where is bttm in these political threads?

[jefhatfield]

during the early days of macrumors, or when macrumors became political in the then "general discussions" section, backtothemac used to hold the conservative point of view

but in the last few threads that have come up concerning politics, there has been almost nothing from bttm

besides mcrain and me from the past, there are plenty of new liberals or moderate liberals on the boards fighting mainly against ovi

come on, conservatives, speak up and make this of a more balanced debate or i will have to take up the conservative side (playing devil's advocate) just to make it sound like a fair fight on macrumors

it is macrumors.com, not liberalmacrumors.com?;)

[job]

I'm conservative and usually side with Ovi in these debates.

I just have not had the time to spend right now.

Side note: I would think most users of Macs are liberal...

Think Different and all... :rolleyes:

[jefhatfield]

i know you are not a standard liberal, but i did not know you were a conservative

i thought ovi was all alone in high conservative post counts like bttm was in the old days:D

when i was a kid, i was a nixon and ford fan but too young to vote...in my early childhood years, didn't care and kennedy and johnson ran the show

when reagan came along vs. mondale i didn't have a preference

in 1988, i didn't like bush or dukakis that much so i only voted the issues of the time...but i voted more liberal issues than conservative ones

but by 1992, i was a true blue democrat and have been these last ten years

yes, i am old and will be forty 12 months from now...yikes;)

[Sun Baked]

I've been staying out of the political threads to avoid having to say ...

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
I've been staying out of the political threads to avoid having to say ...


i hope you voted:D

[Sun Baked]

The political spats here have at times made one want to even avoid listening to these idiots much less vote for any of them.

About the only high point was when Sheriff Joe arrested Joe Arizona the opposing spokesman for the Indian Gambling Propopoop 20x on Halloween.

[job]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
i know you are not a standard liberal, but i did not know you were a conservative

I'm sort of an odd-ball conservative...

I accepting of others and I don't always agree with whatever the Republican Party and/or Bush has to say or wants to do.

In that respect, I'm also not a far left, extremist liberal and was quite pleased when I saw the election results from Nov. 5th.

I'm more moderate than any other conservative I know...


Read if you will, the first page of the "is the american public losing confidence in bush" thread where Taft and I debated America's foreign policy. I think you will see that I'm not one of the far right "American can do no wrong" type of people. But I still see myself as moderatly conservative.

[jelloshotsrule]

some of the posts i see make me sick. i just can't think of anything better to say than that.... so i leave it up to the smart people like: taft, mcrain, and smartass alex.

as well as many others i didn't mention.

[Mr. Anderson]

I avoid the political threads most of the time, but I to have noticed b2tm hasn't been around all that often lately. I'm thinking work has him too busy and when he gets home he's got his family. Its hard to put MR as a priority in that case, but his input is missed.

I have seen him around here recently, but he hasn't posted much.

D

[Amadeus]

I voted Bush 2000. I'm not sure if I'm happy with my vote, but I think Bush is doing a good job.

I'd argue for the conservative side if I thought I could compete, but thus far, I have agreed with the political goings on here on Macrumors.

I voted for Bush because of the 3rd presidential debate. I got stoned and watched it (probably a rare situation: to get stoned and vote Republican).

But, I couldn't believe how unrealistic Gore was-- especially when it came to education policy. Alright Gore, you go ahead and try to find 100,000 new skilled teachers given the same wages --- I dare you to try. It would have ruined our system (more idiot teachers...as if we don't have enough...). I suggest we try out school vouchers-- help the smart kids, help the ones that work hard. This is pure Darwinism. While Gore may have been the smarter man, he was definitely not in the game politically.

I also liked Bush's personalitiy -- his handling of the Iraq situation is a good example. While the media blasts him, and I second guess him, he seems to know what he is doing.... or, at least, he knows how to manipulate the American people. That is a politician's job. The UN just passed an amazing resolution requiring Iraq to submit to "our" will. If Iraq doesnt comply, we still have the "power" to do what we please without too much UN red tape... that is simply brilliant. We get what we want, either way.

No, I don't want war, so we will give peace a chance... if it doesn't work, then we must act. It seems to me that Bush has thought this from the beginning but used harsh tactics to make Sadam and other leaders believe that he was serious about war from the beginning. He was serious about war, but his war-rhetoric was really a clever way to manipulate global opinion.

Most people don't give enough credit to Bush. He doesn't speak intelligently, and he appears to make many political blunders (Iraq and Enron). However, you must examine how these situations are turning out. Look who will be laughing last... it will be Bush (Iraq will submit or be destroyed and the stock market is on the rebound). This guy is cunning and witty, and does represent the American people.

