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MacRumors
Jul 16, 2012, 10:41 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/16/att-to-restrict-or-charge-for-facetime-over-3g4g-in-ios-6/)


As noted in our ongoing iOS 6 Beta 3 discussion thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=15262931#post15262931), it appears that AT&T will be restricting and possibly charging for the new FaceTime-over-3G-network feature in iOS 6. Prior to iOS 6, FaceTime was a Wi-Fi-only service.

The following error message appears for AT&T customers in iOS 6 when trying to activate FaceTime over cellular networks:

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/07/facetime3g.jpg


The error message is similar to one given to AT&T customers who wish to enable data tethering under iOS. AT&T requires users to pay for a separate tethering data plan to enable that feature.

At the time of the original iOS 6 announcement, we had reported (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/19/carriers-quiet-on-prospects-for-facetime-over-cellular-networks-with-ios-6/) that many carriers were quiet of the prospect of allowing FaceTime over their cellular networks. An AT&T spokesperson said that they were "working closely with Apple on features disclosed for iOS 6, and we'll share more information with our customers as we get closer to launch." We are reaching out to AT&T for an update or statement on their plans.

9to5Mac also notes (http://9to5mac.com/2012/07/16/att-appears-set-to-control-and-charge-for-facetime-over-cellular-in-ios-6/) the same behavior on AT&T networks and found the same error message did not appear when trying to activate FaceTime over Verizon's 3G networks.

Update: AT&T issued this statement, which is very similar to the one issued back in June:
We're working closely with Apple on the new developer build of iOS 6 and
we'll share more information with our customers as it becomes available.

Article Link: AT&T to Restrict or Charge for FaceTime Over 3G/4G in iOS 6? [Updated With AT&T Statement] (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/16/att-to-restrict-or-charge-for-facetime-over-3g4g-in-ios-6/)



ratzzo
Jul 16, 2012, 10:42 PM
As user friendly and cheap as ever.

jav6454
Jul 16, 2012, 10:42 PM
Fees, fees everywhere.


3G Unrestrictor it is then.

JrJ 15
Jul 16, 2012, 10:42 PM
It's my data, I pay for it, let me use in anyway that I choose!

levitynyc
Jul 16, 2012, 10:43 PM
Data is data....i don't get it.

coasterswim
Jul 16, 2012, 10:43 PM
I struggle to see how AT&T is going to be able to sell this to its subscribers as a premium feature that would make them want to pay for it. Personal hotspot is one thing, but this?

larrylaffer
Jul 16, 2012, 10:43 PM
Are there any third-party video chat apps for iOS yet? If so, do they work over 3G?

jayhawk11
Jul 16, 2012, 10:44 PM
It worked just fine on Verizon because Verizon doesn't have separate hotspot plans like AT&T does.

Don't get me wrong, I fully expect AT&T to shaft customers with this. Just wanna clarify why Verizon users weren't seeing issues.

coolbreeze
Jul 16, 2012, 10:44 PM
Oh my god. ATT is the devil! Seriously! If I pay for 5 gigs (which I do) I will use my 5 gigs HOW I PLEASE! (includes tethering, so cool your jets on that one).

US wireless is the worst.

lowonthe456
Jul 16, 2012, 10:45 PM
It's my data, I pay for it, let me use in anyway that I choose!


Yep and if ATT thinks I'm paying extra they can kiss my ass. I hope to god T-MO gets the iPhone this year. I'll take my 4 iPhone family somewhere else. I have not had any issues with ATT service wise, but this will push me to another carrier.

christophermdia
Jul 16, 2012, 10:45 PM
punks! Skype works just fine over 3G....im not giving you a penny more!

PodPacker
Jul 16, 2012, 10:45 PM
I'll be switching if that's the case.

flgator346
Jul 16, 2012, 10:45 PM
MONEY MONEY MONEY!! That is all it is.... Hopefully when iOS 6 is officially released, this will be all changed!

TimeArrow
Jul 16, 2012, 10:45 PM
Look up.

3G Unrestrictor let you facetime over 3G natively!

Great ATT! Another reason to jailbreak iOS6.

Are there any third-party video chat apps for iOS yet? If so, do they work over 3G?

pbush25
Jul 16, 2012, 10:46 PM
I posted the same thing on the 9to5 forums; as soon as they posted that story, I attempted to make FaceTime calls with my iPhone that was updated to beta 3 today. I had no issues placing and receiving 4 separate FaceTime calls over 4G this evening. Maybe it's just my phone, I don't know. But it worked fine for me.

ganymedes13
Jul 16, 2012, 10:46 PM
I would like to say that no one could be so stupid as to charge for this but this is AT&T. I'm glad I dumped them as my carrier.

AppleFan73
Jul 16, 2012, 10:46 PM
Glad I'm leaving AT&T and going to Sprint. AT&T = Rip off!

denaliOnDubs
Jul 16, 2012, 10:46 PM
Pretty frustrating... I'm not surprised however.

nickn
Jul 16, 2012, 10:47 PM
Dear AT&T,
Go **** yourself!

From, the world.

drummingcraig
Jul 16, 2012, 10:47 PM
I wonder how this may affect those of us who are jailbroken and can use FaceTime over cellular via apps such as 3G Unrestrictor.

In any event I think this is a total crap move by AT&T. Double fees on data...whats next...having to pay a fee to use my data to access my email? :rolleyes:

b166er
Jul 16, 2012, 10:47 PM
the only thing worse than this.....


.... will be reading ATT's excuse as to why they are doing it.


Deplorable. I pay for unlimited data. I rarely hit 2 gigs. Not a chance they will dime me for facetime, as it is not their feature.

sputnikv
Jul 16, 2012, 10:49 PM
it's 2012, why are american carriers so behind the rest of the world?

doobybiggs
Jul 16, 2012, 10:49 PM
LOL, another reason AT&T can suck it

arn
Jul 16, 2012, 10:49 PM
I posted the same thing on the 9to5 forums; as soon as they posted that story, I attempted to make FaceTime calls with my iPhone that was updated to beta 3 today. I had no issues placing and receiving 4 separate FaceTime calls over 4G this evening. Maybe it's just my phone, I don't know. But it worked fine for me.

try resetting network settings
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=15263082&postcount=310

if you don't mind losing the ability.

arn

Small White Car
Jul 16, 2012, 10:50 PM
Honestly I kind of LIKE having this broken out so I have the chance to not pay for it.

The fact that Verizon now makes you pay for unlimited voice and texts no matter what you want makes them a non-starter for me. I kind of like the idea of a carrier that lets me not pay for certain things. (And this certainly is one of those things that I wouldn't pay for.)

Aodhan
Jul 16, 2012, 10:50 PM
God AT&T sucks. Wish I could change providers.

Amazing Iceman
Jul 16, 2012, 10:51 PM
the only thing worse than this.....


.... will be reading ATT's excuse as to why they are doing it.


Deplorable. I pay for unlimited data. I rarely hit 2 gigs. Not a chance they will dime me for facetime, as it is not their feature.

They would dime you for FaceTime while Skype, Oovoo and others are free? What the heck is going on? It's time for the DoJ to step in and put give them what they deserve!

Also, WTH is Apple allowing this? Screw AT&T and give the chance to another carrier who's not a greedy bastard.

bedifferent
Jul 16, 2012, 10:51 PM
(this is why we need the down-vote button back)

For?

garylapointe
Jul 16, 2012, 10:51 PM
So I can Skype, Fring, uStream and who knows what else, but I can't FaceTime? We pay for our data. Who cares what they want?

Is this one of those things that can get me out of my contract?

Gary :)

VSMacOne
Jul 16, 2012, 10:52 PM
Hey that's my picture up there ;)

Also, I've been a defendant of AT&T for a while but this is just too much. It's one thing to charge for hotspot (connecting an external device to use the iPhone data makes a bit of sense) but to use a built in functionality ON THE PHONE ITSELF and have to pay extra for it is very un-Apple like. And bonehead. Carriers are evil!

travistaylor
Jul 16, 2012, 10:52 PM
Just one more reason to switch to Verizon. Peace out, Ma-Bell.

coolbreeze
Jul 16, 2012, 10:53 PM
Honestly I kind of LIKE having this broken out so I have the chance to not pay for it.

You honestly think AT&T will give you some sort of discount if you are an iPhone user and don't use Facetime on their network? You will continue paying the same amount...what's not to like!?

Bottom line is this isn't AT&T's feature. To charge for it is borderline illegal.

Now if they said "you can disable Facetime over 3/4G and receive a $5 discount" that would be more palatable. To simply charge an above and beyond fee for Apple's feature is seriously shady.

MACdaddy859
Jul 16, 2012, 10:53 PM
It's my data, I pay for it, let me use in anyway that I choose!

RIGHT!!!!! But At&t seem to not see it that way....SMH

pbush25
Jul 16, 2012, 10:53 PM
try resetting network settings
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=15263082&postcount=310

if you don't mind losing the ability.

arn

Haha well... I do kinda like it, so maybe I'll hold off. But if that does it, then AT&T is making a bad move. I think I'll send an email to Randall and tell him that it's not okay.

3N16MA
Jul 16, 2012, 10:56 PM
I'm in Canada so I do not have AT&T but if this is true all I can say is "go **** yourself AT&T."

- From your friendly neighbors up north.

Amazing Iceman
Jul 16, 2012, 10:56 PM
So I can Skype, Fring, uStream and who knows what else, but I can't FaceTime? We pay for our data. Who cares what they want?

Is this one of those things that can get me out of my contract?

Gary :)

Probably... Just wait for any change in their Terms of Service and you may have a way out of it.

Spicedham
Jul 16, 2012, 10:56 PM
It's screwed up how these companies try to keep customers from using the full amount of data they paid for. If we paid for something we should be able to use it how we want. If we go over we'll pay the charges. Simple as that.

ChazUK
Jul 16, 2012, 10:56 PM
Seeing as this is a core function of iOS, why are Apple letting carriers interfere in such a way?

Doesn't make sense.

Hakone
Jul 16, 2012, 10:57 PM
Apple bought out T-Mo? :rolleyes:

Amazing Iceman
Jul 16, 2012, 10:58 PM
Honestly I kind of LIKE having this broken out so I have the chance to not pay for it.

The fact that Verizon now makes you pay for unlimited voice and texts no matter what you want makes them a non-starter for me. I kind of like the idea of a carrier that lets me not pay for certain things. (And this certainly is one of those things that I wouldn't pay for.)

What it is that you smoke so I stay away from it??? :eek:

AriX
Jul 16, 2012, 10:58 PM
Hahahahahahaha because I'm totally going to pay for that.

Dionte
Jul 16, 2012, 10:59 PM
I'm leaving Att for Verizon data family share and LTE when the new iPhone comes out so it won't phase me. I am done with them, Verizon is even including tethering.

caligomez
Jul 16, 2012, 10:59 PM
Are there any third-party video chat apps for iOS yet? If so, do they work over 3G?

Umm yeah.. Tango. Works great.

-LikesMac-
Jul 16, 2012, 10:59 PM
The DoJ needs to step into this to fix this. :mad:

MacUser4_20
Jul 16, 2012, 11:00 PM
I posted the same thing on the 9to5 forums; as soon as they posted that story, I attempted to make FaceTime calls with my iPhone that was updated to beta 3 today. I had no issues placing and receiving 4 separate FaceTime calls over 4G this evening. Maybe it's just my phone, I don't know. But it worked fine for me.

Works fine for me too.. Maybe unlimited data plans are exempt from this?

deannnnn
Jul 16, 2012, 11:02 PM
I wish this was more of a shock to me, but it's just business as usual on AT&T.

My contract is up this year and I'm switching to Verizon. This alone isn't enough to get me to switch, but I've dealt with terrible service in NYC on AT&T for the past 4 years and I've had enough.

ugahairydawgs
Jul 16, 2012, 11:02 PM
And people wonder why Apple waited this long to add 3G FaceTime.

coolbreeze
Jul 16, 2012, 11:03 PM
Works fine for me too.. Maybe unlimited data plans are exempt from this?

I would think those would be targeted first. I have a 5 gig plan I pay $50 for. Tell me again why I can't use 5 gigs of Facetime data?

