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sireShonBohn
Aug 1, 2012, 10:55 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is MC even less functional than CMD+TAB?

I've been trying to learn how to use MC but I just can't find a real use for it other than occasionally organizing spaces. I really wish it did more to find open applications and especially minimized windows.

Am I not using the right mindset when using MC? I see it as a way to switch between applications, but I find it barely fulfills this purpose. Is the purpose of MC really just to drag open windows around to different spaces? (And even that has annoying limitations.)

If there is one thing on my wish list for OSX it's better management of open applications. Even CMD+TAB would work better if when switching to an app it brought up all the minimized windows. This would let you quickly perform the app-expose' gesture to find your window.



dukebound85
Aug 1, 2012, 10:57 PM
I like it to select certain windows

I wish though, in using a dual monitor setup that I could drag windows from one to another ala 10.6

Also, which I had a grid for spaces ala 10.6

Honestly, 10.6 functionality with 10.5 expose would be ideal for me!

jav6454
Aug 1, 2012, 10:58 PM
For me, Mission Control is beyond idiotic. I like a feature that Leopard brought along, Spaces. I find it is the best feature in OS X when working with multiple applications. Lion made it more useful by just scrolling to that intended desktop space. However the ability to CMD+*insert number here* was also good when switching around.

Exposé! Ah my adored feature after Spaces...

iLog.Genius
Aug 1, 2012, 11:01 PM
For me, Mission Control is beyond idiotic. I like a feature that Leopard brought along, Spaces. I find it is the best feature in OS X when working with multiple applications. Lion made it more useful by just scrolling to that intended desktop space. However the ability to CMD+*insert number here* was also good when switching around.

Exposé! Ah my adored feature after Spaces...

This. Spaces/Expose in Leopard/Snow Leopard was perfect...and then they had to introduce Mission Control that streamlined it way too much. I'll still use it but I hate expanding grouped windows for one application...and I don't see my minimized windows unless I expose that one app. Oh well.

dukebound85
Aug 1, 2012, 11:02 PM
For me, Mission Control is beyond idiotic. I like a feature that Leopard brought along, Spaces. I find it is the best feature in OS X when working with multiple applications. Lion made it more useful by just scrolling to that intended desktop space. However the ability to CMD+*insert number here* was also good when switching around.

Exposé! Ah my adored feature after Spaces...

I also miss how in SL, that when in expose, clicking the application icon in the dock would bring up application expose. Used that ALL the time

jav6454
Aug 1, 2012, 11:04 PM
I also miss how in SL, that when in expose, clicking the application icon in the dock would bring up application expose. Used that ALL the time

YES!! I thought I was the only one! They ruined Expose/Spaces so much and how elegantly Snow Leopard handled Expose...

Small White Car
Aug 1, 2012, 11:22 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is MC even less functional than CMD+TAB?


I'm a little lost here. Since Command-Tab is the greatest thing ever invented, that's not a great yard stick. Yeah, it's less functional than Command Tab. What isn't? :D

Lvivske
Aug 1, 2012, 11:27 PM
mission control is one of the reasons i bought a mac. spaces was a great concept but it was crap until MC.

with full screen apps MC is pretty much a necessity. sure, cmd+tab does the same thing in theory but it looks like crap and doesn't include desktops. cmd+tab is only good for going back and forth between 2 spaces, not managing multiple ones.

jav6454
Aug 1, 2012, 11:29 PM
mission control is one of the reasons i bought a mac. spaces was a great concept but it was crap until MC.

with full screen apps MC is pretty much a necessity. sure, cmd+tab does the same thing in theory but it looks like crap and doesn't include desktops. cmd+tab is only good for going back and forth between 2 spaces, not managing multiple ones.

Clearly, you never used a Mac with Snow Leopard... also, its Mountain Lion, ML... not Mountain Cub, MC... Lol

boomboom2
Aug 1, 2012, 11:52 PM
I like it fine enough one one monitor (aka my MBA) but I like Windows' multi monitor management much better. I love the aerosnap feature. Hence I always build my own desktops :)

Krazy Bill
Aug 2, 2012, 12:13 AM
This. Spaces/Expose in Leopard/Snow Leopard was perfect..Agree. That's one reason why I'm still on SL.

I hate expanding grouped windows for one application...and I don't see my minimized windows unless I expose that one app. Oh well.You do know that ML allows you to "ungroup" all your windows now? (Unlike Lion). It's more like old Expose' except as you stated, all minimized windows go in the dock.

MC is too cluttered. And I can't wrap my head around the behavior logic of full screen apps. For some reason they get their own desktop. Apple should make them behave just like any other window and let me chose whether I want them up top in their own space or not. Then it would be like Old Space + Old Expose' but all in one screen.

I have 6 spaces defined in SL right now. It's such a joy to literally fly through dozens of windows at will without removing a hand from the keyboard.

concernedone
Aug 2, 2012, 12:18 AM
Clearly, you never used a Mac with Snow Leopard... also, its Mountain Lion, ML... not Mountain Cub, MC... Lol

Lol clearly he meant Mission Control (MC).

I think different people have different preferences. So I wish u can switch between MC or the old exposé. I personally like exposé- for I can actually see my minimized apps. Also more than anything, I would like for apple to fix all the bugs that's in ML and make ML more stable cuz right now it feels like a beta.

sireShonBohn
Aug 2, 2012, 12:19 AM
I like it fine enough one one monitor (aka my MBA) but I like Windows' multi monitor management much better. I love the aerosnap feature. Hence I always build my own desktops :)

I used aero-peek all the time on my other laptop. It was very useful that you could see previews of tabbed windows either in a minimized browser or Photoshop, Illustrator etc.

I like aero-snap but I didn't like Window's window management. It always felt like the ability to have a resizable window was pointless. (Learning what + did vs Maximize in Windows was hard... lol) In OSX I like that it's successfully more organic, especially in ye olden days of true expose'.

concernedone
Aug 2, 2012, 12:22 AM
Agree. That's one reason why I'm still on SL.

