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MacRumors
Jul 23, 2012, 11:00 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/24/13-inch-retina-macbook-pro-and-updated-imacs-reportedly-due-in-september-october/)


KGI Securities analyst Ming-Chi Kuo today released a significant new report outlining his estimates of Apple's product launch schedule for the second half of this year, pointing to all-new iPod touch and iPod nano models (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/23/apple-planning-all-new-ipod-touch-and-ipod-nano-for-september-launch/) as well as new iPhone and iPad mini models (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/23/tweaked-ipad-and-new-ipad-mini-said-to-closely-follow-next-generation-iphone-launch/) and tweaked internals for the full-size iPad.

Kuo's report also touches on the Mac side, reiterating his earlier claims (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/10/apples-13-inch-retina-macbook-pro-to-launch-before-october/) that Apple will be launching its 13-inch Retina MacBook Pro in that timeframe. He believes, however, that impact from the launch will initially be muted amid tight supplies and consumer budgets that will likely prioritize purchases of new iPhone and iPad mini models.We think consumers who initially planned to purchase the 13" MacBook Pro and Air will turn to the 13" Retina MacBook Pro instead because it has an attractive panel, its price is similar to MacBook Pro and it has a better balance between power consumption and form factor. However, as supply is limited due to panel and assembly yield rate issues, shipment of the 13" Retina MacBook Pro won't be able to satisfy demand. And we think consumers' budgets will transfer to new iOS products after Apple launches them, which suggests that overall MacBook shipments will not grow meaningfully on the 13" Retina MacBook Pro.While early 13-inch Retina MacBook Pro sales may be modest, Kuo does believes that with Retina displays clearly being the future of Mac notebooks the stage will be set for explosive growth heading into 2013.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/07/kgi_2h12_launch_schedule.jpg


As for the iMac, Kuo believes that new Ivy Bridge-based iMacs have been delayed by screen lamination issues, with Apple's supply chain status suggesting it will be a tight schedule to meet an end of September launch for the updated models.The chances of the new iMac debuting in September are slim. But, judging by the current supply chain situation, it could be rolled out by end-September. [...]

[Supply chain] shipments for Mac desktop models will be low due to inventory adjustment in July, and will see the most dramatic MoM rise in August as shipments for the new iMac begin.Several other sources have claimed that Apple will be targeting an October launch (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/03/more-claims-of-october-launch-for-updated-imac-models/) for updated iMacs, although there has been disagreement over whether the new models will include Retina displays, which are almost certainly the most highly-anticipated feature in the product's future. Kuo's report does not address whether or not he believes the feature will be included in the next revision or held for a later update.

Article Link: 13-Inch Retina MacBook Pro and Updated iMacs Reportedly Due in September-October (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/24/13-inch-retina-macbook-pro-and-updated-imacs-reportedly-due-in-september-october/)



DrJohnnyN
Jul 23, 2012, 11:01 PM
Can't wait!

Love my 15" rMBP. Will buy the 13" rMBP for my little sister entering college.

luqtotheman
Jul 23, 2012, 11:01 PM
Doubt it, don't see a 13 inch Retina happening anytime soon.

WatchTheThrone
Jul 23, 2012, 11:02 PM
Waiting on that iMac....but I think it'll all be released in October along with the new iPhone for a VERY good holiday season!!

KdParker
Jul 23, 2012, 11:02 PM
come on new iPhone....

Hakone
Jul 23, 2012, 11:03 PM
Looks like i may get a new toy soon!

Reaktor5
Jul 23, 2012, 11:04 PM
If Apple was going to do a 13-inch Retina MacBook Pro this year they would have announced it WWDC.

belltree
Jul 23, 2012, 11:04 PM
Hopefully "tweaked internals for the full-size iPad" will turn out to be a die shrink for the A5X inside the iPad3 to 32nm or possibly smaller. A decrease in heat and power consumption would be welcome.

wickerman1893
Jul 23, 2012, 11:05 PM
It looks like it's going to be a great fall for Apple!

blahbrah
Jul 23, 2012, 11:06 PM
If Apple was going to do a 13-inch Retina MacBook Pro this year they would have announced it WWDC.

Yeah I highly doubt Apple would so quickly cannabalize its own line. It makes more sense in the next Intel update for the MBA and MBP 13" to get rolled into one.

koobcamuk
Jul 23, 2012, 11:08 PM
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Some of the designs we have are ripe for innovation (iMac design) and others (iPod touch) can't really be much improved on.

Of course, this is completely subjective, but that's forums for you ;)

charlituna
Jul 23, 2012, 11:13 PM
and others (iPod touch) can't really be much improved on.

oh I don't know. Right now the iPod Touch is basically an iPhone that doesn't make phone calls. it wouldn't hurt for them to do something to give it a unique spot in this. Like say make it more of a 5-6 inch size.

as for the laptops and iMacs, right now the Retina is way higher priced and I can't see them putting it into a 13 inch just yet. Maybe in a year. With the iMacs they might do a single high end 27 inch model to kick things off but not all of them. Perhaps the Cinema Display as well.

Since the iMac tends to be more the family machine and with talk that the Cinema Display lineup might gain HDMI input and a larger size model they make sense for a holiday quarter release

Dammit Cubs
Jul 23, 2012, 11:14 PM
it makes no sense because during their presentation, they said that the retina macbook pro was a "sneek peak" into the future of computer. Which means its not ready.

So 2 months later, we are ready? Um no.

There will be no 13 inch retina.

dagamer34
Jul 23, 2012, 11:20 PM
I'm trying to figure out how yields of the 15" screens are better than the 13" screens when they are all cut from the same manufacturing line. We already know that the price premium for the screens isn't that much relatively speaking, so they must be offering it at a lower price and know they can't meet demand. A retina 13" does make sense for why it never got a resolution bump though, so that it's far easier to compare the two side by side (1280x800 and 2560x1600 are clear multiples of each other). I also believe that this means the Air will not see a retina display for a very long time due to battery life concerns.

Rocketman
Jul 23, 2012, 11:27 PM
Each of these reports are remarkably specific. Given the past accuracy he has access to accurate supply chain details.

This is also consistent with my own conclusion based on some things I hear from "unverifiable" third parties leading to my statement that the time to buy stock is July-August 2012.

This also is remarkable in the iPad update details and estimates in initial new display constraints. It didn't say but perhaps one could surmise the new iPad might also offer LTE.

Rocketman

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=14989375&postcount=56

http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/07/kgi_2h12_launch_schedule.jpg

lannisters4life
Jul 23, 2012, 11:30 PM
WTF are "screen lamination issues"? If this is true, the iMac would have some kind of new screen, because they're laminating the current ones fine enough. I'd bet on a 24" before a retina 21" or retina 27", but hey, love to be wrong.

sshhoott
Jul 23, 2012, 11:31 PM
"Across the year you’re going to see a lot more of this kind of innovation. We are just getting started.”

-Tim Cook

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/3290948/4076a8d0-15a9-484f-a71e-deb96f51b6dc_large_verge_medium_landscape.jpeg

edry.hilario
Jul 23, 2012, 11:34 PM
wheres the link to Kuo's article ?

MacinDoc
Jul 23, 2012, 11:42 PM
Each of these reports are remarkably specific. Given the past accuracy he has access to accurate supply chain details.

This is also consistent with my own conclusion based on some things I hear from "unverifiable" third parties leading to my statement that the time to buy stock is July-August 2012.

This also is remarkable in the iPad update details and estimates in initial new display constraints. It didn't say but perhaps one could surmise the new iPad might also offer LTE.

Rocketman

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=14989375&postcount=56

Image (http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/07/kgi_2h12_launch_schedule.jpg)
It's been a long time since a source with this good a track record stuck their neck out with so many very specific predictions reaching so many months ahead. I agree, it sounds like they have a lot of connections with suppliers.

WildCowboy
Jul 23, 2012, 11:44 PM
wheres the link to Kuo's article ?

It is not publicly available, and we're not authorized to release the whole thing.

12dylan34
Jul 23, 2012, 11:44 PM
It's good to just see a chart from a believable source like this. I would love for a new iMac to be released tomorrow or the next day, but the chart makes it a bit more bearable to wait, honestly. If only Apple would release charts like this themselves...

MacBandit
Jul 23, 2012, 11:45 PM
If they make a Retina 13" MBP I hope they put a real GPU in it. I really can't see how they couldn't since the on board GPU can barely drive the OS on the retina display so to do anything else I would think they would have to put a dedicated GPU in. If they do they'll finally have the 13" Pro that everyone has wanted for so long.

thejadedmonkey
Jul 23, 2012, 11:50 PM
I hope it has a real GPU and isn't ungodly expensive.

MacinDoc
Jul 23, 2012, 11:53 PM
WTF are "screen lamination issues"? If this is true, the iMac would have some kind of new screen, because they're laminating the current ones fine enough. I'd bet on a 24" before a retina 21" or retina 27", but hey, love to be wrong.
The retina display on the rMBP has no glass covering the display. There must be some protective layer laminated over the display, or it could be damaged too easily. Heck, I have a Samsung LCD TV that was damaged by foam toy that one of the kids threw a little too close to it. Prior to that, it was a nice TV, but unfortunately the protective covering was insufficient. It's quite possible that a protective covering that Apple is using for the display is not adhering well, or that the adhesive is causing discoloration, as was seen in some previous iMacs.

----------

I hope it has a real GPU and isn't ungodly expensive.
It will be a real GPU, but a portable one, as dictated by the form factor, unfortunately. Whether it's expensive will depend on your point of view - it will be more than the current iMac, but you won't be able to buy anything else like it for any price.

edry.hilario
Jul 23, 2012, 11:54 PM
The retina display on the rMBP has no glass covering the display. There must be some protective layer laminated over the display, or it could be damaged too easily. Heck, I have a Samsung LCD TV that was damaged by foam toy that one of the kids threw a little too close to it. Prior to that, it was a nice TV, but unfortunately the protective covering was insufficient. It's quite possible that a protective covering that Apple is using for the display is not adhering well, or that the adhesive is causing discoloration, as was seen in some previous iMacs.

----------


It will be a real GPU, but a portable one, as dictated by the form factor, unfortunately. Whether it's expensive will depend on your point of view - it will be more than the current iMac, but you won't be able to buy anything else like it for any price.

the retina macbook pro does have a glass protecting the screen remeber 60% less reflective.. what are you talking about ???

caligomez
Jul 23, 2012, 11:56 PM
I'm in the market for a spec'd out MBA 13".. Haven't pulled the trigger, waiting t see if this announcement is true. I would be kicking myself if a 13" rMBP came out a month after I got a $1,699 Air..

Which makes me think, why would Apple would be doing this? Cannibalizing its higher end 13" Airs, after just a couple of months of being released. Am I alone on this? From a consumer point of view, it just seems like I should wait on my decision after hearing this. Therefore, I don't believe this could be another one of Apple's "misinformation" campaigns.

strausd
Jul 24, 2012, 12:01 AM
When are new Mac Minis coming out?

billystlyes
Jul 24, 2012, 12:02 AM
I just want a new Mac mini with Ivy and USB 3.0. Is that too much to ask?

j1huynh
Jul 24, 2012, 12:10 AM
will it have 1280 by 800 as "best for retina" for the 13 rmbp or will it be something higher? Any thoughts?

MacinDoc
Jul 24, 2012, 12:17 AM
the retina macbook pro does have a glass protecting the screen remeber 60% less reflective.. what are you talking about ???
From Apple (http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/design/):
This Retina display doesn’t sit behind a layer of glass, it is the glass.
Which is not to say that there is no glass, but rather, that the glass is an integral part of the display, as opposed to previous models, which have a separate panel of glass that rests on top of the display.

Lamination issues could relate to something that is layered on top of or within the display that reduces the glare, as you have stated.

LYFK
Jul 24, 2012, 12:19 AM
I just ordered an ultimate 13" Air 10min ago, when I read this post and now I've cancelled the order. That's got to be a record of some sort.

I have to go back to school in Sep, and I'm not even sure how good a 1st gen 13" rMBP would be, but one thing's for sure, I can't handle rumor stress!

Analog Kid
Jul 24, 2012, 12:24 AM
Oh, how I want them to bring out an 11" design...

Rocketman
Jul 24, 2012, 12:25 AM
I anticipate a huge sucking sound as currencies from all over the world rush toward Cupertino and their offshore business centers. This is a huge range of very advanced updates. Not bad for a "consumer product company".

Rocketman

http://imgur.com/j0EFA

MacinDoc
Jul 24, 2012, 12:26 AM
When are new Mac Minis coming out?
These predictions are worryingly silent on the Mini. No reason why it couldn't come out at the same time as the next gen. 13" MBP. We may be nearing the end of the road for the Mini.

----------

I just want a new Mac mini with Ivy and USB 3.0. Is that too much to ask?
See above. For better or worse, Apple is moving to increasingly integrated products. The Mini doesn't fit that profile. Nor does the Mac Pro, for that matter, and I think that in spite of Apple's protestations, the Mini will be EOL in 2012 and the Mac Pro in 2014 (the latter getting one last upgrade in 2013).

Mike Valmike
Jul 24, 2012, 12:37 AM
Granted, this is a better source than DigiTimes, but it still seems really implausible that Apple would launch Mac hardware in the shadow of the spotlight on the new iPhone.

iMcLovin
Jul 24, 2012, 12:45 AM
a new ipad this year, doubtful...

When Tim Cook says "we have a lot to look forward to in 2012", and nearly nothing happens the first 8 months, he´s deliberately torturing his fans :cool:

Macman45
Jul 24, 2012, 12:52 AM
And still no Pro's? I guess the 2013 date looks pretty accurate now. I love my iMac, it's the main workhorse but it's max spec, and my logical upgrade is to a NEW Pro. I won't be moved either..Ivy-Bridge, yes that's pretty obvious, and I'm not surprised he doesn't commit himself to retina...How much would an equivalent retina 27" cost me?:eek:

kennycheng93
Jul 24, 2012, 01:04 AM
How about retina MBA?

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Reaktor5
Jul 24, 2012, 01:08 AM
How about retina MBA?