I'll hang up and take the answer on-air.

nilk
Jul 16, 2012, 11:04 PM
It's crazy that I pay AT&T for tethering for my iPhone and I could in theory use FaceTime on my laptop tethered to my iPhone, but I can't use FaceTime on the iPhone itself (edit: I meant over the cellular connection). If this is still the situation when iOS 6 arrives, that'll be silly.

TUD
Jul 16, 2012, 11:04 PM
One more reason to ditch AT&T. I planned to leave when the 4S came out, but I stayed with them solely for my grandfathered unlimited data, which I now regret. I will pay the reduced ETF & jump ship this fall or after the first of the year.

treyjustice
Jul 16, 2012, 11:04 PM
Are you kidding me? Someone pays for 2 GB of data and then will get charged because they want to use the same exact data to make a voice call. F AT&T.

cvaldes
Jul 16, 2012, 11:05 PM
Are there any third-party video chat apps for iOS yet? If so, do they work over 3G?
There are plenty that run over WiFi. Just go to a site like AppShopper and search for video conferencing. You could do the same at the iTunes App Store, but the search function isn't as good.

Longtime third-party service fring has featured cellular 3G video chat for a while. Also available are Tango and Skype. There are probably others, but those are the biggest third-party services that run over 3G.

There are many more video conference services that run over WiFi. Video conferencing services have been around since front-facing cameras have showed up on smartphones. I guess that would be summer 2010 on the iPhone 4.

So yeah, there have been video conferencing apps available on the iPhone for a couple of years.

pbush25
Jul 16, 2012, 11:05 PM
Works fine for me too.. Maybe unlimited data plans are exempt from this?

I don't have unlimited data, I pay for the 2Gb plan. Arn said resetting your network settings would do it, but since I have the feature, I'd rather not intentionally get rid of it since it's still free right now. Haha

MrXiro
Jul 16, 2012, 11:05 PM
Not only should AT&T not charge extra to use FaceTime Apple should make them waive any data usage charges for FaceTime use. AT&T and their backwards thinking is restricting the progression of technology.

b166er
Jul 16, 2012, 11:05 PM
Update: AT&T issued this statement, which is very similar to the one issued back in June:


Article Link: AT&T to Restrict or Charge for FaceTime Over 3G/4G in iOS 6? [Updated With AT&T Statement] (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/16/att-to-restrict-or-charge-for-facetime-over-3g4g-in-ios-6/)

rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble

In my opinion, anything but a denial that they are planning on charging means they are planning on charging.

dwhittington
Jul 16, 2012, 11:05 PM
Hopefully Verizon will see things differently. I've been looking for a good reason to switch from AT&T. Users should be able to pick and choose which services utilize their data plans. Carriers should not be able to pick and choose which services we use over our data plans, especially those that are "unlimited" .

akac
Jul 16, 2012, 11:06 PM
This is one reason we are moving to Verizon when the iPhone 5 comes out.

bidwalj
Jul 16, 2012, 11:06 PM
I guess this makes the new Verizon plans a bit better considering they give you the hotspot and FaceTime over data built into the plan. Of course it depends on if you will even use these features.

coolbreeze
Jul 16, 2012, 11:07 PM
It's crazy that I pay AT&T for tethering for my iPhone and I could in theory use FaceTime on my laptop tethered to my iPhone, but I can't use FaceTime on the iPhone itself. If this is still the situation when iOS 6 arrives, that'll be silly.

Wonder what Randy has to say about this? I pay for 5 gigs. This includes tethering. I can tether and facetime all day long for not a red cent more.

Randy?

Mad-B-One
Jul 16, 2012, 11:08 PM
punks! Skype works just fine over 3G....im not giving you a penny more!

Exactly. Goodbye FaceTime, hello Skype! Also works on all PC, Mac and Androids.

caligomez
Jul 16, 2012, 11:08 PM
Ok then.. AT&T just seems to be pushing their users to jailbreak.. Forcing them almost..

They'll get their day..

Rocketman
Jul 16, 2012, 11:09 PM
Information "As it becomes available . . ."

It's available right now. It just has not been announced yet.

Verizon charges $10 per 2GB over the max plan. That's a whole bunch more expensive than any fixed line.
If I were to guess, the first version of iOS6 will have an uber crippled resolution for Facetime (default or hard coded) to reduce network hog.

The last thing they want you to do is watch Netflix movies for $9 a month.

Rocketman

mrr
Jul 16, 2012, 11:12 PM
What B.S. AT&T !

I can already stream video via Slingbox and Skype too.

AT&T is making money on all the data that I use. So what more do they want?

Why should FaceTime be any different?

harley3k
Jul 16, 2012, 11:13 PM
I can't help but think it's about the minutes.
If you FaceTime everyone instead of calling you're using Data alright, that your'e paying for, but you're also NOT using any minutes...so you could drop your minutes plan down to a minimum, bump up your data, and end up cheaper possibly.

ATT already losing revenue on texting with iMessage.

I don't know why they or someone doesn't just lead the pack and provide a Data-Only plan already...it's not like Voice or SMS are something special any more.

ellsworth
Jul 16, 2012, 11:13 PM
I'm no fan of AT&T but how do we even know this will be the case. I'm pretty sure AT&T themselves don't even know what the drill will be... but.. I punch myself in the face with that statement because how come Verizon customers aren't experiencing this...

Any word on what deal will be with Sprint?

bkushner
Jul 16, 2012, 11:14 PM
Oh my god. ATT is the devil! Seriously! If I pay for 5 gigs (which I do) I will use my 5 gigs HOW I PLEASE! (includes tethering, so cool your jets on that one).

US wireless is the worst.

nope . Japan allows no tethering or unlocked phones.
Canada requires 3 year contracts

mikefla
Jul 16, 2012, 11:15 PM
But of course, it's no surprise coming from the greedy bastards at AT&T.

-Mike

QuarterSwede
Jul 16, 2012, 11:16 PM
I struggle to see how AT&T is going to be able to sell this to its subscribers as a premium feature that would make them want to pay for it. Personal hotspot is one thing, but this?
Gotta agree. I've been using iOS 6 since beta 1 and I use FaceTime quite often but I rarely need to use it on "4G." I wouldn't pay extra for it.

coolbreeze
Jul 16, 2012, 11:16 PM
nope . Japan allows no tethering or unlocked phones.
Canada requires 3 year contracts

That's why you don't live in Japan and only buy unlocked phones :D

mikefla
Jul 16, 2012, 11:17 PM
I can't help but think it's about the minutes.
If you FaceTime everyone instead of calling you're using Data alright, that your'e paying for, but you're also NOT using any minutes...so you could drop your minutes plan down to a minimum, bump up your data, and end up cheaper possibly.

ATT already losing revenue on texting with iMessage.

I don't know why they or someone doesn't just lead the pack and provide a Data-Only plan already...it's not like Voice or SMS are something special any more.
Thanks Apple for iMessage and screw AT&T for their already absurd rates on everything. Scum Bags!

-Mike

Marrakas
Jul 16, 2012, 11:17 PM
I'm not going back to T-Mobile and their insanely bad customer service at least, but I'll definitely not be staying with AT$T if this goes through.

What other alternatives do I have for a GSM iPhone?

famoussasjohn
Jul 16, 2012, 11:19 PM
Well..if that's the case, I'll start looking for a new carrier when the new iPhone is announced.

nickn
Jul 16, 2012, 11:19 PM
Carriers are evil!

Most, but not all. I am on Virgin Mobile USA, and only pay $35 a month off contract for 300 min, unlimited text, and most importantly unlimited 3G/4G data. They don't have any BS charges like this, and recently actually lowered their monthly rates for iPhone users.

kdarling
Jul 16, 2012, 11:19 PM
Seeing as this is a core function of iOS, why are Apple letting carriers interfere in such a way?

Despite the popular myth that Jobs changed some major way that phone makers interact with carriers (no carrier logo or preloaded apps? big whoop)...

...Apple has always let AT&T influence what they do, from the original WiFi-only Skype to delaying Google Voice, to WiFi-only Facetime, to showing "4G" for HSPA+.

E.g. In Apple's reply to the 2009 FCC inquiry as to its relationship with AT&T, Apple stated:

“There is a provision in Apple’s agreement with AT&T that obligates Apple not to include functionality in any Apple phone that enables a customer to use AT&T’s cellular network service to originate or terminate a VoIP session without obtaining AT&T’s permission. Apple honors this obligation, in addition to respecting AT&T’s customer Terms of Service, which, for example, prohibit an AT&T customer from using AT&T’s cellular service to redirect a TV signal to an iPhone.”

Other parts of the reply indicated that Apple listened closely to AT&T's recommendations as to what constituted an app that was too bandwidth heavy for cellular.

Some of that has changed over time, but apparently some has not.

audio_inside
Jul 16, 2012, 11:21 PM
They're popping corks over at Verizon while AT&T is biting down on this s*** sandwich. What losers.

khovland92
Jul 16, 2012, 11:22 PM
LOL, another reason AT&T can suck it

yeah seriously

dropping AT&T in 3...2....1....

drummingcraig
Jul 16, 2012, 11:23 PM
I can't help but think it's about the minutes.
If you FaceTime everyone instead of calling you're using Data alright, that your'e paying for, but you're also NOT using any minutes...so you could drop your minutes plan down to a minimum, bump up your data, and end up cheaper possibly.

ATT already losing revenue on texting with iMessage.

I don't know why they or someone doesn't just lead the pack and provide a Data-Only plan already...it's not like Voice or SMS are something special any more.

iMessage certainly hit AT&T where it hurts w/r/t texting plans. And you may be correct that this is a knee-jerk, preemptive reaction to FT digging into voice minutes. However, it seems as if voice plans are on the verge of becoming unlimited across the board for smart phone plans. So it really shouldn't matter in the long run.

aliensporebomb
Jul 16, 2012, 11:24 PM
Can't wait until the next phone is released so I can dump this carrier and their money sucking policies.

nutmac
Jul 16, 2012, 11:25 PM
Paying for tethering/hotspot and FaceTime are simply consumer abuse, pure and simple. Aside from grandfathered unlimited accounts, which can be restricted, there is simply no justification for requiring users to pay fees for features that will encourage users to consume more data and pay overage fee.

laff555
Jul 16, 2012, 11:28 PM
No one will use facetime anymore onces this comes into play. skype is free over 3G. If they start doing this, whats to say they won't charge me for every iMessage.

dave8209
Jul 16, 2012, 11:28 PM
:) my pictures on the left
I hope AT&T doesn't take any other features in iOS 6 from us.

wheezy
Jul 16, 2012, 11:34 PM
Updated a few hours ago, just saw this post and got upset.

Then I tried a Facetime over "4G" and it worked just fine; but I had already activated Facetime over cellular in a previous dev build so I guess it carried over and the ATT block won't apply?

iPhone 4S, Unlimited Data, iOS6 Beta 3 in Utah.

nutmac
Jul 16, 2012, 11:35 PM
I can't help but think it's about the minutes.
If you FaceTime everyone instead of calling you're using Data alright, that your'e paying for, but you're also NOT using any minutes...so you could drop your minutes plan down to a minimum, bump up your data, and end up cheaper possibly.

AT&T charges $10 per GB, which is good for about 650 minutes of FaceTime calls. In contrast, AT&T's $60 individual adds mere 450 minutes over $40 plan and $70 family plan mere 150 minutes over $60 plan. Apple can offer voice only FaceTime calls in the future, which would only devalue AT&T's premium plans even further.

neo666
Jul 16, 2012, 11:35 PM
I had it on on beta 2 and can still use it. I don't want to lose it so I'm gonna keep it as long as I can. AT&T unlimited : /

duddy
Jul 16, 2012, 11:35 PM
This is why I love Verizon's new plans. It's like they are saying, "Pick how many gigs you want and use it however you like, we don't care."

It's how any carrier SHOULD handle it any way considering they are capping you.

But I have a theory, perhaps the people that are receiving this message probably still have unlimited data plans.

I'm on an AT&T capped plan and have not received this message after 6 4G FaceTime calls. (I'm on Beta 3)

Fruit Cake
Jul 16, 2012, 11:36 PM
Is the AT&T network THAT bad? I mean even with LTE that it can't handle a small video chat over cellular?

Sounds like a third rate network.

theelysium
Jul 16, 2012, 11:39 PM
Yep and if ATT thinks I'm paying extra they can kiss my ass. I hope to god T-MO gets the iPhone this year. I'll take my 4 iPhone family somewhere else. I have not had any issues with ATT service wise, but this will push me to another carrier.

