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bruleke
Aug 13, 2012, 10:04 AM
This thread is intended to reach all of the people who had Snow Leopard, installed Lion and realized it was a terrible choice, then reinstalled Snow Leopard.

So, here is my question: since I am one of these people, I want to know from the people described above if Mountain Lion is a good choice or should I keep my Snow Leopard?

I just don't want to do the same mistake I did installing Lion and going back to Snow Leopard.



sidewinder
Aug 13, 2012, 10:06 AM
You should continue to live in the past.....

S-

bruleke
Aug 13, 2012, 11:05 AM
You should continue to live in the past.....

S-

Are you serious or are you one of those super-dupa-funny guys who waste their time being ironic?
If so, didn't you forget to post a meme or something like that?

Hope you made a good use of your time in Earth, sir.

tarryweather
Aug 13, 2012, 11:06 AM
Are you serious or are you one of those super-dupa-funny guys who waste their time being ironic?
If so, didn't you forget to post a meme or something like that?

Hope you made a good use of your time in Earth, sir.

Man, people on the internet are hostile.

mrapplegate
Aug 13, 2012, 11:20 AM
I guess I'm confused.
You don't like ML and you revert to SL.
You post a message asking if it is a good choice.

It's your computer. Install what you want on it. Why are you seeking input from others when you stated ML was a terrible choice for you. What does it matter what others think?

AndersBrohus
Aug 13, 2012, 11:20 AM
My friend got an iMac that came with Snow Leopard, and he never upgraded to Lion, and he upgraded to Mountain Lion and he said "My iMac hasn't became slower, maybe a little faster" and i own a rMBP and when i got it, it came with Lion and with ML its much faster! So i think ML is a good upgrade :)

Blackened Apple
Aug 13, 2012, 11:24 AM
I guess I'm confused.
You don't like ML and you revert to SL.
You post a message asking if it is a good choice.

It's your computer. Install what you want on it. Why are you seeking input from others when you stated ML was a terrible choice for you. What does it matter what others think?

Hmm, re-read the OP, please.


To the OP, what exactly about Lion made you go back to Snow Leopard?

thejadedmonkey
Aug 13, 2012, 11:24 AM
Honestly, I find Snow Leopard to be the superior OS as I

1) don't care for the app store, and
2) would rather rosetta than iCloud.

But with a 2011 Macbook air, I don't know if I can go back. All-in-all, it's not bad though, it's better than Lion for sure.

Blackened Apple
Aug 13, 2012, 11:29 AM
Honestly, I find Snow Leopard to be the superior OS as I

1) don't care for the app store, and
2) would rather rosetta than iCloud.

But with a 2011 Macbook air, I don't know if I can go back. All-in-all, it's not bad though, it's better than Lion for sure.

SL 10.6.8 has the App Store available...

50548
Aug 13, 2012, 11:29 AM
This thread is intended to reach all of the people who had Snow Leopard, installed Lion and realized it was a terrible choice, then reinstalled Snow Leopard.

So, here is my question: since I am one of these people, I want to know from the people described above if Mountain Lion is a good choice or should I keep my Snow Leopard?

I just don't want to do the same mistake I did installing Lion and going back to Snow Leopard.

Keep SL and forget about ML.

bruleke
Aug 13, 2012, 11:30 AM
Hmm, re-read the OP, please.


To the OP, what exactly about Lion made you go back to Snow Leopard?

You got it.
I DIDNT install ML.
BUT, I installed Lion over my Snow Leonard and I didnt like it for the same reasons hundreds of people complained in this forum. So I returned to Snow Leopard.
Now, I want to know if I will have the same problems as I had with Lion.
IMPORTANT: you might ask "but I dont know which problems you had!"
Then, I repeat: this thread is intended to the people who installed Lion over Snow Leonard and had to return to SL because of the many problems.

50548
Aug 13, 2012, 11:31 AM
I guess I'm confused.
You don't like ML and you revert to SL.
You post a message asking if it is a good choice.

It's your computer. Install what you want on it. Why are you seeking input from others when you stated ML was a terrible choice for you. What does it matter what others think?

No, read again. He had Lion and disliked it; now he is asking if ML is worth upgrading from SL.

Dustman
Aug 13, 2012, 11:33 AM
upgrade. :) Expose's back to normal, and it's time to move on from SL.

bruleke
Aug 13, 2012, 11:38 AM
No, read again. He had Lion and disliked it; now he is asking if ML is worth upgrading from SL.

Yes, you got it too!:D

----------

upgrade. :) Expose's back to normal, and it's time to move on from SL.

Really?
I know it sounds stupid to ask for someone's advice to install an OS, but I want to feel safe before wasting my time like I did with Lion.

Blackened Apple
Aug 13, 2012, 11:39 AM
You got it.
I DIDNT install ML.
BUT, I installed Lion over my Snow Leonard and I didnt like it for the same reasons hundreds of people complained in this forum. So I returned to Snow Leopard.
Now, I want to know if I will have the same problems as I had with Lion.
IMPORTANT: you might ask "but I dont know which problems you had!"
Then, I repeat: this thread is intended to the people who installed Lion over Snow Leonard and had to return to SL because of the many problems.

Well, the answer would be straight forward if you mentioned which specific problems with Lion made you switch back... Then we'd be able to tell you if they have been amended or not.

People had various different reasons why they preferred SL to Lion. If you don't mention yours, this thread is useless.

mrapplegate
Aug 13, 2012, 11:54 AM
No, read again. He had Lion and disliked it; now he is asking if ML is worth upgrading from SL.

:o You know it's not going to be a good day when you can't read a simple post. Oops.

sidewinder
Aug 13, 2012, 12:26 PM
Are you serious...?

Yes, I am serious.

S-

lambertjohn
Aug 13, 2012, 01:24 PM
Past...future...who cares? just install whatever operating system works for you. I drive a 96 Volkswagen GTI. That's a 16 year old car. Drives great and no car payment!! Am I living in the past? Nope. I'm living in the "whatever I want to do with my life" present. My life is my life, nobody else's. Don't listen to all the nay-sayers on this forum; just do whatever makes you roll. You. That's what matters, all that matters.

madsci954
Aug 13, 2012, 02:01 PM
Why was it a terrible choice? Too buggy? Software not compatible anymore? Really can't answer your question without knowing why it was terrible.

OlegShv
Aug 13, 2012, 02:15 PM
I had 10.6.8 on my 2010 MBP until a couple of days ago. I upgraded to 10.8 and everything seems to work fine. The only glitch I noticed were some artifacts in Safari, but they went away just as unexpectedly as they first appeared. Overall, my systems seems faster with ML than with SL. ;)

penguy
Aug 13, 2012, 03:09 PM
Why was it a terrible choice? Too buggy? Software not compatible anymore? Really can't answer your question without knowing why it was terrible.

I tend to agree. I was using SL and upgraded to Lion immediately after release (2009 Mini w/ 8gb ram). Was I totally pleased? not really...it was slower, but not bad enough to warrant reverting. I was shocked to see the number of people who posted to complain about Lion, given that my computer was likely less powerful than what most were using/complaining about.

Either way, I was invited to beta test ML and did so...now THERE was something I should have taken more slowly...the initial release was great, but releases 2-4 were barely useable on my Mini...the current release is great. It's been a while since I used SL, but I don't miss it.

With any release, you take your chances with the .0 release...by .2 or .3 most bugs have been found/corrected...I found this to be the case with SL and L...and will likely be the case with ML, though so far my problems are minimal.

Zmijutin
Aug 14, 2012, 09:57 AM
i got two 2011 13 MBP's one with i5 320GB 4GB and the other one is i7, 120GB SSD and 8GB. And the first one with SL and i5 uses roughly 200 threads and it has only 50 processes. But ML i7 runs with 450 threads and 100 processes. That clearly shows how much "cleaner" SL is. And battery (both have 10% wear) but with SL it lasts for 7:30 and with ML it lasts for 5 hours max!

I'm not defending ML nor SL just saying raw facts that i can see :)


Hope it helped!

Doc69
Aug 14, 2012, 04:06 PM
I think you can safely upgrade to 10.8. I never liked Lion myself but was forced to upgrade when MobileMe ended (to get iCloud compatibility).

Now I'm quite happy on 10.8. The upgrade was very smooth and everything actually seems more stable.

Couple of things: I wouldn't be able to use 10.8 (or 10.7) without an app called TotalSpaces. This brings back Spaces from Snow Leopard. The auto save function is awkward, but I'm beginning to learn to live with it. I still think Snow Leopard was better overall, but at least 10.8 is great compared to Lion. They fixed a lot of annoying issues. SMB sharing is gone, so a WDTV for example can not access your Mac over the network. And especially annoying is the large font size and gray theme of the Finder Sidebar and Mail. But it's not a deal breaker.

sidewinder
Aug 14, 2012, 05:01 PM
And especially annoying is the large font size and gray theme of the Finder Sidebar and Mail. But it's not a deal breaker.

Go to:

Preferences --> General

Change the "Sidebar icon size" to "Small".

That was tough.....

S-

nzacl0
Aug 14, 2012, 05:24 PM
Well, I upgraded to Lion and then Mountain Lion even though I really liked snow leopard. Snow leopard seemed more 'raw' (no pun intended) than Lion or Mountain Lion, not so many cutesy features to get in the way, and less like IOS. Yes there are changes I hate (expose, Save As) and now in safari the dropping of the separate google search bar - but times move on.

It's my belief that new and different isn't always better, some things work fine just as they were designed.

The day they hide the filesystem like in IOS I'll switch to Linux full time.

Louis Wu
Aug 14, 2012, 05:45 PM
I wouldn't be able to use 10.8 (or 10.7) without an app called TotalSpaces. This brings back Spaces from Snow Leopard.

Thanks for that tip! That was the one thing holding me back from upgrading my main workstation to ML!

Louis

Icy1007
Aug 14, 2012, 07:02 PM
My opinion is that if your computer is supported by Mountain Lion, you should upgrade. Simple as that.

Krazy Bill
Aug 14, 2012, 07:29 PM
My opinion is that if your computer is supported by Mountain Lion, you should upgrade. Simple as that.

What sense does this make?

kappaknight
Aug 14, 2012, 09:05 PM
I have an early 2011 MBP. Did the Lion upgrade and reverted to SL and now I'm using ML.

To answer your questions:

1. A lot of the initial issues I had with Lion no longer applies here. Scroll still takes a tad bit to get used to but at least I can navigate back and forth in 3rd party browsers now that it's supported.

2. I'm running on an SSD, so even though I did the upgrade, things did not slow down.

3. The computer does however, freeze from time to time. When waking up, the graphics card seem to go crazy every once in awhile - none of these issues happened in SL.

4. I decided to stay this time because the Photo stream sync was more of a pro for me than the various tiny quirks that are here. It still feels a tad bit dumbed down vs. SL. (e.g. Airport Utility looks friendlier, but no way to reboot Time Capsule now.)

You still have to decide for yourself though.

sgtbob
Aug 15, 2012, 06:49 PM
FWIW - I DL Mountain Lion and installed it on my iMAC 24" Desktop unit, 3.06 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4 GB 800 MHz DDR2 SDRAM, which was working pretty well. My experience was pretty unsettling. The first thing encountered after the install was trouble with changing desktop background (it simply was inoperative). The box kept stating 'loading images', but after an hours I had to 'force quit'. The system ran slow and opening and closing files ran slow plus lots of other little issues became apparent as I attempted to explore the new OS 8. In trying to shutdown/restart, the black/white 'pinwheel' ran for over an hour and I finally had to shut it down by the off switch - not a recommended procedure, but it was the only way to get started again. Bummer!!! I contacted tech support that is available for 90 days after the purchase and after an hour of working with the problem, I was advised to DL and re-install. That I did and the system ran so slow it was evident that something was wrong. In lieu of attempting another DL, I restored my entire OS 10.7.4 - took over 8 hours to get back to my original system. I may be a dinosaur, but I will not re-install Mountain Lion until I am forced into it. I hope my experience was a limited issue and that those who installed it had better results.

bob

nightlong
Aug 15, 2012, 07:09 PM
Getting very confused about this, why some people even with clean installs are having so much trouble with ML while others are not. I thought it might be that those not having trouble weren't working the computer too hard. But ... reading the last post here, even trying to choose different screen background is a major drama.

Have just ordered an MBA, it will come with ML, feeling nervous!

sidewinder
Aug 15, 2012, 07:57 PM
Getting very confused about this, why some people even with clean installs are having so much trouble with ML while others are not.

The vast, and I mean vast, majority of people are not having problems. You only hear about the people with problems on these forums. It's not representative of reality....

S-

nightlong
Aug 15, 2012, 08:10 PM
Hope so. It's not my idea of exciting mac experience, getting it out of the box, spending hours on the phone with apple support, and on and on, holding your breath every time you use it in case it crashes or freezes. First time for me with a .0 version, I usually wait for more intrepid and tech savvy folk to ferret out the bugs over a couple of versions.

sidewinder
Aug 15, 2012, 08:43 PM
Hope so. It's not my idea of exciting mac experience, getting it out of the box, spending hours on the phone with apple support, and on and on, holding your breath every time you use it in case it crashes or freezes. First time for me with a .0 version, I usually wait for more intrepid and tech savvy folk to ferret out the bugs over a couple of versions.

If what you described were reality, Apple would have ridiculously low customer satisfaction ratings instead of the highest in the industry. I have been using the ".0" releases since 1984 and I have never had issues like you see chronicled here. I haven't done a "clean install" on the Mac Pro I have used since 2008. All upgrades. It's just some people spreading FUD.

S-

nightlong
Aug 15, 2012, 08:46 PM
Thanks Sidewinder, you've turned my waiting for new computer day back from dread to excitement and optimism!

dusk007
Aug 16, 2012, 03:26 AM
I installed ML for iCloud mostly. Didn't do proper research and testing and thought it is more than it is.

I didn't go back yet and it works well enough for the most part. Not really much better or worse, only scrolling is more fluid. The last iphoto upgrade made that faster again after it was rather slow.

I am annoyed by full screen mode. I wish I could deactivate it. Luckly some Apps like VMWare don't use it but still their own.
I cannot stand Mission Control. It is laggy slow, it is terrible at arranging non grouped windows and I don't like the grouping. It has not the multimonitor support SL had.
Slide between spaces is slow and laggy.
Considering other people don't report much of that choppy MC related animations I suppose I need a clean reinstall to get over that.

Otherwise it is as stable or unstable as SL for me. Which means it crashes and freezes but so did SL lately. Another reason why I upgraded and hoped it fixed it. New is a frequent Flash video bug that shows up on not even high temps. The plugin doesn't crash but it is only ants ;)
I work around the MC issues with Totalspace but am not really happy with the solution. Totalspaces is neither as fast as SL nor does it have the exposé integration.

I am not yet annoyed enough nor do I have the time to switch back, but I would stay with SL now.

BTW the only feature I really like is the notification bar and how you can move in. I don't like the messages as they don't look good and are often right in the way of click on tabs and stuff. I would prefer if I could only use the bar but get all temporary on screen banner delivered to growl.
Growl was so nice and customizable. It is just doing a better job.
I don't get what the new Growl does. Some say it breaks compatibility, I don't see any mention how it works with the notification bar.

elpmas
Aug 16, 2012, 03:38 AM
I jumped ship to Lion when it was released, but regretted it because of the limitations of apps. Stuck with SL until ML...and now there's no regrets. I like ML much more than Lion, and slowly becoming my favorite.

Paradoxally
Aug 16, 2012, 03:57 AM
Another vote for ML. I loved SL, and to me it's still the best OS out of the last 3 that Apple released, but ML is way more stable than Lion, fixes annoying quirks that Lion had, and is considerably faster and slightly better at RAM management.

ppnkg
Aug 16, 2012, 10:41 AM
people who had Snow Leopard, installed Lion and realized it was a terrible choice, then reinstalled Snow Leopard.


Yep, that's exactly me. I had terrible problems with Lion which were not solved by subsequent updates, so I downgraded.

I've installed ML a few days ago on an external Firewire 800 SSD disk and run it from there. Did not migrate but rather set up the system from scratch, did a fresh install of office and a few other applications, then moved files manually from my macs hdd. It runs wonderfully, smooth and fast, on my 3.06 2008 iMac.

Stuff that I was using and Lion broke work fine on ML. I've changed some of the settings I cannot get used to such as 'natural' scrolling etc, and I removed from the dock stuff that apple wants me to have but I cannot see myself using such as mission control. I was pleased to see that apple came to their senses with stuff like save as etc so the actual difference I experience from SL is minimal. I kept the launchpad, which is basically a useful shortcut to the applications folder.

So far I quite enjoy the new notifications and iMessage. Saving to iCloud (which I am using) is also very handy.

The only problem I'm having so far is with Calendar and google calendar, which as far as I can tell from what I've read online is a google issue. Mail was initially also rather unstable with my work outlook exchange account, but I've played with the settings and now works ok (problems with exchange were my main woe with Lion).

I haven't stretched the machine yet, but so far so good - ML on the external SSD feels as fast as SL is on the mac's hdd, if not faster.

I logged on to SL just once since the upgrade, and that was to check some of the setting on that side - which suggests I haven't had any reason to miss it much yet...

I suspect the clean install has contributed to the problem free upgrade, as after all 'migrating' cancels the notion of 'clean', but who knows for sure?

So far, very pleased with ML

sgtbob
Aug 16, 2012, 12:35 PM
Well, I re-purchased ML - I figured for $20 I didn't want to argue with having bought the first one that didn't show on my purchased feature under the App Store.

I DL and installed it between 3:00-5:00 AM this morning. It seems to be working pretty well at the moment. Some items are a bit slow, but we're always wanting things to be faster - just human nature I suppose and it appears to be performing ok. Anyway, my recent complaints seem to have been resolved and I am now running the OS 8 and learning its features. So, maybe things are going better today! :-) :)

iMacFarlane
Aug 16, 2012, 12:52 PM
To the OP:
I had a 2009 iMac with SL on it. I avoided Lion for about 8 months, because my computer was running well and I was shocked by the negativity surrounding Lion. Finally upgraded when it became necessary for software development.

Hate, hate, hate the Lion. Broke scores of my programs (removal of Rosetta), ran slower, less useful, ixnay on the Save As . . . , the list goes on.

Upgraded to Mountain Lion, all issues fixed (except the unfortunate Rosetta thing), snappier computer, ML is good to go. I recommend it.

Luis Ortega
Aug 16, 2012, 01:10 PM
This thread is intended to reach all of the people who had Snow Leopard, installed Lion and realized it was a terrible choice, then reinstalled Snow Leopard.

So, here is my question: since I am one of these people, I want to know from the people described above if Mountain Lion is a good choice or should I keep my Snow Leopard?

I just don't want to do the same mistake I did installing Lion and going back to Snow Leopard.

I use a Mac Pro and a MBP. I kept SL on the MP because I find it works better as a workstation OS. I put ML, and earlier, Lion, on my MBP because it's more of a toy for me and I wanted to check what the post-SL OSs were like.
For me, they are gimmicky and focused on gimmicky, frivolous stuff that's popular with the tablet and phone crowd.
When using ML, I feel like I should be able to touch the screen.

tmt
Aug 16, 2012, 01:22 PM
To OP:
I got my early 2011 mbp just before they preinstalled lion on them, so I never bothered to get it as it was my first mac. I upgraded to ML and it works great. Don't know if it's faster, but in this config I geekbenched it on 10.6.8 and got about 6800 points. Now I got 7002 points.
Never got a pic of the geekbench result on SL though, so it never really happened ;)
/J

Doc69
Aug 16, 2012, 04:02 PM
Go to:
Preferences --> General
Change the "Sidebar icon size" to "Small".


Thanks! I would have though something like this would be in the Preferences of Mail and the Finder and the general prefs. Now if I could only get the Snow Leopard side bar colors back as well!

Doc69
Aug 16, 2012, 04:38 PM
Now if I could only get the Snow Leopard side bar colors back as well!

I just found an app called SideEffects. It did the trick. Now the Finder looks exactly like it did in Snow Leopard, colored icons and all. No more squinting! :p

miata
Aug 16, 2012, 09:59 PM
Whatever you do make sure you have a fallback strategy if you upgrade...I experienced serious problems with both upgrade and Time Machine recovery on ML.

First, I have to admit that I've been using Macs exclusively since I got my first one with System 7 more than 20 years ago. OS upgrades used to be exciting, and I almost always upgraded to the latest release within a week of release.

Things are different now.

I got a new iMac with Lion a while back and ended up downgrading it back to SL. On top of the well know UI and other downgrades from SL there were serious stability problems.

