and when they do they usually aren't portables. Assuming it just affects the RMBP, anyways.

cdmoore74
Jul 14, 2012, 12:53 PM
So much confusion. So much indecision.

And here we witness the chaos without Steve Jobs.

koolmagicguy
Jul 14, 2012, 12:56 PM
http://media.avclub.com/images/395/395896/16x9/627.jpg

diddl14
Jul 14, 2012, 12:56 PM
In terms of recyclability I don't quit get the issue with glue?

Doesn't that make it easier to remove and recycle the battery?

The fact that the battery is not packed in some plastic casing also sounds like a big plus in term of less non-recyclable material used?

east85
Jul 14, 2012, 12:56 PM
Seems like Tim Cook probably found out about this just in time and kept the matter from snowballing. Unless it was his decision to begin with, in which case it seems he's learning. Either way, it's good to see the attempt. :apple:

SkyBell
Jul 14, 2012, 12:57 PM
Makes sense to me. No upgradability, means it gets tossed as soon as better performance is needed. I don't know about the rest of the world admitedly, but where I'm from recycling is almost unheard of and considered unnecessary and a waste of time. :rolleyes:

chrf097
Jul 14, 2012, 12:57 PM
Probably not, actually. Government offices and corporations don't use Macs very much to begin with, and when they do they usually aren't portables. Assuming it just affects the RMBP, anyways.

The rMBP for now, but soon it'll affect the rest of the Pros, the Air, the Mini, the iMac, and probably any other future computer as things get thinner and more compact. The only computer this would probably never affect is the Mac Pro.

zorinlynx
Jul 14, 2012, 01:00 PM
I think this whole gluing the battery in thing is the worst idea Apple has ever had.

Batteries are consumable. They need to be replaced eventually. They contain toxic chemicals and need special handling for recycling.

Why did anyone at Apple think gluing the battery in was a good idea? It makes warranty service on the battery more expensive for the company. Surely a mounting screw does not occupy THAT MUCH space!

A glued-in battery is barely forgiveable on a $500 iPad. On a $2000 laptop with a much bigger battery? It's preposterous.

hypnos58
Jul 14, 2012, 01:00 PM
Who cares what the oligarchs in DC think.

tiwizard
Jul 14, 2012, 01:00 PM
Probably not, actually. Government offices and corporations don't use Macs very much to begin with, and when they do they usually aren't portables. Assuming it just affects the RMBP, anyways.

At least in education, the schools around here use iMacs and the old polycarbonate Macbooks. I don't see them spending $2k+ on laptops when they have their keys pried off by kids, so this doesn't really seem like too much of an issue...

isoft7
Jul 14, 2012, 01:14 PM
So much confusion. So much indecision.

And here we witness the chaos without Steve Jobs.

Indeed... from everything I've seen over the past 3 months I fully expect Apple will see a rather dramatic decline in market domination going forward. And from that, direct evidence to the concept that Steve Jobs really was one of the greatest pioneers in the tech industry.

----------

I think this whole gluing the battery in thing is the worst idea Apple has ever had.

Batteries are consumable. They need to be replaced eventually. They contain toxic chemicals and need special handling for recycling.

Why did anyone at Apple think gluing the battery in was a good idea? It makes warranty service on the battery more expensive for the company. Surely a mounting screw does not occupy THAT MUCH space!

A glued-in battery is barely forgiveable on a $500 iPad. On a $2000 laptop with a much bigger battery? It's preposterous.

Agreed, with their success has come arrogance. It's time for a correction. Several attempts met with failure will force a change in mentality at Cupertino.

Fortimir
Jul 14, 2012, 01:16 PM
A glued-in battery is barely forgiveable on a $500 iPad. On a $2000 laptop with a much bigger battery? It's preposterous.

Do you know a better way to make a device as small as humanly possible with zero wasted space?

gnasher729
Jul 14, 2012, 01:19 PM
Makes sense to me. No upgradability, means it gets tossed as soon as better performance is needed. I don't know about the rest of the world admitedly, but where I'm from recycling is almost unheard of and considered unnecessary and a waste of time. :rolleyes:

Only a complete idiot would thow a Retina MBP away because it cannot be upgraded. Put a sign up "free MBP, not upgradeable" and you will find a stampede of people trying to get it.

But if you really want to throw it away, and you don't care about recycling, just take it with you when you buy your replacement Mac, and Apple will take it off your hands and likely give you some cash for it. (Probably goes to the back of the store, and after the store closes it will be auctioned to the employees, with the money put in the pot for the christmas party. Or it becomes the bonus for the "employee of the month". ).


I think this whole gluing the battery in thing is the worst idea Apple has ever had.

Batteries are consumable. They need to be replaced eventually. They contain toxic chemicals and need special handling for recycling.

So what happens when it needs replacing? You take the MBP to Apple, you hand over the cash, and they replace the battery. What's the problem?

farmboy
Jul 14, 2012, 01:20 PM
I think this whole gluing the battery in thing is the worst idea Apple has ever had.

Why did anyone at Apple think gluing the battery in was a good idea? It makes warranty service on the battery more expensive for the company. Surely a mounting screw does not occupy THAT MUCH space!

A glued-in battery is barely forgiveable on a $500 iPad. On a $2000 laptop with a much bigger battery? It's preposterous.

I'm guessing, based on taking quite a few things apart in my life (and most of which were not my original intent), that a 2-inch putty knife will separate the battery from the case. It should not be that big of a deal.

artificemm
Jul 14, 2012, 01:23 PM
I suspected that the whole issue of the certification was about the Retina MBP...

And obviously, the late Jobs, would be using his F.U.D. powers to convince all people otherwise... :D


So much drama...

diddl14
Jul 14, 2012, 01:26 PM
I think this whole gluing the battery in thing is the worst idea Apple has ever had.

Batteries are consumable. They need to be replaced eventually. They contain toxic chemicals and need special handling for recycling.

Why did anyone at Apple think gluing the battery in was a good idea? It makes warranty service on the battery more expensive for the company. Surely a mounting screw does not occupy THAT MUCH space!

A glued-in battery is barely forgiveable on a $500 iPad. On a $2000 laptop with a much bigger battery? It's preposterous.

That might well be, however this is about if a glued in battery is less environmental friendly and more difficult to recycle. Not if Apple is deceiving its customers by claiming that their latest battery technology no longer requires batteries to be user replaceable/consumable.

ShiftyPig
Jul 14, 2012, 01:27 PM
Do you know a better way to make a device as small as humanly possible with zero wasted space?

Surely leaving the layer of glue out would help.

Pivs
Jul 14, 2012, 01:27 PM
Who is really gonna break down and recycle all of the components of a laptop by themselves anyway. Just take it to apple!

dru`
Jul 14, 2012, 01:28 PM
I think this whole gluing the battery in thing is the worst idea Apple has ever had.

Of course batteries are consumables. Apple claims they've got a 5 year life and you can be sure they can be replaced by a qualified technician if, or when, they fail.

Remember Apple offers free recycling for its products all over the world and they've been building laptops for twenty years. Consumer replaceable batteries is probably a freedom you think you need when you really don't.

The key thing here is the marketplace LOVES Apple's devices which have made the choice to opt out of consumer replaceable batteries in favor of lighter, thinner devices with larger batteries.

Would I be satisfied with a "5 yr" lifespan on a $2000 laptop? Maybe not, but I'm honest enough to accept I never bothered replacing batteries in the ones I've owned.

Quicklite
Jul 14, 2012, 01:29 PM
Fascinating to see a different Apple under Tim - more corporate friendly, possibly more susceptible to consumer opinion - but we're definitely not used to U turns from Apple!

Cory Bauer
Jul 14, 2012, 01:30 PM
I guess I don't understand why Apple had to glue the battery to the inside of the laptop in the first place; I mean as tightly as this thing is assembled, wouldn't the battery just stay in place without any kind of adhesive whatsoever? And if they must adhere it to the case, couldn't they use a glue that's easlily breakable with a little force? The reports make it sound like Apple's using some kind of NASA-grade glue that makes it impossible to remove the battery without spilling it's hazardous guts all over.

numlock
Jul 14, 2012, 01:31 PM
Who is really gonna break down and recycle all of the components of a laptop by themselves anyway. Just take it to apple!

not an option for everyone

GadgetDon
Jul 14, 2012, 01:31 PM
Actually, I smelled a rat with the quick turnaround. I wonder if the reason for removing everything from EPEAT was to force negotiations about being "flexible" for the Retina MBP and similar future devices. Both the Apple statement and the EPEAT statement talked about working together to "improve" the standard. Within a month, before there's been a chance to review the RMBP, there will be an announcement with tightened standards on in a number of areas where Apple is ahead of the standard - and buried in the fine print is weakening of some of the recyclability requirements.

Peace
Jul 14, 2012, 01:32 PM
People here do realize this person doesn't represent EPEAT right ?

Personally I think she should be more concerned about this than Apple products.

From her own website too.

http://www.electronicstakeback.com/global-e-waste-dumping/

http://www.electronicstakeback.com/wp-content/uploads/Ghana-09-.jpg

firestarter
Jul 14, 2012, 01:35 PM
It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

In their move to retina displays on both the iPad and rMBP, Apple has chosen a technology that seems to be 70%* (or more) less energy efficient than its predecessor (*based on the increase in battery size on the iPad 3).

While retina is a great new feature, this move is absolutely not environmentally friendly in any way. I expect that Apple removed their devices from EPEAT just to avoid negative publicity here. I expect Apple's own EPEAT ratings to be downgraded when they're audited.

Marcus-k
Jul 14, 2012, 01:46 PM
In terms of recyclability I don't quit get the issue with glue?

Doesn't that make it easier to remove and recycle the battery?

The fact that the battery is not packed in some plastic casing also sounds like a big plus in term of less non-recyclable material used?

How would something glued in be easier to remove then if it was attached by screws like they used to be or not attached at all except for friction?

According to people dissasembling the rMBP the glue is so strong that you can't remove it without damaging the battery, which would cause the battery to leak dangerous chemicals and present a firehazard.

dagamer34
Jul 14, 2012, 01:50 PM
What I really don't get is the removal of ALL of their devices from EPEAT. There is little doubt that any government or school will be buying the Retina MacBook Pro in significant quantities were it not EPEAT certified, but most places have a far heavier slant towards iMacs and low end MacBook Airs/Pros anyway which are specifically called out with education SKUs.

An unforced error.

----------

How would something glued in be easier to remove then if it was attached by screws like they used to be or not attached at all except for friction?

According to people dissasembling the rMBP the glue is so strong that you can't remove it without damaging the battery, which would cause the battery to leak dangerous chemicals and present a firehazard.

I also don't think that a "trained" Apple repair technician would be significantly better than the people at iFixIt.

Shrink
Jul 14, 2012, 01:52 PM
So much confusion. So much indecision.

And here we witness the chaos without Steve Jobs.

I'm actually surprised that the world has gone on in any fashion without Steve Jobs.

Without Steve Jobs...chaos reigns! Indecision destroys all.

Without Steve Jobs...life as we know it is over.

That's it...before it gets any worse, I'm going to sit in a warm bath and open my veins...:(


:rolleyes::rolleyes:

GadgetDon
Jul 14, 2012, 01:53 PM
What I really don't get is the removal of ALL of their devices from EPEAT. There is little doubt that any government or school will be buying the Retina MacBook Pro in significant quantities were it not EPEAT certified, but most places have a far heavier slant towards iMacs and low end MacBook Airs/Pros anyway which are specifically called out with education SKUs.

An unforced error.

Apple only removes the Retina MacBook Pro, EPEAT waggles its finger at Apple at tells them to do better.

Apple removes all devices from EPEAT, EPEAT leadership considers the bad PR implications of one of the founding companies jumping ship which might get other companies to jump ship, calls Tim Cook and says "Let's talk". After some negotiations for "flexibility", Apple issues mea culpa and relists everything.

And yes, Apple jumping ship would be bad for EPEAT, might not take the same hit Apple took from the general public, but Apple's continued listing of EPEAT helps push EPEAT as something devices should have.

york2600
Jul 14, 2012, 01:53 PM
Probably not, actually. Government offices and corporations don't use Macs very much to begin with, and when they do they usually aren't portables. Assuming it just affects the RMBP, anyways.

Reasons why this statement is totally wrong:

Government includes schools and corporations are buying tons of Macs now. As soon as my company gave people the option Macs became 1/2 of new purchases. We have tons of them.

Aodhan
Jul 14, 2012, 01:54 PM
The glued in battery is inexplicable. They could have just as easily used double-sided tape. You can get it as thin as masking tape, and it could relatively easily be separated. Soldered ram means a wasted motherboard if it goes bad, plus there's no upgradeability. Proprietary flash drive too. These are some of the reasons I cancelled my Retina order.

Gluing that battery in like they did, though... it almost seems malicious.

iCaleb
Jul 14, 2012, 01:59 PM
I say Apple should start to allow user replaceable batteries on all portable devices.

And if they really wanted to I bet they could make the battery door look pretty sleek / stylish.

Things I hate Apple for.

No user replaceable battery's.

No wired track pad / wired magic mouse.

No anti reflective glass yet.

No dsl / cable modems built into airport products.

No black / white colored Apple products any more......people should have a choice when it comes to colors.

No Blu-ray.

On some iMac's dust and black junk can get stuck under the screen.....Apple should SEAL the display.

The only good thing I like about Apple would be their operating system's.

MuppetGate
Jul 14, 2012, 02:06 PM
It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

In their move to retina displays on both the iPad and rMBP, Apple has chosen a technology that seems to be 70%* (or more) less energy efficient than its predecessor (*based on the increase in battery size on the iPad 3).

While retina is a great new feature, this move is absolutely not environmentally friendly in any way. I expect that Apple removed their devices from EPEAT just to avoid negative publicity here. I expect Apple's own EPEAT ratings to be downgraded when they're audited.

Dunno.

With Apple putting all its products back on the EPEAT register, I would think that this has been thrashed out already.

KPOM
Jul 14, 2012, 02:09 PM
Fortune[/url], however, cites the Electronics TakeBack Coalition's Barbara Kyle in a blog posting (http://www.electronicstakeback.com/2012/07/13/apple-rejoins-epeat-admits-quitting-was-a-mistake/) that expressed doubts that this rating will ultimately stick:Kyle cites issues with required criteria for EPEAT's "Design for End of Life" which may prohibit the use of glue to attach the battery to the casing as has been seen on the Retina MacBook Pro.


I doubt this very seriously. Before they put their products back on, this had to have been something they discussed. Otherwise, it would be an even bigger issue when the rMPB came off the list.


Indeed... from everything I've seen over the past 3 months I fully expect Apple will see a rather dramatic decline in market domination going forward. And from that, direct evidence to the concept that Steve Jobs really was one of the greatest pioneers in the tech industry.