You do know that ML allows you to "ungroup" all your windows now? (Unlike Lion). It's more like old Expose' except as you stated, all minimized windows go in the dock.

MC is too cluttered. And I can't wrap my head around the behavior logic of full screen apps. For some reason they get their own desktop. Apple should make them behave just like any other window and let me chose whether I want them up top in their own space or not. Then it would be like Old Space + Old Expose' but all in one screen.

I have 6 spaces defined in SL right now. It's such a joy to literally fly through dozens of windows at will without removing a hand from the keyboard.


Also, I don't like that with full screen apps, if you have more than one monitor the other monitor is basically grayed out and useless.

sireShonBohn
Aug 2, 2012, 12:22 AM
I'm a little lost here. Since Command-Tab is the greatest thing ever invented, that's not a great yard stick. Yeah, it's less functional than Command Tab. What isn't? :D

CMD+TAB could still be better if it revealed minimized windows. For instance, press CMD+TAB and each app you highlight shows a little row of minimized windows under it, maybe you can click them or hit the arrow key. Or just reveal all windows when using CMD+TAB as it currently is. Then you can swipe down right after and use app-expose to locate the specific window.

bedifferent
Aug 2, 2012, 12:22 AM
I like it to select certain windows

I wish though, in using a dual monitor setup that I could drag windows from one to another ala 10.6

Also, which I had a grid for spaces ala 10.6

Honestly, 10.6 functionality with 10.5 expose would be ideal for me!

For 10.5/6 "Spaces", developer Stephen Sykes created "ReSpaceApp", which the makers of "TotalFinder", BinaryAge, bought and renamed to "TotalSpaces". It is in beta stage still, so it's free, however I have been helping Stephen debug and improve it for a while and it's prime. It brings everything that "Spaces" was back to 10.7/8. I cut and pasted the features below.

For an "All Windows" 'Exposé", simple uncheck "Group windows by application" in "Mission Control" and presto! You have everything that "Snow Leopard" offered (well, everything that is crucial). The only reason I finally moved up into 10.8 from 10.6 was due to these options and the necessity for iCloud (although I have iCloud functioning 100% in 10.6 with some work).

TotalSpaces (http://totalspaces.binaryage.com)

Manage your desktops
Display an overview of desktops and drag windows between them.
You can also organise your windows by dragging them from desktop to desktop, and putting them just where you want them.
If you can't see the window you need, just press the space bar, and all the windows will move to visible positions.
If you click on a window it will come to the front, and the space will activate - so it's a quick way to select the window you need to work with.

You can drag windows between desktops when they are exposed like this, and you can cancel this mode by pressing the space bar again.

When dragging a window from one desktop to another (and they are not in exposed mode), you choose to have the system place the window in the same place on the new desktop (as it was in the previous desktop), or to just leave it where you dropped it. This setting is in the General preferences pane.

Multi-monitors
TotalSpaces helps you if you have multiple monitors connected. The layout of your monitors is shown in the overview grid, and you can drag windows between them.
Because the monitor screens are shown together on your main display, you can easily drag windows between each of your monitors.

App assignments
Keep your apps where you want them. Assign apps to desktops.

Hotcorners
Trigger the overview grid just by moving your mouse.

Define your grid
Navigate left, right, up and down between your desktops.

Swipe between desktops
Moving around your grid has never been easier

concernedone
Aug 2, 2012, 12:27 AM
I used aero-peek all the time on my other laptop. It was very useful that you could see previews of tabbed windows either in a minimized browser or Photoshop, Illustrator etc.

I like aero-snap but I didn't like Window's window management. It always felt like the ability to have a resizable window was pointless. (Learning what + did vs Maximize in Windows was hard... lol) In OSX I like that it's successfully more organic, especially in ye olden days of true expose'.


Lol I'm the complete opposite. I LOVE I mean LOVE aero snap. It makes viewing 2 files at the same time a breeze Especially if u only have one monitor. Aero peek not so much bc the preview is so tiny but I like to use it with the windows media player to skip songs or rate songs <3. I just wish osx have jump list like windows 7. I get aero snap from better touch tools. All I need is my jump list where I can pin files to apps. Anyone know how I can get it on osx?

iLog.Genius
Aug 2, 2012, 12:31 AM
You do know that ML allows you to "ungroup" all your windows now? (Unlike Lion). It's more like old Expose' except as you stated, all minimized windows go in the dock.


I did not know that! But of course Apple goes half-assed and goes back to Leopard where everything is scattered (which is fine, beats having to expand grouped windows) but couldn't they at least go back to how Snow Leopard organized the windows?

But anyway, NO MORE STUPID GROUPED WINDOWS! :D

sireShonBohn
Aug 2, 2012, 12:34 AM
For 10.5/6 "Spaces", developer Stephen Sykes created "ReSpaceApp", which the makers of "TotalFinder", BinaryAge, bought and renamed to "TotalSpaces". It is in beta stage still, so it's free, however I have been helping Stephen debug and improve it for a while and it's prime. It brings everything that "Spaces" was back to 10.7/8. I cut and pasted the features below.

For an "All Windows" 'Exposé", simple uncheck "Group windows by application" in "Mission Control" and presto! You have everything that "Snow Leopard" offered (well, everything that is crucial). The only reason I finally moved up into 10.8 from 10.6 was due to these options and the necessity for iCloud (although I have iCloud functioning 100% in 10.6 with some work).

TotalSpaces (http://totalspaces.binaryage.com)

Manage your desktops
Display an overview of desktops and drag windows between them.
You can also organise your windows by dragging them from desktop to desktop, and putting them just where you want them.
If you can't see the window you need, just press the space bar, and all the windows will move to visible positions.
If you click on a window it will come to the front, and the space will activate - so it's a quick way to select the window you need to work with.

You can drag windows between desktops when they are exposed like this, and you can cancel this mode by pressing the space bar again.

When dragging a window from one desktop to another (and they are not in exposed mode), you choose to have the system place the window in the same place on the new desktop (as it was in the previous desktop), or to just leave it where you dropped it. This setting is in the General preferences pane.

