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taeclee99
Jul 20, 2012, 01:53 PM
I've been using the Nexus 7 heavily for the past two days instead of my ipad 3. It's been mainly a positive experience so far. Here are my impressions of the device and android experience:

Pros:

- Very light weight holding it in one hand.

- Screen is very nice - not retina quality but pretty good nonetheless.

- Overall build quality is great. Does not feel like a $200 device.

- Being able to install apps that Apple would never allow.

- Multiple App stores and being able to sideload apps.

- Many apps and games are free (ad supported) in the Google Play Store.

- Adobe Flash - Yeah I know that flash sucks on mobile but it is a nice option to have. Not officially supported in Jelly Bean but was able to sideload it.

- Great as an e-reader using the B&N Nook app. (this is my primary use for the nexus 7).

- Jelly Bean - Scrolling and pinch to zoom are very smooth. Have not experienced lag in the UI.

- Google Now - is not as personal and whimsical as Siri but is incredibly accurate in it's responses.

Cons:

- Screen size is not optimal for a tablet - I found certain tap targets to be too small. Apple really nailed it with the 9.7 in screen size on the ipad.

- Although it is easy to hold - I wish there was a bit more of a bezel to hold on to in the vertical orientation.

- The home screen does not rotate to horizontal mode without hacking it.
You can load alternate launchers to add this functionality.

- App quality - Although there is no shortage of apps in the Google Play and Amazon stores, the apps that do exist lack the general polish exhibited by their IOS counterparts. Most of the apps in the Play store are phone apps and are not tablet optimized. What's even worse it that there is no way of knowing with any certainty which apps in the play store are tablet optimized and which ones aren't. At least in the IOS app store there is a clear separation between iphone and ipad apps.
The tablet optimized apps that do exist in the Play Store are generally good. There just aren't enough of them. I am hopeful with the increasing popularity of the Nexus 7, developers will create more tablet optimized apps.

- Paid apps in the Play store are typically more expensive that their respective IOS versions.

Conclusion:

All in all the Nexus 7 is a great device. For a person who does not already own a tablet and wants to spend less $$$, I can wholeheartedly recommend it.That being said, the ipad 3 is still an all-around better device. The ipad 3 has a better screen, higher quality apps, and a more cohesive OS in my opinion. Whether the ipad 3 is $300 better I am not so sure. For me having both devices is very redundant and I am still on the fence on whether I am going to keep the Nexus 7 or return it. I have 12 more days to decide.



goinskiing
Jul 20, 2012, 02:24 PM
I'm getting my Nexus 7 today and pretty excited about it. I like the Nexus line because it will be the least fragmented of the android devices. My primary use will be as an e-reader for technical docs on the cheap (cheaper than iPad anyways). To me I would closer compare this to the Kindle Fire of which this destroys in almost any category you can come up with. The iPad 3 is definitely superior in most ways (especially quality apps, android is definitly behind here) and if I had some extra $ would get that, but for the $200 the Nexus 7 is a no brainer and an excellent little tablet.

BFizzzle
Jul 20, 2012, 02:37 PM
great post! thanks
- Jelly Bean - Scrolling and pinch to zoom are very smooth. Have not experienced lag in the UI.


ive been considering an sIII or something of that nature. The scrolling and lag has been my only concern :) so thanks for the feed back on that.


i might switch to an LTE sprint device soon.. tired of my throttled iphone4s. Hmmmm


thanks again for a great informative post.

urkel
Jul 20, 2012, 02:45 PM
In this particular case, the Nexus 7 is an appealing device to iPad owners almost as much as it is to non-iPad owners. It really looks like the 7" tablet done right and with such a low price tag then I know many iPad owners who are buying this just to try out Jelly Bean. And considering all the people who shoot down 7" tablets without even trying one out, there's a line of iPad owners who want to give it a fair shot before we start praising/dismissing the idea of a smaller iPad.

Obviously you have no interest in the Nexus 7, but let's be honest here, Apple hasn't given us much to talk about in the iOS world.

taeclee99
Jul 20, 2012, 02:59 PM
ive been considering an sIII or something of that nature. The scrolling and lag has been my only concern :) so thanks for the feed back on that.


i might switch to an LTE sprint device soon.. tired of my throttled iphone4s. Hmmmm


thanks again for a great informative post.

The S3 is a nice device but has Samsung's touchwiz skin. If you going android for your next phone, you should wait for the 2012 Galaxy Nexus with stock Jelly Bean.

BFizzzle
Jul 20, 2012, 02:59 PM
The S3 is a nice device but has Samsung's touchwiz skin. If you going android for your next phone, you should wait for the 2012 Galaxy Nexus with stock Jelly Bean.

ahh okay cool, thanks.

spiderman0616
Jul 20, 2012, 03:01 PM
In this particular case, the Nexus 7 is an appealing device to iPad owners almost as much as it is to non-iPad owners. It really looks like the 7" tablet done right and with such a low price tag then I know many iPad owners who are buying this just to try out Jelly Bean. And considering all the people who shoot down 7" tablets without even trying one out, there's a line of iPad owners who want to give it a fair shot before we start praising/dismissing the idea of a smaller iPad.

Obviously you have no interest in the Nexus 7, but let's be honest here, Apple hasn't given us much to talk about in the iOS world.

And Google hasn't given you that much to talk about on Android either. Both are mature operating systems now and are going to update incrementally. What is really groundbreaking about Jelly Bean other than it finally behaves like a proper mobile OS that doesn't hang up when you swipe the screen?

You know what? Don't answer that. I'll just comb the MacRumors threads on my own and find all of the new features. That's all this forum really talks about at the moment.

BFizzzle
Jul 20, 2012, 03:08 PM
And Google hasn't given you that much to talk about on Android either. Both are mature operating systems now and are going to update incrementally. What is really groundbreaking about Jelly Bean other than it finally behaves like a proper mobile OS that doesn't hang up when you swipe the screen?

You know what? Don't answer that. I'll just comb the MacRumors threads on my own and find all of the new features. That's all this forum really talks about at the moment.

you'd swear someone has a gun to your head and is making you get on the forums, much less threads regarding android os.

ucfgrad93
Jul 20, 2012, 03:37 PM
Thanks OP for the thoughtful and informative look at the Nexus 7. It is nice to hear from someone that has owned both.

plucky duck
Jul 20, 2012, 06:23 PM
ive been considering an sIII or something of that nature. The scrolling and lag has been my only concern :) so thanks for the feed back on that.


i might switch to an LTE sprint device soon.. tired of my throttled iphone4s. Hmmmm


thanks again for a great informative post.


I've tried the S3 and it's definitely not as smooth as the Galaxy Nexus with Jelly Bean.

Redjericho
Jul 20, 2012, 06:29 PM
It's interesting in light of 1) the low price point enabling iOS only users to tinker with Android



And that is exactly why google is selling it at a near break-even price point. Looks like they've succeeded :)

ZBoater
Jul 20, 2012, 07:56 PM
I really like mine. It's a lot of tablet for $250. Yes, I love my iPad, but Live Wallpapers and widgets just pop on the Nexus 7 with Jelly Bean. I've even noticed a significant improvement in touch responsiveness and accuracy.

And I have access to a real file system. Yay!

BTW, iCab browser has really solved a couple of issues I have with the iPads closed file system. Took some steps, but I could upload files to a website though the browser. The gap is closing...

taeclee99
Jul 20, 2012, 08:16 PM
Yes, I was hoping that my Nexus 7 experience would be helpful to others contemplating buying one. I am glad that some people like yourself can appreciate a thoughtful discussion about a competitor's product. The last thing I wanted is for this thread is to turn into an IOS vs Android flame war.

Jagardn
Jul 20, 2012, 08:27 PM
Yes, I was hoping that my Nexus 7 experience would be helpful to others contemplating buying one. I am glad that some people like yourself can appreciate a thoughtful discussion about a competitor's product. The last thing I wanted is for this thread is to turn into an IOS vs Android flame war.

I've owned both the iPad and have a Nexus 7. I completely agree with the review. One thing I would add, after using iOS for so long, I hate the autocorrect on Android.

Rodster
Jul 20, 2012, 08:57 PM
I was enjoying my N7 until I found out about the glass separation issue. I may revisit it after the problem is fixed.

Roy G Biv
Jul 21, 2012, 12:15 AM
How good is the speaker? Compared to iPad's?

freudling
Jul 21, 2012, 01:40 AM
My Nexus 7 is collecting dust while I hammer through my day and night with my iPhone and iPad. It's a waste: nobody needs tweeners.

xkmxkmxlmx
Jul 21, 2012, 01:50 AM
My Nexus 7 is collecting dust while I hammer through my day and night with my iPhone and iPad. It's a waste: nobody needs tweeners.

What is a "tweener"?

MacRy
Jul 21, 2012, 02:24 AM
I've been using one for a couple of days now and I love it. It's my first foray into Android and I must admit I'm very impressed. I've never really liked the look of the Android OS, I always felt it looked a bit cluttered and cheap somehow but having used it I can see the benefits of widgets and screen customisation and it feels more open and amenable than iOS.

The tablet itself is great quality and not just "for the price". It feels a lot more premium than the price suggests in my opinion. For me the form factor is perfect. I have an iPad 2 but never really want to take it anywhere because of it's size and the fact that I feel really self conscious getting it out in public (particularly in the area I live!).

Overall I'm really impressed with the little fella and my wife is even more so as she now gets to play with the iPad.

doboy
Jul 21, 2012, 02:26 AM
I really like mine. It's a lot of tablet for $250. Yes, I love my iPad, but Live Wallpapers and widgets just pop on the Nexus 7 with Jelly Bean. I've even noticed a significant improvement in touch responsiveness and accuracy.

And I have access to a real file system. Yay!

BTW, iCab browser has really solved a couple of issues I have with the iPads closed file system. Took some steps, but I could upload files to a website though the browser. The gap is closing...

What you do with your Samsung android tablets?

sinser
Jul 21, 2012, 02:40 AM
I don't get it. I also don't know why I have to read 8 gazillion Nexus 7 and Galaxy SIII reviews on MacRumors. I don't come here for Android news and reviews.

I'm wondering the same. I don't understand the recent trend where people review, ask for suggestions and so on, abour non Apple devices on something called macrumors. Some non Apple products are great, but I don't see why they need to be discussed REGULARLY here.

garybUK
Jul 21, 2012, 05:10 AM
I'm considering a Nexus 7 purely as a e-reader, my parents have both got iPad's and i'm not a Android phone person [AT ALL] but I'd consider the Nexus 7 for reading e-books as the size is much better for this purpose than a 9.7" tablet.

The only downside I see to it is the content to purchase from google isn't available outside the USA yet. big downer. A Kindle app and the price would be perfect though.

Night Spring
Jul 21, 2012, 07:38 AM
What is a "tweener"?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XzNCN3WGGJg :D

In general, it means something in-between.

ZBoater
Jul 21, 2012, 08:27 AM
What you do with your Samsung android tablets?

Mostly email and web browsing.

wolfpackfan
Jul 21, 2012, 09:03 AM
I am very interested in reading the info. on the Nexus 7. Sometime in the next couple of months I'm going to get a Nexus 7 or an iPad mini if one is introduced. I have an iPhone and iPad 1 but really want a tweener (as someone labelled it). I basically carry my iPad with me everywhere I go now but would really like something a little smaller but still a tablet. I see myself using the Nexus 7 and my iPad together. My iPad will be for watching Netflix and using Pages and Numbers while the Nexus will be for reading, browsing the web and email. I am really hoping Apple comes out with a mini, since I have so much invested in Apple and am a iCloud user but if not or if it is too expensive I will go with the Nexus.

nishishei
Jul 21, 2012, 12:25 PM
Not too impressed with the Nexus 7 to be honest. PDF rendering is slow as molasses (esp during panning which is necessary on a 7 incher) and small fonts still look blurry forcing you to zoom (more lag). I was really excited about getting one that would fit in my white coat pocket but alas I find it only marginally more convenient than my phone.

If you use a tablet just for browsing and reading novels then the Nexus 7 is fine and probably ideal esp if you commute. But if you plan to use the Nexus to read two-column science journals and big thousand page PDFs like I do, I think iPad is still the way to go. You don't need to pan around, which if you think about it you might as well just use your phone for. Other than for casual consumers, Nexus 7 feels both too small and too big for what it does. It's in this netherworld that theoretically sounds enticing but is neither here nor there when you actually use your devices for productivity.

freudling
Jul 21, 2012, 02:56 PM
Our hero fraudling.. The warrior of anti-7" crusade.. Comes through yet again. Keep showing them, fraudling. They will learn their errant ways.. eventually.

MacNowhere, demonstrated lier who doesn't own the Nexus 7 but said he did.

To the rest: check out the photos I posted on Photobucket and see the Nexus vs. the iPhone 4S.

mcman77
Jul 21, 2012, 03:12 PM
- Screen size is not optimal for a tablet - I found certain tap targets to be too small. Apple really nailed it with the 9.7 in screen size on the ipad.

I don't have one but been looking into getting one. Doesn't it have a feature where you double tap in a small area and it brings up a box of it zoomed in?
I've even seen it in a youtube clip but forgot how he did it.


- Although it is easy to hold - I wish there was a bit more of a bezel to hold on to in the vertical orientation.

I think the bottom/top bezels are so think so you can hold it from there ... just a thought lol :D

Joke aside, hold it with you thumb on the bottom bezel and four fingers at the back. No need for side bezel holding. Like an eBook reader

Mac.World
Jul 21, 2012, 06:11 PM
I've been using the Nexus 7 heavily for the past two days instead of my ipad 3. It's been mainly a positive experience so far. Here are my impressions of the device and android experience:

Pros:

- Very light weight holding it in one hand.

- Screen is very nice - not retina quality but pretty good nonetheless.

- Overall build quality is great. Does not feel like a $200 device.

- Being able to install apps that Apple would never allow.

- Multiple App stores and being able to sideload apps.

- Many apps and games are free (ad supported) in the Google Play Store.

- Adobe Flash - Yeah I know that flash sucks on mobile but it is a nice option to have. Not officially supported in Jelly Bean but was able to sideload it.

- Great as an e-reader using the B&N Nook app. (this is my primary use for the nexus 7).

- Jelly Bean - Scrolling and pinch to zoom are very smooth. Have not experienced lag in the UI.

- Google Now - is not as personal and whimsical as Siri but is incredibly accurate in it's responses.

Cons:

- Screen size is not optimal for a tablet - I found certain tap targets to be too small. Apple really nailed it with the 9.7 in screen size on the ipad.

- Although it is easy to hold - I wish there was a bit more of a bezel to hold on to in the vertical orientation.

- The home screen does not rotate to horizontal mode without hacking it.
You can load alternate launchers to add this functionality.

- App quality - Although there is no shortage of apps in the Google Play and Amazon stores, the apps that do exist lack the general polish exhibited by their IOS counterparts. Most of the apps in the Play store are phone apps and are not tablet optimized. What's even worse it that there is no way of knowing with any certainty which apps in the play store are tablet optimized and which ones aren't. At least in the IOS app store there is a clear separation between iphone and ipad apps.
The tablet optimized apps that do exist in the Play Store are generally good. There just aren't enough of them. I am hopeful with the increasing popularity of the Nexus 7, developers will create more tablet optimized apps.

- Paid apps in the Play store are typically more expensive that their respective IOS versions.

Conclusion:

All in all the Nexus 7 is a great device. For a person who does not already own a tablet and wants to spend less $$$, I can wholeheartedly recommend it.That being said, the ipad 3 is still an all-around better device. The ipad 3 has a better screen, higher quality apps, and a more cohesive OS in my opinion. Whether the ipad 3 is $300 better I am not so sure. For me having both devices is very redundant and I am still on the fence on whether I am going to keep the Nexus 7 or return it. I have 12 more days to decide.

Thank you for this write-up review. I have not had a chance to see the Nexus 7 yet in action, so can't make any sort of comment on it from personal experience. But what you have written pretty much confirms my hypothesis that it is going to take one more generation of tablets before Android is up to par with the iPad.
Looks like these are getting closer and closer and $200 for what you do get is pretty good. I think I would still get an ipad at this point in time though. Next year looks like it will be a very different story though.

freudling
Jul 21, 2012, 07:03 PM
Thank you for this write-up review. I have not had a chance to see the Nexus 7 yet in action, so can't make any sort of comment on it from personal experience. But what you have written pretty much confirms my hypothesis that it is going to take one more generation of tablets before Android is up to par with the iPad.
Looks like these are getting closer and closer and $200 for what you do get is pretty good. I think I would still get an ipad at this point in time though. Next year looks like it will be a very different story though.

Next year... and then next year... Android is yards behind iOS.

Anyway, check out my comparison of the Sexus vs. the iPhone 4S. Sorry, but this tablet form factor... the tweener, has zero reason to live:

http://s675.photobucket.com/albums/vv116/freudling/

Mac.World
Jul 21, 2012, 07:20 PM
Next year... and then next year... Android is yards behind iOS.

Anyway, check out my comparison of the Sexus vs. the iPhone 4S. Sorry, but this tablet form factor... the tweener, has zero reason to live:

I wouldn't say Android is yards behind iOS. I have seen a slow steady progression from that crappy OS called Honeycomb, to ICS which is pretty good actually, and finally to Jelly Bean (which the reviewers say is even better than ICS.) To me, it seems the OS has caught up and now we need a manufacturer to build something as good as the iPad AND of course, devs need to continue making better, quality apps for retina style displayed phones and tablets.

I don't know if Google's Play app store will ever be able to compete against Apple's app store, so that may always be a mitigating factor in people's purchase decisions.

freudling
Jul 21, 2012, 07:34 PM
I wouldn't say Android is yards behind iOS. I have seen a slow steady progression from that crappy OS called Honeycomb, to ICS which is pretty good actually, and finally to Jelly Bean (which the reviewers say is even better than ICS.) To me, it seems the OS has caught up and now we need a manufacturer to build something as good as the iPad AND of course, devs need to continue making better, quality apps for retina style displayed phones and tablets.

I don't know if Google's Play app store will ever be able to compete against Apple's app store, so that may always be a mitigating factor in people's purchase decisions.

The one thing I'll give Android here is it's much smoother than before. But that's it. I haven't been attacking Android... notice that? Just the form factor. But Android on a tablet is terrible. That's another gripe I have with the Sexus and another conversation.

ixodes
Jul 21, 2012, 08:27 PM
I really like mine. It's a lot of tablet for $250. Yes, I love my iPad, but Live Wallpapers and widgets just pop on the Nexus 7 with Jelly Bean. I've even noticed a significant improvement in touch responsiveness and accuracy.

And I have access to a real file system. Yay!

BTW, iCab browser has really solved a couple of issues I have with the iPads closed file system. Took some steps, but I could upload files to a website though the browser. The gap is closing...
My experience has been just terrific. Yet it's no surprise since I've been using Android phones concurrently with iOS for years.

Thanks to Apple being late (if ever) to the party with their 7"+/- sized iPad, I simply couldn't wait any longer.

I have had every iPad, and they've been great. But a friend at the office bought a Nexus 7, once it arrived it only took me three minutes (literally) to fall in love with the SIZE.

Then as you mentioned, having a file system is quite nice, since it makes things so easy when it comes to syncing it with my Macs & Windows Laptops.

Personally I think the increased competition is the best thing to happen to Apple. Just the kick in the pants they need to stay awake :D

mcman77
Jul 21, 2012, 08:37 PM
Next year... and then next year... Android is yards behind iOS.

Anyway, check out my comparison of the Sexus vs. the iPhone 4S. Sorry, but this tablet form factor... the tweener, has zero reason to live:

http://s675.photobucket.com/albums/vv116/freudling/

Ive seen you post this same thing in several threads and found it really interesting. I was going to ask for some other sites but then I found a clip where they compared it to a ipad 2 and the same sites appeared.

That Tweener didn't seem to have the same faults you're showing in the pics. Don't know how you did it but I can guess why...so i'll just stop taking your word on things especially since you for some unknown reason wanna one handly man handle this 7inch device lol.

ixodes
Jul 21, 2012, 08:45 PM
What is a "tweener"?

It's what people with a very limited vocabulary use, to describe an item they have little knowledge of.

When one has very little command of the English language, slang like this is often used.

They don't call any of the different sized MacBook Airs, or MacBook Pro's "tweeners".

I think they're confused with "wieners". :eek:

MacNowhere
Jul 21, 2012, 09:04 PM
My experience has been just terrific. [..]
I have had every iPad, and they've been great. But a friend at the office bought a Nexus 7, once it arrived it only took me three minutes (literally) to fall in love with the SIZE.

Your experience is clearly wrong. Didn't you know - fraudling has already determined the right size of tablet for you (hint - it's not 7"). And he did all this scientific testing with his custom software. And didn't you see screenshots he posted? Fraudling is the one to listen to.. the ultimate tablet hero.

i'll just stop taking your word on things especially since you for some unknown reason wanna one handly man handle this 7inch device lol.

Blasphemy! You can't stop taking fraudling's word. He is our tablet warrior and crusader, the scientist, and the ultimate decider of the right tablet size for the masses.

Set these misguided souls straight, mighty fraudling. We depend on you!

knucklehead
Jul 21, 2012, 09:08 PM
It's what people with a very limited vocabulary use, to describe an item they have little knowledge of.

When one has very little command of the English language, slang like this is often used.

They don't call any of the different sized MacBook Airs, or MacBook Pro's "tweeners".

I think they're confused with "wieners". :eek:

I take it as a term used by wind-up cult zombies trapped living inside a Steve quote ...

Gotta love the wonderful world of PR (propaganda), and those absorbed by it ...

Edit - And for anyone who might not be familiar with Freud, his nephew Edward Bernays, and the origins of Public Relations, and consumer culture (pretty much required to understand "The World of Apple")... it's well worth checking out the excellent intro to the subject "The Century of the Self":

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9167657690296627941 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?
docid=9167657690296627941)

as amusing as it is disturbing.

Edit again - Not sure why the link doesn't seem to work. Search "The Century of the Self" Part 1 on Google.

Time well spent.

Then go for 2 - 4.

Edit yet again: After watching this again for the first time in a few years, it's a shame this subject gets tangled up so much in politics. If anyone knows of a better simple intro to this subject to this subject -- sans political bias -- please let me know ... this is a subject too important to be easily dismissed.

P.S. - freudling -- bite me

NovaRev
Jul 21, 2012, 09:17 PM
I am somewhat baffled by the people dismissing the Nexus 7 as useless because it's a "tweener." After all, the iPad itself is the perfect example of a "tweener" device between a smartphone and a light laptop; it's not nearly as portable as a phone, and it's also not nearly as functional as a laptop. Does this mean that the iPad is useless too?

The iPad is a functionally in-between device. It handles consumption pretty well--certainly far better than a smartphone--but quickly becomes impractical if portability or productivity are high priorities. It's large enough and heavy enough that it's not highly portable and usable on the move the way a smartphone is, and at the same time it's fairly worthless for anything except very light work; the apps available simply are not powerful enough for getting serious work done.

In productivity scenarios it doesn't even have a real weight advantage over something like the MBA. By the time you add a case/stand and a keyboard to try to maximize your productivity with the iPad the weight difference becomes completely negligible. Even worse, an iPad on a stand with a separate keyboard is far more awkward than a laptop.

The result is that, for some people, it's impossible to travel with just an iPad and a smartphone and expect to be able to get work done. If you're going to end up needing your laptop, why even carry an iPad at all?

I'm sure that many people will agree that this is a silly argument to make. There are obviously uses for the iPad, even though it's a "tweener," and different people use it in different ways that suit them. The exact same thing can be said of a 7" tablet.

I own both the retina iPad and the Nexus 7. They are completely different devices that satisfy different needs. I find the Nexus 7 far easier to carry and use on the go; thumb typing on it while standing or walking around is a vastly superior experience over either a phone (tiny keyboard) or an iPad (incredibly awkward to thumb type on). The hardware is powerful enough and the screen is large enough that it feels like a much better browsing/general media consumption experience than my phone, yet it's still incredibly light weight and portable. Games are less awkward on the smaller form factor because of how light it is.