----------


It's been 9 months since his death. Will we always here "this would never have happened under Steve Jobs" or words to that effect whenever Apple meets with bad PR? Antennagate happened under Steve Jobs. So did the G4 Cube and "lamp"-style iMac. A lot of people regarded the first MacBook Air as a flop. Heck, even the original iPad introduction left some prominent tech reviewers underwhelmed, and provided fodder for comedians.

It will be tough for Apple to remain on top. That much is certain. However, it would have been tough even for Steve Jobs. Samsung would still have a Galaxy SIII, courts would still be ruling the way they are, Microsoft would still be making a Surface, and Google would still be making a Nexus 7 even if Steve were around.

Most of the team that he built is still around. Ron Johnson left to be CEO of JC Penney (but might be regretting that move), and Bob Mansfield is retiring, but the core crew, including the design team, is still around.

Rogifan
Jul 14, 2012, 02:09 PM
How will the world survive if the rMBP doesn't meet EPEAT standards. :eek: guess I better sell my Apple stock...

Amnesia87
Jul 14, 2012, 02:10 PM
Things I hate Apple for.

No user replaceable battery's.
- Who cares. The battery is rated to last 5 years... And the replacement cost is fairly reasonable.

No wired track pad / wired magic mouse.
- Seriously?

No anti reflective glass yet.
- Ummm anti-glare screens are available as an option for the MacBook Pro, and is rumored to be included in the iMac refresh whenever that actually happens.

No black / white colored Apple products any more......people should have a choice when it comes to colors.
- Really? Why does it matter what color your computer is? It's a computer not a fashion accessory.

No Blu-ray.
- This I will agree with just cause I can't figure out what possible reason they have for not including it. The drives are cheap now.

On some iMac's dust and black junk can get stuck under the screen.....Apple should SEAL the display.
- You do understand HOW an iMac is assembled and serviced right? The glass can't be sealed since pulling the glass off is how you open up an iMac. Sealing the glass would seal the entire computer O_o

The only good thing I like about Apple would be their operating system's.

O_o

Rogifan
Jul 14, 2012, 02:18 PM
Btw it was reported (I thnk in Fortune) that Apple spends millions of dollars every year for their products to be part of this EPEAT listing. I'm sorry but tat seems a waste of money to me. Being environmentally responsible in terms of recycling and removing toxins from electronic devices is common sense. It's not like Apple would be dumping things in a landfill if EPEAT wasn't around.

johncrab
Jul 14, 2012, 02:28 PM
So what if it does? EPEAT is just a standards scam, fed by those who attach meaning to irrelevant certifications because they're too dumb to determine if a product meets their needs.

firestarter
Jul 14, 2012, 02:29 PM
Dunno.

With Apple putting all its products back on the EPEAT register, I would think that this has been thrashed out already.

Then what was the reason for pulling them in the first place?

I think Apple fears downgrading and negative publicity, as the new devices have higher power usage and worse recyclability than their predecessors.

Pyrrhic Victory
Jul 14, 2012, 02:38 PM
Oh my god, it uses GLUE! It could destroy the rainforest! BAN IT!!!

satkin2
Jul 14, 2012, 02:40 PM
Surely with a chemical compound the glue can be dissolved or removed somehow, maybe this would mean that it would have to go to Apple for recycling, or that it would be much more expensive for recyclers, but just because there is glue doesn't mean that parts can never be separated again.

malman89
Jul 14, 2012, 02:41 PM
Reasons why this statement is totally wrong:

Government includes schools and corporations are buying tons of Macs now. As soon as my company gave people the option Macs became 1/2 of new purchases. We have tons of them.

If something is true for me, it must be true for all. Especially when I live in a super hip/progressive/liberal part of the country. The same can be said for everywhere!

Schools (universities) are 50/50 at best (if not 50-70% Windows) due to different programs, having the money, having the need - which really can't be said for many K-12 institutions.

Government operations are probably as minimally Mac as necessary.

Corporations - just depends on the company/industry.

I'm sure there's a much greater proliferation of iPads and iPhones than Macs in schools, government, and corporations, but as seen in the market share, there's still no mega-Mac takeover. Not yet.

Major.Robto
Jul 14, 2012, 02:45 PM
What is apple thinking with the MBPR

No upgrade for ram,
No upgrade for the SSD
No replaceable battrie at all, and its glued in.

What the hell.

What if the macintosh was never made, Would 1984 been like what the book said?

Guess, I should go read it.

You know I thought apple was about creativity and choice and stuff like that,

Where is the choice? The choice of parts and such? I think to be honest my next computer is a pc running OSX

iBug2
Jul 14, 2012, 02:47 PM
I don't see any government office buying a retina MBP. Regular MBP yes but retina? No way. No reason they should.

McKs
Jul 14, 2012, 02:54 PM
Makes sense to me. No upgradability, means it gets tossed as soon as better performance is needed. I don't know about the rest of the world admitedly, but where I'm from recycling is almost unheard of and considered unnecessary and a waste of time. :rolleyes:

Ah, yes, the american. This is for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16K6m3Ua2nw

This glue thing deserves to blow up in Apple's face.
Using glue is just poor engineering, it's not elegant and frankly undeserving of a (self proclaimed, no less) high end product.
And it adds unnescessary difficulty for both replacement in the event of early failure, and end of life recycability.

MuppetGate
Jul 14, 2012, 02:56 PM
It's been 9 months since his death. Will we always here "this would never have happened under Steve Jobs" or words to that effect whenever Apple meets with bad PR? Antennagate happened under Steve Jobs. So did the G4 Cube and "lamp"-style iMac. A lot of people regarded the first MacBook Air as a flop. Heck, even the original iPad introduction left some prominent tech reviewers underwhelmed, and provided fodder for comedians.


And let's not forget that stock option scandal that we never really got to the bottom of. Amazing to hear people talk as though he never made a mistake while he was in charge of Apple.

Rogifan
Jul 14, 2012, 03:09 PM
Oh my god, it uses GLUE! It could destroy the rainforest! BAN IT!!!
Yes we're all going to die sooner because Apple uses glue in it's products and makes more room for bigger batteries because *shock* people want devices that go longer without requiring a charge and *shock* want beautiful displays that require more power. How dare consumers ask for this. And how dare Apple meet consumers demands. :rolleyes:

----------

What is apple thinking with the MBPR

No upgrade for ram,
No upgrade for the SSD
No replaceable battrie at all, and its glued in.

What the hell.

What if the macintosh was never made, Would 1984 been like what the book said?

Guess, I should go read it.

You know I thought apple was about creativity and choice and stuff like that,

Where is the choice? The choice of parts and such? I think to be honest my next computer is a pc running OSX
Last time I checked no one was forced to purchase a rMBP. Apple does have other options. Oh and of course everyone ha the choice to buy something other an Apple. Great, isn't it?

DoNoHarm
Jul 14, 2012, 03:11 PM
I've also been really surprised with the trend of MBP's and MBA's with all these non replacable parts. They've put so much thought into the designs that I refuse to believe that this is the only way. I think they are purposefully designing them this way to encourage more people to throw them out instead of upgrading.

In fact, with the outer body largely remaining the same, why not even make them so that you can replace the logic board from say a 2009 model like mine to a new 2012 model? Some ports have changed, but if they wanted to, I'm sure the could have designed their new logic boards to have the newer ports in the place where the larger ports used to be and users could fit them in with adapters.

They don't care about the environment, they just care about profit.

MuppetGate
Jul 14, 2012, 03:14 PM
Surely with a chemical compound the glue can be dissolved or removed somehow, maybe this would mean that it would have to go to Apple for recycling, or that it would be much more expensive for recyclers, but just because there is glue doesn't mean that parts can never be separated again.

If it's the same adhesive they use in the iPads, then it may be as simple as running a hairdryer over the underside of the laptop to soften the glue.

In case I'm right, I'm going to start off the next round of complaints if that's okay.

"Apple's manufacturing processes prevent the battery from being removed by bald people."

KPOM
Jul 14, 2012, 03:15 PM
What is apple thinking with the MBPR

No upgrade for ram,
No upgrade for the SSD
No replaceable battrie at all, and its glued in.

What the hell.

What if the macintosh was never made, Would 1984 been like what the book said?

Guess, I should go read it.

You know I thought apple was about creativity and choice and stuff like that,

Where is the choice? The choice of parts and such? I think to be honest my next computer is a pc running OSX

First of all, Apple WILL replace the battery in the RMBP for $199. You don't need to throw away a $2200 computer when the battery no longer holds a charge. Second, Apple's have never had the same degree of expandability as PCs. Steve Wozniak was the tinkerer. Steve Jobs was the businessman and designer, and he wasn't as much a fan of "choice" as he was in selling you what he thought was the best product he could produce.

The SSD is removable, and OWC has already created a replacement drive for the 2012 MacBook Air. My guess is that they will follow suit with the RMBP. However, in general, I think that we'll see a slowdown in the growth of onboard storage (and a step backwards now that SSDs are more common), and more reliance on the cloud. Both Google and Apple are staking their futures on the cloud.

If we see what's happening, not just with Apple, but with Samsung (its most formidable rival right now), sales and profits are driven mostly by mobile devices like the iPhone and iPad. Those devices aren't upgradable, and have sealed cases. The PC is headed in the same direction. It's becoming an appliance. Intel is on board with the Ultrabook project. Microsoft is following suit with the Surface and WinRT (the latter of which won't even be sold standalone - so no "Boot Camp" for iPads, I guess). All-in-one "disposable" solutions are becoming the norm.

It's a sea change, to be sure, and undoubtedly disappointing to many used to the days of ultra customizability and tweaking (prevalent from the 1980s through the 1990s), but for that's the direction of the entire industry.

macintoshi
Jul 14, 2012, 03:19 PM
- Really? Why does it matter what color your computer is? It's a computer not a fashion accessory. Of course a choice of black aluminium would be very nice!

NAG
Jul 14, 2012, 03:20 PM
I've also been really surprised with the trend of MBP's and MBA's with all these non replacable parts. They've put so much thought into the designs that I refuse to believe that this is the only way. I think they are purposefully designing them this way to encourage more people to throw them out instead of upgrading.

In fact, with the outer body largely remaining the same, why not even make them so that you can replace the logic board from say a 2009 model like mine to a new 2012 model? Some ports have changed, but if they wanted to, I'm sure the could have designed their new logic boards to have the newer ports in the place where the larger ports used to be and users could fit them in with adapters.

They don't care about the environment, they just care about profit.

Yes, you've caught Apple. They don't really want to make a usable tablet that is light and thin. Those thick and heavy, upgradable Windows tablets were selling like hotcakes until Apple used their reality distortion time machine. They want to destroy the rainforest by using glue, which is Captain Planet's kryptonite!

I love false dichotomies. It makes not thinking so easy!

KPOM
Jul 14, 2012, 03:20 PM
In fact, with the outer body largely remaining the same, why not even make them so that you can replace the logic board from say a 2009 model like mine to a new 2012 model? Some ports have changed, but if they wanted to, I'm sure the could have designed their new logic boards to have the newer ports in the place where the larger ports used to be and users could fit them in with adapters.

They don't care about the environment, they just care about profit.

By that logic, shouldn't I be able to upgrade a 2006 car to the latest model by dropping in the new engine and suspension? After all, the body might not have changed much.

To some extent, what you are talking about has long been possible with desktops. Intel created a socket to enable switching processors. The ATX-style motherboard design hasn't changed much in years. However, people aren't much into "upgrading" as they are into getting new items. At the end of the day, it costs as much or more to "update" an old computer in a meaningful way as it does to get a new one.

DoNoHarm
Jul 14, 2012, 03:28 PM
By that logic, shouldn't I be able to upgrade a 2006 car to the latest model by dropping in the new engine and suspension? After all, the body might not have changed much.

To some extent, what you are talking about has long been possible with desktops. Intel created a socket to enable switching processors. The ATX-style motherboard design hasn't changed much in years. However, people aren't much into "upgrading" as they are into getting new items. At the end of the day, it costs as much or more to "update" an old computer in a meaningful way as it does to get a new one.

That would be great, actually. Instead of cash for clunkers, people could just throw in a 40mpg engine into an older car and not have the inconvenience of having to buy and sell. It would reduce pollution and free up cash to be invested in other endeavors.

Of course, it will never happen because it compromises profitability for the company. Just goes to show you that the companies only go so far with making environmentally friendly products....

MuppetGate
Jul 14, 2012, 03:33 PM
No black / white colored Apple products any more......people should have a choice when it comes to colors.

:confused:

And this is really important to you is it?

DoNoHarm
Jul 14, 2012, 03:34 PM
Yes, you've caught Apple. They don't really want to make a usable tablet that is light and thin. Those thick and heavy, upgradable Windows tablets were selling like hotcakes until Apple used their reality distortion time machine. They want to destroy the rainforest by using glue, which is Captain Planet's kryptonite!

I love false dichotomies. It makes not thinking so easy!

Actually, you're the one creating the false dichotomy and your post seems a little angry. :confused: You don't need to use glue to have a thin tablet. You can still have 99% of the battery volume by using 3 teenie screws to keep it fixed. And having the battery be easily replaceable with a new one means the user will quickly make up for that 1% if/when the user decides to recycle the battery.

NAG
Jul 14, 2012, 03:42 PM
Actually, you're the one creating the false dichotomy and your post seems a little angry. :confused: You don't need to use glue to have a thin tablet. You can still have 99% of the battery volume by using 3 teenie screws to keep it fixed. And having the battery be easily replaceable with a new one means the user will quickly make up for that 1% if/when the user decides to recycle the battery.

The I'm rubber and you are glue defense. Glad to see you at least dropped the whole Apple destroys the rainforest for money argument, though.

And sorry about you being confused. Hopefully you're able to better determine when someone is angry in the future.

Other than that, your post was pretty meaningless as you basically restated your point with zero evidence to support your claims.

KPOM
Jul 14, 2012, 03:44 PM
Actually, you're the one creating the false dichotomy and your post seems a little angry. :confused: You don't need to use glue to have a thin tablet. You can still have 99% of the battery volume by using 3 teenie screws to keep it fixed. And having the battery be easily replaceable with a new one means the user will quickly make up for that 1% if/when the user decides to recycle the battery.

Most people won't need to replace the battery. When they do, most will take it to Apple anyway. I don't see how not using glue would make much difference.

DoNoHarm
Jul 14, 2012, 03:49 PM
The I'm rubber and you are glue defense. Glad to see you at least dropped the whole Apple destroys the rainforest for money argument, though.

And sorry about you being confused. Hopefully you're able to better determine when someone is angry in the future.

Other than that, your post was pretty meaningless as you basically restated your point with zero evidence to support your claims.

And now your post seems passive-agressive. :)

----------

Most people won't need to replace the battery. When they do, most will take it to Apple anyway. I don't see how not using glue would make much difference.

I agree - although it would be nice for those who do to have the option to do it themselves. And those who won't would benefit from higher resale value from a device that is still in demand from those who are fine with replacing the battery and still using the device.