Multi-monitors
TotalSpaces helps you if you have multiple monitors connected. The layout of your monitors is shown in the overview grid, and you can drag windows between them.
Because the monitor screens are shown together on your main display, you can easily drag windows between each of your monitors.

App assignments
Keep your apps where you want them. Assign apps to desktops.

Hotcorners
Trigger the overview grid just by moving your mouse.

Define your grid
Navigate left, right, up and down between your desktops.

Swipe between desktops
Moving around your grid has never been easier

That looks great, how does it run on Retina?

VTECaddict
Aug 2, 2012, 01:07 AM
I did not know that! But of course Apple goes half-assed and goes back to Leopard where everything is scattered (which is fine, beats having to expand grouped windows) but couldn't they at least go back to how Snow Leopard organized the windows?

But anyway, NO MORE STUPID GROUPED WINDOWS! :D

I like Mountain Lion's MC because it brings back Leopard-esque Exposé. I hated how all the windows were the same size in Snow Leopard's Exposé.

I also miss how in SL, that when in expose, clicking the application icon in the dock would bring up application expose. Used that ALL the time

4 finger swipe down while hovering over a dock icon will activate App Exposé for that app.

sireShonBohn
Aug 2, 2012, 01:44 AM
4 finger swipe down while hovering over a dock icon will activate App Exposé for that app.

App Expose' is cool, but it works differently depending on the app, I don't get that. I guess it's dependent on App makers to get it working right? Makes more sense if it's the case.

----------

Lol I'm the complete opposite. I LOVE I mean LOVE aero snap. It makes viewing 2 files at the same time a breeze Especially if u only have one monitor. Aero peek not so much bc the preview is so tiny but I like to use it with the windows media player to skip songs or rate songs <3. I just wish osx have jump list like windows 7. I get aero snap from better touch tools. All I need is my jump list where I can pin files to apps. Anyone know how I can get it on osx?

I don't know about pinning files but you could try a smart folder on the dock.

dukebound85
Aug 2, 2012, 01:48 AM
I like Mountain Lion's MC because it brings back Leopard-esque Exposé. I hated how all the windows were the same size in Snow Leopard's Exposé.



4 finger swipe down while hovering over a dock icon will activate App Exposé for that app.
There a quick way to do app expose without a trackpad?

RolandNights
Aug 2, 2012, 03:49 AM
This. Spaces/Expose in Leopard/Snow Leopard was perfect...and then they had to introduce Mission Control that streamlined it way too much. I'll still use it but I hate expanding grouped windows for one application...and I don't see my minimized windows unless I expose that one app. Oh well.

To prevent grouped windows in ML's MC, go to System Preferences -> Mission Control -> Uncheck "Group windows by application".

----------

There a quick way to do app expose without a trackpad?

You can customize a keyboard shortcut. Aside from that, if you have a Magic Mouse, you can two-finger double-tap on the app's icon in your dock to do exposè for that app.

----------

I like it fine enough one one monitor (aka my MBA) but I like Windows' multi monitor management much better. I love the aerosnap feature. Hence I always build my own desktops :)

I use BetterSnapTool (http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/bettersnaptool/id417375580?mt=12) in lieu of Aerosnap.

Arctix
Aug 2, 2012, 07:11 AM
There a quick way to do app expose without a trackpad?

Set up a hot corner for it (in Mission Control options).

Small White Car
Aug 2, 2012, 08:01 AM
CMD+TAB could still be better if it revealed minimized windows. For instance, press CMD+TAB and each app you highlight shows a little row of minimized windows under it, maybe you can click them or hit the arrow key. Or just reveal all windows when using CMD+TAB as it currently is. Then you can swipe down right after and use app-expose to locate the specific window.

Sorry, but this is sounding more mission-controlly by the word. Hands off Command-Tab!

I don't want it more visual. The entire point is to hit it and have it work faster than you can see it. When I switch between 2 programs I hit it so fast the computer doesn't even put the graphic on screen at all.

It's a much faster, easier version of Apple's current "use full-screen apps and swipe through them with 4 fingers." Yeah, that's a step backwards from what I have right now, and adding more images and mouse-clicks to Command Tab would similarly be a step back.

Gemütlichkeit
Aug 2, 2012, 08:05 AM
I use alt + tab and mission control daily.

3 finger swipe up to get an over head view of what windows are currently open.

I only use 2 full screen apps, mail and calendar.

dusk007
Aug 2, 2012, 08:12 AM
So with Totalspaces I could get the real thing back.

I switched to ML for the wrong reasons wouldn't do it again. I actually thought iCloud is more than it is. Quite disappointing.

i gave MC a change and it is every bit as bad and worse than I thought. What happened to multi-monitor support. I cannot see anything good about it.
Even full screen mode I don't get. It is useless with more monitors and as I have the dock always hidden all it does is save a bit on the top. Getting in and out is extremely slow. The full screen of Opera on F11 was more useful.

Particularly annoying is the swiping between spaces left and right. I want this as fast and fluid as when I use ctrl + 1,2,3,4. The way it is on a 2010 MBP is very jerky, way to slow and basically a completely useless annoying animation that you cannot turn off. Why can't Apple give people an option???

What is the harm in letting people choose what happens with the second screen on full screen mode? The point of this mode I don't get without any multimonitor support whatsoever.
Microsoft does better with Windows 8. A mobile convertible ultrabook that is touchpad and a decent notebook will be the way to go in future. At home it also actually offers proper support for using it with external monitors.

I don't see if those UI designers from Apple have any plan whatsoever. To me it all seems like the only goal they have is make it easy for former iOS users to get used to OSX. Launchpad is just useless, same as that idiotic tab preview mode in Safari. There is really no point for either of these features in a pure Desktop OS.

I agree that MC is basically useless and now it seems one has to pay 12 bucks to get the old features back instead of just offering us an option in how we want stuff to work. Never use MC now. I will install the TotalSpaces and hope it works well. Hopefully I get new animations as well or the option to just turn them off.

