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View Full Version : Why AIR's take a harder price drop than any other model!!!?




BigB82
Aug 6, 2012, 01:31 AM
Its ridiculous but people sell their 2008 2009 13 inch pro models for $750-800 easy when the orignal price was like 1199.

yet the fully loaded air which was like $1799 is on ebay for like $950, and truth be told a WAY better machine than any pro as far as speed and portability. How come the pro market doesn't get it that hard? in that respect of resale is it better to get a retina base than a loaded air?

Even older 2010 Air seem to still fetch big money, did I miss something this time around?



miles01110
Aug 6, 2012, 01:38 AM
Because Airs can't be upgraded, and are designed to be throw-away machines.

mobilebuddha
Aug 6, 2012, 01:47 AM
cuz mac fanatics who buy 2008/09 machines for 800 bucks are stupid? morons? isheeple?

take your pick.

aside from the "i reallllllly want that retina screen" (and certain folks have to have that 15/17in screen), there's almost no reason for most people who would buy a mac laptop to prefer MBP over MBA nowadays.


Its ridiculous but people sell their 2008 2009 13 inch pro models for $750-800 easy when the orignal price was like 1199.

yet the fully loaded air which was like $1799 is on ebay for like $950, and truth be told a WAY better machine than any pro as far as speed and portability. How come the pro market doesn't get it that hard? in that respect of resale is it better to get a retina base than a loaded air?

Even older 2010 Air seem to still fetch big money, did I miss something this time around?

mattopotamus
Aug 6, 2012, 07:14 AM
Because Airs can't be upgraded, and are designed to be throw-away machines.

this is the main reason. People interested in the Pro models know they can be upgraded, so they hold value really well. The difference between the Pros is merely CPU.....the difference in the airs is RAM, CPU, and SSD, all of which (aside from the SSD) cannot be upgraded. RAM being the biggest factor. The difference between a base AIR 2011 w/ 2gb of RAM and a 2012 AIR with 8gb of RAM will be massive in a years time....pros do not face these limitations.

KPOM
Aug 6, 2012, 07:22 AM
I think the better question is why the older 13" Pro models sell for so high given that the current models are much more powerful. The Air has a more normal pattern. The 2012 models are cheaper than than the 2011s or 2010s when they came out, and are more powerful (plus they have USB 3.0).

"Upgradeability" of a 13" Pro is overrated. The RAM can be upgraded to 8GB (same as the Air), and the SSD is user replaceable. Beyond that, they are about as upgradeable as the Air. Certainly a 2009 13" Pro, even "upgraded" isn't worth $800, at least it shouldn't be.

mattopotamus
Aug 6, 2012, 07:26 AM
I think the better question is why the older 13" Pro models sell for so high given that the current models are much more powerful. The Air has a more normal pattern. The 2012 models are cheaper than than the 2011s or 2010s when they came out, and are more powerful (plus they have USB 3.0).

"Upgradeability" of a 13" Pro is overrated. The RAM can be upgraded to 8GB (same as the Air), and the SSD is user replaceable. Beyond that, they are about as upgradeable as the Air. Certainly a 2009 13" Pro, even "upgraded" isn't worth $800, at least it shouldn't be.

same as the 2012 Airs....That is the whole point. Hands down, you can get more life out of a pro than an Air. Maybe not the current Airs b.c they are beast, but in the past being limited to 4gb ram and 2gb by default will limit people down the Road. If you bought a 2011 pro and a 2011 air, the pro will last you longer if you want it to based on minimum requirements alone(3-4 years down the road). Today's models....the 13" pro would be a stupid buy IMO

KPOM
Aug 6, 2012, 07:33 AM
same as the 2012 Airs....That is the whole point. Hands down, you can get more life out of a pro than an Air. Maybe not the current Airs b.c they are beast, but in the past being limited to 4gb ram and 2gb by default will limit people down the Road. If you bought a 2011 pro and a 2011 air, the pro will last you longer if you want it to based on minimum requirements alone(3-4 years down the road). Today's models....the 13" pro would be a stupid buy IMO

But that doesn't explain why a 2009 Pro would go for $800. Sure, it can and should go for more than a 2009 Air, and a 2011 Pro could go for more than a 2011 Air, but the Pro prices given above seem inflated.