MuppetGate
Jul 14, 2012, 03:49 PM
Then what was the reason for pulling them in the first place?

I suspect that they couldn't get the Macbook Retina certified, so they pulled the whole line until EPEAT agreed to look at their standards. Once they got the agreement, they put all their gear back on the list, including the Macbook Retina.

I think Apple fears downgrading and negative publicity, as the new devices have higher power usage and worse recyclability than their predecessors.

Well, we don't know they are worse for recycling, so I can't really comment on that.

The power usage is also debatable. The screen definitely draws more power, but this can be partially offset by improved airflow and the lack of a hard disk motor.

But I think you're right: the Macbook Retina does draw more power. The screen is better, the chip is faster. So what do you suggest? Apple should cripple the machine to keep EPEAT happy? I would rather see them leave EPEAT permanently.

NAG
Jul 14, 2012, 03:49 PM
And now your post seems passive-agressive. :)

Nah, I'm just bored by trolls.

jtrenda33
Jul 14, 2012, 03:51 PM
Who cares.

rmwebs
Jul 14, 2012, 03:53 PM
I think this whole gluing the battery in thing is the worst idea Apple has ever had.

Batteries are consumable. They need to be replaced eventually. They contain toxic chemicals and need special handling for recycling.

Why did anyone at Apple think gluing the battery in was a good idea? It makes warranty service on the battery more expensive for the company. Surely a mounting screw does not occupy THAT MUCH space!

A glued-in battery is barely forgiveable on a $500 iPad. On a $2000 laptop with a much bigger battery? It's preposterous.

I agree completely. I've taken to either:

A) selling my macs & upgrading when they are around 2 years old to avoid having to deal with a dead battery after apple care expires)
or
B) taking a mac into the store for a battery change a week before Applelcare expires. Apple were the ones stupid enough to glue the battery in, so they can damn well pay for a new one.

Pivs
Jul 14, 2012, 03:56 PM
not an option for everyone

They also give out free pre-paid shipping labels...

arkhanjel
Jul 14, 2012, 04:07 PM
Probably not, actually. Government offices and corporations don't use Macs very much to begin with, and when they do they usually aren't portables. Assuming it just affects the RMBP, anyways.

Very true and the times they do use Macs they're aren't going to buy the high end laptop.

MuppetGate
Jul 14, 2012, 04:30 PM
That would be great, actually. Instead of cash for clunkers, people could just throw in a 40mpg engine into an older car and not have the inconvenience of having to buy and sell. It would reduce pollution and free up cash to be invested in other endeavors.

Of course, it will never happen because it compromises profitability for the company. Just goes to show you that the companies only go so far with making environmentally friendly products....

Your argument collapsed on the very first line. To begin with, if manufacturers were restricted by existing car frames then they would be unable to improve the engines in the first place. Any improvements in technology would be limited to satisfy backward compatibility. So you would not reduce pollution.

Secondly, fitting a 40mpg engine into an older frame would not give you a car that could do 40mpg. Why? Because the real improvements in fuel efficiency are down to other factors:

Lighter materials to build the shell.
Improvements in car aerodynamics.


And that's before we even talk about all the new safety features that wouldn't be supported by your old clunker.

Toyota is a prime example. They had to completely rethink their shell design to accommodate the batteries (sounds familiar). So under your scheme, we would have never got the Prius.

Incidentally, the battery pack on a Prius is guaranteed for 8 years. If it fails outside of the warranty, then it will cost $2000 + labour to replace it But what really sucks is that you can't do it yourself with a Philips screwdriver. :eek:

However, like Apple, they do offer incentives to make sure that people don't poison themselves or damage the environment by trying to save money by taking it to a mate who reckons he can do the job.

----------

You can still have 99% of the battery volume by using 3 teenie screws to keep it fixed. And having the battery be easily replaceable with a new one means the user will quickly make up for that 1% if/when the user decides to recycle the battery.

Nope. The problem isn't the screws; it's the brackets needed to accommodate the screws, and the screws needed to hold the brackets. Without the screws, they don't need the brackets. That means the batteries can be larger and/or the case can be thinner.

You don't drive screws through the battery into the case. You need brackets.

Gemütlichkeit
Jul 14, 2012, 04:48 PM
I knew it was daft of them to glue the battery in. Kinda pointless knowing that the air battery is just screwed in.

swingerofbirch
Jul 14, 2012, 04:48 PM
There's a lot of media reporting, including iFixit's very thorough review, but it seems like it's still not clear whether recyclers can separate the battery from the aluminum so that the battery cells can be refilled and thus reused and the aluminum recycled.

Apple obviously thinks that it can either remove the battery or perhaps just refill the cells since it offers mail-in service.

I think Apple must still be unsure about the recyclability of the computer itself since it originally pulled the computers from EPEAT and when it added them back did not make a statement on the rMBP.

The fact that Apple wouldn't know, after the product is already announced and shipping, seems a bit odd given its commitment to the environment and certainly leaves customers confused.

r.harris1
Jul 14, 2012, 05:01 PM
Reading through the multitude of posts during the course of the EPEAT shenanigans, it has become clear to me that what really bothers most people is less the recyclability of certain Apple products (though for a few on here it seems genuinely important) but more the inability to throw in a new battery themselves or upgrade RAM post purchase. EPEAT has become the lightning rod for this sort of person.

With my current late 2008 uniMBP, I upgraded the RAM after the fact and had to install a new battery. Because I spent many years building my own PCs with all of the latest this/that I was pretty comfortable doing the work but I have to say that anymore, I'm happier to pay people to do stuff for me and to max out the RAM at the get go. A little more expensive, but when I add in my time to do the work, it about evens out anyway. And that said, I'm done maxing out: RAM can't be expanded further, battery can be replaced but doing so myself isn't top on my priority list.

I also used to take pride in how long I kept one of my bespoke PCs running. But really, at the end of 5-7 years, the innards had been replaced so often that the only thing the same was the case. And in terms of cost both in equipment and more importantly (for me), my own time, it is a wash for me to buy new equipment more frequently and have other people deal with it. After all, as a software developer, the machines are my bread-and-butter.

These days, I am happier using my chosen tools than tinkering with them. To be honest, the recyclability of a product has never entered into a purchasing decision and probably won't ever do so. And you know why? Is it because I am an uncaring heartless bastard? Maybe, but really, it's because it's so much a part of our first-world society anymore that I don't have to really consider it. Most equipment manufacturers have a recycling program in place, whether it's to take it to some independent third party or return it directly to the manufacturers themselves.

So the next time I'm out to get a power hungry machine with a glued in battery and maxed out soldered RAM, I won't hesitate to grab the machine of my choice and because for me, Apple makes products that satisfy my current desire for both form and function, a nice rMBP might be the right choice.:)

ValSalva
Jul 14, 2012, 05:03 PM
I haven't read all these posts but two words come to mind: heat gun.

Stridder44
Jul 14, 2012, 05:07 PM
Retina MacBook Pro Could Lose EPEAT Status


To the surprise of no one

gnasher729
Jul 14, 2012, 05:14 PM
Reading through the multitude of posts during the course of the EPEAT shenanigans, it has become clear to me that what really bothers most people is less the recyclability of certain Apple products (though for a few on here it seems genuinely important) but more the inability to throw in a new battery themselves or upgrade RAM post purchase. EPEAT has become the lightning rod for this sort of person.

Nah, what bothers people is that they don't have the cash to afford the Retina MBP. Battery for a 2006 MacBook costs $129. Lasts 300 charges. Battery for a Retina MBP costs $199. Lasts 1000 charges. With 7 hours vs. 4 hours per charge. Do the maths.


According to people dissasembling the rMBP the glue is so strong that you can't remove it without damaging the battery, which would cause the battery to leak dangerous chemicals and present a firehazard.

They were not very good at it then, were they? Was that the same guys who tried to pull off the glass cover of an LCD screen that didn't actually have a glass cover? Just because the guys at iFixit haven't figured it out on their first attempt doesn't mean someone who knows what they are doing can't remove the battery quite easily.


I haven't read all these posts but two words come to mind: heat gun.

And I thought: Putty knife with a blade that vibrates at very high speed and cuts easily through hardened glue while leaving the softer battery untouched. Like a rotating saw that is used to cut through someone's plaster cast without damaging even the skin when it touches it.

tomsamson
Jul 14, 2012, 05:25 PM
Yeah, i wondered how credible that epeat certification is if Apple gets it granted for a device where so much glue is used.

jnpy!$4g3cwk
Jul 14, 2012, 05:32 PM
Would I be satisfied with a "5 yr" lifespan on a $2000 laptop? Maybe not, but I'm honest enough to accept I never bothered replacing batteries in the ones I've owned.

I have. And disk drives. And memory. It used to be reasonably easy, and, there is no reason for that to change.

Idefix
Jul 14, 2012, 05:38 PM
It's pretty obvious from the rMBP that Apple's whole laptop product line is going to go that direction. Namely, just like the iPhone, Apple doesn't want anyone opening their products. People do it anyway, but it takes a very much higher level of expertise. Apple makes more money.

Faced with having their future laptop product line fail EPEAT, Apple engineered this whole controversy to force more flexibility out of EPEAT. You could call it blackmail or brinkmanship, whatever, it was very effective.

tbrinkma
Jul 14, 2012, 05:45 PM
Batteries are consumable. They need to be replaced eventually. They contain toxic chemicals and need special handling for recycling.

Actually, I've been thinking about it, and this bit of your post finally made it click for me. Modern batteries DO require special handling for recycling. Putting them in an easily removable place might actually *reduce* the odds that they actually get recycled.

Scenario:
Your laptop still meets your needs, but the battery is getting a bit long in the tooth. You hit eBay or amazon and get an after market battery to replace it (typically saving about $30). You pop the old one out, and slide in the new one. I'd be willing to bet that *most* people at that point simply toss the old battery into the garbage and move on.

If you have to take it to someone to get the battery replaced, the odds improve that that 'someone' is aware that they shouldn't simply toss the battery into the trash, and will actually send it somewhere to be recycled properly.

Just my two cents.

LarryC
Jul 14, 2012, 06:06 PM
So basically, this is sort of like paying protection money to some criminal so that he/they will allow you to stay in business. I realize that my opinion might offend some of you and that is not my intention. But I have to say that in just about everything that has to do with environmental regulations and being allowed to have your products labeled as being "Green" it seems like a complete and total pile of horse hockey to me. I can understand people not wanting products to hurt the environment and/or to harm their children. But it seems as though it always ends up being abused and abusing others and it eventually gets taken over by some fanatic or fanatics. These people should not have this kind of power over others. Were they elected? Who do they have to answer to? Who died and made them God?

doelcm82
Jul 14, 2012, 06:09 PM
So much confusion. So much indecision.

And here we witness the chaos without Steve Jobs.

Barbara Kyle wouldn't have dared to say such things if Jobs were still alive.

Eriamjh1138@DAN
Jul 14, 2012, 06:11 PM
One of EPEAT's standard is disassembly with common tools, right? The battery needs to be separated from the case to be recycled, right?

Has anyone tried pulling, with one's fingers, the battery from the case? It may simply peel off. Fingers are a pretty common tool.

If the glue doesn't make the aluminum harder to recycle, and the glue doesn't affect the recycling of the battery, then the GLUE has nothing to do with the rMPB's recyclability.

Everyone is assuming it will, but we do not know that.

The glue is there to prevent the battery from flopping around. It doesn't need to be super-strong, permanent, holds like steel glue. It's probably hot glue, which everyone knows doesn't really stick for ****. That stuff just peels off just about anything.

iFixit did not try to remove the battery from the base. It may damage the battery, but that doesn't mean the battery can't be recycled.

Now the display... that's a different story. Not sure what kind of disassembly would be required to recycle it properly.

pubwvj
Jul 14, 2012, 06:33 PM
"prohibit the use of glue to attach the battery to the casing"

Boring. So what. I'm looking for better products. Just because EPEAT has backwards, antiquated standards means diddly-squat. I want real world rugged equipment. When I buy a machine I anticipate getting ten to fifteen years of use out of it. First I'll use it, then I'll pass it on to another family member, they'll pass it to another, etc. Apple Macintosh and iOS equipment lasts a long time. This matters far more than EPEAT's nonsense standards.

Use, Reuse, Recycle. Get it? Recycling is the LAST option on the list. It is far better to use and reuse.

As to government purchases, bah, humbug. Government purchases very few Macs. The US Post Office actually states on their web site that they do not support the Mac even for citizen users. Apple's not going to lose much in the way of sales by dissing EPEAT. Instead they'll gain far more sales by producing better quality products. Notice how the rest of the computer industry is flatlining while Apple is growing. Why? Innovation and quality.

----------

Makes sense to me. No upgradability, means it gets tossed as soon as better performance is needed.

Wow, you must be too rich and wasteful to boot.

When the rMBP is no longer what you want then:

1) Pass it along in your family or friends. Someone will love to have it.

2) Sell it. It will still be worth a lot of money and that will help pay for your next toy.

Oh, wait, you're rich and wasteful so you'll just throw it away because you have money to burn.

oLNutjob
Jul 14, 2012, 06:50 PM
In the US, any kind/brand of adhesive or glue (and pretty much everything) is lab tested and somewhat confirms to safety regulations to protect the "dumb U.S. consumer."

Offshore manufacturing in other countries, (China for example) does not bow down or always follow U.S. regulations. Melamine content in exported food, contaminated big box store drywall are only but a few documented examples.

The old, coined expression "I got Shanghai'ed" was actually based on a lot of truth. They really don't care a whole lot for us, except for the dollars.

blue5ft3
Jul 14, 2012, 07:01 PM
That was my biggest thought. They also give you money. I have old HP's and other old devices that I can't get rid of so how are they as highly rated with EPEAT. The local land fill won't accept them, the state facility that had dates that you could drop them off is down to twice a year. People are starting to dump them in the woods, side of the road etc. That is not safe at any level. I know when I turned our last Mac in and got an Apple store credit, that was great! I had read the ratings of their items when they quit EPEAS and I could be wrong but it looked to me as if it was the Macbook Air NOT the MBPR which had the high Energy Star Rating etc. if you have it repaired or send it back to be disposed of/recycled properly, that's better than any alternative we have available to us. If someone know if these other companies, HP etc are taking back their computers and devices to recycle please post. I'm tired of saying I have a new MBPR with all of the ruckus people raised about it, and I absolutely adore it. With the 3 year total warranty that will probably be all I need if anything does go wrong, and that's about as often as we upgrade our devices anyway. I have had enough years of tinkering with Windows PC's hardware well as software and with our Macs, Apple devices, it's such a nice change after 15+ years of Windows stuff, to use our devices and love using them. We are very happy with 7 in our home. I do think the EPEAT system DOES need to be upgraded or other products noted such as the the Samsung and Galaxy Nexus I believe? there was a whole list of them that do not have removable batteries and more. And what about all of the plastic? I wish they'd update the lists and there standards honestly.
I worked doing electronics assembly and products for years using epoxy resins, glues that are the Pro version of Super Glue, and they do have ways to release the part, and the grip of the glue for example. The worst part was the styrofoam, drilling it, it was what I had to use as the float with superglue type glue and magnets, soldered into a plastic tube, then filled with epoxy resin then attached to the plastic wires by soldering, and there was a computer chip glued in, same glue, guess what they were used for? They float in your gas station tanks to as an alert of a leak or imminent explosion . I was inspected by the government and certified. We lost our work which had been in a plant, reduced to at home work if we wanted a job with no benefits, and this was outsourced alone with so many other jobs in the late 90's -early 2000's. After seeing the chemicals they used that could remove these agents and many others, I have no doubt they have a way to remove the battery to recycle it.