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

That would need a much more powerful GPU which would hurt the MBA's great battery life.

adam.mc
Jul 24, 2012, 01:19 AM
That's a lot of updates for a lot of devices in only a 1-2 month period. Wouldn't it make more sense for it to be spread out further? If only they could get some of this stuff out for "back to school" time. I know I'm ready to throw some money at them for a new iMac.... have been for nearly a year... hope to see something that'll make it worth the wait.

I'm not sold on retina yet either... I don't want to allocate that significant amount of my CPU and GPU to retina which would in turn decrease overall performance. I need that boost for design and rendering. In other words, I don't want to wait around all day while looking at a pretty screen with the loading wheel on it...

I'm ready now... not 2 months after my motion graphics classes start ;)

just needed to get my two cents in I guess

urbanlung
Jul 24, 2012, 01:24 AM
I don't care what the specs on the new iMac are as long as its really fashionable..

Mad Sativa
Jul 24, 2012, 01:29 AM
I'm sorry, but what does MoM mean?

"will see the most dramatic MoM rise in August as shipments for the new iMac begin"

sitsonthefence
Jul 24, 2012, 01:40 AM
I'm sorry, but what does MoM mean?

"will see the most dramatic MoM rise in August as shipments for the new iMac begin"

Month on month, I think

----------

And still no Pro's? I guess the 2013 date looks pretty accurate now. I love my iMac, it's the main workhorse but it's max spec, and my logical upgrade is to a NEW Pro. I won't be moved either..Ivy-Bridge, yes that's pretty obvious, and I'm not surprised he doesn't commit himself to retina...How much would an equivalent retina 27" cost me?:eek:

I just wonder how much processing power would be needed to match my current 27" iMac if the screen went retina...

Can't see it happening this year as a result..

mrbyu
Jul 24, 2012, 01:46 AM
Good for you guys who can buy a new Mac every two years, just because your "maxed out" previous MBP or Air is not enough anymore... :) I'm gonna stay with my 2011 MBA 13" until 2014-2015 at least, but I wish you will enjoy your new Retina Pros .-)

Virinprew
Jul 24, 2012, 01:50 AM
Apple goes all-in.

Mad Sativa
Jul 24, 2012, 01:55 AM
6 products in a 4-5 week time period? That doesn't sound very apple like. It sounds more like a base covering attempt.

HarryKNN21
Jul 24, 2012, 02:08 AM
If Apple again sacrifice the optic bay in favor of a full width logic board, installing a discrete GPU shouldn't have any difficulty.

I believe Apple would give 13" rMBP a discrete GPU, if not what's the difference between it and a MBA with Retina Display?

SchneiderMan
Jul 24, 2012, 02:09 AM
No chance. The 15-inch RMBP will be the one and only portable Retina Mac. I can see an iMac and even a Retina external display, but smaller MacBooks? That would be stupid of Apple.

macnerd93
Jul 24, 2012, 02:12 AM
I might have to try and buy an iMac before this apparent retina update. As much as I like the retina display it just seems a bit of style over actual function since the graphics chips in the rMBP where never designed to run a display with that many pixels. I can imagine it being a total waste of resources, which I could better use rendering in iMovie, FCP or Aperture.

Although personally I cant really see a rMBP 13'' since it would just take sales away directly from Apples new flagship product.

HarryKNN21
Jul 24, 2012, 02:16 AM
No chance. The 15-inch RMBP will be the one and only portable Retina Mac. I can see an iMac and even a Retina external display, but smaller MacBooks? That would be stupid of Apple.

In the end of the day all MacBook will require HD display in order to stay in the market, and Retina Display has more pixel than current full HD display. Thus what can prove your theory is true?

Lancer
Jul 24, 2012, 02:23 AM
iMac - finally some light at the end of the tunnel?

I can wait (keep saving) and get a new 27" iMac in Sept/Oct, I refuse to by the current 'old' one.

IPlayFair
Jul 24, 2012, 02:24 AM
Granted, this is a better source than DigiTimes, but it still seems really implausible that Apple would launch Mac hardware in the shadow of the spotlight on the new iPhone.

Why? You have people like us waiting for our favorite Mac and you have other people waiting for the next IPhone. As you know, desktops are not a priority of any of the computer makers. HP, for example, considered getting rid of its computer division this year. I can envisioned a scenario where Apple releases the Macs with the only commentary being a press release and its web site update; then release the IPhone with their usual fanfare. Perfectly plausible.

michaeljordan
Jul 24, 2012, 02:26 AM
I'm not sure what's the point of a retina macbook pro 13 inch, since the lighter and thinner form factor 13'' is already available in the form of a macbook air. That is already a pretty powerful computer for daily use. Unless people are in the market for a 13" with discrete graphics.

Lancer
Jul 24, 2012, 02:28 AM
I'm sure the 2012 iMac will NOT include a retina LCD.

The 'screen lamination issues' might be related to a Matte screen option?

Confuzzzed
Jul 24, 2012, 02:29 AM
There will be a lot of disappointed iMac people out there who had been anticipating a refresh this weekm, but this report seems specific and I guess it should allay fears that the iMac is going the way of the Mac Pro. October it is then (although it doesn't make much sense timing wise to release a new iMac so close to the release of the new iPhone)...

TheralSadurns
Jul 24, 2012, 02:37 AM
WTF are "screen lamination issues"? If this is true, the iMac would have some kind of new screen, because they're laminating the current ones fine enough. I'd bet on a 24" before a retina 21" or retina 27", but hey, love to be wrong.

Precisely. There has to be SOME change. Whether it is a move to retina or not. Because if they were using the exact same panel... why would they then be able to produce it for 2011 models but not 2012...

MentalFloss
Jul 24, 2012, 02:38 AM
These predictions are worryingly silent on the Mini. No reason why it couldn't come out at the same time as the next gen. 13" MBP. We may be nearing the end of the road for the Mini.

Which, sadly enough, is going to be the end of the road for me and OS X. I will not buy notebooks, as I have no need for a portable computing device other than the iPad, and I will not buy an iMac, as I don't see why I should buy a new display every time I buy a new Mac (and I like to have a choice when it comes to displays).

I don't even know which other platform I could move to when Apple decides that they don't want me as a customer anymore. I am certainly not going back to Windows. :mad:

Rideherhard
Jul 24, 2012, 02:41 AM
Apple won't release 2 new iPads in one calendar year, assuming that's what the modify iPad means. I even have a hard time believing a new smaller iPad model will release in the fall as it falls out of line with the iPad release in the new year and it'll make more sense for them to have the two released at the same time.

Reaktor5
Jul 24, 2012, 02:51 AM
Precisely. There has to be SOME change. Whether it is a move to retina or not. Because if they were using the exact same panel... why would they then be able to produce it for 2011 models but not 2012...

Most likely the same design as the rMBP to reduce glare. Doubt it's Retina this year.

the8thark
Jul 24, 2012, 02:55 AM
Another nice guess at then X Apple product will be released. It is just a guess though. It's always fun to guess. But I'll take it as fact when it comes from the mouth of Apple.

robertosh
Jul 24, 2012, 02:57 AM
i doubt this, so many big products for only two months... i think that this year i will see the new iphone and improved ipods and maybe appleTv. The ipad nano until the ipad 4 launch, with retina screen too. For the new retina imacs and 13" macbook i think that we have to wait until WWDC'13 at least.

Reaktor5
Jul 24, 2012, 02:58 AM
Another nice guess at then X Apple product will be released. It is just a guess though. It's always fun to guess. But I'll take it as fact when it comes from the mouth of Apple.

He's had a pretty good record of predicting things.

The only things that don't quite make sense to me is launching the new iPod touch (presumably with iOS 6) before the new iPhone and choosing not to release the 13-inch Retina MacBook Pro at WWDC.

maxwelltech
Jul 24, 2012, 02:59 AM
I just got my 13 MBP, so please don't release it this year. This update cycle is way too short.

Davidkoh
Jul 24, 2012, 03:01 AM
No chance. The 15-inch RMBP will be the one and only portable Retina Mac. I can see an iMac and even a Retina external display, but smaller MacBooks? That would be stupid of Apple.

You do realise that Apple laptops (apart from the retina) has crap resolutions? If they want to keep on selling the 13" Pro (or MBA) they will have to at least upgrade their resolutions to what the competitors similar models are sporting. It would be stupid of Apple to lose ground in the segment they are selling most laptops in.

I would say it's highly likely that Apple will be pushing out a 13" MBP with higher resolution this year. I also wonder if there will be any event for it, maybe if they push out the 13" Pro and other updated Macs at the same time.

party
Jul 24, 2012, 03:01 AM
My guess:

(early) Sept. music event - launch of new iPods (and hopefully new iTunes!)

Oct. Mac event - 13 inch MBPR, iMac, other Mac related updates (Mini/Pro anyone?)

Oct. iPhone event - :D:D:D

As for the iPads, since the release schedule is really really crowded, why not put it in January?

Jan. iPad event - new iPad 4th gen. and (possibly) iPad mini

AndyCarolan
Jul 24, 2012, 03:05 AM
Just suppose that the iMac update just refers to a redesigned model. It doesn't rule out the possibility of a spec bumped current model before the speculation of an October release

Jobsian
Jul 24, 2012, 03:10 AM
13" Retina MBP & New iPhone...
Image (http://www.halforums.com/xenforo/attachments/1520931-take_my_money_super-500x313-jpeg.6657/)

I laughed the first couple of times I saw this, but now all I see is a gormless brain-dead consumer with no self-respect and it fills me with unreasonable rage, in a way it's humiliating :p

captjon
Jul 24, 2012, 03:24 AM
It's good to just see a chart from a believable source like this. I would love for a new iMac to be released tomorrow or the next day, but the chart makes it a bit more bearable to wait, honestly. If only Apple would release charts like this themselves...

This is info from Apple. They don't do this kind of thing themselves, but they know there are lots of people expecting a new iMac with the new OS release this week. Tipping off an analyst before the release preempts complaints when it doesn't happen.

bushido
Jul 24, 2012, 03:28 AM
would the huge but necessary battery to power the retina display even fit into the 13 inch one?

weckart
Jul 24, 2012, 03:29 AM
I laughed the first couple of times I saw this, but now all I see is a gormless brain-dead consumer with no self-respect and it fills me with unreasonable rage, in a way it's humiliating :p

That really was the point of that comment in that episode of Futurama. For some reason it became adopted in its internet meme as some kind of positive consumer war cry. Now it has gone full circle back to its original sarcastic source.

Apple does not care why people behave in that way as long as they continue to behave in that way. Keep those sales graphs pointing upwards and the shareholders will stay happy.

Mr-Stabby
Jul 24, 2012, 03:32 AM
New iMac in September, October? So schools in the UK are forced to buy the old model before their new term starts in September, and these new models will be automatically out of date probably a few weeks later. Fantastic! Nice one Apple! I've got to buy 28 new iMacs that have got to last us quite a few years, and it annoys the hell out of me that we'll have to buy what are essentially outdated models. We're not made of money.

I can't believe Apple would go to the trouble of putting Mountain Lion on the old models, then a month later replace the model.

I feel more and more screwed over by Apple every year.

lmddawson
Jul 24, 2012, 03:38 AM
If all of that happens, I will be such a happy customer.
Not particularly sold on the iPad Mini happening, but everything else sounds pretty damn good!! :D

Lancer
Jul 24, 2012, 03:56 AM
I can't believe Apple would go to the trouble of putting Mountain Lion on the old models, then a month later replace the model.

It's the same deal for US schools.

PeterJP
Jul 24, 2012, 04:00 AM
Hi,

If they make a Retina 13" MBP I hope they put a real GPU in it. I really can't see how they couldn't since the on board GPU can barely drive the OS on the retina display(...)

You obviously haven't followed the news. Any issues of lag using only the HD4000 have been solved in the pre-releases of ML. And anyway, the 13" Retina screen is only 2560x1600. Macs with way slower GPUs have been known to run two 2560x1440 displays without lag. You are blinded by the fact that the HD4000 is an internal graphics chip and you haven't noticed that internal graphics have long gone way beyond the capabilities of what discrete graphics used to be capable of. Maybe you want to do folding@home with your rMBP 13" ? Do note that the name is folding@HOME, not "folding-on-the-move".


Apple won't release 2 new iPads in one calendar year, assuming that's what the modify iPad means.

No, I think they will silently modify the internals without telling anybody. Companies do that all the time: replace internals to improve margins. Reading how AppleInsider & MacRumors describe what the report says, I think the update will go unnoticed (except by forums like these :D)


New iMac in September, October? So schools in the UK are forced to buy the old model before their new term starts in September(...)

I don't think Apple cares much about UK schools. The UK seems to have a very special thing with schools and technology. It's the only country that I know of where computer companies suddenly started focusing their whole strategy around the educational market. I'm thinking about Acorn. I'm also thinking that Acorn could've been more successful if they hadn't taken that route.

Back to the topic: the 13" rMBP is scheduled to arrive right at the time when I will finally have the money for a decent laptop. As desirable as the 11" MBA is, if the 13" rMBP is as interesting as it sounds, the 13" it will be. As I calculated before, I'm expecting about €1600 for a model with 8GB RAM and 256GB SSD, which would be my choice.


Peter.

malloci
Jul 24, 2012, 04:05 AM
I understood moving iphone/ipod releases to later in the year. They allow Apple to capitalize on the holiday season a bit better. It also ensured that customers had recovered from their summer computer purchases enough to warrant purchasing the new ios devices. Release events are also clean, simple, and focused--a very apple thing to evolve to. Conflating a bunch of releases of a bunch of product lines ove the span of 2 months is very un-apple.

I also have a hard time believing that apple would also slap parents and students that hard in the face by releasing a whole new set of updates immediately following the back-to-school season. Moreover, i can't see apple willing to risk losing that cash by not updating the imac and mac mini lines prior to/during that season.

GekkePrutser
Jul 24, 2012, 04:07 AM
Which makes me think, why would Apple would be doing this? Cannibalizing its higher end 13" Airs, after just a couple of months of being released. Am I alone on this? From a consumer point of view, it just seems like I should wait on my decision after hearing this. Therefore, I don't believe this could be another one of Apple's "misinformation" campaigns.