The day after ML came out I did something really stupid and tried an in place upgrade of my MBP to ML. The upgrade process went well except my more than 3,000 notes did not carry over from SL. I ended up going back to a copy of SL and doing a migration upgrade to Lion and then to ML. This time everything worked fine with the upgrade. I had to change a bunch of Apple defaults like everyone else, but to be honest, it was kind of refreshing to use a new OS after so long without a change. ML was much more stable than Lion, but I was still having more frequent MS app and MacOS problems than I did with SL.

Now, the fun part. This Monday I had my system disk die. That was a bummer, but fortunately I had a Time Machine backup from earlier in the day. So, I boot into the recovery partition and restore from Time Machine. Only problem is that this time Mail was unable to restore any of my local mail boxes (I have about 300,000 messages and got a message about "running out of space" before stopping -- even though I had 125GB available. In addition to the Mail problem, there were problems with missing fonts. Apparently, there are still quite a few bugs in Time Machine for Mountain Lion and who knows what else I might discover as time went on.

Fortunately, I still had my trusty old Snow Leopard image on a separate partition. I decided to do another Mountain Lion Install and migrate from that partition. However, I knew that I was going to lose a bunch of recent notes that I created in Mountain Lion, so I copied all of my ON MY MAC notes to iCloud. I even tested to ensure that I could move them back. I also copied a bunch of recent documents to a thumb drive to restore later as well. So, I spent forever doing the install and migration and in the end everything was working -- except I couldn't get my notes back to ON MY MAC.

The Time Machine failure should have been the last straw for me, since I use my MBP for work -- but the iCloud notes bug took it over the top for me.

So, today I am back on Snow Leopard and will stay here for another six months of so until Apple shakes the bugs out of the ML upgrade and Time Machine Recovery processes. I really don't miss any of the ML stuff.

For anybody else thinking of going back to SL from ML it was fairly painless. Here are a few pointers:



I was able to archive email boxes in Mountain Lion and import them into Snow Leopard with no problem.



If you keep around a mountable ML partition you can easily move documents back to your SL disk using the SL finder.



Moving notes was a not as bad as I though. I simply "shared/emailed" all the new notes in ML to myself. I had to do one Note at a time which was a bit of a drag though. However, from SL you just drag the email messages into the Notes and they are fully usable. I did go and copy them one by one into real notes, but I'm not sure that that is really necessary.

ThomasJL
Aug 17, 2012, 06:35 PM
Excellent post, miata! Thanks for taking the time to write that. My notes are important to me, and your post has convinced me to not do an upgrade from SL to ML.

I have a question about one thing you wrote:

ML was much more stable than Lion, but I was still having more frequent MS app and MacOS problems than I did with SL.


When you say "ML was much more stable than Lion", did you mean that the very first version of ML (10.8.0) was much more stable than the very first version of Lion (10.7.0)? Or did you mean that the very first version of ML (10.8.0) was much more stable than the latest version of Lion (10.7.4)?

iHailCarlo
Aug 17, 2012, 07:06 PM
ML is better than SL and L! just my opinion its really polished, it has its hangups but I am sure they will be worked out.

sidewinder
Aug 17, 2012, 07:20 PM
Just crazy people spreading FUD......

njean777
Aug 17, 2012, 07:30 PM
I installed ML on my mbpr and after a day of using it went back to Lion. ML is just way to laggy and it feels unfinished to me. I never had any lag on lion so I just went back to it and will wait for the next os. I don't mind the changes in lion so....

miata
Aug 17, 2012, 09:50 PM
I have a question about one thing you wrote:

When you say "ML was much more stable than Lion", did you mean that the very first version of ML (10.8.0) was much more stable than the very first version of Lion (10.7.0)? Or did you mean that the very first version of ML (10.8.0) was much more stable than the latest version of Lion (10.7.4)?
I got Lion on an iMac I purchased last X-mas and added all of the patches at the time. So, whatever the latest version was at the beginning of 2012.

I was doing a lot of video and photo stuff and Lion would just hang a couple of times a day. With ML the only things that crash are MS apps and Mail.app -- a lot of times that was when I was going back and worth with connecting an external monitor. The crash frequency seemed to be slightly higher than SL.

Don't get me wrong. I think that ML is much better than Lion and has real potential. I know I'll eventually have to move from SL, but I think it would be better to wait another 6 months or so. The Time Machine problems just made me too nervous.

sidewinder
Aug 17, 2012, 10:36 PM
I never had a crash with 10.7.x and I used it from the day it came until 10.8 was released. 10.8 has not crashed on me yet and I have run it since the day it came out.

S-

ThomasJL
Aug 21, 2012, 02:30 PM
I never had a crash with 10.7.x and I used it from the day it came until 10.8 was released. 10.8 has not crashed on me yet and I have run it since the day it came out.

S-

Hey, well that settles it. Since you never had a crash with 10.7.0 and 10.8.0, Apple should just stop making bug fixes. :rolleyes:

pooryou
Aug 21, 2012, 04:01 PM
My opinion is that if your computer is supported by Mountain Lion, you should upgrade. Simple as that.

Even if it's a 2007 MacBook Pro that can only hold 4gb of RAM?

sidewinder
Aug 21, 2012, 04:44 PM
Hey, well that settles it. Since you never had a crash with 10.7.0 and 10.8.0, Apple should just stop making bug fixes. :rolleyes:

I never said that, did I? My point that the OS has not been the bug ridden pile of crap that some people would have you believe......

S-

swingerofbirch
Aug 21, 2012, 05:08 PM
I have an early 2011 MBP. Did the Lion upgrade and reverted to SL and now I'm using ML.

To answer your questions:

1. A lot of the initial issues I had with Lion no longer applies here. Scroll still takes a tad bit to get used to but at least I can navigate back and forth in 3rd party browsers now that it's supported.

2. I'm running on an SSD, so even though I did the upgrade, things did not slow down.

3. The computer does however, freeze from time to time. When waking up, the graphics card seem to go crazy every once in awhile - none of these issues happened in SL.

4. I decided to stay this time because the Photo stream sync was more of a pro for me than the various tiny quirks that are here. It still feels a tad bit dumbed down vs. SL. (e.g. Airport Utility looks friendlier, but no way to reboot Time Capsule now.)

You still have to decide for yourself though.

If you're talking about what I'm thinking about, you can just select the Time Capsule from Airport Utility (make sure it's highlighted) and select Base Station from the menu bar and then "Restart . . . "

This confused me as well because all of the other functions are accessed through the Edit button that is in the "popover" when you click on a device.

kappaknight
Aug 23, 2012, 10:43 AM
If you're talking about what I'm thinking about, you can just select the Time Capsule from Airport Utility (make sure it's highlighted) and select Base Station from the menu bar and then "Restart . . . "

This confused me as well because all of the other functions are accessed through the Edit button that is in the "popover" when you click on a device.

Wow. Thanks for the tip. :) I guess friendly doesn't lead to intuitive.

bruleke
Aug 31, 2012, 02:52 PM
The VEREDICT: I HATE ML!!!!

First of all, my machine specs:

Macbook Pro Mid 2010
i5 2.4ghz
500gb Black Scorpio
8gb Kingston
CLEAN version of ML........... TWICE. (Did it twice to check if the installation was the problem)

Q: What do I mostly do with my mac?
A: Word, Excel, PDFs, Firefox, Mail.

Q: Why do I HATE ML?
A: For the same reason I hated Lion: Firefox crashes every single day (I tried Safari and Chrome... same ***** too), computer got a little bit slower than SL, takes more time to open apps.
The worst part is when ML freezes the browser (even SAFARI!!!): NOTHING else works the same. Its like running a 486 PC with Mountain Lion! Really slow. So I have to reebot it. Pretty good, uh?

Funny thing is that it happened with Lion... the same way!

So, Apple, since the same happened with Lion, the solution would be:

A. Buy a brand new Macbook Pro or;
B. Back to a 2009 operational system (Snow Leopard).
Right?

IMPORTANT: IF YOU ARE A FANBOY, PLEASE, no whining here.

I will be back to SL tonight. At least its FAST and doesn't crash. Simple.

theBostonian
Aug 31, 2012, 11:14 PM
I was a trifle apprehensive with upgrading from Snow Leopard but in the end the decision was made for me since ML came preinstalled on a new MBP.

There are some tips and tricks to getting ML to behave like SL however, such as going into System Preferences > Accessibility > Mouse & Trackpad > Trackpad Options > Enable dragging

Then, going into Trackpad settings, disabling three finger drag and changing "Swipe between pages" from two fingers to three fingers (thereby enabling the navigation of Finder windows through the use of gestures).

Another trick to get Exposé back is to go to Mission Control (again in system prefs) and unchecking the "Group windows by application" box.

Hopefully this'll help some other Snow Leopard lovers coming to terms with ML's idiosyncrasies.

bedifferent
Aug 31, 2012, 11:26 PM
I was a trifle apprehensive with upgrading from Snow Leopard but in the end the decision was made for me since ML came preinstalled on a new MBP.

There are some tips and tricks to getting ML to behave like SL however, such as going into System Preferences > Accessibility > Mouse & Trackpad > Trackpad Options > Enable dragging

Then, going into Trackpad settings, disabling three finger drag and changing "Swipe between pages" from two fingers to three fingers (thereby enabling the navigation of Finder windows through the use of gestures).

Another trick to get Exposé back is to go to Mission Control (again in system prefs) and unchecking the "Group windows by application" box.

Hopefully this'll help some other Snow Leopard lovers coming to terms with ML's idiosyncrasies.

No way! I never knew about the three finger gesture for Finder! That's awesome.

Also, "TotalSpaces" adds 10.5/6 "Spaces" to 10.7/8. Been working with the developer for a long time on it and it's near perfect.

theBostonian
Aug 31, 2012, 11:43 PM
No way! I never knew about the three finger gesture for Finder! That's awesome.

Also, "TotalSpaces" adds 10.5/6 "Spaces" to 10.7/8. Been working with the developer for a long time on it and it's near perfect.

Glad you found it useful ^_^

I'd love to have spaces back, I'll make a note of TotalSpaces, thanks for the heads up :D

bedifferent
Sep 1, 2012, 09:21 AM
Glad you found it useful ^_^

I'd love to have spaces back, I'll make a note of TotalSpaces, thanks for the heads up :D

Check it out, it's free. I believe once he releases the 1.0 version it will be $12.00, but he won't release it until he's 100% certain it's perfect (and he's a perfectionist lol). He started it himself, and then BinaryAge, makers of "TotalFinder", bought it from him and kept him on as lead developer.

TotalSpaces (http://totalspaces.binaryage.com)

About TotalSpaces

Grid Layout
Overview grid
Overview grid backgrounds
Navigation
Multi-monitors
Hotkeys
Swiping
Mouse navigation
Transitions
Hot corners
App assignments
Full screen desktops
Overview grid app

Dewdman42
Sep 3, 2012, 03:51 PM
Count me in for the group of people that tried Lion and ran back SL. I found it slower, but particularly a few things were ruined in Lion.


Spaces
Mail
SMB


I live with Mail every single day and while the new Mail app has some cool new features, they did one thing entirely wrong which I could not find a work around for, they made it so that all messages in the list have a Bold title, regardless of whether read or not. I tried both Postbox and Sparrow to see if they would work around it, at the time they were not adequate for some reasons I can't remember. SL Mail, with a few plugins I had added to it, worked totally great and I'm still using it.

I also totally required spaces feature to be fast, snappy, and to have a fixed number of spaces where I always know where stuff is. The new Lion version tried to make it more automatic, but forsake some control for me, I hated it.

I had networking problems with SMB, some network shares I could not mount or read correctly, found lots of posts on the net about it at the time, it was a known bug of some kind. I can't remember if it was NFS or SMB.

It was definitely slower then Snow Leopard.

The only reason I even tried it was because I was tempted by iCloud. Since then I've found other ways to work around the fact that Apple won't let SL users benefit from iCloud.

I also do music/audio, and a few esoteric things did not work right with Lion.

So now here we are with ML and wondering whether they've fixed the above issues or not. I decided to buy ML and install it under parallels where I can fool around with it for a while, so that's where I am at now. Personally I'm totally happy with SL I don't ahve any need for the features they have added to Lion or ML, but sooner or later I know I will have to catch up with the times, some new programs are starting to come out that will only run on 10.7 or newer, so its a matter of time.

For me, I don't like the direction Apple is going...



Couple of things: I wouldn't be able to use 10.8 (or 10.7) without an app called TotalSpaces. This brings back Spaces from Snow Leopard.

I will check that out thanks

upgrade. :) Expose's back to normal, and it's time to move on from SL.

Can you please explain what you mean when you say expose is back to normal?

I just found an app called SideEffects. It did the trick. Now the Finder looks exactly like it did in Snow Leopard, colored icons and all. No more squinting! :p

Interesting, what is really so different in the finder between ML and SL?

Mari0-br0s
Sep 6, 2012, 09:07 AM
I'm glad I've found this topic, since I've been through the same experience. Was using SL, than upgraded at launch for Lion. Lion happened to be the worst 30$ I've ever spent. Waited until 10.7.2 to see f any improvement would come.

I reverted back to SL. And god this was a relief.

I've read most of the messages in this topic, so I'm quite interested in trying ML. I'll have t try it in a virtual machine since my Mac is too old for ML, I'm running a good old Santa Rosa MBP. I'm looking to upgrade my laptop, but I want to make sure ML is something I ould be satisfied, otherwise I'll go back to PC while Windows 7 is still available (Windows 8 will be crap).

The majors problems I had with Lion were:

-major system instability compared to SL
-system was slower than on SL, it feeled like Leopard
-I bought Lion for Filevault 2... and it failed me big time, I couldn't unlock my drive to repair the permissions in the recovery partition. My password nor the 24 digit key that we have to note when activating FileVault 2 was working... had to reformat and reinstall Lion....
-I couldn't restore my Time Machine backup from my Time Capsule via the recovery partition... had to transfer manually on a USB hard drive the .sparsebundle image, then plug it to my Mac. This took like 22 hours of transfering data...
-I've been having recuring problem with the Mail.app, email were being downloaded but were not appearing in the inbox. Sent messages were getting stock in the outbox (sooo Outlook behavior)
-Mission Control replaced the most useful feature of OS X. The Expose view that I use 9865 times a day
-I hated the new Address Book interface. You couldn't drag and drop a contact to a group, since they're on two separate "pages". And the paperbook look was ugly.
-I had also a ******** of wifi issue, looked like a butched kernel extention for my hardware.
-Lost of Rosetta (since then I'v found alternative to evry old PPC apps I had, no longer an issue)
-Lost of QuickTime Pro 7 (QuickTime X is ****)

All of the above were major problems that I couldn't just go around.

I also disliked the following:

-The Finder left bar was all gray, it was more difficult to easily identify the folder I wanted to select
-I've never been able to adapt to the revert scrolling. I've been able to deactivate this so it wasn't such a big deal.
-The full screen app were pissing me off, I do not have an advanced trackpad on my MBP and the Escape key or command+Q wasn't working to exit full screen... somehow I had to hard reboot with the power button, that was so stupid.
-The "feature" to relaunch every apps that were open after a system crash was making my computer unusable for a long period of time because a lot of icons were bouncing and trying to open at the same time (now I have an SSD, but back then...I almost killed myself)
-I didn't like the new iCal look. The fact that you can't see your calendar list at the same time of your calendar was non functionnal for me, since I have about 20 different calendars and I do not know all of their respective colors by heart.
-I didn't like the Finder and Mail left bar character size, but I managed to bring them back to SL style, so no big deal.
-I didn't like the new Mail presentation, but was able to set it back as in SL

Here is the only features that I bought it for:

FileVault 2
Time Machine backup FileVault while LOGGED IN

So if any of you can tell me what I've been fixed, what havn't, it would be great. Meanwhile I'll download ML from somewhere and try it out in a VM.

thanks,
Phil

davelanger
Sep 8, 2012, 07:28 PM
I am really glad I found this thread, I came here looking to see if I should upgrade to ML from SL but it looks I should still wait.

MichaelLAX
Sep 8, 2012, 07:58 PM
To the OP:
...Broke scores of my programs (removal of Rosetta)...

Options for workarounds to Rosetta:

1. Parition your hard drive or add external hard drive and install Snow Leopard (and Rosetta; it is an optional install) on it and use the "dual boot" method of running your old PowerPC applications;

2. Upgrade your PPC apps or find alternatives; and/or

3. The method I use for most PPC apps except graphic intensive games: Install Snow Leopard (with Rosetta) into Parallels 7 (or now 8).

NOTE: STEP ONE of the instructions linked below currently only works in Snow Leopard or Lion for now, so make the modified image file of the Snow Leopard Install DVD BEFORE you upgrade to Mountain Lion.

Full Snow Leopard Installation Instructions Here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1365439)

[click on images to enlarge]

jk73
Sep 8, 2012, 08:26 PM
I like Mountain Lion except for Safari, which is SLOW, SLOW, SLOW on my new rMBP. Sometimes it's lightning fast, but more often than not, there's a multi-second lag between clicking a link or otherwise requesting a web page and the page loading. The progress bar often stalls on the domain name, as if it's having trouble resolving the web page before it begins to load. If this was a two-day thing, I'd suspect the ISP (Time Warner), but it's been happening since I installed 10.8.1. (I don't remember if this happened under 10.8; I only installed it a few days before 10.8.1 was released.)

Ryan9
Sep 24, 2012, 09:20 PM
I just don't want to do the same mistake I did installing Lion and going back to Snow Leopard.

I think some of the irritation with your thread is that some may actually be interested in helping you... if you'd just say what the problem was before so they could offer you some constructive advice. I could tell you about speed/performance and then it could still be a huge mistake for you if, say, you're a Quicken junkie (because it's not supported on ML). My guess would be that you go through this level of agony anytime you're exposed to change. Just take the plunge and see how it goes.

MichaelLAX
Sep 24, 2012, 09:24 PM
... if, say, you're a Quicken junkie (because it's not supported on ML)...
BAD EXAMPLE (worked on Mountain Lion even before this update) (http://quicken.intuit.com/personal-finance-software/quicken-2007-osx-lion.jsp)

Ryan9
Oct 9, 2012, 04:57 PM
BAD EXAMPLE (worked on Mountain Lion even before this update) (http://quicken.intuit.com/personal-finance-software/quicken-2007-osx-lion.jsp)

Sigh. Soooooo not the point. But since you brought it to the forefront, yes, you could potentially use Quicken but your options are to use the old 2007 version or the stripped down Quicken Express. Intuit has always had issues about dragging their heels supporting Macs. REGARDLESS, asking "Will I be happy with Mountain Lion?" is a little silly unless someone knows what your priorities are. I think that was infinitely clear.

MichaelLAX
Oct 9, 2012, 05:23 PM
Posting incorrect information is always on point to be corrected!

You left the distinct impression that Quicken will work in Snow Leopard but not work in Mountain Lion; that impression is incorrect. Quicken for the Mac works EXACTLY the same in Mountain Lion as it does in Snow Leopard!

Others come into these threads, read these posts and hope to rely on their accuracy...

And that's "Mr. Chief to you", Bub!

colourfastt
Oct 9, 2012, 06:44 PM
I think you can safely upgrade to 10.8. I never liked Lion myself but was forced to upgrade when MobileMe ended (to get iCloud compatibility).

Now I'm quite happy on 10.8. The upgrade was very smooth and everything actually seems more stable.

Couple of things: I wouldn't be able to use 10.8 (or 10.7) without an app called TotalSpaces. This brings back Spaces from Snow Leopard. The auto save function is awkward, but I'm beginning to learn to live with it. I still think Snow Leopard was better overall, but at least 10.8 is great compared to Lion. They fixed a lot of annoying issues. SMB sharing is gone, so a WDTV for example can not access your Mac over the network. And especially annoying is the large font size and gray theme of the Finder Sidebar and Mail. But it's not a deal breaker.

"Awkward" is being overly generous.

throAU
Oct 9, 2012, 09:21 PM
I upgraded to Snow Leopard, Lion and Mountain Lion on week of release.


Lion today after 10.7.4 is nothing like Lion version 10.7.0 as far as performance goes.

Mountain Lion is superior in every way to Lion.



IMHO - you should either upgrade to 10.8, or start looking for a new software platform - Linux, Windows, whatever.