KPOM
Jul 14, 2012, 07:24 PM
I have. And disk drives. And memory. It used to be reasonably easy, and, there is no reason for that to change.

Yes, there is. I've changed disk drives, and memory on notebooks (and desktops). The difference is those notebooks were bigger and heavier.

Plus, back in those days, we were often dealing with MB or even KB of RAM, and MB or low GB of disk space. Today Apple offers 4GB and 8GB RAM options in the MacBook Air, and 8GB and 16GB options in the rMBP. Generally, someone who needs 16GB RAM now will know it, and by the time someone who can get by with 4GB or 8GB will need 8GB or 16GB, chances are pretty good that they'll want a faster processor or better display or whatever else will have improved.

Notebooks always had less customizability. I suspect that desktops will also see less internal customizability, particular as Thunderbolt brings the possibility of added external functionality.

imola.zhp
Jul 14, 2012, 07:29 PM
Wgaf?

trunten
Jul 14, 2012, 07:58 PM
Incidentally, the battery pack on a Prius is guaranteed for 8 years. If it fails outside of the warranty, then it will cost $2000 + labour to replace it But what really sucks is that you can't do it yourself with a Philips screwdriver. :eek:

This really made me laugh. Thank you.

trollied
Jul 14, 2012, 08:10 PM
I'm really getting bored of news posts about this.

Where's the news post about how Apple ranks against other manufacturers?

Oh, they're way up there? Not news? Well then....

Seriously, do the research. Write the story.

iVoid
Jul 14, 2012, 08:56 PM
Probably not, actually. Government offices and corporations don't use Macs very much to begin with, and when they do they usually aren't portables. Assuming it just affects the RMBP, anyways.

Then the hundreds of mac laptops my company have are an illusion?

Apple may be giddy with their consumer oriented push right now, but there are many, many companies and government agencies that use them. And it's fairly obvious that Apple does make profit from them, otherwise there would be no reason they so quickly backpedaled on this decision.

As for the retina MBP: I have to wonder why they had to use such a powerful glue to hold it in place. Wouldn't a weaker glue or double-sided tape and the friction of the closed case do the same job? It's not like there's a lot of space in there for it to rattle around in.

netdoc66
Jul 14, 2012, 09:36 PM
Makes sense to me. No upgradability, means it gets tossed as soon as better performance is needed. I don't know about the rest of the world admitedly, but where I'm from recycling is almost unheard of and considered unnecessary and a waste of time. :rolleyes:

Where are you from? Mars?

You scare me... :apple:

Nungster
Jul 14, 2012, 09:43 PM
Makes sense to me. No upgradability, means it gets tossed as soon as better performance is needed. I don't know about the rest of the world admitedly, but where I'm from recycling is almost unheard of and considered unnecessary and a waste of time. :rolleyes:

Don't toss it for a better one, hand it down. Recycling 101, done.

NickBoy98
Jul 14, 2012, 09:46 PM
How would something glued in be easier to remove then if it was attached by screws like they used to be or not attached at all except for friction?

According to people dissasembling the rMBP the glue is so strong that you can't remove it without damaging the battery, which would cause the battery to leak dangerous chemicals and present a firehazard.


I have a theory that there is another way of removing the batteries...

It can't just be that there is glue which means no removing batteries...

The batteries must be removable to replace a faulty trackpad?!

Therefore the batteries must be removable?

I have a theory that you must replace the entire battery enclosure/frame thingy when the batteries a replaced?

... O.o?

Mad-B-One
Jul 14, 2012, 10:38 PM
- Who cares. The battery is rated to last 5 years... And the replacement cost is fairly reasonable.


So, what exactly is the replacement cost on a rMBP? My old Acer had a bad battery after 4 years of maltreatment and it was about $110 incl. shipping&handling. Is that in this price range, keeping in mind that it takes 5sec the remove it. The rMBP has it - as we know - glued to the shell, the track pad, and the cables. So, replacing all that for about $110? I doubt it. Not even mentioning that perfectly good parts will land in the trash...


Edit: It was the TravelMate 8000 2GHz which I payed about 4k Euro for. Was the top-of-the-line back then. It still works.

H2SO4
Jul 14, 2012, 11:02 PM
I think this whole gluing the battery in thing is the worst idea Apple has ever had.

Batteries are consumable. They need to be replaced eventually. They contain toxic chemicals and need special handling for recycling.

Why did anyone at Apple think gluing the battery in was a good idea? It makes warranty service on the battery more expensive for the company. Surely a mounting screw does not occupy THAT MUCH space!

A glued-in battery is barely forgiveable on a $500 iPad. On a $2000 laptop with a much bigger battery? It's preposterous.

Yes and no. From an environmental point of view it means that a larger proportion of the batteries are probably really being replaced by service centres and then disposed of properly.
Out of all the people you know, how many people take their old batteries, (from whatever contraption in which they reside), and just either throw them in the bin or drop them just anywhere?

I work for a company that deals with batteries daily, (Nicads, VRLAs and wet cells of anything from 12V 4Ah up to 2V 2000Ah blocks). We go through maybe a few tons a week. Despite all of the recycling on the companys part, the individuals still throw their batteries in the bin which likely goes straight to landfill.

knewsom
Jul 14, 2012, 11:35 PM
I think this whole gluing the battery in thing is the worst idea Apple has ever had.

Batteries are consumable. They need to be replaced eventually. They contain toxic chemicals and need special handling for recycling.

Why did anyone at Apple think gluing the battery in was a good idea? It makes warranty service on the battery more expensive for the company. Surely a mounting screw does not occupy THAT MUCH space!

A glued-in battery is barely forgiveable on a $500 iPad. On a $2000 laptop with a much bigger battery? It's preposterous.

While I quite agree that gluing in a battery is pointless and preposterous, from a recycling standpoint, a little acetone or hell probably even some orange-oil based solvent will take the stuff right out, and eliminate the need to pry apart a plastic housing to access the materials.

jcpb
Jul 14, 2012, 11:55 PM
Ah, yes, the american. This is for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16K6m3Ua2nw

This glue thing deserves to blow up in Apple's face.
Using glue is just poor engineering, it's not elegant and frankly undeserving of a (self proclaimed, no less) high end product.
And it adds unnescessary difficulty for both replacement in the event of early failure, and end of life recycability.
How do you quick-fix a car's hood in less than 60 seconds at a NASCAR pit stop?

Duct tape. Lots.

It's not elegant at all, but it does work.

Same thing going on here. It's not elegant, but it does work, that's all it matters.

Shop
Jul 15, 2012, 12:57 AM
Glue is not permanent.

G51989
Jul 15, 2012, 01:05 AM
Why all the fighting over a battery?

Its not like my much more powerful and power hungry laptops battery can be removed in 5 seconds ..... wait.

Gluing in the battery in the name of useless thinness ;)

Marlor
Jul 15, 2012, 02:13 AM
User-serviceability is not necessarily better for the environment.

I've thrown dozens of laptop batteries in the bin, along with motherboards, video cards, CPUs, etc.

When it comes time to upgrade a desktop or replace the battery in a laptop, I just pull the old parts out, throw them in the bin, and then put the new ones in.

My current Macbook Pro will be the first computer where I don't do this. Since I have to take it to Apple or a third-party repairer to get the replacement done, there is a much better chance of the old battery being recycled.

Best-practice these days is for the supplier to offer recycling services. End-user recycling never happened in the real world to any great extent. The scenario envisaged by EPEAT, where users (or disposal companies) pulled apart computers and recycled them, never really existed.

cjmillsnun
Jul 15, 2012, 02:15 AM
What is apple thinking with the MBPR

No upgrade for ram,
No upgrade for the SSD
No replaceable battrie at all, and its glued in.

What the hell.

What if the macintosh was never made, Would 1984 been like what the book said?

Guess, I should go read it.

You know I thought apple was about creativity and choice and stuff like that,

Where is the choice? The choice of parts and such? I think to be honest my next computer is a pc running OSX


Hmmm,

Lets look at the 1984 Mac

Needed a special screwdriver to open it.

No hard drive and no slot to allow one to be fitted.

128k RAM that was soldered onto the motherboard.


TBH I think Apple may have gone back to their roots!

FoxMcCloud
Jul 15, 2012, 02:18 AM
Image (http://media.avclub.com/images/395/395896/16x9/627.jpg)

I feel the same way.

Never has the word EPEAT been said more than in the last week. There's news, and then there is boring news.

Also, haven't the batteries in MacBooks been non user serviceable for some time now?

applerepairs
Jul 15, 2012, 02:20 AM
Batteries contain chemicals which are highly toxic and they need to disposed off properly and carefully else results could be danger

Ramius
Jul 15, 2012, 04:10 AM
Am I the only one who don´t like the new 15 inch retina Macbook?

I feel they sacrificed too much to make it thin.

They took the dvd drive out of the machine, like the Macbook air, but still, its not as thin as the Air. And that turns the machine into a third category, between the Air and the Pros.

Before it was simple, Airs were thin and did not have DVD drive, Macbooks had DVD drives and were a bit bigger and more powerfull.

I don´t know if people honestly miss the kensington lock. I don´t, but they took that out too.

And there´s one thing I miss on the newer Macbooks. They had all the plugins on ONE SIDE. That was much more clever and visually pleasing. I have the October 2008 Macbook, which had all plugins on one side.

I feel that Apple is little by little, straying from some of their values that made their products great.

Mustard Seed
Jul 15, 2012, 04:13 AM
Quoted for 100% agreement.

Hmmm,

Lets look at the 1984 Mac

Needed a special screwdriver to open it.

No hard drive and no slot to allow one to be fitted.

128k RAM that was soldered onto the motherboard.


TBH I think Apple may have gone back to their roots!

jcpb
Jul 15, 2012, 06:49 AM
Until USA enforces more recycling of e-waste to take place locally instead of the current practice of shipping e-waste to other third-world countries for 'reprocessing', programs like EPEAT are a waste of money and time.

MacBH928
Jul 15, 2012, 07:33 AM
I have following Apple for about 10 years now ,
with the latest iPad and macbook retina ... I think Apple's quality is already slipping away after Steve Jobs death.

This company turned from "quality" based , to "aesthetics+huge sales" based .

To prove this I want to say that my 2002 iMac lasted 7 years, and it was still good when i replaced it(only dvd burner died/still reads) . I would like to see current computers live that long with no issues.

Ramius
Jul 15, 2012, 09:07 AM
I have following Apple for about 10 years now ,
with the latest iPad and macbook retina ... I think Apple's quality is already slipping away after Steve Jobs death.

This company turned from "quality" based , to "aesthetics+huge sales" based .




Same as what I was trying to say earlier.

I mean look at Mountain Lion, it is a complete mess, and it´s almost breaking the border of the simplicity, that they used to have.

Now OSX is starting to be all about features features features, which are canceling each other out. It´s starting to be packed too full of it. If Steve was allive, I think he would have objected to this.

I really feel they need a fresh clean start with a new OS.

e-coli
Jul 15, 2012, 09:37 AM
Probably not, actually. Government offices and corporations don't use Macs very much to begin with, and when they do they usually aren't portables. Assuming it just affects the RMBP, anyways.

The FBI only uses Macs. So do all advertising agencies. All portables (who uses towers?).

bobr1952
Jul 15, 2012, 09:41 AM
So what happens when it needs replacing? You take the MBP to Apple, you hand over the cash, and they replace the battery. What's the problem?

Agreed. Seems that would make it more recyclable since Apple will recycle the battery whereas the consumer might just pitch it.

e-coli
Jul 15, 2012, 09:42 AM
Same as what I was trying to say earlier.

I mean look at Mountain Lion, it is a complete mess, and it´s almost breaking the border of the simplicity, that they used to have.

Now OSX is starting to be all about features features features, which are canceling each other out. It´s starting to be packed too full of it. If Steve was allive, I think he would have objected to this.

I really feel they need a fresh clean start with a new OS.

How is Mountain Lion a mess? It's more of a mess to have to go into Mail to find a note you jotted down. And what happens to those reminders I made on my phone? Oh, right. They're in iCal (if anywhere).

Messages is GREAT, as is iCloud Safari tabs. I really have no idea what you're expecting.

Apple's biggest problem at the moment is photo management. Now THAT is a bit of a wreck (particularly on iOS devices).

Rogifan
Jul 15, 2012, 10:16 AM
Am I the only one who don´t like the new 15 inch retina Macbook?

I feel they sacrificed too much to make it thin.

They took the dvd drive out of the machine, like the Macbook air, but still, its not as thin as the Air. And that turns the machine into a third category, between the Air and the Pros.

Before it was simple, Airs were thin and did not have DVD drive, Macbooks had DVD drives and were a bit bigger and more powerfull.

I don´t know if people honestly miss the kensington lock. I don´t, but they took that out too.

And there´s one thing I miss on the newer Macbooks. They had all the plugins on ONE SIDE. That was much more clever and visually pleasing. I have the October 2008 Macbook, which had all plugins on one side.

I feel that Apple is little by little, straying from some of their values that made their products great.
Just curious what people use DVD drives on a laptop for these days? I can't remember the last time I used mine.

Ramius
Jul 15, 2012, 10:22 AM
How is Mountain Lion a mess? It's more of a mess to have to go into Mail to find a note you jotted down. And what happens to those reminders I made on my phone? Oh, right. They're in iCal (if anywhere).

Messages is GREAT, as is iCloud Safari tabs. I really have no idea what you're expecting.

Apple's biggest problem at the moment is photo management. Now THAT is a bit of a wreck (particularly on iOS devices).

Look at what they have turned the once beautiful Expose into. Something absolutely horrible, that links several features together, thats not really equally important. Like dashboard widgets.

And you talk about reminders, yes? Before it was simple - you added reminders in your calendar. That made perfect sense. Then shortly after Steve died, or before he died - they added reminders. A completely useless application, that did something another application already delivered.

These are just two examples, of how OSX is becoming more cluttered, and maximised with features, which are gradually destroying the simplicity.

logandzwon
Jul 15, 2012, 10:28 AM
not an option for everyone

Really? Who can't fill-out a form on-line, wait for the box to be hand delivered to their door, then put their unwanted decade old computer into that box, call the number on the box, and then leave it the box in front of their door for pick up?