The bottom line is that tablets of any size are "tweener" devices, iPads included. They all have their uses, benefits and disadvantages. It's silly to dismiss the Nexus 7 as a "waste."

hitekalex
Jul 21, 2012, 09:19 PM
I own both the retina iPad and the Nexus 7. They are completely different devices that satisfy different needs. I find the Nexus 7 far easier to carry and use on the go; thumb typing on it while standing or walking around is a vastly superior experience over either a phone (tiny keyboard) or an iPad (incredibly awkward to thumb type on). The hardware is powerful enough and the screen is large enough that it feels like a much better browsing/general media consumption experience than my phone, yet it's still incredibly light weight and portable.

I agree. Although I haven't yet used Nexus 7, we have both iPad 3 and Nook Color in our household. 7" devices are a lot more ergonomic e-readers, while 9-10" devices are better all-around computing devices.

The whole debate of 7" versus 10" tablet is pointless and a waste of time. There is no single "right size" tablet, just like there is no single "right size" laptop. There is room for 11", 13" and 15" laptops, just as there is room for 7-8" and 10" tablets.

entatlrg
Jul 21, 2012, 09:36 PM
...

All those words and I agree with much of what you wrote comparing to smart phones/laptops, that's all common sense but isn't the point I or others here have made.

It's simple ... 7" tablet or 10" tablet ... for what it's designed to be able to do, how it renders fonts and the user experience it offers sucks compared to a 10" screen. For me at least.

The 7" in its current design and layout is a miss-fit, too small to be a functional, enjoyable to use tablet, too big to be pocketable, not great for one handed or two handed typing, or navigating. Just go read some forms, pdf's, word doc's, surf the net it's just not that great, in my experience.

I wonder if you set a 7" tablet beside a 10" tablet and asked people to pick one and use it for an hour or two ... I'd bet 80% or more choose the 10". And if I'm just going to use something few a moment or look something up I'll grab my smart phone.

I tried it, I don't like it, no problem, I'm super happy with my iPad. You and others like it, that's great, enjoy it no problems whatsoever.

freudling
Jul 21, 2012, 10:25 PM
Ive seen you post this same thing in several threads and found it really interesting. I was going to ask for some other sites but then I found a clip where they compared it to a ipad 2 and the same sites appeared.

That Tweener didn't seem to have the same faults you're showing in the pics. Don't know how you did it but I can guess why...so i'll just stop taking your word on things especially since you for some unknown reason wanna one handly man handle this 7inch device lol.

The photos were taken this morning. Didn't do anything but load up sites on each one. That's it. Don't let people who troll... who don't even own the device, slander people. Ignore them. I own it, along with an iPad, iPhone, iMac, rMBP, MBP, and MBA. I WANT tablets to flood the market because it'll improve my business. But I'm objective enough to realize something that hype and insanity and find it hilarious that anyone believes tweeners will be successful or useful to people.

----------

It's what people with a very limited vocabulary use, to describe an item they have little knowledge of.

When one has very little command of the English language, slang like this is often used.

They don't call any of the different sized MacBook Airs, or MacBook Pro's "tweeners".

I think they're confused with "wieners". :eek:

It was Jobs that coined the term Tweener for this form factor. Looks like on your definition he has little command of English. Meanwhile, you sit in your basement and post on Internet forums.

----------

Your experience is clearly wrong. Didn't you know - fraudling has already determined the right size of tablet for you (hint - it's not 7"). And he did all this scientific testing with his custom software. And didn't you see screenshots he posted? Fraudling is the one to listen to.. the ultimate tablet hero.



Blasphemy! You can't stop taking fraudling's word. He is our tablet warrior and crusader, the scientist, and the ultimate decider of the right tablet size for the masses.

Set these misguided souls straight, mighty fraudling. We depend on you!

You lied about having a Nexus 7 and you've lost all credibility.

ixodes
Jul 21, 2012, 10:25 PM
Your experience is clearly wrong. Didn't you know - fraudling has already determined the right size of tablet for you (hint - it's not 7"). And he did all this scientific testing with his custom software. And didn't you see screenshots he posted? Fraudling is the one to listen to.. the ultimate tablet hero.



Blasphemy! You can't stop taking fraudling's word. He is our tablet warrior and crusader, the scientist, and the ultimate decider of the right tablet size for the masses.

Set these misguided souls straight, mighty fraudling. We depend on you!
What a bizarre post. But then again I'm not a hero worshiper.

freudling
Jul 21, 2012, 10:32 PM
Tweeners will fail in the market, I will bet anyone $100. Anyone. Guaranteed and iCal it.

----------

I am somewhat baffled by the people dismissing the Nexus 7 as useless because it's a "tweener." After all, the iPad itself is the perfect example of a "tweener" device between a smartphone and a light laptop; it's not nearly as portable as a phone, and it's also not nearly as functional as a laptop. Does this mean that the iPad is useless too?

The iPad is a functionally in-between device. It handles consumption pretty well--certainly far better than a smartphone--but quickly becomes impractical if portability or productivity are high priorities. It's large enough and heavy enough that it's not highly portable and usable on the move the way a smartphone is, and at the same time it's fairly worthless for anything except very light work; the apps available simply are not powerful enough for getting serious work done.

In productivity scenarios it doesn't even have a real weight advantage over something like the MBA. By the time you add a case/stand and a keyboard to try to maximize your productivity with the iPad the weight difference becomes completely negligible. Even worse, an iPad on a stand with a separate keyboard is far more awkward than a laptop.

The result is that, for some people, it's impossible to travel with just an iPad and a smartphone and expect to be able to get work done. If you're going to end up needing your laptop, why even carry an iPad at all?

I'm sure that many people will agree that this is a silly argument to make. There are obviously uses for the iPad, even though it's a "tweener," and different people use it in different ways that suit them. The exact same thing can be said of a 7" tablet.

I own both the retina iPad and the Nexus 7. They are completely different devices that satisfy different needs. I find the Nexus 7 far easier to carry and use on the go; thumb typing on it while standing or walking around is a vastly superior experience over either a phone (tiny keyboard) or an iPad (incredibly awkward to thumb type on). The hardware is powerful enough and the screen is large enough that it feels like a much better browsing/general media consumption experience than my phone, yet it's still incredibly light weight and portable. Games are less awkward on the smaller form factor because of how light it is.

The bottom line is that tablets of any size are "tweener" devices, iPads included. They all have their uses, benefits and disadvantages. It's silly to dismiss the Nexus 7 as a "waste."

Nope. Different product categories. The iPad is not a tweener, it is the largest multi-touch device Apple makes. Don't confuse it with point and click devices. A Mini is a tweener as it's sandwiched in between an iPad and an iPhone.

----------

All those words and I agree with much of what you wrote comparing to smart phones/laptops, that's all common sense but isn't the point I or others here have made.

It's simple ... 7" tablet or 10" tablet ... for what it's designed to be able to do, how it renders fonts and the user experience it offers sucks compared to a 10" screen. For me at least.

The 7" in its current design and layout is a miss-fit, too small to be a functional, enjoyable to use tablet, too big to be pocketable, not great for one handed or two handed typing, or navigating. Just go read some forms, pdf's, word doc's, surf the net it's just not that great, in my experience.

I wonder if you set a 7" tablet beside a 10" tablet and asked people to pick one and use it for an hour or two ... I'd bet 80% or more choose the 10". And if I'm just going to use something few a moment or look something up I'll grab my smart phone.

I tried it, I don't like it, no problem, I'm super happy with my iPad. You and others like it, that's great, enjoy it no problems whatsoever.

100% agreed. And there are several others on this forum that share the same opinion. Meanwhile, we have Larry, Curly, and Moe... who don't own the device trolling non-stop acting like they do.

The Nexus 7 sucks. All tweeners suck. And to those who really like it, that's cool. But it's not a big market because it's virtually worthless when smartphones and iPads are in the mix. I just picked up the Sexus and played with it for a few minutes online and again I go right back to my iPhone because it's so much smaller and the browsing experience is better. I find the form factor of the Sexus completely useless because I'm not getting any extra benefit to using it over my iPhone or iPad.

brentsg
Jul 21, 2012, 10:53 PM
What a bizarre post. But then again I'm not a hero worshiper.

sarcasm, meet internet

Mac.World
Jul 21, 2012, 11:08 PM
Tweeners will fail in the market, I will bet anyone $100. Anyone. Guaranteed and iCal it.

----------



Nope. Different product categories. The iPad is not a tweener, it is the largest multi-touch device Apple makes. Don't confuse it with point and click devices. A Mini is a tweener as it's sandwiched in between an iPad and an iPhone.

----------



100% agreed. And there are several others on this forum that share the same opinion. Meanwhile, we have Larry, Curly, and Moe... who don't own the device trolling non-stop acting like they do.

The Nexus 7 sucks. All tweeners suck. And to those who really like it, that's cool. But it's not a big market because it's virtually worthless when smartphones and iPads are in the mix. I just picked up the Sexus and played with it for a few minutes online and again I go right back to my iPhone because it's so much smaller and the browsing experience is better. I find the form factor of the Sexus completely useless because I'm not getting any extra benefit to using it over my iPhone or iPad.
I think you are confusing your ideology with that of every other person. The 7" form factor is in demand. That pos Kindle Fire wouldn't have sold a few million if there wasn't some demand. Apple wouldn't be making a mini iPad if there wasn't some demand. Just because the manufacturers have thus far sucked at making a 7 or 8.9" tablet does not, in itself, indicate that those smaller form factors are useless.
I don't have the Nexus 7, so can't provide a personal opinion, you could very well be right that the Nexus 7 sucks. I will let you owners debate that. I'll get my popcorn. http://www.r6messagenet.com/forums/images/smilies/Popcorn.gif

phpmaven
Jul 21, 2012, 11:28 PM
But I'm objective enough to realize something that hype and insanity and find it hilarious that anyone believes tweeners will be successful or useful to people.

Dude, I hate to have to be the one to break this to you, but the Nexus 7 is selling like hotcakes and is getting great reviews. I have one as well as an iPad "3". I think it's a great device. I still like my iPad better for general web surfing, but I'm definitely digging the Nexus as well.

freudling
Jul 21, 2012, 11:30 PM
Dude, I hate to have to be the one to break this to you, but the Nexus 7 is selling like hotcakes and is getting great reviews. I have one as well as an iPad "3". I think it's a great device. I still like my iPad better for general web surfing, but I'm definitely digging the Nexus as well.

Show me the sales data. I don't care about media hype and headlines. Show me how many devices have actually sold to consumers and not "shipped" numbers.

But that's cool, I want to see these numbers in 2 months time... because I predict at that point if they really are selling any that sales will meet the same fate as the Kindle Fire: that they'll fall off of a cliff.

ixodes
Jul 21, 2012, 11:45 PM
sarcasm, meet internet
Ten points, your great humor is timed perfectly :)

Night Spring
Jul 22, 2012, 12:07 AM
Show me the sales data. I don't care about media hype and headlines. Show me how many devices have actually sold to consumers and not "shipped" numbers.

Actually, in this case shipped = sold, as the Nexus 7 appears to be selling out everywhere. However, we don't know how many did ship/sell, it'd be interesting to see if any concrete number is announced.

Mac.World
Jul 22, 2012, 12:08 AM
Show me the sales data. I don't care about media hype and headlines. Show me how many devices have actually sold to consumers and not "shipped" numbers.

But that's cool, I want to see these numbers in 2 months time... because I predict at that point if they really are selling any that sales will meet the same fate as the Kindle Fire: that they'll fall off of a cliff.

Does Google show their Nexus line sales figures? I don't think they do. Analysts can only get reseller data. All I could find were articles claiming major outlets were sold out and that first day sales and pre-sales equalled roughly 500,000 on the first day, in the US. I have also seen figures of 1 million now sold. Of course, this still pales in comparison to iPad sales, and we'll have to see if this tablet maintains sales in 1 to 2 months (as you pointed out).

That said, I tend to agree with you. I don't think this particular tablet will be able to sustain these sales figures much past the 2-3 month mark. Although I do think it will be an Android best seller.

knucklehead
Jul 22, 2012, 12:16 AM
I don't think this particular tablet will be able to sustain these sales figures much past the 2-3 month mark. Although I do think it will be an Android best seller.

I'm with you there.
It's not at all the 7" tablet I want, but an Android tablet worth checking out ... yes!

NovaRev
Jul 22, 2012, 12:48 AM
Nope. Different product categories. The iPad is not a tweener, it is the largest multi-touch device Apple makes. Don't confuse it with point and click devices. A Mini is a tweener as it's sandwiched in between an iPad and an iPhone.

The entire product category of tablets is a "tweener" category; the iPad is a "tweener" device. It is a device that is designed to fit in-between a smartphone and a laptop, and as a result it sacrifices the major strengths of both of those product categories: the portability of smartphones and the power of laptops.

Let's face it, tablets are toys. The iPad is a toy. If you have a smartphone and a laptop a tablet is largely unnecessary. Yes, their larger screens make them more comfortable than a phone and yes, you can do a little bit of work on them. But in the grand scheme of things, tablets/iPads make vast sacrifices of both power and portability without proving to be unambiguously useful in ways that cannot be matched by a phone or laptop. In other words, they've yet to prove that a tablet is a necessary device. But are tablets fun? Certainly. Toys are lots of fun.

Far too often I find myself having to put down my iPad and go use a real computer because I've run into something that I simply cannot accomplish on a tablet. Don't get me wrong--I love my iPad (and the Nexus 7 too). But it is a device that I need the way I need my smartphone and laptop? The answer is a very clear "no."

And while I'm sure that there are people who have found a "need" for their iPad in the way smartphones/laptops serve very clear "needs," I suspect that the vast majority of buyers regard the iPad as a fun toy that fits between their phone and laptop but certainly won't replace either device.

So let's not pretend that iPads are anything but "tweeners," because tablets as an entire product category are the very definition of "tweeners."

Night Spring
Jul 22, 2012, 01:07 AM
And while I'm sure that there are people who have found a "need" for their iPad in the way smartphones/laptops serve very clear "needs," I suspect that the vast majority of buyers regard the iPad as a fun toy that fits between their phone and laptop but certainly won't replace either device.

Well... On the one hand, even for those who have specific needs that are served by the iPad, I doubt it replaces their laptop or phone. Then on the other hand, there are a whole category of users who never needed a laptop in the first place. Like my aunt and uncle, who are now using iPads to surf the web and FaceTime with their grandson, but whose laptop sat for years on their desk, covered with dust.

Personally, the iPad isn't a device I absolutely need, but it's the device I like the most and use the most. And I don't think it's a toy -- or if it is, then the smartphone is also a toy. At least, for the way I use them, my iPhone and iPad usage are so similar, there's no reason why they should be placed in different usage categories. In fact, the iPad is a bit more useful to me than my iPhone, because it is large enough for me to actually get some writing/editing done on it. I use both iPad and iPhone about equally for texting, and for calendar/todo/other PDA duties. Yes, I need my computer for longer documents and excel, but just because the iPad/iPhone is for lighter work, they are still work tools for me -- so I hesitate to call them toys.

freudling
Jul 22, 2012, 01:17 AM
The entire product category of tablets is a "tweener" category; the iPad is a "tweener" device. It is a device that is designed to fit in-between a smartphone and a laptop, and as a result it sacrifices the major strengths of both of those product categories: the portability of smartphones and the power of laptops.

Let's face it, tablets are toys. The iPad is a toy. If you have a smartphone and a laptop a tablet is largely unnecessary. Yes, their larger screens make them more comfortable than a phone and yes, you can do a little bit of work on them. But in the grand scheme of things, tablets/iPads make vast sacrifices of both power and portability without proving to be unambiguously useful in ways that cannot be matched by a phone or laptop. In other words, they've yet to prove that a tablet is a necessary device. But are tablets fun? Certainly. Toys are lots of fun.

Far too often I find myself having to put down my iPad and go use a real computer because I've run into something that I simply cannot accomplish on a tablet. Don't get me wrong--I love my iPad (and the Nexus 7 too). But it is a device that I need the way I need my smartphone and laptop? The answer is a very clear "no."

And while I'm sure that there are people who have found a "need" for their iPad in the way smartphones/laptops serve very clear "needs," I suspect that the vast majority of buyers regard the iPad as a fun toy that fits between their phone and laptop but certainly won't replace either device.

So let's not pretend that iPads are anything but "tweeners," because tablets as an entire product category are the very definition of "tweeners."

It's not an in between device: it's in a category of its own.

knucklehead
Jul 22, 2012, 01:24 AM
The entire product category of tablets is a "tweener" category; the iPad is a "tweener" device. It is a device that is designed to fit in-between a smartphone and a laptop, and as a result it sacrifices the major strengths of both of those product categories: the portability of smartphones and the power of laptops.

Let's face it, tablets are toys. The iPad is a toy. If you have a smartphone and a laptop a tablet is largely unnecessary. Yes, their larger screens make them more comfortable than a phone and yes, you can do a little bit of work on them. But in the grand scheme of things, tablets/iPads make vast sacrifices of both power and portability without proving to be unambiguously useful in ways that cannot be matched by a phone or laptop. In other words, they've yet to prove that a tablet is a necessary device. But are tablets fun? Certainly. Toys are lots of fun.

Far too often I find myself having to put down my iPad and go use a real computer because I've run into something that I simply cannot accomplish on a tablet. Don't get me wrong--I love my iPad (and the Nexus 7 too). But it is a device that I need the way I need my smartphone and laptop? The answer is a very clear "no."

And while I'm sure that there are people who have found a "need" for their iPad in the way smartphones/laptops serve very clear "needs," I suspect that the vast majority of buyers regard the iPad as a fun toy that fits between their phone and laptop but certainly won't replace either device.

So let's not pretend that iPads are anything but "tweeners," because tablets as an entire product category are the very definition of "tweeners."

Great post -- although I think you've been a bit broad in you're categorizing of "tweeners'.

I just settled on a 11" Air that absolutely kills my iPad in terms of a productivity device ... with about the same degree of portability.

I'm hoping for a 7.85 iPad to bridge the gap between the Air, and the iPhone that I don't want (which is filled just fine by the dumb phone that works for me).

Somewhere between compact laptop, and dumb phone, is a solution that works for everyone -- although the same solution may not work for everyone ...

Edit - The same solution may not work for everyone, of course means that a variety of solutions should be offered in this area.

xkmxkmxlmx
Jul 22, 2012, 01:31 AM
It's what people with a very limited vocabulary use, to describe an item they have little knowledge of.


Don't worry, I figured as much ;)

xkmxkmxlmx
Jul 22, 2012, 01:36 AM
This.

Jobs is right. Check out my comparison photos of what content looks like on the iPhone 4S compared to the Nexus Sexus. My smartphone does everything better than it: the Sexus has little reason to exist.

http://s675.photobucket.com/albums/vv116/freudling/Suck%20It/

Dude really? Just stop. "sexus" is the best you can come up with? Is that supposed to be some sort of insult?

Also, your gallery is hideous. It serves no purpose. What was your point in posting it again?

Lastly, why do you care if someone else enjoys a product? Does it affect you directly in any way? You don't have to have anything to do with it if you don't want to. I just don't understand your hatred. Surely you have better things to get worked up about?

"suck it"? Really, man?

NovaRev
Jul 22, 2012, 01:52 AM
Personally, the iPad isn't a device I absolutely need, but it's the device I like the most and use the most. And I don't think it's a toy -- or if it is, then the smartphone is also a toy. At least, for the way I use them, my iPhone and iPad usage are so similar, there's no reason why they should be placed in different usage categories. In fact, the iPad is a bit more useful to me than my iPhone, because it is large enough for me to actually get some writing/editing done on it. I use both iPad and iPhone about equally for texting, and for calendar/todo/other PDA duties. Yes, I need my computer for longer documents and excel, but just because the iPad/iPhone is for lighter work, they are still work tools for me -- so I hesitate to call them toys.

Well, think of it this way: between your iPhone and your iPad, which one could you afford to forget at home and feel OK about it? Certainly you can use an iPad as a work tool in the same way you use your iPhone (and I agree that an iPad is definitely a more comfortable experience in that respect), but which device would you say is indispensable to you?

Maybe the answer for you is the iPad, and I can certainly see why. But for me it's definitely the phone. If there's something I can't accomplish on my phone, I'm not going to be able to accomplish it on the iPad either--I'll have to wait until I can get to my computer.

That's what makes an iPad more of a toy to me. While it provides a better experience than a phone, its benefits are not great enough that it's indispensable to me. It's something that excels at the entertainment aspects that I used to rely solely on my phone for (watching videos, browsing the web, etc.) and that makes it a very fun device to use, but it's not something I need.

----------

It's not an in between device: it's in a category of its own.

Yes, it is in a category of its own...a category that is fundamentally defined by the fact that it is a "tweener" category between phones and laptops.

The iGentleman
Jul 22, 2012, 02:21 AM
One thing I like about the Nexus tablet is it has NFC. I can't tell you how convenient it is to be able to tap my phone to my tablet and beam something over to it. It's so quick and easy to do.

freudling
Jul 22, 2012, 02:46 AM
Well, think of it this way: between your iPhone and your iPad, which one could you afford to forget at home and feel OK about it? Certainly you can use an iPad as a work tool in the same way you use your iPhone (and I agree that an iPad is definitely a more comfortable experience in that respect), but which device would you say is indispensable to you?

Maybe the answer for you is the iPad, and I can certainly see why. But for me it's definitely the phone. If there's something I can't accomplish on my phone, I'm not going to be able to accomplish it on the iPad either--I'll have to wait until I can get to my computer.

That's what makes an iPad more of a toy to me. While it provides a better experience than a phone, its benefits are not great enough that it's indispensable to me. It's something that excels at the entertainment aspects that I used to rely solely on my phone for (watching videos, browsing the web, etc.) and that makes it a very fun device to use, but it's not something I need.

----------



Yes, it is in a category of its own...a category that is fundamentally defined by the fact that it is a "tweener" category between phones and laptops.

It's not in between two devices in the same category: it's not a 9.7" laptop with a 3.5" laptop and an 11" laptop and... it's not supposed to be like a laptop or replace a laptop. Apples and oranges.

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Dude really? Just stop. "sexus" is the best you can come up with? Is that supposed to be some sort of insult?

Also, your gallery is hideous. It serves no purpose. What was your point in posting it again?

Lastly, why do you care if someone else enjoys a product? Does it affect you directly in any way? You don't have to have anything to do with it if you don't want to. I just don't understand your hatred. Surely you have better things to get worked up about?

"suck it"? Really, man?

Dude...

First Sexus: because it sounds funny.

Second, your gallery is hideous. It serves no purpose. What was your point in posting it again?

This statement has as much value as the following:

a;dklfja;slkdfja;ldfkjasd;lfkjad;fslkj

In other words, it's baseless with zero qualification: it's based on nothing. The point is to show how Websites, full blown Websites, look on the Sexus compared to the iPhone. And as can be seen, full blown Websites look better on the iPhone because:

1. In some cases the text is rendered LARGER;
2. The Retina display
3. There are several mobile sites specifically formatted for smartphones but not for Tweeners, which makes the Web a "less pinch and zoom affair".
4. The text is grainy on the Sexus.

The point of this is to show that surfing the Web on the Sexus isn't better than the iPhone. And because of this, it's not offering anything over the smartphone in this regard except more compromises: you can't both hold it with one hand and use it at the same time like a smartphone.

And there is no hatred. I think the device sucks. I don't care if other people like it. What I won't stand for is trolls: people, like on here, who claim to own a device with evidence that they don't. They just troll. Delusional, incredulous people who will stop at nothing to spread their delusions. People who ignore reality and live in a state of delusion.

If you own the Sexus, truly own it, then chime in. If you don't, you probably have no business vehemently arguing with people about this matter.

TheMacBookPro
Jul 22, 2012, 02:51 AM
Dude...

First Sexus: because it sounds funny.

Second, your gallery is hideous. It serves no purpose. What was your point in posting it again?