What I really don't get is that these GUI designers don't recognize that there are different users with different needs. If you tailor to noobs and beginners than at least offer options for the others. It would be nice if they'd simply make two or three GUI for those different kinds of users.
Than the noobs can have their dead slow fancy animations and the rest can have efficient short cuts, great features and speed.
Only Linux does it but in Linux you really need to be a crack and there is really little to no consistency. I wish there was just 2-3 GUIs that are clearly aimed at specific user types.

Lvivske
Aug 2, 2012, 12:24 PM
Clearly, you never used a Mac with Snow Leopard... also, its Mountain Lion, ML... not Mountain Cub, MC... Lol

a) yes, I have, and it was a horrible experience.

b) MC = Mission Control, doofus

----------

Also, I don't like that with full screen apps, if you have more than one monitor the other monitor is basically grayed out and useless.

yeah, that's terrible, I found that out the other day and was pissed

ixodes
Aug 2, 2012, 12:37 PM
This. Spaces/Expose in Leopard/Snow Leopard was perfect...and then they had to introduce Mission Control that streamlined it way too much.

Other than the new 2011 MBA & MBP's I bought for the sole purpose of trying out Lion and now Mountain Lion, my other MBP's MBA & Mac Pro are all centered on Snow Leopard. Spaces / Expose is such a terrific compliment to my workflow. It's one of the major reasons I have yet to migrate beyond 10.6.8.

Mission Control on the other hand is simply repulsive. I hate having icons all over the place. I've never been one to have icons littering my desktop. Not only that, one glance at Mission Control reminds me of iOS, a very discouraging reminder of what Apple is doing by gradually blending the two into what may be just one OS in the future.

Yet all that said, I do realize that it's Apple's to do with what they want, and obviously they want to attract newbie's, seniors, and other novice users that have iPads, iPhones or both, to buy Apple laptops.

This marketing strategy will most certainly produce a huge payoff for Apple.

Recently I was in one of my local Apple stores where all the MBA's & MBP's on display had Mission Control visible for all to see. The instant recognition as an iOS like interface is the way that Apple lures the customers in, to touch, play, and eventually buy them.

sireShonBohn
Aug 2, 2012, 01:07 PM
Sorry, but this is sounding more mission-controlly by the word. Hands off Command-Tab!

I don't want it more visual. The entire point is to hit it and have it work faster than you can see it. When I switch between 2 programs I hit it so fast the computer doesn't even put the graphic on screen at all.

It's a much faster, easier version of Apple's current "use full-screen apps and swipe through them with 4 fingers." Yeah, that's a step backwards from what I have right now, and adding more images and mouse-clicks to Command Tab would similarly be a step back.

Well, the way I envision it that behavior would basically be the same. Imagine it exactly how it is now except it just pulls up the minimized windows if you switch to an app with minimized windows... which could be annoying, but you'd get used to it. OR, imagine it works exactly how it works now, but as you tab through apps it just shows the windows open for each app in a row below the app icons. So you have the option to just select each app as normal or choose an open window. Maybe it could be CMD+TAB to bring up the menu, TAB over to the app, then hold CMD+SHIFT+TAB to cycle through an apps open windows. Admit it, that would be awesome!!

sireShonBohn
Aug 2, 2012, 01:17 PM
So with Totalspaces I could get the real thing back.

I switched to ML for the wrong reasons wouldn't do it again. I actually thought iCloud is more than it is. Quite disappointing.

i gave MC a change and it is every bit as bad and worse than I thought. What happened to multi-monitor support. I cannot see anything good about it.
Even full screen mode I don't get. It is useless with more monitors and as I have the dock always hidden all it does is save a bit on the top. Getting in and out is extremely slow. The full screen of Opera on F11 was more useful.


I love how full screen works on Mountain Lion. I agree that if you have two monitors it's strange that you can only put a fullscreen app on one of them, but it makes logical sense to do it that way when you realize that a fullscreen app is in it's own space, but not it's own desktop. On dual screens it's not as useful, for a single screen it's very useful.

Small White Car
Aug 2, 2012, 01:51 PM
Admit it, that would be awesome!!

I would hate this, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't or couldn't exist... Just that they should give it its own keyboard shortcut instead messing up something that already exists.

sireShonBohn
Aug 2, 2012, 02:22 PM
I would hate this, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't or couldn't exist... Just that they should give it its own keyboard shortcut instead messing up something that already exists.

Why would you hate it? If you click so fast you don't see it then you wouldn't see the open windows menu.

Look at this picture:


http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/shonbohn/CMDTAB-01.png


So basically, you press CMD+TAB for normal functionality, then when you've tabbed to the right app, continue holding CMD and add SHIFT+TAB to tab through that apps windows. Probably not Shift+TAB since that tab's backwards but maybe OPTION+TAB. It's doable also I think, thumb on CMD ring on TAB, then use index to hold OPTION.

Small White Car
Aug 2, 2012, 02:47 PM
Why would you hate it?

Because right now I can go CMD-Tab then CMD-~ and get the exact same functionality, but without having to add a third finger into the mix. (In a rather uncomfortable position, at that.)

And besides that 3rd finger slowing you down, I think switching to the program and then cycling through full-sized windows is a lot more useful than scrolling through smaller icons.

Your idea adds a finger and make the windows harder to see. That's 2 strikes and no net gain.

TonsOfFun420
Aug 2, 2012, 02:52 PM
I love mission control and use it all the time. I work from home most of the time, and I have multiple apps open, some with their own multiple windows. I am constantly monitoring things, instant messaging with people across the country, writing emails etc. Even with a 27" iMac the screen can get cluttered. I have it set so when I move my mouse the the bottom left corner of the screen it activates mission control, so with a simple move of my mouse I can see if I missed any IMs, check what windows and apps I have open, or retrieve that email I was working on that got buried behind everything else.

Krazy Bill
Aug 2, 2012, 03:43 PM
I don't see if those UI designers from Apple have any plan whatsoever. To me it all seems like the only goal they have is make it easy for former iOS users to get used to OSX.