Now that the Pro line is starting to go down the same path as the Air (the Retina MacBook Pro is even less upgradable than the Air), we should start seeing a leveling of price patterns. If we see a 13" Retina Pro, it likely will be in the form factor of the 15" Retina Pro (primarily for the extra battery), and may have a 2nd Thunderbolt port. But I don't expect it to be upgradable.

mattopotamus
Aug 6, 2012, 08:19 AM
But that doesn't explain why a 2009 Pro would go for $800. Sure, it can and should go for more than a 2009 Air, and a 2011 Pro could go for more than a 2011 Air, but the Pro prices given above seem inflated.

Now that the Pro line is starting to go down the same path as the Air (the Retina MacBook Pro is even less upgradable than the Air), we should start seeing a leveling of price patterns. If we see a 13" Retina Pro, it likely will be in the form factor of the 15" Retina Pro (primarily for the extra battery), and may have a 2nd Thunderbolt port. But I don't expect it to be upgradable.

Agreed. Also, people who do not know a lot about technology assume the word "pro" means better. I have plenty of friends who think that way and would pay more for a pro just because the name.

OneMike
Aug 6, 2012, 09:00 AM
Because Airs can't be upgraded, and are designed to be throw-away machines.

The fact that they can't be upgraded other than SSD is a reason.

Market is next. I think the percentage of people that are interested in Air's and of those people, the percentage that are interested in used Air's is just low.

I sold my 2011 Air in Feb and broke even since I had got on Amazon at a discount and no tax. This was on craigslist. Overall interest was low though. I didn't even get low ball offer emails.

Other Macs I'd get a ton of inquiries.

seared.ahi
Aug 6, 2012, 09:03 AM
Agreed. Also, people who do not know a lot about technology assume the word "pro" means better. I have plenty of friends who think that way and would pay more for a pro just because the name.

Hehe. My brother just bought a 13" Macbook Pro yesterday. My own brother!!! And he got the $1499 one. I went to the Apple Store with him even, asked if he wanted to get the base and upgrade the RAM for $100 but nooooo. Lol.

mattopotamus
Aug 6, 2012, 09:16 AM
Hehe. My brother just bought a 13" Macbook Pro yesterday. My own brother!!! And he got the $1499 one. I went to the Apple Store with him even, asked if he wanted to get the base and upgrade the RAM for $100 but nooooo. Lol.

They kinda advertise it that way too.....air, pro, retina. If you are going to go pro, imo, it only makes sense to start at the 15" with quad core.....otherwise you are throwing money away with a dual core pro.

seared.ahi
Aug 6, 2012, 09:26 AM
They kinda advertise it that way too.....air, pro, retina. If you are going to go pro, imo, it only makes sense to start at the 15" with quad core.....otherwise you are throwing money away with a dual core pro.
15" was too expensive for him he said.

My MBAs coming today, we'll probably end up comparing them.

mattopotamus
Aug 6, 2012, 09:33 AM
15" was too expensive for him he said.

My MBAs coming today, we'll probably end up comparing them.

and you will be rocking that SSD, which will blow his out of the water....that alone will make him wish he went AIR. Also, with the 15", by time you put more RAM in and an SSD, you could have gone retina.

Wokis
Aug 6, 2012, 09:50 AM
and you will be rocking that SSD, which will blow his out of the water....that alone will make him wish he went AIR. Also, with the 15", by time you put more RAM in and an SSD, you could have gone retina.

Nah. $1799 + $238* = $2037. That's $162 saved! Well.. ok.. that's not that much ^^

*Current price for a Crucial M4 256GB SSD and a 4GB Kingston 1600MHz SODIMM on newegg.

mattopotamus
Aug 6, 2012, 10:24 AM
Nah. $1799 + $238* = $2037. That's $162 saved! Well.. ok.. that's not that much ^^

*Current price for a Crucial M4 256GB SSD and a 4GB Kingston 1600MHz SODIMM on newegg.

with the student discount your save $200 on the retina and only $100 on the pro unless you get the high end...and online everyone is a student :)

Phil22
Aug 6, 2012, 10:45 AM
If that is the case miles01110 then will the new retina macbook pro suffer from the same lack of re-sale value as it's unable to be modified or upgraded as well?