This statement has as much value as the following:

a;dklfja;slkdfja;ldfkjasd;lfkjad;fslkj

In other words, it's baseless with zero qualification: it's based on nothing. The point is to show how Websites, full blown Websites, look on the Sexus compared to the iPhone. And as can be seen, full blown Websites look better on the iPhone because:

1. In some cases the text is rendered LARGER;
2. The Retina display
3. There are several mobile sites specifically formatted for smartphones but not for Tweeners, which makes the Web a "less pinch and zoom affair".
4. The text is grainy on the Sexus.

The point of this is to show that surfing the Web on the Sexus isn't better than the iPhone. And because of this, it's not offering anything over the smartphone in this regard except more compromises: you can't both hold it with one hand and use it at the same time like a smartphone.

And there is no hatred. I think the device sucks. I don't care if other people like it. What I won't stand for is trolls: people, like on here, who claim to own a device with evidence that they don't. They just troll. Delusional, incredulous people who will stop at nothing to spread their delusions. People who ignore reality and live in a state of delusion.

If you own the Sexus, truly own it, then chime in. If you don't, you probably have no business vehemently arguing with people about this matter.

I'm all for a well balanced, non biased argument, but your posts just lost all credibility once you started calling it a 'Sexus'. I'm not sure if you realize it, but that makes you sound like a rather unintelligent fellow, even though I'm sure you are not unintelligent.

I am viewing desktop websites on mine and they appear just fine. Of course mobile websites don't look good on it, those were designed for smaller displays. Text appears perfectly clear, no blurryness or grainy text either.

FWIW I can't stand viewing the same desktop websites on my iPhone, it's way too small to be usable.

NovaRev
Jul 22, 2012, 02:55 AM
It's not in between two devices in the same category: it's not a 9.7" laptop with a 3.5" laptop and an 11" laptop and... it's not supposed to be like a laptop or replace a laptop. Apples and oranges.

By you very own definition here a 7" tablet cannot be called a tweener; a smartphone is a different category of device, and therefore a 7" tablet is not in-between two devices in the same category.

But this is splitting hairs and you're avoiding my point: the entire product category of tablets--regardless of their size--is a category of "tweeners" sitting between phones and laptops. The iPad, by its very nature as a tablet, is a tweener.

EDIT: And it comes with all of the drawbacks that "tweener" implies, that you're using to dismiss the Nexus 7 as a "waste." A tablet like an iPad is a compromise device between a smartphone and a laptop that sacrifices the major benefits of both devices without making a truly compelling case that it does something irrefutably better than either form factor to the point that it is necessary for it to exist.

Night Spring
Jul 22, 2012, 03:21 AM
Well, think of it this way: between your iPhone and your iPad, which one could you afford to forget at home and feel OK about it? Certainly you can use an iPad as a work tool in the same way you use your iPhone (and I agree that an iPad is definitely a more comfortable experience in that respect), but which device would you say is indispensable to you?

Maybe the answer for you is the iPad,

Actually, it is. I don't really need a phone, I just got one because my work offered to pay for it, but before that, I was perfectly content with an iPod touch. The pocketability of iPhone / iPod touch is extremely convenient, but if I could only have one, I think I'd definitely go with the iPad -- as long as it was the one with the cellular connection, that is! Oh, and maybe that's another difference? I've always gotten my iPads with cellular connection, and it is the first always-connected to Internet device I owned. So that's why it's always been more than a toy to me. Where my laptop and iPod touch were both dead to the world while on the go, the iPad was always connected. To me, the iPhone is more a smaller iPad, than the other way around.


Yes, it is in a category of its own...a category that is fundamentally defined by the fact that it is a "tweener" category between phones and laptops.

That's one way of looking at it, and that is how Steve Jobs described it when introducing the first iPad, but you could also look at it as, well, there are two categories of devices, and one is laptops, and one is multi-touch tablets (iPhones are just mini tablets). And within each category, there are various sizes. Like, let's say somebody came out with a 12 inch tablet. You wouldn't all of a sudden think that the 11 inch Air is a tweener between the 12 inch tablet and the current iPad, would you? Or let's include the various desktop models in the discussion. Is the 13 inch MacBook a tweener between the iMac and the iPad? No, I don't think this kind of thinking makes much sense, even though Jobs used it when introducing the iPad. It was a useful way to explain the iPad to a world that had never seen one before, but now that we've had them for a few years, I think it's time we stopped thinking of tablets as in between laptops and phones. IMO, we now have desktops, laptops and multitouch devices (smartphones + tablets), and each category has its own distinct advantages and uses.

JoJo Zzang
Jul 22, 2012, 04:23 AM
I'm wondering the same. I don't understand the recent trend where people review, ask for suggestions and so on, abour non Apple devices on something called macrumors. Some non Apple products are great, but I don't see why they need to be discussed REGULARLY here.

You are in "Alternatives to iOS and iOS Devices. :roll eyes:

Don't want to read... Don't click. :cool:

NovaRev
Jul 22, 2012, 05:09 AM
Actually, it is. I don't really need a phone, I just got one because my work offered to pay for it, but before that, I was perfectly content with an iPod touch. The pocketability of iPhone / iPod touch is extremely convenient, but if I could only have one, I think I'd definitely go with the iPad -- as long as it was the one with the cellular connection, that is! Oh, and maybe that's another difference? I've always gotten my iPads with cellular connection, and it is the first always-connected to Internet device I owned. So that's why it's always been more than a toy to me. Where my laptop and iPod touch were both dead to the world while on the go, the iPad was always connected. To me, the iPhone is more a smaller iPad, than the other way around.

That's certainly valid, and I've toyed with the idea of doing something similar--perhaps ditch the smartphone for a dumb phone and carry a cell-connected tablet instead. I know that this is a setup that works nicely for some people.

For me personally though, I don't think I could make it work. My situation is kind of the opposite of your's :p A smartphone was my first always-connected device and always-connected iPads didn't come around until years later.

Here's why I don't think it would work for me. I'm accustomed to having that always-connected device fit in my pocket, since before the original iPhone was even a thing. We bring these highly personal devices into our lives and they become parts of us, like watches, eye glasses, etc. So in this way my phone is almost inextricably linked to me.

So I love the idea of getting my smartphone experience on a larger screen and ditching the smartphone for a dumb phone, but here's the problem. I can't shove an iPad in my pocket. In fact, the size of it really necessitates a small backpack, bag, briefcase, etc. to transport it.

I simply cannot carry something like that 100% of the time the way my smartphone is with me 100% of the time. And I know I'd end up feeling naked if I went out with the dumb phone and left the always-connected tablet at home.

So personally I think I disagree that smartphones and tablets can be folded into the same category. Yes, they share multitouch as their input method and yes they share similar features and uses, but the smartphone is a device from a different league. It's a proven, powerful, stand-alone personal pocket computer and communicator that's always in my pocket.

From this perspective you can see how the iPad becomes a fairly superfluous device. From your perspective, would it be fair to say that your iPhone is that superfluous device rather than the iPad?

Night Spring
Jul 22, 2012, 05:17 AM
You are in "Alternatives to iOS and iOS Devices. :roll eyes:

Don't want to read... Don't click. :cool:

Actually, that post was probably made before this thread was moved to this section.

From this perspective you can see how the iPad becomes a fairly superfluous device. From your perspective, would it be fair to say that your iPhone is that superfluous device rather than the iPad?

Since I got my iPhone, I do sometimes just leave my iPad home and just carry my iPhone, as it is nice to walk out with nothing to carry and have everything in my pocket. But if I could just have one, I'll pick the iPad, because I couldn't do without the iPad's large screen. I would rather live with the inconvenience of having to always carry a bag. I really only use the iPhone when I'm outside the house, or doing the laundry. On trains and buses, depending on my mood, I can use either the iPhone or the iPad. Otherwise, I'm mostly on my iPad, and it almost never leaves my hand 24/7.

Funny thing, but I never lined up to get anything, ever, but I lined up to get the iPad. For years, I'd be using a heavy laptop on the sofa or in bed, wishing there were some way to detach the keyboard and just have the screen. Then the iPhone and iPod touch came out, and they were very nice but the screen was just too small. Oh, and I'd tried some of the early Windows Mobile devices before the Palm and Blackberry smartphones came out, but they were too small and not all that powerful. When I got my first iPod touch, I said to myself, wow, here's a REAL computer, in the palm of my hand. Now if only it were just a little bigger. I think I was hoping for something around 5-7 inches. :p Apple over-delivered and came out with a 9.7 inch screen. So the iPad is the computer I've been waiting for for many, many years, at least as far back as when I got my first laptop. For me, it's not in between any other things, it's the best device I have. Sure, there are some things that still can't be done on the iPad, so if I fell into dire financial straits and could have only one computing device, then that one device may have to be a MacBook Air. But the iPad is definitely the device that makes me the most happy, and out of all my devices, the one I use the most.

Rogifan
Jul 22, 2012, 07:15 AM
It will be interesting to see what the sales figures on this. Though I suppose google could pull an amazon and not release any figures. Will also be interesting to see how Amazon responds. From every review I've seen the Nexus 7 is a superior device to the Kindle Fire. For people wanting a low end tablet what's the appeal of the Fire now? I suppose they can reduce the price even further but then they'll really be losing money on the device. At what point does that no longer make business sense?

maflynn
Jul 22, 2012, 08:01 AM
^^^ I don't think sales figures are needed to see how popular the Nexus is. I think like the Kindle Fire, Google has a nice tablet and people are going for it. you get a great tablet for a low price.

revelated
Jul 22, 2012, 10:10 AM
I'm wondering the same. I don't understand the recent trend where people review, ask for suggestions and so on, abour non Apple devices on something called macrumors. Some non Apple products are great, but I don't see why they need to be discussed REGULARLY here.

I would submit that if you prefer to keep blinders on about "the others", that's your choice. It hinders your objectivity. I know that's precisely what Steve Jobs wants you to do and I respect your dedication to your lord. But the reality is that you cannot be unbiased without seeing all sides of the spectrum.

I never would have gotten off of the BlackBerry platform if I didn't take a leap of faith with Android.

I gave iPhone/iPod/iPad a try, found them way too limiting and oversimplified. Windows Mobile was powerful but too clunky. BlackBerry is a workhorse but not enough flexibility and personal control. Android Froyo was a childish OS at best. Gingerbread was a step in the right direction, and Ice Cream Sandwich is on the border.

You never really understand what you need until you at least expose yourself to all that's out there. I constantly see people say "who cares about widgets!!!" yet those same people have never even used good widgets to understand why they're valuable. Those same people may very well get a kick out of Siri lamenting Steve Jobs' death; who knows.

The TRUE workhorses will try other platforms to find what works best for them.

That is the value of this thread. If you don't like it stay out of it. Fair?

freudling
Jul 22, 2012, 10:56 AM
I'm all for a well balanced, non biased argument, but your posts just lost all credibility once you started calling it a 'Sexus'. I'm not sure if you realize it, but that makes you sound like a rather unintelligent fellow, even though I'm sure you are not unintelligent.

I am viewing desktop websites on mine and they appear just fine. Of course mobile websites don't look good on it, those were designed for smaller displays. Text appears perfectly clear, no blurryness or grainy text either.

FWIW I can't stand viewing the same desktop websites on my iPhone, it's way too small to be usable.

You just lost all credibility.

----------

By you very own definition here a 7" tablet cannot be called a tweener; a smartphone is a different category of device, and therefore a 7" tablet is not in-between two devices in the same category.

But this is splitting hairs and you're avoiding my point: the entire product category of tablets--regardless of their size--is a category of "tweeners" sitting between phones and laptops. The iPad, by its very nature as a tablet, is a tweener.

EDIT: And it comes with all of the drawbacks that "tweener" implies, that you're using to dismiss the Nexus 7 as a "waste." A tablet like an iPad is a compromise device between a smartphone and a laptop that sacrifices the major benefits of both devices without making a truly compelling case that it does something irrefutably better than either form factor to the point that it is necessary for it to exist.

They are all the same category: multi-touch devices.

TheMacBookPro
Jul 22, 2012, 01:08 PM
You just lost all credibility.

I see. I was hoping that you weren't just another anti-this, anti-that troll, but it appears that you are. Not replying to my points does not make you correct.

ChazUK
Jul 22, 2012, 01:15 PM
I'm stuck on a do I/don't I buy the Nexus 7.

I do think the best Android experiences are had on Nexus devices and can't say I've had a nexus I haven't liked. The fact we own a Transformer Prime puts me off of the purchase a little.

I doing mind the 7 inch form factor at all (used to own the original Galaxy Tab) and think it'd be a perfect bedtime companion as I do find the Prime and iPad a little too large for bedtime reading/browsing and video watching.

Once the 16gb versions are readily available I'll see what I do. 8gb just won't cut it.

freudling
Jul 22, 2012, 04:01 PM
I see. I was hoping that you weren't just another anti-this, anti-that troll, but it appears that you are. Not replying to my points does not make you correct.

No I am not a troll. It is you that trolls like the others. I've posted nothing but objective stuff.

1. I actually own the Nexus 7, unlike many others here.
2. I've actually done usability testing.
3. I've posted comparisons of the Nexus 7 online next to the iPhone.

Most other people? Handwaving and name calling.

----------

I'm stuck on a do I/don't I buy the Nexus 7.

I do think the best Android experiences are had on Nexus devices and can't say I've had a nexus I haven't liked. The fact we own a Transformer Prime puts me off of the purchase a little.

I doing mind the 7 inch form factor at all (used to own the original Galaxy Tab) and think it'd be a perfect bedtime companion as I do find the Prime and iPad a little too large for bedtime reading/browsing and video watching.

Once the 16gb versions are readily available I'll see what I do. 8gb just won't cut it.

Buy the Galaxy SIII if you're really wanting to go down this Android road thing. My advice is that the Sexus is a waste. But it's up to you. Go and try one for a good 15 minutes and see what you think.

TheMacBookPro
Jul 22, 2012, 04:03 PM
No I am not a troll. It is you that trolls like the others. I've posted nothing but objective stuff.

1. I actually own the Nexus 7, unlike many others here.
2. I've actually done usability testing.
3. I've posted comparisons of the Nexus 7 online next to the iPhone.

Most other people? Handwaving and name calling.

1. and 2. are both true in my case. I can post pictures if you like. How exactly does that make me a troll? By stating my opinion, backed with several hours' of experience with the Nexus 7, that the iPhone is an inferior device?

freudling
Jul 22, 2012, 04:21 PM
1. and 2. are both true in my case. I can post pictures if you like. How exactly does that make me a troll? By stating my opinion, backed with several hours' of experience with the Nexus 7, that the iPhone is an inferior device?

Right, and how does me doing the same in addition to doing more make me a troll?

NovaRev
Jul 22, 2012, 06:01 PM
They are all the same category: multi-touch devices.

You're going to have to do better than that. For someone who seems to be interested in the minute details of user experience this is an oddly weak and vague argument. It is wide open to interpretation and completely without nuance.

Multi-touch is an input method, not a category of devices. By itself it's a wholly inadequate descriptor for a device.

You might as well have said, "motorcycles and cars are in the same category: wheeled transportation devices."

freudling
Jul 22, 2012, 06:11 PM
You're going to have to do better than that. For someone who seems to be interested in the minute details of user experience this is an oddly weak and vague argument. It is wide open to interpretation and completely without nuance.

Multi-touch is an input method, not a category of devices. By itself it's a wholly inadequate descriptor for a device.

You might as well have said, "motorcycles and cars are in the same category: wheeled transportation devices."

We call them mobile-slate devices.

Vegastouch
Jul 22, 2012, 06:30 PM
My Nexus 7 is collecting dust while I hammer through my day and night with my iPhone and iPad. It's a waste: nobody needs tweeners.

Why did you keep it then? Ill give you $100 for it since you dont like it. Better than it just collecting dust.

knucklehead
Jul 22, 2012, 06:33 PM
Why did you keep it then? Ill give you $100 for it since you dont like it. Better than it just collecting dust.

I was going to offer to buy it from him too ... until he started calling it "His Sexus".

Would you really want to touch that thing?

Vegastouch
Jul 22, 2012, 06:43 PM
I was going to offer to buy it from him too ... until he started calling it "His Sexus".

Would you really want to touch that thing?

LOL, well i dont know.

I dont get the Sexus name that he thinks it sounds funny. Kinda dumb if you ask me. I dont know, i guess this guy is just Anti anything Apple. Says he is posting objective things but i dont see it. I just see ridiculous comments and im sure while he says the Nexus 7 is a waste...im sure he will say the 7.8" iPad will be a great device.
I am going to get me a Nexus 7 down the road since it is such a good price. $249 for a 16GB tablet is really good. Much rather spend that than $499 on a iPad3.

NovaRev
Jul 22, 2012, 07:02 PM
We call them mobile-slate devices.

...Which is only adequate for describing most iPad-style tablets, and barely, vaguely describes only some aspects of a smartphone--and in a tenuous way.

There's a reason that smartphones and tablets are considered different categories of products. It's because they are.

freudling
Jul 22, 2012, 08:10 PM
Why did you keep it then? Ill give you $100 for it since you dont like it. Better than it just collecting dust.

Development purposes. We develop software for mobile-slate devices. At this point we may test content on it because our business is primarily focused on tablets. However, I'm not wasting a bunch of resources on the form factor because as you know I think it's a dead end. I'm not the only decision maker though.

----------

...Which is only adequate for describing most iPad-style tablets, and barely, vaguely describes only some aspects of a smartphone--and in a tenuous way.

There's a reason that smartphones and tablets are considered different categories of products. It's because they are.

This last bit is a useful as this:

adsf;liadjsf;lkasdfj

It's baseless. It is just because I say so! Is your approach.

Mobile-slate devices illustrates perfectly smarthpones, iPod Touches, and tablets. They are all:

1. Multi-touch devices.
2. All slates.
3. All using the same software scaled for the screens.
4. All using virtually identical hardware.

They are one and the same, just different sizes. Ergo, tweener.

Night Spring
Jul 22, 2012, 08:22 PM
...Which is only adequate for describing most iPad-style tablets, and barely, vaguely describes only some aspects of a smartphone--and in a tenuous way.

There's a reason that smartphones and tablets are considered different categories of products. It's because they are.

But I'd argue that smartphones and tablets are subcategories within a larger category. For instance, currently, both tablets and smartphones run the same OS. iPad and iPhone run iOS, and Android tablets and phones all run Aundroid. HP/Palm had smartphones and tablets that all ran WebOS. It might be true that consumers see tablets and smartphones as distinct categories, but from a devloper's point of view, I think they would appear as variations within the same category. That is, if you have developed an app for a smartphone, then making a tablet version of that app is a much simpler matter than porting to desktop/laptop, which might require an entirely different programming language.

knucklehead
Jul 22, 2012, 08:36 PM
But I'd argue that smartphones and tablets are subcategories within a larger category. For instance, currently, both tablets and smartphones run the same OS. iPad and iPhone run iOS, and Android tablets and phones all run Aundroid. HP/Palm had smartphones and tablets that all ran WebOS. It might be true that consumers see tablets and smartphones as distinct categories, but from a devloper's point of view, I think they would appear as variations within the same category. That is, if you have developed an app for a smartphone, then making a tablet version of that app is a much simpler matter than porting to desktop/laptop, which might require an entirely different programming language.

But they are different in that they _don't_ run the same software -- freudling's point number 3 is just plain wrong.

The iPhone often runs similar, but less functional versions of iPad apps. And some iPad apps aren't available at all on the iPhone because the screen is so small that it isn't even worth trying to make the app work on it.

They are quite similar, but the screen size is such a factor that they divide into different categories by the apps they are able to run.

batting1000
Jul 22, 2012, 08:40 PM
But they are different in that they _don't_ run the same software -- freudling's point number 3 is just plain wrong.

The iPhone often runs similar, but less functional versions of iPad apps. And some iPad apps aren't available at all on the iPhone because the screen is so small that it isn't even worth trying to make the app work on it.

They are quite similar, but the screen size is such a factor that they divide into different categories by the apps they are able to run.

Not really. fruedling is right, iOS and apps are just scaled for the larger screen. You're right that apps might have a few extra features but that's because of the bigger screen. The same software is still being run on the iPad and iPhone/iPod. The same iOS overall is run on all three devices.

knucklehead
Jul 22, 2012, 08:46 PM
Not really. fruedling is right, iOS and apps are just scaled for the larger screen. You're right that apps might have a few extra features but that's because of the bigger screen. The same software is still being run on the iPad and iPhone/iPod. The same iOS overall is run on all three devices.

I have a bunch of 2x iPhone apps on my iPad -- They're lesser versions of iPad specific apps.

Not all iPad apps will even scale down to the iPhone screen. Bento 4 is an example.

Again, quite similar ... yet different.

batting1000
Jul 22, 2012, 08:48 PM
I have a bunch of 2x iPhone apps on my iPad -- They're lesser versions of iPad specific apps.

Not all iPad apps will even scale down to the iPhone screen. Bento 4 is an example.

Make sense if it's made specifically for the iPad.

knucklehead
Jul 22, 2012, 08:52 PM
Make sense if it's made specifically for the iPad.

Yeah - the larger screen presents possibilities that the smaller screen can't.
The iPhone is somewhat of a different device than the iPad for that reason.

Apples blurb from the iPad app screen: "An app made for iPad is an app like no other. That’s because apps for iPad are designed specifically to take advantage of all the technology built into iPad."

batting1000
Jul 22, 2012, 08:58 PM
Yeah - the larger screen presents possibilities that the smaller screen can't.
The iPhone is somewhat of a different device than the iPad for that reason.

Apples blurb from the iPad app screen: "An app made for iPad is an app like no other. That’s because apps for iPad are designed specifically to take advantage of all the technology built into iPad."

That's fine, but in general, it runs the same software (iOS) as was brought up early by freudlings. You starting discussing apps which wasn't the point that was made for the reasons you've explained.

knucklehead
Jul 22, 2012, 09:05 PM
That's fine, but in general, it runs the same software (iOS) as was brought up early by freudlings. You starting discussing apps which wasn't the point that was made for the reasons you've explained.

I'm pretty sure everyone was aware that it runs the same basic iOS even before "freudlings" ,as you say, brought it up. Freudling has seemed quite strange before about stating an obvious point, and then somehow considering it to be "his". You wouldn't happen to be quite closely related to him, would you?

batting1000
Jul 22, 2012, 09:21 PM
You wouldn't happen to be quite closely related to him, would you?


Nope. Not sure what would have you thinking that. Even if I was, it would be irrelevant.

NovaRev
Jul 22, 2012, 09:30 PM
This last bit is a useful as this:

adsf;liadjsf;lkasdfj

It's baseless. It is just because I say so! Is your approach.

Mobile-slate devices illustrates perfectly smarthpones, iPod Touches, and tablets. They are all:

1. Multi-touch devices.
2. All slates.
3. All using the same software scaled for the screens.
4. All using virtually identical hardware.

They are one and the same, just different sizes. Ergo, tweener.

It's interesting that you dismiss my argument at baseless despite your inability to pin down a coherent reason for phones and tablets to be considered "the same."

You're not doing anything here other than labeling a box with a vague term ("multi-touch devices," "mobile-slate devices") and indiscriminately tossing disparate devices into it without regard for their nuances. The disregard for these details is quite odd considering the painstaking attention to detail you've displayed in previous posts.

It's not hard to find incredibly broad similarities in different things and make a list of them. Anyone can do it. Look!

"Wheeled transportation devices" perfectly illustrates motorcycles, cars and even big rigs. They are all:

1. Multi-wheel.
2. All transportation.
3. All using the same technology scaled for the vehicle (internal combustion engine).
4. All using virtually identical fuel.

Do you see how absurd this is? You are highly specific about what makes a "tweener" but highly vague about what a tablet even is in the first place. You can't have it both ways. If you are incapable of pinning down exactly how phones and tablets are "one and the same" (beyond a list of hilariously obvious similarities that conveniently ignore equally obvious differences), you have no business defining a "tweener."