I don't think that's why I voted for him, but it has been his brightest characteristic. I voted for him because I thought he was a better politician than Gore -- more capable of compromise and better suited to command a nation of idiots.

No offense America, but most of you are blind and ignorant to the political chess game and to the spin game.

I would have rather voted for Nader, but I just didn't see him as a capable president. Although he had good ideas, I just didn't believe that his ideas and attitude would work well with today's presidency: media, photo ops, and the like. These things are required. If Nader were president, we would be an isolation nation who focused only on ourselves... everyone knows that we cannot do this. Not only do the American people care too much, but the world depends on us too much to prioritze campaign finance reform and balanced budgets before world peace. What a stupid concept. How conceited can we get??!

There's my thoughts... I'd be more than willing to aruge conservative if the right argument came up... otherwise, I'll stick with the liberal crowd.

- Amadeus

[Abercrombieboy]

Originally posted by hitman
I'm conservative and usually side with Ovi in these debates.

I just have not had the time to spend right now.

Side note: I would think most users of Macs are liberal...

Think Different and all... :rolleyes:

I think it would be a fair statement to say there is a higher % of liberal people who use Macs then conservative people. Just look where Macs are popular, public schools, art studios, journalism, music studios, movie studios, and on and on. They are the choice of artistic people which in general is a more liberal population. I mean really can you see John Assssscroft using a Mac???

I remember when all the Republicans thought it was SO BAD that the Clinton Admin was going after Microsoft. They don't have to worry about it now, because the Bush Admin. will give Microsoft everything it needs to continue its domination and grow. I am suprised that issue never comes up.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy


I think it would be a fair statement to say there is a higher % of liberal people who use Macs then conservative people. Just look where Macs are popular, public schools, art studios, journalism, music studios, movie studios, and on and on. They are the choice of artistic people which in general is a more liberal population. I mean really can you see John Assssscroft using a Mac???

I remember when all the Republicans thought it was SO BAD that the Clinton Admin was going after Microsoft. They don't have to worry about it now, because the Bush Admin. will give Microsoft everything it needs to continue its domination and grow. I am suprised that issue never comes up.

on the west coast in bg's district/state, uncle bill has both sides locked up

gee, i wonder how he did that:p

but i agree that mac users tend to be liberals...but then again, i live in northern california so that does not say too much ;)

[Abercrombieboy]

http://www.wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,52175,00.html

This talks about who uses Macs on Capital Hill, not many anymore it sounds.

[Ovi]

11

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Ovi


most conservatives are actually reading books or working. the fun part is that I can debate several liberals at once since it is so easy. the support from hitman is much appreciated. i know i am a minority here but a majority since nov5:D

not in your own state, though;)

[jelloshotsrule]

jeez, you make "conservatives" and "liberals" sound like gangs or something.

glad to see it makes you feel tough to "belong".

and yeah, conservatives are off reading whereas liberals are doing hooked on phonics. after all, making broad generalizations and being condescending is very intelligent and mature.

[Ovi]

11

[jelloshotsrule]

conservatives are brainless freaks who only care about oil and feeding their own pockets.

i'll say it now so i don't have to say it after you react: "relax"


and for the record, the above statement is the exact thing that makes me ill. people taking any general group of people and lumping them all together in some derogatory way. backtothemac is a conservative, but with his thoughtful discussions on the topic, i see where he is coming from and why he feels certain ways. alex is more on the liberal side (not tryin to pigeonhole anyone. ;) ) and seeing him as the utter prick he is has led me to understand where he's coming from... haha. no. my point is that people are more than who they vote for. and if you don't see that, it's sad.

[Backtothemac]

Man, I did not know that you missed me so much ;)

I have been working non-stop, and then like Duke said, when I get home I have family. But, here is a topic for you. Look at the Alabama Govenors race. Unreal. Can a Democrat politcian not just accept defeat? The North Dakota race was even closer than the Alabama race, and the Republican accepted defeat. Gore, could not. Our much hated Attorney General did accept his narrow defeat even when there was massive problems in the election.

I don't get it. Our govenor lost by over 3,000 votes, and cannot accept it, and now like a cry baby is wanting a recount, and then a recount, and then a recount, and then......

Just stiring up the flames ;)

[Abercrombieboy]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Man, I did not know that you missed me so much ;)

I have been working non-stop, and then like Duke said, when I get home I have family. But, here is a topic for you. Look at the Alabama Govenors race. Unreal. Can a Democrat politcian not just accept defeat? The North Dakota race was even closer than the Alabama race, and the Republican accepted defeat. Gore, could not. Our much hated Attorney General did accept his narrow defeat even when there was massive problems in the election.

I don't get it. Our govenor lost by over 3,000 votes, and cannot accept it, and now like a cry baby is wanting a recount, and then a recount, and then a recount, and then......