10.6 support is not going to last forever, and those out there holding onto 10.6 are going to end up being the Mac equivalent of Windows XP users in coming years. A pool of machines out there on the internet that no longer get security updates and end up getting used to spread malware.

closetnerd
Oct 24, 2012, 03:20 PM
I had ML and went back to SL for me the main reasons were I dont care about facebook integration or twitter for that matter, also my wifi would drop no matter what I did and I was sick of it. There are some features I miss but I think some of them can be made to work with SL like calendar sync

RSL
Nov 9, 2012, 03:13 AM
I moved to Lion on my work machine after waiting for some time after it came out.

It was sluggish compared to SL, mainly due to the constant caching. (Of course this problem is the reason why they created the Fusion Drive.) WiFi was constantly dropping requiring relogin/restart. When the problems persisted in 10.7.4, I upgraded back to SL.

Although Dropbox does a similar job, I do miss versions (though the scrolling through the versions needs serious work if you have something like 30 versions of a long document a day).

Sveto
Nov 13, 2012, 07:32 PM
From your description, all your trouble is with 8G Kingston ram. LIon and M. Lion are more demanding on ram quality. Buy Crucial, or the same as the original brand. Pay close attention to the speed, it has to be the same as original. I have the same lappy as you and first I had it with 7200rpm, than SSD. Boy that puppy is fast and stable with all first SL, than Lion and now ML. Avoid Kingston memory at all cost. Also flash from them is a real ****.

The VEREDICT: I HATE ML!!!!

First of all, my machine specs:

Macbook Pro Mid 2010
i5 2.4ghz
500gb Black Scorpio
8gb Kingston
CLEAN version of ML........... TWICE. (Did it twice to check if the installation was the problem)

Q: What do I mostly do with my mac?
A: Word, Excel, PDFs, Firefox, Mail.

Q: Why do I HATE ML?
A: For the same reason I hated Lion: Firefox crashes every single day (I tried Safari and Chrome... same ***** too), computer got a little bit slower than SL, takes more time to open apps.
The worst part is when ML freezes the browser (even SAFARI!!!): NOTHING else works the same. Its like running a 486 PC with Mountain Lion! Really slow. So I have to reebot it. Pretty good, uh?

Funny thing is that it happened with Lion... the same way!

So, Apple, since the same happened with Lion, the solution would be:

A. Buy a brand new Macbook Pro or;
B. Back to a 2009 operational system (Snow Leopard).
Right?

IMPORTANT: IF YOU ARE A FANBOY, PLEASE, no whining here.

I will be back to SL tonight. At least its FAST and doesn't crash. Simple.

Cave Man
Nov 18, 2012, 08:55 AM
I have to say, this thread really reflects my position as well. I have been using Macs since the early 1990s and Lion and Mountain Lion have been stunningly troublesome. I have no idea who at Apple decided to release such crap, but Snow Leopard is definitely the apex of stability and reliability for Apple OSes. Since then, it's been downhill.

Krazy Bill
Nov 18, 2012, 10:09 AM
I have to say, this thread really reflects my position as well. I have been using Macs since the early 1990s and Lion and Mountain Lion have been stunningly troublesome. I have no idea who at Apple decided to release such crap, but Snow Leopard is definitely the apex of stability and reliability for Apple OSes. Since then, it's been downhill.

Keep in mind that SL was the last of the methodical releases that didn't conform to this new and rushed release schedule which brings us Lion and now Mountain Lion. The days of 8 OSX updates are over. We're more likely to see just 5 from here forward.

My issues with Lion/ML have more to do with Apple's foray into "consumerism" with its iOS undertones. Let us hope, as Apple's stock continues to tank and more executives find their heads on the chopping block (instead of up their arses), that Apple revisits what an OS needs to be.

Personally, I have put Apple on notice. If OSX 10.9 looks to be more of the same I'll abandon the platform - devices and all. Even though we have iPhones and iPads in the family, our macs are considered the workhorse when we're done "playing".

I will certainly miss the build quality. :(

MichaelLAX
Nov 18, 2012, 12:04 PM
[deleted by poster-ooops posted B4 my morning coffee!]

iThinkergoiMac
Nov 18, 2012, 12:18 PM
I, at least, have had very few issues with Lion and Mountain Lion. Lion was a bit slow, but Mountain Lion fixed that. I never had the WiFi issues that many people reported in Lion either.

As to this supposed move toward consumerism, I welcome it! So far as I can tell, Apple has not actually removed anything from the OS that we consider necessary for power users. I will grant that there haven't been as many advances as some would like in the areas of file management, but that doesn't bother me since I use a Finder replacement anyway (though I guess it does bother me on principle). The Unix underpinnings are still there, and there have been significant improvements to security and power as well (OpenCL and Grand Central anyone?).

Desktop computing has matured to the point where it's very difficult to come with revolutionary improvements every time. I'm not saying they can't be had, but the days of early Classic Mac OS and OS X are over. At some point, someone will come up with something that completely changes how we interact with our computers, and the cycle will start anew. But until then, enjoy the fact that your Mac and iDevices are more in sync and easier to use than ever before. After all, isn't that the point of improving OS X, to make it both more powerful and easier to use?

WSR
Nov 18, 2012, 02:01 PM
I, at least, have had very few issues with Lion and Mountain Lion. Lion was a bit slow, but Mountain Lion fixed that. I never had the WiFi issues that many people reported in Lion either.

As to this supposed move toward consumerism, I welcome it! So far as I can tell, Apple has not actually removed anything from the OS that we consider necessary for power users. I will grant that there haven't been as many advances as some would like in the areas of file management, but that doesn't bother me since I use a Finder replacement anyway (though I guess it does bother me on principle). The Unix underpinnings are still there, and there have been significant improvements to security and power as well (OpenCL and Grand Central anyone?).

Desktop computing has matured to the point where it's very difficult to come with revolutionary improvements every time. I'm not saying they can't be had, but the days of early Classic Mac OS and OS X are over. At some point, someone will come up with something that completely changes how we interact with our computers, and the cycle will start anew. But until then, enjoy the fact that your Mac and iDevices are more in sync and easier to use than ever before. After all, isn't that the point of improving OS X, to make it both more powerful and easier to use?

What about:
1. Grid based Spaces, which I find very useful to have certain apps in the same position of the grid. I personally use 9 Spaces in SL which is possible in ML, but it would be more cumbersome to all 9 in a row instead of a 3X3 grid.

2. A Full-Screen mode which kills a 2nd monitor. I would think most power users would have at least 2 monitors, and would want different apps on each window. For example, the main app in Full-Screen mode on 1 monitor, and finder windows containing the files on a 2nd monitor. This is possible in SL, but not in ML's Full-Screen mode.

I definitely feel Apple removed some functions that "power users" use. Which is why I'm still with SL, and think that ML's Mission Control ISN'T more powerful or easier to use.

iThinkergoiMac
Nov 18, 2012, 02:20 PM
What about:
1. Grid based Spaces, which I find very useful to have certain apps in the same position of the grid. I personally use 9 Spaces in SL which is possible in ML, but it would be more cumbersome to all 9 in a row instead of a 3X3 grid.

True, I hardly ever use Spaces, so I completely forgot about that. Good point!

2. A Full-Screen mode which kills a 2nd monitor. I would think most power users would have at least 2 monitors, and would want different apps on each window. For example, the main app in Full-Screen mode on 1 monitor, and finder windows containing the files on a 2nd monitor. This is possible in SL, but not in ML's Full-Screen mode.

FWIW, the Lion/Mountain Lion FS mode doesn't disable the 2nd monitor inherently, it's just that 99% of apps aren't coded to use it. For example, FCPX DOES use the 2nd monitor in FS mode. That being said, I think it could obviously be handled much better.

However, FS was added in Lion, which means that the takeover of the 2nd monitor by the FS mode isn't a feature lost, but a feature that needs to be added so my original point (for the most part) remains. To me, ML's Mission Control is easier and more useful than SL's Exposé...

Krazy Bill
Nov 18, 2012, 03:53 PM
FWIW, the Lion/Mountain Lion FS mode doesn't disable the 2nd monitor inherently, it's just that 99% of apps aren't coded to use it.What's the difference? Every single Full Screen application coded to Apple's specs disables the 2nd Monitor.

iThinkergoiMac
Nov 18, 2012, 10:05 PM
What's the difference? Every single Full Screen application coded to Apple's specs disables the 2nd Monitor.

So FCPX, made by Apple, doesn't conform to Apple's own specs? Because FCPX does use the 2nd monitor in FS mode.

I'm just making sure we're clear that the 2nd monitor isn't being disabled, but taken over by the app and not used. The end result for the user is that the screen is effectively disabled, so I guess it depends on how technical we're getting. That was really a small part of my overal post, so I'm not really going to say more about it unless you want to discuss it further.

Simplicated
Nov 18, 2012, 10:16 PM
So FCPX, made by Apple, doesn't conform to Apple's own specs? Because FCPX does use the 2nd monitor in FS mode.

I'm just making sure we're clear that the 2nd monitor isn't being disabled, but taken over by the app and not used. The end result for the user is that the screen is effectively disabled, so I guess it depends on how technical we're getting. That was really a small part of my overal post, so I'm not really going to say more about it unless you want to discuss it further.

FCPX has special code to show the video on the 2nd screen. Most applications don't.

Krazy Bill
Nov 18, 2012, 11:01 PM
I'm just making sure we're clear that the 2nd monitor isn't being disabled, but taken over by the app and not used. The end result for the user is that the screen is effectively disabled,

And I'm not clear what point you're trying to make. If the 2nd monitor doesn't work, it's not Apple's fault?

so I guess it depends on how technical we're getting. What does "technical" have to do with it? It simply doesn't work as any user would expect and god only knows why. You can tout all the technicalities you want but they would still defy common sensibility.

iThinkergoiMac
Nov 19, 2012, 05:15 AM
And I'm not clear what point you're trying to make. If the 2nd monitor doesn't work, it's not Apple's fault?

What does "technical" have to do with it? It simply doesn't work as any user would expect and god only knows why. You can tout all the technicalities you want but they would still defy common sensibility.

Did you conveniently ignore the part where I said this point was a small part of my overall point and that Apple implemented it terribly?! You don't have to convince me that it's done poorly, that's painfully obvious. It's just interesting to me that the 2nd screen CAN be used in FS mode, just that no apps beside FCPX do.

frittino
Nov 19, 2012, 05:52 PM
I started to be a Mac user in 2009 with Snow Leopard ... it was great after 14 years on Windows. Moving to Lion it was so so ... now I moved to ML and I will probably switch back to Windows world!!!

ML is like Vista for Apple ... of course most of the newbie will love it.
But I work in IT since 1991 and I can say without a doubt Mountain Lion is a fiasco.
It's incredibly slow ... I got a new i5 MacBook Pro with 8GB RAM and I discovered my old core duo was faster.

Really notifications is useless like mission control and other new apparently cool features. And it seems Microsoft won't develop anymore Office for Mac and majority of the business world is on Office platform.
So to have fun Mac is fine but Mountain Lion is just a toy ... not for working.

Probably OSX decadence started when Bertrand Serlet left Apple.

Shame on you Apple!

Badagri
Nov 19, 2012, 09:50 PM
ML is like Vista for Apple ... of course most of the newbie will love it.
But I work in IT since 1991 and I can say without a doubt Mountain Lion is a fiasco.
It's incredibly slow ... I got a new i5 MacBook Pro with 8GB RAM and I discovered my old core duo was faster.


Ivy Bridge?

sidewinder
Nov 20, 2012, 01:48 AM
I started to be a Mac user in 2009 with Snow Leopard ... it was great after 14 years on Windows. Moving to Lion it was so so ... now I moved to ML and I will probably switch back to Windows world!!!

ML is like Vista for Apple ... of course most of the newbie will love it.
But I work in IT since 1991 and I can say without a doubt Mountain Lion is a fiasco.
It's incredibly slow ... I got a new i5 MacBook Pro with 8GB RAM and I discovered my old core duo was faster.

Really notifications is useless like mission control and other new apparently cool features. And it seems Microsoft won't develop anymore Office for Mac and majority of the business world is on Office platform.
So to have fun Mac is fine but Mountain Lion is just a toy ... not for working.

Probably OSX decadence started when Bertrand Serlet left Apple.

Shame on you Apple!

Hogwash.................

S-

cooky560
Nov 23, 2012, 04:37 AM
After reading this I'm glad I'm not the only person experiencing silly slow down with Mountain Lion. It's made my i3 3.06Ghz mac perform like an old 200mhz Laptop running Windows 95 I have in my loft. In fact on reviving the laptop for the purposes of experimentation its performance is faster than MLs on my 2010 iMac! SL was lightning fast, now even the UI is slow, what have you done Apple?

I have 16GB Crucial RAM, and a 7200 RPM HDD.

gpat
Nov 23, 2012, 04:55 AM
Snow Leopard was considerably lighter and more stable than Lion, but the new features were worth it to me.
Now, Mountain Lion is better than Snow Leopard in every way, except for a little drop in battery life.

Now SL feels cluttered and counterintuitive to me, features like the Mission Control and the Notification Center provide an enormous increase in productivity. I loved the new Spaces from day one as well. Security improvements at system level and FileVault 2 are also crucial to me.

BTW I'm using a 2011 13" MBP with 8GB RAM, a 128GB SSD for the system and the original 320GB HDD in the optibay as the user folder. Took a little Unix tinkering to get it working, but now it's fast and versatile.

Joseph Farrugia
Nov 23, 2012, 05:39 AM
10.6 support is not going to last forever, and those out there holding onto 10.6 are going to end up being the Mac equivalent of Windows XP users in coming years. A pool of machines out there on the internet that no longer get security updates and end up getting used to spread malware.

That's a load of FUD; Snow Leopard is still a very viable, stable, fast & productive OS especially for image management power users, & will still be years & years from from now.

nightlong
Nov 23, 2012, 06:32 AM
I've still got snow leopard on my iMac, it is a great system. I've still got tiger on my even older mini mac, has also been very reliable but is making odd noises, on death row now.

Mountain lion on my Air. Feels a bit edgy, still has bugs, but I love a lot of things about it. If you only have one computer you have to upgrade or live with ever more limitations via an unsupported OS as well as apps you can't update.

But it depends what you do with your gear. I spend half my time writing and so for that I could still get by with my 2003 MacBook and a screen. It's still working perfectly, with panther! I gave it to a friend who still uses it every day for things her iPad can't do.

My needs are changing, and I'm upgrading this year more than I ever have at one time because I want the 3 main tools I use now to be same generation and all synced and happy together ... Ipad4, iphone5, 2012 Air. I will keep the iMac with snow leopard, until it dies. I could upgrade it to ML but why bother, it works fine as it is, and i have the Air for the new things SL can't do. But if it was my only computer I would upgrade to ML, no question.

Cave Man
Nov 23, 2012, 10:39 AM
I see Apple is selling Snow Leopard once again. Maybe it will be resurrected!

Krazy Bill
Nov 23, 2012, 11:01 AM
I see Apple is selling Snow Leopard once again. Maybe it will be resurrected!Uh... no.

Unless they just slap a version number of 10.9 on it. (Which incidentally would be fine for me).

Cave Man
Nov 23, 2012, 12:29 PM
Uh... no.

Unless they just slap a version number of 10.9 on it. (Which incidentally would be fine for me).

Uh... humor. (I guess I should have put the smiley face in.)

throAU
Nov 24, 2012, 07:07 AM
That's a load of FUD; Snow Leopard is still a very viable, stable, fast & productive OS especially for image management power users, & will still be years & years from from now.

I'm not saying it isn't - today. I have it running on my Mini.

What i AM saying is that the support will not last forever, and you need to make plans to migrate for when support does run out, no doubt as soon as 10.9 is released, if not before.

Sticking your head in the sand, and staying with 10.6 forever isn't going to remain viable forever - at some point, likely within 12 months, apple is going to stop supporting it with security fixes.

Krazy Bill
Nov 24, 2012, 10:24 AM
at some point, likely within 12 months, apple is going to stop supporting it with security fixes.I'd be more concerned with SL becoming unusable when the machines that still run it die. You'd be surprised at the number of people that buy new macs only to discover they can't run Snow Leopard on them. That's why I'm trying to adapt to ML (kicking and screaming).

We'll see what 10.9 brings.

Cave Man
Nov 24, 2012, 11:06 AM
What i AM saying is that the support will not last forever, and you need to make plans to migrate for when support does run out, no doubt as soon as 10.9 is released, if not before.

I don't understand the rationale for this argument. Can you elaborate?

Sticking your head in the sand, and staying with 10.6 forever isn't going to remain viable forever - at some point, likely within 12 months, apple is going to stop supporting it with security fixes.

What connection is there between Apple dropping support for an OS and the ability to continue using that OS? I still have a Mac running Leopard and it works just fine.

Joseph Farrugia
Nov 24, 2012, 01:48 PM
I'm not saying it isn't - today. I have it running on my Mini.

What i AM saying is that the support will not last forever, and you need to make plans to migrate for when support does run out, no doubt as soon as 10.9 is released, if not before.

Sticking your head in the sand, and staying with 10.6 forever isn't going to remain viable forever - at some point, likely within 12 months, apple is going to stop supporting it with security fixes.

↑↑↑More FUD from yet another member of this forum :rolleyes:

Morod
Nov 24, 2012, 02:16 PM
I'm happy with SL 10.6.8
So I've never even tried Lion or ML, although both will run on my iMac.
Go SL! :)

TennisandMusic
Nov 24, 2012, 02:38 PM
↑↑↑More FUD from yet another member of this forum :rolleyes:

How do you figure? How long do you think Apple is going to support 10.6?

iThinkergoiMac
Nov 24, 2012, 04:08 PM
↑↑↑More FUD from yet another member of this forum :rolleyes:

I agree with TennisAndMusic... how long do you really think Apple is going to support SL?

Joseph Farrugia
Nov 24, 2012, 05:35 PM
I agree with TennisAndMusic... how long do you really think Apple is going to support SL?

Seriously: so macs using older versions of OS X suddenly stop working once apple drops "support" for that particular OS?
That is why I call FUD.

What support would you need?
(e.g.:AV solutions have existed for a long time)

Badagri
Nov 24, 2012, 10:02 PM
I'd be more concerned with SL becoming unusable when the machines that still run it die. You'd be surprised at the number of people that buy new macs only to discover they can't run Snow Leopard on them. That's why I'm trying to adapt to ML (kicking and screaming).

That bad you say?

We'll see what 10.9 brings.

Sadly thats where mine ends. Mountain Lion is the last for this model. Hopefully I'll be on a new Mac Pro by then.

Dewdman42
Nov 24, 2012, 11:41 PM
As far as I can tell, SL is definitely where I will be staying for quite some time to come. Lion and ML add nothing at all that I need and only take away things I liked. And my own experience has shown Lion and ML to be slower then SL on the same hardware. Yes Apple is putting stuff into their SDK that will only run on Lion or Mountain Lion, so sooner or later eventually I will have to upgrade to something, but for my part I'm not changing anything until Apple gets it together, Lion and ML were both steps backward. Hopefully by the time I am forced to upgrade the OS, Apple will have made it work right.

pionata
Nov 25, 2012, 10:59 AM
Still on SN and I do not wan't to leave it one bit after trying for a good amount of hours ML. It's quite similar, but expose and space are broken, and most applications take more ram for no justifiable reason other than greedy people forcing you to spend cash upgrading.

I totally dislike he direction Apple is going. There was a huge drop in computer longevity when they moved to Intel, and now they are going the Microsoft way of coding their os in order to cripple down good computers that are 3 years old.

They are cheating the naive users in order to sell more computers. It' just wrong.

I use to love Apple, but now it's not the case at all. Stability for professionals is gone. Osx has become a cool toy, like the ipads.

iThinkergoiMac
Nov 25, 2012, 01:00 PM
Seriously: so macs using older versions of OS X suddenly stop working once apple drops "support" for that particular OS?
That is why I call FUD.

No one is claiming that the computer will just stop working. Most business prefer to keep their systems supported than out of date. Most customers, too.

What support would you need?

Security updates, if nothing else. Those are only somewhat important.

Joseph Farrugia
Nov 25, 2012, 03:05 PM
No one is claiming that the computer will just stop working. Most business prefer to keep their systems supported than out of date. Most customers, too.

Hogwash. Most businesses (worldwide, including & especially multinationals) will not fix it if it is not broken, or impairs their workflow.

Security updates, if nothing else. Those are only somewhat important.
Somewhat, like having a decent AV software.

iThinkergoiMac
Nov 25, 2012, 08:12 PM
Somewhat, like having a decent AV software.

Obviously, if something breaks what you need entirely, then you wouldn't use it.