RelevantGifGuy
Jul 22, 2012, 09:36 PM
How to react when finding a fanboy with the strength of Freudling: Quick (http://***********/6d7za)

NovaRev
Jul 22, 2012, 10:26 PM
But I'd argue that smartphones and tablets are subcategories within a larger category. For instance, currently, both tablets and smartphones run the same OS. iPad and iPhone run iOS, and Android tablets and phones all run Aundroid. HP/Palm had smartphones and tablets that all ran WebOS. It might be true that consumers see tablets and smartphones as distinct categories, but from a devloper's point of view, I think they would appear as variations within the same category. That is, if you have developed an app for a smartphone, then making a tablet version of that app is a much simpler matter than porting to desktop/laptop, which might require an entirely different programming language.

I agree, you could certainly call them subcategories. Phones, tablets, laptops and desktops could all be called subcategories within the larger category of "computer." My point is that phones and tablets are clearly distinct enough from each other that to lump them both together as "one and the same" is to ignore a vast amount of detail.

Yes, there are similarities. They do share OS, UI, apps, etc. But on the other hand, you could say the same of an 11" MBA and a decked-out Mac Pro tower. They share their OS, UI, apps, etc. In fact, I'd say that an MBA and Mac Pro are probably closer to identical in these ways than an iPhone and an iPad are.

But the MBA and Mac Pro are still in different categories (or subcategories, if you prefer). One is an ultraportable laptop and the other is a desktop. Sure, they both belong to the category of "personal computer," but that's too vague and general. These are two highly distinct product categories with their own unique advantages and disadvantages, despite their obvious similarities. To deny or ignore these distinctions would be silly to me. The same is true with smartphones and tablets. There are lots of similarities, but there are also major, equally obvious differences that distinguish the two.

I don't think freudling actually has a compelling reason for his eagerness to ignore the distinctions between these two categories of devices, other than the fact that it allows him to ignore the large gaps in his own argument. I don't believe that this is something that he's actually thought about. His vagueness is telling.

Night Spring
Jul 22, 2012, 10:26 PM
But they are different in that they _don't_ run the same software -- freudling's point number 3 is just plain wrong.

The iPhone often runs similar, but less functional versions of iPad apps. And some iPad apps aren't available at all on the iPhone because the screen is so small that it isn't even worth trying to make the app work on it.

They are quite similar, but the screen size is such a factor that they divide into different categories by the apps they are able to run.

Well... I'm not a developer, so I can't say for certain, but my guess is that where different versions of apps exist for the iPad and iPhone, like Pages for iPad and Pages for iPhone, or Calendar for iPad and Calendar for iPhone, more than half of their code is the same. And in many cases, apps for iPhone and iPad are even more closely related to each other -- some iPad apps are almost the same as their iPhone versions except for cosmetic differences to adjust for the different screen sizes. So you just can't make a blanket statement that iPad and iPhone don't run the same software. In many cases, they do. And even in cases where the iPad and iPhone versions of an app are distinctly different from each other, they clearly belong in the same family, especially when compared to desktop/laptop apps.

So to make an analogy, iPad and iPhone apps are like wolfs and dogs, while desktop/laptop apps are cats ;). What you are doing is focusing on a difference between dogs and wolves -- that one is domesticated and one is not -- and insisting that everyone must think of that distinction as the most important.

A biologist is going to say that dogs and wolves are pretty much the same, and they can even interbreed. He's not going to place as much importance on the domestication factor. But to a farmer, a dog is a trusted helper, and a wolf is a dangerous predator. A farmer might get understandably upset if he thinks a biologist is treating dogs and wolves as variants of the same category. A biologist would be exasperated at the farmer's short-sightedness in insisting that dogs and wolves are different when they obviously share so many characteristics.

It's all a matter of perspective, is what I'm trying to say.



But the MBA and Mac Pro are still in different categories (or subcategories, if you prefer). One is an ultraportable laptop and the other is a desktop. Sure, they both belong to the category of "personal computer," but that's too vague and general. These are two highly distinct product categories with their own unique advantages and disadvantages, despite their obvious similarities

Well, but from a software development perspective, nobody makes a "MacBook Air" app, or a "Mac Pro" app. So in that sense, the distinctions among various types of desktop/laptop aren't as important as the distinctions among different-sized multi-touch devices, as you also mentioned. And it is because of this that I do feel suspicious of the "tweener" size tablet. Unlike freudling, I'm not going to say tweeners are destined to fail, but since the size difference between an iPhone and iPad does necessitate, for most apps, a separately designed UI for that particular size device, then there is a likelihood that the tweener tablet also needs its own UI, different from both the iPad and the iPhone. If Apple and the devs don't provide such an optimized UI for the tweener, then the user experience may not be as good as either the iPhone or the iPad. And I do think this is what freudling is claiming about the Nexus 7, that the user experience is inferior because the UI is not optimized for it, but he's going about it in an antagonistic and needlessly argumentative way.

Renzatic
Jul 22, 2012, 10:34 PM
LOL, well i dont know.

I dont get the Sexus name that he thinks it sounds funny. Kinda dumb if you ask me.

Heh. I think he wants to call it the Suxus, but...yeah...he ain't doing it right.

I'd still recommend giving it a good washing if you buy it from him, though. Just in case. :P

TheMacBookPro
Jul 22, 2012, 10:37 PM
Right, and how does me doing the same in addition to doing more make me a troll?

Your 'comparison' proved nothing other than mobile websites were designed for small screens, and that desktop websites are far more usable on the Nexus 7 than on the iPhone. Your piece of paper saying 'suck it' also shows that you are rather immature. Nothing surprising at all- the first two were expected, and the last tidbit of information shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who you've insulted (i.e., anyone who has an opinion differing from yours).

A troll is someone who posts with the intention of inciting an angry response. Calling others delusional and saying that they're lying without anything to back it up seems to fit that description well.

freudling
Jul 22, 2012, 10:51 PM
Nope. Not sure what would have you thinking that. Even if I was, it would be irrelevant.

Finally a sane person on here who's not caught up in the endless personal attacks and general BS from the same old clan.

NovaRev
Jul 22, 2012, 10:53 PM
A biologist is going to say that dogs and wolves are pretty much the same, and they can even interbreed. He's not going to place as much importance on the domestication factor. But to a farmer, a dog is a trusted helper, and a wolf is a dangerous predator. A farmer might get understandably upset if he thinks a biologist is treating dogs and wolves as variants of the same category. A biologist would be exasperated at the farmer's short-sightedness in insisting that dogs and wolves are different when they obviously share so many characteristics.

It's all a matter of perspective, is what I'm trying to say.

I understand the analogy you're making but I think it's a little bit flawed. A developer needs to be able to see and understand both perspectives in order to execute their job successfully.

You cannot develop apps in the vacuum of your own ideology, divorced from the realities of the different ways people use different devices.

freudling
Jul 22, 2012, 10:55 PM
Your 'comparison' proved nothing other than mobile websites were designed for small screens, and that desktop websites are far more usable on the Nexus 7 than on the iPhone. Your piece of paper saying 'suck it' also shows that you are rather immature. Nothing surprising at all- the first two were expected, and the last tidbit of information shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who you've insulted (i.e., anyone who has an opinion differing from yours).

A troll is someone who posts with the intention of inciting an angry response. Calling others delusional and saying that they're lying without anything to back it up seems to fit that description well.

No, they are not FAR MORE usable on a Nexus 7. That statement is baseless and has ZERO support. My posts clearly show in those pictures that the full blown Websites LOOK BETTER on the iPhone. Therefore, it is NOT the case that the Nexus is far more usable. Period.

And he did lie. He said he owns a Nexus and was challenged to post pictures. Hi ignored only that part of my posts: everything else he responds to... and he engages in personal attacks. His silence on posting pictures of his Nexus 7 speaks volumes of him. Of someone that argues on the Internet with people just for the sake of it. And that suck it has nothing to do with you. It's between me and another poster who constantly trolls and engages in personal attacks. He deserves what he gets.

ntrigue
Jul 22, 2012, 10:55 PM
I really just need a Kindle/Instapaper device larger than iPhone. Will Nexus 7 beat iPad?

batting1000
Jul 22, 2012, 10:58 PM
Finally a sane person on here who's not caught up in the endless personal attacks and general BS from the same old clan.

Why thank you, sir. :cool:

freudling
Jul 22, 2012, 11:03 PM
It's interesting that you dismiss my argument at baseless despite your inability to pin down a coherent reason for phones and tablets to be considered "the same."

You're not doing anything here other than labeling a box with a vague term ("multi-touch devices," "mobile-slate devices") and indiscriminately tossing disparate devices into it without regard for their nuances. The disregard for these details is quite odd considering the painstaking attention to detail you've displayed in previous posts.

It's not hard to find incredibly broad similarities in different things and make a list of them. Anyone can do it. Look!

"Wheeled transportation devices" perfectly illustrates motorcycles, cars and even big rigs. They are all:

1. Multi-wheel.
2. All transportation.
3. All using the same technology scaled for the vehicle (internal combustion engine).
4. All using virtually identical fuel.

Do you see how absurd this is? You are highly specific about what makes a "tweener" but highly vague about what a tablet even is in the first place. You can't have it both ways. If you are incapable of pinning down exactly how phones and tablets are "one and the same" (beyond a list of hilariously obvious similarities that conveniently ignore equally obvious differences), you have no business defining a "tweener."

You are wrong, wrong, wrong.

iPods, iPhones, and iPads are part of the same category: they are mobile-slate devices that are multi-touch in their input and run an operating system called iOS.

Macs and laptops by Apple are in a separate category but different than above: they are point and click devices that run OS X.

All are part of a larger category called "computers". The similarities between the devices in each category is striking. Same operating system. Virtually identical hardware. Identical input methods. But the differences between the two categories is equally telling: mobile-slate devices run a different operating system than Apple's Macs and laptops, as well as different hardware.

There is no argument. Move along. But keep posting and getting blue in the face.

Night Spring
Jul 22, 2012, 11:06 PM
And that suck it has nothing to do with you. It's between me and another poster who constantly trolls and engages in personal attacks. He deserves what he gets.

If that "suck it" has nothing to do with us, why do we all have to see it every time you post that link? Please find a way to keep it between yourself and the other poster and leave the rest of us out of it. I'm sure I won't be the only one to appreciate such courtesy.


I understand the analogy you're making but I think it's a little bit flawed. A developer needs to be able to see and understand both perspectives in order to execute their job successfully.

You cannot develop apps in the vacuum of your own ideology, divorced from the realities of the different ways people use different devices.

Sure, a developer needs to take note of differences between different sized multi-touch devices, and a biologist could probably tell you many points of distinction between wolves and dogs that the general public doesn't know. But don't try to tell a biologist that wolves and dogs are fundamentally different, because he would never agree with you. And that's what you came off as doing before -- you (or perhaps it was another poster arguing along similar lines -- I'm starting to lose track of who said what, sorry) -- anyway, somebody was insisting that smartphones and tablets are VERY different from each other, in a way that could be interpreted as they don't belong in the same category. But they obviously do share many features, both hardware and software, so in that sense, they do belong in the same category.

TheMacBookPro
Jul 22, 2012, 11:22 PM
No, they are not FAR MORE usable on a Nexus 7. That statement is baseless and has ZERO support. My posts clearly show in those pictures that the full blown Websites LOOK BETTER on the iPhone. Therefore, it is NOT the case that the Nexus is far more usable. Period.

Clearly show? No, that's completely subjective. My opinion is that the tiny text on the iPhone, while clear, is far too small to be usable. Obviously, your opinion is different, but that doesn't make your opinion a fact. Capitalization of random words is unnecessary, that's what bolding and italics are for.

And he did lie. He said he owns a Nexus and was challenged to post pictures. Hi ignored only that part of my posts: everything else he responds to... and he engages in personal attacks. His silence on posting pictures of his Nexus 7 speaks volumes of him. Of someone that argues on the Internet with people just for the sake of it. And that suck it has nothing to do with you. It's between me and another poster who constantly trolls and engages in personal attacks. He deserves what he gets.

It has something to do with me if I read it. If it's just between you and another poster then use the Private Messaging feature.

freudling
Jul 22, 2012, 11:30 PM
If that "suck it" has nothing to do with us, why do we all have to see it every time you post that link? Please find a way to keep it between yourself and the other poster and leave the rest of us out of it. I'm sure I won't be the only one to appreciate such courtesy.

There are 10 photos in there. Ignore the text and look at the screens. You're welcome for being one of the only objective posters on here who takes the time to post this stuff and do real usability testing, not just a person waving his arms who doesn't own the device.

Sure, a developer needs to take note of differences between different sized multi-touch devices, and a biologist could probably tell you many points of distinction between wolves and dogs that the general public doesn't know. But don't try to tell a biologist that wolves and dogs are fundamentally different, because he would never agree with you. And that's what you came off as doing before -- you (or perhaps it was another poster arguing along similar lines -- I'm starting to lose track of who said what, sorry) -- anyway, somebody was insisting that smartphones and tablets are VERY different from each other, in a way that could be interpreted as they don't belong in the same category. But they obviously do share many features, both hardware and software, so in that sense, they do belong in the same category.

Yes, they belong in the same category. The only effective difference between them is that the smartphone is much smaller but uses the exact same technology and software. Some people just call things like the iPad a giant iPod Touch... or you could call it a giant iPhone... but it would be silly to call it a phone because you wouldn't want to use it as a phone because it's too big. This is where the smaller size of a smartphone comes in. But other than a different way of using it because it's small, they're effectively the exact same devices.

NovaRev
Jul 22, 2012, 11:35 PM
You are wrong, wrong, wrong.

iPods, iPhones, and iPads are part of the same category: they are mobile-slate devices that are multi-touch in their input and run an operating system called iOS.

Macs and laptops by Apple are in a separate category but different than above: they are point and click devices that run OS X.

All are part of a larger category called "computers". The similarities between the devices in each category is striking. Same operating system. Virtually identical hardware. Identical input methods. But the differences between the two categories is equally telling: mobile-slate devices run a different operating system than Apple's Macs and laptops, as well as different hardware.

There is no argument. Move along. But keep posting and getting blue in the face.

I agree that there is no argument, because you've proven incapable of presenting one. You commit the logical fallacy of generalization. By:

1) Repeatedly pointing out the most bluntly obvious similarities (a task even a child could accomplish)
2) Blithely ignoring equally obvious differences
3) Concluding that this flawed approach is logically sound
4) Declaring yourself "right" and everyone else "wrong"

You demonstrate that you do not actually have a legitimate argument. I do not believe for a second that you are a software developer, or even work with one.

Enjoy your iPad.

freudling
Jul 22, 2012, 11:45 PM
Clearly show? No, that's completely subjective. My opinion is that the tiny text on the iPhone, while clear, is far too small to be usable. Obviously, your opinion is different, but that doesn't make your opinion a fact. Capitalization of random words is unnecessary, that's what bolding and italics are for.



It has something to do with me if I read it. If it's just between you and another poster then use the Private Messaging feature.

It is an objective FACT that the full blown Websites look better on the iPhone. The text is more clear and in some cases, text is rendered even BIGGER on the iPhone. The photos, for instance, of the Macrumors site are irrefutable.

----------

I agree that there is no argument, because you've proven incapable of presenting one. You commit the logical fallacy of generalization. By:

1) Repeatedly pointing out the most bluntly obvious similarities (a task even a child could accomplish)
2) Blithely ignoring equally obvious differences
3) Concluding that this flawed approach is logically sound
4) Declaring yourself "right" and everyone else "wrong"

You demonstrate that you do not actually have a legitimate argument. I do not believe for a second that you are a software developer, or even work with one.

Enjoy your iPad.

You have not said anything, nothing in this post. Zero.

What are the differences between an iPad and an iPhone other than size?

"Uh.... uh... but.... uh..."

Night Spring
Jul 22, 2012, 11:47 PM
There are 10 photos in there. Ignore the text and look at the screens.

I have been ignoring the text, but it'd be nice if I didn't have to. Also, having followed the threads where you were having arguments with other posters, I had a pretty good sense that message was aimed at one or two specific people, but then you posted that link in so many other threads, I'm sure a lot of people saw that text and had no idea why they were being told to suck it, or that the message wasn't intended for them.



You're welcome for being one of the only objective posters on here who takes the time to post this stuff and do real usability testing, not just a person waving his arms who doesn't own the device.

I don't actually own any 7 inch tablet, so I haven't done any usability testing, nor did I ever say I did. I just happen to share your skepticism about the usability of tweener tablets, but I'm reserving judgement until I actually give one a try. On the other hand, I'm not interested enough to go out and buy a tweener just to give it a try, especially since I personally have no use fot that size. I do appreciate that many people here think they want one -- and I'm very interested in hearing from the people who do get one, how well a tweener meets or don't meet their expectations.

freudling
Jul 22, 2012, 11:50 PM
I have been ignoring the text, but it'd be nice if I didn't have to. Also, having followed the threads where you were having arguments with other posters, I had a pretty good sense that message was aimed at one or two specific people, but then you posted that link in so many other threads, I'm sure a lot of people saw that text and had no idea why they were being told to suck it, or that the message wasn't intended for them.




I don't actually own any 7 inch tablet, so I haven't done any usability testing, nor did I ever say I did. I just happen to share your skepticism about the usability of tweener tablets, but I'm reserving judgement until I actually give one a try. On the other hand, I'm not interested enough to go out and buy a tweener just to give it a try, especially since I personally have no use fot that size. I do appreciate that many people here think they want one -- and I'm very interested in hearing from the people who do get one, how well a tweener meets or don't meet their expectations.

Obviously I can't recommend you buy one, but you should test it yourself and decide.

Night Spring
Jul 23, 2012, 12:09 AM
It is an objective FACT that the full blown Websites look better on the iPhone.*The text is more clear and in some cases, text is rendered even BIGGER on the iPhone. The photos, for instance, of the Macrumors site are irrefutable.

"better" can't be a fact -- unless you are comparing test scores or something. Otherwise, it's a subjective judgement based on many factors, most of which are personal preferences.

"text is more clear" -- to your eyes. Other people might see differently, either because they have physically different eyes, or they might have different preferences. I mean, look at all the discussion over retina display. It's a fact that iPad 3 has double the resolution of the iPad 2. But some say the difference is like day and night, and some say they see no difference at all.

Obviously I can't recommend you buy one, but you should test it yourself and decide.

I might if Apple does come out with a tweener. Not really interested enough in that size to go through the hassle of fiddling with another OS in order to test it out. And then, there's the hassle of buying then returning the thing. I mean, I'm not overly frugal, but I also don't like buying and keeping products I don't use. There's an Apple store right by my office, so popping in and out to buy/return things to Apple is easy. ;)

TheMacBookPro
Jul 23, 2012, 12:17 AM
It is an objective FACT that the full blown Websites look better on the iPhone. The text is more clear and in some cases, text is rendered even BIGGER on the iPhone. The photos, for instance, of the Macrumors site are irrefutable.

Are you getting a usability number generated by a calculation? Nope, it's just your opinion. My opinion differs from your opinion. Neither of our opinions are a fact.

You can repeat your opinion as much as you like, it's not going to make it a fact.

freudling
Jul 23, 2012, 12:30 AM
"better" can't be a fact -- unless you are comparing test scores or something. Otherwise, it's a subjective judgement based on many factors, most of which are personal preferences.

"text is more clear" -- to your eyes. Other people might see differently, either because they have physically different eyes, or they might have different preferences. I mean, look at all the discussion over retina display. It's a fact that iPad 3 has double the resolution of the iPad 2. But some say the difference is like day and night, and some say they see no difference at all.



I might if Apple does come out with a tweener. Not really interested enough in that size to go through the hassle of fiddling with another OS in order to test it out. And then, there's the hassle of buying then returning the thing. I mean, I'm not overly frugal, but I also don't like buying and keeping products I don't use. There's an Apple store right by my office, so popping in and out to buy/return things to Apple is easy. ;)

It is a fact. The benchmark of vision is 20/20. Apple based it's material science and development of the Retina display on this benchmark. Retina screens are by a fact sharper and better for the general population than those that have lower ppi such that the eye can see individual pixels.

None of this is debatable.

TheMacBookPro
Jul 23, 2012, 12:32 AM
It is a fact. The benchmark of vision is 20/20. Apple based it's material science and development of the Retina display on this benchmark. Retina screens are by a fact sharper and better for the general population than those that have lower ppi such that the eye can see individual pixels.

None of this is debatable.

That's perfect, because that's what my vision is! Yet, oddly enough, my Nexus 7 is not grainy or pixelated or noticeably inferior to the Retina Displays I have. How very strange.

Renzatic
Jul 23, 2012, 12:32 AM
It is a fact. The benchmark of vision is 20/20. Apple based it's material science and development of the Retina display on this benchmark. Retina screens are by a fact sharper and better for the general population than those that have lower ppi such that the eye can see individual pixels.

None of this is debatable.

Nope. But the subjectiveness of what's what's grainy and horrible in comparison certainly is. Retina might be better, but the Nexus 7 isn't exactly "bad" when put next to it.

freudling
Jul 23, 2012, 12:34 AM
Are you getting a usability number generated by a calculation? Nope, it's just your opinion. My opinion differs from your opinion. Neither of our opinions are a fact.

You can repeat your opinion as much as you like, it's not going to make it a fact.

It is all a fact.

1. The Retina screen is SHARPER and CRISPER than the Nexus. This is a fact because the average human eye cannot discern individual pixels on a Retina like they can on the Sexus. The Sexus needs close to 300 ppi to qualify as a Retina screen.
2. Webpages have text rendered on the iPhone in essentially the same size as the Sexus. You gain virtually nothing but having a larger, heavier, bulkier device that doesn't allow 2 handed holding.

All of this is a fact.

TheMacBookPro
Jul 23, 2012, 12:38 AM
It is all a fact.

1. The Retina screen is SHARPER and CRISPER than the Nexus. This is a fact because the average human eye cannot discern individual pixels on a Retina like they can on the Sexus. The Sexus needs close to 300 ppi to qualify as a Retina screen.
2. Webpages have text rendered on the iPhone in essentially the same size as the Sexus. You gain virtually nothing but having a larger, heavier, bulkier device that doesn't allow 2 handed holding.

All of this is a fact.

Sexus? Sounds like you've gotten yourself a Chinese knockoff there.

Now, if your keyboard has the S and the N keys mixed up, that would explain why your post looks like it was formed by a failed comedian.

1. I cannot see individual pixels on my Nexus 7's display. I'd like to know what your visual acuity is, because it's evidently better than mine (20/20).

2. Yes, pages get rendered at the same size. Unfortunately, due to the smaller size of the iPhone's display, I am unable to read the text comfortably, so I have to zoom in, whereas on the Nexus 7 I can read it comfortably at a glance.

Now that's my opinion, just like yours. Repeat it as many times as you like, you're not getting a dirt bike for Christmas. It didn't work when we were kids and it doesn't work that way in the real world either.

freudling
Jul 23, 2012, 12:41 AM
That's perfect, because that's what my vision is! Yet, oddly enough, my Nexus 7 is not grainy or pixelated or noticeably inferior to the Retina Displays I have. How very strange.

Demonstrate it. Post video next to an iPad 3 showing the exact same sites.

----------

Sexus? Sounds like you've gotten yourself a Chinese knockoff there.

Now, if your keyboard has the S and the N keys mixed up, that would explain why your post looks like it was formed by a failed comedian.

1. I cannot see individual pixels on my Nexus 7's display. I'd like to know what your visual acuity is, because it's evidently better than mine (20/20).

2. Yes, pages get rendered at the same size. Unfortunately, due to the smaller size of the iPhone's display, I am unable to read the text comfortably, so I have to zoom in, whereas on the Nexus 7 I can read it comfortably at a glance.

Now that's my opinion, just like yours. Repeat it as many times as you like, you're not getting a dirt bike for Christmas. It didn't work when we were kids and it doesn't work that way in the real world either.

Demonstrate everything you have said: post videos of all of it. But you won't because they're false statements. My photos demonstrate why your comments are false. Not all Websites are rendered large on the iPhone, but no matter what the 326 ppi blow away the Nexus 7 screen.

http://s675.photobucket.com/albums/vv116/freudling/Suck%20It/

Renzatic
Jul 23, 2012, 12:46 AM
Demonstrate it. Post video next to an iPad 3 showing the exact same sites.