Just stiring up the flames ;)

It was South Dakota not North Dakota....grrrrrr.....why does everyone always mess that up! South Dakota is so windy because Nebraska blows and North Dakota sucks as they say here...That is not bad though...I have met people from the south that thought South Dakota was near South Carolina...I guess from the South thing...anyhow just giving you a hard time...

[jefhatfield]

glad to see you back. bttm!!!

i just reprimanded ovi for expousing some nazi, master race pundit ;)

it's ok to present right wing views but does that mean i, as a liberal, should bring out karl marx to try and defend clinton:p ;) :D

ok, now on the subject...i thought the south was really solidly republican...how could a race in the south in your state and others be so close?

i think it may be that the south, or most of its moderate voters, are starting to swing back towards the democrats

i could not imagine any close races just two years ago when the GOP slaughtered the democrats

in my state which is liberal, on paper, is in a swing towards the middle and simon, the GOP, candidate, lost by six points

he was twnety points behind just weeks ago and if the election were held next month, he might have won

it's so funny how the political pendulum swings in every state

[MacBandit]

I use to call my self conservative but I have backed down to independant. You might ask why. The reason is I am very upset with Bush. I voted for him and now I'm sorry I did.

I am not saying that as an independant I would ever vote for a liberal because I won't. They want to make the world into one big padded room to protect everyone from themselves and I don't feel that that is right. What I am saying though is that when I vote now I don't vote for the blatant conservative because he is the most likely candidate that I could vote for to and win. I vote for the person I want in office now. Some would say I'm throwing away my vote. I say that if everyone voted with there voice then they wouldn't be throwing away there vote.

I have been totally avoiding political discussion threads for a few reasons. I got into a few when I first started here and they really got me worked up and upset. The other reason is the guy I work with is what we call a liberal with a gun. He claims to be conservative but more often then not his views whether he likes it or not are more liberal. Oh and he is a gun nut. I don't have a problem with guns I too am a gun owner but not in the sense that I am a collector. The only problem I have with people who are huge gun nuts is when there life revolves around them and in this case they claim that there business is way in debt and there's nothing they can do yet they go spend 20grand a year on guns. His life revolves around politics and it's all you can get him to talk about so I get enough of it at work.

That's enough for now. As you can see I have a few issues in my life at the moment. I have to go to work now and see that son of a bitch again.:mad:

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by MacBandit
The reason is I am very upset with Bush. I voted for him and now I'm sorry I did.


Why are you sorry that you voted for him? What has he done to let you down.

Jeff,
The south is a really wierd place. The state of Alabama hasn't voted for a Democrat for President since 1868 or something like that, but all we have is Demcorats in the state government. It is crazy, and wierd really. Some sort of redneck checks and balances I guess :)

It is just out of control to me though that these people cannot accept the fact that they lost the night of the election. Where is taking a loss like a man? Unreal really.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Why are you sorry that you voted for him? What has he done to let you down.

Jeff,
The south is a really wierd place. The state of Alabama hasn't voted for a Democrat for President since 1868 or something like that, but all we have is Demcorats in the state government. It is crazy, and wierd really. Some sort of redneck checks and balances I guess :)

It is just out of control to me though that these people cannot accept the fact that they lost the night of the election. Where is taking a loss like a man? Unreal really.

it sounds like my party were real party poopers in your state

i could understand gore asking for a recount, but the alabama situation sounds like a clear win on the part of the GOP in your state

i used to think the GOP, started by lincoln, would never get a hold in the south because of that

i still see the democrats with johnson, carter, pepper, richards, gore, and clinton as a southern entity...oops, i forgot john travolta, the southern governor:D

travolta played clinton to a tee

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Why are you sorry that you voted for him? What has he done to let you down.

Jeff,
The south is a really wierd place. The state of Alabama hasn't voted for a Democrat for President since 1868 or something like that, but all we have is Demcorats in the state government. It is crazy, and wierd really. Some sort of redneck checks and balances I guess :)

It is just out of control to me though that these people cannot accept the fact that they lost the night of the election. Where is taking a loss like a man? Unreal really.

I voted for a president to help the american people. Bush just wants to help himself. That includes carrying out vendetas for his father in Iraq. I have seen no overwhelming evidence that we need to attack Iraq. I personally believe along with a number of people I know that 9/11 would have never happened if we had kept our noses out of the middle east in the first place.