Still, our point is that Apple WILL stop supporting SL soon, likely within 12 months. That doesn't mean you have to do anything about it, but denying it doesn't make any sense. It's not FUD to speak the truth.

throAU
Nov 25, 2012, 08:52 PM
Seriously: so macs using older versions of OS X suddenly stop working once apple drops "support" for that particular OS?

You need to work on your reading comprehension.

That isn't what I said.

They will stop getting security updates.

However, this does mean they start becoming progressively less safe to use on-line as per below:



----------

I don't understand the rationale for this argument. Can you elaborate?


The rationale is this: IF snow leopard has zero security holes in it to be found, it will be the first such operating system in the history of software.

Which means, more likely, when security updates stop happening (and they will) then any newly discovered security holes will go un-patched.

Which means machines running SL at that point will be vulnerable to new malware - and no fix for the hole will be forthcoming.


In short: whether it is apple, microsoft, linux, or whatever - running an OS that is past end of support is running the gauntlet, security wise. If you're planning to do this, good luck (and I would recommend using a different machine to browse the internet, once that happens).

Cave Man
Nov 25, 2012, 09:12 PM
You need to work on your reading comprehension. That isn't what I said.

I interpreted what you said the same way - that is, without support from Apple SL would no longer be functional. But you have clarified that here.

In short: whether it is apple, microsoft, linux, or whatever - running an OS that is past end of support is running the gauntlet, security wise. If you're planning to do this, good luck (and I would recommend using a different machine to browse the internet, once that happens).

I've never worried about security issues with my Macs, and I don't think they're a significant problem. If that day ever comes, then I'll do something about it. But until then it'll be business as usual for me.

Obviously, if something breaks what you need entirely, then you wouldn't use it.

Yeah, man. No Quake or Unreal, no Lion or Mountain Lion! ;)

throAU
Nov 25, 2012, 09:31 PM
I've never worried about security issues with my Macs, and I don't think they're a significant problem.

This is a judgement call.

However, with apple pushing gatekeeper (it has been backported to 10.7) and removing Java from the base install, I don't believe they share your optimisim (neither do I).

The mac isn't a tiny share of the market any more and it is becoming more worthwhile to write exploits for.


Waiting until you get hacked (and potentially have your identity/bank details sniffed) is an interesting perspective. No one ever thinks they'll get hacked, until they do.


This isn't an apple-fud thing. I've been pushing our users here to get off XP (i'm an enterprise network admin by day) as soon as possible too - because it is simply lacking a lot of newer security features available in Vista, 7 and 8.

Exact same reason I believe people should be looking to get off Snow Leopard; upgrade to ML or Lion, or plan their migration strategy to an alternative platform with support now.

Right now, whilst still supported - you're fine. But when support runs out, you need a plan. Whinging about how you hate the new OS and refusing to upgrade isn't really going to work out forever.

InfinitiG
Nov 25, 2012, 11:13 PM
ML is excellent
If it had the quick shutdown/startups like SL did, it would be perfect

RSL
Nov 26, 2012, 12:17 AM
This is a judgement call.

However, with apple pushing gatekeeper (it has been backported to 10.7) and removing Java from the base install, I don't believe they share your optimisim (neither do I).

The mac isn't a tiny share of the market any more and it is becoming more worthwhile to write exploits for.

This is interesting. Could you name a few examples (aside from 3rd party (e.g. Java) vulnerability)?

makaveli559m
Nov 26, 2012, 01:58 AM
It was really stupid in Apples part for not supporting 32bit EFI bunch of idiots making people buy these suppose 64 bit machines that yes can run 64 bit but not 64 bit kernal and drivers? But yet on the Windows side it doesnt have an issue running 64 bit applications and drivers. Its an oxymoron thing to do. I recently bought a 2.1 Mac Pro some what disappointed I cant put in Mountain Lion but it works great with SL or Lion and even works super great with Windows 7 64 bit.

throAU
Nov 26, 2012, 03:15 AM
This is interesting. Could you name a few examples (aside from 3rd party (e.g. Java) vulnerability)?

http://www.geek.com/articles/apple/macbook-first-to-fall-at-pwn2own-2011-20110310/

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9129978/Researcher_cracks_Mac_in_10_seconds_at_PWN2OWN_wins_5k


http://www.zdnet.com/apple-fixes-snow-leopard-and-safari-vulnerabilities-3040092531/


There are heaps out there, that was a 60 second web search.

Vulnerabilities aren't just about turning your machine into a zombie for a botnet. Identity/credential theft is just as, if not more of a concern.

If you're actually interested, keep an eye on www.cert.org

eg:

http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/byid?searchview

Seach for "OS X"


There are heaps. Yes, apple patches them. For currently supported operating systems.


Again, this isn't hating on OS X. I love OS X. But, most software has vulnerabilties, and OS X is no exception. They just haven't been effectively exploited in the wild yet because Mac users generally keep up to date. Staying on SL once it is past end of support is not staying up to date, however.

Note: just because there isn't a heap of mac malware out there yet, it doesn't mean it is impossible. plenty of proof of concepts have been used to win hacking contests....

----------

Its an oxymoron thing to do.

Do you know what that word means? I don't think you do.

RSL
Nov 26, 2012, 04:35 AM
http://www.geek.com/articles/apple/macbook-first-to-fall-at-pwn2own-2011-20110310/

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9129978/Researcher_cracks_Mac_in_10_seconds_at_PWN2OWN_wins_5k


http://www.zdnet.com/apple-fixes-snow-leopard-and-safari-vulnerabilities-3040092531/


There are heaps out there, that was a 60 second web search.

Vulnerabilities aren't just about turning your machine into a zombie for a botnet. Identity/credential theft is just as, if not more of a concern.

If you're actually interested, keep an eye on www.cert.org

eg:

http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/byid?searchview

Seach for "OS X"


Thanks for the links! Very useful information. I will be keeping an eye out on the net.

Looking at those first 3 links, it seems that the vulnerabilities lie in Safari, so if one used an updated browser (firefox, chrome, etc.) then no problem, right?

In the other link, the bulk of the vulnerabilities are pre-SL, although there are a couple for fonts which are indeed OSX vulnerabilities. Thanks again.

Joseph Farrugia
Nov 26, 2012, 11:11 AM
Right now, whilst still supported - you're fine. But when support runs out, you need a plan. Whinging about how you hate the new OS and refusing to upgrade isn't really going to work out forever.

This (the above) is simply FUD; I know you have to justify your job & its existence, but the Freudian slip at the end ("whinging how you ……") gave you away.

Older OS's will become less & less the target of malicious attack once newer ones become the mainstream, not to mention the fact that 3rd party solutions & a good sys admin plan can take care of your worries. ("your" in a general sense, you might need something more than that; YMMV)

Snow Leopard is fine for a good while from now, the "in the future" argument could be applied to any OS including the most recent, so is a moot point.

miata
Nov 26, 2012, 11:35 AM
My attitude is that SL is the best OS for me right now -- and I've tried ML. When I have problems with one of the 5 Macs in the house I'll look again at "upgrading." The longer I wait the better chance that I have to upgrade to something that is actually better than SL.

My guess is that I can probably hold off for at least another year or two -- and it will likely be a new hardware purchase that forces me to an upgrade.

Krazy Bill
Nov 26, 2012, 12:10 PM
The longer I wait the better chance that I have to upgrade to something that is actually better than SL.What logic is this? :confused:

and it will likely be a new hardware purchase that forces me to an upgrade.

Not "likely". It will definitely force you to upgrade your OS.

miata
Nov 26, 2012, 12:16 PM
What logic is this? :confused:


Well, I think that ML is a better than Lion, so Apple seems to be changing direction. Hopefully, Apple will take an interest in getting their old installed base moved forward.

Not "likely". It will definitely force you to upgrade your OS.
I mean that it is "likely" a hardware upgrade that will force me to do an OS upgrade -- as opposed to software driving the change. I purchased a refurbished iMac just a year ago because I knew that it was the last to support SL.

throAU
Nov 26, 2012, 06:53 PM
This (the above) is simply FUD; I know you have to justify your job & its existence, .



Mate, I don't have to justify my job at all. People have been willing to pay hundreds of dollars per hour for my services since 1996, because I know what I'm doing.

throAU
Nov 26, 2012, 07:05 PM
Thanks for the links! Very useful information. I will be keeping an eye out on the net.

Looking at those first 3 links, it seems that the vulnerabilities lie in Safari, so if one used an updated browser (firefox, chrome, etc.) then no problem, right?
.

Web browsers (any browser!) are the most common vector for infection these days. Simply running a different browser won't really make you any more secure. Whichever browser you use, you should make sure it is kept up to date (i.e., if you are running a version of OS X that is no longer supported, running safari would be a very bad idea), disable java, don't run with administrative credentials, etc.

But there's nothing to say that there aren't problems in Mail, iCloud (for example), or any other program on your mac which is used to access internet content.

Put "firefox" into the search instead and you'll see heaps of vulnerabilties for Firefox, too.



History has shown that basically nearly all software out there can be exploited in one way or another eventually. And even if the code for the oeprating system is bug free and secure,there are sometimes flaws in the protocol that was implemented than can be exploited.

Badagri
Nov 26, 2012, 07:45 PM
You need to work on your reading comprehension.

That isn't what I said.

They will stop getting security updates.

However, this does mean they start becoming progressively less safe to use on-line as per below:


I thought thats what it always was. They only supported the main two OS's. As it stands:

Mountain Lion: Full support & features

Lion: Security updates

Snow Leopard: no updates



Because I was there when Lion came out when I was on Leopard. Just before Lion was launched, no updates whatsoever for Leopard. It was a deathly silence in Software Update.

miata
Nov 26, 2012, 07:53 PM
I thought thats what it always was. They only supported the main two OS's. As it stands:

Mountain Lion: Full support & features

Lion: Security updates

Snow Leopard: no updates



Because I was there when Lion came out when I was on Leopard. Just before Lion was launched, no updates whatsoever for Leopard. It was a deathly silence in Software Update.
I think SL might be a little different. When Lion came out most Leopard customers could update to SL with no regression. This is not the case for SL customers who cannot go to Lion or ML without losing things like PPC support.

Why do you think Apple recently added the SL DVD back into the Apple Store?

throAU
Nov 26, 2012, 10:30 PM
Why do you think Apple recently added the SL DVD back into the Apple Store?

Because officially, to upgrade to Lion or Mountain Lion, you need the App store, which is only available in 10.6.8 or later.

No SL availability = no upgrades "possible" for anyone on 10.5 or earlier.

ixodes
Nov 26, 2012, 10:41 PM
This thread is intended to reach all of the people who had Snow Leopard, installed Lion and realized it was a terrible choice, then reinstalled Snow Leopard.

So, here is my question: since I am one of these people, I want to know from the people described above if Mountain Lion is a good choice or should I keep my Snow Leopard?

I just don't want to do the same mistake I did installing Lion and going back to Snow Leopard.
I have a plethora of new 2012 Macs, running the latest version of Mountain Lion for one reason. I prefer to remain open minded, primarily to test the newest versions of OS X in advance of adopting it.

That said my main array of 2010 Macs all run OS X v 10.6.8 which remains my absolute favorite version of the Mac OS.

Using Macs since 1991 has taught me there's simply no substitute for first hand experience, using an OS in my normal environment, to determine if it's for me.

Newer is _not_ always better. That goes for Windows (hence why I skipped Vista) as well as OS X.

For my mission critical work and the kind of things we use it for at my office / lab, the hundreds of Macs we deploy all remain on 10.6.8 as well.

For those who like the eye candy and iOS influence I can see where they will be attracted to the newer OS, but thus far it offers zero advantages for my purposes, and sadly has drawbacks that do not exist in 10.6.8.

Then there's the obvious. At some point Apple will force us out of 10.6.8 as they are wont to do, but until then, there's simply no substitute for the fast, stable and highly reliable Snow Leopard.

throAU
Nov 26, 2012, 10:54 PM
not being able to resize from any corner drives me nuts.

Dillyew
Nov 27, 2012, 05:57 AM
This thread is intended to reach all of the people who had Snow Leopard, installed Lion and realized it was a terrible choice, then reinstalled Snow Leopard.

So, here is my question: since I am one of these people, I want to know from the people described above if Mountain Lion is a good choice or should I keep my Snow Leopard?


Yes, sad but I did the same, tried Lion on my MacBook Pro which completely mangled everything in my system and made my BootCamp/Pc partition unuseable. So I completely wiped the Mac partition and reloaded SnowLeopard which I love. I think some of the problem may have been the fact it could not find a backup area, so I now have that set up and am going to try again, but only because I feel I have to! Like the last entry, I expect we will be forced off by some means or other. I still have SL on my iMac for all my clubs/groups (4) membership management etc. I am loathe to lose it. :(

I feel all the 'improvements' in L and ML are purely to cater for all the PC users and others who are now in the Mac envelope via the ipads and phones as many of the actions seem to cater more for the people who live their lives on these community systems, rather than those who use Macs for more practical reasons. It is almost as if Apple is dumbing down for the masses which is fine for them, but no so good for the Macusers who've been with Macs for yonks.

So I would say to Bruleke if you are happy with Snow Leopard keep it as long as you feel you can. Ultimately it will be really old hat and in a moment of gung ho! you will decide to buy a new machine or go for it. Beware, as you get older (I don't know your age, but I am getting on now) and radical changes are not so easy to take on board. Perhaps that is the problem:rolleyes:

Krazy Bill
Nov 27, 2012, 08:29 AM
Then there's the obvious. At some point Apple will force us out of 10.6.8 as they are wont to do, but until then, there's simply no substitute for the fast, stable and highly reliable Snow Leopard.

Well, the "obvious" has been here a long time. Apple will force you out of 10.6.8 when your machine dies. :D

Here's the bottom line... if you're still on SL out of defiance, waiting for 10.9 to magically revert to SL features (or similar ones)... you're dreaming. The iOS merger continues... unabated.

Stonefly
Nov 27, 2012, 09:02 AM
I put SL back on my late 2009 27 iMac last week and love it. Used ML from release date but it just wouldn't perform like SL does. Benchmark tests are much better in SL especially in 3D frames per seconds, used NovaBench. iCloud was nice but I still get my iCloud mail in SL mail, I get my pictures off my iPhone when I plug it in to charge, iCal syncs with iCloud and I don't change my address book much so doing it manually isn't a problem. The other stuff in ML i don't really care about. I really don't want a 27 inch iPhone or iPad. I want my computer experience to be different than my hand held devices.

Cave Man
Nov 27, 2012, 09:24 AM
Well, the "obvious" has been here a long time. Apple will force you out of 10.6.8 when your machine dies. :D

If one were inclined to stay with SL, one could always build a hackintosh.

Eithanius
Nov 27, 2012, 10:11 AM
If one were inclined to stay with SL, one could always build a hackintosh.

Still... there's always questions of having old SL drivers compatible with newer hackintosh hardware... Are they gonna work...

B737
Nov 27, 2012, 10:21 AM
my quick two cents... about going from SL to ML...

i was a guy that went from Snow Leopard to Lion on my early 2011 MBA when it was released, stuck with it for two months, hated it, and went back to SL. i was bored last night and upgraded to ML....

im really happy with it, took some tweaking to get rid of annoying things and granted its only been 18 hours or so... but i def underestimated the coolness of icloud integration, and imessage. i feel like that convenience alone was worth the $.

Firefox is working normally, as are its gestures, OS wake up & boot times seem as good if not better (?) than they were with SL.

i should add, i dont do any heavy lifting with my MBA... mostly web stuff, light duty tasks and parallels (which needed a $30 upgrade).

im glad i upgraded this time.

miata
Nov 27, 2012, 10:34 AM
...
Here's the bottom line... if you're still on SL out of defiance, waiting for 10.9 to magically revert to SL features (or similar ones)... you're dreaming. The iOS merger continues... unabated.
Not all of us are holding back out of "defiance." Many of us were optimistic, upgraded to Lion or ML, and figure out for ourselves that it was better to go back to SL.

There are a number of things I liked about ML when I upgraded. I was ready to stick with it until I ran into some reliability problems. I'll likely try ML again when it matures. When the next release after ML comes out I will definitely check it out with the hope of getting new features. I've been using MacOS since 7.0 and almost always upgrade to the latest within a week or two of release. I am looking forward to using a new release with new features.

Krazy Bill
Nov 27, 2012, 03:23 PM
Not all of us are holding back out of "defiance." Many of us were optimistic, upgraded to Lion or ML, and figure out for ourselves that it was better to go back to SL.

Defiance or "waiting for better". No difference. My whole point is if you don't like ML then 10.9 isn't going to be any different so people need to consider dumping the Mac platform altogether. Snow Leopard was the end of a time-honored legacy. The future with Apple now is consumerism.

When the next release after ML comes out I will definitely check it out with the hope of getting new features.Siri and Maps? Meh.

Put the new UI elements in Snow Leopard, make Full Screen apps work properly, bring back grid-based spaces and I'll buy it. (I'd actually buy a new mac to run it).

RSL
Nov 28, 2012, 12:19 AM
Defiance or "waiting for better". No difference. My whole point is if you don't like ML then 10.9 isn't going to be any different so people need to consider dumping the Mac platform altogether. Snow Leopard was the end of a time-honored legacy. The future with Apple now is consumerism.

Whatever happened to Think Different :(

Eithanius
Nov 28, 2012, 01:04 AM
Whatever happened to Think Different :(

Ever since the Intel switch and Apple's obsession to grab a piece of the Windows market share, Think Different ceased to exist... I missed the old Mac + iPod days...

Morod
Nov 28, 2012, 01:48 AM
Every time I think I want to upgrade to ML, I watch the video of it on the Apple site:

http://www.apple.com/osx/

and decide I am VERY happy with SL.
:)

Eithanius
Nov 28, 2012, 02:02 AM
Every time I think I want to upgrade to ML, I watch the video of it on the Apple site:

http://www.apple.com/osx/

and decide I am VERY happy with SL.
:)

Is it just me or is that link actually triggers my iTunes to connect to iTunes Store...? :confused::confused:

Dewdman42
Nov 28, 2012, 12:18 PM
+1

yes, sad but i did the same, tried lion on my macbook pro which completely mangled everything in my system and made my bootcamp/pc partition unuseable. So i completely wiped the mac partition and reloaded snowleopard which i love. I think some of the problem may have been the fact it could not find a backup area, so i now have that set up and am going to try again, but only because i feel i have to! Like the last entry, i expect we will be forced off by some means or other. I still have sl on my imac for all my clubs/groups (4) membership management etc. I am loathe to lose it. :(

i feel all the 'improvements' in l and ml are purely to cater for all the pc users and others who are now in the mac envelope via the ipads and phones as many of the actions seem to cater more for the people who live their lives on these community systems, rather than those who use macs for more practical reasons. It is almost as if apple is dumbing down for the masses which is fine for them, but no so good for the macusers who've been with macs for yonks.

So i would say to bruleke if you are happy with snow leopard keep it as long as you feel you can. Ultimately it will be really old hat and in a moment of gung ho! You will decide to buy a new machine or go for it. Beware, as you get older (i don't know your age, but i am getting on now) and radical changes are not so easy to take on board. Perhaps that is the problem:rolleyes:

Joseph Farrugia
Nov 28, 2012, 01:05 PM
Mate, I don't have to justify my job at all. People have been willing to pay hundreds of dollars per hour for my services since 1996, because I know what I'm doing.

……or because they don't know what they're doing, & they don't know what you are doing to them. Your FUD won't stick here.

Cave Man
Nov 29, 2012, 09:35 PM
Now another freakin' problem with ML. Software update tries to install the new iTunes and Aperture camera raw files and it gets stuck on installing with about "one minute" remaining. Set there for over 1 hour, so I do a force quit and relaunch it. Now it's been half an hour saying "installing - calculating". One problem after another, after another, after another. What a freakin' piece of alpha software, this Mountain Lion.

Eithanius
Nov 29, 2012, 10:27 PM
Now another freakin' problem with ML. Software update tries to install the new iTunes and Aperture camera raw files and it gets stuck on installing with about "one minute" remaining. Set there for over 1 hour, so I do a force quit and relaunch it. Now it's been half an hour saying "installing - calculating". One problem after another, after another, after another. What a freakin' piece of alpha software, this Mountain Lion.