You do realize that taking pictures won't prove crap, right? Unless you're using a telephoto lens on an expensive high end DSLR zoomed in to near macro photography levels, an iPad 3 would look almost exactly like an iPad 2 from a single photo.

And a video? Hell, that's even worse. You wouldn't be able to tell any difference between the two after Youtube compresses the hell out of it.

TheMacBookPro
Jul 23, 2012, 12:48 AM
Demonstrate it. Post video next to an iPad 3 showing the exact same sites.

Certainly, master. What would you like your butler to show you?

Demonstrate everything you have said: post videos of all of it. But you won't because they're false statements. My photos demonstrate why your comments are false. Not all Websites are rendered large on the iPhone, but no matter what the 326 ppi blow away the Nexus 7 screen.

Once again with your ridiculous assumptions. I've already proven you to be a fool twice, it's safe to say that you'd be wrong again here.

What do you want a video for? Hell, what would a picture prove anyways? That I have a good camera?

I don't know if you realize it but your silly little album doesn't show the iPhone's screen being any clearer than the Nexus 7's. And before you say it's because I have a bad screen, I'm viewing the images on my Retina Display MacBook. Would Master like an image of that too?

freudling
Jul 23, 2012, 01:10 AM
Certainly, master. What would you like your butler to show you?



Once again with your ridiculous assumptions. I've already proven you to be a fool twice, it's safe to say that you'd be wrong again here.

What do you want a video for? Hell, what would a picture prove anyways? That I have a good camera?

I don't know if you realize it but your silly little album doesn't show the iPhone's screen being any clearer than the Nexus 7's. And before you say it's because I have a bad screen, I'm viewing the images on my Retina Display MacBook. Would Master like an image of that too?

I've already proven you to be a fool over and over. Anyone who doesn't believe a Retina display is sharper than pretty much anything out there and that people can recognize the difference is incredulous.

----------

The Retina display is BETTER than the screen on the Nexus because the average person cannot discern the individual pixels on the iPad screen. The ppi on the Sexus is not enough to qualify as a Retina therefore the average person CAN discern individual pixels. Period. End of story.

TheMacBookPro
Jul 23, 2012, 01:16 AM
I've already proven you to be a fool over and over. Anyone who doesn't believe a Retina display is sharper than pretty much anything out there and that people can recognize the difference is incredulous.

----------

The Retina display is BETTER than the screen on the Nexus because the average person cannot discern the individual pixels on the iPad screen. The ppi on the Sexus is not enough to qualify as a Retina therefore the average person CAN discern individual pixels. Period. End of story.

No, you haven't proven me to be anything. If anything, I've proven you to be fool by showing how you're completely wrong about me not actually owning a Nexus 7, amongst other things you were wrong about.

You should not use the word incredulous in that context- you should just say incredible. If you want to prove that you're good with words (even though you're evidently not), just say that you find it incredulous. The way you put it is akin to saying 'the people that say they can't recognize the difference is disbelieving'. Makes no sense, does it?

The average person evidently cannot discern individual pixels, as proven by myself and the reviewers. If it really was an issue, don't you think one of the reviews would have said it was a problem by now? Your issue is a one-off. Period. End of story.

freudling
Jul 23, 2012, 01:18 AM
No, you haven't proven me to be anything. If anything, I've proven you to be fool by showing how you're completely wrong about me not actually owning a Nexus 7, amongst other things you were wrong about.

You should not use the word incredulous in that context- you should just say incredible. If you want to prove that you're good with words (even though you're evidently not), just say that you find it incredulous. The way you put it is akin to saying 'the people that say they can't recognize the difference is disbelieving'. Makes no sense, does it?

The average person evidently cannot discern individual pixels, as proven by myself and the reviewers. If it really was an issue, don't you think one of the reviews would have said it was a problem by now? Your issue is a one-off. Period. End of story.

You have been proven wrong over and over, particularly by being schooled on UI design and all the mistakes and errors in your thinking.

The Retina display is BETTER than the screen on the Nexus because the average person cannot discern the individual pixels on the iPad screen. The ppi on the Sexus is not enough to qualify as a Retina therefore the average person CAN discern individual pixels. Period. End of story.

TheMacBookPro
Jul 23, 2012, 01:20 AM
You have been proven wrong over and over, particularly by being schooled on UI design and all the mistakes and errors in your thinking.

Saying that you did does not mean you actually did. Please show me where you've proven me to be wrong, and I'll gladly show you where I proved you to be wrong.

The Retina display is BETTER than the screen on the Nexus because the average person cannot discern the individual pixels on the iPad screen. The ppi on the Sexus is not enough to qualify as a Retina therefore the average person CAN discern individual pixels. Period. End of story.

Good job with the bolding. Learning Forums 101 now, are we? Next time, just bold the pertinent information, not the whole part. That renders the bolding irrelevant.

In my experience and other peoples' experience they cannot discern the individual pixels. It looks like you're reading into Apple's PR about the Retina Display too much.

freudling
Jul 23, 2012, 01:24 AM
Saying that you did does not mean you actually did. Please show me where you've proven me to be wrong, and I'll gladly show you where I proved you to be wrong.



Good job with the bolding. Learning Forums 101 now, are we? Next time, just bold the pertinent information, not the whole part. That renders the bolding irrelevant.

In my experience and other peoples' experience they cannot discern the individual pixels. It looks like you're reading into Apple's PR about the Retina Display too much.

The Retina display is BETTER than the screen on the Nexus because the average person cannot discern the individual pixels on the iPad screen. The ppi on the Sexus is not enough to qualify as a Retina therefore the average person CAN discern individual pixels. Period. End of story.

TheMacBookPro
Jul 23, 2012, 01:29 AM
The Retina display is BETTER than the screen on the Nexus because the average person cannot discern the individual pixels on the iPad screen. The ppi on the Sexus is not enough to qualify as a Retina therefore the average person CAN discern individual pixels. Period. End of story.

Ah yes, the good ol 'if I repeat it enough times I'll be correct!' logic. It doesn't work, bub.

freudling
Jul 23, 2012, 01:32 AM
Ah yes, the good ol 'if I repeat it enough times I'll be correct!' logic. It doesn't work, bub.

Sure bub. This is a fact and is indisputable:

The Retina display is BETTER than the screen on the Nexus because the average person cannot discern the individual pixels on the iPad screen. The ppi on the Sexus is not enough to qualify as a Retina therefore the average person CAN discern individual pixels. Period. End of story.

tech4all
Jul 23, 2012, 01:44 AM
And Google hasn't given you that much to talk about on Android either. Both are mature operating systems now and are going to update incrementally. What is really groundbreaking about Jelly Bean other than it finally behaves like a proper mobile OS that doesn't hang up when you swipe the screen?

And what is so groundbreaking about iOS6?

I'm not anti iOS, but let's face it things like Google Now really make Siri look slow and behind the times.

You know what? Don't answer that. I'll just comb the MacRumors threads on my own and find all of the new features. That's all this forum really talks about at the moment.

Wow you're clever! Who would have thought they discuss things like this on a Mac/technology forum. :eek:



Sure bub. This is a fact and is indisputable:

The Retina display is BETTER than the screen on the Nexus because the average person cannot discern the individual pixels on the iPad screen. The ppi on the Sexus is not enough to qualify as a Retina therefore the average person CAN discern individual pixels. Period. End of story.

Arguing over a trivial difference in PPI? Wow.

Yes the iPad's screen is technically better, but in the real world, it's trivial.

freudling
Jul 23, 2012, 01:46 AM
And what is so groundbreaking about iOS6?

I'm not anti iOS, but let's face it things like Google Now really make Siri look slow and behind the times.



Wow you're clever! Who would have thought they discuss things like this on a Mac/technology forum. :eek:

Haven't tried Google Now. Is it any good?

TheMacBookPro
Jul 23, 2012, 02:25 AM
Sure bub. This is a fact and is indisputable:

The Retina display is BETTER than the screen on the Nexus because the average person cannot discern the individual pixels on the iPad screen. The ppi on the Sexus is not enough to qualify as a Retina therefore the average person CAN discern individual pixels. Period. End of story.

Yes, judging by the numbers, it is better. I have never once doubted that. Is the improvement noticeable to the naked eye? To mine, it is not.

Haven't tried Google Now. Is it any good?

Why don't you try it? You were very insistent about you being the owner of one (albeit an unhappy owner), so you really ought to try it yourself.

freudling
Jul 23, 2012, 02:47 AM
Yes, judging by the numbers, it is better. I have never once doubted that. Is the improvement noticeable to the naked eye? To mine, it is not.

Why don't you try it? You were very insistent about you being the owner of one (albeit an unhappy owner), so you really ought to try it yourself.

The Retina display is BETTER than the screen on the Nexus because the average person cannot discern the individual pixels on the iPad screen. The ppi on the Sexus is not enough to qualify as a Retina therefore the average person CAN discern individual pixels. Period. End of story.

As for Google Now, it's ok. On my 20 minute test, it's faster than Siri but much more limited.

Renzatic
Jul 23, 2012, 02:55 AM
As for Google Now, it's ok. On my 20 minute test, it's faster than Siri but much more limited.

How so? Every video I've seen of the two compared side by side shows that Now is capable of everything Siri is.

freudling
Jul 23, 2012, 03:06 AM
How so? Every video I've seen of the two compared side by side shows that Now is capable of everything Siri is.

"What movies are playing near by?" Then it gave me BS Web results.

I should mention I'm using latest iOS 6 and I'm getting all of the added features to Siri as shown in the WWDC 2012 video. Siri's movie listing with nice interface, trailer, and aggregated listing built right in is great.

Siri is also much more scalable and powerful in my opinion. Like tapping into other Apps: opening them, setting timers, her sense of humour, accuracy, etc.

batting1000
Jul 23, 2012, 08:37 AM
How so? Every video I've seen of the two compared side by side shows that Now is capable of everything Siri is.

All Google Now does is perform a web search. Type a question into Google Now on your computer or tablet and you'll get the same answer above all the web results.

As you can see below, I typed in "how old is dustin pedroia" and Google loaded with his age and birthday at the top. It's the same exact thing that Google Now will show, the only difference being Now puts it in a card format. You even get more info on the right side. Of course you can't go to Google.com and type in "remind me to feed the dog" on your computer. I'm only talking about information based queries, not productivity things Now does.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1552/picturejx.jpg

wallpaper01
Jul 23, 2012, 10:06 AM
I owned an iPhone 4 and iPad then iPad 3.

The reason I purchased a Nexus was for my girlfriend for her birthday.

I loved it so much my iPad is now on eBay and ive got myself one!

Reasons for getting it was the Google features, I love the widgets, like another post said, Ive never used android but im really impressed! I now have a windows phone 7 and the live tiles/widgets were the reasons im leaving apple products.

Thanks Apple for 4 good years on iPhone!

knucklehead
Jul 23, 2012, 10:18 AM
Well... I'm not a developer, so I can't say for certain, but my guess is that where different versions of apps exist for the iPad and iPhone, like Pages for iPad and Pages for iPhone, or Calendar for iPad and Calendar for iPhone, more than half of their code is the same. And in many cases, apps for iPhone and iPad are even more closely related to each other -- some iPad apps are almost the same as their iPhone versions except for cosmetic differences to adjust for the different screen sizes. So you just can't make a blanket statement that iPad and iPhone don't run the same software. In many cases, they do. And even in cases where the iPad and iPhone versions of an app are distinctly different from each other, they clearly belong in the same family, especially when compared to desktop/laptop apps.

I'm not making a blanket statement, simply countering freudling's blanket statement that they dorun the same software ... which they clearly don't. Similar versions of the same software at best (disregarding the same versions that fail to take advantage of the iPad's larger display). The iPhone offers lesser ability to run useful apps due to it's smaller screen -- it is in effect, a different tool.

So to make an analogy, iPad and iPhone apps are like wolfs and dogs, while desktop/laptop apps are cats ;). What you are doing is focusing on a difference between dogs and wolves -- that one is domesticated and one is not -- and insisting that everyone must think of that distinction as the most important.

A biologist is going to say that dogs and wolves are pretty much the same, and they can even interbreed. He's not going to place as much importance on the domestication factor. But to a farmer, a dog is a trusted helper, and a wolf is a dangerous predator. A farmer might get understandably upset if he thinks a biologist is treating dogs and wolves as variants of the same category. A biologist would be exasperated at the farmer's short-sightedness in insisting that dogs and wolves are different when they obviously share so many characteristics.

It's all a matter of perspective, is what I'm trying to say.

All sorts of analogies could be made. Here's mine:

Say there's a person attempting to loosen a bolt with a set of wrenches. They pick up a wrench, and find it's the wrong size. Now what then would be a more useful way to categorize the device in hand:

A. It's a wrench, just like the others.

B. It's the wrong tool for the job.

I would say that spending time arguing over A. would be time wasted.

Like you say, it's a matter of perspective.





Well, but from a software development perspective, nobody makes a "MacBook Air" app, or a "Mac Pro" app. So in that sense, the distinctions among various types of desktop/laptop aren't as important as the distinctions among different-sized multi-touch devices, as you also mentioned. And it is because of this that I do feel suspicious of the "tweener" size tablet. Unlike freudling, I'm not going to say tweeners are destined to fail, but since the size difference between an iPhone and iPad does necessitate, for most apps, a separately designed UI for that particular size device, then there is a likelihood that the tweener tablet also needs its own UI, different from both the iPad and the iPhone. If Apple and the devs don't provide such an optimized UI for the tweener, then the user experience may not be as good as either the iPhone or the iPad. And I do think this is what freudling is claiming about the Nexus 7, that the user experience is inferior because the UI is not optimized for it, but he's going about it in an antagonistic and needlessly argumentative way.

You might find it interesting to pick up an iPad Nano.
It's also a touch display device that runs versions of Apple's Music, Podcast, Photo and Settings apps.
It's a radically smaller device than the iPad and iPhone, and yet the touch targets are still the same size as what's mentioned in Apple's Human Interface Guidelines.
freudling's argument has been that this size device would require a radically different UI -- It does not.


"Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you"

wallpaper01
Jul 23, 2012, 10:29 AM
"What movies are playing near by?" Then it gave me BS Web results.

I should mention I'm using latest iOS 6 and I'm getting all of the added features to Siri as shown in the WWDC 2012 video. Siri's movie listing with nice interface, trailer, and aggregated listing built right in is great.

Siri is also much more scalable and powerful in my opinion. Like tapping into other Apps: opening them, setting timers, her sense of humour, accuracy, etc.

You need to calm down mate, it's 7in and far more usable than a phone when browsing on a website. This is due to the fact your fingers do not scale down like your screen size. So unless you compare a small baby using an iPhone to an adult using the nexus, its not going to be the same at all you muppet. Retina will make the screen look sharp but again, its on a smaller screen so you need to zoom in.

Another example is I have a 24in monitor at work, if this was a 7in retina monitor, yeah I could see everything still and its super clear but its not practical, that's what its all about! It's just not as practical to browse the web on a phone, even if it is clear.

I use my phone to call and check quick things using apps. The Nexus is better for sitting on the sofa and web browsing comfortably for longer periods.

I found the 7in the sweet spot after downgrading from my iPad 3, iPad can sometimes be heavy to hold and move about, which irritated me sometimes.

An Apple 7in tablet with retina would obviously be the ideal, but I really think Apple need to update their OS to add widgets or live tile style functionality. I loved iOS until I upgraded to Windows Phone 7 and then started to realise the short falls.

Hope this doesn't sound too biased or anti Apple but its my honest experience. I loved my iPhone just think its starting to look a bit dated.

Night Spring
Jul 23, 2012, 10:57 AM
You might find it interesting to pick up an iPad Nano.
It's also a touch display device that runs versions of Apple's Music, Podcast, Photo and Settings apps.
It's a radically smaller device than the iPad and iPhone, and yet the touch targets are still the same size as what's mentioned in Apple's Human Interface Guidelines.
freudling's argument has been that this size device would require a radically different UI -- It does not.

I do have an iPod nano, and I think it rather proves the argument that different-size screens require different UI. For instance, the nano has a 2x2 icon grid, the iPhone is 4x5 including the dock, the iPad has a 4x5 grid for the home screen and you can put 6 icons in the dock. Nike's pedometer app on the Nano is resized to fit the square Nano screen, they don't just use the iPhone UI that was designed for the phone's larger rectangular screen.

So that's the kind of thing I was thinking of when I said each screen size needs its own UI. Of course all multi-touch devices will share features in common, but adjustments are needed to optimize for each size. The question is, can a tweener make do with just a scaled down or scaled up version of iPad/iPhone UI, or does it need layout adjustments of its own?

knucklehead
Jul 23, 2012, 11:34 AM
I do have an iPod nano, and I think it rather proves the argument that different-size screens require different UI. For instance, the nano has a 2x2 icon grid, the iPhone is 4x5 including the dock, the iPad has a 4x5 grid for the home screen and you can put 6 icons in the dock. Nike's pedometer app on the Nano is resized to fit the square Nano screen, they don't just use the iPhone UI that was designed for the phone's larger rectangular screen.

So that's the kind of thing I was thinking of when I said each screen size needs its own UI. Of course all multi-touch devices will share features in common, but adjustments are needed to optimize for each size. The question is, can a tweener make do with just a scaled down or scaled up version of iPad/iPhone UI, or does it need layout adjustments of its own?

My point there was that the touch target size within the apps remains the same, despite the radical change in screen size -- something that freudling claimed would not be the case.

As for the home screen - iPad scaled down to 7.85 size presents nothing that falls outside of Apple's guidelines that I can see. If someone can point something out, please do.

One thing you can certainly say about the iPad's current home screen, is that there is a huge amount of wasted space between the icons - mini scaled would not move them uncomfortably close, that's for sure.

Night Spring
Jul 23, 2012, 11:51 AM
My point there was that the touch target size within the apps remains the same, despite the radical change in screen size -- something that freudling claimed would not be the case.

Did he? I can't remember much talk of target sizes. (Or to be more accurate, I don't remember exactly who said what -- it's all turning into a giant blur :p) But in order for touch target sizes to remain the same, wouldn't the layout have to change? For instance, the forward/backward, bookmark and sharing icons at the top of Safari in iPad. If you just shrink the whole iPad UI, all the icons will get smaller and squished closer together. I know that in the case of Safari, the result might still be within Apple's interface guidelines, but will that be the case with all UI elements in all apps? And just because something is within Apple's guidelines, doesn't guarantee that it will be easy to use. Will I find that I can use a scaled down Safari UI on an iPad mini as easily as the full-sized one on the current iPad, or will I wish the mini had its own layout? I won't know until I actually try one.

As for the home screen grid, okay, that will be no problem if the layout stays the same on the iPad mini. Maybe Apple did plan ahead and always planned to come out with a mini tablet, even while Steve was bashing other company's 7-inchers! ;)

DakotaGuy
Jul 23, 2012, 03:29 PM
Well it's doing pretty well considering the 16 GB model is sold out everywhere.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/23/tech/gaming-gadgets/google-orders-16g-nexus/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

taeclee99
Jul 25, 2012, 12:30 PM
You need to calm down mate, it's 7in and far more usable than a phone when browsing on a website. This is due to the fact your fingers do not scale down like your screen size. So unless you compare a small baby using an iPhone to an adult using the nexus, its not going to be the same at all you muppet. Retina will make the screen look sharp but again, its on a smaller screen so you need to zoom in.

Another example is I have a 24in monitor at work, if this was a 7in retina monitor, yeah I could see everything still and its super clear but its not practical, that's what its all about! It's just not as practical to browse the web on a phone, even if it is clear.

I use my phone to call and check quick things using apps. The Nexus is better for sitting on the sofa and web browsing comfortably for longer periods.

I found the 7in the sweet spot after downgrading from my iPad 3, iPad can sometimes be heavy to hold and move about, which irritated me sometimes.

An Apple 7in tablet with retina would obviously be the ideal, but I really think Apple need to update their OS to add widgets or live tile style functionality. I loved iOS until I upgraded to Windows Phone 7 and then started to realise the short falls.

Hope this doesn't sound too biased or anti Apple but its my honest experience. I loved my iPhone just think its starting to look a bit dated.

I don't get what about IOS is dated compared to jelly bean?
I have both devices and both operating systems are very similar in terms of features. If anything thing Jellybean more closely resembles IOS in it's aesthetic than any previous version of Android.

I also don't understand what is the big deal about widgets? The only widget I have on my home screen is the clock.

Lindenhurst
Jul 25, 2012, 12:37 PM
I don't get what about IOS is dated compared to jelly bean?
I have both devices and both operating systems are very similar in terms of features. If anything thing Jellybean more closely resembles IOS in it's aesthetic than any previous version of Android.

I also don't understand what is the big deal about widgets? The only widget I have on my home screen is the clock.

I guess it is the ability to have them if you want them! I just got off the phone with Google to arrange for the return of my Nexus 7 tablet. AFter a full week with it, I find that I don't need it. I have a Galaxy Note phone which I love, and an Ipad2 which I also love. For me, surfing on my Note is every bit as good as it was on the Nexus 7 tablet, so the device was a bit redundant for me. If I really want the best tablet user experience, I use the iPad because of it's ability to view full screen desktop websites without having to constantly pan and zoom.
I do love Android after a few months with the Note, but since I already have an iPad, I'll stick with it. Had I not already had one, I'd probably give a full size Android tablet a go. IOS and Android are both nice for me, and the only reason I left iPhone was over the not so large screen size.

freudling
Jul 26, 2012, 05:58 PM
Did he? I can't remember much talk of target sizes. (Or to be more accurate, I don't remember exactly who said what -- it's all turning into a giant blur :p) But in order for touch target sizes to remain the same, wouldn't the layout have to change? For instance, the forward/backward, bookmark and sharing icons at the top of Safari in iPad. If you just shrink the whole iPad UI, all the icons will get smaller and squished closer together. I know that in the case of Safari, the result might still be within Apple's interface guidelines, but will that be the case with all UI elements in all apps? And just because something is within Apple's guidelines, doesn't guarantee that it will be easy to use. Will I find that I can use a scaled down Safari UI on an iPad mini as easily as the full-sized one on the current iPad, or will I wish the mini had its own layout? I won't know until I actually try one.

As for the home screen grid, okay, that will be no problem if the layout stays the same on the iPad mini. Maybe Apple did plan ahead and always planned to come out with a mini tablet, even while Steve was bashing other company's 7-inchers! ;)

You're probably not going to get anywhere with people like knucklehead because they keep posting things over and over that demonstrate they lack an understanding of software development and interface design.

The larger point I made was that you can't just keep the UI the same with varying screens because the UI will get 'messed up'. For instance, you can't just scale down an iPad App, like the iBooks App to the size where it would fit an iPhone screen. Buttons would be tiny, some features overlapping, it doesn't make any sense. In a similar fashion, you can't leave all of the buttons the same size and try to position them on screen: they'll overlap each other because the screen is far too small. It's why you have to design new interfaces for different sized screens, which is exactly what Apple has done with the iBookstore and other Apps on the iPhone: it's a simplified UI compared to the iPad version because their's LESS room for UI elements. And UI elements can be seen to actually be FARTHER apart from one another (check Safari on your iPhone vs. your iPad... back and forward buttons) because Apple knows that people use that smaller screen with their thumbs: the meatiest pointing device on your hand. You need more space in between UI elements to mitigate spurious inputs.

None of this is to be confused with having MINIMUM sized touch targets, which is a whole other conversation.

But back to your point, I've actually scaled the iPad iBookstore App down to the size where it'd fit an iPhone screen. The result is absurd. I demonstrated before how the size of the touch targets scale down much faster when you just try and scale an App down without making any other changes: they get too small too fast. The buttons on the iBookstore are tiny, for instance, and on the Tweener, the buttons are still too small.