Bush has turned out to be just like Clinton. He is totally ran by political polls. Whatever it takes to keep his poll numbers high.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by MacBandit
Bush has turned out to be just like Clinton. He is totally ran by political polls. Whatever it takes to keep his poll numbers high.

that's how (most) politicians are...

hence my dissatisfaction with the system.

he'd be considered a fool if he didn't "try" to keep his numbers high....

bah

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


that's how (most) politicians are...

hence my dissatisfaction with the system.

he'd be considered a fool if he didn't "try" to keep his numbers high....

bah

I understand that but I voted for him because I truly believed he wanted to change things. So much for voting for the lesser of two evils.

[alex_ant]

Here's what I have to say: Pants Pissers in 2016!

I will be of presidentially eligible age by then as well, but I'm going to sacrifice my own candidacy to support my soft and supple candidate, Jello's Hot Srule. We'll totally steamroll the major parties. Steamroll them I tell you. And we'll do it with mysterious dark spots in our crotchal regions.

Whatever you do, don't miss the debates.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by alex_ant
Here's what I have to say: Pants Pissers in 2016!

I will be of presidentially eligible age by then as well, but I'm going to sacrifice my own candidacy to support my soft and supple candidate, Jello's Hot Srule. We'll totally steamroll the major parties. Steamroll them I tell you. And we'll do it with mysterious dark spots in our crotchal regions.

Whatever you do, don't miss the debates.


Uh. Maybe you should keep this to yourself. :)

[jelloshotsrule]

2016 here we come!

our slogan: "soft and supple on the outside, wet pants on the inside. and outside"

our key platform: i pissed my pants on live tv. what more do you want?????

what's the highest popular vote % ever gotten?

clearly we'll sweep the electoral, but i just wonder if we can hit the 85% mark on the popular.

you thought bush's face got red when he talked in public, wait til you see me, sitting in what's effectively a diaper, trying to hold back the tears as i tell the country how much i want to help them.......

[alex_ant]

What's even more is that the Democrats and Republicans will be so scared of you, they'll piss their own pants... so there will be three guys on the stage who have just pissed themselves, and Jim Lehrer will be so totally shocked that he will probably piss himself as well. And then everybody watching will be so stunned that... you get the picture

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by alex_ant
What's even more is that the Democrats and Republicans will be so scared of you, they'll piss their own pants... so there will be three guys on the stage who have just pissed themselves, and Jim Lehrer will be so totally shocked that he will probably piss himself as well. And then everybody watching will be so stunned that... you get the picture

In a strange twist of events the lucky ones will be older men with prostrate problems that can't piss without a cathetor.

[jelloshotsrule]

hmm.. but wouldn't that hurt my rep... i mean... now i'm not the only one with the pissed pants.

OR

people will be smart, see who started the trend, and think... wow, this guy's a go getter.....

but still, i'm wary...

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by MacBandit
In a strange twist of events the lucky ones will be older men with prostrate problems that can't piss without a cathetor.
Oh, believe you me, the Pants Pissers Party will spare NO ONE.

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
hmm.. but wouldn't that hurt my rep... i mean... now i'm not the only one with the pissed pants.

OR

people will be smart, see who started the trend, and think... wow, this guy's a go getter.....

but still, i'm wary...
As long as you get up there and can say to yourself 100% honestly that "I am relaxing my kegels and allowing my bladder to flow freely for the good of the American people, for the benefit of freedom-loving Americans and the goodwill of democracy" or some ****ing ridiculous thing like that, the American people will sense this and reward you with their vote. And when all the piss-soaked punchcards across the country are counted, you will be our soft & supple new leader. Dark-spotted jeans will fly from the mast of the flagpole at the Capitol, and... yeah.

[SPG]

I will piss my green pants too, then give my Republican opponent a big hug and a kiss on the mouth, then stroll over to the Democrat and punch him in the stomach. I am not gay nor violent, but under the circumstances these actions would be neccessary and justifiable.

[SPG]