There are times I don't even trust Software Update on Snow Leopard to do the job especially huge downloads like these... **** like this do happen especially when I have a slow and unstable connection... I trust offline installers... :D:D

ecoarena
Dec 3, 2012, 07:58 PM
Firstly, I’ve been a Mac user for 26 years now and my Classic still fires up beautifully as I’m slowly transferring my PhD research work into the modern age.
Here’s what I see to be a fundamental ‘issue’ – Steve Jobs never believed in focus groups; he believed that people did not know what they want, so he just gave it to them. So, we reveled in new toys.
Though I love Apple and all things Pixar (and find the non-PC work an insult to my brain cells) I always believed that I knew what I want. Apple for me is simply the best tool for the job I need to get done. When I used Word 3 (?) back in 1986/7, it did exactly what I needed in terms of word processing and formatting my thesis (to this day, all theses produced in my old department ‘borrowed’ my table designs) – it was simplicity, but it worked and worked well. I still believe that my formatting work on my Classic is more effective that what many folk are producing now with the behemoth that Microsoft Word has become.

Anyway, to continue, my writing, my music and my photography/graphic work are important to me. Apple provided the best option for me to express myself creatively - FOR ME. This is my current situation, my partner’s MacBook runs Leopard (yes Leopard) and she’s happy as Larry and refuses to let me touch the machine, it does what she wants it to do – and quickly (I'm still gonna sneek into her office one night and upgrade it to SL!). I have 2 MacBook Pros, one runs Snow Leopard (beautifully) and the later model, Lion (perfectly fine, but still in the category of ‘why did Apple think I wanted my laptop to look like the iPhone I don’t own? I check my email, browse and don’t do anything remotely creative on it). My desktop, on the other hand, runs several platforms on several drives (a Windows platform…..for certain software – yes, I shower after using it; a Lion platform, still haven’t used it, I just wanted some form of comparison and will remove it - it's slower than my SL; and my MAIN drive, a SNOW LEOPARD platform).

With Snow Leopard I use the machine for what I need to use it. It never crashes (and I mean never, unless I do something stupid) and most importantly, it flawlessly runs the software I need to do my job (or entertain myself). I was in the same boat when it came to questioning Lion and yes, I had issues with my ProTools/hardware integration etc. So…I stuck with Snow Leopard.

It is clear that with Lion and now with Mountain Lion, Apple are pushing for us to use iCloud and similar initiatives. This does not interest me. Unless there is a cumulonimbus looming over the horizon, I am NOT interested in clouds of any kind. The idea of storing my private material on someone else’s server still seems akin to giving someone the key to your front door.

Apple is also wishing folk to integrate their other Apple produces (iphone, iPad) with their computers via this ‘heavenly’ link. I have an iPad, not an iPhone, but it still doesn’t interest me. For those of you who think it’s a blessing, here’s some light reading for when things can go horribly wrong (Google ‘How Apple and Amazon Security Flaws Led to My Epic Hacking’).

Yes, I used DropBox to transfer files (non important files) from my iPad, but my life is a very manual one where I like to see and know exactly what is happening. It’s boring, and not particularly high tech, but it’s secure (relatively) and it works.

So, I stuck with Snow Leopard as it gets my job done and yes, I built a hackintosh. I built it in the shell of the G5 that Apple made obsolete not long after I bought it.

If someone can convince me that Mountain Lion will make my work more effective, then I’ll upgrade, but to date, Apple’s desire to emulate their mobile iOS in everything, does very little to impress or excite me (I think I’ll go and hug my Classic). God bless you Steve, thank you, but I now know what I want.

gumblecosby
Dec 4, 2012, 02:40 AM
.....

There is no need for you personally to upgrade to Mountain Lion unless you are concerned about receiving future security patches and/or you need new Apple first party software.

Mountain Lion currently has far too many small bugs to be worth the hassle if you are happy on Snow Leopard. Snow Leopard was once too buggy for me too though. That was around 10.6.4 or so. However it was given time to mature unlike Lion which is already in the "security patch only" phase of support (ie. No more 10.7.x updates) . How long Mountain Lion will be supported is anyones guess but I think everybody can see the pattern here.

Also, I echo your cloud sentiments so thumbs up there.

wifferdill
Dec 5, 2012, 01:28 PM
I normally NEVER write in forums but since I'm very pissed off at Apple I thought I'd see what the "climate" is out there regarding ML (Mountain Lion). Before I spout off you should know a little about my background to give credence to my remarks. I was a senior software engineer at Apple Computer in 1985 / 1986 and have been a devoted mac user ever since.

I am highly technical, do programming, web development... write... so my computer is on 24/7 and I'm pretty busy... still... 27 years and just about every model of mac and Apple OS later.

To me... it's the end of the line for Apple. They lost their integrity entirely once the cash cow of MP3 was discovered. Lion and Mountain Lion are utterly hideous... totally dumbed down to capture PC refugees and with Windows 8 there's going to be a lot of them. Until a week ago I have been very productive on Snow Leopard. However, I thought it'd be nice to upgrade to a brand new Macbook Pro 13 inch and it comes with Mountain Lion.

Shame on me for not reading... I made a legacy decision that ML would be a substantial upgrade over Lion... or more precisely... a mature Lion with a different name.

Mountain Lion, for me... is the worst Apple operating system I've ever attempted to use. A lot of people "love" it but they are mostly inexperienced with Apple or light users.

But it's not just a very poor operating system that disturbs me... it's Apples drift to unadulterated consumerism with complete disregard for quality, productivity and usefulness. Their closed architecture to lock people into their hardware via the Apple Store and a unified OS for mobile devices has produced a wretched psyche at Apple and the results are clearly evident in what they currently produce. They're very much into wowing us with pointless things like retina displays to overshadow all the shortcomings that are beginning to make Mac OS unusable.

To me, they've crossed the line and will never go back to a really good operating system. Most people just take what they get and say it's OK... especially if they've forked out a bundle for it. They are emotionally attached to their buying decision.

People who are legacy users of Apple know what I'm talking about. The downward trend has been astonishing and for my money... Apple died with Steve Jobs. The new products coming from Apple are as lacklustre as their CEO.

In answer to your original post... I downgraded to SL from Lion in about 3 hours of using it. I just spent over $1,500 for a new MBP that gives me ML and no possibility of downgrading to SL (if I'd researched I'd have discovered that little fact and never bought the machine in the first place). I've used it for 5 days now to give it a chance and try to be moderately productive and I cannot stand it.

IF YOU ARE ASKING THIS QUESTION THEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE ISSUES... so my answer is... stay with SL. All the mundane chatter about future software and drivers is pointless. I have Photoshop CS5 and all the best tools... web development, programming... hard drives, SSD's, printers et al... are not going to change much in the next 2 to 5 years. If you are productive with your SL then follow the advise so many pissed off Apple users are shouting at Apple... if it works, don't fix it.

I have an iPhone 5 that can't bluetooth to my brand new MBP!... I can't even minimize my Finder windows to a reasonably small footprint on ML... I had spaces working perfectly on SL... garbage with ML, not to mention all the "non" features the average person couldn't care less about.

I called Apple today to get a return authorization on the junk and dug out my SL mini so I can get some work done.

I took a hammer to my iPhone (I can afford to) and bought a $40 Samsung that is just a PHONE (got a camera and keyboard) but it holds it's charge for days and works perfectly and I blue toothed it to my mac mini no problem.

That's my story... and I'm sticking to it!

Krazy Bill
Dec 5, 2012, 04:36 PM
I was a senior software engineer at Apple Computer in 1985 / 1986 and have been a devoted mac user ever since.

We have similar usage backgrounds. I have been an avid user since the Apple II (in conjunction with PC's of course).

Pretty much agree with everything but I have to tell you... give ML more than 3 hours. Is it better than Snow Leopard? No, but use all that experience you have to find ways to adapt. There's a hack/app for just about everything - mostly done by people that feel as we do.

Don't get me wrong... Mountain Lion still sucks but given the alternatives for new machines, the pickings are slim and it's still the lesser of evils IMO.

I am waiting for my Mac to die. It should be ready for pasture by this summer. At that time I'll explore the next round of Windows ultra-books to see how much Apple tech they've stolen to make some good machines.

ecoarena
Dec 6, 2012, 08:19 AM
Wifferdill...WOW! Much more eloquent and to the point than I. I heartily agree 100%. Just as with Krazy Bill, we all have similar backgrounds. As I mentioned earlier, I too have a late model MacBook Pro running 'LION!!!!' (gratefully purchased for me) but it's sole role is to enable me to check emails, give simple presentations and to browse the web - that's all it is entrusted with. The real workhorse and centre of my creativity is my desktop running Snow Leopard - she's fast, powerful, reliable and compatible (sounds like the perfect mate?). The 'legacy users' amongst us know exactly where you are coming from. If I were to jump into the future, I predict that the home of the future (a doubtful future given our current trends of financial greed and environmental abuse) is where Apple wants to be. The computer that runs a home, that switches lights on when you walk in the door, an integrated system that controls your audiovisual world and tickles all your fancies....I daresay, that is Apple's ultimate aim - complex operations from a single button, the dumbing down of beautiful technologies. To 'think different' no longer applies. Apple's dishing out of iPads, one after the other, ripping off purchasers and contributing to a growing obsolescence is reflective of a company that has indeed lost the plot (I've said it many times before, I cannot help but think Apple has the 'perfect' iPad already built, but are just shelling out 'small' refinements, to keep us shelling out the dough). We supported and contributed to the success of Apple, but now, I feel that Apple is no longer supporting its customers. Apple is now little more than a business that is more concerned with its competition, than truly thinking different. Systems that worked for me for years, are no longer changed to better my life, but rather to clutter it and, in the process, annoy me. I loved my Classic, even my LC III, Powermac G3 (gosh we almost had an affair) and my G5 - I doubt that I'll ever say I love my MacBook Pro......it's a nice machine and has some nice curves but post Snow Leopard...she'll never quite 'do it' for me.

oneMadRssn
Dec 7, 2012, 04:45 PM
With Snow Leopard I use the machine for what I need to use it. It never crashes (and I mean never, unless I do something stupid) and most importantly, it flawlessly runs the software I need to do my job (or entertain myself). I was in the same boat when it came to questioning Lion and yes, I had issues with my ProTools/hardware integration etc. So…I stuck with Snow Leopard.

So, I stuck with Snow Leopard as it gets my job done and yes, I built a hackintosh. I built it in the shell of the G5 that Apple made obsolete not long after I bought it.

If someone can convince me that Mountain Lion will make my work more effective, then I’ll upgrade, but to date, Apple’s desire to emulate their mobile iOS in everything, does very little to impress or excite me (I think I’ll go and hug my Classic). God bless you Steve, thank you, but I now know what I want.


IF YOU ARE ASKING THIS QUESTION THEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE ISSUES... so my answer is... stay with SL. All the mundane chatter about future software and drivers is pointless. I have Photoshop CS5 and all the best tools... web development, programming... hard drives, SSD's, printers et al... are not going to change much in the next 2 to 5 years. If you are productive with your SL then follow the advise so many pissed off Apple users are shouting at Apple... if it works, don't fix it.


Both of you hinted to a broader question: For how much longer can you hang on to SL? How much longer will you keep replacing failing hardware to keep them going? How many versions of newer software that is incompatible with SL will you keep ignoring?

I'm not trying to by cynical. In my case, if I tried really hard, I can probably last ~10yrs. It's already been 2, so only 8 to go! (Imagine the money I'd save!) But eventually Chrome and Firefox will stop updating for SL, new web technologies will come out and new ways of socializing on the internet that require the newer browsers, other new software specific to my field of work, replacement hardware will become harder to come by, and either I will be left behind or SL will have to be left behind.

When that day comes for you, are you going to switch to another platform, or return to the brand you've been loyal to and take whatever Apple is selling?

Zwhaler
Dec 7, 2012, 04:56 PM
Honeslty I'm still on SL and everything feels fine. I much prefer the way it works, and don't need ANY features ML has. If you are like me, then stick with SL. It's all about feeling comfortable, and I feel more comfortable on SL than ML, and since the computer is used for work I don't care about a lot of the ML features that I don't need (all of them)

miata
Dec 7, 2012, 05:22 PM
Both of you hinted to a broader question: For how much longer can you hang on to SL? How much longer will you keep replacing failing hardware to keep them going? How many versions of newer software that is incompatible with SL will you keep ignoring?

I'm not trying to by cynical. In my case, if I tried really hard, I can probably last ~10yrs. It's already been 2, so only 8 to go! (Imagine the money I'd save!) But eventually Chrome and Firefox will stop updating for SL, new web technologies will come out and new ways of socializing on the internet that require the newer browsers, other new software specific to my field of work, replacement hardware will become harder to come by, and either I will be left behind or SL will have to be left behind.

When that day comes for you, are you going to switch to another platform, or return to the brand you've been loyal to and take whatever Apple is selling?
A lot of us aren't going to wait forever. We'll upgrade to some later version of MacOS when we need to. That could be a year from now or could be two years.

I don't like the direction that Apple is going, but they are still better than the alternatives -- at least for the desktop.

Badagri
Dec 8, 2012, 07:28 AM
I don't understand whats so bad about Mountain Lion. I don't use the social part of Mountain Lion. Everything runs as fluid as Snow Leopard bar the dated UI of Snow Leopard. Everything graphical on Mountain Lion is sublime.

I'm still using Mountain Lion exactly the same way I would have with Snow Leopard.

cmChimera
Dec 8, 2012, 08:25 AM
Mentalities seen in this thread:

1. I'm in IT so I'm clearly a super genius. Mountain lion sucks because I say so.

2. I hate mountain lion. Firefox, which is not a system app whatsoever but shut up, doesn't work properly.

3. I wanted a 10.7 that added nothing new, useful or not. I don't understand why Apple had to add things.

4. Mountain lion crashed once on me, it's terrible.

5. It's the end of the road for apple, no way a power user would value features like a centralized notification center, and cloud integration with there idevices. That stuff is for n00bs.

6. Mountain Lion is the Vista of OS X even though most people love it.

7. I'm never switching off Snow Leopard, Apple keeps giving optional ways for new users feel more at home using their Macs, and I don't like it. Who turns on inverted scrolling, seriously!?


This thread is hilarious. Mountain Lion is fantastic. Lion was pretty good, kinda like Leopard was. In the same way that Snow Leopard improved upon Leopard, Mountain Lion improved upon Lion. I have my minor gripes, but my experience has been very pleasant.

RSL
Dec 9, 2012, 05:47 AM
Apple stop putting out crappy half-baked consumer software and give Serlet whatever he wants to come back!!!

Sorry I just spent a couple of hours on my wife's ML macbook.

LeandrodaFL
Dec 10, 2012, 01:45 AM
TotalSpaces is an app that brings back the Grid Spaces found in Snow Leopard to Mountain Lion

I suget people here check it out. I sitll havent, but Im craving for it

I love Snow Leopard and I hate Lion/Mountain Lion for getting rid of Exposé and Spaces, but I ahve to admit I need a hardware upgrade, so Im gonna have to endure Mountain Lion

Mountian Lion is in now way an upgrade to Snow Leopard, but now with TotalSpaces, and the fact that they kinda fixed the Exposé in Mission Control, I think I can live with Mountain Lion

Certainly, whatever new OS is next, its gonna be even worse.

sidewinder
Dec 10, 2012, 02:10 AM
Mentalities seen in this thread:

1. I'm in IT so I'm clearly a super genius. Mountain lion sucks because I say so.

2. I hate mountain lion. Firefox, which is not a system app whatsoever but shut up, doesn't work properly.

3. I wanted a 10.7 that added nothing new, useful or not. I don't understand why Apple had to add things.

4. Mountain lion crashed once on me, it's terrible.

5. It's the end of the road for apple, no way a power user would value features like a centralized notification center, and cloud integration with there idevices. That stuff is for n00bs.

6. Mountain Lion is the Vista of OS X even though most people love it.

7. I'm never switching off Snow Leopard, Apple keeps giving optional ways for new users feel more at home using their Macs, and I don't like it. Who turns on inverted scrolling, seriously!?


This thread is hilarious. Mountain Lion is fantastic. Lion was pretty good, kinda like Leopard was. In the same way that Snow Leopard improved upon Leopard, Mountain Lion improved upon Lion. I have my minor gripes, but my experience has been very pleasant.

Truth!!

Some people are unhappy with change.....

S-

ecoarena
Dec 10, 2012, 02:35 AM
Truth!!

Some people are unhappy with change.....

S-

:)
I wonder how old you folks are.
Change is not always for the better. My daughers LOVE using the new Macs, running Lion or Mountain Lion...it's not the system that they love, it's the fact that they can simply play Minecraft or Angry Birds etc. Furthermore, for new consumers of Macs, ANY system will look and feel great. However, I will reiterate, change is not always for the better.
Those of us who have been using Macs for decades, I will argue, are able to discern what is a good and bad system. It all depends on what works for you. Snow Leopard runs everything I need it to run and does it well. Lion does not and nor does Mountain Lion. Also, what's the big deal with Snow Leopard no longer being supported? Give me 10 years and I'll still be able to produce and create work as good as anyone using any system. Oh..and I don't think I'm going to be upset if I'm ever unable to access the internet due to some incompatibility in browser/system (will I miss 'Crapbook' and Twatter? I don't think so as I don't use them). It will give me more time to be creative (if I'm not mistaken, there WAS a world before I bought my first computer). Furthermore, um...there are billions of users who are years behind 'the rest of us' ....a company that makes its product redundant too early, is very foolish indeed. You know, recently I bought a new bass guitar (early xmas present). The model first came out in the 1960s and I bought the 2012 model which has remained virtually unchanged.
One more time, if you have something that works and ain't broke, why fix it? I still love Apple, but the innovation seems to be slipping as they scramble to stay afloat in the world of competition. In such a world, customer support and satisfaction is very important indeed.

ojcruz
Dec 10, 2012, 02:38 AM
Hey everyone. My two cents.

I switched from SL to ML recently and it's been hit and miss. Mostly miss. A lot of little things that used to work properly now don't.

I used spaces all the time. MC seemed like an upgrade but it lacks some simple stuff that I used to do all the time. I have two monitors and with spaces you could send any app to any space in any monitor. In MC you can't send apps to a different monitor. A different space, yes. Monitor, no.

Hiding the scroll bars is kinda cool but when scrolling down to the bottom of a long list I realized that the horizontal bar covers the last item on the list. So now I have to wait till the bar disappears before I can get at the file. Minor problem but really annoying after a while. I had to switch them on all the time. Meaning I had to work to fix the problem and the solution was to put it back the way it was in SL.

Even more growl stuff popping up. I hated growl. I still do. I turned it off then. Now it's apparently called badges (like on the iPhone). Still annoying. More stuff to turn off. I guess some people need to be harassed by their computers so maybe this one could be given a pass.

Drag and drop does a silly, unnecessary animation. I can't remember ever dragging and dropping and thinking, "god I wish this thing animated the icons into a vertical list". In fact there is a whole bunch of tacky animations that have been added to the OS, like the bounce when you reach the bottom of a doc for instance and the new bounce out of a new file when you hit save as (now duplicate apparently) in Pages.Which brings me to the next thing.

Save as. Pages lost it's save as. Now I have a duplicate button which is only almost the same thing. It used to simply keep one document open, rename it and save it. Now hitting save as leaves you with two open files. I use a lot of templates so now the original template file (which I no longer need) remains open. Awesome. I later discovered that holding option brings back my button. Although now the shortcut requires alt as well.

Fullscreen sucks if you have two monitors. Why? because you can only use one monitor while in fullscreen mode, meaning there is no real gain in screen real-estate.

Spotlight. I use spotlight all the time. I never go sifting through folders to find anything. I cmd-spacebar and search spotlight for what I'm looking for. If I don't find it in the first few items I would hit show all in finder at the top and get a longer list. This list is now sorted by dates, which at first seemed awesome but it turns out is not. Not everything you need was opened today or recently for that matter. Off to the bottom of the pile for you. searching for delayed woosh in my finder search bar leads to this listing:

Previous 30 days
SAticoNew.xmp

Earlier
Audio Plug-Ins Guide.pdf
AIR Virtual Instruments.pdf
Delayed woosh.wav
Delayed woosh.mp3

I was looking for the last one. Awesome.

Another fun thing about the finder search is that it now lists name matches as a drop down which turns the search into a token. This means hitting delete won't erase just the last letter but the whole thing. You have to double click the word to be able to edit it. Advantages of turning the word into a token? None.

Quicklook got hurt. Used to be, I would spacebar and get an image in quick look. Then I would pinch to go full screen. It didn't matter where you pinched, now it must be done on the top bar. This is not true of videos, only images. Also pinching to leave fullscreen works fine for text files and videos but not images. Pdfs also don't go fullscreen but rather zoom in within the view. These used to all work the same way. It's also generally uglier, but that's not quick look specific. It's got a couple of new buttons at the top and some of the new functionality is welcome. Still, half a good thing. Half a bad one.