Anyway, another point to knucklehead:

The iPad and the iPhone use the EXACT same operating system. To argue that the operating systems are different when run on a different screen size is absurd. There is NO difference between them whatsoever. Zero. Nothing. The only difference is scale of the OS. It's like saying Windows is a different operating system on laptops with a 17" screen compared to ones with a 12" screen. Screen size has nothing to do with the operating system and the hardware architecture. Both the operating system and the hardware architecture are the same on the iPad and the iPhone. And the iPod Touch. The hardware here is different than what OS X runs on. And the input method for iPod Touches, iPads, and iPhones is different than point and click devices running OS X, but are themselves the exact same: multi-touch.

Thus, devices running iOS are in a category by themselves, whereas those running OS X are in their own category. These are different devices. One's meant for mobility, the other productivity.

Night Spring
Jul 26, 2012, 10:10 PM
But back to your point, I've actually scaled the iPad iBookstore App down to the size where it'd fit an iPhone screen. The result is absurd. I demonstrated before how the size of the touch targets scale down much faster when you just try and scale an App down without making any other changes: they get too small too fast. The buttons on the iBookstore are tiny, for instance, and on the Tweener, the buttons are still too small.

Wait, what? Nobody is arguing that the iPad interface should be scaled down to iPhone size. Of course that would be absurd and unusable. The discussion is about whether we can scale the iPad interface to a 7-8 inch tablet and if that would be usable or not.

freudling
Jul 27, 2012, 12:10 AM
Wait, what? Nobody is arguing that the iPad interface should be scaled down to iPhone size. Of course that would be absurd and unusable. The discussion is about whether we can scale the iPad interface to a 7-8 inch tablet and if that would be usable or not.

Yes I know. What I determined was that buttons scale down too fast and become too small on the tweener. It's not proportional... therefore no magic button that will just make the larger interface work on the Tweener without work. I kept going all the way to see how bad it would get to the iPhone.

The iGentleman
Jul 27, 2012, 01:32 AM
It is all a fact.

1. The Retina screen is SHARPER and CRISPER than the Nexus. This is a fact because the average human eye cannot discern individual pixels on a Retina like they can on the Sexus. The Sexus needs close to 300 ppi to qualify as a Retina screen.
All of this is a fact.

Might want to check your "facts" there buddy. You DO realize the new iPad's ppi is 264 right? :eek: ... but I'm sure you knew that....

What you need to understand is pixel discernment has as much to do with distance as it does ppi. The term "retina" was used because after 300ppi, the human eye cannot discern individual pixels at a distance of 11". A person would not hold a tablet 11" away from their face, hence why Apple used the term "retina" for the new iPad. With a tablet, it can be as much as 24"+ away from the user's face, therefore a much lower ppi can be used and individual pixels still cannot be discerned. That said, if you want to say the pixels in the Nexus 7 can indeed be discerned, then you need to show me a definition for "retina" that was used in the new iPad and show the distance limitation for that ppi. Until then, you might want to stop with that argument because you've already made yourself look silly. ;)

The iGentleman
Jul 27, 2012, 01:52 AM
All Google Now does is perform a web search. Type a question into Google Now on your computer or tablet and you'll get the same answer above all the web results.

As you can see below, I typed in "how old is dustin pedroia" and Google loaded with his age and birthday at the top. It's the same exact thing that Google Now will show, the only difference being Now puts it in a card format. You even get more info on the right side. Of course you can't go to Google.com and type in "remind me to feed the dog" on your computer. I'm only talking about information based queries, not productivity things Now does.

Image (/img341/1552/picturejx.jpg)

That and a lot of other stuff.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1412293

freudling
Jul 27, 2012, 11:00 AM
Might want to check your "facts" there buddy. You DO realize the new iPad's ppi is 264 right? :eek: ... but I'm sure you knew that....

What you need to understand is pixel discernment has as much to do with distance as it does ppi. The term "retina" was used because after 300ppi, the human eye cannot discern individual pixels at a distance of 11". A person would not hold a tablet 11" away from their face, hence why Apple used the term "retina" for the new iPad. With a tablet, it can be as much as 24"+ away from the user's face, therefore a much lower ppi can be used and individual pixels still cannot be discerned. That said, if you want to say the pixels in the Nexus 7 can indeed be discerned, then you need to show me a definition for "retina" that was used in the new iPad and show the distance limitation for that ppi. Until then, you might want to stop with that argument because you've already made yourself look silly. ;)

Hey buddy. Silly people like you who can't do math make themself look silly all the time. Let's see if you can figure out why the Nexus 7 needs closer to 300 ppi to be Retina.

iGentenlemen: "Arrrgh [blue in the face]. I'll show you!"

batting1000
Jul 27, 2012, 11:02 AM
Hey buddy. Silly people like you who can't do math make themself look silly all the time. Let's see if you can figure out why the Nexus 7 needs closer to 300 ppi to be Retina.

iGentenlemen: "Arrrgh [blue in the face]. I'll show you!"

I see what you're saying, but the Nexus 7 has a smaller display than the iPad, thus making the smaller pixel count still "retina-like" for it's screen size.

Renzatic
Jul 27, 2012, 11:11 AM
Playing devil's advocate here, the Nexus 7 being smaller could mean you're holding it slightly closer to your face, which would mean it requires a higher PPI count to be "retina".

But you've got to see this from Freudling's reasoning here, which is "this number is bigger, this number is smaller, therefore the bigger number wins" without actually understanding whys the hows, the whats, or even the ultimately small difference between the two. We're talking a small deficit in pixel density between the two devices. What was it? 210ish PPI vs 250ish or something? Not a vast amount. You can explain that to him, but he'll keep saying the same thing over and over again. "The iPad is retina, that means you can't see the pixels. That means it's better".

...well, yeah. Technically that's true. But can you count the individual pixels on the Nexus display? I doubt it. It might not be retina, but it's still got a sharp display. Sure, you'd be more likely to notice aliasing on it in comparison to the iPad 3, but you'll have to go out of your way to see it.

knucklehead
Jul 27, 2012, 11:57 AM
You're probably not going to get anywhere with people like knucklehead because they keep posting things over and over that demonstrate they lack an understanding of software development and interface design.

The larger point I made was that you can't just keep the UI the same with varying screens because the UI will get 'messed up'. For instance, you can't just scale down an iPad App, like the iBooks App to the size where it would fit an iPhone screen. Buttons would be tiny, some features overlapping, it doesn't make any sense. In a similar fashion, you can't leave all of the buttons the same size and try to position them on screen: they'll overlap each other because the screen is far too small. It's why you have to design new interfaces for different sized screens, which is exactly what Apple has done with the iBookstore and other Apps on the iPhone: it's a simplified UI compared to the iPad version because their's LESS room for UI elements. And UI elements can be seen to actually be FARTHER apart from one another (check Safari on your iPhone vs. your iPad... back and forward buttons) because Apple knows that people use that smaller screen with their thumbs: the meatiest pointing device on your hand. You need more space in between UI elements to mitigate spurious inputs.

And again, there you go making no sense.
First you prove my point that the small screened iPhone cannot run the same apps as the iPad, and then mix that up with how a 7.85 iPad app would work.

None of this is to be confused with having MINIMUM sized touch targets, which is a whole other conversation.

But back to your point, I've actually scaled the iPad iBookstore App down to the size where it'd fit an iPhone screen. The result is absurd. I demonstrated before how the size of the touch targets scale down much faster when you just try and scale an App down without making any other changes: they get too small too fast. The buttons on the iBookstore are tiny, for instance, and on the Tweener, the buttons are still too small.

Again you state the obvious as if you're delivering some sort of revelation.
iPad apps won't scale down to iPhone size. They can scale down to 7.85" size, and the touch interface will stay within Apple's Human Interface Guidelines.

Anyway, another point to knucklehead:

The iPad and the iPhone use the EXACT same operating system. To argue that the operating systems are different when run on a different screen size is absurd. There is NO difference between them whatsoever. Zero. Nothing. The only difference is scale of the OS. It's like saying Windows is a different operating system on laptops with a 17" screen compared to ones with a 12" screen. Screen size has nothing to do with the operating system and the hardware architecture. Both the operating system and the hardware architecture are the same on the iPad and the iPhone. And the iPod Touch. The hardware here is different than what OS X runs on. And the input method for iPod Touches, iPads, and iPhones is different than point and click devices running OS X, but are themselves the exact same: multi-touch.

Yet again, you manage to make no sense.
Point out where I said anything about the operating system.
I was talking about apps, which are something different than the OS ... if you're not aware.


Thus, devices running iOS are in a category by themselves, whereas those running OS X are in their own category. These are different devices. One's meant for mobility, the other productivity.

q

The iGentleman
Jul 27, 2012, 11:58 AM
I see what you're saying, but the Nexus 7 has a smaller display than the iPad, thus making the smaller pixel count still "retina-like" for it's screen size.

Exactly. lol I can't believe we're agreeing on something. He doesn't seem to get it. What's funnier is, he doesn't even know what ppi and what distance it would have to be for it to be "retina". What he doesn't realize is the 300ppi number has no relevance when we're talking about something that can be held as much as 24" away from the eye. Until he provides something concrete showing the necessary distance and ppi, he's got no leg to stand on.

batting1000
Jul 27, 2012, 12:00 PM
Exactly. lol I can't believe we're agreeing on something. He doesn't seem to get it. What's funnier is, he doesn't even know what ppi and what distance it would have to be for it to be "retina". What he doesn't realize is the 300ppi number has no relevance when we're talking about something that can be held as much as 24" away from the eye. Until he provides something concrete showing the necessary distance and ppi, he's got no leg to stand on.

Lol, yes! The bigger the screen, the bigger the ppi count needed to make it retina-eligible.

The iGentleman
Jul 27, 2012, 12:05 PM
Hey buddy. Silly people like you who can't do math make themself look silly all the time. Let's see if you can figure out why the Nexus 7 needs closer to 300 ppi to be Retina.

iGentenlemen: "Arrrgh [blue in the face]. I'll show you!"

That 300ppi number you keep throwing out there is for a ppi of 300 at a distance of 11". Just saying "closer to 300" means nothing. You don't even know what qualifies as "retina". So I tell you what, post something showing what the necessary distance and ppi is for a tablet to be "retina". Tablets can be held as much as 24" away from the face, so let us know what the necessary ppi would have to be, since you obviously must know... :rolleyes: since you said the Nexus 7 doesn't qualify. I'll be waiting on your answer. Until then, you have no leg to stand on. Prove it or keep quiet.

Vegastouch
Jul 27, 2012, 12:11 PM
Playing devil's advocate here, the Nexus 7 being smaller could mean you're holding it slightly closer to your face, which would mean it requires a higher PPI count to be "retina".

But you've got to see this from Freudling's reasoning here, which is "this number is bigger, this number is smaller, therefore the bigger number wins" without actually understanding whys the hows, the whats, or even the ultimately small difference between the two. We're talking a small deficit in pixel density between the two devices. What was it? 210ish PPI vs 250ish or something? Not a vast amount. You can explain that to him, but he'll keep saying the same thing over and over again. "The iPad is retina, that means you can't see the pixels. That means it's better".

...well, yeah. Technically that's true. But can you count the individual pixels on the Nexus display? I doubt it. It might not be retina, but it's still got a sharp display. Sure, you'd be more likely to notice aliasing on it in comparison to the iPad 3, but you'll have to go out of your way to see it.

I agree. I dont have or tablet but i do think the iPad 3 screen is beautiful from seeing it in Best Buy. I have not seen a Nexus 7 screen but from others remarks, id bet it is a nice screen too. And if both are nice, that wouldnt be my #1 priority. The size and functions would be.

I probably will not get a Tablet that requires data, just wi-fi only as i really dont NEED a tablet, it is just a conveinient toy to use at home mostly for the Wife who uses a iPod to look at stuff such as TMZ and whatever else she likes on that tiny screen. She doesnt have a phone with data and im having a hard time to convince her to get a smartphone.
She doesnt use the computer much either so it isnt a big deal to her but id like to get her a bigger screen to look at and a 7" tablet would be perfect. Just think a 10" tablet might be too big and @ $499, it costs too much.

Not to mention iTunes would just frustrate her. Last i used iTunes, you had to delete things in there to remove it from your device and then update it or it will reappear next time you plug it in.... instead of just being able to do it from the device wirelessly.That should be a no brainer change but i havent used iTunes for over two years and didnt like it then.

So i guess what im saying is this PPI talk in this thread is irelevent if both screens look nice. I dont need the best one. Function and price are more important.

knucklehead
Jul 27, 2012, 12:18 PM
So i guess what im saying is this PPI talk in this thread is irelevent if both screens look nice. I dont need the best one. Function and price are more important.

As would just about everyone else...

From the anandtech review:

The Nexus 7's display is somewhere between good and perfection. It's not on the latter end of the spectrum, but it's great for $199. Black levels are good, and max brightness is more than enough for indoor use, although you'll have problems outdoors if it's too sunny.
Read more at http://www.anandtech.com/show/6073/the-google-nexus-7-review/3#AmfDRxJqpx1jDgHc.99

freudling
Jul 27, 2012, 12:48 PM
I see what you're saying, but the Nexus 7 has a smaller display than the iPad, thus making the smaller pixel count still "retina-like" for it's screen size.

The iPad has almost 50 more ppi compared to the Nexus. The screen is much larger on the iPad. Because of this u hold the device farther from your eyes. The smaller the device, the closer you hold it: it's why ppi has to increase with smaller screens to qualify as Retina (iPhone has 326 poi). The Nexus 7 has to have even more ppi than the iPad 3 to qualify as Retina because the screen is held cliser to the eyes: for the average user not to be able to discern individual pixels.

If you do the math on Retina you'll find the Nexus 7 needs closer to 300 ppi to qualify as Retina, or about 75 more ppi than it has now.

While its screen is decent, I can reliably discern individual pixels. This is most evident with text.

knucklehead
Jul 27, 2012, 12:57 PM
The iPad has almost 50 more ppi compared to the Nexus. The screen is much larger on the iPad. Because of this u hold the device farther from your eyes. The smaller the device, the closer you hold it: it's why ppi has to increase with smaller screens to qualify as Retina (iPhone has 326 poi). The Nexus 7 has to have even more ppi than the iPad 3 to qualify as Retina because the screen is held cliser to the eyes: for the average user not to be able to discern individual pixels.

If you do the math on Retina you'll find the Nexus 7 needs closer to 300 ppi to qualify as Retina, or about 75 more ppi than it has now.

While its screen is decent, I can reliably discern individual pixels. This is most evident with text.

Clearly, not everyone agrees with you:

The resolution is high enough that neither Brian nor I were able to identify individual pixels at our normal viewing distances. Images do look better on the new iPad however (not a resolution but rather a panel advantage).
Read more at http://www.anandtech.com/show/6073/the-google-nexus-7-review/3#AmfDRxJqpx1jDgHc.99

Night Spring
Jul 27, 2012, 12:57 PM
If you do the math on Retina you'll find the Nexus 7 needs closer to 300 ppi to qualify as Retina, or about 75 more ppi than it has now.

While its screen is decent, I can reliably discern individual pixels. This is most evident with text.

Okay, stop. Nobody is arguing that the Nexus 7 screen qualifies as retina, or that it is as good as the iPad 3 screen. But many people are saying it is good enough *for them*. That's a personal choice. You can argue until you are blue in the face that it isn't good enough *for you*, but nobody will care.

freudling
Jul 27, 2012, 01:18 PM
Okay, stop. Nobody is arguing that the Nexus 7 screen qualifies as retina, or that it is as good as the iPad 3 screen. But many people are saying it is good enough *for them*. That's a personal choice. You can argue until you are blue in the face that it isn't good enough *for you*, but nobody will care.

I've got no problem with this, I do have a problem with people constantly trolling and twisting and turning reality.

The iGentleman
Jul 27, 2012, 01:37 PM
Lol, yes! The bigger the screen, the bigger the ppi count needed to make it retina-eligible.

This is unbelievable. We've agreed twice in a day! :eek: lol. But what's right is right, and you sir are right!

----------

The iPad has almost 50 more ppi compared to the Nexus. The screen is much larger on the iPad. Because of this u hold the device farther from your eyes. The smaller the device, the closer you hold it: it's why ppi has to increase with smaller screens to qualify as Retina (iPhone has 326 poi). The Nexus 7 has to have even more ppi than the iPad 3 to qualify as Retina because the screen is held cliser to the eyes: for the average user not to be able to discern individual pixels.

If you do the math on Retina you'll find the Nexus 7 needs closer to 300 ppi to qualify as Retina, or about 75 more ppi than it has now.

While its screen is decent, I can reliably discern individual pixels. This is most evident with text.

You're talking nonsense, and just pulling stuff out of your behind. Talk facts. Like I said, give some hard numbers to back it up, not your ridiculous speculation. FYI, a 7" tab doesn't have to be held any closer than a 10". That said, bring some hard facts to back up your claims. Show us something that shows both the distance and required ppi for pixels to no longer be discernable. Until you bring some actual facts to back up what you state, you're just pissing in the wind. Just like you always ask people to make videos....I'm asking you to bring some facts to the table. Until you bring some facts, just keep it shut :eek:

batting1000
Jul 27, 2012, 01:42 PM
This is unbelievable. We've agreed twice in a day! :eek: lol. But what's right is right, and you sir are right!

----------



You're talking nonsense, and just pulling stuff out of your behind. Talk facts. Like I said, give some hard numbers to back it up, not your ridiculous speculation. FYI, a 7" tab doesn't have to be held any closer than a 10". That said, bring some hard facts to back up your claims. Show us something that shows both the distance and required ppi for pixels to no longer be discernable. Until you bring some actual facts to back up what you state, you're just pissing in the wind. Just like you always ask people to make videos....I'm asking you to bring some facts to the table. Until you bring some facts, just keep it shut :eek:

Exactly. I don't hold my iPhone any closer to my face than my iPad.

freudling
Jul 27, 2012, 02:10 PM
That 300ppi number you keep throwing out there is for a ppi of 300 at a distance of 11". Just saying "closer to 300" means nothing. You don't even know what qualifies as "retina". So I tell you what, post something showing what the necessary distance and ppi is for a tablet to be "retina". Tablets can be held as much as 24" away from the face, so let us know what the necessary ppi would have to be, since you obviously must know... :rolleyes: since you said the Nexus 7 doesn't qualify. I'll be waiting on your answer. Until then, you have no leg to stand on. Prove it or keep quiet.

Once again you twist and turn things and misunderstand. I said closer to 300 ppi for the Nexus 7 to keep it simple because there's various calculations you can do with different results. This is not to be confused with the benchmark that Apple put out of 300 ppi at a distance of ~11" being the magical spot where the human eye can't discern individual pixels on a screen. Apple's benchmark seems to have ended up with the iPhone, with 326 ppi at an average distance of 10". I imagine this accounts for variability.

With these assumptions, depending on how you calculate things, the Nexus 7 could need between 289 and 314 ppi to qualify as a Retina display.

On the most basic analysis, if you stick the Nexus in the middle of the iPad and iPhone, the average person would hold it about 12.5" away from their eyes (iPhone 10", iPad 15"). 326+264/2=295 ppi.

Another way of looking at it: in the case of the iPhone and the iPad, Apple takes off 12.4 ppi for each inch you hold the device farther from your face. If you hold the Nexus an average 3" farther from your face than the iPhone, or at 13", it would need ppi = 326-(12.4*3). 289 ppi.

The following image refers:

http://i.stack.imgur.com/zWfta.jpg

Anyone can play with the calculations, including using the alpha equation. Apple's assumptions and their Retina display technology has held up to scrutiny. That the assumptions have been found to be valid by several experts.

In other words, there is a natural distance a device is held from the face and that distance plays a key role in the number of ppi required so a person can't discern individual pixels. There is also a benchmark in terms of the minimum number of ppi required at x distance for a person not to be able to discern individual pixels. While the Nexus 7 has a nice display, it doesn't qualify as a Retina display because it would need a significant increase in the number of ppi it has: another ~75+.

http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/44196/does-the-ipad-2012-3rd-generation-have-the-most-pixels-of-any-tablets-displa/44222#44222

----------

This is unbelievable. We've agreed twice in a day! :eek: lol. But what's right is right, and you sir are right!

----------



You're talking nonsense, and just pulling stuff out of your behind. Talk facts. Like I said, give some hard numbers to back it up, not your ridiculous speculation. FYI, a 7" tab doesn't have to be held any closer than a 10". That said, bring some hard facts to back up your claims. Show us something that shows both the distance and required ppi for pixels to no longer be discernable. Until you bring some actual facts to back up what you state, you're just pissing in the wind. Just like you always ask people to make videos....I'm asking you to bring some facts to the table. Until you bring some facts, just keep it shut :eek:

In other words, you've just been schooled, again.

The iGentleman
Jul 27, 2012, 02:35 PM
Once again you twist and turn things and misunderstand. I said closer to 300 ppi for the Nexus 7 to keep it simple because there's various calculations you can do with different results. This is not to be confused with the benchmark that Apple put out of 300 ppi at a distance of ~11" being the magical spot where the human eye can't discern individual pixels on a screen. Apple's benchmark seems to have ended up with the iPhone, with 326 ppi at an average distance of 10". I imagine this accounts for variability.

With these assumptions, depending on how you calculate things, the Nexus 7 could need between 289 and 314 ppi to qualify as a Retina display.

On the most basic analysis, if you stick the Nexus in the middle of the iPad and iPhone, the average person would hold it about 12.5" away from their eyes (iPhone 10", iPad 15"). 326+264/2=295 ppi.

Another way of looking at it: in the case of the iPhone and the iPad, Apple takes off 12.4 ppi for each inch you hold the device farther from your face. If you hold the Nexus an average 3" farther from your face than the iPhone, or at 13", it would need ppi = 326-(12.4*3). 289 ppi.

The following image refers:

http://i.stack.imgur.com/zWfta.jpg

Anyone can play with the calculations, including using the alpha equation. Apple's assumptions and their Retina display technology has held up to scrutiny. That the assumptions have been found to be valid by several experts.

In other words, there is a natural distance a device is held from the face and that distance plays a key role in the number of ppi required so a person can't discern individual pixels. There is also a benchmark in terms of the minimum number of ppi required at x distance for a person not to be able to discern individual pixels. While the Nexus 7 has a nice display, it doesn't qualify as a Retina display because it would need a significant increase in the number of ppi it has: another ~75+.

http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/44196/does-the-ipad-2012-3rd-generation-have-the-most-pixels-of-any-tablets-displa/44222#44222

----------



In other words, you've just been schooled, again.

No...actually you've schooled nothing. You've again just pulled numbers out of your behind. First, of all Apple based the 300ppi number on 11" not 10. Furthermore, you assert a person is going to hold a 7" tablet 12.5" from their face. You just pulled that number out of your behind. Nobody in their right mind is going to hold a tablet a foot away from their face. The very notion of that is flat out stupid. Furthermore, your made up math "sticks the nexus in the middle of the iPad and iPhone. Unfortunately, it's not in the middle of the iPad and iPhone. The iPhone's display is 3.5", while the iPad's display is 9.7". Meanwhile the Nexus 7 is 7", that is not a middle point between those two sizes, thus your "stick it in the middle" makes no sense. To take it even further, your calculation makes no sense as that is not how discernable pixels is calculated. At every distance, there is a certain ppi a device needs to be so that the human eye at 20/20 vision cannot discern the pixels. You have failed to address hat, as it would seem you don't know what those distances are. BTW, that 15" number you threw out there, is just what many sites speculated as being the distance used in the iPad's measurement, HOWEVER, what they don't know is what ppi number is needed for the pixels to not be distinguishable and thus "retina". You know why they don't know? Because it was never stated. You can't say "Apples take off 12.4 ppi for every inch", because you don't even know what the "retina" ppi threshold is at 15" to even make that determination. For all you know the iPad could be above that threshold just like the iPhone is above the 11" threshold. So again, I'd love to see how you intend to prove your point, considering you have absolutely no facts to back it up at all. You've proved nothing more than the fact you know how to blow hot air and pull useless numbers out of your behind. Now run along, you've done enough making a spectacle of yourself for one day. ;)

CylonGlitch
Jul 27, 2012, 03:13 PM
This is my take. I'll wait until the end of the year. If Apple comes out with the iPad3 7" (or maybe even an iPad2 7") for the same price point $249 or less ($199 would be killer) I'll buy it for my kids for Christmas. If they don't; I'll buy them the Nexus7.