Now that things have gotten pretty ridiculous I will open myself up to criticism and attack by laying down my political history.
In high school (late '80s) I thought I was pretty conservative when it came to politics and social policy. Government out of everything and let the market dictate. People can get jobs if they want them! Big defense so that we can crush the Russkies in the next big one and free Eastern Europe.
A few things happened in the years since.
In 1987-98 I attended a small private school in Germany and met a lot of people from other countries and cultures, pretty interesting to see the rest of the world's view on things. Why could Europe have education, health care, and real social services available to its people when the greatest nation on earth, the USA, wouldn't? We could if we wanted to, but somehow we didn't.
The Chinese crushed a peaceful protest with their military killing a couple thousand and the US rewarded them with trade deals.
When the Soviet Union started to collapse Bush Sr sided with Gorbachev to keep his empire together, didn't say a peep when Russian army tanks crushed a peaceful protest in Lithuania. Huh? I thought the USA stood for freedom and democracy? Well, maybe there was a reason for backing oppression over freedom and democracy. This was the point where I stopped backing Republlicans. Why do we need to spend all our money on defense when there isn't another superpower? Why should I back the guy who says he will go the distance to stop oppression by communists and bring democracy to the world, then does the opposite?
In Detroit a girl I went to school with got shot in the head while sitting at a red light. A guy my sister went to high school with got shot and killed in New York over a fender bender. Hooray for an armed populace!
I spent the next four years working several low paying ****ty jobs at once to pay for school. While working and paying taxes I was still without health care coverage.
Do you see the problem with this picture? The United States is a truly great nation, and I would die to protect our freedoms, but our leadership is not motivated by these same ideals. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I take that pretty seriously and I have to call into question the actions of our government that don't advance those causes. Legal ban on gay marraige? Impeach the legitimately elected President because he got a blowjob? Ban abortion? Ban rap music? How do these actions of the right jive with a "free" society? All my friends from Europe laugh at our news. I don't even try to defend a lot of the actions our government takes anymore.
We have huge amounts of wealth in this country and yet I can't go five blocks from my house without someone asking me for spare change.
I would love to see universal health care, a living wage, an education funding increase of about 500% to start with. These three things are easily done if we as a nation wanted them. Wal Mart now has sales equal to Austria's GDP, yet won't allow many of their employees to receive full time benefits or a living wage.
How is it advantageous to have a poor, uneducated, unhealthy people? Serously, the christian republicans crack me up the most, never voting for the needs of the little people, leaving "those Godless commie loving liberal democrats" to fight for the people. Funny how it always seems like the liberals are the ones who doing the work that most follows Jesus' own life work.

Feel free to attack in my abscence, but George Clinton and Parliament Funkadelic are playing in about an hour, gotta go!

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by SPG
Now that things have gotten pretty ridiculous I will open myself up to criticism and attack by laying down my political history.
In high school (late '80s) I thought I was pretty conservative when it came to politics and social policy. Government out of everything and let the market dictate. People can get jobs if they want them! Big defense so that we can crush the Russkies in the next big one and free Eastern Europe.
A few things happened in the years since.
In 1987-98 I attended a small private school in Germany and met a lot of people from other countries and cultures, pretty interesting to see the rest of the world's view on things. Why could Europe have education, health care, and real social services available to its people when the greatest nation on earth, the USA, wouldn't? We could if we wanted to, but somehow we didn't.
The Chinese crushed a peaceful protest with their military killing a couple thousand and the US rewarded them with trade deals.
When the Soviet Union started to collapse Bush Sr sided with Gorbachev to keep his empire together, didn't say a peep when Russian army tanks crushed a peaceful protest in Lithuania. Huh? I thought the USA stood for freedom and democracy? Well, maybe there was a reason for backing oppression over freedom and democracy. This was the point where I stopped backing Republlicans. Why do we need to spend all our money on defense when there isn't another superpower? Why should I back the guy who says he will go the distance to stop oppression by communists and bring democracy to the world, then does the opposite?
In Detroit a girl I went to school with got shot in the head while sitting at a red light. A guy my sister went to high school with got shot and killed in New York over a fender bender. Hooray for an armed populace!
I spent the next four years working several low paying ****ty jobs at once to pay for school. While working and paying taxes I was still without health care coverage.
Do you see the problem with this picture? The United States is a truly great nation, and I would die to protect our freedoms, but our leadership is not motivated by these same ideals. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I take that pretty seriously and I have to call into question the actions of our government that don't advance those causes. Legal ban on gay marraige? Impeach the legitimately elected President because he got a blowjob? Ban abortion? Ban rap music? How do these actions of the right jive with a "free" society? All my friends from Europe laugh at our news. I don't even try to defend a lot of the actions our government takes anymore.
We have huge amounts of wealth in this country and yet I can't go five blocks from my house without someone asking me for spare change.
I would love to see universal health care, a living wage, an education funding increase of about 500% to start with. These three things are easily done if we as a nation wanted them. Wal Mart now has sales equal to Austria's GDP, yet won't allow many of their employees to receive full time benefits or a living wage.
How is it advantageous to have a poor, uneducated, unhealthy people? Serously, the christian republicans crack me up the most, never voting for the needs of the little people, leaving "those Godless commie loving liberal democrats" to fight for the people. Funny how it always seems like the liberals are the ones who doing the work that most follows Jesus' own life work.

Feel free to attack in my abscence, but George Clinton and Parliament Funkadelic are playing in about an hour, gotta go!