Notification center is cool and so is iCloud. I heard someone argue that it's not safe but I just keep my state secrets and naked lady pictures off the cloud. It's been working fine.

The OS as a whole is less responsive. Not slower, just not responsive. Sometimes I need to click a bunch of times at a window before it figures out I want it to be in focus.

Not big on the facebook stuff but I guess it's a good thing for many users. I just tried to make sure I didn't get people's stupid facebook pictures in my contacts.

Autocorrect sucks. There has never been a good autocorrect. There apparently never will be. I'm tired of sending people incoherent emails because autocorrect thought I meant ass instead of ask. I turned it off but the suggestions get selected if you hit spacebar so if it suggests some dumb thing towards the end of the word you need to arrow key into the next word instead of space or you'll change what you wrote. It's happened several times while I was writing this.

So yeah, if I could go back to SL, I would. But I need Lion specific software to work these days. So I'm stuck with ML. I believe this mayhem started during Lion so I'm not even contemplating going for that one.

Cave Man
Dec 10, 2012, 08:27 AM
This thread is hilarious. Mountain Lion is fantastic.

Yes, it's awesome, including the forced restarts every four or five days that require repairing disk permissions each time and apps crashing at least once or twice a day. Man, I just love those bugs, eh, I mean features. :rolleyes:

Badagri
Dec 10, 2012, 03:45 PM
Yes, it's awesome, including the forced restarts every four or five days that require repairing disk permissions each time and apps crashing at least once or twice a day. Man, I just love those bugs, eh, I mean features. :rolleyes:

O_o

I've had an uptime past 30 days and had to restart once due to a software update. Not once have I touched permissions. Nor do I ever recall having an app crash. Lots of photo editing and archive/unarchiving batches. As well as file transferring.

LeandrodaFL
Dec 10, 2012, 06:29 PM
And it seems Microsoft won't develop anymore Office for Mac and majority of the business world is on Office platform.
So to have fun Mac is fine but Mountain Lion is just a toy ... not for working.

Probably OSX decadence started when Bertrand Serlet left Apple.

Shame on you Apple!

OpenOffice is a free application that can open ANY Micorosfot Office document. Its avalilable for Windows an Mac and Linux. Seriously, if you ares still paying for this suite....you have money to burn.....

Then again, most business people are not well informed enough

wiz7dome
Dec 12, 2012, 08:32 AM
Quicklook got hurt. Used to be, I would spacebar and get an image in quick look. Then I would pinch to go full screen. It didn't matter where you pinched, now it must be done on the top bar. This is not true of videos, only images. Also pinching to leave fullscreen works fine for text files and videos but not images. Pdfs also don't go fullscreen but rather zoom in within the view. These used to all work the same way. It's also generally uglier, but that's not quick look specific. It's got a couple of new buttons at the top and some of the new functionality is welcome. Still, half a good thing. Half a bad one. "

Tell me about it!

I guest that is the new direction of HUD's. Unobtrusive Black glassy look is being replaced with a HARD TO AVOID,HARD TO FOCUS ON CONTENT, WHITE BACKGROUND

Its as annoying as trying to read all sentences in all caps.

I noticed the new version of Firefox changed to match it as well. I moved back to the old version. Its as if Apple forgot the point of HUD and everything else visual.

HenryDJP
Dec 12, 2012, 11:36 AM
Yes, it's awesome, including the forced restarts every four or five days that require repairing disk permissions each time and apps crashing at least once or twice a day. Man, I just love those bugs, eh, I mean features. :rolleyes:

Repairing disk permissions? Who in the heck still does that? There's no real need to do that and if you're going to do it, it should be done through Disk Utility on the Install Screen, not Disk Utility from from the utilities folder. You're wasting your time.
I've never had issues with forced restarts in ML and I'm a power user as I use my iMac for my business.

Badagri
Dec 12, 2012, 12:17 PM
I've never had issues with forced restarts in ML and I'm a power user as I use my iMac for my business.

I find it so hard not to think of power users as... stegosaurus!

rrn8_cWjMoM

cmChimera
Dec 12, 2012, 12:23 PM
Drag and drop does a silly, unnecessary animation. I can't remember ever dragging and dropping and thinking, "god I wish this thing animated the icons into a vertical list". In fact there is a whole bunch of tacky animations that have been added to the OS, like the bounce when you reach the bottom of a doc for instance and the new bounce out of a new file when you hit save as (now duplicate apparently) in Pages.Which brings me to the next thing. Though I'm not sure if the animation is even new, are you being serious? This is an actual complaint? How does this possibly affect your productivity?

Save as. Pages lost it's save as. Now I have a duplicate button which is only almost the same thing. It used to simply keep one document open, rename it and save it. Now hitting save as leaves you with two open files. I use a lot of templates so now the original template file (which I no longer need) remains open. Awesome. I later discovered that holding option brings back my button. Although now the shortcut requires alt as well. Have you tried Versions yet? I assure you it's a great feature to have. It's the reason why save as is gone, and after using it extensively, I think the trade off is worth it.


Even more growl stuff popping up. I hated growl. I still do. I turned it off then. Now it's apparently called badges (like on the iPhone). Still annoying. More stuff to turn off. I guess some people need to be harassed by their computers so maybe this one could be given a pass. Notifications can be used for far more than harassment....



Fullscreen sucks if you have two monitors. Why? because you can only use one monitor while in fullscreen mode, meaning there is no real gain in screen real-estate. This is not true despite many app developers not allowing you to use the other monitor. It is possible to use both monitors in full screen mode, but the app has to make it so.

Spotlight. I use spotlight all the time. I never go sifting through folders to find anything. I cmd-spacebar and search spotlight for what I'm looking for. If I don't find it in the first few items I would hit show all in finder at the top and get a longer list. This list is now sorted by dates, which at first seemed awesome but it turns out is not. Not everything you need was opened today or recently for that matter. Off to the bottom of the pile for you. searching for delayed woosh in my finder search bar leads to this listing:

Previous 30 days
SAticoNew.xmp

Earlier
Audio Plug-Ins Guide.pdf
AIR Virtual Instruments.pdf
Delayed woosh.wav
Delayed woosh.mp3

I was looking for the last one. Awesome. This is not true. My search does not arrange by date, but I can choose for it too. I can also do it by name, date last opened, etc.

Another fun thing about the finder search is that it now lists name matches as a drop down which turns the search into a token. This means hitting delete won't erase just the last letter but the whole thing. You have to double click the word to be able to edit it. Advantages of turning the word into a token? None. Then don't click name search? If you're trying to delete just one or two letters out of the name just type the name without the letter(s)......



Notification center is cool and so is iCloud. I heard someone argue that it's not safe but I just keep my state secrets and naked lady pictures off the cloud. It's been working fine. You were just saying you didn't like the "growl stuff"....

The OS as a whole is less responsive. Not slower, just not responsive. Sometimes I need to click a bunch of times at a window before it figures out I want it to be in focus. Not been my experience, I'm sure others would disagree with you.


Autocorrect sucks. There has never been a good autocorrect. There apparently never will be. I'm tired of sending people incoherent emails because autocorrect thought I meant ass instead of ask. I turned it off but the suggestions get selected if you hit spacebar so if it suggests some dumb thing towards the end of the word you need to arrow key into the next word instead of space or you'll change what you wrote. It's happened several times while I was writing this. Then turn it off? I turned autocorrect off.

Yes, it's awesome, including the forced restarts every four or five days that require repairing disk permissions each time and apps crashing at least once or twice a day. Man, I just love those bugs, eh, I mean features. :rolleyes: And, in your opinion, this is an inherent issue of Mountain Lion? Everyone that installs Mountain Lion is going to have that experience? Let's be realistic. You're having computer issues that may or may not have anything to do with Mountain Lion. For whatever reason, you have decided to not fix them, and blame them on Mountain Lion.

koban4max
Dec 12, 2012, 02:48 PM
Hey everyone. My two cents.

Hiding the scroll bars is kinda cool but when scrolling down to the bottom of a long list I realized that the horizontal bar covers the last item on the list. So now I have to wait till the bar disappears before I can get at the file. Minor problem but really annoying after a while. I had to switch them on all the time. Meaning I had to work to fix the problem and the solution was to put it back the way it was in SL.

That indicates you're a little baby that needs to be taken cared.... ITS NOT HARD TO FIX IT>... GO TO PERFERENCE....

Even more growl stuff popping up. I hated growl. I still do. I turned it off then. Now it's apparently called badges (like on the iPhone). Still annoying. More stuff to turn off. I guess some people need to be harassed by their computers so maybe this one could be given a pass.

True complainer....

Drag and drop does a silly, unnecessary animation. I can't remember ever dragging and dropping and thinking, "god I wish this thing animated the icons into a vertical list". In fact there is a whole bunch of tacky animations that have been added to the OS, like the bounce when you reach the bottom of a doc for instance and the new bounce out of a new file when you hit save as (now duplicate apparently) in Pages.Which brings me to the next thing.

:mad:

Save as. Pages lost it's save as. Now I have a duplicate button which is only almost the same thing. It used to simply keep one document open, rename it and save it. Now hitting save as leaves you with two open files. I use a lot of templates so now the original template file (which I no longer need) remains open. Awesome. I later discovered that holding option brings back my button. Although now the shortcut requires alt as well.

You can actually fix it to make it permantely save as without duplicating...this one you have to google it...I know I DID

Fullscreen sucks if you have two monitors. Why? because you can only use one monitor while in fullscreen mode, meaning there is no real gain in screen real-estate.

:rolleyes:

Spotlight. I use spotlight all the time. I never go sifting through folders to find anything. I cmd-spacebar and search spotlight for what I'm looking for. If I don't find it in the first few items I would hit show all in finder at the top and get a longer list. This list is now sorted by dates, which at first seemed awesome but it turns out is not. Not everything you need was opened today or recently for that matter. Off to the bottom of the pile for you. searching for delayed woosh in my finder search bar leads to this listing:

Previous 30 days
SAticoNew.xmp

Earlier
Audio Plug-Ins Guide.pdf
AIR Virtual Instruments.pdf
Delayed woosh.wav
Delayed woosh.mp3

I was looking for the last one. Awesome.

Another fun thing about the finder search is that it now lists name matches as a drop down which turns the search into a token. This means hitting delete won't erase just the last letter but the whole thing. You have to double click the word to be able to edit it. Advantages of turning the word into a token? None.

Quicklook got hurt. Used to be, I would spacebar and get an image in quick look. Then I would pinch to go full screen. It didn't matter where you pinched, now it must be done on the top bar. This is not true of videos, only images. Also pinching to leave fullscreen works fine for text files and videos but not images. Pdfs also don't go fullscreen but rather zoom in within the view. These used to all work the same way. It's also generally uglier, but that's not quick look specific. It's got a couple of new buttons at the top and some of the new functionality is welcome. Still, half a good thing. Half a bad one.

Notification center is cool and so is iCloud. I heard someone argue that it's not safe but I just keep my state secrets and naked lady pictures off the cloud. It's been working fine.

The OS as a whole is less responsive. Not slower, just not responsive. Sometimes I need to click a bunch of times at a window before it figures out I want it to be in focus.

Not big on the facebook stuff but I guess it's a good thing for many users. I just tried to make sure I didn't get people's stupid facebook pictures in my contacts.

Autocorrect sucks. There has never been a good autocorrect. There apparently never will be. I'm tired of sending people incoherent emails because autocorrect thought I meant ass instead of ask. I turned it off but the suggestions get selected if you hit spacebar so if it suggests some dumb thing towards the end of the word you need to arrow key into the next word instead of space or you'll change what you wrote. It's happened several times while I was writing this.

Had no problem there.

So yeah, if I could go back to SL, I would. But I need Lion specific software to work these days. So I'm stuck with ML. I believe this mayhem started during Lion so I'm not even contemplating going for that one.


posted within your quote

Cave Man
Dec 12, 2012, 02:48 PM
Repairing disk permissions? Who in the heck still does that? There's no real need to do that and if you're going to do it, it should be done through Disk Utility on the Install Screen, not Disk Utility from from the utilities folder. You're wasting your time.

If I don't the computer will not shut down - sticks at the gray screen. And yes, I have booted from my OS X ML flash drive to Repair Disk as well as Repair Permissions. No avail.

I've never had issues with forced restarts in ML and I'm a power user as I use my iMac for my business.

I've been using Macs since OS 7 in the early 1990s. Lion and Mountain Lion have been the least stable introductions since the switch to OS X (after its beta release). This is not just one computer, this is three - a 2012 Mac mini, a 2011 MacBook Pro and my 12-core Mac Pro. The Pro spontaneously shuts down on occasion, which never happened with Lion or Snow Leopard, and quite frequently my inbox in Mail disappears, requiring a quit and relaunch of Mail. What's remarkable is that I have the least amount of trouble with ML on my Hackintosh (and my MacBook Air).

And, in your opinion, this is an inherent issue of Mountain Lion?

It is my personal experience, but considering the hardware I'm running I shouldn't have this much trouble.

Everyone that installs Mountain Lion is going to have that experience?

Of course not. Be realistic.

Let's be realistic.

Oh, ok. ;)

You're having computer issues that may or may not have anything to do with Mountain Lion.

Of course, it could be hardware related, particularly with the Mini since it is th 2012 model and shipped with ML. Poor engineering could explain it. It's obvious that Apple f#ck'd up the design that's causing all the USB3/bluetooth problems. But that doesn't explain my Mac Pro troubles - there is no new hardware in that computer that wasn't there when it arrived with Snow Leopard installed two years ago. No problems with SL. No problems with Lion. But spontaneous shut downs and jacked-up Mail with ML.

For whatever reason, you have decided to not fix them, and blame them on Mountain Lion.

Please, tell me how to fix them. :rolleyes: I've been cracking open Macs for 20 years. I've replaced a hard drive in a G4 lampshade iMac, which was the most difficult Mac to work on, even requiring fresh heat sink compound on the cpu during the reassembly. I've even disassembled an Apple TV to put an eSATA port on it. I've replaced hard drives in the G4 MacBook Pros that essentially required a complete disassembly of the unit. I've done quite a bit with Macs and Systems 7, 8 and 9 and all versions of OS X. I have never had as much trouble as I have with Lion and Mountain Lion.

HenryDJP
Dec 12, 2012, 05:32 PM
If I don't the computer will not shut down - sticks at the gray screen. And yes, I have booted from my OS X ML flash drive to Repair Disk as well as Repair Permissions. No avail.



I've been using Macs since OS 7 in the early 1990s. Lion and Mountain Lion have been the least stable introductions since the switch to OS X (after its beta release). This is not just one computer, this is three - a 2012 Mac mini, a 2011 MacBook Pro and my 12-core Mac Pro.



It is my personal experience, but considering the hardware I'm running I shouldn't have this much trouble.





Well you date back just a tad bit before I do. I started on Mac since Mac OS 8. OS 9 was the worse OS I've ever used. Not saying that it was really bad but based on my entire experience with every Mac computer and Mac OS I've had, I had more issues with OS9 than anything else. I've had from an Powerbook to an iBook, to an iMac G4 to an iMac G5 to an iMac 24", to a Power Mac G5 to a Macbook Air to a Macbook Pro and now my new 27" iMac i7. My Apple hardware experience is extensive enough over the years to know which OS presented the worse issues, but that's just my experience. Why would you have a Hackintosh when you had a 12 Core Mac Pro?


I don't know why in the name of the good earth Snow Leopard receives so much praise here?
When it first came out it was referred to as an experience much worse than the worse version of Windows and that would be Windows Millennium Edition (ME). I actually thought Apple was going to come out and make a statement about Snow Leopard's issues because of all of the flaming going at MR, but then again, I see more flaming here towards Apple than I do anywhere else and I wouldn't consider MR to be a great source to gather facts and issues about Apple's OS or hardware. Please don't ask me why I said that, I'm just speaking from the experience of reading here long before I joined.

Personally Snow Leopard ran great for me, much better than Leopard but as time went by and Lion appeared all the complaints about Snow Leopard suddenly disappeared and now people here are singing the praises. Just my opinion but after spending a great amount of time being a lurker here I can see that people like to complain because it's easy to hide behind a computer and do so and sometimes it's just to annoy enthusiasts.

There is nothing wrong with Mountain Lion other than changes that people just don't want to deal with.

RSL
Dec 13, 2012, 12:44 AM
I don't know why in the name of the good earth Snow Leopard receives so much praise here?
When it first came out it was referred to as an experience much worse than the worse version of Windows and that would be Windows Millennium Edition (ME). I actually thought Apple was going to come out and make a statement about Snow Leopard's issues because of all of the flaming going at MR, but then again, I see more flaming here towards Apple than I do anywhere else and I wouldn't consider MR to be a great source to gather facts and issues about Apple's OS or hardware. Please don't ask me why I said that, I'm just speaking from the experience of reading here long before I joined.

Personally Snow Leopard ran great for me, much better than Leopard but as time went by and Lion appeared all the complaints about Snow Leopard suddenly disappeared and now people here are singing the praises.

If that were true then people would be praising Lion by now after it's been replaced by Mountain Lion. They're not, quite the contrary. Try to understand that people are not just whining idiots. Most have honest issues too long to all state here, e.g. WIFI not working, etc. SL did have some bugs when it first came out, but they were eventually ironed out. Lion, fuggedaboudit.

Morod
Dec 13, 2012, 03:39 AM
Apple stop putting out crappy half-baked consumer software and give Serlet whatever he wants to come back!!!


This, but it'll never happen. :(
I would like to hear his honest opinions of the most recent versions of OS X.

LeandrodaFL
Dec 13, 2012, 07:41 AM
I don't know why in the name of the good earth Snow Leopard receives so much praise here?

There is nothing wrong with Mountain Lion other than changes that people just don't want to deal with.

Maybe SNow Leopard was buggy, I cant tell. But the thing is that is not about a feature nor working. Is about not having the feature at all.

Lion does not have Spaces or Exposé, EVER. This thing is not buggy in Lion...is completly misssing from it.

At least they sort of fixed Exposé for Mountain Lion, but still no Spaces. thank god for Totalspaces.

Valkyre
Dec 14, 2012, 05:04 AM
The only issue i have with ML is the memory usage. This is indeed a stepback compared to Snow Leopard.

Lots of memory leaks flying around, huge amounts of ram spent and never returned and that whole "inactive memory" thing aint working according to specifications... inactive memory is supposed to be released when needed by the system, yet page outs begin to fly all over the place and your inactive memory sits there with 2-3gb smiling at you...

this is wrong.

I hope apple fixes this... in fact do we know if they will fix it or not? Have they said anything, can we expect anything?

cmChimera
Dec 14, 2012, 09:40 AM
If I don't the computer will not shut down - sticks at the gray screen. And yes, I have booted from my OS X ML flash drive to Repair Disk as well as Repair Permissions. No avail.



I've been using Macs since OS 7 in the early 1990s. Lion and Mountain Lion have been the least stable introductions since the switch to OS X (after its beta release). This is not just one computer, this is three - a 2012 Mac mini, a 2011 MacBook Pro and my 12-core Mac Pro. The Pro spontaneously shuts down on occasion, which never happened with Lion or Snow Leopard, and quite frequently my inbox in Mail disappears, requiring a quit and relaunch of Mail. What's remarkable is that I have the least amount of trouble with ML on my Hackintosh (and my MacBook Air).



It is my personal experience, but considering the hardware I'm running I shouldn't have this much trouble.



Of course not. Be realistic.



Oh, ok. ;)



Of course, it could be hardware related, particularly with the Mini since it is th 2012 model and shipped with ML. Poor engineering could explain it. It's obvious that Apple f#ck'd up the design that's causing all the USB3/bluetooth problems. But that doesn't explain my Mac Pro troubles - there is no new hardware in that computer that wasn't there when it arrived with Snow Leopard installed two years ago. No problems with SL. No problems with Lion. But spontaneous shut downs and jacked-up Mail with ML.



Please, tell me how to fix them. :rolleyes: I've been cracking open Macs for 20 years. I've replaced a hard drive in a G4 lampshade iMac, which was the most difficult Mac to work on, even requiring fresh heat sink compound on the cpu during the reassembly. I've even disassembled an Apple TV to put an eSATA port on it. I've replaced hard drives in the G4 MacBook Pros that essentially required a complete disassembly of the unit. I've done quite a bit with Macs and Systems 7, 8 and 9 and all versions of OS X. I have never had as much trouble as I have with Lion and Mountain Lion. Obviously you fit in to the IT/super genius category. Giving tech support over the internet is not exactly an ideal situation but there are numerous things that could be going wrong, and I don't mean to say that you don't have issues with your mac. But it's an assumption with little basis to say that's an inherent issue with Mountain Lion.