Let me add this as well. I'm in the market for a tablet; I'd love a full iPad3 . . . but the price hurts. Nexus7 seems to have done it right, but I really don't like google as a company. BUT I am very tempted to pick up a Nexus7 just to play with it. If the iPad mini or whatever doesn't pan out soon, I may just buy one for myself to play with.

freudling
Jul 27, 2012, 03:46 PM
No...actually you've schooled nothing. You've again just pulled numbers out of your behind.

This is going to be fun. Are you ready? Of course you are, that's why you keep reading and keep coming back because you're not confident in your answers and you have some inkling of the huge dark space inside your mind.

I said: ...with the benchmark that Apple put out of 300 ppi at a distance of ~11"...

You read it, then you say:

First, of all Apple based the 300ppi number on 11" not 10.

You need to reread your stuff more than 5 times to make sure it sticks.

Furthermore, you assert a person is going to hold a 7" tablet 12.5" from their face. You just pulled that number out of your behind. Nobody in their right mind is going to hold a tablet a foot away from their face. The very notion of that is flat out stupid.

I never pulled any number out of anyone's behind. I used it as a simple example for people like you to show how a device that is effectively an in between device such as the Nexus could have its Retina ppi determined at an in between distance: in between 10 and 15". I never asserted anything, including that people would in fact hold the device that far from their face.

But from everyone measured here in the office the numbers are spot on. What about other people though? Turns out, some other people are saying the 10" for the iPhone and the 15" for the iPad are close and even spot on... that people do hold the device that far from their face, and even farther. Pretty flat out stupid, eh!

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1336685

Furthermore, your made up math "sticks the nexus in the middle of the iPad and iPhone. Unfortunately, it's not in the middle of the iPad and iPhone. The iPhone's display is 3.5", while the iPad's display is 9.7". Meanwhile the Nexus 7 is 7", that is not a middle point between those two sizes, thus your "stick it in the middle" makes no sense. To take it even further, your calculation makes no sense as that is not how discernable pixels is calculated.

Trying even to illustrate something in the simplest of terms is still even to complicated for you. Let's learn the A, B, Cs again.

A. The larger the screen, the farther it's held from your face.
B. The Nexus 7 has a bigger screen than the iPhone, and a smaller screen than the iPad.
A+B= the Nexus 7 is held farther from the face than the iPhone, and closer than the iPad. If the iPad has a known value (264 ppi), we can deduce that the Nexus 7 must have a greater number of ppi than the iPad under Apple's Retina scale. That this must be the case. Therefore, the 216 ppi that the Nexus 7 has right now does not qualify as a Retina display because its pixels are not dense enough at the distance it would be held from the face (more than 10" and less than 15").

To reduce you to absurdity, and to keep things really dead simple:

Using Apple's benchmark of 300 ppi at 11": if the Nexus were held at 11" from the face, it would need 300 ppi to qualify as a Retina. It has 216 ppi, 84 ppi short. If it were held an extra inch from the face, at 12"... 1 foot... which is "just stupid! and can't be so!... nobody would hold it that far from their face!..."

It would need slightly less ppi. On your incredulous take... people will hold the Nexus 7 closer to their face... which means that anything under 11" will mean the ppi will have to increase, ever widening the gap between the 216 ppi that it currently has and the 300+ that it'll need.

At every distance, there is a certain ppi a device needs to be so that the human eye at 20/20 vision cannot discern the pixels. You have failed to address hat, as it would seem you don't know what those distances are. BTW, that 15" number you threw out there, is just what many sites speculated as being the distance used in the iPad's measurement, HOWEVER, what they don't know is what ppi number is needed for the pixels to not be distinguishable and thus "retina". You know why they don't know? Because it was never stated. You can't say "Apples take off 12.4 ppi for every inch", because you don't even know what the "retina" ppi threshold is at 15" to even make that determination.

Well, by now you probably are fuming... so I'll save you the embarrassment other than to say that 15" is the benchmark distance Apple set for the iPad 3 and has it at 264 ppi. Full stop. At a normal distance 10" as in the iPhone, 264 ppi does NOT qualify as a Retina display as calculated using the equation Apple itself endorses.

http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/44196/does-the-ipad-2012-3rd-generation-have-the-most-pixels-of-any-tablets-displa/44222#44222

For all you know the iPad could be above that threshold just like the iPhone is above the 11" threshold. So again, I'd love to see how you intend to prove your point, considering you have absolutely no facts to back it up at all. You've proved nothing more than the fact you know how to blow hot air and pull useless numbers out of your behind. Now run along, you've done enough making a spectacle of yourself for one day. ;)

A child is schooled once again.

----------

Clearly, not everyone agrees with you:

The resolution is high enough that neither Brian nor I were able to identify individual pixels at our normal viewing distances. Images do look better on the new iPad however (not a resolution but rather a panel advantage).
Read more at http://www.anandtech.com/show/6073/the-google-nexus-7-review/3#AmfDRxJqpx1jDgHc.99

The average human eye at the normal distance the Nexus is held from the eyes can discern the individual pixels. This is a fact. You are the exception. And I doubt anyone on here would believe you anyway: you are motivated not by truth but to simply argue.

knucklehead
Jul 27, 2012, 03:50 PM
The average human eye at the normal distance the Nexus is held from the eyes can discern the individual pixels. This is a fact. You are the exception. And I doubt anyone on here would believe you anyway: you are motivated not by truth but to simply argue.

Your inability to comprehend breaks into new territory -- it seems to be able to go everywhere!

I don't own a Nexus, and have never seen one.

That was clearly a quote from a professional review.

freudling
Jul 27, 2012, 04:06 PM
Your inability to comprehend breaks into new territory -- it seems to be able to go everywhere!

I don't own a Nexus, and have never seen one.

That was clearly a quote from a professional review.

My response is the same no matter if it's you or anyone else.

And the only thing to comprehend is that you waste your time arguing when you don't own the device. Quoting articles.

Go get the device and use it, then post in here.

Vegastouch
Jul 27, 2012, 04:19 PM
Again, screen clarity isn't my #1 priority. I dont care if the Nexus 7 can be classified as a retina display. That doesn't faze me one way or the other. Make the iPad 3 at least $299 and we have a discussion. Till then i like the $249 priced 16GB Nexus 7 better. Is the iPad3 that is $499 even a 16GB device or is it a 8GB?

knucklehead
Jul 27, 2012, 04:39 PM
My response is the same no matter if it's you or anyone else.

And the only thing to comprehend is that you waste your time arguing when you don't own the device. Quoting articles.

Go get the device and use it, then post in here.

The device isn't available, so I, and everyone else who might be interested in it, have to rely on others impressions -- that's what reviews are for.

Then, there's also internet forums, where users can post their impressions. People like to sort through these to help guide their purchasing decisions.

When the overwhelming majority of people think the display is excellent for a device at this price -- and there's one odd-ball that's endlessly ranting about problems with the screen -- you have to wonder what's the deal with that person ...

Night Spring
Jul 27, 2012, 05:28 PM
Is the iPad3 that is $499 even a 16GB device or is it a 8GB?

It's 16GB.

Renzatic
Jul 27, 2012, 05:28 PM
Lol, yes! The bigger the screen, the bigger the ppi count needed to make it retina-eligible.

Man, I hate to break up the bonding thing you and iGentleman got going on over this, but...oh man, I feel so bad...that's not right.

Remember, retina is defined by not being able to view pixels from normal viewing distance. So the larger the screen, the farther you can stand back from it, and the lower the the PPI density required to achieve...retina.

You can even see it in Apple's own stuff. The iPhone has the smallest screen of all their products at 3.5", but sports the highest pixel density at 326 PPI. Next is the iPad, which is the next step down at 264 PPI on a 9.whatever" screen. Last but certainly not least is the rMBP, which is a 15" monitor at 220 PPI.

Going by this, you could say that a 42" 1920x1080 screen is retina, because you can't discern the individual pixels from the couch.

But really, the whole retina thing is sorta marketing BS. Think about it. Apple has all this math going on, all these rules and regulations and measurements about what makes retina retina. Yet every product they've upgraded to that status happened to get there by perfectly quadrupling the screen. It's like...

320x480? UH UH! DOUBLE UP ON X AND Y TO 640x960! RETTTINNNNAA!

1024x768? BAM! 2048x1536! RETTTIINNAA!

1440x900? WHOOOSSH! 2880x1800! WHOOOAA!

So they multiplied everything x 2. That was easy! Then they made up some cool sounding rules and a kickass name so it sounds even more awesome!

I can't deny the iPad 3, the iPhone, and the rMBP look good. Hell, the reason I bought my iPhone and iPad, and the reason why I'm deeply considering getting the rMBP is because of the retina display. But comeon, all the rules are subjective as hell. Average viewing distance to achieve? Like everyone holds their devices exactly wah inches away from their face.

If I hold my iPad at arms length, does that make it...super retina? If I look at a 72" 720p LCD TV from 200 feet away, is that...ultra retina? Hell, why not just call it what it is? High pixel density.

freudling
Jul 27, 2012, 05:48 PM
The device isn't available, so I, and everyone else who might be interested in it, have to rely on others impressions -- that's what reviews are for.

Then, there's also internet forums, where users can post their impressions. People like to sort through these to help guide their purchasing decisions.

When the overwhelming majority of people think the display is excellent for a device at this price -- and there's one odd-ball that's endlessly ranting about problems with the screen -- you have to wonder what's the deal with that person ...

I don't care what other reviewers say. Anyone can look that up. It's about what you personally experience. And since you don't own it, it seems like a huge waste of everyone's time you continuing to post in here over and over again... the only sense that can be made out of it is you simply like to argue, and that's your sole motivation.

Second, show me the data that supports the claim that an overwhelming majority think the device on the Nexus 7 is excellent.

Also, no, I'm not ranting about the problems with the Sexus, I'm pointing out that it's not a Retina screen and why it's not. And that I can actually myself see grainy text. Sometimes things are better: the screen is pretty sharp and so is the text, but it's variable. The iPhone and iPad blow it away in my experience. But science is on my side too.

Renzatic
Jul 27, 2012, 05:56 PM
Also, no, I'm not ranting about the problems with the Sexus, I'm pointing out that it's not a Retina screen and why it's not.

The sky is blue. Let us have an earnest discussion wherein we point out and inform people who might be ignorant of this fact.

Man. Everyone knows the Nexus 7 isn't a retina screen. You don't have to spell it out for us. What we're saying is that, retina though it isn't, THERE ISN'T A HUGE AMOUNT OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO!

knucklehead
Jul 27, 2012, 06:13 PM
I don't care what other reviewers say. Anyone can look that up. It's about what you personally experience. And since you don't own it, it seems like a huge waste of everyone's time you continuing to post in here over and over again... the only sense that can be made out of it is you simply like to argue, and that's your sole motivation.

I value people attempting to be objective, and not trying to carry out a one person propaganda campaign.

Second, show me the data that supports the claim that an overwhelming majority think the device on the Nexus 7 is excellent.

Show some others besides yourself that think the display resolution on the Nexus 7 is a problem (I assume that's what you meant when you typed "device on the Nexus 7" ... but you do have a way of not making sense .... ) According to you, they should be all over the place, and easy to find.

Also, no, I'm not ranting about the problems with the Sexus, I'm pointing out that it's not a Retina screen and why it's not. And that I can actually myself see grainy text. Sometimes things are better: the screen is pretty sharp and so is the text, but it's variable. The iPhone and iPad blow it away in my experience. But science is on my side too.

Again, point out some other people who have used it that agree with you that it represents a problem worth going on, and on, and on about.

Hamburger!

freudling
Jul 27, 2012, 06:35 PM
The sky is blue. Let us have an earnest discussion wherein we point out and inform people who might be ignorant of this fact.

Man. Everyone knows the Nexus 7 isn't a retina screen. You don't have to spell it out for us. What we're saying is that, retina though it isn't, THERE ISN'T A HUGE AMOUNT OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO!

Science disagrees with you!!! And my experience does too!!!

Renzatic
Jul 27, 2012, 06:37 PM
Science disagrees with you!!! And my experience does too!!!

The science behind retina is vague marketing, and your experience is incredibly subjective.

freudling
Jul 27, 2012, 06:53 PM
Hamburger!

I value people attempting to be objective, and not trying to carry out a one person propaganda campaign.

The only thing you value is hijacking threads. Just go to other threads there's tons. You won't miss out. But you won't, because you have an addiction, and that's to arguing. Your name pops up on these Nexus threads all over yet you don't own it nor have you seen it. It speaks of someone with a motivation other than to discuss the pitfalls and merits of the product. It's not that people aren't allowed to post in threads where they don't own said product, but to do it as much and as vehemently as you speaks of someone just wanting to argue and nothing more.

Show some others besides yourself that think the display resolution on the Nexus 7 is a problem (I assume that's what you meant when you typed "device on the Nexus 7" ... but you do have a way of not making sense .... ) According to you, they should be all over the place, and easy to find.

I never once said the display resolution on the Sexus was a "problem". You keep making these broad sweeping generalizations based on zero support. My point about the Nexus is that it's 1) Not a Retina display 2) The text is at times grainy to my eye. That's it. I never said the display is some problem in this context for other people and have even stated that, at times, it's decent. It's been about the Retina display and how much more I like it and the science behind it... The rest is your own drivel.

The reality: you said:

...an overwhelming majority think the display on the Nexus 7 is excellent.

Then show us the data, show it. You said it. You made the generalization. You back it up.

----------

The science behind retina is vague marketing, and your experience is incredibly subjective.

The science behind the Retina is NOT vague marketing, and my experience is NOT subjective. I fall into the large average user group with 20/20 vision. All of the science has already been explained.

It is demonstrated and a fact that people with 20/20 vision can reliably, at the same preset distance, discern individual pixels on a screen at x resolution. The benchmark is established and it is a fact. Just like the benchmark is established and is a fact regarding 20/20 vision: standing 20 feet away and seeing the eye chart means you have 20/20 vision: you have normal vision.

This is a fact and is indisputable.

You are simply incredulous and therefore are not adding anything to this discussion other than derailing it.

knucklehead
Jul 27, 2012, 07:12 PM
I value people attempting to be objective, and not trying to carry out a one person propaganda campaign.

The only thing you value is hijacking threads. Just go to other threads there's tons. You won't miss out. But you won't, because you have an addiction, and that's to arguing. Your name pops up on these Nexus threads all over yet you don't own it nor have you seen it. It speaks of someone with a motivation other than to discuss the pitfalls and merits of the product. It's not that people aren't allowed to post in threads where they don't own said product, but to do it as much and as vehemently as you speaks of someone just wanting to argue and nothing more.

You really don't seem to understand forums, and how they are open to people who might have an interest in getting to the truth of matters. My posting is only in response to your propaganda techniques.

Show some others besides yourself that think the display resolution on the Nexus 7 is a problem (I assume that's what you meant when you typed "device on the Nexus 7" ... but you do have a way of not making sense .... ) According to you, they should be all over the place, and easy to find.

I never once said the display resolution on the Sexus was a "problem". You keep making these broad sweeping generalizations based on zero support. My point about the Nexus is that it's 1) Not a Retina display 2) The text is at times grainy to my eye. That's it. I never said the display is some problem in this context for other people and have even stated that, at times, it's decent. It's been about the Retina display and how much more I like it and the science behind it... The rest is your own drivel.

Everyone already knows that the display is less than what would be considered "retina" by Apple's fuzzy standard. And everyone already knows that you seem to think text sometimes "looks grainy to _your_ eye". No need at all to keep repeating it. We don't care.

The reality?: you said:

...an overwhelming majority think the display on the Nexus 7 is excellent.

Again with the cheap propaganda techniques ... Who do you think you're fooling with this? Anyone can goback a page to post 171 and see you added the period and edited my statement. Why would anyone who has any intrest in the truth do something like that?

Then show us the data, show it. You said it. You made the generalization. You back it up.

[COLOR="Red"]Again, that's just your attempt to twist the truth.
You show some others like you that seem to think the "lower than retina" display resolution is worth commenting on repeatedly.


Cheeseburger!

Greg.
Jul 27, 2012, 07:15 PM
LOL at the arguments over the retina display - at these high pixel density levels, comparisons become largely irrelevant. Retina is a just an Apple marketing term, but some people genuinely seem to believe it's some golden benchmark for where you can make out individual pixels and where you can't. Put it this way: My mid-2010 MacBook Pro has 1280x800 resolution and I've always found that a fantastic screen. The Nexus has the exact same resolution but in a 7" device, which I think is pretty incredible. Even more so when my MacBook cost over $1000 but the Nexus less than $200. Technology is amazing!

The iGentleman
Jul 27, 2012, 10:06 PM
I said: ...with the benchmark that Apple put out of 300 ppi at a distance of ~11"...

You read it, then you say:



You need to reread your stuff more than 5 times to make sure it sticks.
You seem to have overlooked the part where you said "Apple's benchmark seems to have ended up with the iPhone, with 326 ppi at an average distance of 10"." :eek: Whoops. And you just pulled the 10" number out of your behind. Apple says 11" and somehow you wind up with 10. Don't you just love it when people make things up as they go along? :eek:



I never pulled any number out of anyone's behind. I used it as a simple example for people like you to show how a device that is effectively an in between device such as the Nexus could have its Retina ppi determined at an in between distance: in between 10 and 15". I never asserted anything, including that people would in fact hold the device that far from their face.
The problem is, you did just pull a number out of your behind. If you didn't then show me the source from whence it came. You'll have to do better than just saying the Nexus is in between the iPhone and iPad, so you put it in the middle and divided by two. That makes no sense and is not mathematically accurate. Since you said you didn't pull it out of your behind, then I'm sure you must have a link with some hard facts showing the distance and ppi the Nexus would have to have. I'll wait on the link :eek:


But from everyone measured here in the office the numbers are spot on. What about other people though? Turns out, some other people are saying the 10" for the iPhone and the 15" for the iPad are close and even spot on... that people do hold the device that far from their face, and even farther. Pretty flat out stupid, eh!
So now you're going around conducting surveys, measuring the distance people hold their phones? LMAO Get out of here with that nonsense. LMAO :D FYI, if you look on the web, you will find it is quite normal for people to hold a tablet 18" or more away from their faces. Gizmodo (http://gizmodo.com/5894445/the-best-tablet-display-guess-who) for example, states between 15-18, and there are other sites that suggest even more than 18". It really isn't hard for a tablet to be held almost 2 feet away from the face.


http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1336685



Trying even to illustrate something in the simplest of terms is still even to complicated for you. Let's learn the A, B, Cs again.

A. The larger the screen, the farther it's held from your face.
B. The Nexus 7 has a bigger screen than the iPhone, and a smaller screen than the iPad.
A+B= the Nexus 7 is held farther from the face than the iPhone, and closer than the iPad. If the iPad has a known value (264 ppi), we can deduce that the Nexus 7 must have a greater number of ppi than the iPad under Apple's Retina scale. That this must be the case. Therefore, the 216 ppi that the Nexus 7 has right now does not qualify as a Retina display because its pixels are not dense enough at the distance it would be held from the face (more than 10" and less than 15").
And THAT is your problem right there. You deduction is based on a fallacy. Just because the screen is 7" doesn't mean it inherently must be held at a closer distance. Now here's where I destroy the very basis of your argument...you ready? Read on. You're asserting that the Nexus 7 has to be head at a closer proximity because it isn't as large as the iPad. HOWEVER, Displaymate (http://www.displaymate.com/iPad_ShootOut_1.htm), like Gizmodo, show the typical viewing distance of the iPad to be 15"-18". They show the typical viewing distance for the iPhone to be 12"-15". So if the typical viewing distance between the 3.5" display of the iPhone and the 9.7" display of the iPad, can differ as slightly as 3" (the difference between 15 and 18), there's no reason for you to ASSUME, the Nexus 7 has to be held any closer than the iPad.


To reduce you to absurdity, and to keep things really dead simple:

Using Apple's benchmark of 300 ppi at 11": if the Nexus were held at 11" from the face, it would need 300 ppi to qualify as a Retina. It has 216 ppi, 84 ppi short. If it were held an extra inch from the face, at 12"... 1 foot... which is "just stupid! and can't be so!... nobody would hold it that far from their face!..."

It would need slightly less ppi. On your incredulous take... people will hold the Nexus 7 closer to their face... which means that anything under 11" will mean the ppi will have to increase, ever widening the gap between the 216 ppi that it currently has and the 300+ that it'll need.
Perhaps it is YOU that should re-read. I never said 12" was too far. It's too CLOSE for a tablet. Learn to read with comprehension. :eek:



Well, by now you probably are fuming... so I'll save you the embarrassment other than to say that 15" is the benchmark distance Apple set for the iPad 3 and has it at 264 ppi. Full stop. At a normal distance 10" as in the iPhone, 264 ppi does NOT qualify as a Retina display as calculated using the equation Apple itself endorses.

http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/44196/does-the-ipad-2012-3rd-generation-have-the-most-pixels-of-any-tablets-displa/44222#44222

Wrong. Apple NEVER came out and gave a definition for retina in the iPad. Now you're just pulling stories out of your behind. You little link is quite cute, but it still fails to show what the minimum benchmark is at a particular distance. It merely goes off of what was stated about the iPhone. UNFORTUNATELY, that has no bearing on the iPad with a different ppi and viewing distance. So until you show a link that matter-of-factly states what the MINIMUM ppi is at a certain distance (particularly one up to 18"), then you have failed.



A child is schooled once again.[COLOR="#808080"]

Yes, you have once again been trounced. Now stop embarrassing yourself. :p

----------


The average human eye at the normal distance the Nexus is held from the eyes can discern the individual pixels. This is a fact. You are the exception. And I doubt anyone on here would believe you anyway: you are motivated not by truth but to simply argue.
Fact? If it's fact, then you shouldn't be having so much trouble finding the proof. Show the proof or close your mouth. ;)

RMXO
Jul 27, 2012, 10:10 PM
Cheeseburger!

Bacon Cheeseburger, mmmmmm!

tech4all
Jul 27, 2012, 11:54 PM
Put it this way: My mid-2010 MacBook Pro has 1280x800 resolution and I've always found that a fantastic screen. The Nexus has the exact same resolution but in a 7" device, which I think is pretty incredible.

I'm not sure if the two are indeed the same, but for the sake of arguments lets say they are.

You have a MacBook Pro. You didn't specify what size so let's say 13" - 15" or about double the Nexus 7. You're going to be viewing the MacBook Pro a bit further than you will a Nexus 7 tablet. So the MacBook Pro is more of a retina display than the Nexus since you will be viewing it from a further distance and the individual pixels won't resolve.

With the Nexus having a 7 inch screen you will more than likely be viewing it at a closer distance, thus you will be able to see the individual pixels (in theory of course). That means the Nexus would need to have more PPI to compensate for the shorter viewing distance.

Let's go even more extreme; billboards. From a quick Google search (http://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/3651/what-dpi-ppi-should-a-4x6-meter-outdoor-billboard-be-done-at) it seems a typical DPI for a billbaord is around 30DPI. But since we're viewing them from a far great distance, they look very sharp and you can't see the actual dots. So there a "retina display."

I was going to say ya'll need a life for debating this topic, but I just added to it so I guess a need life too :rolleyes::o

The iGentleman
Jul 28, 2012, 12:01 AM
I'm not sure if the two are indeed the same, but for the sake of arguments lets say they are.

You have a MacBook Pro. You didn't specify what size so let's say 13" - 15" or about double the Nexus 7. You're going to be viewing the MacBook Pro a bit further than you will a Nexus 7 tablet. So the MacBook Pro is more of a retina display than the Nexus since you will be viewing it from a further distance and the individual pixels won't resolve.

With the Nexus having a 7 inch screen you will more than likely be viewing it at a closer distance, thus you will be able to see the individual pixels (in theory of course). That means the Nexus would need to have more PPI to compensate for the shorter viewing distance.