Is it truly the burden of the hard working to supply healthcare to people that take there last dollars and buy a bottle of wine. I do agree with a lot of what you say but I still say get the government out of business. The reason Wal-Mart doesn't supply benefits to all it's employees is the way the government taxes them it's cheaper for them that way. It's also cheaper for them to keep most of there employees on part time instead of full. This is not there fault it's the system that's screwed up. We don't need big brother watching out for us.

[Ovi]

11

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Ovi
SPG

I am going to tell you my own story. My parents came to America in 1979 right when interest rates were around 21% thanks to great management by Carter. They had no education beyond high school and did not speak any English. In 22 years they worked hard, bought more cars than can be counted, bought a house in 1985 and paid it off by 1999, put three kids through private highschool, and college, build a business, and are very happy as I am proud of them.

This despite having no free health care, education, and everything else you are crying about it. If one can not make it in this country they will never make it any other place in the world.

When my dad reads the paper and sees what democrats talk about he turns to me and says; son communists told us the same things for 40 years

I reply back; I know dad thank God we are republicans with great values and a strong will to make our lives better.

Liberals without a doubt want to make this country into a Socialist Society. Which is a small step away from communism.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Ovi
I am going to tell you my own story. My parents came to America in 1979 right when interest rates were around 21% thanks to great management by Carter. They had no education beyond high school and did not speak any English. In 22 years they worked hard, bought more cars than can be counted, bought a house in 1985 and paid it off by 1999, put three kids through private highschool, and college, build a business, and are very happy as I am proud of them.

This despite having no free health care, education, and everything else you are crying about it. If one can not make it in this country they will never make it any other place in the world.

When my dad reads the paper and sees what democrats talk about he turns to me and says; son communists told us the same things for 40 years

I reply back; I know dad thank God we are republicans with great values and a strong will to make our lives better.

Congratulations to your parents for working hard and realizing their dreams. Unfortunately, not all who come to this country are lucky enough to buy "more cars than can be counted".

For those people who need more help, liberals ensure that there are programs in place to support them in achieving their dreams.

I agree that this is a country where anyone can make it, given the opportunity to succeed. After all, if your parents, or the many immigrants that came through Ellis Island might remember, the Statue of Liberty's tablet's inscription reads:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Congratulations to your parents for working hard and realizing their dreams. Unfortunately, not all who come to this country are lucky enough to buy "more cars than can be counted".

For those people who need more help, liberals ensure that there are programs in place to support them in achieving their dreams.

I agree that this is a country where anyone can make it, given the opportunity to succeed. After all, if your parents, or the many immigrants that came through Ellis Island might remember, the Statue of Liberty's tablet's inscription reads:


The opportunity is already there. There is no need for the government to try to help.

[Ovi]

11

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Ovi
of course they were lucky it had nothing to do with hard work.

lets take a quick look at the programs liberals have in place.

Social security which has ensured we now have millions of poor elderly who can not afford drugs. hey at least we have their votes.

Medicare which is growing faster than welfare moms have babies. Welfare reform which Bill took credit for clearly demonstrates that we can help the poor get out of poverty without making the system bigger.

last time I checked churches and non profit groups help more Americans than liberal gov. institutions.

Many people work very hard and never make it out of slums...what do your conservative parents say to them?

Last time you checked what? You need to provide some back up for arguments like that...and no, "my Daddy says so" is not backup.

[Ovi]

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[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Ovi
we have given more money and volunteered more hours to those people than you guys dream of giving in a lifetime.

you are just going to have to trust me on this data, for I am not about to spend more time educating you to paying more attention to social issues instead of sounding like you care

the daddy remark clearly shows that you are liberal democrat with a big chip on your shoulder i might add.

Oh yes labeling again.

Really, like...a bajillion dollars and hours of volunteer work? Or is a gazillion more? I always get them mixed up.

You are just going to have to trust me when I say that you're immature and need to learn a lot about debate, for I am not about to spend more time educating you to pay more attention to what you post, instead of sounding like you know what you're talking about.

The chip on the shoulder remark clearly shows that you are a conservative republican with a big inferiority complex, I might add.

Is this getting old yet? ;)

[alex_ant]

What's happening is that Ovi has descended from the heavens and is confused as to why his word is not being universally accepted as gospel. He feels no need to justify his positions or to engage in thoughtful and/or respectful debate with his opponents, because he is right, and they are wrong, so what would be the point? He can only hope that the longer he stays, the more people will accept his point of view and replace their faulty, contradictory belief systems with an ideology that is inherently right and good and moral - like his, for example, which actually happens to be the only ideology that meets each of those criteria!

I say we all just give in and accept the divine truth.