Maybe SNow Leopard was buggy, I cant tell. But the thing is that is not about a feature nor working. Is about not having the feature at all.

Lion does not have Spaces or Exposé, EVER. This thing is not buggy in Lion...is completly misssing from it.

At least they sort of fixed Exposé for Mountain Lion, but still no Spaces. thank god for Totalspaces. Technically, it does have spaces. You just don't like the new way Spaces works. Expose is also there.

vladster
Dec 14, 2012, 05:31 PM
Here’s what I see to be a fundamental ‘issue’ – Steve Jobs never believed in focus groups; he believed that people did not know what they want, so he just gave it to them.

I think during his last several years Steve Jobs turned Apple into boutique. And himself became couturie. He stayed with the product from very early stages, taking part in every stage of design, and then presenting the product, convincing people why they need it and why competition sucks. This approach was accepted. And, coincidentally or not, products were not bad. He's made the company very successful, but without him it's just not that company anymore.

Now bunch of guys that are scared to miss timelines more than anything else, sell us something with no DESIGNER behind the product. Designer who wouldn't let the product out until he sees the product as an accomplishment.

MikeAK
Dec 15, 2012, 11:42 AM
I think during his last several years Steve Jobs turned Apple into boutique. And himself became couturie. He stayed with the product from very early stages, taking part in every stage of design, and then presenting the product, convincing people why they need it and why competition sucks. This approach was accepted. And, coincidentally or not, products were not bad. He's made the company very successful, but without him it's just not that company anymore.

Now bunch of guys that are scared to miss timelines more than anything else, sell us something with no DESIGNER behind the product. Designer who wouldn't let the product out until he sees the product as an accomplishment.

Agreed. Apple is nowhere near the same company without Jobs. I know I don't have the same level of confidence in Apple that I once did. Maps would have never happened if Jobs were around. ML, to me, feels very buggy. That alone is enough to show people that things are different. It wasn't going to be an overnight change or shift but as time continues to go on we are really going to see the changes take shape. I fear for Apple's future unless they can find a person with the same dedication that Job's had who can run the ship.

wiz7dome
Dec 15, 2012, 01:37 PM
Agreed. Apple is nowhere near the same company without Jobs. I know I don't have the same level of confidence in Apple that I once did. Maps would have never happened if Jobs were around. ML, to me, feels very buggy. That alone is enough to show people that things are different. It wasn't going to be an overnight change or shift but as time continues to go on we are really going to see the changes take shape. I fear for Apple's future unless they can find a person with the same dedication that Job's had who can run the ship.

Agreed. It's been a long time since I've updated "without worry". Gone are the days of updating and seeing, trying or testing new features. Now you update and start a checklist of things that no longer work that used to work just fine.


Maybe that should be Apples new motto: It Used to Work!

Change for change sake is always risky, but the new method of 'addition by random subtraction' isn't a good way to keep people on the Mac platform.

MikeAK
Dec 15, 2012, 03:35 PM
Agreed. It's been a long time since I've updated "without worry". Gone are the days of updating and seeing, trying or testing new features. Now you update and start a checklist of things that no longer work that used to work just fine.


Maybe that should be Apples new motto: It Used to Work!

Change for change sake is always risky, but the new method of 'addition by random subtraction' isn't a good way to keep people on the Mac platform.

Very much agree... Software makes or breaks your end user experience no matter how well made or solid your hardware is. Apple won't be able to ride the coat tails of Jobs or the Apple brand name for ever. I pray they figure this out fast because a shift in perception has already taken place. Google and M$ have caught up faster then I think many of us even imagined. Agree or disagree, there are valid alternatives now available. There never was until now, imo.

Beeplance
Dec 17, 2012, 01:32 AM
Past...future...who cares? just install whatever operating system works for you. I drive a 96 Volkswagen GTI. That's a 16 year old car. Drives great and no car payment!! Am I living in the past? Nope. I'm living in the "whatever I want to do with my life" present. My life is my life, nobody else's. Don't listen to all the nay-sayers on this forum; just do whatever makes you roll. You. That's what matters, all that matters.

If everyone's like you, society would be a better place. Kudos!:D

vladster
Dec 17, 2012, 06:03 PM
Agreed. Apple is nowhere near the same company without Jobs. I know I don't have the same level of confidence in Apple that I once did. Maps would have never happened if Jobs were around. ML, to me, feels very buggy. That alone is enough to show people that things are different. It wasn't going to be an overnight change or shift but as time continues to go on we are really going to see the changes take shape. I fear for Apple's future unless they can find a person with the same dedication that Job's had who can run the ship.

New mac book pros with retina displays are clearly a distinct product line. "Classic" mbp is as different from retina laptops as Airs are different from mac book pro's. With 99% chance Jobs would've separated them and gave them some distinct sound simple and new name. Mac Cloud or something. This would boost people's perception, and innovation around the company.

Now people have to use several awkward words at tech spec level to clarify which version of mac book they are talking about. This is not simple, not clean. This is not designer's approach. Designer would always want not only create something new, but make it sound new, fresh and distinctive.

Tech spec level? Fine. Next time I need a laptop I'll just compare tech specs and get best bang for the buck, - whether it's Dell, Sony, HP or whatever. At this point I'm probably not willing to pay the premium over designer's product.

Yamcha
Dec 17, 2012, 07:25 PM
There is no doubt that Snow Leopard is faster then Lion & might even be faster then Mountain Lion.

But I don't think there is a significant difference between 10.6 & 10.8 I would say If the new features matter to you then do the upgrade.

As great as Snow Leopard is, eventually when you have to buy a new Mac, you'll be forced to use the latest software. So I think It's just a question of now or later.

Badagri
Dec 17, 2012, 11:54 PM
If everyone's like you, society would be a better place. Kudos!:D

Only nobody is trying to hijack/compromise his car. The year 2030 cars with USB slots/WiFi that can be infected with viruses.

ecoarena
Dec 21, 2012, 09:04 AM
Yes, as been pointed out, Apple is not the same company it once was. The final straw for me was bringing out a new IPad within 7 months of the previous encarnation with customers now buying the 'new' iPad without being clear of whether it's version 3 or 4. I have been loyal to Apple for 25 years, but now the company has simply alienated me with marketing ploys and products bordering on approaches used by the darkside. Alienating loyal customers is not what a smart company does. Big...big mistake. Such a shame.

Eco :(

thetacoman
Jan 7, 2013, 12:36 AM
I'm going through the process of backing up my laptop and doing the "upgrade" from SL to ML...but this thread is giving me second thoughts... This decision is really killing me!!

Eithanius
Jan 7, 2013, 02:31 AM
I'm going through the process of backing up my laptop and doing the "upgrade" from SL to ML...but this thread is giving me second thoughts... This decision is really killing me!!

DO NOT UPGRADE...!

If you insist, get a spare partition and upgrade from there and play around with it... Should you detest ML, you can always fallback and have SL untouched...

LeandrodaFL
Jan 7, 2013, 06:01 AM
I'm going through the process of backing up my laptop and doing the "upgrade" from SL to ML...but this thread is giving me second thoughts... This decision is really killing me!!

WTF? Why you gonna do that? Dont upgrade. The only reason to abondon SL and get ML is doing a hardware upgrade.

Paradoxally
Jan 7, 2013, 07:27 AM
I'm going through the process of backing up my laptop and doing the "upgrade" from SL to ML...but this thread is giving me second thoughts... This decision is really killing me!!

Don't do it, you'll likely regret it. I'm on ML right now and it's okay, but if I had time to downgrade (I will once mid-semester break comes up) I would.

Mac32
Jan 7, 2013, 08:11 AM
I'm a bit worried about the annual OS update cycle that Apple is proclaiming now. This gives them less time to fix older bugs, and less time to polish the next OS version. Hopefully they will releases more "Snow Leopard" updates, focusing solely on improved stability and speed/performance.

Paradoxally
Jan 7, 2013, 08:47 AM
I'm a bit worried about the annual OS update cycle that Apple is proclaiming now. This gives them less time to fix older bugs, and less time to polish the next OS version. Hopefully they will releases more "Snow Leopard" updates, focusing solely on improved stability and speed/performance.

I think this is bad move, it's bad enough that iOS is yearly because ios 6 is full of bugs compared to iOS 5, but on a desktop operating system, it gives very little time for an OS to mature.

LeandrodaFL
Jan 7, 2013, 10:57 AM
I actually believe they might keep Mountain Lion for 2 years...If you look at it, took 2 years from Leopard to Snow Leopard, then 2 from SL to Lion. Lion was to only one to have only 1 year life, and it was very welcome this way, as Mountain Lion fixed Exposé and many other things...

They might actually dont upgrade yet. I dont even think they have Cats name left, so they might go for OS XI

astrorider
Jan 7, 2013, 11:26 AM
I'm going through the process of backing up my laptop and doing the "upgrade" from SL to ML...but this thread is giving me second thoughts... This decision is really killing me!!

People have had difficulties with OS upgrades since there have been OS upgrades. Go to any computer help forum around the time of a new OS and you'll always find people who had a problem and now recommend not upgrading...that's what these forums are for!

Just make sure you have your backups, I'd recommend both a Time Machine backup and a clone with something like Carbon Copy Cloner, and pull the trigger. There's plenty to like in Lion/Mountain Lion, but there will always be some who have hiccups or don't like the changes. If you're one of them, you've got your backups so no worries.

sidewinder
Jan 7, 2013, 02:33 PM
Come on in, the water [Mountain Lion] is fine!

S-

LeandrodaFL
Jan 7, 2013, 07:14 PM
There's plenty to like in Lion/Mountain Lion, but there will always be some who have hiccups or don't like the changes. If you're one of them, you've got your backups so no worries.

But way pay for a new OS? It wont make the machine faster.

I would take this oportunity to buy a CURRENT Macintosh, with latest hardware....

astrorider
Jan 7, 2013, 07:28 PM
But way pay for a new OS? It wont make the machine faster.

I would take this oportunity to buy a CURRENT Macintosh, with latest hardware....

New OS's are more than just about making your machine faster...$19.99 is a whole lot cheaper than a new Mac, if you're after features in Lion/ML or compatibility with software that doesn't work with Snow Leopard.

dukebound85
Jan 7, 2013, 07:34 PM
I just don't want to do the same mistake I did installing Lion and going back to Snow Leopard.

FWIW, I like ML much more than Lion. I used to be a SL advocate to ML had been more than great for me

fattire357
Feb 8, 2013, 11:23 PM
I'm going through a similar issue right now.

Basically, since going to Lion, then Mountain Lion, my 2010 MBP has been a whole lot more buggy, and I haven't really used any of the new features as I just don't care about them. Snow leopard was awesome for me and I really don't care for Cloud features (to each their own)

Some of the bugs that are annoying: (that I don't recall when I first bought the MBP under snow leopard)

1. Insane battery drain during sleep. I mean, close the lid at 50%, go to sleep, in the morning its now at 14%. Sure, this could also be an incompatible app, but something is wrong here. Assuming its not a primary OS issue, iOS won't let apps rape the sleep mode like this, why can't OSX? I also don't remember this in Snow Leopard so I kinda think its the OS primarily and not secondarily.

2. Finder becomes unresponsive frequently - I think its related to Samba shares, but nontheless, I go through about 1-2 force closes of Finder per day, and at times it'll go into a total unresponsive loop requiring a reboot. Remember those days of rebooting a Windows machine all the time? That's what my Macbook has turned into.

3. Close the lid, then open it quickly - the machine will be totally, 100% unresponsive until you close it for 10+ seconds or hold down the power button for a hard reset. A little annoying, just takes up more of my day.

4. I think that's about it. Maybe a few others.

By the way, if you reply is just going to be, why post? Just do what you want? Please, stop now. There's a reason why Amazon.com has millions of reviews. Because sometimes people want to receive the opinions of others. At the very least maybe somebody will say, hey, I switched to Snow Leopard and none of my bugs were fixed, or they all were. So that's why I'm posting. Please, no flaming. Be a normal human being.

kemo
Feb 9, 2013, 02:53 AM
I have had installed both Lion and Mountain Lion couple of months ago, both of them was buggy as hell - not responding, sometimes really sluggish etc. I dont expect that kind of behavior from the computer that cost me 2K, I mean it's really different story with SL so why not stay with it? I have been trying all the versions on Late 2011 OCZ Vertex 3 SSD, 8GB RAM, and SL is the winner for a simple reason - IMHO it's the most stable, 99% bug free (nothing's 100% right?) OS from those 3 versions. So I'm staying with SL for now and maybe when the times come right and ML get's 8th version of update Ill upgrade, but I doubt it get so far with updates because of the pace Apple is rolling out the OSes i think ML will stop updating at about 5th version or so.

Well, I'm dont think Apple had learn from the mistakes they made on Lion, that were partially fixed on ML and will release "better" OS than SL was. This year it's gonna be ML with Siri and Maps. That's it. Again, nothing to worry about for upgrade IMHO...

Yeah and one more think I forgot to say - Give us Expose + Spaces back!:cool:

----------

I'm going through the process of backing up my laptop and doing the "upgrade" from SL to ML...but this thread is giving me second thoughts... This decision is really killing me!!

I tell you what, Backup everything and do upgrade. Keep the old backup safe for about a month and I'm almost sure you will revert back to SL before that time. I have been through the process couple of times and may I try it again with 10.8.3... ML is just not "finished" yet IMHO.

----------

WTF? Why you gonna do that? Dont upgrade. The only reason to abondon SL and get ML is doing a hardware upgrade.

I believe that's right and that's why I bought latest possible HW for SL, which I believe is late 2011 MBP? And until my laptop is going to breathe I hope Apple is gonna make SL like OS (stable, fast, bug free) which all the current SL users willing to accept and get the new HW for it.

ZVH
Feb 9, 2013, 03:42 AM
Speaking of bugs, try this one:

Type

"File:[slash][slash][slash]"

In the above, don't use the quotes, and replace [slash] with the actual slash (/) character. Why didn't I type it like that above? It will crash your application. On entering the third slash character your application will either lock up with a spinning beach ball or die completely. To try it out safely, open up TextEdit and type it in and it will die.

I use Mountain Lion as my main system, but I've got a secondary system with SL on it and every time I boot it, I look at it and say to myself "Wow. This looks so much better."

Why the gray scroll bars, why the gray icons in finder windows and mail, and why the change in saving file options. These, IMHO aren't improvements, more like change for the sake of change. What's the next upgrade, Apple? Black and White displays? I'm not interested in having my computer look and act like an iPhone or iPad. ML is also a huge resource hog. I used to get by on 2G of RAM with no problems, but even running basic stuff I had to upgrade to 4G to quit getting page outs and delays. I have problems with APPLE applications like iWeb and iPhoto crashing on me, and NO, I'm not buying newer version (iWeb is dead already anyway). Overall, I'd say this is not an improvement.

Mountain Lion doesn't bug me enough to hate it or move back to SL, but I can surely see why some people don't want to change. Especially if they're using older application or some PPC apps.

verbcrunch
Feb 11, 2013, 08:03 AM
I've enjoyed reading this thread. I went dual boot so I could try Mountain Lion. The ONE thing I like about mountain lion is the notifications when an email arrives. But last night I got Growl mail to work on Snow Leopard, so am now officially reverting back. I'll keep the ML boot disk for when I need to run software incompatible with SL.

Specific things I hate about ML that are not issues with Snow Leopard:

• Mail crashes when I hit "reply all".

• In search: can't specify "File Name" only. Filters are not available. Much more difficult to locate files in ML than SL when searching.

• No native option for "displays" in menu bar. When selecting "mirror displays" ML defaults to 800x600 and requires selecting resolution every time. SL remembers last used setting.

• iTunes issues: metadata often not saved, so changes made to library disappear.

• QuicKeys is very buggy in ML.

• Safari's combined search/URL makes it difficult to type in IP addresses or specific URLs - browser thinks you're searching.

• Log in items don't stay logged in.

• Inexplicable hardware issues: on non system drives - long delays while disk spins up (both internal and firewire). USB and Bluetooth peripherals work intermittently.

Basically I can work faster and more reliably in SL than ML. I know QuicKeys and the log in items are issues with software that are not yet versioned for ML ("Gatekeeper" friendly in particular). My ML drive is an SSD on a PCI card in a MacPro, that could have something to do with some the hardware problems I'm having.

For what I do (audio production) Snow Leopard is far superior to Mountain Lion.

Mac32
Feb 11, 2013, 08:27 AM
Safari is a bit buggy, and will randomly quit when you open a new webpage by using secondary click.

MJL
Feb 11, 2013, 09:20 PM
No matter what I tried when I want to connect my Mac mini 2010 server to the internet in ML I have to use a wireless connection - wired just does not work. And even then I have lost the network connection on occasions. No problems what so ever with either Lion or Snow Leopard.

Badagri
Feb 12, 2013, 02:48 PM
Safari is a bit buggy, and will randomly quit when you open a new webpage by using secondary click.

I've never had that. Even still, it's pretty rare for Safari to crash/quit on me. It's been so long since I can remember.

cmChimera
Feb 12, 2013, 10:48 PM
I've enjoyed reading this thread. I went dual boot so I could try Mountain Lion. The ONE thing I like about mountain lion is the notifications when an email arrives. But last night I got Growl mail to work on Snow Leopard, so am now officially reverting back. I'll keep the ML boot disk for when I need to run software incompatible with SL.

Specific things I hate about ML that are not issues with Snow Leopard:

• Mail crashes when I hit "reply all".

• In search: can't specify "File Name" only. Filters are not available. Much more difficult to locate files in ML than SL when searching.

• No native option for "displays" in menu bar. When selecting "mirror displays" ML defaults to 800x600 and requires selecting resolution every time. SL remembers last used setting.

• iTunes issues: metadata often not saved, so changes made to library disappear.

• QuicKeys is very buggy in ML.

• Safari's combined search/URL makes it difficult to type in IP addresses or specific URLs - browser thinks you're searching.

• Log in items don't stay logged in.

• Inexplicable hardware issues: on non system drives - long delays while disk spins up (both internal and firewire). USB and Bluetooth peripherals work intermittently.

Basically I can work faster and more reliably in SL than ML. I know QuicKeys and the log in items are issues with software that are not yet versioned for ML ("Gatekeeper" friendly in particular). My ML drive is an SSD on a PCI card in a MacPro, that could have something to do with some the hardware problems I'm having.

For what I do (audio production) Snow Leopard is far superior to Mountain Lion.

I have absolutely none of those issues.

sidewinder
Feb 12, 2013, 11:47 PM
I have absolutely none of those issues.

Neither do I....

S-

Joseph Farrugia
Feb 13, 2013, 06:29 AM
There is nothing wrong with Mountain Lion other than changes that people just don't want to deal with.

That sweeping statement is disrespectful to experienced & power users whose workflows are hindered by useless bugs in Lion/ML. A quick google search will be an eye-opener for you.

Zwhaler
Feb 13, 2013, 01:49 PM
I stuck with SL until recently. I switched to ML and it is nice. Lion wasn't very good IMO and I'm glad I waited to ML it feels like an upgrade that wasn't a downgrade.

jasimon9
Feb 13, 2013, 08:37 PM
My tagline is inspired by Lion: "I will gladly trade you 250 new features, for 1 'It just works!'

A lot of the issues posted here with Lion/ML don't affect me. But I have my own list of pet peeves that started with Lion, so I am going to post my list:

1. Mail header pane columnar display I cannot use the 3-vertical panes because the middle pane has become useless. My workflow requires the columnar display for the headers.

I would think that it would be relatively easy to allow an option to use the three-panel view but to have the middle panel in the columnar display.

Back on SL I used to use a Mail addon call Letterbox. However, that no longer works in Lion and ML. So I am forced back into the Classic view, which is vastly inferior, except that it provides the "must have" columnar display of the headers.

2. ML hang after Lion Every time when booting into Lion on an external drive, then reboot back into Mountain Lion, the Mountain Lion hangs before the Dock and Menu Items at the top right are displayed. There is a spinning beach ball, which remains until I power cycle the machine.

The second boot up usually works, although one time I tried an SMC/NVRAM reset. That seems to not be necessary however; just the boot/power-cycle/reboot.

3. ML Dashboard calendar widget bug In ML the Dashboard calendar widget has lost the ability to change the day to other days. You can still navigate to different months, but clicking on any day has no effect.