Let's go even more extreme; billboards. From a quick Google search (http://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/3651/what-dpi-ppi-should-a-4x6-meter-outdoor-billboard-be-done-at) it seems a typical DPI for a billbaord is around 30DPI. But since we're viewing them from a far great distance, they look very sharp and you can't see the actual dots. So there a "retina display."

I was going to say ya'll need a life for debating this topic, but I just added to it so I guess a need life too :rolleyes::o

The problem with what you assert is if you say the Macbook was 13-15" (we'll use the middle number 14" for the sake of simplicity), then that's double the size of the Nexus 7. Now like you said, you would hold the Nexus 7 closer. However, since it's half the size of the Macbook, you could go half the distance and the effect would be the same. So if I'm normally 30" inches away from the Macbook, half of that would be 15" (in the 15-18" range of normal tablet viewing distance), and since the display is half the size, the proportions remain the same. In other words, there'd be no difference.

The iGentleman
Jul 28, 2012, 01:56 AM
post deleted

As stated previously, until you bring some cold hard facts to back up your SPECULATION, CONJECTURE, AND OPINION you have no leg to stand on. I've already destroyed your fallacy-ridden stance, so until I see some facts. Nothing you have to say carries any weight. Go find a child to debate with, perhaps you will be closer to their level. With me, you're clearly out of your league.

Renzatic
Jul 28, 2012, 02:11 AM
iGent, give up while you still have your sanity. He doesn't understand that retina is simply a marketing term applied to high res displays. Or he does, and simply wants to bait you into replying over and over and over again.

Like I said before, the simple fact that every single retina display out at the moment is simply quadrupled from it's original base res is proof of that. If they were testing for optimal resolution at average usage distance using all these metrics he's mentioning above, you'd probably end up with some really weird off kilter resolutions.

You double the res on X and Y and suddenly, almost magically, you get a sharp, crisp screen where pixels aren't discernible to all but the sharpest of eye. Who would've thunk?

The iGentleman
Jul 28, 2012, 02:22 AM
iGent, give up while you still have your sanity. He doesn't understand that retina is simply a marketing term applied to high res displays. Or he does, and simply wants to bait you into replying over and over and over again.

Like I said before, the simple fact that every single retina display out at the moment is simply quadrupled from it's original base res is proof of that. If they were testing for optimal resolution at average usage distance using all these metrics he's mentioning above, you'd probably end up with some really weird off kilter resolutions.

You double the res on X and Y and suddenly, almost magically, you get a sharp, crisp screen where pixels aren't discernible to all but the sharpest of eye. Who would've thunk?

You're absolutely right. He fails to realize that is the reason he will not be able to find any definite facts to back his claim simply because there aren't any. As you stated, it's a marketing term and nothing more. As a matter of fact, if you really want to get into it, Apple's "retina" display actually really isn't "retina" because it's only based on 20/20. Here's an excerpt from an article that explains it well.

A true “Retina Display” but not an actual Retina Display
The original Retina Display on the iPhone 4 has 326 pixels per inch (ppi). But to qualify as an Apple Retina Display the new iPad does not require the same ppi as the iPhone 4 Retina Display because it is typically held further away from the eye, whose visual sharpness is based on angular resolution rather than the linear ppi resolution on the display. The iPad is typically held 15-18 inches away as opposed to the iPhone 4’s 12-15 inches. As a result, to meet the 300 ppi Retina Display specification made by Steve Jobs at WWDC for the iPhone 4, an iPad Retina Display only needs 240 ppi – and it has 264 ppi. So according to Apple’s own definition, the new iPad is indeed a true “Retina Display.”
However, Apple’s definition of a “Retina Display” is actually for 20/20 Vision (defined as 1 arc-minute visual acuity). 20/20 Vision is just the legal definition of “Normal Vision,” which is at the lower end of true normal vision. There are in fact lots of people with much better than 20/20 Vision, and for almost everyone visual acuity is actually limited by blurring due to imperfections of the lens in the eye. The best human vision is about 20/10 Vision, twice as good as 20/20 Vision, and that is what corresponds to the true acuity of the Retina. So to be an actual “True Retina Display” a screen needs at least 573 ppi at 12 inches viewing distance or 458 ppi at 15 inches. The 326 ppi iPhone 4 is a 20/20 Vision display if it is viewed from 10.5 inches or more. Unfortunately, a “20/20 Vision Display” doesn’t sound anywhere near as enticing as a “Retina Display” so marketing and science don’t see eye-to-eye on this…

Night Spring
Jul 28, 2012, 09:42 AM
Here's an excerpt from an article that explains it well.
A true “Retina Display” but not an actual Retina Display

Interesting article. What article is this? Is it avaiable online?

BTW, when you said, back at post #165, "Nobody in their right mind is going to hold a tablet a foot away from their face. The very notion of that is flat out stupid," I too, thought you meant people would hold it closer than that. So that statement wasn't very clear -- it could be taken either way.

The iGentleman
Jul 28, 2012, 09:57 AM
Interesting article. What article is this? Is it avaiable online?

BTW, when you said, back at post #165, "Nobody in their right mind is going to hold a tablet a foot away from their face. The very notion of that is flat out stupid," I too, thought you meant people would hold it closer than that. So that statement wasn't very clear -- it could be taken either way.

Sorry, I intended to include the link as I did earlier in this thread, but overlooked it this time. Anyway, here's the link lol. http://www.displaymate.com/iPad_ShootOut_1.htm

No, I meant holding a tablet 12 inches from your face is quite close, and a reasonable person doesn't do that.

nickchallis92
Jul 28, 2012, 10:05 AM
my Galaxy S3 has a retina display

:p:p

Night Spring
Jul 28, 2012, 10:13 AM
Sorry, I intended to include the link as I did earlier in this thread, but overlooked it this time. Anyway, here's the link lol. http://www.displaymate.com/iPad_ShootOut_1.htm

No, I meant holding a tablet 12 inches from your face is quite close, and a reasonable person doesn't do that.

Thank you for the link! And of course, it's quite obvious when you think about it that 12 inches is much too close to hold a tablet, but in the heat of an online discussion, it's quite easy to get confused. :p

yoyomamma
Jul 28, 2012, 12:50 PM
The problem with what you assert is if you say the Macbook was 13-15" (we'll use the middle number 14" for the sake of simplicity), then that's double the size of the Nexus 7. Now like you said, you would hold the Nexus 7 closer. However, since it's half the size of the Macbook, you could go half the distance and the effect would be the same. So if I'm normally 30" inches away from the Macbook, half of that would be 15" (in the 15-18" range of normal tablet viewing distance), and since the display is half the size, the proportions remain the same. In other words, there'd be no difference.

Wow are you dense. Is this guy for real?

The bigger the screen, the farther it's held away from the face. Just because a screen is double the size doesn't mean a person holds it twice as far from their face. And a 14" screen is not double the size of a Nexus 7 screen. It's much more than that lol.

freuding is right: Apple sets the normal distance of the iPhone at 10", the iPad at 15". They reduce the number of ppi the bigger the screen.

iPhone: 326 ppi
iPad: 264 ppi
rMBP: 220 ppi

And nobody said the normal distance of an iPad is 12". It's 15". Man, are you "aware"?

ChazUK
Jul 28, 2012, 02:12 PM
I take it yoyomamma is feudling on a second account. If so, boy are the Mods on the ball in banning dupe accounts.

Very swift action.

bitfactory
Jul 28, 2012, 02:34 PM
I tried one at a local Staples store and loved it. Yeah, the screen isn't as nice as the iPads we own, but I very much liked the way it felt in my hand, and the browser seemed to work well (which is primarily what I'll be suing on it).

I've looked all over for 16GB version, but no go here. I put my name in on Google Play to be notified when they're available again.

Anyway who doesn't think this tablet is worth the 199/249 investment is a fooling themselves. It'll fit in nicely with our tech here at home.

blackhand1001
Jul 28, 2012, 04:04 PM
The nexus 7 is very smooth. I don't know why Google put chrome by default on it though. The stock jellybean browser is way faster and smoother and reflows text which chrome doesn't. Chrome is a little laggy. The aosp jellybean browser is butter smooth as is dolphin and other third party browsers.

ChazUK
Jul 28, 2012, 04:25 PM
The nexus 7 is very smooth. I don't know why Google put chrome by default on it though. The stock jellybean browser is way faster and smoother and reflows text which chrome doesn't. Chrome is a little laggy. The aosp jellybean browser is butter smooth as is dolphin and other third party browsers.

This is a good alternative stock based browser.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.beansoft.browserplus

I prefer ICS Browser + over stock browser due to the extended thumb controls.

cwwilson
Jul 28, 2012, 06:40 PM
Any word on if Google is going to issue a fix for the screen flickering issue? That's one of the only quirks with mine.

nickchallis92
Jul 28, 2012, 09:59 PM
Why are people comparing the screens of these two machines when one costs about £250 more than the other?

the nexus 7 is a bargain and it is very commendable that google are actually making a tablet with such a small profit margin

blackhand1001
Jul 29, 2012, 01:06 AM
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5208/screenshot2012072902015.th.png (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/screenshot2012072902015.png/)

Paranoid Android is amazing on thing thing.

TheMacBookPro
Jul 29, 2012, 01:08 AM
I value people attempting to be objective, and not trying to carry out a one person propaganda campaign.

*snip*

This is a fact and is indisputable.

You are simply incredulous and therefore are not adding anything to this discussion other than derailing it.

I'd tell you exactly why you're completely wrong (again), but since it appears that you were banned I guess I don't have to bother. Which is good for my blood pressure.

bitfactory
Jul 29, 2012, 10:11 AM
Picked up a 16GB last night. Here are my first impressions from someone with zero Android experience:

1) Hardware. Good for a 249$ tablet. It's not 'Apple good', but IMO for the price it's very good. I like the soft back and it feels good in the hand. The only thing I'm not too fond of is the power btn/sound rocker location and feel, but it's not too bad.

The screen seems fine, and the speakers are passable.

2) Software. I was very excited about digging into Jelly Bean, but after the last 18 hours my excitement has waned a bit. It was cool playing with something different, but the OS is kind of a mess (coming from so much experience with iOS). I was stoked about the notifications, but it's really not that much better than iOS now. Chrome runs great on it, though, I'll definitely use it often. I was expecting Gmail to be unbelievably great, but it's just kinda meh.

3) Apps. The stock apps aren't nearly as nice as Apple's iOS stock apps, but they seem to function well enough. Most of the apps I d/l were similar in feel to the iOS apps I have experience with.

4) Experience. This tablet is fast. No doubt about it. I've experienced zero lag using this thing pretty hard. Very impressive for the money.

Loading up apps from the Play store is simple enough (I did receive an error or two while downloading a few apps).

PROS
• Fast
• Great value for the money
• Feels great to hold
• Calendar app is awesome on the tablet

CONS
•*Coming from iOS, I kind of feel Android is a mess. That feeling may subside as I use it more, but it's the same feeling I get when I jump on a Windows 7 box after using a Mac all day.
• Most stock icons and widgets are ugly.
• Seems to take a long time to charge compared to iPhone/iPad.

Overall I'm satisfied with the tablet - it's a value at $249. I'm not so gung-ho at dumping my iPhone anymore, but I appreciate some aspects of Android and I'm looking forward to integrating the N7 into my other tech.

dmk1974
Jul 29, 2012, 08:26 PM
PROS
• Fast
• Great value for the money
• Feels great to hold
• Calendar app is awesome on the tablet

CONS
•*Coming from iOS, I kind of feel Android is a mess. That feeling may subside as I use it more, but it's the same feeling I get when I jump on a Windows 7 box after using a Mac all day.
• Most stock icons and widgets are ugly.
• Seems to take a long time to charge compared to iPhone/iPad.

Overall I'm satisfied with the tablet - it's a value at $249. I'm not so gung-ho at dumping my iPhone anymore, but I appreciate some aspects of Android and I'm looking forward to integrating the N7 into my other tech.

Good review. I just bought one a few hours a go from the local sams club. It seems pretty decent, but different from the iPad as you pointed out. I am charging it up and going to set it up similar to the ipad for comparison...we will see how it is.

pjsewall
Jul 31, 2012, 10:12 AM
I am an iPhone 4s user and a big mac fan but I wanted to get a tablet for my wife who really doesn't care much about brand. I wanted the functionality of a Kindle Fire with hardware specs of something more, so I ordered the Nexus 7.

I think I'm going to return it and buy her an iPad 2 instead.

While the hardware is impressive (especially for $200), and the OS is much more responsive than I had expected (still not quite up to par with my 4s) it's the Google Play app store that really bummed me out.

I can't stand the fact that this device doesn't have access to the HBO Go app, or any of the other network apps (ABC Player, NBC Player, The CW app, etc.). To make matters worse, these networks have not optimized their mobile websites to display non-flash formatted video for Jellybean, apparently, because all I seem to get is "this is not a flash enabled device".

On my iPhone it's so easy to watch whatever I want, wherever I want. Be it through an app, or a mobile website. I am not going to purchase network TV shows from the Google Play store when most of the networks offer them for free (albeit with commercials) via their mobile applications.

I'm also not expecting my non-techy wife to start downloading .apk files and side loading apps or learn how to root.

The entire app shopping experience just drives me crazy. There is no way of knowing which apps have been optimized for jellybean until after you install them, or at least attempt to do so. This is nuts!!! I'm so used to the iTunes store that browsing Android's is practically impossible.

I wish this had worked out, because it's a sweet piece of hardware but with only 15 days to make a decision, I don't think I can afford to wait around.

kevinof
Jul 31, 2012, 11:32 AM
Good review. Can you explain what you mean by the piece below? I've seen this from many IOS users and just interested as to what exactly you mean.


•*Coming from iOS, I kind of feel Android is a mess. That feeling may subside as I use it more, but it's the same feeling I get when I jump on a Windows 7 box after using a Mac all day.

bitfactory
Aug 1, 2012, 05:49 PM
Good review. Can you explain what you mean by the piece below? I've seen this from many IOS users and just interested as to what exactly you mean.

Sure, while much more customizable than iOS in terms of the 'homescreen', adding widgets and other items ends up looking like a Linux skin gone bad. Perhaps it's the fact that almost all of the widgets are ugly as sin, or most of the icons were also terrible in terms of quality and sharpness, but it's just an unholy eyesore.

While I always wanted latitude in customizing iOS, I now begrudgingly understand why some things aren't allowed.

As I said, I like the tablet and most of Jelly Bean - but IMO iOS is still a much more 'cohesive' experience. The way I look at it is simple, when you start up an iPad it's all about the apps and consuming content. I feel like when I start up my N7, the apps are secondary to the system OS.

I still like it, though. It's a winner.

cynics
Aug 1, 2012, 06:01 PM
I am an iPhone 4s user and a big mac fan but I wanted to get a tablet for my wife who really doesn't care much about brand. I wanted the functionality of a Kindle Fire with hardware specs of something more, so I ordered the Nexus 7.

I think I'm going to return it and buy her an iPad 2 instead.

While the hardware is impressive (especially for $200), and the OS is much more responsive than I had expected (still not quite up to par with my 4s) it's the Google Play app store that really bummed me out.

I can't stand the fact that this device doesn't have access to the HBO Go app, or any of the other network apps (ABC Player, NBC Player, The CW app, etc.). To make matters worse, these networks have not optimized their mobile websites to display non-flash formatted video for Jellybean, apparently, because all I seem to get is "this is not a flash enabled device".

On my iPhone it's so easy to watch whatever I want, wherever I want. Be it through an app, or a mobile website. I am not going to purchase network TV shows from the Google Play store when most of the networks offer them for free (albeit with commercials) via their mobile applications.

I'm also not expecting my non-techy wife to start downloading .apk files and side loading apps or learn how to root.

The entire app shopping experience just drives me crazy. There is no way of knowing which apps have been optimized for jellybean until after you install them, or at least attempt to do so. This is nuts!!! I'm so used to the iTunes store that browsing Android's is practically impossible.

I wish this had worked out, because it's a sweet piece of hardware but with only 15 days to make a decision, I don't think I can afford to wait around.

HBO Go isn't available?

If not then its coming very soon. I had it on my Xoom (Nexus) when it had ICS, I haven't checked since JB though. Keep checking for it, I prefer it over the iOS version even though in the end it does the same thing...

Also watch xda developers. What happens is someone modifies the existing app to work. The same thing happened to Netflix on a tablet. Netflix didn't have a tablet version so the phone version was modified to work and it worked flawlessly. Finally Netflix released an official app which was identical to the modified version...

i0Nic
Aug 2, 2012, 04:02 AM
I just picked up a Nexus7. Can anyone recommend me some good apps or widgets to download?

b166er
Aug 2, 2012, 07:53 AM
Just got a nexus 7 yesterday. I really wanted to try android and this way I can do it without any contracts. I am very impressed so far. There are some things that the iPad clearly does better, and the app store is a lot better than google play, but the nexus has its perks for sure. The price point is almost unbelievable. I was expecting a lot less quality and was pleasantly surprised. The weight is very nice as well.

If apple does make an iPad mini, they have to sell it for $200. This is a major reason why the nexus is selling well. It's relatively cheap and the OS is actually very nice. This is my first experience with android so I guess I missed out on a lot of the issues it used to have.

lermal
Aug 2, 2012, 09:40 AM
PROS
• Fast
• Great value for the money
• Feels great to hold
• Calendar app is awesome on the tablet

CONS
•*Coming from iOS, I kind of feel Android is a mess. That feeling may subside as I use it more, but it's the same feeling I get when I jump on a Windows 7 box after using a Mac all day.
• Most stock icons and widgets are ugly.
• Seems to take a long time to charge compared to iPhone/iPad.

Overall I'm satisfied with the tablet - it's a value at $249. I'm not so gung-ho at dumping my iPhone anymore, but I appreciate some aspects of Android and I'm looking forward to integrating the N7 into my other tech.

Spot on review in my opinion. I picked up an 8GB version a week ago as I had no experience with Android and wanted to give it a chance.

AustinIllini
Aug 2, 2012, 09:43 AM
CONS
•*Coming from iOS, I kind of feel Android is a mess. That feeling may subside as I use it more, but it's the same feeling I get when I jump on a Windows 7 box after using a Mac all day.
• Most stock icons and widgets are ugly.
• Seems to take a long time to charge compared to iPhone/iPad.


I like your analysis. iOS is neat and tidy from the start. Android takes some effort. This was difficult for me at first, as it took some time to find the desired feel on my galaxy sIII. It took trying a few launcher options and getting a couple of third party widget apps (beautiful widgets is great) for me to really find the look I liked.

The icons are a little give and take. It's really easy to change those through the play store. GoLauncher Ex has a ton of configurable themes that could make your device look like an unlocked iPhone, also.

revelated
Aug 3, 2012, 03:40 AM
Wow. People saying Android is ugly. I have NO idea what people are looking at. Or perhaps they just can't be bothered to take 10 minutes out of their life. Or, I guess some just prefer the sea of app tiles.

And no, I'm not rooted. Perfect stock.

chrf097
Aug 3, 2012, 07:18 AM
Ordering my Nexus today.

I'm really excited. I was somewhat scare off from Android devices because other than the GNEX and the N7, you can't find a clean GOOD stock Android device. I would have gotten a GNEX instead of the iPhone if it wasn't 300$ at time of purchase.

Android itself as a really great strong OS. It's the crappy OEM skins and OEM/Carrier bloatware that kill it. I admit I do really love HTC's interface, but I want a pure, clean, stock tablet with no OEM garbage or crappy pre-installed apps that override the permissions of the stock apps. In my opinion, the Nexus 7 is the best Android tablet on the market period, because of that stock "the-way-it-was-meant-to-be" feel.

----------

Wow. People saying Android is ugly. I have NO idea what people are looking at. Or perhaps they just can't be bothered to take 10 minutes out of their life. Or, I guess some just prefer the sea of app tiles.

And no, I'm not rooted. Perfect stock.

http://phandroid.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/lg-lucid-4g-front.png

http://img.androidsis.com/wp-content/uploads/htc-sense-2.png

http://cellphonequick.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/HTC-ChaCha-Home-Screen.jpg

http://www.motorola.com/staticfiles/Consumers/Products/Mobile%20Phones/MOTOROLA-FLIPOUT-with-MOTOBLUR/_Images/_Staticfiles/B2C_FLIPOUT_Front_Home_lg.png

Android OEMs have gotten A LOT better at skinning their devices (Look at Sense 4.0 or Meizu) but there's still many ugly ones (LG, Samsung, Sony) and still scars of the past.

Many people don't see stock Android. They see these.

Night Spring
Aug 3, 2012, 10:46 AM
Wow. People saying Android is ugly. I have NO idea what people are looking at. Or perhaps they just can't be bothered to take 10 minutes out of their life. Or, I guess some just prefer the sea of app tiles.

And no, I'm not rooted. Perfect stock.

Personal preference, I guess, but I do prefer the iOS look. My iDevices are jailbroken, and I do have my clock and weather icons showing the real time and weather, but otherwise they look like a stock icon -- and that's how I like it. I don't like having widgets on my home screen. I also don't like the flat look of the Android icons. Your home screen may be set to your preference, but to me, it's just another example of an android screen that makes me take one look and say, "okay, no."

David Menzel
Aug 4, 2012, 08:35 AM
I have mixed feelings about the nexus 7. Yes ok, the size is very cool, it feels good and even Android's last version Jelly Bean runs better and has some nice features like Google Now but when you look at the apps (except Google's own apps) you will find only a few ones with a optimized resolution for the nexus 7 or any other Android tablet. Smartphone apps on the nexus 7 are more disappointing as iPhone apps on the iPad. If you use them in portrait mode then ok, but not if you turn them into landscape mode. It looks very bad.

There is no reason to buy an Android phone or tablet if you like Apple's design and passion for details, because Google's app are not that polished. Google's apps are very functional but really not that nice. For example Notes, Calendar or Reminders - I know it is a matter of taste but - Apple is really designing here and you will find so many details in their apps (like impressions of leather, their calendar app has the look of an real calendar, or the notepad).

I tested the nexus 7 for week and yes, it is a very good product, at least for 200$ (8GB), but as I said before, if you like Apple's design and already have bought tones of apps, then I would recommend to wait for the "iPad mini".

Just make a calculation of what apps you have to buy again and add it together with the price of your nexus 7 version (8GB/16GB) and then compare it with a 16GB iPad 2 or "the new iPad mini/nano/xxx"

ChazUK
Aug 4, 2012, 09:43 AM
Got my Nexus 7 delivered this afternoon and so far so good!

Initial setup was effortless as it synced all of my Android apps, Google mail, contacts, calendar, music and pictures in on the initial login - that was easy.

The 7" form factor will be far more manageable when reading in bed (I find my iPad 2 and Transformer Prime quite bulky for bedtime browsing) and the screen isn't at all bad, especially considering the price.

When it comes to entertainment, inadvertently, I believe Google and Asus have created one of the best casual gaming devices around. Another really pleasing thing to report is despite the constant cries of "frgmentation" in Android land, everything I've installed and used so far has worked flawlessly

Screenshots from games tested so far can be seen here: http://imageshack.us/g/10/airattackg.png/

The biggest gripe from me about the thing will be the lack of 3g data connectivity. Such a portable device would be perfect with mobile data. Still, the mobile hotspot feature and unlimited data on my Galaxy S III will do.

To finish, I like the Nexus 7. :cool:

revelated
Aug 4, 2012, 03:33 PM
Personal preference, I guess, but I do prefer the iOS look. My iDevices are jailbroken, and I do have my clock and weather icons showing the real time and weather, but otherwise they look like a stock icon -- and that's how I like it. I don't like having widgets on my home screen. I also don't like the flat look of the Android icons. Your home screen may be set to your preference, but to me, it's just another example of an android screen that makes me take one look and say, "okay, no."

What in the blue hell is the difference whether an icon on a 2D panel is "flat" or not? This isn't a 3DS, dude.

If you like the app tiles then so be it. But I think many people are on the same wavelength as you where your preference is rooted in minutiae to the point you're essentially applying a placebo effect on yourself.