[Ovi]

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[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by alex_ant
What's happening is that Ovi has descended from the heavens and is confused as to why his word is not being universally accepted as gospel. He feels no need to justify his positions or to engage in thoughtful and/or respectful debate with his opponents, because he is right, and they are wrong, so what would be the point? He can only hope that the longer he stays, the more people will accept his point of view and replace their faulty, contradictory belief systems with an ideology that is inherently right and good and moral - like his, for example, which actually happens to be the only ideology that meets each of those criteria!

I say we all just give in and accept the divine truth.

Of course!!! How could I have been so blind!?!?

I have seen the error of my ways...and do hereby completely and utterly repent my evil ways and heretical doubting!


PLEASE FORGIVE ME!!!

[Ovi]

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[alex_ant]

Originally posted by Ovi
articulated well but wrong conclusion. why am i not surprised.:rolleyes:
You're not surprised because you are the all-knowing, all-seeing. You realized my conclusion would be wrong aeons before I even came to it!

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Ovi
it will never get old debating liberals because it is easy. the funny thing is that you actually believe that you are debating.

Nuh hunh! You're the one who's not really debating! :p

[Ovi]

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[Ovi]

11

[Ovi]

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[job]

I can't believe you guys stay up that late to spam...

And I thought I was the one of the only real spammers around here...

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by alex_ant
What's happening is that Ovi has descended from the heavens and is confused as to why his word is not being universally accepted as gospel. He feels no need to justify his positions or to engage in thoughtful and/or respectful debate with his opponents, because he is right, and they are wrong, so what would be the point? He can only hope that the longer he stays, the more people will accept his point of view and replace their faulty, contradictory belief systems with an ideology that is inherently right and good and moral - like his, for example, which actually happens to be the only ideology that meets each of those criteria!

I say we all just give in and accept the divine truth.

so does this mean i'm out in 2016? or am i just the great ovi's successor at that point??

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


so does this mean i'm out in 2016? or am i just the great ovi's successor at that point??

2016 is so far off but if i remember you, i will consider voting for you

now i may even vote for a member of a different party because he uses a mac

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule

so does this mean i'm out in 2016? or am i just the great ovi's successor at that point??
No, you will still win thanks to the wet spot between your legs. If there was ever a populace that would vote for a wet spot ahead of ideology, it's the American people. Wheeee!

[jelloshotsrule]

i think even if you don't remember me per se, once you see the live tv pants pissing, things will start to click in your head... assuming you still have your memory by then. ;):D

[SPG]

Ovi, I'm glad that your parents are successful, especially as imigrants since so is my father who made it over from a displaced persons camp after WWII. I agree that there is opportunity here in this country. What did your parents do to make their fortune? Did they come here with money to start their business, or did they come here with the clothes on their backs?
Social Security is draining our economy and causing old people to starve?
Providing a basic safety net is the same as buying Porsches for your mythical Welfare Moms or wine for the indigent. As a matter of fact you can't buy alcohol on food stamps.
Socialism is not Comunism, and a few minimum social programs is not Socialism. Right now we have the opposite extreme where business is given tax cuts, loopholes, government subsidies, you can call that corporate welfare if you will, and yet all the while there is no accountability to how the employee is treated. Walmart doesn't keep their employees as full time because they would have to pay benefits to them and reduce a couple percent of their billions in profit. How much money did Sam Walton have when he died? A lot of good it's doing him now, but if he treated his employees just a little better it would have done them some good.

I'm not "whining" because I haven't done well, I have done fairly well for myself. I live a good life and my combined household income says that I am considered "wealthy", but I see that it's no so easy for a lot of other people. The republican idea that anyone can do it if they'd stop smoking crack, stop drinking, stop having babies, and just go out and get a job! It's not that simple, nor accurate an assessment of the situation.

[Ovi]

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[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Ovi



we need less gov., less taxes and less restrictions on business. we have a decent system in place to avoid abuse and monopolies. there is plenty of accountability fo the way an employee is treated. don't give me enron because that example does not appy here. you may disagree but that is how i view things.

being a fiscally conservative democrat, i agree with those points and i am a fledgling entrepreneur, too so i can see your point

we can reform social security but not kill it

and i think we need some reform of medical insurance since 40 million of 270 million americans don't have it

i am a minority and sometimes i think the liberls bend over backward too far

i am a christian but i believe strongly in how our founding fathers, conservatives and liberals both, framed our laws and made sure we could have separation of church and state

there is a small but vocal wing of the GOP , who none of us think represent the whole GOP, that wants to blend religion and government together

we got away from the crown, we got away from the anglican church which has a monarcy member as its head, and we spilled blood to have our goverment and our church be separate

let's not let the brave soldiers and citizens of a young america be shamed by mixing religion and politics in order to flush our more votes for the GOP...that is shameful

my father fought tyranny in world war II in the us army and even though he is a republican, he realizes that his fight was for democracy and our great republic...and that's why he hasn't voted for a republican since the 80s

we can't have a loud squeaky wheel of some religious conservatives hijack the republican party

christianity is john 3:16 and not the local aganda of a few bible belters getting rich and famous and living like the rich jesus said would have less of a chance of getting into heaven as a camel thru the eye of a needle

for america and our great people, keep politics in the political arena

and keep religion, all types, in the religious arena

rant over...or at least for this post:p ;)