Can't wait I'll leave AT&T's ass !

holmesf
Jul 16, 2012, 11:40 PM
For?

The problem with not having a down-vote button is that it rewards commenters for taking simplistic, or extreme positions. For example, few will bother to read a long, well reasoned argument, but a simple statement like "this sucks!" will get you an up vote from the 1/2 that agrees with you. And equally "this is the greatest thing ever!" will get you the same.

So here's my statement:

Not having a down vote button is the worst thing ever! It's worse than Stalin!

theelysium
Jul 16, 2012, 11:40 PM
Is the AT&T network THAT bad? I mean even with LTE that it can't handle a small video chat over cellular?

Sounds like a third rate network.

Yes', it is poorly managed and AT&T is a bunch of greedy bastards!

cvaldes
Jul 16, 2012, 11:41 PM
Is the AT&T network THAT bad? I mean even with LTE that it can't handle a small video chat over cellular?

Sounds like a third rate network.
No, no, AT&T's network isn't *that* bad. Well, at least usually not.

Well, at least when the network has a very light load.

They do allow third-party video conferencing services like Skype, fring, Tango, etc. over 3G cellular data connections.

That said, it's not like any American mobile operator runs a decent network. Even a country like Sweden -- which has a very similar population density to the USA -- has way better cellular service.

Let's not even begin to discuss countries like Japan or South Korea...

ethana
Jul 16, 2012, 11:41 PM
I will most likely be switching to Verizon when 4G LTE iPhone 5 is out. AT&T doesn't have 4G LTE in Seattle yet and won't at the time of the iPhone 5 release. This is just ANOTHER reason in a long list that I will switch.

I have been an AT&T Wireless -> Cingular -> AT&T customer for over 8 years. Time to put an end to this madness.

iBreatheApple
Jul 16, 2012, 11:42 PM
Screw you, AT&T.

luqtotheman
Jul 16, 2012, 11:42 PM
Typical, I saw this coming the second the keynote came out for iOS 6

Any way that AT&T can dig its hands into customers pockets it will. It's like people haven't been using Skype to video chat all along.

bidwalj
Jul 16, 2012, 11:42 PM
This is why I love Verizon's new plans. It's like they are saying, "Pick how many gigs you want and use it however you like, we don't care."

It's how any carrier SHOULD handle it any way considering they are capping you.

But I have a theory, perhaps the people that are receiving this message probably still have unlimited data plans.

I'm on an AT&T capped plan and have not received this message after 6 4G FaceTime calls. (I'm on Beta 3)

Verizon does this but for many, the new plans cost more. I'm sure AT&T would happily start offering the more expensive plans with all these features built in but the same people here will be complaining how the new plans are a rip and they won't switch. At the end of the day, everyone will have to pay more and expect less data.

castlema
Jul 16, 2012, 11:43 PM
it's 2012, why are american carriers so behind the rest of the world?

A naked lust for profit that would shame a Ferengi. Why do they do this? Because they can. They know that while people may complain they will never stop using their smartphones no matter how expensive it gets.

Pyrrhic Victory
Jul 16, 2012, 11:44 PM
Ranking the world's most disgraceful companies:

1. BP
2. Wal-Mart
3. AT&T

iLilana
Jul 16, 2012, 11:45 PM
Paying for data and facetime/skyping which is data based is double billing. **** you AT&T. Someone gonna take you to court I hope. Thats like paying for facetime on top on my home internet.

castlema
Jul 16, 2012, 11:46 PM
Paying for tethering/hotspot and FaceTime are simply consumer abuse, pure and simple. Aside from grandfathered unlimited accounts, which can be restricted, there is simply no justification for requiring users to pay fees for features that will encourage users to consume more data and pay overage fee.

Sure there is: this is America, that which makes profit is by definition good. That which makes more profit is even better.

NeroAZ
Jul 16, 2012, 11:46 PM
I bought my iPhone 4, the day it was available, so my contract was up with ATT June 24th, and i'm currently month to month, and they unlocked it for me.

The more **** like this that I see about ATT it just disgusts me. I've been very happy with verizon on my iPad 3rd gen. I'll seriously consider them for the new iPhone when it comes out.

**** ATT!

duddy
Jul 16, 2012, 11:48 PM
Verizon does this but for many, the new plans cost more. I'm sure AT&T would happily start offering the more expensive plans with all these features built in but the same people here will be complaining how the new plans are a rip and they won't switch. At the end of the day, everyone will have to pay more and expect less data.

It only seems that way because angry customers are more vocal. I can say for certain that the new Share Everything plans actually are saving more people money than it is costing more. Seriously, by a lot.

Really, the only ones it's costing more for is families who have more basic phones than smart phones. But that scenario is becoming incredibly rare now and those customers are allowed to keep their old plans anyway. I have customers who are saving upwards of $180 a month. Plus gaining the comfort of not having to count minutes or texts, and being able to share a large bucket of data however they want.

pk7
Jul 16, 2012, 11:49 PM
July 20, 2013 can't get here fast enough. With LTE far better than AT&T's in my area, and with all of these stupid charges, I'm ready to go to Verizon. I'm not saying that Verizon doesn't institute outrageous fees as well (remember the "convenience fee" fiasco?), but I'm fed up with AT&T's greed.

castlema
Jul 16, 2012, 11:54 PM
It only seems that way because angry customers are more vocal. I can say for certain that the new Share Everything plans actually are saving more people money than it is costing more. Seriously, by a lot.

Really, the only ones it's costing more for is families who have more basic phones than smart phones. But that scenario is becoming incredibly rare now and those customers are allowed to keep their old plans anyway. I have customers who are saving upwards of $180 a month. Plus gaining the comfort of not having to count minutes or texts, and being able to share a large bucket of data however they want.

Even the 1GB Share Everything would cost us more money. We have two iPhones and rarely use more than 500GB of data a month, we use less than 200 minutes per month and the only text messages are the spam ones we get against our will so the Share Everything Plan would cost us an extra $30/month

hspace
Jul 16, 2012, 11:55 PM
Are there any third-party video chat apps for iOS yet? If so, do they work over 3G?

Yes, "Tango" works. It also allows video calls to Android phones. (if they have video chat capability)

This is so ridiculous. As soon as the next iPhone is out, I'm dumping AT&T for Verizon. As a bonus, I'll even get decent coverage outside of the city!

Doc750
Jul 16, 2012, 11:56 PM
JB and done ... FU AT&T

duddy
Jul 16, 2012, 11:58 PM
Even the 1GB Share Everything would cost us more money. We have two iPhones and rarely use more than 500GB of data a month, we use less than 200 minutes per month and the only text messages are the spam ones we get against our will so the Share Everything Plan would cost us an extra $30/month

Which plan are you on now?

Carlanga
Jul 17, 2012, 12:00 AM
Ohh AT&T, you penny pincher youuu.

falcora
Jul 17, 2012, 12:02 AM
I have no problem facetiming on 3G with iOS 6.0 beta 3. I do subscribe to the 5 GB hotspot plan though.

rnbgrilla
Jul 17, 2012, 12:08 AM
Are there any third-party video chat apps for iOS yet? If so, do they work over 3G?


yes there are many, here just to name a few

tango, oovoo, skype, yahoo messager,.... ect.

all of them work wifi/3G/4G/LTE

castlema
Jul 17, 2012, 12:13 AM
Which plan are you on now?

We have 700 shared minutes, no text plan and 300MB data per month on each phone

euphemus
Jul 17, 2012, 12:15 AM
If anyone from Rogers in Canada is reading this and thinking about pulling a similar stunt, please hold my ****.

motorazr
Jul 17, 2012, 12:20 AM
Ok ... this is ridiculous if they won't let us use FaceTime.

Seriously, it's bad enough I have to pay extra to tether (mind you I pay for the data in the first place... so wtf).... but to pay extra to use the data for FaceTime, too? They're going to need to bundle it with tethering at the same price you're already paying or something.

Either that or people will find a way to use it unrestricted (ie. FaceTime via. computer on your tethered network..? kinda gets around them....sorta).

l.w41sh
Jul 17, 2012, 12:22 AM
I hope AT&T sees this!

I will switch too it this is true!

Just tested and mine works.

Maybe once I toggle it off and on it won't.

strausd
Jul 17, 2012, 12:22 AM
Seriously, how are we not going to be able to use the data WE pay for the way we want to use it?

Gosh, what ever happened to freedom in this country.

l.w41sh
Jul 17, 2012, 12:24 AM
Mine works...
???

Xenomorph
Jul 17, 2012, 12:27 AM
Awesome. Just like tethering, AT&T wants to TRIPLE bill for the same data!

1) Charge for the data.
2) Charge to actually use the data (tethering, FaceTime, etc).
3) Charge "overage fee" for using data.

Qutaiba
Jul 17, 2012, 12:29 AM
i have ios 6 and AT&T and it ON so whoever came up with this thing is just trying to make something outta nothing

maconservative
Jul 17, 2012, 12:33 AM
Apple bought out T-Mo? :rolleyes:

...and call it iMobile

:D

Qutaiba
Jul 17, 2012, 12:36 AM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3921751995417&set=p.3921751995417&type=1&ref=nf

touchtone561
Jul 17, 2012, 12:39 AM
Plain and simple AT&T hates Apple.

AT&T does not like iOS devices or Users. They want to make the iOS experience the worst it can possibly be, so iOS users will migrate off the network.

There is no other explanation.

This is not the first time AT&T has been at war with a vendor, have you notice how few Motorola phones are on AT&T, after the Razr exclusivity they fell out too. Seriously, most stores don't even have active iPhone and iPad on display, just some cardboard cut out.

The problem is the iPhone/iOS money pot is so big they can't truly say goodbye. This is just a bad romance, and the users are the children caught up in the (separation) divorce.

If Adele was an american she would be singing about AT&T instead of that guy. Apple :apple: isn't helping either - constantly changing the SIM design with each major release.:eek:

satyrica
Jul 17, 2012, 12:40 AM
That said, it's not like any American mobile operator runs a decent network. Even a country like Sweden -- which has a very similar population density to the USA -- has way better cellular service.

Let's not even begin to discuss countries like Japan or South Korea...

Sweden is also about the same size as California. It's the infrastructure, not the amount of people. AT&T has to manage and install hardware/infrastructure for the entire USA. I'm not defending them, but yours is not a valid comparison.

DarkGiftRadio
Jul 17, 2012, 12:40 AM
I wouldn't expect anything less from AT&T. I was using MyFi when I had my old iPhone jailbroken to tether to my iPad while I was out and about till AT&T put the kabash on that trying to double charge me for the data that I was already paying for.

Now as expected, whether rumor or not, I wouldn't put it past these money hungry crooks to try and stuff a little more cash in their pockets at our expense. Now is the time to stand up to these corporate *******s and speak our minds. I'm seriously thinking about another carrier because of all of AT&T's data games.

They can try and double charge us for things we are already paying for and the have us in the full nelson making us say uncle. It would be so much nicer if we were the ones making the demands. Here's one, I only used 154 of my 900 monthly minutes, how about a pro-rated bill or credit for the 746 minutes that I did not use? Yeah, as good as that sounds in theory, you would never see that happening.

I can dream can't I?

satyrica
Jul 17, 2012, 12:42 AM
try resetting network settings
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=15263082&postcount=310

if you don't mind losing the ability.

arn

You might still have functionality with beta 3 (facetime over 3g/4g), but as soon as your network settings reset, you will NOT. :mad:

Jimbo47
Jul 17, 2012, 12:44 AM
Unfortunately the chances of getting out of a contract because of this would be slim to none. You aren't being forced to use FaceTime over 3G, you can simply just use it over wifi. So, any extra charge to use it over 3G would be considered optional which probably wouldn't get you out of a contract. Though there is always a loophole.