(I mean I can see some people have difficultly with that, but I'm talking someone whom IS able to take their unwanted computer to a conventional computer recycler and pay any required fee.)

e-coli
Jul 15, 2012, 10:34 AM
And you talk about reminders, yes? Before it was simple - you added reminders in your calendar. That made perfect sense. Then shortly after Steve died, or before he died - they added reminders. A completely useless application, that did something another application already delivered.

Fair point on Expose. It's a bit more complicated now (although I find it useful, it took me a long time to get used to it). However, you can still do everything in the new dashboard that you could in the old exposé.

But I always really disliked the slim right-hand column of to-do's in iCal. Those were afterthoughts crammed onto a calendar app. It was visually busy, uncategorized, misordered, and they never went away when you completed them.

My day is so packed with double-booked meetings that the last thing I want is "pick up milk, dog food, and pay the housekeeper" in my already packed calendar.

To each his own, but I appreciate the (relative) simplicity of having things in my computer OS match the locations and items on my phone.

rjohnstone
Jul 15, 2012, 11:05 AM
The FBI only uses Macs. So do all advertising agencies. All portables (who uses towers?).
I call BS on the FBI claim.

The two FBI agents who came to collect a server drive array from us after we had a breach were both carrying Dell laptops.

As for saying "all" ad agencies use Macs, I'll just have to say BS on that as well.
Many or even most perhaps, but all.... I doubt it.

Ramius
Jul 15, 2012, 11:16 AM
Fair point on Expose. It's a bit more complicated now (although I find it useful, it took me a long time to get used to it). However, you can still do everything in the new dashboard that you could in the old exposé.

But I always really disliked the slim right-hand column of to-do's in iCal. Those were afterthoughts crammed onto a calendar app. It was visually busy, uncategorized, misordered, and they never went away when you completed them.

My day is so packed with double-booked meetings that the last thing I want is "pick up milk, dog food, and pay the housekeeper" in my already packed calendar.

To each his own, but I appreciate the (relative) simplicity of having things in my computer OS match the locations and items on my phone.

I think you perhaps use calendar more than most people then.

And you can also do everything in Windows, that you can on a Mac. So that argument doesn´t fly with me. They destroyed expose, and sacrificed simplicity in regards for cluttery mess. In fine words, someone at Apple now thinks all functions should be able to do as much as possible.

That way of thought, is gradually steering OSX into the way of Windows. Soon we´ll be able to adjust everything on the graphics chips also. Frequency, temperature, Open GL, etc etc. Theres a reason they keep this out, because it clutters the interface and confuse the user.

Another example is the two apps News stand and iBooks. Two completely identical apps, with just slightly different content.

e-coli
Jul 15, 2012, 11:19 AM
I call BS on the FBI claim.

The two FBI agents who came to collect a server drive array from us after we had a breach were both carrying Dell laptops.

As for saying "all" ad agencies use Macs, I'll just have to say BS on that as well.
Many or even most perhaps, but all.... I doubt it.

The FBI switching to Macs was a story in Wired last year. Don't know if that applied to field agents.

Um. Yes. All real ad agencies use Macs. Good luck finding anyone in any creative department who uses a PC. Not gonna happen.

Even Microsoft's agencies of record flatly refuse to use them. Razorfish, CP+B, 72 & Sunny, Wexley School for Girls etc etc...all on Macs.

As a condition of them getting the account, MS told CP+B they had to use Windows machines. The agency was having none of it. So their excuse was "we're going to continue using Macs, and our measure of success will be when and if everyone here wants to use Windows."

True story. And that was over $100M in business they put at risk.

CMelton
Jul 15, 2012, 11:44 AM
The FBI switching to Macs was a story in Wired last year. Don't know if that applied to field agents.

Um. Yes. All real ad agencies use Macs. Good luck finding anyone in any creative department who uses a PC. Not gonna happen.

Even Microsoft's agencies of record flatly refuse to use them. Razorfish, CP+B, 72 & Sunny, Wexley School for Girls etc etc...all on Macs.

As a condition of them getting the account, MS told CP+B they had to use Windows machines. The agency was having none of it. So their excuse was "we're going to continue using Macs, and our measure of success will be when and if everyone here wants to use Windows."

True story. And that was over $100M in business they put at risk.

Speaking from experience you will find that whilst the creatives at ad agencies use Macs this does not mean they only use Macs. In addition to this your earlier comment stating that they all use laptops because no-one uses towers is preposterous. Some may use laptops when going to see clients, but the majority will use towers still for the raw power. especially for artworking of final designs along with complex 3D work.

charlituna
Jul 15, 2012, 11:59 AM
Probably not, actually. Government offices and corporations don't use Macs very much to begin with, and when they do they usually aren't portables. Assuming it just affects the RMBP, anyways.

Actually many of them do and yes it is more often portables.

That said, they don't likely need the power of the rMBP so wouldn't be buying that anyway. The places that would need and use it likely aren't bound by strict rules that take two years and 12 votes to change so not an issue.

e-coli
Jul 15, 2012, 12:02 PM
Speaking from experience you will find that whilst the creatives at ad agencies use Macs this does not mean they only use Macs. In addition to this your earlier comment stating that they all use laptops because no-one uses towers is preposterous. Some may use laptops when going to see clients, but the majority will use towers still for the raw power. especially for artworking of final designs along with complex 3D work.

Sure, there are still some towers sitting around creative departments for Art Directors. But they're being replaced with portables. Studio and pre-pro uses towers (I don't see that going away), but I haven't seen someone be given a tower that didn't already exist in a long time.

charlituna
Jul 15, 2012, 12:05 PM
I think this whole gluing the battery in thing is the worst idea Apple has ever had.

Batteries are consumable. They need to be replaced eventually. .

Being glued in doesn't mean they can't be replaced. Just means that not every yahoo can do it. Given the risks that come from the tiniest piercing of said batteries, it's actually a good thing that it is limited to trained staff with proper fire safes etc avail and not something your cousin Bubba can do in the kitchen for a 12 pack and a couple of blunts.

----------

Surely leaving the layer of glue out would help.

If you don't have glue you have to have a bracket or such to ensure that the battery doesn't come loose from the connectors.

steveh
Jul 15, 2012, 12:18 PM
What is apple thinking with the MBPR

No upgrade for ram,


True enough; it's a tradeoff to get smaller packaging and increased reliability.

Order the biggest capacity option.


No upgrade for the SSD


This is not true. *Apple* may not offer upgrades for SSD mass storage (just like they don't offer to upgrade physical hard drives), but the SSD is plugged in, not soldered, and third-party upgrades for MBA models already are on the market.


No replaceable battrie at all, and its glued in.


Not user-replaceable, replacement is available from Apple, if needed. Glued in or not, the service is available.

----------


This glue thing deserves to blow up in Apple's face.
Using glue is just poor engineering, it's not elegant and frankly undeserving of a (self proclaimed, no less) high end product.


Tell that to the aerospace industry. There are many applications where adhesives make more sense/work better than mechanical fasteners.

In Apple's case, it's a way to make a lighter, stiffer structure than would be possible with mechanical fasteners, given their necessary supporting structures.

There's more to (engineering) life than Elmer's glue.

Mal
Jul 15, 2012, 12:21 PM
So, what exactly is the replacement cost on a rMBP? My old Acer had a bad battery after 4 years of maltreatment and it was about $110 incl. shipping&handling. Is that in this price range, keeping in mind that it takes 5sec the remove it. The rMBP has it - as we know - glued to the shell, the track pad, and the cables. So, replacing all that for about $110? I doubt it. Not even mentioning that perfectly good parts will land in the trash...


Edit: It was the TravelMate 8000 2GHz which I payed about 4k Euro for. Was the top-of-the-line back then. It still works.

$199, and the parts don't get trashed, they go back to Apple for recycling. Unless the battery is damaged in such a way that it's unsafe to ship (in which case there are local disposal regulations), every battery from an Apple product which is replaced by an Apple Authorized Service Center or an Apple Store goes back to Apple and gets recycled. Can't say that about user-replaceable batteries, can you? That means that by not having user-replaceable batteries, Apple is insuring that close to 100% of them get recycled, while companies that let users replace batteries themselves can't guarantee that even one will be recycled (yes, some will, maybe even most, but far less than Apple's).

jW

ixodes
Jul 15, 2012, 12:21 PM
So much confusion. So much indecision.

And here we witness the chaos without Steve Jobs.

Get over it.

He's DEAD... as in NOT coming back, nor can you go back and change the past.

This is a fundamental truth.

All this sappy hero worship is so immature.

steveh
Jul 15, 2012, 12:21 PM
To some extent, what you are talking about has long been possible with desktops. Intel created a socket to enable switching processors.

And they regularly change the socket supported by various generations of processors....

ixodes
Jul 15, 2012, 12:25 PM
$199, and the parts don't get trashed, they go back to Apple for recycling. Unless the battery is damaged in such a way that it's unsafe to ship

I'm away from my laptop, so I don't have the link.

But I read where the problem is the glue holding the battery is so strong, that trying to remove the battery would destroy it causing further environmental exposure.

Therefore it cannot be recycled.

Other parts of the computer may qualify for recycling.

steveh
Jul 15, 2012, 12:26 PM
You don't need to use glue to have a thin tablet. You can still have 99% of the battery volume by using 3 teenie screws to keep it fixed. And having the battery be easily replaceable with a new one means the user will quickly make up for that 1% if/when the user decides to recycle the battery.

Except you can't replace that glue with "3 teenie screws", can you?

You need to add structure to attach those screws to, for starters, and in practice a containing structure to contain the battery within, etc etc etc.

Sometimes throwing out the brackets/etc and clean-sheeting a simpler chassis that provides more space for battery (providing more run time) with a bit of adhesive to give you a lighter, stiffer end product.

Pick the right adhesive, and you can remove the battery at need by heating or cooling, depending.

KPOM
Jul 15, 2012, 12:34 PM
I'm away from my laptop, so I don't have the link.

But I read where the problem is the glue holding the battery is so strong, that trying to remove the battery would destroy it causing further environmental exposure.

Therefore it cannot be recycled.

Other parts of the computer may qualify for recycling.

iFixit said they couldn't remove it. That doesn't mean that it can't be removed, just that iFixit couldn't figure out how to without puncturing the battery. Perhaps it needs to be heated to melt the glue.

Mal
Jul 15, 2012, 12:35 PM
I'm away from my laptop, so I don't have the link.

But I read where the problem is the glue holding the battery is so strong, that trying to remove the battery would destroy it causing further environmental exposure.

Therefore it cannot be recycled.

Other parts of the computer may qualify for recycling.

You read incorrectly (not your fault, the fault of the author of whatever you read). Apple and their recyclers can separate the battery and the case just fine, and they've stated that they will recycle the batteries (in fact, they're legally required to in some places). Just because iFixit and maybe some small local recycler couldn't figure it out doesn't mean that Apple doesn't already have the methods in place.

jW

charlituna
Jul 15, 2012, 12:47 PM
Btw it was reported (I thnk in Fortune) that Apple spends millions of dollars every year for their products to be part of this EPEAT listing. I'm sorry but tat seems a waste of money to me. Being environmentally responsible in terms of recycling and removing toxins from electronic devices is common sense. It's not like Apple would be dumping things in a landfill if EPEAT wasn't around.


100%. Apple hasn't stopped being aware of the environment. They just aren't letting this one group make their choices for them. In another 3 years, nothing Apple will be on the EPEAT list if the standard isnt changed and something tells me Apple won't care

Rocketman
Jul 15, 2012, 12:49 PM
The RMBP has EPEAT status right now and governments are ordering now. Even if the status is somehow revoked, we already know Apple will not cry in their soup over it. To revoke it over adhesive for a battery which can be reapplied on battery change seems a stretch and quite arbitrary. I would in no way rule that out considering it is competitors voting on the issue and until they have time to copy Apple they are likely to criticize it. These sorts of standards have a high degree of politics on the application of the otherwise somewhat rationally arrived at rules. Somewhat. There is politics in that as well.

Rocketman

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=15256172&postcount=161

charlituna
Jul 15, 2012, 12:50 PM
Very true and the times they do use Macs they're aren't going to buy the high end laptop.

If this were true then why the stink about being delisted. What would San Fran etc care about it since they don't use the computers in the first place

irobot2003
Jul 15, 2012, 01:01 PM
Probably not, actually. Government offices and corporations don't use Macs very much to begin with, and when they do they usually aren't portables. Assuming it just affects the RMBP, anyways.

I don't know about corporations these days, but in the federal government on the west coast (at least for my agency) Macs are in heavy use. At my site, Macs actually outnumber Wintel boxes. In the midwest, and on the east coast, it's a different story...

Rogifan
Jul 15, 2012, 01:22 PM
100%. Apple hasn't stopped being aware of the environment. They just aren't letting this one group make their choices for them. In another 3 years, nothing Apple will be on the EPEAT list if the standard isnt changed and something tells me Apple won't care
And Apple won't care if iFixit throws another hissyfit either. Apple employs designers and engineers that build stuff like this for a living. Somehow I doubt they all sat around in a meeting and said 'lets make the battery impossible to remove so 3 years from now people will have to replace their laptop with a new one'.

The rMBP got some of the best reviews, many calling it the best laptop Apple's ever built. Then iFixit 1/10 in repairability and suddenly everyone's trashing it. I just saw one review calling the retina display a "brilliant boondoggle", saying its not a product feature but a marketing one and that no one knew they wanted it until they saw it (wow imagine that, the average joe doesn't always know what's possible or what he/she wants until it's shown to them).

Oh and here's why there is no Ethernet port on the rMBP or MBA:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2012/07/dsc01985-copy.jpg

Myiphone7
Jul 15, 2012, 01:26 PM
I will turn to PC if Apple loses it's epeat status. Steve Jobs would be so angry if knew his company was willing to lose it's status to help the environment.

Disgusting.

mdelvecchio
Jul 15, 2012, 01:29 PM
I think this whole gluing the battery in thing is the worst idea Apple has ever had.

Batteries are consumable. They need to be replaced eventually. They contain toxic chemicals and need special handling for recycling.

nothing that you said prevents battery recycling in the rMBP. Apple will service and can recycle it. what's the issue?

you can't perform repairs on your car, but that doesn't mean it doesn't get service and repairs, does it?

Rocketman
Jul 15, 2012, 01:29 PM
saying its not a product feature but a marketing one and that no one knew they wanted it until they saw it (wow imagine that, the average joe doesn't always know what's possible or what he/she wants until it's shown to them).

Oh and here's why there is no Ethernet port on the rMBP or MBA:

Image (http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2012/07/dsc01985-copy.jpg)If the ethernet port were reduced to only the internal hole like the HDMI and USB ports on that image it would actually fit just fine.