Is the retina a throw-away machine?

stchman
Aug 6, 2012, 03:06 PM
Because Airs can't be upgraded, and are designed to be throw-away machines.

The SSD and battery on the MBA can be user replaced.

The only thing on the MBA that can't be upgraded that normally gets upgraded on other laptops is the RAM.

In defense of the MBA, the rMBP can't have the RAM upgraded and the battery is glued in.

As a general rule, laptops are not the most upgradable devices regardless of manufacturer.

linuxcooldude
Aug 6, 2012, 05:08 PM
Because Airs can't be upgraded, and are designed to be throw-away machines.

Ultra portability comes at a cost. To reduce the size/weight most components are not made to be easily replaceable. Adding more components to make the parts replaceable would increase the physical size of the enclosure. So compromises had to be made.

Beanoir
Aug 6, 2012, 05:18 PM
Because Airs can't be upgraded, and are designed to be throw-away machines.

There's the answer in a nutshell.

markintosh
Aug 6, 2012, 05:33 PM
"Upgradeability" of a 13" Pro is overrated. The RAM can be upgraded to 8GB (same as the Air), .

Actually, the Pro can go to 16GB RAM. I have that running in my early '11 13" MBP. I'd rather have an AIR, but with VMs and Adobe products, the extra 8GB makes it for me.

Calot
Aug 6, 2012, 05:39 PM
this is the main reason. People interested in the Pro models know they can be upgraded, so they hold value really well. The difference between the Pros is merely CPU.....the difference in the airs is RAM, CPU, and SSD, all of which (aside from the SSD) cannot be upgraded. RAM being the biggest factor. The difference between a base AIR 2011 w/ 2gb of RAM and a 2012 AIR with 8gb of RAM will be massive in a years time....pros do not face these limitations.

Are you saying that because people can get a 2009 13" MacBook Pro, and spend 500 bucks to get a decent SSD and 8GB of 1060 mhz RAM in it, they resell better that Airs?

The Airs have been evolving into more and more powerful machines. I just got my 13" i7/8GB/256GB and it is ridiculously fast. 7900 geekbench.

Those old MacBooks will never be 1/3rd as fast as mine. Why? No matter what SSD you get the interface is NOT SATA 3 as mine. 8GB of 1060 mhz RAM will feel a lot slower than my 1600 mhz RAM.

Add USB 3, Thunderbolt, MUCH better resolution, half the weight. And you get a much better machine.

True, 2008-2010 MacBook Airs are kind of a joke.

2011 and 2012? Not really.

SlCKB0Y
Aug 6, 2012, 08:25 PM
Are you saying that because people can get a 2009 13" MacBook Pro, and spend 500 bucks to get a decent SSD and 8GB of 1060 mhz RAM in it, they resell better that Airs?


It's quite obvious that is what they are saying. Also, the price is more likely closer to $250-300 for a good 256GB SSD and 8GB RAM.

Also, it's not that they will, it's that they know they can.


The Airs have been evolving into more and more powerful machines. I just got my 13" i7/8GB/256GB and it is ridiculously fast. 7900 geekbench.

Those old MacBooks will never be 1/3rd as fast as mine. Why? No matter what SSD you get the interface is NOT SATA 3 as mine. 8GB of 1060 mhz RAM will feel a lot slower than my 1600 mhz RAM.


1/3 as fast doing what? The biggest factor in speeding up desktop responsiveness is the SSD and if you think you'll be able to tell the difference between a SATA 2 and a SATA 3 drive you're kidding yourself....even on huge files the difference will be in seconds.

"feeling" RAM speeds? hahahaha.

Were you until very recently a Windows user?

Calot
Aug 6, 2012, 08:59 PM
It's quite obvious that is what they are saying. Also, the price is more likely closer to $250-300 for a good 256GB SSD and 8GB RAM.

Also, it's not that they will, it's that they know they can.



1/3 as fast doing what? The biggest factor in speeding up desktop responsiveness is the SSD and if you think you'll be able to tell the difference between a SATA 2 and a SATA 3 drive you're kidding yourself....even on huge files the difference will be in seconds.

"feeling" RAM speeds? hahahaha.