WeegieMac
Jul 17, 2012, 12:46 AM
I'm on O2 and done a 3G FaceTime call last night.

redbeard331
Jul 17, 2012, 12:51 AM
Ranking the world's most disgraceful companies:

1. BP
2. Wal-Mart
3. AT&T


I agree with your thinking, but Monsanto is still #1, killing for profit does top charging for FaceTime over cellular..:eek:

iansilv
Jul 17, 2012, 12:53 AM
Sprint will not do this. Sprint will let anyone use FaceTime over cellular. If you live in an area where Sprint has good coverage, switch to Sprint. I will be now that Verizon has stated that I cannot keep my unlimited data if I want to purchased a subsidized phone when my contract is up.

duddy
Jul 17, 2012, 12:53 AM
We have 700 shared minutes, no text plan and 300MB data per month on each phone

Oh OK. I thought maybe you both had $30 data plans, not the $15 one. Yeah, the new plans would for sure cost more for you.

spacepower7
Jul 17, 2012, 12:56 AM
Did it every occur to anyone that that AT&T put this in place to require explicit user comfirmation and acknowledgement of the data usage that the device would incur? It sounds like they are covering their back legally.

Instead of a parent saying omg my child just used their whole data for the month in the first 4 hours, with 29 days left to go?


Didn't read all 5 pages of posts but everyone is making assumptions. So if AT&T was smart they'd clarify the issue. Of course, I won't assume that AT&T is smart or customer friendly.

AppleScruff1
Jul 17, 2012, 01:02 AM
Ohh AT&T, you penny pincher youuu.

They're getting more like Apple everyday. All they worry about is the bottom line.

iMaconApple
Jul 17, 2012, 01:09 AM
the only thing im still with att is my 30$ unlimited data.. dam you att dam you..not that this affects me but this is for others.. facetime over data networks gets chewed up really quick plus att data plans are a joke and prices suck. in other country data is data they let you use how ever you want its part of your plan..

lostngone
Jul 17, 2012, 01:10 AM
*Please correct me if I am wrong

Apple is not completely free of blame here. FaceTime is nothing more then an IP based connection they are doing something in iOS to notify the carrier you are attempting to make a FaceTime call. Apple could just strip that code out and tell AT&T to get bent.

mac1984user
Jul 17, 2012, 01:14 AM
ATT trying to monetize yet another service? Hardly surprising. For all those jumping ship to another carrier, it's just a matter of time before all of them are doing this. To be honest, I'm surprised they haven't tried to 'work out a deal' with Skype to bring an end to both voice and video calls over 3G yet.

Juan007
Jul 17, 2012, 01:16 AM
*Please correct me if I am wrong

Apple is not completely free of blame here. FaceTime is nothing more then an IP based connection they are doing something in iOS to notify the carrier you are attempting to make a FaceTime call. Apple could just strip that code out and tell AT&T to get bent.

You are wrong -- look up "stateful packet inspection". It is as you said just another IP based connection, and can be snooped just like any IP based connection.

lostngone
Jul 17, 2012, 01:21 AM
You are wrong -- look up "stateful packet inspection". It is as you said just another IP based connection, and can be snooped just like any IP based connection.

If that is the case why does 3G Unrestrictor, Vtok and Skype work?

I am not saying they couldn't do this but so far they are not(yet).
Also deep packet inspection can be defeated with simple encryption.

OtherJesus
Jul 17, 2012, 01:22 AM
Meh.

thekeyring
Jul 17, 2012, 01:26 AM
They sell people data plans and then worry that everyone wants to use their data plans?

BC2009
Jul 17, 2012, 01:29 AM
I can't seem to remember the last time AT&T did something to delight its customers. Best they have done is made some problems of their own causing a little less bad. For example:

- adding cell towers in NYC to make their completely unusable service only kinda unusable

- raising their throttling ceiling from top 5% of users to a minimum of 2 GB to 3GB on 3G and 5GB on 4G when they originally offered unlimited data

- allowing Slingbox app to work over 3G after denying it for no reason even though the app throttled itself on 3G to prevent excessive bandwidth usage

- allowing tethering on iPhone after not allowing it at all, but still requiring an additional fee and giving up your unlimited data plan

So now they are going to allow FaceTime over 3G after blocking it for years but they are going to charge for it. Even their iPad plans are blocking tethering.

What other business can piss on their customers so much and still turn a profit? It's a clear indication of monopoly power being exerted and the DOJ needs to step in. I am regretting my two-year contract and will be shopping for a new carrier if FaceTime becomes an up charge from AT&T.

What's next? Upcharging for Pandora or YouTube?

Steve.P.JobsFan
Jul 17, 2012, 01:29 AM
The money they receive from "FaceTime over Cellular" subscribers will most likely be used for maintaining the fire in hell.


Oh, and don't forget about their new logo!


http://www.tmonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ATT-Devil.jpg

miamialley
Jul 17, 2012, 01:33 AM
It's my data, I pay for it, let me use in anyway that I choose!

Data is data....i don't get it.

Yeah, seriously. Imagine if we paid for text messages as data and not text messages? So freaking greedy.

BC2009
Jul 17, 2012, 01:33 AM
They sell people data plans and then worry that everyone wants to use their data plans?

It goes to show just how insufficient their network is. They have no confidence in it.

koban4max
Jul 17, 2012, 01:35 AM
If you guys have problem with this, talk to Tim Cook. Anyone recall unlock phone? yes? yes? do the same thing. Have bunch of people email Tim.

Mjmar
Jul 17, 2012, 01:36 AM
lol at the AT&T statement...

Che Castro
Jul 17, 2012, 01:43 AM
**** AT&T as a staff, record label, and as a mother ****ing crew

iMikeT
Jul 17, 2012, 01:47 AM
I'm only counting the days until the new iPhone (5) is released and my contract is finished with AT&T. I can't wait to jump ship.

HMI
Jul 17, 2012, 01:50 AM
Fees, fees everywhere.


3G Unrestrictor it is then.

It's not a fee; It's a "TAX"

FelixDerKater
Jul 17, 2012, 01:53 AM
I have a different theory here...

I don't think AT&T is intending to charge for FaceTime. Instead, they probably want people to opt in as a CYA, to be able to say, "We warned you!" when people get huge data bills from having used the service. This allows them to cover bases up front. Call in and be warned that the data usage will be extreme. Then, do as you wish, but don't call them back acting shocked when you get a hefty bill at the end of the month.

Just a theory...

Kris404
Jul 17, 2012, 01:54 AM
I totally blame Apple for giving in like this to AT&T.

Also, not sure what Mark Gurman meant by FaceTime uses large amounts of data? Talk with numbers please.

Anti-Lucifer
Jul 17, 2012, 01:58 AM
This is the stupidest thing ever.

You have one advanced LTE iphone but you can't use any advance features because it is basically crippled by the carrier.

I stand by my previous threads regarding apple to create their own network for their own iPhone. These carriers are just cock blocking flagrantly. I just wish AT&T would die off and never come back.

faroZ06
Jul 17, 2012, 02:02 AM
I'd never even consider doing a video call over 4G, but the idea of restricting what we can use the data for is just stupid.

----------

Yeah, seriously. Imagine if we paid for text messages as data and not text messages? So freaking greedy.

SMS is a humungous ripoff that I just avoid in hopes that it will slowly die out.

----------

The money they receive from "FaceTime over Cellular" subscribers will most likely be used for maintaining the fire in ****.


Oh, and don't forget about their new logo!


Image (http://www.tmonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ATT-Devil.jpg)

If you don't like their service, don't buy it. It's not about greed.

efktd
Jul 17, 2012, 02:05 AM
screw you, i'm unlimited b****.

mdntcallr
Jul 17, 2012, 02:12 AM
It's amazing how many ways AT&T can think of to screw their customers. From doing away with unlimited data plans to now this, possibly charging extra for FaceTime, even with unlimited data plans? Time will tell

faroZ06
Jul 17, 2012, 02:14 AM
It's amazing how many ways AT&T can think of to screw their customers. From doing away with unlimited data plans to now this, possibly charging extra for FaceTime, even with unlimited data plans? Time will tell

They don't have a monopoly, so I don't think they can do anything "wrong". But they can lose customers. I really don't care if they limit my 4G; in fact, I'd like them to so I don't accidentally chew up my 200MB plan quickly. On the other hand, someone with unlimited data will be severely disadvantaged.

kevindosi
Jul 17, 2012, 02:18 AM
at least you'll have the option. i'm on sprint in houston and can't even stream my itunes match library, forget about video chatting.

ajcadoo
Jul 17, 2012, 02:18 AM
(this is why we need the down-vote button back)

Bring it back for front page articles only. It isn't needed in the regular forums.

doelcm82
Jul 17, 2012, 02:21 AM
Seriously, how are we not going to be able to use the data WE pay for the way we want to use it?

Gosh, what ever happened to freedom in this country.

If AT&T wanted to build a cell tower in your back yard, wouldn't you want them to pay you for the privilege? Or would you just say "go ahead, it' a free country"?

You have the freedom to not use FaceTime. You have the freedom to move your account to another carrier. If you can find a better deal, that's what you should do.

Your nostalgia for a freer country in the past is misguided. Old-timers will tell you that real freedom was when we didn't carry personal communication devices on us at all times. And we used the POTS phones in our homes sparingly because long distance was ridiculously expensive. Less than twenty years ago, access to the Internet was something you paid for by the hour, and it was so slow it could barely handle pictures, much less video.

Face Time in those days meant you were standing only a few feet away from each other.

Fruit Cake
Jul 17, 2012, 02:21 AM
Nickel and diming all the way, AT&T an(other) eBay company?

thejdubb02
Jul 17, 2012, 02:33 AM
You honestly think AT&T will give you some sort of discount if you are an iPhone user and don't use Facetime on their network? You will continue paying the same amount...what's not to like!?

Bottom line is this isn't AT&T's feature. To charge for it is borderline illegal.

Now if they said "you can disable Facetime over 3/4G and receive a $5 discount" that would be more palatable. To simply charge an above and beyond fee for Apple's feature is seriously shady.

Might not be their feature however it is their network and therefore they can do as they please.

For all who think AT&T is crap, they have to make more money year over year for their stock holders being a publicly traded company. And if every one that commented left AT&T the amount of new activated lines a day would more then compensate for the annoyance in hearing you all complain.

There are plenty of other carriers out there. If you don't like it leave it.

QQ more.

Whorehay
Jul 17, 2012, 02:33 AM
Well, if they charge for it a-la-carte on top of our data plan while using our data like a "$4.99 per line add-on, uses your existing data plan," then I'll be pissed.

But if they do something reasonable like a $30 unlimited family FaceTime over 3G add-on plan where we have a separate data allotment for FaceTime only calls, I'd probably bite since I wouldn't be too comfortable with using FaceTime too often with the limited amount of regular data we have.

Fofer
Jul 17, 2012, 02:35 AM
But I have a theory, perhaps the people that are receiving this message probably still have unlimited data plans.

I'm on an AT&T capped plan and have not received this message after 6 4G FaceTime calls. (I'm on Beta 3)

I agree with this theory. Just like folks on unlimited plans can't do tethering, they need to switch to a capped plan and pay extra for it, the same will apply to FaceTime over cellular. If you want to do that, you'll have to switch off the unlimited plan.

That's my guess, at least...

NY Guitarist
Jul 17, 2012, 02:46 AM
God AT&T sucks. Wish I could change providers.

I was pissed off at ATT already. Now more insult added.

tekboi
Jul 17, 2012, 03:02 AM
If AT&T wanted to build a cell tower in your back yard, wouldn't you want them to pay you for the privilege? Or would you just say "go ahead, it' a free country"?

You have the freedom to not use FaceTime. You have the freedom to move your account to another carrier. If you can find a better deal, that's what you should do.

Your nostalgia for a freer country in the past is misguided. Old-timers will tell you that real freedom was when we didn't carry personal communication devices on us at all times. And we used the POTS phones in our homes sparingly because long distance was ridiculously expensive. Less than twenty years ago, access to the Internet was something you paid for by the hour, and it was so slow it could barely handle pictures, much less video.

Face Time in those days meant you were standing only a few feet away from each other.

Oh please. There is no way to justify the BS that has become common AT&T practices. That whole story you wrote was pointless and totally irrelevant to the topic being discussed here. People like you are the reason companies like AT&T make so much money screwing customers over. Youre perfectly content wiping your chin and walking away.

rworne
Jul 17, 2012, 03:05 AM
Works fine for me too.. Maybe unlimited data plans are exempt from this?

The optimist in me thinks the "call to activate" may be for AT&T to warn users about overrunning their data... heh, yeh.

I think this is going to be a stick they are going to use on the grandfathered unlimited users - much like the tethering plans.