So... They were cannibalizing their own cMBP 2012 the day they released it... Why would it stop them now?

AndyCarolan
Jul 24, 2012, 04:08 AM
http://i47.tinypic.com/5cizhk.jpg

My modified prediction ;) Purely speculation of course

Working from the top.

I dont feel that a refreshed 'new iPad' will be released just a few months into its life. This will be more likely to update with its normal 'yearly' update schedule. Aside from the likelyhood that the 'New iPad' is already selling well, the product has no issues that make a redesign urgent.

New design iMac. Yes, probably on the way but still several months away. Possibly well into the start of 2013. I suggest that along with the Mac Mini, the current design will get a minor spec bump to refresh the current line and keep it current until the new design (in the case of the iMac) is ready. This will also strengthen the launch of ML by including it with a hardware release (however minor).

iPad mini would make sense sooner rather than later to combat small tablets (Nexus 7 etc) ready for the holiday rush. So sometime in October or November makes sense.

iPhone 5. Not much needs to be said about that, we all pretty much know that its coming in the next few months and will launch with IOS6

13" Retina MBP. I cant see how this product would do anything other than take sales away from the 15" MBP and recently updated Air models. Possibly later in the year along with the iMac redesign? Not at all convinced about this product however. If Apple release a 13" Retina, my thoughts are that it will be the Air, not the MBP

New iPod Touch and Nano models would only make sense at the same time as the iPhone 5 or after, but not before. My feelings are that they will both not only take design cues from the iPhone 5 but in the case of the iPod will also come with iOS6 at launch. Perhaps the Nano will also feature some iOS6 integration due to its reported redesign.

Just my thoughts on the report :) - Will soon see how right/wrong I am of course :D

ixodes
Jul 24, 2012, 04:10 AM
Apple is nothing if not a marketing genius. By giving a hi-res IPS display a cute catchy name like "retina" then hyping it beyond anything they ever hyped, everyone feels like they must have it.

Retina... Enables Apple to elevate their pricing & lure the great majority of buyers into high end, expensive computers, when the laptop business in general is enjoying more value and competitive pricing than ever.

It's no wonder the Apple War Chest is overflowing with the cash that Apple needs to attack & destroy the competition by having products blocked, preventing them from competing in the market place.

GekkePrutser
Jul 24, 2012, 04:14 AM
These predictions are worryingly silent on the Mini. No reason why it couldn't come out at the same time as the next gen. 13" MBP. We may be nearing the end of the road for the Mini.

While I would have agreed with you a few years back (and I also love the mini, I've had almost every other generation), I'm not so worried now. The Ivy Bridge iMac is also still not out and it's certainly not the end of the road for that. Plus they just optimized the design and finally (since the ancient G4 days) brought the discrete GPU back as well as offering a quad-core mini! I don't see them stopping after gaining so much momentum. Even if sales are low, it offers an easy way into the Mac platform.

If they do discontinue it, however, I'm going to buy myself another one on the refurb store in a shot :)

iEdd
Jul 24, 2012, 04:15 AM
Image (http://i47.tinypic.com/5cizhk.jpg)

Since when is the Mac Mini not a Mac? :confused:

Regarding iMacs, has Apple done this before, i.e. do a spec bump, then 2-3 months later, release the proper, long-waited upgrade? I can't think of any reason why they'd do this now – if that was the plan, they could've done Ivy Bridge months ago, then had a 6-month gap until redesign. I sincerely hope there isn't a second 2012 upgrade that dicks everyone.

theSeb
Jul 24, 2012, 04:15 AM
I hope it has a real GPU and isn't ungodly expensive.

Mobile GPUs still exist in the real world and not on some fantasy alternate plane of existence.

AndyCarolan
Jul 24, 2012, 04:21 AM
Since when is the Mac Mini not a Mac? :confused:

Regarding iMacs, has Apple done this before, i.e. do a spec bump, then 2-3 months later, release the proper, long-waited upgrade? I can't think of any reason why they'd do this now – if that was the plan, they could've done Ivy Bridge months ago, then had a 6-month gap until redesign. I sincerely hope there isn't a second 2012 upgrade that dicks everyone.

I dont get your point about the Mac Mini not being a Mac?

I do agree about your point about there not being 2 iMac updates in 2012, that's why I think a redesign would be more likely well into 2013 with a refresh of the current model tomorrow along with ML.

gnasher729
Jul 24, 2012, 04:27 AM
If Apple was going to do a 13-inch Retina MacBook Pro this year they would have announced it WWDC.

When was the last time that Apple announced anything that wasn't available immediately? Doesn't make sense from Apple's history, doesn't make business sense, doesn't make any sense.

IPlayFair
Jul 24, 2012, 04:29 AM
New iMac in September, October? So schools in the UK are forced to buy the old model before their new term starts in September, and these new models will be automatically out of date probably a few weeks later. Fantastic! Nice one Apple! I've got to buy 28 new iMacs that have got to last us quite a few years, and it annoys the hell out of me that we'll have to buy what are essentially outdated models. We're not made of money.

I can't believe Apple would go to the trouble of putting Mountain Lion on the old models, then a month later replace the model.

I feel more and more screwed over by Apple every year.

I believe the adage, "you can please some of the people some of the time but you can't all the people all the time," is applicable here.

captjon
Jul 24, 2012, 04:38 AM
I don't think Apple cares much about UK schools. The UK seems to have a very special thing with schools and technology. It's the only country that I know of where computer companies suddenly started focusing their whole strategy around the educational market. I'm thinking about Acorn. I'm also thinking that Acorn could've been more successful if they hadn't taken that route.

It is more complicated than that. Remember Acorn teamed up with Apple to for their education programme. And ARM is doing OK these days. :)

As for schools, the current iMacs won't be out of date. Our design school (at a UK university) won't be replacing all the 2010 and 2011 iMacs they have... although given Ive studied there we should get a big discount.

mac1984user
Jul 24, 2012, 04:39 AM
My modified prediction

I think yours is more realistic than the one in the main article. I don't know about the July updates, but in terms of the iPhone 5/iPod releases, it makes no sense to me that they'd release a new iPod BEFORE an iPhone 5. When has that been the case since the first Touch was released? So, good call there...

AndyCarolan
Jul 24, 2012, 04:41 AM
I think yours is more realistic than the one in the main article. I don't know about the July updates, but in terms of the iPhone 5/iPod releases, it makes no sense to me that they'd release a new iPod BEFORE an iPhone 5. When has that been the case since the first Touch was released? So, good call there...

Well, its just all speculation... The July updates are simply formed from 'Hopeful Thinking' though lol

mac1984user
Jul 24, 2012, 05:03 AM
Well, its just all speculation... The July updates are simply formed from 'Hopeful Thinking' though lol

Exactly. But you were right to situate the iPhone and iPod releases at the same time. I looked at your chart and thought: ya, this could work! It would be nice to see iMacs a little earlier...maybe on Mountain Lion release day! Plus, the Mini would do well with a USB 3.0 port or two.

I'm actually struggling a bit, because my dad is about to lay out some cash on a new 13" MBP and I'm meant to help him install his solid state hard drive when I visit next month. I'm now wondering if the retina version will be out in a matter of a couple months instead of about 9-ish.

wizard
Jul 24, 2012, 05:04 AM
Hopefully "tweaked internals for the full-size iPad" will turn out to be a die shrink for the A5X inside the iPad3 to 32nm or possibly smaller. A decrease in heat and power consumption would be welcome.

They should just wait until February or whenever they have iPad 4 scheduled. I just don't see the wisdom in a tweak that might only last 4-5 months.

Besides that the power usage in the current iPad mostly goes to driving the display. Apple would need a new display or more efficient LEDs to significantly lower power usage.

Nightarchaon
Jul 24, 2012, 05:05 AM
WTF are "screen lamination issues"? If this is true, the iMac would have some kind of new screen, because they're laminating the current ones fine enough. I'd bet on a 24" before a retina 21" or retina 27", but hey, love to be wrong.

Just had my 7 month old iMacs screen replaced because of "lamination" issues causing dust to pool between the LCD matrix and backlight.

Hopefully they will fix this with the next gen

Jobsian
Jul 24, 2012, 05:08 AM
That really was the point of that comment in that episode of Futurama. For some reason it became adopted in its internet meme as some kind of positive consumer war cry. Now it has gone full circle back to its original sarcastic source.

Apple does not care why people behave in that way as long as they continue to behave in that way. Keep those sales graphs pointing upwards and the shareholders will stay happy.
True

AndyCarolan
Jul 24, 2012, 05:10 AM
Exactly. But you were right to situate the iPhone and iPod releases at the same time. I looked at your chart and thought: ya, this could work! It would be nice to see iMacs a little earlier...maybe on Mountain Lion release day! Plus, the Mini would do well with a USB 3.0 port or two.

I'm actually struggling a bit, because my dad is about to lay out some cash on a new 13" MBP and I'm meant to help him install his solid state hard drive when I visit next month. I'm now wondering if the retina version will be out in a matter of a couple months instead of about 9-ish.

lol, cheers - I think a 13" retina MBP would have made more sense than the 15 when it was launched. It would probably have been a better machine too because the GPU would likely not have been so stressed. Difficult to know what to do isnt it. Im ready to buy a 27" iMac but really dont know what to do... I need it for work :/

ElCidRo
Jul 24, 2012, 05:12 AM
I'm ready for the 13" rMBP - altough I just got my new 13 MBA

wizard
Jul 24, 2012, 05:15 AM
When are new Mac Minis coming out?

I was actually hoping this week but let's face it the rumor mill has been completely silent. Further I'm not so much hoping for a Mini as a replacement that is a bit more capable. I really hope the idea of an affordable desktop Apple machine isn't dead. Oh before anybody says anything the iMac isnt acceptable.

I know the Mini has seen declining sales but I attribute that to Apples inability to configure a marketable model.

Davidkoh
Jul 24, 2012, 05:16 AM
I believe we'll see the 13" rMBP before christmas, so I might wait for it as I think they will actually put a dedicated GPU in it to further separete it from the Air. Now with 28 nm GPUs they have started to deliver crazy power with moderate heat so I can see them fitting it in.

I might just get a 13" MBA to last me until October or whenever the 13" rMBP is released and just sell it then.

wizard
Jul 24, 2012, 05:18 AM
In fact I see this as asinine.

These predictions are worryingly silent on the Mini. No reason why it couldn't come out at the same time as the next gen. 13" MBP. We may be nearing the end of the road for the Mini.

----------


See above. For better or worse, Apple is moving to increasingly integrated products. The Mini doesn't fit that profile. Nor does the Mac Pro, for that matter, and I think that in spite of Apple's protestations, the Mini will be EOL in 2012 and the Mac Pro in 2014 (the latter getting one last upgrade in 2013).

PeterJP
Jul 24, 2012, 05:20 AM
Hi Andy,

iPad mini would make sense sooner rather than later to combat small tablets (Nexus 7 etc) ready for the holiday rush. So sometime in October or November makes sense.

iPhone 5. Not much needs to be said about that, we all pretty much know that its coming in the next few months and will launch with IOS6

It would make sense to launch these two together. One could be the announcement and the other would be the "one more thing" :D


13" Retina MBP. I cant see how this product would do anything other than take sales away from the 15" MBP and recently updated Air models. Possibly later in the year along with the iMac redesign? Not at all convinced about this product however. If Apple release a 13" Retina, my thoughts are that it will be the Air, not the MBP

Well, first of all, Apple can't release an rMBA because the Airs don't have enough space for a bigger battery and a fatter display.

Second, I agree that a 13" rMBP could take away sales from the 13" MBA. But it will definitely completely kill off the 13" MBP. Which is as Apple planned it: it's clear they did nothing except the absolute minimum to disguise that the 13" was a dying product that happened to bring in loads of cash. Exchange the motherboard for IVB ? Sure, now we're updating everything to IVB. we can do that at the same time. Update the display or anything else ? No way. Easy money while the engineering resources are focused on the real follow-up: the 13" rMBP.

I expect the 13" MBP without retina to continue existing until the sales numbers don't make it worthwhile anymore, which could be as early as Q1 2013. The product line will then be a 13" MBA starting at €1280 and the 13" rMBP starting from possibly €1600 (8GB/256GB). The 15" MBP will continue in retina and non-retina versions as it does at the moment.


Peter.

wizard
Jul 24, 2012, 05:22 AM
Really Apple flat out said the Mac Pro gets redesigned in 2013. Did somebody mis this?

And still no Pro's? I guess the 2013 date looks pretty accurate now. I love my iMac, it's the main workhorse but it's max spec, and my logical upgrade is to a NEW Pro. I won't be moved either..Ivy-Bridge, yes that's pretty obvious, and I'm not surprised he doesn't commit himself to retina...How much would an equivalent retina 27" cost me?:eek:

PeterJP
Jul 24, 2012, 05:22 AM
Hi,

By giving a hi-res IPS display a cute catchy name like "retina" then hyping it beyond anything they ever hyped(...)

Hype, as in: nobody needs it ?

This reminds me of: "Nobody will ever need more than 640KB !"

Or, when I was shopping for an additional hard drive for my first PC, I was wondering: "Hard drives of 750MB ? What on earth can you do with that ? What's next, a freaking GIGABYTE ?"

Today's hype is tomorrow's pedestrian.


Peter.

Baytriple
Jul 24, 2012, 05:26 AM
That's like saying nobody needs colour television. Black and white is sufficient.

jennyp
Jul 24, 2012, 05:30 AM
WTF are "screen lamination issues"? If this is true, the iMac would have some kind of new screen, because they're laminating the current ones fine enough...

Er, no! There is a huge ongoing issue with the current screen design causing "smudge marks":

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2300580?tstart=0

.. to name one out of dozens of discussions :(

iEdd
Jul 24, 2012, 05:31 AM
I dont get your point about the Mac Mini not being a Mac?

Mutually-exclusive colour-coded categories. The Mac Mini should be yellow, not its own class. :p

KnightWRX
Jul 24, 2012, 05:44 AM
Hype, as in: nobody needs it ?


That's not what hype means.