Were you until very recently a Windows user?

Hmmmm. Not feeling a difference between Intel HD 3000 and 4000? 1060 mhz RAM and 1600 mhz RAM?

Oh, you must be one of those people that uses their White Macbook to check their email and watch porn. So when you go to the Apple store and try the same on a Mac Pro with 16Gb of RAM, you can't "feel" the difference. Right. Kewl.

Bottom line: paying 1200 bucks for a used, fat, old, less resolution MacBook with 8Gb of RAM and SSD.... Hmmm not very smart.

Anyway. If there are people that use Android and Love Samsung, there certainly will be people that do that. Just not "smart" people.

stchman
Aug 7, 2012, 01:04 AM
It seems that the big complaint is that the RAM cannot be upgraded on the MBA is the reason that it is valued less.

What about the rMBP, it's even less upgradable than the MBA?

mattopotamus
Aug 7, 2012, 06:30 AM
Hmmmm. Not feeling a difference between Intel HD 3000 and 4000? 1060 mhz RAM and 1600 mhz RAM?

Oh, you must be one of those people that uses their White Macbook to check their email and watch porn. So when you go to the Apple store and try the same on a Mac Pro with 16Gb of RAM, you can't "feel" the difference. Right. Kewl.

Bottom line: paying 1200 bucks for a used, fat, old, less resolution MacBook with 8Gb of RAM and SSD.... Hmmm not very smart.

Anyway. If there are people that use Android and Love Samsung, there certainly will be people that do that. Just not "smart" people.

no one is saying pay $1200 for a used pro. We are explaining why they hold value better, and until recently (which you agree) the Airs were limited by their specs. I would buy a 2010 pro with 8gb of RAM and an SSD over a 2011 Air with 2gb of RAM no matter what size the SSD was. If I wanted I could push the pro much longer b.c in a few years 2gb of ram will not even meet the minimum requirements....hence the pros selling at a higher price. Now, will the 2012 Airs hold value any better? only time will tell, but I would imagine so....especially for people who upgraded the RAM

rockyroad55
Aug 7, 2012, 07:11 AM
Also maybe people still value the optical drive? We probably don't but I bet the majority of Craigslist browsers aren't as tech savvy as we are.

roland.g
Aug 7, 2012, 09:21 AM
It doesn't have as much to do with the purchase price as the current price. If you are referring to an Air that cost $1,799, when SSDs were quite pricey, then that was before the Air price came down. With the new Airs so affordable in the $1,100 to $1,600 range, of course a used Air will fetch $800-$1,000. The MBPs have been relatively stable in their price points. And not much has changed other than chipset, cpu speed, etc. The Air has also been upgraded, but SSD and other components have gotten cheaper, bringing the price down.

Would you buy a used Air for $1,300 when a new one cost the same or less. It's relative to prices of new machines. You can't look at it in terms of what that machine originally cost.

urkel
Aug 7, 2012, 09:28 AM
If that is the case miles01110 then will the new retina macbook pro suffer from the same lack of re-sale value as it's unable to be modified or upgraded as well?

Is the retina a throw-away machine?
People seem to be offended by his terminology, but miles does make a good point and it might apply to the rMBP. In 2 years then will the value of the $2100+ rMBP take a significantly larger hit than the older yet more upgradable MBP's? Even though eBay is a community full of scavengers who gladly overpay for other People's junk, when the starting price point is that high then the dropoff in price will still alienate the typical value-seeking ebayers and the limited upgradability pushes away the pros in need of a used powerhouse.

"Throw away machine" sounds demeaning for such new computers, but it does seem accurate in the eyes of the resale market.

Stetrain
Aug 7, 2012, 10:04 AM
In general I think that the resale value (compared to original purchase price) of upgraded / top-of-the-line machines is worse than the base models.

You pay a lot when you purchase one to go up to things like the top-spec processor and larger SSD, but people buying a used computer probably won't put as much value on those things.

KPOM
Aug 7, 2012, 10:14 AM
In general I think that the resale value (compared to original purchase price) of upgraded / top-of-the-line machines is worse than the base models.

You pay a lot when you purchase one to go up to things like the top-spec processor and larger SSD, but people buying a used computer probably won't put as much value on those things.