Well, that is Apple's plan. You figured it out. :) Steve even said this is the whole purpose behind the "Back to the Mac" campaign (i.e., bring iOS features to OSX).

So we were all warned. I heeded that warning and stayed on SL. After playing with Lion's "Missing Control" I found new love with Spaces/Expose' in Snow Leopard. Such a joy to use on single/dual monitors. Dragging windows from Space to Space is elegant. Minimized windows appear dutifully at the bottom of Expose. And I can actually use the freaking arrow keys to select windows. :eek:

And the trackpad is just as easy in SL as it is in MC. A little freebie app called "Warp" lets me scroll through each space by simply sliding the mouse arrow to the edges of the screen. Or... to see all spaces I can simply move a mouse arrow to a hot corner and drag windows all over the place.

And of course, BetterTouchTool brings almost all the swiping functionality of Lion to Snow Leopard without having useless desktops consuming the top part of my display. (Screen space is at a premium on a 13" display).

Gemütlichkeit
Aug 2, 2012, 04:12 PM
Well, that is Apple's plan. You figured it out. :) Steve even said this is the whole purpose behind the "Back to the Mac" campaign (i.e., bring iOS features to OSX).

So we were all warned. I heeded that warning and stayed on SL. After playing with Lion's "Missing Control" I found new love with Spaces/Expose' in Snow Leopard. Such a joy to use on single/dual monitors. Dragging windows from Space to Space is elegant. Minimized windows appear dutifully at the bottom of Expose. And I can actually use the freaking arrow keys to select windows. :eek:

And the trackpad is just as easy in SL as it is in MC. A little freebie app called "Warp" lets me scroll through each space by simply sliding the mouse arrow to the edges of the screen. Or... to see all spaces I can simply move a mouse arrow to a hot corner and drag windows all over the place.

And of course, BetterTouchTool brings almost all the swiping functionality of Lion to Snow Leopard without having useless desktops consuming the top part of my display. (Screen space is at a premium on a 13" display).

Well said. It comes down to getting used to it and once you do you can't see yourself without it. I thought Mission Control was dumb at first and just a gimmick to look more like iOS but after using it for a bit, I ditched my applications folder stack on the dock for the 4 finger pinch method.

All of this sums up the counter argument to people not getting the new UIs in Lion/Mountain Lion. Just use it.

Krazy Bill
Aug 2, 2012, 04:24 PM
Well said. It comes down to getting used to it and once you do you can't see yourself without it.

Uh... no. :)

I thought Mission Control was dumb at first and just a gimmick to look more like iOS but after using it for a bit, I ditched my applications folder stack on the dock for the 4 finger pinch method.
You're first impression was the correct one. It is dumb for a whole host of reasons. ALTHOUGH... I have to hand it to Apple for giving users the option to ungroup their windows. Holy crap, somebody was listening... sort of...

All of this sums up the counter argument to people not getting the new UIs in Lion/Mountain Lion. Just use it.Still no excuse not to give folks the "option". (Yeah, I know, that's not generally in Apple's dictionary). It shouldn't be that difficult to revamp the old Spaces and Expose' apps and just put them back. I just think removing them was too much too soon for some.

sireShonBohn
Aug 2, 2012, 04:35 PM
Because right now I can go CMD-Tab then CMD-~ and get the exact same functionality, but without having to add a third finger into the mix. (In a rather uncomfortable position, at that.)

And besides that 3rd finger slowing you down, I think switching to the program and then cycling through full-sized windows is a lot more useful than scrolling through smaller icons.

Your idea adds a finger and make the windows harder to see. That's 2 strikes and no net gain.

That doesn't work for minimized windows though. There's still no fluid way to find an app and cycle through all minimized windows. Besides, my idea doesn't change anything that already exists in CMD+TAB, it only adds the option of CMD+OPTION+TAB to cycle through ALL windows including minimized.

So imagine you want to switch to an app with 4 open windows, 3 of which are minimized, here's how it would work:

1. Press CMD+TAB

2. Tab or Mouse to App Icon

3. Hold CMD+OPTION to reveal Windows including minimized.

4. Mouse or Tab to Window.

OR

The current way

1. CMD+TAB

2. Mouse or Tab to Window

3. CMD + ~ but you can't find the window?

4. Release CMD

5. Mouse to Dock, if it's hidden it's just annoying.

6. Find App Icon, hover.

7. 3 Finger swipe down.

--

So, 2 or 4 steps which work for every scenario requiring no arm movement, or 7 steps moving your hand back and forth from keyboard to trackpad.

I think my way is better, don't you???

bully worm
Aug 2, 2012, 05:35 PM
Not sure if this has been posted but to get the classic Expose back, uncheck "group windows by application" in system preference>mission control.

Brings back some functionality of Snow Leopard.

http://i.imgur.com/cUHQu.png

InuNacho
Aug 2, 2012, 05:54 PM
Just up to June I was using a Blackbook with a measly 4GB of ram, I always closed things that wasn't being used and never really bothered with spaces. After getting a 17 inch MBP with 16GB I now rarely close things and have just realized how amazing Spaces is! I have about 10 Safari tabs open on Space 2, Aim, mail, and Skype on 3, and everything else on 1 and it's so damn easy navigating and getting around!
My Logitech Performance MX's buttons are set up for all the expose and spaces buttons, I actually feel a bit dirty seamlessly swishing between windows.

I tried MC out on Lion that came with my MBP and I couldn't believe how difficult it was to get around. Maybe ML Mission Control changed a bit but I'm too used to this to change.

dusk007
Aug 3, 2012, 02:05 AM
I love how full screen works on Mountain Lion. I agree that if you have two monitors it's strange that you can only put a fullscreen app on one of them, but it makes logical sense to do it that way when you realize that a fullscreen app is in it's own space, but not it's own desktop. On dual screens it's not as useful, for a single screen it's very useful.It would be much better and more useful if you had the option of say put a full screen app on one screen and keep it there. Maybe only switch the other screen normally but keep that one frozen.
That worked already but less convenient. Would be neat.
On a single screen you can save a bit of space but really check out how MC works with two screens. You have two independent MC yet a Full Screen spans over both why not allow splitting them.