Those on limited plans probably will have this restriction removed.

pandamonia
Jul 17, 2012, 03:07 AM
American Carriers = WORST IN WORLD

They would charge you for the air you breath if they could.

Your data rates are a insane.

Tmobile here just launched Sim only 12 month contract £21 a month with unlimited everything and tethering is free. thats with 20% tax!

thejdubb02
Jul 17, 2012, 03:08 AM
Oh please. There is no way to justify the BS that has become common AT&T practices. That whole story you wrote was pointless and totally irrelevant to the topic being discussed here. People like you are the reason companies like AT&T make so much money screwing customers over. Youre perfectly content wiping your chin and walking away.

Are you an AT&T customer? If so you are the same as everyone else who is complaining about Al this but at the end of the doesn't have the balls to leave for another company thereby also contributing. :'(

Northgrove
Jul 17, 2012, 03:24 AM
As if AT&T had a finger involved in developing FaceTime. Such BS.

"Watch Apple develop a new thing. Notice that it seems useful. Charge for it!"

WTF

This traffic surely doesn't cost them more than other data either.

----------

If AT&T wanted to build a cell tower in your back yard, wouldn't you want them to pay you for the privilege? Or would you just say "go ahead, it' a free country"?
So using FaceTime on AT&T is a "privilege"?

I assume installing an app on their network is too, then. Should we get an AT&T tax for installing iOS apps on their network? Just like how they bump the price for another feature they weren't involved in developing?

nickhutson
Jul 17, 2012, 03:25 AM
Wow - another low for US Network providers...

Pukey
Jul 17, 2012, 03:35 AM
Yep and if ATT thinks I'm paying extra they can kiss my ass. I hope to god T-MO gets the iPhone this year. I'll take my 4 iPhone family somewhere else. I have not had any issues with ATT service wise, but this will push me to another carrier.

I'm pretty sure T-Mobile has the iPhone, or do you mean it's not for sure they'll get the new one this year?

Judas1
Jul 17, 2012, 03:53 AM
Since we're all in agreement that this is nothing but disgustingly absurd greed. Lets talk about another practice thats stupid but sadly, we have accepted it. Charge for incoming text messages. How come we have to pay when someone spams our inbox? Just stupid. Practices here are getting more and more ridiculous.:mad:

baryon
Jul 17, 2012, 03:53 AM
Mobile operators are the biggest jerks. That's why I only use pay-as-you-go.

Ballis
Jul 17, 2012, 03:54 AM
Americans being screwed over by carriers again. Nothing new, but still sad. This kind of data use discrimination will never happen in EU fortunately. Dont even think it would be legal.

bushido
Jul 17, 2012, 03:59 AM
such a rip off. so u guys have to pay for the actual data, tethering and to use facetime. are they gonna restrict iMessage any time soon too?

freakin nuts! its all data

but the worst is that the US seems to still charge for incoming text or calls? thats so 1998

dspalton
Jul 17, 2012, 03:59 AM
o2 UK dont seam to event have the option on beta 3

dave

unlinked
Jul 17, 2012, 04:21 AM
Since we're all in agreement that this is nothing but disgustingly absurd greed. Lets talk about another practice thats stupid but sadly, we have accepted it. Charge for incoming text messages. How come we have to pay when someone spams our inbox? Just stupid. Practices here are getting more and more ridiculous.:mad:

Paying for incoming texts isn't any more crazy than paying for incoming calls.
Mind you both are crazy. Only in the US of A. :cool:

Kariya
Jul 17, 2012, 04:22 AM
o2 UK dont seam to event have the option on beta 3

dave

They do...for now.

NedBookPro
Jul 17, 2012, 04:25 AM
I hope AT&T sees this!

I will switch too it this is true!

Just tested and mine works.

Maybe once I toggle it off and on it won't.

Go on... toggle it! We dare you!

sean5900
Jul 17, 2012, 04:26 AM
Why am I not surprised. For some reason I get the feeling that whatever AT&T is going to require it will involve dropping your unlimited data plan if you want to use it :mad:

NedBookPro
Jul 17, 2012, 04:32 AM
*Please correct me if I am wrong

Apple is not completely free of blame here. FaceTime is nothing more then an IP based connection they are doing something in iOS to notify the carrier you are attempting to make a FaceTime call. Apple could just strip that code out and tell AT&T to get bent.

Somebody posted something earlier about apple having an agreement with AT&T with regards to voip. You could understand that AT&T would be hurting a lot if people were exclusively doing voip calls instead of mobile calls.
I'm not defending AT&T, it just means they need to modify their business model because no doubt voip is the future and people are going to use it one way or the other to make more cost effective calls.

All that being said, if you folks are paying for say 5GB of data, you should be allowed to use that as you please without extra cost - it would be unethical for any carrier to do otherwise.

Pukey
Jul 17, 2012, 04:37 AM
Might not be their feature however it is their network and therefore they can do as they please.

For all who think AT&T is crap, they have to make more money year over year for their stock holders being a publicly traded company. And if every one that commented left AT&T the amount of new activated lines a day would more then compensate for the annoyance in hearing you all complain.

There are plenty of other carriers out there. If you don't like it leave it.

QQ more.
Well shoot, was this posted by someone who works for AT&T? Don't forget, it's in large part due to the stockholders, shareholders, stakeholders and the like that got this country into the fine financial mess we're in.
I feel sorry for the people who think money and power are worthwhile reasons for living.
What happened to the roots of sharing ideas for the good of all that our country was founded on? Why does everyone just assume the way things are (where the very few profit off the many) is the only way to do things...just because it's been that way for so long? Time for people to get their head out of the sand!

NedBookPro
Jul 17, 2012, 04:40 AM
Your nostalgia for a freer country in the past is misguided. Old-timers will tell you that real freedom was when we didn't carry personal communication devices on us at all times. And we used the POTS phones in our homes sparingly because long distance was ridiculously expensive. Less than twenty years ago, access to the Internet was something you paid for by the hour, and it was so slow it could barely handle pictures, much less video.

Face Time in those days meant you were standing only a few feet away from each other.

I'm an old timer, and this is correct in every aspect. I clearly remember those days.
Ahh the days of a 1200 baud modem, archie and gopher servers and an internet landscape completely free of advertising (absolutely NONE).
That 1200 baud modem was cutting edge.
My god... I just realized I *am* old.

george-brooks
Jul 17, 2012, 04:41 AM
Oh my god. ATT is the devil! Seriously! If I pay for 5 gigs (which I do) I will use my 5 gigs HOW I PLEASE! (includes tethering, so cool your jets on that one).

US wireless is the worst.

Perhaps the highest tier data plans will include FaceTime as well as tethering, and the people on lower plans will have to pay extra?

bushido
Jul 17, 2012, 04:51 AM
jeeze i could never afford an iPhone let alone its plan in the US

here in germany i got the iPhone 4S for free and pay $35 for unlimited data incl. tethering, voip and get wifi hotspots for free + unlimited text (lol incoming text charges, what even .... ?) and this is already considered expensive.
you can simply walk into any super market and buy a prepaid with unlimited internet (trotteled after a certain amount) for not more than 10 bucks

the EU laws and standards to have its advantages sometimes

Pukey
Jul 17, 2012, 05:06 AM
It would seem the US could stand to learn a thing or two from the EU.

SPUY767
Jul 17, 2012, 05:12 AM
They would dime you for FaceTime while Skype, Oovoo and others are free? What the heck is going on? It's time for the DoJ to step in and put give them what they deserve!

Also, WTH is Apple allowing this? Screw AT&T and give the chance to another carrier who's not a greedy bastard.

Yeah! The government should step in and tell private companies what to do. Vote with your dollars. That's how capitalism works. We seem to expect Uncle Sam to ride in on a white horse and save us every time we are inconvenienced, not realizing that every time it happens, we are a little less free than before. The government needn't do anything. If you're unsatisfied with how AT&T chooses to run their business, send your $ elsewhere. If you've signed a 2 year contract to get a free phone, you weren't compelled to. You signed it of your own volition and you either need to pay the fee or suck it up.

----------

jeeze i could never afford an iPhone let alone its plan in the US

here in germany i got the iPhone 4S for free and pay $35 for unlimited data incl. tethering, voip and get wifi hotspots for free + unlimited text (lol incoming text charges, what even .... ?) and this is already considered expensive.
you can simply walk into any super market and buy a prepaid with unlimited internet (trotteled after a certain amount) for not more than 10 bucks

the EU laws and standards to have its advantages sometimes

'Cause the EU isn't a heartbeat away from dissolving.

penajmz
Jul 17, 2012, 05:17 AM
I have been with AT&T since the first day the first iPhone came out. I think is time to change carriers.

Pukey
Jul 17, 2012, 05:34 AM
I have been with AT&T since the first day the first iPhone came out. I think is time to change carriers.

I would say you've, "done your time"! ;D

macnerd93
Jul 17, 2012, 05:56 AM
of course :)

AT&T Charge for everything. I'm so glad I'm with Three UK. Unlimited internet with no limits. WOOT

CaryMacGuy
Jul 17, 2012, 06:04 AM
Hmm..so happy to be a Verizon customer :-)

unplugme71
Jul 17, 2012, 06:10 AM
Everyone is knocking on AT&T for this, but have you thought maybe AT&T will offer unlimited FaceTime calls for $6.99/mo that doesn't use up your regular data allotment? Or a 'pay as you go' alternative per minute

Jeez!!!

Abazigal
Jul 17, 2012, 06:19 AM
Everyone is knocking on AT&T for this, but have you thought maybe AT&T will offer unlimited FaceTime calls for $6.99/mo that doesn't use up your regular data allotment? Or a 'pay as you go' alternative per minute

Jeez!!!

What would be the point? The thing is that it is another option for people underutilising their data plan, and At&t seems to be against that. So it is okay for people to use their allotted data for streaming youtube, but not talking with other people?

Facetime with video turned off would basically make it a low-data usage calling alternative. Your suggestion makes it indistinguishable from normal voice plans. Why even bother? :confused:

bushido
Jul 17, 2012, 06:20 AM
'Cause the EU isn't a heartbeat away from dissolving.

dont believe everything u read. germany is doing just fine, its those lazy southern states with their siestas and all that, having problems :p

unlinked
Jul 17, 2012, 06:26 AM
dont believe everything u read. germany is doing just fine, its those lazy southern states with their siestas and all that, having problems :p

You Germans and your crazy sense of humour.

mcarvin
Jul 17, 2012, 06:34 AM
Has there been any word that AT&T is going to impose the same fee for Android phones?

wkadamsjr
Jul 17, 2012, 06:35 AM
In a way, this kind of makes sense. Think of how many ignorant people will use FaceTime over 3G/4G without knowing it uses their data.

Most people here at Macrumors would be aware, but I assure you the average user is not. Who do you think will have to deal with all those complaints when customers are going over their data plans and having to pay fees?

Don't get me wrong, I personally dislike it (and will be switching to Spring for unlimited data when the next iPhone is release). Just playing devil's advocate.

Pukey
Jul 17, 2012, 06:40 AM
Everyone is knocking on AT&T for this, but have you thought maybe AT&T will offer unlimited FaceTime calls for $6.99/mo that doesn't use up your regular data allotment? Or a 'pay as you go' alternative per minute

Jeez!!!

It's not just AT&T man, it's our entire rotten system of the common working class person being bled dry by the corporations every chance those bloodsuckers get. Then we're just supposed to accept and tolerate this BS!? I say thee, nay.
If only more groups like the creators of LINUX had the support of the majority of the community, then we might have a low cost Ubuntu phone anyone could afford. With majority support and the resources that would follow, the possibilities would be endless. I dare say a phone even better than the iPhone.

*Calypso*
Jul 17, 2012, 06:41 AM
Just to make this real clear: It is Apple's fault to even allow carriers to control certain features of iOS. It was Apple's decision to hold back FaceTime over Cellular until now and they are to blame if carriers can interfere with the functionality of YOUR phone. Same goes for Personal Hotspot.

Yes, AT&T are *******s, but they are not actively blocking any data traffic, they are just happily exploiting the power Apple gave them in the first place.

So you guys should not only switch providers, but also post a complaint with Apple saying that you want all iOS features to work no matter if your carrier is happy with them or not.