AndyCarolan
Jul 24, 2012, 05:48 AM
Mutually-exclusive colour-coded categories. The Mac Mini should be yellow, not its own class. :p

Ah right lolol

----------

Hi Andy,

It would make sense to launch these two together. One could be the announcement and the other would be the "one more thing" :D

Well, first of all, Apple can't release an rMBA because the Airs don't have enough space for a bigger battery and a fatter display.

Second, I agree that a 13" rMBP could take away sales from the 13" MBA. But it will definitely completely kill off the 13" MBP. Which is as Apple planned it: it's clear they did nothing except the absolute minimum to disguise that the 13" was a dying product that happened to bring in loads of cash. Exchange the motherboard for IVB ? Sure, now we're updating everything to IVB. we can do that at the same time. Update the display or anything else ? No way. Easy money while the engineering resources are focused on the real follow-up: the 13" rMBP.

I expect the 13" MBP without retina to continue existing until the sales numbers don't make it worthwhile anymore, which could be as early as Q1 2013. The product line will then be a 13" MBA starting at €1280 and the 13" rMBP starting from possibly €1600 (8GB/256GB). The 15" MBP will continue in retina and non-retina versions as it does at the moment.

Peter.

Good point about the Air and battery size/display... maybe as technology improves, they would consider putting a retina display in there when they dont need so much power/space. There does seem to be a blurring of the distinction between MBP and Air... I think eventually the two may merge anyway.

I guess eventually, the aim will be to have every product with a retina display. They have done it with the iPhone/iPod Touch, iPad and now the rMBP. Just the rest to migrate to the technology now... I guess it will come eventually though :)

Swordylove
Jul 24, 2012, 05:52 AM
So they ARE releasing new iPhone before new iMac! This is outrageous! :mad:

gatortpk
Jul 24, 2012, 05:58 AM
"Across the year you’re going to see a lot more of this kind of innovation. We are just getting started.”

-Tim Cook

Image (http://cdn3.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/3290948/4076a8d0-15a9-484f-a71e-deb96f51b6dc_large_verge_medium_landscape.jpeg)

This is exactly what I keep reminding myself. This one statement told me that this is the year of the Retina Displays, and that's just the beginning. CPU advancements have been rather predictable and consistent, but it's these other innovations (hardware and software) that I think are really going to set Apple even further apart from all the rest.

hobo.hopkins
Jul 24, 2012, 06:12 AM
Even if all of the predictions don't pan out, that would be an unbelievable quarter. I can't wait!

travistaylor
Jul 24, 2012, 06:12 AM
What is this source's actual track record? Specifically, what has he predicted in the past?

There is really no use speculating on the validity of this rumor without the answer to those questions.

Did a quick google search of KGI Research. They predicted the demise of the 17" MBP, and have made a few predictions around the new iPhone. They also thought a new MacBook would be released at WWDC between the MBA and MBP...that turned out to be sort of close to the truth.

That said, because of the incredible specificity in this article- I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this group was fed some specific information to test them for leaks. After all, Tim did say Apple is looking to regain much of Apple's secrecy.

Does anyone else remember the days (just a few years ago) when part leaks, supply chain leaks, etc... Were just hear-say and not always so reliable? To me, the turning point was when the Apple Keyboard was leaked in 2007. Since then, it's very common to see photos of new Apple products. We practically already know what the iPhone 5 will look like...

Just a hunch, but Apple could be casting out water in their boat to see where the leaky hole is.

ixodes
Jul 24, 2012, 06:22 AM
Doubt it, don't see a 13 inch Retina happening anytime soon.

Never underestimate Apples ability to upsell. It's the year of retina. Apple plans on you & everyone else, buying one to remain in Apples Good Graces.

You don't want a law suit on your hands.

Apple loves litigation... changing the world one user at a time :eek:

Logoman
Jul 24, 2012, 06:35 AM
Are the "iTV" rumors completely dead then?

Seems like no one has been interested in that stuff for a while and it's not included in that chart.

I am waiting for the iRadio - gonna be HUGE! :D

gatortpk
Jul 24, 2012, 06:55 AM
WTF are "screen lamination issues"? If this is true, the iMac would have some kind of new screen, because they're laminating the current ones fine enough. I'd bet on a 24" before a retina 21" or retina 27", but hey, love to be wrong.

I think they are talking about the same kind of lamination similar to PCB Lamination (correct me if I'm wrong). PCB lamination is making multi-layer (extra trace layers) printed circuit boards (PCBs). If LCD displays are having lamination issues when they haven't in the past, I would think it's the new Retina technology that's making the lamination difficult. Making much finer pixels (higher pixel density) requires much more than just making smaller pixels, there are other interesting electrical properties that occur with the higher pixel density.

I doubt Apple will start making 24" displays again. In the past it was 17", 20", and 24". If they made a 24" display, then they would have to make a larger display to differentiate from the 24", such as a 30" display. I don't think that's going to happen. I think 21" and 27" displays are pretty useful sizes.

nick_elt
Jul 24, 2012, 07:01 AM
13" Retina MBP & New iPhone...
Image (http://www.halforums.com/xenforo/attachments/1520931-take_my_money_super-500x313-jpeg.6657/)

Ha, cant be downvoted anymore,

----------

gonna be a busy sept if true

Mackan
Jul 24, 2012, 07:01 AM
13" Retina MBP & New iPhone...
Image (http://www.halforums.com/xenforo/attachments/1520931-take_my_money_super-500x313-jpeg.6657/)

I wondered how long I had to scroll before I saw this. ;)

inscrewtable
Jul 24, 2012, 07:12 AM
Some of the designs we have are ripe for innovation (iMac design) ...


I fail to see how the imac could be improved with regards to design. It's basically just a big ass wall to wall screen with a minimal curved back panel. What else could be done other than make it a bit thinner which would be meaningless. Perhaps remove the 'chin' and make it a bit thicker?

Unless you meant specs rather than 'design'

RightMACatU
Jul 24, 2012, 07:12 AM
It looks like it's going to be a great fall for Apple!

...and a great fall for my bank account :p

Rogifan
Jul 24, 2012, 07:16 AM
Why? You have people like us waiting for our favorite Mac and you have other people waiting for the next IPhone. As you know, desktops are not a priority of any of the computer makers. HP, for example, considered getting rid of its computer division this year. I can envisioned a scenario where Apple releases the Macs with the only commentary being a press release and its web site update; then release the IPhone with their usual fanfare. Perfectly plausible.

Everyone thought that's what they'd do at WWDC since WWDC is supposed to be all about software. But the first thing they talked about was updated Macs. I could see an event this fall specific to updated Macs/iPods (and maybe Apple TV). That's assuming we see redesigns or something completely new.

gatortpk
Jul 24, 2012, 07:17 AM
Good point about the Air and battery size/display... maybe as technology improves, they would consider putting a retina display in there when they dont need so much power/space. There does seem to be a blurring of the distinction between MBP and Air... I think eventually the two may merge anyway.

I guess eventually, the aim will be to have every product with a retina display. They have done it with the iPhone/iPod Touch, iPad and now the rMBP. Just the rest to migrate to the technology now... I guess it will come eventually though :)

I do think that the MacBook Air could get the Retina Display as soon as the IGZO display yield issues are worked out. IGZO displays can be thinner and require less power for backlighting.

Thunderhawks
Jul 24, 2012, 07:20 AM
When are new Mac Minis coming out?

Probably falling by the wayside.

Since you need a display anyway, why not get any of the MacBooks and be mobile?

Close enough in price , especially from refurb store.

Unless I strike it rich, I will never buy another desktop model.
The iMac is still beautiful, but for what I need to do I prefer mobility.

Being able to pick up my MBP and go anyplace with it just can't be beaten.

Even the much needed one connector dock will probably never be developed as Apple removes port after port to go totally wireless.

gnasher729
Jul 24, 2012, 07:22 AM
Everyone thought that's what they'd do at WWDC since WWDC is supposed to be all about software. But the first thing they talked about was updated Macs. I could see an event this fall specific to updated Macs/iPods (and maybe Apple TV). That's assuming we see redesigns or something completely new.

WWDC is not about software, but about software developers, and anything that software developers need to be aware of. They needed to be aware of Macs with HiDPI displays and the consequences, and about the fact that one such Mac is now for sale. They don't need to know about the second, and the third, and any further Macintosh with Retina display.


So... They were cannibalizing their own cMBP 2012 the day they released it... Why would it stop them now?

Golden rule of successful companies: If you don't cannibalise your own product, someone else will.


I expect the 13" MBP without retina to continue existing until the sales numbers don't make it worthwhile anymore, which could be as early as Q1 2013. The product line will then be a 13" MBA starting at €1280 and the 13" rMBP starting from possibly €1600 (8GB/256GB). The 15" MBP will continue in retina and non-retina versions as it does at the moment.

It would make sense to me to have identically looking products, but the Retina 13" MBP only selling with high-end specs (8 GB, faster processor, SSD) until enough Retina displays can be produced for the whole range. With the same price as the current 13" MBP, except that you can't buy the cheap models (4 GB, slow processor, disk drive) with the Retina display for a while.


You do realise that Apple laptops (apart from the retina) has crap resolutions? If they want to keep on selling the 13" Pro (or MBA) they will have to at least upgrade their resolutions to what the competitors similar models are sporting. It would be stupid of Apple to lose ground in the segment they are selling most laptops in.

Apple doesn't have to do anything. And Apple's customers look at what their computers can do for them, not what they are "sporting".


No chance. The 15-inch RMBP will be the one and only portable Retina Mac. I can see an iMac and even a Retina external display, but smaller MacBooks? That would be stupid of Apple.

Why? It would definitely make lots of people switch from Windows laptops to Macs, and make lots of 13" owners buy a new model earlier than planned.

Lancer
Jul 24, 2012, 07:24 AM
I doubt Apple will start making 24" displays again. In the past it was 17", 20", and 24". If they made a 24" display, then they would have to make a larger display to differentiate from the 24", such as a 30" display. I don't think that's going to happen. I think 21" and 27" displays are pretty useful sizes.

Actually I could see them upping the screen size of the iMac's in the next redesign. Maybe a 23-24 and a 29-30 for the top end, but there will need to give the GPU a serious boost, at least 2Gb for the 23" model more on the bigger screen for retina to work. But they also have to keep the price points about the same as they are now.

gatortpk
Jul 24, 2012, 07:48 AM
Actually I could see them upping the screen size of the iMac's in the next redesign. Maybe a 23-24 and a 29-30 for the top end, but there will need to give the GPU a serious boost, at least 2Gb for the 23" model more on the bigger screen for retina to work. But they also have to keep the price points about the same as they are now.

I hadn't thought of actually upping the resolution too. The reason I didn't think Apple would start making 24" displays because there would have to be a 30" display too, is because the pixel density at the current resolutions would get too low. (Back to the ~94 PPI of the old 1920x1200 24" iMac)

But if the resolutions were increased to something like 2880x1620 (16:9) or 2880x1800 (16:10) for the 30", it would keep about the same pixel density. Then to make the 30" a Retina display, it would be 5760x3600. That's 21 million pixels! That may be a stretch this year. Even the current 27" at Retina resolutions of 5120x2880 would have about 15 MP, that's somewhat more plausible.

Davidkoh
Jul 24, 2012, 08:14 AM
Apple doesn't have to do anything. And Apple's customers look at what their computers can do for them, not what they are "sporting".


If they want to keep on selling as much laptops they will eventually have to raise the resolutions. Now that 1920x1080 is starting to creep down into 13" machines from many other manufacturers they can't be using 1440x900 forever in the MBA (and 1280x800 in the 13" MBP).

Bubba Satori
Jul 24, 2012, 08:21 AM
I don't care what the specs on the new iMac are as long as its really fashionable..

I don't suppose anybody else gets it, but thanks for my laugh of the day. Perfect. :D

GorgonPhone
Jul 24, 2012, 08:25 AM
If they make a Retina 13" MBP I hope they put a real GPU in it. I really can't see how they couldn't since the on board GPU can barely drive the OS on the retina display so to do anything else I would think they would have to put a dedicated GPU in. If they do they'll finally have the 13" Pro that everyone has wanted for so long.

^^^ that will take the price well pat the $1200 sweet spot that makes the 13" their best seller

Bananaogre
Jul 24, 2012, 08:28 AM
The Back-to-school-campaign ends September 21 (Friday).
I don´t think they usually release new products in this period, or have they done so before?
I guess we will see something new towards the end of September, but not before.


Do you think Apple really will have three parallell 13'' models, or will the original MBP be phased out? Or will the retina display incorporated in the Air?

ristlin
Jul 24, 2012, 08:34 AM
NEW iMAC??!? YESSSS : )

GorgonPhone
Jul 24, 2012, 08:42 AM
That would need a much more powerful GPU which would hurt the MBA's great battery life.

no.. i think if the ipad3 can do it a 1" retina air is very possible.. in 3 to 5 years all apple products will be retina im sure

----------

I'm not sold on retina yet either... I don't want to allocate that significant amount of my CPU and GPU to retina which would in turn decrease overall performance. I need that boost for design and rendering. In other words, I don't want to wait around all day while looking at a pretty screen with the loading wheel on it...

^^ i was thinking just that... the screen takes up so much power that the overall machine power is not that high.. and the 15" retina suffers from frame drop and slow down. all buyers will be well served to get no less than 8 gigs of ram

----------

Good for you guys who can buy a new Mac every two years, just because your "maxed out" previous MBP or Air is not enough anymore... :) I'm gonna stay with my 2011 MBA 13" until 2014-2015 at least, but I wish you will enjoy your new Retina Pros .-)

I may sell mine next year if the 13" retina looks good:cool:

jvmxtra
Jul 24, 2012, 08:42 AM
Please tell apple that this is their time to concentrate on getting a great iphone out. If they drop the ball on that, I am going to android period.

GorgonPhone
Jul 24, 2012, 08:54 AM
I'm not sure what's the point of a retina macbook pro 13 inch, since the lighter and thinner form factor 13'' is already available in the form of a macbook air. That is already a pretty powerful computer for daily use. Unless people are in the market for a 13" with discrete graphics.

most MBP 13" users dont need discrete graphics if the crank their ram up to at least 8 gigs.. if you are doing super high end 3d rendering of video editing you will get at least a 15" and the MBP 13" with 8 gigs ram drives an external 21 inch cinema display perfectly..