What I think is really bad about MC for which there is definitely no sensible reason. Why cannot you move windows at will inside MC from one to another screen. In spaces you could quickly move around windows at will.
Why the hell cannot you do that anymore.

Totalspaces can do it and also allows options for animation speed. The only thing is that it has no exposé integration like the old spaces used to have.

Well, that is Apple's plan. You figured it out. Steve even said this is the whole purpose behind the "Back to the Mac" campaign (i.e., bring iOS features to OSX).Well I guess I just don't think that is really a full plan. It is more like a partial goal that you can bring along for the ride but it doesn't much work for a primary goal to build an entire UI concept around. Even so I think the execution sucks with an inconsistent bit by bit change. The rate they are going they will wake up with some complete mess at some point and need to clean up at some point. Someone could argue it already got that far.

Small White Car
Aug 3, 2012, 08:05 AM
So imagine you want to switch to an app with 4 open windows, 3 of which are minimized, here's how it would work:



Ah, there's our difference. I hate minimized windows too.

I'd prefer if they just killed that function and then everything would be perfect. I think that sounds like the easiest solution.

AuPhalanx
Aug 3, 2012, 09:59 AM
I used to think that Mission Control was a train wreck. That is until I got a 13" MacBook Air.

Using it on an iMac, Mission Control definitely seemed like a step backwards. On a big screen, Exposé was perfect. The switch to Mission Control was ... Disconcerting, to say the least. And it didn't make my work easier.

Then I got a 13" MacBook Air.

With a small screen, Mission Control makes PERFECT sense. With full-screen apps and spaces, MC has made my work easier. And with gestures, MC is truly awesome.

That being stated, I wish Apple would give folks the option between the two.

T.

bedifferent
Aug 3, 2012, 10:05 AM
I used to think that Mission Control was a train wreck. That is until I got a 13" MacBook Air.

Using it on an iMac, Mission Control definitely seemed like a step backwards. On a big screen, Exposé was perfect. The switch to Mission Control was ... Disconcerting, to say the least. And it didn't make my work easier.

Then I got a 13" MacBook Air.

With a small screen, Mission Control makes PERFECT sense. With full-screen apps and spaces, MC has made my work easier. And with gestures, MC is truly awesome.

That being stated, I wish Apple would give folks the option between the two.

T.

You've nailed it, "Mission Control" was developed with notebooks and one display systems in mind. This is the direction Apple wants to take. I loathe it, as a professional power user I have a minimum of 2; normally 4 displays for work, at home and the office. For multiple display systems, "Mission Control" is a failure of epic proportions.

Apple cares more about notebooks/ultrabooks/iDevices than about power systems. This is evident with full screen app behavior on multiple displays, "Mission Control" and other features that make sense on one display systems.

The solution for us have been the [thankfully] new option of unchecking "Group applications by window" for an "All Windows" "Exposé" and "TotalSpaces" third party app which all bring 10.5/6 "Exposé" and "Spaces" into 10.7/8. Otherwise I would still be on 10.6 Snow Leopard.

alFR
Aug 3, 2012, 10:43 AM
You've nailed it, "Mission Control" was developed with notebooks and one display systems in mind. This is the direction Apple wants to take.

<snip>

Apple cares more about notebooks/ultrabooks/iDevices than about power systems. This is evident with full screen app behavior on multiple displays, "Mission Control" and other features that make sense on one display systems.


Actually, it's the direction users want to take: Apple sold more than twice as many notebooks as desktops last quarter and made more than twice as much revenue from notebook sales as it did from desktop sales. In that context it makes perfect sense for them to optimise some OS features for notebooks.

That said, I think they do need to improve the multiple monitor support for users like yourself - maybe it'll improve once they've updated the Mac Pro (so I guess in 10.9 maybe)?

oneMadRssn
Aug 3, 2012, 10:57 AM
You do know that ML allows you to "ungroup" all your windows now? (Unlike Lion). It's more like old Expose' except as you stated, all minimized windows go in the dock.


Not sure if this has been posted but to get the classic Expose back, uncheck "group windows by application" in system preference>mission control.

Brings back some functionality of Snow Leopard.

Image (http://i.imgur.com/cUHQu.png)

This option has fixed MC in my opinion, no grief with it anymore. I hated the grouped windows, and now I can have the totally ungrouped all the time.

Granted, I don't ever use more than two desktops (to separate work and personal mostly), and the only full-screen app I ever use it Calendar. I can understand how some users who relied on spaces heavily in SL would be upset with that MC changes.

KnightWRX
Aug 3, 2012, 11:14 AM
However the ability to CMD+*insert number here* was also good when switching around.

CMD+*insert number here* works just dandy with MC in ML/Lion.

I also miss how in SL, that when in expose, clicking the application icon in the dock would bring up application expose. Used that ALL the time

Uh ? That still works fine with ML/Lion. I use it all the time. Not to mention you can Expose + CMD-TAB too.

Have you people even used ML/Lion ? :D

----------

There a quick way to do app expose without a trackpad?

I have it mapped to Mouse5.

Krazy Bill
Aug 3, 2012, 11:30 AM
The rate they are going they will wake up with some complete mess at some point and need to clean up at some point. Someone could argue it already got that far.

Well, it's not going away. :)

you realize that a fullscreen app is in it's own space, but not it's own desktop.Herein lies the problem.

Why, (I repeat, "why") do Full Screen Apps behave this way? Other applications have had full screen capabilities for years and have merrily co-existed with regular apps. Apple certainly didn't invent the concept of hiding a menu/toolbar.

The answer: Full Screen mode forces OSX users to use their windows like an iOS device. They are no longer windows - it's as simple as that. No Desktop, no other windows allowed. I find this disconcerting and very telling. The Finder in OSX will one day be gone and we'll be forced to manage documents from within that application.

Don't get me wrong... Mountain Lion is quite usable and I'm not concerned with "right now". I just see where things are slowly headed and always thought I'd be a lifetime OSX user. Not anymore.