Technically there are just three types of cellular traffic: voice, SMS and data. Don't let them fool you by splitting data further up into tethering, VoIP, video calls, instant messaging and what not. The fight for network neutrality has only just begun. Overpriced voice calls and SMS are gonna diminish quickly and carriers are gonna do everything in their power to extra-charge you for data use.

cdmoore74
Jul 17, 2012, 06:43 AM
I always thought facetime was one of the coolest features but was held back by Apple. Now AT&T wants to hold it back. Because of the family share plan on Verizon we should be fine. It would be a shame if Verizon sneaks in the same policy because I could see them charging $5 per month per phone just to use facetime which would bring in a good chunk of change. Carriers can see that iPhone users are more willing to pay up for premium features. And no, I'm a Nexus user.

unplugme71
Jul 17, 2012, 06:46 AM
What would be the point? The thing is that it is another option for people underutilising their data plan, and At&t seems to be against that. So it is okay for people to use their allotted data for streaming youtube, but not talking with other people?

Facetime with video turned off would basically make it a low-data usage calling alternative. Your suggestion makes it indistinguishable from normal voice plans. Why even bother? :confused:

If you are a heavy FT user, you don't have to use up all your entire data plan. You can get unlimited FT for an extra one-time fee.

----------

It's not just AT&T man, it's our entire rotten system of the common working class person being bled dry by the corporations every chance those bloodsuckers get. Then we're just supposed to accept and tolerate this BS!? I say thee, nay.
If only more groups like the creators of LINUX had the support of the majority of the community, then we might have a low cost Ubuntu phone anyone could afford. With majority support and the resources that would follow, the possibilities would be endless. I dare say a phone even better than the iPhone.

I agree with you. Everything is over priced to begin with. Not only that, but nothing is made in the US anymore. So they are giving the same service at a reduced expense on their end and not even passing on any savings. AT&T may be an exception, but I'm sure all their equipment is made in China at least.

cdmoore74
Jul 17, 2012, 06:50 AM
Has there been any word that AT&T is going to impose the same fee for Android phones?

I don't think it's the same. In iOS 6 Apple is making facetime more integrated and would appear no different than a typical call other than an indicator telling you it's facetime. I have a Nexus and I'm not aware of any built in native Google App that does the same thing. If there was Apple would have sued already.

Pukey
Jul 17, 2012, 06:50 AM
Just to make this real clear: It is Apple's fault to even allow carriers to control certain features of iOS. It was Apple's decision to hold back FaceTime over Cellular until now and they are to blame if carriers can interfere with the functionality of YOUR phone. Same goes for Personal Hotspot.

Yes, AT&T are *******s, but they are not actively blocking any data traffic, they are just happily exploiting the power Apple gave them in the first place.

So you guys should not only switch providers, but also post a complaint with Apple saying that you want all iOS features to work no matter if your carrier is happy with them or not.

Technically there are just three types of cellular traffic: voice, SMS and data. Don't let them fool you by splitting data further up into tethering, VoIP, video calls, instant messaging and what not!

Good points *Calypso*. I might just post some thoughts to Apple if they are also going to let T-Mobile do whatever they want. I'm planning to go with T-Mobile when the new iPhone comes out.

tigres
Jul 17, 2012, 06:53 AM
Pretty soon nobody will be able to afford the monthly bills on the new tech. Who cares if it can fly if I can't afford to gas to up.

JohnDoe98
Jul 17, 2012, 06:56 AM
It goes to show just how insufficient their network is. They have no confidence in it.

It has nothing to do with the network. They lost a lot of money when Apple introduced iMessage, and they don't want that happening again with FaceTime. They can't go back and charge people for iMessage since it's now too late, but they can charge for FaceTime going forward, and they will.

The lesson they learned is to block any app or device that can cut into their revenue stream. They are opposed to technology improving our service and reducing our costs.

The Phazer
Jul 17, 2012, 07:00 AM
'Cause the EU isn't a heartbeat away from dissolving.

Errr… no, it flat out isn’t….

Even the Euro isn’t particularly near dissolution, and the Euro as a currency and the EU are two entirely different things with different memberships (the UK for example isn’t a Eurozone country but is a member of the EU).

You probably need to seek better news sources.

Meanwhile, back on the subject: the US’s carrier market is broken. Quelle surprise. However, if anyone is going to have to pay for 3G calls it feels distinctly odd for the iPhone not to support the UTMS/3G video calling standard, which is built into network infrastructure and is cross platform… (and to be fair Android does not consistently implement it either, though some manufacturers such as Samsung do).

Small White Car
Jul 17, 2012, 07:03 AM
You honestly think AT&T will give you some sort of discount if you are an iPhone user and don't use Facetime on their network?


Of course not. It's not about prices going down, it's about how they go up in the future.

Let's imagine AT&T charges $10 for FaceTime. Within a year I know Verizon will raise everyone's price by $5 and say "well, we include FaceTime which costs $10 at AT&T, so we're cheaper."

Well, yes, but only if you wanted FaceTime.

I mean, come on, Verizon just did this a few weeks ago. They raised prices for almost everyone by forcing unlimited voice and texts on them and said "but if you bought those on AT&T it would cost more!" Ok, but I don't want those things so I'm glad I'm not forced to buy them.

So wait and see...if you want FaceTime eventually Verizon will be a better bet, but if you don't they'll just use it as an excuse to raise your rates anyway.

This is not about AT&T being good. They both suck. This is about Verizon being worse. Given the choice I'll be sticking with "less worse."


What it is that you smoke so I stay away from it??? :eek:

Explain to me how I'm wrong. Verizon JUST did this trick. Did everyone forget?

JohnDoe98
Jul 17, 2012, 07:14 AM
Everyone is knocking on AT&T for this, but have you thought maybe AT&T will offer unlimited FaceTime calls for $6.99/mo that doesn't use up your regular data allotment? Or a 'pay as you go' alternative per minute

Jeez!!!

Why should we have to add a second data plan for Apps? If we already have a data plan and are happy to use it's allocated data, charing anything more is too much.

So you are going to pay 1$ for Emails,
2$ for Safari,
5$ for iCloud music,
7$ for FaceTime....


That's your idea of an intelligent system?

----------

Yeah! The government should step in and tell private companies what to do. Vote with your dollars. That's how capitalism works. We seem to expect Uncle Sam to ride in on a white horse and save us every time we are inconvenienced, not realizing that every time it happens, we are a little less free than before. The government needn't do anything. If you're unsatisfied with how AT&T chooses to run their business, send your $ elsewhere. If you've signed a 2 year contract to get a free phone, you weren't compelled to. You signed it of your own volition and you either need to pay the fee or suck it up.

Private company using public spectrum? You forget if all the carriers do this crap there is no elsewhere to go since all the spectrum has been allotted to these thieves. It's not like new networks can just pop up, they would have to bid for the spectrum and get all sorts of licensing for the towers.

Now it's pretty simple, if "private" companies want to be allowed to play with public licenses, they have to cater to what the public wants. Government does have a role to play here.

----------

Just to make this real clear: It is Apple's fault to even allow carriers to control certain features of iOS. It was Apple's decision to hold back FaceTime over Cellular until now and they are to blame if carriers can interfere with the functionality of YOUR phone. Same goes for Personal Hotspot.

Yes, AT&T are *******s, but they are not actively blocking any data traffic, they are just happily exploiting the power Apple gave them in the first place.

So you guys should not only switch providers, but also post a complaint with Apple saying that you want all iOS features to work no matter if your carrier is happy with them or not.

Technically there are just three types of cellular traffic: voice, SMS and data. Don't let them fool you by splitting data further up into tethering, VoIP, video calls, instant messaging and what not. The fight for network neutrality has only just begun. Overpriced voice calls and SMS are gonna diminish quickly and carriers are gonna do everything in their power to extra-charge you for data use.

So let's play this game. Let us imagine Apple says, f it, we add in all features. Now the carriers say F Apple, no more iphones on our networks. Now what?

----------

If you are a heavy FT user, you don't have to use up all your entire data plan. You can get unlimited FT for an extra one-time fee.

The point is there should be no fee.

SuperMatt
Jul 17, 2012, 07:14 AM
Honestly I kind of LIKE having this broken out so I have the chance to not pay for it.

The fact that Verizon now makes you pay for unlimited voice and texts no matter what you want makes them a non-starter for me. I kind of like the idea of a carrier that lets me not pay for certain things. (And this certainly is one of those things that I wouldn't pay for.)

You can opt out of texting altogether. I do that, and use one of the App Store's free texting apps for when I need it, and iMessage to contact my iPhone-using friends.

samcraig
Jul 17, 2012, 07:14 AM
Apple is going to hate this. As ATT has a very significant chunk of iPhone users in the US - the public will opt to use skype/tango or some other video conferencing instead of making Apple's facetime ubiquitous for video chatting. It will be like Apple didn't enable facetime for 3g at all for a huge demographic. And *if* other carriers follow suit now or later - it's also very bad.

The other issue with FaceTime is that it's still only Apple to Apple devices. Apple hasn't released the technology as they originally had said they would (I know - they could still do it). This already means a limited use case for FaceTime and knowing what device the person on the other end has.

The advantage to Skype and Tango right now might not be as amazing call quality - but you can do it anywhere and it's device agnostic.

fsck-y dingo
Jul 17, 2012, 07:19 AM
Well that's horrible. I'm using FaceTime with 3G Unrestrictor and it's not really affecting my data plan at all. For those who may not know FaceTime uses about 3MB per minute. At least the last time I looked it up.

I bought the iPhone 4 on release day. My contract is officially up and my reasons for staying with AT&T are dwindling by the day. :)

JoJoCal19
Jul 17, 2012, 07:20 AM
Every time Verizon does something that pisses me off, I look at moving to AT&T as an alternative, and every time they do something equally as stupid, whether it's matching Verizon's prices or changes exactly or things like this. It's no wonder I just stay put.

mantan
Jul 17, 2012, 07:23 AM
People actually use FaceTime? The novelty wore off for me the first week...

JohnDoe98
Jul 17, 2012, 07:25 AM
Apple is going to hate this.

Yes, and Apple probably also wanted unlimited plans to stay, but the sad fact is they can't do anything about it, unless, which won't happen, they setup their own infrastructure to compete with the carriers.

samcraig
Jul 17, 2012, 07:27 AM
btw - does anyone know if this is account based (sorry for not reading the whole thread..)

IE - is the message popping up for everyone - or just users with unlimited data.

I have always maintained that those "blessed" with being grandfathered into the unlimited plan - I can understand ATT charging for tethering and something like facetime. It could be a huge drain on resources.

However - if you buy "x" gigs a month - it shouldn't matter at all how you eat that up. Tethering, facetime, whatever.

For a restaurant - it's one thing to restrict the all you can eat buffet with some rules so you don't kill profit margins. It's another to let someone order off the menu and then insist that they eat their dinner exactly how you want.

----------

People actually use FaceTime? The novelty wore off for me the first week...

I would agree up until 3.5 months ago when my daughter was born. Now video chatting (we don't use face time - we use tango since it's platform agnostic and can include everyone and via LTE too) is great so that both sets of grandparents, cousins, uncles and aunts can see our daughter all the time since they live around the US.

There are some great niche uses for video chatting.

*Calypso*
Jul 17, 2012, 07:31 AM
So let's play this game. Let us imagine Apple says, f it, we add in all features. Now the carriers say F Apple, no more iphones on our networks. Now what?

Then people buy their iPhones contract-free and choose a carrier. I never understood this stupid link between phones and plans. You don't buy your car from Texaco with a 2-year gas plan*, do you?

*Unlocking the aircon feature is an extra $10 a month, obviously :D

ardy8888
Jul 17, 2012, 07:34 AM
You honestly think AT&T will give you some sort of discount if you are an iPhone user and don't use Facetime on their network? You will continue paying the same amount...what's not to like!?

Bottom line is this isn't AT&T's feature. To charge for it is borderline illegal.

Now if they said "you can disable Facetime over 3/4G and receive a $5 discount" that would be more palatable. To simply charge an above and beyond fee for Apple's feature is seriously shady.

You should have the exact same argument about the tethering option. Tethering and FaceTime over 3G are both features of the device and should not cost a user extra to use. Its simply a way for the carrier to scam more money from their customers that can't really do much if all the carriers do it.

If this does come out as an added charge when iOS6 rolls out, I'll certainly look at changing carriers.

samcraig
Jul 17, 2012, 07:38 AM
Then people buy their iPhones contract-free and choose a carrier. I never understood this stupid link between phones and plans. You don't buy your car from Texaco with a 2-year gas plan, do you?