That's exactly the case. Base models do keep more of their value, particularly on the MacBook Air line. Remember, the top models have the highest profit margins for Apple. The extra 4GB of RAM cost them about $20, but adds $100 to the purchase price. The i7 ads about $75 to the cost of the 11" (following Intel's list price), but $150 to the price. 2 years from now, both the 1.7GHz i5 and 2.0GHz i7 will seem out of date, so the i7 model won't fetch much more than the i5 model.

richlee111
Aug 7, 2012, 10:29 AM
That's exactly the case. Base models do keep more of their value, particularly on the MacBook Air line. Remember, the top models have the highest profit margins for Apple. The extra 4GB of RAM cost them about $20, but adds $100 to the purchase price. The i7 ads about $75 to the cost of the 11" (following Intel's list price), but $150 to the price. 2 years from now, both the 1.7GHz i5 and 2.0GHz i7 will seem out of date, so the i7 model won't fetch much more than the i5 model.

Exactly. Also, for most non-techies, they can't understand why a MacBook Air with an SSD that has less capacity costs more then a MacBook Pro w/ a regular HDD. On top of that, the 256GB or 512GB SSD options for Airs run $300-$600 more. On the used market, people just want cheap and don't care about how much you paid for the upgrade. So like some other people said, unloading a maxed out Air is a loss because of these reasons:(

And yes, I'm one of those who sold a 2011 11" Air Ultimate on EBay for $1050(before fees).

asting
Aug 7, 2012, 10:35 AM
There seems to be a huge misconception here: 95% of users won't and don't upgrade their computers. The added capabilities don't matter to them.

mikeray
Aug 7, 2012, 11:45 AM
The 2012 Airs are really the first models with reasonable specs, so I don't foresee this being a problem moving forward.

NutsNGum
Aug 7, 2012, 12:07 PM
The 2012 Airs are really the first models with reasonable specs, so I don't foresee this being a problem moving forward.

How do u figure that one out? There's next to no difference between them and the 2011 models.

urkel
Aug 7, 2012, 12:11 PM
The 2012 Airs are really the first models with reasonable specs, so I don't foresee this being a problem moving forward.
I understand what you mean and agree thay 4GB is going to be good enough for most casual users. but The base model of the 2012 11" Air is 64GB and 13" is 128GB. We may find creative ways to justify and cram our data to fit those drives but Those are hardly "reasonable" siZes for long term usage and will heavily impact resale.

yekim
Aug 7, 2012, 01:30 PM
Man, it drives me nuts when people selling their older Mac's say that "new this cost me around $2000" or more.

Does that mean it is still worth $1000 or more being a two old mac?

stchman
Aug 7, 2012, 01:50 PM
Man, it drives me nuts when people selling their older Mac's say that "new this cost me around $2000" or more.

Does that mean it is still worth $1000 or more being a two old mac?

To them it is.

Before I bought my 2012 MBA, I looked online for a lightly used MBA. People wanted as much sometimes MORE for a used one.

I do agree that a Mac holds its value better than a Dell, but I am not going to spend the same on a used one when I can get a new one. Ridiculous.

cfedu
Aug 7, 2012, 02:13 PM
It doesn't have as much to do with the purchase price as the current price. If you are referring to an Air that cost $1,799, when SSDs were quite pricey, then that was before the Air price came down. With the new Airs so affordable in the $1,100 to $1,600 range, of course a used Air will fetch $800-$1,000. The MBPs have been relatively stable in their price points. And not much has changed other than chipset, cpu speed, etc. The Air has also been upgraded, but SSD and other components have gotten cheaper, bringing the price down.

Would you buy a used Air for $1,300 when a new one cost the same or less. It's relative to prices of new machines. You can't look at it in terms of what that machine originally cost.

This sums it up well, all I would add is that there are lots of stupid people who buy used. Still does not explain why one would pay more for a core 2 duo pro then a refurbished i5 with better specs and warranty.

----------

To them it is.

Before I bought my 2012 MBA, I looked online for a lightly used MBA. People wanted as much sometimes MORE for a used one.

I do agree that a Mac holds its value better than a Dell, but I am not going to spend the same on a used one when I can get a new one. Ridiculous.