Rocketman

ixodes
Jul 15, 2012, 01:31 PM
You read incorrectly (not your fault, the fault of the author of whatever you read). Apple and their recyclers can separate the battery and the case just fine, and they've stated that they will recycle the batteries (in fact, they're legally required to in some places). Just because iFixit and maybe some small local recycler couldn't figure it out doesn't mean that Apple doesn't already have the methods in place.

jW

It's encouraging to hear that Apple has a method. Hopefully when the time comes. Users will return to Apple for proper recycling.

I originally dismissed the idea of Apple doing the recycling, since that's something they'd usually advise us of since it's a controversial issue.

mdelvecchio
Jul 15, 2012, 01:36 PM
I also don't think that a "trained" Apple repair technician would be significantly better than the people at iFixIt.

what's with the scare quotes around trained By definition apple technicians are trained on things that people from third-party companies aren't...like the tricks for for removing and replacing the battery; which theyll do for a paltry 200 bucks.

macidiot
Jul 15, 2012, 02:31 PM
Do you know a better way to make a device as small as humanly possible with zero wasted space?

The Macbook Air battery is screwed in. Its thinner than the retina MBP. So there goes that theory.

dona83
Jul 15, 2012, 02:31 PM
Nah, what bothers people is that they don't have the cash to afford the Retina MBP. Battery for a 2006 MacBook costs $129. Lasts 300 charges. Battery for a Retina MBP costs $199. Lasts 1000 charges. With 7 hours vs. 4 hours per charge. Do the maths.

The battery in my Dell lasted less than 300 charges, costs $169, and I have take apart my laptop and do it myself.

I bought a 13" MBP of the same age, still has a battery that's 90% good.

mdelvecchio
Jul 15, 2012, 02:32 PM
The Macbook Air battery is screwed in. Its thinner than the retina MBP. So there goes that theory.

entirely different design. no retina display means less battery on an air. different design requirement.

doelcm82
Jul 15, 2012, 02:46 PM
I will turn to PC if Apple loses it's epeat status. Steve Jobs would be so angry if knew his company was willing to lose it's status to help the environment.

Disgusting.
So if Apple changes absolutely nothing, but keeps its epeat status, you'll stay with Apple?

If you are not happy with Apple's products, or with Apple as a company, not buying Apple products is the most powerful tool you have. But if your decision is based on whether a third party is happy with Apple or not, I'm not going to have any respect for you.

And neither would Steve Jobs.

Rogifan
Jul 15, 2012, 02:52 PM
I will turn to PC if Apple loses it's epeat status. Steve Jobs would be so angry if knew his company was willing to lose it's status to help the environment.

Disgusting.

How dumb. EPEAT isn't the definitive answer on the environment. If you believe that then I won't be sad to see you go to the world of PC crap.

doelcm82
Jul 15, 2012, 03:07 PM
Just curious what people use DVD drives on a laptop for these days? I can't remember the last time I used mine.

I use mine to rip DVDs and CDs. And I have bought software in the past year that came on a DVD.

That's why I bought an external optical drive with my new rMBP. The vast majority of the time, it stays safely in its box. When I upgrade to a newer model in a few years, I expect the external drive will also work with the new model.

macidiot
Jul 15, 2012, 03:09 PM
If the ethernet port were reduced to only the internal hole like the HDMI and USB ports on that image it would actually fit just fine.

Rocketman

Shh. Apple has declared ethernet useless and unnecessary! Apple designs are stunning, utterly perfect and flawless! Please do not introduce any facts and reality that contradict that. ;)

macidiot
Jul 15, 2012, 03:30 PM
entirely different design. no retina display means less battery on an air. different design requirement.

So what.

You are trying to refute facts with a non-relevant statement. The iPhone has a much smaller battery than the iPad which has a much smaller battery than the MBP. The MBP battery is bigger than the iPhone. So what.

That DOES NOT change the fact that the MBA, which has far less available internal space to begin with than the MBP, uses screws instead of glue to hold the battery in place. And ended up with a thinner design.

AGAIN, my point is that Apple can indeed make an ultrathin laptop and still use screws for the battery. As PROVEN by Apple with the Macbook Air. What part of that do you not understand?

I'm sorry that the simple fact that Apple itself makes a thinner laptop that uses screws to hold the battery in flies in the face of the "Apple had to use to glue to make it thin" theory.

I'm sorry, but I am really getting tired of all of the apologists and/or fanboys declaring the use of glue as the ONLY possible solution to get a thin laptop. And that it was the only way to do it. And that if you don't like it, tough, Apple doesn't care about you anyway. They only care about people that are utterly non-critical of their products, declaring each new product as the pinnacle of design and engineering. Until the next new Apple product. :rolleyes:

e-coli
Jul 15, 2012, 03:36 PM
I will turn to PC if Apple loses it's epeat status. Steve Jobs would be so angry if knew his company was willing to lose it's status to help the environment.

Disgusting.

Yeah because PCs have better environmental records.

Drama queens on this site. Sheesh. "I swear I'll turn to Windows if..." Just do it then (you won't). Stop telling everyone already.

doelcm82
Jul 15, 2012, 04:19 PM
Shh. Apple has declared ethernet useless and unnecessary! Apple designs are stunning, utterly perfect and flawless! Please do not introduce any facts and reality that contradict that. ;)

What apple has done is declare the ethernet port optional. They don't in any way stop you from using it. How did you miss that fact?

alfistas
Jul 15, 2012, 04:29 PM
Seems like Tim Cook probably found out about this just in time and kept the matter from snowballing. Unless it was his decision to begin with, in which case it seems he's learning. Either way, it's good to see the attempt. :apple:


I'm pretty sure the next revision of the rMBP will have a removable battery. This is the 2006 MBP debacle all over again...

----------

What apple has done is declare the ethernet port optional. They don't in any way stop you from using it. How did you miss that fact?

If that is the case then why have they not included the adapter in the box?

----------

Makes sense to me. No upgradability, means it gets tossed as soon as better performance is needed. I don't know about the rest of the world admitedly, but where I'm from recycling is almost unheard of and considered unnecessary and a waste of time. :rolleyes:

Yep! Sad but true...

applebook
Jul 15, 2012, 05:50 PM
Do you know a better way to make a device as small as humanly possible with zero wasted space?

Maybe no one needs a 17" notebook that is anorexic? I don't know about the rest of the world, but 1" thin is already enough for a desktop replacement. Apple's continual obsession with thinness is s waste.

----------

Makes sense to me. No upgradability, means it gets tossed as soon as better performance is needed. I don't know about the rest of the world admitedly, but where I'm from recycling is almost unheard of and considered unnecessary and a waste of time. :rolleyes:

To be fair, what is there to upgrade on modern laptops anyway besides the memory and storage? Apple's recent Snow Lion exclusion of pre-2008 Macs should be a clear message that the company believes an ultra modern computer should have only a 4-year lifespan.

You might want to try recycling a little bit though. It doesn't hurt.

Rodimus Prime
Jul 15, 2012, 06:13 PM
And Apple won't care if iFixit throws another hissyfit either. Apple employs designers and engineers that build stuff like this for a living. Somehow I doubt they all sat around in a meeting and said 'lets make the battery impossible to remove so 3 years from now people will have to replace their laptop with a new one'.

The rMBP got some of the best reviews, many calling it the best laptop Apple's ever built. Then iFixit 1/10 in repairability and suddenly everyone's trashing it. I just saw one review calling the retina display a "brilliant boondoggle", saying its not a product feature but a marketing one and that no one knew they wanted it until they saw it (wow imagine that, the average joe doesn't always know what's possible or what he/she wants until it's shown to them).

Oh and here's why there is no Ethernet port on the rMBP or MBA:

Image (http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2012/07/dsc01985-copy.jpg)

to be fair iFixit was dead on giving the rMBP a 1/10 for repairability. Lets see if anything breaks on it it would not be work repairing. Most of the major parts are soddered onto the MOBO itself making them impossible to repair and replace. It is a consumer grade product all the way to the core.

gnasher729
Jul 15, 2012, 06:15 PM
The Macbook Air battery is screwed in. Its thinner than the retina MBP. So there goes that theory.

I like your username.

The MacBook Air has a 45 Wh battery. The Retina MBP has a 95 Wh battery. Well, it would seem quite difficult to make a 45 Wh battery that isn't thinner than a 95 Wh battery, whether you use screws or glue. There goes your argument, dissolving in thin air.


to be fair iFixit was dead on giving the rMBP a 1/10 for repairability. Lets see if anything breaks on it it would not be work repairing. Most of the major parts are soddered onto the MOBO itself making them impossible to repair and replace. It is a consumer grade product all the way to the core.

1 out of 10 is the rating that you get for iFixit's ability to repair the MBP.


I will turn to PC if Apple loses it's epeat status. Steve Jobs would be so angry if knew his company was willing to lose it's status to help the environment.

Disgusting.

You could buy an Energy Star 5.2 compliant Dell laptop. If you can find one. Or come straight back to Apple.


Until USA enforces more recycling of e-waste to take place locally instead of the current practice of shipping e-waste to other third-world countries for 'reprocessing', programs like EPEAT are a waste of money and time.

Quite the opposite, actually. Some of EPEAT's rules are there to protect recyclers in third world countries. For example the rule about being able to take devices apart with commonly available tools. Apple uses a different strategy, taking all their products back that customers return (Apple measured that they receive 70% back, while Dell gets about 20%), and recycling it in the country where it is returned.

Rogifan
Jul 15, 2012, 07:26 PM
to be fair iFixit was dead on giving the rMBP a 1/10 for repairability. Lets see if anything breaks on it it would not be work repairing. Most of the major parts are soddered onto the MOBO itself making them impossible to repair and replace. It is a consumer grade product all the way to the core.

So? Apple is not going to make design decisions based on whining from iFixit. Or outdated standards from EPEAT.

Rodimus Prime
Jul 15, 2012, 07:33 PM
So? Apple is not going to make design decisions based on whining from iFixit. Or outdated standards from EPEAT.

no the point was people should not rip iFixIt for its rating because it was dead on. Apple is more or less completely exiting making professional grade products. They are nearly a 100% consumer grade company. Dont get me wrong they make grade high quality products but they are consumer grade.

fpsBeaTt
Jul 15, 2012, 08:50 PM
not an option for everyone

How so? If they can't physically reach an Apple store, Apple will arrange for a courier at no expense to yourself. Pretty sure it's an option for everyone that owns one.

Fortimir
Jul 15, 2012, 09:20 PM
I'm pretty sure the next revision of the rMBP will have a removable battery. This is the 2006 MBP debacle all over again...

I see no debacle here.

If that is the case then why have they not included the adapter in the box?

Because a LARGE number of users don't need it. Why spend the money? Really, if you're in the minority who needs it, $29 is nothing to complain about. I know I will never need to buy it. Most people who do probably only have one cable they ever plug into (at work usually), and you could just attach the dongle to the cable and leave it there anyway.

Yep! Sad but true...

This is just not based on reality. People don't throw away Macs. Most Macs see multiple owners during their life, and many Macs see one owner for a long time. The only place this matters is after many many years of use... and even then, you just send it to Apple and they send you a giftcard with the value of your salvage material.

doelcm82
Jul 15, 2012, 09:21 PM
If that is the case then why have they not included the adapter in the box?
Because It's optional. Like a printer or an external monitor (two of many things not included in the box).

innerpurpose1
Jul 15, 2012, 10:34 PM
good, now apple will rethink their planned obsolescence strategy and hopefully make products that can be upgraded..

terraphantm
Jul 15, 2012, 11:15 PM
nothing that you said prevents battery recycling in the rMBP. Apple will service and can recycle it. what's the issue?

you can't perform repairs on your car, but that doesn't mean it doesn't get service and repairs, does it?

But... You can DIY car repairs if you want to. You can't DIY anything on the rMBPs even of you are so inclined

tbrinkma
Jul 15, 2012, 11:27 PM
If the ethernet port were reduced to only the internal hole like the HDMI and USB ports on that image it would actually fit just fine.

Rocketman

:eek: If the ethernet port were reduced to only the internal hole, it wouldn't be an ethernet port. All of the contacts for an ethernet port are along the bottom edge of that hole. If you get rid of the bottom of the port, you lose the contacts along with it.

----------

But... You can DIY car repairs if you want to. You can't DIY anything on the rMBPs even of you are so inclined

And on most modern cars, those 'DIY' repairs are handled exactly the same way as most repairs on the rMBP will be. Get your hands on the replacement board/module, remove the old one, and replace it with the new one. That's an *easy* repair job for your 'average consumer'. (Of course, the 'average consumer' won't be making those repairs on his laptop, regardless of brand or model, any more than he makes those repairs on his car.)

festerfeet
Jul 15, 2012, 11:37 PM
A couple of things to bear in mind:

Ifixit's business model relies of upgradeable products so they have a commercial interest when a laptop can't be upgraded.

Robert Frisbee the current CEO of EPEAT stated that the standards needed updating last year.

On the front page of the EPEAT website (link and content below!

http://www.epeat.net/
An Open Letter from Robert Frisbee, EPEAT CEO

I am very happy to announce that all of Apple’s previously registered products, and a number of new products, are back on the EPEAT registry. Apple has joined us in addressing these events in a message on their website.

Our relationship with Apple is based on our natural alignment – as Apple drives innovation in product design, EPEAT drives innovation in standards design. EPEAT has pioneered voluntary standards, after-market verification, optional criteria and tiered product certification as ways to keep pace with a fast-paced industry.

We look forward to Apple’s strong and creative thoughts on ongoing standards development. The outcome must reward new directions for both design and sustainability, simultaneously supporting the environment and the market for all manufacturers’ elegant and high-performance products.

An interesting question for EPEAT is how to reward innovations that are not yet envisioned with standards that are fixed at a point in time. Diverse goals, optional points awarded for innovations not yet described, and flexibility within specified parameters to make this happen are all on the table in EPEAT stakeholder discussions. And of course, timely standards development, as with newly created Imaging Equipment and Television standards, and the current refresh of the PC/Display standard, is critical as well.

Answers to these questions support all our subscribers, and lead to mutual benefit for all our purchasers. And they led us to the path to our strengthened relationship with Apple.

The team at EPEAT offers its sincere thanks to the stakeholders whose strong support ensures EPEAT standards and system success, and to Apple for reaffirming their commitment to the EPEAT idea.

MH01
Jul 16, 2012, 03:58 AM
1 out of 10 is the rating that you get for iFixit's ability to repair the MBP.