But it's all moot. The consumer-lemmings have spoken with their wallets. They like the iWay of doing things which Apple correctly perceives as the way to conduct business. One needs only to look at the neutering of the Mac Pro line to see that Apple has all but abandoned the pro/corporate world.

So, either the people here complaining about where OSX is headed (like me) are more brilliant than Apple's iDevice simpletons who get orgasmic over every new Apple offering or... we're just too stupid and set in our ways to "get it".

Personally, I'm going to try to stay on Snow Leopard until it outlives its purpose or my MBP dies (I can't install SL on a new one). Then I'll see what the non-Apple world has to offer.

heisenberg123
Aug 3, 2012, 11:35 AM
Well, it's not going away. :)

Herein lies the problem.

Why, (I repeat, "why") do Full Screen Apps behave this way? Other applications have had full screen capabilities for years and have merrily co-existed with regular apps. Apple certainly didn't invent the concept of hiding a menu/toolbar.

im pretty sure if it wasnt its own desktop you would not be able to easily swipe left or right to other full screen apps

or i might be wrong on that

dukebound85
Aug 3, 2012, 11:44 AM
Uh ? That still works fine with ML/Lion. I use it all the time. Not to mention you can Expose + CMD-TAB too.

Have you people even used ML/Lion ? :D[COLOR="#808080"]


We must not be talking about the same thing! I have SL on my work machine and ML on my personal.

This is what I am talking about.....in SL when I am in Expose mode, I can click the app icon in the dock and then I am application expose for the app I clicked. This application Expose works also in SL by just holding down the icon at anytime as well, don't have to be in expose mode (very nice)

In ML and Lion, not at all, at least in the behavior I was expecting. It tends to bring up a menu with a list of what windows are open




I have it mapped to Mouse5.

Good call:)

Krazy Bill
Aug 3, 2012, 11:56 AM
im pretty sure if it wasnt its own desktop you would not be able to easily swipe left or right to other full screen appsWhy not? Just swipe across desktops like you do now. :) Make sure the FS app you want in that desktop is the active app/window. If not, call up Expose' and select it.

Imagine using Mission Control now with no full screen apps. Just because an app isn't displaying the menu/toolbar doesn't mean it should get its own constrictive universe. Again, this is for no apparent reason other than to keep you rooted in iOS behaviors and avoid any contact with a desktop or file management outside that application. (It's headed that way).

dusk007
Aug 3, 2012, 12:15 PM
Why, (I repeat, "why") do Full Screen Apps behave this way? Other applications have had full screen capabilities for years and have merrily co-existed with regular apps. Apple certainly didn't invent the concept of hiding a menu/toolbar.

The answer: Full Screen mode forces OSX users to use their windows like an iOS device. They are no longer windows - it's as simple as that. No Desktop, no other windows allowed. I find this disconcerting and very telling. The Finder in OSX will one day be gone and we'll be forced to manage documents from within that application.
Yeah full screen mode seems to be more like a new UI concept that may work on single screen small devices but it is really inflexible. It is like Metro just that Metro (or however MS wants to call it now) has more to offer than plain full screen.
I used to use full screen to quickly snap an app to one screen and sometimes keep it there. Like play a VLC movie in one screen do everything else in the other. Cannot be done. Opera and other browser had for years the F11 presentation mode. If available it even used the presentation stylesheets on some web pages. Even in this mode it just behave like a full screen movie player nothing special.
I don't know of a single app that actually makes use of two displays in this strange mode. One is simple rendered useless. The argument of not to confuse users is really a bad excuse.
So, either the people here complaining about where OSX is headed (like me) are more brilliant than Apple's iDevice simpletons who get orgasmic over every new Apple offering or... we're just too stupid and set in our ways to "get it".

Personally, I'm going to try to stay on Snow Leopard until it outlives its purpose or my MBP dies (I can't install SL on a new one). Then I'll see what the non-Apple world has to offer.
I agree. I haven't been long on the plattform. Some 2.5 years now. I was convinced by the hardware (great display) and thought the UI of OSX to be nice and sleek and well executed. I started with SL and like almost everything. I loved the touchpad with bettertouchtool and Alfred for launching stuff. I am definitely not one who doesn't gladly take any new UI design if I see a point it.
I was a big fan of Opera because they pretty much invented almost every single Browser Usability feature that exists today. I jumped on almost all of them.
When it comes to Lion and ML I feel like this will be the first and last MacBook Pro. Touchpads are now much better on Windows too and I personally see more promise in Windows 8 than in whatever direction OSX is heading.
I think Alfred is the one App that Windows 8 needs a true equivalent of. And a better bettertouchtool equivalent. Then I guess my next Notebook will be some sleek tablet notebook hybrid. Great for couch surfing and still good at handling 2+ displays on the desk.
I only wish there would be Notebooks in 16:10 or something again. 16:9 really is little screen for its length bag stuffability. I don't like small screens. 14" is the lowest I would go.
Besides that the graphic switching implementation of Apple also bugs me. I want something that can switch when really needed and not for any 2D crap that Intel can handle just fine. Though by the time I get a new notebook I will probably be okay with Intel Haswell's GPU and don't need a dedicated anyway for the little gaming I still do.

monkeybagel
Aug 3, 2012, 12:26 PM
CMD+TAB could still be better if it revealed minimized windows. For instance, press CMD+TAB and each app you highlight shows a little row of minimized windows under it, maybe you can click them or hit the arrow key. Or just reveal all windows when using CMD+TAB as it currently is. Then you can swipe down right after and use app-expose to locate the specific window.

You can restore minimized windows by holding Option while you release Cmd+Tab.

Alameda
Aug 3, 2012, 01:00 PM
Let me get this straight: To bring up Mission Control, I swipe up with four fingers on my trackpad or double-tab with two fingers on my Magic Mouse. To bring up App Expose, I swipe down with four fingers on my trackpad, or... well, I can't bring it up with the Magic Mouse.

That makes no sense!

Tech198
Aug 3, 2012, 01:08 PM
Seem to be missing the point.