I've been bugging this guy on craigslist for a 20" g5 iMac, he is firm at $1000 lol. Then you have the people trying to sell there 2011 model as a 2012. With stupid buyers and dishonest sellers I guess anything is possible.

stchman
Aug 7, 2012, 03:29 PM
This sums it up well, all I would add is that there are lots of stupid people who buy used. Still does not explain why one would pay more for a core 2 duo pro then a refurbished i5 with better specs and warranty.

----------



I've been bugging this guy on craigslist for a 20" g5 iMac, he is firm at $1000 lol. Then you have the people trying to sell there 2011 model as a 2012. With stupid buyers and dishonest sellers I guess anything is possible.

Does the Craigslist person know that a brand new iMac is $1200?

BigB82
Aug 8, 2012, 12:16 AM
sorry I dipped on you guys, dad had surgery this morning, which btw went successful. This was definitely entertaining to read. I have a loaded 13 Air 2011 model I am trying to sell. I have a 2012 loaded 13 Air I just bought, I could have gone for the base retina but the extra weight was a pain. I would love to see a 13 pro retina at which point I would sell this Air and change over and probably have some money to get back in my pocket.

Amazing how the computer market has been evolving over the last couple decades. I remember buying my first computer a Packard Bell at Best Buy in 1996 for close to $3,500 WOW lol

thekev
Aug 8, 2012, 02:09 AM
sorry I dipped on you guys, dad had surgery this morning, which btw went successful. This was definitely entertaining to read. I have a loaded 13 Air 2011 model I am trying to sell. I have a 2012 loaded 13 Air I just bought, I could have gone for the base retina but the extra weight was a pain. I would love to see a 13 pro retina at which point I would sell this Air and change over and probably have some money to get back in my pocket.

Amazing how the computer market has been evolving over the last couple decades. I remember buying my first computer a Packard Bell at Best Buy in 1996 for close to $3,500 WOW lol

Oh man that sucks. I hope your dad is okay. It's easier to just regard computers as sunken costs. Regarding their depreciation, you have a number of factors. The first macbook airs didn't sell that well. They were expensive. They still had HDDs and a throttled core2duo era cpu. More recent models are considerably more responsive. The 2012 model is actually quite nice. A used early macbook air must compete against newer refurbished market hardware sold by Apple around the $1000 mark. Right now Apple charges $929 for a refurbished 2011 13". Both cater to the market of "want a mac laptop yet can't truly afford one". Anyway macbook airs have limited means of repair. If you're outside of the original warranty and going back several generations, good luck if anything starts to fail. Newer ones may retain their value a little better, but Apple still charges a significant premium on ram and ssds in the Air, so expect used values to decline relative to newer things where the standard features of the newer one outpace things that were previously cto upgrades.


People seem to be offended by his terminology, but miles does make a good point and it might apply to the rMBP. In 2 years then will the value of the $2100+ rMBP take a significantly larger hit than the older yet more upgradable MBP's? Even though eBay is a community full of scavengers who gladly overpay for other People's junk, when the starting price point is that high then the dropoff in price will still alienate the typical value-seeking ebayers and the limited upgradability pushes away the pros in need of a used powerhouse.

"Throw away machine" sounds demeaning for such new computers, but it does seem accurate in the eyes of the resale market.

Apple's refurbished pricing seems to shift around quite a bit at times. Right now you can get a late 2011 2.2 ghz 15" for $1359. The cpu performance of the early 2011 2.2 was marginally higher, and gpu performance was slightly lower, yet it was $2200 at its debut. If you bought the machine one year ago, it was $2200. Today you're looking at maybe $1200. If some of the features of the rMBP trickle down to lower models, it will absolutely reduce its value. This doesn't mean it's something to throw away, but it will naturally impact what others will pay for it. If you want to lose less, you can consider it at the time of purchase. You could wait for a 13" rMBP or a 15" at the $1800 mark, then wait for that to show up refurbished, apply 0 upgrades, etc. That is capable of delivering something with relatively stable value. You'll still take a hit, but it won't be bad. In the end nothing is throwaway technology if it's still in use. It becomes junk when something that can't be efficiently repaired breaks. Batteries and hard drives are likely to be major sticking points on these when it comes to aging machines.