This is a useful function for me, to quickly be able to see what I have scheduled on any day. Now I have to open iCal, which is annoying.

Addendum: I loaded Lion, and SL, and the noted this feature was absent there too. Some I am wondering if it has been lost since Leopard. Or am I just remembering a feature that never existed?

4. Sounds controlled by rules randomly delayed I finally found a relatively complex workaround that works well for me. The problem is coreaudiod, which after a sleep will only trigger its sound some random time after it should. The workaround is having a script run after each wake from sleep to force-quit coreaudiod.

5. Long delay when using file open/save dialog This occurs because the system is waiting for my external drive to spin up its disk. This was not a problem on SL because back then the logic was "see if I need to look on an external disk, then if so spin it up." Now the logic is "better spin up the disk, and only then look to see if that disk is needed."

6. Use of root account. Found some obscure issues when a very rare need for root access occurs. With SL "it just worked." But in ML, a fast-user-switch into a different user account, then enabling root, when trying to get back to log out and go back to the usual account, you get odd results where you cannot logout of the other account. Instead, your main account gets logged out! It is very weird but I have reproduced it repeatedly, even while on the phone with Apple Care.

I have a dozen or so other items, but they are too obscure and probably more app-related that OS X related.

corvus32
Feb 17, 2013, 10:22 AM
I've been a steady Mac user since the OS 9 days, but this past week marks the first time I've come back to using OS X daily for almost a year. It's also the first time I installed and used ML although I briefly dabbled with 10.7 last summer. So, I feel I'm coming into the post Snow Leopard era with a clear and open mind.

Granted it's only been a week and I'm not using my 2010 MBP for heavy tasks, but things seem fine. Battery life is good, nothing has crashed (so far), and I'm generally pleased with tah Snappiness™.

I guess what I like most is not any of the new features per say, but the simple fact my 2.5 year old MBP with lowly C2D processor now has a new lease on life. Though I should note I upgraded the MBP's hard drive to an SSD, the memory to 8GB, and went with a clean install of ML.

If 10.8.3 promises to bring further improvements, that will be just icing on the cake for me. :)

manamana
Feb 17, 2013, 09:37 PM
I upgraded to Mountain Lion and realized that my LaCie eSATA PCI-Express Card (4 ports) product #713113 is no longer recognized. I haven't been able to find any updated drivers yet.

any suggestions??

macpro 4,1 2 x 2.66 quad core, 12 gb ram, ati radon 4870.

bigsnowdog
Feb 22, 2013, 12:23 PM
Every time I think I want to upgrade to ML, I watch the video of it on the Apple site:

http://www.apple.com/osx/

and decide I am VERY happy with SL.
:)

I just watched that video and see nothing I would value, except possibly the speech feature. Then from what I read you really want Dragon Dictate, that is assuming it will work for you.

Mac user since 1985. Currently on Mac Pro with SL.

daneoni
Feb 25, 2013, 07:44 AM
Lol at all the Snow Leopard faithful, lets see how long you manage to hold out. You're already missing out on iCloud, and very soon software will stop being written/updated for 10.6.8.

I wonder what will happen to your dedication then.

MrEcted
Feb 26, 2013, 10:37 AM
Lol at all the Snow Leopard faithful, lets see how long you manage to hold out. You're already missing out on iCloud, and very soon software will stop being written/updated for 10.6.8.

I wonder what will happen to your dedication then.

It depends. I'm becoming more and more attracted to Windows. 7 is great, 8 takes some getting used to, but I'm really starting to dig it. If Windows continues to improve and Mac OS continues to stagnate, become more dumbed down and IOS-like, then I'll make the complete switch back to Windows.

The MBP I have now just might be the first and last Mac I'll ever own, it depends on the direction Apple takes. So far, I'm not liking it.

sidewinder
Feb 26, 2013, 11:07 AM
It depends. I'm becoming more and more attracted to Windows. 7 is great, 8 takes some getting used to, but I'm really starting to dig it. If Windows continues to improve and Mac OS continues to stagnate, become more dumbed down and IOS-like, then I'll make the complete switch back to Windows.

The MBP I have now just might be the first and last Mac I'll ever own, it depends on the direction Apple takes. So far, I'm not liking it.

The OS has not been "dumbed down". I can do everything in OS X 10.8.2 that I was able to do in 10.6.8 plus more.

Please buy a PC and switch to Windows so we don't have to see ridiculous comments like this....

S-

Krazy Bill
Feb 26, 2013, 11:46 AM
I can do everything in OS X 10.8.2 that I was able to do in 10.6.8 plus more.Oh my. You've opened up a big bag of hurt with this one. :) In all fairness, you should be given time to amend your post before people start pointing out the productivity differences.

Sky Blue
Feb 26, 2013, 11:51 AM
I can do everything in OS X 10.8.2 that I was able to do in 10.6.8 plus more.


Agreed.

bigsnowdog
Feb 26, 2013, 11:57 AM
The OS has not been "dumbed down". I can do everything in OS X 10.8.2 that I was able to do in 10.6.8 plus more.

Please buy a PC and switch to Windows so we don't have to see ridiculous comments like this....

S-

Dumbed down in this context means the look of the user interface. Windows has been doing that also. The evolution toward the lots of big icons look.

It is an attempt to lure in more customers with no computer experience. Understandable, but regrettable in terms of some of the effects.

MrEcted
Feb 26, 2013, 12:58 PM
The OS has not been "dumbed down". I can do everything in OS X 10.8.2 that I was able to do in 10.6.8 plus more.

Please buy a PC and switch to Windows so we don't have to see ridiculous comments like this....

S-

Well, aren't you the optimistic one, assuming that I'll stop posting ridiculous comments here just because I switched back to Windows!

Eithanius
Feb 26, 2013, 11:46 PM
Oh my. You've opened up a big bag of hurt with this one. :) In all fairness, you should be given time to amend your post before people start pointing out the productivity differences.

He has already opened up a big bag of hurt by using a PROFESSIONAL workstation running a "DUMBED-DOWN" OS... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

TYMUL
Feb 27, 2013, 07:06 AM
Safari is a bit buggy, and will randomly quit when you open a new webpage by using secondary click.

I get this daily, its so frustrating!

Sky Blue
Feb 27, 2013, 08:11 AM
Dumbed down in this context means the look of the user interface. Windows has been doing that also. The evolution toward the lots of big icons look.

It is an attempt to lure in more customers with no computer experience. Understandable, but regrettable in terms of some of the effects.

Such as? I thought people complained that the traffic lights were too small and the scroll bars were too small?

To me, Lion/Mountain Lion is a lot more refined than SL.

Joseph Farrugia
Mar 1, 2013, 03:53 PM
Lol at all the Snow Leopard faithful, lets see how long you manage to hold out. You're already missing out on iCloud, and very soon software will stop being written/updated for 10.6.8.

I wonder what will happen to your dedication then.

I'm calling FUD on this one, there is no reason whatsoever for software written for OS X 10.8 not to be 100% compatible on OS X 10.6.8. None whatsoever.

As for iCloud, the alternatives are so much better that it has been a moot point for quite a bit of time now.

bigsnowdog
Mar 1, 2013, 06:04 PM
I'm calling FUD on this one, there is no reason whatsoever for software written for OS X 10.8 not to be 100% compatible on OS X 10.6.8. None whatsoever.

As for iCloud, the alternatives are so much better that it has been a moot point for quite a bit of time now.

From all I understand the current versions of Adobe applications photoshop, illustrator, indesign that run on Mountain Lion will not run on Snow Leopard.

Eithanius
Mar 1, 2013, 08:52 PM
From all I understand the current versions of Adobe applications photoshop, illustrator, indesign that run on Mountain Lion will not run on Snow Leopard.

Has Adobe released CS7 that requires Lion at the bare minimum...? :confused::confused:

I'm using Photoshop CS6 on Snow Leopard without problem... :eek:

SlCKB0Y
Mar 1, 2013, 09:14 PM
6. Use of root account. Found some obscure issues when a very rare need for root access occurs. With SL "it just worked."

What do you need to run as root from the GUI which can't easily be done with su/sudo from the terminal?

You can run GUI apps from the terminal using the "open" command. To run as root just "su" prior to doing this:
http://osxdaily.com/2007/02/01/how-to-launch-gui-applications-from-the-terminal/

If the need still exists, have you tried Xtrafinder? It is a finder extension that along with a lot of very cool stuff like tabs and dual pane will allow you to "launch as root" in your current user login.

It's completely free and I can't recommend it enough.
http://www.trankynam.com/xtrafinder/

SlCKB0Y
Mar 1, 2013, 09:30 PM
I've been using Macs since OS 7 in the early 1990s. Lion and Mountain Lion have been the least stable introductions since the switch to OS X (after its beta release).

Just so I have this straight, you're claiming that both Lion and Mountain Lion are less stable than 10.0 and 10.1?

Bye bye credibility...
:rolleyes:

bigsnowdog
Mar 1, 2013, 10:03 PM
Has Adobe released CS7 that requires Lion at the bare minimum...? :confused::confused:

I'm using Photoshop CS6 on Snow Leopard without problem... :eek:

OK, thank you, I got that backward. CS5 won't run on Mountain Lion.

jasimon9
Mar 1, 2013, 10:19 PM
What do you need to run as root from the GUI which can't easily be done with su/sudo from the terminal?

You can run GUI apps from the terminal using the "open" command. To run as root just "su" prior to doing this:
http://osxdaily.com/2007/02/01/how-to-launch-gui-applications-from-the-terminal/

If the need still exists, have you tried Xtrafinder? It is a finder extension that along with a lot of very cool stuff like tabs and dual pane will allow you to "launch as root" in your current user login.

It's completely free and I can't recommend it enough.
http://www.trankynam.com/xtrafinder/

When I said "obscure", it was not your normal issue. It was after a perfect storm of failure in Time Machine backup of FileVault account (not FileVault2 in which this would not have occurred) and not having logged out recently from the account so that it would be backed up. What happened was the entire account was lost on my Mac, plus completely gone from the Time Machine too. Major tale of woe.

In any case, the root access was used in a special account, to try to go into terminal and look around in the raw Time Machine volumes, to see if there was any trace of the lost account that might show up to root while not otherwise. This was all done, btw, while on the phone with AppleCare.

Normally root access is not needed, I agree. Probably have not used it since then on my Mac.

However, I do need root access frequently on my company's FreeBSD servers for routine workflows. In fact as I type this, I am killing time waiting for just one of those procedures. But in that world, sudo is heavily frowned upon by our sysadmins. And again it is a different world. Just mentioned this part to point out I am not a stranger to root.

tkermit
Mar 2, 2013, 08:45 AM
I'm calling FUD on this one, there is no reason whatsoever for software written for OS X 10.8 not to be 100% compatible on OS X 10.6.8. None whatsoever.

Wishing for a thing does not make it so. What the other poster described is already fact for quite a few software products some of us are trying to run. Granted, most of them are smaller utility type apps at this point, but still.
Just the other day I was planning to install EventScripts (http://www.mousedown.net/mouseware/EventScripts.html) on my old Macbook that's used as a media server. Alas, no dice. 10.7-only.

http://f.cl.ly/items/433l1P0Z0t0w023z3R3t/shot.png

bigsnowdog
Mar 2, 2013, 10:07 AM
Wishing for a thing does not make it so. What the other poster described is already fact for quite a few software products some of us are trying to run. Granted, most of them are smaller utility type apps at this point, but still.
Just the other day I was planning to install EventScripts (http://www.mousedown.net/mouseware/EventScripts.html) on my old Macbook that's used as a media server. Alas, no dice. 10.7-only.

Image (http://f.cl.ly/items/433l1P0Z0t0w023z3R3t/shot.png)

Indications of problems with Adobe products, for example, here:

http://roaringapps.com/apps:table

SanJacinto
Mar 2, 2013, 12:30 PM
Wishing for a thing does not make it so. What the other poster described is already fact for quite a few software products some of us are trying to run. Granted, most of them are smaller utility type apps at this point, but still.
Just the other day I was planning to install EventScripts (http://www.mousedown.net/mouseware/EventScripts.html) on my old Macbook that's used as a media server. Alas, no dice. 10.7-only.

Image (http://f.cl.ly/items/433l1P0Z0t0w023z3R3t/shot.png)

I really love Apple and I am a real Macintosh addict, but what I don't get, that in the past you could use "old" software as long as you wanted.
But today I have to save every app in advance. Apple could easily offer app versions which are compatible for example with 10.6 (and in the future 10.7 and so on).

We don't talk about a system that is 5+ years old. Just 1 month after the release of OS X 10.7 the first programs didn't worked.
If I had purchased iWork and my Mac crashes tomorrow (without an App-Backup), I have to buy a new OS to re-download iWork.

I don't think that 10.7 and 10.8 are that bad compared to 10.6, but at the moment I don't need them. I need my bullet proved system, no iCloud, Expose and Front Row.
So in the case that my system dies suddenly, I don't want to be forced to buy a new OS. I safe all my apps, but sometimes you don't have a backup and than it would be nice to have a Plan B -> running version of the app waiting in the App Store.

PS: Same is true for iOS. I can't use an older Skype or whatever version of an app? I am forced to update.
That's not ok.

Dewdman42
Mar 2, 2013, 12:39 PM
count me as another that will stay on SL for as long as possible. Yes, eventually I will be forced to upgrade, but we are still a long ways off from that day and I am hoping actually that I will not have to upgrade until I actually upgrade my computer. I have tried Lion and ML, and both were complete dissapointments. I see no reason to upgrade. There are work arounds to get iCal working iCloud, yea ok maybe a few little features of ML would be nice, but "more" things lost from SL that I don't want to live without, not to mention that I noticed worse performance and had network and other problems immediately.

No.... There is no reason.

By the way I'm still running XP on my crusty old PC too hahaha

canadianpj
Mar 2, 2013, 12:45 PM
You should continue to live in the past.....

S-

Sorry but he has a point. Most everything people dislike in Lion, feature wise, is till there in Mountain Lion and going forward. So, yes, enjoy living in the past.

Badagri
Mar 2, 2013, 02:07 PM
OK, thank you, I got that backward. CS5 won't run on Mountain Lion.

It doesn't? I even have CS4 running on it.

bigsnowdog
Mar 2, 2013, 03:15 PM
It doesn't? I even have CS4 running on it.

http://roaringapps.com/apps:table says there are issues.


https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4143305?start=0&tstart=0

MichaelLAX
Mar 2, 2013, 03:30 PM
CS2 which Adobe now allows to be downloaded for free (http://www.adobe.com/downloads/cs2_downloads/index.html) will run on Snow Leopard

CS2 will also run in Snow Leopard (with Rosetta) installed into Parallels (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1365439) in Lion or Mt. Lion

[click on image to enlarge]

sidewinder
Mar 2, 2013, 03:31 PM
Sorry but he has a point. Most everything people dislike in Lion, feature wise, is till there in Mountain Lion and going forward. So, yes, enjoy living in the past.

What "people"? The most vocal people are the people that complain. Yes, some "people" don't like a variety of new or changed features. Do those people make up a majority? Highly unlikely.....

S-

bigsnowdog
Mar 2, 2013, 03:37 PM
CS2 which Adobe now allows to be downloaded for free (http://www.adobe.com/downloads/cs2_downloads/index.html) will run on Snow Leopard

CS2 will also run in Snow Leopard (with Rosetta) installed into Parallels (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1365439) in Lion or Mt. Lion

[click on image to enlarge]

After having purchased CS5 I am not inclined to go backward to CS2.

Badagri
Mar 2, 2013, 07:14 PM
http://roaringapps.com/apps:table says there are issues.


https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4143305?start=0&tstart=0

http://roaringapps.com/app:4956

Issues with creating image previews when saving to a network volume. Can't copy-paste objects from Illustrator CS5.

Can't say it's a big problem.


CS4 has green ticks.

http://roaringapps.com/app:5187

bigsnowdog
Mar 2, 2013, 07:53 PM
http://roaringapps.com/app:4956

Issues with creating image previews when saving to a network volume. Can't copy-paste objects from Illustrator CS5.

Can't say it's a big problem.


CS4 has green ticks.

http://roaringapps.com/app:5187

Regarding CS5, that still leaves InDesign, Photoshop, and Acrobat. I believe most or all are listed as problematic.

My concern is that I consider running the newest version of Dragon Dictate, which requires Mountain Lion. I can't afford the newest version of the CS. I don't want to install Mountain Lion and not be able to run my Adobe applications.

WSR
Mar 2, 2013, 10:24 PM
What "people"? The most vocal people are the people that complain. Yes, some "people" don't like a variety of new or changed features. Do those people make up a majority? Highly unlikely.....

S-

The people that complained and got Apple to return some of the functions of SL, like:
Some of Expose's features,
"Save As..." at least as a key stroke,
etc.

But, the job isn't complete. We still need:
The choice of a grid based Spaces,
A Full-Screen mode that doesn't make a 2nd monitor nearly useless,
"Save As..." fully returned,
etc.

Newer doesn't mean better for all, and just accepting what Apple gives us doesn't make things better.

z06gal
Mar 2, 2013, 11:19 PM
I am very new to OS-X so I can't comment on comparisons but have just one question...why no workspace switcher on the dock? I have been running Linux for years and use the compiz workspace switcher on my Linux machine. I am very happy with everything else though although I do have a lot to learn ;)

WSR
Mar 3, 2013, 12:53 AM
I am very new to OS-X so I can't comment on comparisons but have just one question...why no workspace switcher on the dock? I have been running Linux for years and use the compiz workspace switcher on my Linux machine. I am very happy with everything else though although I do have a lot to learn ;)

Macs have never had a Spaces switcher in the Dock, but in Snow Leopard(10.6) there was a switcher in the menu bar which was apparently removed in Lion(10.7).

If you're interested, the following video I found shows what Spaces is like in Snow leopard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJPJCeDu8xs

Platskies
Mar 3, 2013, 03:13 AM
I'm calling FUD on this one, there is no reason whatsoever for software written for OS X 10.8 not to be 100% compatible on OS X 10.6.8. None whatsoever.

As for iCloud, the alternatives are so much better that it has been a moot point for quite a bit of time now.
It's not just all of the features on Apple's website you hear about, it's the new developer APIs that make certain things easier. For example, GLKit (introduced in 10.7) makes it easier to write games and other 3D software.

Supporting applications on lower platforms consequently takes more work, and depending on the target user-base, may not be necessary.

Cave Man
Mar 3, 2013, 08:08 AM
Just so I have this straight, you're claiming that both Lion and Mountain Lion are less stable than 10.0 and 10.1?

Bye bye credibility...
:rolleyes:

Roll your "eyes" all you want. Since you selectively quoted what I referred to, the credibility issue rests with you. I've never had a Mac just shut down while running, except with ML. That is the ultimate in instability. The software was using all 12 cores/24 virtual cores of my Mac Pro, moving through 400 gigabases of DNA sequences to identify genes (which takes a couple of months to complete) and the computer shut down after about an hour. Restarted, relaunched the software and it happened again within an hour. I had to limit the software to 12 virtual cores for the computer to be stable which, of course, nearly doubled the amount of time required to go through those 400 gigabases. This didn't occur in Snow Leopard or Lion. Whether it's the software or ML doesn't matter - ML should have trapped and isolated the error; it sure as hell shouldn't just shut down the computer. I once had a Mac Mini spontaneously restart, but that was due to a faulty SO-DIMM from OWC. Once it was replaced, all was good. That was either Leopard or Snow Leopard.

z06gal
Mar 3, 2013, 11:01 AM
Macs have never had a Spaces switcher in the Dock, but in Snow Leopard(10.6) there was a switcher in the menu bar which was apparently removed in Lion(10.7).

If you're interested, the following video I found shows what Spaces is like in Snow leopard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJPJCeDu8xs


Thanks! I wonder why Apple went away from this?

Krazy Bill
Mar 3, 2013, 11:43 AM
Thanks! I wonder why Apple went away from this?Because it was too complicated for the iOS-induced intellect.

MichaelLAX
Mar 3, 2013, 12:24 PM
Need access to Rosetta in Lion or Mountain Lion?

Apple is now selling Snow Leopard Server for $19.99 + sales tax & shipping; call 1.800.MYAPPLE (1.800.692.7753).

Snow Leopard Server will easily install into Parallels or VMWare Fusion.

z06gal
Mar 3, 2013, 12:50 PM
Because it was too complicated for the iOS-induced intellect.

Ugh. I wish they would bring it back. That is much better than the way it is now in my opinion ;)