Yes discrete is better but mainly for high end use.. I think apple will be better served by simply improving the power of the integrated graphics method.. in the 13"er

----------

Which, sadly enough, is going to be the end of the road for me and OS X. I will not buy notebooks, as I have no need for a portable computing device other than the iPad, and I will not buy an iMac, as I don't see why I should buy a new display every time I buy a new Mac (and I like to have a choice when it comes to displays).

I don't even know which other platform I could move to when Apple decides that they don't want me as a customer anymore. I am certainly not going back to Windows. :mad:

^^^i used to think like that and i had a mac mini for a year.. it was a great machine... BUT as a graphic designer if find that the versatility of a MBP makes it a better value.. I use my 13" MBP in dock mode using a henge dock http://hengedocks.com/ which enable my MBP to be 100% pug and play removable so i can take it with me every day and do work when i am away from home if i choose to.. at home it is connected to my stereo system and HD cinema display and mouse with full key board..

Johnf1285
Jul 24, 2012, 08:55 AM
I think MacBook Air would get "retina display" last - as in like 2 years from now last.

Seems like a more "pro" oriented feature. We have to remember what this computer replaced - the entry level white MacBook.

Just my thoughts - also, keeping that entry level model at the $999 ($949 for students), is very ideal from a marketing perspective.

As for the iMac, I hope that we get a surprise tomorrow !

Although waiting wouldn't be bad, because then that'll only point toward a redesign if they're having issues manufacturing a new display.

Sounds like the display will borrow technology for the rMBP and the iMac won't have a separate layer of glass, but instead something baked into the panel. Could be a good thing because as many of you know, opening that glass panel on the iMac and then closing it again results in annoying dust particles that are nearly impossible to get 100% rid of. It probably won't have "retina", but who knows.

Imagine if the panel had it's glass built into it, and suction cups were the only things needed to pop the panel out to get to the inside? No more fumbling with T8 bits, etc. That would be really nice - just a speculation though.

That would be nice if they crammed more pixels in, but not an obnoxious amount where the hardware takes a performance hit (jury is still out on that one too).

deconstruct60
Jul 24, 2012, 08:58 AM
Second, I agree that a 13" rMBP could take away sales from the 13" MBA. But it will definitely completely kill off the 13" MBP. Which is as Apple planned it: it's clear they did nothing except the absolute minimum to disguise that the 13" was a dying product that happened to bring in loads of cash.

But the MBA also had "the absolute minimum" changes. The MBA 13" and MBP 13" are now priced the same. If the MBP 13" sells twice as many units as the MBA 13" after the rMBP 13" comes out then there is a good chance the MBA 13" would be the model on death row.

The rMBP 13" would likely move into price points that the older MBA 13" used to occupy (above the MBP 13" ). If the weight of the rMBP 13" is trimmed to be within 0.5-0.8 lbs of the MBA 13" weight the difference wouldn't be that much. It would weight a bit more and not taper so dramatically but you'd get a retina display (and battery to drive it) in exchange. The MBA 13" could be retired.

If the sales numbers are skewed the other way then sure. Apple would like users to prefer no optical drives , soldered ram , and non mainstream storage formats. However, there are some upsides to standard 2.5" drives and being able to do memory upgrades with SO-DIMMs. Having to jump to a 15" MBP to get user upgradable memory is kind of ridiculous and certainly unnecessary.


The 15" MBP will continue in retina and non-retina versions as it does at the moment.

If it makes sense to continue the two 15" models over an extended term... it also makes sense to do the same with the 13" model for similar reasons.

A significant number of folks will trade the lower price and flexibility against the thinner, less flexible , but higher res display.

What gets squeeze here is the MBA since is also is less flexible, thinner and not so relatively high res display (relative to retina). Its sole upside is that it is just cheaper than the rMBP 13".

I think the MBP 13" classic to stick around until the broad model update. That way they can measure whether customers like the MBP 13" more than the MBA 13". They could simply later by just dropping all of these adjectives (except retina)

Macbook 11" , Macbook 13" , Macbook retina 13" , Macbook 15" , Macbook retina 15"

Frankly, much of the distinctions the "Air" and "pro" adjectives add have been muddled at that point. It is just the portable Macs ... Macbooks. They are all in the relatively expensive range ( greater than or equal to $999). The majority of them are Air-ish ( thin and relatively stripped of legacy standard ports )

Allenbf
Jul 24, 2012, 08:58 AM
Please tell apple that this is their time to concentrate on getting a great iphone out. If they drop the ball on that, I am going to android period.

I just left Tim a message, but from his voicemail greeting, I can only surmise he's busy.

:D

newbreed23
Jul 24, 2012, 08:59 AM
Knowing what I know now, I would have become a technology "analyst." I have never seen a job where you get paid so much to make guesses with no consequences for being wrong. Simply amazing!! Great gig.

Eidorian
Jul 24, 2012, 09:00 AM
All signs point to October being a good month to spend some money. Be it on a 13" or a 15" refurb.

High resolution displays are fun but are we actually going to get to the point where we can use them?

thejadedmonkey
Jul 24, 2012, 09:00 AM
Mobile GPUs still exist in the real world and not on some fantasy alternate plane of existence.

Ehh, sort-of. They exist in the Windows world, but in the Apple world, they only exist in 15" and 17" MBP's. I would love to buy a 13" with a discrete graphics card, but I have little hope.

Eidorian
Jul 24, 2012, 09:02 AM
Ehh, sort-of. They exist in the Windows world, but in the Apple world, they only exist in 15" and 17" MBP's. I would love to buy a 13" with a discrete graphics card, but I have little hope.Knowing Apple, the GPU is the upsell.

deconstruct60
Jul 24, 2012, 09:04 AM
Imagine if the panel had it's glass built into it, and suction cups were the only things needed to pop the panel out to get to the inside? No more fumbling with T8 bits, etc. That would be really nice - just a speculation though.


Imagine if Apple redesign the case so that didn't need suction cups at all. That perhaps the back of the iMac just unscrewed similar to a MBP and didn't need to suck the display off to get to internals.

If the panel is fused to the glass that suction cup method is rather dubious. The panel will be attached to the board beneath for electrical and video data connections. Pulled too far could cause damage. The glass was independent outside of the magnets holding it in place.

jvmxtra
Jul 24, 2012, 09:05 AM
I just left Tim a message, but from his voicemail greeting, I can only surmise he's busy.

:D

As long as you left the vmail? Consider this message being delivered to mr.cook.

----------

btw, I just got 2012 mba.. so this type of news doesn't sit well w/ me.. But at least laptop will always be just laptop so... but if they go retina iMac.. i am truly screwed.

theSeb
Jul 24, 2012, 09:07 AM
Ehh, sort-of. They exist in the Windows world, but in the Apple world, they only exist in 15" and 17" MBP's. I would love to buy a 13" with a discrete graphics card, but I have little hope.

I thought you were talking about the iMac and hoping for a desktop GPU, instead of mobile GPU and were referring to the mobile GPU in iMacs as imaginary. My apologies.

thejadedmonkey
Jul 24, 2012, 09:30 AM
I thought you were talking about the iMac and hoping for a desktop GPU, instead of mobile GPU and were referring to the mobile GPU in iMacs as imaginary. My apologies.

Oh no worries, this is about the iMac too ;)

theSeb
Jul 24, 2012, 09:41 AM
Oh no worries, this is about the iMac too ;)

A 680M would be pretty real. :cool:

Confuzzzed
Jul 24, 2012, 09:46 AM
Just on a tangent. There will be a price increase in € prices of macs (maybe only mac minis tomorrow?) with the new release, so if I was in the shoes of any of my continental cousins, I would look to splash the cash today and if you don't like what gets released tomorrow, you at least take advantage of last year's exchange rates. If on the other hand anything spectacular gets announced, you can always take your new computer back for a refund and get a new one...

Navdakilla
Jul 24, 2012, 09:47 AM
13" Retina MBP & New iPhone...
Image (http://www.halforums.com/xenforo/attachments/1520931-take_my_money_super-500x313-jpeg.6657/)

Agreed. I will get both haha, been holding off getting a 13" air for hopes they release a 13 Rmbp

Kavok
Jul 24, 2012, 09:50 AM
is a 15" MacBook Air. I wish Apple would make this happen. I don't care if it's Retina or not, just want the screen real estate.:D

beammeupscottie
Jul 24, 2012, 09:52 AM
I just got my 13 MBP, so please don't release it this year. This update cycle is way too short.

This is a very strange mentality, if you think about it. "Innovate until I buy something, and then stop innovation so I don't feel buyer's remorse." I think if we were honest, we have all felt this way at some time, but we also must admit that it is pretty foolish.

Rant aside, bring on the new iMacs, daddy needs a new desktop!

RBR2
Jul 24, 2012, 10:04 AM
The retina display on the rMBP has no glass covering the display. There must be some protective layer laminated over the display, or it could be damaged too easily. Heck, I have a Samsung LCD TV that was damaged by foam toy that one of the kids threw a little too close to it. Prior to that, it was a nice TV, but unfortunately the protective covering was insufficient. It's quite possible that a protective covering that Apple is using for the display is not adhering well, or that the adhesive is causing discoloration, as was seen in some previous iMacs.

----------


It will be a real GPU, but a portable one, as dictated by the form factor, unfortunately. Whether it's expensive will depend on your point of view - it will be more than the current iMac, but you won't be able to buy anything else like it for any price.

The LCD and glass are supposedly permanently laminated together(and hence the problem with the lamination). If there is a problem with one, you get to replace the whole affair. I am not certain if the aluminum lid is also permanently affixed to the LCD/glass part.

shamino
Jul 24, 2012, 10:10 AM
It seems to me like there will be a lot of redundancy in the product lineup if all of these rumors end up being true. I assume that some will not happen, or will happen alongside some lines being discontinued.

I'm thinking specifically about the small-touch-screen market. A 7" iPad mini, and an iPod Touch and an iPod nano with a large touch screen and iOS? Seems to me that something is going to have to go in order to make this work. It would be really bad to go back to their 80's pattern of selling lots of different models with only minor distinguishing features.
oh I don't know. Right now the iPod Touch is basically an iPhone that doesn't make phone calls. ...
It would be nice if that's what it was. The iPod Touch is thinner, has a smaller battery, a slower processor, less RAM, an inferior camera and no GPS. Aside from being thinner, all of the differences make it a significantly inferior product.

I'd love to see a redesigned iPod Touch that actually was an iPhone 4S, minus the phone-network-connectivity (filling up the vacated space with more battery, of course.) I don't know what such a device would cost, however.
... There does seem to be a blurring of the distinction between MBP and Air...
I guess eventually, the aim will be to have every product with a retina display. They have done it with the iPhone/iPod Touch, iPad and now the rMBP. Just the rest to migrate to the technology now... I guess it will come eventually though :)
It appears that the Air has taken the place of the Mac Book (and iBook before it). It is the low-cost model with the small footprint, light weight and missing several popular ports. I think this tradition will remain, with the MBP being the "power user" model and the Air being the "lightweight on the go" model.

As for Retina, I think it's inevitable that ultimately all Apple products will have high-DPI displays. It's just a matter of time, so Apple can recoup the R&D costs on the most profitable models before porting the feature elsewhere.
If LCD displays are having lamination issues when they haven't in the past, I would think it's the new Retina technology that's making the lamination difficult. Making much finer pixels (higher pixel density) requires much more than just making smaller pixels, there are other interesting electrical properties that occur with the higher pixel density.
Possibly, but the new displays have other features beyond high resolution. For instance, the display elements are affixed to the glass, instead of having a glass cover. That's probably more significant than simply packing in more pixels.

MagnusVonMagnum
Jul 24, 2012, 10:11 AM
Where's the Ivy Bridge (with USB 3.0) Mac Mini update? Its delay can't be due to screen lamination issues.... :rolleyes:

Tiger8
Jul 24, 2012, 10:17 AM
Hopefully "tweaked internals for the full-size iPad" will turn out to be a die shrink for the A5X inside the iPad3 to 32nm or possibly smaller. A decrease in heat and power consumption would be welcome.

I highly doubt Apple would do that, remember antenna-gate? Everyone thought Apple will modify the design second batch around, but they didn't.

eyebex
Jul 24, 2012, 10:28 AM
Is that some new product?

12dylan34
Jul 24, 2012, 10:32 AM
I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I'm strongly hoping against a retina display on the iMac, or at least the option for the older design. I'll be using it professionally and it's an entirely unnecessary feature that does nothing but hog system resources to me. It would suck to wait and the that be the only option....

GorgonPhone
Jul 24, 2012, 10:38 AM
Please tell apple that this is their time to concentrate on getting a great iphone out. If they drop the ball on that, I am going to android period.

^^^so true apple cannot afford to mess up this ii0hone 5 .. it has to be a smash hit and have plenty of wow.. cause they will not get another pass like they got with the 4S.. which was a very boring update.. yes the 4S is a great improvement to the 4 but now we are ready for the 5 and the 5 must be a new beast nothing like the 4..

If apple fails with the 54 then android will have their biggest opportunity ever..

keviig
Jul 24, 2012, 11:12 AM
I bought the 15" MBPr a while ago, and honestly, it struggles with basic stuff such as scrolling and OS animations... How on earth would a retina 13" MBP without a proper GPU handle it? Thing is, it won't. Having a retina screen in the 15" is pushing the graphics technology enough for now.

yascott
Jul 24, 2012, 11:23 AM
The iMac needn't have a Retina Display on the caliber (density) of the iPhone/iPad/rMBP, since it's viewed so much further away from one's eyes. They just need to bump the resolution up to fit within the "sliding scale"--so I think it's completely feasible for the next iteration to have one.

I do think that 11" and 13" notebooks with Retina resolutions won't be out until Haswell, though.