You can do that now. Most people (in the US) have gotten accustomed to subsidized phones.

Also - I think only t-mobile actually takes it into consideration for plans. Meaning - whether or not you subsidize your phone - you are paying the same rate for talk/data. So unless you really hate contracts - there's little incentive to own a phone outright because it costs more in the long run.

----------

You should have the exact same argument about the tethering option. Tethering and FaceTime over 3G are both features of the device and should not cost a user extra to use. Its simply a way for the carrier to scam more money from their customers that can't really do much if all the carriers do it.

If this does come out as an added charge when iOS6 rolls out, I'll certainly look at changing carriers.

Ardy - see my post above. In short - if you're grandfathered on unlimited - I think ATT is in their right with these alternative services that can tax the system to charge a premium. But if you're paying for "x" amount of data - they shouldn't be able to dictate HOW that is "spent"

JohnDoe98
Jul 17, 2012, 07:41 AM
There are some great niche uses for video chatting.

FaceTime isn't video only. It can do audio only if we want it to. So in short, FaceTime is like iMessage, where iMessage targets text plans, FaceTime targets voice plans.

*Calypso*
Jul 17, 2012, 07:42 AM
Most people (in the US) have gotten accustomed to subsidized phones.

There's no such thing as a free subsidy. I did the math (in Germany) and unless you are going to use 100% of the included voice minutes, texts and data, you are usually better off with buying the iPhone separately and then choosing the best carrier/plan for you needs.

furqan8421
Jul 17, 2012, 07:42 AM
May have been brought up not sure

But this doesn't necessarily say they will charge extra. Maybe you call to confirm/setup because the possibility for going over your data limit is much higher this way?

They may want you to confirm so that at the end of the month people aren't shocked at going over their data limit

JohnDoe98
Jul 17, 2012, 07:48 AM
Then people buy their iPhones contract-free and choose a carrier. I never understood this stupid link between phones and plans. You don't buy your car from Texaco with a 2-year gas plan*, do you?

*Unlocking the aircon feature is an extra $10 a month, obviously :D

Ok, so now you have an unlocked 700$ phone that doesn't work on any carrier's network. How does that help? The point I made (you quoted the wrong person, those are my words) is that unless Apple let's the carriers control some of the features iOS provides, like tethering, i.e. Personal Hotspot, and FaceTime, the carriers can block the Apple phones from the network all-together. The question of those phones being locked or unlocked is irrelevant.

----------

Ardy - see my post above. In short - if you're grandfathered on unlimited - I think ATT is in their right with these alternative services that can tax the system to charge a premium. But if you're paying for "x" amount of data - they shouldn't be able to dictate HOW that is "spent"

Almost. They would only be in their right to block those services when the system is actually taxed.

ardy8888
Jul 17, 2012, 07:48 AM
You can do that now. Most people (in the US) have gotten accustomed to subsidized phones.

Also - I think only t-mobile actually takes it into consideration for plans. Meaning - whether or not you subsidize your phone - you are paying the same rate for talk/data. So unless you really hate contracts - there's little incentive to own a phone outright because it costs more in the long run.

----------



Ardy - see my post above. In short - if you're grandfathered on unlimited - I think ATT is in their right with these alternative services that can tax the system to charge a premium. But if you're paying for "x" amount of data - they shouldn't be able to dictate HOW that is "spent"

How is AT&T in their right to charge one user for a feature of the phone but not another. It should not matter what plan a person has, this is a feature of the phone that uses a data plan that you already purchased. It should not matter what feature you use this data plan for. What it boils down to is the carriers need to find ways to keep their revenue up because they don't want to become what they actually should be, dumb pipes.

JohnDoe98
Jul 17, 2012, 07:49 AM
May have been brought up not sure

But this doesn't necessarily say they will charge extra. Maybe you call to confirm/setup because the possibility for going over your data limit is much higher this way?

They may want you to confirm so that at the end of the month people aren't shocked at going over their data limit

That sounds like wishful thinking. We already know AT&T's CEO wasn't too happy with having so many texting plans diminished or canceled when iMessage was introduced. They are not going to make that mistake twice.

ardy8888
Jul 17, 2012, 07:50 AM
May have been brought up not sure

But this doesn't necessarily say they will charge extra. Maybe you call to confirm/setup because the possibility for going over your data limit is much higher this way?

They may want you to confirm so that at the end of the month people aren't shocked at going over their data limit


Doubt it, I think the carriers WANT you to go over your limit so they can charge you overage fees. That's why they dropped the unlimited plan. Not because it was over taxing their network, but because they realized they can make more money by forcing lower plans and waiting for people to go over their limit.

cdmoore74
Jul 17, 2012, 07:51 AM
I want to see Apple sue any carrier that blocks or charges for built in features. Where is Apple when you need them. Damn hypocrites!!

*Calypso*
Jul 17, 2012, 07:52 AM
Ok, so now you have an unlocked 700$ phone that doesn't work on any carrier's network. How does that help? The point I made (you quoted the wrong person, those are my words) is that unless Apple let's the carriers control some of the features iOS provides, like tethering, i.e. Personal Hotspot, and FaceTime, the carriers can block the Apple phones from the network all-together. The question of those phones being locked or unlocked is irrelevant.

Wow, you really do need some government intervention if carriers are allowed to randomly block mobile devices from using their network. I didn't even consider something that absurd. :eek:

LoraoTX
Jul 17, 2012, 07:52 AM
Why not just boycott at&t? I know there are millions of customers out there BUT if the company makes a decision to charge more for their services and we as customers just sit by and pay up.. I only see things changing for the worse. Unless we stop giving them money, they won't change a single thing to benefit us customers.

If we boycott the company, I'm sure they'll take notice.

JohnDoe98
Jul 17, 2012, 07:56 AM
Wow, you really do need some government intervention if carriers are allowed to randomly block mobile devices from using their network. I didn't even consider something that absurd. :eek:

It's not randomly blocked. They just need to say, "any device that automatically does tethering or voip is blocked from the network until the software is changed in a manner that allows us to charge for those features". That would apply to Apple, Google, Samsung, Nokia, whoever doesn't want to play by their rules.

There was a time when the Nokia N95 was blocked from AT&T's network because it had built-in VOIP. When they realised VOIP on 3G, at the time sucked, they let the devices on the network.

iMacRum0rs
Jul 17, 2012, 07:57 AM
The advantage to Skype and Tango right now might not be as amazing call quality - but you can do it anywhere and it's device agnostic.

The DISadvantage to Skype and Tango is that both parties need to be signed in, like an IM client. For most of my friends and family, I'd have to call them first and tell them to sign in so we could video chat. FaceTime, on the other hand, works like a phone call and goes directly to the device, no sign in required. THIS is what makes FaceTime stand out.

Perhaps AT&T is trying to make FaceTime over cellular an LTE only feature for the iPhone 5? No additional charge, but you have to be on the LTE network to use it?

JohnDoe98
Jul 17, 2012, 07:58 AM
Why not just boycott at&t? I know there are millions of customers out there BUT if the company makes a decision to charge more for their services and we as customers just sit by and pay up.. I only see things changing for the worse. Unless we stop giving them money, they won't change a single thing to benefit us customers.

If we boycott the company, I'm sure they'll take notice.

Easier said than done, people actually need mobile phones and if all carriers are do this, and they all do in slightly different ways, there is nothing people can do other than to boycott the entire technology. Well that's never going to happen.

The way to fix this (good luck though considering lobbying is allowed) is to place government restrictions on what the carriers can do, so long as the carriers continue to use public spectrum.

samcraig
Jul 17, 2012, 08:01 AM
Almost. They would only be in their right to block those services when the system is actually taxed.

No - according the the contract you signed - the services did not include tethering nor did it include new services that would/could be created. That's at the discretion of ATT. Which is why I said - if you're grandfathered in on that plan - ATT has every right to charge a la carte for features not covered under the original agreement.

How is AT&T in their right to charge one user for a feature of the phone but not another. It should not matter what plan a person has, this is a feature of the phone that uses a data plan that you already purchased. It should not matter what feature you use this data plan for. What it boils down to is the carriers need to find ways to keep their revenue up because they don't want to become what they actually should be, dumb pipes.

See above.

I agree that if you are paying for a specific amount of data - ATT shouldn't dictate how you "spend it. If you are grandfathered from a previous plan that didn't take these services into consideration - they have every right and while I may not like it - I hold nothing against ATT for charging me (if I choose to use) these services vs someone that pays for a specific data allotment.

To be blunt - if you are still getting unlimited data - stop pissing and moaning because as obnxious as ALL carriers are - be thankful at least that you weren't forced into a newer plan. You aren't entitled to anything "extra."

IE - just because Siri can run on the iPhone4 doesn't mean you are entitled to it. You don't have to like it. But that's not the same as feeling you are entitled to it.

----------

The DISadvantage to Skype and Tango is that both parties need to be signed in, like an IM client. For most of my friends and family, I'd have to call them first and tell them to sign in so we could video chat. FaceTime, on the other hand, works like a phone call and goes directly to the device, no sign in required. THIS is what makes FaceTime stand out.

Perhaps AT&T is trying to make FaceTime over cellular an LTE only feature for the iPhone 5? No additional charge, but you have to be on the LTE network to use it?

No. Tango doesn't require me to be signed in. Once installed - it's there. I've never had to sign in after that first set up.

So either you've never used it - or missed that :)

JohnDoe98
Jul 17, 2012, 08:01 AM
Perhaps AT&T is trying to make FaceTime over cellular an LTE only feature for the iPhone 5? No additional charge, but you have to be on the LTE network to use it?

They could easily ask Apple to do program that limitation in the software. There would be no need to call AT&T to accomplish that. Rest assured, anytime you are forced to call in for something, it is because they need your authorization to charge you for an additional fee.

KdParker
Jul 17, 2012, 08:04 AM
Are there any third-party video chat apps for iOS yet? If so, do they work over 3G?

skype

zin
Jul 17, 2012, 08:04 AM
Translation: "Pay us more money to use this data service even though you already pay for a data package".

I feel for you people who have to put up with this horrendous company. I don't think I've ever read one positive thing about AT&T.

donrsd
Jul 17, 2012, 08:06 AM
People actually use FaceTime? The novelty wore off for me the first week...

i only use it to facetime with the woman when she is out and the kids want to 'see her'
or
to videochat with family who want to see my kids or i want to see their kids.

its like siri......rarely used, but there if you need it :)

JohnDoe98
Jul 17, 2012, 08:07 AM
No - according the the contract you signed - the services did not include tethering nor did it include new services that would/could be created. That's at the discretion of ATT. Which is why I said - if you're grandfathered in on that plan - ATT has every right to charge a la carte for features not covered under the original agreement.

What service? I'm not asking AT&T for any additional service. Netflix and Youtube aren't in my contract either, yet I can use that software if I choose. AT&T can't block that willy nilly. There is no principled difference with tethering, just norms people have come to blindly accept.


I agree that if you are paying for a specific amount of data - ATT shouldn't dictate how you "spend it. If you are grandfathered from a previous plan that didn't take these services into consideration - they have every right and while I may not like it - I hold nothing against ATT for charging me (if I choose to use) these services vs someone that pays for a specific data allotment.

There you go twisting things again by calling software features "services". AT&T can throttle you, that's about it.


IE - just because Siri can run on the iPhone4 doesn't mean you are entitled to it. You don't have to like it. But that's not the same as feeling you are entitled to it.

You are entitled to your data, you paid for it.

LoraoTX
Jul 17, 2012, 08:08 AM
Easier said than done, people actually need mobile phones and if all carriers are do this, and they all do in slightly different ways, there is nothing people can do other than to boycott the entire technology. Well that's never going to happen.

The way to fix this (good luck though considering lobbying is allowed) is to place government restrictions on what the carriers can do, so long as the carriers continue to use public spectrum.

I'm not saying is 'that easy' but we have to start somewhere.. I remember a couple of months ago where an article was posted by high ups over @ T-Mobile saying that they lost thousands of customers to at&t because of the iPhone and so on.. So what 'good' came out of that? The possibility of T-Mobile being on board with the iPhone. Even though that could have happened before but I think that thousands of people leaving T-Mobile, gave them a push...