I would say that the guys who have been pulling apart Apple products at iFixit would be more on the advanced/skilled side of the spectrum, the only one that might be able to repair on is MacGyver!!!! :rolleyes:

Mad-B-One
Jul 16, 2012, 09:27 AM
$199, and the parts don't get trashed, they go back to Apple for recycling. Unless the battery is damaged in such a way that it's unsafe to ship (in which case there are local disposal regulations), every battery from an Apple product which is replaced by an Apple Authorized Service Center or an Apple Store goes back to Apple and gets recycled. Can't say that about user-replaceable batteries, can you? That means that by not having user-replaceable batteries, Apple is insuring that close to 100% of them get recycled, while companies that let users replace batteries themselves can't guarantee that even one will be recycled (yes, some will, maybe even most, but far less than Apple's).

jW

Well, actually, I replaced it in Germany, and all vendors who sell electronic equipment and batteries have to take battries back and get them recycled. For free. Actually, not getting them recycled is a missdemeanor crime and you can get fined higher than racing by a school easily. Ever wondered about this on anything:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Green_dot_logo.svg/149px-Green_dot_logo.svg.png

This was on my battery. That means that the company pays for the recycling of the product and therefore, when you put the item into a recycling bin, it will happen one or the other way. (Talking about what recycling is, is a different subject) Now, with my battery, it was just plastig around (and a little rubber foot) - so, the recycling was basically just the battery. With the iMBP, that is another story as mentioned.

----------

I would say that the guys who have been pulling apart Apple products at iFixit would be more on the advanced/skilled side of the spectrum, the only one that might be able to repair on is MacGyver!!!! :rolleyes:

Yea, he just needs bubblegum and an old piece of wire. Waaaait a minute: That is exactly the same tools the "recycling centers" in India are using! That means they must be experts on MacGyver! :D

calderone
Jul 16, 2012, 09:34 AM
no the point was people should not rip iFixIt for its rating because it was dead on. Apple is more or less completely exiting making professional grade products. They are nearly a 100% consumer grade company. Dont get me wrong they make grade high quality products but they are consumer grade.

Can you define "consumer grade?" Just so we are all on the same page.

scottymorg
Jul 16, 2012, 09:41 AM
poor me :/
*face palm
gosh!

xStatiCa
Jul 16, 2012, 09:49 AM
A glued-in battery is barely forgiveable on a $500 iPad. On a $2000 laptop with a much bigger battery? It's preposterous.
And yet the general consumer crowd will buy them up ignorant of the issue. This is the biggest issue I have with apple. Batteries do have to be replaced within a few years to have a decent battery life. Apple knows this and it works to their advantage. People will think... oh my laptop doesn't work as good I need a new one... let me just go buy a new one.

To apple the sealed in battery equals more $$$ for them so they will never change from that unless they are forced to by consumer feedback(as if they would listen) or a standards body I suspect.

gnasher729
Jul 16, 2012, 09:50 AM
I would say that the guys who have been pulling apart Apple products at iFixit would be more on the advanced/skilled side of the spectrum, the only one that might be able to repair on is MacGyver!!!! :rolleyes:

They tried to pull off the glass cover from an LCD screen - without figuring out that the glass was not a cover, but an integral part of the screen. Doesn't take a genius to avoid that kind of affair.

And since Apple offers battery replacements for $199, I suppose these replacement won't be made by Apple Geniuses, but by the new Apple MacGyvers who will soon appear in every store. :D

xStatiCa
Jul 16, 2012, 09:54 AM
Do you know a better way to make a device as small as humanly possible with zero wasted space?
And that is the problem... Their goals are too far skewed to that goal no matter what they have to give up in serviceability.

Here is an idea... Don't make it small as humanly possible... make it small as humanly serviceable. So what if it is .05mm thicker if I can replace the damn battery I am all for it!

aristotle
Jul 16, 2012, 10:08 AM
A few thoughts.
1. A battery glued in is easy for a trained technician to remove with a heat gun. What do you think Apple does when they replace your battery?
2. An end user removable battery means that there is no guarantee that the old battery will be recycled properly either out of ignorance or laziness.

It seems to me that a battery with a longer lifespan and one that requires sending in the unit to be repaired by the manufacturer is actually better for the environment as you can be sure that the battery will be recycled properly and replacements have to be done less frequently.

Recyclers only need to add a heat gun to their arsenal to deal with glued in batteries. Problem solved.

PS. Apple hardware tends to have a much longer lifespan so that also contributes to a lower environmental impact than something that is more recyclable but more disposable as well since not everything in a computer can be recycled effectively. There will always be some e-waste.

Fortimir
Jul 16, 2012, 10:12 AM
So what if it is .05mm thicker if I can replace the damn battery I am all for it!

I think it comes down to the fact that it isn't "just" .05mm we're talking about to make that happen. There are a surprisingly large number of extra parts and extra space required for a removable battery system.

Trust me, I've never been a fan of non-user-replaceable batteries. I was one of the last hold-offs of everyone I knew moving from Creative to Apple for my music player years ago for that reason.

But it's just a different game now. The batteries are rated for a substantially longer life, and if you factor in the cost of the battery and the complexity to change it, the price is close to reasonable.

xStatiCa
Jul 16, 2012, 10:17 AM
I think it comes down to the fact that it isn't "just" .05mm we're talking about to make that happen.
I would not call that a fact. There are phones available with similar features that are not much thicker than what the iphone 4 is. I am sure apple could create one with a removable battery with only adding 0.5mm if they wanted to. You seem to be in defense mode instead of open to suggestions.

Fortimir
Jul 16, 2012, 10:28 AM
I would not call that a fact. There are phones available with similar features that are not much thicker than what the iphone 4 is. I am sure apple could create one with a removable battery with only adding 0.5mm if they wanted to. You seem to be in defense mode instead of open to suggestions.

Eh, I would admit I'm one of those people who is overjoyed by a 0.71" thick laptop, and I'm skeptical they could make it user-replaceable for a mere 0.05".

IF they could manage to do it, and keep the "solidness" of the build, I'd be all for it.

xStatiCa
Jul 16, 2012, 10:47 AM
First of all, Apple WILL replace the battery in the RMBP for $199. You don't need to throw away a $2200 computer when the battery no longer holds a charge.
The main problem is you will be without that computer for at least a week. Some people depend on their computers and others just would not want to be without them that long. I am in both camps. For those that have a few macbooks I am sure they could more easily cope with it. My laptop from my work can be swapped out with a new battery in seconds if one starts degrading. I am sure they would have issue with needing to send a laptop back to the manufacturer to replace a battery as well as the users would not like it.


The SSD is removable, and OWC has already created a replacement drive for the 2012 MacBook Air.

I have a 2009 macbook air and need more SSD space (I have 128gb) but I have not found any options to do the upgrade myself by buying my own 256gb SSD drive because of the connector they used directly on the SSD drive. Apple even forced one of the companies selling a kit to upgrade the SSD drive to stop making it.

It's a sea change, to be sure, and undoubtedly disappointing to many used to the days of ultra customizability and tweaking (prevalent from the 1980s through the 1990s), but for that's the direction of the entire industry.
I am hopeful that alternative products/platforms will always be available to at least let consumers know there is another way and to put pressure on Apple to at least stay somewhat more open minded to user serviceability issues.

KPOM
Jul 16, 2012, 10:52 AM
The main problem is you will be without that computer for at least a week. Some people depend on their computers and others just would not want to be without them that long. I am in both camps. For those that have a few macbooks I am sure they could more easily cope with it. My laptop from my work can be swapped out with a new battery in seconds if one starts degrading. I am sure they would have issue with needing to send a laptop back to the manufacturer to replace a battery as well as the users would not like it.

No, you wouldn't be without it for a week. They claim it will be within a day.




I have a 2009 macbook air and need more SSD space (I have 128gb) but I have not found any options to do the upgrade myself by buying my own 256gb SSD drive because of the connector they used directly on the SSD drive. Apple even forced one of the companies selling a kit to upgrade the SSD drive to stop making it.


They haven't forced OWC to stop selling their replacement parts. I think the issue with the other supplier was an existing contractual relationship.

Rodimus Prime
Jul 16, 2012, 11:01 AM
Can you define "consumer grade?" Just so we are all on the same page.

Not Enterprise ready. Not targeting business at all. For example HP eliteBooks and Dell latitudes are example of business grade computers. They also are aimed at that market.

xStatiCa
Jul 16, 2012, 11:12 AM
No, you wouldn't be without it for a week. They claim it will be within a day.
You are assuming the laptop is under warranty when the battery needs replacing. I have a 2009 macbook air that is about 85% of what it's new battery life was. I suspect within another year I will want to get a new battery for it. It will not be under warranty so the express shipping will not be available for it. Apple I am sure is well aware that batteries will need to be replaced for most normal high usage users after apple extended care is over. Not to mention I do want want to have to buy extended apple care just to protect the battery in case it did expire under an extended warranty.

ktappe
Jul 16, 2012, 11:41 AM
Of course batteries are consumables. Apple claims they've got a 5 year life
And they lie. My 18 month old MacBook Air is already down to only lasting 90 minutes on its battery. No way that thing's gonna go 5 years before I have to break down and get a new battery. :mad:

farmboy
Jul 16, 2012, 11:43 AM
You are assuming the laptop is under warranty when the battery needs replacing. I have a 2009 macbook air that is about 85% of what it's new battery life was. I suspect within another year I will want to get a new battery for it. It will not be under warranty so the express shipping will not be available for it. Apple I am sure is well aware that batteries will need to be replaced for most normal high usage users after apple extended care is over. Not to mention I do want want to have to buy extended apple care just to protect the battery in case it did expire under an extended warranty.

Yes, and if you were orbiting in the ISS you would have to wait months to get the Russians to come up and take your computer back. You're setting up pretty unusual circumstantial limitations. Next day shipping is available almost everywhere Fedex or UPS goes around the globe. I'm also curious as to how a battery that is 2.5 years old and at 85% will need to be replaced next year (at the outrageous cost of about $200).

ktappe
Jul 16, 2012, 12:09 PM
Apple uses a different strategy, taking all their products back that customers return (Apple measured that they receive 70% back, while Dell gets about 20%), and recycling it in the country where it is returned.

You incorrectly assume that all users take their old Macs back to Apple. I would venture a guess that only a minority do. And don't tell me "well, they should" because Apple doesn't (for example) pick up from Enterprise when we have a large pallet of computers to dispose of. We have to use 3rd party. And all of a sudden the difficulty of disassembling a MacBook falls on someone other than Apple. Thus they need to be easily recyclable.

calderone
Jul 16, 2012, 12:59 PM
Not Enterprise ready. Not targeting business at all. For example HP eliteBooks and Dell latitudes are example of business grade computers. They also are aimed at that market.

Does the intended market necessarily disqualify a product from being "enterprise ready?"

Not trying to pick a fight, but there is a distinction between the intended markets and the markets in which a product can be used.

Poisednoise
Jul 16, 2012, 01:04 PM
You incorrectly assume that all users take their old Macs back to Apple. I would venture a guess that only a minority do. And don't tell me "well, they should" because Apple doesn't (for example) pick up from Enterprise when we have a large pallet of computers to dispose of. We have to use 3rd party. And all of a sudden the difficulty of disassembling a MacBook falls on someone other than Apple. Thus they need to be easily recyclable.

To be fair to Gnasher, he did not assume that. He assumed that 70% took their old Macs back to Apple, because that's the figure he quoted, via Apple themselves. Given the publicity this story is getting, one can hope that the figure of 70% will increase over time. It's certainly a majority, regardless.

Rodimus Prime
Jul 16, 2012, 01:04 PM
Does the intended market necessarily disqualify a product from being "enterprise ready?"

Not trying to pick a fight, but there is a distinction between the intended markets and the markets in which a product can be used.

There are a lot of requirements to be enterprise grade. One for example is to have easily replaceable parts. Like the Hard drive should be easy to pull out and pop in another computer. Quick replacement for ram and mobos. It should be quick and easy to do on site. No requirement to go threw Apple to do it.

The down time for the computer is way to high of a cost to go threw Apple. Apple is far from an enterprise grade company.

Pompiliu
Jul 16, 2012, 01:10 PM
i don't know about the rest of the world admitedly, but where i'm from recycling is almost unheard of and considered unnecessary and a waste of time. :rolleyes:
+1.

calderone
Jul 16, 2012, 01:16 PM
There are a lot of requirements to be enterprise grade. One for example is to have easily replaceable parts. Like the Hard drive should be easy to pull out and pop in another computer. Quick replacement for ram and mobos. It should be quick and easy to do on site. No requirement to go threw Apple to do it.

The down time for the computer is way to high of a cost to go threw Apple. Apple is far from an enterprise grade company.

While I don't disagree, not all enterprises have this requirement. Those that do (that have Macs in sufficient quantities) have self service agreements with Apple to get parts, etc.

Rodimus Prime
Jul 16, 2012, 01:40 PM
While I don't disagree, not all enterprises have this requirement. Those that do (that have Macs in sufficient quantities) have self service agreements with Apple to get parts, etc.

yeah but the order is insane. Apple enterprise support is pretty bad. It cost more for less and slower service plan and simple.
If you look at HP eliteBook, a Thinkpad or dell latiditude as example of enterprise grade laptops.

calderone
Jul 16, 2012, 02:18 PM
yeah but the order is insane. Apple enterprise support is pretty bad. It cost more for less and slower service plan and simple.
If you look at HP eliteBook, a Thinkpad or dell latiditude as example of enterprise grade laptops.

Self-service doesn't require interaction directly with Apple. You diagnose, place the part order and send the old one back. This really is no different than Dell, or similar. Meaning, if you want to abide by the support agreements you have, you can't slap in off the shelf parts and expect reimbursement.

In those regards, there is really no difference. Enterprises (with good staff) have plans in place for hardware failure to get the end-user back up and running and deal with the repair/replacement behind the scenes. Most companies aren't holding up the user as they wait for parts.

I am not saying Apple is doing a great job on the Enterprise front (I think they are not), but your examples ignore what happens in the real world.

Rodimus Prime
Jul 16, 2012, 02:22 PM
Self-service doesn't require interaction directly with Apple. You diagnose, place the part order and send the old one back. This really is no different than Dell, or similar. Meaning, if you want to abide by the support agreements you have, you can't slap in off the shelf parts and expect reimbursement.

In those regards, there is really no difference. Enterprises (with good staff) have plans in place for hardware failure to get the end-user back up and running and deal with the repair/replacement behind the scenes. Most companies aren't holding up the user as they wait for parts.

I am not saying Apple is doing a great job on the Enterprise front (I think they are not), but your examples ignore what happens in the real world.

Problem is if you are a medium size shop kind of hard to get those parts.

Also for the example of rMBP far from enterprise grade. In the real world often times hard drives get flipped between computers if a some other part fails. No point to loose all that data. That or they pull the hard drive and plug it in elseware to at least pull the data off of it.

Can not do with rMBP. That hard drive and ram replaceable are key factors.

calderone
Jul 16, 2012, 02:29 PM
Problem is if you are a medium size shop kind of hard to get those parts.

Also for the example of rMBP far from enterprise grade. In the real world often times hard drives get flipped between computers if a some other part fails. No point to loose all that data. That or they pull the hard drive and plug it in elseware to at least pull the data off of it.

Can not do with rMBP. That hard drive and ram replaceable are key factors.