GekkePrutser
Jul 24, 2012, 11:31 AM
I bought the 15" MBPr a while ago, and honestly, it struggles with basic stuff such as scrolling and OS animations... How on earth would a retina 13" MBP without a proper GPU handle it? Thing is, it won't. Having a retina screen in the 15" is pushing the graphics technology enough for now.

The 15" retina has the same integrated GPU the 13" will have, it still has the HD4000 which it uses when not doing any video or 3D stuff. So 15" retina still runs in integrated mode most of the time if you're just doing desktop work.

So, the 13" if it will be integrated-only is going to have an even easier job due to the lower screen res (it will probably be 2560x1600) unless doing 3D work. The 13" was never meant for that anyway, this has always been the case.

The scrolling is also said to be better under ML and according to AnandTech is mainly caused by Safari's thread model rather than the GPU.

yascott
Jul 24, 2012, 11:33 AM
I bought the 15" MBPr a while ago, and honestly, it struggles with basic stuff such as scrolling and OS animations... How on earth would a retina 13" MBP without a proper GPU handle it? Thing is, it won't. Having a retina screen in the 15" is pushing the graphics technology enough for now.

I only find that it struggles when compared to, say, a New iPad or the iPhone 4S, which have buttery-smooth animations. It's still a monumental upgrade to my Core Duo MBP, and things will improve a bit when Mountain Lion is released. And don't forget, a 13" screen would have fewer pixels to push.

Regardless, you're probably on to something. Yes, performance is a concern with the Ivy Bridge IGP, but more than anything it will be heat and battery capacity concerns (in such miniscule spaces) that will push the smaller Retina notebooks back to Haswell.

DVD9
Jul 24, 2012, 12:00 PM
I'm not sure what's the point of a retina macbook pro 13 inch, since the lighter and thinner form factor 13'' is already available in the form of a macbook air. That is already a pretty powerful computer for daily use. Unless people are in the market for a 13" with discrete graphics.


13" Macbook Air with pixelated P.O.S. screen (http://www.laptopmag.com/review/laptops/apple-macbook-pro-with-retina-display.aspx).

Tezcatlipoca
Jul 24, 2012, 12:21 PM
September/October for the iMac?

Damn :(

I've already been waiting three months to finally make the switch from a Windows PC to a Mac. My PC is crap, and on its last legs...I don't want to have to wait another three months.

I had hoped the previous October rumours were BS, but the guy behind the new rumours has a reliable track record (unlike Digitimes), so maybe there is something to it...

jjmiv
Jul 24, 2012, 12:34 PM
does this mean the 13in retina display would get dedicated video? this is the one final feature that would probably steer me toward a mac, though i would miss the internal CD/DVD drive.

belltree
Jul 24, 2012, 12:44 PM
I highly doubt Apple would do that, remember antenna-gate? Everyone thought Apple will modify the design second batch around, but they didn't.

I fail how to see how, in any way, help to predict whether Apple would do a die shrink on their processor. If they the process can be shrunk they get more dies per wafer which saves them $$. If Apple can save $$ they will do it.

Randomoneh
Jul 24, 2012, 12:46 PM
"Retina display" doesn't mean you don't benefit from higher resolution. Not seeing pixel grid doesn't mean you don't benefit from higher resolution.

Antares
Jul 24, 2012, 01:00 PM
I'm sorry, but what does MoM mean?

Man or Muppet?

And I'm really unhappy about waiting until October for a new iMac. I have money waiting for one and its killing me. Sure, I don't "need" a new computer...but it sure would be nice. I'm running a core duo and its really age (speedwise). I update desktops every 5 to 6 years. So, I want the newest model to last that bit longer.

Vespa Alex
Jul 24, 2012, 01:02 PM
September/October for the iMac?

Damn :(

I've already been waiting three months to finally make the switch from a Windows PC to a Mac. My PC is crap, and on its last legs...I don't want to have to wait another three months.


I'm in exactly the same position, albeit with a slightly better pc.

As for what's likely to arrive... A 13" retina MacBook pro is a logical follow on from the 15" version. Very similar spec, just a bit smaller screen which should be easier to make and less stressed.

For the iMac... The longer wait suggests a change in form factor rather than just a spec bump. I think it's fairly easy to predict the tech spec with some accuracy - USB 3 and so on - which just leaves the screens. All-retina displays isn't going to happen as they need to keep the entry level models affordable, but a retina iMac as a flagship desktop could do well. If the casing is being redone then screen sizes could change too. Monitor prices have dropped a lot since the 21.5" went on sale so a 24" screen could hit the same price points then maybe a 30" monster?

PeterJP
Jul 24, 2012, 02:20 PM
Hello Deconstruct,

But the MBA also had "the absolute minimum" changes.

Yes, but when I see how Apple is evolving, the MBP design is "old" (despite being launched the same year as the MBA design). The MBP is more "standard", i.e. optical drive, replacable components. Apple is currently convinced that the way to go is fixing things in place because this allows them to improve in certain areas that pleases more customers (overall user experience: size, screen, battery life as compared to upgradability, which is of use to a very small percentage of the user base). I think with the current rMBP, they are saying: the MBA experiment worked well, if we give such a design very high end specs, it should please 99.99% of the high end users even without the capability to swap components.


The MBA 13" and MBP 13" are no priced the same. If the MBP 13" sells twice as many units as the MBA 13" after the rMBP 13" comes out then there is a good chance the MBA 13" would be the model on death row.

Of course, the sales figures after the launch of the rMBP 13" are still unknown. It's quite possible, as you suggest, that Apple takes a wait and see approach and axes the one that is least popular. But I wouldn't expect so because I consider Apple to be a company of principles. They've been known to take a gamble like this before and come out on top.

The rMBP 13" would likely move into price points that the older MBA 13" used to occupy (above the MBP 13" ). If the weight of the rMBP 13" is trimmed to be within 0.5-0.8 lbs of the MBA 13" weight the difference wouldn't be that much. It would weight a bit more and not taper so dramatically but you'd get a retina display (and battery to drive it) in exchange. The MBA 13" could be retired.

I don't see it that way. Both the MBP and MBA have exactly the same dimensions, except for the thickness. If the rMBP is as thick as the MBA at its thickest point, it would be about twice the volume and therefore much closer to the MBP in feel. Also, a tapered design is one that slips into a bag really easily, making it a quick use-everywhere computer. But that, of course, is just how I happen to see it. I am very prejudiced about the MBA because I want the 11" to use it as a kind of PDA replacement (I had a "PDA" once that wasn't much smaller: the Psion 7 aka the first NetBook).

Apple would like users to prefer no optical drives , soldered ram , and non mainstream storage formats. However, there are some upsides to standard 2.5" drives and being able to do memory upgrades with SO-DIMMs. Having to jump to a 15" MBP to get user upgradable memory is kind of ridiculous and certainly unnecessary.

That's not how I see it and I'm guessing that's not how Apple sees it. In my very humble opinion, the days of user upgradable computers are as numbered as the days of user upgradable cars. Sure, if you really insist, you can swap fuses and ignition yourself. But nobody does it. The same with current laptops: if you really really really insist, you can swap a few bits. But nobody does it. Might as well fix them and improve in areas that most users do appreciate: weight, size, battery life.


I think the MBP 13" classic to stick around until the broad model update. That way they can measure whether customers like the MBP 13" more than the MBA 13". They could simply later by just dropping all of these adjectives (except retina)

Macbook 11" , Macbook 13" , Macbook retina 13" , Macbook 15" , Macbook retina 15"

In both your scenario and in mine, Apple would have three ranges over five laptops: the old MBP and MBA + the rMBP. I think that's awkward. If I'm allowed to go way over the top with my predictions, I would say that all MBPs will be kicked out eventually and replaced with the rMBPs. To give consumers a choice, I would expect a 15" MBA. So we would get:

MBA: 11", 13", 15"
(r)MBP: 13", 15".

Let's say that's the end of next year, after Haswell.

KGI Securities, I'm available as a freelance analyst, if you're interested :D


Peter.

deconstruct60
Jul 24, 2012, 03:26 PM
I think with the current rMBP, they are saying: the MBA experiment worked well, if we give such a design very high end specs, it should please 99.99% of the high end users even without the capability to swap components.

The MBA experiment did not prove anything about the bulk of the Mac laptop buyers which is what is the critical issue. Not the upper 10% Mac laptop buyers.

The MBA exposed some flaws in Apple's minimalist initial design. One USB port and crippled I/O ( wifi only) is not enough. The current MBA has two USB 3.0 port (and two USB 2.0 ports immediately before) and Thunderbolt. The minimal at all costs is flawed.

Another example was when Apple prematurely nuked the FW ports off the immediate precusor to the MBP 13" design. Another bonehead move by Apple.

The MBA sales volume before the MBA 11" was relatively anemic. It regularly ranked below the Mac Pro in "top macs sold" on Apple's online store back when Apple let the Macs sales rankings be indirectly exposed. The lowest selling Mac model overall in terms of volume.


MBA is much higher now primarily because the 11" is the lowest price laptop Mac available. In that sense perhaps you're correct in that Apple may just "give" the MBA 13' the win not what but I doubt they would really want to gamble that way with the volume leader of the Mac laptop line-up.


The rMBP 13" isn't going to carry the water for "high volume Mac laptop" when it gets released. Its price is extremely likely to be much higher then either MBA or MBP 13".

I suspect that most MBA 13" seeking the "high price premium" 13" model will move up and select the rMBP 13" because they are the most similar. Those who are more price sensitive will buy a MBP 13" and hence drive volume sales.


It's quite possible, as you suggest, that Apple takes a wait and see approach and axes the one that is least popular. But I wouldn't expect so because I consider Apple to be a company of principles.


Yeah they have principles and one of those is selling what people want. This is a striaghtforward test they can conduct here. Lots of folks assume the answer is going to go the MBA 13". It may or may not.



I don't see it that way. Both the MBP and MBA have exactly the same dimensions, except for the thickness. If the rMBP is as thick as the MBA at its thickest point, it would be about twice the volume and therefore much closer to the MBP in feel.

"feel" isn't the primary issue.

Might as well fix them and improve in areas that most users do appreciate: weight, size, battery life.

That's the problem with a slimmed down rMBP 13" versus the MBA 13". It really doesn't put up a clear win on any of those. If there is a relatively small ( 0.5-0.8) weight difference and equal or better battery life with a much better processor ..... It loses. Its primary advantage is really just being cheaper.

The volume/size difference being overblown here. I think folks will trade off the taper for the better life and "twice as good" screen. The MBA taper is an extremely dubious sacrifice if that blocks you from a substantially better screen. A 07" rectangle is thin. Quite thin. It also wouldn't hurt to have two Thunderbolt ports also (instead of throwing that away too just for some "taper". Go back to 1 versus 2 USB socket evolution above for very similar reasons. )


Over time as the retina displays got cheaper the line-up could collapse some more.


In my very humble opinion, the days of user upgradable computers are as numbered as the days of user upgradable cars.

As long as Apple charges sky high mark-ups on memory and SSDs, this is a flawed analogy. It isn't so much folks want to crack open the computer and install these. it is much more so that they want better prices. The desire for better pricing doesn't go "old fashioned".

If Apple adjusted they BTO pricing to be more market driven, it wouldn't be an issue but until they do it is. The primary issue here is not "old" vs. "new" designs.

Over 2-3 more design iterations Apple may close out the classic MBP. I don't think prematurely killing them off is a winner for Apple. They can still pull substantial profits by iterating another iteration until get SoC Haswell (or follow on ) offerings that let them shrink the smaller rMBP designs and still get a discrete GPU in there.

umbilical
Jul 24, 2012, 04:08 PM
iMac with fixed ram and video and ssd? like macbook pro retina?
I dont think so... the idea of the imac is reemplace the macpro right? so I want an imac very upgradable ... 32gb ram , 1 o 2gb video, 1 ssd , no dvd drive, retina display

PeterJP
Jul 24, 2012, 04:16 PM
Hello deconstruct,

The MBA experiment did not prove anything about the bulk of the Mac laptop buyers which is what is the critical issue. Not the upper 10% Mac laptop buyers.

If 28% of the Mac notebook shipments (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/11/14/macbook_air_now_28_of_apples_notebook_shipments.html) by Q3 of 2011 (and probably growing) is "not the bulk of the Mac laptop buyers" then you're right. 28% is more than the upper 10% you're talking about.


The MBA exposed some flaws in Apple's minimalist initial design. One USB port and crippled I/O ( wifi only) is not enough. The current MBA has two USB 3.0 port (and two USB 2.0 ports immediately before) and Thunderbolt. The minimal at all costs is flawed.

It makes no sense to discuss the original MBA. While that machine may have angered you originally, there's no denying the current machines are both very capable, very good value for money and that they will last most users plenty of years before needing to upgrade. I'm saying "most users".


The MBA sales volume before the MBA 11" was relatively anemic.

... and way out of scope.

The rMBP 13" isn't going to carry the water for "high volume Mac laptop" when it gets released. Its price is extremely likely to be much higher then either MBA or MBP 13".

It would seem that, until you start comparing apples with apples.

current base MBA 13" (4GB+128GB SSD): 1280 euro
current MBP 13" similarly configured: 1480 euro

I expect the rMBP to be around 1600 euro for an 8/256 config, which is currently 1680 or 1880 for the MBA and MBP respectively.

If you're surprised by these numbers, compare a regular MBP 15" with 8GB and 256GB SSD (2500 euro) to a retina one (base model, 2300 euro). The retina models are cheaper than the standard MBP ones.

Sure, you don't have the choice of going for an optical drive and a hard drive. You also don't have the choice of a floppy anymore. The market is moving and Apple is a bit ahead, as usual.


The volume/size difference being overblown here. I think folks will trade off the taper for the better life and "twice as good" screen. The MBA taper is an extremely dubious sacrifice if that blocks you from a substantially better screen. A 07" rectangle is thin. Quite thin. It also wouldn't hurt to have two Thunderbolt ports also (instead of throwing that away too just for some "taper".

You think so. Plenty of others don't think so. That's what life's about: choice :)


As long as Apple charges sky high mark-ups on memory and SSDs, this is a flawed analogy.