If enough people make the switch, at&t will notice thats all I'm saying..

*Calypso*
Jul 17, 2012, 08:08 AM
It's not randomly blocked. They just need to say, "any device that automatically does tethering or voip is blocked from the network until the software is changed in a manner that allows us to charge for those features". That would apply to Apple, Google, Samsung, Nokia, whoever doesn't want to play by their rules.

There was a time when the Nokia N95 was blocked from AT&T's network because it had built-in VOIP.

It is random because they can exploit their market power to make up random rules. Competition also means that there is no direct link between two markets, meaning that mobile carriers cannot interfere with the mobile devices market and vice versa. Tethering and VoIP is data usage and it's none of the carrier's business what someone uses paid data for.

What's next? Texaco telling you what car to drive?

So the government should clarify what services mobile carriers can provide: They can offer voice minutes (non-IP), SMS/MMS and data - no further classification allowed. Splitting up data into VoIP, video calls, tethering, instant messaging, P2P, ... is like electricity providers splitting up you electric bill into TV, aircon, computer and charging different rates - just ridiculous.

KdParker
Jul 17, 2012, 08:09 AM
I'm leaving Att for Verizon data family share and LTE when the new iPhone comes out so it won't phase me. I am done with them, Verizon is even including tethering.

+1 This facetime charge is the last straw. Hello verizon

RulinSmoove
Jul 17, 2012, 08:11 AM
the only thing worse than this.....


.... will be reading ATT's excuse as to why they are doing it.


Deplorable. I pay for unlimited data. I rarely hit 2 gigs. Not a chance they will dime me for facetime, as it is not their feature.

I agree with you 100%, as reading the reasoning behind this will be interesting. It isn't their feature, but it is their network. Sucks I know.

Pukey
Jul 17, 2012, 08:11 AM
What would be the point? The thing is that it is another option for people underutilising their data plan, and At&t seems to be against that. So it is okay for people to use their allotted data for streaming youtube, but not talking with other people?

Facetime with video turned off would basically make it a low-data usage calling alternative. Your suggestion makes it indistinguishable from normal voice plans. Why even bother? :confused:

This is an interesting idea, Facetime with video turned off! Would it be kind of like Skype then? Seems like it could be a nice money saving work around potentially...

In a way, this kind of makes sense. Think of how many ignorant people will use FaceTime over 3G/4G without knowing it uses their data.

Most people here at Macrumors would be aware, but I assure you the average user is not. Who do you think will have to deal with all those complaints when customers are going over their data plans and having to pay fees?

Don't get me wrong, I personally dislike it (and will be switching to Spring for unlimited data when the next iPhone is release). Just playing devil's advocate.

Don't do it! Don't switch to Sprint! :D From reading these threads on MacRumors it seems many are in agreement that Sprint phones which are CDMA are not as good since they're locked to one carrier. You get more for your money with a GSM phone. I believe T-Mobile has this kind of iPhone on a pay as you go plan even.

JohnDoe98
Jul 17, 2012, 08:11 AM
It is random because they can exploit their market power to make up random rules. Competition also means that there is no direct link between two markets, meaning that mobile carriers cannot interfere with the mobile devices market and vice versa. Tethering and VoIP is data usage and it's non of the carrier's business what someone uses paid data for.

So the government should clarify what services mobile carriers can provide: They can offer voice minutes (non-IP), SMS/MMS and data - no further classification allowed. Splitting up data into VoIP, video calls, tethering, instant messaging, P2P, ... is like electricity providers splitting up you electric bill into TV, aircon, computer and charging different rates - just ridiculous.

Exactly. But for that to happen, our public needs to become far better informed. They just accept the PR line these carriers feed them.

arkmannj
Jul 17, 2012, 08:12 AM
Isn't it already paid for in the Data plan? If you use your data for Facetime then how is that any different than downloading files, or using Netflix? IF you go over your data then you pay extra for it, if you don't then why shuold AT&T care? Data packets are data packets it doens't matter if someone is using it for web pages, streaming or video conferencing. If AT&T charges extra to use FaceTime then they better have rock solid 3G/4G everywhere tht can handle the converation without stuttering or dropping the Facetime chats.

BTW I think it would be pretty awesome to see the big phone makers create a communications company.
Google, Apple, Microsoft, RIM, Samsung, Sony, Nokia all go in on a joint venture to create a nation/world wide data only network. That would shake up the current telecoms and get some real competition & innovation going. I know that it seems unlikely that those companies would join together, but in the smart phone areana they have aligned interests and share the dsame problems with the Telecoms.

samcraig
Jul 17, 2012, 08:19 AM
What service? I'm not asking AT&T for any additional service. Netflix and Youtube aren't in my contract either, yet I can use that software if I choose. AT&T can't block that willy nilly. There is no principled difference with tethering, just norms people have come to blindly accept.


We will have to agree to disagree. Tethering allows more than one device (the one contracted) to use the data plan which opens up the network for being taxed. I'm not saying it is or has been. I'm saying that it could. And tethering - since day one has always been a pay-for-play service on ATT. It was never included.

And actually the FCC had to step in to prevent skype and netflix (two examples) from being blocked.

Again - agree to disagree. You can believe you're entitled to something I believe you aren't under the unlimited data plan.

If you want to argue that people paying for a capped data plan shouldn't be restricted, I'm first in line to agree.

----------



So the government should clarify what services mobile carriers can provide: They can offer voice minutes (non-IP), SMS/MMS and data - no further classification allowed. Splitting up data into VoIP, video calls, tethering, instant messaging, P2P, ... is like electricity providers splitting up you electric bill into TV, aircon, computer and charging different rates - just ridiculous.

A agree. But question. If you signed a contract for unlimited electricity (let's call it $50 a month and this was back in 1940). A few years later TV comes around and sucks up a lot of electricity and wasn't part of the original unlimited agreement. But - at the same time - the company offered a metered plan and you could choose to go metered and do whatever you want with the electricity or stay on the unlimited but have to pay a la carte for powering a tv. Would that be OK or would that be insane?

While I might not like it - I would see that scenario as OK. What I don't find OK is ATT dictating how someone metered can spend that data. You should be able to use metered data however you want.

I don't feel the same way towards the grandfathered unlimited plan that I, myself, have.

Puevlo
Jul 17, 2012, 08:19 AM
If you don't like it start your own carrier.

kalsta
Jul 17, 2012, 08:19 AM
I can't help but think it's about the minutes.
If you FaceTime everyone instead of calling you're using Data alright, that your'e paying for, but you're also NOT using any minutes...so you could drop your minutes plan down to a minimum, bump up your data, and end up cheaper possibly.

ATT already losing revenue on texting with iMessage.

I don't know why they or someone doesn't just lead the pack and provide a Data-Only plan already...it's not like Voice or SMS are something special any more.

Yes, of course it's about the carriers losing their traditional revenue streams. They make obscene amounts of money from timed calls and SMS texts. It's inevitable that mobile communications will transition to the Internet, and when that transition is complete, all plans will just be data plans… but the carriers won't just roll over and let it happen without a fight. Why would they? They stand to lose too much revenue.

So no one should really be surprised by this. They're not wanting to kill this cash cow until they've milked the last drop from it.

JohnDoe98
Jul 17, 2012, 08:27 AM
Tethering allows more than one device (the one contracted) to use the data plan which opens up the network for being taxed. I'm not saying it is or has been. I'm saying that it could.

You make sensible points, but this one bothers me. I know you already asked me to agree to disagree, which is fine, but I did want to say one thing regarding this line of reasoning. Here goes my analogy.

An asteroid could take down a bunch of towers. I'm not saying that it has or will. I'm saying that it could. So please pay the asteroid safety fee next month. :)


A agree. But question. If you signed a contract for unlimited electricity (let's call it $50 a month and this was back in 1940). A few years later TV comes around and sucks up a lot of electricity and wasn't part of the original unlimited agreement. But - at the same time - the company offered a metered plan and you could choose to go metered and do whatever you want with the electricity or stay on the unlimited but have to pay a la carte for powering a tv. Would that be OK or would that be insane?

Completely fine if AT&T just turned off the unlimited plan. I have no problem with that. They do not have to renew the contracts once they expire. The contracts are typically renewed on a yearly basis, so they could effectively end all unlimited plans by this time next year in a fair and reasonable manner.


While I might not like it - I would see that scenario as OK. What I don't find OK is ATT dictating how someone metered can spend that data. You should be able to use metered data however you want.

Agreed.


I don't feel the same way towards the grandfathered unlimited plan that I, myself, have.

That's what I don't understand, but as you said, perhaps it's best to agree to disagree.

Mr_Ed
Jul 17, 2012, 08:27 AM
I've been with AT&T since the first iPhone hit the market. I know some parts of the country have had coverage/quality issues but it has worked well for me here in central Florida and in places I have traveled to in the U.S. I've also used my iPhone abroad (UK) on vacation and signing up for extra data coverage abroad, while expensive, was painless and worked well. Dropping the extra data service after my vacation was likewise painless.

In spite of my overall positive experience with AT&T, this nickel-and-dime stuff with the data really aggravates me. The way I see it, if FaceTime is a bandwidth hog (I don't know if it is), users are more likely to hit their monthly data caps and AT&T would be entitled to charge them for extra usage anyway. So, why complicate matters by treating FaceTime as somehow different than any other type of data? I'm paying for data and it should be up to me how I use it and what kind of data it is (what services/protocols I use).

IF AT&T pulls the trigger on additional fees for FaceTime, I'll be one of many looking at alternatives when my contract is up. I just hope other major U.S. carriers do not follow suit. (** Yeah, American mobile carriers really do suck in general. ** :mad:)

JohnDoe98
Jul 17, 2012, 08:30 AM
Isn't it already paid for in the Data plan? If you use your data for Facetime then how is that any different than downloading files, or using Netflix? IF you go over your data then you pay extra for it, if you don't then why shuold AT&T care? Data packets are data packets it doens't matter if someone is using it for web pages, streaming or video conferencing. If AT&T charges extra to use FaceTime then they better have rock solid 3G/4G everywhere tht can handle the converation without stuttering or dropping the Facetime chats.

Right, it would be ok to offer an additional FaceTime data package if they want, but if they just flat out charge for any FaceTime use over and above what you pay for your current data, then there is something very wrong there.

----------

If you don't like it start your own carrier.

How? The public spectrum isn't unlimited and it's currently all used up, the lion's share going to AT&T and Verizon. This isn't SimCity.

hansenc
Jul 17, 2012, 08:33 AM
I'm sure its already been said but I'm about sick of ATT and all the little fees.

DATA IS DATA

Why do they care WHAT we use it for? I pay for 4gb I should be able to use it however I want.

samcraig
Jul 17, 2012, 08:35 AM
You make sensible points, but this one bothers me. I know you already asked me to agree to disagree, which is fine, but I did want to say one thing regarding this line of reasoning. Here goes my analogy.

An asteroid could take down a bunch of towers. I'm not saying that it has or will. I'm saying that it could. So please pay the asteroid safety fee next month. :)


Perhaps I didn't phrase that correctly. My point is - not working for ATT and knowing their usage and network specifics - I can't comment on whether they get or have been taxed. I know that here in NYC - there have been plenty of times where network congestion seems to be an issue.

So, although a leap of faith and an assumption - if ATT says that their network suffers and people can/would experience issues - then without them being audited - we're sort of at their mercy to take their word for it. What should really happen is some additional regulations and auditing of networks and quarterly - they should release a report as part of everyone's statement or otherwise on network conditions.

As for other who comment about skype, etc eating into voice plans - it's true. But I read somewhere - and believe - that eventually there won't be any voice plans at all. Everything will move to a data only plan and we will all be paying capped plans.

Calls/texts/emails/video calls/etc will all be under the capped data plans. And no doubt will rake the networks even more money unless they get regulated at least a little.

Zimmy68
Jul 17, 2012, 08:36 AM
We are working closely with Apple...

How is that going? Is it the same guys that are working closely to get personal hotspot on the new iPad?

JohnDoe98
Jul 17, 2012, 08:42 AM
Perhaps I didn't phrase that correctly. My point is - not working for ATT and knowing their usage and network specifics - I can't comment on whether they get or have been taxed. I know that here in NYC - there have been plenty of times where network congestion seems to be an issue.

Throttling during, and only during, peak network congestion times strikes me as the appropriate response to this problem.