CMD+TAB only shows what apps are running, it doesn't give you a visual of Windows of those apps, where as Mission Control does.

You know exactly which Desktop an app runs in you don't get with CMD+TAB.

Of course, some people don't use multiple desktops, which would make more sense to use CMD+TAB instead.:apple:

I use Mission Control all the time and its the single best thing about OS X.

nangariel
Aug 3, 2012, 01:13 PM
Let me get this straight: To bring up Mission Control, I swipe up with four fingers on my trackpad or double-tab with two fingers on my Magic Mouse. To bring up App Expose, I swipe down with four fingers on my trackpad, or... well, I can't bring it up with the Magic Mouse.

That makes no sense!

You can, just double tap with two fingers on the icon of the respective app in the dock.

heisenberg123
Aug 3, 2012, 02:13 PM
Why not? Just swipe across desktops like you do now. :) Make sure the FS app you want in that desktop is the active app/window. If not, call up Expose' and select it.



Im confused lets say you have Safari, Mail, and iTunes all open on Desktop 1

you make Safari Full Screen, it would cover Mail and iTunes where wouldnt be any other Desktops to swipe too, if it didnt bump Safari to its own desktop

KnightWRX
Aug 3, 2012, 02:16 PM
We must not be talking about the same thing! I have SL on my work machine and ML on my personal.

This is what I am talking about.....in SL when I am in Expose mode, I can click the app icon in the dock and then I am application expose for the app I clicked. This application Expose works also in SL by just holding down the icon at anytime as well, don't have to be in expose mode (very nice)

In ML and Lion, not at all, at least in the behavior I was expecting. It tends to bring up a menu with a list of what windows are open

Uh ? Works fine here on both Lion and ML. Hard to take a screenshot of it though. I invoke "app expose", then switch apps by clicking on the dock and it stays in App Expose only showing the new App. I can either click the dock or use CMD-TAB to reproduce this.

I've been using this feature since Lion. I find it much better than "All windows Expose".

----------

Let me get this straight: To bring up Mission Control, I swipe up with four fingers on my trackpad or double-tab with two fingers on my Magic Mouse. To bring up App Expose, I swipe down with four fingers on my trackpad, or... well, I can't bring it up with the Magic Mouse.

That makes no sense!

Set your bindings appropriately to what you want.

Krazy Bill
Aug 3, 2012, 02:54 PM
Im confused lets say you have Safari, Mail, and iTunes all open on Desktop 1

you make Safari Full Screen, it would cover Mail and iTunes where wouldnt be any other Desktops to swipe too,

I don't understand your dilemma. Simply drag Safari off to the right to a create a new desktop/space. Mail and iTunes could stay on Desktop 1.

I'm saying there's no reason why all 3 of those apps can't be full screen and share the same desktop. Instead of swiping left/right... you swipe into Expose' and just pick the one you want. (Or put each in their own "space" like I explained above).

For all the lazy people who want their FS apps confined to their own desktop by default (like they are now), a toggle in system preferences could handle that.

To me, this is how it should work. It allows one to truly categorize their desktops and all the windows/apps they contain in any way the user feels is productive and makes sense... not the way Apple thinks it should be.

"Missing Control" was dumbed down because of users like you that never used Spaces/Expose in previous OSX versions. (That's not meant to be offensive! :)) What is insulting is Apple assuming you and all iOS users are too stupid to handle this kind of power. :D

sireShonBohn
Aug 3, 2012, 03:04 PM
You can restore minimized windows by holding Option while you release Cmd+Tab.

Didn't work...

sireShonBohn
Aug 3, 2012, 03:14 PM
Ah, there's our difference. I hate minimized windows too.

I'd prefer if they just killed that function and then everything would be perfect. I think that sounds like the easiest solution.

I like minimizing windows, I don't like managing them on OSX.

dusk007
Aug 3, 2012, 03:18 PM
I wonder why they thought that it is too difficult to move Windows in MC to different screens.
With two screens you basically get two MC that act is if they where only responsible for their own screen.
http://grab.by/f9vChttp://grab.by/f9vy
You can pick a window and move it to any existing desktop on the screen you are on. But the second monitor MC is entirely independent in that respect. You CANNOT move a window just from one screen to the other in MC. Spaces could do that just fine. Why not? I would expect that behavior.

If those spaces are so inseparably linked why is that feature missing. Makes no sense to me.

Alameda
Aug 3, 2012, 03:25 PM
Set your bindings appropriately to what you want.Oh? I can remap other gestures with Terminal? Can you please tell me how?

Krazy Bill
Aug 3, 2012, 04:03 PM
I wonder why they thought that it is too difficult to move Windows in MC to different screens.

Because we're stoopid. :D

Seriously... I'm really beginning to think there are no OSX coders left at Apple that have used Snow Leopard much less worked on it. Either turnover is high in that department or they get shipped over to the iOS team. (or both).

dusk007
Aug 3, 2012, 04:40 PM
I don't know how it can be done with terminal.

Install BetterTouchTool.
You can set any gesture anyway you want. I disabled most of the defaults in ML because they really don't work for me.
Like MC is four finger swipe down and I like to show the desktop on four finger up.

In the Trackpad options you can only switch between using a different amount of fingers for the same general gestures.

monkeybagel
Aug 3, 2012, 06:28 PM
Didn't work...

Not sure what you are doing wrong. Works here on 10.8, as well as 10.7 and 10.6

sireShonBohn
Aug 4, 2012, 02:48 AM
Not sure what you are doing wrong. Works here on 10.8, as well as 10.7 and 10.6

Yes, it appears that if you have multiple windows open in an app and some of those windows are minimized and some aren't, then no windows are restored by holding OPTION. Only if all windows are minimized is *one* of the windows restored...

Jagardn
Aug 4, 2012, 07:38 AM
Clearly, you never used a Mac with Snow Leopard... also, its Mountain Lion, ML... not Mountain Cub, MC... Lol

Clearly what your saying is opinion. I used Snow Leopard and like Mission Control better.