I don't think you want to know how much markup you pay when you have your car maintained by a garage (let alone an official brand garage) as compared to doing it yourself. Apple starts looking really cheap if you want to go there :D


Peter.

Tiger8
Jul 24, 2012, 04:50 PM
I fail how to see how, in any way, help to predict whether Apple would do a die shrink on their processor. If they the process can be shrunk they get more dies per wafer which saves them $$. If Apple can save $$ they will do it.

I was talking about updating internals to address the heat issue. Apple rarely -if ever- update a product midcycle with 'new internals', they usually preserve the goodies for the next generation.

PadreQuevedo
Jul 24, 2012, 08:04 PM
the retina macbook pro does have a glass protecting the screen remeber 60% less reflective.. what are you talking about ???

Hilário mesmo....What are YOU talking about? rMBP does NOT have glass cover.

PadreQuevedo
Jul 24, 2012, 08:23 PM
Can someone tell me why the MacBook Air line has better resolution displays than the MacBook Pro line?

RetinaMacFreak
Jul 24, 2012, 08:32 PM
http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/07/kgi_2h12_launch_schedule.jpgI've read the comments other people have left about this source being close to the supply chain and being reliable but I can't see this happening. The chart shows the iPod being released right before the iPhone. Rumor has it that the iPod will also get a 4" screen. Why would they spill the beans on the next iPhone form factor by releasing an updated iPod with a larger screen before the iPhone? Same goes for the 13" MBP. They just released an updated model at WWDC; why would they go to the effort and expense of R&D updating processors and ports and then start producing the next model a few months later??! Tim Cook himself said "don't worry as we're working on something really great for later next year.". Granted, that was about the Mac Pro, but being that the Mac Pro, MBP, and the iMac saw little or no update, they would possibly be updated in a similar time frame, possibly with Intel Haswell processors scheduled for release later next year. In short, as an uneducated rumor mill worker, I could quite likely be very wrong but I seriously question the logic behind the iPod-before-iPhone release and the to-soon MBP update.:apple:

deconstruct60
Jul 24, 2012, 09:36 PM
It makes no sense to discuss the original MBA. While that machine may have angered you originally, there's no denying the current machines are both very capable, very good value for money and that they will last most users plenty of years before needing to upgrade. I'm saying "most users".

You brought up the MBA experiment. The original machine was the experiment. To now at this point wave off the findings is just misdirection. Similarly, I'm not angry at the MBA. It is what is it. Namely, the 13" format does not proven track record of a being a large seller versus other Macs.


It would seem that, until you start comparing apples with apples.

current base MBA 13" (4GB+128GB SSD): 1280 euro
current MBP 13" similarly configured: 1480 euro

I expect the rMBP to be around 1600 euro for an 8/256 config, which is currently 1680 or 1880 for the MBA and MBP respectively


This isn't Apples to Apples. This is the non-market pricing BTO practices of Apple in action. Apple charges an extra $200 to swap a 128 GB SSD for a 500GB HDD. If Price the 500GB HDD at $50 that means apple is charging $250 for a 128 GB SSD. Look around. Folk can easily get a 128GB SSD from 3rd parties for $110-150.

.

If you're surprised by these numbers, compare a regular MBP 15" with 8GB and 256GB SSD (2500 euro) to a retina one (base model, 2300 euro). The retina models are cheaper than the standard MBP ones.

I'm not surprised. These are both marketing gimmicks to make Apple's non standard SSDs look better. If you actually look at the overall SSD market Apple's 2.5" SSDs are horribly priced. That's the only relevant factor in these examples.


Sure, you don't have the choice of going for an optical drive and a hard drive. You also don't have the choice of a floppy anymore. The market is moving and Apple is a bit ahead, as usual.

Apple could swap the ODD in the MBP 13" for a discrete GPU. Frankly, that would be an advantage for a retina screen ( to have more GPU "horsepower to move pixels at a high rate). This isn't about "old legacy technologies" or new. Likewise the HDD can be replaced with a SSD in a standard shape. (either 2.5" enclosure of mSATA ). In short, there are alternatives.

Advocating for the taper (i.e., lack of volume) is quite unlike saying some technology was going to be replaced by new tech ( RW-CDROMs would replace floppy or USB would replace ADB. ). It is making an argument that nothingness replaces some technology. That is weak, just as the original MBA experiment has proven true.

Even the new rMBP 15" did not follow that path. There is a change in the mix of sockets, but dropping down to two would have been highly dubious.

thekev
Jul 24, 2012, 11:48 PM
If 28% of the Mac notebook shipments (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/11/14/macbook_air_now_28_of_apples_notebook_shipments.html) by Q3 of 2011 (and probably growing) is "not the bulk of the Mac laptop buyers" then you're right. 28% is more than the upper 10% you're talking about.


You should take note that until that refresh, they were pushing Core2duo ulv hardware in 2011. It was relatively weak for the year it was sold. The "my G3 still runs" crowd is going to be running a much earlier software generation so as to remain within the capabilities of the hardware. Beyond that you should keep in mind that these are estimates at best. Apple doesn't publish this kind of breakdown. Anyway Apple's marketing department is smarter than a very large number of consumers, and they realize that:p.



It makes no sense to discuss the original MBA. While that machine may have angered you originally, there's no denying the current machines are both very capable, very good value for money and that they will last most users plenty of years before needing to upgrade. I'm saying "most users".


Many years may also be an exaggeration. Apple has bragged about their recent OS adoption rates which go against the idea that most people don't update the OS. If staying with what is current is a major factor, I'd suggest more like 3 years, 4 if you push it. Applecare ends and you have a little wiggle room. A lot of people on here are eager to push the machine onto someone else for as much as possible if they feel it has an impending hardware failure due to long term wear (likely battery or ssd write cycles).



It would seem that, until you start comparing apples with apples.

current base MBA 13" (4GB+128GB SSD): 1280 euro
current MBP 13" similarly configured: 1480 euro

I expect the rMBP to be around 1600 euro for an 8/256 config, which is currently 1680 or 1880 for the MBA and MBP respectively.

If you're surprised by these numbers, compare a regular MBP 15" with 8GB and 256GB SSD (2500 euro) to a retina one (base model, 2300 euro). The retina models are cheaper than the standard MBP ones.

Sure, you don't have the choice of going for an optical drive and a hard drive. You also don't have the choice of a floppy anymore. The market is moving and Apple is a bit ahead, as usual.



They intentionally hold back the cheaper unit to try to drive you to their new thing. You're being conditioned to think it's a good deal as opposed to realizing that the lower model is actually a very bad deal. They wanted to justify a high minimum sale, so certain things were bundled with it. Note how the second thunderbolt port never made it into the cMBP design when they both use the same chip:rolleyes:. Some of the ultrabooks actually managed to put in discrete graphics. If Apple was set on integrated, AMD could have been a better option for a more balanced unit.





I don't think you want to know how much markup you pay when you have your car maintained by a garage (let alone an official brand garage) as compared to doing it yourself. Apple starts looking really cheap if you want to go there :D



Car maintenance is a much dirtier process that requires a lot of space and some remote knowledge of what you are doing. This is not the case with swapping in ram or a bigger drive. You make sure you have the right specs and the correct screwdriver. Those are the important things. Beyond that any idiot can do it. There are guides all over the internet and they basically say the same thing. Touch something metal first. Don't put your hands on raw circuitry. It does not take a huge array of tools or much finesse unless you're pulling out the logic board.


I'm not surprised. These are both marketing gimmicks to make Apple's non standard SSDs look better. If you actually look at the overall SSD market Apple's 2.5" SSDs are horribly priced. That's the only relevant factor in these examples.

I kind of expected a better base configuration this year. 128GB is starting to look ridiculous given the trends in the price of NAND.


Apple could swap the ODD in the MBP 13" for a discrete GPU. Frankly, that would be an advantage for a retina screen ( to have more GPU "horsepower to move pixels at a high rate). This isn't about "old legacy technologies" or new. Likewise the HDD can be replaced with a SSD in a standard shape. (either 2.5" enclosure of mSATA ). In short, there are alternatives.


The only reason they wouldn't add a discrete gpu is because they're cheap and extra parts cost money. When I look at it much of the time, I see their lower lines as being full of compromises and lacking in balance. They hit very specific details, but regardless of specs most of the design seems aimed at the lightest possible usage cases. Once again I've defeated Apple's love of dongle farms via a mini displayport to displayport cable thus eliminating the use of stupid dongles that fail constantly.

vikpt
Jul 25, 2012, 02:02 AM
13 in thinner, retina Macbook Pro! Yes please Apple!!!! :D October 2012 is perfect (as long as it doesn't cost very near the 15 rMBP price)

----------

I'm in the market for a spec'd out MBA 13".. Haven't pulled the trigger, waiting t see if this announcement is true. I would be kicking myself if a 13" rMBP came out a month after I got a $1,699 Air..

Which makes me think, why would Apple would be doing this? Cannibalizing its higher end 13" Airs, after just a couple of months of being released. Am I alone on this? From a consumer point of view, it just seems like I should wait on my decision after hearing this. Therefore, I don't believe this could be another one of Apple's "misinformation" campaigns.
Remember when there were rumors about 2 15 in MBP's coming out of WWDC 2012 (one non-retina and one retina) people were like "why would Apple release 2 15 in. in the same line?" Well, look what we have now...

PeterJP
Jul 25, 2012, 02:58 AM
Hello deconstruct,

You brought up the MBA experiment. The original machine was the experiment. To now at this point wave off the findings is just misdirection. Similarly, I'm not angry at the MBA. It is what is it. Namely, the 13" format does not proven track record of a being a large seller versus other Macs.

I was thinking of the whole MBA range as an experiment, actually. Not just the first version. Experiment as in: if we minimize size, making compromises on user upgradability, would it still sell ? The answer is clearly: yes, it sells quite well. It's not an MBP beater, but sales could've been marginal. I don't know how much % of MBA sales are 11" vs 13", but I'm guessing the 13" sales are double the 11" because most people prefer the real estate. But that's, of course, just a guess based mainly on forum input (and we all know how representative we are :D). Apple isn't giving any numbers so we can speculate as much as we want on this topic.


This isn't Apples to Apples. This is the non-market pricing BTO practices of Apple in action. Apple charges an extra $200 to swap a 128 GB SSD for a 500GB HDD. If Price the 500GB HDD at $50 that means apple is charging $250 for a 128 GB SSD. Look around. Folk can easily get a 128GB SSD from 3rd parties for $110-150.

You're right. Here's the pricing with cheap 3rd party components:

MBA 13" 4/128: €1280
MBP 13" 4/128 SSD: €1400.

rMBP 15" 8/256: €2300
MBP 15" 8/256 SSD: €2200.


Apple could swap the ODD in the MBP 13" for a discrete GPU. Frankly, that would be an advantage for a retina screen ( to have more GPU "horsepower to move pixels at a high rate). This isn't about "old legacy technologies" or new. Likewise the HDD can be replaced with a SSD in a standard shape. (either 2.5" enclosure of mSATA ). In short, there are alternatives.

1) The GPU is a complete non-issue. The HD4000 is 2.5x more powerful than the "discrete" GPU in my 2009 Mac Mini that is quite capable of running large displays (2560x1600 + 1920x1200) simultaneously. The obsession on these forums about a discrete GPU can only be explained by obsessing around the concept of a discrete GPU without any relation to actual performance numbers. Read up on the sudden disappearance of the Retina "lag issue" in the latest release of ML, while you're at it.

2) With the Retina macbooks being 1.8cm thick and 2.5" SSDs being about 1cm, it'll be hard to fit one in.

There are alternatives, true. But that's not the road that Apple seems to be taking.


Peter.

----------

Hi Key,

Many years may also be an exaggeration. Apple has bragged about their recent OS adoption rates which go against the idea that most people don't update the OS. If staying with what is current is a major factor, I'd suggest more like 3 years, 4 if you push it. Applecare ends and you have a little wiggle room.

I consider 4 years to be "many years" for a laptop. The longest I ever used a PC was 8 years and I upgraded it many times. Seen the fact that technology is performing beyond most people's needs these days, the upgrade cycle is a bit slower nowadays. I would not be surprised to find myself using a base 15" rMBP for 5 years without a problem.


Car maintenance is a much dirtier process that requires a lot of space and some remote knowledge of what you are doing. This is not the case with swapping in ram or a bigger drive.

I'll tell my mom and dad next time they complain about the speed of their computers. I think this statement is mainly indicative of the fact that you are computer literate.


Peter.

malexandria
Jul 25, 2012, 04:48 AM
A 15 inch Air could convince me to get rid of my Mac Pro. And I wouldn't mind a 24 inch display. I had a 27 iMac and didn't like it much - for numerous reasons including 27 was just too big. I don't trust Apple to Update the iMac I'm sure it'll be super thin and have no CD.

Manic Mouse
Jul 25, 2012, 05:26 AM
Hello deconstruct,

1) The GPU is a complete non-issue. The HD4000 is 2.5x more powerful than the "discrete" GPU in my 2009 Mac Mini that is quite capable of running large displays (2560x1600 + 1920x1200) simultaneously. The obsession on these forums about a discrete GPU can only be explained by obsessing around the concept of a discrete GPU without any relation to actual performance numbers. Read up on the sudden disappearance of the Retina "lag issue" in the latest release of ML, while you're at it.

2) With the Retina macbooks being 1.8cm thick and 2.5" SSDs being about 1cm, it'll be hard to fit one in.

There are alternatives, true. But that's not the road that Apple seems to be taking.


Actually a dedicated GPU is an issue for a couple of reasons.

Firstly: while the HD4000 is indeed capable of driving retina resolutions for standard activities (like web browsing) it will fall flat on it's face trying to run any kind of 3D application (games, or professional applications like autoCAD etc) at such a resolution. And since games feature so prominently in Apple's strategy now (just have a look at the Mac App Store) you would have a lot of miffed customers who are buying a "pro" laptop that can't run games (or professional applications) at it's native resolution.