Like I said, any shop can get the parts through Apple. You just have to: Have a Apple Hardware certified individual and apply for the account.

Drives do indeed get flipped. If you speaking of situations where: User machine fails, pull hard drive out, place in comparable machine. This is most assuredly possible with the retina as well.

User has rMBP, something fails, pull the drive out of the rMBP place in another rMBP. Now this doesn't work across models naturally, but the basic premise is there and generally with Mac OS you don't want to flop OS installations between different models anyhow.

Pulling data off is obviously troublesome, but doable assuming we aren;t talking a drive failure.

Rodimus Prime
Jul 16, 2012, 02:34 PM
Like I said, any shop can get the parts through Apple. You just have to: Have a Apple Hardware certified individual and apply for the account.

Drives do indeed get flipped. If you speaking of situations where: User machine fails, pull hard drive out, place in comparable machine. This is most assuredly possible with the retina as well.

User has rMBP, something fails, pull the drive out of the rMBP place in another rMBP. Now this doesn't work across models naturally, but the basic premise is there and generally with Mac OS you don't want to flop OS installations between different models anyhow.

Pulling data off is obviously troublesome, but doable assuming we aren;t talking a drive failure.

umm just going to point out that the rMBP hard drive is soldered to the MOBO. Everything is soldered to the MOBO making it impossible to pull out and replace with out a complete new MOBO.

gnasher729
Jul 16, 2012, 02:58 PM
To be fair to Gnasher, he did not assume that. He assumed that 70% took their old Macs back to Apple, because that's the figure he quoted, via Apple themselves. Given the publicity this story is getting, one can hope that the figure of 70% will increase over time. It's certainly a majority, regardless.

The 70% is an estimate. It can only be an estimate, because all that Apple knows is how much they sold, and how much they are receiving back, but not how many Macs are still in use, how many are in someone's home not turned on, and how many have been dumped. Apple uses the same method that Dell and HP use, and these both estimate 20% of returns.

You incorrectly assume that all users take their old Macs back to Apple. I would venture a guess that only a minority do. And don't tell me "well, they should" because Apple doesn't (for example) pick up from Enterprise when we have a large pallet of computers to dispose of. We have to use 3rd party. And all of a sudden the difficulty of disassembling a MacBook falls on someone other than Apple. Thus they need to be easily recyclable.

I'm not assuming anything at all. 70% is the number that Apple publishes on their website. So if you want to accuse someone, don't accuse me of making assumptions, you'll have to accuse Apple of lying. Are you saying that? Are you saying that Apple is lying?

umm just going to point out that the rMBP hard drive is soldered to the MOBO. Everything is soldered to the MOBO making it impossible to pull out and replace with out a complete new MOBO.

I'll hereby downvote you by -10 for spreading misinformation. The hard drive is _not_ soldered in.

xStatiCa
Jul 16, 2012, 03:02 PM
umm just going to point out that the rMBP hard drive is soldered to the MOBO. Everything is soldered to the MOBO making it impossible to pull out and replace with out a complete new MOBO.
The rMBP SSD drive is not soldered to the motherboard. It is proprietary though so you are not going to order a new one through newegg.

http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Retina-Display-Mid-2012-Teardown/9462/2 (step 10 on that page)

I imagine 100 years from now we will just be 3d printing the entire devices in one shot with no changeable parts possible. We will be certainly screwed at that point when it comes to servicing them.

calderone
Jul 16, 2012, 03:07 PM
umm just going to point out that the rMBP hard drive is soldered to the MOBO. Everything is soldered to the MOBO making it impossible to pull out and replace with out a complete new MOBO.

Now that is pretty funny.

Mal
Jul 16, 2012, 03:33 PM
Now that is pretty funny.

It's not funny, and it's not true. It's just like the SSD in the MacBook Air, just with a newer connector, and is removable and replaceable (not by the user, officially, but neither was the MacBook Air's SSD).

jW

calderone
Jul 16, 2012, 03:46 PM
It's not funny, and it's not true. It's just like the SSD in the MacBook Air, just with a newer connector, and is removable and replaceable (not by the user, officially, but neither was the MacBook Air's SSD).

jW

If you read the rest of my posts (within this page) it would be clear that I am aware of this fact. Thanks though.

ixodes
Jul 16, 2012, 03:52 PM
It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

In their move to retina displays on both the iPad and rMBP, Apple has chosen a technology that seems to be 70%* (or more) less energy efficient than its predecessor (*based on the increase in battery size on the iPad 3).

While retina is a great new feature, this move is absolutely not environmentally friendly in any way. I expect that Apple removed their devices from EPEAT just to avoid negative publicity here. I expect Apple's own EPEAT ratings to be downgraded when they're audited.
I do believe you are 100% correct.

If the Retina MBP does lose their EPEAT status, that would actually be the most appropriate move so as to not mislead people that don't know any better.

Being honest is always the right thing to do, as hard as it is for Apple to reveal truths about their operation.

Sleight of hand, a game Apple plays so masterfully, is no longer serving them well.

Mal
Jul 16, 2012, 04:19 PM
If you read the rest of my posts (within this page) it would be clear that I am aware of this fact. Thanks though.

Heh, sorry. Wasn't paying enough attention.

jW

MNT
Jul 16, 2012, 05:14 PM
You incorrectly assume that all users take their old And don't tell me "well, they should" because Apple doesn't (for example) pick up from Enterprise when we have a large pallet of computers to dispose of. We have to use 3rd party. And all of a sudden the difficulty of disassembling a MacBook falls on someone other than Apple. Thus they need to be easily recyclable.

I don't know what part of the world you're in, but at least in the United States, that's exactly what they do for our business (free pickups of single or bulk machines). They also give us cash money for the machines as opposed to Apple Store credit, which is all consumers can get from Apple. Apple recycles 100% of our company owned machines, including Windows PCs.

alfistas
Jul 16, 2012, 06:24 PM
I see no debacle here.

The 2006 MBP lacked a FW800 port - Apple said they were dropping support for mid/low range products. - People complained as USB2 was not fast enough - A few months later Apple released a revised version of the MBP WITH FW800. Those with the original MBP were left hanging...

The truth is, I have no idea whether Apple will change the current battery configuration. I can't really grasp why they did it in the first place. What I do know though is that the battery will have to be replaced at some point after the first 2 years of use. Un-gluewing a LiPo Battery is VERY dangerous. A simple rapture in its casing will most probably cause an EXPLOSION...

I suggest we revisit this topic in 2-3 years? I'd be very interested to know how they actually replace them. If they do at all...

Because a LARGE number of users don't need it. Why spend the money? Really, if you're in the minority who needs it, $29 is nothing to complain about. I know I will never need to buy it. Most people who do probably only have one cable they ever plug into (at work usually), and you could just attach the dongle to the cable and leave it there anyway.

That may be true for simple home/internet use. When it comes to actual work though you'll need the extra throughput. I'd like to see how a designer would share multiple renders or cad files with his team through wifi. We tried it at the office last year only to experience a HUGE slowdown!

So yeah Apple doesn't seem to care about us all that much, or they would have included the dongle in the box.


This is just not based on reality. People don't throw away Macs. Most Macs see multiple owners during their life, and many Macs see one owner for a long time. The only place this matters is after many many years of use... and even then, you just send it to Apple and they send you a giftcard with the value of your salvage material.

Reality is what your bank account makes it. Also Apple drops support for anything 4 years or older so you kinda have to upgrade anyway.

bedifferent
Jul 16, 2012, 07:23 PM
The rMBP SSD drive is not soldered to the motherboard. It is proprietary though so you are not going to order a new one through newegg.

http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Retina-Display-Mid-2012-Teardown/9462/2 (step 10 on that page)

I imagine 100 years from now we will just be 3d printing the entire devices in one shot with no changeable parts possible. We will be certainly screwed at that point when it comes to servicing them.

Course, cause Apple wants you to spend 3x the $$$ on RAM and SSD's. Even when I worked behind the bar years ago, all of us told our clients to go to Crucial or some other third party vendor for their PowerMac RAM.

Now, not so much.

(I have a feeling Apple may be delaying the next Mac Pro in order to find a way to make it less user upgradeable, forcing people to buy Apple parts in a BTO system that are soldered in lol)

SkyBell
Jul 17, 2012, 11:32 AM
Ah, yes, the american. This is for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16K6m3Ua2nw

I love a lot of the USA's geography, but that's about it as far as things I like about it goes.

Wow, you must be too rich and wasteful to boot.

When the rMBP is no longer what you want then:

1) Pass it along in your family or friends. Someone will love to have it.

2) Sell it. It will still be worth a lot of money and that will help pay for your next toy.

Oh, wait, you're rich and wasteful so you'll just throw it away because you have money to burn.

Where are you from? Mars?

You scare me... :apple:

Don't toss it for a better one, hand it down. Recycling 101, done.
Maybe I need to work on how I use my words, but seriously guys? How did you honestly take my post as a representation of my own opinions? You'll notice I said nothing about myself, just that in the part of the world where I live, that is the general consensus of most of the surrounding population. (Southern/Southwest U.S, depending on your definition)

I highly support reuse and recycle. I still use an eMac as my main machine for crying out loud. :rolleyes: I was simply stating that there are many willfully ignorant people that do not understand the importance of such things, and dismiss them entirely.

More sense made?

edddeduck
Jul 17, 2012, 12:13 PM
So much confusion. So much indecision.

And here we witness the chaos without Steve Jobs.

Yeah just like the issue with the iPhone 4 antenna, if only Jobs had been around for that... Oh wait...

numlock
Jul 17, 2012, 03:26 PM
They also give out free pre-paid shipping labels...

Really? Who can't fill-out a form on-line, wait for the box to be hand delivered to their door, then put their unwanted decade old computer into that box, call the number on the box, and then leave it the box in front of their door for pick up?

(I mean I can see some people have difficultly with that, but I'm talking someone whom IS able to take their unwanted computer to a conventional computer recycler and pay any required fee.)

How so? If they can't physically reach an Apple store, Apple will arrange for a courier at no expense to yourself. Pretty sure it's an option for everyone that owns one.


apple only ships the pre paid shipping labels/boxes domestically so there is no option for someone like me. i just called them to confirm it for you guys.

i guess its understandable since apple is a rather small company.

Pivs
Jul 17, 2012, 05:06 PM
apple only ships the pre paid shipping labels/boxes domestically so there is no option for someone like me. i just called them to confirm it for you guys.

i guess its understandable since apple is a rather small company.

Did not know that. Touche. Apple should then make it easier for everyone to recycle old hardware. I still don't think that most people are going to go to the trouble of taking apart old hardware to recycle even if they have the ability to. Does suck though for the select few out there that do want to go to the trouble of helping the environment.

fpsBeaTt
Jul 17, 2012, 05:13 PM
apple only ships the pre paid shipping labels/boxes domestically so there is no option for someone like me. i just called them to confirm it for you guys.

i guess its understandable since apple is a rather small company.

So, you're saying there's no Apple store in the country you happen to be in, either physical or electronic? Kind of hard to believe.

fpsBeaTt
Jul 17, 2012, 06:17 PM
I love a lot of the USA's geography, but that's about it as far as things I like about it goes.

I was simply stating that there are many willfully ignorant people that do not understand the importance of such things, and dismiss them entirely.

From the first part of your comment, you are as described by the second part of your comment. You have so much to be greatful for in the US (and I say this as an Australian); it has issues like every country and is going through a rough period, but overall it's one of the very best (in many areas the absolute best, especially its constitution and Bill of Rights).

djsound
Jul 17, 2012, 07:13 PM
What is apple thinking with the MBPR

No upgrade for ram,
No upgrade for the SSD
No replaceable battrie at all, and its glued in.

What the hell.

What if the macintosh was never made, Would 1984 been like what the book said?

Guess, I should go read it.

You know I thought apple was about creativity and choice and stuff like that,

Where is the choice? The choice of parts and such? I think to be honest my next computer is a pc running OSX


you can't add more ram in later if you want?

AidenShaw
Jul 17, 2012, 07:37 PM
you can't add more ram in later if you want?

No you cannot, it has no SO-DIMM slots. The memory is soldered to the motherboard.

djsound
Jul 17, 2012, 07:43 PM
No you cannot, it has no SO-DIMM slots. The memory is soldered to the motherboard.

wow thats lame. I guess I'll have to put int he extra $200 when I get mine =)

charlituna
Jul 22, 2012, 11:26 AM
And Apple won't care if iFixit throws another hissyfit either.

Given that Apple doesn't want Joe Smith opening his own stuff, screwing it up, and then coming like a douche to demand a replacement, they probably love it when iFixIt has a fit. Icing on the cake, like when an iOS bug fix f's up a jailbreak. They don't likely design for such breaks but don't turn down when they happen

charlituna
Jul 22, 2012, 12:04 PM
I will turn to PC if Apple loses it's epeat status. Steve Jobs would be so angry if knew his company was willing to lose it's status to help the environment.

Disgusting.

You do understand that this move started with the MacBook Air which Steve helped design, as well as the iPad etc.

EPEAT is one standard and lacking it hardly means Apple isn't going to keep up their other standards.

----------


I'm sorry that the simple fact that Apple itself makes a thinner laptop that uses screws to hold the battery in flies in the face of the "Apple had to use to glue to make it thin" theory.


Okay you don't like that theory. How about this one. Apple wanted to make a thin, stable and safe laptop. Brackets and screws can come loose. Especially when you are dragging the unit around on trips all the time and jogging the unit around. Screw comes loose, bracket loosens, battery comes loose from connectors and you have power failures. No good. Or worse, battery bangs around and is punctured and you have an explosive event. Same if the screw rattles around inside. We've seen it happen and proven as such with an iPhone. Much bigger battery in a laptop means much more lithium etc to explode.

So to achieve all possible goals Apple felt gluing was the best choice. Don't like it, don't buy. I'm sure Intel will have a no glue used, listed on EPEAT high def screen ultra book out for you soon

----------

no the point was people should not rip iFixIt for its rating because it was dead on. Apple is more or less completely exiting making professional grade products. They are nearly a 100% consumer grade company. Dont get me wrong they make grade high quality products but they are consumer grade.

IFixIt rates how well they can repair it or teach you too. Doesn't really reflect how well the manufacturer can repair it.

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good, now apple will rethink their planned obsolescence strategy and hopefully make products that can be upgraded..

You act like no one else does this. You really think that Dell etc are making their machines to last the next 20 years. And what about all these Android OEMs that give you zero upgrades on your software. That is totally about forcing you to buy new hardware.

----------

There are a lot of requirements to be enterprise grade. One for example is to have easily replaceable parts. Like the Hard drive should be easy to pull out and pop in another computer. Quick replacement for ram and mobos. It should be quick and easy to do on site. No requirement to go threw Apple to do it.
.

Such requirements are starting to die out, particularly as more and more places are switching to tablets and smartphones plus 'cloud' storage arrangements.