[SPG]

Originally posted by Ovi

... my belief is that the republicans who you classify as simply laughing at the poor do a much better job of fixing the social issues than democrats. the solution out of democrats is always revolves around getting more money into a system that is partially working. welfare reform worked by cutting off funds not increasing funds.
The jury is still out on whether welfare reform really "worked" yet, so lets not assume that it's a resounding success yet. Granted, more people who were on welfare are working, but not all. There aren't as many jobs out there as there was in the boom of just a few years ago, and if the recession keeps going there will be even fewer, so what then? Out on the street with them? What if you didn't have a family to fall back on and you lost your job? How long would you be able to continue your current lifestyle if it was just you and nobody there to help you?

Originally posted by Ovi
I agree with you on the issue of corporate wellfare. since we don't live in a utopian society, politics require a certain amount of give and take. one does not get results unless they get into power. power is not attained without some compromise. it is not a perfect system but overall both parties have managed to make the gov. bigger through it.
I'm glad you see the problem there. Unfortunately this is the logical outcome of having expensive elections that only corporations and those who already have power have access.

Originally posted by Ovi
Social Security is draining our economy and it is making old people suffer. my wife's parents while still alive barely made it with a small pention and social security. i never said we need to banned it but republicans are making efforts towards reforming it. if you have done well for yourself you should understand the economic power of investing one's money. we need to allow this generation to start to do just that instead of relying on SS.
How is Social Security drainin the economy? By not having that moeny in the stock market?
I'm doing okay, but I still don't have squat for investments since I have to make car payments and rent payments, and healthcare payments, and taxes, and bills...

Originally posted by Ovi
socialism is not communism, but they have more incommon than you might think. one big difference of course is that there is no freedom of speech, religion, and so on. but the overall premise is that big gov. can create equality by delegating and controling economic activity. price caps is a perfect example of this among many.
FYI, Socialism has nothing to do with a lack of freedom of speech, religion, or so on. Those are the products of a government that believes that it is absolutely right and therefore any one who says otherwise is wrong and shouldn't be allowed to spread misinformation.
Republicans always claim they are against "big government", bull****. Both parties expand the government, the republicans just expanded the military by more than any other country even spends ont heir entire military
.
Originally posted by Ovi
we need less gov., less taxes and less restrictions on business. we have a decent system in place to avoid abuse and monopolies. there is plenty of accountability fo the way an employee is treated. don't give me enron because that example does not appy here. you may disagree but that is how i view things.
I don't think that the size of the government or the taxes are necesarily the problem, but rather where that money goes. I'd rather see my money go less to the military, less to prop up foreign dictators, less to corporate welfare, and more to education and healthcare. I'm guessing you're in favor of more military spending and less for education and healthcare.
I don't think there is nearly enough corporate policing going on, and I will mention Enron, Tyco, Arthur Anderson, etc, and THEY DO APPLY HERE. How can you say that Enron doesn't apply? Operation Death Star which created the California Energy Crisis, doubled electric bills, caused rolling blackouts, ruined small businesses, and cost billions was the brainchild of the same Enron execs that were on Cheney's Super Secret Energy Taskforce and now a couple of them are in Bush's cabinet. How does that not apply here?
How about Microsoft? No monopoly there according to Bush.
If there was real accountability for the way workers were treated there would be no permanent part time, and no need for both spouses to work two jobs just to keep the kids that they don't see fed.
I am in no way advocating full controls over business, but someone needs to balance businesses desire for gain with the welfare of those that work for it and consume it's products. This is not a bad thing like many republicans and CEO's will have you believe.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by Ovi
we need less gov., less taxes and less restrictions on business. we have a decent system in place to avoid abuse and monopolies. there is plenty of accountability fo the way an employee is treated. don't give me enron because that example does not appy here. you may disagree but that is how i view things.

I'm glad you finally agree that the republican's idea of putting social security money in the stock market is wrong, that the alleged "tax cut" can't be supported because it will end up increasing the overall tax burdens of nearly everyone, that tort reform is wrong, and that we do in fact need government oversight of big business.

Finally, OVI, you're coming over to the left.

[Chisholm]

Originally posted by mcrain

Finally, OVI, you're coming over to the left.

Use the force Luke! Pull his heart from the evil grasp of the Dark Side...