Secondly: the Macbook Pro is exactly that, a "pro" machine. It needs to have at least some kind of benefit over an Air. At the moment that is the bigger HDD and optical drive - both of which disappear when you go retina. The MBA may remain non-retina for a while but Apple will most certainly move it to a retina display once it becomes standard in all laptops - at which point there is basically no reason to get a 13" pro over one without a dedicated GPU - the only difference between a 13" MBP and a 13" MBA will be a marginal difference in CPU speed.

Thirdly: Apple have made no secret of the fact that they are unhappy with the graphics capabilities of Intel's integrated graphics and a GPU can be used for many things in OSX (core animation, openCL etc). Given the option Apple would clearly rather use a dedicated GPU, but up until now there hasn't been much room for one (trust me - I opened my 13" MBP up to replace the optical drive with an SSD).

You say there isn't much room for one but there is. Eliminating the optical drive and using their custom SSD boards (which is what they do in the 15" rMBP) rather than an SSD in a 2.5" HDD enclosure will free MASSES of room inside the 13" MBP, in fact it will more than double the available area for components. Again trust me, I've rooted about inside my MBP - the optical drive and hard drive take up more room than the entire motherboard. Heck the optical drive alone takes up nearly 25% of the internal space.

EDIT: here's a picture of the current 13"MBP internals. Now remove the HDD and optical drive. Pretty sure there's room for a GPU *and* bigger battery:http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/FkpKKrqQlYsgNBq6.large

deconstruct60
Jul 25, 2012, 12:10 PM
I was thinking of the whole MBA range as an experiment, actually. Not just the first version. Experiment as in: if we minimize size, making compromises on user upgradability, would it still sell ? The answer is clearly: yes, it sells quite well.

That's largely not an experiment Apple is engaging in. One, experiments have end targets. The above alludes to an continuously ongoing process. An evolutionary development cycle is not an experiment.

Two the product category the MBA fits into existed before the MBA.

That is overall market forces and the response. Yes the "minimal" sells quite well. Apple just announced they sold more iPads last quarter than they will sell Macs all year. Apple already has a "solution" for the "draconian minimal" personal computer.

The "minimal" issue is a problem if really want to take on iPad level restrictions and compete head-to-head. That's a dubious move.


I don't know how much % of MBA sales are 11" vs 13", but I'm guessing the 13" sales are double the 11" because most people prefer the real estate.

that is an exceedingly dubious assumption since most buyers are constrained on price.

One, the average laptop personal computer selling price is far below the minimal Mac laptop price. The large majority of those coming to the Mac are price sensitive. Even those in the Mac market already are not price elastic.

Two, the lowly ( only one base config sold) MacBook would typically outsell all other Mac products except for the aggregated MBP 13/15/17 sales. The MBA which actually had two configs (variations on processor speed and RAM ) sold last, far behind the MacBook. Same size screen only the MacBook was several hundred dollars cheapers. This result is highly correlated with pretty firmly established economic principles that demand tends to go up as prices go down.


Magically when Apple killed the Macbook and coupled a $999 MBA 11" to the MBA aggregation it shot up to being a significant product volume sellers.

Your hypothesis seems to be that because there was now a 11" MBA more people found the 13" MBA more valuable. My hypothesis is that more people found the 11" MBA a better value.

You inference from that may be that the MBA 13" is sells 2:1 to the 11". Mine is the opposite (if not more. Probably more like 11" : 13" is more like 4:1 . It will get better now that the 13"'s price has come down some. But the price that is doing that. Not the screen size. )



But that's, of course, just a guess based mainly on forum input (and we all know how representative we are :D).

The parenthetical comment is correct. This forum is probably the worst place on the planet to do unbiased statistical sampling from. If basing your assumptions on that kind of data and observation then we're just going to be in fundamental disagreement about even what "experiment" means. Warping flawed data is not an experiment.



1) The GPU is a complete non-issue. The HD4000 is 2.5x more powerful than the "discrete" GPU in my 2009 Mac Mini that is quite capable of running large displays (2560x1600 + 1920x1200) simultaneously.


Not sure which alternative universe you are typing from. There were no Mac Mini 2009 models with discrete graphics. If you think that the Nvidia 9400M is discrete graphics you are deeply mistaken. To even imply it with quotation marks is dubious. It is integrated graphics plain and simple.

The issue isn't 2D pixel filling. It is a 3D graphics issue. Going forward it is an OpenCL and 3D graphics issue. The OpenCL of the HD4000 is weak relative to the current mobile discrete offerings. While the HD4000 3D graphics performance is marginally "good enough", a surefire way of making it worse is increase the number of pixels being manipulated. The frame rates fall substantially as number of pixels double.

If you are implying that I'm in some "Intel graphics are horrible camp just because they are integrated" then that is offbase. HD4000 graphics are largely good enough for most folks in mainstream contexts.


Read up on the sudden disappearance of the Retina "lag issue" in the latest release of ML, while you're at it.

The lag on Mission Control / Launch Pad animation? If so the OS disco effects aren't the core issue.



2) With the Retina macbooks being 1.8cm thick and 2.5" SSDs being about 1cm, it'll be hard to fit one in.

I was talking about the current MBP 13" form factor. There are trade-offs Apple could make to bring the SSD standard to it also if willing to shrink user storage sizes with higher $/GB.

The MBP 13" HDD + ODD component costs are probably higher than the smallest mSATA derivative Apple puts into the thinner models. Pull both from the MBP 13" and insert one of mSATA drives and the MBP 13" entry model price would be lower than the MBA 13" and a faster box. [There is an agenda that won't let that happen right now. ]

Assuming the derivative 13" also targets the 15" retina's target thickness, that is a MBA thickness.... so of course only the mSATA derivative fits. However, as I expressed before, that also means the new retina model is targeting the MBA 13" more than the MBP 13".



I'll tell my mom and dad next time they complain about the speed of their computers. I think this statement is mainly indicative of the fact that you are computer literate.

It isn't computer literacy as much as having done it multiple times.

The car maintenance analogy would be changing oil. Owners could do it themselves ( putting aside ecologically safely disposing of the old oil. ), but most don't. The ones that do it all the time typically bristle when folks imply it is some "highly trained mechanic with sophisticated tools" job.

deconstruct60
Jul 25, 2012, 12:41 PM
EDIT: here's a picture of the current 13"MBP internals. Now remove the HDD and optical drive. Pretty sure there's room for a GPU *and* bigger battery:Image (http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/FkpKKrqQlYsgNBq6.large)

There isn't if you remove the SO-DIMMs also. Going to soldered RAM actually occupies substantially more horizontal board space. That will deeply eat into the space the ODD and HDD just vacated.

The other issue is that the GPU and VRAM will also eat more power so any increased battery volume may be flitted away would the additional electronics.

If Apple kept the modified version the same thickness it can work. If Apple throw a substantial fraction of the classic MBP 13" case volume overboard by shrinking the high significantly then removing the ODD (or HDD) is more of a zero sum game. They threw away around as much as got "saved".

In the PowerBook era, the PB 12" was thicker than the 15". The current MBP 13" is only thick relative to the MBA 13". Not sure Apple will take that option, but it is possible. Over time the MBP and MBA would swap price positions. The MBA the old MBP 13" position and the MBP 13" the old MBA 13" positions. This period where they are the same would have just been a temporary transition point.

If Apple's primary target is the MBA 13" with the retina version then the GPU will probably loose out to the updated screen in terms of extra battery capacity allocated.

If overall laptop person computer market average prices continue to fall long term, Apple will probably move to just three models and all this "Air" versus "pro" will fade away.

belltree
Jul 25, 2012, 02:07 PM
I was talking about updating internals to address the heat issue. Apple rarely -if ever- update a product midcycle with 'new internals', they usually preserve the goodies for the next generation.

I was only speaking of a die shrink regarding the A5X processor nothing more.

Ivan Malagurski
Jul 25, 2012, 11:12 PM
...I really hope the iMac update will include a Retina display...

SG457
Jul 26, 2012, 12:15 AM
If the new iMac has...
1. 1TB HDD (256GB SSD Optional)
2. Ivy Bridge i7
3. Keep SuperDrive in iMac
4. Better graphic card
5. USB 3.0
6. iWork '12
then it will be a perfect iMac (for me :))

*How about a Retina iMac? :cool:
**Expectations too high? (maybe? :p)

koobcamuk
Jul 26, 2012, 03:09 AM
Unless you meant specs rather than 'design'

No, I mean design.

Come back to me in 5 years and tell me that the 2011 iMac couldn't be improved upon ;)

PeterJP
Jul 26, 2012, 08:30 AM
Hi,

Actually a dedicated GPU is an issue for a couple of reasons.

One of my pet peeves has usually been that most professionals don't work in industries that require 3D graphics. Indeed, at my most recent job, the two mac users used it for Word and PowerPoint.

But your points are good: if you get an expensive pro machine and it plays games just as badly as an Air, it's silly and it won't do. For the 13" MBP, this was the way that Apple did choose to do it. Now with a retina display, chances are that there will be a GPU. Don't get me wrong: I really wouldn't mind getting a good GPU included in the price. I do, however, think that for most people, it will just mean less battery time. I expect most users won't use the GPU for what it is meant and they won't install gfxCardStatus to disable it. Sad, but after seeing lots of non techies, I don't have confidence in the average capacities of computer users.

Secondly: the Macbook Pro is exactly that, a "pro" machine. It needs to have at least some kind of benefit over an Air.

CPU speed (as you mentioned), the capability to have more memory and SSD (16/768 max instead of 8/512). And the Retina display. About the latter: I'm excited about the way rendering is done for non-native resolutions because it allows me to work in Word with 2 pages side by side while still reducing the UI elements in size, without too much artefacts. So I consider that to be a pro feature.

But you are certainly right: now the Airs come in 8/512 configs, the step up to the pro is mainly the screen and (for the 15" rMBP) the GPU.


That is overall market forces and the response. Yes the "minimal" sells quite well. Apple just announced they sold more iPads last quarter than they will sell Macs all year. Apple already has a "solution" for the "draconian minimal" personal computer.

All I can say after a paragraph like that is that 1) I don't consider a 13" rMBP without a discrete GPU to be minimalist (though look at my answers above to see that I do see the advantages) and 2) you seem to disagree. We will see in a few months' time what Apple thinks.


Two, the lowly ( only one base config sold) MacBook would typically outsell all other Mac products except for the aggregated MBP 13/15/17 sales. The MBA which actually had two configs (variations on processor speed and RAM ) sold last, far behind the MacBook.(...)Magically when Apple killed the Macbook and coupled a $999 MBA 11" to the MBA aggregation it shot up to being a significant product volume sellers.

Your numbers seem to be more accurate than mine. Mind sharing the source ?

You inference from that may be that the MBA 13" is sells 2:1 to the 11". Mine is the opposite (if not more. Probably more like 11" : 13" is more like 4:1 . It will get better now that the 13"'s price has come down some. But the price that is doing that. Not the screen size. )

Yes, I think the 13" is selling more. It's the impression I have. The 13" looks more like a standard laptop which I think can be a deciding factor ("I like the 11 but the screen is so small...")



Not sure which alternative universe you are typing from. There were no Mac Mini 2009 models with discrete graphics. If you think that the Nvidia 9400M is discrete graphics you are deeply mistaken. To even imply it with quotation marks is dubious. It is integrated graphics plain and simple.

Thanks for pointing that out. I looked it up and I found out I was wrong.


It isn't computer literacy as much as having done it multiple times. (...) The car maintenance analogy would be changing oil. Owners could do it themselves , but most don't.

Exactly.


Peter.

SurferMan
Jul 26, 2012, 10:08 AM
Hopefully the 13" rMBP does come out and Apple has fixed the issues the 15" rMBP had and that I experienced but people said the new updates with ML have pretty much sorted it out. I'd get one to replace the 13" Pro which I was thinking of replacing with a new Air, but a 13" Pro that's thinner with the retina screen would be great as I travel a lot. 15" is too clumsy to use traveling on planes etc.

oldmetalhead
Jul 29, 2012, 07:39 PM
O.K., it's true, I really have a 10 year old iMac G4 and everything still works! ...... Very slowly ;) So, I was looking forward to updating to a maxed out, new Imac in hopes of having another long run. Sadly, it will have to be the 21.5 inch one, because the wife absolutely hates the big one. ("Why do you need to see your email as big as a t.v.?") Then my brother told me about this site, kind of wish he hadn't, because now there may an update in October. Don't care about Retina display, but really want the newest in processors, to hopefully hold off buying another computer for 5-10 years. So, any thoughts? Do I hope the dinosaur holds out another few months and suffer in slow motion computing? What if there isn't anything new by then, wait another few months based on rumors? Hmmm??

RBR2
Jul 29, 2012, 10:24 PM
O.K., it's true, I really have a 10 year old iMac G4 and everything still works! ...... Very slowly ;) So, I was looking forward to updating to a maxed out, new Imac in hopes of having another long run. Sadly, it will have to be the 21.5 inch one, because the wife absolutely hates the big one. ("Why do you need to see your email as big as a t.v.?") Then my brother told me about this site, kind of wish he hadn't, because now there may an update in October. Don't care about Retina display, but really want the newest in processors, to hopefully hold off buying another computer for 5-10 years. So, any thoughts? Do I hope the dinosaur holds out another few months and suffer in slow motion computing? What if there isn't anything new by then, wait another few months based on rumors? Hmmm??

I also am in need of moving from the PPC world to an Intel machine. I have the last of the G4s which has served me well until recently (it won't run anything beyond PS CS 4 or LR 2 so it's time). Like some other people I have doubts about Apple's hardware path in the future. Apple have been late bringing quite a few products to market which heightens such concerns.

At this stage, what have you got to lose by waiting a few months? If your machine keeps working, can you do enough of what you need to do on the old machine? If so, I say hang in there a little while longer.

If you have a need to change before then, that changes things. Do what you have to do. The Ivy Bridge processor would be nice to have, but the Sandy Bridge processor is going to be so much more powerful than what you have been using that there simply is no comparison. The Ivy Bridge processor, according to sources I have read, should be 10-15% faster than its Sandy Bridge counterpart and will have a slightly smaller thermal profile.

I don't think I can wait until Feb to see what is going to come along, but I am definitely waiting until October. I'll see what things look like then.

Sitting on the sidelines isn't easy.

Cheers